[00:00.000 --> 00:01.620]  on teaching civil liberties government.
[00:06.500 --> 00:06.980]  Thanks.
[00:07.200 --> 00:09.140]  Thanks for the introduction, Gus.
[00:09.360 --> 00:10.740]  It's my pleasure to be here today.
[00:10.960 --> 00:32.140]  I think this is an important subject because the more we can get into the minds of the people who really control and influence our lives in terms of military leaders, governmental leaders, and help them understand the importance of privacy and civil liberties and inform their calculus when they make decisions,
[00:32.760 --> 00:33.700]  I think we all win.
[00:33.900 --> 00:35.540]  So that's what this talk is about.
[00:35.780 --> 00:37.980]  A little about some of the tools available.
[00:38.060 --> 00:47.480]  If you had the opportunity, and there are opportunities out there to help teach people inside those communities, what would you teach them?
[00:49.880 --> 00:50.920]  Pardon me, the notes.
[00:51.180 --> 00:52.680]  It turned into night pretty quickly.
[00:54.460 --> 01:00.000]  And we'll also talk about the tools that are available for doing that.
[01:00.320 --> 01:03.000]  So I have to add the mandatory disclaimer.
[01:03.680 --> 01:07.680]  And one, I understand no one reads them, but I'm here as a free citizen.
[01:08.760 --> 01:11.640]  And these opinions are my own, not that of my employer.
[01:12.080 --> 01:18.780]  And personally, I think nothing better evokes faceless bureaucracy than that of Pink Floyd's The Wall, the scene from it.
[01:19.820 --> 01:22.400]  So this is my third time speaking at HOPE.
[01:22.740 --> 01:32.220]  The first time was on malicious interfaces, how interfaces, particularly on the web, are designed not to help us, but to actually trick us and harm us in a variety of ways.
[01:32.840 --> 01:40.980]  Last HOPE we did, or HOPE 9, Lisa Shea and I came down from West Point and gave a talk on countermeasures against surveillance.
[01:41.340 --> 01:43.400]  So I think that was a timely subject.
[01:44.960 --> 01:57.420]  And then we were asked this year to come back and talk about some of the things that we've been doing inside and where it could go, how it could scale up in terms of teaching inside the military, the governments, really around the world.
[01:59.200 --> 02:08.380]  A key aspect of this, I think, is your personal awakening to the importance of privacy and civil liberties.
[02:08.820 --> 02:14.580]  So there's some people in the room probably haven't gone too far down that path, but there are others.
[02:14.760 --> 02:16.280]  And I'd ask you to think about this.
[02:17.160 --> 02:18.280]  What was the event?
[02:18.420 --> 02:19.520]  What was the series of events?
[02:19.520 --> 02:22.100]  Was it a friend who helped educate you?
[02:22.300 --> 02:27.100]  Was it your own personal just reading the news and suspicion that something's going on?
[02:27.180 --> 02:28.820]  But what transformed you?
[02:28.920 --> 02:37.600]  What raised your awareness of the importance of privacy and civil liberties to the point that you want to sit in this room and learn more?
[02:37.760 --> 02:39.960]  You want to actually more than that, just sit in a room.
[02:40.100 --> 02:41.300]  You want to go out there and make a difference.
[02:41.300 --> 02:46.400]  For me, I can point to largely DEFCON 9, which was about 13 years ago.
[02:46.700 --> 02:51.380]  I went there and I think I had kind of this innate kind of libertarian world view.
[02:51.640 --> 02:57.680]  But I went there and I realized that, you know, why are they passing this hat around for the EFF, right?
[02:57.740 --> 02:58.640]  Who is this EFF?
[02:58.740 --> 03:03.600]  And I look and go, oh, gosh, that all makes sense when I took a look at what they were talking about.
[03:04.520 --> 03:11.280]  And I started paying attention and grew from there to the point where I, you know, really, it transformed me personally.
[03:11.300 --> 03:18.820]  where I took this on as a, really, as a cause in a research area and, you know, advocacy area to try and get out there and make a difference.
[03:19.100 --> 03:27.840]  So that in the last 13 years, let's see, have done a lot of work in this space trying to go out and make a difference.
[03:28.500 --> 03:31.720]  And this all is available online for those that are interested.
[03:32.040 --> 03:37.940]  And I think it's important because each of us, the more you embrace this, the more you want to make a difference.
[03:38.600 --> 03:44.920]  And having advocates that try and make a difference both inside the system and outside the system is very important.
[03:45.300 --> 03:48.620]  And particularly inside the system, you're part of that tribe.
[03:48.840 --> 03:56.740]  And you can, you know how that tribe thinks, you know how to communicate these ideas and principles in a way that might be more effective than just trying to do it from the outside in.
[03:58.120 --> 03:59.960]  So some framing questions.
[04:01.920 --> 04:06.540]  Because the answer to this isn't necessarily evident to some people, right?
[04:08.060 --> 04:10.580]  I would argue, yes, it is possible.
[04:10.820 --> 04:12.940]  But if we're not careful, we can destroy it.
[04:14.040 --> 04:22.640]  And helping, when we're making decisions, we have to have people that are thinking about both sides of the various aspects of this.
[04:22.640 --> 04:26.660]  So we don't destroy the democracy in an attempt to protect it.
[04:28.140 --> 04:32.620]  And we'll get back to this at the end, but I wanted to just kind of list it up front.
[04:33.700 --> 04:44.220]  If you had the access to people, senior leaders, mid-career leaders, junior people in the government or the military, what would you teach them?
[04:44.220 --> 04:48.480]  And we'll talk a little bit of, you know, my perspective on their perspective.
[04:48.840 --> 04:51.740]  Kind of how, what's a common view of the world.
[04:53.100 --> 05:00.920]  But at the end, we're going to, I hope to go to Q&A and then have a bit of discussion on ideas that you might have toward this end.
[05:02.600 --> 05:13.600]  Ultimately, I think the objective would be helping encourage people to have this mental model, this mental framework to take privacy and civil liberties into account when making decisions.
[05:13.600 --> 05:18.640]  Often security decisions because of the tension between security and privacy.
[05:18.800 --> 05:21.060]  And it can't be out of a sense of compliance.
[05:21.360 --> 05:22.280]  You know, compliance.
[05:22.480 --> 05:23.920]  Like we have to do this thing.
[05:24.080 --> 05:25.300]  That never works well.
[05:25.440 --> 05:27.520]  And people generally do the minimum standard.
[05:28.220 --> 05:31.320]  But from a true appreciation where they get it.
[05:33.200 --> 05:38.200]  Because a lot of decisions, for a variety of reasons, either time, right?
[05:38.200 --> 05:41.260]  Decisions need to be made very quickly.
[05:41.980 --> 05:45.800]  Or because of classification or other forms of sensitivity.
[05:46.200 --> 05:47.880]  A lot of decisions aren't transparent.
[05:48.080 --> 05:52.020]  Or they're made in rooms that we'll never have access to.
[05:52.460 --> 05:56.480]  But the more that these ideas permeate various decision makers.
[05:56.640 --> 06:02.420]  You've heard probably the phrase, when security decisions are being made, it's good to have a hacker in the room.
[06:02.420 --> 06:03.960]  And I agree.
[06:04.160 --> 06:08.060]  Because I've been in rooms where there wasn't one, or it was just me.
[06:08.480 --> 06:14.120]  And people who really don't know how the Internet worked were making very important decisions about it.
[06:14.260 --> 06:19.500]  So the more that we can have people who are informed, the more likely they will be in the room.
[06:19.500 --> 06:25.280]  And I also think there's a trend, I mean, in the community, in this community.
[06:26.200 --> 06:31.580]  It's been, this movement, this, you know, the hacking renaissance that we're in now.
[06:32.140 --> 06:36.740]  Has, early on, it was a bunch of young people, arguably, right?
[06:36.820 --> 06:37.820]  I mean, there's a lot of young people.
[06:37.940 --> 06:41.100]  And there's, you know, obviously more senior folks, the people as well.
[06:41.280 --> 06:46.480]  But that generation is now rising to prominence, where they're C-level executives and corporations.
[06:47.720 --> 06:49.400]  They're colonels in the army.
[06:49.620 --> 06:53.760]  They're various, they're in positions where they can influence things now.
[06:53.960 --> 06:57.080]  And also groom the next generation coming up.
[06:57.300 --> 07:00.540]  So, I think that gives hope for the future.
[07:02.020 --> 07:09.120]  Now, I gave a whole talk on this at DEFCON about the instrumented world that we're, increasingly instrumented world that we're living in.
[07:09.340 --> 07:14.380]  And I've boiled it down to one slide because it's a bit like preaching to the choir here.
[07:14.380 --> 07:24.940]  But I think it's common knowledge that more and more sensors, more and more aspects of our daily life are being surveilled upon.
[07:25.300 --> 07:26.540]  Sometimes with our willingness.
[07:26.920 --> 07:30.840]  You know, we have a fitness wristband that tracks our day-to-day activity.
[07:31.280 --> 07:35.900]  But every aspect, and increasingly so, and it's not showing any signs of slowing down.
[07:35.900 --> 07:37.340]  If anything, it's speeding up.
[07:37.500 --> 07:42.680]  From satellites in space to red light cameras to license plate readers.
[07:43.580 --> 07:45.340]  And it was once moderated.
[07:45.380 --> 07:49.960]  These type activities were once moderated by the human workload required.
[07:50.280 --> 07:53.280]  Well, that's going away with ubiquitous network sensing.
[07:53.540 --> 07:56.160]  And that's why this is important.
[07:59.140 --> 08:01.100]  We are living in a historic time.
[08:01.100 --> 08:09.240]  If you'd asked me two years ago, I would have told you that the attention span of the general public was about...
[08:09.620 --> 08:13.080]  They didn't largely care about privacy or security.
[08:13.660 --> 08:24.920]  And events, although significant, like the AOL search query disclosure of 2006 or WikiLeaks, those got people's attention for a period of time.
[08:24.920 --> 08:25.880]  But then they kind of faded.
[08:26.020 --> 08:30.480]  They're well-known in this community, but they faded rapidly.
[08:30.760 --> 08:36.620]  But now, we're really in a historic time where we have everyone's attention.
[08:37.000 --> 08:42.920]  When you think of your parents, they're probably talking, or parents or grandparents, and they're talking to you about privacy.
[08:43.840 --> 08:46.640]  You know that something has changed.
[08:47.080 --> 08:52.540]  And I don't know when it'll end, but we're in a unique point in history where we have everyone's attention.
[08:52.540 --> 08:55.720]  And that's a good point to maybe push for progress.
[08:58.660 --> 09:01.800]  A key aspect of this is understanding different perspectives.
[09:02.140 --> 09:09.160]  If you're trying to teach, say, law enforcement or military, they tend to view the world in terms of security.
[09:09.160 --> 09:10.000]  That's their job.
[09:10.120 --> 09:10.860]  That's what they do.
[09:11.020 --> 09:15.100]  They're the guard dog that wants to protect.
[09:15.740 --> 09:21.960]  You have advocacy groups such as the EFF or advocates in general that are very much aware of...
[09:23.660 --> 09:27.760]  The activities going on that the average person is unaware of.
[09:28.200 --> 09:33.180]  And also, they understand the legal framework, the legal challenges that are in play.
[09:33.700 --> 09:37.140]  Policy makers are busy people.
[09:37.440 --> 09:38.960]  And they're fighting in a...
[09:38.960 --> 09:48.040]  They're working in large governmental systems, often amidst checks and balances that prevent rapid change.
[09:48.600 --> 09:53.940]  From my experience, and I haven't had too much engagement with senior policy makers, but I have met some.
[09:54.420 --> 09:56.540]  And the ones I found that, despite what I...
[09:56.540 --> 10:01.960]  Which you kind of get the sense from on the press, from the press, is that they're actually trying to do a good job.
[10:02.360 --> 10:08.220]  They have limited ability to do it, but they were actively listening and trying to figure out ways ahead.
[10:08.220 --> 10:12.140]  They like solutions that are actionable, something they can do.
[10:12.280 --> 10:15.280]  Not just kind of like soft, you know, general ideas.
[10:15.500 --> 10:17.980]  They want something that they can turn into a decision.
[10:19.160 --> 10:20.540]  Industry, in general.
[10:20.640 --> 10:22.220]  We're drawing broad generalities here.
[10:23.320 --> 10:26.360]  Very much concerned about the bottom line.
[10:26.740 --> 10:36.020]  And how does this impact, you know, the revenue coming into the company, the reputation of the company, legal compliance.
[10:36.020 --> 10:43.140]  And then your average citizen, who I would argue just go about their day-to-day lives conducting business.
[10:43.820 --> 10:46.100]  And rarely do they think of privacy.
[10:46.100 --> 10:49.140]  Although, now I think it's on their radar.
[10:50.920 --> 11:01.220]  I want to dig down a little deeply because we're talking specifically about training or educating government or the military, governments or militaries.
[11:01.220 --> 11:06.160]  And again, these are just broad swath generalizations in my personal opinion.
[11:06.460 --> 11:09.000]  But I think they're on track.
[11:09.640 --> 11:16.800]  There's a common sense of patriotism amongst these communities to be called a patriot is a high compliment.
[11:17.760 --> 11:20.380]  They're very much aware of the threat.
[11:20.760 --> 11:24.920]  Threat because they classified information, top secret feeds.
[11:24.920 --> 11:31.220]  They're seeing abuse... they're seeing the badness that is in the world on a day-to-day basis.
[11:31.600 --> 11:34.560]  And things that usually do not make the press.
[11:36.160 --> 11:40.080]  They're very focused on trying to stop bad things from happening again.
[11:40.440 --> 11:42.680]  So this is that security focus, right?
[11:42.800 --> 11:45.280]  This is largely security, security, security.
[11:47.180 --> 11:54.180]  They have an inability to speak because once you get access to a clearance, you sign a non-disclosure agreement.
[11:54.760 --> 11:58.300]  And rarely will... are they allowed to speak out loud.
[11:58.520 --> 12:05.480]  And there's been posters out there and... it's rigid... frankly rigid enforcement to enact this.
[12:06.900 --> 12:08.140]  And this is key.
[12:08.800 --> 12:15.040]  I sense that this general trust that what... what is being built won't be abused.
[12:15.180 --> 12:19.240]  And when I say what is being built, you can think about various security systems, large and small.
[12:19.860 --> 12:22.620]  There's a trust out there that it won't be abused.
[12:23.160 --> 12:25.920]  And some would argue that that could be a naive trust.
[12:27.020 --> 12:29.380]  Oh, and just so you know what this picture is.
[12:29.540 --> 12:35.680]  And when you do repelling, this is kind of a... you know, in industry when they have the fall backward and your co-worker will catch you.
[12:35.680 --> 12:39.060]  The military equivalent is in repelling.
[12:39.300 --> 12:41.520]  The person on the ground is the belay man.
[12:41.940 --> 12:44.820]  So you're supposed to let go of the rope and fall.
[12:45.220 --> 12:47.940]  And the belay man, if they pull on the rope, you'll stop.
[12:48.260 --> 12:49.920]  If you don't, you'll hit the ground.
[12:49.960 --> 12:53.140]  So that's what... what's going on here is a trust exercise.
[12:54.600 --> 13:02.540]  They also feel a... that their hands are tied because they don't have the information they need to protect.
[13:02.540 --> 13:06.000]  And I think this is a great quote.
[13:06.100 --> 13:07.960]  Their hands are tied by legal authorities.
[13:08.580 --> 13:12.320]  And I'll just read it because this is... may hit an MP3 one day.
[13:12.920 --> 13:23.540]  If DOD defended the land domain in the same manner as cyberspace, a Russian land invasion of New Jersey would have to be fought by U.S. citizens and commercial entities with whatever weapons they possess.
[13:24.040 --> 13:26.740]  DOD would only defend Fort Monmouth and Fort Dix.
[13:28.320 --> 13:35.740]  So that is... that is kind of... what I'm trying to do is expose you to the mindset of the... of the audience.
[13:35.740 --> 13:37.320]  The students, what they might be.
[13:38.080 --> 13:40.600]  And again, this overarching desire to protect.
[13:42.220 --> 13:44.380]  And that straining at the leash of authorities.
[13:44.560 --> 13:45.400]  Like, I want to protect more.
[13:45.540 --> 13:46.400]  I want to protect more.
[13:46.960 --> 13:49.040]  And the leash would be the legal authorities.
[13:50.580 --> 13:56.880]  So, if you're trying to educate that population, how far... how fast down the rabbit hole can you take them?
[13:57.180 --> 13:57.260]  Right?
[13:57.460 --> 13:59.720]  How do you... how do you get into... given that...
[13:59.720 --> 14:03.060]  And I think that what I just painted was... is reasonably accurate.
[14:03.600 --> 14:06.200]  How far... how fast down the rabbit hole do you take them?
[14:06.340 --> 14:08.020]  And what... what do you teach them?
[14:08.120 --> 14:09.600]  How... and... and when?
[14:12.420 --> 14:15.130]  And this is... this is obviously not scientifically generated.
[14:15.130 --> 14:18.830]  But... and... and... and in that population of people that you're trying to teach...
[14:18.830 --> 14:20.530]  there'll... be some that never get it.
[14:20.610 --> 14:21.690]  That... that is pretty scientific.
[14:21.890 --> 14:26.490]  If you look at studies of social change, you have a very similar graph of it.
[14:27.070 --> 14:27.810]  It's science.
[14:27.970 --> 14:28.670]  It... it's science.
[14:28.890 --> 14:29.750]  Okay, I... I've just...
[14:30.950 --> 14:33.190]  Uh... and even if I... and... and we'll get at this later.
[14:33.310 --> 14:39.250]  Even if I had the ability to survey people and come up with the scientifically generated, uh... results here.
[14:39.850 --> 14:43.370]  Um... it would probably be very embarrassing and... and would shut them up.
[14:43.470 --> 14:44.290]  They'd never do it again.
[14:47.800 --> 14:54.640]  Part of this... and... and maybe a... a strategy to help, uh... frame what... frame people's thinking would be...
[14:54.640 --> 14:58.900]  to get them in terms of... thinking in terms of security and privacy.
[14:59.400 --> 15:01.760]  And... I... I... I like this, uh... uh...
[15:01.760 --> 15:06.820]  Well, we put together this model where you've got two axes... security... uh... two continuums.
[15:06.880 --> 15:09.280]  A security continuum and a privacy continuum.
[15:09.280 --> 15:16.600]  Where security can be... uh... a security solution could be detrimental... uh... ineffective... or effective.
[15:16.820 --> 15:17.640]  So you've got that axis.
[15:17.880 --> 15:24.560]  And then on the other side you have... um... a privacy solution could be invasive, neutral, or... uh... beneficial to privacy.
[15:24.920 --> 15:28.720]  And then from there you can kind of... uh... bucket things into quadrants.
[15:30.580 --> 15:34.140]  The first quadrant accomplishes neither privacy or security.
[15:34.860 --> 15:37.300]  And I would think, uh... in terms of security theater.
[15:37.660 --> 15:37.780]  Right?
[15:37.900 --> 15:42.740]  You get to spend... you spend a lot of money... and it makes privacy... and... and it makes you less secure...
[15:42.740 --> 15:44.960]  and costs, uh... money... and threatens privacy.
[15:45.320 --> 15:48.880]  So that tends to be security theater... a la Bruce Schneier.
[15:50.080 --> 15:57.540]  Then you have solutions that are... uh... accomplish security objectives... uh... but reduce privacy in the process.
[15:58.520 --> 16:06.220]  And... if... if you're not thinking about privacy as being an axis... if you just take off the privacy axis altogether...
[16:06.220 --> 16:10.780]  because you don't think about it... it's not part of your decision making... this is where you could likely end up.
[16:12.020 --> 16:16.540]  Then you have solutions that... uh... are detrimental to... to security.
[16:16.540 --> 16:20.520]  And... uh... but... beneficial for privacy.
[16:20.880 --> 16:23.460]  And we see those all the time in terms of countermeasures.
[16:24.920 --> 16:28.460]  And then ultimately you have solutions in the bottom right quadrant...
[16:28.460 --> 16:31.460]  that increase security and increase privacy.
[16:31.820 --> 16:39.760]  For example, maybe a code audit of... um... you know... major... a... transparent code audit of... major software that people use.
[16:40.080 --> 16:44.360]  And helping push people to try and seek solutions closer to quadrant four...
[16:44.360 --> 16:49.060]  maybe one acceptable way that... uh... you can help get these people to start thinking...
[16:49.060 --> 16:49.860]  in terms of it.
[16:49.980 --> 16:53.540]  Because I don't think they'd consider the privacy axis... very much, if at all.
[16:56.240 --> 16:57.640]  So... it would give you a few successes.
[16:58.120 --> 17:00.960]  And I won't claim that any one of these has changed the world...
[17:00.960 --> 17:02.200]  but I see them as building blocks.
[17:02.640 --> 17:02.840]  Right?
[17:03.340 --> 17:07.120]  These are significant... and... you can build upon them.
[17:08.540 --> 17:11.760]  One... as Gus mentioned... that we've... we're able to get Little Brother into...
[17:11.760 --> 17:15.220]  flagship training course of the major... uh... government organization.
[17:15.600 --> 17:19.440]  And over 600... uh... mid-career and senior people have had a chance to read it.
[17:19.700 --> 17:22.300]  And it wasn't just read it... there was also discussion afterwards...
[17:22.300 --> 17:25.380]  a frame discussion with... with structured discussion questions...
[17:25.380 --> 17:28.420]  about... uh... the importance of privacy and civil liberties to democracy.
[17:28.820 --> 17:30.980]  So we were able... uh... able to make that happen.
[17:31.160 --> 17:33.780]  And the organization was supportive of... of including it.
[17:34.580 --> 17:40.780]  Uh... we had a... in 2012... uh... and again... this is like... shows... what I'm trying to paint...
[17:40.780 --> 17:45.700]  is inside the system... how you can make... brick by brick... you can... you can... help facilitate change.
[17:46.300 --> 17:49.040]  At West Point in 2012... they had a senior conference.
[17:49.180 --> 17:52.780]  And they brought in... uh... the sitting director of NSA... U.S.
[17:52.820 --> 17:53.580]  Cyber Command...
[17:53.580 --> 17:58.780]  two former directors of NSA... was able to get a panel on... privacy and civil liberties...
[17:58.780 --> 17:59.580]  as part of the discussion.
[17:59.940 --> 18:03.260]  And there was about 50 senior leaders in the room... not just military...
[18:03.260 --> 18:05.220]  but leaders from industry and... and government.
[18:05.580 --> 18:09.960]  And... able to get on the panel... uh... Marsha Hoffman... and Jeff Moss...
[18:09.960 --> 18:13.060]  sitting on the panel... with a former director of the NSA.
[18:13.380 --> 18:14.800]  I think that's very cool.
[18:15.200 --> 18:18.300]  And... to... to... to have that type of... uh... of debate... in front of an audience...
[18:18.300 --> 18:20.160]  of people who are really empowered to make a difference.
[18:21.780 --> 18:28.100]  Uh... West Point just hired a... um... uh... ethics fellow... that's going to be focused...
[18:28.100 --> 18:29.700]  on privacy and civil liberties.
[18:29.700 --> 18:32.220]  Again, I think it's the first of its kind.
[18:33.020 --> 18:35.200]  Um... Stephanie's in the audience... sitting there in the dark.
[18:36.020 --> 18:38.780]  Uh... but... uh... again... it's... I think it's very exciting...
[18:38.780 --> 18:40.600]  and a positive move... uh... move forward.
[18:40.860 --> 18:43.800]  So she's going to be focusing on this area... uh... specifically.
[18:47.340 --> 18:50.860]  We've had... we have... uh... formed a privacy research group now...
[18:50.860 --> 18:51.960]  and it's about its fourth year.
[18:52.400 --> 18:54.800]  Uh... because I found that there are... actually... you know...
[18:54.800 --> 18:56.740]  despite what you might think... there's a good number of people...
[18:56.740 --> 18:59.300]  who are interested in this... and wanted to... uh... help make a difference.
[18:59.760 --> 19:00.720]  So... reeled them in.
[19:00.780 --> 19:04.260]  And a lot of those... publications... and talks... and things that I showed you...
[19:04.260 --> 19:06.980]  in the beginning... next to the DEFCON badge...
[19:06.980 --> 19:10.460]  were... uh... came... uh... not just my individual work...
[19:10.460 --> 19:12.280]  but by creating a team of people who are interested.
[19:12.800 --> 19:17.720]  Uh... I think... this is the only privacy research group... uh... in DOD...
[19:17.720 --> 19:18.720]  uh... and I think the government.
[19:19.320 --> 19:21.880]  But... uh... if anyone knows differently... I'd be interested.
[19:22.620 --> 19:23.880]  Again, I think it's positive.
[19:25.660 --> 19:27.260]  Okay, so those are building blocks.
[19:28.040 --> 19:28.440]  Right?
[19:28.980 --> 19:30.520]  What... what could end progress?
[19:30.860 --> 19:32.260]  We know how the world works.
[19:32.400 --> 19:32.640]  Right?
[19:33.000 --> 19:35.860]  If you insert the wrong embarrassing headline here...
[19:35.860 --> 19:37.800]  on the front page of the New York Times...
[19:37.800 --> 19:39.880]  thing... people will... will back off immediately...
[19:40.660 --> 19:41.740]  and... and will shut down.
[19:41.940 --> 19:43.860]  So you have to do this at a pace...
[19:43.860 --> 19:45.620]  and in a way that... that...
[19:46.080 --> 19:48.640]  we just have to operate in the constraints of the system...
[19:48.640 --> 19:49.220]  that we're in.
[19:51.140 --> 19:53.140]  Okay, so let's look a little bit at solutions.
[19:54.740 --> 19:56.960]  When you're dealing with organizations of a hundred thousand...
[19:57.420 --> 19:59.060]  to a million people or more...
[19:59.600 --> 20:01.640]  the tools available are crude.
[20:02.380 --> 20:02.460]  Right?
[20:03.320 --> 20:03.760]  Think...
[20:03.760 --> 20:04.220]  if you're in charge...
[20:04.220 --> 20:05.680]  if you're CEO of a large company...
[20:05.680 --> 20:06.360]  how do you shift it?
[20:06.440 --> 20:06.940]  If you're the...
[20:06.940 --> 20:08.040]  in charge of...
[20:08.040 --> 20:09.820]  a general in charge of an army...
[20:09.820 --> 20:11.260]  how do you change...
[20:11.260 --> 20:13.040]  how the private views the world?
[20:13.140 --> 20:14.260]  You can't do it personally.
[20:14.460 --> 20:15.220]  Things are indirect.
[20:15.600 --> 20:17.480]  So I have a list of... of tools here.
[20:17.600 --> 20:18.940]  But these are tools that could be...
[20:20.840 --> 20:22.840]  could be employed to varying degrees...
[20:22.840 --> 20:24.280]  in varying degrees of effectiveness.
[20:24.720 --> 20:25.440]  So I'll go through some.
[20:26.420 --> 20:28.860]  The government's known for cheesy posters...
[20:28.860 --> 20:30.160]  that... that no one...
[20:30.160 --> 20:30.800]  this is real.
[20:30.980 --> 20:31.540]  This is real.
[20:31.640 --> 20:32.180]  I've seen this.
[20:32.380 --> 20:33.140]  I've seen this.
[20:34.360 --> 20:35.600]  This is where the...
[20:35.600 --> 20:37.180]  the hacker community...
[20:37.180 --> 20:38.840]  has great artists...
[20:41.060 --> 20:41.520]  and...
[20:41.520 --> 20:43.460]  night and day difference from what we see.
[20:43.460 --> 20:44.340]  But I...
[20:44.340 --> 20:45.120]  you could see...
[20:45.120 --> 20:45.320]  you know...
[20:45.320 --> 20:46.740]  perhaps a collaboration...
[20:46.740 --> 20:47.300]  of...
[20:47.300 --> 20:47.760]  with...
[20:47.760 --> 20:48.220]  you know...
[20:48.220 --> 20:49.960]  New York City Art School...
[20:49.960 --> 20:50.760]  to...
[20:50.760 --> 20:52.140]  to create sets of posters...
[20:52.140 --> 20:53.140]  that people want.
[20:53.500 --> 20:53.700]  Right?
[20:54.060 --> 20:55.920]  And don't want just because...
[20:56.460 --> 20:56.780]  they...
[20:56.780 --> 20:57.860]  they're so cheesy...
[20:57.860 --> 20:58.080]  they...
[20:58.080 --> 20:58.340]  it's...
[20:58.340 --> 20:58.980]  it's appealing.
[20:59.320 --> 20:59.880]  And...
[20:59.880 --> 21:01.920]  although I don't know about the ultimate effect...
[21:01.920 --> 21:02.920]  of posters.
[21:03.140 --> 21:05.320]  If you see this over your office copier...
[21:05.320 --> 21:05.940]  and you're like...
[21:05.940 --> 21:06.420]  oh...
[21:06.420 --> 21:06.700]  okay...
[21:06.700 --> 21:07.040]  I will...
[21:07.040 --> 21:09.440]  I will terminate poor security practices.
[21:09.440 --> 21:10.260]  Absolutely.
[21:13.040 --> 21:13.620]  Pamphlets...
[21:13.620 --> 21:13.920]  well...
[21:14.940 --> 21:15.520]  again...
[21:15.520 --> 21:15.800]  you know...
[21:15.800 --> 21:16.520]  these are tools...
[21:16.520 --> 21:17.480]  these are things people do.
[21:17.980 --> 21:19.160]  I like this one...
[21:19.160 --> 21:20.840]  while technically not a pamphlet...
[21:20.840 --> 21:20.940]  it...
[21:20.940 --> 21:22.740]  it is pamphlet-like...
[21:22.740 --> 21:24.460]  and it's one of my personal favorites.
[21:25.280 --> 21:25.900]  It was...
[21:25.900 --> 21:27.840]  Communities Against Terror... Terrorism...
[21:27.840 --> 21:28.840]  FBI...
[21:28.840 --> 21:30.440]  and Bureau of Justice Assistance...
[21:31.860 --> 21:32.440]  document...
[21:32.440 --> 21:32.640]  a...
[21:32.640 --> 21:34.580]  potential indicator of terrorist activities...
[21:34.580 --> 21:35.760]  related to an Internet cafe.
[21:36.620 --> 21:37.200]  And...
[21:37.200 --> 21:37.600]  I...
[21:37.600 --> 21:38.560]  I thought it was funny...
[21:39.440 --> 21:40.740]  if you're concerned about privacy...
[21:40.740 --> 21:41.440]  paying cash...
[21:42.000 --> 21:42.510]  using anonymizer...
[21:43.080 --> 21:43.440]  or encryption...
[21:44.080 --> 21:46.440]  and you download information about electronics...
[21:47.040 --> 21:48.160]  that you could be...
[21:48.160 --> 21:48.780]  you know...
[21:48.780 --> 21:49.560]  considered...
[21:49.560 --> 21:50.680]  someone to watch out...
[21:50.680 --> 21:51.320]  as being a terrorist.
[21:51.780 --> 21:52.360]  But nonetheless...
[21:52.360 --> 21:53.300]  pamphlets are a tool.
[21:54.800 --> 21:56.620]  A professional reading list...
[21:56.620 --> 21:57.440]  these are...
[21:57.440 --> 21:59.560]  there's actually a lot of professional reading...
[21:59.560 --> 22:01.400]  that occurs within the military...
[22:01.400 --> 22:03.780]  senior leaders published lists...
[22:03.780 --> 22:04.570]  getting a book...
[22:05.040 --> 22:06.820]  getting the right book out there...
[22:06.820 --> 22:08.160]  and these are actually quite thoughtful...
[22:08.160 --> 22:09.660]  they'll have discussion questions...
[22:09.660 --> 22:11.020]  and groups around the military...
[22:11.020 --> 22:11.820]  will use these...
[22:12.340 --> 22:12.800]  to...
[22:13.600 --> 22:14.060]  to...
[22:14.060 --> 22:14.370]  form discussions...
[22:14.720 --> 22:15.600]  like a monthly...
[22:15.600 --> 22:16.700]  read a book a month...
[22:16.700 --> 22:17.640]  and then bring everybody in...
[22:17.640 --> 22:18.160]  and have a discussion...
[22:18.680 --> 22:19.100]  so...
[22:19.100 --> 22:20.460]  I think that it would be possible...
[22:20.460 --> 22:20.800]  to...
[22:20.800 --> 22:21.120]  to...
[22:21.120 --> 22:23.500]  get something appropriate here...
[22:25.360 --> 22:25.820]  conferences...
[22:25.820 --> 22:26.820]  can be a tool...
[22:26.820 --> 22:27.300]  like this...
[22:27.300 --> 22:28.160]  you bring a bunch of...
[22:28.160 --> 22:29.660]  like-minded people together...
[22:29.660 --> 22:30.100]  uh...
[22:30.100 --> 22:31.420]  they've gotten much harder...
[22:31.420 --> 22:32.860]  to organize of late...
[22:32.860 --> 22:33.040]  uh...
[22:33.040 --> 22:35.060]  as indicated by the...
[22:35.060 --> 22:35.720]  uh...
[22:35.720 --> 22:36.900]  NBC Nightly News...
[22:36.900 --> 22:37.880]  and the woman dancing...
[22:37.880 --> 22:38.500]  uh...
[22:38.500 --> 22:39.840]  with the dollar sign...
[22:39.840 --> 22:40.900]  uh...
[22:40.900 --> 22:41.860]  bedazzled...
[22:41.860 --> 22:42.970]  medallion around her neck...
[22:43.580 --> 22:44.100]  uh...
[22:44.100 --> 22:44.660]  so...
[22:44.660 --> 22:45.680]  conferences are harder...
[22:45.680 --> 22:46.670]  but they're also a tool...
[22:47.440 --> 22:47.810]  and...
[22:48.180 --> 22:49.060]  there's this...
[22:49.060 --> 22:50.280]  this thing in the...
[22:50.280 --> 22:50.780]  well...
[22:50.780 --> 22:51.120]  the Army...
[22:51.120 --> 22:51.940]  in the military...
[22:51.940 --> 22:53.920]  called mandatory annual training...
[22:53.920 --> 22:54.420]  and...
[22:54.420 --> 22:54.880]  again...
[22:54.880 --> 22:55.580]  this is kind of...
[22:55.580 --> 22:56.860]  more of a compliance mode...
[22:56.860 --> 22:57.400]  you have to...
[22:57.400 --> 23:00.080]  you have to have a certain amount of training every year...
[23:00.080 --> 23:01.080]  either in the classroom...
[23:01.080 --> 23:02.860]  some of it's computer-based...
[23:02.860 --> 23:03.180]  uh...
[23:03.180 --> 23:03.900]  but it's real...
[23:03.900 --> 23:04.740]  and it gets out there...
[23:04.740 --> 23:05.940]  I don't think...
[23:06.600 --> 23:07.040]  including...
[23:07.600 --> 23:08.040]  uh...
[23:08.040 --> 23:09.420]  privacy and civil liberty...
[23:09.420 --> 23:11.040]  the importance of privacy and civil liberties...
[23:11.040 --> 23:11.860]  will not come...
[23:11.860 --> 23:12.520]  from...
[23:12.520 --> 23:13.700]  from this type of training...
[23:16.300 --> 23:16.740]  okay...
[23:16.740 --> 23:17.020]  so I...
[23:17.020 --> 23:17.500]  I have...
[23:17.500 --> 23:18.940]  just a couple of examples...
[23:18.940 --> 23:20.220]  and to be fair...
[23:20.220 --> 23:21.980]  I've chosen these because...
[23:21.980 --> 23:22.400]  they're...
[23:22.400 --> 23:24.760]  the absolute worst example I could find...
[23:24.760 --> 23:25.280]  uh...
[23:25.280 --> 23:26.560]  in terms of training...
[23:26.560 --> 23:26.740]  uh...
[23:26.740 --> 23:29.260]  but the most humorous example I could find...
[23:29.260 --> 23:29.480]  uh...
[23:29.480 --> 23:30.020]  so there...
[23:30.020 --> 23:31.620]  one idea came from...
[23:31.620 --> 23:33.660]  you want to turn your computer on...
[23:33.660 --> 23:33.940]  we...
[23:33.940 --> 23:35.080]  and use it...
[23:35.080 --> 23:36.120]  before you can use it...
[23:36.120 --> 23:37.400]  you have to answer a question...
[23:37.400 --> 23:38.960]  on a given subject...
[23:38.960 --> 23:39.960]  all right...
[23:40.580 --> 23:40.980]  okay...
[23:40.980 --> 23:41.220]  uh...
[23:41.220 --> 23:41.600]  it would...
[23:41.600 --> 23:43.120]  it would frustrate me...
[23:43.120 --> 23:43.480]  but it...
[23:43.480 --> 23:45.580]  it might be when you're trying to educate...
[23:45.580 --> 23:46.840]  a hundred thousand people...
[23:46.840 --> 23:48.060]  all at the same time...
[23:48.060 --> 23:48.700]  all right...
[23:48.700 --> 23:49.040]  so...
[23:49.040 --> 23:50.620]  let's take a look at this one...
[23:50.620 --> 23:51.020]  and I've...
[23:51.020 --> 23:52.860]  if you see the gray boxes...
[23:52.860 --> 23:56.030]  I've anonymized the logos that were all over this system...
[23:58.540 --> 23:59.040]  okay...
[23:59.040 --> 23:59.540]  and here it is...
[23:59.540 --> 24:01.860]  this is part of workplace violence training...
[24:02.480 --> 24:04.280]  would slamming a sandwich...
[24:04.280 --> 24:04.760]  uh...
[24:04.760 --> 24:06.050]  in the garbage can in anger...
[24:06.380 --> 24:08.050]  be an indicator for workplace violence...
[24:09.980 --> 24:10.480]  right...
[24:10.480 --> 24:10.860]  so...
[24:10.860 --> 24:11.500]  I don't know...
[24:11.500 --> 24:13.100]  ask yourself...
[24:13.100 --> 24:15.380]  what the world wants to know...
[24:15.380 --> 24:15.960]  ah...
[24:16.520 --> 24:17.020]  no...
[24:17.020 --> 24:18.400]  the answer is no...
[24:18.400 --> 24:20.740]  it means he or she had a bad sandwich...
[24:25.580 --> 24:26.060]  so...
[24:26.060 --> 24:28.420]  thankfully my friends worldwide send me these...
[24:28.420 --> 24:29.260]  and then...
[24:29.260 --> 24:29.560]  I can...
[24:29.560 --> 24:31.020]  I can use them in talks...
[24:32.120 --> 24:32.360]  uh...
[24:32.360 --> 24:33.040]  and... and again...
[24:33.040 --> 24:33.300]  I...
[24:33.300 --> 24:34.780]  there's actually a lot better...
[24:34.780 --> 24:35.520]  this is...
[24:35.520 --> 24:37.120]  the worst one I could find...
[24:37.120 --> 24:37.340]  so...
[24:37.340 --> 24:38.800]  this is an outlier...
[24:38.800 --> 24:40.200]  and another...
[24:40.860 --> 24:41.340]  okay...
[24:41.340 --> 24:43.260]  this is computer-based training...
[24:43.260 --> 24:43.980]  and...
[24:43.980 --> 24:45.440]  this is...
[24:45.440 --> 24:46.520]  part of the...
[24:47.340 --> 24:47.940]  mandatory...
[24:47.940 --> 24:48.140]  uh...
[24:48.140 --> 24:49.260]  protect classified information...
[24:50.000 --> 24:50.520]  uh...
[24:50.520 --> 24:51.220]  protect...
[24:51.220 --> 24:51.520]  uh...
[24:52.220 --> 24:52.820]  uh...
[24:52.820 --> 24:54.340]  personally identifiable information...
[24:54.340 --> 24:55.240]  computer-based training...
[24:55.240 --> 24:56.660]  presumably built by a...
[24:56.660 --> 24:57.620]  contractor...
[24:57.620 --> 24:58.720]  and this is the...
[24:58.720 --> 25:00.640]  protecting classified information...
[25:00.640 --> 25:01.380]  scavenger hunt...
[25:01.960 --> 25:02.340]  right...
[25:02.340 --> 25:03.460]  so we'll... we'll get to the...
[25:03.460 --> 25:04.540]  the...
[25:04.540 --> 25:05.520]  details of the scavenger hunt...
[25:05.520 --> 25:06.120]  in the question...
[25:06.120 --> 25:08.000]  but you see various things on the desk...
[25:08.000 --> 25:08.300]  like the...
[25:08.300 --> 25:09.380]  the open safe...
[25:09.380 --> 25:10.740]  and the folder with...
[25:10.740 --> 25:12.100]  five-inch high letters...
[25:12.100 --> 25:13.160]  that say PII...
[25:13.160 --> 25:16.300]  And the fax with a secret cover sheet on it.
[25:17.820 --> 25:19.260]  Okay, they give you clues.
[25:20.060 --> 25:22.920]  Maybe use to talk to people in different locations.
[25:23.160 --> 25:24.740]  Now, don't shout out the answer if you get it.
[25:26.640 --> 25:27.360]  All right.
[25:27.660 --> 25:29.000]  All right, so you can think again.
[25:29.180 --> 25:31.300]  Clue one, use to talk to people.
[25:32.780 --> 25:34.240]  It must be plugged in.
[25:36.040 --> 25:38.340]  Again, clue two.
[25:40.040 --> 25:41.740]  Finally, in the ringer.
[25:42.780 --> 25:45.620]  It rings when other people contact you.
[25:45.840 --> 25:48.380]  So at this point, I'm about ready to slit my wrists.
[25:48.780 --> 25:51.660]  Because this is about four hours of training.
[25:52.480 --> 25:54.760]  And that you can't just click next on.
[25:55.020 --> 25:56.920]  And there's no way to just take the test.
[25:57.080 --> 25:58.660]  You have to go through this.
[26:01.440 --> 26:04.140]  Okay, and let's get to the final screen.
[26:05.140 --> 26:07.860]  Okay, and I added the arrow in case anyone was wondering.
[26:08.500 --> 26:11.720]  The answer was, you use your desk telephone to talk to people in different areas.
[26:11.720 --> 26:12.260]  different locations.
[26:12.840 --> 26:15.200]  And it rings when people use it to contact you.
[26:15.740 --> 26:18.880]  Unlike your mobile telephone, it must be plugged in when in use.
[26:20.540 --> 26:25.260]  Okay, so again, I don't know that computer-based training is the right answer here.
[26:25.440 --> 26:29.200]  And if you'll forgive me, I think this is somewhat relevant to the end.
[26:29.200 --> 26:31.860]  And it's also part of my personal therapy for my sanity.
[26:32.740 --> 26:34.340]  To just share this with you.
[26:35.120 --> 26:44.040]  The military actually, the military and civilian organizations have robust civilian leader development, military and civilian leader development programs.
[26:44.240 --> 26:45.560]  Years of education.
[26:46.280 --> 26:52.160]  As an officer in the army, you'll have three years of classroom experience.
[26:52.160 --> 26:55.900]  Formal, like away from everything classroom experience in 20.
[26:56.320 --> 26:59.600]  If not, picking up a master's degree or other things along the way.
[26:59.780 --> 27:01.520]  And then myriad other things plugged in.
[27:01.700 --> 27:03.820]  And the same thing on the civilian side.
[27:03.980 --> 27:09.360]  So getting into that, getting into lesson objectives or lessons in those programs has potential.
[27:09.880 --> 27:12.280]  And again, that's the type of momentum you can help build.
[27:12.500 --> 27:17.660]  If you start getting an increased degree of people who understand the importance of this, they can start embedding this.
[27:18.540 --> 27:21.100]  And there's a great deal of professional writing that occurs.
[27:22.980 --> 27:26.120]  Ultimately though, it takes senior leader support.
[27:26.340 --> 27:29.020]  If you go in with this idea like, hey, let's do this thing.
[27:29.900 --> 27:33.480]  You need to win over the senior leaders and have them help champion it.
[27:33.600 --> 27:37.300]  So targeting senior leaders in some way, it would probably be very optimal.
[27:38.800 --> 27:47.120]  And an upcoming opportunity and what we're hoping to do is apply what we get, comes out of the discussion today, is this is National Defense University.
[27:47.120 --> 27:48.200]  It's down in DC.
[27:48.480 --> 27:55.800]  We're going to be bringing in about 200 military senior leaders for basically a one-day event where people will be providing talks.
[27:55.960 --> 28:00.480]  And Stephanie's going to give a talk there on the importance of privacy and civil liberties.
[28:00.740 --> 28:05.580]  So what we're trying to do is get feedback from you all for ideas there.
[28:07.180 --> 28:19.880]  And then I won't go into all of these, but I think that there are strategies and kind of things we need to keep in mind when trying to train and educate people from these type of communities.
[28:20.380 --> 28:25.360]  We want to win them over in terms of the world view, not out of a sense of compliance.
[28:26.340 --> 28:28.420]  And understand that there's a limited rate of change.
[28:29.100 --> 28:34.420]  I think ultimately a good starting point would be coming out of mutual respect.
[28:34.420 --> 28:38.660]  So like not just dismissing that hand, but out of mutual respect.
[28:38.980 --> 28:47.500]  And the message comes best if you have an ally inside that community working from inside because they've got street cred there rather than trying to come in.
[28:47.660 --> 28:55.020]  And if you're trying to come in and you don't have kind of excessive background in that, you can at least work with people who do to help calibrate you.
[28:55.940 --> 28:58.120]  That it doesn't just need to be senior leaders.
[28:58.180 --> 28:59.940]  It can also be at the grassroots level.
[28:59.940 --> 29:04.200]  And I tend to... I believe that research is an enabler because it gives the tools...
[29:04.200 --> 29:07.480]  It helps provide tools to people to incorporate in their classrooms.
[29:09.060 --> 29:09.580]  All right.
[29:09.720 --> 29:14.620]  So this is just a straw man concept of content I put together.
[29:15.460 --> 29:21.600]  This is, again, just a light sketch that hopefully when we go to Q&A we can... it kind of gets you thinking.
[29:21.780 --> 29:27.540]  But I think you have to convey the why, who cares, and so what aspects to this to the audience.
[29:27.540 --> 29:31.100]  How does this... because you're thinking security, security, security.
[29:31.320 --> 29:33.140]  Why do I need to worry about this other thing?
[29:33.380 --> 29:37.780]  And I think there's great examples from history about privacy and civil liberties in general.
[29:38.080 --> 29:43.780]  And certainly those of abuses in the past that could be conveyed.
[29:44.120 --> 29:56.100]  How this ties to the law and in terms of ideology and kind of philosophy as well as a representative cases or something that could highlight particular aspects.
[29:56.100 --> 29:59.920]  Tying it to the challenge of the instrumented world is another.
[30:00.120 --> 30:02.820]  And maybe with some motivating examples that aren't...
[30:02.820 --> 30:09.380]  that are probably common knowledge in this community but not common knowledge for the average military or government person.
[30:09.520 --> 30:12.880]  Such as EFF's work on micro dots...
[30:12.880 --> 30:18.000]  micro dot serial numbers coming out on printed documents out of certain printers.
[30:18.000 --> 30:22.360]  That the U.S. Postal Service that was reported in the news...
[30:23.220 --> 30:27.820]  scans the outside of every envelope and package to create a database of...
[30:27.820 --> 30:30.860]  of every message that's... that's sent even through the paper mail.
[30:31.120 --> 30:34.200]  And then getting people thinking about what the future portends.
[30:35.300 --> 30:39.000]  And... and then conveying other concepts such as...
[30:39.000 --> 30:44.240]  that... that understand the perspective of the citizen that you're trying to protect is equally important to democracy.
[30:45.500 --> 30:49.980]  And that you can't always be sure that your world view is right.
[30:50.120 --> 30:51.720]  You need to be open to new ideas.
[30:52.360 --> 30:54.560]  That engaging the population is important.
[30:55.480 --> 30:57.860]  And that freedom of thought... freedom of our expression...
[30:58.620 --> 31:01.080]  really are fundamental tenets of our democracy.
[31:01.260 --> 31:03.540]  If you destroy those, you risk destroying our democracy.
[31:05.040 --> 31:06.560]  Okay, so to wrap.
[31:07.240 --> 31:09.460]  This isn't... there are no overnight solutions.
[31:09.460 --> 31:11.840]  I think we're building this brick by brick.
[31:11.980 --> 31:13.960]  But at the same time, we're in a historic era where...
[31:14.520 --> 31:16.860]  a lot of people will be more open-minded...
[31:16.860 --> 31:19.980]  to these discussions, perhaps, than they were in the past.
[31:20.680 --> 31:21.820]  Progress can be fragile.
[31:21.980 --> 31:23.900]  Like I said, front page of the New York Times.
[31:24.740 --> 31:26.260]  It requires engagement on...
[31:26.260 --> 31:27.400]  both sides have to try.
[31:27.520 --> 31:29.120]  All sides have to try, right?
[31:29.660 --> 31:32.220]  I'm trying to work on the... the military and government side.
[31:34.020 --> 31:34.460]  And...
[31:34.460 --> 31:38.740]  not just to reach into the military, but it's the policy makers, ultimately, that control our fate.
[31:40.940 --> 31:42.400]  Okay, so...
[31:42.400 --> 31:44.180]  I was hoping to...
[31:44.180 --> 31:45.740]  is it possible to raise the lights?
[31:46.480 --> 31:46.560]  Okay.
[31:47.400 --> 31:50.240]  But these are the questions that I hope to maybe...
[31:51.600 --> 31:53.900]  during Q&A, which we're about to go to...
[31:53.900 --> 31:56.480]  if you want to comment on anything...
[31:56.480 --> 31:57.420]  or to...
[31:57.420 --> 32:00.200]  you know, bring up some point associated with this.
[32:00.420 --> 32:01.200]  You know, when...
[32:01.200 --> 32:02.420]  you know, how did your...
[32:02.420 --> 32:05.540]  how have you seen an awakening occur in yourself or others?
[32:06.260 --> 32:07.520]  What would you teach people?
[32:07.520 --> 32:10.380]  What strategies or techniques would you recommend?
[32:10.960 --> 32:12.860]  Other sources of content...
[32:12.860 --> 32:14.260]  and ideas, because...
[32:14.260 --> 32:18.320]  this is the Internet era that we live in, and I recognize there's tremendous resources out there.
[32:20.140 --> 32:20.580]  And...
[32:20.580 --> 32:22.340]  you know, any other ideas you might want to share.
[32:22.580 --> 32:25.860]  So, with that, if we can go to Q&A, I'll...
[32:25.860 --> 32:26.860]  happy to...
[32:26.860 --> 32:29.440]  take questions, and hopefully get a little discussion going.
[32:29.660 --> 32:30.900]  Can you please...
[32:30.900 --> 32:31.500]  Sorry.
[32:43.000 --> 32:43.620]  Yeah, hi.
[32:44.620 --> 33:01.860]  Regarding your outreach to the military, as you start thinking about their experience and the things they're trying to do, and it sounds like you have a pretty good understanding of it already, one of the things that sometimes works is they have a wonderful historical sense.
[33:02.120 --> 33:04.040]  I mean, they read history all the time.
[33:04.480 --> 33:08.640]  And so, there's also the idea of fighting the last war.
[33:10.260 --> 33:14.340]  So, you had a little note about examples of abusive...
[33:14.340 --> 33:15.700]  previous abuse of governments.
[33:17.280 --> 33:26.280]  Maybe indirectly, you should also work on the metaphor of us turning into the people we beat, because that's a well-known metaphor.
[33:27.460 --> 33:33.720]  You know, like, we didn't fight the Cold War to create a police state here, for example.
[33:33.940 --> 33:35.340]  And that would really resonate.
[33:35.580 --> 33:43.520]  And the other thing is they're not going to be as liberal as, you know, perhaps this audience.
[33:44.240 --> 33:56.660]  So, some of the things which, again, indirectly you can reach out to where you would say, oh, those idiot right-wingers are upset about this or that, whether it be IRS or whatever.
[33:57.680 --> 34:00.180]  Those kind of metaphors will also resonate.
[34:02.500 --> 34:12.660]  And try to do it fairly, so that no one thinks that you're saying, well, you know, let's make believe that we're, we're all going to be over on this side of the spectrum now.
[34:13.060 --> 34:16.480]  I mean, the fact that they do this, I mean, there is a southern military tradition.
[34:17.120 --> 34:21.260]  So, that's what, you know, those kind of people have kept us alive.
[34:22.100 --> 34:22.560]  Thank you.
[34:22.740 --> 34:22.860]  Very good.
[34:22.960 --> 34:23.200]  Thank you.
[34:25.580 --> 34:26.560]  Okay, sir.
[34:28.340 --> 34:48.620]  So, one of the things that's disturbing to me, about the current situation, is the appearance of our moving towards a permanently militarized society, which is approaching sort of banana republic status with the security money that's going into local police departments,
[34:49.160 --> 34:56.180]  and the militarization of local police, increasingly putting us in a situation that looks like a banana republic.
[34:56.740 --> 35:07.040]  You can't have dissent when the police are much more effective at kettling the protesters, and we'll lock them up for three days, and then let them out, etc.
[35:07.240 --> 35:16.980]  So, the tactics that have been pioneered so effectively here in New York, the Republican National Convention, and the Occupy Wall Street demonstrations.
[35:17.360 --> 35:29.220]  So, that relies on the recruitment of entry-level folks, who are coming primarily from low-income communities now.
[35:29.220 --> 35:34.600]  The citizen army doesn't...
[35:34.600 --> 35:39.920]  is rapidly falling away, and you're seeing recruitment from...
[35:39.920 --> 35:55.780]  as a way for low-income kids to get education, to have a secure job, and to get out of the ghetto, or whatever conditions they're in.
[35:58.700 --> 36:16.680]  the danger of that is that you create a caste system where we now have a military-slash-police caste that's permanent, and that's invested in the continued oppression of everybody else for the interests of the elite.
[36:17.900 --> 36:30.300]  It's very hopeful to me to hear your talk that the upper echelons of the military, as you're experiencing, do not see the world that way, or don't seem to, from your description.
[36:30.500 --> 36:32.160]  And I think that's a good thing.
[36:34.880 --> 36:47.840]  But fundamentally, what might be something we need to address is a kind of psychological difference between the folks who are here, for the most part, and the folks in the military.
[36:48.140 --> 36:50.960]  And that is, one's relationship to authority.
[36:51.880 --> 36:59.640]  It's a psychological difference that's extremely powerful and that really seems to sometimes separate the sheep from the goats.
[37:01.220 --> 37:12.660]  And it's hard to be on the same side or to form alliances with people who are very different from you about that fundamental psychological issue.
[37:13.620 --> 37:20.060]  So, I'm not sure where that goes in terms of convent from your part, but those are the concerns that I bring.
[37:20.180 --> 37:33.740]  And I teach college students at City College here, which, because it's New York City and City College, are very ethnically diverse and tend to be sort of low-income relative to Columbia.
[37:35.880 --> 37:38.580]  So, those are folks I would like to be able to influence.
[37:38.960 --> 37:41.020]  So, it's very relevant to me here.
[37:42.060 --> 37:44.300]  I think you bring some important points up.
[37:44.520 --> 37:46.620]  The idea of recruiting, right?
[37:46.760 --> 37:52.200]  I mean, the military is composed of people recruited from the population.
[37:52.440 --> 37:54.920]  So, the pipeline of people in...
[37:54.920 --> 37:59.000]  So, this isn't just an issue inside the governments or militaries.
[37:59.160 --> 38:00.860]  It's an issue in the population.
[38:01.140 --> 38:07.640]  That the more you can influence the population coming in, the more training you...
[38:07.640 --> 38:08.980]  the world you get...
[38:08.980 --> 38:11.520]  the change you get for free in many ways, if you can...
[38:11.520 --> 38:12.760]  if you can touch that.
[38:15.220 --> 38:15.700]  There's...
[38:15.700 --> 38:23.100]  there's also a concern, generally, in the military of this increased separation between the military and the population which it serves, right?
[38:23.200 --> 38:23.500]  And that...
[38:23.500 --> 38:24.720]  and that gap.
[38:24.940 --> 38:25.300]  And that...
[38:25.300 --> 38:29.160]  they live in isolated pockets and military bases with guards around them.
[38:29.160 --> 38:34.500]  and sometimes, you can spend days or months living on base before you even get out.
[38:35.100 --> 38:36.280]  So, that's...
[38:36.280 --> 38:36.980]  that's a concern.
[38:37.200 --> 38:38.080]  It's a known...
[38:38.080 --> 38:39.080]  it's a known problem.
[38:39.780 --> 38:41.840]  And, you know, getting out there and...
[38:42.440 --> 38:45.260]  you know, in the real world is important.
[38:46.540 --> 38:47.020]  So...
[38:47.020 --> 38:47.800]  and...
[38:47.800 --> 38:48.780]  and the idea of...
[38:48.780 --> 38:50.000]  of variety of views.
[38:50.100 --> 38:50.460]  I mean, I...
[38:50.460 --> 38:52.400]  I wouldn't say that it's nirvana and...
[38:52.400 --> 38:53.660]  but I think that people...
[38:54.380 --> 38:55.820]  it's that security mindset.
[38:56.040 --> 38:57.660]  You have to get past that they're thinking...
[38:58.280 --> 39:01.260]  really, they're laser focused on security, security, security.
[39:01.820 --> 39:02.240]  And...
[39:02.240 --> 39:05.460]  to help them kind of broaden their perspective so it can be done.
[39:05.600 --> 39:06.560]  But all very good points, sir.
[39:06.680 --> 39:06.940]  Thank you.
[39:07.440 --> 39:08.160]  Okay, sir.
[39:08.720 --> 39:09.140]  Hi.
[39:09.840 --> 39:12.360]  So, to answer one of your questions on the board...
[39:12.920 --> 39:13.900]  I come from the UK.
[39:14.040 --> 39:15.260]  My awakening occurred when...
[39:16.740 --> 39:18.200]  when I was relatively young.
[39:18.440 --> 39:22.580]  Our government passed draconian laws that said, you hand over your encryption keys or you end up in jail forever.
[39:22.840 --> 39:23.260]  Period.
[39:23.420 --> 39:27.560]  There's no end to when we can, you know, decide to let you out.
[39:28.620 --> 39:32.860]  And that, to me, you know, from my history class, I knew that wasn't a good thing.
[39:33.220 --> 39:35.900]  That, you know, our government had started taking bad steps.
[39:36.280 --> 39:38.780]  But if I may be so bold to ask you a question.
[39:39.040 --> 39:39.080]  Sure.
[39:39.080 --> 39:47.720]  You've clearly got this fantastic position within a very hierarchical organization to help educate your leaders in privacy.
[39:48.140 --> 39:57.640]  I work in the UK government and I'm curious as to how you got into that sort of role within that type of organization, how you created that space for yourself.
[39:58.720 --> 40:06.880]  So, there are various pockets in the military and I was able to steer toward West Point which is an educational institution.
[40:07.200 --> 40:07.680]  So, they...
[40:07.680 --> 40:14.960]  it's an undergraduate school, the academic departments, they support academic freedom, which is important because it's really...
[40:14.960 --> 40:17.860]  and you're encouraged to publish and to go out and do things.
[40:17.860 --> 40:22.940]  and unless you're disclosing classified information or obvious...
[40:22.940 --> 40:29.400]  or giving away, you know, sources and methods or things like that, you have a very wide lane in which to...
[40:29.400 --> 40:29.960]  to work.
[40:30.560 --> 40:32.400]  And I've enjoyed...
[40:32.400 --> 40:34.100]  I've pushed the limits of that lane.
[40:35.000 --> 40:35.480]  But...
[40:36.460 --> 40:38.600]  you can get a lot done with academic freedom.
[40:39.520 --> 40:39.960]  And...
[40:39.960 --> 40:40.440]  and I...
[40:40.440 --> 40:40.580]  yeah.
[40:40.840 --> 40:41.600]  So, I think...
[40:41.600 --> 40:42.340]  and hence the others.
[40:42.480 --> 40:45.520]  I mean, there are others there that we kind of gravitated toward that...
[40:45.520 --> 40:48.660]  that pocket as a place that we could think more freely.
[40:49.080 --> 40:49.520]  Okay.
[40:49.780 --> 40:50.280]  Thank you kindly.
[40:50.620 --> 40:55.120]  I'd also add that, largely, until the birth of things like Cyber Command and...
[40:55.120 --> 40:59.640]  and Army Cyber Command, that, largely, they weren't really even aware this community existed.
[41:01.120 --> 41:02.340]  As much as...
[41:02.340 --> 41:04.540]  you know, like, the military just focused on military things.
[41:04.560 --> 41:06.560]  They weren't really thinking in terms of cybersecurity.
[41:07.360 --> 41:07.800]  Uh...
[41:07.800 --> 41:10.000]  they are starting to pay attention more now, so...
[41:10.000 --> 41:10.300]  Okay.
[41:10.720 --> 41:11.360]  Thanks again.
[41:11.460 --> 41:12.640]  Which could be good or bad for me.
[41:12.820 --> 41:13.080]  Okay.
[41:14.340 --> 41:14.780]  Hi.
[41:14.780 --> 41:21.320]  I'm a human rights humanitarian researcher and I just want to bring a couple of international perspectives that, um...
[41:21.320 --> 41:21.760]  in...
[41:21.760 --> 41:27.060]  in the post-911 world and looking at the world as a battlefield, the global war on terror, quote-unquote, right?
[41:27.760 --> 41:36.920]  And under the 3D approach of diplomacy, defense, and development for international development for any civil society folks in the room, uh...
[41:36.920 --> 41:37.280]  we can't...
[41:37.280 --> 41:39.440]  it's not enough to just talk about, um...
[41:39.440 --> 41:40.520]  working with government and military.
[41:40.520 --> 41:44.800]  that's already a huge ball of wax that will keep lots of folks employed for the rest of their lives.
[41:44.940 --> 41:47.400]  I'm sure you will have no dearth of work in this line.
[41:48.540 --> 41:49.020]  Um...
[41:49.020 --> 41:49.180]  Sorry.
[41:50.740 --> 41:51.220]  Um...
[41:51.220 --> 41:52.740]  My concern is around...
[41:52.740 --> 41:54.500]  How can I distill this?
[41:54.820 --> 41:56.940]  The oxymoronic, uh...
[41:56.940 --> 41:59.380]  phrase, humanitarian militarism.
[42:00.960 --> 42:01.480]  Hmm...
[42:01.480 --> 42:01.760]  Okay.
[42:03.180 --> 42:04.180]  The Peace Corps?
[42:05.220 --> 42:05.740]  No.
[42:06.040 --> 42:08.140]  I'm actually talking about, um...
[42:08.140 --> 42:13.800]  you know, maybe some folks read an article a month or so ago, I think it was in The Nation, on, uh...
[42:13.800 --> 42:19.300]  something which most Americans have no clue about, which is the largest drone base in the world, largest, um...
[42:19.300 --> 42:21.160]  military base, largest U.S.
[42:21.340 --> 42:26.940]  military point of operation in Djibouti, and the massive expansion of U.S.
[42:27.100 --> 42:28.400]  military, um...
[42:28.400 --> 42:29.160]  in Africa.
[42:29.420 --> 42:31.280]  Most of my work has been in Sub-Saharan Africa.
[42:31.500 --> 42:32.020]  Not only, though.
[42:33.180 --> 42:33.660]  Um...
[42:33.660 --> 42:34.340]  And...
[42:34.340 --> 42:38.060]  my concern is not just, uh...
[42:38.060 --> 42:39.300]  the maneuvering of U.S.
[42:39.460 --> 42:45.280]  military in the world and its interactions with local populations on quote-unquote humanitarian grounds, which I...
[42:45.280 --> 42:46.740]  which is a very debatable concept.
[42:48.100 --> 42:48.580]  Um...
[42:48.580 --> 42:55.620]  I'm concerned with technology and information ethics, right to privacy, and the ways in which data is the new oil, data is the new conflict resource.
[42:56.660 --> 43:04.420]  Populations, segments of populations, for example, Horn of Africa, being targeted on the basis of co-opting of data, capturing data via backdoor channels.
[43:04.640 --> 43:07.140]  A lot of it happens by subcontractors.
[43:07.420 --> 43:12.540]  Military is working a lot through subcontractors, as are international development organizations.
[43:12.760 --> 43:13.000]  U.S.
[43:13.040 --> 43:14.900]  aid works through subcontractors.
[43:15.800 --> 43:23.940]  How can we work on the right to privacy, responsible data practices, not only with government and military, not just with U.S.
[43:23.960 --> 43:24.480]  aid and U.S.
[43:24.600 --> 43:30.840]  military, but with all of the subcontractors, the private security and defense contractors, the NGOs, the U.S.
[43:30.860 --> 43:31.360]  aid funds.
[43:32.140 --> 43:34.680]  So this is, this is, this is a, you know...
[43:34.680 --> 43:35.560]  It's a non-trivial problem.
[43:35.860 --> 43:37.800]  I recognize that, but I'm raising it.
[43:38.540 --> 43:38.960]  Yeah.
[43:39.680 --> 43:42.860]  Well, I mean, there are, so there are tools, right, to...
[43:42.860 --> 43:44.820]  So, sorry, just a quick thing.
[43:45.040 --> 44:01.520]  So, one of the ways in which I'm personally addressing this, is by working as an early adopter of crypto tools and secure communications, et cetera, and trying to work with my fellow humanitarian researchers to also adopt and start to use secure communications and encrypt files and hard drives and these kinds of things.
[44:02.120 --> 44:10.040]  So, for example, I'm working on developing a crypto party for humanitarian researchers who do things that I do.
[44:10.380 --> 44:10.520]  Yes.
[44:10.960 --> 44:11.500]  Yeah.
[44:11.680 --> 44:23.860]  I think, ultimately, I mean, the way the giant bureaucracy works, is contractors are responsive to the types of opportunities that are out there and how the contracts are written.
[44:24.060 --> 44:24.320]  Mm-hmm.
[44:24.320 --> 44:30.760]  If the people that are funding the contracts care, you'll see contractors caring and subcontractors.
[44:30.880 --> 44:33.460]  And it can literally, so I mean that's the tool.
[44:33.680 --> 44:34.640]  That's how they respond.
[44:34.880 --> 44:36.160]  It's via the contract.
[44:36.500 --> 44:36.620]  Right.
[44:36.680 --> 44:48.300]  Or the culture, and if they think that there's something beneficial for them in terms of reputation or in terms of getting the contract or money, Then those are... I have to think about it some more, go off the cuff.
[44:49.540 --> 44:50.820]  Very good points though, thank you.
[44:52.540 --> 44:52.940]  Sir.
[44:54.180 --> 44:54.580]  Sir.
[44:55.880 --> 45:02.360]  So I have a question for you, which is... let me give you a little background, hopefully I can phrase this correctly.
[45:02.800 --> 45:05.020]  We're really good at negative reinforcement.
[45:05.320 --> 45:10.640]  When we see abuses, when we see things that are done incorrectly, we shine a spotlight on it.
[45:11.380 --> 45:14.880]  You know, there's no lack of that in the media right now.
[45:14.900 --> 45:19.780]  for concerns as to how the government's acting, behaving, etc., etc.
[45:20.620 --> 45:31.280]  Rarely do we see positive parts, but when we do, like you are this little bastion of light in a place that we normally, you know, try to negatively reinforce and say bad government.
[45:31.760 --> 45:40.560]  What can we do, since we aren't in the chain of command and we can't promote you, that actually help with a positive reinforcement for the small good things that we see?
[45:41.640 --> 45:43.280]  So this is a very fair question.
[45:43.540 --> 45:52.640]  The first thing that comes to mind, and this doesn't answer your question, is that an organization I work for, they use the motto, informal motto, absence of criticism is praise.
[45:54.640 --> 45:57.440]  They even had it translated into... Latin.
[45:57.440 --> 45:58.340]  Latin, yes.
[45:58.960 --> 45:59.480]  Latin,
[46:02.970 --> 46:03.030]  yes.
[46:04.050 --> 46:12.990]  The military is responsive to civilian oversight, very much so it's built into the DNA from day one that the military is responsive to the civilian authority.
[46:13.570 --> 46:16.050]  So do we write our standards with positive things?
[46:16.150 --> 46:22.510]  Civilian authority is probably a tool to do that.
[46:22.670 --> 46:25.810]  I don't know... well, you have some experience in this area.
[46:25.810 --> 46:26.370]  Maybe a little.
[46:26.610 --> 46:35.210]  And my take would be those that... you look up the food chain and those people can influence things.
[46:35.230 --> 46:36.390]  Call them, write them.
[46:36.970 --> 46:42.790]  As citizens, when we see something good finally, how do we fan those flames correctly?
[46:44.570 --> 46:48.490]  So... and I'm interested in your ideas on this too, but I'll take a swag at it.
[46:48.570 --> 46:49.350]  And I would say yes.
[46:49.570 --> 46:54.270]  I mean, this... we have... there are a variety of ways.
[46:54.270 --> 46:59.430]  And one is the news community, bloggers.
[46:59.870 --> 47:01.410]  There's the press.
[47:01.630 --> 47:07.550]  But you have to... there's the written word in terms of magazines and online news.
[47:07.750 --> 47:11.910]  But you have to go to where the people you're trying to influence are, right?
[47:12.030 --> 47:15.990]  They're not going to read... congressmen don't read Slashdot.
[47:16.470 --> 47:18.410]  Congressman read the front page of New York Times.
[47:19.590 --> 47:27.350]  The Capitol Hill staffers are, you know, water and hall tax, but... but you put the news where that you know it'll be consumed.
[47:27.510 --> 47:29.210]  You can go... you can go more directly.
[47:30.010 --> 47:33.450]  And for those that are interested in the... in the hierarchy that is the Army.
[47:33.470 --> 47:38.350]  Yes, Colonel is... it's... I'm... it's senior enough to be in the room, but you get the back seat in the room.
[47:38.930 --> 47:42.410]  It's... it's the general officers that are really making the decision, but we get a chance.
[47:42.890 --> 47:43.870]  So I'm interested in your thoughts.
[47:44.050 --> 47:45.050]  Did I miss any key point there?
[47:45.710 --> 47:46.450]  I'm curious.
[47:46.770 --> 47:47.310]  Okay, hold on.
[47:48.010 --> 47:48.230]  Sir.
[47:48.630 --> 47:49.670]  Thank you for your talk.
[47:49.850 --> 47:52.850]  I was curious about some of the topics here.
[47:53.510 --> 47:59.590]  Some of the things that concern me is the role of the military versus the local government, i.e., you know, who is your customer?
[47:59.590 --> 48:06.290]  You know, common perception is that the military sometimes is working for the defense contractors or the corporations.
[48:06.610 --> 48:12.870]  And when the military is engaged in local operations, you know, is a citizen their customer.
[48:14.050 --> 48:21.710]  The other thing is that the military, you know, has been really associated with waterboarding and urban assault training.
[48:23.330 --> 48:26.910]  And there is a provision in the military called the provost general.
[48:27.450 --> 48:33.350]  You know, Austin says, you know, at one time it was supposed to protect the constitution and the enforcement of treaties.
[48:33.910 --> 48:36.570]  And I think that's not happening anymore.
[48:37.130 --> 48:51.710]  And one other suggestion is that maybe the military can consider an open house for local citizens to meet the commanders and the soldiers, either on base or off base, as a way for citizens to know who the folks in the field are.
[48:51.910 --> 48:52.490]  Thank you.
[48:52.630 --> 48:53.350]  Thank you.
[48:53.730 --> 49:06.330]  I mean, one example, it was, I was told that the three largest tourist attractions in New York State were New York City, Niagara Falls, number two, West Point, number three.
[49:07.470 --> 49:10.050]  After 9-11, they locked the gates.
[49:10.050 --> 49:15.230]  And it's, you know, largely, they shut down basically all tourism significantly for many years.
[49:15.790 --> 49:17.850]  Now it's opening up, you can take a bus in or whatever.
[49:18.030 --> 49:19.750]  But again, it didn't help any, right?
[49:19.810 --> 49:23.790]  Everybody went down in lockdown mode to blur those lines.
[49:23.910 --> 49:27.970]  But I think you also raised a good point, the idea that this isn't just military, it's law enforcement.
[49:28.730 --> 49:35.210]  And I think that some of the things, because we have a special, there's a, I mean, we have access to those communities.
[49:35.450 --> 49:39.150]  I mean, we can come down and talk to the NYPD and they'll talk to us and vice versa, right?
[49:39.150 --> 49:40.490]  We've had some people up.
[49:40.610 --> 49:41.930]  So we can have discussions.
[49:42.150 --> 49:53.590]  We have access, kind of, we're in that circle, that if we're making progress or have materials to share and maybe start winning over some, some people in those communities, we can have some influence there.
[49:54.790 --> 49:56.630]  So, Gus, I'm down to how much time?
[49:57.130 --> 49:57.830]  Four minutes.
[49:57.870 --> 49:58.590]  Four minutes.
[49:58.750 --> 49:58.850]  Okay.
[49:59.790 --> 50:00.230]  Howdy.
[50:00.790 --> 50:10.190]  I'm a civil rights lawyer and I have to occasion, occasionally talk to people at VMI who are just like people at West Point except they're pissed off they didn't get to work at West Point.
[50:10.730 --> 50:11.950]  And about the Civil War.
[50:12.090 --> 50:13.010]  Our parking is horrible.
[50:13.610 --> 50:13.970]  Right.
[50:14.930 --> 50:17.930]  And so I've got a little bit of experience in trying to articulate these messages.
[50:18.370 --> 50:21.830]  Usually the first thing I open with is I say, you know, your job is to defend civilization.
[50:22.170 --> 50:24.310]  My job is to make a civilization worth defending.
[50:25.110 --> 50:27.210]  So there are kind of two halves to this.
[50:27.370 --> 50:35.850]  But the big thing I've found, the big obstacle I've found in trying to get them to grasp civil rights is that they're very procedural.
[50:36.170 --> 50:41.250]  In the military, people are very interested in what did you do or what are you going to do.
[50:41.830 --> 50:44.730]  And civil rights law is not about what you did or didn't do.
[50:45.010 --> 50:47.330]  There's two elements to a civil rights violation, right?
[50:47.430 --> 50:50.590]  There's the motivation for the action and there's the effect of the action.
[50:50.950 --> 50:51.750]  Motivation and effect.
[50:52.050 --> 50:54.610]  Nowhere in civil rights law does it ask the thing you actually did.
[50:55.550 --> 51:08.030]  And if you look at Jim Crow law, right, in the Jim Crow laws, it doesn't matter if you stop someone from voting because of their race or you stop them from voting because of a literacy test or you stop them from voting because their grandfather didn't vote in the county.
[51:08.410 --> 51:10.370]  All those things were motivated improperly.
[51:10.430 --> 51:13.150]  They were all motivated because they didn't like the race of the person.
[51:13.310 --> 51:16.830]  And they all had the effect of preventing people from voting based on race.
[51:17.350 --> 51:27.090]  And that's a huge hurdle because for people who are trying to, I mean, you talk about people saying, well, I don't want to do it or I don't want people to do it because they feel like they have to.
[51:28.230 --> 51:33.230]  Once you get them past the hurdle of understanding, it's not about cleverness.
[51:33.530 --> 51:36.270]  It's not about thinking, how do I get around this requirement?
[51:36.270 --> 51:37.490]  How do I get over this requirement?
[51:37.590 --> 51:38.830]  How do I get through this requirement?
[51:39.010 --> 51:41.090]  It's about actually doing the right thing.
[51:42.290 --> 51:43.790]  That's the big transformation.
[51:43.790 --> 51:45.410]  That's when they say, okay, aha, I get it.
[51:46.550 --> 51:48.730]  I'm not supposed to try to get behind the rule.
[51:48.910 --> 51:53.490]  I'm supposed to actually be part of the system doing the right thing from the beginning.
[51:53.490 --> 51:54.690]  Good, very good.
[51:54.850 --> 52:04.270]  And I would add that we try, not necessarily in the context of privacy and civil liberties, which is something we're all... but in general about ethical decision-making on the battlefield.
[52:04.990 --> 52:09.530]  We do... West Point does try and do that, to do the right thing when no one is looking, right?
[52:09.730 --> 52:18.970]  And it's... and... so maybe folding it under that would be another way we could... because there is actually a great deal of ethics training that goes on for leaders.
[52:19.910 --> 52:21.170]  So, Gus, one more question?
[52:21.470 --> 52:22.930]  Or should I... one more question?
[52:24.330 --> 52:25.630]  Thanks a lot for your talk.
[52:26.130 --> 52:35.110]  I'm sometimes involved in negotiations, and it's a really... like, it might be a really pedestrian comment of mine, I'm not sure, but the first step is finding commonality.
[52:35.930 --> 52:45.190]  And it strikes me that between the two communities, although the means are quite different, the ends are quite similar, I'm thinking particularly about if the military is all about security.
[52:45.870 --> 52:47.650]  Well, so is this community in a way.
[52:48.070 --> 52:50.290]  It's just that security is achieved through technical means.
[52:50.750 --> 52:56.410]  And if there's one community that knows about finding flaws in security and then patching them up and making it stronger, it's this one.
[52:56.610 --> 52:59.110]  So I'd start by trying to point out that commonality.
[52:59.310 --> 53:00.770]  And I'd also talk about freedom.
[53:01.190 --> 53:06.430]  I mean, as an Australian, I'm constantly amazed at the debate in this country, and it's about freedom.
[53:07.010 --> 53:08.430]  It's just the means are different.
[53:09.050 --> 53:19.610]  I would be looking at the military trying to preserve freedoms, and here people trying to preserve their individual freedoms, and just trying to point out those similarities.
[53:20.190 --> 53:21.990]  Oh, that's actually very insightful.
[53:22.170 --> 53:34.370]  And the idea of just... because I'm sure if we did some research on negotiation in general, there's other kind of strategies along those lines that could... because in some ways, we're doing negotiation, intellectually, at least, at least at first.
[53:34.990 --> 53:36.770]  Okay, so with that, I'll go ahead and wrap it up.
[53:36.890 --> 53:37.510]  Thank you so much.
[53:37.730 --> 53:38.410]  Very, very helpful.
[53:38.830 --> 53:39.810]  And cheers.