/*  Counter-Point  */

	Not long ago we featured an article entitled Counter-Point where two people, one of which was Screamer Chaotix, and the other a student from Connecticut University.  Among other things, the ethics of hacking and hackers were debated, and resulted in quite a flood of email.  People seemed to enjoy the simplistic debate format, so we figured wed bring it back once again.  This time our debaters are a couple of online friends that have very different viewpoints regarding a number of issues related to hacking.  To protect their anonymity, their handles are used.  Should you have any questions or comments for our presenters, please send all correspondence to screamer@hackermind.net, and well forward the information appropriately.

[Conducted via teleconference on August 29, 2003, and cleaned up for your reading enjoyment.]
[Interview conducted by Screamer Chaotix.]


Question:  
	First things first, tell us a little about yourselves.

Azrael: 
	I think Breakers a little shy so why dont I go first.  My handle is Azrael in case you didnt already know, and I suppose Ive been into computers for about six or seven years now.  My first exposure to the hacker scene, whatever that is, was a few years back when I sort of just realized thats where I fit in the best.  School was never my thing, too restrictive, always giving us the same bullshit day in and day out about what we were expected to do.  I just wanted to have fun, and found that through my computers at home.  I would play with them day and night, sometimes not sleeping, then go into school dead to the world.  It really upset my teachers, but hey they really upset me.  They always wanted things done the right way, even if it wasnt the most efficient or even just the easiest.  Those rules, those restrictions I guess were what drove me to become a tad more rebellious with my computing.

Breaker:
	I guess Im the antithesis of Azrael here (laughs), but I know that, at least in youth, I was just like him.  But while he mentions some sort of scene, I never really found anything like that.  For me, hackers and techies were just people cut off from reality.  They came together to share a common interest, but never really accomplished anything except their own self-gratification.  As a programmer myself, Ive always admired the hackers that set out on long-term projects that wind up creating a better society for us all, and I put Woz (Steve Wozniak, formerly of Apple Computer) and Linus Torvalds at the top of the list.  These guys never set out to become rebels or cyberpunks, they just loved working with computers.  Its that pureness and devotion that I admire, and while I would consider myself a hacker, I dont associate with the folks at your typical 2600 meeting.  Im sure theyre nice people, but as hackers go, you probably wont find them writing their own kernel anytime soon.


Question:
	Two people, both of which consider themselves hackers.  What would you say is acceptable or unacceptable, right or wrong, when it comes to hacking?

Breaker:
	Thats one hell of a first question, I doubt you got enough room in your zine.  I suppose the best way to think about right and wrong is to look at the rights and wrongs of everyday life.  To give you an example, a buddy of mine is a damn fine magician, hell he could give David Lame or whatever his name is a run for his money.  When it comes to cards, he can do incredible things like palming, switching cards, adding new cards, etc etc.  And all this without a single person seeing.  I know, hes showed me plenty of times.  Yet on our poker nights, he never comes up with a Royal Flush, and rarely wins much money at all.  Now, I mean, why not?  He could easily manipulate the cards and give himself the advantage, but he chooses not to.  He chooses not to because he was raised properly, he has morals, he knows right from wrong.  In fact, Im glad Screamer let us read his introduction to this issue before we gave this interview because it really helps me point out a few things.  It was all about make believe, and how people are forced to pretend certain things are possible.  Well let me tell you, and no offense Scream, therere a lot of things in this world people can do, but are not allowed to.  I could easily rob the store I work at, I could easily spy on people, and I could easily screw someone over, but I dont.  Shit, Im no better than anyone else, but I do know right from wrong.  Take your average phreak, if theyre worth their weight in gold they know at least several ways of making a free phone call so that the phone company foots the bill.  But all hate and immature anger aside, does it really make it right?  Like Prot says in K-Pax, everyone knows the difference between right and wrong.

Azrael:
	Actually, thanks for mentioning the intro because Screamer also talks about how businesses are able to screw over the little guy without so much as a slap on the wrist.  Ever looked at your phone bill?  Youre paying for a number portability charge, meaning should you ever relocate, you can keep your number.  The catch is, youll probably wind up paying about two hundred dollars for that service and never use it!  Why cant people just pay a flat fee if they decide to use it?  Answer: Because the phone company can do that.  They can try and trick you into paying more, remember on Hackermind when one of the hosts, cant remember which, said the telco wanted to send someone out to their house when all they had to do was press one damn button on the switch? (For the record, it was Screamer)  If youre going to say they dont understand their own machinery and made an honest mistake, get out of here, thats bullshit.  They just wanted to weasel out more money, and then finally gave in after enough bitching and moaning.  They also used to charge touch tone fees when their switching equipment RELIED on touch tones!  They were no special feature, but still the telco kept charging!  When they have to pay bills, they charge their customers more so as not to tap into their profits, and the list goes on and on.  Yet, should I dare send my voice down their lines without paying their outrageous fees, suddenly Im a cracker and deserve to be strung up!  Youre right, everyone does know the difference between right and wrong, but that doesnt mean everyone holds the same beliefs.  Whats right to me, could be wrong to you.  The only question I have is why big business gets to walk all over the little guy so damn much.  Why do I have thirteen pop ups on my screen right now, and why must my resources be cut in half because of spyware I was tricked into running?  Its not fair.


Question:
	Regarding the history of hacking, is it the same today as it was twenty, thirty, or even forty years ago?

Azrael:
	Gotta confess, we actually knew about this question in advance and were talking about it before you came on.  Breaker seems convinced that hacking is nothing but programming, and in that sense, too many kids today are calling themselves hackers without actually understanding the nitty gritty stuff.  For the most part I agree, there are a lot of people calling themselves hackers when theyre only skill is changing batteries, but if were to assume that the definition is applied according to skill, where do we draw the line?  The kid that works with Perl is overshadowed by the one working with C, the one working with C is overshadowed by the one working with asm, and so on.  But even someone coding in asm probably doesnt know everything, have they ever bothered to learn about networking protocols?  Hell, would they even know what hping2 did?  Hacking has evolved to many fronts, and so have the hackers.  Programming is an excellent skill to have, and Id even say an essential one, but to eliminate others because of what they choose to do with their computers is wrong.

Breaker:
	So in other words you would say the kid that uses hping2 to spoof his IP is a hacker? (Azrael answers Yes, not the greatest, but yes)  But by using other peoples programs, and by not getting down to the machine language itself, or even just a high level programming language, are you really hacking anything at all?  Sounds to me like using programs and hopping all over the net is no different than turning on your computer and using Word.  Youre not hacking the machine, youre just using it.  So if you want to pretend to be a hacker, go ahead and telnet to an smtp port and send a spoofed email.  But if you want to be a real hacker, go back to the ways of the originals and learn to program.

Azrael:
	And you think the hackers of yesterday wouldnt want to explore the internet today?  Had the internet existed in the 60s, you dont think the TMRC boys would have been all over it?  See thats my point, technology is constantly changing, and we need to change with it.  You could code me a video game in asm right now, and Id probably look at you and laugh if it was anything like what was made in the 60s.  But theres so much more out there today, and the hacker spirit lives on.  Hackers today are just as enthusiastic about discovering new things as those of the past.  The methods might be different, but the spirit remains.

Breaker:
	People who lack real skill always try to put down those that possess it, thats all Ill say.


Question:
	Breaker, would you say theres such a thing as innocent digital exploration?

Breaker:
	Innocence is a cover-up for crime.  You wouldnt justify rape by saying well the guy just wanted to know what sex was like so you cant justify other acts in that manner.  When people do something thats against the law and or morally wrong, they know it, and deserve some sort of punishment.  Obviously rape and computer intrusion are two very different things, I know that, but the principle is the same.  Motive does not make up for crime, just like the lady stealing a loaf of bread story weve all heard, its still wrong.  Find a legal way to do what you want to do, and stop using your innocent intentions as a means to justify crime.

Question:
	Azrael, would you say theres such a thing as destructive digital exploration?

Azrael:
	(Breaker jokes about Azrael getting the easy question)  Oh hell yes, anyone that carelessly uses a computer and destroys files or does intentional mischief is being destructive.  But I think intent should have a lot to do with it, thats why we have First Degree, Second Degree, and so on.  Your frame of mind, and your intent, should play a role in how youre dealt with.  Of course, there is such a thing as innocent exploration.  Lets be honest, Breaker is right when he says rape is completely different, it is!  Going into a computer network and looking around, possibly rooting a few machines and just having fun with all these remote computers is cool, and generally doesnt hurt anyone.  Oh sure people might have to check the system when youre done, but they get paid for that anyway.  You shouldnt say theres no difference between a purposely destructive person, and a kid that just wants to play, because theres a huge difference.


Question:
	Your thoughts on Kevin Mitnick, and other computer intruders.  Also, try to justify your opinions with fact.

Azrael:
	Mitnick fits in with the innocent explorer personality I just mentioned.  He was a guy that loved computers, and like many hackers, became obsessed with them.  His laptops werent enough, and like any explorer he wanted to see what more was out there.  This led him to commit crimes in the eyes of the world, those his actual acts never went beyond impersonation, storing files, or copying source code.  You could beef those crimes up all you like with conjecture, but those are the facts.  Ive noticed holes in my software before, sometimes thanks to sources like 2600, and I have to go through the process of patching them.  Its the same thing if I find out about a hole due to an intrusion, maybe its a little more work, but its no big deal.  If no damage is done, then Mitnick and all other hackers should not be punished so severly.

Breaker:
	Actually I wouldnt put Kevin Mitnick very high up on my hate list, to me he really didnt do anything serious enough to be labeled the same way as an actual criminal that destroys files.  This doesnt mean I support his actions, or his rational behind them you understand, Im just saying that picking on Kevin Mitnick is not something I would dedicate a lot of time to.  Other intruders however, and other so-called hackers if were going to go by Azraels label, do cause damage.  Recently we saw what a precision strike against a power grid could accomplish, and while I dont think it was hackers that did that, the end result would be the same.  For that reason, we need to clamp down on peoples innocent explorations and remind them that the law is still the law.


Question:
	Breaker, what made you decide to turn away from the beliefs Azrael now holds?

Breaker: 
	Ah, good question.  Maturity for one, and heck that might be the only one actually.  Maturity, growing up, seeing the world outside my room, all that stuff really helped me see things more clearly.  Unfortunately for a lot of hackers, theyre confined to their computers and never get to experience life for what it really is.  Life doesnt happen in a college dorm room, is one of my favorites, because its very true.  Life happens outside, in the real world, and before you go and make such strong opinions about things, I ask that you actually experience them for yourself.  Screamer I know is a big fan of shortwave, but what even that neglects to show you are the day to day struggles people face, both in this country and abroad.  Go out, meet people, participate in the economy and the real world in general, you might begin to see that not everything is as good and evil as you would think.


Question:
	Azrael, why do you still hold the beliefs you do?

Azrael:
	Because I have seen the real world, and even the things I couldnt see first hand, Ive experienced through others.  People in war are usually quick to seek out peaceful alternatives, corporations and governments have screwed over my friends time and time again.  Authority figures of all kinds abuse their power daily, whether its a police officer pulling you over for being the wrong color, or a phone company extorting money from you.  Contrary to what some people think, I do live in the real world, and I have seen it firsthand.  Its not a terrible place, in fact theres a lot of good people out there, but as long as corruption and abusive regimes exist, Im going to keep thinking the way I do.  And as long as people are arrested, threatened, or possibly even killed for having the nerve to go against the set ways of the world, Im going to keep believing what I believe.


Question:
	Id like to thank you both for participating in this Counter-Point discussion.  Before we close, is there anything youd like to say?

Breaker:
	Keep playing with computers no matter who you are, but dont use your love for technology as an excuse to break the law.  Regardless of why you do it, youre still a criminal.  Help people dont hurt them, and with that Ill let my friend Azrael have the last word.

Azrael:
	Very kind of you.  Id like to agree with Breaker in that you should do good with your skills, but dont think the law is always right.  If laws were never questioned, blacks would still be sitting at the back of the bus.  People, especially hackers, should never be destructive, but always spread the word about the injustices you find.  We might all have different opinions about things, but if we help people, fight oppression, and speak our minds then we can never be stopped.


Screamer Chaotix:
	Again, thanks to you both for participating.


