[00:00.000 --> 00:15.620]  I realize that we are treating something, trying to treat something here at HOPE, which is really an important topic for our industry, for those of us that are in the tech industry, a lot of us, for our education, for our business activity, and for our lifelong activity.
[00:15.800 --> 00:19.320]  It's my great pleasure to welcome the panel for Women in Cybersecurity.
[00:28.290 --> 00:30.690]  So, thank you very much.
[00:30.930 --> 00:32.630]  I am Cindy Cullen.
[00:32.930 --> 00:36.690]  I work at HPE as a Cybersecurity Strategist.
[00:36.850 --> 00:44.470]  And I will be acting as the moderator as well as involved in the discussion as well.
[00:44.470 --> 01:08.690]  So, first, just to kick off, you know, I guess the intent of, at least my interest in having this panel, is to really encourage you to encourage women, be they your wives, your mothers, your children, your sisters, brothers, you know, to actually get women more involved in IT,
[01:08.990 --> 01:12.130]  in STEM, and in cyber security.
[01:12.910 --> 01:18.370]  Unfortunately, there's been a decline in the amount of women involved in cyber security.
[01:18.650 --> 01:26.470]  So, it's gone from 11% down to 10% involvement, which, you know, is kind of going the wrong direction.
[01:28.270 --> 01:30.570]  So, it was interesting.
[01:31.350 --> 01:43.510]  My mother always said that she liked to use Fred Astaire as an example of what it's like to be a woman in the world.
[01:43.910 --> 01:49.170]  And Fred Astaire, and I guess I'm showing my age by talking about Fred Astaire.
[01:50.910 --> 01:56.590]  Fred Astaire was a famous dancer, and he danced with Ginger Rogers.
[01:56.910 --> 02:06.610]  He got lots of positive media attention, and she got very little, but yet she did the same dance, and she did it in high heels and backwards.
[02:08.270 --> 02:18.670]  So, in some ways, women have to still deal with, you know, that type of issues.
[02:19.110 --> 02:21.110]  But that's just my perspective.
[02:21.350 --> 02:25.430]  I know that's not a shared thought from everybody on the panel.
[02:25.830 --> 02:34.890]  So, I will first let everyone on the panel provide a little insight into their perspective and introduce themselves.
[02:36.510 --> 02:38.170]  Hi, I'm Debbie Gondek.
[02:38.390 --> 02:41.850]  I've been in the IT industry since about 1999.
[02:41.970 --> 02:48.610]  I've worked for several large financial services organizations in various roles.
[02:49.730 --> 03:01.090]  Starting first in a network engineering lab, where I coordinated the activities in the lab, so it involved a lot of physical racking and stacking of equipment.
[03:02.010 --> 03:07.050]  As well as it evolved into a role where I did testing myself.
[03:08.430 --> 03:19.750]  And I attribute my development there, actually, to the support of a lot of male mentors who helped me learn network engineering at that time.
[03:19.750 --> 03:20.930]  This was 1999.
[03:21.570 --> 03:22.430]  Things were very new.
[03:23.490 --> 03:27.230]  I barely knew what AOL was at the time.
[03:27.470 --> 03:36.310]  And it kind of evolved from there to a point where I could test OSPF and BGP configurations within a couple of years.
[03:37.590 --> 03:41.210]  That led to a role in information security.
[03:41.410 --> 03:47.450]  I found that I really liked trying to break things, you know, in this engineering lab.
[03:48.150 --> 04:03.510]  One goal was to design new technology, not design new technology, but to design how we would use new technology within the company, but also to identify where it might break and mitigate that early.
[04:03.510 --> 04:08.950]  So that kind of led to my future in information security.
[04:09.250 --> 04:13.110]  I moved on to a role in information security proper.
[04:14.050 --> 04:21.010]  Focused on application security at a time where application security wasn't the focus.
[04:21.150 --> 04:22.010]  It was very early.
[04:23.670 --> 04:30.150]  And, you know, really got a kick out of trying to find vulnerabilities.
[04:30.810 --> 04:44.130]  Moved on to a new organization where I helped found an ethical hacking organization within the bank to test applications within the development lifecycle.
[04:44.130 --> 04:55.570]  I did that for several years and participated in several mobile development, security development projects.
[04:55.870 --> 05:08.970]  And then moved on to what's my current role in an operational risk management where, although I'm not directly involved in cyber security, my role is more of a governance role.
[05:08.970 --> 05:24.190]  So, you know, overseeing the information security processes and activities within a different bank from a second line of defense perspective.
[05:26.190 --> 05:30.010]  That's, you know, my career in a nutshell.
[05:30.290 --> 05:35.250]  Didn't really speak to being a woman yet.
[05:36.470 --> 05:38.630]  Should I, should I do that now or would you like to?
[05:39.950 --> 05:40.430]  Yeah, sure.
[05:40.430 --> 05:54.330]  So, you know, I don't, I don't feel as though I've, nothing overt has ever happened to me to either advance or, I guess, stop my career.
[05:54.670 --> 06:05.230]  Although, you know, very early on, I was in, as I mentioned before, in this, in this lab where I, you know, spent a lot of time with a, with a, you know, lifting heavy equipment.
[06:05.230 --> 06:13.830]  And, you know, using a drill to, to screw it in into racks and, you know, receiving shipments and things like that.
[06:14.070 --> 06:18.410]  And, you know, I thought I should wear a skirt at the time, you know, cause that was what, what women did.
[06:18.410 --> 06:24.130]  Um, but I was in this, you know, very, uh, physically hands-on environment.
[06:24.510 --> 06:30.890]  Um, and, you know, you really struggled with what to wear to work.
[06:31.170 --> 06:42.630]  You know, it seems like such a silly thing, but, you know, most women were dressed a certain way, but I was doing this, this activity that was, didn't lend itself to, uh, you know, to wearing a skirt all day.
[06:43.090 --> 06:51.450]  So, you know, that was kind of the, the first, you know, moment that I realized, oh, you know, I'm, I'm a woman here and, and not everybody is.
[06:51.570 --> 06:52.930]  You know, I'm different somehow.
[06:53.890 --> 07:02.970]  Um, and I also realized that I had a slightly different challenge when, you know, as I got better at things.
[07:02.970 --> 07:11.330]  You know, on the one hand, I think the, the men I worked with, uh, probably gave me, so I had a, a, a, a counterpart who was, who was male.
[07:12.830 --> 07:22.910]  And he, um, you know, we, we were, we were pretty good friends also, but at, at times I know he felt that I actually had an advantage being, being a woman.
[07:23.150 --> 07:31.030]  Because we were both there to learn, um, but I, men paid more attention to me trying to, to, to teach me.
[07:31.030 --> 07:35.250]  There, it was this, almost an academic environment where, you know, it was a lab.
[07:35.430 --> 07:38.990]  So you had people who just loved technology and loved sharing their knowledge.
[07:39.330 --> 07:45.350]  But they, they also, I think, preferred sharing their knowledge with the, the girl over the, the, the guy.
[07:46.030 --> 07:51.490]  Um, so it, it actually worked to my advantage at, at that point in time.
[07:51.770 --> 07:53.910]  Um, I, I, I really got a lot of help.
[07:54.290 --> 08:03.510]  Um, but at a certain point, I also felt like, like, my career wasn't going to progress.
[08:03.870 --> 08:07.790]  You know, I, I kind of, was this sort of, um, you know, wasn't she cute?
[08:07.890 --> 08:13.290]  A look at her, um, you know, you know, look at her test the, you know, the switch.
[08:13.470 --> 08:15.250]  Look at her, you know, test the firewall.
[08:15.410 --> 08:15.910]  You know, I, I don't know.
[08:16.050 --> 08:19.370]  It just felt, I, I felt cute.
[08:19.570 --> 08:22.090]  I felt like somebody's daughter, somebody's niece.
[08:22.090 --> 08:33.950]  I, I, I didn't feel like somebody's peer or, um, you know, I, I, I couldn't imagine being perceived as a peer or even a manager of, of the, the, the people I was working around.
[08:34.150 --> 08:38.090]  So it was, it, it had its advantages, but it also had its limitations.
[08:39.410 --> 08:45.550]  And I did recognize that, I, I think, um, through, well, it was painful recognition.
[08:45.790 --> 08:54.370]  But I eventually, and then also followed my heart to a role in information security, um, working for, for a woman at the time.
[08:54.470 --> 08:55.190]  And that was just coincidental.
[08:55.730 --> 09:05.630]  Um, although I, I, I will say that, um, it did, I think she appreciated me in a way that other managers of mine have.
[09:05.630 --> 09:20.390]  And I don't, I, it, it's hard to know what to attribute to being, um, female versus what to attribute to being, you know, a certain age or a certain personality type or a certain race or a certain nationality, or, you know, where you're from.
[09:20.590 --> 09:22.310]  It's really hard to, to, to know.
[09:22.630 --> 09:47.650]  Um, but I, but I do think that, um, you know, this particular manager who I actually work for, for now, um, again, um, You know, I feel like having women role models or mentors or sponsors, or having more women around allow you to increase the odds that you'll be appreciated if you are a woman,
[09:48.330 --> 10:02.690]  just because women do have shared experiences that men don't have, and I'm sure men have shared experiences that women don't have, but I think it increases the chances of being appreciated, and I think we all want to be appreciated for what we do, you know,
[10:02.770 --> 10:08.830]  whether it's financially or in terms of promotions or just in terms of being given challenging assignments.
[10:08.950 --> 10:14.350]  So I've had more success with that, I think, with some of my female managers.
[10:15.230 --> 10:16.830]  I think I'll probably stop for now.
[10:17.030 --> 10:20.030]  I'm sure I'll jump in later, but I'm going to give somebody else a chance.
[10:21.490 --> 10:23.610]  Hi, my name is Renee Pollock.
[10:23.930 --> 10:32.690]  I recently graduated from Pace University with an undergrad degree in IT, and I just started my first full-time job last month.
[10:32.990 --> 10:39.390]  I was an intern for a financial firm for the last two summers, and also consulted for them during the school year.
[10:39.810 --> 10:42.010]  And I also worked in a lab.
[10:42.010 --> 10:46.190]  We did a lot of forensics in terms of mobile malware, reverse engineering.
[10:46.650 --> 10:54.530]  We looked at Tellier networks, and even just like general systems, application security, and tried to break that.
[10:55.350 --> 10:57.690]  I kind of always loved information security.
[10:57.690 --> 10:59.570]  I'm kind of a geek at heart.
[10:59.710 --> 11:00.350]  I love puzzles.
[11:00.390 --> 11:02.330]  I love questions and playing with things.
[11:02.510 --> 11:06.410]  So this field really fed that curiosity in me.
[11:07.370 --> 11:12.790]  But in the lab, I was the only female, and in many of my classes, I was one of the only females.
[11:13.190 --> 11:20.190]  And I never felt any discrimination or any kind of differences.
[11:20.610 --> 11:25.750]  If anything, I felt that people really just cared about your technical skills and your experiences.
[11:26.110 --> 11:33.190]  And if they felt that you had the answer to the homework assignment, or if you could break something or build something, that they would go to you.
[11:33.430 --> 11:40.050]  And so I felt like a lot of my male colleagues and peers would actually come to me and say, Hey, Renee, can you help me out?
[11:40.510 --> 11:45.430]  And it wasn't due to anything else other than just like experience or the way you thought of something.
[11:46.810 --> 11:56.810]  Maybe the only difference is that I think women sometimes think differently or approach a problem slightly differently, which allows us to kind of give a new angle to a dilemma.
[11:56.810 --> 12:14.990]  But I've been very lucky and working both in academia and in financial services and have really fantastic colleagues, bosses, mentors, all who really kind of encouraged my curiosity and really kind of pushed the technical side and didn't really care about anything else.
[12:15.310 --> 12:20.810]  Which I really appreciated and hope I continue to experience that when I move forward.
[12:22.570 --> 12:24.070]  Hi, I'm Morgan Strobel.
[12:24.350 --> 12:27.470]  I work for a large consulting firm here in Manhattan.
[12:27.750 --> 12:31.950]  I am in the technology risk group and I focus on security and privacy.
[12:32.270 --> 12:34.330]  I had a little bit of a different story.
[12:34.530 --> 12:43.330]  I actually went to school for economics and business and my first job out of college wasn't the greatest experience.
[12:43.330 --> 12:55.770]  I was bored with what I was doing and I was at a small boutique consulting firm and along came a gentleman who started contracting to do some of the security work at the firm.
[12:56.430 --> 13:05.750]  And since he was always in the office and he was always playing with cool gadgets and tools and stuff, I kind of asked him to show me some stuff.
[13:06.570 --> 13:14.050]  And he showed me all sorts of hacking tools and all sorts of crazy things and I kind of developed a passion for it.
[13:14.170 --> 13:23.410]  And he started taking me to a bunch of security conferences and really pushed me to learn more, read a lot of books.
[13:23.730 --> 13:32.050]  He met me after work numerous days a week and on weekends just to train me to get me to be able to apply for a job in information security.
[13:32.050 --> 13:34.090]  He happens to be in the room right over there.
[13:42.890 --> 13:46.630]  So I ended up getting to the point where I felt like I could apply for my first job.
[13:46.830 --> 13:57.110]  And obviously the company was like, well, you know, you don't have a job experience, but you seem to have a lot of passion and a lot of drive.
[13:57.190 --> 13:59.130]  So, you know, we'll give you a shot.
[13:59.130 --> 14:07.130]  So I happen to be one of the few women who was in the technology risk security group.
[14:08.110 --> 14:15.870]  However, since I do work for a consulting firm and I travel pretty much every week, we get to work with teams from all the other offices.
[14:16.090 --> 14:19.010]  And there are all there are other women in those groups.
[14:19.010 --> 14:27.770]  So I have had a chance to work with all of them, but I haven't in my company, I actually haven't had any issues with being a woman at all.
[14:27.890 --> 14:29.650]  They've all been very accepting of me.
[14:30.350 --> 14:32.670]  They've all helped me in so many ways.
[14:33.750 --> 14:44.950]  I think the only time there were ever issues was just, I guess, because I didn't come from a security background, they wanted me to prove myself.
[14:44.950 --> 14:50.750]  So I definitely had to work really hard to show them that I do know what I'm talking about and that I am willing to learn.
[14:51.010 --> 14:54.150]  As long as you put in the effort, they're, you know, more than willing to help.
[14:54.950 --> 15:06.230]  As far as discrimination, well, I have had several instances of that because I do travel to many clients.
[15:07.330 --> 15:08.790]  I'll just give you an example.
[15:08.790 --> 15:17.850]  I went to a client one time and it was one of our longtime clients and we were in the room and we were going to do a network security assessment and internal penetration test.
[15:20.250 --> 15:24.890]  And the CISO walked in and said, oh, you brought a female this time.
[15:25.530 --> 15:27.530]  And no one really knew how to react.
[15:27.710 --> 15:36.150]  He walked out of the room right after it happened and we all just looked around and started cracking up because we kind of find it comical that people still say these things these days.
[15:37.710 --> 15:44.070]  But I think you're always going to run into situations and people who are going to say those things.
[15:44.310 --> 15:45.530]  It's not every time.
[15:45.830 --> 15:49.350]  I had another experience where I was going to do a data center tour.
[15:49.510 --> 15:52.270]  I do a lot of third-party vendor security reviews.
[15:53.990 --> 15:59.570]  And I was meeting the facilities team and the data center team down in the lobby.
[15:59.810 --> 16:01.050]  And it was a glass lobby.
[16:01.070 --> 16:07.750]  So I had been called in from the security of the parking lot that I was, you know, entering the building.
[16:08.550 --> 16:15.350]  And I could see all their faces when I was walking down the stairs because they knew the next person who walked in was obviously who they called in to do the data center tour.
[16:16.950 --> 16:21.350]  And they were all facing me and had their jaws dropped to the floor.
[16:21.590 --> 16:24.950]  And they all turned around and looked at each other as if I couldn't see them.
[16:26.870 --> 16:30.970]  And I walked in and I think I don't hide my emotions very well.
[16:31.050 --> 16:33.570]  So the look on my face probably surprised them as well.
[16:33.730 --> 16:37.470]  And they said, oh, sorry, we just thought you were going to be a man.
[16:38.170 --> 16:43.990]  And I was like, I had to bite my tongue a little, but I have to admit, I did say, sorry to disappoint you.
[16:44.470 --> 16:49.470]  And they said, oh, no, we just meant because like Morgan, Morgan is a man's name.
[16:49.930 --> 16:51.890]  And I said, we had a kickoff call.
[16:58.020 --> 17:03.440]  So those are, I mean, honestly, that's my, those are the only two times that I've ever really felt it.
[17:03.460 --> 17:06.640]  I'm sure I've been oblivious to other little things here and there.
[17:06.640 --> 17:10.080]  But those are the two times that really stuck out.
[17:11.480 --> 17:13.340]  Hi, I'm Kathleen Seubert.
[17:13.720 --> 17:16.700]  I'm actually an information security and compliance person.
[17:16.980 --> 17:21.540]  Like Morgan, I actually started out is, I started out actually as an accountant.
[17:22.100 --> 17:23.860]  I got a little bit bored with that.
[17:24.020 --> 17:28.260]  And I actually got hired by a financial services firm as an information security manager.
[17:28.560 --> 17:29.860]  I met three major requirements.
[17:30.140 --> 17:32.900]  I could walk, I could talk, and I was reasonably priced.
[17:35.720 --> 17:42.860]  I moved on, you know, from there to really just do, help firms with their business continuity, disaster recovery.
[17:43.180 --> 17:49.180]  At the financial services firm, believe it or not, I was actually able to bring up their ATM system.
[17:49.180 --> 17:51.660]  We were actually able to process transactions.
[17:51.900 --> 17:53.380]  So that was a big win for us.
[17:53.520 --> 17:54.880]  I was actually very proud of that.
[17:55.980 --> 18:00.020]  I currently, what I do now is mostly compliance work.
[18:00.800 --> 18:07.020]  I write policy and awareness for the users for the firm that I currently work with.
[18:07.740 --> 18:10.160]  We talk a little bit about discrimination.
[18:10.240 --> 18:14.100]  I'm a little bit older than these two here, believe it or not.
[18:15.040 --> 18:23.280]  Early in my career at the financial services firm, I came into work one day and I was introduced to the new CISO.
[18:23.660 --> 18:26.200]  And I was like, ah, I didn't even know we were hiring a CISO.
[18:26.680 --> 18:30.000]  And he happened to be about two years out of college.
[18:30.080 --> 18:33.420]  And at that time, I had two of my four children.
[18:34.080 --> 18:37.620]  And I was like, oh, well, you know, I really would have had to like that job.
[18:37.740 --> 18:39.640]  And two years later, he left.
[18:40.360 --> 18:43.280]  And, well, when he was hired, they said, you know, he's a little young.
[18:44.140 --> 18:45.460]  You know, you have to hold his hand.
[18:45.640 --> 18:46.720]  You have to show him the reins.
[18:46.720 --> 18:48.040]  Because, you know, you know what you're doing.
[18:48.040 --> 18:49.040]  He really doesn't.
[18:49.040 --> 18:50.600]  So, yes.
[18:50.920 --> 18:54.000]  So, he left and they...
[18:54.000 --> 18:56.000]  I was like, oh, I'm going to throw my hat into the ring, right?
[18:56.180 --> 18:56.640]  Two years.
[18:56.940 --> 18:58.000]  I've, you know, helped him.
[18:58.560 --> 19:01.300]  And I walked in and my co-worker had the job.
[19:01.600 --> 19:02.520]  Again, another guy.
[19:03.000 --> 19:05.540]  And they said, you know, he's a little rough around the edges.
[19:05.980 --> 19:06.420]  Understatement.
[19:06.820 --> 19:08.620]  And can you hold his hand?
[19:08.840 --> 19:11.260]  Can you help him along and show him the reins?
[19:11.400 --> 19:13.100]  And I was like, ah, hell no.
[19:13.100 --> 19:15.120]  And I hung out for a while.
[19:15.320 --> 19:16.360]  Got my year-end bonus.
[19:16.780 --> 19:17.840]  Got my stock awards.
[19:18.160 --> 19:19.220]  Exercised my stock options.
[19:19.960 --> 19:21.360]  And I moved on.
[19:21.860 --> 19:23.300]  I mean, the gentleman who got the job.
[19:23.460 --> 19:24.240]  Still a nice guy.
[19:24.500 --> 19:26.420]  Gave me a reference when I was moving on.
[19:26.620 --> 19:28.140]  You know, no qualms about that.
[19:28.260 --> 19:30.640]  But, you know, that really bothered me.
[19:30.700 --> 19:33.360]  And I really didn't think it was fair.
[19:33.760 --> 19:36.800]  Where I am now, I have a team of 16 people.
[19:37.080 --> 19:37.980]  Three of us are women.
[19:39.220 --> 19:40.640]  They are very supportive.
[19:41.120 --> 19:43.860]  I have no problems with them.
[19:44.440 --> 19:47.940]  It's the people outside of the group that I work with.
[19:48.240 --> 19:52.480]  Sometimes I feel like when I'm coming, what's the word you guys use?
[19:52.780 --> 19:53.460]  Sometimes findings?
[19:53.680 --> 19:54.140]  Findings.
[19:54.380 --> 19:56.580]  Or things that they don't want to hear from me.
[19:57.160 --> 19:58.920]  I have to prove myself.
[19:58.920 --> 20:03.180]  I have to prove that I have the knowledge to say what I have to say.
[20:03.180 --> 20:05.140]  Because I'm a woman.
[20:05.180 --> 20:09.040]  And they may not think I know what I'm talking about.
[20:11.460 --> 20:12.780]  I guess that's it.
[20:12.880 --> 20:13.800]  And we can talk a little bit more.
[20:14.040 --> 20:14.560]  You want to go?
[20:14.680 --> 20:14.980]  You go.
[20:15.980 --> 20:20.180]  So actually, I thought Deb brought up actually an excellent point.
[20:20.200 --> 20:24.560]  Which is that there are some times in which it is a big advantage to be a woman.
[20:24.560 --> 20:34.260]  So one of my first roles was actually doing assessments of both physical and IT.
[20:35.000 --> 20:36.600]  And so we would...
[20:36.600 --> 20:39.060]  At that time I worked in the telecom industry.
[20:39.060 --> 20:40.920]  So we would go around to Knox.
[20:41.200 --> 20:46.420]  And especially in the south, these are supposed to be super secure facilities.
[20:46.780 --> 20:48.620]  And I would walk up to the door.
[20:49.240 --> 20:51.020]  Somebody would hold the first door open.
[20:51.200 --> 20:52.160]  It was a man trap.
[20:52.160 --> 20:54.440]  Somebody would open the second door for me.
[20:55.760 --> 20:59.140]  So sometimes there are great advantages.
[20:59.540 --> 21:02.940]  And even Kevin Mitnick understood that.
[21:03.660 --> 21:05.440]  He hired hookers.
[21:05.660 --> 21:10.000]  But they weren't doing what you would think they were doing.
[21:10.200 --> 21:12.080]  They were making telephone calls for him.
[21:12.380 --> 21:14.220]  Because people trusted women.
[21:14.220 --> 21:38.300]  And actually I found that one of the best ways to do social engineering, when I was trying to show organizations that they had weak systems in place, I would call up the admin for senior executives and act like I was going to cry.
[21:38.300 --> 21:41.180]  Because, oh, I was going to lose my job.
[21:41.380 --> 21:43.560]  Because I did something wrong.
[21:44.080 --> 21:47.060]  And, oh, please, please, let me have his password.
[21:47.980 --> 21:49.720]  And they would hand it over.
[21:53.780 --> 22:01.740]  Or another example was, you know, we'd like to put our business cards around in the offices.
[22:01.740 --> 22:13.840]  And so as a woman, it was very easy for me to walk in and around organizations and, you know, walk into the CEO's office, put my business card under his keyboard.
[22:13.980 --> 22:18.900]  A lot of times their computers were not locked.
[22:18.900 --> 22:26.420]  And so there was, you know, so it's not all negative that, you know, women in cybersecurity.
[22:27.100 --> 22:30.880]  So maybe anybody else have some positive experiences?
[22:31.300 --> 22:33.860]  You know, that there was a real advantage to being a woman?
[22:39.240 --> 22:44.000]  I find sometimes some of the guys, well, listen.
[22:44.380 --> 22:52.400]  So, look, I have a CISSP and I don't remember everything from the exam and everything, right?
[22:52.860 --> 22:55.280]  Truly, who remembers everything, right?
[22:55.300 --> 23:00.420]  So I have a degree in finance and I have a master's in MIS and I really don't remember everything.
[23:00.420 --> 23:06.220]  Plus, I'm working on freshman math and that just boggles my mind.
[23:06.520 --> 23:12.640]  But I find that they'll, the guys will help me, like, refresh my memory.
[23:13.220 --> 23:17.560]  And, you know, help just, they'll sit there and I'm like, okay, yeah, fine, all right, fine.
[23:17.680 --> 23:18.200]  I'll get that.
[23:18.280 --> 23:20.940]  And they will take the time, you know, to answer my questions.
[23:20.960 --> 23:23.380]  And it's just, it's just not them.
[23:24.700 --> 23:29.920]  The two other women on my team and they will take the time to answer my questions.
[23:29.920 --> 23:31.340]  And, you know, be patient.
[23:31.500 --> 23:34.920]  Because sometimes I just, like, look at them and I get the deer in the headlights look.
[23:35.300 --> 23:36.860]  And I'm like, yeah, all right.
[23:36.940 --> 23:38.140]  And then I'm like, yes, thank you.
[23:38.280 --> 23:40.700]  I, you know, and I, you know, I appreciate it.
[23:40.740 --> 23:42.480]  And it goes, it goes both ways.
[23:42.920 --> 23:43.720]  And I like that.
[23:43.720 --> 23:44.920]  I like the camaraderie.
[23:45.040 --> 23:46.900]  That just, I think that's really great.
[23:49.060 --> 23:49.500]  Go ahead.
[23:49.740 --> 23:54.900]  So, I have to agree with the social engineering aspect of internal penetration tests.
[23:54.900 --> 24:02.800]  So, when we are, when I'm not staffed on them, but it is in New York, occasionally they will call me and say, So, what are you doing today?
[24:02.900 --> 24:03.960]  Like, what job are you on?
[24:04.100 --> 24:05.320]  Do you want to come help us out?
[24:05.600 --> 24:15.760]  Because women tend to have an advantage of getting in physical social engineering as well as some of our phone ploys as well.
[24:15.760 --> 24:22.100]  But also, I think that internally at my company, I think that there's a lot more competition amongst the boys.
[24:22.440 --> 24:24.620]  So, a lot of times we call it hoarding.
[24:24.880 --> 24:33.460]  So, when they create new tools or, you know, discover something new or a new way in or whatever it may be, they kind of keep it to themselves to use.
[24:34.720 --> 24:37.860]  But they have no problem sharing with me, I've found.
[24:39.760 --> 24:49.440]  So, a lot of times I've kind of aligned myself with people that are willing to help me and willing to share their knowledge with me, rather than the ones who are hoarding their information.
[24:50.900 --> 24:54.060]  Yeah, we have, at our firm, like a women's network.
[24:54.120 --> 25:03.960]  And a lot of the more junior people, like myself, have access to many of the partners and people who we wouldn't have the opportunity to talk to and get advice from.
[25:04.580 --> 25:06.720]  Because there's no men network.
[25:07.760 --> 25:26.380]  So, they have these like functions, you know, fairly frequently and they pretty much say, you know, ask us a question or just go out and do a wine tasting and just kind of enjoy that other advice and recommendations and just experiences from women who otherwise we wouldn't have the opportunity to talk to.
[25:26.460 --> 25:28.080]  So, I found that really, really helpful.
[25:30.180 --> 25:43.500]  Another advantage, I think, having been, you know, the only female in the room so often in my life, even before I was in IT, I studied philosophy and math and it was the same thing.
[25:43.660 --> 25:46.180]  I was always the only woman, it seems.
[25:46.180 --> 25:51.120]  You kind of get used to being the outsider in a sense.
[25:52.180 --> 26:01.740]  And I think the advantage of that position is it lends itself to being, you know, naturally having an independent perspective on things.
[26:01.740 --> 26:11.040]  And there are certain roles in information security or risk in general where being independently minded is an advantage.
[26:11.320 --> 26:24.880]  Because a lot of times you're tasked with looking at something that's, you know, we've been doing this forever, but your job is to find the vulnerability in what's, you know, in an established process.
[26:24.880 --> 26:32.740]  You know, to pick out problems and to, you know, to find the flaws in what, you know, the establishment has been doing.
[26:33.020 --> 26:53.100]  So, I think that, at least for myself and, you know, perhaps a lot of other women or, you know, other people who have kind of been outsiders in their environments may have sort of naturally developed this skill or refined skills around independent thinking.
[26:54.880 --> 26:55.840]  Okay, thanks.
[26:56.540 --> 27:05.260]  So, now we'll move on to the work-life balance and having, you know, how to manage having a family.
[27:05.620 --> 27:12.440]  So, when I had children, I basically put them in daycare from almost day one.
[27:12.600 --> 27:13.940]  Well, actually six weeks.
[27:14.520 --> 27:19.820]  And some people tried to do a guilt trip that, oh, you know, what are you doing?
[27:19.820 --> 27:24.760]  And my attitude was, hey, they're better off in daycare than spending 24 hours a day with me.
[27:25.080 --> 27:27.920]  You know, they'll just get to be too neurotic.
[27:28.620 --> 27:34.060]  So, for me, it was never an issue because I could have cared less what other people were thinking.
[27:34.600 --> 27:41.540]  So, I guess, would you like to address your perception of work-life balance?
[27:43.960 --> 27:45.180]  Anyone can take it?
[27:45.180 --> 27:45.480]  Sure.
[27:46.820 --> 27:50.600]  So, I have a four-year-old and a one-year-old.
[27:50.820 --> 27:58.320]  So, in the last couple of years, I've been, you know, onslaught with work-life balance, new challenges on work-life balance.
[27:59.760 --> 28:05.480]  Yeah, I mean, I guess I've always had, you know, the work-life balance challenge even before kids.
[28:05.780 --> 28:08.440]  Because I always wanted to do something outside of work.
[28:08.760 --> 28:14.920]  But, you know, most recently, it's been, you know, the how to raise kids challenge.
[28:15.300 --> 28:19.860]  And, you know, like Cindy, I had no qualms about sending my kids to daycare.
[28:19.860 --> 28:21.140]  And people do.
[28:22.160 --> 28:24.720]  They're always like, oh, I'm sorry, your kids are in daycare.
[28:24.820 --> 28:26.300]  I'm like, are you kidding?
[28:26.520 --> 28:28.440]  You know, there was no question.
[28:30.840 --> 28:36.400]  But, you know, I did worry, you know, I had kids, you know, later than a lot of people do.
[28:37.700 --> 28:41.360]  In part because of fear of the impact on my career.
[28:43.000 --> 28:46.500]  But it's actually, you know, in many ways turned out to be a positive thing.
[28:46.660 --> 28:56.500]  You know, they reached a point where I felt like, you know, the farther along I got in my career, the more the women, men too, you know, that I interacted with had kids.
[28:56.500 --> 29:01.980]  And so there was this club that I couldn't participate in because I couldn't talk about my kids.
[29:03.200 --> 29:07.860]  You know, it felt like I needed to have kids to kind of, you know, keep up with the Joneses.
[29:07.860 --> 29:10.500]  You know, you know, it wasn't about talking about your car anymore.
[29:10.760 --> 29:12.000]  It was about talking about your kids.
[29:12.760 --> 29:15.340]  That's not why I had kids, but it certainly...
[29:18.540 --> 29:23.560]  You know, it actually, I think, you know, helped my career in that respect.
[29:23.800 --> 29:26.460]  Yeah, it made it easier to relate to a lot of people.
[29:27.520 --> 29:33.120]  The same token, you know, the reality is, yeah, you're much more, you know, for less time.
[29:33.340 --> 29:36.280]  You know, I have to leave the office earlier than I would like sometimes.
[29:36.280 --> 29:44.240]  And, you know, I just have to cut corners in, you know, whether it's not always work that I'm cutting the corner.
[29:44.420 --> 29:47.860]  And it's, you know, shaving off things, you know, in different aspects of life.
[29:48.580 --> 29:53.560]  I happen to have had supportive companies for both of my children.
[29:53.580 --> 30:01.220]  In fact, the job I'm in now, I got a new job that was also a promotion while I was five months pregnant.
[30:01.220 --> 30:02.660]  So it can be done.
[30:02.920 --> 30:03.960]  They took me on.
[30:04.060 --> 30:05.360]  It worked out well.
[30:06.540 --> 30:10.800]  And, you know, on my maternity leave, I joined a moms group.
[30:10.860 --> 30:25.220]  And, you know, one of the common experiences that came up was, surprisingly, having children or going on maternity leave can actually help your career in the sense that people...
[30:26.140 --> 30:36.220]  your absence or the threat of your absence or the threat of your non-return, you know, can lead managers to realize how much they appreciate you.
[30:37.360 --> 30:45.100]  And I met a number of people who, you know, got promoted while they were out on maternity leave or offered better jobs so that they would come back.
[30:45.100 --> 30:46.580]  You know, it can happen.
[30:48.660 --> 30:56.160]  And, you know, it's a challenge, but, you know, it's not all negative, I guess.
[30:57.820 --> 31:03.360]  I kind of feel like I'm still a kid myself, so I'm not really sure if I have kind of the best experience.
[31:03.360 --> 31:09.620]  But my current, like, work-life balance is when I go home from work, I want to do more research.
[31:09.800 --> 31:10.800]  I kind of want to learn more.
[31:10.960 --> 31:16.280]  I go out to the office and I see the potential of this tool and that tool or learning that language.
[31:16.580 --> 31:24.580]  And so I always kind of want to go home and be on the computer even more, but apparently something called a social life that other people enjoy.
[31:24.860 --> 31:41.480]  So I'm trying to, you know, have some more, like, non-computer experiences, meet people who are outside of the field, because not only is it good for my sanity, but it's also good to get into perspective on how people use technology and just to get kind of the non-hacker thoughts,
[31:41.560 --> 31:43.980]  because I feel we look at things in a unique way.
[31:44.300 --> 31:47.560]  And people look at us and say, oh, wait, what about this?
[31:47.600 --> 31:48.260]  What about that?
[31:48.340 --> 31:51.120]  And so that's kind of been my challenge.
[31:52.220 --> 32:00.180]  So I also do not have any children, but I have been fortunate enough to meet someone who works as many hours as I do.
[32:00.180 --> 32:03.420]  So we've really been making it work.
[32:03.700 --> 32:09.860]  And I feel like things will probably change when I do decide to have kids.
[32:10.080 --> 32:13.940]  But luckily, I think that there's a push to keep women in the workforce.
[32:14.060 --> 32:24.020]  So there's a lot of flexible working arrangements that a lot of companies are willing to offer so that we can stay working and still have a family.
[32:24.020 --> 32:28.880]  So I'm looking forward to that so I can continue to work and learn.
[32:29.080 --> 32:31.980]  Because as we all know, security is ever-changing.
[32:32.340 --> 32:38.700]  And so I can't really afford to sit back and keep learning.
[32:40.040 --> 32:41.580]  I actually have four children.
[32:42.000 --> 32:44.140]  I have two in college, two in high school.
[32:44.140 --> 32:48.440]  Like Cindy, mine hit daycare at, well, actually eight weeks.
[32:50.040 --> 32:52.900]  I've worked through... I'm still working.
[32:54.920 --> 32:59.180]  People, like Cindy, they felt sorry for me because I missed a lot of their firsts.
[32:59.540 --> 33:03.740]  My take on it is I try to see what I called their... kind of like their lasts.
[33:04.080 --> 33:10.980]  They graduated from, like, elementary school, fourth grade, middle school at eighth grade, and then obviously high school at 12th.
[33:11.560 --> 33:15.840]  And so I tried to make all the big events at that time.
[33:16.000 --> 33:20.820]  Like fourth grade graduation, eighth grade graduation, and then in, like, I'm choking up.
[33:21.460 --> 33:25.700]  Senior year, like as many of their sporting events that they had.
[33:25.940 --> 33:27.700]  They all play soccer.
[33:28.180 --> 33:30.520]  Their marching band ran track.
[33:30.780 --> 33:32.000]  My son played lacrosse.
[33:32.100 --> 33:36.240]  So I tried to get to all of that.
[33:37.200 --> 33:40.240]  I work for a firm very, very supportive.
[33:40.240 --> 33:41.280]  I have a sick child.
[33:41.280 --> 33:42.080]  I can leave.
[33:42.400 --> 33:44.400]  I'm able to work from home.
[33:45.100 --> 33:47.600]  People on the team have children.
[33:48.040 --> 33:49.400]  They're actually wonderful.
[33:50.180 --> 33:55.960]  And I'd like to say because I'm older, the thought process has come a long way.
[33:55.960 --> 34:01.520]  Early on in my career, when my older two were younger, it was not as user-friendly.
[34:01.820 --> 34:05.400]  I also feel I'm a role model for my children.
[34:05.400 --> 34:09.840]  And my husband and I, it's a give and take.
[34:10.700 --> 34:11.740]  We're partners.
[34:12.120 --> 34:13.020]  Sometimes it works.
[34:13.120 --> 34:14.180]  Sometimes it doesn't.
[34:14.380 --> 34:16.800]  But I feel like it's good for the children.
[34:16.880 --> 34:18.240]  I have three girls and one boy.
[34:18.900 --> 34:21.860]  It's good for them to see how it works together.
[34:22.220 --> 34:23.680]  I was always the bad parent.
[34:23.680 --> 34:24.980]  I dropped off at daycare.
[34:24.980 --> 34:26.000]  He was the good parent.
[34:26.000 --> 34:26.880]  He picked up.
[34:27.780 --> 34:28.300]  Yeah.
[34:28.720 --> 34:30.520]  But it wasn't easy, right?
[34:30.520 --> 34:31.160]  He picked up.
[34:31.260 --> 34:31.960]  He cooked dinner.
[34:32.160 --> 34:32.880]  He did homework.
[34:33.880 --> 34:36.320]  By the time I got home from work, bath was done.
[34:36.680 --> 34:39.000]  And they were on the way to bed.
[34:39.180 --> 34:43.500]  So I quote, unquote, maybe had it easy during the week.
[34:43.580 --> 34:47.300]  But then his thing was he got to play soccer on the weekend.
[34:47.440 --> 34:48.900]  We took turns sleeping late.
[34:49.260 --> 34:51.640]  So it's difficult.
[34:51.840 --> 34:54.340]  And everybody does it differently.
[34:54.340 --> 34:57.780]  You just have to figure out what works for you.
[34:58.020 --> 35:00.060]  There is no right or wrong answer.
[35:00.280 --> 35:01.760]  It's just what works for you.
[35:03.140 --> 35:03.580]  Great.
[35:03.760 --> 35:03.920]  Thanks.
[35:04.320 --> 35:07.920]  So maybe we'll now open it up to questions from the audience.
[35:08.120 --> 35:11.800]  If you have a question, please come up to the mic up here.
[35:15.680 --> 35:16.900]  Actually, I can't see anything.
[35:20.900 --> 35:22.040]  Hey, my name is...
[35:22.040 --> 35:22.680]  Oh, is this on?
[35:22.820 --> 35:23.260]  Can you hear me?
[35:23.420 --> 35:23.620]  Cool.
[35:23.800 --> 35:25.260]  Hey, my name is Matthew Weaver.
[35:25.400 --> 35:25.860]  Thanks so much.
[35:26.040 --> 35:28.060]  It's really cool to see an all-female panel at HOPE.
[35:29.180 --> 35:30.060]  So it's funny.
[35:30.160 --> 35:32.540]  I'm going to say one quick thing about my experience, then I have a question.
[35:33.180 --> 35:36.500]  My experience is that the men's network is literally the whole rest of the world.
[35:36.780 --> 35:38.000]  Like, it's pretty...
[35:38.000 --> 35:38.900]  It's super handy.
[35:39.260 --> 35:40.880]  Like, that thing is way useful.
[35:40.880 --> 35:43.040]  So, like, let's hook it up, right?
[35:43.840 --> 35:45.580]  My question is, I...
[35:45.580 --> 35:53.820]  So one of the superpowers I have, from my experience is probably maybe different than yours, is that I can say anything to anyone.
[35:53.980 --> 36:01.680]  I have been in a lot of rooms with a lot of old white dudes who make bad decisions because there's a homogenous perspective in that room, right?
[36:01.880 --> 36:04.300]  Like, that is what is causing a lot of stuff to not work.
[36:04.500 --> 36:09.200]  What is the most useful thing that I can do with that voice to be helpful to you?
[36:09.200 --> 36:09.920]  Thanks.
[36:10.060 --> 36:11.040]  I'm going to sit back down and get out of the way.
[36:14.740 --> 36:16.580]  I guess just...
[36:16.580 --> 36:20.680]  You have to realize in the room there's different voices, right?
[36:20.860 --> 36:40.500]  So there's what I call legacy people, people that have been there a while, and then there's the younger ones, and people like me who have not been there as long, but I'm more of maybe like a business person, and I will think a little bit differently because I'm half business,
[36:40.660 --> 36:42.940]  half security because I came from a business environment.
[36:44.720 --> 36:48.300]  And like Morgan and Renee said, they have a different take on things.
[36:48.440 --> 36:51.500]  It's just maybe... maybe not listen, what is it?
[36:51.600 --> 36:54.720]  You listen but hear what we have to say.
[36:55.560 --> 37:04.900]  And even if they are... because sometimes I feel like if they're younger, people automatically discount what they have to say, and it's not even just women in general.
[37:05.140 --> 37:06.380]  It's the younger ones.
[37:06.440 --> 37:08.700]  I feel like sometimes discount what they have to say.
[37:08.880 --> 37:16.360]  And they actually are very, very smart, and they bring a different perspective to it, I guess.
[37:16.360 --> 37:17.680]  And they have value.
[37:17.780 --> 37:18.540]  They add value.
[37:19.300 --> 37:41.900]  And I'd say that also, if someone... and this is really true of, I think, across the board, be it men or women, that if somebody is being particularly quiet, to try to work with them, to draw them out, so that they feel more included in the discussion.
[37:43.240 --> 37:51.400]  Or you could also request... you know, sometimes, and I know for me, I need to kind of get comfortable with my surroundings.
[37:51.400 --> 37:58.840]  So I might not say something the first or the second or the third meeting with a group of people, but maybe by the fourth meeting I will.
[37:58.940 --> 38:09.160]  Or maybe if there's a document to review, I'll, you know, respond, you know, written to start, you know, to kind of get a feel for the crowd I'm dealing with.
[38:10.080 --> 38:20.120]  So I'd say just be, you know, give folks a chance, invite them, invite them a second or third time, and invite feedback in different formats.
[38:21.460 --> 38:27.720]  I think also a lot of our, like, communication and a lot of our ideas come from non-meeting settings.
[38:27.720 --> 38:30.140]  So when you go out to... thank you.
[38:30.520 --> 38:30.620]  Wow.
[38:32.300 --> 38:33.100]  So, thanks.
[38:33.720 --> 38:38.280]  So when you guys all go out for drinks, after work, you know, invite everybody.
[38:38.900 --> 38:40.560]  We have similar interests than you.
[38:40.700 --> 38:42.780]  We're not, you know, completely different people.
[38:43.220 --> 38:50.660]  And so we can, like, talk about things in a more casual environment, and sometimes you can kind of have some great ideas in that way, too.
[38:50.660 --> 38:51.340]  Thank you.
[38:53.120 --> 38:53.480]  Hi.
[38:53.640 --> 38:53.880]  Yes?
[38:54.280 --> 38:54.700]  Hey.
[38:54.940 --> 38:55.880]  First of all, thank you.
[38:55.980 --> 38:58.420]  That was really awesome and inspirational, all of you.
[38:59.660 --> 39:13.940]  Do you ever feel like you're tokenized or asked to unfairly represent something on behalf of all women, maybe even at the expense of your own personal experience or just in general, you know, that sort of thing?
[39:15.200 --> 39:15.720]  Yeah.
[39:16.400 --> 39:20.460]  I'm always hesitant to sign up for women in security anything.
[39:21.680 --> 39:27.900]  There was actually an article on Hacker News not that long ago saying, why I will never do a women in security talk.
[39:29.620 --> 39:32.900]  And it was interesting because you never want to be that token person.
[39:32.900 --> 39:41.380]  I always want to be viewed as someone who knows security as a technician, as someone with analysis and things to offer, not as a female.
[39:42.480 --> 39:48.680]  But I also feel that women kind of need to come together and we can kind of be more powerful together.
[39:48.840 --> 39:50.300]  And so there's that kind of lack of voice.
[39:50.520 --> 39:52.180]  And so someone has to do it.
[39:52.800 --> 39:55.620]  And hopefully we won't be tokenized.
[39:55.820 --> 39:57.540]  But there's always that risk.
[39:57.680 --> 39:59.460]  And I think we all try to avoid that as well.
[40:01.360 --> 40:03.020]  I have to agree with Renee.
[40:04.200 --> 40:06.160]  I'm always hesitant as well.
[40:06.160 --> 40:15.160]  However, I guess without us doing things like this, it's not going to attract a lot of women to join us.
[40:15.860 --> 40:22.440]  Because I think that the thought of being in IT or in security never really crossed my mind growing up.
[40:22.900 --> 40:26.640]  I think nowadays it's more so than when I was younger.
[40:26.640 --> 40:29.620]  But I never even thought of that for a second.
[40:29.620 --> 40:39.480]  It wasn't until, you know, Tom stepped into the office that I worked in and kind of brought it up that I was even like, oh wow, like this is so interesting.
[40:40.080 --> 40:47.920]  So I think that without, you know, sharing our experiences, you're not going to get as many women to be involved.
[40:48.060 --> 40:49.900]  So I think that's why I'm here.
[40:51.460 --> 40:52.420]  Next question.
[40:55.580 --> 40:57.620]  I've been to a number of talks like this.
[40:58.220 --> 40:59.920]  And I think this was refreshing.
[41:00.140 --> 41:01.360]  I appreciate your perspective.
[41:02.700 --> 41:04.320]  My formal background is in biology.
[41:04.320 --> 41:06.720]  And I worked in a lab where I was the only male.
[41:07.800 --> 41:13.000]  So I think that it's equally uncomfortable to be on the other side of the equation as well.
[41:13.080 --> 41:16.180]  Anytime you're kind of the minority in a group of any kind, it can be uncomfortable.
[41:16.840 --> 41:26.260]  As a parent of two boys, I see, so I'll take my kids to chess camp and they're mostly boys in the camp.
[41:26.440 --> 41:33.420]  And I'm seeing actually more of a discrimination at, with kids.
[41:34.180 --> 41:38.580]  If they go to gymnastics, for example, they may be one of the few males in the class.
[41:38.820 --> 42:00.240]  And I'm wondering what your thoughts are on whether it's appropriate to be concentrating on women, adult women, or whether we need to be focused more efforts on, when women are kids, on the parents themselves, enforcing the idea that a little girl is just as welcome to be in a chess camp,
[42:00.320 --> 42:02.440]  for example, as boys are.
[42:02.620 --> 42:03.220]  That's everything.
[42:05.480 --> 42:11.560]  I think all children should be encouraged to do everything.
[42:13.600 --> 42:18.740]  It's like, I tell my, I always tell my girls, they're beautiful.
[42:19.120 --> 42:22.320]  They don't need makeup to change the way they look.
[42:22.520 --> 42:25.160]  I've always told my son, he's good looking.
[42:25.700 --> 42:29.480]  And I told them they could live stream, so I'm probably embarrassing them now.
[42:30.760 --> 42:36.820]  I've always told them they could do whatever they want, as long as they set their mind to it.
[42:36.820 --> 42:42.040]  And it didn't have to be anything stereotypical.
[42:42.840 --> 42:48.260]  They should just, you just need to encourage whatever their passion is.
[42:48.500 --> 42:49.680]  You know, just support them.
[42:50.760 --> 42:57.520]  Even if it is something that would be outside of what is, I guess, gender specific.
[42:57.940 --> 43:03.080]  I mean, what we do is, I guess, not considered like a woman thing.
[43:03.080 --> 43:05.400]  And we're very passionate about what we do.
[43:05.580 --> 43:07.180]  We love what we do.
[43:08.020 --> 43:12.440]  I, you know, embarrass my children when I'm checking out at the store.
[43:12.940 --> 43:14.480]  Because I talk about pin pads.
[43:15.160 --> 43:17.380]  You know, it's just, we love what we do.
[43:17.500 --> 43:18.240]  Just encourage them.
[43:18.340 --> 43:19.580]  Just want them to be happy.
[43:20.140 --> 43:24.220]  And I would say that we really need to do the whole gamut.
[43:24.220 --> 43:30.220]  Because you're right, it's very important to begin addressing it at the younger ages.
[43:30.440 --> 43:38.420]  You know, so that girls have, and actually all children, especially in the U.S., their math tends to be very weak.
[43:38.640 --> 43:42.600]  But to actually encourage everybody to become very good at math.
[43:42.760 --> 43:48.080]  Because it's a basic building block of the whole technology space.
[43:50.240 --> 43:59.680]  But there's a lot of adult people who also, I think, really need to be encouraged to realize that this is something that they can do.
[43:59.960 --> 44:03.700]  That it's not, you know, totally beyond reach.
[44:04.000 --> 44:09.040]  For example, I have an undergraduate in liberal arts.
[44:09.180 --> 44:11.300]  My husband always tells me, don't tell anybody that.
[44:12.400 --> 44:15.140]  And a master's in computer science.
[44:16.060 --> 44:22.580]  And so it's possible to, even if you have undergraduates that's not...
[44:22.580 --> 44:26.860]  And we have examples here of people that didn't even go get the master's.
[44:26.960 --> 44:29.520]  That they basically did a career transition.
[44:29.940 --> 44:36.320]  And so we need to encourage people to come into the cybersecurity space.
[44:38.460 --> 44:42.540]  Okay, I want to address what Renee said about being the token female.
[44:43.480 --> 44:46.260]  I find myself at times in that position as well.
[44:46.780 --> 44:51.680]  But I also utilize social engineering because it works really well.
[44:52.380 --> 44:58.900]  But what I was curious about is what do you find has been your experience in the workforce as far as other women?
[44:58.900 --> 45:01.200]  Because this industry can be very competitive.
[45:01.780 --> 45:06.040]  Some fields women can have their issues with other women.
[45:06.260 --> 45:09.040]  And I was wondering how, what your experiences have been with that.
[45:09.620 --> 45:12.380]  Guys aside, sometimes it's worse.
[45:13.220 --> 45:14.840]  I mean, I've been really lucky.
[45:15.220 --> 45:18.520]  We have some females on my security team.
[45:18.760 --> 45:22.540]  And they've all been, they're more senior than I am, which doesn't say much.
[45:22.700 --> 45:27.420]  But they have great experiences in a wide variety of former careers.
[45:27.420 --> 45:35.400]  And everyone's been really supportive and very much, like, if I have a question, they will happily answer it.
[45:36.220 --> 45:45.340]  And I feel that in general, even for no matter what, like what firm you're at, finding another female who's in the space just to kind of talk to.
[45:45.580 --> 45:49.300]  And you kind of feel that you're not the only woman in the world who, like, security is helpful.
[45:49.300 --> 45:53.060]  But, yeah, I've been extremely lucky to have a really fantastic team.
[45:53.340 --> 45:55.720]  And there's been no competitiveness.
[45:55.920 --> 45:57.120]  It's really, really great.
[45:58.500 --> 46:04.320]  I find I have run into some women who are not particularly supportive.
[46:05.400 --> 46:07.720]  They're not the majority of people.
[46:07.900 --> 46:11.560]  But, you know, on a rare occasion, I have run into that.
[46:13.120 --> 46:14.140]  Next question.
[46:14.500 --> 46:14.980]  Hi.
[46:15.200 --> 46:19.260]  I'm an independent architect consultant.
[46:19.540 --> 46:24.160]  And usually when I work for, like, Fortune 100, we have tier one vendors.
[46:25.000 --> 46:28.880]  And so it's sort of a bit of a preamble to my question.
[46:28.880 --> 46:50.040]  I run into interesting challenges when, across my career, like 25 years, of ways that I might be shut down when you want to point out a flaw in a proposed architecture design, including one of the largest financial services company.
[46:50.240 --> 46:55.640]  We're one of the tier one vendors who owns all of the IT in financial services.
[46:57.580 --> 47:06.160]  Actually, because I'd been brought in as a SME, but when I pointed out something, it came down from the top.
[47:06.380 --> 47:13.920]  Because I worked for business, I was a business person and therefore was no longer allowed to use technical terms in meetings.
[47:14.060 --> 47:18.440]  They couldn't keep me from the meetings, but I wasn't allowed to use technical terms.
[47:19.660 --> 47:28.500]  I was just wondering what I had to do was find, I think, very... pull on the feminine side as to how to do my job.
[47:29.060 --> 47:30.700]  And have you found that yourself?
[47:31.000 --> 47:44.520]  That sometimes just being a female, that there are ways that you address challenges, especially ones that, you know, otherwise might be, like, head to head.
[47:45.260 --> 47:47.540]  And how has being a female benefited you?
[47:51.390 --> 48:09.950]  I was in a meeting once, and the person that was supposed to make a decision on an architecture decision on something someone was proposing, I knew he was listening with half an ear, and he actually said yes to it, and I knew it wasn't the right decision.
[48:11.170 --> 48:13.710]  And I am allowed to use technical terms.
[48:13.950 --> 48:21.410]  And I said to him, and I addressed him by his name, and I said, you know, sometimes I don't know really what I'm talking about.
[48:21.530 --> 48:24.270]  And actually he laughed, and now I had his attention.
[48:24.510 --> 48:28.330]  I said, can I just repeat what I think he said, you know, the gentleman said?
[48:28.410 --> 48:28.970]  And he said, yeah.
[48:29.230 --> 48:34.770]  And I said it in non-technical terms, and his response was, oh yeah, hell no.
[48:37.740 --> 48:45.140]  You know, it's just, you just, I don't know, you just kind of, sometimes I just play, I guess, dumb.
[48:45.700 --> 48:46.580]  I guess.
[48:46.760 --> 48:47.960]  I took the blonde approach.
[48:48.280 --> 48:49.160]  Yeah, dumb.
[48:49.160 --> 48:54.400]  And ask the very naive questions that then highlight the design flaws, right?
[48:54.920 --> 48:58.660]  And then it's like, Jim, Jim, come over here, I just discovered this big problem.
[48:58.760 --> 48:59.040]  Yes.
[48:59.200 --> 49:05.540]  And you just kind of like play dumb, and you ask the questions, and it just comes, it just obviously then the flaw will come to light.
[49:05.540 --> 49:05.900]  Yes.
[49:06.580 --> 49:08.500]  It's also known as a Socratic method.
[49:11.040 --> 49:13.440]  And that's also how I refer to it.
[49:14.800 --> 49:16.060]  So you've used that too.
[49:16.980 --> 49:17.800]  Well, thank you.
[49:17.960 --> 49:18.300]  Thank you.
[49:18.460 --> 49:18.860]  Thank you.
[49:19.380 --> 49:24.340]  Actually, I think we have only two minutes, so one last question.
[49:24.440 --> 49:25.360]  All right, I'll try to make it quick then.
[49:25.820 --> 49:34.700]  All right, so studies have shown that kids by the age of five or six have already kind of established what are, you know, girl subjects versus boy subjects.
[49:35.440 --> 49:40.720]  And I'm involved locally in encouraging girls to get involved in STEM careers.
[49:40.900 --> 49:46.500]  And actually, as a 31-year-old, I'm starting to get into the tech field myself.
[49:46.500 --> 49:50.500]  So I guess my question is kind of two-fold.
[49:50.740 --> 50:05.940]  It sounds like all of you have had the benefit of having mentors who have helped you get where you are, whether it's, you know, working with a sixth grader or whether it's someone like myself as an adult getting into the field.
[50:05.940 --> 50:13.680]  How would, what would you say is the best way to get more women in tech, whether it's cybersecurity or a related field?
[50:14.460 --> 50:19.060]  I guess I would not say that I've had the luxury of any mentors.
[50:19.780 --> 50:19.980]  What?
[50:20.840 --> 50:26.280]  And I got into it as an adult.
[50:26.820 --> 50:33.840]  And so it was a huge, for me it was a huge challenge, especially having a liberal arts background too.
[50:34.420 --> 50:39.740]  But today I think it would be much easier because there is so much information online.
[50:39.740 --> 50:49.140]  You know, you can easily go to the MOOCs, the Courseras, and take very technical courses.
[50:49.800 --> 50:55.000]  A lot of technology companies have free versions of their products you can download.
[50:56.020 --> 51:07.760]  There's a whole bunch of associations that people can get involved in, so that there's a lot of information out there to really, to get involved in.
[51:07.760 --> 51:11.340]  And Tom over there, he loves mentoring people.
[51:12.260 --> 51:24.740]  Well, I guess the question is more, I mean, there are definitely the resources out there, but how do you get women, or girls even, to be open to that path?
[51:25.080 --> 51:28.120]  I mean, do you, what are your thoughts on that?
[51:28.320 --> 51:33.060]  I think that we have to go out and say, like, we are willing to be your mentor.
[51:33.160 --> 51:36.600]  I think it's somewhat awkward to go to someone and say, will you be my mentor?
[51:37.840 --> 51:43.640]  I've had mentors, like unofficial ones, but they've mostly been friends, and I don't think I'd ever say, hey, will you be my mentor?
[51:43.960 --> 51:51.960]  I think it's great to have either a formal or informal process where you're like, here's my life, here's my advice, here's some fun things to do.
[51:52.160 --> 51:54.200]  And if you have any questions, I'm always there.
[51:55.000 --> 51:59.260]  I think you have to just go and say, I'm always here, and have that door open.
[52:01.400 --> 52:08.000]  Okay, so we're given the time signal, so any last words from everybody?
[52:08.520 --> 52:09.820]  30 seconds or less?
[52:10.360 --> 52:11.120]  I'll say thank you.
[52:11.660 --> 52:18.360]  I actually just want to quote my father, which says, just to please treat others as you would like to be treated.
[52:21.320 --> 52:21.740]  That's it.
[52:21.820 --> 52:22.220]  And thank you.
[52:22.220 --> 52:23.400]  Thank you very much.
[52:23.560 --> 52:23.940]  Thank you.
[52:39.730 --> 52:41.430]  I don't want to kick you out of your knees.
[52:41.670 --> 52:41.770]  Thank you.