[00:00.000 --> 00:00.760]  This year.
[00:01.840 --> 00:04.420]  But you can also build smaller hackerspaces.
[00:04.640 --> 00:08.000]  Nick Farr and friends will be discussing building hackerspaces everywhere.
[00:08.540 --> 00:09.860]  Your excuses are invalid.
[00:10.480 --> 00:14.120]  But we do have an excuse for running a little bit late.
[00:14.280 --> 00:15.020]  I'm sorry about that.
[00:15.120 --> 00:16.400]  Some of the discussions have gone over.
[00:17.580 --> 00:23.700]  In the next room at midnight, Robert Steele will begin.
[00:23.920 --> 00:25.820]  That simulcast downstairs as well.
[00:25.980 --> 00:27.060]  And he goes for four hours.
[00:27.260 --> 00:29.600]  So it's not like you have to leave this thing if you're into this.
[00:30.000 --> 00:33.320]  So, without further ado, Nick Farr and friends.
[00:41.410 --> 00:42.590]  Wow, thank you very much.
[00:42.750 --> 00:49.810]  This talk is basically the ten most common excuses that I've heard for people not building hackerspaces throughout the country.
[00:50.030 --> 00:53.490]  I've been going to cons and talking about hackerspaces and the need to build hackerspaces.
[00:54.070 --> 01:01.510]  First, I wanted to give a round of applause to the people in the front here who are from HacDC who built a very large, successful hackerspace in DC in four months.
[01:01.570 --> 01:02.530]  Give them a huge round of applause.
[01:02.870 --> 01:04.890]  Please, thank you to HacDC.
[01:08.090 --> 01:11.930]  So, I also brought some friends up here who have built successful hackerspaces.
[01:12.410 --> 01:14.570]  And I'm going to be throwing to them for each of the questions.
[01:14.690 --> 01:21.230]  Just a reminder to our panelists, please keep the story that I'm asking about to two minutes so we have plenty of time for Q&A afterwards.
[01:22.010 --> 01:36.250]  But without any further ado, the most common excuse that I hear going to cons, especially not to cons, this one goes out to all of those guys in Pennsylvania who can't seem to find each other, the rural problem.
[01:36.910 --> 01:42.010]  A lot of you guys are saying, you know, I don't live in New York, I don't live in Washington DC, I don't live in San Francisco.
[01:42.710 --> 01:44.590]  How can I possibly start a hackerspace?
[01:44.950 --> 01:47.550]  Well, one, space is cheap.
[01:47.730 --> 01:54.170]  You can get a lot of really good industrial space for next to nothing compared to what you pay for in major cities.
[01:54.710 --> 02:00.150]  And I'm going to throw to my friend Tim from Texarkana who has a hackerspace in Texarkana, Texas.
[02:00.150 --> 02:01.070]  Tim, are you ready to go?
[02:01.410 --> 02:01.810]  Sure.
[02:02.110 --> 02:02.350]  All right.
[02:02.410 --> 02:04.510]  Tell us, how did you start a hackerspace in a rural area?
[02:04.810 --> 02:07.570]  Well, ours is more of an informal one.
[02:07.690 --> 02:10.070]  It's not as well, we're not a non-profit or anything.
[02:10.790 --> 02:11.450]  Mine's private.
[02:11.510 --> 02:12.730]  Ours is privately owned.
[02:12.870 --> 02:15.430]  There's just very few of us in a rural area.
[02:15.590 --> 02:22.570]  I bought some property about five years ago and it just happened to have like a nice steel shop warehouse building in the back.
[02:22.690 --> 02:24.230]  Somebody used to work on tractors in.
[02:25.130 --> 02:26.610]  So we use that.
[02:26.890 --> 02:32.530]  And one of the advantages, that's one of the advantages of a rural area is you can buy real estate really cheap.
[02:32.710 --> 02:35.190]  Like you can buy an acre of land with a shop for $5,000.
[02:35.190 --> 02:36.730]  So it's a little better than renting.
[02:37.390 --> 02:43.690]  We looked at a downtown space, 4,500 square foot in a downtown area for 400 a month.
[02:44.670 --> 02:49.050]  You know, that's, that's pretty ridiculous, you know, but we're not going to use that one yet.
[02:49.150 --> 02:51.570]  We're going to get a few more people together before that.
[02:52.350 --> 03:00.250]  But, uh, that's, uh, some of the, the low cost and, uh, well, where we live, we got an army surplus, uh, uh, a military base.
[03:00.370 --> 03:01.170]  They sell a lot of surplus.
[03:01.170 --> 03:07.430]  So if you look on our website, tktech.org and some of the pictures, you'll see a lot of surplus equipment.
[03:08.150 --> 03:15.210]  And, but one of the bad things about a rural area is like everybody says, it's hard to find other people that you trust, but you just got to be a little open.
[03:15.290 --> 03:17.970]  What we'll do, we'll have little parties and a party.
[03:18.050 --> 03:23.550]  Of course we've got free booze and drinks, but we just take donations, but we'll have about 50 or 60 people.
[03:23.870 --> 03:29.110]  But out of that, about five or six, we'll want to come out to meetings on Sunday and, you know, do something.
[03:29.370 --> 03:30.630]  And that's really about it.
[03:30.690 --> 03:37.290]  And I'll, one, one thing I think you forgot to mention, you can blow stuff up way out in the country.
[03:38.970 --> 03:39.630]  All right.
[03:41.690 --> 03:45.870]  I want all you guys out in Pennsylvania can't, by the way, Kansas City's coming online soon.
[03:46.090 --> 03:49.630]  I want to go to a grand opening at a hackerspace where they blow stuff up.
[03:49.630 --> 03:51.190]  You can only do that in the country.
[03:51.350 --> 03:52.350]  So quit making excuses.
[03:52.550 --> 03:53.110]  This is invalid.
[03:53.350 --> 03:54.050]  Texarkana approves it.
[03:54.290 --> 03:56.130]  We're not scared to take cars.
[03:56.210 --> 03:57.370]  We got four acres in the back.
[03:57.470 --> 04:00.730]  We'll take cars out, crash them together, run them into trees.
[04:01.190 --> 04:02.110]  We've built cannons.
[04:02.310 --> 04:06.410]  You just got to look into your local laws on the cannons and what you're allowed to build.
[04:06.530 --> 04:06.870]  But anyways.
[04:08.830 --> 04:09.230]  Awesome.
[04:09.830 --> 04:10.030]  All right.
[04:10.150 --> 04:14.350]  Getting to our second, the second most common excuse I hear, I live in a big city.
[04:14.490 --> 04:16.050]  Good spaces are really expensive.
[04:16.270 --> 04:24.590]  Well, in a big city, you have access to a lot more people that are already meeting in tech groups, that are already doing things with lugs, local things like that.
[04:26.150 --> 04:27.990]  You guys all meet each other at cons.
[04:28.130 --> 04:32.410]  At every single con that I go to, there's three people from the same city who come up to me who don't know each other.
[04:32.950 --> 04:33.930]  Get out there.
[04:34.250 --> 04:35.890]  Just go to different tech meetings.
[04:36.030 --> 04:37.010]  Reach outside of your group.
[04:37.150 --> 04:38.230]  We didn't know...
[04:38.230 --> 04:44.070]  HacDC got really big primarily through the Dorkbot DC list, which was cross-posted to the burners list.
[04:44.070 --> 04:47.590]  And the funny part about it is, HacDC has been open for four months.
[04:48.210 --> 04:53.110]  Of our 41 members, four months ago, I knew three of them.
[04:54.370 --> 04:56.910]  That's what the power of being in an urban area is.
[04:57.030 --> 04:59.390]  And I just wanted to also congratulate Hack Toronto.
[04:59.550 --> 05:00.330]  Give them a big round of applause.
[05:00.430 --> 05:03.230]  They signed a lease a couple of weeks before HOPE.
[05:05.790 --> 05:07.710]  So, Lee, tell us how you solved this problem.
[05:08.230 --> 05:09.850]  Well, so we kind of looked out.
[05:10.410 --> 05:14.090]  One of the things I was going to say is, you know, the right place will come along for the right price.
[05:15.190 --> 05:18.570]  We happened to get really lucky and it was the first place we looked at.
[05:18.850 --> 05:22.130]  So four days after starting to look, we had a lease.
[05:23.070 --> 05:28.850]  But we're paying, I mean, we're paying like three times what he was saying for a third, like less than a third of the space.
[05:29.290 --> 05:33.730]  And it's right downtown in a sort of like slightly sketchy neighborhood.
[05:33.770 --> 05:38.150]  But, and that's really the key is like, look for the right place in the right neighborhood.
[05:38.610 --> 05:40.510]  And you'll find a place you can afford.
[05:41.670 --> 05:43.850]  Look further out on transit.
[05:44.170 --> 05:47.750]  If you're in a bigger city, you're going to have hopefully decent transit, unless you're Ottawa.
[05:51.570 --> 05:53.130]  There's somebody from Ottawa here.
[05:53.550 --> 05:54.850]  Yeah, they only have buses.
[05:56.170 --> 05:58.890]  Go further out on transit, you'll find somewhere cheaper.
[05:59.290 --> 06:06.150]  Look in neighborhoods that might be a little bit more colorful than you might want to live in.
[06:06.390 --> 06:10.770]  But that will be totally fine for running a hackerspace because they'll be scared of your like sharks with lasers.
[06:11.310 --> 06:11.310]  So.
[06:12.570 --> 06:13.070]  All right.
[06:13.230 --> 06:13.690]  Thank you, Lee.
[06:13.990 --> 06:15.190]  Problem number three.
[06:16.870 --> 06:18.010]  The people problem.
[06:18.890 --> 06:24.190]  A lot, another, a lot of people say, well, I don't really know anybody who wants to start a hackerspace in my area.
[06:24.390 --> 06:25.030]  Get out.
[06:25.250 --> 06:28.830]  There are tons of meetings, Linux user groups, DEFCON groups, 2600 meetings.
[06:29.330 --> 06:31.270]  People are meeting and talking about tech.
[06:31.370 --> 06:32.010]  They're talking about art.
[06:32.010 --> 06:32.990]  They're talking about technology.
[06:33.190 --> 06:34.190]  They're talking about making.
[06:34.710 --> 06:39.050]  I mean, how many make meetup groups have just sprouted in the past two or three years?
[06:39.230 --> 06:40.150]  Tons of them in cities.
[06:40.410 --> 06:43.270]  These are the kind of people that you want involved in your hackerspace.
[06:44.550 --> 06:46.010]  Honestly, it's really easy to do.
[06:46.110 --> 06:46.870]  You don't have people at your house.
[06:47.030 --> 06:48.610]  Subscribe to all of their mailing lists.
[06:48.830 --> 06:49.670]  Start posting on them.
[06:49.770 --> 06:52.450]  Say, hey, I think, you know, I live in this city.
[06:52.530 --> 06:53.790]  We should start a hackerspace here.
[06:53.910 --> 06:54.990]  And eventually people will come.
[06:55.330 --> 06:56.830]  That's how HacDC got started.
[06:56.890 --> 07:00.670]  And I wanted to kick this one to my friend, Eric Michaud from Hack Chicago.
[07:00.670 --> 07:03.850]  They don't have a space just yet, but trust me, in a month, they will have one.
[07:04.170 --> 07:05.610]  Eric, how are you finding people in Chicago?
[07:06.710 --> 07:07.230]  Hey, everyone.
[07:08.070 --> 07:10.470]  Yeah, I was one of the original board members of HacDC.
[07:10.730 --> 07:16.190]  I originally thought I was moving to Hack, I mean, to DC, and I wanted to start a space there, but apparently I ended up moving to Chicago.
[07:16.490 --> 07:17.870]  And I knew absolutely no one there.
[07:17.990 --> 07:19.550]  And that's a big question for everyone.
[07:19.710 --> 07:21.230]  It's like, well, I know nobody.
[07:21.470 --> 07:22.450]  I mean, who do I meet?
[07:22.570 --> 07:23.390]  Like, go to the meetings.
[07:23.730 --> 07:24.050]  2600.
[07:24.430 --> 07:24.750]  Dorkbot.
[07:24.950 --> 07:29.050]  I mean, there's Synchronicity of Chicago, which is their Burning Man local group.
[07:29.170 --> 07:34.550]  And there's basically for every party, thousands of people show up and they basically bring a sculpture or something else.
[07:34.690 --> 07:36.630]  Here deals with embedded systems or something else.
[07:36.910 --> 07:39.350]  So you have a whole cross section of a ton of different people.
[07:40.330 --> 07:41.590]  And I was absolutely amazed.
[07:41.670 --> 07:45.130]  Within a month, I met over about 100 people that were like, I have money.
[07:45.210 --> 07:46.030]  I want to throw this down.
[07:46.150 --> 07:47.050]  I want to do something.
[07:47.290 --> 07:49.330]  And Eric, how long ago did you move to Chicago?
[07:49.670 --> 07:50.310]  Just January.
[07:50.610 --> 07:51.210]  Yeah, exactly.
[07:51.210 --> 07:51.630]  Yeah.
[07:51.850 --> 07:52.590]  So I moved there in January.
[07:53.090 --> 07:54.890]  I actually left January 4th.
[07:54.950 --> 07:56.710]  Next day, I went to the first 2600 meeting.
[07:57.730 --> 08:03.950]  Our first 10 members that are signing up right now, that are throwing out all the money, I met that day at the meeting.
[08:04.090 --> 08:07.030]  So if anyone says, I don't know, you got to be social.
[08:07.130 --> 08:07.910]  I'll be absolutely honest.
[08:08.130 --> 08:10.330]  The thing is, most of the people here, I mean, not most people.
[08:13.030 --> 08:13.870]  Hold me out on that.
[08:14.110 --> 08:15.570]  No, but the thing is, let's be honest.
[08:17.250 --> 08:19.910]  At one point in your life, you're like, I don't like talking to people.
[08:20.030 --> 08:22.330]  I don't like socializing.
[08:22.330 --> 08:23.290]  It's hard at first.
[08:23.430 --> 08:24.170]  You don't like rejection.
[08:24.350 --> 08:26.210]  But the thing is, you got to keep putting yourself out there.
[08:26.630 --> 08:27.790]  You got to say, like, here's your ideals.
[08:27.870 --> 08:28.610]  This is what you want to do.
[08:28.790 --> 08:29.670]  Put your goals out there.
[08:29.790 --> 08:33.210]  People admire people that say, I want to do big things.
[08:34.070 --> 08:40.070]  And if you keep following to your word and don't back down, people will realize, wow, this person's not full of shit.
[08:41.550 --> 08:43.090]  Let's be honest here.
[08:43.730 --> 08:45.030]  HacDC is now because of that.
[08:45.710 --> 08:51.610]  If anyone wants any proof, why we're up here right now is because of hackerspaces, because people said, I want to do something.
[08:52.230 --> 08:53.110]  Let's get some people together.
[08:53.350 --> 08:54.030]  We got the people together.
[08:54.170 --> 08:54.750]  Put the money down.
[08:54.930 --> 08:55.390]  We got spaces.
[08:55.510 --> 08:56.110]  We got projects.
[08:56.810 --> 08:58.210]  That's what we're doing right now with Hack Chicago.
[08:58.430 --> 09:01.010]  We started up basically... we actually started looking a few days ago.
[09:01.170 --> 09:02.450]  We already got a number of prime spots.
[09:02.570 --> 09:04.750]  We have about 40 people that all want to throw down a bunch of money.
[09:04.850 --> 09:06.830]  Eric, you're kind of going over your two minutes.
[09:08.810 --> 09:10.950]  I knew he was going to do that.
[09:11.130 --> 09:13.090]  I put Jens right next to him so we'd throw him off stage.
[09:13.290 --> 09:14.170]  But thank you.
[09:14.310 --> 09:15.510]  You all had very valid points.
[09:15.590 --> 09:16.590]  You're going to be covered in other problems.
[09:16.810 --> 09:20.170]  But the one important thing, start meeting on Tuesday.
[09:20.810 --> 09:24.670]  If you post out all these lists, we're meeting about hackerspaces.
[09:24.750 --> 09:25.630]  We want to build a hackerspace here.
[09:25.750 --> 09:30.510]  We're meeting on Tuesday, set goals, accomplish those goals, and just meet on Tuesday.
[09:30.870 --> 09:33.270]  Of course, not everybody's going to be able to make it every Tuesday.
[09:33.470 --> 09:34.990]  But you know... That's the point.
[09:35.430 --> 09:35.830]  Exactly.
[09:36.370 --> 09:37.790]  Everybody knows when the meeting is.
[09:39.370 --> 09:39.770]  Four.
[09:40.150 --> 09:47.890]  By the way, I have to add, because we are talking about Dorkbot, and Dorkbot is a really, really, really cool thing and a good place to meet people.
[09:48.190 --> 09:51.910]  The guy who actually invented or started Dorkbot is in the audience.
[09:52.070 --> 09:53.590]  And I think he should get a big applause.
[09:53.730 --> 09:54.770]  Give him a huge round of applause.
[10:03.110 --> 10:04.430]  The politics problem.
[10:04.710 --> 10:06.510]  Of course, this is the hacker scene.
[10:06.690 --> 10:07.730]  There is naturally drama.
[10:08.790 --> 10:11.130]  The Germans actually had a very simple solution for this.
[10:11.390 --> 10:12.910]  He who is doing is right.
[10:13.450 --> 10:14.730]  Avoid bike shed problems.
[10:14.990 --> 10:15.370]  And... Or she.
[10:15.770 --> 10:16.650]  Or she.
[10:16.810 --> 10:17.050]  Thank you.
[10:18.030 --> 10:18.510]  Okay.
[10:18.690 --> 10:20.010]  She or he who does is right.
[10:20.150 --> 10:21.130]  Thank you, Ali, my fiancé.
[10:21.870 --> 10:22.330]  No.
[10:22.670 --> 10:22.850]  Sheep.
[10:22.910 --> 10:23.690]  What sheep?
[10:24.630 --> 10:25.110]  Nothing.
[10:27.890 --> 10:30.570]  The point is, find people who do.
[10:30.890 --> 10:32.370]  In this scene, there are two kinds of people.
[10:32.470 --> 10:34.010]  There's people who talk and people who do.
[10:34.290 --> 10:35.950]  Give authority to people who do.
[10:36.150 --> 10:37.250]  Let them do things.
[10:37.250 --> 10:41.410]  Even if they don't do it exactly the right way, if they get it done, they are right.
[10:43.130 --> 10:45.810]  And just endless political conversations.
[10:46.130 --> 10:46.990]  Bring them to a close.
[10:47.210 --> 10:47.950]  Resolve issues.
[10:48.350 --> 10:49.330]  I wanted to give...
[10:49.330 --> 10:58.350]  I wanted to give this one to Mitch to explain how he solved a problem regarding membership in working out the bylaws for Noisebridge, the hackerspace in San Francisco.
[10:58.650 --> 11:00.150]  Mitch, could you tell us that story real quick?
[11:00.950 --> 11:01.350]  Yeah.
[11:01.610 --> 11:06.150]  Well, that was one of the things we work with... try to work with consensus process.
[11:06.490 --> 11:09.190]  So, I find with groups that I've been in... Excuse my voice.
[11:09.350 --> 11:10.890]  I've been yelling for the last day and a half.
[11:13.490 --> 11:16.590]  Consensus process brings people in so everyone feels involved.
[11:16.870 --> 11:23.650]  It can feel a little frustrating at times because it moves kind of slowly or it seems like it's moving slowly.
[11:23.910 --> 11:28.750]  But you can go through really difficult problems and everyone feels like they can live with it afterwards.
[11:29.570 --> 11:32.710]  The thing that's been taking us the longest is to come up with our bylaws.
[11:32.990 --> 11:38.810]  In California, as with many other states, there's a legal definition for member.
[11:39.170 --> 11:41.290]  And we call that member with a capital M.
[11:41.530 --> 11:49.590]  We want to be a membership organization and that would be not necessarily a legally identified member by the state of California.
[11:50.050 --> 12:01.150]  So we were trying to figure out, well, should we conform to California law with little M members and big M members or not?
[12:01.150 --> 12:15.470]  Well, it turns out that if you don't have legally defined members in the state of California, you can't get rid of a board or a board member that is maybe overstepping their power or just isn't doing their job.
[12:15.670 --> 12:18.270]  It takes a vote of the board to do it.
[12:18.970 --> 12:27.530]  So going without capital M members, we were on the risk of having a board that kind of gets out of touch with membership.
[12:28.130 --> 12:37.790]  If we don't have capital M or if we have capital M members, there were a lot of people who are concerned that clicks would form.
[12:38.450 --> 12:48.170]  And if a click forms, then they could just, as soon as the clip gets a majority and can bulldoze their way around, then they get rid of a board member that's just like the scapegoat du jour.
[12:48.390 --> 12:53.990]  And there have been a lot of people in lefty organizations who have told horror stories about that.
[12:54.150 --> 12:58.090]  So either way, there's, there's upsides and downsides.
[12:58.290 --> 13:03.630]  So we just went around and around for actually a few weeks talking about this as the major topic.
[13:04.110 --> 13:14.250]  And after a while, everyone who had strong opinions one way or the other had voiced them and everyone felt we could live with having capital M members.
[13:14.610 --> 13:28.470]  And there was a lot of discussion with hacker groups around the world actually using email and IRC, which helped us get to that decision that we could do locally with our consensus process.
[13:28.670 --> 13:34.090]  And we all feel, if I can speak for the group, uh, we all feel really good about that.
[13:34.330 --> 13:43.910]  And we're about to incorporate as a legal non-profit tax exempt organization in the state of California, which means we can get a bank account, which means we can rent a space.
[13:45.150 --> 13:45.530]  So...
[13:50.530 --> 14:03.080]  also give him a huge round of applause for the microcontroller workshop that he's been doing in the hackerspace village, bringing tons... huge... Mitch, thank, thank you so much for that.
[14:03.180 --> 14:03.680]  That is awesome.
[14:03.800 --> 14:05.280]  And congratulations again to Noisebridge.
[14:05.480 --> 14:06.320]  And moving on...
[14:08.060 --> 14:09.140]  the time problem.
[14:09.620 --> 14:13.560]  A lot of... Okay, maybe you have the money, maybe you have the people, but nobody seems to have the time.
[14:15.100 --> 14:17.820]  Once you have a group of people, spread the work out.
[14:18.020 --> 14:20.600]  Don't let any one person take on too much responsibility.
[14:21.280 --> 14:25.780]  Even if it's a small amount of time that you can contribute, use that time to find other people who have the time.
[14:26.360 --> 14:31.920]  College students, especially, they might not have the money, but they have nothing but time in a lot of ways.
[14:32.080 --> 14:43.460]  I know some college students might disagree with me, but... And honestly, you don't have to have a space to start running some events and getting people involved and making it... making building a hackerspace a time priority.
[14:44.160 --> 14:47.860]  I wanted to throw this one to Jens Oleg from the C4 in Cologne.
[14:47.960 --> 14:51.380]  He started that hackerspace, and now perhaps he doesn't have that much time to do it.
[14:51.480 --> 14:54.600]  But Jens, please tell us, how did you guys solve the time problem?
[14:55.260 --> 15:00.400]  Well, we had very good results with something that...
[15:01.760 --> 15:07.260]  someone came up with presenting a challenge for younger people.
[15:07.500 --> 15:15.060]  We repeat this about once a year, where we have an interesting problem for younger people.
[15:15.200 --> 15:22.080]  We actually published that we're going to do that over the course of a month or so.
[15:22.860 --> 15:25.720]  And it gets in all the newsletters.
[15:25.820 --> 15:30.620]  We tried to publish that to schools in Cologne as well, but that didn't work out so well.
[15:31.660 --> 15:39.700]  Anyway, it is a challenge that is especially to younger people under the age of 23.
[15:40.080 --> 15:44.600]  And this year, we're doing something with microcontrollers.
[15:45.380 --> 15:58.880]  Before that, there were also software problems like designing a chat protocol that would be tunneled over ICMP so that administrators at your school couldn't read what you're chatting about or couldn't see that you're chatting.
[16:00.040 --> 16:10.160]  And the idea is just to have young people at the space, have them work on a project that is maybe a bit too hard for them to solve alone.
[16:10.180 --> 16:11.820]  So they would learn teamwork.
[16:12.440 --> 16:21.100]  And after that, most of the people who just want to pose or just want to talk big, they drop out.
[16:21.520 --> 16:30.340]  And you are left with the highly motivated young people that you can, after that, hand over the space to, to run it.
[16:32.200 --> 16:32.700]  Excellent.
[16:32.880 --> 16:33.800]  Moving right along.
[16:35.020 --> 16:36.140]  The money problem.
[16:36.420 --> 16:40.080]  This one, oddly enough, I hear it less often than the time problem.
[16:40.240 --> 16:43.900]  You know, we can't... Wait, you know, how are we supposed to do this blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
[16:44.040 --> 16:47.980]  Do exactly what... Oh wait, do we have anyone from NYC Resistor on the panel?
[16:50.400 --> 16:50.900]  Uh-oh.
[16:51.060 --> 16:51.220]  Whoops.
[16:52.580 --> 16:53.900]  Actually, no, Rose is here.
[16:54.020 --> 16:54.540]  Rose, get up here.
[16:55.060 --> 16:58.240]  Give a round of applause for pinch hitting because I'm just bringing this up.
[17:02.720 --> 17:03.860]  Come on, get it here.
[17:04.360 --> 17:05.000]  Oh, over there.
[17:05.180 --> 17:05.320]  Okay.
[17:06.540 --> 17:07.940]  So what would you like me to say about money?
[17:08.320 --> 17:09.060]  Oh, well... No, come, come.
[17:10.400 --> 17:11.960]  Just a couple points I wanted to hit here.
[17:12.140 --> 17:13.280]  Start small.
[17:14.840 --> 17:19.480]  NYC Resistor, New York, probably the most expensive place to start a hackerspace.
[17:19.720 --> 17:22.760]  They did it by starting small and getting people to throw money down.
[17:23.120 --> 17:30.120]  Once people started throwing money down with nothing more than a dream to try to build to one day acquire a hackerspace, that made it real.
[17:30.300 --> 17:33.300]  That made people engaged and involved in a short amount of time.
[17:33.520 --> 17:36.500]  They went out and they built a very successful hackerspace in Brooklyn.
[17:36.900 --> 17:39.540]  The other important thing about money is stay independent.
[17:40.120 --> 17:41.580]  It's great that people donate stuff.
[17:41.720 --> 17:50.120]  It's great that you have donors and friends and people who are donating, contributing to you on a monthly basis or giving you huge one-time donations.
[17:50.320 --> 17:59.700]  But make sure that your rent, your insurance, your utilities are covered by member dues or covered somehow by the people who are directly involved in the organization.
[18:00.020 --> 18:10.620]  Because one day all of that funding may dry up for one reason or another, but if you have that continual base that's provided by the members and the people actively participating in the hackerspaces, you're not going to lose it no matter what happens.
[18:11.780 --> 18:13.800]  And NYC Resistor, they started small.
[18:13.960 --> 18:15.840]  They are operating in a very expensive environment.
[18:16.000 --> 18:25.720]  So Rose, could you talk quickly a little bit about how NYC Resistor got started, how they got their space going, and how they had to increase their dues lately to cover their expenses and stay independent?
[18:26.640 --> 18:34.620]  Some of you may have already heard parts of this before, but NYC Resistor started with nine people who each put up a thousand dollars.
[18:35.400 --> 18:39.800]  That was so that we would have enough money to cover about three months operating expenses.
[18:40.740 --> 18:46.860]  Obviously that was for some of those people that was a bigger amount of money than for others.
[18:47.080 --> 18:55.800]  But as Nick pointed out, putting up that amount of money then really made us be, you know, really invested in making sure that the space worked.
[18:56.400 --> 19:01.060]  Our dues per month have just gone up to $75 a month.
[19:01.300 --> 19:20.240]  That isn't because, you know, anything terrible has happened, but partly because we want to make sure that we're keeping that three months of rent and operating expenses as a cushion at all times so that nothing terrible is going to happen and let us risk the space that we've worked so hard to build.
[19:21.340 --> 19:28.500]  Another thing I can say about money is that we make sure that decisions about money are made as a group.
[19:29.300 --> 19:32.560]  You know, Mitch was talking about consensus and that's very important for us.
[19:32.880 --> 19:47.500]  And when something has come up recently, buying a laser, which was something that's very expensive, a huge capital expense, we decided that that would be funded by the people who were most excited about having a laser.
[19:47.740 --> 19:58.040]  And so that wasn't something that was coming out of our monthly dues, but something that people contributed to specifically because they wanted a laser in the space.
[19:58.540 --> 20:02.940]  And, you know, the details of how we've worked that out, you know, you can ask us later.
[20:03.440 --> 20:14.320]  But that was something where we separated out a huge capital expense and we're going to make it happen, but it isn't part of our, you know, monthly expenditures.
[20:15.160 --> 20:15.660]  Exactly.
[20:15.940 --> 20:18.900]  The other thing is, you know, a lot of people complain about time.
[20:19.100 --> 20:20.760]  People with not a lot of time have a lot of money.
[20:21.600 --> 20:22.440]  Find those people.
[20:22.700 --> 20:23.460]  Make them members.
[20:23.760 --> 20:25.900]  We have a lot of silent members in HacDC and they're wonderful.
[20:26.060 --> 20:29.800]  Also, Rose, I wanted to ask you, do you know the NYC Resistor theme song?
[20:30.140 --> 20:30.760]  Can you sing it?
[20:34.290 --> 20:36.130]  The theme song that Bree had.
[20:36.290 --> 20:39.130]  I will try to do it if you can't, but I really would like you to do it if you can.
[20:39.550 --> 20:40.350]  I can try it with you.
[20:40.770 --> 20:44.070]  Apparently, I'm not part of the inner circle that knows the theme song.
[20:44.070 --> 20:44.670]  You don't know it.
[20:46.030 --> 20:48.290]  I'm not even a member of NYC Resistor.
[20:48.430 --> 20:48.910]  I know it.
[20:49.110 --> 20:52.290]  I don't know what favors you offered him, but you're going to have to do it for me.
[20:56.930 --> 20:57.850]  Johannes, do you know it?
[20:59.510 --> 21:02.810]  I only know it's... there's the term laser in it, isn't it?
[21:02.910 --> 21:03.710]  Yeah, it's...
[21:03.710 --> 21:04.770]  We want a laser.
[21:04.910 --> 21:06.130]  We want a laser or something like that.
[21:06.130 --> 21:06.930]  No, no, it's...
[21:06.930 --> 21:09.130]  If I remember... It's so American.
[21:09.450 --> 21:10.230]  We want a laser.
[21:10.450 --> 21:10.990]  We want a laser.
[21:14.280 --> 21:17.280]  If I remember correctly, it's... I want a grazer.
[21:18.180 --> 21:19.340]  NYC Resistor.
[21:19.880 --> 21:21.020]  We want a laser.
[21:23.840 --> 21:25.280]  Quite literally, okay.
[21:26.820 --> 21:27.840]  There's no melody.
[21:28.200 --> 21:29.000]  There's no rhyme.
[21:30.000 --> 21:30.660]  There's...
[21:30.660 --> 21:31.720]  But, but, yeah.
[21:33.980 --> 21:35.660]  I'm not going to do that when I'm on a camera.
[21:35.860 --> 21:36.740]  I'd like to stay employed.
[21:36.880 --> 21:36.900]  Laser.
[21:38.240 --> 21:44.280]  Okay, the seventh, the seventh most common problem when I hear, you know, I don't have any furniture, tools, or equipment.
[21:44.520 --> 21:47.920]  I don't know how to insert whatever you want here.
[21:48.120 --> 21:50.000]  I just know how to insert whatever you want there.
[21:53.440 --> 21:56.080]  Oh god, you guys took that really the wrong way.
[21:58.420 --> 22:08.220]  But, but the point of the matter is, if you have a space, if you actually lease some place for people to gather and do cool things, you will get a lot of stuff.
[22:08.760 --> 22:12.660]  When HacDC started, we had our first big event was a parts party.
[22:12.900 --> 22:19.020]  We sent out an invitation to everybody in all the different tech communities that we knew about in DC to say, hey, we need parts.
[22:19.080 --> 22:19.700]  We need equipment.
[22:19.820 --> 22:20.500]  We need stuff.
[22:22.000 --> 22:24.040]  This is... Bring it on this Sunday.
[22:24.320 --> 22:25.520]  They're bringing on this Sunday.
[22:25.520 --> 22:29.140]  And we got tons and tons and tons of stuff.
[22:29.620 --> 22:31.020]  More stuff than we knew what to do with it.
[22:31.100 --> 22:34.400]  And over the next couple of weeks, we acquired a lot more stuff.
[22:35.380 --> 22:37.380]  Just a quick previews of this.
[22:37.480 --> 22:41.020]  If you have a space, you will probably have to throw out some of that stuff.
[22:41.400 --> 22:43.180]  Or try to sell it at cons.
[22:43.420 --> 22:45.320]  And it will... And it will make somebody...
[22:45.320 --> 22:46.060]  Do not allow.
[22:46.520 --> 22:52.240]  But once... But once you actually have a space and people are involved and they know about it, they will contribute to you.
[22:52.580 --> 22:54.960]  Far From The Hactory is going to talk a little bit more about this.
[22:54.960 --> 22:58.600]  And about, you know, just... Once you build it, they will come.
[22:58.700 --> 22:59.560]  You will get enough stuff.
[22:59.660 --> 23:02.140]  There are only a few things that you might need to get enough of.
[23:02.200 --> 23:02.380]  Go ahead.
[23:02.640 --> 23:02.960]  All right.
[23:03.080 --> 23:06.260]  So, Philadelphia is like New York City's older, ugly sister.
[23:07.780 --> 23:10.720]  Really cool, really nice, but doesn't get all the flashiness.
[23:11.480 --> 23:14.700]  So, yeah, we, you know, we're short on space.
[23:14.900 --> 23:19.480]  We're basically are umbrellaed by a non-profit computer recycling group.
[23:19.860 --> 23:23.200]  And it was just a case of just start things rolling.
[23:23.640 --> 23:25.060]  You know, we didn't have expertise.
[23:25.260 --> 23:26.560]  There wasn't a whole lot of interest.
[23:26.680 --> 23:29.480]  It was just three guys who sat around and said, let's get something going.
[23:29.740 --> 23:31.600]  And, you know, we just sat down and started.
[23:31.780 --> 23:33.620]  And a lot of times we go to order class.
[23:33.720 --> 23:36.480]  Somebody orders out of their own pocket and they order four extra kits.
[23:36.560 --> 23:37.940]  Well, now we have four extra kits sitting around.
[23:38.020 --> 23:41.080]  So when somebody says, hey, I want to do this, they don't have to wait a week for a part.
[23:41.180 --> 23:42.140]  You know, it's right there.
[23:43.620 --> 23:45.240]  It's just little things that add up.
[23:45.520 --> 23:49.020]  And, frankly, it comes down to the only thing that you're really short on is an imagination.
[23:49.180 --> 23:54.940]  If you want to do something and there's a problem and you can't figure it out, you're looking at it at the wrong angle or you need somebody else's opinion.
[23:55.520 --> 23:58.500]  Because any problem you are into, you can get around somehow.
[23:58.660 --> 24:00.780]  You can pull somebody else in from a different community.
[24:01.100 --> 24:02.680]  You can borrow a piece of equipment.
[24:02.860 --> 24:04.960]  You can pull in with your friends and buy it.
[24:05.060 --> 24:12.320]  You know, the only thing you're ever really short on is, you know, enough creativity and enough drive to route around that situation.
[24:13.540 --> 24:13.940]  Awesome.
[24:14.160 --> 24:14.440]  Thank you.
[24:15.560 --> 24:18.420]  The next problem, reaching out to people.
[24:19.700 --> 24:22.900]  A lot of people get really possessive about their stuff.
[24:24.440 --> 24:28.500]  People, for some reason, people aren't too terribly trusting.
[24:28.720 --> 24:31.340]  A lot, you know, people will come up and ask me, it's like, yeah, I've got all this stuff.
[24:31.460 --> 24:33.620]  I've got enough stuff to hard attack or space between my three friends.
[24:33.740 --> 24:35.720]  But I don't want to share it with people.
[24:35.720 --> 24:39.300]  Like, they might break it or do something to it or whatever.
[24:39.920 --> 24:41.900]  This is a completely invalid excuse.
[24:42.140 --> 24:50.560]  Like I said, far away, 90% of the people that are involved in HacDC, I just met four months ago or sooner than that.
[24:50.920 --> 24:52.560]  We're all sharing our stuff there.
[24:52.760 --> 24:53.300]  We all have it.
[24:53.380 --> 24:57.940]  And because we're all equally contributing, we're all watching out for each other's stuff.
[24:58.120 --> 25:03.520]  If you start a membership organization where people are throwing down real money to support it, they will watch out for it.
[25:04.280 --> 25:05.340]  Just a quick example.
[25:05.580 --> 25:10.980]  We have a refrigerator that's filled with soda, Gatorade, bottled water, things like that.
[25:11.580 --> 25:16.600]  And then when I first proposed to everybody in the group saying, yeah, we'll just put a little cup for money in there.
[25:16.960 --> 25:19.320]  And when you take a soda out, put some money in.
[25:19.540 --> 25:22.680]  And, you know, that's how we'll pay for and reimburse the soda.
[25:22.820 --> 25:26.640]  When I first proposed that, everybody looked at me like I was insane.
[25:26.760 --> 25:27.400]  They said, what?
[25:28.060 --> 25:29.200]  You're going to trust people?
[25:29.320 --> 25:31.100]  Like, people are going to put money in?
[25:31.740 --> 25:33.800]  And honestly, we always run an overage.
[25:34.160 --> 25:36.340]  You know, we have not had a problem with theft there.
[25:36.400 --> 25:41.360]  We actually use the money that's generated from that to pay for pizza on our Tuesday meetings and things like that.
[25:41.700 --> 25:42.100]  It's...
[25:42.100 --> 25:43.160]  If you give...
[25:43.160 --> 25:49.400]  If you show people trust, they will take it and they will act like trustworthy, responsible people.
[25:50.060 --> 25:51.820]  Jens has some experience with this.
[25:53.040 --> 25:54.920]  Just bring it on him because I didn't want to...
[25:54.920 --> 25:57.840]  Because, again, I don't have my panelists from NYC Resistor here.
[25:57.980 --> 26:02.100]  But if you just show people trust, they will take care of the hackerspace.
[26:02.380 --> 26:04.220]  They will take care of the tools and they won't break it.
[26:04.900 --> 26:05.960]  Can you talk about that real quickly?
[26:06.780 --> 26:07.400]  I agree.
[26:11.380 --> 26:31.680]  Well, one thing that we have done, and apparently that has also been used in HacDC, was we use, we get a lot of our budget from selling drinks at the hackerspace.
[26:32.140 --> 26:45.600]  And, yeah, apparently a lot of American visitors we had were surprised at the fact that in order to buy that drinks, you would just have to throw in the money and the fridge.
[26:45.600 --> 26:47.540]  And then it worked like that.
[26:49.540 --> 26:54.580]  That's a small way to trust and apparently it works out, yeah.
[26:55.580 --> 27:03.320]  The other thing that we do at HacDC is all of our public tools and equipment like that, there's a standing rule that if you don't know how to use it, ask somebody how to use it.
[27:04.100 --> 27:08.500]  People know how to use all... there's at least one or two members who know how to use every single tool that we have in HacDC.
[27:08.780 --> 27:13.700]  And those one or two members have a responsibility to show all of the other members how to use that responsibly.
[27:14.320 --> 27:15.840]  That kind of thing really works.
[27:16.800 --> 27:27.040]  So, mentorship and teaching people and showing people how to do things, building knowledge and then filling in gaps in other people's knowledge is one of the biggest reasons that hackerspaces should exist.
[27:27.380 --> 27:32.320]  But moving right along... we're doing really well... oh, whoops.
[27:33.020 --> 27:35.520]  I have to talk about the problem, of course.
[27:37.820 --> 27:44.920]  again, another problem of just straight up... perhaps the first one was more stupidity, but the second one was just straight out theft.
[27:45.320 --> 27:50.760]  A lot of people, if they're not possessive about their tools, they're possessive about the space, they're possessive about their membership requirements.
[27:51.080 --> 27:55.840]  A lot of people will come up to me and say, I can't just let anybody become a member.
[27:56.380 --> 28:03.220]  I have to carefully screen people, make sure they're not freaks, you know, how can I trust anybody?
[28:03.580 --> 28:11.880]  We have to They have an exclusive membership because, you know, what if people that they don't know, again, most of the people involved in HackDC I met less than four months ago.
[28:12.200 --> 28:16.400]  And the MetaLab in Austria, he's actually prepared for this one, has experienced it.
[28:16.480 --> 28:18.060]  They have over a hundred members.
[28:18.440 --> 28:27.700]  Yeah, I guess the MetaLab is probably, like, population-wise, like, maybe the biggest hack space on the planet.
[28:28.000 --> 28:30.240]  And, I mean, of course, we have problems.
[28:30.640 --> 28:31.880]  You have problems, too.
[28:32.060 --> 28:33.380]  You live in a freeish country.
[28:33.380 --> 28:40.160]  And we have some problems with freedomness, too.
[28:40.560 --> 28:40.720]  Okay.
[28:42.160 --> 28:47.400]  The problem is, I have to go back a little bit in history because the hack spaces, the first hack spaces,
[28:50.460 --> 28:58.180]  were in Europe, in the German-speaking countries and in the Dutch-speaking country.
[28:58.180 --> 29:00.320]  And there was...
[29:05.520 --> 29:07.360]  Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, of course, of course.
[29:07.740 --> 29:08.280]  Okay.
[29:08.620 --> 29:09.160]  Europe.
[29:10.480 --> 29:11.160]  Fantasy.
[29:11.900 --> 29:12.060]  Okay.
[29:13.220 --> 29:13.900]  Good.
[29:14.760 --> 29:15.920]  So, okay.
[29:16.140 --> 29:24.300]  So, the European hacker movement shares a similar time span with many, many alternative projects.
[29:25.200 --> 29:30.860]  And there's a clear connection between, for example, the squatting scene in Europe and the hacker scene.
[29:31.380 --> 29:36.960]  That may be astounding here in the States, but there is a common basis about that.
[29:37.060 --> 29:41.720]  And many, many hack spaces and many, many hackers are actually of, like, they have a leftist background.
[29:41.720 --> 29:48.980]  So, especially in a pretty open field as HackerDom, you, of course, face problems.
[29:49.520 --> 29:53.460]  And sometimes, you just have to find out how to kick people out.
[29:53.660 --> 29:54.020]  Okay.
[29:54.780 --> 29:56.800]  Or if you should kick people out.
[29:56.960 --> 30:04.220]  In the MetaLab, we are pretty much a mixture between a hack space and a club, or a youth club, I would call it.
[30:04.220 --> 30:09.300]  We have at least, like, I would say, 200 members, 100 of those members paying.
[30:09.660 --> 30:09.880]  Okay.
[30:10.320 --> 30:15.000]  So, we have people who come to our space who are actually not real members.
[30:15.200 --> 30:16.560]  They just show up sometimes.
[30:17.260 --> 30:20.200]  And we call the problem the hippie problem.
[30:21.240 --> 30:21.740]  Okay.
[30:21.920 --> 30:24.540]  So, how do we deal with the hippie problem?
[30:25.020 --> 30:31.940]  What happens if a guy just only shows up because he wants to smoke weed or whatever else?
[30:32.140 --> 30:32.240]  Okay.
[30:32.240 --> 30:34.320]  So, pardon?
[30:37.100 --> 30:38.140]  Yeah, of course, yeah.
[30:38.280 --> 30:40.520]  You smoke the weed and you play Nintendo.
[30:42.040 --> 30:44.780]  And you're really bad playing Nintendo when you're on weed.
[30:46.780 --> 30:50.460]  So, I have to tell you, we don't have a problem for that.
[30:50.640 --> 30:53.520]  A problem solving, like, thing.
[30:53.740 --> 30:55.020]  It's a highly social problem.
[30:55.140 --> 30:57.140]  And I think, what's back there?
[31:03.250 --> 31:03.770]  Apple.
[31:03.990 --> 31:05.030]  They are cultists.
[31:10.230 --> 31:10.750]  Okay.
[31:12.150 --> 31:25.150]  So, I mean, I only can say that if you want to create a hack space, it depends, really depends on how big it is, how many people are there, and what is your special purpose.
[31:25.150 --> 31:30.350]  I mean, the MetaLab in Vienna is a mixture between a youth club and a hack space.
[31:30.650 --> 31:34.350]  So, we have different problems than, for example, NYC Resistor.
[31:34.530 --> 31:37.790]  I mean, we have around 200 people or even more coming to our space.
[31:38.170 --> 31:40.210]  NYC Resistor, 28 members.
[31:40.210 --> 31:41.830]  And they're handpicked.
[31:42.130 --> 31:44.910]  There's a whole world between.
[31:45.210 --> 31:50.410]  Of course, we do cool stuff at MetaLab and there's cool stuff happening at NYC Resistor.
[31:50.570 --> 31:53.990]  But you can imagine, there are completely different problems concerning trust.
[31:55.910 --> 31:56.770]  What's that?
[31:57.090 --> 31:57.670]  What's that?
[31:57.670 --> 31:57.690]  Oh!
[32:03.190 --> 32:03.850]  More!
[32:08.450 --> 32:09.950]  It's a PDS!
[32:14.670 --> 32:15.990]  So, uh...
[32:15.990 --> 32:18.490]  Let this be a future lesson to you.
[32:18.570 --> 32:21.290]  Never let your last speaker be a performance artist.
[32:25.030 --> 32:25.730]  I am not!
[32:25.890 --> 32:26.450]  I'm a scientist!
[32:28.690 --> 32:29.410]  So, but...
[32:30.590 --> 32:32.790]  May I introduce to you, that's Astera.
[32:33.130 --> 32:34.730]  She's also part of the MetaLab.
[32:36.350 --> 32:36.710]  And...
[32:42.020 --> 32:44.840]  You know, the 10th most common problem I had was the hacker problem.
[32:45.020 --> 32:46.280]  But ever since I came...
[32:46.280 --> 32:48.520]  You know, coming to this conference, people have asked me a lot.
[32:48.740 --> 32:51.460]  You know, we don't have any central collaboration space.
[32:51.600 --> 32:52.640]  You know, there are all these hackerspaces.
[32:52.640 --> 32:56.460]  It would be great if we had something like the hackerspace village, you know, online.
[32:56.900 --> 32:59.740]  Well, the MetaLab has hackerspaces.org.
[32:59.880 --> 33:01.080]  It's an incredible resource.
[33:01.380 --> 33:07.260]  The hackerspace mailing list that all the hackerspaces that are here are going to be on is at hackerspaces.org.
[33:07.400 --> 33:10.320]  Let's give a huge round of applause for the MetaLab for getting that going.
[33:10.320 --> 33:11.380]  That's awesome.
[33:17.900 --> 33:18.540]  Okay.
[33:18.700 --> 33:19.040]  Hello.
[33:19.340 --> 33:19.980]  I'm sorry.
[33:20.440 --> 33:21.900]  I'm from the MetaLab.
[33:21.900 --> 33:22.620]  That's true.
[33:22.640 --> 33:25.340]  But I have to correct that last point.
[33:25.640 --> 33:29.260]  Actually, hackerspaces is not driven by one organization.
[33:29.260 --> 33:32.760]  But rather by a collaborative of...
[33:33.880 --> 33:34.620]  Thanks, Johannes.
[33:35.580 --> 33:39.340]  A collaborative of people involved in hackerspaces.
[33:39.540 --> 33:43.920]  There's also your standing behind the hackerspaces movement.
[33:44.920 --> 34:03.360]  And basically, it is a platform for hackerspaces that still exist to come together to share their knowledge, to share their experiences, and to pass that experience on to people that want to build a hackerspace, or that maybe do not yet want to build one,
[34:03.460 --> 34:07.960]  or do not yet know that they want to build one, but at some point have to build one.
[34:08.260 --> 34:37.860]  Because, like, the hackerspaces culture we have now is maybe 1.37% of what could be the whole movement, and what should be the whole movement, because we are generating information and sharing information that leads in some way to freedom of thought, and therefore is a democratic thing we have to pull off.
[34:38.080 --> 34:48.600]  What I will show you now, besides the logo and besides my background, is our homepage, because Wi-Fi just started to work again.
[34:53.190 --> 34:55.210]  Yeah, clap, we have Internet again.
[34:55.850 --> 34:55.910]  Yeah.
[35:03.020 --> 35:07.840]  Okay, so this is the starting page of hackerspaces.org.
[35:09.800 --> 35:17.440]  Actually, by now, pretty much all of you should have a flyer that looks like this, and explains what we do on the backside.
[35:17.440 --> 35:36.880]  We have a claim, yay, which says build, unite, multiply, and which means basically that we build a platform as a wiki page, as a semantic wiki page, actually, so that everyone can contribute to it, can add information to it.
[35:36.880 --> 35:45.940]  And one main part of that is, right here, the list of already existing hackerspaces.
[35:46.320 --> 35:54.240]  Since we did not work very long on the project until now, it is by far not complete.
[35:54.240 --> 35:57.580]  And by far, I mean by far, far, far, far, by far.
[35:59.300 --> 36:11.080]  So, every one of you who has a hackerspace, or who is just on the go of building it, should get to that page and add it to the list.
[36:11.080 --> 36:14.580]  There are some members of the panel already complaining about it.
[36:14.660 --> 36:15.420]  They are not on the list.
[36:16.180 --> 36:17.300]  Yeah, I am really sorry.
[36:19.380 --> 36:26.980]  These are the only USA spaces I have, and I know that this is by far not enough.
[36:27.400 --> 36:29.580]  But you are all here.
[36:29.840 --> 36:31.200]  You have the information.
[36:31.520 --> 36:32.620]  You should add the information.
[36:32.800 --> 36:34.300]  You should contribute to this page.
[36:34.440 --> 36:37.380]  Not only to the list, of course, but also to everything else.
[36:37.380 --> 36:40.600]  So, the second main point is unite.
[36:41.020 --> 36:45.660]  And what this means is you are sharing information.
[36:45.660 --> 36:49.640]  You are sharing your experiences within the hackerspace.
[36:49.960 --> 36:53.900]  And this, of course, is about building hackerspaces.
[36:54.040 --> 37:07.300]  So, you are sharing the information about what all these very clever people already said here, and by far more, because you have the experience, and you can make others not fall into the same traps again.
[37:07.300 --> 37:07.660]  Yeah, maybe.
[37:10.060 --> 37:11.160]  How do you do that?
[37:11.360 --> 37:12.440]  How could you pull that off?
[37:12.660 --> 37:14.400]  We have a mailing list.
[37:17.060 --> 37:18.260]  Mail list?
[37:18.980 --> 37:20.820]  Actually, it's two mailing lists.
[37:21.040 --> 37:24.880]  It's the discussion list and the announce list.
[37:25.280 --> 37:36.920]  While on the announce list, it's a moderated list, the discussion list shows all information that is passed.
[37:36.920 --> 37:39.900]  As well as everything that's on the announce list.
[37:40.040 --> 37:43.860]  So, I would rather recommend to sign for the discussion list.
[37:44.040 --> 37:51.520]  So, you can ask a question if you have one and also read answers or send answers to that list.
[37:51.520 --> 37:59.780]  The other thing is we have a Jabber account, which is jabber.hackerspaces.org.
[38:00.400 --> 38:03.760]  I hope all of you know what Jabber is.
[38:04.160 --> 38:06.060]  It's an instant messenger tool.
[38:06.260 --> 38:08.120]  Yeah, I pretty much think you know what it is.
[38:08.340 --> 38:12.360]  So, you can join this Jabber account.
[38:12.360 --> 38:28.380]  The cool thing about it is that when you join, you automatically have everyone that is already on the hackerspaces.org list listed, who has an account on the list, that automatically the whole list is added to your Jabber account.
[38:28.560 --> 38:35.440]  So, you could pretty much find everyone who is signed to hackerspaces.org.
[38:36.020 --> 38:37.760]  Not pretty much like, actually.
[38:41.490 --> 38:54.690]  And the last point that I want to make, and this goes as an applause for the middle lab again, is that we made the hackerspaces OS an open source project.
[38:54.690 --> 39:08.050]  So, if you are in the go of building a hackerspace and want an OS, want a wiki page, want whatever, there is a Google, um, document that can be downloaded for free.
[39:08.690 --> 39:10.910]  Um, yeah.
[39:13.270 --> 39:17.370]  I, I, I, I tend to think that that was everything I wanted to say.
[39:17.690 --> 39:20.970]  And, um, I'm far over two minutes now, I guess.
[39:21.550 --> 39:22.230]  That's okay.
[39:22.350 --> 39:22.770]  She's cute.
[39:22.910 --> 39:23.690]  She can get away with it.
[39:30.900 --> 39:31.380]  Good.
[39:31.540 --> 39:32.080]  One more point.
[39:32.400 --> 39:34.740]  We're independent and we want you to spread the word.
[39:34.740 --> 39:35.420]  So, yeah.
[39:35.620 --> 39:35.660]  Yeah.
[39:36.100 --> 39:37.340]  Go out with this cool thing.
[39:37.720 --> 39:38.900]  Or send links or whatever.
[39:39.180 --> 39:40.040]  Spam other people.
[39:40.520 --> 39:40.660]  Whatever.
[39:41.400 --> 39:42.120]  Um, thank you.
[39:46.540 --> 39:49.060]  Huge round of applause for hackerspaces.org.
[39:49.460 --> 39:49.980]  All right.
[39:50.140 --> 39:58.900]  Now, and actually let's give a, while we're queuing up for questions, if anybody has any, let's give a huge round of applause to all these panelists for staying under two minutes largely.
[40:01.740 --> 40:10.140]  Um, could we also get anybody in the audience who's a member of a hackerspace or regularly goes to events at a hackerspace to stand up for a second?
[40:10.340 --> 40:13.780]  Because it is a lot more than the people up here that are making this happen.
[40:14.100 --> 40:16.320]  I think it's a round of applause for everybody standing up out there.
[40:16.900 --> 40:17.380]  Yeah.
[40:20.990 --> 40:22.790]  And there is even one in Rhode Island.
[40:22.950 --> 40:24.030]  I always thought Rhode Island...
[40:24.030 --> 40:24.370]  Yeah.
[40:25.430 --> 40:26.010]  There are two in Croatia.
[40:26.010 --> 40:27.730]  I always thought Rhode Island is a myth.
[40:28.030 --> 40:28.650]  Holy crap.
[40:28.810 --> 40:29.950]  There's two in Croatia.
[40:30.610 --> 40:32.110]  But we can also...
[40:33.190 --> 40:36.230]  We can also see there's a lot of room for improvement.
[40:36.670 --> 40:36.890]  Yeah.
[40:37.050 --> 40:37.910]  Mic, mic, mic.
[40:38.450 --> 40:38.810]  Mic, mic.
[40:39.770 --> 40:42.970]  Oh, what Esther said is that there's a lot of room for improvement.
[40:43.130 --> 40:48.490]  Especially if you have hackerspaces, contribute a lot of your shared knowledge to the hackerspaces.org wiki.
[40:48.690 --> 40:54.470]  If you are interested in figuring out how to build a hackerspace, we're going to be dumping all of our knowledge into this wiki.
[40:54.670 --> 40:57.290]  But for now, you can bring up some knowledge.
[40:57.290 --> 40:59.130]  Does anybody have any questions out in the audience?
[41:00.170 --> 41:00.710]  Back there.
[41:03.640 --> 41:05.680]  Can we get a live mic out there?
[41:06.800 --> 41:08.160]  If anything, move up to the front one.
[41:08.260 --> 41:08.760]  Hopefully that'll work.
[41:08.760 --> 41:08.900]  Yeah.
[41:09.020 --> 41:10.020]  There's another one up there.
[41:14.020 --> 41:14.680]  Where is it?
[41:15.560 --> 41:15.920]  Okay.
[41:16.580 --> 41:26.660]  So it's kind of a killjoy question, but I wanted to ask, for all of you who aren't as organized as the one in San Francisco, how do you deal with insurance and liability in case somebody gets hurt building a cannon?
[41:28.460 --> 41:29.020]  I'm sorry.
[41:29.100 --> 41:29.820]  I didn't hear your question.
[41:29.820 --> 41:30.420]  Can you repeat it?
[41:30.620 --> 41:38.000]  It's kind of a killjoy subject, but how do you deal with the issue of insurance and liability in case somebody gets hurt when you're doing slightly riskier things?
[41:38.260 --> 41:40.640]  Yeah, that's actually not been a problem for us.
[41:40.780 --> 41:55.880]  I haven't been the one looking into insurance, but one of the people who's actually involved with Noisebridge has done a lot of research with insurance companies, and all of them have had no problem at all with the word hacker except for one.
[41:56.280 --> 41:57.600]  They said, oh, hackers?
[41:57.800 --> 41:58.160]  No way.
[41:58.980 --> 42:03.240]  But all the others, it's kind of surprising, but they're just hackers.
[42:03.260 --> 42:04.200]  What do you mean by hackers?
[42:04.340 --> 42:05.720]  And we tell them, we're a group of people.
[42:05.720 --> 42:13.240]  We have a whole bunch of projects, and we'll be doing stuff with chemistry and with electronics, and they don't care.
[42:13.380 --> 42:23.660]  We just pay a premium, and it's probably less than $2,000 a year, and we have full liability for the space that we'll rent, plus for liability for personal injury.
[42:24.640 --> 42:33.160]  And it's just a little bit more to protect the people on the board from personal liability in case there's any kind of lawsuit.
[42:33.500 --> 42:35.000]  So it's like $2,000 a year.
[42:35.140 --> 42:36.180]  It's not that big a deal.
[42:37.100 --> 42:39.560]  Call insurance agents who will call you back.
[42:39.880 --> 42:40.520]  Next question.
[42:40.820 --> 42:43.880]  I just wanted to point out that you don't actually have to start off big.
[42:44.080 --> 42:48.340]  I've been running sort of a private hackerspace, if you will, for about 10 years now.
[42:48.680 --> 42:51.460]  It's gone back and forth between my house and my buddy's house.
[42:51.460 --> 42:54.740]  We have a few people over every Wednesday night get together.
[42:55.040 --> 42:58.460]  We've got bandwidth servers working on different projects throughout the course of the year.
[42:58.680 --> 43:04.660]  So even though, you know, I'm hearing these numbers of 100 people, and that would just scare the heck out of me trying to organize something.
[43:04.800 --> 43:08.260]  Or even starting with nine people of, can I really organize nine people?
[43:08.400 --> 43:14.140]  I just encourage people, too, of, hey, maybe you get your first buddy over, and they've got a buddy, and you start off with two or three people.
[43:14.360 --> 43:16.840]  And once you grow out of a house, then you look for the hackerspace.
[43:17.600 --> 43:17.960]  Great.
[43:18.400 --> 43:19.460]  KK, next question.
[43:19.800 --> 43:20.540]  You're a good point.
[43:21.480 --> 43:23.280]  Not a statement, but a follow-up.
[43:23.580 --> 43:32.440]  With the liability for whoever was asking that, I was involved with a build space in Portland, watershedpdx.com, if anyone's interested.
[43:32.760 --> 43:41.020]  But the way they got around that with their insurance is they're actually, through their insurance company, they are listed as a vocational school.
[43:41.020 --> 43:51.420]  So not only does this cover them for liability in the space, but if people are using tools and equipment on projects outside the space, they're still covered under the auspice of that liability insurance.
[43:52.260 --> 44:00.440]  Generally, a commercial general liability insurance policy would cover you using the space's tools if they were explicitly the space's tools.
[44:00.440 --> 44:00.780]  Right.
[44:02.020 --> 44:03.860]  So yeah, if tools are donated into the space.
[44:04.140 --> 44:17.200]  But if they're like, say you have an inventory system for all of your tools, and tools are explicitly owned by the space, or owned by the organization running the space, your commercial general liability or your directors and officers would cover liability for it being used outside the space.
[44:18.160 --> 44:22.060]  But I am not a lawyer, look up the local laws, that's just Ontario.
[44:24.380 --> 44:29.660]  In a whole different country, but generally the same thing, sort of, because Canada is not that different.
[44:30.400 --> 44:31.000]  Next question.
[44:31.840 --> 44:38.980]  Okay, so I guess HOPE kind of just added a bunch of steam to starting a hackerspace in Montreal, Canada.
[44:39.320 --> 44:48.380]  And I'm just wondering, is there anyone else than Hugo Fortier and Geek Montreal that are into starting a hackerspace?
[44:49.840 --> 44:50.020]  Yeah!
[44:52.280 --> 44:57.080]  Throw a page up on the wiki and get in touch with everybody else that wants to.
[44:59.480 --> 45:02.180]  Yeah, I totally missed recon because I had no idea what happened.
[45:02.200 --> 45:04.900]  There's a con in your town and you didn't know about it.
[45:05.100 --> 45:06.520]  What is up with you guys?
[45:07.680 --> 45:09.080]  It happens to the best of us.
[45:09.080 --> 45:14.780]  Okay, but now you guys have no excuses for fail because everybody's going to be organizing on hackerspaces.org, correct?
[45:15.280 --> 45:15.760]  Right?
[45:16.020 --> 45:16.200]  Yes.
[45:16.720 --> 45:17.200]  Awesome.
[45:17.380 --> 45:18.340]  Next question real quick.
[45:19.740 --> 45:22.200]  Yeah, I'm from Vancouver, VanHackspace.
[45:23.580 --> 45:31.380]  We've been roughly just operating off a mailing list for maybe two or three months in sheds doing small hacker stuff.
[45:31.520 --> 45:36.760]  It's probably good to start small, see who the people actually are that do come out.
[45:37.320 --> 45:42.020]  We're going to change our name probably in a month because that's just the name of the mailing list and it kind of sucks.
[45:42.020 --> 45:49.180]  So, yeah, I'm pretty sure I'm the only person from Vancouver that...
[45:49.180 --> 45:49.920]  Oh, sorry.
[45:49.940 --> 45:50.500]  Oh, another Vancouver.
[45:50.500 --> 45:51.360]  All right.
[45:52.280 --> 45:54.160]  Oh, wait, there's two on your left.
[45:54.800 --> 45:55.680]  Hey, all right.
[45:56.020 --> 45:59.440]  This is the story of my life for the past two years.
[46:00.280 --> 46:01.440]  Like, oh, I'm starting...
[46:01.440 --> 46:02.620]  Like, yeah, I just talked to that guy.
[46:02.720 --> 46:03.080]  Go find him.
[46:03.120 --> 46:03.460]  It's an exorbitant growth rate.
[46:03.740 --> 46:04.100]  All right.
[46:04.300 --> 46:04.560]  Oh, yeah.
[46:05.040 --> 46:05.400]  Meeting...
[46:05.400 --> 46:06.740]  Okay, you guys, Vancouver.
[46:07.020 --> 46:08.040]  Meeting next Tuesday.
[46:08.380 --> 46:09.120]  Spartacus Books.
[46:09.960 --> 46:10.660]  7 p.m.
[46:10.720 --> 46:11.120]  Be there.
[46:11.120 --> 46:14.320]  Real quick, was that an exponential or a logarithmic growth rate?
[46:14.500 --> 46:14.700]  Anyone?
[46:15.040 --> 46:15.120]  Anyone?
[46:15.900 --> 46:16.980]  Four out of one members?
[46:17.600 --> 46:17.720]  Okay.
[46:18.760 --> 46:28.800]  Is there a way we could just start a sign up for everybody in the hackerspace village or something just so people that are not in Vancouver but anywhere can just start a sign up of who's in...
[46:28.800 --> 46:29.500]  Put a...
[46:29.500 --> 46:31.280]  To be announced space...
[46:31.280 --> 46:32.280]  Hackerspaces.org.
[46:32.520 --> 46:33.140]  Are we all going to do it all over here?
[46:33.140 --> 46:34.480]  Go to hackerspaces.org.
[46:34.480 --> 46:34.760]  All right.
[46:34.880 --> 46:35.020]  Put a...
[46:35.020 --> 46:35.700]  Put one...
[46:35.700 --> 46:41.720]  Like, put an entry in the table for the city you're in with unnamed, I don't know, Timbuktu hackerspace.
[46:42.360 --> 46:43.640]  Not saying you're from Timbuktu.
[46:43.640 --> 46:44.160]  That would be cool if we have one there.
[46:46.300 --> 46:48.160]  It'd be awesome if there was a hackerspace in Timbuktu.
[46:48.160 --> 46:49.240]  Are there any more questions?
[46:52.340 --> 46:56.460]  I just want to say of hackerspaces, guys, we're at a conference.
[46:56.660 --> 46:58.160]  We have people from all over the world right now.
[46:58.440 --> 46:59.460]  Meet and greet everybody.
[46:59.700 --> 47:00.800]  You want to have a space?
[47:00.960 --> 47:02.600]  It's like, oh my god, I'm from this town.
[47:02.720 --> 47:03.400]  I'm from this country.
[47:03.400 --> 47:06.560]  Come down to the hackerspace or meet anyone you talk to.
[47:06.900 --> 47:07.260]  Just...
[47:07.260 --> 47:08.560]  You want to do something?
[47:08.840 --> 47:09.880]  Start a conversation.
[47:10.040 --> 47:11.900]  Say, oh my god, I'm also from Paris.
[47:11.900 --> 47:12.780]  I'm also from Paris.
[47:12.780 --> 47:14.140]  Or Hokus, where I used to live.
[47:14.520 --> 47:16.140]  But yes, that is a real town.
[47:17.480 --> 47:19.340]  But seriously, come down to the hackerspace.
[47:19.740 --> 47:20.240]  Talk to us.
[47:20.360 --> 47:21.360]  Maybe we know somebody.
[47:21.500 --> 47:26.080]  The thing is, we're here because we want everyone else to get together and grow.
[47:26.400 --> 47:28.700]  So just don't be like, we're here for a talk.
[47:29.340 --> 47:30.920]  Be here because you want to do something.
[47:31.720 --> 47:32.080]  Exactly.
[47:36.740 --> 47:41.140]  I think we heard a lot of excuses that you can potentially have.
[47:41.320 --> 47:47.800]  And you can spend your whole life worrying about problems that you may have before starting a hackerspace.
[47:48.020 --> 47:54.940]  But the truth is, a lot of the problems that you think of beforehand will go away once you start the project.
[47:54.940 --> 48:02.980]  And also, a lot of the problems that you imagine have something to do with the mindset of competition.
[48:03.360 --> 48:15.220]  Once you start the space, you will be in for a whole new feeling that you might not have known before, which is solidarity, and which is really a wonderful feeling to explore.
[48:15.940 --> 48:19.040]  All right, we're out of time, so let's give one back a big round of applause to them.
[48:22.720 --> 48:24.160]  Again, there's going to be...
[48:25.820 --> 48:27.540]  Johannes, you have an event right after this.
[48:27.760 --> 48:32.860]  But right after Johannes' thumb wrestling, in about five minutes, we're all headed out to the Triple H Ranch party.
[48:32.940 --> 48:34.900]  If you don't know about it, come find a card for me.
[48:34.980 --> 48:36.180]  Do you want to talk real quick?
[48:37.100 --> 48:41.160]  If you are into massive multiplayer thumb wrestling...
[48:41.960 --> 48:43.120]  It is absolutely epic.
[48:43.280 --> 48:43.960]  I've seen it in person.
[48:45.020 --> 48:48.620]  I'll meet you in five minutes over near the men's toilet, okay?
[48:49.600 --> 48:50.580]  We'll have a game.
[48:51.160 --> 48:52.660]  And on that note, thank you guys, everybody.
[48:52.780 --> 48:53.360]  Thank you so much.
[49:00.800 --> 49:02.460]  Do you guys have a card right now?
[49:02.540 --> 49:03.240]  Again, I always applaud.
[49:03.720 --> 49:03.860]  We
[49:10.730 --> 49:12.250]  have a...
[49:12.850 --> 49:13.010]  Oh.
[49:19.000 --> 49:19.380]  Oh.