[00:00.000 --> 00:01.580]  ...meetings, so take it away.
[00:03.500 --> 00:04.100]  Thank you.
[00:04.900 --> 00:05.580]  Hello, everyone.
[00:05.740 --> 00:06.640]  Welcome to our panel.
[00:07.120 --> 00:09.660]  2600 meetings yesterday, today, and tomorrow.
[00:11.040 --> 00:11.800]  Yes, thank you.
[00:12.700 --> 00:13.660]  Both of you, thank you.
[00:16.360 --> 00:17.860]  We sent out that many checks?
[00:19.680 --> 00:20.740]  Don't cash in for a week.
[00:22.180 --> 00:24.040]  Okay, let's start by introducing ourselves.
[00:25.100 --> 00:25.900]  Why don't you go first?
[00:25.900 --> 00:26.760]  I'm Gonzo.
[00:27.900 --> 00:28.840]  I'm Rob T. Firefly.
[00:28.940 --> 00:29.260]  Firefly.
[00:29.660 --> 00:30.420]  I'm Grey Frequency.
[00:30.900 --> 00:32.320]  I think you got a little closer.
[00:32.600 --> 00:33.620]  I'm Grey Frequency.
[00:33.920 --> 00:34.260]  There you are.
[00:34.960 --> 00:36.660]  And let's see.
[00:37.480 --> 00:43.960]  Grey Frequency and I have been running the website for the New York City 2600 meetings for a few years.
[00:44.120 --> 00:46.320]  We've been attending for far longer than that.
[00:46.780 --> 00:51.540]  And Gonzo is another longtime attendee as well, who might be showing up as Bernie S.
[00:51.540 --> 00:54.820]  if he gets away from whatever he's doing to come and join us.
[00:55.520 --> 01:02.480]  But Gonzo and I have been going to the New York City 2600 meetings for around about 13 years.
[01:02.740 --> 01:03.460]  13 years.
[01:04.300 --> 01:06.640]  October of 97 was my first meeting.
[01:07.180 --> 01:08.640]  Yeah, and mine was a little earlier.
[01:08.800 --> 01:09.960]  I think it was August of 97.
[01:10.860 --> 01:14.860]  And let's see, show of hands, how many people attend their own local meetings?
[01:17.320 --> 01:17.920]  That's it?
[01:20.840 --> 01:21.200]  Yes.
[01:21.740 --> 01:24.340]  And how many people have a local meeting but haven't gone yet?
[01:27.690 --> 01:28.650]  Let's finish out the equation.
[01:28.790 --> 01:30.590]  How many people don't have a local meeting and haven't gone yet?
[01:31.650 --> 01:33.730]  And how many people don't have a local meeting but have gone?
[01:36.910 --> 01:37.650]  More hands there.
[01:37.650 --> 01:37.970]  Yes.
[01:38.130 --> 01:38.490]  All right.
[01:38.770 --> 01:46.010]  Well, we can start with a little maybe explanation of the history and philosophy behind the meetings.
[01:46.270 --> 01:55.690]  They were started back in the late 80s by Emmanuel and the 2600 Magazine staff in an age where I see some younger folks out there.
[01:56.570 --> 02:06.610]  And back in the late 80s or so, the hacker community, the underground communities, the phone phreaks, were still mostly faceless in their own community.
[02:07.350 --> 02:10.130]  Internet and online activity was text-based primarily.
[02:10.610 --> 02:15.050]  And you sometimes had teleconferences and things like that where you'd hear people's voices.
[02:15.390 --> 02:18.170]  But there still wasn't much meeting up going on in the real world.
[02:18.690 --> 02:34.270]  And so the 2600 meetings were started to have a nice, decentralized, self-governing sort of way for people to meet up with people that are actually out in that real world, that scary place that doesn't have a screen in front of it separating you from it.
[02:36.070 --> 02:44.550]  And it was kind of a neat, revolutionary idea at the time to actually see the faces of these people behind the handles.
[02:45.210 --> 02:56.110]  And I think over the years, many sorts of interesting projects and developments and things have come from the 2600 meetings.
[02:56.110 --> 03:03.730]  And the way they were set up, I mentioned decentralized, the way they were set up is that no one's in charge.
[03:04.290 --> 03:13.610]  It's 2600 is the name of the magazine that publishes the list, but it's not under the governance of 2600 or of anyone else.
[03:14.110 --> 03:16.090]  They're all products of the communities they serve.
[03:16.330 --> 03:22.130]  If you start one, we have one here in New York, which is made up of the local community.
[03:22.310 --> 03:32.570]  But the one that comes up in some other town, in some other state, in some other country, will be a product of the people that are there and that are interested in gathering together and sharing their ideas and meeting up and stuff.
[03:32.570 --> 03:45.110]  And so the various groups can sort of grow and change and evolve in their own ways while serving their common interests.
[03:46.910 --> 03:55.070]  And I think, let's see, I think you have a good story of how you started, how you got wind of it and started attending it.
[03:55.070 --> 03:55.590]  Oh, yeah.
[03:56.270 --> 04:02.370]  For those of you who aren't familiar with me, I was a member of LOS way back when.
[04:03.190 --> 04:08.290]  And we used to seriously sit around saying, God, are we good enough to go to 2600?
[04:08.290 --> 04:09.610]  Can we compete?
[04:09.830 --> 04:13.430]  Because we figured that the guys were just walking PC boards.
[04:14.750 --> 04:18.730]  And we would seriously, God, I don't know, can we do what they can?
[04:19.770 --> 04:23.350]  Well, all these years later, I still wonder if I can still do what they can.
[04:23.350 --> 04:28.970]  But it took some time for me to get up enough to actually come here.
[04:29.150 --> 04:33.310]  It was in October of 97, I came to the first meeting.
[04:33.910 --> 04:37.590]  And I couldn't get over how much of a family vibe there was.
[04:37.750 --> 04:38.910]  I knew no one.
[04:39.650 --> 04:41.370]  LOS had broken up years before.
[04:41.370 --> 04:45.810]  I went on flying blind and I had so many people introducing themselves to me.
[04:46.810 --> 04:55.090]  People would come up and tell me, my name is so-and-so and this is this person and this is what's-his-face and this is him.
[04:55.610 --> 04:59.830]  And by the time I left, I said, man, there's no way in hell I could turn my back on this.
[05:00.050 --> 05:02.630]  There's too much of a gold mine here.
[05:03.170 --> 05:04.630]  I'm still digging it.
[05:04.630 --> 05:06.710]  And for those unfamiliar, LOS was...
[05:07.270 --> 05:08.870]  The Losers Only Society.
[05:09.510 --> 05:10.310]  We figured...
[05:10.310 --> 05:12.330]  We couldn't get a seat at the cool table.
[05:12.530 --> 05:16.650]  We said, all right, if you're going to call us losers, we're going to show you how much of losers we really are.
[05:18.150 --> 05:19.950]  They stopped calling us that pretty quick.
[05:22.610 --> 05:28.190]  And when I started coming to the meetings, it was really interesting for me.
[05:28.290 --> 05:29.510]  I was intimidated as all hell.
[05:30.550 --> 05:33.370]  And I had already gone through high school.
[05:33.570 --> 05:35.770]  I was, let's see, I was about 19, 20.
[05:38.030 --> 05:41.930]  And it was after I graduated high school and then a couple of years and then I was 19 and 20.
[05:42.170 --> 05:42.370]  So there.
[05:44.890 --> 05:48.050]  But I was still not a very social creature at all.
[05:48.050 --> 05:52.410]  Like, my online experience was, as I said, you know, text-based.
[05:52.610 --> 05:55.770]  I didn't have photos of myself up on the net yet at all.
[05:57.390 --> 06:06.750]  And I had spent a long time listening to Off the Hook and reading 2600 Magazine and, you know, participating in forums and things and getting involved.
[06:06.770 --> 06:09.190]  But it was still just all behind the screen.
[06:10.290 --> 06:19.110]  And I finally decided, after I missed Beyond HOPE because I couldn't get the time off work, I decided, okay, if I was ready to go to that conference, I'm ready to go to, you know, my local meeting.
[06:19.350 --> 06:34.590]  So the next month, I sort of skulked out of my lair and made my way out there and met up with one or two people whose screen names I knew from a forum and just went from there.
[06:34.590 --> 06:46.670]  And it turned out, like, long story short, back then I was sort of the brooding, quiet, artist-y kid in the back of the classroom with long hair and, you know, how times change.
[06:49.570 --> 06:56.230]  And I also had, like, a number of sort of social anxieties and I didn't, you know, deal well with humans and things like that.
[06:56.410 --> 07:04.910]  But it was because I had never found something like a 2600 meeting where here were people who at least shared certain common interests with me.
[07:06.050 --> 07:21.690]  You know, living in a small, you know, out in suburbia was sort of, it was a neat way to grow up feeling kind of particularly isolated, especially when all your best friends are names on screens that, you know, live in other states and other countries.
[07:22.990 --> 07:34.070]  So it was the first, a 2600 meeting was the first time that I had really met up with a group that knew me, basically, and shared certain interests with me.
[07:34.830 --> 07:51.310]  The parallel I like to draw is that those of you who might have been online in the late 80s, early 90s, mid 90s, whether you were on BBSs or, you know, AOL, CompuServe, whatever, when you went online on these services, no matter who someone was on the other end of the line,
[07:51.450 --> 07:54.610]  you knew they were at least nerdy enough to get onto the Internet because you had to be back then.
[07:55.310 --> 07:59.270]  And so you, like, I remember America Online Profiles in the early 90s.
[07:59.270 --> 08:03.710]  Your profile, like, had special listings for what kind of computer you were running and what OS you liked and things like that.
[08:03.710 --> 08:12.490]  And so anyone random you would meet at least shared the same common interests, you know, enough to get online.
[08:12.830 --> 08:16.130]  So going to a 2600 meeting was like a real-world equivalent of that.
[08:16.310 --> 08:17.470]  Okay, here's a bunch of strangers.
[08:17.650 --> 08:18.490]  Okay, I don't know what I'm doing.
[08:18.590 --> 08:19.530]  I don't know if I belong here.
[08:19.710 --> 08:26.070]  But hey, you know, they're obviously nerdy enough to take an interest and show up here.
[08:28.250 --> 08:34.050]  And, you know, I was hooked and I got to know people, made some great friends, and never stopped.
[08:34.570 --> 08:39.890]  And, Grey, if you would... I think there was a complete lunatic who dragged you to your first meeting.
[08:40.450 --> 08:41.350]  The lunatic.
[08:43.490 --> 08:48.150]  I actually didn't want to go to my first meeting, or my second, or my third.
[08:48.570 --> 08:51.090]  But I kept being dragged along.
[08:51.530 --> 09:01.890]  I didn't want to go because I was afraid that everyone would be the Honor Society kids, that I wouldn't blend in, that I had to only know programming languages instead of English.
[09:03.410 --> 09:08.670]  But once I was honest and said, I do not know, but I want to learn, then everyone talked.
[09:09.730 --> 09:12.770]  And thank you for dragging me again and again and again.
[09:15.010 --> 09:16.890]  Yeah, it's... and...
[09:17.530 --> 09:18.110]  Excuse me.
[09:18.270 --> 09:26.510]  She mentioned something that's actually kind of important for people who are interested in showing up, but who haven't, who are maybe still wondering, you know, do I know enough things?
[09:26.710 --> 09:27.370]  Am I smart enough?
[09:27.530 --> 09:30.150]  Do I believe in the right subjects or whatever?
[09:31.610 --> 09:36.650]  Because, as I said, they're all purely products of the areas and the people they serve.
[09:36.850 --> 09:41.490]  So, if you're interested in going to a 2600 meeting, you're the right sort of person to go to a 2600 meeting.
[09:43.490 --> 09:53.090]  The meetings I've been to and the meetings my friends elsewhere have been to are, like, some of the most eclectic and, you know, wide-ranging and diverse groups that I've known.
[09:53.390 --> 09:58.030]  And this is all, you know, politically, you know, gender, lifestyle, whatever.
[09:58.030 --> 10:07.730]  There are people of all these different disparate interests, but who can either debate these things or put them aside and, you know, focus on what they do have in common.
[10:08.050 --> 10:12.610]  And some really great friendships and things have grown from this.
[10:12.610 --> 10:16.310]  And we've actually, I think you...
[10:16.310 --> 10:17.710]  Did you want to read this or...?
[10:17.710 --> 10:17.950]  Sure.
[10:19.330 --> 10:19.990]  Go ahead.
[10:20.310 --> 10:24.450]  Rob ended up mentioning on Off The Hook about this panel.
[10:24.450 --> 10:28.810]  And this fellow, Metatron from Brighton 2600 out in the U.K.
[10:29.870 --> 10:34.730]  He sent this email explaining how the meetings there started back in the 90s.
[10:34.830 --> 10:37.450]  They have notes back from 2003, which I think is cool.
[10:38.830 --> 10:41.790]  They're at meetings, you know, and they're just...
[10:41.790 --> 10:42.870]  The experience is there.
[10:42.990 --> 10:48.950]  And I wanted to quote him, because I really felt that it really covered how I also felt.
[10:50.590 --> 11:00.910]  He says, I think the biggest thing 2600 meetings has done for me is expand my knowledge in a very wide area of subjects, plus helped me to develop a group of like-minded friends.
[11:01.430 --> 11:03.130]  And that's someone I haven't met.
[11:03.310 --> 11:06.330]  This is just someone that sent an email so that we would know.
[11:07.130 --> 11:11.510]  And to know someone in a place I've never been feels the same way.
[11:12.030 --> 11:13.510]  I like that universal sense.
[11:15.310 --> 11:19.750]  I once visited Seattle this April and went to their 2600 meeting.
[11:20.050 --> 11:26.210]  And I like that even though I was in cosplay, because I went for an anime conference, they still welcomed me.
[11:26.930 --> 11:28.270]  And it was fabulous.
[11:29.590 --> 11:34.910]  And I could only stay for about an hour, but it was so welcoming in a place I haven't been.
[11:35.070 --> 11:38.970]  And all I had to say was, I go to 2600 meetings too, and I want to come to this one.
[11:38.970 --> 11:39.790]  And they're like, okay.
[11:40.590 --> 11:41.430]  It was great.
[11:42.790 --> 11:43.230]  Yeah.
[11:43.450 --> 11:50.670]  A really sort of strange and unusual parallel I realized was...
[11:52.110 --> 11:54.070]  Here, slight history lesson.
[11:54.270 --> 12:07.550]  The Roman Catholic Church used to train all their clergy in Latin, and they would give all the masses everywhere in every country in Latin, just for the purpose that when you went to church in any country, it would be the same mass in the same language that you were used to,
[12:07.550 --> 12:08.550]  and you would know what was going on.
[12:08.630 --> 12:10.730]  Even if you didn't speak the local language, you would be able to go to church.
[12:11.390 --> 12:27.390]  And say what you will about the Roman Catholic Church, but that in itself was a really neat idea, which is kind of what's come up with 2600 meetings, where wherever you are, if you happen to be in a strange city with no friends, no clue what to do with yourself,
[12:27.430 --> 12:38.750]  and it's a meeting day and you go there, you'll find people with things in common with you who are willing to share their sort of stories and adventures and welcome you with open arms, basically.
[12:39.630 --> 12:47.910]  And it's, by and large, what I've heard from so many people in so many different areas is how welcoming and accepting it is.
[12:48.070 --> 12:52.330]  And for people who don't have a 2600 meeting, it's very easy to start one.
[12:52.990 --> 12:54.310]  Basically, you have to send an email.
[12:55.490 --> 12:56.210]  And that's it.
[12:57.870 --> 13:05.350]  The 2600.com slash meetings page, as well as the pages in the back of the magazine, list all the meetings worldwide.
[13:05.810 --> 13:15.590]  And to get on that list, you basically just have to, if you're in a place that doesn't have a meeting, you just have to send an email to the address on the page and let them know, okay, I want to start a meeting here on this day.
[13:16.490 --> 13:17.930]  There are very few rules.
[13:18.150 --> 13:20.550]  It just has to be somewhere, you know, publicly accessible.
[13:21.370 --> 13:28.490]  A lot of them are in places like food courts, sort of things like that, that people have no problem getting to.
[13:30.610 --> 13:35.210]  And basically, it's, you know, we have a large one here in the city just because it's a big city.
[13:35.850 --> 13:41.490]  There are 2600 meetings in smaller areas that are two or three people at a table in a food court.
[13:41.870 --> 13:44.350]  And they could top out at that.
[13:44.450 --> 13:44.950]  They can grow.
[13:45.150 --> 13:49.390]  They could, you know, do whatever comes naturally.
[13:51.450 --> 14:06.050]  And I think a big part of the 2600 meeting thing, especially in the early days, was that people were kind of, the whole community as a whole, like we didn't have things like these conferences and hackerspaces really in their present forms.
[14:06.310 --> 14:11.930]  And people were, a lot of people were worried that, you know, should we be doing this out in public?
[14:11.930 --> 14:13.270]  I mean, we're hackers.
[14:13.490 --> 14:14.170]  We're phone pheaks.
[14:14.270 --> 14:19.590]  We have these interests that the newspapers like to print in big letters and talk about in somber voices on the evening news.
[14:21.810 --> 14:29.130]  And a big concern we get as admins of the website even today is that, you know, why are we doing this in public?
[14:29.270 --> 14:34.000]  Why is this not in some shadowy basement somewhere where we can do things in secret without worry?
[14:34.780 --> 14:38.820]  I mean, in Citigroup, the building in which we have ours, I think the FBI actually has offices.
[14:39.420 --> 14:40.860]  That's what I had heard.
[14:41.120 --> 14:41.280]  Yeah.
[14:41.720 --> 14:42.140]  They do.
[14:42.440 --> 14:42.660]  Yeah.
[14:42.920 --> 14:44.960]  And the...
[14:46.340 --> 14:46.920]  I'm sorry?
[14:47.220 --> 14:48.260]  Just to watch over us?
[14:48.560 --> 14:49.920]  Yes, just to watch over us.
[14:50.540 --> 14:52.260]  We need babysitters apparently.
[14:52.260 --> 14:53.860]  We can't be trusted on our own.
[14:54.660 --> 14:59.120]  But the cool thing about the meetings is that, you know, it's not...
[14:59.120 --> 15:02.980]  At least, as I checked, it's not illegal to meet up in public and talk about things.
[15:03.120 --> 15:06.120]  In fact, it's awesome because it's basically...
[15:06.120 --> 15:11.780]  The very existence of the meeting is saying, you know, we're not doing anything wrong.
[15:11.820 --> 15:17.600]  And we believe that strongly enough to come out here and enjoy ourselves and live our lives and do this.
[15:19.940 --> 15:24.160]  And people have talked about meetings getting infiltrated and things like that.
[15:24.280 --> 15:27.940]  But the real honest story is that there's nothing...
[15:27.940 --> 15:36.460]  You know, an undercover agent at a 2600 meeting is just going to be very bored because he's not going to be into the conversations that are going on and, you know, he'll have to act like he is.
[15:36.640 --> 15:37.240]  The poor bastard.
[15:37.880 --> 15:39.440]  They might actually be into it.
[15:39.500 --> 15:39.920]  You never know.
[15:40.060 --> 15:40.400]  They might.
[15:40.520 --> 15:40.820]  They might.
[15:41.580 --> 15:42.940]  We might convert feds.
[15:46.880 --> 15:47.240]  Really?
[15:48.080 --> 15:49.160]  That would be cool, actually.
[15:49.600 --> 15:51.920]  If you're a fed, come and see us.
[15:52.040 --> 15:52.740]  We'd like to convert you.
[15:53.360 --> 15:56.760]  But the truth is that, yeah, we aren't doing anything wrong.
[15:56.900 --> 15:58.540]  We're doing something that's, in fact, very right.
[15:59.940 --> 16:00.300]  And...
[16:01.640 --> 16:02.220]  I don't know.
[16:02.380 --> 16:06.940]  Like, some cool things that have started at 2600 meetings over the years.
[16:07.120 --> 16:08.140]  Like, there have been...
[16:08.140 --> 16:14.100]  At these meetings, there have been, you know, the genesis of things like hackerspaces everywhere started at their local meetings.
[16:14.940 --> 16:18.160]  You know, movements, activist movements.
[16:18.420 --> 16:21.240]  Like, Free Kevin had a lot of activity at the 2600 meetings everywhere.
[16:21.620 --> 16:24.120]  It became sort of a focus for that, for people who were working on that.
[16:25.300 --> 16:27.560]  Freedom Downtime was made in part at the 2600 meetings.
[16:27.700 --> 16:34.420]  We've had, you know, interviewers and journalists and authors and stuff from all over the place show up at our meetings.
[16:35.580 --> 16:39.360]  A certain film from 1995, starring Angelina Jolie.
[16:41.180 --> 16:46.160]  The producer and actors all went to the 2600 meeting in New York City for a while.
[16:46.400 --> 16:49.160]  And Emmanuel Goldstein will tell you about meeting Angelina Jolie if you ask him.
[16:50.640 --> 16:51.940]  Apparently, she was wearing the skates.
[16:54.600 --> 17:07.680]  And the thing is that we've had all sorts of interest because the mainstream media will see these things and think, well, they're also expecting us to be meeting up in a shady basement somewhere plotting to overthrow whatever.
[17:08.300 --> 17:19.680]  But when they come and they show up and they see it's a bunch of reasonable people from all walks of life who just share some common nerdy interests, usually they walk away disappointed because that doesn't make for good evening news.
[17:22.380 --> 17:23.820]  But we've also also...
[17:23.820 --> 17:24.460]  Hello.
[17:25.240 --> 17:26.680]  We've got Bernie S, ladies and gentlemen.
[17:33.700 --> 17:34.500]  Technical issues.
[17:35.620 --> 17:36.420]  Technical issues.
[17:36.500 --> 17:36.620]  Technical difficulties.
[17:36.620 --> 17:37.700]  Technical difficulties at HOPE.
[17:39.120 --> 17:39.520]  No.
[17:39.940 --> 17:40.000]  No.
[17:40.640 --> 17:41.120]  Yeah, right?
[17:41.780 --> 17:43.800]  Maybe you go over there and get the wider shot again.
[17:43.880 --> 17:45.220]  Are you showing me away?
[17:45.360 --> 17:46.140]  Yes, I'm showing you away.
[17:46.180 --> 17:46.800]  Do you want me to?
[17:47.000 --> 17:47.360]  No.
[17:47.960 --> 17:48.800]  Hi, Gonzo.
[17:49.100 --> 17:49.680]  Hey, Bernie.
[17:50.140 --> 17:51.340]  Can we also please sit over here?
[17:51.360 --> 17:51.420]  Good to see you.
[17:51.960 --> 17:52.400]  We're friends.
[17:53.200 --> 17:53.500]  Great.
[17:54.060 --> 17:54.300]  Broad.
[17:55.500 --> 17:56.440]  Why am I here?
[17:56.620 --> 17:57.540]  Why are you here?
[17:58.480 --> 17:58.820]  Because...
[17:58.820 --> 17:58.860]  Oh.
[17:58.980 --> 18:00.480]  Yes, we're talking about 2600 meetings.
[18:00.820 --> 18:03.060]  And you had a hand in starting your local one.
[18:03.200 --> 18:03.880]  Did you not?
[18:05.480 --> 18:12.140]  In Philadelphia, where I've been living for like a quarter century, there is a 2600 meeting.
[18:12.480 --> 18:15.300]  The very first 2600 meeting in Philadelphia was in 1987.
[18:17.920 --> 18:18.720]  Maybe 88.
[18:20.200 --> 18:23.120]  Which Emmanuel tried to kick off.
[18:23.480 --> 18:24.300]  And it was...
[18:24.300 --> 18:25.280]  Only three people showed up.
[18:25.440 --> 18:28.880]  It was Emmanuel, myself, and a guy named Mike Yuhas.
[18:28.980 --> 18:30.100]  And I knew Emanuel before that.
[18:31.240 --> 18:32.220]  So he showed up.
[18:32.420 --> 18:34.140]  And it was great.
[18:34.220 --> 18:34.800]  It was a good meeting.
[18:34.980 --> 18:37.300]  And then nothing happened for a couple of years.
[18:37.560 --> 18:40.360]  So in 1990, I decided...
[18:40.360 --> 18:41.960]  And then they were starting to pop up in other places.
[18:41.960 --> 18:50.000]  So I put a little ad in 2600 Magazine after scoping out 30th Street Station as like the central place in Philadelphia where it was easy to get to from anywhere.
[18:51.280 --> 18:54.800]  And I don't know if people remember reading the ad in there for that, which has been in there for many years.
[18:55.040 --> 18:55.400]  Under...
[18:55.400 --> 18:56.880]  Behind Stairwell 7.
[18:57.460 --> 18:58.660]  So it was a lucky number.
[18:58.660 --> 19:02.660]  So we put the ad in there and people started showing up.
[19:02.920 --> 19:04.100]  And they started...
[19:04.100 --> 19:07.280]  I think 2600 was still monthly back then, wasn't it?
[19:07.340 --> 19:09.320]  1990, was it monthly or was it a quarterly by then?
[19:09.400 --> 19:09.860]  I'm trying to remember.
[19:10.020 --> 19:10.320]  I'm not sure.
[19:11.120 --> 19:14.080]  Anybody remember when they went monthly, when they went quarterly?
[19:14.440 --> 19:16.700]  Anyway, more and more people started coming.
[19:16.840 --> 19:18.940]  And I started inviting like professionals to come.
[19:19.040 --> 19:24.380]  Like I would call Bell Atlantic Mobile Systems, which was the cellular carrier of choice then.
[19:24.380 --> 19:30.180]  And I had like mobile systems engineers coming, talking about the microcells they had just installed in 30th Street Station.
[19:31.080 --> 19:31.720]  And then telling...
[19:31.720 --> 19:33.500]  We had social engineermen to telling us where the...
[19:33.500 --> 19:34.300]  Where the...
[19:34.300 --> 19:37.740]  Where the equipment was like below ground at the station for...
[19:37.740 --> 19:39.820]  To control the cellular system and where...
[19:39.820 --> 19:41.680]  Where it was beaming to through microwave.
[19:41.840 --> 19:41.960]  Whatever.
[19:42.160 --> 19:43.340]  They would just tell us all this stuff.
[19:43.740 --> 19:44.920]  They didn't know we were hackers, I guess.
[19:45.020 --> 19:45.240]  I don't know.
[19:45.280 --> 19:48.560]  But we had over 40 people at some time showing up for these meetings.
[19:49.180 --> 19:49.620]  And...
[19:49.620 --> 19:50.380]  And it was really great.
[19:50.640 --> 19:51.340]  And then it all...
[19:51.340 --> 19:52.560]  That lasted for...
[19:52.560 --> 19:53.560]  I guess...
[19:53.560 --> 19:54.980]  Good until about 94.
[19:56.720 --> 19:57.080]  And...
[19:57.080 --> 19:57.600]  Should I shut up now?
[19:57.680 --> 19:59.140]  Should I talk about the Secret Service showing up?
[20:00.120 --> 20:00.480]  No.
[20:00.560 --> 20:02.020]  I don't think these guys want to hear about that, do you?
[20:03.120 --> 20:03.440]  Okay.
[20:04.140 --> 20:04.580]  All right.
[20:04.700 --> 20:05.640]  What's another good story?
[20:06.960 --> 20:07.320]  No.
[20:07.320 --> 20:08.520]  Let's hear about the Secret Service showing up.
[20:10.120 --> 20:13.000]  You folks remember the Pentagon Mall 2600 meeting story?
[20:13.080 --> 20:13.860]  Did you talk about that already?
[20:14.080 --> 20:14.380]  Not yet.
[20:14.620 --> 20:14.920]  All right.
[20:15.100 --> 20:15.460]  Well...
[20:15.460 --> 20:21.460]  There was front page news in the Washington Post about the 2600 meeting at the Pentagon Mall.
[20:21.460 --> 20:22.920]  The shopping mall called the Pentagon Mall.
[20:23.180 --> 20:24.120]  It's not in the Pentagon.
[20:26.300 --> 20:26.820]  And...
[20:26.820 --> 20:29.460]  Some kids at that meeting were getting...
[20:29.460 --> 20:31.440]  Were just sort of...
[20:33.160 --> 20:34.020]  Searched illegally.
[20:34.260 --> 20:39.760]  Just detained and searched and their bags were gone through and stuff by the security guards at the mall.
[20:41.140 --> 20:47.580]  And the people that attended the meeting contacted somebody at the Washington Post and said, hey, this wasn't legal.
[20:47.880 --> 20:48.680]  We didn't like this.
[20:49.160 --> 20:49.780]  So they...
[20:49.780 --> 20:50.760]  Newspaper reporters...
[20:51.540 --> 20:51.980]  They don't...
[20:51.980 --> 20:53.000]  They don't exist anymore, really.
[20:53.120 --> 20:53.640]  Newspaper reporters.
[20:53.780 --> 20:59.180]  Back then, they actually did an investigation and they made some phone calls and they called the mall security police and said, well, it really wasn't us.
[20:59.260 --> 21:01.120]  The Secret Service put us up to this whole thing.
[21:01.120 --> 21:10.580]  So then it turns out that Secret Service had used the mall security guys as sort of stooges to do their illegal bidding.
[21:11.120 --> 21:17.060]  And this was all documented in the Washington Post and in the front page news and I believe the EFF got involved with that whole thing.
[21:17.060 --> 21:22.140]  And there was a whole legal case and they were scolded by a federal judge for doing that.
[21:22.340 --> 21:35.320]  And so it was like a year or so after that that we started noticing at the 30th Street Station Philadelphia meeting that there were guys in suits checking us out from afar and they didn't look like us.
[21:38.840 --> 21:43.020]  And so I suspected they might be the same... from the same company.
[21:45.060 --> 21:57.900]  And I can't go into too many details about the next spot, but I obtained surveillance photographs of undercover Secret Service agents picking their noses.
[21:58.220 --> 22:05.220]  And I brought them to 2600 meetings saying, if you see these guys around, they are almost certainly undercover Secret Service agents.
[22:05.820 --> 22:07.860]  And people said, yeah, I recognize that guy.
[22:08.080 --> 22:13.120]  So we taped them up on the wall for everybody to look at the meeting, which is right in the big... in the train station.
[22:13.200 --> 22:13.760]  Everybody could see it.
[22:15.500 --> 22:22.740]  A week before that, somebody from the meeting, and it wasn't me, contacted the local Free Weekly.
[22:23.040 --> 22:30.460]  And the Free Weekly did a story about the Amtrak police that were also trying to kick us out.
[22:30.560 --> 22:35.180]  So what I think is a Secret Service was putting the Amtrak cops up into harassing us.
[22:37.280 --> 22:45.300]  And so that's when I put the pictures up to say, if you see these guys, they're probably responsible for this nonsense, because it followed a pattern from the 2600 meeting in Pentagon Mall.
[22:45.600 --> 22:57.680]  And then the local Fox TV affiliate, WTXF or XTF, Channel 29 in Philadelphia, the local news...
[22:57.680 --> 23:01.860]  They read the newspaper story in the city paper, and then they showed up at the next 2600 meeting.
[23:02.520 --> 23:03.980]  And look at who did a story about the hackers.
[23:04.700 --> 23:08.800]  And that was the meeting where the pictures were taped in the mall, on the wall, and they're like, what are these pictures?
[23:08.980 --> 23:13.640]  And they're, well, they're Secret Service agents that have been harassing meetings like this one, we think.
[23:14.180 --> 23:18.260]  And I declined to be on camera, but other people were like, yeah, and it was a funny piece.
[23:18.360 --> 23:21.300]  It was on the evening news a few days later, and the secrets...
[23:21.600 --> 23:27.700]  The gist of the story was like, these hackers really aren't doing anything wrong with the meeting, but they think they're under surveillance by the Secret Service, because it's happened at other meetings.
[23:28.540 --> 23:31.240]  But it looks like the hackers have them under surveillance too.
[23:31.580 --> 23:37.760]  And we thought that was a very funny story, until the Secret Service discovered like a year later that I was the one who put the pictures up on the wall.
[23:38.260 --> 23:43.300]  And I found out from my attorney who used to be a...
[23:43.300 --> 23:53.180]  I'm not going to go into my whole case, but my attorney used to be a federal prosecutor himself in the U.S. Attorney's Office in Philadelphia, and worked with, coincidentally, my prosecutor.
[23:53.180 --> 23:55.500]  But he was now my defense attorney.
[23:55.660 --> 23:57.960]  So they had a very close working relationship from before.
[23:58.220 --> 24:07.340]  And she told him that the real reason I was in jail had everything to do with the photographs and files of information I had in my personal files about the Secret Service.
[24:07.480 --> 24:11.420]  Nothing to do with telephone equipment or whatever.
[24:11.680 --> 24:14.180]  So anyhow, it was fun.
[24:18.800 --> 24:23.360]  94 was when the pictures were distributed at the 2600 meeting.
[24:23.800 --> 24:23.840]  Yeah.
[24:24.260 --> 24:28.620]  And that's a shining example of the mainstream really not knowing what to do with us.
[24:28.880 --> 24:31.180]  And I approve of that sort of thing.
[24:33.520 --> 24:34.400]  But the...
[24:34.400 --> 24:34.620]  Yes?
[24:34.720 --> 24:36.920]  Don't let this deter you from showing up in a suit.
[24:37.300 --> 24:42.120]  Because if you get off of work and you show up in a suit, you know, I've gone in cosplay.
[24:42.320 --> 24:43.980]  I've gone all grungy.
[24:44.160 --> 24:45.460]  I've gone dressed up, you know.
[24:46.060 --> 24:47.300]  Go get to know people.
[24:47.680 --> 24:48.580]  Let them get to know you.
[24:48.840 --> 24:50.200]  It doesn't matter if you're in a suit or not.
[24:50.740 --> 24:54.840]  I will say I met a lot of really interesting people at that 2600 meeting.
[24:55.000 --> 24:55.920]  I don't go anymore...
[24:55.920 --> 24:58.720]  I stopped going after my whole federal case was over because...
[24:58.720 --> 25:00.660]  Well, I showed up once at the meeting after my federal case was over.
[25:01.480 --> 25:04.300]  And there was a guy who turned out to be an informant in my case.
[25:04.440 --> 25:05.140]  And he was at the meeting.
[25:05.800 --> 25:09.060]  And I gather he was gathering intelligence on other people at the meeting.
[25:09.180 --> 25:10.380]  And I didn't want to have anything to do with him.
[25:10.400 --> 25:11.200]  So I stopped going.
[25:11.300 --> 25:11.920]  And that was a long time ago.
[25:12.000 --> 25:13.360]  You've been to ours a couple of times though.
[25:13.920 --> 25:14.280]  Probably.
[25:14.820 --> 25:19.740]  But I met some long mates, like friends for like, you know, like 15 years.
[25:20.260 --> 25:24.040]  Friends and really people that I never would have met otherwise at that meeting.
[25:24.280 --> 25:27.400]  There would have been good contacts and good resources and friends.
[25:27.400 --> 25:28.080]  Yeah.
[25:28.360 --> 25:29.780]  How many different...
[25:29.780 --> 25:31.880]  How much symbiosis happens at these meetings?
[25:32.020 --> 25:35.060]  Where you run into people and then you just build these relationships and projects.
[25:35.060 --> 25:35.580]  It's amazing.
[25:35.840 --> 25:36.060]  Yeah.
[25:36.140 --> 25:37.140]  It's really amazing.
[25:37.440 --> 25:40.800]  I mean, I've got a couple of my best friends up here.
[25:40.900 --> 25:41.760]  And I met them at meetings.
[25:41.960 --> 25:44.800]  Or, you know, a bunch of you in the audience.
[25:44.940 --> 25:45.960]  I've met you at meetings.
[25:46.240 --> 25:47.900]  And it's just...
[25:47.900 --> 25:53.520]  These people who are involved in my life, it's such a privilege to have them in my life.
[25:53.520 --> 25:58.360]  And it wouldn't have happened if not for these weird little events that let you meet up with like-minded folks.
[25:58.800 --> 26:00.980]  And, as I said, it's really...
[26:00.980 --> 26:05.940]  Even nowadays, when everyone's got, you know, social networking this and photos all over the net that.
[26:06.140 --> 26:08.440]  And everything seems so weird and wide open.
[26:09.240 --> 26:13.460]  There are still communities in which there's somewhere...
[26:13.460 --> 26:21.940]  There's one guy in a basement or in his room somewhere wondering if there's anyone else nearby who is anything like him.
[26:22.580 --> 26:25.300]  And chances are there is.
[26:25.520 --> 26:27.560]  Because geeks like us are freaking everywhere.
[26:28.740 --> 26:39.580]  And there's really no better way to use that and to vastly improve your life than to meet up and see where things go.
[26:40.740 --> 26:42.720]  Getting back to the Fed thing a minute.
[26:42.860 --> 26:47.960]  We've got a funny story that happened here about ten years or so ago.
[26:48.260 --> 26:50.360]  There's someone who he's in attendance here today.
[26:50.360 --> 26:51.720]  I won't say his name.
[26:52.540 --> 26:56.100]  Had one of the security guards in the city core center come up to him.
[26:56.440 --> 26:58.540]  And ask, can you help me?
[26:58.720 --> 26:59.640]  I'm in a bit of trouble.
[27:00.020 --> 27:01.580]  So there's the first red flag.
[27:01.880 --> 27:04.920]  And then right after it, he said, you can trust me.
[27:05.080 --> 27:05.980]  I'm a regular guy.
[27:08.100 --> 27:09.740]  And so the plot sickens.
[27:10.100 --> 27:12.000]  Does that mean he wasn't constipated?
[27:12.420 --> 27:13.520]  I don't know.
[27:13.820 --> 27:16.620]  I mean, you know, he did have that weird look on his face.
[27:16.740 --> 27:18.100]  So it's quite possible.
[27:19.960 --> 27:24.760]  So he pulled him aside and he asked him, well, look, I'm having some trouble with my credit.
[27:24.920 --> 27:25.740]  Can you help me out?
[27:26.300 --> 27:27.560]  And my friend said, well, yeah.
[27:27.640 --> 27:28.700]  Did you try paying your bills?
[27:30.740 --> 27:35.460]  And it seemed like ever since that time, they left us alone.
[27:36.080 --> 27:41.560]  So I don't know if it's just the sarcasm is too much for him or, you know, I don't know what their problem was.
[27:41.720 --> 27:42.860]  Perhaps he took your advice.
[27:43.620 --> 27:44.020]  Maybe.
[27:44.420 --> 27:46.020]  Maybe he got a better job somewhere.
[27:46.020 --> 27:49.420]  So they're asking like really obvious leading questions.
[27:50.020 --> 27:53.780]  Trying to like, like really lame entrapment attempts.
[27:54.060 --> 27:54.400]  Oh, yeah.
[27:54.900 --> 27:56.680]  He mentioned TRW specifically.
[27:57.920 --> 28:09.520]  And the great thing about this is we get not only like obvious spooky stuff like that, but just regular people who think hackers are what they see in Hollywood films and things like that.
[28:09.520 --> 28:16.220]  And they come up and they're like, are you the guys who can, you know, hack my girlfriend's voicemail so I can see if she's cheating on me?
[28:16.480 --> 28:19.320]  And, you know, running the website, we get emails like this all the time.
[28:19.320 --> 28:21.980]  And it's really, it's really hilarious to note.
[28:22.180 --> 28:25.480]  And it's actually fun to correct these people's misconceptions.
[28:25.900 --> 28:29.720]  And the first thing I usually do is invite them to come down to the meeting if they're emailing.
[28:29.940 --> 28:42.380]  And once they're there, a bunch of us can kind of impress upon them what's real and what's, you know, Hollywood action heroes and girls in catsuits doing roundhouse kicks.
[28:44.260 --> 28:45.220]  On roller skates.
[28:45.320 --> 28:46.160]  On roller skates, yes.
[28:47.400 --> 28:52.220]  And I think that's another reason it's so important to have these things out in public.
[28:52.460 --> 28:58.980]  Like people, your average member of society is only going to get what information is presented in front of them.
[28:59.080 --> 29:08.400]  If all they're seeing are hackers on, you know, in films as the, or hackers as the bad guy who's stealing a bunch of money with a, you know, by tapping three keystrokes at a certain time.
[29:08.900 --> 29:09.580]  You know, it's...
[29:09.580 --> 29:10.880]  With great sound effects.
[29:10.880 --> 29:14.240]  Yeah, with great sound effects and the text reflecting backwards on their faces.
[29:14.440 --> 29:16.360]  Giant fonts on the screen.
[29:16.640 --> 29:16.880]  Yes.
[29:18.020 --> 29:24.180]  And, you know, there's only one way to counteract the bullshit machine, really, which is to get the truth out there.
[29:24.340 --> 29:27.680]  And what better way to get the truth out there than to go out there and experience it?
[29:27.980 --> 29:31.360]  Rob, have you ever been to a 2600 meeting in a foreign land?
[29:31.600 --> 29:32.380]  I have not.
[29:32.560 --> 29:33.340]  I've always wanted to.
[29:33.560 --> 29:35.180]  And, you know, it's definitely up there on my list.
[29:35.240 --> 29:37.640]  Has anyone here been in a 2600 meeting outside of the United States?
[29:38.100 --> 29:40.380]  What country?
[29:41.000 --> 29:41.620]  New York.
[29:42.200 --> 29:42.280]  Okay.
[29:42.540 --> 29:43.260]  What other countries?
[29:43.500 --> 29:44.360]  The Czech Republic.
[29:44.600 --> 29:45.040]  Oh, wow.
[29:45.100 --> 29:45.680]  What was that like?
[29:45.880 --> 29:49.380]  I couldn't understand that.
[29:49.500 --> 29:50.660]  I've been to the Czech Republic.
[29:51.540 --> 29:55.060]  I was in the Czech Republic too, but unfortunately not during the first Friday of the month.
[29:55.220 --> 29:58.700]  But almost every day I spoke English, so what was the problem?
[29:59.240 --> 30:04.980]  They said hey, and then they were going about whatever project they were discussing and just kind of ate together.
[30:05.880 --> 30:06.280]  Okay.
[30:06.680 --> 30:07.480]  What other countries?
[30:08.800 --> 30:09.980]  2600 meetings in other countries?
[30:10.100 --> 30:10.220]  Anybody?
[30:10.720 --> 30:10.800]  No?
[30:11.300 --> 30:12.500]  Czech Republic and New York.
[30:13.600 --> 30:14.540]  It's not from Canada.
[30:14.640 --> 30:15.440]  It's a foreign country.
[30:15.640 --> 30:15.900]  All right.
[30:16.000 --> 30:16.320]  Canadian?
[30:16.600 --> 30:18.360]  Anybody here go to a Canadian 2600 meeting?
[30:18.600 --> 30:20.020]  I mean, if you look in the back, you have?
[30:20.540 --> 30:21.260]  What part of Canada?
[30:21.260 --> 30:21.780]  I'm from Canada.
[30:22.060 --> 30:22.780]  Well, what meeting?
[30:23.020 --> 30:23.600]  What city?
[30:23.600 --> 30:26.980]  The Edmonton one when it used to be around, I've been to Vancouver as well.
[30:27.680 --> 30:28.180]  I'm sorry?
[30:28.420 --> 30:30.340]  I've been to the Edmonton one when it was around.
[30:30.700 --> 30:31.060]  Edmonton?
[30:31.340 --> 30:31.700]  Edmonton.
[30:31.900 --> 30:32.460]  Edmonton, yes.
[30:32.580 --> 30:33.800]  And the Vancouver one.
[30:34.300 --> 30:34.820]  And how were they?
[30:35.640 --> 30:37.060]  I hear the one in Vancouver is pretty good.
[30:37.280 --> 30:38.380]  The one in Vancouver was pretty good.
[30:38.460 --> 30:42.180]  That was actually one of my first ones and very laid back, you know.
[30:42.940 --> 30:44.100]  Well, Vancouver's laid back anyway.
[30:44.520 --> 30:44.600]  Oh, yeah.
[30:45.320 --> 30:47.740]  Food court, you know, right underneath the security camera.
[30:48.200 --> 30:49.020]  Everybody's, you know.
[30:49.540 --> 30:53.020]  And as Rob was saying, you know, the best way to counter a lot of these things was to make yourself
[31:00.100 --> 31:12.960]  A neat sort of counterpoint to that, though, is that one thing that I've heard a lot from people who are interested in coming to meetings is, you know, is it going to be weird if I introduce myself by my screen name?
[31:13.420 --> 31:23.000]  And, of course, this has been going on since the days before copious online photos, but even now, there are people who I've known for 13 years now, and I don't know what name is on their ID card, and that's okay.
[31:23.020 --> 31:23.680]  It's not an issue.
[31:30.320 --> 31:41.520]  Because although it might feel silly to go up to a bunch of strangers and go, hi, I'm Rob T. Firefly, or anything else, whatever strange handle you've come up with yourself, it's just a fact of the culture, and, you know, one is not required.
[31:41.700 --> 31:53.000]  There are lots of people who just use their normal names, but whatever you're comfortable introducing yourself as, you're not going to be pressured by a bunch of reasonable hackers to reveal your real name or anything like that.
[31:53.020 --> 31:54.280]  if you don't want to.
[31:54.740 --> 31:58.780]  Rob, what was the first... what year was the first 2600 meeting you went to in New York?
[31:59.060 --> 32:04.200]  The first, as I was saying earlier, the first one I went was in 97, right after Beyond HOPE.
[32:04.380 --> 32:04.600]  Okay.
[32:05.080 --> 32:10.000]  And, yeah, it's... I've missed a few since then, but not very many.
[32:11.260 --> 32:15.260]  What... who has been to the one in New York earlier than that?
[32:15.420 --> 32:16.320]  Earlier in 97?
[32:16.960 --> 32:20.000]  There's Leo, and... what days did you go?
[32:20.100 --> 32:20.720]  What the first year?
[32:20.840 --> 32:21.400]  Can you pass the mic over?
[32:21.660 --> 32:22.360]  I remember... oh.
[32:23.640 --> 32:28.500]  Well, I remember I went in the early days at City Corp, and I might think, did they have a spot before City Corp?
[32:28.500 --> 32:28.880]  I forget.
[32:29.940 --> 32:31.340]  I think it was in City Corp since...
[32:31.340 --> 32:32.120]  Yeah, it was in City Corp.
[32:32.180 --> 32:32.400]  Okay.
[32:32.540 --> 32:33.600]  I thought they might have been somewhere before.
[32:33.740 --> 32:39.420]  I went to some of the early City Corp ones and sort of stopped, but I did go to a few of them here and there, near the beginning.
[32:39.640 --> 32:43.020]  Leo, when did you start going to the one in... in...
[32:43.540 --> 32:45.540]  I think it was October 96.
[32:46.100 --> 32:46.380]  Okay.
[32:46.380 --> 32:47.600]  So, basically, a year before Rob.
[32:47.620 --> 32:48.060]  Those were for me.
[32:48.160 --> 32:49.540]  I think I went... oh, wait, no.
[32:49.640 --> 32:50.860]  I was there...
[32:50.860 --> 32:51.080]  Damn.
[32:51.240 --> 32:52.340]  When did that...
[32:52.340 --> 32:54.360]  I think late 80s, I went to...
[32:55.640 --> 32:55.920]  Yes.
[32:56.100 --> 32:57.320]  I went to one in...
[32:57.320 --> 32:57.980]  I went to...
[32:57.980 --> 33:02.480]  Because I live in Philly, I didn't get to New York that often, but I went to the one in the City Corp Center, and I think it was the late 80s.
[33:02.560 --> 33:05.200]  Emmanuel was there, and there was like 20-some other people.
[33:05.500 --> 33:06.520]  And we were...
[33:06.520 --> 33:06.580]  We were...
[33:06.580 --> 33:07.160]  We left...
[33:07.160 --> 33:08.200]  We used to go to some...
[33:08.560 --> 33:11.980]  The Russian tea room, I think, was to eat afterwards.
[33:11.980 --> 33:15.140]  And we passed these trash bags full of green bar...
[33:16.300 --> 33:16.780]  Printouts.
[33:18.380 --> 33:23.080]  And we opened them up, and there was all this, like, confidential data on customers right outside of City...
[33:23.580 --> 33:24.540]  City Corp...
[33:24.540 --> 33:24.980]  City Bank.
[33:25.500 --> 33:26.640]  And they were, like, right on the street.
[33:26.940 --> 33:29.660]  So, we had fun looking through the printouts, and...
[33:30.040 --> 33:31.060]  And that's...
[33:34.000 --> 33:40.020]  I guess to elaborate on what I was saying before, it was before the very first conference, so it was...
[33:40.020 --> 33:40.160]  Yes.
[33:40.380 --> 33:41.260]  Pre-94, sorry.
[33:41.820 --> 33:45.560]  You're probably talking, what, maybe 80, 89, 90, 91.
[33:45.700 --> 33:46.800]  I think it was 80...
[33:46.800 --> 33:47.360]  80, 89.
[33:47.620 --> 33:48.720]  Yeah, probably around there.
[33:49.060 --> 33:49.660]  And it was...
[33:49.660 --> 33:50.700]  It just felt very friendly.
[33:52.240 --> 33:54.200]  Not unlike today, but it was just a...
[33:54.200 --> 33:55.600]  It just had a different feel to it.
[33:55.680 --> 33:56.700]  It was before...
[33:56.700 --> 33:56.960]  Yeah.
[33:56.960 --> 33:58.920]  Before things got crazy, when it was...
[33:58.920 --> 34:01.680]  When the whole hacker subculture wasn't...
[34:01.680 --> 34:02.800]  When it was still...
[34:02.800 --> 34:04.360]  It was, like, a sub-sub-subculture.
[34:04.640 --> 34:04.660]  Yeah.
[34:04.660 --> 34:06.180]  No other people had not heard of the term hacker.
[34:07.100 --> 34:08.920]  And it just had a sort of different flavor.
[34:09.080 --> 34:09.440]  And it was not...
[34:09.440 --> 34:10.200]  Oh, and I brought a...
[34:10.200 --> 34:11.300]  There was a...
[34:11.300 --> 34:25.920]  I brought a big map of all the AT&T undersea telecom cables, and I had written an article in 2600 about how to contact AT&T Longlines to get your free AT&T Longlines undersea cable map.
[34:25.920 --> 34:26.900]  And it was neat.
[34:27.060 --> 34:27.920]  It was a really neat map.
[34:28.140 --> 34:28.880]  And so I brought one.
[34:28.960 --> 34:29.540]  I gave it to Emanuel.
[34:30.100 --> 34:31.240]  And I think it was...
[34:31.240 --> 34:32.480]  That might have been the first...
[34:32.480 --> 34:33.560]  No, it wasn't the first time I met him.
[34:33.640 --> 34:36.720]  But in any case, everybody else wanted the map, too.
[34:36.900 --> 34:39.580]  So we traded information, and people got their free maps.
[34:40.000 --> 34:42.400]  But AT&T Longlines is no more.
[34:43.280 --> 34:43.640]  Yeah.
[34:44.000 --> 34:50.580]  And going back again, it's really been fascinating to be part of the whole...
[34:50.580 --> 34:54.020]  Be part of the whole culture and watch hacker culture in general.
[34:54.020 --> 35:07.540]  And, of course, our local hacker culture, in particular, sort of change and grow and evolve over the years into something that's really affecting a large amount of good in the outside world.
[35:07.720 --> 35:09.800]  You know, we've now got the hacker spaces.
[35:10.040 --> 35:10.760]  We've now got...
[35:11.400 --> 35:12.860]  We've got things like this conference.
[35:12.860 --> 35:20.980]  And it's just more of, as I said, getting ourselves out there and, you know, proving to the world that, yes, we're nice people.
[35:21.240 --> 35:22.720]  We think we're doing right things.
[35:22.900 --> 35:23.860]  And we can...
[35:24.620 --> 35:26.140]  You know, like-minded people can get together.
[35:26.240 --> 35:28.740]  Not everyone at a 2600 meeting is going to go, let's start a hacker space.
[35:28.920 --> 35:31.460]  But the right people will, and a hacker space will get started.
[35:33.420 --> 35:33.820]  And...
[35:33.820 --> 35:36.700]  How have the demographics changed over the years?
[35:36.920 --> 35:39.300]  The demographics have changed significantly.
[35:39.580 --> 35:41.160]  They've always been sort of in chaos.
[35:41.340 --> 35:47.760]  But, like, going back to the early days, it was all sort of, okay, you know, where's the 2600 meeting in this food court?
[35:47.880 --> 35:49.080]  There's a bunch of guys in black t-shirts.
[35:50.180 --> 35:54.640]  And I won't say that doesn't exist anymore, but now there are some girls in black t-shirts as well.
[35:55.280 --> 35:55.640]  And...
[35:55.640 --> 36:01.200]  But there has been just such an explosion, of course, with the web explosion.
[36:01.620 --> 36:10.800]  And, you know, every time a new film came out for a while, we got an influx of people who wanted to be the next Angelina Jolie or whoever.
[36:11.340 --> 36:12.400]  Did she come to the meeting?
[36:12.560 --> 36:12.720]  Yeah.
[36:12.800 --> 36:13.800]  Yeah, she did.
[36:14.120 --> 36:18.700]  And the great thing about the meetings is that, okay, there are the people who...
[36:18.700 --> 36:21.640]  There are the people who are going to show up and, you know, expect it to be like Hollywood.
[36:21.940 --> 36:23.240]  But there will be...
[36:23.240 --> 36:24.120]  And they'll be disappointed.
[36:24.420 --> 36:29.260]  But there will be a significant amount of those people who then become interested in the real thing.
[36:30.520 --> 36:41.520]  And a lot of those people who were inspired in 1995 by kids running around on rollerblades are now, like, really long-time contributing members of the hacker community.
[36:43.440 --> 36:45.240]  And it's just a great thing.
[36:45.240 --> 36:52.420]  You know, however the interest gets knocked into your head, once you're there, it can be really a life-changing sort of experience.
[36:53.380 --> 36:56.620]  Something that we've done, we've gotten together outside of the meetings.
[36:56.620 --> 36:58.300]  And we agreed no shop talk.
[36:59.040 --> 37:02.820]  And we found, much to our dismay, we genuinely all like each other.
[37:04.520 --> 37:07.500]  And we said, oh, man, that means we're stuck together.
[37:07.500 --> 37:08.420]  What is this going to be?
[37:09.200 --> 37:11.000]  Well, all these years later, here we are.
[37:11.860 --> 37:11.980]  Yeah.
[37:12.160 --> 37:13.180]  And all sorts of random...
[37:13.180 --> 37:17.760]  Like, with our meeting in New York, all sorts of random traditions have come and gone, you know, for a while.
[37:18.040 --> 37:22.680]  I think it was for a number of months, we went to the Rocky Horror Picture Show after every single meeting.
[37:23.120 --> 37:23.440]  Yeah.
[37:23.440 --> 37:29.240]  And, you know, we've had, like, different restaurants and, you know, recurring parties and things like that that have come up.
[37:29.360 --> 37:31.920]  And it's just been... there are things going on.
[37:32.180 --> 37:42.060]  And, you know, meeting up with the people who throw these sorts of events because you both happen to be interested in going to a 2600 meeting is really a cool thing.
[37:42.540 --> 37:46.960]  And, you know, there have been relationships that have started and also ended at 2600 meetings.
[37:46.960 --> 37:47.520]  Yeah.
[37:47.920 --> 37:49.320]  Did they actually end at the meeting?
[37:49.840 --> 37:51.120]  I have seen one or two.
[37:51.320 --> 37:51.520]  Yeah.
[37:52.360 --> 37:55.020]  I can think of two off the top of my head.
[37:55.140 --> 37:55.320]  Yeah.
[37:56.400 --> 38:02.660]  Well, we've also turned into a drinking group with a hacking problem in those years.
[38:03.480 --> 38:03.860]  So...
[38:03.860 --> 38:04.860]  In some cases.
[38:05.060 --> 38:06.800]  But, like, there is also...
[38:07.220 --> 38:10.180]  It's just a matter of, like, it's not a structured thing.
[38:10.260 --> 38:15.260]  Okay, I'm going to go to the 2600 meeting and then we're going to do 2600 stuff and then I'm going to go home and get back to my regular life.
[38:15.260 --> 38:24.180]  No, it really affects everything you do from then on because you realize what's out there and it doesn't stop being out there after the first Friday of the month is over.
[38:24.840 --> 38:31.120]  And so all sorts of extracurriculars and things have grown and have really made a difference.
[38:31.400 --> 38:31.820]  Oh, yeah.
[38:32.080 --> 38:35.760]  I went to the point of social engineering my way out of work to come to the meetings.
[38:36.680 --> 38:44.120]  Years ago I was working in fiber optics and I told the people, I said, well, look, you know, I've got a sick parent that I'm taking care of.
[38:44.120 --> 38:48.820]  And I take him into the city the first day of the month, you know, on the first Friday.
[38:48.980 --> 38:52.180]  And he gets his blood treatment and, you know, we're not going to be back in time.
[38:52.180 --> 38:55.520]  So can I leave on the afternoons at about two, three o'clock?
[38:55.740 --> 38:57.120]  Oh, yeah, sure, no problem.
[38:57.620 --> 38:58.660]  They never found out.
[38:59.520 --> 39:00.460]  And it wasn't...
[39:00.460 --> 39:02.860]  You took them for blood treatment at the 2600 meeting?
[39:03.300 --> 39:04.020]  Well, yeah.
[39:04.740 --> 39:05.140]  Okay.
[39:05.460 --> 39:07.020]  I mean, you know, where else would you go for them?
[39:07.820 --> 39:10.820]  I mean, I would trust these people for the most part.
[39:12.380 --> 39:13.940]  So you call that social engineering?
[39:15.040 --> 39:17.760]  Well, yeah, because, you know, what was I going to do?
[39:17.860 --> 39:19.220]  Well, yeah, I'm going to go hang out with hackers.
[39:19.320 --> 39:19.920]  Can I leave it too?
[39:19.960 --> 39:20.460]  Is that cool?
[39:20.760 --> 39:29.680]  And so instead I told them, well, you know, I've got to go take dad into the city, which isn't that far cry from the truth, because he really did have congestive heart failure.
[39:30.720 --> 39:31.720]  He still does.
[39:31.900 --> 39:33.600]  But now that I'm not there...
[39:33.600 --> 39:34.600]  More of a creative truth.
[39:34.880 --> 39:35.420]  Yeah, exactly.
[39:35.420 --> 39:35.760]  Okay.
[39:36.640 --> 39:37.220]  I'll allow it.
[39:39.820 --> 39:41.340]  But we've got a little bit of time left.
[39:41.580 --> 39:47.600]  I wonder if there's anyone out there, if we can put the mic back in the stand over there, and people can come up and ask questions.
[39:48.040 --> 39:49.520]  Rob, can I ask you a question, ma'am?
[39:50.060 --> 39:52.420]  You can, while you're bringing the mic back to the stand.
[39:52.840 --> 39:53.140]  All right.
[39:53.520 --> 39:54.720]  I'll let somebody else do that.
[39:54.860 --> 39:58.040]  But can you tell us a story about Serena Altschul and MTV?
[39:58.220 --> 39:59.240]  Oh, my God.
[39:59.260 --> 39:59.620]  Please.
[39:59.960 --> 40:01.760]  Oh, you've hit a sore terminal there, buddy boy.
[40:01.980 --> 40:02.300]  All right.
[40:03.560 --> 40:12.020]  Serena Altschul, a lot of you might be familiar with the MTV fiasco, which had its own panel at, I think, H2K to explain what the...
[40:12.020 --> 40:12.720]  H2K2.
[40:13.000 --> 40:15.340]  H2K2, rather, to explain what the hell happened.
[40:15.680 --> 40:24.820]  And that was a case of MTV sending, who was then an MTV news reporter, Serena Altschul, to our meetings to kind of get a handle on what we were all about.
[40:25.120 --> 40:30.960]  And, of course, at that time, the Free Kevin movement was in full swing, and we needed all the help and exposure we could get.
[40:31.260 --> 40:37.280]  So a lot of us thought, okay, you know, it's MTV and MTV sucks, whatever, but maybe this will be a good thing for us.
[40:38.340 --> 40:40.820]  And so they came down to the meetings.
[40:40.960 --> 40:46.160]  And, of course, it is a public place, so any journalists are welcome to come down and do whatever.
[40:46.340 --> 40:50.700]  But it's always funny to watch when that happens and they come up.
[40:51.500 --> 41:04.940]  And hacker culture, I think, as a result of this, became a lot more media savvy, as a result of this particular fiasco and others like it, where, you know, if someone comes up and, you know, they're a journalist on the TV, and how would you like to be on the TV and talk to us?
[41:05.020 --> 41:12.860]  And, you know, people are not as immediately willing to go and make fools of themselves just because it's for TV.
[41:15.640 --> 41:18.800]  But Serena Altschul ended up interviewing a bunch of people, some on video.
[41:19.180 --> 41:22.520]  I declined to be on video, but I chatted with her a bit, and she seemed genuine enough.
[41:23.440 --> 41:24.440]  Seemed genuine enough.
[41:24.960 --> 41:40.440]  And, like, of course, several months later, we were presented with a documentary which was full of very stupid people saying stupid things and MTV taking it all seriously and turning it into this big scaremongering piece of crap.
[41:41.640 --> 41:50.660]  And the fact that that happened, kind of, I think that was sort of a turning point in hacker culture in general and our meeting in particular, growing up a little.
[41:51.860 --> 41:52.300]  And...
[41:52.300 --> 41:55.620]  What did they... what was... I never actually saw the MTV piece.
[41:55.760 --> 41:58.300]  So what was... what was so denigrating about it?
[41:58.500 --> 42:08.420]  Yeah, it was... it was by a few people who didn't even... well, of course, she interviewed and took a bunch of tape, but, of course, threw out everything.
[42:08.420 --> 42:13.260]  But the interesting bitch... the interesting bits, which were, of course, the interesting bitch.
[42:13.420 --> 42:14.160]  Right on.
[42:14.640 --> 42:15.420]  Dr. Freud.
[42:16.100 --> 42:32.120]  But the interesting bits which consisted of a few people who were sort of... they later said, and I think you can still get this talk from the H2K2 website, they explained that it was basically for the lulz and they were trolling.
[42:34.120 --> 42:39.540]  But they had, like, everything down to a scene of a couple of kids passing a floppy disk to each other in a dark alley at night.
[42:41.400 --> 42:41.800]  Yes?
[42:45.840 --> 42:52.140]  The plan was that they were going to reenact the whole movie Hackers for the whole MTV True Life thing.
[42:52.140 --> 42:58.100]  So they were going to hand over the disk to a guy running a skateboard while being dragged by a limo.
[42:58.280 --> 43:02.500]  But what happened is they didn't realize that MTV True Life is only half an hour long.
[43:02.720 --> 43:09.220]  And so what happened is it made no sense in the edited version and nobody's ever seen the uncut, unedited version.
[43:10.480 --> 43:11.780]  Yeah, pretty much.
[43:11.960 --> 43:18.800]  But that really affected how the hacker community viewed the media at that point.
[43:18.960 --> 43:23.220]  But as far as that relates to 2600 meetings, it's an example of...
[43:23.220 --> 43:28.180]  We've had sort of media and journalists and things come to our meetings and had it turn out well.
[43:29.100 --> 43:41.040]  There was a brilliant Norwegian film student named, I think it was Stig Lenart Sorensen, who made a film called New York City Hackers, which is somewhere out there on his website.
[43:41.320 --> 43:45.720]  And that was filmed at our meetings and it was a pretty decent sort of short film documentary.
[43:46.360 --> 43:54.500]  We've had a Japanese business action novelist, whose name I don't care to try and pronounce, show up.
[43:54.620 --> 44:01.280]  And all these different people, all these different mainstream people who are interested in what's really going on and who we're all too happy of.
[44:01.340 --> 44:06.300]  Not everyone is willing to be on camera, but we're all too happy to try and educate people on what we're really all about.
[44:06.800 --> 44:08.680]  And yeah, I think we have a couple of questions.
[44:08.840 --> 44:10.080]  So if you'd like to go, sir.
[44:10.260 --> 44:10.440]  Yeah.
[44:10.560 --> 44:13.660]  Hey, I subscribe to the magazine.
[44:13.820 --> 44:16.380]  I've been coming to HOPE since I think 2002.
[44:17.140 --> 44:20.120]  But I work, I have family, you know, obligations and stuff.
[44:20.280 --> 44:27.480]  And you know, you talked about, Gonzo talked about, you know, while I had to socially engineer myself to get out of work, you know, and I mean, of course I can't do that.
[44:27.640 --> 44:29.220]  So for me, it's a conflict.
[44:29.260 --> 44:36.880]  And, you know, I guess I put myself as part of the, what I call the silent majority of geeks and nerds.
[44:36.960 --> 44:41.560]  I sit on the IRC and that's it because I don't have time, you know, because I got a wife and kids and everything.
[44:41.560 --> 44:48.520]  So what do you recommend for people such as myself where I just can't make the time so, you know, to interact with that?
[44:48.600 --> 44:53.060]  Of course, I mean, you know, we are all, I think all of us are leaders in our own respective areas and zones.
[44:53.200 --> 44:58.340]  So it's great to interact with the folks, but I just can't, you know, make the time to do that.
[44:58.440 --> 45:00.560]  And so I was just curious what your thoughts were on that.
[45:00.760 --> 45:04.540]  I don't think Gonzo has the copyright on his friend with a blood transfusion story.
[45:05.700 --> 45:06.020]  No.
[45:06.020 --> 45:10.000]  No, but actually I would say in a case like that, get together on the weekends.
[45:10.720 --> 45:17.720]  Yeah, the reason the 2600 meeting is a specific day is basically for, as we were saying before, you could go anywhere and find the meeting.
[45:19.140 --> 45:23.080]  But there have been, I don't know if there have been any cases where it's been on a different day.
[45:23.220 --> 45:27.140]  I mean, there are temporary cases where like it's on a holiday or something, so we have it the next week.
[45:29.020 --> 45:33.840]  But it's really, I think that's one of the few pieces of standardization that have applied.
[45:33.840 --> 45:39.720]  But as far as like people who work in the day, some people will start the meeting.
[45:39.900 --> 45:43.900]  And, of course, I think the time, the official time it starts is what, 5 p.m.?
[45:43.900 --> 45:44.240]  Yeah.
[45:44.360 --> 45:50.760]  But, you know, ours will last until people start leaving the food court at around 8 or 9-ish.
[45:52.440 --> 45:55.620]  And, you know, those in other places may get going later.
[45:55.720 --> 45:56.460]  They may start later.
[45:56.620 --> 45:58.180]  They, you know, they may end later.
[45:58.360 --> 46:03.820]  And so that, in that sense, the actual time it starts can be adjustable to what's best for everyone.
[46:03.820 --> 46:16.600]  I remember that back in the late 80s, early 90s, a lot of the ad, a lot of the little ads in back at 2600 for the meetings, we would put the pay phone numbers for where the meeting.
[46:16.780 --> 46:17.780]  Did you already talk about this?
[46:17.900 --> 46:18.500]  Did I miss that part?
[46:18.620 --> 46:18.760]  No, no, no.
[46:19.000 --> 46:19.080]  Oh, okay.
[46:19.380 --> 46:21.860]  Yeah, we'd put, like at 32 station, I'd put pay phone numbers.
[46:21.960 --> 46:22.660]  But that wasn't the first minute.
[46:22.720 --> 46:24.500]  I think the New York meeting started, had pay phone numbers.
[46:25.120 --> 46:30.100]  Because it was before most people even had email accounts, late 80s, early days.
[46:30.180 --> 46:31.900]  Anyway, so you would, you'd call people.
[46:31.900 --> 46:34.760]  But the problem was, in other time zones, it wasn't the same time.
[46:34.860 --> 46:39.420]  But you just call, you could call later or earlier, depending on where you were calling in the world or country.
[46:39.800 --> 46:41.460]  And that was neat.
[46:41.580 --> 46:55.340]  Because you could, we would have people like, at rows of pay phones, calling, sometimes with red boxes, to other meetings that were in that same time zone that could have been hundreds of thousand miles away.
[46:55.660 --> 46:58.100]  And just sort of doing some networking between meetings.
[46:58.200 --> 46:59.200]  Hey, what's going on at your meeting?
[47:00.280 --> 47:03.080]  And, you know, most people didn't have portable cell phones yet then, either.
[47:03.460 --> 47:04.960]  So, it was interesting.
[47:05.320 --> 47:12.660]  Also, back to the question in regard to, if you don't have time to go to a meeting and you have kids, depending on their age group, there's lock picking.
[47:13.340 --> 47:17.800]  Earlier today, I saw some kids with adult supervision, learning slaughtering.
[47:18.940 --> 47:24.460]  So, if you have time to hang out with kids but can't go to a meeting, you can bring that kind of education into the home.
[47:24.460 --> 47:25.500]  And it's a lot of fun.
[47:25.700 --> 47:27.900]  And there are also people who bring their kids to the meetings.
[47:28.160 --> 47:29.960]  And, you know, sometimes the parents are involved.
[47:30.080 --> 47:33.460]  Sometimes the parents sit on the side and just watch their crazy kid play with his computer friends.
[47:33.820 --> 47:39.720]  But, it really is like another fact of having them in public places.
[47:40.300 --> 47:41.300]  School kids can go.
[47:42.380 --> 47:45.420]  You know, there's really no discrimination.
[47:45.420 --> 47:45.980]  Yes, sir.
[47:46.600 --> 47:46.740]  Yeah.
[47:47.060 --> 47:47.460]  Oh, wow.
[47:48.600 --> 47:49.460]  Yeah, you guys.
[47:49.740 --> 47:50.600]  I'm Vermont.
[47:51.240 --> 47:51.500]  Hello.
[47:51.780 --> 47:52.880]  You probably know me.
[47:54.580 --> 47:56.360]  Have you guys ever had problems?
[47:56.360 --> 47:58.300]  I know we're talking about the feds and everything.
[47:58.640 --> 48:00.780]  There's this one guy in Citigroup.
[48:01.660 --> 48:02.840]  It was a while ago.
[48:03.020 --> 48:05.380]  He just really freaked me out.
[48:05.440 --> 48:06.620]  It was only my second meeting.
[48:06.620 --> 48:15.720]  And the reason I started using a handle was because this guy, like, just second meeting.
[48:15.880 --> 48:17.620]  And I was like, I didn't even know what I was getting into.
[48:17.800 --> 48:19.580]  And this guy comes up and just starts asking.
[48:19.780 --> 48:23.300]  He's like, so, I see you're reading the magazine.
[48:23.500 --> 48:26.900]  And I'm like, never, like, I don't know.
[48:26.980 --> 48:27.640]  It was weird.
[48:27.780 --> 48:33.680]  Anyway, I swear this same guy today came up to me at my work.
[48:33.680 --> 48:34.780]  I had to miss part of HOPE.
[48:35.880 --> 48:42.140]  I don't really forget faces, but I'm pretty sure it's the same guy, like, months and months later.
[48:42.540 --> 48:48.360]  Where I work and starts asking the other questions and stuff about, like, periodicals that I'm reading.
[48:48.700 --> 48:49.000]  Not...
[48:49.000 --> 48:51.240]  I mean, he didn't say anything about 2600, but...
[48:51.860 --> 48:52.660]  I don't know.
[48:52.800 --> 48:53.920]  I think...
[48:53.920 --> 48:57.640]  Have you guys ever had any problems with, like, feds, like...
[48:57.640 --> 48:58.380]  Like...
[48:58.380 --> 48:59.300]  Following us around?
[48:59.540 --> 48:59.740]  Yeah.
[48:59.740 --> 49:00.220]  Oh, yeah.
[49:01.300 --> 49:01.700]  Where...
[49:01.700 --> 49:03.420]  I used to live out in New Jersey.
[49:03.640 --> 49:04.920]  I was out in North Jersey.
[49:06.160 --> 49:08.820]  We'd always stop in Morristown on the way in.
[49:09.220 --> 49:13.380]  Now, for those of you who don't know Morristown, right up the hill is Headquarters Plaza.
[49:13.820 --> 49:15.440]  And we've got the feds in there.
[49:16.340 --> 49:17.600]  It would never fail.
[49:17.600 --> 49:23.700]  Every time I'd go in, there was the one guy with the suit, the briefcase, and acting like there was nothing wrong.
[49:23.900 --> 49:26.700]  But a little while later that night, there he is.
[49:26.780 --> 49:28.780]  He's sitting down there in the food court with us.
[49:29.100 --> 49:31.160]  He's up in Barnes & Noble watching us.
[49:31.420 --> 49:32.520]  And it went on for a while.
[49:33.740 --> 49:36.600]  So, and I'm wondering what he's doing now, because I don't live up there anymore, so...
[49:37.340 --> 49:37.700]  Yeah.
[49:37.880 --> 49:38.880]  Maybe he's out of work now.
[49:38.900 --> 49:39.300]  I don't know.
[49:39.680 --> 49:41.940]  As I was saying, these people are fun to...
[49:41.940 --> 49:50.000]  Once you've got a handle on people like this who are sort of taking an interest but are not interested in being part of the meeting, you know, just give them a little wave.
[49:50.580 --> 49:53.180]  Well, I swear, I'm only mildly paranoid.
[49:53.400 --> 49:53.560]  Yeah.
[49:53.880 --> 49:54.260]  No, of course.
[49:54.700 --> 49:56.100]  Like a necessary amount.
[49:56.100 --> 50:08.520]  That's also another point of having these things out in public rather than like at somebody's house where, you know, as with anything else in public, you can use your judgment on things like who you talk to and what you tell them.
[50:10.000 --> 50:13.000]  Also, was it actually illegal to take pictures of these people?
[50:13.700 --> 50:16.760]  Well, if you're in a public place, you're allowed to take pictures in public.
[50:17.420 --> 50:17.940]  I mean, I know you're not lawyers.
[50:17.940 --> 50:18.420]  I'm no lawyer.
[50:18.560 --> 50:21.500]  And of course, the laws may vary state by state or place by place.
[50:21.600 --> 50:26.760]  But as far as I know around here, if you're in a public place, you don't have expectation of privacy and you're open to being photographed.
[50:27.840 --> 50:28.000]  Yes?
[50:28.080 --> 50:28.740]  No, it's not illegal.
[50:28.960 --> 50:29.100]  Yeah.
[50:29.840 --> 50:31.040]  But they will get even anyway.
[50:32.060 --> 50:33.000]  We're going back and forth.
[50:33.540 --> 50:34.720]  Well, he can go.
[50:34.780 --> 50:35.500]  I can wait a little bit.
[50:35.800 --> 50:36.080]  Okay.
[50:36.080 --> 50:38.500]  Well, then you can get online behind him and we can keep one line going.
[50:38.540 --> 50:39.420]  I'll probably cut off, but whatever.
[50:39.620 --> 50:39.920]  Yes, sir.
[50:40.240 --> 50:43.240]  You mentioned some traditions that 2600 had.
[50:43.380 --> 50:45.640]  I just wanted to hear a few more of them.
[50:47.060 --> 50:47.420]  Okay.
[50:48.320 --> 50:54.440]  For a little while after our meetings, there was a loft out in Brooklyn that would throw parties.
[50:54.740 --> 50:56.300]  They were known as the Hacker Halfway House.
[50:57.880 --> 50:59.460]  And those, you know, were loft parties.
[50:59.560 --> 51:04.180]  But of course, by then, you know, the official quote unquote event has ended.
[51:04.380 --> 51:08.340]  And like I said, you know, you got to use your judgment when someone invites you to their house.
[51:09.200 --> 51:11.660]  But, you know, we were mostly...
[51:11.660 --> 51:14.360]  We were sort of a loosely knit group and we would go do that.
[51:14.520 --> 51:17.680]  Or, you know, we've ended up at different restaurants over the years.
[51:17.880 --> 51:18.360]  Restaurants have...
[51:19.920 --> 51:30.000]  When we've gone out to dinner after the meetings, there have been the whole spectrum of receptions where like we used to go to some Chinese restaurant that would give us the whole top floor of the place because, you know, we were a big group and we tipped well.
[51:30.860 --> 51:37.260]  But then there have been restaurants that have gotten sick of us and like made the food worse and worse and the service worse and worse until we picked another place.
[51:39.480 --> 51:47.100]  But as far as other things go, like just all sorts of strange little...
[51:47.100 --> 51:50.880]  Like there have been people who have gotten together outside of the meetings to...
[51:50.880 --> 52:01.740]  You know, back in the days of trashing and things like that, people would get together for field trips or like people have gotten together and toured a central office or things like that.
[52:02.660 --> 52:03.920]  And, you know, field trips.
[52:04.820 --> 52:05.380]  Yes, there.
[52:05.740 --> 52:06.140]  Hello.
[52:06.580 --> 52:08.560]  For everyone else out there, I'm Sidepocket.
[52:08.700 --> 52:11.280]  I hang around a lot in the New York 2600 meetings and...
[52:11.280 --> 52:11.860]  Great talk, by the way.
[52:12.780 --> 52:24.140]  My focus is that it's very interesting, which I think is important that you say, the term hacker culture, because I know that there's a bunch of people who actually refer to the hacker as the hacker scene.
[52:24.440 --> 52:25.800]  And I think they're actually like...
[52:25.800 --> 52:28.620]  The perception and definition is like two completely different things.
[52:28.760 --> 52:39.220]  And so my main conflict is like, you know, that sort of balance where you have people and you want it to be more open, but then you have the thing where you have those people who they feel like they're in their niche.
[52:39.320 --> 52:40.020]  They like their niche.
[52:40.120 --> 52:40.860]  They see it spanning.
[52:41.060 --> 52:42.280]  It's not becoming a niche anymore.
[52:42.700 --> 52:45.000]  You know, they're kind of protective of it.
[52:45.180 --> 52:47.540]  For a quick story example, at New York 2600...
[52:47.540 --> 52:49.120]  Wow, I can't believe it's been f*cking three years.
[52:49.260 --> 52:51.760]  But when I showed up, you guys were nice.
[52:51.820 --> 52:53.060]  Some people here were nice.
[52:53.200 --> 52:56.160]  But there was people who were really good people, but they just weren't talking to each other.
[52:56.320 --> 52:59.160]  Because, you know, everyone thought they were their own thing and they all got in their own clicks.
[52:59.460 --> 53:02.540]  And when I saw that, that kind of disturbed me because I saw the same type of things online.
[53:03.040 --> 53:08.080]  So I started rearranging all the tables and the chairs so that people would be faced with each other.
[53:08.200 --> 53:10.060]  And I actually had a group of people like, what the hell are you doing?
[53:10.180 --> 53:11.400]  And I'm like, oh, I'm putting it together.
[53:11.560 --> 53:14.340]  And it's like, you know, if they want to talk to us, they can bring their own damn chairs up.
[53:14.400 --> 53:15.500]  But the thing is, no one was.
[53:15.620 --> 53:16.480]  So that's why I did it.
[53:16.580 --> 53:20.020]  And people actually did start talking to each other and people started form projects and stuff.
[53:20.200 --> 53:22.960]  And I think that's like a very important thing of like being together.
[53:23.200 --> 53:24.460]  So I was just curious about...
[53:24.460 --> 53:24.720]  Yeah.
[53:24.900 --> 53:25.740]  And I think...
[53:25.740 --> 53:26.260]  I'm sorry.
[53:26.460 --> 53:28.240]  I think that's a very good point.
[53:28.240 --> 53:34.080]  And of course, like any community has its adolescence or whatever.
[53:34.520 --> 53:35.760]  There have been cases.
[53:35.760 --> 53:39.960]  I know at our meeting, and I'm not going to call anyone out on it because some people are good people.
[53:40.180 --> 53:46.100]  But there have been cases of like clicks developing and people just sort of, oh, we're the cool table and, you know, whatever.
[53:46.280 --> 53:57.300]  But the real elitist sort of, you know, we're cooler than you, we're better than you type of people don't tend to actually last long at the meetings because it's not the...
[53:57.300 --> 53:59.020]  it's just not the right place for them.
[53:59.100 --> 53:59.820]  And they eventually...
[53:59.820 --> 54:04.340]  they eventually get wind of that when just because they don't want to talk to anyone, no one's talking to them.
[54:06.100 --> 54:07.300]  So it's really...
[54:07.880 --> 54:09.500]  the most successful...
[54:09.500 --> 54:16.180]  like any community, now we've been going a while, we've seen it sort of ebb and flow and go through its active and slow periods and things.
[54:16.540 --> 54:21.580]  But like anything else, it's had its own growing to do.
[54:21.900 --> 54:26.900]  And, you know, once it does it, it finds the best direction like any other sort of evolution.
[54:26.900 --> 54:28.840]  It finds the best direction and goes in it.
[54:29.460 --> 54:36.920]  And we've found that our meetings have really grown into sort of a really inclusive, you know, friendly, open culture.
[54:37.160 --> 54:48.940]  And, you know, anyone who wants to attend their local meeting or perhaps start one where none exists, it's very easy to do so and it can be ultimately extremely rewarding.
[54:49.560 --> 54:55.640]  And I would just like to encourage all of you out there to see what's going on in your local scenes or maybe make something happen in your local scenes.
[54:57.620 --> 55:00.000]  And I think we're just about out of time.
[55:00.080 --> 55:01.920]  So I'd like to thank you all for coming.
[55:02.160 --> 55:07.200]  And please, if you're interested, 2600.com slash meetings.
[55:07.600 --> 55:08.200]  Thank you very much.
[55:08.200 --> 55:08.260]  Thank you very much.