[00:00.000 --> 00:01.640]  I work at the Free Software Foundation.
[00:01.940 --> 00:03.480]  Uh-oh, is it going to do that?
[00:03.860 --> 00:04.260]  Wait.
[00:08.780 --> 00:09.640]  Oh, we're good.
[00:09.800 --> 00:09.900]  Okay.
[00:10.500 --> 00:14.260]  And I'm going to talk about why we need a big tent in the free software movement.
[00:16.100 --> 00:23.000]  More specifically, I'm going to talk a little bit about free software is and why that's important and why there's a free software movement.
[00:23.340 --> 00:27.980]  And then a little bit about why diversity and growth are critical for the free software movement.
[00:27.980 --> 00:31.980]  And then I'm going to share some political organizing techniques.
[00:32.380 --> 00:36.620]  My background before coming to the Free Software Foundation is all in political organizing.
[00:36.620 --> 00:41.760]  So I worked a lot on free speech issues, civil liberties, access to the political process.
[00:42.740 --> 00:45.360]  That community is not super techy.
[00:45.480 --> 00:48.020]  So I had a feeling that we're probably missing out on some stuff.
[00:48.200 --> 00:51.060]  And the free software is exactly what we're missing.
[00:52.220 --> 00:53.860]  So a little bit about software in general.
[00:54.060 --> 00:55.000]  I'm sure everyone here knows.
[00:55.160 --> 01:00.140]  You can use it for all kinds of personal stuff and organize all kinds of things, make things easier.
[01:00.860 --> 01:07.080]  You can have less paper in your physical mailbox and instead have lots of spam in your virtual mailbox.
[01:08.100 --> 01:13.340]  And of course, you know, all the other junk that we love, pictures of cats, Short Circuit 2, etc.
[01:15.200 --> 01:23.620]  In the 60s, people thought that the computer's primary function in our society was going to be to enhance the power of the human mind, man.
[01:24.920 --> 01:27.100]  They just thought, like, it was going to be great.
[01:27.260 --> 01:29.960]  Like, we were never going to have to, like, physically shop again.
[01:31.920 --> 01:33.160]  All kinds of great stuff.
[01:34.120 --> 01:35.640]  And to some degree that happened.
[01:35.820 --> 01:44.120]  It was like, you know, we have, like, virtual research assistants and we're able to track all kinds of data that we wouldn't be able to just hold in our heads.
[01:45.140 --> 01:47.720]  But of course, it also turned out to be really useful for groups.
[01:48.540 --> 02:01.020]  So running a really large business or running a government or correlating lots of information and producing news, which has a lot to do with the way that we run our society in a political fashion.
[02:02.040 --> 02:04.260]  You can use software to track legislation.
[02:04.520 --> 02:05.660]  There's a Congress watch.
[02:06.040 --> 02:08.480]  You can use it to share your opinion with your community.
[02:08.840 --> 02:11.260]  And you can use it to organize people politically.
[02:11.500 --> 02:13.880]  Like to tell them, you know, hey, this bill is coming up.
[02:14.060 --> 02:16.720]  Or we're going to all go down to the State House on Friday.
[02:18.500 --> 02:24.040]  So we use software to interact in ways that we used to use to interact offline.
[02:24.040 --> 02:38.220]  So speaking freely and assembling freely, which are in the Bill of Rights, those are two things that we use to exercise, freedoms that we use to exercise offline.
[02:38.220 --> 02:42.660]  And now many of the mechanisms that we use to exercise those freedoms are online.
[02:43.000 --> 02:48.100]  So the online thing is controlled by whoever controls the technology.
[02:48.100 --> 02:53.720]  So that means that those freedoms become meaningless if the methods aren't controlled by our government or our people.
[02:54.160 --> 02:58.320]  Or, you know, there's a whole other thing about government corruption.
[02:58.320 --> 02:59.160]  So whatever.
[02:59.400 --> 03:03.340]  But let's assume that the democracy actually has the potential to work.
[03:04.780 --> 03:15.640]  So before computers, you would have known if someone was tampering with your mailbox or tracking your movements, you would have been like, who is that guy, like, sitting down at the end of my driveway every day?
[03:15.820 --> 03:16.660]  He's creepy.
[03:16.840 --> 03:18.860]  I'm going to call the police and get him to go away.
[03:20.480 --> 03:24.000]  So technology makes the invisible surveillance possible.
[03:24.360 --> 03:32.580]  I'm not actually trying to scare you guys by saying that someone is reading your email right now, but the technology does exist to do it without your knowledge.
[03:33.160 --> 03:35.040]  I'm sure everyone here is aware of that.
[03:35.380 --> 03:37.040]  In fact, there might have been a talk on it earlier.
[03:38.600 --> 03:44.440]  So some of the other things, like software could, in addition to democracy, it could be important for some really...
[03:44.440 --> 03:46.860]  It could be important for some really big things.
[03:47.540 --> 03:51.580]  So, you know, these are some of the things that folks use software for.
[03:51.760 --> 03:58.820]  And I like to think maybe, you know, we're looking at building software for time travel, solving world hunger, and peace on earth.
[04:00.060 --> 04:04.260]  Again, very important to have everybody's participation and involvement.
[04:04.640 --> 04:07.180]  So what I'm saying is that software is power.
[04:07.340 --> 04:11.420]  So it matters a lot who controls your machine and the software you're running on it.
[04:12.460 --> 04:17.600]  And just a little bit, a word about the word power.
[04:18.780 --> 04:27.480]  The way that that word is deified, or not deified, demonized, I guess, in our society is really dangerous because...
[04:28.840 --> 04:30.160]  Well, we can go to this one.
[04:31.160 --> 04:34.100]  Power just means getting things done.
[04:35.000 --> 04:37.220]  It doesn't have to, like, turn you evil.
[04:37.540 --> 04:42.200]  You don't... It's not like Hitler and Gargamel.
[04:42.840 --> 04:44.780]  It means getting shit done.
[04:45.500 --> 04:48.980]  So, Frederick Douglass was an abolitionist.
[04:49.180 --> 04:57.640]  And, you know, people asked him, even in his work, like, hey, that's going to bum people out and be inconvenient and whatever, whatever.
[04:57.840 --> 05:00.680]  And he's like, yeah, that is what's going to happen.
[05:01.500 --> 05:06.280]  Power is going to upset the... Like, retaking power is going to upset the apple cart a little bit.
[05:07.000 --> 05:07.400]  So...
[05:07.400 --> 05:09.320]  Oh, that was an unintentional pun with the apple.
[05:09.480 --> 05:09.600]  Sorry.
[05:11.200 --> 05:14.120]  So, as activists, we can't flinch from the use of power.
[05:14.300 --> 05:16.200]  And we can't flinch from calling out power.
[05:16.200 --> 05:25.940]  This is... We sent a big postcard to Steve Jobs saying, hey, the iPad, that looks like you're not giving any control to the user at all.
[05:26.700 --> 05:28.460]  That's a... It's a walled garden.
[05:28.460 --> 05:30.340]  And that's bad for freedom.
[05:30.540 --> 05:32.140]  And we want to let you know.
[05:32.420 --> 05:35.460]  Like, there are people that like their devices and they're definitely pretty.
[05:36.480 --> 05:40.340]  But that's what I mean when I say we can't flinch from calling out power.
[05:41.720 --> 05:45.080]  So, in case anyone here doesn't know, I see a couple of free software shirts.
[05:45.400 --> 05:48.940]  And free software is the freedom to run the program for any purpose.
[05:49.220 --> 05:49.880]  You can study it.
[05:49.960 --> 05:50.600]  You can change it.
[05:52.080 --> 05:54.880]  You can share out copies and help your neighbor.
[05:55.080 --> 05:58.920]  And you can also redistribute copies of your modified versions to others.
[05:59.140 --> 06:01.460]  So that's, you know, the GPL in a nutshell.
[06:02.780 --> 06:06.680]  In order to do that, you need access to the source code, copy left license.
[06:06.680 --> 06:11.160]  And that's, free software is controlled by a worldwide community of users and developers.
[06:12.760 --> 06:16.380]  And this is a little bit why, you know, we kind of talked about democracy a little bit.
[06:19.200 --> 06:22.020]  But it also turns out to be, like, kind of handy.
[06:22.220 --> 06:23.480]  Like, human knowledge is pooled.
[06:23.500 --> 06:25.500]  We have to write more calendar functions.
[06:26.820 --> 06:29.880]  Although people, I think, still enjoy writing, like, Varlog stuff.
[06:29.880 --> 06:30.980]  They don't have to.
[06:32.780 --> 06:36.620]  And we, as individuals, are valued over monopoly.
[06:36.920 --> 06:46.920]  So, in a business model with proprietary software, it's all about, like, the bean counting and keeping track of the code and where it's going and all of this.
[06:47.440 --> 06:51.580]  In a free software model, it's more about, like, what you know and what you're able to do.
[06:51.580 --> 07:01.900]  So, especially in, like, a customization or support model, it's definitely about the individual and the relationship between that individual and the person that they're helping out with the software.
[07:03.180 --> 07:09.080]  And we don't have to waste a lot of time policing intellectual property, which is kind of like trying to put toothpaste back into the tube.
[07:14.180 --> 07:17.520]  So, free software, in a nutshell, is distributed power.
[07:17.800 --> 07:21.400]  And I think that that's a kind of power that I could get behind.
[07:21.580 --> 07:22.580]  So, that's what I'd like to see.
[07:22.900 --> 07:27.720]  So, that means everyone's participation is needed.
[07:28.000 --> 07:32.540]  You can't have distributed power if there's only one person willing to be empowered.
[07:33.240 --> 07:37.580]  So, this is another quote from Saul Alinsky.
[07:37.580 --> 07:41.440]  Saul Alinsky was kind of considered the father of community organizing.
[07:42.840 --> 07:45.820]  He did a lot of organizing of low-income people.
[07:46.020 --> 07:47.800]  And he wrote a lot about his techniques.
[07:47.880 --> 07:48.960]  And he was very successful.
[07:50.540 --> 07:55.040]  So, this is a little bit about starting from where we actually are.
[07:55.620 --> 07:59.060]  So, currently, we think that...
[07:59.060 --> 08:06.060]  Or some studies or some polls show that free software is maybe, like, two or three percent of the desktop market.
[08:06.060 --> 08:12.600]  Of course, that's probably a little low because most of us didn't actually pay for a GNU Linux operating system.
[08:12.740 --> 08:17.160]  But there's no escaping that free software is definitely in the minority.
[08:17.440 --> 08:31.000]  And so, pretending that, oh, if only people knew they would be over here using the free software software because that's what they should be doing is not going to happen.
[08:31.160 --> 08:33.980]  They're still going to be forced to use Windows at work for a long time.
[08:34.260 --> 08:37.940]  And we need to accept that and start from that place.
[08:40.560 --> 08:42.840]  So, we need to grow the free software movement.
[08:43.100 --> 08:47.680]  And in order to do that, I think we need to reach beyond the folks who are already here.
[08:48.780 --> 08:57.940]  We probably have, like, I'd say the FSF membership is probably, like, 95% sysadmins and coders.
[08:58.180 --> 09:03.080]  So, we've done a good job of kind of trading that group of folks.
[09:05.100 --> 09:08.320]  So, just to talk about, like, who is the free software movement now?
[09:09.440 --> 09:11.460]  Flosspils did a study a couple years ago.
[09:11.800 --> 09:13.200]  Hopefully, it's getting a little better.
[09:13.380 --> 09:16.920]  But still, even three times this number would be pretty low.
[09:17.120 --> 09:20.200]  And it's lower than the number is for proprietary software.
[09:20.520 --> 09:24.680]  So, like, 20 to 25% women in the proprietary software world.
[09:25.160 --> 09:29.320]  Writing code and involved with the user interface and everything.
[09:29.900 --> 09:33.820]  So, we have a lot of space to go.
[09:35.400 --> 09:37.120]  So, how did that happen?
[09:37.120 --> 09:38.220]  People ask me that.
[09:38.420 --> 09:39.480]  And I'm not sure.
[09:39.640 --> 09:40.620]  I have a couple ideas.
[09:41.940 --> 09:45.480]  Girls don't get their first computer, on average, until they go to college.
[09:45.900 --> 09:50.600]  So, even, like, families, if they have a computer, like, they keep it in, like, a family room.
[09:50.600 --> 09:54.460]  Or if they have a boy and a girl often, they'll keep it in the boy's room.
[09:56.560 --> 10:08.640]  So, that's kind of weird, because that's a lot of years of, like, someone else paying your rent that you could spend many, many, many afternoons, like, hanging out, hacking, tinkering, you know, whatever.
[10:10.500 --> 10:18.100]  Some other stuff, I think, sort of culturally, plays a lot of value on the late-night rock star coder.
[10:18.260 --> 10:21.440]  And that's usually got a pretty macho tinge to it.
[10:22.040 --> 10:29.400]  It doesn't work out super well with homemaking and childcare duties, which women disproportionately shoulder.
[10:31.780 --> 10:36.180]  Also, often unintentionally, people tend to recruit people that look like themselves.
[10:36.200 --> 10:42.580]  Like, you show up somewhere, like, you're wearing a Star Trek t-shirt, there's one other person in this room with a Star Trek t-shirt.
[10:42.580 --> 10:49.420]  Like, you can strike up a conversation really easily with that person, because you know, like, hey, we already have something in common.
[10:49.720 --> 11:05.780]  Now, a lot of the signifiers are a little less obvious, but, you know, when you talk about, like, age and gender and class background and things, people tend to be more comfortable with folks that are coming from a similar place.
[11:05.920 --> 11:07.440]  And that's not to call people out.
[11:07.440 --> 11:09.100]  It's just, like, how people are.
[11:10.300 --> 11:15.080]  And once you're... the good news is that once you're aware of it, you can start to bust that down.
[11:15.820 --> 11:23.280]  And also, lastly, and I'm sure you guys have all heard of IRC and seen flame wars on mailing lists.
[11:24.900 --> 11:44.120]  Internet anonymity, that word, you know what I mean, tends to make it really easy for people to engage in rude and often sexist behavior, because there's... it doesn't feel as accountable, because you're, you know, like, ping pong 305, as opposed to, like,
[11:44.660 --> 11:50.800]  George, whatever, who has a sister and a mother that he shouldn't kiss with that mouth, or whatever.
[11:51.100 --> 11:58.260]  So... anyway, so we have a huge movement we want to grow, and a huge population we haven't reached.
[11:58.260 --> 12:00.760]  Or, well, we don't have a huge... we need a huge movement.
[12:01.460 --> 12:06.820]  And then there's this whole, like, opportunity for folks we haven't yet reached.
[12:09.120 --> 12:11.480]  So, more women and more people in general.
[12:11.700 --> 12:15.260]  I'm, you know, I'm a woman, so I have a little bit on that one, but...
[12:16.000 --> 12:20.520]  I mean, more users, more designers, more developers, more people spreading the word about free software.
[12:21.460 --> 12:26.000]  How many of you guys actually, in the room right now, contribute to a free software project?
[12:27.520 --> 12:39.120]  Okay, so, of everyone who has their hand up, how many of you are contributing to a free software project that is overflowing with volunteers and people writing code and doing bugs and all that kind of stuff?
[12:39.520 --> 12:40.480]  You're overflowing?
[12:42.260 --> 12:45.900]  Okay, so one out of 40 or something?
[12:45.900 --> 12:50.120]  So, most of us could use a lot more folks involved in our projects.
[12:53.680 --> 12:57.120]  So, if we want change, we need power.
[12:57.480 --> 12:59.600]  For power, we need more people.
[12:59.960 --> 13:02.460]  And we need a more diverse group than we have now.
[13:02.580 --> 13:04.360]  And I think, in particular, more women.
[13:04.500 --> 13:05.780]  That's, like, a specific point.
[13:07.420 --> 13:10.660]  The diverse group thing means if people...
[13:10.660 --> 13:16.640]  In that they also sort of recruit people like themselves, they tend to write things for folks like themselves.
[13:17.300 --> 13:20.640]  So, you know, things that just wouldn't occur to you.
[13:21.440 --> 13:23.920]  There was, like, a thing about...
[13:23.920 --> 13:27.560]  It's a woman who was working with a cell phone vendor.
[13:28.620 --> 13:30.120]  Like, she was doing some marketing for them.
[13:30.240 --> 13:34.660]  And they're like, oh, yeah, we've got this, like, great new thing.
[13:35.160 --> 13:40.400]  And it does this thing, like, for you while you have your phone in your pocket and all this sort of stuff.
[13:40.500 --> 13:41.900]  And she's like, oh, really?
[13:42.060 --> 13:44.860]  And they were talking to her, like, yeah, don't you think women would love that?
[13:44.920 --> 13:46.780]  And she's like, oh, where do you think my phone is right now?
[13:47.440 --> 13:48.320]  And I was like, call it.
[13:48.480 --> 13:50.780]  It's in my purse.
[13:50.960 --> 13:51.900]  So, it's like...
[13:51.900 --> 13:55.640]  So, just, like, even really simple stuff, like, as far as the way about use.
[13:56.540 --> 13:58.380]  But not to just harp on women.
[13:59.820 --> 14:03.680]  We could use a lot of other sorts of diversity within the free software movement.
[14:05.300 --> 14:06.820]  There's no reason why not.
[14:07.080 --> 14:08.880]  Like, there's free software.
[14:09.000 --> 14:12.620]  And it's available for anyone to use and download.
[14:13.680 --> 14:16.700]  And we have all these projects that could use more people.
[14:17.600 --> 14:18.620]  Some of the...
[14:18.620 --> 14:24.260]  When you look at this list, you can see, like, specifically why, you know, like, persons with...
[14:24.260 --> 14:31.720]  People with disabilities would be particularly interested in, you know, and useful in the free software coding process.
[14:31.720 --> 14:34.580]  Because they have really specific needs for software.
[14:35.200 --> 14:35.720]  So...
[14:35.720 --> 14:41.860]  And I'd especially like to see more people that don't identify as computer people in the free software movement.
[14:42.680 --> 14:47.640]  And that's gonna take a little bit of retooling the way that we talk about the free software movement.
[14:48.460 --> 14:51.740]  So, the tactics I'm gonna share now, it's not just for...
[14:51.740 --> 14:52.680]  Not just for women.
[14:52.900 --> 14:54.440]  So, we'll move on from that.
[14:54.540 --> 14:58.860]  But these are more general community organizing tactics.
[14:58.860 --> 15:03.300]  So, you can use them to fill your group up with more white men, too.
[15:04.120 --> 15:04.540]  So...
[15:04.540 --> 15:05.080]  If you want.
[15:06.020 --> 15:07.180]  Nothing wrong with white men.
[15:08.800 --> 15:09.600]  There are also...
[15:09.600 --> 15:10.320]  There's no shortcuts.
[15:10.560 --> 15:11.780]  So, this is another bit.
[15:13.300 --> 15:14.140]  There's no...
[15:14.140 --> 15:20.980]  You can't just go to the place where you hold your user group meeting and then just put a little sign up that says, like, women now welcome.
[15:21.580 --> 15:25.960]  Or, like, hey, you don't have to be white to come join us next Thursday.
[15:26.540 --> 15:29.240]  Like, there's gotta be a little bit more...
[15:29.240 --> 15:29.960]  Oh, I see.
[15:30.100 --> 15:30.960]  You have that little...
[15:30.960 --> 15:32.480]  I got why I keep...
[15:32.480 --> 15:33.640]  Sorry, I keep touching stuff.
[15:35.580 --> 15:36.000]  Anyway.
[15:36.380 --> 15:41.820]  So, how do we get to that place where we have more people and we're building a larger movement?
[15:42.540 --> 15:44.220]  Cesar Chavez was...
[15:44.220 --> 15:48.320]  He organized migrant farm workers, which is one...
[15:48.320 --> 15:50.480]  I guess no one had ever thought that that was...
[15:50.480 --> 15:52.400]  Like, would be useful or worth doing.
[15:52.720 --> 15:55.200]  But he was extremely successful at it.
[15:55.320 --> 15:57.060]  And from the outside, it...
[15:57.060 --> 16:00.960]  Like, people thought, he must have some kind of, like, crazy magic powers.
[16:01.020 --> 16:10.740]  Like, how did he get these, like, you know, migrant farm workers to organize and to show up for meetings and to demand better wages, better hours, and better conditions?
[16:10.980 --> 16:17.000]  And his answer was that he talked to one person, and then he talked to another person, and then he talked to another...
[16:17.000 --> 16:18.380]  Until the reporter was like, okay.
[16:18.640 --> 16:18.940]  Wow.
[16:19.160 --> 16:19.440]  All right.
[16:20.980 --> 16:23.720]  So, a little bit about talking to people in the...
[16:23.720 --> 16:27.760]  With the specific goal of building your organization.
[16:29.780 --> 16:32.300]  I'm gonna go into each of these in a little bit more depth.
[16:33.380 --> 16:36.080]  So, you have to define what your goal is.
[16:36.080 --> 16:44.440]  If your goal is to get your local library to use free software in the public kiosks, then that's what it is.
[16:44.540 --> 16:50.620]  So, when you invite people in, you say, we're forming a group to get free software on the public kiosks at the library.
[16:52.300 --> 17:00.040]  I know that sounds kind of, like, weird, but, like, a lot of times people try and say, hey, we're gonna hang out next Thursday, something about Linux, maybe...
[17:00.040 --> 17:02.460]  And then they're like, why didn't anyone show up?
[17:02.540 --> 17:04.620]  Or, why did they only come for the snacks?
[17:05.840 --> 17:07.720]  So, in addition to...
[17:07.720 --> 17:10.980]  Once you've figured out what your message is, you need to stay on your message.
[17:11.460 --> 17:13.180]  And be upfront about your goal.
[17:13.440 --> 17:15.560]  Like, I don't know if you...
[17:16.280 --> 17:22.620]  I don't know if any of you were ever sort of naive in a large city and had, like, a really nice person invite you for pizza somewhere.
[17:22.620 --> 17:26.440]  And then you were like, wow, the big city's not all impersonal.
[17:26.640 --> 17:27.520]  People are super nice.
[17:27.780 --> 17:31.520]  And then you found out that it was just they wanted you to come to church with them.
[17:31.700 --> 17:33.440]  And there wasn't even that much pizza.
[17:33.700 --> 17:37.300]  So, don't do the bait and switch, because then people don't actually stick around.
[17:37.440 --> 17:42.780]  If you're gonna go to all the trouble to invite people for something, then invite them for what you actually want them to come for.
[17:48.840 --> 17:54.240]  So, in that vein, try and keep attention-getting measures thematically related.
[17:54.520 --> 17:58.020]  Like, it might be super fun to ride a Mr. Peanut balloon.
[17:58.480 --> 18:07.780]  But if you're trying to get folks to come to a free software activist group, you're gonna get people that are just coming for the ride in the Mr. Peanut balloon.
[18:07.780 --> 18:10.820]  So, try and keep, like, the attention-getting stuff thematically related.
[18:11.080 --> 18:14.400]  For instance, we have a GNU costume at the Free Software Foundation.
[18:14.800 --> 18:17.460]  So, which is thematically related.
[18:22.140 --> 18:23.300]  Pictures later, maybe.
[18:23.860 --> 18:25.800]  And then separate out distractions.
[18:25.800 --> 18:31.400]  If your goal is to get, like, a Montessori school.
[18:31.580 --> 18:37.100]  Like, maybe you're organizing your other Montessori parents and be like, we want you to teach your kids to use free software.
[18:38.080 --> 18:41.860]  But say you also happen to be, like, a communist.
[18:42.180 --> 18:46.760]  And you're like, wow, everyone here at this meeting about the Montessori school is super nice.
[18:47.020 --> 18:54.160]  I should just take over that agenda and get them all to come to, like, this event to build up my communist organization next week.
[18:54.780 --> 18:55.300]  No.
[18:55.860 --> 18:58.060]  Just invite separately.
[18:58.300 --> 18:59.340]  Keep that separate.
[18:59.660 --> 19:00.540]  Like, you know.
[19:00.720 --> 19:02.060]  So, stay on target.
[19:03.240 --> 19:04.780]  So, events or meetings.
[19:05.300 --> 19:09.140]  These are really good because it gives you a specific time and place to focus on.
[19:09.340 --> 19:14.360]  You can do an IRC meeting if that's, you're not geographically in the same place.
[19:14.780 --> 19:17.140]  But the face-to-face meeting is really good.
[19:17.360 --> 19:23.220]  If you can't do a face-to-face meeting because of the geography, when you start, I suggest at least doing a phone conference call thing.
[19:23.220 --> 19:30.020]  Because, like, a lot of the nuance of the way people talk gets lost in the digital stuff.
[19:31.080 --> 19:37.120]  And when you're looking for folks to work on something you're really excited about, it's good to know who else is actually excited.
[19:38.700 --> 19:46.320]  The events also, if you have, like, a lot of new folks come in at once, and you can cut out the weirdness of just having, like, one person.
[19:46.580 --> 19:57.840]  Like, so, one of the things, like, Ruby did a lot of work to build up their community and bring the needle of, like, how many women were involved.
[19:57.840 --> 20:03.380]  And they said that the best thing was to make sure that they weren't inviting new women to participate, like, one at a time.
[20:03.740 --> 20:04.900]  Because that was really weird.
[20:05.040 --> 20:07.720]  Because they'd be the one woman and there'd be, like, 20 dudes there.
[20:09.300 --> 20:11.200]  But, like, that can be weird for anyone.
[20:11.340 --> 20:14.180]  It's like, oh, it's 20 people that all know each other and me.
[20:14.660 --> 20:16.640]  So, you know, a big group.
[20:17.020 --> 20:18.060]  So, planning your event.
[20:18.260 --> 20:21.080]  In that vein of avoiding weirdness, a public place.
[20:22.020 --> 20:25.560]  Someone's house is kind of strange for stuff.
[20:27.220 --> 20:28.400]  Entice people with snacks.
[20:28.640 --> 20:30.260]  Don't let the snacks overshadow your goal.
[20:30.400 --> 20:35.580]  But, like, keep in mind that, you know, it's...
[20:35.580 --> 20:39.420]  You don't want people not coming because they're like, oh, I'm hungry, so I'll just go home or whatever.
[20:40.060 --> 20:41.020]  And have a plan.
[20:41.320 --> 20:41.720]  Don't...
[20:41.720 --> 20:44.380]  Disorganize doesn't encourage people to come back for a second meeting.
[20:46.300 --> 20:47.220]  So, targeting.
[20:47.440 --> 20:49.520]  A bit about, like, thinking about who you're inviting.
[20:50.500 --> 20:57.440]  So, if you wanted to start a group at your school, then you might make posters and put them in the student cafeteria.
[20:57.880 --> 21:01.340]  You might get the email address for the CS department.
[21:02.660 --> 21:08.080]  You probably wouldn't spend time handing out flyers in front of the supermarket in that town.
[21:08.560 --> 21:08.900]  For instance.
[21:11.060 --> 21:12.020]  Sorry about that.
[21:13.200 --> 21:16.120]  And so, tailoring your approach as much as possible.
[21:16.340 --> 21:17.000]  And then repeating.
[21:17.000 --> 21:21.440]  Like, if you sent one note to the CS department saying, like, we're going to have a meeting next month.
[21:21.680 --> 21:24.440]  You should probably also remind people a couple days in advance.
[21:24.800 --> 21:27.480]  And, you know, it's...
[21:27.480 --> 21:32.300]  Some of the things about asking people to do things, and that includes, like, an event.
[21:33.500 --> 21:40.780]  It's more useful to ask the same person three times to come to something than it is to ask three people each once.
[21:41.320 --> 21:44.100]  I know everyone likes to think, like, I totally heard it the first time.
[21:44.260 --> 21:45.260]  Like, I keep track of everything.
[21:45.420 --> 21:47.080]  But that's actually not how people are.
[21:48.640 --> 21:50.500]  And then also, make it personal.
[21:50.720 --> 21:55.240]  So, find out what the folks that you're inviting are interested in, and make a connection for them.
[21:55.380 --> 21:57.760]  Like, why would they want to come and do this?
[21:59.940 --> 22:03.920]  You know, it's... you might say, like, hey, so you're...
[22:04.680 --> 22:06.400]  I see you at the library all the time.
[22:06.640 --> 22:08.480]  Wouldn't you rather be using free software there?
[22:09.760 --> 22:12.180]  Send individualized emails to people if you can.
[22:12.820 --> 22:14.320]  And talk to people in person.
[22:14.620 --> 22:20.080]  So that they know, like, you didn't just, like, BCC everyone and invited, like, 500 people.
[22:20.200 --> 22:21.300]  Like, you really want them to come.
[22:21.860 --> 22:23.400]  And again, the repeating.
[22:23.680 --> 22:24.920]  I'm repeating the repeating.
[22:26.400 --> 22:28.900]  So, you did all that, and they're here.
[22:29.060 --> 22:29.480]  Now what?
[22:30.920 --> 22:32.200]  Make sure you run a good meeting.
[22:33.560 --> 22:35.820]  A good meeting has a couple of different components.
[22:36.980 --> 22:38.040]  It has an agenda.
[22:38.720 --> 22:39.520]  And then...
[22:39.520 --> 22:40.500]  Sorry about that.
[22:42.060 --> 22:44.020]  And then we stick to the agenda.
[22:44.340 --> 22:50.140]  We don't, like, blow it out to, like, oh my gosh, did you guys read about Lindsay Lohan for 40 minutes in the middle?
[22:52.020 --> 22:53.720]  Follow up with people after the meeting.
[22:54.340 --> 22:55.360]  Analyze what you just did.
[22:55.520 --> 23:01.040]  One thing that's really good at the end of a meeting is to say, like, hey, so what did people like about this meeting?
[23:01.040 --> 23:03.680]  And what do you guys think we should change for next time?
[23:03.900 --> 23:10.260]  So maybe someone will say, like, so the coffee shop is nice, but it's really super loud on Thursdays because they have reggae night.
[23:10.260 --> 23:13.100]  So we should maybe move to Wednesdays or find another location.
[23:13.820 --> 23:15.320]  And then actually do that.
[23:15.460 --> 23:16.360]  Improve it for next time.
[23:17.600 --> 23:26.100]  A couple other things to keep in mind about setting up an event or a meeting is do introductions at the beginning of every gathering.
[23:26.420 --> 23:31.420]  It's, like, that gives people the sense, like, you're glad they're there because we want to hear that you're here.
[23:31.420 --> 23:33.260]  And then thank people for coming.
[23:34.600 --> 23:43.120]  Give your new people something to do so that they know, like, hey, we're not one of those projects, like James is over here, where we have too many volunteers.
[23:43.440 --> 23:47.780]  We're one of those projects where we really want you to, like, get doing some stuff.
[23:48.900 --> 23:53.020]  And then after you give people something, make sure that you ask them about it later.
[23:53.260 --> 23:59.000]  Like, don't just give them, like, some Charlie work and then never follow up because that's not really going to be motivating.
[24:00.200 --> 24:06.540]  So I like to think of new volunteers or new participants as seedlings.
[24:06.960 --> 24:14.400]  So if you think about it in that way, like, we're trying to, like, grow and water folks and, you know, but without, like, smothering them.
[24:16.500 --> 24:28.200]  A great way to... this is sort of a little bit more, like, after people have come to a couple of meetings, you're sort of doing a leadership development a little bit.
[24:29.860 --> 24:30.800]  One-on-ones.
[24:31.120 --> 24:32.880]  The best way to do that is one-on-ones.
[24:33.900 --> 24:44.320]  So, you know, you might say, like, hey, so Alice, you've been coming to, like, our free library meetings for a little while and you did a great job with those flyers.
[24:44.320 --> 24:45.580]  Like, that was super cool.
[24:46.920 --> 24:48.940]  Let's talk about, like, how's that going?
[24:49.180 --> 24:50.500]  Did you enjoy doing the flyers?
[24:50.500 --> 24:51.940]  Do you want to do more flyers?
[24:52.140 --> 24:54.020]  Or would you rather do something else?
[24:54.260 --> 24:56.020]  Or, you know, how's that going?
[24:56.460 --> 24:58.100]  And then actually... and then listen.
[24:58.960 --> 25:12.780]  The one of the things, like, when people do these, and I don't know if anyone in this room has done this kind of an interaction before, but the person who started the group tends to be super excited about the cause.
[25:12.960 --> 25:18.500]  And then they have this... they schedule this meeting to talk with a new volunteer about how it's going for them.
[25:18.640 --> 25:25.480]  And then they bombard them with an hour and a half of how awesome the movement is and how great all the stuff they have planned is.
[25:25.480 --> 25:29.880]  And then they have no idea whether that person is like, I hate making flyers.
[25:30.740 --> 25:33.660]  I only did it because no one else would, and I hate it.
[25:33.820 --> 25:35.860]  So you've got to ask and then you've got to listen.
[25:37.780 --> 25:39.660]  Oh, and stay on topic with those.
[25:39.880 --> 25:47.680]  Like, again, the... if you have a group that likes to meet socially as well, do it after the meeting.
[25:47.860 --> 25:55.600]  So you have, like, the meeting somewhere, and then you go to a separate place for beer or whatever, and you just make it separate.
[25:55.940 --> 25:58.120]  Like, it just makes it better.
[26:00.520 --> 26:02.760]  So you have these folks in delegating.
[26:02.880 --> 26:08.160]  So if you're leading the group at the beginning, you want to be delegating.
[26:08.640 --> 26:12.060]  So one person can get one person's worth of stuff done.
[26:12.240 --> 26:14.760]  Two people can get two person's worth of stuff done.
[26:14.900 --> 26:16.460]  And then, you know, and so on and so on.
[26:16.500 --> 26:17.440]  You can see how that works out.
[26:18.280 --> 26:20.220]  Work is digital in that way.
[26:20.220 --> 26:30.520]  So when we talked about, like, free software being the minority desktop operating system, and then 2% women involved, we have, like, a huge way to go.
[26:30.780 --> 26:39.360]  So you can give out, like, work in that direction to make that better hundreds of times, and you'll still have work.
[26:39.500 --> 26:40.920]  So that's what I mean when it's digital.
[26:41.080 --> 26:42.740]  Like, it's like copies of music or whatever.
[26:44.340 --> 26:48.340]  Another reason to delegate is what people call the bus factor.
[26:48.580 --> 26:54.040]  So, like, how many people could get hit by a bus, and then your entire effort would be completely sunk.
[26:55.180 --> 26:56.960]  And maybe that might be a little grim.
[26:57.200 --> 27:03.220]  But you could think of it in a more positive way of, like, the...
[27:03.220 --> 27:07.720]  I met someone super awesome from England, and I'm getting married and moving there factor.
[27:07.720 --> 27:10.160]  If the bus thing is too grim for you.
[27:10.680 --> 27:17.740]  There's also the burnout factor, or, you know, that could also be part of the moving to England to get married.
[27:18.740 --> 27:22.560]  But if people do too much, then it gets really crazy.
[27:22.780 --> 27:24.440]  And they get really crazy.
[27:24.620 --> 27:27.460]  And then they start to dread, like, oh, God.
[27:27.920 --> 27:33.020]  I took on, like, 500 things at the last meeting, and people are going to want to know if I did them all.
[27:33.020 --> 27:35.520]  And so, it's just, it's not good.
[27:37.380 --> 27:38.160]  Let's see.
[27:39.060 --> 27:40.940]  Delegating also encourages documentation.
[27:40.940 --> 27:43.020]  So, you might delegate the same thing.
[27:43.240 --> 27:49.580]  Like, say you have, like, something, some category of work to do that you have, like, 50 of.
[27:49.840 --> 27:50.960]  Like, maybe it's bugs.
[27:51.140 --> 27:54.520]  Maybe it's, like, libraries we want to call, or whatever it is.
[27:56.200 --> 28:08.280]  So, instead of delegating each of those things and being, like, um, I think, and then, oh, crap, last time I did this thing, you document it.
[28:08.480 --> 28:10.360]  So, then you can delegate it really easy.
[28:10.580 --> 28:11.860]  And documentation is great.
[28:12.020 --> 28:12.940]  It helps with that bus thing.
[28:14.080 --> 28:14.880]  It's good times.
[28:16.920 --> 28:19.640]  So, just to recap, how am I on time?
[28:21.040 --> 28:21.100]  What?
[28:21.580 --> 28:22.020]  How?
[28:22.640 --> 28:23.320]  Half past.
[28:23.600 --> 28:24.000]  Oh, okay.
[28:24.100 --> 28:24.880]  We'll have a lot of time for questions.
[28:26.000 --> 28:33.340]  So, free software, distributed power, which I think is preferable to clutched, monopolized power.
[28:34.740 --> 28:36.620]  More people and different people.
[28:36.840 --> 28:39.220]  It's going to be good for the free software movement.
[28:39.440 --> 28:43.820]  It's also going to be good for the software itself and more people wanting to use it.
[28:45.220 --> 28:48.720]  So, and then invite people thoughtfully and repeatedly.
[28:49.500 --> 29:07.420]  One of the things that we don't often think about is when we're recruiting people to do something that's not a job, is that that work or that time occupies the same space that they would normally spend on social activities or vegging out watching a movie or whatever.
[29:07.680 --> 29:18.420]  So, if it's onerous and people are rude and no one appreciates them, they're not going to keep coming back because you aren't paying them and they could just watch a movie at home.
[29:18.640 --> 29:27.220]  So, keep that in mind that, like, a lot of times for people, activism occupies the same block in their life that social stuff normally would.
[29:28.920 --> 29:30.240]  Also, share the work.
[29:30.880 --> 29:37.320]  Absolutely share the work as much as you can, as often as you can, in as many ways as you can.
[29:39.080 --> 29:48.520]  One thing, one pitfall that tends to happen for folks is they get to the place where they have taken on everything for so long that they feel like they can't delegate it.
[29:48.740 --> 29:53.140]  So, way before you get to that part, make sure you're sharing the work.
[29:57.160 --> 30:00.360]  Once you've done it, you'll see it in action and it's super exciting.
[30:01.300 --> 30:05.180]  You have to keep in mind that they're not going to do it exactly the way you would have done it.
[30:05.260 --> 30:06.020]  That's not the point.
[30:06.220 --> 30:07.980]  The point is that stuff is getting done.
[30:08.380 --> 30:11.720]  And now there's like three of you working full tilt on getting something done.
[30:11.900 --> 30:18.000]  And eventually, if you teach them to delegate, there could be like six or nine or, you know, exponential.
[30:19.340 --> 30:25.140]  Make sure that after you delegate that work, and recapping, that people are getting something back.
[30:25.520 --> 30:27.140]  That they're, you know...
[30:27.760 --> 30:35.500]  One of the things like that you might discuss in the one-on-ones is like, hey, so you're in school.
[30:35.800 --> 30:37.460]  Like, are you doing a CS degree?
[30:37.620 --> 30:38.740]  Are you doing like poli-sci?
[30:39.220 --> 30:42.800]  Is this fitting a niche that you hope to build on for your career?
[30:42.800 --> 30:51.460]  Or is this like, you hate that job at Target and like you like to be able to do something where you get to think and aren't treated like a monkey?
[30:51.880 --> 30:58.340]  Like, find out where the stuff that you're doing with people fits in so that you can kind of like channel it.
[30:58.440 --> 31:04.040]  Like, you would obviously delegate different sorts of things to a volunteer who's like, I hope to put this on my resume.
[31:04.840 --> 31:06.920]  To like, I would do anything.
[31:07.160 --> 31:08.200]  Like, the harder the better.
[31:08.400 --> 31:10.720]  I am going to shoot myself in the head at the end of my work day.
[31:10.880 --> 31:15.960]  So, just kind of make sure that people are getting what they want back out of the experience.
[31:16.580 --> 31:20.180]  And then always, always, always be fostering leadership.
[31:22.400 --> 31:26.560]  That's just, you know, that's probably the biggest piece there.
[31:28.740 --> 31:30.820]  So, I'm going to open it up for questions.
[31:31.140 --> 31:36.160]  I tried not to tell every single thing I know about everything in here.
[31:36.320 --> 31:38.200]  So, I could still answer questions.
[31:40.100 --> 31:40.540]  Hi.
[31:40.980 --> 31:47.820]  There's a type of diversification that you didn't talk about that I'm hoping you might have an opportunity to discuss a little bit more for us.
[31:47.960 --> 31:48.200]  Sure.
[31:48.860 --> 31:54.860]  I'm the leader of an open source project that very happily the city of New York is actually grant funding.
[31:55.720 --> 32:04.860]  We always would like to get more community members, but it's very difficult to address the divide between people who are being paid to do this as part of their day job versus people who don't.
[32:05.400 --> 32:11.480]  And trying to invite someone into that group whenever I can say, well, I get a paycheck, but you're not, is I think a very difficult thing.
[32:11.680 --> 32:13.180]  Can you speak anything about that?
[32:13.240 --> 32:14.180]  Yeah, I can actually.
[32:16.320 --> 32:17.880]  So, there is that.
[32:18.040 --> 32:21.380]  And there's a way to sort of dovetail that in a way that's good.
[32:21.380 --> 32:31.380]  So, one of the things that people tend to do when they're, like, a paid person, they have a lot of, like, work that nobody really wants to do.
[32:31.660 --> 32:34.720]  And so then they get, like, an unpaid person, and they're like, oh!
[32:34.960 --> 32:40.560]  And then they, like, here, stuff like 9,000 envelopes, and then I have 14 hours of data entry.
[32:40.720 --> 32:41.080]  Thanks!
[32:42.300 --> 32:43.080]  Don't do that.
[32:43.540 --> 32:44.180]  That's bad.
[32:44.720 --> 32:48.000]  I mean, I'm making a little bit caricature so that you can understand.
[32:49.380 --> 32:59.020]  Make sure that, so we, one of the political organizations that I worked at, we would, this is before a lot of email, we would send out these little postcard action alerts.
[32:59.460 --> 33:09.840]  So, I would have a volunteer who's not being paid, like, a summer intern, and I'd say, like, okay, so, at the end of this, you are going to put little postcard stamps on about 400 little postcards.
[33:09.840 --> 33:23.100]  But, I want you to do the research, I want you to write up the text for the postcard, I want you to learn the layout software, and design the postcard, run it by me, and, you know, it's completely a mentorship type of thing.
[33:23.320 --> 33:28.920]  And then they are so psyched to put little postcard stamps on all those postcards.
[33:28.920 --> 33:47.260]  So, if you can make a project like a whole thing that encapsulates something that's interesting and kind of, like, allows them to grow and learn some new things and gives them some real responsibility along with, you know, the monotonous stuff, that helps out a lot.
[33:47.640 --> 33:48.140]  Okay.
[33:48.400 --> 33:53.680]  Do you think that there's, you know, long-term viability for building large communities in that same sort of model?
[33:54.200 --> 33:54.600]  Yeah.
[33:54.860 --> 33:55.180]  Really?
[33:55.520 --> 33:56.580]  Yeah, I do.
[33:56.580 --> 33:56.600]  I do.
[33:57.940 --> 34:02.680]  I mean, it's... the tenor is a little bit different when you have unpaid folks.
[34:02.860 --> 34:10.580]  Like, you might buy them pizza, you might, you know, not get all... when they're goofing off for a few minutes and stuff.
[34:10.780 --> 34:16.620]  But, I think you can bring in unpaid folks with paid folks to work on something together.
[34:16.860 --> 34:16.940]  Yeah.
[34:17.400 --> 34:17.640]  Thanks.
[34:18.020 --> 34:18.220]  Sure.
[34:20.000 --> 34:34.320]  This might be a little bit off topic about free software, big tent, but it's, I think, closely related to the last, around 20 years, there has been a really dramatic drop in the number of women involved in computer science.
[34:35.940 --> 34:40.860]  And it seems really counterintuitive because girls are way more verbal than boys.
[34:41.100 --> 34:48.720]  So, like, things about writing code and that sort of stuff seems like they would be a thing that would be appealing to women who are, like, looking at a career choice or something like that.
[34:48.720 --> 34:56.420]  So, I'm just wondering if you know, or if anybody else in the room has an insight into what's gone on with women in computer science.
[34:56.420 --> 34:59.460]  Oh, I'm gonna let Mackenzie talk to that one a little bit.
[35:02.260 --> 35:03.540]  So, there's this book.
[35:03.700 --> 35:07.140]  It's called Unlocking the Clubhouse Women in Computer Science, or Women in Computing.
[35:07.240 --> 35:16.460]  And it's from a four-year study done at Carnegie Mellon University from 1995 to 1999, during which they increased their female enrollment from 7% to 42%.
[35:17.080 --> 35:22.580]  And they went from having an attrition rate, which is, like, quit rate of twice that of men, to being exactly the same as men.
[35:24.100 --> 35:26.460]  And there's lots of advice.
[35:26.460 --> 35:29.320]  And, like, here's what we did throughout that book, and you should totally read it.
[35:31.720 --> 35:32.800]  Unlocking the Clubhouse.
[35:33.160 --> 35:33.920]  It's a good book.
[35:35.500 --> 35:36.740]  I think, how do you make a talk?
[35:41.520 --> 35:44.160]  Yeah, I think that...
[35:44.160 --> 35:53.760]  And that's one of the things that I think, as far as building the free software movement that we're looking at, that we felt it's critical to get free software to girls.
[35:54.020 --> 35:57.640]  I didn't go into that a lot, because that's a really specific task.
[35:58.940 --> 35:59.660]  Hi, Deb.
[36:00.220 --> 36:03.940]  I'm also a former political organizer turned free software organizer.
[36:04.800 --> 36:09.400]  And hearing your stories, I don't want to say I disagree with your philosophy.
[36:09.400 --> 36:10.640]  It's a little stronger word.
[36:10.840 --> 36:17.700]  But in the work that I and the folks I work with are doing, the priorities are totally different.
[36:18.300 --> 36:20.140]  And we've been very successful.
[36:21.040 --> 36:23.540]  And, you know, I could give example after example.
[36:23.740 --> 36:28.980]  And I was wondering, A, how successful do you feel that your approach is?
[36:28.980 --> 36:38.320]  And can you maybe give a quick case study of how you think that your Alinsky style organizing has worked out in free software organizing?
[36:39.300 --> 36:40.360]  I'm mostly...
[36:40.360 --> 36:40.900]  Sorry.
[36:41.220 --> 36:44.500]  I'm mostly speaking to, like, specifically organizing.
[36:44.520 --> 36:47.000]  I'm not necessarily talking about...
[36:47.000 --> 36:49.480]  Some of those things are applicable for...
[36:51.700 --> 36:52.540]  What do you call it?
[36:52.640 --> 36:53.020]  For...
[36:53.020 --> 36:55.340]  For building, like, a coding project.
[36:55.680 --> 36:58.020]  But that's not what I'm primarily interested in.
[36:58.080 --> 36:59.580]  I'm primarily interested in activists.
[37:00.860 --> 37:06.200]  We've been using that to build the Women's Caucus at the Free Software Foundation.
[37:06.360 --> 37:08.780]  And I think that a lot...
[37:08.780 --> 37:14.500]  I've seen a lot of those strategies be useful in organizers that are setting up free software events.
[37:14.500 --> 37:19.840]  So the making people feel invited and then also, like, keeping track of the minutes.
[37:20.480 --> 37:24.420]  We've done a lot of that in different aspects of the free software movement.
[37:24.420 --> 37:28.100]  So I don't know if I'm completely answering your question.
[37:28.480 --> 37:39.320]  If you could just give a quick example of something that you can point to to give a demonstration of why you think that this approach is successful, I would appreciate that.
[37:39.320 --> 37:39.640]  Yeah.
[37:40.100 --> 37:44.340]  I think the thing I have the most experience with is the Women's Caucus at the Free Software Foundation.
[37:44.380 --> 37:49.480]  So I individually invited every single person in there and followed up and followed up and followed up.
[37:49.660 --> 37:50.660]  We run...
[37:50.660 --> 37:51.880]  We have meetings each month.
[37:51.900 --> 37:57.620]  And that's a growing list and a growing group of people involved in...
[37:58.300 --> 37:59.460]  Let me back up a little.
[37:59.560 --> 38:04.020]  The Women's Caucus is an initiative to increase women's participation in free software.
[38:04.020 --> 38:07.120]  So that's all activists, not code writing.
[38:08.080 --> 38:09.460]  Does that answer your question?
[38:09.780 --> 38:10.340]  It does.
[38:10.720 --> 38:10.860]  Okay.
[38:11.660 --> 38:12.200]  Thanks.
[38:13.140 --> 38:13.680]  Hi.
[38:13.800 --> 38:14.480]  I'm David.
[38:14.680 --> 38:16.940]  I'm actually a member of the GCC Steering Committee.
[38:17.080 --> 38:23.860]  I wanted to answer a little bit about the question of the divide between people who were paid to work on a project and those who were not.
[38:23.860 --> 38:31.760]  That in our project, we see that there's a lot of different motivations for people to participate in a project.
[38:32.100 --> 38:44.380]  Maybe for, you know, just wanting to gain some additional expertise, be a part of a different community, may want to gain some experience to potentially get a job.
[38:44.520 --> 38:51.260]  They may want to, you know, be useful if they're a member or, you know, a student at a university.
[38:51.260 --> 38:56.020]  So there are a lot of different communities that one can draw upon to participate.
[38:56.500 --> 39:01.240]  And one shouldn't assume that every potential member has the same motivation.
[39:01.480 --> 39:12.080]  And so you should look for different ways that they may want to participate and can lend a different, you know, facet, a different aspect to the project with their different background.
[39:12.460 --> 39:15.420]  That may not be about just getting paid to do the work.
[39:16.920 --> 39:18.080]  Yeah, I agree.
[39:18.280 --> 39:24.700]  And I think it's also, it's also good to, yeah, to keep in mind the different kinds of tasks.
[39:25.040 --> 39:33.660]  And I've given other talks where we talked about, like, making sure that you're valuing all the different kinds of tasks that you might have.
[39:33.660 --> 39:36.680]  So I think that's, it's good.
[39:38.120 --> 39:45.940]  Hi, I just want to, can you, it's interesting to me that there's software movements where people do get burned out and software movements that don't get burned out.
[39:46.160 --> 39:52.740]  And I'm just wondering if you could share some lessons learned from the FSF of how to not get burned out in working in free software.
[39:57.140 --> 40:02.160]  If it's possible, it seems like, I mean, not to bring up RMS, but he's definitely been at it forever not getting burned out.
[40:02.340 --> 40:04.340]  I'm not saying everyone should be like that, but...
[40:05.940 --> 40:08.140]  I don't know if I can tell you how RMS does that.
[40:10.520 --> 40:17.000]  So I, as far as burnout, I think the delegating definitely helps.
[40:17.480 --> 40:26.860]  And it, like, so, we have a lot of projects that have been around for a while, like, in the GNU repository.
[40:27.220 --> 40:40.840]  And when I talk to folks that have been maintaining the project and don't have a co-maintainer for a long, long time, the pattern has been this, where, like, they started writing the code, someone asked them to be the maintainer, they became the maintainer,
[40:41.040 --> 40:45.420]  they remain the maintainer, the sole maintainer, for years and years and years.
[40:45.640 --> 40:53.080]  And then stuff comes along and people are like, you can't just have, like, a text-only website that gets updated, like, every two years.
[40:53.240 --> 40:53.960]  And they're like, ugh.
[40:54.140 --> 40:57.200]  So then they add, like, writing a website to their list of things.
[40:57.320 --> 41:04.040]  And then they're like, oh, you should maybe send, like, a little note to LWN when you have a new release, because that will help you get the word out about your thing.
[41:04.140 --> 41:04.840]  And they're like, ugh.
[41:05.060 --> 41:07.800]  So now I have to add writing a press release to my list of things.
[41:08.020 --> 41:12.820]  And then, like, on and on and on and on to where they're not writing code anymore at all.
[41:12.920 --> 41:14.600]  And they're not happy about that.
[41:14.800 --> 41:20.960]  So if they're delegating those tasks, then they would be just doing the things that they wanted.
[41:21.160 --> 41:22.880]  So the delegating can really help out.
[41:23.020 --> 41:25.120]  And finding other people that want to do the other parts.
[41:25.780 --> 41:30.440]  And making sure that you're gravitating towards the parts that you want to do.
[41:30.440 --> 41:35.040]  So instead of just quietly taking on shit you don't want to do, don't do that.
[41:35.680 --> 41:38.880]  Find someone else who's like, wow, I love accounting.
[41:39.780 --> 41:41.740]  There are a couple people out there like that.
[41:41.860 --> 41:43.720]  If you find one, treat them well.
[41:45.480 --> 41:47.280]  Do people have any other... Oh, Steven.
[41:47.480 --> 41:50.260]  Just to add one more thing to your question about getting burnt out.
[41:50.640 --> 41:54.940]  I've noticed that projects that set realistic goals end up being more successful.
[41:55.280 --> 42:04.280]  So if you have this, you know, sort of nebulous goal of creating something fantastic that everybody's going to love and it's going to take years of coding, it's going to fail probably.
[42:04.500 --> 42:05.140]  It might happen.
[42:05.320 --> 42:07.400]  I mean, the GNU project sort of started like that.
[42:07.540 --> 42:11.440]  But there were goals set along the way to create a text editor and then a compiler.
[42:11.920 --> 42:18.660]  So if you set goals along the way and you achieve those, it's more of an incentive to keep going until you reach your final goal.
[42:20.280 --> 42:21.120]  Yeah, absolutely.
[42:22.100 --> 42:22.520]  Hi.
[42:22.760 --> 42:24.660]  I'm actually a grad student at NYU.
[42:24.920 --> 42:30.760]  And I'm in the process of organizing, like, kind of an open source project for a bunch of our master's students.
[42:31.640 --> 42:37.580]  And the thing I'm encountering is I'm kind of finding that people have a lot of trouble getting involved in open source software.
[42:37.880 --> 42:48.380]  So I'm trying to find, sorry, I'm trying to find project leaders to kind of hold the student's hand, you know, give them a walkthrough, give them a sign that say, go read this code, figure out this bug.
[42:48.660 --> 42:49.700]  And I'm really surprised.
[42:49.840 --> 42:57.900]  I get some people who think it's like the best idea ever, but about half the people I talk to just tell me flat out, you will never find anybody to do this.
[42:58.100 --> 43:02.980]  And, you know, I think I really offended somebody earlier today that I knew because this guy said, you'll never find it.
[43:03.040 --> 43:04.180]  I said, I already have.
[43:04.340 --> 43:08.300]  In fact, you know one of them, but I'm not telling you who it is because you don't really...
[43:08.300 --> 43:10.480]  And it's like, what are you supposed to do when people tell you?
[43:11.180 --> 43:12.160]  Nobody will help you.
[43:12.360 --> 43:14.240]  Nobody will help you, like, hold these students' hands.
[43:14.360 --> 43:16.380]  I'm like, I know it can be done.
[43:16.560 --> 43:17.080]  It's like...
[43:17.080 --> 43:17.620]  Yeah.
[43:17.620 --> 43:18.680]  A lot of no.
[43:18.880 --> 43:20.180]  I'm hearing a lot of no.
[43:20.380 --> 43:20.980]  It's kind of shocking.
[43:21.140 --> 43:24.020]  That can be a bummer for sure.
[43:24.300 --> 43:31.280]  And I think, like, the person who said, like, you can't do it, like, first of all, is off the list of people who could potentially mentor.
[43:34.640 --> 43:40.140]  Even if you did manage to wear him down or lure him with pizza, should not do it.
[43:40.320 --> 43:43.760]  But, yeah, the mentoring does work.
[43:44.260 --> 43:47.200]  There's a lot of great examples, like the Debbie and Women.
[43:47.520 --> 43:50.560]  And it's not even, like, so much...
[43:51.520 --> 43:54.500]  It's not like it's dumbing it down or even hand-holding.
[43:54.580 --> 44:03.000]  It's just like, oh, if I try it and it doesn't work the first time, who do I ask that's not going to make me feel like a moron?
[44:03.580 --> 44:06.280]  And so that's, like, the primary function.
[44:07.100 --> 44:15.220]  There's a little bit off-topic, but kind of on the topic of women in technology is what's called the imposter syndrome.
[44:15.580 --> 44:20.700]  Like, women tend to be more prone to, like, everyone else, like, never f*cks up.
[44:20.700 --> 44:21.660]  It's just me.
[44:21.860 --> 44:30.740]  Like, I magically got to this place at the top, and one day they're going to find out that, like, I just learned it a little bit at a time and got here.
[44:31.540 --> 44:33.980]  Which is, apparently, it's common.
[44:33.980 --> 44:38.940]  So, yeah, so the fear of failing is huge.
[44:39.000 --> 44:40.780]  And that keeps a lot of people out.
[44:40.880 --> 44:50.840]  Especially, like, you file a bug report and you're like, didn't you read, like, stipulation 947 about filing a bug report where it says, no semicolons?
[44:52.540 --> 44:54.340]  Like, alright, never mind.
[44:54.500 --> 44:56.760]  I'll never file a bug report for your project again.
[44:56.760 --> 45:12.540]  So, yeah, I think to just persevere and find those people that are helpful and just kind of stop bothering to discuss it with people that are, you know, maybe feeling too cynical to be a mentor.
[45:14.240 --> 45:16.080]  So, is there anything else?
[45:17.720 --> 45:18.000]  Okay.
[45:18.840 --> 45:19.760]  Thanks, you guys.
[45:26.150 --> 45:28.570]  I have a question that's not really on top.
[45:28.730 --> 45:29.570]  Oh, okay.