mitnick-digest Sunday, December 6 1998 Volume 01 : Number 212 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 5 Dec 1998 01:28:03 EST From: Phoenxknt@aol.com Subject: [mitnick] Agh, I misunderstood the trial reset. (Yes, i'm on at someone elses house) Sorry i thought that meant they had set the absolute end trial to April 20, not that it starts then. My bad. - -AM ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 05 Dec 1998 14:33:57 +1000 From: Reeza! Subject: [Re: [mitnick] Doug Thomas/Mitnick article] At 10:10 PM 12/4/98 MST, Maras Erlenic wrote: >i couldnt agree more. one of the biggest injustices of the mitnick trial is >how long he's been in jail without trial. then his attourney goes off and >requests MORE time!!! i dont get it. kevin lost again; there was no victory as >his lawyer is saying... > Call it "damage control", a choice between the lesser of two evils. If it were you in jail, would you prefer to go to trial unprepared, or spend a few more days in jail while you put together an airtight case??? DH Key available on request "In the land of the blind the one-eyed is king, until the others find out he can see. Then they kill him" -- stolen from another cypherpunk sig ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 5 Dec 1998 02:35:28 -0500 (EST) From: ksandre Subject: Re: [mitnick] Reporters/quiet On Sat, 5 Dec 1998, kerry wrote: > What the judge said was along these lines (probably slightly paraphrased): > > "I don't know what Mr. Mitnick's friends have been up to, but someone from > North Carolina has requested my financial disclosure reports. Whoever this > Kerry (my last name) is, why would someone from NC be requesting my financial Did the impending or actual FBI investigation of you referred to by Emmanuel earlier come before of after you requested the Judge's financial records? Or after you took over responsibility for maintaining the Mitnick WEB Site? ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 05 Dec 1998 14:57:14 +0000 From: kerry Subject: [mitnick] Response documents The latest documents are now on kevin's site: http://www.kevinmitnick.com/120298defreply.html http://www.kevinmitnick.com/120298randecl.html They address all the points involving government misconduct and they do it very well. Why on earth did the judge make that comment that she didn't like the way this was written? *********************************************************** F R E E K E V I N http://www.KevinMitnick.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 5 Dec 1998 11:06:03 -0500 (EST) From: Macki Subject: [mitnick] plea settlement If there was ever any doubt who's idea it was to try to settle the case and why... Check out part 12 of Randolph's 12/2 Declaration: > Mindful of the Court's numerous admonitions regarding the > > expenditure of CJA funds in the defense of this case, I have pursued a > > defense strategy which I believed in good faith would result in an > > efficient resolution of this case without compromising the quality of > > Mr. Mitnick's representation. To this end, between August, 1998, and > > October, 1998, my efforts in this case were dedicated primarily > > towards negotiating a reasonable plea agreement. That's what you get when your attorney is an employee of a (kangaroo) court. I wonder how much time Randolph spent trying to talk Kevin into giving up. --Macki ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 05 Dec 1998 12:07:27 -0600 From: Jaeger Subject: Re: [mitnick] Chapters.... goto www.2600.com and then goto the meetings page... they have all of the meetings listed in alphabetical order by location Jaeger > Um.. this is going to sound really stupid but where are the 2600 > meetings held > at? ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 05 Dec 1998 12:29:57 -0600 From: Jaeger Subject: Re: [mitnick] bail good call.. btw, is this a state or a federal case? if it is state, then we really can't do anything about it unless we live in CA... the judge could be impeached, but that's not very likely... and the USSC has shown itself to be uncaring about the whole situation... any suggestions? I just hope that the movie causes enough public uproar that someone with the ability aforementioned will take notice Jaeger > >From today's paper: > > "An 18-year-old man charged yesterday with fatally shooting his > parents, > grandfather, brother, and his brother's girlfriend confessed and said > he > wasn't getting along with his father, the prosecutor said. Seth > Privacky > of Muskegon, Michigan said he shot the five in their heads at close > range, > execution-style. His classmate, 18-year-old Steven Wallace, was > arraigned > on the same charges. Both were jailed on $5 million bail." > > In all likelihood, if they come up with 10% of that amount in cash, > they > can walk out of jail for $500,000. If they demand the full amount (and > the > only time I've seen that happen is with the Bernie S. case), they > would have > to pay the full $5 million. > > If Bill Gates put up every penny he had for Kevin, they still wouldn't > > let him out of prison. Not for any amount of money. > > You can kill five people in cold blood and get bail. You copy files > from > a large corporation and you don't even get a hearing. I really want to > > hear the logic behind this. > > emmanuel ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 05 Dec 1998 12:33:23 -0600 From: Jaeger Subject: Re: [mitnick] wednesday's hearing she knows that she's out to get Kevin, so I guess she's convinced that we're the same way regarding her... I don't know about everyone else, but I could care less about Judge Pfaelzer... I just want Kevin to get his fair trial like any other US citizen should get... Jaeger > News from Wednesday's court hearing in Los Angeles: > > ----- > > In a somewhat bizarre display on Wednesday, Judge Pfaelzer directed an > > emotional outburst at Mitnick after learning that a 2600 staffperson > had > requested her publicly available financial disclosure statements. > She demanded to know who "that person from North Carolina" was and > whether or not they were part of the defense team. The person in > question > is Kerry, who has been diligently maintaining the kevinmitnick.com > site > and now is preparing for a possible FBI investigation because of her > efforts. > > These documents are available to the public; anyone can request them, > as long > as they have the request notarized. The purpose of having financial > disclosure > documents for judiciaries is so that the public can ensure that judges > > don't have financial biases which may affect their decisions. Judges > know > when they turn their reports in every year that people will be able to > see > them. As public officials, they realize people have a right to know > which > companies they own stock in. > > This is precisely what Kerry was trying to accomplish - simply > ensuring > that the judge does not have any financial holdings that might give > her a > bias in this case. Journalists, legal researchers, and ordinary > people > request these reports without a problem. > > Does the judge think that everyone associated with Kevin is out to get > her? > > ----- > > Another hearing is scheduled for Thursday where the issues of delaying > the > trial and not having access to the evidence are expected to be > addressed. > > emmanuel ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 05 Dec 1998 12:36:38 -0600 From: Jaeger Subject: Re: [mitnick] lamers on the loose just curious, but how does one go about getting an email address in the fbi.gov domain? the guy who put up the page at http://www.geocities.com/Tokyo/4613/index2.htmlhas the address killkevin@fbi.gov hmmm.... Jaeger > http://www.sinnerz.com/fh > > Some 'Kill Kevin' sites put up in protest by some dork. I guess I > could go > off on it but why bother. You'll think what I am thinking after you > see > them... > > regards, > Bronc Buster ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 05 Dec 1998 13:50:32 -0500 From: Jack Wiley Subject: Re: [mitnick] lamers on the loose its not a real e-mail address, i have tried it. Its suppost to scare us. - ---------- > From: Jaeger > To: mitnick@2600.com > Subject: Re: [mitnick] lamers on the loose > Date: Sat, 05 Dec 1998 12:36:38 -0600 > >just curious, but how does one go about getting an email address in the >fbi.gov domain? > >the guy who put up the page at > >http://www.geocities.com/Tokyo/4613/index2.htmlhas the address >killkevin@fbi.gov >hmmm.... > >Jaeger > >> http://www.sinnerz.com/fh >> >> Some 'Kill Kevin' sites put up in protest by some dork. I guess I >> could go >> off on it but why bother. You'll think what I am thinking after you >> see >> them... >> >> regards, >> Bronc Buster > > > ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 5 Dec 1998 14:50:01 EST From: SkyFireZ@aol.com Subject: Re: [mitnick] lamers on the loose In a message dated 12/5/98 10:46:15 AM Pacific Standard Time, Jaeger@hempseed.com writes: << just curious, but how does one go about getting an email address in the fbi.gov domain? >> You can e-mail this kid at: Kemical2@geocities.com AcidRayne ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 05 Dec 1998 15:31:46 PST From: "TelePhreak -" Subject: [mitnick] New Email Address this is my new email address (telephrk@hotmail.com) i had to many problems with acidhak@hotmail.com, just so no one thinks someone is imatating me. ---------------------FREE KEVIN - -TelePhreak of The Phone Rangers Email: telephrk@hotmail.com ICQ: 10886438 mIRC: telephrk Aol IM: TelePhrk 0 http://welcome.to/phonerangers http://phonerangers.cjb.net ---------------------FREE KEVIN ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 06 Dec 1998 01:26:38 +0000 From: kerry Subject: Re: [mitnick] Response documents If anyone has a little time to index these 2 documents with tags that'd be really nice.... Just copy the source, and use 
 at the
significant parts of the documents.  They're not long, and they're
actually really interesting to read.

gracias,
kerry

kerry wrote:

> The latest documents are now on kevin's site:
>
> http://www.kevinmitnick.com/120298defreply.html
>
> http://www.kevinmitnick.com/120298randecl.html
>
> They address all the points involving government misconduct and they do
> it very well.  Why on earth did the judge make that comment that she
> didn't like the way this was written?
>
> ***********************************************************
> F R E E  K E V I N  http://www.KevinMitnick.com

- --
***********************************************************
FREE KEVIN bumperstickers  http://www.mindspring.com/~jump0
***********************************************************
PO Box 17435 - Raleigh NC 27619 - email jump0@mindspring.com
checks/money orders payable to "Free Kevin Publicity Fund"
***********************************************************
Stickers are sold at cost plus postage - we make no profit
from this effort -  donations are split equally between
Kevin's Defense Fund and the Free Kevin Publicity Fund.
***********************************************************
F R E E  K E V I N  http://www.KevinMitnick.com

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 05 Dec 1998 21:23:46 -0400
From: che guevara 
Subject: Re: [mitnick] Response documents

how should we do it?
should we put the key words at the top an then the 's where they
belong or what?
kerry wrote:
> 
> If  anyone has a little time to index these 2 documents with  name="whatever"> tags that'd be really nice....
> 
> Just copy the source, and use 
 at the
> significant parts of the documents.  They're not long, and they're
> actually really interesting to read.
> 
> gracias,
> kerry
> 

- --
che guevara






"I never think of the future - it comes soon enough."
	[albert einstein]

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 5 Dec 1998 21:41:16 -0600
From: "jackdarippa" 
Subject: Re: [mitnick] Hacking the government computers...

- -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

All I'm saying is, this list isn't gonna get into a serious discussion
about taking guns and overthrowing the government in a glorious
violent revolution, at least i don't THINK it is....i don't know
though, there are some really strange people here.

jackdarippa
- - -----Original Message-----
From: maverick212@juno.com 
To: mitnick@2600.com 
Date: Wednesday, December 02, 1998 9:23 PM
Subject: Re: [mitnick] Hacking the government computers...


>
>On Mon, 30 Nov 1998 17:44:13 -0600 "jackdarippa"

>writes:
>
>>Umm...if you're toying with the idea of a revolution to take over
the
>>government in the name of Kevin Mitnick...read it again, you may
start
>>laughing.  You don't overthrow the government because of a single
>>political prisoner, you just learn to hate it, and if you're naive
>>like we are (not a bad thing, it sometimes can help), you try to fix
>>it, not blow it up.
>>
>>jackdarippa
>
>Find a large, smooth, flat area. Point yourself toward a landmark,
close
>your eyes, and start walking. 99% of the time, you won't walk in a
>straight line. You'll deviate.
>Government has as it's aim, Freedom for all. But after 200 years, it
has
>deviated from it's goal. If the deviation was slight, a slight course
>correction would be all that was needed. But if the deviation is
allowed
>to grow larger, more and more extreme measures become necessary.
>
>The Government takes taxpayers money and gives it away.
>It wastes out money on pork barrel projects.
>It tramples our freedoms.
>I don't have the time to list all the examples of the above, but the
>Kevin Mitnick case is one example. No bail hearing, no access to
>evidence, the exaggeration of charges, etc, etc, etc.
>Now, his case alone isn't enough to justify a "revolution to take
over
>the government". But all the cases where similar things go on, when
added
>together, just may....
>
>The fight will have many different fronts, and those fighting will
have
>many different reasons for doing so, but there will be a common goal-
>Freedom and Justice for all.
>
> Maverick
>
>___________________________________________________________________
>You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
>Get completely free e-mail from Juno at
http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
>or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]
>
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------------------------------

Date: Sun, 6 Dec 1998 00:09:06 EST
From: FallOut4E@aol.com
Subject: [mitnick] Why the sever?

Does anyone know about why De Payne wants a separate trial then Mitnick?  Was
it because Mitnick's camp alleged a government informant was working for
Sherman?  Anyone with the knowledge please explain.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 06 Dec 1998 13:46:34 +0000
From: kerry 
Subject: [mitnick] Evidence

Well, now that the trial date has been moved back, Kevin will *only*
have to look at about 19,000 pages of evidence per day (as of now) in
order to review all the evidence by April 20.

***********************************************************
F R E E  K E V I N  http://www.KevinMitnick.com

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 06 Dec 1998 06:59:43 PST
From: "TelePhreak -" 
Subject: [mitnick] Spreading The Word

see, this upsets me so much. When i go and tell people about kevin's 
story they just refuse to accept it as the truth. I explain to them the 
major aspecs of the case, but they keep saying "well he must have done 
something wrong." and "what are you talking about? you have to have a 
trial to be in jail for that long!" and no one believes me. Then this 
thing with evidence, i cant believe it.....personally its not that bad 
that they moved the trial back till april because now it gives them more 
time to prepare for the case. Can someone re-post the url for the wired 
article. since changing email addy's i havent read any mail sent to 
acidhak@hotmail.com. Oh yea, i thought that the reason they were gonna 
move the trial back was because the government was suppose to give 
mitnick 90 days to review the evidence, instead the gov was late and 
gave it to them 60 days in advance. So wouldn't that only make the trial 
to be set back till feb.? Please people add your imput.  

---------------------FREE KEVIN
- -TelePhreak
of The Phone Rangers
Email: telephrk@hotmail.com
ICQ: 10886438
mIRC: telephrk
Aol IM: TelePhrk 0
http://welcome.to/phonerangers
http://phonerangers.cjb.net
---------------------FREE KEVIN


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 06 Dec 1998 09:08:00 PST
From: "TelePhreak -" 
Subject: [mitnick] Laptop Issued? 

i just got finished reading the wired article on mitnick's trial being 
delayed, etc...  Did they really allow him to use a laptop to look at 
the files, or is this just another lie made up by the media. I'm sorry 
if this was already mentioned, but i am not able to view my mail from 
the last 4 days or so, at my other email address.

---------------------FREE KEVIN
- -TelePhreak
of The Phone Rangers
Email: telephrk@hotmail.com
ICQ: 10886438
mIRC: telephrk
Aol IM: TelePhrk 0
http://welcome.to/phonerangers
http://phonerangers.cjb.net
---------------------FREE KEVIN


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 6 Dec 1998 09:24:36 -0800
From: "Paul Hsieh" 
Subject: Re: [mitnick] Spreading The Word

> see, this upsets me so much. When i go and tell people about kevin's 
> story they just refuse to accept it as the truth. I explain to them the 
> major aspecs of the case, but they keep saying "well he must have done 
> something wrong." and "what are you talking about? you have to have a 
> trial to be in jail for that long!" and no one believes me.

The sad thing is -- when I tell people this story they just say "yeah, that's the 
government for you".  Worse than disbelief is apathy.  At least when you 
convince those people, you have a potential outraged voice to add to the 
movement.


- --
Paul Hsieh
qed@pobox.com

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 06 Dec 1998 13:05:50 -0500
From: Dan Sissman 
Subject: Re: [mitnick] lamers on the loose

Caliban Tiresias Darklock wrote:

> The reasoning behind this (I've mailed the creator of this movement
> extensively about it) isn't what it looks like. The problem FH is seeing,
> and which I have seen as well to some extent, is that a lot of people are
> plopping "Free Kevin" banners on their sites without the slightest clue who
> Kevin is.
>
> The "Free Kevin" banner -- and I have said this before, but it generated no
> response -- is becoming an annoyance. It does not mean anything anymore. All
> it says is that the person who made this web page knows how to put a banner
> image on his site and link it.

> I agree that the banner has become irrelevant at best and detrimental at
> worst. In consideration of what FH is doing and why, I'd have to say that the
> end result is still to get people seeing Kevin's name all over the place and
> wondering what the heck is going on.

I disagree.  The main purpose of the "Free Kevin" banners, as I see it, is to
reach people who don't already know about the situation.  Consider the case of
such a person encountering each of the banners.  If he/she sees the "Free Kevin"
banner, wonders what it's about, and clicks on it, they'll end up at
kevinmitnick.com.  I think we can agree this is a good place for people to learn
about Kevin's case and make up their own minds about it.
    If, however, the same person were to follow the link on a "Kill Kevin"
banner, they'd end up on a page which says (among other things):

"This page is basically to just let everyone who supports Kevin Mitnick know
that they are fucking idiots who have no clue of what is going on and the only
reason they are saying bullshit stuff like "FREE KEVIN!!!!" is because they
think it is some hip thing to say"

FH says Kevin belongs behind bars, and encourages people to read the facts for
themselves, but doesn't provide any links to "facts" which support his ideas.

I agree that there are some less enlightened types that put up "Free Kevin"
banners as a fashion statement, but who cares what their reasons are?  If an
uninformed third party can still follow that link and end up at
kevinmitnick.com, isn't kevin's cause still served?  And as for the wannabes, do
you really think they're going to re-evaluate their reasons for posting "Free
Kevin" banners on the basis of someone who calls them idiots--excuse me,
"fucking idiots"?

- --
Dan Sissman, amateur triviaphile            Free Kevin Mitnick!
http://www.albany.net/~dsissman             http://www.kevinmitnick.com

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 6 Dec 1998 13:15:54 EST
From: DOCGGG@aol.com
Subject: Re: [mitnick] Spreading The Word

When I'm telling people about it, their response is usually "well he must of
done something bad, the government just doesn't hold people for nothing"
than I explain how he's being used as an example...i've gotten the word to
almost everyone i've talked to, because I give analogies and good examples but
there are some who won't listen, which in everything that is said there will
be people like that.

all we can do is keep on trying, because it will work, patience and force is
needed.

pardon the aol address as usual

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 06 Dec 1998 13:44:19 -0500
From: john barleycorn 
Subject: Re: [mitnick] Spreading The Word

Paul Hsieh wrote:
> 
> > see, this upsets me so much. When i go and tell people about kevin's
> > story they just refuse to accept it as the truth. I explain to them the
> > major aspecs of the case, but they keep saying "well he must have done
> > something wrong." and "what are you talking about? you have to have a
> > trial to be in jail for that long!" and no one believes me.
> 
> The sad thing is -- when I tell people this story they just say "yeah, that's the
> government for you".  Worse than disbelief is apathy.  At least when you
> convince those people, you have a potential outraged voice to add to the
> movement.

If you ask me me this is the biggest problem with garnishing public
support. People may care enough to say "Yea hes getting a bum rap. That
really sucks", but few care enough to *do* anything. Its the typical
"Well its not affecting me. Why should I care?" attitude. This carries
over to *alot* of subjects in the american political/social arena.
People are just to damned comfortable with their lives to pitch a fit
about much of anything anymore, unless it involves probing into and
legislating someones sex life.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 06 Dec 1998 14:00:30 -0500
From: Dan Sissman 
Subject: Re: [mitnick] Reporters/quiet

Douglas Thomas wrote:

> Another a piece of the puzzle that people may not be aware of is that this
> is Pfaelzer's last criminal case.  Which is why, I am sure, she is so
> anxious to get it started.

Is she retiring, going to a civil court, or what?

- --
Dan Sissman, amateur triviaphile            Free Kevin Mitnick!
http://www.albany.net/~dsissman             http://www.kevinmitnick.com

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 6 Dec 1998 14:46:16 EST
From: Temujin217@aol.com
Subject: [mitnick] Proof of existence?

This may not be of any use to anyone other than me, but oh well.

Noone I talked to outside of a small circle of people even believed that Kevin
Mitnick EXISTS, let alone has been imprisoned for over 3 years without a
trial.  I found, in reply to those comments, that simply by searching the
public database of USDOJ files, you can find several articles that verbalize
KM's predicament.  Although it doesn't evoke ANY sympathy in non believers,
perhaps it can be used, at least by some people, as proof of his existence.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 6 Dec 1998 10:49:51 -0800
From: "luvshark" 
Subject: [mitnick] say what huh ?????

I was shocked to learn that the prosecution came up with the figure of 80
million dollars damage , or would that be virtual damage , I imagine that
they want to bump that up as much as possible as damage is very relevant in
the sentencing phase. I also wonder if the alleged victims of the alleged
damage were compinsated for the alleged damage, convenient huh ?

Luvshark

http://home1.gte.net/vthing/index.htm

http://arctik.com

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 6 Dec 1998 15:30:06 EST
From: ExeRoy@aol.com
Subject: Re: [mitnick] lamers on the loose

actually, i'd have to really disagree with the idea that the banners and
ribbons do nothing.  they do do a lot.  i run the free kevin ribbons, and i
get lots of mail from people saying they learned about kevin from clicking on
one of the ribbons.

- - dangerz
http://members.xoom.com/kevinribbon/index.html

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 6 Dec 1998 15:40:00 -0500
From: "Geoffrey Rollins" 
Subject: Re: [mitnick] Proof of existence?

hello how does one access the DOJ public file database I would like to check
into it.
- ----- Original Message -----
From: 
To: 
Sent: Sunday, December 06, 1998 2:46 PM
Subject: [mitnick] Proof of existence?


>This may not be of any use to anyone other than me, but oh well.
>
>Noone I talked to outside of a small circle of people even believed that
Kevin
>Mitnick EXISTS, let alone has been imprisoned for over 3 years without a
>trial.  I found, in reply to those comments, that simply by searching the
>public database of USDOJ files, you can find several articles that
verbalize
>KM's predicament.  Although it doesn't evoke ANY sympathy in non believers,
>perhaps it can be used, at least by some people, as proof of his existence.
>

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 06 Dec 1998 12:59:08 -0800
From: Caliban Tiresias Darklock 
Subject: Re: [mitnick] lamers on the loose

On 01:05 PM 12/6/98 -0500, I personally witnessed Dan Sissman jumping up to
say:
>
>The main purpose of the "Free Kevin" banners, as I see it, is to
>reach people who don't already know about the situation.  

"Free Kevin" looks like something a terrorist would say, doesn't it? "Free
Harad al'Washid" (or whoever) is a common demand made by terrorists in
movies. Therefore, when we say "Free X", we just identify ourselves with
terrorists in the mind of the common American moviegoer. 

Thank God Kevin isn't Arabic.

>If he/she sees the "Free Kevin"
>banner, wonders what it's about, and clicks on it, they'll end up at
>kevinmitnick.com.  

What induces the reader to click on the banner? Pure curiosity? I mean,
it's an *ugly* banner. And banners are everywhere. How many banners do you
actually click on every day? How many do you even pay attention to?

>I think we can agree this is a good place for people to learn
>about Kevin's case and make up their own minds about it.

I think we can also agree that our job is not really just to provide a link
to the site, but to get people to go to the site. The "Free Kevin" banner
does not do this effectively, mainly because it is located at the front
door to the site. The "Free Kevin" banner is a cryptic link located at the
beginning of a journey which does not go to the Mitnick site. The user does
not want to go to the Mitnick site. He wants to go to the site he is at
right now, which has something he wants. The banner is a distraction, and
as such must be extraordinarily compelling to convince the viewer to click
on it. We are trying to talk the viewer into a detour. A little arrow
saying "this way" doesn't do that very well.


I might also note that the "Free Kevin" banner often looks like a
decoration, not like a link. It is a statement, complete in and of itself.
What indicates to anyone that this banner leads to anything? To use a UI
design phrase, it doesn't look pliant. The design -- and thus the banner --
is ineffective.

Consider also: We are all *supposed* to take pride in our individuality.
Why are we all using the same banner? Why are we wearing badges? We don't
need no stinking badges. If we design and post our own personal statements,
artwork, or code to convince people to learn more about Kevin Mitnick, then
we will get a whole hell of a lot more brilliant ideas out of the
imaginative and intelligent and creative people who care about this issue.
Much of the public perception problem we have is that people think hackers
are all the same. Why are we being "consistent" in this, of all things?

>FH says Kevin belongs behind bars, and encourages people to read the facts
for
>themselves, but doesn't provide any links to "facts" which support his ideas.

This *is* a problem, and I brought it up, but it's his page. He can link or
not link as he pleases. It's a freedom of speech issue.

>I agree that there are some less enlightened types that put up "Free Kevin"
>banners as a fashion statement, but who cares what their reasons are?  If an
>uninformed third party can still follow that link and end up at
>kevinmitnick.com, isn't kevin's cause still served?  

If forty idiots put "Free Kevin" banners on their sites, and an uninformed
third party goes to twenty of them, he has just seen twenty idiots with the
same banner on their sites. That banner is therefore a banner which is used
by idiots, from empirical research, and the visitor not only does not give
two tin shits about Kevin but will associate any "Free Kevin" banner he
sees with idiocy. As a result, he will ignore otherwise intelligent and
informed people because he had some bad experiences. 

If you say something intelligent about Kevin on your site, then obviously
you said something intelligent and you aren't an idiot. If you were, you
would have said something lame and pointless that no one cared about. But
most importantly, if you said something intelligent no one would mistake it
for the actions or opinions of an idiot.

>And as for the wannabes, do
>you really think they're going to re-evaluate their reasons for posting "Free
>Kevin" banners on the basis of someone who calls them idiots--excuse me,
>"fucking idiots"?

Yep. The thought process would go like this: "Oh my God! I have a FREE
KEVIN banner on my site! That makes me a fucking idiot! I'd better download
this KILL KEVIN banner right now!"

Hey, nobody is accusing these people of major brain power.

- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
As the fire burneth a wood, and the flame setteth the mountains on fire; 
So persecute them with thy tempest, and make them afraid with thy storm. 
- ---------------------------[ Psalms, 83:14-15 ]---------------------------
Caliban Tiresias Darklock      | "Hell, you don't   
Darklock Communications    |  know me."         
FREE KEVIN MITNICK!    |    - Charles Manson  
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
And remember, if you don't kiss Hank's ass he'll kick the shit out of you.
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 6 Dec 1998 16:55:03 -0500
From: Emmanuel Goldstein 
Subject: Re: [mitnick] lamers on the loose

On Sun, Dec 06, 1998 at 01:05:50PM -0500, Dan Sissman wrote:
> 
> I agree that there are some less enlightened types that put up "Free Kevin"
> banners as a fashion statement, but who cares what their reasons are?  If an
> uninformed third party can still follow that link and end up at
> kevinmitnick.com, isn't kevin's cause still served?  And as for the wannabes, do
> you really think they're going to re-evaluate their reasons for posting "Free
> Kevin" banners on the basis of someone who calls them idiots--excuse me,
> "fucking idiots"?

that's exactly the point and you sum it up well. the purpose of the
stickers (real and virtual) is primarily to grab attention so that
people start asking "who's kevin?" i can't count the number of times
total strangers have come up to me asking that. if they see it on the
net, they can just click on it and have their questions answered. (i'm
assuming the people who put these things on their pages are copying the
link over as well.) why should we care what the enlightenment level of
the host page is as long as people curious about what "free kevin" means
get the chance to find out?

it's also a really good idea if you have one of these on your car to
carry a bunch of updated flyers with you. which reminds me, it's
about time to update the flyers...

emmanuel

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 6 Dec 1998 16:54:00 EST
From: Bobwil623@aol.com
Subject: [mitnick] latest fr poulsen in re 12/3/98 hearing...

poulsen's latest misspelling of judge pfaelzer ;-) may be found at....

http://www.zdnet.com/zdtv/cybercrime/chaostheory/story/0,3700,2172016,00.ht
ml

> The continuance was in response to a strongly worded 
> defense motion filed two weeks ago, in which Randolph 
> argued that he needed the additional time to investigate 
> the role of a potential government witness who had, at one 
> time, worked as a clerk for a member of the defense team. 
> Randolph also complained that the government had been late 
> turning over evidence for his review...

i'm willing to accept that it's just me, but there's something odd going 
on in this case, especially when the prosecution and the defense suddenly 
drop the antagonistic postures they displayed in (first) the defense 
motions to continue and to demand compliance w/discovery, and (second) 
the prosecution's rediculously melodramatic - and inaccurate - criticism 
of legitemate defense claims in the prosecution's response, and (lastly) 
the strong defense response to the prosecution's inaccurate criticism.

the "buddy-buddy" behavior apparently seen in court by poulsen's 
associate (on the scene when poulsen was away on business, apparently) is 
disquieting, to say the least.

what's that i smell? is that the smell of "sell out"?  

i do hope no bargain gets struck that ignores the serious violations of 
rule 16, giglio, and brady material as alleged in the fine defense 
response filed on 12/2/98.  would be a shame to see such a fine response 
go uninvestigated.

the motions, as well as the responses, may be seen at 
http://www.kevinmitnick.com/docs.html

read 'em, and let the list know what you think -- especially for the 
journalists on the list (not to mention  "government employees".... 
;-)

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 6 Dec 1998 16:54:45 EST
From: BadGirlnLA@aol.com
Subject: [mitnick] Banner, Banner---who has the Banner?

Caliban,

You have too damn much time on your hands.

You have, in deed, covered the BANNER subject.  Now, how about
dropping it, or better yet-----create your own banner and come back
and show us.

There is nothing wrong with the FREE KEVIN banner.  It is a way of 
connecting all the sites and the individuals who are sympathetic to Kevin 
Mitnick.

A BANNER IS A BANNER IS A BANNER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The banner, which also appears on the t-shirts, pens, pencils, bumper
stickers, stationery and many other items, connotes a general theme
which I find positive.

I hear good things about the banner.  The idiot negative remarks are
made by those who do not know the facts.

Buy a shirt from Kevin Joubert.  Wear this sexy "free kevin" shirt for
one day.  If you get the negative reactions you are pontificating about
today, I will refund your money.

Bad Girl

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 6 Dec 1998 17:00:46 -0500
From: Emmanuel Goldstein 
Subject: Re: [mitnick] Spreading The Word

On Sun, Dec 06, 1998 at 01:44:19PM -0500, john barleycorn wrote:
> 
> If you ask me me this is the biggest problem with garnishing public
> support. People may care enough to say "Yea hes getting a bum rap. That
> really sucks", but few care enough to *do* anything. Its the typical
> "Well its not affecting me. Why should I care?" attitude. This carries
> over to *alot* of subjects in the american political/social arena.

mention that this whole case basically centers around someone who
*copied* some files. didn't delete them, didn't sell them, didn't cause
any discernible harm. he's been in prison for nearly four years because
he copied some old outdated analog cellular software. then ask them
if they paid for their copy of microsoft word. then walk away.

works every time.

emmanuel

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 06 Dec 1998 17:11:10 -0400
From: che guevara 
Subject: Re: [mitnick] Banner, Banner---who has the Banner?

BadGirlnLA@aol.com wrote:
> You have, in deed, covered the BANNER subject.  Now, how about
> dropping it, or better yet-----create your own banner and come back
> and show us.
he doesn't have a banner...on the front page of his site,
www.darklock.com, he writes:
If an American citizen could be held in federal prison for almost four
years without
                                            trial or bail, would that
disturb you? 

                                What if I told you it was happening to
someone right now? 

                                                         Tell me more 
and it is clearly visible...when i get around to updating my site, i
will do something similair

- --
che guevara






"I never think of the future - it comes soon enough."
	[albert einstein]

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 06 Dec 1998 14:20:46 -0800
From: Caliban Tiresias Darklock 
Subject: Re: [mitnick] Banner, Banner---who has the Banner?

On 04:54 PM 12/6/98 -0500, I personally witnessed BadGirlnLA@aol.com
jumping up to say:
>
>You have too damn much time on your hands.

Actually, it's just that everything is so trivial to someone of my advanced
intellect, it doesn't take much time at all.

>You have, in deed, covered the BANNER subject.  Now, how about
>dropping it, 

And let someone else have the last word? Heaven forbid.

>or better yet-----create your own banner and come back
>and show us.

I just suggested in my last email that we all create our own
banner/text/artwork/whatever. I have previously mentioned the direction I
went with it myself. 

>There is nothing wrong with the FREE KEVIN banner.  It is a way of 
>connecting all the sites and the individuals who are sympathetic to Kevin 
>Mitnick.

Nope, there's nothing *wrong* with it at all. Of course, there are
certainly some specific issues which I believe I've covered sufficiently.

>A BANNER IS A BANNER

And a hacker is a hacker? 

Kind of ironic, isn't it?

>The banner, which also appears on the t-shirts, pens, pencils, bumper
>stickers, stationery and many other items, connotes a general theme
>which I find positive.

I am not talking about pens and stickers and t=shirts. I am talking
exclusively about the banners on web pages, which is what the term "banner"
is generally understood to mean on the internet. If I had said "logo" or
"motif", then I could understand your confusion; as it is, I find it
inscrutable.

>I hear good things about the banner.  The idiot negative remarks are
>made by those who do not know the facts.

However, FH most definitely *does* know the facts, and has raised some
issues surrounding the message of the web-based image banners people put on
their home pages (clear enough?) which I find to be valid and worthy of
consideration. 

Of course, we could just go on doing what we've been doing. There's
certainly no risk there.

- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
As the fire burneth a wood, and the flame setteth the mountains on fire; 
So persecute them with thy tempest, and make them afraid with thy storm. 
- ---------------------------[ Psalms, 83:14-15 ]---------------------------
Caliban Tiresias Darklock      | "Hell, you don't   
Darklock Communications    |  know me."         
FREE KEVIN MITNICK!    |    - Charles Manson  
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
And remember, if you don't kiss Hank's ass he'll kick the shit out of you.
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

End of mitnick-digest V1 #212
*****************************