[00:00.540 --> 00:06.420] I'm very honored to have been invited on the program. [00:06.940 --> 00:18.720] I know this is not an average talk, but I think in Tobin there have been several talks related to psychology, and I find that very interesting. [00:18.960 --> 00:28.620] I think psychology is a perfect match for helping us understand how we can work better together. [00:28.620 --> 00:47.980] So for this talk and for some of my values for approaching the subject of neuroinclusivity, I've been thinking about awareness, inclusivity, training, civility, fairness, and also flourishing. [00:47.980 --> 00:57.920] Because I think that ultimately we want to use technology and the arts to create better societies. [00:57.920 --> 01:06.080] And in order to do that, we need to understand ourselves better, and we need to understand how we can work together better. [01:06.080 --> 01:26.760] So my purpose for presenting this talk is to discuss a subject that I think matters to many people that has not been previously discussed in this conference, as far as I know. [01:26.760 --> 01:44.900] And in the intro to his book right here, Neurotribes, Steve Silverman discussed the tireless curiosity of a tribe of industrious hermits who invented the modern digital world. [01:44.900 --> 02:11.060] And in his introduction, he describes hacker communities and specific retreats where geeks got together and formed communities through the Internet and how that relates to the subject of autism, which is a complicated subject. [02:12.080 --> 02:23.620] I have been exploring madness as a subject in my research, and there's all of these different depictions of mad scientists, right? [02:23.800 --> 02:26.100] The mad scientist, it's like an archetype. [02:27.320 --> 02:38.280] Some screenshots from maniacs, 1934, you know, cyclopses, we have mad scientists in cartoons. [02:38.280 --> 02:59.020] Um, I've been thinking about the relationship between depictions of madness and disability and genius, um, because I think a lot of depictions of genius and information workers have also depicted madness and disability. [02:59.020 --> 03:03.940] So I've been exploring this in, like, literature and images. [03:04.970 --> 03:19.940] I was thinking about Rain Man and different, uh, pop cultural moments where savant, uh, uh, savants were sort of popularized in the public eye. [03:19.940 --> 03:36.000] And, uh, you know, Dustin Hoffman and Tom Cruise made this huge movie where Hoffman was, um, the savant learner, a brilliant man, um, but also very misunderstood by society. [03:36.000 --> 03:39.800] And I was even looking at Magic the Gathering cards. [03:40.100 --> 03:53.620] And, um, this is an archivist card, and there are all these archivist cards where they're, uh, halfling creatures and disabled and mad archivists and information workers. [03:53.620 --> 04:16.980] And so why is it that librarians, data scientists, information workers have been depicted as, uh, geniuses and also disabled folks, um, in all different kinds of cultural contexts? [04:16.980 --> 04:35.600] Um, so I was, this is just a Wikipedia, uh, screenshot, but there's this concept of sanism or mentalism that refers to the discrimination and oppression of people, uh, based... [04:35.600 --> 04:37.520] Uh, why is it cut off right now? [04:39.180 --> 04:40.520] Can we fix that? [04:43.460 --> 04:45.740] Okay, I'm not sure what's going on there. [04:45.740 --> 04:58.000] Anyway, based on actual or perceived mental disorders or cognitive impairments, this discrimination and oppression are based on numerous factors such as stereotypes about neurodiversity. [04:58.580 --> 05:09.840] So I was thinking about this concept of sanism and how it's approached in our society in relationship to information workers and computer scientists and hackers. [05:09.840 --> 05:17.380] And marginalization and marginalization and biasing may appear in a lot of different ways. [05:17.900 --> 05:28.980] So ableism is something that's discussed in disability studies, which is more about how ability is distinguished. [05:28.980 --> 05:34.960] And then we were just discussing, uh, mentalism and sanism. [05:36.320 --> 05:46.000] People also use other words to describe discrimination, such as mask... or stigmatization. [05:46.800 --> 05:58.420] Masking and camouflaging is an area of interest in the subject of marginalization and biasing because sometimes people... [05:58.420 --> 06:05.120] do not express their needs because they need to protect themselves. [06:05.580 --> 06:09.640] And that can result in other kinds of marginalization. [06:10.140 --> 06:16.240] So these are... I'm not going to go into all of these, uh, bullet points. [06:16.240 --> 06:26.680] I have a lot of text because I, uh, was taking the Staten Island Ferry and, like, was trying to get my images to load and I wouldn't... [06:26.680 --> 06:48.450] But anyway, an important point is that the presence of the neurotypical gaze, the presence of non-autistic researchers may transform the autistic space, as the autistic space, as fragile to the neurotypical gaze. [06:48.630 --> 07:13.110] And I was thinking about this a lot in the communities that I live in, where, uh, people understand each other, but then when other people enter that may not understand, um, neurodiversity, it, it does change the environment and people may not be able to express themselves in the same way. [07:13.290 --> 07:16.310] So there's all sorts of biasing factors that may occur. [07:17.190 --> 07:24.550] And we know from much research that neurodivergent people face inequities in work and society. [07:25.270 --> 07:33.670] In a study analyzing a sample of, uh, 25,000 people in the UK, Braneke et al. [07:33.950 --> 07:48.550] found that neurodivergent people are twice as likely to be in precarious employment and are more than ten times as likely to be in temporary employment, in addition to being significantly more likely to experience underemployment. [07:48.550 --> 08:09.690] So there's a lot of research about how the relationship between autism, ADHD, OCD, and many other kinds of expressions of what we might call neurodivergence and the relationship to, uh, employment. [08:10.590 --> 08:21.470] So in this talk, the problem space that I'm going to continue to discuss, it's related to stigmatization. [08:21.870 --> 08:43.790] But also what I found from doing, writing accessibility guides myself and, and, uh, writing accessibility documentation that I found that accessibility guides do not focus on, uh, neuroinclusivity. [08:43.790 --> 08:58.290] They focus more on legal definitions of disability, which hardly include, uh, any psychiatric diagnoses or psychological diagnoses. [08:58.670 --> 09:07.490] We do not have, nor do we necessarily want to gather stats on neurodiversity in our communities either. [09:07.830 --> 09:16.870] Um, so when I've been doing this research, people are always like, oh, so what percent of programmers are autistic? [09:17.430 --> 09:24.530] And I was like, do you really want to, do you really want us to do that research? [09:24.870 --> 09:34.990] I don't think that would be, uh, it's... some people have tried, but, uh, I don't know if you're gonna do a good job at that. [09:34.990 --> 09:36.410] Some people have tried. [09:37.570 --> 09:38.150] We... [09:39.770 --> 09:47.850] Access, uh, funding... Accessibility funding is also in the decline right now, at least in the U.S. [09:48.490 --> 09:55.710] So, I'm gonna... This is kind of negative stuff, but we are gonna arrive at some more positive stuff. [09:55.710 --> 10:09.410] So, um, for instance, uh, Vikram Jaswal from the Department of Psychology at the University of Virginia spoke in a review about this book. [10:10.610 --> 10:15.430] Uh, he spoke that the legacy of autism is not a happy one. [10:15.890 --> 10:22.250] Throughout history, autistic people have been misunderstood and marginalized, isolated, and ignored. [10:22.250 --> 10:27.030] They have been bullied by peers, abandoned by parents, and murdered by the Nazis. [10:27.510 --> 10:41.130] They have been the subject of... and subjected to some of the worst treatments and science imaginable involving everything from chelation to electric shocks, and that's just within the last century. [10:41.330 --> 10:45.150] And I'm speaking about this because it's very close to my heart. [10:47.370 --> 10:57.310] So, now we're going to proceed to attempt to define the concept of neurodiversity in related terms. [10:58.110 --> 11:01.230] And the purpose is to increase our awareness. [11:01.810 --> 11:12.990] And we're also going to explore the implications of neurodiversity, um, for design in our computational communities and other communities. [11:12.990 --> 11:16.730] So, I did not introduce myself yet. [11:17.010 --> 11:27.610] I have 13 years of experience, uh, in open-source communities, hackerspaces, and decentralized communities. [11:28.030 --> 11:35.770] And in these communities, I've developed anecdotal experiences, which I've come to trust. [11:35.770 --> 11:48.390] Um, because in feminist research methodology, it's important to take your emotions and address them. [11:48.550 --> 11:57.090] And realize that your emotions matter and that, um, they can, uh, tell you something about the world. [11:57.090 --> 12:10.190] So, I've been thinking about these topics related to, uh, neurodiversity and autism in computational communities and hacker communities, because I have been in these communities. [12:10.650 --> 12:15.670] And I have talked to hundreds of people about this. [12:15.910 --> 12:21.250] And I'm seeing some patterns that I wanted to explore in my own research. [12:22.010 --> 12:30.750] And then I, uh, found a mentor, um, Steve Silberman, who unfortunately passed away. [12:31.170 --> 12:39.530] And I would like to dedicate this talk to him because he wrote this very amazing book called Neurotribes about the history of autism. [12:39.890 --> 12:46.970] And a lot of it discusses Hans Asperger's and just how diagnoses work in general. [12:48.230 --> 12:54.890] And, uh, Steve, um, wrote a lot of liner notes for the Grateful Dead. [12:54.890 --> 12:57.350] And he was, like, living in the Haight-Ashbury. [12:57.630 --> 13:00.230] And he was, like, a gay man who's, like, so fun. [13:02.070 --> 13:06.110] And, uh, we really lost a great soul. [13:06.330 --> 13:27.690] But he, um, he contributed a lot to our understanding of the history of autism as a diagnosis, including as an editor of Wired, where he wrote this article called The Geek Syndrome, that was about, uh, the expression of autism among youth in Silicon Valley. [13:27.690 --> 13:33.450] And, um, there was, um, research done. [13:33.810 --> 13:49.770] Um, and I, um, I was inspired by this because many of my friends were isolating themselves. [13:49.770 --> 13:59.570] And, um, the idea of the geek, I think, is not a very clear archetype. [13:59.990 --> 14:12.510] And so I ended up contacting him, and he allowed me to, um, explore the, uh, idea of, uh, autism among Wikipedia editors. [14:13.670 --> 14:20.830] So, uh, there's this, like, really fun, um, uh, what is it called? [14:20.950 --> 14:25.430] Web series, or a series, um, called Asperger's R Us. [14:25.930 --> 14:32.620] And, uh, it's about a comedy troupe of people that identified as people with Asperger's. [14:33.420 --> 14:42.860] I'm saying that because the diagnosis had changed, but he said in a joke, obviously Wikipedia was written by people with Asperger's. [14:43.520 --> 14:49.480] So after seeing that, I was like, I'm definitely gonna start researching this. [14:49.480 --> 14:54.540] So I recruited, um, Steve and my friend Lane. [14:54.800 --> 14:59.700] And we started investigating the experiences of neurodivergent Wikimedians. [15:00.200 --> 15:14.940] But then we, uh, did all these text analysis of different, um, forums where, on Wikipedia, people were talking about how Wikipedia was a honeypot for, um, autistic people. [15:14.940 --> 15:30.200] And, um, uh, how we, we agree always to try to really hard to assume good faith when dealing with an editor of the other type from ourselves, and that's easy for us to misunderstand our own abilities. [15:30.760 --> 15:44.420] We agree to try really hard to remember that Asperger's autism spectrum and savant editors really can have trouble with intuitive interactions and processing of unclear, imprecise, or ambiguous language. [15:44.460 --> 15:50.620] And that does not mean that they are thick or disabled or intentionally disruptive. [15:51.080 --> 16:09.360] And I was thinking about this a lot because I think there's this perception of Wikipedia editors as trolls that was coming from a misunderstanding when Wikipedia editors, a lot of them were just people with Asperger's or autism or whatever you want to call it. [16:09.720 --> 16:16.180] And then there was, like, hundreds of forum discussions about this. [16:16.320 --> 16:21.340] And the idea that somehow Wikipedia attracts people with autism. [16:21.820 --> 16:26.080] And that, um, that it brings people in. [16:26.640 --> 16:32.120] Um, so now I'm gonna continue to discuss the idea of neurodiversity. [16:32.120 --> 16:38.120] And, uh, we're gonna continue to discuss design after that. [16:39.080 --> 16:53.060] So, the wider neurodiversity movement has begun to reposition and embrace a destigmatized conceptualization of neurotypes, representing a diversity of human experiences. [16:53.760 --> 17:01.140] Yet, neurodiversity frameworks have yet to be incorporated into existing medical ontologies. [17:01.140 --> 17:07.340] So, a lot of people, I think, rely too much on diagnoses. [17:07.920 --> 17:17.520] Yet, language is continuing to evolve with debates about best practices for contemporary usage of terminology around neurodivergent populations. [17:18.440 --> 17:25.980] Some members of the neurodivergent community disapprove of some terms which the research community has applied to them. [17:26.140 --> 17:37.920] For instance, the term high-functioning autism has been heavily criticized for focusing on deficits and problems to account for human differences. [17:38.180 --> 17:46.820] So, the idea of high-functioning itself already distinguishes between some that are more intelligent than others. [17:46.820 --> 17:51.800] So, then you have to have a language to talk about intelligence. [17:52.820 --> 18:04.220] Yet, I am from the tradition of disability studies, which would rather focus on people's lived experiences. [18:04.900 --> 18:07.340] I'm sorry, there's so much text, by the way. [18:09.560 --> 18:25.360] There is a tension between attempts to be inclusive when using neurodivergence as an umbrella term and the value of self-determination in terms of groups themselves choosing to update the term neurodivergence. [18:26.580 --> 18:41.760] So, I think going back to the idea of inclusivity and collaboration, transparency, collaborating and consulting with community groups can help inform researchers of how to represent people. [18:42.500 --> 18:50.160] At the same time, no one person or group can speak on behalf of large populations, even when they may claim to. [18:52.740 --> 18:58.220] All right, so going back to what is the history of the actual term neurodiversity. [18:58.780 --> 19:06.540] I did a lot of research on this, and I contacted many people to verify these things. [19:06.920 --> 19:17.260] And it turns out that the term developed on a mailing list, which was called the Independent Living Mailing List. [19:17.640 --> 19:40.000] And it was a mailing list that started in 1991, that people discussed the idea of living with others, like leaving your parents' house and living somewhere else, and the kind of complications and resources and things that you need for that. [19:40.000 --> 20:05.780] And people started discussing the idea of biodiversity, and how ecosystems end up being much more successful, let's say, or ecosystems end up being much more sustainable when there's more biodiversity. [20:05.780 --> 20:17.140] And the same thing goes for how communities end up being much more successful when there's neurodiversity. [20:17.600 --> 20:32.840] So that there are disputed accounts of how these terms developed, and people love to coin things, which I really don't like. [20:33.020 --> 20:36.600] Because you can say, oh, this person coined this thing. [20:36.760 --> 20:38.100] Oh, this person coined this thing. [20:38.360 --> 20:44.040] What about how we're a community, and we're developing these ideas together? [20:44.820 --> 20:57.120] And I really appreciate Bosa's idea that there are multiple origins in collective development for this concept, that emerged through the mailing list and the mailing list discussions. [20:57.620 --> 21:10.080] So different people that were participating in the mailing list claimed that it was their term, and yet it really emerged from this collective discussion. [21:12.400 --> 21:17.320] Armstrong is one of the leading scholars of neurodiversity. [21:17.780 --> 21:34.180] He claims that the category often includes autism, ADHD, dyslexia, OCD, disassociative disorders, personality disorders, anxiety, other brain disorders, behavioral disorders, personality disorders, mood disorders. [21:34.180 --> 21:55.140] However, me and my colleague, Claire Kronk, at Mount Sinai Medical Hospital, have been developing a corpora of terms associated with neurodiversity, because no one has developed an actual corpora for it. [21:55.140 --> 22:08.080] So these are the terms that we've assembled based on analysis of how neurodiversity has been used in science and medical journals. [22:09.460 --> 22:14.640] And yet there is no fixed definition. [22:15.120 --> 22:20.900] So when people refer to this concept, they may not even know what they mean. [22:20.900 --> 22:29.460] For instance, I think, as I said, Armstrong kind of limits it to this. [22:29.780 --> 22:32.920] He's not including fetal alcohol syndrome. [22:32.920 --> 22:41.260] He's not including hypermobility, which Steve Silverman made sure to tell me that we must include. [22:41.260 --> 22:56.100] And Silverman made sure to express that joint hypermobility needs to be represented. [22:56.100 --> 23:15.920] And so looking into these categories, it's actually very useful because if we can develop a corpora of neurodiversity, we can then probably advocate more for folks. [23:17.400 --> 23:23.180] However, diagnoses do not translate well and are designed for insurance purposes. [23:25.760 --> 23:31.640] So do we want to do the diagnosis thing? [23:31.820 --> 23:47.080] Because that's not actually the way that neurodiversity was originated as a concept that was against medical definitions. [23:48.840 --> 24:13.780] So future researchers analyzing topics related to neurodiversity should investigate the development of any recent ontologies as ontology projects evolve, including the level of community involvement in shaping the vocabularies, which we have been also trying to include communities in the shaping of [24:13.780 --> 24:15.620] the ontologies themselves. [24:17.000 --> 24:24.260] Although it's an umbrella category, many terms associated with it emerge in biomedical contexts. [24:24.860 --> 24:29.440] However, diagnoses and access to medicine differ internationally. [24:32.020 --> 24:38.500] All right, so I'm gonna continue on to... [24:40.280 --> 25:00.140] Oh yes, this point that a challenge of doing this research on neurodiversity is the tension between striving to be inclusive, and the brain differences across different brain differences, when research might involve needing to generate key search terms about unique conditions, [25:00.480 --> 25:04.260] and discussions about the effect of different diagnoses on experience. [25:04.960 --> 25:10.980] So how can we be inclusive and yet be protective of these definitions? [25:10.980 --> 25:27.160] So now I'm going to shift to discussions about how we can incorporate our appreciation for neurodiversity into our own communities. [25:29.400 --> 25:38.020] Because we've had... I was part of discussions about incorporating women into computer science and open-source. [25:38.020 --> 25:46.160] I was part of these discussions about incorporating diversity and diversity advocacy. [25:46.720 --> 25:51.360] And yet we didn't really talk about neurodiversity. [25:51.800 --> 26:01.000] Even though I believe from my research and anecdotal experience that a lot of people... [26:01.000 --> 26:07.350] I do identify as neurodivergent in hacker communities and hackerspaces. [26:07.350 --> 26:10.070] And in open-source communities. [26:10.550 --> 26:15.250] So how can we incorporate this into our design of our own communities? [26:17.010 --> 26:23.270] For virtual meetings, using the live transcript captioning features when available. [26:24.070 --> 26:27.570] Do not require participants to be on camera. [26:28.350 --> 26:32.150] Remind participants to mute themselves when not speaking. [26:33.190 --> 26:37.150] Assign someone to be responsible to meeting accommodations. [26:37.830 --> 26:40.830] And inform participants of who that person is. [26:41.490 --> 26:46.550] For the best results, test in advance, including any screen share media. [26:47.710 --> 26:49.630] So another thing is... [26:49.630 --> 26:53.870] You're probably familiar with these photography policies. [26:54.230 --> 26:58.170] And having wristbands or stickers to increase consent around photography. [26:59.210 --> 27:03.330] The problems are that wrists sometimes are out of frame. [27:03.590 --> 27:04.810] People wear long sleeves. [27:05.010 --> 27:06.350] And people have disabilities. [27:06.930 --> 27:10.790] So these wristbands or stickers don't always work. [27:11.030 --> 27:12.030] And yet... [27:12.030 --> 27:14.410] And this has happened to me, where people will... [27:14.410 --> 27:19.750] I'll put a red sticker on my badge that says, I don't want to be photographed. [27:19.750 --> 27:23.270] And yet, someone doesn't see it and they'll post it anyway. [27:23.670 --> 27:25.010] This happens all the time. [27:25.290 --> 27:26.710] So it doesn't always work, right? [27:28.430 --> 27:31.230] Another thing is sensory-friendly environments. [27:31.230 --> 27:33.190] So what is sensory-friendly? [27:33.590 --> 27:40.410] An environment where people are given the sensory input they need to self-regulate and decompress. [27:40.590 --> 27:44.550] An environment that lacks overstimulating sensory input. [27:45.570 --> 27:49.230] So, sensory rooms are... [27:49.770 --> 27:50.790] It's one thing. [27:51.310 --> 27:53.810] But there's also multi-sensory rooms. [27:54.010 --> 27:55.930] And there's also low-sensory rooms. [27:56.310 --> 28:00.550] And the way they're characterized is through active, calming, or hybrid. [28:00.550 --> 28:09.410] So there's an active room that might involve play and toys or stimulating textures. [28:10.190 --> 28:22.130] More calming could be, like, low lighting and, like, very comfy chairs and things like that. [28:23.210 --> 28:26.790] And then there's other kinds of options that you might have. [28:26.790 --> 28:31.090] And you might think of these things as, like, adult play areas. [28:31.490 --> 28:33.850] Which we don't actually have at HOPE. [28:34.090 --> 28:39.170] We don't have, like, a sensory room, which I'm kind of surprised by. [28:39.690 --> 28:47.890] But at BOPS, at NYU, they have a low-sensory space for students, which is really cool. [28:47.890 --> 28:54.450] They've designed multiple rooms that are for students with acute sensory needs. [28:55.250 --> 29:00.730] And libraries are highly, like, used by autistic students. [29:01.490 --> 29:02.930] And it's... [29:02.930 --> 29:14.890] They're an amazing space to incorporate low-sensory rooms and spaces where people can play and relax. [29:16.010 --> 29:22.310] Another thing is that a lot of organizers of events have no training on accessibility. [29:23.110 --> 29:32.710] And so they end up not realizing that the spaces are being accessible even when they're trying to be. [29:32.710 --> 29:42.750] So, I recommend making space in your budget for trainings specifically on accessibility. [29:43.530 --> 29:46.990] And creating trainings focused on them. [29:47.170 --> 29:58.030] And providing event staffs with resources to understand terminology related to different types of disability and accessibility and neurodivergent needs. [29:58.850 --> 30:11.070] Some other topics that might specifically be carried in the trainings are stimming, sensory hypersensitivity, sensory overload, burnout, and autistic burnout. [30:11.450 --> 30:15.230] Gender differences and neurodivergence and cultural relativity. [30:15.710 --> 30:21.610] And I'm gonna publish a bibliography after this talk on all of this. [30:21.610 --> 30:26.930] Because I have, like, this giant bibliography of resources, but I didn't have time for it. [30:27.370 --> 30:36.430] Another thing that you need to be aware of is that many people don't want to tell you what's going on. [30:36.430 --> 30:47.910] And people engage in identity management and information management to conceal and select what they want to tell you. [30:48.310 --> 30:55.990] So, being aware of when and how you are asking people to disclose any aspects of their identity is extremely important. [30:56.190 --> 30:59.670] And I think everyone at HOPE kind of already understands that. [31:01.370 --> 31:11.010] Before an event, asking attendees about their needs is a very important idea. [31:11.450 --> 31:23.630] But in addition to that, actually inviting self-identified disabled and neurodivergent members to participate in the actual planning and compensating them well is important. [31:24.610 --> 31:34.890] So, after the event, creating accessible avenues for actually collecting feedback relating to access and inclusivity. [31:35.170 --> 31:46.010] So, a lot of event surveys are, like, very spammy and they continue to spam you and not really ask the right questions. [31:46.010 --> 31:58.110] But if you ask people about how did our event do in relationship to food, access, other services. [31:58.730 --> 32:05.250] And actually reviewing that feedback and incorporating it into your event organizing. [32:06.170 --> 32:12.050] In addition to that, publishing details about timing and breaks. [32:13.870 --> 32:23.450] And one thing that I've had a real problem with at HOPE is, and maybe I'm doing it too, is people not knowing how to speak into the microphone. [32:23.470 --> 32:25.990] And I have, like, low hearing too. [32:26.170 --> 32:32.610] And I'm like, I kept going like this because I couldn't even hear the Doge speaker guy. [32:32.830 --> 32:38.290] And I was like, is he doing that on purpose or am I just not hearing him? [32:38.290 --> 32:39.110] I'm confused. [32:39.450 --> 32:54.190] And that kept happening, like, where I think that presenters need to be given the information they need to successfully be accessible. [32:54.190 --> 32:59.950] And, uh, interruptions are also an access issue. [33:00.930 --> 33:06.710] Um, sometimes people speak so fast I cannot understand them at all. [33:07.450 --> 33:11.950] Um, I don't think people realize that's an access issue sometimes. [33:12.950 --> 33:24.170] Um, and then also, if a presenter wants to do an interactive thing, they should not require that. [33:24.970 --> 33:30.050] They should make sure that they say that it is entirely optional. [33:30.630 --> 33:39.970] Um, having large text signs, maps, and multiple ways to identify rooms and locations can also be extremely helpful. [33:40.390 --> 33:49.890] In addition to publishing specific guidelines for journalists, filmmakers, and researchers about obtaining consent for different kinds of information collection. [33:51.030 --> 33:55.490] So those are some, uh, things related to documentation. [33:55.530 --> 34:08.190] As far as hybrid events, testing in advance to ensure that online participants and in-person participants can see and hear each other, uh, can be a really nice way to increase access. [34:08.190 --> 34:13.630] Because I think there are online participants, but we don't have any interaction with them. [34:14.530 --> 34:23.150] Um, and then those online participants may be participating online because they have access needs so they're not able to attend in person. [34:23.150 --> 34:28.310] I had to, I had to, I had to go on a ferry, a train, and a bus to get here. [34:28.970 --> 34:31.030] And it took me, like, three hours. [34:31.330 --> 34:33.670] So, like, and I was, like, limping. [34:34.050 --> 34:38.790] So, if some, like, people can't attend these, like, events all the time. [34:38.790 --> 34:41.670] So, how can we make sure that they're included? [34:41.670 --> 34:50.150] Um, and reminding facilitators that the words spoken without a microphone should be repeated by a person with a microphone. [34:50.870 --> 34:58.370] And ensuring that the timing of discussions and breaks are conveyed to in-person and online participants. [34:59.750 --> 35:01.390] The list goes on and on. [35:01.630 --> 35:04.690] I think this is my last slide, and then I want to discuss all this with you. [35:04.830 --> 35:05.970] I think we have time, right? [35:07.350 --> 35:07.830] 236. [35:07.950 --> 35:08.970] How much time do we have? [35:09.090 --> 35:09.770] 236 now. [35:09.990 --> 35:10.410] Oh, perfect. [35:10.830 --> 35:11.250] Okay. [35:12.650 --> 35:20.150] Um, so, as far as in-person events go, um, providing a variety of seating. [35:20.550 --> 35:30.690] So, seating for different sizes, bodies, standing, wheelchair access, making sure there's room for wheelchairs to get in. [35:31.470 --> 35:38.030] Publishing details about food served in advance, which also HOPE is terrible at. [35:38.550 --> 35:42.450] There's, the food is, like, it was so confusing to me. [35:43.510 --> 35:50.770] And, uh, that also can be stressful, because people need to eat. [35:50.950 --> 35:54.390] And then it's like, oh, the food's not around, where do I go? [35:54.390 --> 36:09.150] So, and then also, at Wakeamania, when I went to Poland, they had this, like, really, really fragrant food, which was really nice, but it was also really intense. [36:09.970 --> 36:21.030] And I think that for a conference, it's a good idea to just keep the food a little bit bland, because some strong smells can be really intense. [36:21.730 --> 36:26.450] Including, like, like, really strong onion soup or something like that. [36:27.050 --> 36:30.630] Um, or like tons of garlic may not be a good idea. [36:31.050 --> 36:32.430] Just keeping the food. [36:33.150 --> 36:39.970] Um, publishing what the food is in advance can really help people plan, though. [36:39.970 --> 36:48.910] In, in addition to, uh, fragrance-free policy, and a lot of these things are extremely culturally relative. [36:48.910 --> 36:59.810] And I was discussing this with my friend, um, who's from Iran, and she was just like, well, people wear fragrances. [37:00.890 --> 37:02.430] Like, they do. [37:02.630 --> 37:03.950] And it's just part of culture. [37:03.950 --> 37:07.050] So you can't really set a fragrance-free policy. [37:07.250 --> 37:11.450] But a lot of these things are very culturally relative. [37:11.850 --> 37:23.050] But important things are related to quiet room sensory retreats, which, probably, raise your hand if you know about these, or if you've ever been to one. [37:24.570 --> 37:26.170] Well, actually, a lot of people. [37:26.410 --> 37:29.050] And they're really nice to have at conferences. [37:29.770 --> 37:37.270] Um, having, so, also at Wikimania, there was, like, a light show that was so intense. [37:37.630 --> 37:38.950] I don't... [37:39.610 --> 37:45.210] Thinking about bright lights and natural lighting, I like this room a lot. [37:45.230 --> 37:46.290] It's very nice. [37:47.350 --> 37:53.050] Flash photography policies, noise-canceling headphones, having earplugs available. [37:53.570 --> 37:56.610] HOPE could just have earplugs for people. [37:57.070 --> 37:57.770] That could help. [37:58.470 --> 38:06.630] Um, considering expanding transitions between sessions to give ample time for people to take breaks and not feel rushed. [38:06.930 --> 38:09.810] And offering virtual participation. [38:10.490 --> 38:20.090] Um, so these are a lot of recommendations that are based on evidence and research and I could... I can provide you with the citations. [38:20.410 --> 38:22.190] But, um... [38:22.190 --> 38:24.910] I am really excited to discuss this with you. [38:25.210 --> 38:27.110] And it's not really a Q&A. [38:27.290 --> 38:33.910] I think I would just like to hear from you about any thoughts you have on these matters. [38:33.910 --> 38:38.750] And, uh, um, I'm happy to respond. [38:38.770 --> 38:45.290] But, uh, I think it's a pretty new area as far as neurodiversity. [38:45.870 --> 38:48.830] Probably 30 years of research has been happening. [38:49.090 --> 38:52.450] So, if you want to help moderate, that would be great. [38:52.650 --> 38:52.910] Sure. [38:53.110 --> 38:53.490] Thank you. [38:53.490 --> 38:55.890] Do we have questions or comments about this? [38:56.030 --> 38:56.510] Yeah, right here. [38:58.070 --> 39:00.650] Um, I was just wondering if we could... [39:00.650 --> 39:01.750] Do you have a mic or no? [39:02.750 --> 39:03.490] Do you have one? [39:03.530 --> 39:04.210] I can stand up here. [39:04.810 --> 39:05.210] Or no. [39:06.210 --> 39:06.950] Oh, it's okay. [39:07.310 --> 39:08.690] Okay, we can repeat it. [39:08.850 --> 39:09.010] Yeah. [39:09.010 --> 39:10.730] I was just wondering if your... [39:10.730 --> 39:13.140] Are your experiences on dealing with, um... [39:13.730 --> 39:15.410] So, a disability chafe. [39:15.570 --> 39:17.570] So, you know, where you have... [39:17.570 --> 39:19.930] Where two disabilities have conflicting needs. [39:20.110 --> 39:22.180] So, for example, you're talking about no interruptions. [39:23.010 --> 39:24.370] Where, you know, I... [39:24.370 --> 39:24.610] What... [39:24.610 --> 39:25.010] No interruptions? [39:26.470 --> 39:26.710] Sorry. [39:26.930 --> 39:27.110] Sorry. [39:27.710 --> 39:28.610] I'm so sorry. [39:28.790 --> 39:29.610] And I just interrupted. [39:30.190 --> 39:30.690] Um... [39:30.690 --> 39:31.330] We're all... [39:31.330 --> 39:35.030] You know, one person had a traumatic brain injury. [39:35.030 --> 39:35.790] Which meant... [39:35.790 --> 39:39.050] Very, very difficult for them not to interruptions. [39:39.290 --> 39:40.050] And so, that's... [39:40.050 --> 39:40.610] That's the example. [39:40.750 --> 39:41.710] Or, for example... [39:41.710 --> 39:43.470] If someone is doing vocal stimming. [39:43.590 --> 39:45.530] And somebody has a sensory issue with that. [39:45.670 --> 39:45.750] Or... [39:45.750 --> 39:46.110] Oh, yeah. [39:46.250 --> 39:47.270] Or even just... [39:47.270 --> 39:48.490] Very, very simply... [39:48.490 --> 39:50.510] In terms of, you know, the way... [39:51.130 --> 39:52.010] Runes are organized. [39:52.190 --> 39:53.130] I think navigation for... [39:53.550 --> 39:54.910] For instance, you know... [39:54.910 --> 39:55.210] Uh... [39:55.210 --> 39:56.230] For people who have low vision. [39:56.370 --> 39:57.810] You know, when it's stuff scattered around. [39:57.950 --> 39:58.490] And stuff like that. [39:58.550 --> 39:59.790] It just becomes this... [39:59.790 --> 40:00.810] Very obstacle course. [40:00.910 --> 40:03.130] But for some people, it can be very hard to be... [40:03.130 --> 40:03.810] Contained. [40:03.950 --> 40:04.670] And neat. [40:05.130 --> 40:05.590] And not... [40:05.590 --> 40:05.950] You know... [40:05.950 --> 40:06.910] Take up space. [40:07.350 --> 40:07.850] So, what are your... [40:07.850 --> 40:09.650] What are your experiences with... [40:10.230 --> 40:10.650] Dealing... [40:10.650 --> 40:11.270] Like... [40:11.270 --> 40:11.630] How... [40:11.630 --> 40:13.170] How to resolve those kind of... [40:13.170 --> 40:13.650] And I... [40:13.650 --> 40:14.810] I doubt there's a meta-pulse. [40:15.450 --> 40:15.870] But... [40:29.450 --> 40:29.870] And... [40:29.870 --> 40:31.130] That may be in competition. [40:31.130 --> 40:32.250] I understand as well. [40:32.410 --> 40:33.470] I have a son with autism. [40:33.650 --> 40:34.730] And a daughter with Down syndrome. [40:35.010 --> 40:36.310] And their sensory needs... [40:36.310 --> 40:37.430] Do conflict sometimes. [40:37.650 --> 40:37.970] So, I'm curious. [40:38.030 --> 40:38.310] Go ahead. [40:40.110 --> 40:40.590] Um... [40:40.590 --> 40:40.830] No. [40:41.050 --> 40:42.510] And anyone else in the room? [40:42.870 --> 40:44.330] Want to speak on this? [40:44.570 --> 40:44.730] Yeah. [40:45.050 --> 40:45.510] My mom. [40:45.870 --> 40:46.350] Okay. [40:46.590 --> 40:47.630] Two things that come to mind. [40:48.010 --> 40:49.670] As far as earplugs... [40:49.670 --> 40:50.330] It wasn't... [40:50.330 --> 40:52.730] It wasn't sanctioned by HOPE. [40:52.730 --> 40:55.110] But in the main building... [40:55.110 --> 40:55.650] The... [40:55.650 --> 40:57.310] Ray-shaped guys are handing out... [40:57.310 --> 40:58.550] Earplugs were free by the... [40:58.550 --> 40:59.130] Oh, and I understand. [40:59.250 --> 41:00.390] So, they were available. [41:00.830 --> 41:02.190] Also, as far as... [41:02.190 --> 41:02.950] Other sites had... [41:02.950 --> 41:03.690] Tend to feed... [41:03.690 --> 41:04.130] Deep renewal... [41:04.130 --> 41:05.410] Diversion people... [41:05.410 --> 41:06.210] Disc would be... [41:06.210 --> 41:07.430] To attract them like a magnet. [41:07.970 --> 41:08.490] All right. [41:08.770 --> 41:09.330] So... [41:09.330 --> 41:10.230] Uh... [41:10.230 --> 41:11.470] Someone in the front... [41:11.470 --> 41:12.870] Has commented on how there... [41:12.870 --> 41:15.030] Actually are earplugs available... [41:15.030 --> 41:16.010] From... [41:16.010 --> 41:16.490] Uh... [41:16.490 --> 41:17.390] Some... [41:17.390 --> 41:18.690] Different areas... [41:18.690 --> 41:19.430] In HOPE. [41:19.550 --> 41:20.270] Which is... [41:20.270 --> 41:20.570] Great. [41:20.570 --> 41:21.910] And... [41:21.910 --> 41:23.710] Going back to the... [41:23.710 --> 41:24.750] Discussion about... [41:25.430 --> 41:25.970] Um... [41:25.970 --> 41:26.730] Competing needs... [41:27.750 --> 41:29.610] Living in community... [41:29.610 --> 41:31.490] We're going to have competing needs. [41:32.510 --> 41:32.850] And... [41:33.190 --> 41:34.570] This, I think, goes back to... [41:36.190 --> 41:36.870] My... [41:36.870 --> 41:38.430] One of my first slides... [41:38.430 --> 41:39.230] Just thinking about... [41:39.230 --> 41:40.250] What are our values... [41:40.250 --> 41:41.570] And how do we... [41:43.130 --> 41:43.810] Um... [41:43.810 --> 41:45.590] How do we... [41:46.970 --> 41:47.650] How... [41:47.650 --> 41:48.050] How... [41:48.050 --> 41:48.350] How... [41:48.350 --> 41:49.990] How do we live together... [41:49.990 --> 41:50.990] And... [41:51.610 --> 41:51.670] And... [41:51.670 --> 41:53.310] No one's ever going to... [41:53.310 --> 41:54.070] Have everything... [41:54.730 --> 41:55.390] Exactly... [41:56.150 --> 41:56.810] But... [41:56.810 --> 41:58.990] We can collaborate together... [41:59.570 --> 42:00.230] And... [42:00.790 --> 42:01.210] Uh... [42:01.210 --> 42:02.110] Through compassionate... [42:03.570 --> 42:04.890] Communication... [42:04.890 --> 42:05.970] Um... [42:05.970 --> 42:07.510] Represent... [42:07.510 --> 42:08.310] I love... [42:08.310 --> 42:10.490] Nonviolent communication... [42:10.490 --> 42:11.490] It's... [42:11.490 --> 42:13.250] Expressing your needs... [42:13.250 --> 42:14.930] And your requests... [42:14.930 --> 42:15.810] So... [42:15.810 --> 42:18.030] This is what I need right now... [42:19.090 --> 42:19.610] Okay... [42:19.610 --> 42:20.790] These are my needs... [42:20.790 --> 42:22.590] And this is what I need from you... [42:22.590 --> 42:24.410] These are my requests from you... [42:25.130 --> 42:25.650] So... [42:25.650 --> 42:28.930] Vocalizing these things, I think, can help people understand... [42:29.790 --> 42:33.770] But then sometimes people don't want to vocalize it... [42:33.770 --> 42:34.930] Because you're camouflaging... [42:35.750 --> 42:40.130] And you don't want others to know that you have something going on... [42:40.130 --> 42:41.290] So... [42:42.330 --> 42:42.950] Um... [42:42.950 --> 42:43.950] I don't know... [42:43.950 --> 42:45.990] I'm curious if anyone else... [42:45.990 --> 42:47.470] In the back... [42:47.470 --> 42:48.170] Well... [42:48.170 --> 42:49.130] So if... [42:49.870 --> 42:50.290] It... [42:50.290 --> 42:52.250] That's not all on the present curve... [42:52.250 --> 42:53.170] And it's... [42:53.170 --> 42:53.930] Also... [42:53.930 --> 42:55.990] Partly on the people with the needs... [42:55.990 --> 42:57.390] Gamayak Aditi needs... [42:57.390 --> 43:00.170] Then the solution there would be to create a culture... [43:01.250 --> 43:01.770] Of... [43:02.470 --> 43:02.990] Acceptance... [43:02.990 --> 43:03.730] Needs... [43:04.530 --> 43:05.050] Mediation... [43:05.050 --> 43:06.410] So the comment here... [43:06.730 --> 43:07.150] In the back... [43:07.150 --> 43:07.730] From the back... [43:07.730 --> 43:08.750] Was about... [43:08.750 --> 43:09.750] Uh... [43:09.750 --> 43:10.730] Working together... [43:10.730 --> 43:11.610] To communicate... [43:11.610 --> 43:12.450] The needs... [43:12.450 --> 43:13.150] With speaker... [43:13.150 --> 43:14.650] And those who have the needs... [43:14.650 --> 43:16.010] Of creating a culture... [43:16.010 --> 43:16.650] Maybe... [43:16.650 --> 43:17.730] Not directly... [43:17.730 --> 43:18.750] Communicating... [43:18.750 --> 43:20.050] But the comment was about... [43:20.050 --> 43:21.390] Creating a culture so that... [43:21.390 --> 43:22.170] There's an awareness... [43:22.170 --> 43:23.130] Of... [43:23.130 --> 43:24.170] Of these dynamics... [43:25.170 --> 43:25.690] Perhaps... [43:25.690 --> 43:26.170] Love that... [43:27.850 --> 43:28.370] Yeah... [43:28.370 --> 43:28.890] Any other comments? [43:28.910 --> 43:29.310] Right here... [43:29.310 --> 43:29.910] Right here... [43:29.910 --> 43:30.750] I know... [43:30.750 --> 43:32.230] I asked about... [43:34.010 --> 43:35.050] Mobility access... [43:35.050 --> 43:35.330] You know... [43:35.330 --> 43:35.850] Issues... [43:35.850 --> 43:36.530] And then... [43:36.530 --> 43:37.590] And here... [43:37.590 --> 43:38.930] They have the security person... [43:38.930 --> 43:39.330] Or whatever... [43:39.330 --> 43:40.450] Who's involved with that... [43:40.450 --> 43:40.950] That I guess... [43:40.950 --> 43:41.710] Also means... [43:41.710 --> 43:42.370] To have someone... [43:42.370 --> 43:43.630] Who just kind of will... [43:43.630 --> 43:44.790] Field any kind of... [43:44.790 --> 43:45.610] Disposal related... [43:45.610 --> 43:47.070] Issue of movement... [43:47.070 --> 43:48.150] Someone applying... [43:48.150 --> 43:48.870] You can have someone... [43:48.870 --> 43:49.550] And help... [43:49.550 --> 43:50.810] Navigate person... [43:50.810 --> 43:51.910] To the spot... [43:51.910 --> 43:52.570] You know... [43:52.570 --> 43:53.490] Where this happened... [43:53.490 --> 43:54.550] For a venue... [43:54.550 --> 43:55.130] You know... [43:55.130 --> 43:55.730] That would be... [43:55.730 --> 43:56.690] One thing... [43:57.400 --> 43:58.050] I guess... [43:58.050 --> 43:59.010] If someone... [43:59.550 --> 43:59.950] Has... [44:00.830 --> 44:01.410] Vocalizations... [44:01.410 --> 44:02.270] It's a matter of whether... [44:02.270 --> 44:03.350] Space will... [44:03.350 --> 44:03.810] Kind of... [44:03.810 --> 44:04.830] It was that... [44:04.830 --> 44:05.230] For... [44:05.230 --> 44:06.410] If they might want to have... [44:06.410 --> 44:07.350] A remote place... [44:07.350 --> 44:07.670] Where they... [44:07.670 --> 44:08.890] Want to go... [44:08.890 --> 44:09.110] I don't... [44:09.110 --> 44:10.170] That's what they feel... [44:10.170 --> 44:11.070] Is to be helpful... [44:11.070 --> 44:11.770] For them... [44:11.770 --> 44:12.810] You know... [44:12.810 --> 44:13.550] Because we have... [44:13.550 --> 44:14.970] You know... [44:14.970 --> 44:15.590] The other... [44:15.590 --> 44:17.010] A live stream of... [44:17.010 --> 44:17.170] Of the... [44:17.170 --> 44:17.910] Of the... [44:17.910 --> 44:18.930] The talks here... [44:18.930 --> 44:19.770] So they did... [44:19.770 --> 44:20.730] Access area... [44:22.090 --> 44:22.810] And... [44:22.810 --> 44:23.750] Oh yeah... [44:23.750 --> 44:24.550] That's great... [44:24.550 --> 44:25.450] Yeah... [44:25.450 --> 44:26.370] So the comment here... [44:26.370 --> 44:27.110] Was around... [44:27.110 --> 44:28.430] A coordinated effort... [44:28.430 --> 44:28.790] To... [44:28.790 --> 44:29.930] To address disability... [44:29.930 --> 44:30.690] On a broader... [44:30.690 --> 44:31.330] Level... [44:31.330 --> 44:32.750] How a conference like... [44:32.750 --> 44:33.090] HOPE... [44:33.090 --> 44:33.350] Could... [44:33.350 --> 44:34.030] Could do... [44:34.030 --> 44:34.890] Could do more there... [44:34.890 --> 44:35.610] Perhaps... [44:35.610 --> 44:36.270] To... [44:36.270 --> 44:36.870] To address both... [44:36.870 --> 44:37.870] The physical disability... [44:37.870 --> 44:39.130] Access needs... [44:39.130 --> 44:40.230] But all these... [44:40.230 --> 44:40.590] Other issues... [44:40.590 --> 44:42.150] We've talked about here today... [44:42.150 --> 44:42.830] Well... [44:42.830 --> 44:43.130] Also... [44:43.130 --> 44:43.830] I love the idea... [44:43.830 --> 44:44.930] Of having like... [44:44.930 --> 44:45.550] A... [44:45.550 --> 44:45.950] Kind of... [44:45.950 --> 44:47.050] A room... [44:47.050 --> 44:48.410] Where you can see the talks... [44:48.410 --> 44:50.190] But it's at the conference... [44:50.850 --> 44:51.970] Like a... [44:51.970 --> 44:53.550] Like a waiting room... [44:53.550 --> 44:54.410] Where there's... [44:54.410 --> 44:55.910] A live stream going on... [44:55.910 --> 44:56.470] But it's like... [44:56.470 --> 44:57.390] A little more quiet... [44:57.390 --> 44:58.290] Great idea... [44:58.290 --> 44:58.870] Or... [44:58.870 --> 44:59.690] For people who just... [44:59.690 --> 45:01.130] Don't want to make that transition... [45:01.130 --> 45:01.530] You know... [45:01.530 --> 45:02.190] It is... [45:02.190 --> 45:03.150] It is a lot... [45:03.150 --> 45:03.390] You know... [45:03.390 --> 45:04.390] The visible mobility... [45:04.390 --> 45:04.930] You mentioned... [45:04.930 --> 45:06.190] Is certainly a lot... [45:06.190 --> 45:06.790] To get... [45:06.790 --> 45:07.430] For certain folks... [45:07.430 --> 45:08.350] To get from one place... [45:08.350 --> 45:09.150] To another... [45:09.150 --> 45:09.750] Happening a place... [45:09.750 --> 45:10.510] Where they could just... [45:10.510 --> 45:11.130] Tune in... [45:11.130 --> 45:11.910] Yeah... [45:11.910 --> 45:12.690] I like that... [45:12.690 --> 45:13.590] Anyone else? [45:15.490 --> 45:16.630] It's sort of... [45:16.630 --> 45:17.430] Not... [45:18.570 --> 45:19.390] I've had a... [45:19.390 --> 45:20.730] You should experience... [45:20.730 --> 45:21.550] A few years ago... [45:21.550 --> 45:22.050] At Dolly... [45:22.050 --> 45:22.970] The... [45:25.650 --> 45:26.130] The... [45:26.130 --> 45:26.790] That... [45:26.790 --> 45:28.130] Was amazing... [45:28.950 --> 45:29.530] Like... [45:29.530 --> 45:31.670] My son's at the stake... [45:31.670 --> 45:32.250] And... [45:32.250 --> 45:32.950] We used to... [45:32.950 --> 45:33.130] Like... [45:33.130 --> 45:33.990] Weeding lines... [45:33.990 --> 45:34.750] And all that stuff... [45:34.750 --> 45:35.050] The... [45:36.850 --> 45:37.450] Situation... [45:37.450 --> 45:38.570] And... [45:38.570 --> 45:39.250] Like... [45:39.250 --> 45:39.970] We went in... [45:39.970 --> 45:40.430] Went into... [45:40.430 --> 45:40.750] The... [45:41.400 --> 45:42.610] One person... [45:42.610 --> 45:44.310] Talked for what I've been to work... [45:44.310 --> 45:45.480] Didn't have to prove anything... [45:46.010 --> 45:46.290] It's like... [45:46.290 --> 45:46.750] I'll take this... [45:46.750 --> 45:48.190] This is all grab... [45:48.190 --> 45:49.490] But he has all the information... [45:49.490 --> 45:50.430] The guides... [45:51.650 --> 45:52.110] And... [45:52.110 --> 45:52.430] We... [45:52.990 --> 45:53.670] Going through the... [45:53.670 --> 45:54.430] The accessibility entrance... [45:55.170 --> 45:55.490] With... [45:55.490 --> 45:56.430] The whole family... [45:57.150 --> 45:58.350] Just one of them... [45:58.350 --> 45:58.550] Right... [45:58.550 --> 45:59.110] You know... [45:59.110 --> 46:00.930] And it was just like... [46:02.050 --> 46:02.510] They're... [46:02.510 --> 46:03.470] Very well... [46:03.470 --> 46:04.370] Well thought out... [46:04.370 --> 46:04.590] Like... [46:04.590 --> 46:06.490] The whole program seemed to really... [46:06.490 --> 46:07.190] Well... [46:07.190 --> 46:08.190] No design... [46:08.190 --> 46:08.870] Yeah... [46:08.870 --> 46:09.930] So our comment here... [46:09.930 --> 46:11.970] Was from someone who visited Dollywood... [46:11.970 --> 46:12.610] I gotta say... [46:12.610 --> 46:13.810] This makes me really excited... [46:13.810 --> 46:14.790] As a Tennessean... [46:14.790 --> 46:15.990] To hear that report... [46:15.990 --> 46:16.590] I know... [46:16.590 --> 46:17.070] You know... [46:17.070 --> 46:18.310] I call her Aunt Dolly... [46:18.310 --> 46:19.110] In our house... [46:19.110 --> 46:20.250] We love her... [46:20.250 --> 46:20.650] And... [46:20.650 --> 46:22.490] We have plans to visit Dollywood... [46:22.490 --> 46:23.110] This fall... [46:23.110 --> 46:23.450] So... [46:23.450 --> 46:24.610] Glad to hear that... [46:24.610 --> 46:25.710] That they're doing great work... [46:25.710 --> 46:27.130] On accessibility there... [46:27.130 --> 46:27.850] We should... [46:27.850 --> 46:29.690] Take some notes from Dollywood... [46:29.690 --> 46:30.490] Well... [46:30.490 --> 46:31.030] Also... [46:31.030 --> 46:31.590] The... [46:31.590 --> 46:33.070] Comment was about... [46:33.070 --> 46:33.630] The... [46:33.630 --> 46:34.670] Entrances... [46:34.670 --> 46:35.850] And just... [46:35.850 --> 46:37.710] Making people feel like... [46:37.710 --> 46:38.850] Just very natural... [46:38.870 --> 46:39.230] Right? [46:39.390 --> 46:40.410] Right when they come in... [46:40.410 --> 46:41.950] Which I think is a big thing... [46:41.950 --> 46:42.470] Is... [46:42.470 --> 46:43.790] Not making... [46:43.790 --> 46:44.430] Like... [46:44.430 --> 46:45.690] People feel... [46:46.610 --> 46:47.090] Alienated... [46:47.090 --> 46:48.890] Just making it very natural... [46:49.630 --> 46:50.110] Yeah... [46:52.230 --> 46:52.710] Yeah... [46:52.710 --> 46:54.630] And it's not just like a ramp... [46:54.630 --> 46:55.050] Or something... [46:55.050 --> 46:56.910] Like a ramp is like a good thing... [46:56.910 --> 46:57.390] But like... [46:57.390 --> 46:58.870] We're talking about more than that... [46:58.870 --> 46:59.150] Yeah... [46:59.550 --> 46:59.990] Yeah... [46:59.990 --> 47:00.510] Now... [47:00.510 --> 47:00.950] Oh... [47:00.950 --> 47:03.670] The person next to... [47:03.670 --> 47:04.210] The person that... [47:04.210 --> 47:04.550] Yeah... [47:05.910 --> 47:06.790] Yeah... [47:06.790 --> 47:07.410] Very... [47:07.410 --> 47:07.970] Very... [47:07.970 --> 47:08.850] Interesting... [47:08.850 --> 47:09.970] Good topic... [47:09.970 --> 47:10.210] So... [47:10.210 --> 47:10.450] Yeah... [47:10.450 --> 47:11.770] I'm obviously now thinking about... [47:11.770 --> 47:12.610] My organization... [47:12.610 --> 47:12.870] She... [47:12.870 --> 47:14.190] Already dense... [47:14.190 --> 47:15.330] There's not... [47:15.330 --> 47:16.670] So many... [47:16.670 --> 47:17.230] Hard scale... [47:17.230 --> 47:18.030] Accurate... [47:18.030 --> 47:19.330] HOPE... [47:19.330 --> 47:20.710] DEFCON... [47:20.710 --> 47:21.150] There's... [47:21.150 --> 47:22.450] Computer Congress... [47:23.250 --> 47:23.730] With... [47:23.730 --> 47:25.550] Free software conferences... [47:25.550 --> 47:26.130] There are various... [47:26.130 --> 47:27.210] Open-source conferences... [47:27.210 --> 47:27.570] Obviously... [47:28.450 --> 47:29.070] Wikipedia... [47:29.070 --> 47:31.390] Of the conferences... [47:31.390 --> 47:32.510] And also like... [47:32.510 --> 47:33.150] Communities... [47:33.150 --> 47:34.230] You've interacted with... [47:34.870 --> 47:37.050] Which ones have been... [47:37.050 --> 47:38.450] The best... [47:38.450 --> 47:38.930] At... [47:38.930 --> 47:40.070] Being accessible... [47:41.250 --> 47:41.770] I... [47:41.770 --> 47:42.250] Okay... [47:42.250 --> 47:42.990] So the... [47:42.990 --> 47:44.490] The question was... [47:44.490 --> 47:46.170] Of all the different... [47:46.170 --> 47:46.690] There's... [47:46.690 --> 47:47.730] There's HOPE... [47:47.730 --> 47:48.730] There's DEFCON... [47:48.730 --> 47:50.070] There's... [47:50.070 --> 47:50.750] Um... [47:50.750 --> 47:51.750] Uh... [47:51.750 --> 47:52.430] Uh... [47:52.930 --> 47:53.450] Chaos... [47:53.890 --> 47:54.410] There's... [47:54.410 --> 47:55.950] Open-source conferences... [47:55.950 --> 47:56.350] There's... [47:56.670 --> 47:57.950] Boss Dem... [47:57.950 --> 47:59.770] Probably more in Europe... [47:59.770 --> 48:00.590] But... [48:00.590 --> 48:02.030] The question was... [48:02.030 --> 48:02.970] What is the best one? [48:03.110 --> 48:03.970] And I would say... [48:03.970 --> 48:04.330] The... [48:04.330 --> 48:05.730] 100% best one... [48:05.730 --> 48:07.070] It's not a hacker conference... [48:07.070 --> 48:07.770] But... [48:07.770 --> 48:09.090] Society of the Disabilities... [48:09.090 --> 48:11.890] Society for the Disability Studies... [48:11.890 --> 48:13.950] Is so amazing... [48:14.650 --> 48:15.950] They have... [48:17.110 --> 48:17.830] Um... [48:17.830 --> 48:18.950] They have a party... [48:19.490 --> 48:20.330] That's... [48:20.330 --> 48:21.030] Live... [48:21.030 --> 48:22.090] They have... [48:22.090 --> 48:23.170] Live caption... [48:23.910 --> 48:24.350] Or... [48:24.350 --> 48:24.790] Live... [48:24.790 --> 48:25.170] What is it? [48:25.750 --> 48:26.110] Uh... [48:26.110 --> 48:27.650] Visual description... [48:27.950 --> 48:29.870] Of the DJ... [48:29.870 --> 48:30.730] And... [48:30.730 --> 48:31.850] Of the music... [48:31.850 --> 48:32.530] Too... [48:32.530 --> 48:33.850] And like... [48:33.850 --> 48:34.770] It's... [48:34.770 --> 48:36.210] Um... [48:36.210 --> 48:38.170] All different modalities... [48:38.170 --> 48:38.490] And... [48:38.490 --> 48:39.830] It's so beautiful... [48:39.830 --> 48:40.650] I think... [48:40.650 --> 48:42.430] I think it... [48:43.810 --> 48:44.690] Um... [48:44.690 --> 48:47.890] The more modalities there are... [48:47.890 --> 48:49.950] I think the more beautiful it can be... [48:50.490 --> 48:51.330] Is... [48:51.330 --> 48:51.750] Um... [48:51.750 --> 48:53.130] Even if you don't... [48:53.130 --> 48:54.470] Even if you don't know... [48:54.710 --> 48:54.910] Simon... [48:54.910 --> 48:55.770] Which happens... [48:55.770 --> 48:56.030] Simon... [48:56.030 --> 48:58.130] Can help you understand... [49:01.110 --> 49:01.930] All right... [49:01.930 --> 49:02.110] Well... [49:02.110 --> 49:02.690] We're at time... [49:03.770 --> 49:04.450] Uh... [49:04.450 --> 49:04.730] Does... [49:04.730 --> 49:05.670] Does anyone have... [49:05.670 --> 49:06.250] Um... [49:06.250 --> 49:07.230] One last question... [49:07.230 --> 49:07.910] Maybe... [49:08.610 --> 49:09.750] Or comment... [49:09.750 --> 49:10.350] Or comment... [49:10.350 --> 49:11.510] Right here... [49:11.510 --> 49:12.110] I was... [49:12.110 --> 49:12.490] I'm... [49:12.490 --> 49:14.850] I'm curious about the difference between... [49:14.850 --> 49:15.110] Like... [49:15.110 --> 49:15.810] I had two... [49:15.810 --> 49:17.050] Interesting experiences... [49:17.050 --> 49:18.890] This year was the photo I was taking... [49:19.510 --> 49:20.810] Because like... [49:20.810 --> 49:21.210] Like... [49:21.210 --> 49:22.210] One of them was like... [49:22.210 --> 49:23.850] Going to an NYU... [49:23.850 --> 49:24.230] Like... [49:24.230 --> 49:24.810] Summer school... [49:24.810 --> 49:25.210] Where they're... [49:25.210 --> 49:25.330] They... [49:25.330 --> 49:25.730] They... [49:25.730 --> 49:26.350] They have the like... [49:26.350 --> 49:26.810] Red... [49:26.810 --> 49:27.150] Lanyards... [49:27.150 --> 49:27.630] If you were... [49:27.630 --> 49:28.030] But like... [49:28.590 --> 49:28.990] Literally... [49:28.990 --> 49:29.530] And it was like... [49:29.530 --> 49:30.590] 150 people... [49:30.590 --> 49:30.890] And... [49:30.890 --> 49:31.190] I could... [49:31.190 --> 49:32.450] The only one I ever saw... [49:32.450 --> 49:32.690] Where... [49:32.690 --> 49:33.070] Ever... [49:33.070 --> 49:34.730] And so it was really interesting... [49:34.730 --> 49:35.710] Because like... [49:35.710 --> 49:37.210] The pot over would come in the room... [49:37.210 --> 49:37.770] I would like... [49:37.770 --> 49:38.970] Find my redищday carrier coming... [49:38.970 --> 49:39.450] Put it on... [49:39.450 --> 49:40.290] And then they had this... [49:40.290 --> 49:41.250] Huge DSL hole in... [49:41.250 --> 49:41.650] In the room... [49:41.650 --> 49:42.730] And they would leave the room... [49:42.730 --> 49:43.070] Cuz... [49:43.070 --> 49:43.410] I mean... [49:43.410 --> 49:44.030] It was really like... [49:44.030 --> 49:44.170] That pot... [49:44.170 --> 49:44.530] I don't know... [49:44.530 --> 49:46.510] But then... [49:46.510 --> 49:48.230] I had another experience at... [49:48.230 --> 49:48.870] SeaBase... [49:48.870 --> 49:49.070] In... [49:49.070 --> 49:49.630] In... [49:49.630 --> 49:50.390] In AleMרא mehr... [49:50.390 --> 49:50.930] Where it's like... [49:50.930 --> 49:52.410] It had a really intense... [49:52.410 --> 49:53.130] Just like... [49:53.130 --> 49:54.930] Super default enough photos... [49:54.930 --> 49:55.850] Like culture... [49:55.850 --> 49:57.050] They're just like... [49:57.050 --> 49:58.230] Everyone will freak out... [49:58.230 --> 49:59.090] If you take out your photos... [49:59.090 --> 49:59.750] And get a photo... [49:59.750 --> 50:00.910] And thus it's very clear... [50:00.910 --> 50:01.930] That you are taking a photo of... [50:01.930 --> 50:03.490] Something with different people... [50:03.490 --> 50:04.970] It was really interesting. [50:05.130 --> 50:10.410] It's kind of the same idea, same sensitivity, but they handled it two really different ways. [50:10.610 --> 50:17.690] Obviously, if you defaulted to not being for photos, like NYU promo for the thing that they're having. [50:17.890 --> 50:18.330] I don't know. [50:18.410 --> 50:27.230] I'm just curious about different ways in which the default can be one way versus having a negative versus positive default, you would say, right? [50:27.230 --> 50:41.510] The comment was about sort of red lanyards and different lanyard usage and how sometimes people don't opt in to use the lanyards and then it's like you're kind of on your own. [50:41.730 --> 50:44.450] Like you might be the only one wearing the red lanyard. [50:45.710 --> 50:48.870] And yet there is... wait, say it, I guess? [50:48.870 --> 50:57.550] Which is like compared to having an experience at a different space where it's just like there's like a very intense no photos default. [50:57.550 --> 50:58.090] Oh, yeah. [50:58.350 --> 50:59.650] Ask someone, go ahead and do your... [50:59.650 --> 51:00.090] Oh, yeah. [51:00.290 --> 51:08.950] So like in comparison to an intense situation where there's like a no photos policy. [51:12.470 --> 51:17.730] And I think we need to discuss these policies amongst ourselves. [51:17.730 --> 51:24.310] We're probably out of time, but I... it seems like at home people don't really take photos. [51:24.690 --> 51:28.610] I don't know if that's the policy or if that's just the default, but uh... [51:29.370 --> 51:37.010] Um, I know with Wikipedia, that's people take so many photos and it had so many people upload photos of me that I don't want. [51:37.910 --> 51:39.830] And, uh, so it really depends. [51:40.050 --> 51:41.430] And thank you so much for your time. [51:41.630 --> 51:42.650] Thank you for being able.