[04:32.320 --> 04:34.220]  It intimidates the audience.
[04:34.440 --> 04:35.860]  I think they can hear us now.
[04:36.160 --> 04:36.440]  Hi.
[04:36.780 --> 04:38.040]  So don't say those things anymore.
[04:39.480 --> 04:40.300]  Hello, everyone.
[04:40.840 --> 04:44.780]  I can't see you because of this brilliant light in my face, but I think there's people out there.
[04:44.980 --> 04:45.720]  Make it stop.
[04:45.920 --> 04:47.740]  And the occasional wise guy with the laser pen.
[04:49.000 --> 04:52.020]  This is the 2600 panel, and this is the 2600 webpage.
[04:57.140 --> 04:58.860]  Perhaps somebody would care to explain.
[05:00.140 --> 05:02.200]  The new issue of 2600 is out.
[05:02.320 --> 05:05.620]  And for some reason, people are confusing it with another magazine.
[05:06.320 --> 05:07.420]  I don't know why.
[05:08.580 --> 05:14.740]  And this one is out, and it's free, so if you're kind of cautious, you've never heard of us before, and you don't want to buy something, just take this.
[05:14.860 --> 05:15.220]  They're free.
[05:15.360 --> 05:17.740]  And it's got a cool picture of this building on the front.
[05:20.840 --> 05:21.580]  We're all here.
[05:21.900 --> 05:24.660]  We're all affiliated with the magazine in some way or another.
[05:26.040 --> 05:30.140]  So I'm going to let people introduce themselves and say just who they are.
[05:30.140 --> 05:33.520]  Oh, I'm Emmanuel, and I'm the editor and one of the co-founders.
[05:34.780 --> 05:38.460]  And we'll start over there on the left and go around.
[05:42.340 --> 05:43.320]  Girls first, huh?
[05:43.740 --> 05:44.380]  I'm Pam.
[05:45.000 --> 05:46.540]  Lots of you have seen mail from me.
[05:47.360 --> 05:50.320]  I've done a lot of stuff for this conference, and I'm really, really tired.
[05:50.480 --> 05:51.540]  I didn't want to go first.
[05:52.300 --> 05:54.440]  This conference would not exist without Pam.
[06:03.870 --> 06:04.670]  I'm Dave.
[06:05.670 --> 06:06.330]  Hi, Dave.
[06:06.450 --> 06:09.410]  And I'm the other co-founder of 2600.
[06:10.850 --> 06:15.410]  I should point out that Dave was the one who came up with the name 2600, which I hated.
[06:17.410 --> 06:20.230]  Actually, AT&T came up with the name 2600.
[06:21.410 --> 06:27.730]  Actually, also, Dave suggested that we hold the next conference at this place called the Puck Building, which I had never heard of.
[06:28.570 --> 06:30.710]  So, uh, again, we owe something to him.
[06:31.470 --> 06:32.930]  I'm the idea man.
[06:33.110 --> 06:33.390]  Yes.
[06:35.170 --> 06:36.670]  Who is this person next to you?
[06:38.570 --> 06:39.410]  Secret guest.
[06:40.710 --> 06:42.390]  Uh, I'm Bernie S.
[06:55.340 --> 06:56.700]  And I'm shocked.
[06:57.160 --> 07:04.420]  No, actually, I, uh, wish to thank the, uh, United States, uh, Office of Probation for allowing me to come here this evening.
[07:07.120 --> 07:13.600]  And, uh, I guess, uh, my association with 2600 goes back, what, about 10 years, I guess.
[07:14.460 --> 07:16.960]  And, uh, I'm overwhelmed.
[07:17.500 --> 07:19.320]  So, take it away.
[07:21.140 --> 07:21.400]  Hi.
[07:21.800 --> 07:25.180]  I'm Ben Sherman, also known as Joe630.
[07:25.580 --> 07:30.920]  Um, you can find my name under the layout title of the magazine for the past several issues.
[07:30.920 --> 07:37.580]  I've been working with 2600 for about four or five years now, and now I just make it pretty.
[07:38.940 --> 07:40.920]  Uh, hi.
[07:41.160 --> 07:43.040]  My name is Dave, and I'm a hacker.
[07:43.300 --> 07:47.280]  I'm also an accountant, and I do the second set of books for 2600.
[07:54.330 --> 08:02.950]  Um, I'm Kiratoy, I manage the, uh, the website and all of the front covers, color correction, photo compositing, that kind of stuff.
[08:12.680 --> 08:18.240]  Hi, I'm Scott, um, I'd like to dispense with this chit-chat for a minute, um, because I'm a little upset about something.
[08:18.780 --> 08:22.040]  Now, eight months ago, I, I did a really good hack.
[08:22.740 --> 08:33.940]  Uh, I hid a secret message in a book published by a major publishing company in New York City, and no one, none of you, have found it.
[08:34.860 --> 08:45.940]  And, uh, I'm a little upset because I, I, this was a long time in the making, it's there, it's on the shelf, and it's a bonafide secret message, if my, uh, if the publisher ever found out, they'd be sued.
[08:46.320 --> 08:47.540]  I'd probably be incarcerated.
[08:48.120 --> 08:49.480]  What, uh, what's going on here?
[08:51.260 --> 08:52.840]  Who here has time to read books?
[08:52.860 --> 08:56.320]  Well, now, if I told you the book, you know, you'd all run out and find it.
[08:57.040 --> 09:03.200]  It's, uh, it's about computers, it's fiction, and, uh, it's, uh, it's unmistakable.
[09:03.540 --> 09:04.880]  Tell them the publisher.
[09:04.900 --> 09:05.480]  Tell them the font.
[09:05.640 --> 09:07.380]  If I tell the publisher, uh, I don't know.
[09:08.500 --> 09:09.360]  No comment.
[09:09.520 --> 09:11.000]  Anyway, on to Mark.
[09:12.640 --> 09:13.220]  Hi.
[09:14.380 --> 09:16.960]  Before I spill my soda, I'm Mark.
[09:17.420 --> 09:23.860]  Uh, I'm also known as, as, uh, Phiber Optik for, for, uh, reasons I can't really remember.
[09:25.140 --> 09:25.720]  Yay.
[09:26.700 --> 09:27.280]  Um.
[09:35.190 --> 09:36.430]  Thank you, thank you.
[09:37.430 --> 09:42.470]  Um, I, I, uh, sort of co-help with network operations.
[09:42.470 --> 09:47.270]  At 2600 when I'm, I'm not busy out saving the world for some reason or another.
[09:47.990 --> 09:51.710]  Um, why, why isn't the other member of network operations up here?
[09:52.750 --> 09:53.390]  Which one?
[09:53.870 --> 09:54.250]  You know.
[09:55.250 --> 09:56.050]  Manos the technician.
[09:56.430 --> 09:56.950]  Ah, Manos.
[09:57.130 --> 09:58.470]  He's in the can right now.
[09:58.650 --> 09:58.830]  Oh, really?
[09:58.830 --> 09:59.730]  He said he'd be here shortly.
[10:01.830 --> 10:04.270]  He should at least stand up and be recognized or something.
[10:04.310 --> 10:05.710]  I think he's in the network room.
[10:05.710 --> 10:06.210]  Oh, okay.
[10:06.210 --> 10:07.070]  And tearing someone's hair out.
[10:07.150 --> 10:07.230]  I don't know.
[10:07.230 --> 10:07.950]  So he's missing out.
[10:08.310 --> 10:08.450]  Yeah.
[10:08.850 --> 10:12.310]  Uh, but anyway, so, that's what I do for 2600 most of the time.
[10:12.490 --> 10:18.610]  Also, you can read my, my, uh, article about, uh, GSM coming to North America and the latest issue of 2600.
[10:19.250 --> 10:21.250]  Which I'm sure you'll find to be a real hoot.
[10:23.030 --> 10:25.170]  Does anybody not know what GSM is?
[10:25.850 --> 10:27.190]  It's nothing to be ashamed of.
[10:28.350 --> 10:29.830]  They all know what GSM is.
[10:29.950 --> 10:31.670]  Okay, there's a couple of ignorant people out there.
[10:32.130 --> 10:32.270]  Well.
[10:32.510 --> 10:35.970]  You can ask the, uh, person sitting next to you who didn't raise their hand.
[10:36.090 --> 10:36.490]  It looks funny.
[10:36.670 --> 10:39.710]  Why don't you give us a little preview of tomorrow night's panel on GSM.
[10:39.810 --> 10:40.350]  What is GSM?
[10:40.910 --> 10:41.350]  Okay.
[10:43.090 --> 10:44.830]  A little GSM music, please.
[10:46.170 --> 10:52.310]  GSM is, uh, a new digital technology that's been around in Europe for about 10 years.
[10:52.670 --> 11:01.010]  But since we live in the United States and the industry is generally stupider here, we haven't actually gotten it until fairly recently.
[11:01.210 --> 11:02.690]  This is a GSM phone.
[11:02.930 --> 11:16.690]  It kind of looks like a regular mobile phone, only it's not, because it uses encryption algorithms that make it a tad more secure than what you're probably used to in your analog cellular phones.
[11:17.550 --> 11:24.910]  And inside the phone is a little subscriber identity module that you can carry around with you and insert into other GSM phones.
[11:25.350 --> 11:33.350]  And basically bill calls to yourself and it stores all your speed dial numbers and so on and so forth.
[11:33.350 --> 11:36.470]  And it also makes, uh, for some rather interesting hacking.
[11:36.890 --> 11:38.310]  But I can't go into that.
[11:38.590 --> 11:46.310]  But anyway, uh, GSM is really interesting because it's, uh, the new emerging standard in the United States.
[11:46.450 --> 11:50.350]  It's the, uh, direct competitor with, uh, CDMA.
[11:51.210 --> 11:56.230]  CDMA is a technology that's being pioneered by AT&T and a few other companies.
[11:56.230 --> 12:00.090]  Uh, that's actually been in use for years in the military.
[12:00.250 --> 12:01.070]  Blah, blah, blah.
[12:01.150 --> 12:01.970]  Blah, blah, blah.
[12:02.190 --> 12:09.490]  Well, anyway, GSM is, uh, really interesting technology and I hope that you'll read my article and, uh, find out a bit more about it.
[12:09.730 --> 12:14.050]  The really cool thing about GSM phones is that you can make them ring in so many different ways.
[12:14.250 --> 12:14.930]  Want to show us?
[12:15.170 --> 12:16.970]  Oh, gee, yeah, that would be very exciting.
[12:17.090 --> 12:17.210]  Yeah.
[12:17.910 --> 12:23.490]  And there's a complete article in the new issue of 2600 which has been seen for the first time today.
[12:23.490 --> 12:29.750]  But, we also have a list of all the transmitter locations in New York City of our local GSM company known as Omnipoint.
[12:29.970 --> 12:31.290]  So go find them and tag them.
[12:33.410 --> 12:33.850]  Well,
[12:41.270 --> 12:42.070]  that was really exciting.
[12:42.390 --> 12:45.590]  No, you don't need to read the article before my session.
[12:46.150 --> 12:49.590]  Um, you can read the article before my session.
[12:49.770 --> 12:53.790]  And you might actually spare me a lot of dumb questions that are already answered in the article.
[12:54.530 --> 12:56.110]  But that's entirely up to you.
[12:56.410 --> 12:58.510]  But no, seriously, you don't have to read the article.
[12:58.510 --> 13:01.790]  Feel free to come by the panel and ask whatever questions you want.
[13:02.310 --> 13:03.930]  GSM panel's tomorrow night at 11.
[13:04.330 --> 13:08.070]  And, uh, we'll have all kinds of interesting things released then.
[13:08.790 --> 13:10.510]  Uh, okay, so this panel's about 2600.
[13:10.510 --> 13:13.570]  Our history, where we're going, what we've done, any questions people might have.
[13:13.750 --> 13:15.270]  We started back in 1984.
[13:15.830 --> 13:19.190]  Uh, me and Dave pretty much went into an office.
[13:19.330 --> 13:25.690]  We weren't supposed to be in late at night and Xeroxed some issues and sent them to about two dozen people and thought we were going to be arrested the next day.
[13:26.490 --> 13:29.750]  And, uh, before we knew it, more and more people wanted to read it.
[13:29.750 --> 13:36.190]  And it wasn't until 1988, I believe, that we actually put our first issue on the newsstands.
[13:36.590 --> 13:42.550]  Uh, now, uh, our subscriber base has stopped at around 2,000, 2,500.
[13:42.550 --> 13:44.150]  It's been that way about 10 years.
[13:44.310 --> 13:48.590]  But our, our, uh, newsstand distribution has shot up to about 40,000.
[13:49.850 --> 14:00.350]  Which, uh, well, that's a, that's sort of a testament to, uh, how paranoid people are and that they don't want to be on any list, especially the list run by us.
[14:01.850 --> 14:02.570]  Which is fine.
[14:02.650 --> 14:08.730]  I mean, it's a lot easier to send the things out to, uh, you know, to a distributor than, uh, than to send them out to each individual person.
[14:09.130 --> 14:10.510]  Uh, we've seen a lot of changes.
[14:10.510 --> 14:14.970]  We started out, as I said, on just, um, uh, eight and a half by 11 pieces of paper.
[14:15.790 --> 14:18.650]  And, uh, now we're a glossy magazine.
[14:18.790 --> 14:19.790]  It looks a lot like Wired.
[14:20.710 --> 14:23.090]  But, uh, doesn't quite read the same, I hope.
[14:23.770 --> 14:27.170]  Um, we've, we've seen a lot of weirdness come and go.
[14:27.310 --> 14:28.530]  We've met a lot of interesting people.
[14:28.710 --> 14:29.330]  We've expanded.
[14:29.690 --> 14:31.810]  And, um, here we are now.
[14:31.950 --> 14:38.510]  I mean, basically, the hacker community has, um, has pretty much flourished over the past 13 years.
[14:38.510 --> 14:44.390]  And that's enabled us to grow and to invest money into things like this, so that more people can get introduced to things.
[14:44.810 --> 14:48.210]  Uh, we've got a radio show in New York City once a week called Off The Hook.
[14:48.510 --> 14:50.370]  Uh, which you can now get on real audio.
[14:50.530 --> 14:52.130]  In fact, we have CD-ROMs outside now.
[14:52.190 --> 14:54.870]  We can pretty much hear all the additions that we've ever done.
[14:55.290 --> 14:56.370]  Phibers on that as well.
[14:57.230 --> 15:00.890]  And, um, it just keeps getting more and more interesting as the years go on.
[15:00.890 --> 15:02.650]  We keep, uh, expanding into new places.
[15:02.950 --> 15:10.150]  I think what 2600 Magazine has done is, um, shown us the power that we can have ourselves.
[15:10.530 --> 15:13.950]  We complain about the media, so what we did was, in fact, become the media.
[15:14.470 --> 15:16.850]  Uh, we, we publish our own magazine.
[15:17.170 --> 15:18.610]  We have our own radio show.
[15:18.610 --> 15:26.390]  We get our viewpoint out one way or the other because we know it's not gonna get out through the Associated Press or the New York Times or, or NBC or any of that.
[15:26.950 --> 15:32.370]  Uh, and I think a lot of people are realizing that with the information age, we're the ones in charge of technology.
[15:32.570 --> 15:36.530]  We're the ones that can do things, uh, with the technology if we have some ingenuity.
[15:37.070 --> 15:41.030]  So, I think 2600 has done that for a bunch of people.
[15:41.110 --> 15:43.410]  Hopefully, we'll be around a lot longer to do it for even more.
[15:44.630 --> 15:47.890]  Um, does anybody else have any words of inspiration?
[15:49.290 --> 15:50.790]  2600 is really cool.
[15:52.730 --> 15:53.690]  And, um...
[15:53.690 --> 15:58.490]  For those of you who haven't read the back issues, there's a lot of interesting stuff out there.
[15:58.590 --> 16:02.110]  You get to see the kind of evolution of all these things that you take for granted.
[16:02.110 --> 16:02.850]  Don't listen to this guy.
[16:02.850 --> 16:03.430]  That you take for granted.
[16:03.770 --> 16:04.330]  I'm sorry.
[16:04.790 --> 16:05.810]  I'm not lying.
[16:06.970 --> 16:15.810]  I, I had to promise Eric and Dave that I wouldn't come up here and lie or, um, say anything embarrassing about them or the past of the, uh, magazine.
[16:15.810 --> 16:18.430]  So, I want to really pass this on now.
[16:18.830 --> 16:19.990]  That was embarrassing.
[16:25.750 --> 16:28.450]  2600 has been a very important part of my life.
[16:28.910 --> 16:34.230]  Uh, since I was about 15, uh, years old.
[16:35.230 --> 16:37.070]  Um, I've written articles.
[16:37.370 --> 16:37.990]  I've taken photographs.
[16:37.990 --> 16:50.110]  It was my first job was answering the phone there and, and, and typing in people's names who subscribed, uh, who wanted mail and taking them off the list a week later when their checks bounced.
[16:50.810 --> 16:55.850]  And, um, I kind of wish I could have a job with as much prestige now.
[16:56.510 --> 16:59.590]  Um, fortunately the position's been filled.
[17:02.210 --> 17:04.690]  By a guy named, uh, uh, Tampruf.
[17:05.750 --> 17:08.250]  He, he answers the phones and, and, uh...
[17:08.250 --> 17:09.450]  No, he doesn't answer the phones.
[17:09.550 --> 17:10.170]  Nobody answers the phones.
[17:10.190 --> 17:10.750]  Oh yeah, that's right.
[17:10.790 --> 17:11.970]  Nobody answers the phones anymore.
[17:12.170 --> 17:14.070]  Especially since this conference got, uh, announced.
[17:14.350 --> 17:20.570]  See, if, when we start answering the phones, then people call back over and over again wanting to know everything there is to know.
[17:20.570 --> 17:22.290]  What happens if I dial this number?
[17:22.470 --> 17:23.890]  Uh, it just gets out of hand.
[17:24.070 --> 17:27.550]  So we have all kinds of automated things that take care of all that.
[17:27.690 --> 17:30.110]  And we just do the stuff that needs to be done in the office.
[17:30.530 --> 17:31.770]  So it's nothing personal.
[17:31.930 --> 17:34.150]  We just don't have time to deal with answering the phones.
[17:34.610 --> 17:45.790]  And, and if you pick up some of the really old back issues, um, Emmanuel wrote some pretty scathing articles about companies that actually have these automated, uh, devices that pick up the phones.
[17:46.310 --> 17:49.870]  And that's another interesting part of our, uh, evolution as a phenomenon.
[17:50.610 --> 17:55.350]  I just want to, um, say I was there when we used to answer the phone.
[17:56.290 --> 17:57.990]  Give that little personal touch.
[18:00.090 --> 18:02.510]  And back then we didn't even have a phone at first.
[18:02.790 --> 18:04.890]  The first few months we had no phone at all.
[18:05.330 --> 18:06.390]  Those were the best days.
[18:06.590 --> 18:09.330]  I had a lot of trouble, uh, reaching them back then.
[18:09.590 --> 18:12.070]  Well, we had somebody else's phone, I think.
[18:13.990 --> 18:21.510]  As a side issue, as a side issue for the first time, perhaps in a long time, a human has answered the Beyond HOPE phone all day.
[18:22.310 --> 18:25.490]  Yeah, someone gave out your cellular phone number as the press contact.
[18:26.110 --> 18:30.310]  So, uh, Pam has been getting all the phone calls all day long from various media people around the world.
[18:31.150 --> 18:32.970]  So, that, that's, that's a lot of fun, too.
[18:35.330 --> 18:36.210]  Pam rocks.
[18:36.610 --> 18:37.330]  Thank you, Ben.
[18:43.410 --> 18:53.670]  Even though we don't, uh, answer the phone personally, uh, maybe, Emmanuel, you'd like to mention the, uh, the voice BBS and other audio text resources you've provided?
[18:54.010 --> 18:54.290]  Readers?
[18:55.290 --> 18:56.950]  Uh, what about the voice BBS?
[18:57.090 --> 18:57.730]  You want me to mention that?
[18:57.950 --> 18:59.550]  I can't stand the voice BBS.
[18:59.710 --> 19:00.370]  It drives me crazy.
[19:01.430 --> 19:04.690]  We, we, we've had these voice BBSs now for a few years.
[19:04.910 --> 19:07.570]  Uh, we had one that was a single line BBS.
[19:07.990 --> 19:09.790]  And it just, it drove us crazy.
[19:09.790 --> 19:13.570]  We had to rewrite all the software, uh, to run batch files.
[19:13.750 --> 19:22.310]  So, every time you left a message, it basically would, would erase 60 greetings, rename 60 previous greetings to 60 more.
[19:22.310 --> 19:26.130]  And that's what happened every time you, uh, you, you posted a message.
[19:26.270 --> 19:28.150]  It was a hack of various, various means.
[19:28.490 --> 19:31.350]  Uh, we have a new system now that holds four lines.
[19:31.510 --> 19:36.070]  But it's not much better as far as touch tone recognition or speed or anything like that.
[19:36.650 --> 19:39.390]  Uh, so, uh, it's, it, it's a rather frustrating thing.
[19:39.430 --> 19:40.590]  Although a lot of people seem to like it.
[19:40.670 --> 19:45.390]  There's a lot of people out there that use the voice BBS and, and talk to other people through it.
[19:45.710 --> 19:47.650]  So, um, you know, we'll continue doing it.
[19:47.750 --> 19:50.150]  It's just, um, it's, it's a challenge.
[19:50.170 --> 19:50.870]  Let's put it that way.
[19:50.870 --> 19:51.410]  Tell the number.
[19:51.730 --> 19:55.970]  Oh yeah, the number is 516-473-2626, in case you've never called it before.
[19:56.050 --> 19:57.450]  We've got some pretty neat recordings on there.
[19:58.430 --> 20:01.650]  And, uh, you might, you might have some fun listening to those.
[20:01.990 --> 20:05.470]  But basically, it's another way of people, you know, people don't have access to the internet, for instance.
[20:05.710 --> 20:09.170]  It's a way for them to keep, keep in touch with other people, find out what's going on.
[20:09.770 --> 20:11.650]  And we, we try to offer that as much as possible.
[20:11.750 --> 20:17.490]  We started the 2600 meetings, which by the way, they just celebrated their 10th anniversary of the first 2600 meeting.
[20:22.100 --> 20:27.860]  Which were actually inspired by the TAP meetings, which used to take place every Friday here in New York City.
[20:28.060 --> 20:32.520]  And in fact, there'll be a reunion tomorrow, uh, of all the TAP people, or some of the TAP people anyway.
[20:32.520 --> 20:34.840]  Um, it's interesting.
[20:34.980 --> 20:36.580]  We started in New York City at Citicorp.
[20:36.800 --> 20:41.660]  And, um, we expanded to, uh, San Francisco, Washington, D.C.
[20:42.100 --> 20:45.220]  And then the, the Secret Service raid of the Washington, D.C.
[20:45.360 --> 20:45.860]  meeting happened.
[20:46.080 --> 20:48.300]  And after that, we had a hundred new cities.
[20:48.460 --> 20:51.440]  Because everybody wanted to, uh, to challenge that kind of nonsense.
[20:52.080 --> 20:54.140]  So, I think that's very much in the spirit of hacking.
[20:54.620 --> 20:59.020]  Um, when something bad happens to us, we just come back with even more strength.
[21:01.120 --> 21:03.360]  And, you know, for me, this is a...
[21:03.360 --> 21:04.240]  Oh, sorry.
[21:04.920 --> 21:05.660]  Did you want to say something?
[21:05.920 --> 21:07.620]  A good segue to Bernie here.
[21:08.240 --> 21:10.560]  Yeah, this is a good segue to, uh, Bernie.
[21:10.560 --> 21:14.240]  Well, Bernie had a little, little trouble with, uh, with the Secret Service, actually.
[21:15.760 --> 21:16.120]  Uh...
[21:16.120 --> 21:18.700]  Which he's gonna talk about in the next couple of days, but give us a brief rundown.
[21:18.700 --> 21:18.940]  Uh...
[21:19.840 --> 21:23.860]  Eric, or Emmanuel was, uh, just mentioning something about, uh, the, uh...
[21:23.860 --> 21:24.200]  That's fine.
[21:26.760 --> 21:27.200]  Uh...
[21:27.200 --> 21:27.380]  Uh...
[21:27.380 --> 21:29.280]  Situation where the, uh, Washington, D.C. meeting was, uh...
[21:30.980 --> 21:34.100]  broken up by the, by the Secret Service, uh...
[21:34.100 --> 21:37.640]  somewhat covertly, but the cover was pretty, pretty easily blown.
[21:38.280 --> 21:38.600]  Uh...
[21:38.600 --> 21:41.960]  And then the, the number of 2600 meetings across the country, uh... multiplied several, several times.
[21:44.840 --> 21:45.280]  Uh...
[21:45.280 --> 21:46.980]  Something similar happened to me, uh...
[21:46.980 --> 21:49.980]  I was, uh...
[21:49.980 --> 21:52.680]  Demonized by the Secret Service, uh...
[21:52.680 --> 21:53.460]  In a...
[21:53.460 --> 21:56.400]  Fairly well publicized case, thanks to 2600.
[21:57.780 --> 21:59.060]  And, uh...
[21:59.060 --> 22:03.760]  Their primary beef with me was that I had, in my personal files, uh...
[22:03.760 --> 22:05.160]  Information about the Secret Service.
[22:06.580 --> 22:07.220]  Um...
[22:07.220 --> 22:10.620]  Codenames used by agents, and, uh...
[22:10.620 --> 22:12.340]  Codenames used for various...
[22:13.520 --> 22:14.160]  Uh...
[22:14.160 --> 22:16.960]  Presidents, vice presidents, their wives, that sort of thing.
[22:17.620 --> 22:18.120]  Um...
[22:18.120 --> 22:22.900]  Radio frequencies, the Secret Service used in protecting the president, and, uh...
[22:22.900 --> 22:25.060]  In their day-to-day operations, uh...
[22:25.060 --> 22:27.420]  Tracking down counterfeiters, and, uh...
[22:27.420 --> 22:28.740]  Computer hackers, that sort of thing.
[22:28.920 --> 22:33.000]  I had all this information, which was publicly available, but not well...
[22:33.680 --> 22:34.180]  Well...
[22:34.180 --> 22:34.920]  Publicized.
[22:36.800 --> 22:37.800]  And, uh...
[22:38.420 --> 22:40.960]  Secret Service agents are repeatedly, uh...
[22:40.960 --> 22:41.700]  Uh...
[22:41.700 --> 22:42.580]  Painted me as...
[22:43.220 --> 22:43.740]  Uh...
[22:43.740 --> 22:48.120]  A threat to the community, because I had this information in my files.
[22:48.940 --> 22:49.980]  And, uh...
[22:49.980 --> 22:51.000]  As a result of...
[22:51.000 --> 22:52.340]  Of their...
[22:52.340 --> 22:53.380]  Pretty, uh...
[22:53.380 --> 22:54.020]  Empty claims.
[22:54.740 --> 22:55.260]  Uh...
[22:55.260 --> 22:58.700]  The same information that I had privately in my files, uh...
[22:58.700 --> 23:00.680]  Was, uh...
[23:00.680 --> 23:01.280]  Well...
[23:01.280 --> 23:04.220]  Published all over the world, on the internet, and in 2600 magazine.
[23:04.220 --> 23:10.740]  And so, it just goes to show that, you know, if you try to squelch information, um...
[23:10.740 --> 23:11.060]  Um...
[23:11.060 --> 23:11.120]  Um...
[23:11.120 --> 23:14.220]  At least, when it has to do with the hacking community, it's...
[23:14.980 --> 23:15.360]  It's...
[23:15.360 --> 23:16.120]  It's not gonna get any better.
[23:16.540 --> 23:16.920]  It's gonna...
[23:16.920 --> 23:17.420]  It's gonna...
[23:17.420 --> 23:18.880]  It's gonna mushroom even more.
[23:19.080 --> 23:20.540]  So, uh...
[23:20.540 --> 23:23.520]  I don't know if they learned a lesson from that or not, but...
[23:23.520 --> 23:24.200]  Um...
[23:24.200 --> 23:24.980]  Maybe we'll find out.
[23:26.880 --> 23:30.280]  Wasn't the real reason that the Secret Service was mad at you, is you had a...
[23:30.280 --> 23:32.040]  Picture of an agent picking his nose?
[23:33.500 --> 23:33.940]  Well...
[23:33.940 --> 23:34.340]  That...
[23:34.340 --> 23:35.160]  Can we go to that...
[23:35.160 --> 23:36.340]  Can we go to that picture?
[23:36.520 --> 23:37.600]  We have it on our website.
[23:37.820 --> 23:38.260]  Yeah, actually...
[23:38.260 --> 23:39.280]  I would love to see that.
[23:40.260 --> 23:40.700]  Uh...
[23:40.700 --> 23:40.880]  It's...
[23:40.880 --> 23:42.080]  It's under...
[23:42.080 --> 23:42.660]  Contents.
[23:43.600 --> 23:44.520]  I think, uh...
[23:44.520 --> 23:47.040]  If you go there, into the Secret Service section...
[23:50.480 --> 23:50.920]  Uh...
[23:50.920 --> 23:53.040]  About four years ago, uh...
[23:53.980 --> 23:58.220]  I got a call from a friend, who, uh...
[23:58.220 --> 24:01.000]  Had a visit from two gentlemen, who...
[24:01.620 --> 24:03.900]  Just identified themselves as businessmen.
[24:07.800 --> 24:08.600]  Scroll down.
[24:10.440 --> 24:12.260]  But these two businessmen, uh...
[24:12.260 --> 24:13.240]  Acted rather suspicious.
[24:14.420 --> 24:15.280]  So, uh...
[24:15.280 --> 24:16.480]  He got their license plate number.
[24:17.600 --> 24:18.440]  And, uh...
[24:18.440 --> 24:19.900]  Checked it out through various resources.
[24:20.300 --> 24:20.840]  And...
[24:20.840 --> 24:23.440]  Found out that the vehicle was registered to the federal government.
[24:25.340 --> 24:32.920]  They stopped back at his office, uh...
[24:33.380 --> 24:35.360]  With a video camera in his office.
[24:41.360 --> 24:42.400]  This is the, uh...
[24:42.400 --> 24:43.880]  Secret Service photo album.
[24:44.300 --> 24:45.640]  They actually just started it.
[24:45.740 --> 24:46.120]  There we go.
[24:47.220 --> 24:48.560]  There's the two gentlemen right there.
[24:49.260 --> 24:51.400]  Now, this is about the...
[24:51.400 --> 24:53.620]  Eighth generation copy of this...
[24:53.620 --> 24:55.140]  This photo, so...
[24:55.140 --> 24:56.580]  You gotta forgive the, uh...
[24:56.680 --> 24:58.460]  Actually, it looked a lot better, uh...
[24:58.460 --> 25:00.460]  Looks a lot better when you're looking at it on a computer monitor.
[25:00.460 --> 25:01.540]  But this projection...
[25:01.540 --> 25:02.780]  Distorts it a lot.
[25:04.540 --> 25:05.020]  Uh...
[25:05.020 --> 25:06.840]  The gentleman on the left, uh...
[25:06.840 --> 25:07.480]  And the gentleman on the right.
[25:07.600 --> 25:08.700]  They're both Secret Service agents.
[25:09.020 --> 25:09.220]  Uh...
[25:09.220 --> 25:09.700]  Undercover.
[25:10.280 --> 25:10.760]  Uh...
[25:10.760 --> 25:12.920]  Investigating, um...
[25:12.920 --> 25:14.000]  Someone I knew.
[25:14.180 --> 25:16.240]  Actually, investigating an employee of...
[25:16.240 --> 25:17.020]  A friend of mine.
[25:17.640 --> 25:17.780]  Uh...
[25:17.780 --> 25:18.980]  The investigation went nowhere.
[25:19.480 --> 25:20.260]  But, uh...
[25:20.260 --> 25:21.640]  They were captured on videotape.
[25:21.880 --> 25:22.240]  Um...
[25:22.240 --> 25:23.020]  The camera was...
[25:23.820 --> 25:24.300]  Fairly...
[25:24.300 --> 25:25.640]  Easily seen in the office.
[25:25.880 --> 25:26.120]  Uh...
[25:26.120 --> 25:27.740]  They couldn't have missed it if they looked around.
[25:28.060 --> 25:28.540]  Uh...
[25:28.540 --> 25:28.860]  Uh...
[25:28.860 --> 25:31.700]  They made an awful big deal about it after, uh...
[25:31.700 --> 25:31.880]  Uh...
[25:31.880 --> 25:34.120]  The pictures ended up on the evening news in Philadelphia.
[25:39.960 --> 25:40.400]  Uh...
[25:40.400 --> 25:41.900]  My friend printed these photographs.
[25:42.120 --> 25:42.720]  The picture...
[25:42.720 --> 25:43.520]  Yeah, raise that up a little bit.
[25:44.880 --> 25:45.800]  He has his...
[25:45.800 --> 25:48.760]  He had his index finger about halfway up his nose in this picture.
[25:55.300 --> 25:55.900]  And I...
[25:55.900 --> 25:58.040]  I think that's what really pissed them off.
[25:58.180 --> 25:59.440]  They were so pissed.
[26:00.620 --> 26:01.360]  So, I...
[26:01.360 --> 26:01.590]  I...
[26:01.960 --> 26:02.380]  Uh...
[26:02.380 --> 26:03.080]  Got these...
[26:03.080 --> 26:05.740]  These photos printed off my, uh...
[26:08.260 --> 26:09.570]  Off my friend's, uh...
[26:10.220 --> 26:12.220]  Eight millimeter, uh...
[26:12.220 --> 26:12.720]  Tape recorder.
[26:12.980 --> 26:13.720]  Videotape recorder.
[26:13.980 --> 26:14.620]  We're all dead.
[26:14.720 --> 26:15.080]  You know that.
[26:15.180 --> 26:15.700]  We're all dead.
[26:15.920 --> 26:16.300]  And I...
[26:16.300 --> 26:16.680]  I...
[26:17.230 --> 26:18.490]  I took the pictures, uh...
[26:19.180 --> 26:21.440]  To a 2600 meeting in Philadelphia, where I lived.
[26:22.160 --> 26:23.180]  And, uh...
[26:23.180 --> 26:23.880]  Showed them around.
[26:24.080 --> 26:25.080]  Because this was, uh...
[26:25.080 --> 26:25.240]  The...
[26:25.240 --> 26:27.300]  The raid on the, uh...
[26:27.300 --> 26:28.360]  Or the break up of the...
[26:28.780 --> 26:29.520]  Washington D.C.
[26:29.660 --> 26:31.940]  meeting at the Pentagon Mall was still on everybody's minds.
[26:32.240 --> 26:32.840]  And, uh...
[26:32.840 --> 26:34.900]  We were concerned that the same thing might happen in Philadelphia.
[26:36.360 --> 26:36.760]  Um...
[26:36.760 --> 26:37.300]  So, we...
[26:37.300 --> 26:37.560]  We...
[26:37.560 --> 26:38.460]  We passed the pictures around.
[26:39.580 --> 26:39.980]  Um...
[26:39.980 --> 26:42.000]  Having a good idea that these were, uh...
[26:42.000 --> 26:43.480]  Oh, I never saw that one in color before.
[26:43.760 --> 26:44.540]  It looks good.
[26:45.060 --> 26:45.860]  The gentleman...
[26:45.860 --> 26:46.180]  That's Tom Varney.
[26:46.180 --> 26:48.180]  The gentleman on the right is, uh...
[26:48.180 --> 26:48.660]  Uh...
[26:48.660 --> 26:48.720]  Uh...
[26:48.720 --> 26:49.920]  Special Agent Thomas L. Varney.
[26:51.340 --> 26:51.820]  Uh...
[26:51.820 --> 26:52.940]  That rat bastard.
[26:53.240 --> 26:53.500]  Uh...
[26:53.500 --> 26:55.360]  Of the United States Secret Service, uh...
[26:55.360 --> 26:56.180]  Philadelphia office.
[26:56.500 --> 26:56.960]  That guy...
[26:56.960 --> 26:57.820]  I have never...
[27:00.160 --> 27:04.260]  I have never seen anybody lie so much in front of a federal judge.
[27:04.260 --> 27:05.640]  It's this guy who, uh...
[27:05.640 --> 27:08.300]  Was describing how much of a threat Bernie S.
[27:08.420 --> 27:09.300]  was to society.
[27:09.540 --> 27:11.800]  Because he had dental putty in his garage.
[27:12.260 --> 27:13.160]  No, it's not...
[27:13.160 --> 27:15.660]  Which looked like it might have been C4 or something.
[27:15.660 --> 27:16.260]  It wasn't...
[27:16.260 --> 27:18.240]  They didn't say that I had dental putty in my garage.
[27:18.460 --> 27:18.820]  They...
[27:18.820 --> 27:19.820]  They said that, uh...
[27:19.820 --> 27:21.660]  Well, this was at my, uh...
[27:22.420 --> 27:22.660]  Uh...
[27:22.660 --> 27:23.780]  At two different, uh...
[27:23.780 --> 27:24.300]  Court dates.
[27:24.440 --> 27:25.620]  The Secret Service, uh...
[27:25.620 --> 27:29.300]  Mr. Varney stated to the judge, uh...
[27:29.300 --> 27:31.160]  In open court, that, uh...
[27:31.160 --> 27:32.340]  Mr. Cummings had, uh...
[27:32.340 --> 27:36.440]  Material in his home that we believed to be C4 plastic explosives.
[27:38.500 --> 27:42.560]  Upon analysis, this is him paraphrasing him again.
[27:42.680 --> 27:45.440]  Upon analysis, it turned out not to be C4.
[27:45.640 --> 27:48.000]  But the fact that it might have been concerns us greatly.
[27:50.140 --> 27:50.940]  That's a quote.
[27:52.040 --> 27:57.180]  And that is one of, like, you know, about a dozen similar types of statements he'd made.
[27:57.320 --> 27:58.740]  It just really made no sense.
[27:59.140 --> 27:59.560]  But...
[27:59.560 --> 28:02.200]  But the judges just seemed to let this stuff fly by.
[28:02.200 --> 28:03.080]  It was really amazing.
[28:04.100 --> 28:05.160]  So, uh...
[28:05.160 --> 28:06.640]  Anyway, back to the story of the photos.
[28:07.020 --> 28:15.520]  I took them to a 2600 meeting in Philadelphia and passed them around and taped them up on the wall there, under stairwell number 7, where we meet.
[28:17.360 --> 28:18.240]  And, uh...
[28:18.240 --> 28:19.080]  The, uh...
[28:19.080 --> 28:20.880]  Fox Television affiliate showed up at that meeting.
[28:21.020 --> 28:22.080]  And they were not invited.
[28:22.320 --> 28:22.460]  Uh...
[28:22.460 --> 28:23.200]  Just the previous...
[28:23.200 --> 28:28.120]  The previous week, there was an article in the Philadelphia City paper about the meetings that were going on.
[28:28.200 --> 28:29.400]  And I guess they decided to cover it.
[28:30.100 --> 28:31.320]  And cover it they did.
[28:32.320 --> 28:32.640]  Uh...
[28:32.640 --> 28:33.560]  They interviewed several people.
[28:33.780 --> 28:35.160]  I kind of declined to be on camera.
[28:35.440 --> 28:36.680]  But I did, uh...
[28:36.680 --> 28:37.320]  I did point out.
[28:37.420 --> 28:39.560]  In fact, if you look on one of those pictures, if you can go back.
[28:41.840 --> 28:42.160]  Um...
[28:42.160 --> 28:43.700]  These photographs were...
[28:43.700 --> 28:45.860]  I'll tell you how these photographs ended up on the webpage.
[28:47.300 --> 28:48.820]  After I tell you how they ended up on television.
[28:49.600 --> 28:49.760]  Uh...
[28:49.760 --> 28:52.100]  Fox 29 showed up and they interviewed several members of the...
[28:52.500 --> 28:54.440]  Several attendees of the meeting.
[28:55.540 --> 28:56.180]  And, uh...
[28:56.180 --> 28:57.800]  They asked, well, what are these photos on the wall?
[28:57.800 --> 28:58.940]  And, uh...
[28:58.940 --> 29:01.720]  I said, well, we believe these are undercover secret service agents.
[29:02.140 --> 29:02.800]  And, uh...
[29:03.660 --> 29:04.860]  We're trying to keep tabs on them.
[29:05.000 --> 29:06.620]  Because they're obviously keeping tabs on us.
[29:07.320 --> 29:08.200]  And, uh...
[29:08.200 --> 29:09.740]  Fox 29 News thought that was just great.
[29:10.240 --> 29:10.640]  Uh...
[29:10.640 --> 29:12.460]  Well, 29 is the channel in Philadelphia.
[29:12.720 --> 29:13.420]  Fox is on.
[29:13.540 --> 29:14.680]  So they, uh...
[29:14.680 --> 29:15.560]  They videotaped that.
[29:15.720 --> 29:16.120]  And then, uh...
[29:16.120 --> 29:17.880]  A couple nights later, ended up on the evening news.
[29:18.020 --> 29:18.500]  Prime time.
[29:19.820 --> 29:20.700]  And, uh...
[29:20.700 --> 29:22.260]  This is actually, uh...
[29:22.260 --> 29:24.380]  These pictures were actually taped off the air.
[29:24.380 --> 29:24.760]  On a...
[29:24.760 --> 29:25.520]  On a VCR.
[29:26.240 --> 29:31.060]  And that tape went through a couple generations of duplicating.
[29:31.380 --> 29:35.680]  And one of them ended up at the 2600 office sometime later after I was imprisoned.
[29:36.600 --> 29:37.100]  And...
[29:37.100 --> 29:38.490]  That was a cleaned up...
[29:39.020 --> 29:40.400]  Actually, it was a...
[29:40.400 --> 29:41.360]  What was a...
[29:41.360 --> 29:46.320]  Scott, you can probably describe the technical details that went into getting these pictures off...
[29:46.320 --> 29:47.260]  Off the air.
[29:47.420 --> 29:48.360]  And onto the webpage.
[29:49.440 --> 29:50.540]  Oh, I'd rather not.
[29:50.680 --> 29:51.040]  He wouldn't...
[29:51.040 --> 29:51.260]  Okay.
[29:51.480 --> 29:53.580]  It was a traumatic experience for Scott.
[29:53.580 --> 29:56.120]  He explained it to me while I was incarcerated over the phone.
[29:57.460 --> 29:58.180]  But, uh...
[29:58.900 --> 29:59.260]  Uh...
[29:59.260 --> 30:00.220]  They were, uh...
[30:00.220 --> 30:01.640]  You know, digitized and cleaned up.
[30:01.820 --> 30:01.940]  And...
[30:01.940 --> 30:04.100]  And ended up being published in 2600 Magazine.
[30:04.320 --> 30:04.520]  But...
[30:04.520 --> 30:06.180]  Back to, uh...
[30:06.180 --> 30:07.580]  What was I gonna say about, uh...
[30:08.120 --> 30:08.660]  What was it...
[30:08.660 --> 30:09.620]  I lost my train of thought.
[30:09.760 --> 30:10.860]  What was I saying a minute ago?
[30:11.980 --> 30:13.020]  What did they end up on the webpage?
[30:13.840 --> 30:14.200]  Hmm?
[30:15.860 --> 30:16.500]  Later on...
[30:16.500 --> 30:17.040]  Oh, yeah.
[30:17.120 --> 30:17.840]  How they ended up on the webpage.
[30:17.960 --> 30:21.400]  On one of these photos, I think it's the previous one, you'll see my finger...
[30:21.400 --> 30:21.940]  Uh...
[30:21.940 --> 30:23.580]  As I was, uh...
[30:23.580 --> 30:23.960]  There we go.
[30:24.120 --> 30:24.540]  That one there.
[30:24.720 --> 30:25.640]  That's my finger.
[30:26.720 --> 30:31.440]  Now, it wouldn't surprise me if the Secret Service went to the trouble of, uh...
[30:31.440 --> 30:35.420]  You know, trying to enhance that finger to prove that it was my fingerprint.
[30:37.400 --> 30:38.200]  But, uh...
[30:38.200 --> 30:40.200]  I don't think the quality was good enough for them to do that.
[30:40.980 --> 30:41.380]  Um...
[30:41.380 --> 30:42.480]  I was, uh...
[30:42.480 --> 30:46.400]  Explaining to the Fox News crew, you know, what these photos were.
[30:46.560 --> 30:47.680]  And I was saying, uh...
[30:47.680 --> 30:51.700]  That this is a picture of the two Secret Service agents walking into an office of, uh...
[30:51.700 --> 30:52.540]  An associate of mine.
[30:52.860 --> 30:53.420]  And, uh...
[30:54.240 --> 30:56.840]  This is the two agents looking around and asking questions.
[30:57.100 --> 30:59.720]  And the third picture is a Secret Service agent picking his nose.
[31:01.800 --> 31:02.600]  And, uh...
[31:02.600 --> 31:03.580]  So that's a...
[31:03.580 --> 31:05.020]  That's a story of the finger in the picture.
[31:05.240 --> 31:06.180]  And, uh...
[31:06.180 --> 31:07.720]  That ended up, uh...
[31:08.400 --> 31:10.640]  You know, obviously being on the webpage and in 2600.
[31:11.800 --> 31:12.600]  So, um...
[31:12.600 --> 31:13.820]  The bottom line is, uh...
[31:13.820 --> 31:15.820]  The Secret Service doesn't like it when their cover is blown.
[31:16.000 --> 31:16.280]  And, uh...
[31:16.280 --> 31:16.800]  I guess that...
[31:16.800 --> 31:18.700]  That whole secrecy thing is, uh...
[31:18.700 --> 31:19.620]  Really important to them.
[31:29.300 --> 31:29.700]  Um...
[31:29.700 --> 31:30.900]  That sort of thing.
[31:31.040 --> 31:31.860]  Then, uh...
[31:31.860 --> 31:33.080]  We think turnabout is fair play.
[31:35.080 --> 31:35.520]  Um...
[31:35.520 --> 31:37.700]  Are there any other incidents of, uh...
[31:38.260 --> 31:38.540]  Uh...
[31:38.540 --> 31:41.140]  People being harassed at 2600 meetings in other towns?
[31:41.680 --> 31:42.340]  Well, yeah.
[31:42.400 --> 31:43.440]  It happens all over the place.
[31:43.600 --> 31:43.720]  Uh...
[31:43.720 --> 31:45.680]  Not necessarily by Secret Service, but...
[31:45.680 --> 31:47.320]  Lots of times by ignorant security guards.
[31:48.700 --> 31:49.580]  But, um...
[31:49.580 --> 31:52.700]  The Secret Service, I think, is what we really have to worry about.
[31:53.080 --> 31:54.460]  Insofar as what happened to Bernie.
[31:54.960 --> 31:58.620]  I mean, it wasn't about red box tones or, uh...
[31:58.620 --> 32:02.260]  Or instructions on how to use a red box or possession of technology.
[32:02.260 --> 32:04.360]  It was about them being pissed off.
[32:04.860 --> 32:07.620]  It was about them being pissed off at being embarrassed like this.
[32:08.000 --> 32:08.900]  And, uh...
[32:08.900 --> 32:10.400]  It's widely felt that...
[32:10.400 --> 32:11.120]  And, uh...
[32:11.120 --> 32:11.680]  I believe...
[32:11.680 --> 32:13.960]  I believe the Secret Service once said...
[32:13.960 --> 32:14.300]  Bernie.
[32:15.000 --> 32:15.020]  Yes.
[32:15.020 --> 32:16.860]  Off the record, they said something to that effect.
[32:17.080 --> 32:17.620]  That, uh...
[32:18.160 --> 32:19.220]  Yeah, this was not a...
[32:19.220 --> 32:19.960]  What was the exact quote?
[32:20.260 --> 32:20.500]  Right.
[32:20.600 --> 32:21.580]  There was a...
[32:21.580 --> 32:22.460]  A quote.
[32:22.700 --> 32:23.460]  And it was, uh...
[32:23.460 --> 32:24.620]  Not publicly...
[32:25.140 --> 32:25.360]  It was...
[32:25.360 --> 32:26.580]  These were not public words.
[32:27.760 --> 32:28.200]  Um...
[32:28.200 --> 32:29.120]  The, uh...
[32:29.120 --> 32:30.240]  The main federal prosecutor...
[32:30.240 --> 32:32.240]  The chief federal prosecutor in my case...
[32:33.380 --> 32:33.820]  Uh...
[32:33.820 --> 32:36.200]  Had worked closely with...
[32:37.320 --> 32:37.760]  Um...
[32:37.760 --> 32:38.320]  My attorney.
[32:38.760 --> 32:38.780]  Uh...
[32:38.780 --> 32:39.780]  The second attorney in my case.
[32:39.840 --> 32:42.220]  The first attorney I had in my case was pretty incompetent.
[32:42.300 --> 32:42.880]  So I fired him.
[32:43.100 --> 32:43.920]  But the, uh...
[32:43.920 --> 32:45.260]  Second attorney I got was a...
[32:45.260 --> 32:46.200]  Pretty competent guy.
[32:46.360 --> 32:46.560]  And, uh...
[32:46.560 --> 32:48.220]  He's a former federal prosecutor himself.
[32:48.580 --> 32:48.800]  Uh...
[32:48.800 --> 32:49.600]  Kenneth Trujillo.
[32:51.080 --> 32:52.280]  He worked, uh...
[32:52.280 --> 32:52.340]  He worked, uh...
[32:52.340 --> 32:53.660]  As a federal prosecutor for...
[32:53.660 --> 32:55.360]  I think four or five years.
[32:56.260 --> 32:57.400]  With my prosecutor.
[32:58.360 --> 32:58.720]  Um...
[32:58.720 --> 32:59.580]  And then, uh...
[32:59.580 --> 33:00.580]  As he said, uh...
[33:00.580 --> 33:01.200]  Saw the light.
[33:01.540 --> 33:02.940]  And became a defense attorney.
[33:03.900 --> 33:05.080]  I think the money was better, too.
[33:05.840 --> 33:06.280]  But...
[33:06.280 --> 33:08.720]  Anyways, probably driving around in a new, uh...
[33:08.720 --> 33:09.240]  Mercedes with...
[33:09.240 --> 33:10.520]  What he built me.
[33:10.820 --> 33:11.260]  But...
[33:11.260 --> 33:12.040]  Anyway...
[33:12.780 --> 33:13.220]  Um...
[33:13.220 --> 33:14.120]  This, uh...
[33:14.120 --> 33:15.000]  Prosecutor, uh...
[33:15.000 --> 33:16.040]  Ann Chain is her name.
[33:16.040 --> 33:34.120]  She confided in my attorney, who then passed this information on to me, that, quote, The real reason Ed is in jail is not because of this electronic stuff, but because of the Secret Service photographs, frequencies, and other information he had in his files.
[33:34.940 --> 33:38.040]  Now, when she was asked about this by, uh...
[33:38.720 --> 33:39.280]  Uh...
[33:39.280 --> 33:41.900]  Reporter Rob Bernstein for Internet Underground Magazine, she...
[33:41.900 --> 33:42.960]  She completely denied it.
[33:42.960 --> 33:46.920]  It doesn't surprise me that she's gonna just say, oh, yeah, really, that's what all this was about.
[33:48.300 --> 33:48.740]  Um...
[33:48.740 --> 33:49.280]  The, uh...
[33:49.280 --> 33:49.400]  Secret...
[33:49.400 --> 33:53.200]  I'm sort of encroaching on a topic of another panel, but, uh...
[33:53.200 --> 33:54.880]  The Secret Service also, uh...
[33:54.880 --> 33:58.400]  Stated to the individual who took these pictures...
[33:58.400 --> 33:59.060]  Um...
[33:59.060 --> 34:00.320]  This is after I was incarcerated.
[34:01.680 --> 34:02.560]  That, uh...
[34:02.560 --> 34:06.440]  Quote, Nobody fucks with the Secret Service without us fucking with them.
[34:06.960 --> 34:10.520]  And with 2,000 agents, we've got the biggest gang in town.
[34:11.420 --> 34:12.740]  Now, if that's not a...
[34:13.100 --> 34:14.520]  Kind of a biased, uh...
[34:16.060 --> 34:16.220]  Uh...
[34:16.220 --> 34:16.360]  Uh...
[34:16.360 --> 34:17.540]  Viewpoint, I don't know what is.
[34:18.240 --> 34:18.600]  Um...
[34:18.600 --> 34:18.960]  And I...
[34:18.960 --> 34:20.020]  I have this in good authority.
[34:20.060 --> 34:22.720]  The person who told me this is not the kind of person who would, uh...
[34:22.720 --> 34:23.460]  Would make this up.
[34:24.240 --> 34:24.960]  So, uh...
[34:24.960 --> 34:26.940]  We've got, you know, two quotes from the federal...
[34:26.940 --> 34:27.740]  You know, federal...
[34:29.180 --> 34:31.240]  Federal prosecutor in the Secret Service that...
[34:31.240 --> 34:33.360]  Pretty much explain what my case was about.
[34:33.360 --> 34:35.420]  And, um...
[34:35.420 --> 34:35.920]  Um...
[34:35.920 --> 34:36.840]  You know, they...
[34:36.840 --> 34:40.360]  They did as much as admit in writing in my, uh...
[34:41.060 --> 34:44.880]  Pre-sentence investigation report that, quote, There were no victims in the offense.
[34:45.600 --> 34:46.600]  But, uh...
[34:46.600 --> 34:47.960]  It doesn't matter if there are any victims now.
[34:48.040 --> 34:51.780]  There's some new federal laws that basically make it a felony to possess...
[34:52.980 --> 34:55.740]  Hardware or software that could be misused.
[34:56.500 --> 34:57.000]  And...
[34:57.000 --> 34:58.280]  It's pretty broad.
[34:58.600 --> 35:00.840]  And I'll go into that in another panel, uh...
[35:00.840 --> 35:01.680]  This weekend, but...
[35:01.680 --> 35:08.880]  Yeah, we have a panel Sunday afternoon that's dealing with scary legislation and how you can be prosecuted for living your normal daily life.
[35:10.080 --> 35:10.520]  Um...
[35:10.520 --> 35:11.520]  With the Bernie S.
[35:11.600 --> 35:14.180]  case, that was probably one of the most, um...
[35:14.180 --> 35:14.620]  Um...
[35:14.620 --> 35:15.520]  Troubling things.
[35:15.920 --> 35:16.060]  Uh...
[35:16.060 --> 35:18.400]  The Phiber Optik case was troubling in itself.
[35:18.600 --> 35:20.180]  And we can get into that in a little bit, too.
[35:20.520 --> 35:21.560]  But the Bernie S.
[35:21.640 --> 35:23.540]  case really was scary.
[35:23.940 --> 35:24.160]  Uh...
[35:24.160 --> 35:30.040]  Just the ferocity of their attack on him and what they were willing to do completely destroys somebody's life.
[35:30.040 --> 35:32.140]  Of course, we're seeing the same thing again with Kevin Mitnick.
[35:33.100 --> 35:33.500]  Um...
[35:33.500 --> 35:34.420]  They also, uh...
[35:34.420 --> 35:35.240]  Didn't just attack me.
[35:35.380 --> 35:36.700]  They attacked, uh...
[35:36.700 --> 35:37.980]  Other critics of their behavior.
[35:38.320 --> 35:38.540]  Uh...
[35:38.540 --> 35:39.380]  There's a...
[35:39.380 --> 35:40.360]  Gentleman, uh...
[35:40.360 --> 35:42.840]  Chris Neitzert, who, uh...
[35:42.840 --> 35:44.520]  Who'd heard of my arrest.
[35:44.920 --> 35:45.340]  Um...
[35:45.340 --> 35:47.360]  He knew of me from the 2600 meetings in Philadelphia.
[35:47.660 --> 35:49.280]  And he posted, uh...
[35:49.280 --> 35:51.760]  You know, a message on a Usenet news group.
[35:51.820 --> 35:52.460]  I forget which one.
[35:53.240 --> 35:53.840]  Uh...
[35:53.840 --> 35:55.420]  It was somewhat critical.
[35:55.660 --> 35:56.120]  It wasn't...
[35:56.120 --> 35:56.760]  It was...
[35:56.760 --> 35:57.700]  Didn't land...
[35:57.700 --> 35:58.980]  It wasn't really...
[35:58.980 --> 36:00.700]  It was pretty mild criticism, in my opinion.
[36:01.140 --> 36:02.320]  But, uh...
[36:02.320 --> 36:03.500]  The gentleman, uh...
[36:03.500 --> 36:05.960]  Who was following Thomas Varney in that one photo.
[36:06.100 --> 36:06.980]  The color photograph.
[36:07.300 --> 36:08.460]  His name is, uh...
[36:09.100 --> 36:09.620]  Uh...
[36:09.620 --> 36:10.400]  Detective John Morris.
[36:10.640 --> 36:10.860]  With...
[36:11.300 --> 36:12.340]  Gentleman right there on the left.
[36:12.580 --> 36:13.180]  Fat guy.
[36:13.700 --> 36:14.060]  Yeah.
[36:14.060 --> 36:16.120]  He's a, uh...
[36:16.120 --> 36:17.840]  Narcotics investigator with the, uh...
[36:17.840 --> 36:18.720]  Haverford Township.
[36:19.120 --> 36:20.060]  That's, uh...
[36:20.060 --> 36:21.280]  In southeastern Pennsylvania.
[36:21.600 --> 36:22.460]  In Delaware County.
[36:22.680 --> 36:23.960]  He's a narcotics investigator.
[36:24.380 --> 36:24.520]  Um...
[36:24.520 --> 36:27.360]  He actually thought that quartz crystals I was telling to somebody were...
[36:27.360 --> 36:28.180]  Were narcotics.
[36:30.960 --> 36:32.240]  But, uh...
[36:32.240 --> 36:32.760]  This...
[36:32.760 --> 36:33.940]  Mr. Varney steered him...
[36:33.940 --> 36:35.980]  Steered him straight on that little misconception.
[36:38.360 --> 36:39.000]  Um...
[36:39.000 --> 36:41.000]  Mr. Uh...
[36:41.000 --> 36:41.040]  Uh...
[36:41.040 --> 36:41.140]  Uh...
[36:41.140 --> 36:42.740]  Mr. Detective Morris, uh...
[36:42.740 --> 36:43.640]  Threatened, uh...
[36:43.640 --> 36:45.400]  Mr. Chris Neitzer, who posted this, uh...
[36:45.400 --> 36:47.020]  Mildly critical...
[36:47.020 --> 36:47.540]  Post.
[36:48.040 --> 36:48.460]  Um...
[36:48.460 --> 36:49.480]  Threatened him with, uh...
[36:49.480 --> 36:51.260]  With a lawsuit for defamation of character.
[36:51.880 --> 36:54.960]  And also threatened the university where he was, uh...
[36:54.960 --> 36:55.400]  Attending.
[36:55.600 --> 36:56.240]  Temple University.
[36:57.020 --> 36:59.840]  With a lawsuit for allowing him to post that message, uh...
[36:59.840 --> 37:00.620]  Through one of their servers.
[37:02.140 --> 37:02.660]  Uh...
[37:02.660 --> 37:04.700]  Didn't the Secret Service also, uh...
[37:04.700 --> 37:07.200]  Openly criticize 2600 meetings, uh...
[37:07.200 --> 37:09.700]  I'm sorry, 2600 magazine in, uh...
[37:09.700 --> 37:10.420]  One of these court...
[37:10.420 --> 37:11.180]  Court dates?
[37:11.420 --> 37:13.220]  Yeah, well, the thing is, uh...
[37:13.220 --> 37:13.380]  At...
[37:13.380 --> 37:15.200]  At one of Bernie's, um...
[37:15.200 --> 37:16.200]  Sentencing hearings.
[37:16.980 --> 37:17.120]  Uh...
[37:17.120 --> 37:18.200]  Tom Varney, and this...
[37:18.200 --> 37:19.300]  This is, um...
[37:19.300 --> 37:19.960]  This is available.
[37:20.220 --> 37:21.200]  I believe, uh...
[37:21.200 --> 37:21.540]  From...
[37:21.540 --> 37:22.220]  From the government.
[37:22.400 --> 37:23.780]  You can buy a copy of this.
[37:24.080 --> 37:27.740]  But one of the things that Tom Varney was saying, uh...
[37:27.740 --> 37:30.000]  Was reason to lock Bernie S up for even longer.
[37:30.040 --> 37:33.240]  Was the fact that all of these people are...
[37:33.240 --> 37:37.220]  Are making phone calls and criticizing what the Secret Service is doing.
[37:37.220 --> 37:39.600]  Somebody sent mail to the First Lady.
[37:40.400 --> 37:41.560]  Like, you know, yeah.
[37:42.300 --> 37:43.700]  So it doesn't have to do with anything.
[37:44.160 --> 37:44.940]  They, uh...
[37:44.940 --> 37:49.620]  You know, apparently because somebody sent mail to Hillary Clinton, that means that Bernie S is a threat to society.
[37:50.200 --> 37:52.820]  I mean, maybe in their view of how the Internet works, that's true.
[37:52.820 --> 37:55.200]  That was a stretch of logic that they were using.
[37:55.820 --> 37:55.920]  And...
[37:55.920 --> 37:58.300]  And then he went on to say, uh...
[37:58.300 --> 38:01.580]  His supporters have taken it upon themselves to...
[38:01.580 --> 38:03.700]  And that's when the judge cut him off and said, uh...
[38:03.700 --> 38:05.120]  This has nothing to do with the case.
[38:05.660 --> 38:06.100]  Uh...
[38:06.100 --> 38:08.360]  But I'm gonna sentence him to a lot of jail time anyway.
[38:09.520 --> 38:09.960]  Um...
[38:09.960 --> 38:11.200]  So yeah, they...
[38:11.700 --> 38:13.280]  It was amazing watching this.
[38:13.420 --> 38:15.180]  Because a bunch of us went down to Pennsylvania.
[38:16.180 --> 38:16.620]  And...
[38:16.620 --> 38:18.720]  And witnessed just what they did to him.
[38:18.720 --> 38:22.880]  And it was amazing seeing how the local bumpkins of the...
[38:22.880 --> 38:27.920]  The particular small town that he was being sentenced in reacted to a Secret Service agent being in town.
[38:28.080 --> 38:30.320]  It was like, you know, Elvis, you know, coming by.
[38:30.580 --> 38:32.440]  Everybody wanted to be part of the Secret Service.
[38:32.560 --> 38:33.940]  And they would do whatever this guy said.
[38:34.160 --> 38:35.380]  There's only 2,000 of them.
[38:36.160 --> 38:36.760]  It's, uh...
[38:36.760 --> 38:39.860]  Yeah, they are one of the meanest gangs in town.
[38:40.000 --> 38:40.340]  That's for sure.
[38:40.660 --> 38:41.520]  Didn't, uh...
[38:41.520 --> 38:42.480]  Radio station, uh...
[38:42.480 --> 38:45.520]  WBAI also receive a telephone call from the Secret Service?
[38:45.700 --> 38:46.160]  Yeah, I...
[38:46.160 --> 38:47.620]  You mentioned earlier that, uh...
[38:47.620 --> 38:49.620]  WBAI, we aired the show off the hook.
[38:49.860 --> 38:50.120]  Uh...
[38:50.120 --> 38:52.440]  We had quite a lot of material on the Bernie S.
[38:52.580 --> 38:52.820]  case.
[38:53.640 --> 38:56.260]  And one of the things that happened after...
[38:56.260 --> 38:57.920]  Bernie would speak to us from prison.
[38:58.500 --> 38:58.840]  Uh...
[38:58.840 --> 39:02.100]  And one of the things that happened was the Secret Service contacted the radio station.
[39:02.420 --> 39:03.560]  WBAI here in New York.
[39:04.300 --> 39:05.100]  And they...
[39:05.100 --> 39:05.860]  They...
[39:06.420 --> 39:09.320]  Kind of demanded that we stop doing this.
[39:09.320 --> 39:10.760]  Because it was, uh...
[39:10.760 --> 39:10.820]  Uh...
[39:10.820 --> 39:11.980]  It was of concern...
[39:11.980 --> 39:15.440]  To them that it might cause a, um...
[39:15.440 --> 39:15.720]  Uh...
[39:15.720 --> 39:16.520]  Some sort of a...
[39:16.520 --> 39:18.260]  A problem within the prison system.
[39:18.420 --> 39:20.540]  Or it might make people think critically of the government.
[39:20.740 --> 39:21.520]  Or something like this.
[39:22.100 --> 39:24.280]  I guess they hadn't heard of WBAI before.
[39:24.540 --> 39:25.200]  And what, uh...
[39:25.200 --> 39:25.480]  What, uh...
[39:25.480 --> 39:26.220]  We stand for.
[39:26.380 --> 39:28.040]  And how we don't take any shit from anybody.
[39:28.680 --> 39:29.120]  Uh...
[39:29.120 --> 39:33.700]  But basically, we refused to stop airing, uh...
[39:33.700 --> 39:34.340]  Bernie S.
[39:34.460 --> 39:34.780]  interviews.
[39:35.160 --> 39:36.560]  Didn't they also demand tapes?
[39:36.560 --> 39:40.900]  They demanded tapes and we told them, you know, you can just listen to the station yourself.
[39:41.300 --> 39:42.060]  You know, we don't...
[39:42.060 --> 39:43.360]  We don't, uh...
[39:43.360 --> 39:46.880]  Have these tapes lying around just for, you know, you government people to...
[39:46.880 --> 39:47.960]  To have whatever you want.
[39:48.120 --> 39:48.260]  So...
[39:48.260 --> 39:49.500]  You want a tape to show?
[39:49.600 --> 39:50.180]  Tape to show.
[39:50.860 --> 39:51.200]  And...
[39:51.200 --> 39:52.160]  Apparently they do.
[39:52.220 --> 39:53.000]  Now they can get the CD.
[39:53.180 --> 39:53.680]  Yeah, we have...
[39:53.680 --> 39:54.800]  We have the whole thing outside.
[39:55.380 --> 39:55.820]  So...
[39:55.820 --> 39:58.780]  The two gentlemen you see here are the two that really were the...
[39:58.780 --> 40:00.660]  The head men in my, uh...
[40:00.660 --> 40:01.400]  My prosecution.
[40:01.740 --> 40:03.520]  Both of them, um...
[40:03.520 --> 40:05.440]  Literally threatened, uh...
[40:05.440 --> 40:07.620]  Individuals who were speaking out, um...
[40:08.140 --> 40:08.960]  Against their behavior.
[40:09.940 --> 40:10.380]  And, uh...
[40:10.380 --> 40:11.460]  That doesn't seem very professional.
[40:11.680 --> 40:13.280]  Or legal to me, but...
[40:13.280 --> 40:15.040]  The thing is, 2600 has...
[40:15.040 --> 40:17.820]  Has frided itself over the years as, uh...
[40:17.820 --> 40:18.780]  Challenging authority.
[40:19.920 --> 40:20.140]  Uh...
[40:20.140 --> 40:22.840]  When somebody threatens us with a lawsuit, we print the letter.
[40:23.240 --> 40:24.800]  You know, and that usually stops it.
[40:25.040 --> 40:30.840]  Or we just continue doing it anyway because there's nothing illegal about it and we don't respond well to threats.
[40:31.600 --> 40:32.140]  Uh...
[40:32.140 --> 40:35.640]  This particular thing, we didn't respond very well to that either.
[40:36.020 --> 40:39.040]  And our reaction was to post on our website.
[40:39.180 --> 40:41.780]  Actually, maybe we can go back to the, uh...
[40:41.780 --> 40:43.100]  To the main secret service page.
[40:45.040 --> 40:46.120]  Okay, now...
[40:46.120 --> 40:47.500]  We put this page up.
[40:48.360 --> 40:48.900]  Um...
[40:48.900 --> 40:49.900]  Go to more info.
[40:50.800 --> 40:51.540]  It's a laser pointer.
[40:51.540 --> 40:51.980]  Uh...
[40:51.980 --> 40:53.220]  We decided to, uh...
[40:53.220 --> 40:53.960]  To put this up.
[40:54.340 --> 40:56.080]  In direct response.
[40:57.220 --> 40:57.860]  To...
[40:57.860 --> 40:59.400]  What was happening to Bernie S.
[40:59.980 --> 41:01.240]  All kinds of fact names.
[41:01.600 --> 41:04.820]  Facts, code names, things like that about the secret service.
[41:06.560 --> 41:07.200]  And...
[41:08.840 --> 41:11.640]  One of the things we have here is a complete listing.
[41:12.160 --> 41:14.960]  A complete listing of secret service frequencies.
[41:15.840 --> 41:19.320]  A complete listing of secret service code names.
[41:20.140 --> 41:20.620]  Uh...
[41:20.620 --> 41:21.260]  Go to some code names.
[41:21.400 --> 41:21.760]  That's kind of...
[41:22.160 --> 41:22.400]  Code names are good.
[41:22.400 --> 41:23.600]  That's kind of some humorous ones there.
[41:24.100 --> 41:25.000]  No, it's interesting.
[41:25.120 --> 41:25.600]  What we said...
[41:25.600 --> 41:30.200]  What we said to them, or to the world in general, was...
[41:30.200 --> 41:33.380]  You were all upset at one person having this.
[41:33.880 --> 41:37.380]  And you prosecuted him for having this information which is completely legal.
[41:37.620 --> 41:47.800]  And as a direct result of your paranoia and your willingness to ruin someone's life for having this legally obtainable information, now millions of people around the world have access to it.
[41:47.800 --> 41:50.580]  And it was a demonstration of the power of the web.
[41:50.820 --> 41:53.800]  But it was also kind of scary because we didn't know what they would do next.
[41:54.020 --> 41:54.980]  Now here's the funny thing.
[41:55.680 --> 42:01.400]  When contacted about this by the press, the secret service said, there's nothing wrong with that.
[42:01.520 --> 42:02.840]  It's perfectly legal information.
[42:02.840 --> 42:08.420]  Which was, like, directly opposite of what Agent Barney repeatedly said in court.
[42:09.080 --> 42:14.660]  So, you know, they talk out of both sides of their mouths and say whatever is convenient at that time.
[42:17.560 --> 42:19.740]  This information changes from time to time.
[42:19.840 --> 42:24.900]  A lot of these you'll see is old, like, you know, expired presidents and that sort of thing.
[42:24.900 --> 42:34.300]  Um, if you, if you study these code names, you'll see some common, common things like everyone in a particular first family, uh, their code name begins with the same letter.
[42:34.880 --> 42:36.580]  Um, that sort of thing.
[42:37.440 --> 42:49.220]  But, uh, this information, uh, a lot of the information I had as far as the code names came from a 1981 magazine article in Monitoring Times magazine.
[42:49.440 --> 42:52.180]  It was a good magazine about monitoring radio frequencies.
[42:52.800 --> 43:03.840]  And, uh, while they didn't say it was from a magazine article, they, you know, repeatedly said it was, it was information that concerned them greatly without, you know, bothering to mention that it was in a 15-year-old magazine article.
[43:04.520 --> 43:22.640]  But, um, you know, they, they're, Matt, I would, I would have to say, and I think, uh, Phiber can probably, uh, attest to this, too, that they're, the federal government is really, when it comes to prosecuting criminal cases, uh, FBI, Secret Service, and prosecutors are really masters at,
[43:22.640 --> 43:27.500]  at twisting information around and making it sound, uh, much more serious than it is.
[43:27.900 --> 43:38.620]  And, uh, because it's the Secret Service saying it, or the FBI, or, or a federal prosecutor, um, a lot of people believe it and give it a lot of weight.
[43:39.280 --> 43:45.480]  Um, so, you know, we're doing our best to debunk, debunk, uh, this type of activity.
[43:45.760 --> 43:49.100]  And we're, we're, uh, still, uh, updating this information.
[43:49.180 --> 44:05.140]  If anybody has, uh, other photographs of Secret Service agents, or code names, or, uh, actual names of agents, or any other tidbits of information about the Secret Service, or other agencies that have been harassing, uh, the hacking community, um, please send it in,
[44:05.220 --> 44:06.840]  and we'll, uh, we'll put it up on the web page.
[44:08.020 --> 44:14.480]  Uh, now, Pam has, has been very active in this whole thing, uh, when it started getting bigger and bigger.
[44:14.880 --> 44:16.600]  I, it went beyond the magazine.
[44:16.820 --> 44:21.240]  We started, um, involving people over the radio waves, uh, people from the media.
[44:21.660 --> 44:26.300]  And before you knew it, we had this whole big protest movement going to get Bernie S.
[44:26.460 --> 44:26.740]  out of jail.
[44:26.840 --> 44:30.700]  Now, I don't want to spend too much more time on this, because this is about the magazine, and we have to move on to other things.
[44:30.880 --> 44:38.780]  But briefly, Pam, can you tell us how that happened, how you got involved in it, and, uh, where it all led?
[44:40.640 --> 44:45.880]  I guess what I could really say about that is, uh, it's amazing the power of email and the internet.
[44:46.180 --> 44:48.820]  I know you all know that, but it was really surprising.
[44:49.300 --> 44:57.340]  The response from people just out of the woodwork, um, you know, we need help, we need this, we need faxes, we need phone calls, was just really incredible.
[44:58.100 --> 45:02.660]  Uh, you guys all probably know what happened to Ed towards the end of while he was in jail.
[45:03.460 --> 45:06.380]  Um, you know, it was unbelievable, the response.
[45:06.980 --> 45:09.870]  Um, I guess, what happened, uh...
[45:10.500 --> 45:14.440]  Well, on Sunday we'll have the prisoner panel, we'll get into full details, but basically...
[45:14.440 --> 45:25.880]  We'll go into that in details, but basically, yeah, between the radio show and the magazine and the Voice VBS, we just had everybody, probably a lot of you who are here actually, um, just really came out and helped.
[45:26.040 --> 45:29.040]  And that's the power of something like 2600.
[45:29.180 --> 45:32.500]  You can use it as an organizational tool to get help for people.
[45:33.080 --> 45:35.240]  Um, it was really, really, really amazing.
[45:36.760 --> 45:41.040]  Uh, my, my question was gonna be, uh, Ed sparked something in me.
[45:41.260 --> 45:42.460]  He said, debunk the myth.
[45:42.800 --> 45:46.300]  Are you gonna ask people if they want to debunk the myths of 2600 magazine?
[45:47.100 --> 45:47.540]  Sure.
[45:47.940 --> 45:49.700]  What, what myths are there about 2600?
[45:50.600 --> 45:51.500]  We'll debunk them.
[45:53.240 --> 45:55.620]  I think she wants questions from the floor.
[45:55.960 --> 45:56.420]  Oh, yeah, okay.
[45:56.420 --> 46:02.980]  If anybody has questions, uh, where that brilliant light is shining on us, that's where the microphone, where the person's waving his arms.
[46:03.080 --> 46:05.200]  Just walk over there and ask, ask your question.
[46:06.040 --> 46:13.240]  Um, and while people are, are stumbling over themselves to get there, uh, Phiber also went to prison a couple of years ago.
[46:13.280 --> 46:18.100]  I don't want to forget about what happened to him, because there was also another living hell and a complete waste of time.
[46:18.820 --> 46:25.240]  Um, he didn't go through as much physical torture as, uh, as Bernie did, but, uh, a lot of mental anguish.
[46:25.380 --> 46:26.500]  You want to tell us briefly what happened?
[46:27.100 --> 46:28.780]  Well, first, just, just a show of hands.
[46:28.840 --> 46:30.960]  How many Secret Service agents do we have in the audience tonight?
[46:32.660 --> 46:33.380]  Thanks for coming.
[46:33.540 --> 46:34.080]  Thank you, please.
[46:34.320 --> 46:35.340]  That's, that's our sound man.
[46:37.440 --> 46:39.360]  Without you, this website would not have been possible.
[46:39.360 --> 46:42.400]  Uh, I blew his cover.
[46:43.680 --> 46:56.340]  Well, unlike, uh, unlike Ed's legal case, my legal case, uh, had to do more with, uh, I guess what, what you consider electronic breaking and entering, computer trespassing.
[47:06.600 --> 47:08.000]  We send that to Netscape.
[47:08.160 --> 47:09.240]  That really shouldn't have happened.
[47:11.980 --> 47:13.620]  I think we crashed the Secret Service.
[47:14.740 --> 47:15.720]  Microsoft at work.
[47:17.080 --> 47:17.620]  It's a conspiracy.
[47:17.680 --> 47:18.180]  Yeah, where's, where's a Mac?
[47:18.300 --> 47:18.880]  Do we have a Mac?
[47:22.760 --> 47:29.960]  Anyway, uh, my, my case had a lot more to do with, uh, electronic breaking and entering, uh, computer trespassing, if you, if you will.
[47:30.620 --> 47:35.380]  Um, the things that were similar with, uh, Ed's case were the aftermath.
[47:36.020 --> 47:40.240]  Was that they, uh, used my, my circumstance to make an example.
[47:40.740 --> 47:43.280]  To, uh, set an example, to send a message.
[47:43.680 --> 47:46.400]  Which was that, uh, computer trespassing was wrong.
[47:46.600 --> 47:47.180]  It was evil.
[47:47.800 --> 47:49.840]  And, uh, that it, it shouldn't be done.
[47:49.960 --> 47:51.520]  And here's what's gonna happen to you if you do.
[47:52.380 --> 47:57.560]  Well, the ironic thing is that, uh, I, I make a living.
[47:57.560 --> 47:58.500]  Right now.
[47:59.180 --> 48:00.980]  Doing computer trespassing.
[48:01.480 --> 48:04.360]  Only, I have permission from the people that I'm doing it for.
[48:05.340 --> 48:12.040]  And so, I'm kinda confused as to what the Secret Service and the FBI and the judge's message was.
[48:12.240 --> 48:18.860]  Because, if the message was, if you get caught hacking, then you can make a living doing it.
[48:18.960 --> 48:20.800]  Then, I, I guess, I guess they were right.
[48:27.340 --> 48:31.220]  But, it was, uh, it was a really, uh, harrowing experience.
[48:31.380 --> 48:34.320]  And, uh, one, one that I probably won't soon forget.
[48:35.200 --> 48:38.960]  And, uh, I, I'm, I'm on probation even now.
[48:39.220 --> 48:45.080]  And, it, it seems kinda ridiculous to me to have to pay for things that are considered crimes.
[48:45.080 --> 48:48.980]  That happened when I was 15 or 16 years old.
[48:49.180 --> 48:51.080]  And, I'm, I'm 25 years old now.
[48:51.260 --> 48:54.220]  And, you know, it, it really doesn't make any sense whatsoever.
[48:54.240 --> 48:57.060]  It's just a really, it's a really senseless thing.
[48:58.240 --> 49:03.520]  We, we, we hear lots of cases where people did something, say, three, four years ago.
[49:03.740 --> 49:08.280]  And, have gone on to lead completely respectable lives, get nice jobs and things like that.
[49:08.400 --> 49:14.640]  And then, all of a sudden, the Secret Service or some other organization comes down on them for what they did several years earlier, when they were kids.
[49:15.260 --> 49:17.280]  And, their lives become living hell.
[49:17.500 --> 49:18.860]  And, they lose their jobs.
[49:19.060 --> 49:21.500]  And, it's, it's just pointless and senseless.
[49:22.140 --> 49:23.640]  Okay, uh, let's take some questions.
[49:27.070 --> 49:28.150]  That, uh, yeah, go ahead.
[49:28.150 --> 49:38.350]  It's, it's pretty, it's pretty clear to a lot of people in here, and a lot of people who've read the magazine over the years, that, uh, you support some things that we individually support.
[49:39.230 --> 49:41.750]  Uh, some causes, Bernie, Phiber.
[49:42.530 --> 49:54.350]  Is there a, uh, a single concept or, or, uh, mission statement for the magazine, and, uh, for the work of 2600 that you hold out?
[49:54.350 --> 49:57.230]  I mean, is there a yardstick that you measure stuff against?
[49:57.550 --> 50:01.410]  So, uh, to, to, to figure out whether you're gonna deal with it or not?
[50:01.570 --> 50:04.810]  Well, there's things, there's things that we don't do.
[50:05.190 --> 50:06.790]  Uh, there's lines we don't cross.
[50:07.170 --> 50:10.530]  Uh, we won't print specific passwords to specific systems.
[50:10.710 --> 50:14.770]  We won't do things like get involved with credit card, uh, crap like that.
[50:14.770 --> 50:19.930]  You know, we're into the, the, the spread of information.
[50:20.350 --> 50:26.750]  If something, if something works in a certain way, then we'll explain exactly how that works.
[50:27.030 --> 50:30.090]  No matter who is inconvenienced by that explanation.
[50:30.410 --> 50:34.890]  Now, we don't consider ourselves to be leftist, rightist, libertarian, whatever.
[50:35.070 --> 50:38.010]  People always telling us, you represent this particular political philosophy.
[50:38.010 --> 50:41.250]  And, you know, hackers come from all different political events.
[50:41.470 --> 50:45.790]  So, we're not gonna stand there and say this is where we're coming from, this is what we believe in.
[50:46.190 --> 50:52.290]  Basically, what we believe in is spreading information, explaining how things work, and not doing malicious things.
[50:53.170 --> 50:53.910]  Simple enough.
[50:53.910 --> 50:57.110]  You could kind of say it's hack fast, die young.
[51:02.150 --> 51:02.790]  Go ahead.
[51:03.090 --> 51:05.270]  Hi, uh, I recently moved...
[51:05.270 --> 51:05.870]  I almost did.
[51:07.090 --> 51:20.430]  I recently moved, uh, five blocks in one neighborhood, and, uh, NYNEX charged me, uh, $55 to reconnect my phone, even though I have the same phone number in both, from both locations.
[51:20.570 --> 51:25.870]  And I'm just wondering if there's any way to fight this, because what did they really charge me to do?
[51:25.970 --> 51:29.110]  To flip a switch electronically on a computer, $55?
[51:29.750 --> 51:30.030]  That's...
[51:30.030 --> 51:31.050]  It's an expensive switch.
[51:31.050 --> 51:32.370]  Yeah, they do this a lot.
[51:32.590 --> 51:33.290]  That's quite a lot.
[51:33.290 --> 51:35.190]  And it's not even a new telephone number.
[51:35.350 --> 51:36.390]  And I'm an old customer.
[51:36.550 --> 51:39.070]  You would think they would want to keep an old customer.
[51:39.290 --> 51:50.670]  Also, uh, Time Warner Cable charged me $40 to connect the cable to my VCR, even though they said that what they would have to do is run up a pole and, you know, turn a switch or something.
[51:50.670 --> 51:55.170]  And the guy who came over and did the wiring said he didn't have to switch a thing.
[51:55.430 --> 51:58.930]  So, how can one fight these, uh, ridiculous charges?
[51:59.230 --> 52:06.810]  Well, you fight them by complaining about them to things like the Public Service Commission, uh, writing letters, calling, calling radio call-in shows.
[52:08.410 --> 52:10.450]  Um, just telling more people about it.
[52:10.450 --> 52:14.310]  I mean, that's how the touch-tone fee got wiped out because a lot of people complain about it.
[52:14.470 --> 52:16.510]  You still have crap like gold numbers.
[52:16.690 --> 52:21.310]  You know, you get a special number and you have to pay a monthly maintenance fee every month to keep the number.
[52:21.570 --> 52:22.370]  You know, maintenance for what?
[52:22.450 --> 52:23.050]  There's no maintenance.
[52:23.730 --> 52:26.410]  Uh, why do you pay to keep your number out of the phone book?
[52:26.590 --> 52:28.110]  You know, what the hell's up with that?
[52:29.090 --> 52:31.530]  The phone company gets away with it because they can.
[52:31.530 --> 52:34.830]  And if people start complaining about it, then it'll stop.
[52:35.030 --> 52:36.650]  But people have to start complaining.
[52:37.290 --> 52:39.050]  That's, uh, you know, we found that to be true.
[52:39.310 --> 52:49.650]  When, um, when caller ID was introduced in this state, uh, a lot of us were very upset that, um, that blocking, which, which blocking exists in this state.
[52:49.790 --> 52:50.790]  It didn't exist in every state.
[52:50.990 --> 52:56.830]  And because New York is very concerned about privacy, it was allowed, uh, in this state to have all-call blocking.
[52:56.830 --> 53:02.630]  But we were concerned that star six seven was the code both to block and to unblock.
[53:02.850 --> 53:03.810]  It was like a toggle switch.
[53:03.970 --> 53:06.730]  Well, what if you're at someone's house and you don't know what they have it set to?
[53:06.770 --> 53:08.590]  How do you know if you're blocking or unblocking?
[53:08.910 --> 53:09.290]  You know?
[53:09.430 --> 53:10.290]  What if you forget?
[53:10.450 --> 53:11.710]  What if you don't know which one you have?
[53:12.070 --> 53:17.490]  So after a while, they introduced star eight two to, um, uh, to unblock.
[53:18.490 --> 53:21.030]  Star six seven blocks, star eight two unblocks.
[53:21.150 --> 53:21.230]  Yeah.
[53:21.490 --> 53:22.490]  It's confusing as hell.
[53:23.130 --> 53:25.470]  And, um, other things like that.
[53:25.470 --> 53:26.650]  But NYNEX has responded.
[53:26.810 --> 53:30.150]  We complained about the stupid yellow phones all over the city that didn't do anything.
[53:30.530 --> 53:32.210]  And, uh, they got rid of them finally.
[53:32.530 --> 53:36.070]  Uh, we complained about people being able to star six nine private numbers.
[53:36.350 --> 53:38.510]  Well, they can't star six nine private numbers anymore.
[53:39.030 --> 53:43.950]  So, if you're vocal enough, if enough people support what you're saying, then things can change.
[53:45.190 --> 53:45.630]  Question?
[53:49.410 --> 53:50.990]  Are you just walking by the microphone?
[53:52.070 --> 53:54.490]  Yeah, just a brief comment.
[53:54.490 --> 54:07.110]  Uh, a little while back while I was on the phone, I had a busy signal and I had a request as to whether I wanted to have them call me back and charge on my phone.
[54:07.110 --> 54:10.850]  And that broke in when I had just made my phone call.
[54:11.010 --> 54:12.150]  It wasn't a star option.
[54:12.390 --> 54:26.610]  I was just wondering whether anybody else has heard about, um, that sort of thing and what the potential abuses of an automated system as far as, uh, usurping intellectual property rights that belong in the public communications systems.
[54:26.610 --> 54:30.490]  Let me interrupt you for a second because we can't hear what in the hell you're saying.
[54:31.290 --> 54:32.770]  I think I heard him.
[54:32.870 --> 54:36.950]  He was, you're talking about, uh, when you dial a number, you're getting a busy signal.
[54:37.050 --> 54:40.410]  It's asking you to hit, uh, a three to return the call.
[54:42.230 --> 54:44.690]  I, I don't think anyone else here has ever heard of that.
[54:47.310 --> 54:49.490]  There's a terrific section in the middle of the magazine.
[54:49.650 --> 54:50.570]  It starts on page 30.
[54:50.910 --> 54:52.010]  Um, it's called the letter section.
[54:52.010 --> 54:56.230]  You're welcome to write any letters that you'd like to, to our editor.
[54:56.790 --> 54:59.250]  And they will probably, um, be unanswered.
[54:59.570 --> 55:05.590]  But, uh, this, uh, panel is about the magazine itself and not specific phone questions.
[55:05.590 --> 55:07.990]  Yeah, if you have phone questions, save them for off the hook tomorrow.
[55:07.990 --> 55:10.070]  We're doing a live, uh, radio broadcast from here.
[55:10.270 --> 55:11.610]  And we can take questions like that there.
[55:11.750 --> 55:14.910]  But this is really about the magazine and the issues surrounding the magazine.
[55:15.510 --> 55:16.010]  Go ahead.
[55:17.750 --> 55:18.790]  Can't hear you at all now.
[55:19.970 --> 55:20.750]  I don't think so.
[55:20.850 --> 55:21.250]  Uh, it's not on.
[55:22.610 --> 55:23.790]  I'm thinking of...
[55:23.790 --> 55:24.010]  Alright, uh...
[55:24.010 --> 55:24.670]  That's better.
[55:24.790 --> 55:30.270]  I was wondering if you had any comment about the recent demise of Internet Underground.
[55:31.470 --> 55:32.910]  Well, I'm very sad about it.
[55:33.070 --> 55:34.030]  Uh, it was a good magazine.
[55:34.030 --> 55:37.030]  Um, I mean, that's really all I can say.
[55:37.390 --> 55:41.050]  Rob Bernstein is here, uh, who was a writer for Internet Underground.
[55:41.210 --> 55:42.430]  Did some work for the Bernie S.
[55:42.570 --> 55:43.910]  case, you know, covering that.
[55:44.130 --> 55:47.370]  Uh, sent the infamous fax that got Bernie in a lot of trouble.
[55:48.210 --> 55:48.690]  Unwittingly.
[55:49.490 --> 55:52.770]  Um, he'll be on the media panel, which is tomorrow evening.
[55:53.130 --> 55:56.790]  So, uh, he can talk more about Internet Underground and, and why it failed.
[55:57.270 --> 56:01.730]  Um, but it's, it's always sad to see a publication go down.
[56:01.730 --> 56:04.230]  Uh, we'd like to see a lot more publications.
[56:04.390 --> 56:08.010]  I remember saying this in 1994, that we'd like to see more hacker publications.
[56:08.710 --> 56:11.330]  And, um, you know, there's a new Dutch magazine out.
[56:11.670 --> 56:14.430]  But then again, the old Dutch magazine stopped printing.
[56:14.610 --> 56:16.150]  So, we really haven't gotten anywhere.
[56:16.770 --> 56:19.900]  Um, I think there's enough out there for a lot of different hacker publications.
[56:19.900 --> 56:22.060]  Not just online, but in print.
[56:25.690 --> 56:26.290]  Hello?
[56:26.710 --> 56:30.830]  I've wondered whether the, um, wiretapping laws, I'm sorry.
[56:31.070 --> 56:36.510]  Uh, the wire fraud laws could be used against federal agents or other agents who molest us.
[56:36.510 --> 56:43.150]  Or could it be part of a counter suit or, or may bring charges against hackers?
[56:43.870 --> 56:47.230]  For their deceptions and false statements over the wires?
[56:50.490 --> 56:50.970]  What's...
[56:50.970 --> 56:51.770]  Can you hear him?
[56:53.070 --> 56:54.250]  I'm not, I'm not sure I...
[56:54.250 --> 56:55.310]  Again, we're having a lot of trouble hearing you.
[56:55.310 --> 56:56.750]  We, we had trouble hearing you.
[56:56.830 --> 57:09.930]  But, uh, what I think you said was, uh, can we, can we use, uh, these, uh, wire fraud, uh, statutes, uh, turn the tables, and use them against, uh, the feds?
[57:10.490 --> 57:11.570]  Um, unfortunately not.
[57:11.710 --> 57:13.590]  I, I think probably Phiber noticed this also.
[57:13.930 --> 57:31.530]  If you read over the, the title 18, which is the, uh, the body of federal criminal statutes, there's this curious little exception at the end of each, uh, um, um, statute that says, uh, uh, the, uh, the, this, this law shall not apply to any local, state, or federal law enforcement officer.
[57:34.670 --> 57:37.350]  So, bottom line is they're pretty much exempt from this stuff.
[57:41.210 --> 57:42.370]  I think that's what he asked.
[57:42.530 --> 57:46.450]  Uh, I just wanted to make a comment, actually, about the magazine.
[57:46.850 --> 57:55.390]  And, uh, you were talking about how you don't publish specific passwords to specific systems, and so on and so forth.
[57:55.390 --> 58:08.130]  But, in years past, and what I'm thinking about, in reference, when I'm making this question, is an issue back in 1991, where you published a list of out-dials to the Internet back then.
[58:08.930 --> 58:18.170]  Um, and you published the specific systems that they were part of, and you published, obviously, the full phone number and everything else.
[58:18.170 --> 58:26.990]  And I've noticed that, over the years, that kind of specific information seems to be found less and less.
[58:27.110 --> 58:28.630]  You have general overviews.
[58:28.730 --> 58:36.130]  If there's a whole system of, uh, a way to break into something, you will go into that.
[58:36.130 --> 58:40.130]  But, like you said, you don't usually publish specific information.
[58:40.130 --> 58:42.330]  But I noticed that in the past, you used to.
[58:42.430 --> 58:55.110]  And I was wondering whether or not, as you became a larger publication, you felt that you were more open to attack, legally, or criminally, I mean, civilly or criminally, from these organizations, and that's why you stopped.
[58:55.110 --> 58:57.590]  Well, there's a couple reasons that we stopped.
[58:57.890 --> 59:03.550]  Um, in 1991, when we published that, um, the circulation of the magazine was around 7,000.
[59:03.630 --> 59:04.690]  Now it's around 40,000.
[59:04.910 --> 59:09.610]  We published that, and the day that the subscribers get their issue in the mail, it no longer works.
[59:09.850 --> 59:11.430]  We don't publish irrelevant information.
[59:11.810 --> 59:16.690]  And, uh, in the day that somebody gets it and starts abusing it, is the day that it stops working.
[59:17.690 --> 59:24.250]  Well, actually, just as an aside, um, some of those numbers were working into 1993.
[59:25.170 --> 59:27.030]  Well, that was four years ago.
[59:28.750 --> 59:31.690]  We don't have a problem printing things like that.
[59:31.830 --> 59:37.430]  It's not accessing a system so much as getting a way to make a local call.
[59:37.670 --> 59:39.290]  It's meant for people to use.
[59:39.290 --> 59:41.390]  It's just not meant for so many people to use.
[59:42.230 --> 59:48.450]  Uh, so, personally, I don't consider that the same thing as breaking into a particular system.
[59:48.970 --> 59:54.170]  To me, that seems to be a way to access the network in an alternative manner.
[59:54.770 --> 59:56.830]  I think I could draw an analogy here.
[59:57.470 --> 01:00:02.590]  About, uh, ten or fifteen years ago, we used to post calling cards and passwords on BBSs.
[01:00:02.830 --> 01:00:04.250]  But we don't do that anymore.
[01:00:04.730 --> 01:00:07.950]  Because there's a lot more people who can find them.
[01:00:08.090 --> 01:00:10.570]  And if we did post them, they'd go dead a lot quicker.
[01:00:11.070 --> 01:00:12.330]  So why post them?
[01:00:12.330 --> 01:00:21.090]  Because when we first called BBSs, there were maybe a couple other dozen people in the entire Northeast that called BBSs.
[01:00:21.270 --> 01:00:24.170]  The only reason we called them was to get in touch with those people.
[01:00:24.790 --> 01:00:32.110]  So, at the time when 2600 printed these things, it was because it was a lot harder for people to gain access to the information in general.
[01:00:32.110 --> 01:00:34.010]  Today, it's a lot easier.
[01:00:34.190 --> 01:00:38.470]  You could call up a friend of yours down the street and he might be able to give you a password to something.
[01:00:38.690 --> 01:00:43.510]  You don't really need a magazine to tell you what a password is or what a dial-up is.
[01:00:44.090 --> 01:00:50.350]  You know, it also brings an interesting point to my mind, which is the kind of whole phenomenon of 2600.
[01:00:50.710 --> 01:01:10.590]  How both Manuel and Dave over here were talking about sneaking into a print shop and photocopying, you know, 12 pages of a magazine once a month that went out to a dozen or so of their friends to there being this conference with, you know, hundreds of people coming from all over the country,
[01:01:10.950 --> 01:01:14.410]  magazines, news stories, radio shows.
[01:01:15.050 --> 01:01:22.810]  And I think that part of the spirit of 2600 is something that I'd like to hear more about on this panel.
[01:01:22.950 --> 01:01:27.830]  I wish, you know, I go blank when I'm talking in front of two or three hundred of my closest friends.
[01:01:27.830 --> 01:01:33.430]  And I can't think of, you know, the kind of stories and things that have gone on.
[01:01:33.530 --> 01:01:45.610]  But I'm curious, you know, whether people have questions, whether there are other people out there who have their own ideas about starting a magazine or working on a project that can, you know, reach and touch so many people.
[01:01:45.790 --> 01:01:58.790]  I mean, there's most of the people in here wouldn't have access to this kind of hacking information if it wasn't for a lot of hard work and a lot of good luck on the parts of the people who have been responsible for the magazine.
[01:01:59.150 --> 01:02:08.830]  For, you know, if it started in 1984, that's, you know, going on 14 years now, which is just, you know, an amazing thing in itself.
[01:02:09.650 --> 01:02:19.250]  You know, I wouldn't mind if Dave could, you know, tell people something about what it was like back then, unless people are getting tired like me.
[01:02:21.770 --> 01:02:28.790]  And kind of hit the real flavor of 2600 more than some of the legal battles it was advocating for.
[01:02:30.410 --> 01:02:35.950]  Well, well, now it's a lot easier to start a magazine since we have laser printers.
[01:02:37.550 --> 01:02:42.890]  A lot easier to not even use a magazine because I think we know how to set up a website.
[01:02:45.410 --> 01:02:50.950]  And use email, listservs, and all this stuff is really available to us.
[01:02:51.230 --> 01:02:51.830]  But, um...
[01:02:51.830 --> 01:02:54.290]  Well, not to mention the fact that you have jobs and money now.
[01:02:55.110 --> 01:02:55.710]  It's true.
[01:02:55.890 --> 01:02:56.310]  I actually...
[01:02:56.310 --> 01:02:56.810]  It helps a little bit.
[01:02:56.950 --> 01:03:02.450]  I actually paid to get in here instead of sneaking in the back door.
[01:03:03.930 --> 01:03:05.530]  Who didn't pay to get in here?
[01:03:05.710 --> 01:03:05.990]  You see?
[01:03:08.470 --> 01:03:09.690]  Make that guy pay.
[01:03:09.850 --> 01:03:10.370]  Go get him.
[01:03:10.810 --> 01:03:11.370]  I paid.
[01:03:12.050 --> 01:03:14.350]  He owes everyone 25 cents.
[01:03:15.110 --> 01:03:16.050]  But, um...
[01:03:16.050 --> 01:03:20.230]  Back then we didn't really have enough money to pay for the copy machine.
[01:03:21.770 --> 01:03:22.330]  Um...
[01:03:22.330 --> 01:03:24.750]  That we would sneak in use.
[01:03:25.730 --> 01:03:26.290]  Um...
[01:03:26.290 --> 01:03:27.230]  And, uh...
[01:03:27.990 --> 01:03:28.550]  Eventually...
[01:03:28.550 --> 01:03:28.950]  Um...
[01:03:28.950 --> 01:03:31.410]  2600 started off as a monthly, actually.
[01:03:32.210 --> 01:03:33.150]  Believe it or not.
[01:03:33.150 --> 01:03:34.590]  Yeah, what a pain in the ass that was.
[01:03:35.150 --> 01:03:36.650]  Every month we had to put out an issue.
[01:03:36.830 --> 01:03:37.290]  It just...
[01:03:37.290 --> 01:03:37.690]  Never stopped.
[01:03:39.210 --> 01:03:39.590]  Um...
[01:03:39.590 --> 01:03:41.370]  We started off, like...
[01:03:41.370 --> 01:03:42.690]  By printing, uh...
[01:03:42.690 --> 01:03:43.470]  G files.
[01:03:45.330 --> 01:03:46.050]  If, uh...
[01:03:46.050 --> 01:03:47.790]  Any of you know what they are.
[01:03:47.990 --> 01:03:48.320]  But, uh...
[01:03:49.250 --> 01:03:50.010]  They're basically...
[01:03:50.010 --> 01:03:51.410]  Things we didn't have to write.
[01:03:51.850 --> 01:03:53.050]  Because somebody else did.
[01:03:54.810 --> 01:03:55.190]  We...
[01:03:55.190 --> 01:03:56.490]  We have those issues, uh...
[01:03:56.490 --> 01:03:56.650]  Here.
[01:03:56.790 --> 01:03:57.470]  All for sale.
[01:03:57.570 --> 01:03:58.770]  Or you can come by and look at them.
[01:03:58.830 --> 01:04:00.270]  They're in the merchandise room on the back table.
[01:04:00.410 --> 01:04:00.990]  We've got, uh...
[01:04:00.990 --> 01:04:03.270]  Every issue since 1984 when it first started.
[01:04:03.430 --> 01:04:03.710]  And...
[01:04:03.710 --> 01:04:05.430]  You can see the evolution right there.
[01:04:05.710 --> 01:04:05.950]  From...
[01:04:05.950 --> 01:04:08.190]  Going from an eight and a half by eleven piece of, uh...
[01:04:08.190 --> 01:04:09.010]  Xeroxed paper.
[01:04:09.690 --> 01:04:10.090]  To...
[01:04:10.090 --> 01:04:11.330]  What we have now.
[01:04:11.490 --> 01:04:12.750]  We've got this, uh...
[01:04:12.750 --> 01:04:14.110]  Four color process, uh...
[01:04:14.110 --> 01:04:14.690]  Glossy color.
[01:04:14.950 --> 01:04:15.710]  Beautiful piece of...
[01:04:15.710 --> 01:04:18.430]  See, what you have to understand is this was never supposed to happen.
[01:04:18.710 --> 01:04:20.290]  We just were doing this as a hobby.
[01:04:20.730 --> 01:04:22.490]  And we just thought it was fun.
[01:04:22.670 --> 01:04:23.090]  And then...
[01:04:23.090 --> 01:04:25.950]  More people got involved and we had to make it better.
[01:04:26.690 --> 01:04:27.870]  And then we had to make it bigger.
[01:04:27.870 --> 01:04:29.070]  And then we had to...
[01:04:29.650 --> 01:04:31.770]  Just keep doing it as more of a serious thing.
[01:04:31.990 --> 01:04:32.430]  And...
[01:04:32.430 --> 01:04:33.110]  Look at us now.
[01:04:33.770 --> 01:04:34.310]  You know...
[01:04:34.310 --> 01:04:35.650]  We couldn't get out of this if we wanted to.
[01:04:36.650 --> 01:04:37.490]  Which we don't.
[01:04:37.630 --> 01:04:38.350]  We're happy with it.
[01:04:39.110 --> 01:04:40.130]  Speak for yourself.
[01:04:40.510 --> 01:04:40.830]  After, um...
[01:04:40.830 --> 01:04:43.210]  After our first year...
[01:04:43.210 --> 01:04:44.090]  Um...
[01:04:44.090 --> 01:04:44.810]  We...
[01:04:44.810 --> 01:04:45.890]  We set up an office.
[01:04:46.770 --> 01:04:47.210]  We...
[01:04:47.210 --> 01:04:49.430]  We actually built our own computer.
[01:04:50.770 --> 01:04:51.750]  From a kit.
[01:04:53.390 --> 01:04:53.710]  Yep.
[01:04:53.750 --> 01:04:54.330]  Used that to...
[01:04:54.950 --> 01:04:55.490]  Do our...
[01:04:55.490 --> 01:04:56.170]  Yeah.
[01:04:56.310 --> 01:04:58.590]  We built a computer and then it got struck by lightning.
[01:04:58.950 --> 01:05:00.390]  Which wasn't a good sign.
[01:05:00.610 --> 01:05:01.070]  And...
[01:05:01.070 --> 01:05:03.730]  It was an amazing stroke of lightning that...
[01:05:03.730 --> 01:05:05.270]  It burned out anything.
[01:05:05.950 --> 01:05:07.110]  Everything we had.
[01:05:08.690 --> 01:05:09.790]  It's a conspiracy.
[01:05:10.890 --> 01:05:12.390]  It killed the shortwave.
[01:05:12.610 --> 01:05:12.970]  The printer.
[01:05:13.450 --> 01:05:13.890]  Computer.
[01:05:14.990 --> 01:05:15.510]  So...
[01:05:15.510 --> 01:05:18.090]  Who knows where we'll be next time we have one of these things.
[01:05:18.330 --> 01:05:18.690]  Or...
[01:05:18.690 --> 01:05:19.250]  In ten years.
[01:05:19.470 --> 01:05:19.770]  Or whatever.
[01:05:20.430 --> 01:05:20.910]  But...
[01:05:21.650 --> 01:05:21.910]  Hopefully...
[01:05:22.690 --> 01:05:22.950]  We'll...
[01:05:22.950 --> 01:05:25.110]  We'll keep getting better in different ways.
[01:05:26.030 --> 01:05:26.550]  And...
[01:05:26.550 --> 01:05:28.550]  We're always open to suggestions from people.
[01:05:28.810 --> 01:05:30.230]  If they want to write for us.
[01:05:30.670 --> 01:05:31.030]  You know...
[01:05:31.030 --> 01:05:32.530]  Anybody can write for 2600.
[01:05:32.830 --> 01:05:34.590]  If you have knowledge about a certain...
[01:05:34.590 --> 01:05:36.710]  A certain element of hacking.
[01:05:36.850 --> 01:05:37.770]  A certain kind of a system.
[01:05:38.490 --> 01:05:38.910]  Just...
[01:05:38.910 --> 01:05:40.350]  Either mail it to us.
[01:05:40.550 --> 01:05:42.030]  Or send it to our email address.
[01:05:43.190 --> 01:05:43.610]  And...
[01:05:43.610 --> 01:05:44.970]  We'll get back to you on that.
[01:05:45.090 --> 01:05:46.450]  We definitely need a lot of...
[01:05:46.450 --> 01:05:47.610]  A lot of good writers.
[01:05:48.010 --> 01:05:48.940]  Writing about new technology.
[01:05:49.610 --> 01:05:50.510]  From the hacker perspective.
[01:05:52.270 --> 01:05:52.690]  So...
[01:05:52.690 --> 01:05:53.330]  Basically...
[01:05:53.330 --> 01:05:55.410]  I think we've said everything we can say here about the magazine.
[01:05:55.770 --> 01:05:56.190]  If...
[01:05:56.190 --> 01:05:57.090]  You have any other questions.
[01:05:57.170 --> 01:05:58.310]  Feel free to ask us individually.
[01:05:59.210 --> 01:06:00.810]  We're going to be...
[01:06:00.810 --> 01:06:02.430]  Showing videos in a little while.
[01:06:02.610 --> 01:06:04.630]  Just various hacker related things.
[01:06:05.350 --> 01:06:05.650]  You know...
[01:06:05.650 --> 01:06:05.990]  Media.
[01:06:06.550 --> 01:06:07.690]  Perceptions of us.
[01:06:08.290 --> 01:06:08.730]  And...
[01:06:08.730 --> 01:06:09.930]  Other fun stuff like that.
[01:06:10.170 --> 01:06:11.010]  Pam, you have something to say?
[01:06:11.210 --> 01:06:11.890]  I have announcements.
[01:06:12.250 --> 01:06:13.210]  Pam has announcements.
[01:06:13.490 --> 01:06:13.730]  So...
[01:06:13.730 --> 01:06:14.610]  Everybody pay attention.
[01:06:16.390 --> 01:06:20.290]  We want to thank you guys all for being here during our setup slash first day.
[01:06:20.950 --> 01:06:21.430]  Um...
[01:06:21.430 --> 01:06:23.690]  There are no rules posted yet.
[01:06:23.970 --> 01:06:25.190]  There sure as shit will be.
[01:06:25.830 --> 01:06:26.090]  Um...
[01:06:26.090 --> 01:06:28.090]  We've had our first minor theft.
[01:06:28.490 --> 01:06:34.090]  We'd like to warn everybody that the equipment in the network room that you bring in with you is at your own risk.
[01:06:34.090 --> 01:06:38.150]  Please take care of it or leave it with someone you trust.
[01:06:38.430 --> 01:06:38.530]  Okay?
[01:06:39.610 --> 01:06:40.610]  That's really important.
[01:06:42.630 --> 01:06:45.270]  Also, we have about a hundred IP addresses ready.
[01:06:46.010 --> 01:06:46.490]  Um...
[01:06:46.490 --> 01:06:51.430]  If you need one, see Ryan at the network... near the sound board in the network room.
[01:06:51.850 --> 01:06:52.130]  Pam?
[01:06:52.710 --> 01:06:52.910]  I want to point...
[01:06:52.910 --> 01:06:55.710]  But only if you need an IP, not if you just need a network login.
[01:06:55.950 --> 01:06:57.010]  That will be handled tomorrow.
[01:06:57.010 --> 01:06:58.010]  In Holland...
[01:06:58.550 --> 01:07:00.730]  I was just on the phone with Rob before this panel.
[01:07:01.090 --> 01:07:06.210]  He says there are a thousand IP addresses at the HIP conference that they've given out.
[01:07:07.030 --> 01:07:07.390]  So...
[01:07:07.390 --> 01:07:08.430]  They're ahead of us.
[01:07:09.290 --> 01:07:09.650]  We...
[01:07:09.650 --> 01:07:09.870]  We...
[01:07:09.870 --> 01:07:10.750]  We have to move faster.
[01:07:12.730 --> 01:07:13.550]  Do you have anything else?
[01:07:15.690 --> 01:07:16.310]  Do we have to...
[01:07:16.310 --> 01:07:17.890]  Yeah, it's already tomorrow there, so they're ahead of us.
[01:07:18.030 --> 01:07:19.550]  Are we really trying to keep up with them?
[01:07:20.290 --> 01:07:20.650]  Uh...
[01:07:20.650 --> 01:07:21.150]  We own them.
[01:07:21.390 --> 01:07:22.910]  Are they trying to keep up with us?
[01:07:22.990 --> 01:07:23.610]  I don't think so.
[01:07:23.610 --> 01:07:25.290]  What about the hacking thing?
[01:07:26.690 --> 01:07:28.010]  We hacked them, anyway.
[01:07:29.550 --> 01:07:30.030]  Uh...
[01:07:30.030 --> 01:07:31.710]  There's a party tonight, uh...
[01:07:31.710 --> 01:07:34.790]  an association of 2600, the Beyond HOPE crew, uh...
[01:07:34.790 --> 01:07:40.230]  at Coney Island High, which is up a little bit, St. Mark's Place, between 2nd and 3rd Avenue.
[01:07:41.030 --> 01:07:41.330]  Uh...
[01:07:41.330 --> 01:07:45.570]  There's gonna be some bands, including Meal Ticket, Punk Ska from California, uh...
[01:07:45.570 --> 01:07:48.330]  DJ Joker, quite possibly some other special guests.
[01:07:50.050 --> 01:07:50.530]  Uh...
[01:07:50.530 --> 01:07:53.110]  Not to mention 2 For 1 Drinks before 10pm.
[01:07:53.110 --> 01:07:55.810]  Well, it's after 10pm now, but specials after that.
[01:07:56.750 --> 01:07:57.190]  Um...
[01:07:57.190 --> 01:07:59.270]  If you mention Beyond HOPE, you get in for free.
[01:07:59.610 --> 01:07:59.970]  So...
[01:07:59.970 --> 01:08:01.710]  That's just one of the many things going on.
[01:08:03.290 --> 01:08:03.730]  Um...
[01:08:03.730 --> 01:08:06.590]  If you wanna go to a really cool theater two blocks over, you'll see...
[01:08:06.590 --> 01:08:10.310]  Yeah, if you're over 70, you probably won't have a very good time.
[01:08:10.330 --> 01:08:11.170]  You have to draw the line someplace.
[01:08:12.010 --> 01:08:13.570]  I think it's 18...
[01:08:13.570 --> 01:08:16.570]  18 for non-drinkers, 21 for drinkers, I don't know.
[01:08:16.670 --> 01:08:17.210]  Whatever the hell.
[01:08:18.130 --> 01:08:18.570]  Just...
[01:08:18.570 --> 01:08:20.770]  They don't usually ask too many questions.
[01:08:20.770 --> 01:08:22.590]  The details are on our website.
[01:08:22.750 --> 01:08:23.250]  There's a cool theater two blocks over.
[01:08:23.350 --> 01:08:25.250]  If you wanna see some films, just walk over there.
[01:08:25.610 --> 01:08:26.790]  Plenty of things to do in the neighborhood.
[01:08:27.030 --> 01:08:28.410]  We'll be showing videos in a little while.
[01:08:28.610 --> 01:08:29.270]  Any other announcements?
[01:08:29.550 --> 01:08:31.950]  The age details are on the HOPENet website.
[01:08:32.210 --> 01:08:33.850]  Check it out in the network room before you go.
[01:08:34.310 --> 01:08:35.450]  Okay, thanks everybody.
[01:08:47.080 --> 01:08:47.840]  Uh...
[01:08:47.840 --> 01:08:48.680]  Kick that guy out.
[01:08:54.000 --> 01:08:55.560]  Lift ya sack.
[01:08:59.210 --> 01:09:00.530]  My name's Austin.
[01:09:00.690 --> 01:09:01.250]  I work on the wire.
[01:09:01.690 --> 01:09:02.170]  Oh, great.
[01:11:16.270 --> 01:11:20.110]  Upcoming videos are, um...
[01:11:20.110 --> 01:11:27.430]  Bluff Video Documentary, BBC Horizon, Inside the Internet, and Unauthorized Access.
[01:11:28.470 --> 01:11:29.090]  Courtesy of Space Rogue.
[01:11:29.090 --> 01:11:29.330]  What's that?
[01:11:29.550 --> 01:11:30.690]  Courtesy of Space Rogue.
[01:11:30.990 --> 01:11:32.290]  Courtesy of Space Rogue. 
[01:11:32.290 --> 01:11:33.510]  Space Rogue.
[01:11:33.870 --> 01:11:34.810]  Thank you.
[01:11:37.250 --> 01:11:37.870]  Uh...
[01:11:37.870 --> 01:11:38.690]  Ten minutes from now.