[00:00.790 --> 00:02.530]  It's been a long day.
[00:03.170 --> 00:04.730]  It's been a long two days.
[00:05.970 --> 00:06.370]  Yeah.
[00:06.870 --> 00:12.530]  I didn't think I was going to... I didn't think I'd be able to get through this talk because there's so much stuff and I took a lot of stuff out.
[00:13.170 --> 00:18.970]  But that was like if I'd given the talk at 8 o'clock in the morning, but now it's probably finished really fast.
[00:19.830 --> 00:21.430]  Aphantasia, a personal reflection.
[00:22.070 --> 00:24.810]  Disclaimer, first off, this is all speculative.
[00:25.190 --> 00:26.590]  Just my opinion about me.
[00:26.830 --> 00:28.310]  So I can't be wrong, right?
[00:28.430 --> 00:30.230]  So it's just all about me.
[00:31.770 --> 00:34.370]  There's a lot of bad speculation out there on the web.
[00:34.550 --> 00:40.470]  You know, the dark way you go out there and it's like, okay, my talk is just about me and my personal opinion about myself.
[00:41.210 --> 00:47.250]  And I started looking at it on the web and it's like all these people said they had aphantasia and is saying weird stuff.
[00:47.410 --> 00:49.230]  And it's like, no, I don't buy that at all.
[00:49.830 --> 00:51.890]  So I didn't go, but it's just me.
[00:52.030 --> 01:00.110]  And then it's like, I also did not get any of the AIs to research their deep research and come back with all this medical stuff and all that kind of stuff.
[01:00.730 --> 01:01.770]  No, I didn't do that.
[01:01.990 --> 01:02.890]  You know, I haven't done that.
[01:02.970 --> 01:06.910]  So I don't know what kind of medical research or research or anything on this is.
[01:08.130 --> 01:09.290]  Session synopsis.
[01:10.070 --> 01:11.870]  Yeah, a little background, a little background.
[01:11.930 --> 01:16.110]  So it's like, I always wanted to like write my history because I'm kind of old now.
[01:16.250 --> 01:16.610]  I'm 69.
[01:16.610 --> 01:21.390]  And about my history is with hacking and all this kind of stuff.
[01:21.750 --> 01:22.830]  But I can't write.
[01:23.010 --> 01:23.770]  I'm a terrible writer.
[01:23.990 --> 01:25.590]  It's like, so I couldn't publish it for 20th Sunday.
[01:25.710 --> 01:26.090]  It's terrible.
[01:26.370 --> 01:28.990]  And then all this AI came out.
[01:29.110 --> 01:29.730]  I said, great.
[01:29.950 --> 01:33.270]  So I can take that and write my biography and everything.
[01:33.570 --> 01:35.610]  And it's, you know, it's terrible.
[01:35.850 --> 01:37.170]  Just, it was absolutely terrible.
[01:37.770 --> 01:43.370]  So then it was like, so maybe I could come up with something and present at HOPE, which I've never been to before.
[01:43.910 --> 01:46.150]  And but it's like two years, every two years.
[01:46.510 --> 01:47.570]  I can't wait that long.
[01:47.970 --> 01:49.550]  And then they change it to every year.
[01:49.670 --> 01:51.290]  I go, okay, maybe I can do it this year.
[01:51.410 --> 01:52.150]  Maybe that's a sign.
[01:52.150 --> 01:54.710]  And so, but I didn't know what to talk about.
[01:54.870 --> 01:57.150]  And it's like, hmm, maybe a Fantasia.
[01:57.310 --> 01:59.490]  But I didn't think a Fantasia is really a hacker topic.
[01:59.970 --> 02:09.090]  So I asked a couple of the AIs, like Grok and ChatGPT, if that would be a good topic to talk about in their patronizing way.
[02:09.290 --> 02:10.870]  They both said, yeah, that's great.
[02:11.010 --> 02:11.790]  That's absolutely great.
[02:12.110 --> 02:13.150]  I go, huh.
[02:13.610 --> 02:14.670]  I'm so sure about that.
[02:14.930 --> 02:20.490]  And then I tell them, it's like, okay, if it's great, write me up a letter to apply and write me up a synopsis.
[02:20.630 --> 02:21.630]  And that's what this is.
[02:22.650 --> 02:23.990]  So this is not me.
[02:24.210 --> 02:25.670]  You know, I didn't, I didn't write this.
[02:25.890 --> 02:29.550]  You can tell by the hyphens in here.
[02:29.670 --> 02:30.730]  I don't write hyphens.
[02:30.890 --> 02:32.230]  There are a lot of hyphens in there.
[02:32.330 --> 02:33.050]  That's not me.
[02:33.190 --> 02:34.610]  Except some of the stuff at the bottom.
[02:34.830 --> 02:36.370]  This is kind of my words down here.
[02:36.550 --> 02:38.330]  The rest of this is not.
[02:38.570 --> 02:41.770]  I mean, I wouldn't have put all that stuff in there, but they said that.
[02:42.430 --> 02:47.270]  And I wanted to add this stuff to it because I'm going to relate a Fantasia to AI.
[02:47.270 --> 02:52.250]  Because a lot has happened in the AI world in the last seven to ten days.
[02:53.050 --> 02:54.190]  And I've got to vent.
[02:54.410 --> 02:56.910]  I mean, I come here, I've got to watch the time because I've got to vent.
[02:57.230 --> 03:02.130]  So basically, instead of talking just about me and a Fantasia, I'm splitting this into two parts.
[03:02.850 --> 03:06.430]  Part one is going to be my journey with a Fantasia, like I talked about.
[03:06.430 --> 03:12.590]  And the second one is going to be part two is going to be a Fantasia hacking and AI with some venting in there.
[03:12.970 --> 03:15.710]  So I've got to keep watching the time.
[03:16.330 --> 03:17.170]  I've got to hit...
[03:17.890 --> 03:20.050]  Finish part one in 25 minutes, probably will.
[03:20.190 --> 03:22.650]  Part one, my journey with a Fantasia.
[03:23.370 --> 03:26.090]  So this is what it wrote in this presentation, Earl.
[03:26.170 --> 03:27.070]  It just seems kind of weird.
[03:27.070 --> 03:38.710]  I will say that when I ran this by the AIs, they both told me that for my name on the program, I should not say Dr. Earl Brown.
[03:39.250 --> 03:46.330]  I thought, well, I don't know, because at the time I thought I was going to talk about the medical aspects of, you know, a Fantasia and all that kind of stuff, which I'm not.
[03:46.670 --> 03:50.610]  And so I put it in there, but they told me not to, but I did it anyway.
[03:50.610 --> 03:52.290]  And now I kind of regret that.
[03:52.290 --> 03:58.230]  But I've been, I am a pathologist and I've been a teacher for, yeah, actually 38 years.
[03:59.110 --> 04:00.270]  Who am I?
[04:00.930 --> 04:05.510]  This is me, professor of pathology, Quillen College of Medicine and ETSU.
[04:05.630 --> 04:07.990]  That's ETSU right there, aerial view.
[04:08.330 --> 04:09.010]  That's ETSU.
[04:09.270 --> 04:10.730]  That's John City is right there.
[04:10.870 --> 04:13.970]  It's about 90 miles north, northeast of Knoxville.
[04:15.590 --> 04:16.470]  Oh, that's me.
[04:16.650 --> 04:18.430]  This is not AI generated.
[04:18.690 --> 04:19.970]  This is not AI generated.
[04:19.970 --> 04:21.330]  This was done by a student of mine.
[04:21.330 --> 04:22.750]  About 15 years ago.
[04:23.150 --> 04:24.510]  I was a lot younger back then.
[04:24.630 --> 04:25.910]  Okay, so about 15 years ago.
[04:26.090 --> 04:27.950]  And that's me teaching in the auditorium.
[04:28.090 --> 04:30.950]  And this is actually a blood smear.
[04:31.110 --> 04:32.410]  Actually, it's a bone marrow smear.
[04:32.830 --> 04:33.730]  So I'm an MD.
[04:33.870 --> 04:34.550]  I'm a pathologist.
[04:34.710 --> 04:36.830]  And I am a hematopathologist.
[04:37.550 --> 04:38.530]  Oh, more about me.
[04:38.530 --> 04:39.450]  That's not enough about me.
[04:40.670 --> 04:43.470]  I grew up, well, part of in Lake Charles, Louisiana.
[04:43.770 --> 04:48.830]  I went to college there at McNeese State University in 73 to 77.
[04:49.810 --> 04:51.150]  That's a long time ago.
[04:51.410 --> 04:55.270]  The reason I say that is because I don't really have any regrets.
[04:55.750 --> 05:01.110]  The only regret I have, maybe, is... Oh, by the way, this is a great book.
[05:01.250 --> 05:02.810]  Hackers, Heroes, this is a great book.
[05:03.050 --> 05:05.070]  Talked about hacking in the early years and stuff like that.
[05:05.270 --> 05:07.990]  This discusses early MIT artificial intelligence.
[05:08.850 --> 05:13.690]  If I... I wish that I could have gone to MIT back in the 70s.
[05:13.690 --> 05:14.750]  Wow, that would have been something.
[05:14.930 --> 05:15.610]  That would have been something.
[05:15.750 --> 05:18.170]  All the hacking started, really started coming to fruition.
[05:18.690 --> 05:21.930]  But my circumstance, that would never have happened.
[05:22.290 --> 05:25.950]  I didn't have the means to even contemplate that.
[05:26.090 --> 05:27.170]  But that would have been a kind of cool thing.
[05:27.670 --> 05:29.790]  Said I ended up in medicine, L.C.
[05:29.830 --> 05:30.490]  School of Shreveport.
[05:30.890 --> 05:32.070]  Medicine in Shreveport.
[05:32.750 --> 05:33.610]  I was there.
[05:33.990 --> 05:36.690]  Medical School of 77 to 81, residency to 85.
[05:37.090 --> 05:39.690]  And I stayed there a couple of years at the VA to 87.
[05:40.030 --> 05:50.890]  The reason I say that's important, the reason I mention that, is because about that time, in my own mind, there's an overlap, but it's not really an overlap, with id, id software, you know.
[05:51.010 --> 05:53.770]  So Doomguy, this is John Romero, John Carmack.
[05:54.250 --> 05:57.610]  Id got its start, sort of, in Shreveport.
[05:57.950 --> 06:02.850]  Supposedly in a carport of a house in Shreveport, but it really didn't happen that way.
[06:02.990 --> 06:04.590]  But it was close, it was close.
[06:04.810 --> 06:05.830]  This actually is a good book.
[06:06.590 --> 06:07.450]  It's a good book.
[06:07.730 --> 06:10.690]  So, 4.0, it actually drew this timeline.
[06:10.690 --> 06:13.430]  It was before the new changes, when it got all bad.
[06:13.770 --> 06:14.790]  The last week.
[06:15.190 --> 06:15.810]  It did this thing.
[06:15.930 --> 06:16.550]  This, yeah, user.
[06:16.770 --> 06:17.310]  I'm the user.
[06:17.770 --> 06:18.910]  I'm at Shreveport there.
[06:19.270 --> 06:22.810]  And John Romero actually came a couple of years earlier, before he did software.
[06:23.110 --> 06:25.150]  But it's not, not quite.
[06:25.290 --> 06:26.970]  But in my mind, I like to think, wow.
[06:27.470 --> 06:29.030]  If things would have just been a little bit different.
[06:30.190 --> 06:31.150]  My interests.
[06:31.650 --> 06:31.750]  Huh.
[06:32.210 --> 06:33.170]  Because this is about me.
[06:33.550 --> 06:34.030]  Books.
[06:34.290 --> 06:36.030]  I started reading a lot of books lately.
[06:36.470 --> 06:37.210]  Just because.
[06:37.830 --> 06:39.210]  This is all you need to know about me.
[06:39.450 --> 06:41.510]  I read this over the summer.
[06:42.010 --> 06:43.390]  4,000 pages.
[06:43.610 --> 06:43.910]  My goodness.
[06:44.250 --> 06:45.490]  Best series ever.
[06:45.650 --> 06:46.590]  Dungeon Crawler Carl.
[06:47.330 --> 06:48.690]  Yeah, it's really good.
[06:48.990 --> 06:49.530]  It's really good.
[06:49.710 --> 06:51.950]  I thought it was going to end on book seven.
[06:51.950 --> 06:54.670]  But now, now I've got to wait for book eight.
[06:54.670 --> 06:55.810]  And I've got to reread seven.
[06:55.970 --> 06:57.530]  Because a lot of things that's happening in that book.
[06:58.070 --> 06:59.070]  Best book ever.
[06:59.250 --> 07:00.370]  So I read this over the summer.
[07:00.650 --> 07:01.850]  And I thought, hmm.
[07:02.730 --> 07:04.750]  You know, let's talk about, you know, Grok.
[07:04.850 --> 07:05.590]  And all this kind of stuff.
[07:06.110 --> 07:07.170]  Stranger in a strange land.
[07:07.310 --> 07:08.890]  Because Elon's invented Grok.
[07:09.070 --> 07:10.870]  And then he named, you know, Valentine.
[07:11.030 --> 07:13.350]  His little, his avatar thing.
[07:13.530 --> 07:15.610]  And I thought, I'm going to reread that book.
[07:15.750 --> 07:17.190]  Because it came out in 1961.
[07:17.930 --> 07:19.590]  I think I read it in late sixties.
[07:19.670 --> 07:20.770]  And I kind of remember.
[07:20.970 --> 07:23.010]  I thought Grok, the term was cool.
[07:23.010 --> 07:25.350]  And I thought the book was good.
[07:25.570 --> 07:27.150]  So I reread it.
[07:27.250 --> 07:29.050]  Or tried to reread it a couple weeks ago.
[07:29.470 --> 07:30.130]  Oh my God.
[07:30.670 --> 07:31.750]  Worst sci-fi ever.
[07:32.050 --> 07:33.610]  That book is so bad.
[07:33.830 --> 07:34.410]  I don't know.
[07:34.510 --> 07:35.110]  So bad.
[07:35.830 --> 07:37.110]  I couldn't get through it.
[07:37.170 --> 07:37.590]  Oh my God.
[07:37.670 --> 07:38.650]  It did not age well.
[07:39.070 --> 07:40.870]  I don't know what the hell Elon was thinking.
[07:41.170 --> 07:41.310]  Anyway.
[07:41.770 --> 07:43.170]  Oh, the term looks bad.
[07:43.490 --> 07:44.870]  The book is bad.
[07:45.050 --> 07:45.530]  It's...
[07:45.530 --> 07:46.090]  Oh my God.
[07:46.690 --> 07:47.490]  I don't know.
[07:48.030 --> 07:49.390]  And I thought it was good.
[07:49.510 --> 07:51.410]  Because like Stranger in a Strange Land.
[07:51.410 --> 07:53.110]  It's kind of like I felt and stuff.
[07:53.510 --> 07:56.350]  But the book's got nothing to do with Stranger in a Strange Land.
[07:56.790 --> 07:57.510]  He wasn't.
[07:57.630 --> 07:58.350]  Michael, the guy.
[07:58.470 --> 07:58.790]  Valentine.
[07:59.350 --> 08:01.350]  He wasn't a stranger in a strange land.
[08:01.670 --> 08:02.930]  That was not supposed to be the title.
[08:03.030 --> 08:04.270]  It's got nothing to do with it anyway.
[08:04.530 --> 08:05.910]  I do like video games.
[08:06.290 --> 08:08.410]  Best video game ever is Baba is You.
[08:09.050 --> 08:09.930]  See where I played it?
[08:10.730 --> 08:12.190]  Best video game ever.
[08:12.650 --> 08:13.210]  Check it out.
[08:13.330 --> 08:17.230]  If you don't remember anything from this talk, check out Baba is You.
[08:17.230 --> 08:18.630]  And I'm going to talk about it in a little bit.
[08:19.310 --> 08:21.270]  My journey with Aphantasia.
[08:21.370 --> 08:22.110]  That's what I'm talking about.
[08:22.530 --> 08:23.950]  What is Aphantasia?
[08:24.110 --> 08:27.110]  Well, stupid AI wrote it in the synopsis.
[08:27.250 --> 08:28.710]  So I took away my thing.
[08:28.910 --> 08:29.030]  Yeah.
[08:30.150 --> 08:30.590]  Aphantasia.
[08:30.750 --> 08:32.630]  The inability to form minimal images is a little number.
[08:32.750 --> 08:33.390]  Blah, blah, blah, blah.
[08:33.730 --> 08:36.170]  One to four, say about 2% of the population.
[08:36.890 --> 08:37.730]  Who knew?
[08:38.490 --> 08:42.710]  Do I have Aphantasia to ask yourself if you knew it or something like that?
[08:43.510 --> 08:47.370]  Well, the classic thing is close your eyes and picture an apple.
[08:47.850 --> 08:51.290]  And then have somebody tell them that and have them describe the apple.
[08:53.890 --> 08:56.430]  And I don't... that's one of the tests.
[08:56.570 --> 08:58.270]  I really don't do this test anymore.
[08:58.270 --> 08:58.990]  I'm just telling you.
[08:59.270 --> 09:03.690]  Because when I found out of Aphantasia, I told this test to several people.
[09:04.030 --> 09:06.510]  And then they would start describing the apple.
[09:06.750 --> 09:08.370]  And then I say, I can't see anything.
[09:08.630 --> 09:10.790]  And they go, well, I can't see anything either.
[09:10.790 --> 09:13.350]  And then we get in arguments and all kinds of stuff.
[09:13.530 --> 09:13.690]  You know?
[09:14.610 --> 09:15.330]  I'm here.
[09:15.330 --> 09:15.950]  I'm here.
[09:16.170 --> 09:18.110]  So, I don't know what's going on here.
[09:18.430 --> 09:20.550]  I just... I have no concept.
[09:20.550 --> 09:22.270]  I thought I was totally normal.
[09:22.850 --> 09:23.570]  I didn't...
[09:23.570 --> 09:27.230]  I thought when people said they see images in their head, I thought it was metaphorical.
[09:27.790 --> 09:30.690]  And then a couple of years ago, I found out, like, no, that's a real thing.
[09:30.910 --> 09:32.030]  And it's like, weird.
[09:32.150 --> 09:32.850]  That's really weird.
[09:33.470 --> 09:34.570]  It's so weird.
[09:35.910 --> 09:40.230]  People, I can't even imagine what that's like, to close your eyes and see images.
[09:40.630 --> 09:41.210]  I can't...
[09:41.210 --> 09:41.930]  It's...
[09:41.930 --> 09:42.510]  I can't...
[09:42.510 --> 09:43.470]  I can't even imagine it.
[09:43.870 --> 09:44.810]  Yeah, this is what I see.
[09:44.910 --> 09:45.470]  That's what I see.
[09:45.570 --> 09:46.350]  I close my eyes.
[09:47.030 --> 09:47.910]  That's what I see.
[09:48.090 --> 09:49.130]  I can't do anything differently.
[09:49.710 --> 09:51.770]  Yeah, problems talking about Aphantasia.
[09:52.030 --> 09:53.270]  They get really mad.
[09:53.430 --> 09:54.710]  Because I say, I can't see anything.
[09:54.870 --> 09:56.190]  They say, well, I don't really see anything.
[09:56.710 --> 10:00.030]  And then I say, okay, picture a beach scene.
[10:00.250 --> 10:01.430]  They have to tell me they couldn't see it.
[10:01.550 --> 10:02.710]  And I say, picture a beach scene.
[10:02.770 --> 10:04.230]  And they start describing the beach scene.
[10:04.630 --> 10:07.530]  And then I say, picture a boat on the water.
[10:07.770 --> 10:08.530]  And they go, yeah.
[10:08.690 --> 10:09.330]  I say, can you see it?
[10:09.410 --> 10:09.830]  They say, yeah.
[10:10.150 --> 10:11.850]  I say, make the boat move.
[10:12.150 --> 10:12.970]  And can you see that?
[10:13.030 --> 10:13.390]  They go, yeah.
[10:13.490 --> 10:14.110]  And I say, whoa.
[10:14.870 --> 10:16.790]  So it's like, they don't have Aphantasia.
[10:17.190 --> 10:23.790]  I think for somebody to really have Aphantasia that's never heard of it, when you first describe it to them, they're going to freak out.
[10:24.130 --> 10:24.750]  That's what happened to me.
[10:24.750 --> 10:25.590]  It's like, wait, what?
[10:25.930 --> 10:28.590]  And it's just totally foreign to you.
[10:28.710 --> 10:31.770]  So if they don't have that reaction, probably don't have aphantasia.
[10:32.170 --> 10:41.650]  That being said, if I was really going to look for aphantasia, I'd make some kind of form, you know, a bunch of different questions, not just one and kind of have things plus or minus in there.
[10:41.750 --> 10:42.590]  But I'm not going to do that.
[10:43.170 --> 10:43.530]  Yeah.
[10:43.730 --> 10:44.510]  Moving images.
[10:44.690 --> 10:45.090]  Who knew?
[10:45.790 --> 10:47.150]  I can't even imagine that.
[10:47.270 --> 10:47.650]  Oh, my God.
[10:48.850 --> 10:56.090]  First time when I found out I had aphantasia, first thing that I thought of, I mean, right off the bat was this Cartman clip.
[10:56.650 --> 10:58.110]  Cartman doesn't have aphantasia.
[10:58.230 --> 11:00.030]  That's the one of the clips I was going to show if I have time.
[11:00.790 --> 11:02.230]  It's like, I thought of that right away.
[11:02.430 --> 11:09.050]  So then I asked, I asked 4.0, GPT 4.0, if Cartman has aphantasia.
[11:09.390 --> 11:12.970]  And it searched, you know, like 90 websites in two seconds.
[11:12.970 --> 11:14.950]  And it came back and said, no, he doesn't have.
[11:15.050 --> 11:16.250]  There's no evidence and all that kind of stuff.
[11:16.490 --> 11:18.190]  I asked Grok 3 at the time.
[11:18.490 --> 11:20.670]  Same thing, you know, 100 websites in two seconds.
[11:20.830 --> 11:21.150]  I said, no.
[11:21.150 --> 11:24.190]  I go, well, what about the Helen Keller episode?
[11:24.330 --> 11:25.250]  I told him the episode.
[11:25.970 --> 11:31.750]  And Grok 3 said, well, it does kind of maybe relate to it, but no, we can't be sure.
[11:32.150 --> 11:35.530]  And then I asked 4.0 and it said, yeah, that proves he doesn't have aphantasia.
[11:35.910 --> 11:46.090]  So it's like, to me, that's kind of, I kind of just meta illustrates the whole point of the talk and that when I get to the end of that AI, like I knew right away.
[11:46.450 --> 11:51.190]  I mean, when I found out about aphantasia, my first thought was Cartman, because I knew about it and stuff like that.
[11:51.290 --> 11:52.270]  And I related it to it.
[11:52.270 --> 11:53.790]  I knew instantly like that.
[11:54.030 --> 11:59.090]  We asked this to an AI and they can search the web block and stuff and they couldn't find it.
[11:59.850 --> 12:05.330]  I guess if I told them to look at every episode, maybe they come back in 12 hours and tell me yes or something.
[12:05.470 --> 12:05.750]  I don't know.
[12:06.870 --> 12:08.690]  Question for A does, yeah, that's what I said.
[12:09.670 --> 12:10.210]  Question here.
[12:10.290 --> 12:11.430]  So I would make a question here.
[12:11.590 --> 12:12.250]  Okay, that's fine.
[12:12.970 --> 12:15.410]  When did I first learn about aphantasia?
[12:15.610 --> 12:18.630]  It seems like it was on yesterday, but it was a couple of years now.
[12:19.310 --> 12:22.070]  It was during, it was about the time of the World Chess Championship of 2018.
[12:23.350 --> 12:26.390]  Because about 2018, I found out that there was this thing called Twitch.
[12:26.870 --> 12:27.810]  Wow, Twitch.
[12:28.110 --> 12:31.790]  And they were streaming live all the World Chess Championship.
[12:32.030 --> 12:32.910]  I'm going, oh my God.
[12:33.490 --> 12:40.670]  The last time I saw that was back in the Fisher-Sabaski thing, where it was only sort of live on PBS, you know.
[12:40.670 --> 12:43.670]  But I'm like, oh my God, this is really, this is fascinating.
[12:43.690 --> 12:45.310]  So I started watching all that stuff.
[12:45.510 --> 12:53.090]  Then I noticed, this is a Karu Nakamura, that they'd always look into the, away from the board and do all this thinking.
[12:53.310 --> 12:55.350]  And I'm going, what the heck is that?
[12:56.050 --> 12:57.890]  I didn't know about aphantasia yet.
[12:58.010 --> 12:58.970]  I'm going, what is that?
[12:58.970 --> 12:59.930]  I don't understand what they're doing.
[13:00.230 --> 13:09.770]  And then on chess.com, they talked about something where a blindfold chess and you got a picture of the board in your head and be able to move pieces around.
[13:09.770 --> 13:11.590]  And I'm going, I can't do that.
[13:11.710 --> 13:12.550]  I don't know what they're talking about.
[13:12.670 --> 13:13.930]  I absolutely don't know what they're talking about.
[13:14.190 --> 13:17.670]  And that was about the time that I found out about aphantasia.
[13:17.670 --> 13:19.230]  And I go, well, that's not fair.
[13:19.590 --> 13:21.310]  I can't, I can't see the board at all.
[13:22.110 --> 13:24.450]  And soon after that, Queen's Gambit came out.
[13:24.630 --> 13:30.890]  Well, she could actually apparently see the chess board, not in her mind's eye, but in the real space.
[13:31.330 --> 13:33.070]  Apparently there's a name for that, right?
[13:33.550 --> 13:37.070]  It's called Prose Fantasia, where you can see it outside.
[13:37.450 --> 13:38.270]  That's crazy.
[13:38.650 --> 13:41.770]  So this is aphantasia in the blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, hyper.
[13:41.910 --> 13:42.610]  You can see it really real.
[13:42.730 --> 13:43.510]  This is me over here.
[13:43.690 --> 13:45.490]  But apparently some people nodding their heads.
[13:45.570 --> 13:47.490]  They can see it out outside of the thing.
[13:48.110 --> 13:50.010]  That being said, I'm not going to talk about any of that.
[13:50.150 --> 13:54.410]  I'm not going to talk about not being able to hear and hear voices and sounds in your head.
[13:54.410 --> 13:55.670]  I'm just talking about me.
[13:56.490 --> 13:57.130]  It's aphantasia.
[13:57.930 --> 13:58.330]  Okay.
[13:58.590 --> 13:58.890]  I will.
[13:59.050 --> 14:00.750]  This is what ChatGPT's did or something like.
[14:01.150 --> 14:01.950]  Both good and bad.
[14:02.070 --> 14:03.350]  I never experienced chess, piano.
[14:03.770 --> 14:05.150]  Drawing, reading, memory and learning.
[14:05.310 --> 14:05.610]  Blah, blah, blah.
[14:05.750 --> 14:07.590]  Then I got to talk about Hacker.
[14:07.810 --> 14:09.870]  I got to vent about AI if we have time.
[14:10.550 --> 14:11.850]  The good and the bad with aphantasia.
[14:11.950 --> 14:12.510]  The bad.
[14:13.190 --> 14:13.590]  Chess.
[14:13.910 --> 14:14.190]  Yeah.
[14:14.470 --> 14:15.430]  So what's up with that chess?
[14:15.930 --> 14:18.510]  Do chess players rely on mental imagery?
[14:18.990 --> 14:23.910]  I don't know anybody that really plays chess around who I am or plays it good enough to ask them.
[14:24.010 --> 14:25.790]  I mean, if somebody's here, that's really good.
[14:25.790 --> 14:26.850]  And you can tell me.
[14:26.990 --> 14:28.090]  I would like to know.
[14:28.690 --> 14:29.730]  They have to be.
[14:29.830 --> 14:31.170]  I mean, they're looking away and stuff like that.
[14:31.610 --> 14:32.830]  But I don't get it.
[14:32.890 --> 14:33.410]  So I asked.
[14:33.510 --> 14:33.630]  Yeah.
[14:35.530 --> 14:38.590]  So none of the AIs helped me put together this talk.
[14:38.830 --> 14:39.850]  This is all me.
[14:40.130 --> 14:40.830]  It's all me.
[14:40.910 --> 14:41.550]  My thing right here.
[14:41.730 --> 14:45.070]  It's every once in a while, I ask them something and I'll cite it down here.
[14:45.190 --> 14:46.490]  So I asked 4O about it.
[14:46.630 --> 14:48.430]  And yeah, you can trust everything to say, right?
[14:49.090 --> 14:53.110]  So it says most chess player with visual rely on.
[14:53.310 --> 14:53.490]  Yeah.
[14:53.490 --> 14:53.570]  Yeah.
[14:53.870 --> 14:56.590]  So 4O said, yeah, most players do that.
[14:56.710 --> 14:57.190]  And I go, okay.
[14:57.610 --> 14:58.610]  I don't get it.
[14:58.730 --> 15:02.590]  But then it says like, people with A-Fantasia can't do it.
[15:03.390 --> 15:04.470]  Pattern based knowledge.
[15:04.710 --> 15:08.750]  So that kind of sucked because I'm getting to the retirement age.
[15:08.750 --> 15:12.990]  And I thought, well, I can retire and start spending a lot of time.
[15:13.110 --> 15:13.990]  I got a lot of time to kill.
[15:14.270 --> 15:16.030]  I can play a lot of chess and online chess.
[15:16.190 --> 15:16.430]  That would be great.
[15:16.670 --> 15:18.290]  Then I found out about this A-Fantasia thing.
[15:18.350 --> 15:19.270]  And I said, it's not fair.
[15:19.770 --> 15:20.470]  It's not fair.
[15:20.470 --> 15:23.990]  I'm not going to spend all my time trying to do this when people can see the board and I can't.
[15:24.290 --> 15:24.950]  So I was like, don't.
[15:25.450 --> 15:29.950]  Anyway, maybe they should do like different categories for the chess tournaments.
[15:30.730 --> 15:32.590]  A-Fantasia people and everybody else.
[15:33.270 --> 15:35.290]  But then how you know that people have A-Fantasia.
[15:35.550 --> 15:36.890]  I do like to play a piano.
[15:37.090 --> 15:38.410]  I'm kind of, I'm not good at it.
[15:38.510 --> 15:40.050]  But I do like to play at the piano.
[15:41.330 --> 15:45.130]  And especially nowadays where you can get any kind of sheet music on any song you want, stuff like that.
[15:46.010 --> 15:49.950]  But my question is, do pianists, I play about an hour a day or something.
[15:50.130 --> 15:51.790]  Do pianists rely on mental imagery?
[15:52.470 --> 15:53.330]  I don't know.
[15:53.370 --> 15:56.310]  Because it's like, I'm trying to memorize all these pieces.
[15:56.630 --> 15:58.850]  And a long time ago, it was muscle memory.
[15:59.350 --> 16:00.410]  And that's not good.
[16:00.410 --> 16:04.130]  Because you rely on muscle memory, you can screw up really bad.
[16:04.570 --> 16:06.590]  I can touch type really fast.
[16:06.730 --> 16:08.850]  But I have no idea what the keyboard looks like.
[16:08.890 --> 16:09.850]  I don't know if that's normal or anything.
[16:10.070 --> 16:12.950]  If you ask me where a certain character is on the keyboard, I have no idea.
[16:13.470 --> 16:14.250]  Not a clue.
[16:14.430 --> 16:14.910]  Not a clue.
[16:15.270 --> 16:16.410]  But I just muscle memory.
[16:16.670 --> 16:19.010]  So it's like, you can't do muscle memory.
[16:19.010 --> 16:21.850]  I'm just guessing because I am not a talented musician.
[16:22.110 --> 16:23.690]  But you can't do muscle memory.
[16:23.930 --> 16:28.230]  So do these people that are really good, do they memorize the score?
[16:28.230 --> 16:31.390]  Do they see the keyboard in front of them?
[16:31.930 --> 16:32.810]  I don't know.
[16:32.950 --> 16:33.550]  So I asked, yes.
[16:33.750 --> 16:34.810]  Oh, this is Google AI.
[16:35.310 --> 16:37.410]  I said, yeah.
[16:37.690 --> 16:42.070]  So they do visualize the score and the keyboard.
[16:42.450 --> 16:43.610]  I'm going, huh.
[16:43.970 --> 16:45.950]  That would make things a lot easier.
[16:46.310 --> 16:50.830]  Instead, I got to memorize the key patterns and stuff.
[16:50.830 --> 16:55.530]  And it's like, well, that's a lot harder than if I could see the darn keyboard in my memory.
[16:56.050 --> 16:56.330]  Mm-mm.
[16:57.230 --> 16:59.190]  So this is 4-0.
[16:59.410 --> 17:01.650]  So 4-0 agreed with them.
[17:01.750 --> 17:02.210]  So like that.
[17:02.610 --> 17:05.450]  And then it said for us with a Fantasia.
[17:05.970 --> 17:06.230]  Yeah.
[17:06.930 --> 17:07.830]  We're having problems.
[17:08.630 --> 17:09.190]  That's not fair.
[17:09.930 --> 17:10.970]  What about drawing?
[17:12.990 --> 17:15.230]  Do artists rely on mental imagery?
[17:15.530 --> 17:15.850]  Okay.
[17:15.890 --> 17:17.730]  I'm not a good drawer at all.
[17:18.050 --> 17:18.310]  Not at all.
[17:19.570 --> 17:22.650]  My daughter from my first wife, she's like really good.
[17:22.790 --> 17:23.490]  She's like really good.
[17:23.690 --> 17:24.670]  Didn't get it from me.
[17:24.830 --> 17:26.970]  But do artists rely on mental imagery?
[17:27.330 --> 17:28.970]  So I asked, this is 4-0.
[17:29.370 --> 17:31.090]  So yeah, they typically do.
[17:31.310 --> 17:34.590]  I go, well, that would make things a lot easier if I could see it in my head.
[17:35.050 --> 17:36.390]  But I can't.
[17:36.550 --> 17:37.990]  So not a clue.
[17:38.850 --> 17:47.030]  My earliest memory of something, if I think back when I was different because I had a Fantasia, it was in sixth grade.
[17:47.150 --> 17:48.490]  I don't remember much about sixth grade.
[17:48.770 --> 17:57.050]  But I do remember the teacher came up to me and asked me if I would draw for the newspaper, if I draw a picture of a cartoon of a frog.
[17:57.970 --> 18:00.270]  And I had no, I know what a frog looks like.
[18:00.430 --> 18:02.790]  I know what a cartoon of a frog, but I couldn't do it.
[18:02.790 --> 18:07.070]  But I had no clue where to even start or what it looked like.
[18:07.290 --> 18:08.110]  It wasn't a clue.
[18:08.910 --> 18:12.570]  But, if I had a picture there, I could have drawn it really good.
[18:13.030 --> 18:15.190]  If I had a picture in my mind, I could have done it.
[18:15.670 --> 18:17.090]  But, totally black.
[18:17.250 --> 18:17.950]  Could not have done it.
[18:18.090 --> 18:18.550]  Not a clue.
[18:20.670 --> 18:21.470]  Recognizing faces...
[18:22.070 --> 18:23.290]  I can recognize faces.
[18:23.290 --> 18:23.910]  It's really good.
[18:24.190 --> 18:25.230]  I've got a great...
[18:25.230 --> 18:26.710]  I can tell people's voices.
[18:26.990 --> 18:28.070]  I can recognize faces.
[18:33.170 --> 18:33.970]  This is what I see.
[18:34.090 --> 18:36.330]  Like if I close my eyes, I think about my kids.
[18:36.430 --> 18:37.390]  I can recognize my kids.
[18:37.610 --> 18:40.930]  But if I think about what they look like, are my XY's what they look like?
[18:41.250 --> 18:42.110]  This is what I see.
[18:42.790 --> 18:43.490]  Not a clue.
[18:43.630 --> 18:44.290]  I don't see anything.
[18:45.310 --> 18:48.890]  But if you ask me to describe their... I have not a clue.
[18:49.250 --> 18:49.910]  Not a clue.
[18:50.090 --> 18:50.830]  I can't do it.
[18:51.050 --> 18:58.170]  Like I can never understand... you know, see all these criminal sketch artists and people describe them, and they draw it and it looks like them?
[18:59.690 --> 19:00.710]  I couldn't do that.
[19:00.850 --> 19:01.150]  I don't know.
[19:01.210 --> 19:02.250]  I don't know how people did that.
[19:02.330 --> 19:03.230]  It's always strange to me.
[19:03.410 --> 19:06.810]  If you asked me to describe my... I couldn't.
[19:06.930 --> 19:07.430]  I don't know.
[19:07.570 --> 19:08.550]  I couldn't do it.
[19:08.810 --> 19:13.690]  And then if they tried to draw something, I wouldn't have an idea whether that was right or wrong.
[19:13.950 --> 19:14.570]  Not a clue.
[19:15.270 --> 19:15.650]  Yeah.
[19:16.130 --> 19:17.830]  So people with visitors, they can do it.
[19:18.230 --> 19:20.970]  Ah, aphantasia people can't do it, according to 4.0.
[19:23.210 --> 19:23.590]  Prosopagnosia.
[19:25.150 --> 19:25.530]  Prosopagnosia.
[19:25.690 --> 19:27.250]  It's a hard way to say prosopagnosia.
[19:27.250 --> 19:32.710]  That is not being able to... you see somebody and you don't know who they are.
[19:32.810 --> 19:36.790]  You don't recognize them because you see them, but you can't recognize them from their face.
[19:36.930 --> 19:39.050]  That's not the same thing as aphantasia, not at all.
[19:39.570 --> 19:40.450]  Oh, spoiler alert.
[19:41.170 --> 19:41.950]  Spoiler alert.
[19:42.870 --> 19:45.450]  From this video game, from 2010, 999.
[19:45.750 --> 19:47.150]  Nine hours, nine persons, nine doors.
[19:47.610 --> 19:53.650]  The killer, and he's the killer, in it, he had proto-whatever-aphantasia.
[19:53.650 --> 19:57.370]  And that's what he... that's what gave the clue that he was in.
[19:59.350 --> 20:00.110]  Recognizing surroundings.
[20:01.010 --> 20:03.950]  What I see, like, if I... I can see all y'all there.
[20:03.950 --> 20:06.930]  If I close my eyes, this is what I see in black.
[20:06.930 --> 20:08.390]  I don't see anything.
[20:08.530 --> 20:15.670]  Apparently, I'm told that most people, if you close your eyes, you still get a visual image of what you were looking at.
[20:17.130 --> 20:18.530]  I don't know what that means.
[20:18.790 --> 20:19.610]  I have not a clue.
[20:20.070 --> 20:21.970]  But this is the way my brain works.
[20:22.070 --> 20:22.410]  So I see that.
[20:22.490 --> 20:23.370]  I have no clue what that is.
[20:23.570 --> 20:24.750]  This is our cat, Bandit.
[20:24.850 --> 20:26.830]  Bandit's a... that cat is so scared.
[20:27.130 --> 20:27.910]  That's so scared.
[20:28.110 --> 20:31.270]  But you people that have cats, you know that... that cat...
[20:32.270 --> 20:33.930]  they know where every object is.
[20:34.170 --> 20:36.230]  She knows where every object in the room is.
[20:36.230 --> 20:37.010]  So he comes downstairs.
[20:37.610 --> 20:42.370]  If there's... if an object is gone, she'll go over and investigate why it's gone.
[20:42.370 --> 20:49.970]  Or if there's a new little object somewhere in a room, she'll see it and she'll go investigate it to see if, you know, if she can kill it or it can kill her.
[20:50.190 --> 20:51.890]  And she... then she just leaves it alone.
[20:52.210 --> 20:53.030]  That's amazing.
[20:53.190 --> 20:55.070]  So my... my mind is like...
[20:55.070 --> 20:58.950]  when you talk about visualizing objects, cats and spatial recognition.
[20:59.750 --> 21:00.150]  Question.
[21:00.290 --> 21:02.590]  I mean, do cats have aphantasia?
[21:03.150 --> 21:04.590]  I mean, really, does she...
[21:05.050 --> 21:08.170]  does she keep the objects in her mind or does she have the mental image?
[21:08.510 --> 21:09.470]  And how would you know?
[21:09.470 --> 21:13.630]  I mean, how would you figure out whether cats had aphantasia or not?
[21:14.490 --> 21:18.130]  I... I tell that to some people at work and they just laughed at me, but I was kind of being serious.
[21:18.390 --> 21:25.910]  I mean, if you can figure out a cat, maybe you could figure out a person and make sure they had aphantasia, and then you could have the different things for the chest.
[21:26.190 --> 21:27.110]  I mean, how could you tell?
[21:28.010 --> 21:31.870]  And there's different like questions, you know, is aphantasia familial?
[21:32.090 --> 21:35.190]  If anybody wants to do studies, this would be a great study to do.
[21:35.190 --> 21:37.690]  But first, you've got to be able to make sure they had aphantasia.
[21:38.370 --> 21:39.990]  Is it related to a gene?
[21:40.210 --> 21:41.390]  My guess is probably yes.
[21:41.390 --> 21:43.070]  It's not like a learned thing.
[21:43.070 --> 21:44.150]  It's probably related to a gene.
[21:44.910 --> 21:46.330]  The good patterns.
[21:46.910 --> 21:48.350]  So I think everybody...
[21:48.350 --> 21:49.210]  This is my speculation.
[21:49.370 --> 21:50.510]  I think everybody thinks in patterns.
[21:51.330 --> 21:53.090]  I really think in patterns.
[21:53.150 --> 21:53.650]  Oh my goodness.
[21:54.150 --> 21:56.670]  Do people with aphantasia excel with pattern recognition?
[21:56.850 --> 21:56.990]  Yeah.
[21:57.670 --> 21:59.010]  I mean, that's...
[21:59.010 --> 22:01.490]  I see everything in patterns, and I think in patterns.
[22:02.650 --> 22:03.490]  What about pathologists?
[22:03.570 --> 22:06.030]  One thing pathologists do, we get the biopsies from people.
[22:06.330 --> 22:09.290]  The doctors, you know, send us the tissue, and we look at it under the microscope.
[22:09.830 --> 22:13.030]  And so we're really good at pattern recognition.
[22:13.650 --> 22:14.970]  Pathologic cell pattern recognition.
[22:15.270 --> 22:19.570]  Yeah, and if we don't know what it is, we'll look it up in a book and say, oh, it kind of looks like this and stuff like that.
[22:20.170 --> 22:27.430]  So that being said, I have no idea what the slide looks like, but I can remember the sort of the details and stuff.
[22:27.630 --> 22:28.430]  It's kind of weird.
[22:28.870 --> 22:31.350]  So it's like pattern matching from pictures.
[22:31.570 --> 22:32.850]  I'm really good at that.
[22:33.290 --> 22:34.490]  In fact, if I see a...
[22:34.490 --> 22:40.770]  Like if I saw a picture of something of like a past specimen or something like that, I would remember that I've seen it before, like years later.
[22:40.910 --> 22:42.730]  I will remember that, and most pathologists do.
[22:43.070 --> 22:43.790]  It's kind of strange.
[22:44.630 --> 22:46.350]  Incidents of aphantasia and pathologists.
[22:46.350 --> 22:49.990]  I asked a couple of my co-workers about this, you know, give them the test.
[22:50.710 --> 22:54.270]  And they kind of said they had aphantasia, but I'm not so sure.
[22:54.490 --> 22:56.030]  So that's why I quit asking people.
[22:56.250 --> 22:57.550]  But that'd be an interesting thing.
[22:57.990 --> 22:58.770]  What about teaching?
[22:58.770 --> 22:59.830]  I've taught like forever.
[23:00.790 --> 23:01.230]  Organization.
[23:01.470 --> 23:03.370]  I'm really good at organization.
[23:03.750 --> 23:04.330]  Oh my God.
[23:04.670 --> 23:05.790]  Patterns and organization.
[23:06.210 --> 23:07.950]  And I love analogies.
[23:08.110 --> 23:09.390]  That's what I think makes a good teacher.
[23:09.630 --> 23:13.550]  I'm 24-7, always thinking about analogies.
[23:13.650 --> 23:15.690]  And would it help me explain something all the time?
[23:16.690 --> 23:17.990]  Patterns, patterns, patterns.
[23:18.350 --> 23:21.010]  That's what I think of, and I think that makes a good teacher.
[23:21.590 --> 23:22.390]  Do people with aphantasia?
[23:22.410 --> 23:23.130]  I think so.
[23:23.750 --> 23:24.590]  But not at all.
[23:24.690 --> 23:26.130]  But I think that's a good attribute.
[23:26.690 --> 23:28.190]  Incidents of aphantasia in teachers.
[23:28.370 --> 23:30.350]  Is it higher than the general population?
[23:30.550 --> 23:32.050]  I have no idea it would be interested in studying.
[23:33.210 --> 23:36.730]  Speculating on how aphantasia may create creativity in the hacker mindset.
[23:38.850 --> 23:41.850]  So, one of the people I worked with, I was telling him I was coming up here, did the thing.
[23:42.070 --> 23:47.670]  And he says, how can you give a talk about aphantasia at a hacker conference?
[23:48.830 --> 23:49.110]  Huh.
[23:49.890 --> 23:50.790]  That's a good question.
[23:51.430 --> 23:52.110]  That's a good question.
[23:52.190 --> 23:52.310]  Okay.
[23:52.350 --> 23:53.290]  So, that's the end of part one.
[23:53.290 --> 23:55.010]  So, that was me.
[23:55.210 --> 23:57.710]  And now we're going to part two.
[23:59.750 --> 24:01.270]  Google's going good so far.
[24:01.670 --> 24:02.230]  Part two.
[24:02.630 --> 24:04.630]  Aphantasia, hacking, and AI.
[24:06.290 --> 24:07.790]  Hacking and aphantasia.
[24:08.110 --> 24:09.230]  What is hacking?
[24:09.570 --> 24:11.070]  I know what hacking is.
[24:11.070 --> 24:12.170]  I know what I describe it.
[24:12.270 --> 24:14.310]  But I couldn't come up with a good definition.
[24:14.310 --> 24:15.070]  I tried to.
[24:15.230 --> 24:16.830]  So, I ran it by 4.0.
[24:17.630 --> 24:18.290]  4.0.
[24:18.430 --> 24:20.310]  And it was kind of good, but I like this down here.
[24:21.090 --> 24:21.450]  Clever.
[24:22.330 --> 24:23.470]  I stole that word.
[24:23.650 --> 24:24.290]  That's a good word.
[24:24.770 --> 24:25.130]  Clever.
[24:25.370 --> 24:25.890]  So, I did that.
[24:26.350 --> 24:28.810]  Clever use of technology to do something cool.
[24:29.330 --> 24:31.330]  That's my idea of hacking.
[24:32.310 --> 24:33.950]  And it's pretty much software hacking.
[24:34.090 --> 24:35.570]  At least, that's what you can do other kind of hacking.
[24:36.170 --> 24:37.890]  But hacking networks and stuff like that.
[24:37.970 --> 24:39.470]  But that's kind of what I think of software hacking.
[24:40.130 --> 24:42.610]  My earliest software hack that I remember.
[24:43.210 --> 24:45.530]  It was back in 1977.
[24:45.530 --> 24:47.170]  When I was first year of med school.
[24:48.130 --> 24:50.690]  Back then, Pong had just come out.
[24:50.810 --> 24:51.490]  Like the year before.
[24:51.710 --> 24:52.010]  Pong.
[24:52.130 --> 24:53.730]  You know, we were all amazed at Pong.
[24:53.870 --> 24:54.330]  Oh, my God.
[24:54.530 --> 24:56.050]  But you can't play Pong that long.
[24:56.530 --> 24:59.910]  But in the 70s, late 70s, backgammon was a thing.
[25:00.530 --> 25:02.130]  I don't know if it's come back or something.
[25:02.490 --> 25:03.310]  It was a thing.
[25:03.410 --> 25:04.610]  We played backgammon all the time.
[25:04.970 --> 25:13.730]  And about the time, in the first year, one of the biochemistry professors, he had a 2D plot printer.
[25:13.930 --> 25:14.930]  2D planet printer.
[25:16.150 --> 25:19.750]  And I asked him if I could have access to it because he could program it.
[25:19.870 --> 25:20.750]  And he said, yeah.
[25:21.050 --> 25:23.150]  So it's like, I remember it was 16K.
[25:23.610 --> 25:24.930]  The memory is 16K.
[25:25.250 --> 25:27.830]  I have no idea what the programming language was or not.
[25:28.110 --> 25:32.430]  But I programmed a backgammon game.
[25:32.630 --> 25:35.270]  On a 16K, on a 2D printer.
[25:35.590 --> 25:36.910]  It's like, oh my God, this is so cool.
[25:37.050 --> 25:40.390]  So I brought my friends up there to show them how cool this was, right?
[25:40.390 --> 25:41.250]  It's really, really cool.
[25:41.710 --> 25:43.630]  And it started playing backgammon.
[25:43.770 --> 25:49.550]  And about the third or the fourth move, my friend looked at its move and said, that's a stupid move.
[25:50.350 --> 25:52.070]  And I go, what?
[25:52.250 --> 25:52.570]  What?
[25:52.690 --> 25:54.450]  It's playing backgammon.
[25:54.570 --> 25:56.250]  And then he said, it's playing backgammon.
[25:56.410 --> 25:57.430]  It's like, oh my God.
[25:57.770 --> 25:59.270]  So it's like, wow.
[26:00.090 --> 26:05.290]  At least it didn't make an illegal move like the LLMs are doing when they try to play chess.
[26:05.290 --> 26:07.670]  It didn't make, it would have played a legal move.
[26:07.750 --> 26:08.290]  It might have been dumb.
[26:08.450 --> 26:09.710]  But it would have been illegal.
[26:10.190 --> 26:10.670]  Anyway.
[26:11.590 --> 26:12.530]  So hacking.
[26:12.690 --> 26:13.770]  Hacking takes I2.
[26:14.050 --> 26:15.250]  It takes a lot of things, but I2.
[26:16.050 --> 26:17.530]  Intelligence and imagination.
[26:18.190 --> 26:19.210]  And other things.
[26:19.290 --> 26:20.250]  Intelligence and imagination.
[26:21.250 --> 26:24.530]  Qualities found in people with aphantasia.
[26:24.730 --> 26:24.870]  Yeah.
[26:25.630 --> 26:26.870]  Intelligence and imagination.
[26:27.670 --> 26:29.010]  Hackers in aphantasia.
[26:29.470 --> 26:31.550]  Do people with aphantasia make good hackers?
[26:32.070 --> 26:34.650]  I think that would be a good study to do something like that.
[26:34.650 --> 26:36.870]  I think, from my own standpoint, yeah.
[26:37.650 --> 26:39.510]  Yeah, because I mean, it's an organizational thing.
[26:39.570 --> 26:42.770]  I can't see anything, so I've got to organize things really good.
[26:42.990 --> 26:45.690]  Not organize things concretely and all that kind of stuff.
[26:46.610 --> 26:48.170]  So my guess is yes.
[26:49.070 --> 26:53.110]  Incidents of aphantasia and hackers are probably greater than the national...
[26:53.110 --> 26:53.570]  I don't know.
[26:53.890 --> 26:54.770]  It would be interesting, Sonny.
[26:55.270 --> 27:02.090]  Maybe somebody, when you've got a good way, you could do a questionnaire maybe next year and pass it around and see what the results are.
[27:02.270 --> 27:03.670]  I'm not going to do it, but you could do it.
[27:05.190 --> 27:06.750]  Aphantasia versus AI.
[27:08.110 --> 27:09.990]  There is no A2 in AI.
[27:10.250 --> 27:11.770]  I always say there's no AI in AI.
[27:12.090 --> 27:12.870]  There's none.