[00:00.900 --> 00:03.220]  This is not consciousness hacking.
[00:08.320 --> 00:09.760]  So, hi everyone.
[00:09.900 --> 00:10.400]  Thanks for coming.
[00:11.160 --> 00:24.860]  My name is Andrew Zahn and this is a panel discussion about how hackers are becoming artists and how artists are becoming hackers and vice versa.
[00:26.040 --> 00:27.860]  So, I'd like to introduce my panel.
[00:28.040 --> 00:36.280]  This is Katherine Bennett, Chris Thompson, and William Cromar.
[00:36.660 --> 00:39.580]  And I'm going to have them introduce themselves.
[00:40.040 --> 00:54.840]  And if you could just briefly tell us, or not so briefly, tell us about what you make in your art, what you hack in your art, and who you are, where you're from.
[00:54.860 --> 00:56.420]  Tell us about yourself.
[01:01.810 --> 01:03.250]  Hi, my name is Catherine.
[01:03.830 --> 01:06.850]  I come from an actual artist background.
[01:07.170 --> 01:09.250]  I started out in sculpture.
[01:09.790 --> 01:15.470]  And I came to technology because I was working with lights and I wanted to do more things with lights.
[01:15.470 --> 01:24.030]  So, it's a really gradual pull, even though my father and my brothers are all engineers and they all had computers going all the time.
[01:24.270 --> 01:30.130]  And around the Thanksgiving table, we always talked about like Internet and all kinds of technological things.
[01:30.270 --> 01:32.350]  And my mother and I really hated that.
[01:33.890 --> 01:45.150]  But as time wore on in my practice and I started wanting to do things more with lights, I got into timing and sensors and then wanting to control them on my own instead of having to work with engineers.
[01:45.150 --> 01:47.310]  So, I really wanted independence with that.
[01:47.310 --> 01:55.590]  So, I kind of hacked into it that way, if you could say, rather than like coming from like a straight technological like background.
[01:55.930 --> 02:04.550]  But now I do all kinds of things, like I'm working with Asterisk and, you know, working with like websites and PHP and all kinds of fun things.
[02:07.870 --> 02:09.330]  Hello, Chris Thompson.
[02:11.050 --> 02:14.690]  I got a degree in design arts from Lehigh University.
[02:15.330 --> 02:23.330]  And there I took a class called image and process as art, which kind of got me into the art making I do today.
[02:24.310 --> 02:31.710]  I ruined digital images with pixelation, corruption and just a, you know, f*ck around in Photoshop.
[02:31.710 --> 02:39.850]  And more recently, I've been doing 3D printing and trying to 3D print some interesting things.
[02:40.310 --> 02:41.850]  No success on that yet.
[02:44.630 --> 02:44.950]  Yeah.
[02:47.710 --> 02:49.530]  Oh, I'm from Philadelphia.
[02:50.450 --> 02:54.650]  And I'm a board member at Hive 76, hackerspace there.
[02:55.830 --> 03:01.230]  And for money, I designed a clock that has math on the dial.
[03:01.230 --> 03:04.610]  And I sell that semi-successfully.
[03:05.490 --> 03:07.530]  So that's my bread and butter.
[03:08.910 --> 03:09.810]  Is that long enough?
[03:09.950 --> 03:11.270]  I'm very short talking.
[03:12.110 --> 03:12.510]  Okay.
[03:13.230 --> 03:13.930]  Here you go, Bill.
[03:14.130 --> 03:14.330]  Hey.
[03:14.810 --> 03:16.430]  Andrew said, don't be short.
[03:16.590 --> 03:18.370]  And he has no idea what he's in for now.
[03:19.730 --> 03:20.910]  So I'm Bill Cromar.
[03:21.090 --> 03:23.210]  I'm going to represent two things here today.
[03:23.210 --> 03:36.710]  One is I am running a new media program, a new new media program at Penn State Abington, which is a small, non-university park-based part of Penn State.
[03:36.710 --> 03:40.410]  So we're not really involved much with the scandal.
[03:41.530 --> 03:44.850]  But I'm also part of what's called a group called Tangent.
[03:45.130 --> 03:48.850]  And Tangent is really a little bit like a band.
[03:49.110 --> 03:50.310]  We've got a sculptor.
[03:50.490 --> 03:51.270]  We've got me.
[03:51.270 --> 03:52.770]  I do a lot of video work.
[03:53.510 --> 03:55.630]  But I also have a sculpture background.
[03:55.870 --> 04:01.030]  I don't know what it is about sculptors becoming these sort of technology people, but it seems to be in the air.
[04:02.450 --> 04:04.530]  But we have a photographer, a musician.
[04:04.950 --> 04:07.570]  And, you know, nobody steps on each other's toes.
[04:07.890 --> 04:11.270]  Everybody kind of does what they do.
[04:11.270 --> 04:15.670]  But we do it kind of as a non-hierarchic team.
[04:16.650 --> 04:22.930]  A chunk of my work was in the art space that was downstairs up by the escalators.
[04:23.130 --> 04:24.770]  And Andrew's got something in there, too.
[04:24.890 --> 04:25.730]  And I don't know...
[04:25.730 --> 04:26.770]  Do you guys have anything in there?
[04:27.070 --> 04:27.710]  Not this time.
[04:27.770 --> 04:28.050]  No.
[04:28.230 --> 04:28.470]  Okay.
[04:28.530 --> 04:28.990]  You should.
[04:28.990 --> 04:30.350]  It was awesome.
[04:32.150 --> 04:35.670]  But that's kind of what I do.
[04:35.910 --> 04:36.930]  I don't know if that's enough.
[04:38.350 --> 04:39.230]  Better be.
[04:41.150 --> 04:42.070]  Hi, I'm Andrew Zahn.
[04:42.470 --> 04:44.090]  I'm narrating this panel.
[04:44.470 --> 04:49.170]  And I would say I'm an artist, multimedia artist.
[04:49.510 --> 04:55.350]  And last year I organized a juried exhibition for hackerspaces in Philadelphia.
[04:55.350 --> 04:56.870]  It was called Hack Philly.
[04:56.870 --> 04:59.990]  And that's kind of how this panel came to be.
[05:00.110 --> 05:03.770]  This is the second iteration of the panel with new panelists.
[05:04.150 --> 05:07.070]  And they're much more fancy, I would say.
[05:07.930 --> 05:09.850]  Not that there was anything wrong with the other panel.
[05:12.250 --> 05:13.550]  You made the cut.
[05:17.350 --> 05:38.830]  I want to talk a little bit about who are some of your influences in art and technology and how did you kind of get to this point, whether they're conventional or unconventional influences.
[05:42.700 --> 05:43.380]  Catherine.
[05:44.520 --> 05:45.700]  I'm still thinking.
[05:46.100 --> 05:46.860]  You're still thinking.
[05:48.080 --> 05:48.620]  All right.
[05:48.800 --> 05:49.580]  I think I have something.
[05:51.500 --> 05:52.180]  Influences.
[05:53.980 --> 05:56.760]  I'm doing stuff that I haven't seen before.
[05:57.080 --> 06:01.160]  I've seen some glitch art in the past and some contemporaries.
[06:01.640 --> 06:07.270]  But the stuff that really got me interested in the sort of glitchy aesthetic is mistakes.
[06:07.270 --> 06:14.490]  So my influence is when the cable goes out for a second and the compression gets lost or keyframes are missing.
[06:16.050 --> 06:21.650]  I'm trying to think of older pieces that I...
[06:23.230 --> 06:24.090]  I'm blanking.
[06:24.870 --> 06:26.010]  I'll come back to that.
[06:26.370 --> 06:27.170]  Do you have anything, Catherine?
[06:28.090 --> 06:30.430]  I mean, some of the only things...
[06:30.430 --> 06:37.650]  I mean, because I started out from this really in sculpture and I really had no idea what you could do with technology at that point.
[06:37.790 --> 06:38.470]  And this is...
[06:38.470 --> 06:41.870]  I mean, I'm talking, you know, like 10, 15 years ago.
[06:42.090 --> 06:46.470]  So like looking at work like Cornelia Parker, you know, and she was exploding the shed.
[06:46.470 --> 06:48.090]  And just using...
[06:49.370 --> 06:52.550]  Using technology within our work in a very simple sense.
[06:52.550 --> 06:57.630]  To me that that really started to suggest like more ideas for myself personally.
[07:01.390 --> 07:07.210]  I suppose as far as influences might be concerned, I think Tangent takes a lot of...
[07:07.210 --> 07:10.970]  A lot of pages out of the playbook of Tony Wersler.
[07:11.210 --> 07:18.770]  If you're familiar with his work, what he kind of does is he'll develop some sort of sculptural object and project onto that.
[07:19.010 --> 07:23.030]  So it's not just a kind of flat on the wall environment.
[07:23.030 --> 07:29.490]  He'll use a mask to kind of defeat the rectangular box of the projection.
[07:29.490 --> 07:35.190]  And he'll use multiple projectors coming from various sources.
[07:35.190 --> 07:36.150]  He'll add sound.
[07:36.710 --> 07:39.370]  So it's a really multimedia kind of experience.
[07:39.370 --> 07:47.250]  I think we certainly acknowledge Tony's work coming before ours.
[07:47.450 --> 07:59.610]  I think the difference with us is that we're really interested in this idea of taking stuff that's kind of out of the public environment of places like YouTube or Vimeo.
[08:00.530 --> 08:02.750]  And readapting it or changing it.
[08:02.930 --> 08:05.550]  You know, kind of mashing it up and transforming it.
[08:05.550 --> 08:09.170]  So I think we're kind of transformative artists in that sense.
[08:09.350 --> 08:10.770]  That's not something that Tony does.
[08:13.330 --> 08:14.330]  Okay, thank you.
[08:15.350 --> 08:19.630]  So I wanted to talk about today.
[08:19.950 --> 08:24.450]  And what are you all using currently today?
[08:24.570 --> 08:28.830]  What interests you today in technology and art?
[08:32.430 --> 08:42.170]  What do you see as the cutting edge that the trends or what are you currently using that is new?
[08:43.670 --> 08:44.130]  Catherine?
[08:47.390 --> 08:49.130]  You didn't brief us on these questions.
[08:49.310 --> 08:50.510]  I don't have any answers for you.
[08:51.730 --> 08:53.790]  Yeah, we're really going off this year.
[08:54.250 --> 08:57.370]  One of the things for me, because I work with...
[08:57.370 --> 09:00.630]  For the most part, I work with physical computing and lights and electronics.
[09:00.630 --> 09:02.970]  And I love working with circuits.
[09:02.970 --> 09:06.630]  And I love getting down in there and working with my hands, obviously, as a sculptor.
[09:07.110 --> 09:19.650]  But some of the stuff, some of the ideas that I have, what I'm fascinated by some of the most with technology, is how they can be ratified so quickly with, like, computer vision.
[09:19.650 --> 09:22.730]  So that's something that really fascinates me.
[09:25.630 --> 09:42.930]  Looking at kimchi and chips, some of the work that they've done with computer vision and how they can kind of just cast light on an object, say like a plant leaves, and be able to cancel everything else out and just cause little projections on that, is so fascinating for me.
[09:42.930 --> 09:48.310]  Because if I was to do that with actually hardware and electronics, that would take a really long time.
[09:48.310 --> 09:54.110]  And if any of you have ever worked with hardware, you know, the more things you add into it, the more complex it gets.
[09:54.290 --> 09:56.450]  You know, obviously, like, as your network grows.
[09:56.630 --> 10:08.890]  But when you're working with a computer program, not that it isn't complex, not that you don't have things that happen, but somehow the ability to control and change things is radically different than if you're working with hardware.
[10:08.890 --> 10:25.610]  So when I see what's coming along with the Kinect and how that's, you know, just how the Kinect was released, you know, how that was made, what, like, last summer, how quickly that happened, you know, in the open source community, how much it's come by in this year,
[10:25.770 --> 10:32.170]  you know, how Carnegie Mellon had their art and code and that was all about computer vision is extremely exciting.
[10:36.420 --> 10:39.740]  I'm really excited about open source 3D printing.
[10:40.020 --> 10:44.280]  I'm looking for ways to make interesting pieces.
[10:44.940 --> 10:50.260]  I guess I have to become a sculptor to do some good 3D objects.
[10:51.080 --> 10:51.640]  Yeah.
[10:52.440 --> 10:57.060]  I've been using OpenSCAD to make stuff, but it's boring practical stuff.
[10:57.360 --> 10:59.960]  And I'm stepping into learning.
[11:00.220 --> 11:05.220]  I want to make something that looks interesting and entirely impractical.
[11:05.700 --> 11:07.980]  And I probably need to learn Blender, too.
[11:09.580 --> 11:11.440]  Is that in a physical sense?
[11:11.840 --> 11:13.760]  When you say when it looks interesting.
[11:13.880 --> 11:14.540]  Looks interesting.
[11:14.980 --> 11:16.260]  I mean, just...
[11:16.920 --> 11:19.180]  Like I said, in a tactile...
[11:19.800 --> 11:24.360]  I'm just asking, you know, because for me, I'm always interested in the physical.
[11:24.580 --> 11:26.000]  And some people are very virtual.
[11:26.300 --> 11:31.520]  And so when you say it looks interesting, is that something that needs to be tactile?
[11:31.660 --> 11:33.220]  Is that what interests you?
[11:33.320 --> 11:35.520]  Or is it actually... is it something else?
[11:43.030 --> 11:48.950]  The stuff I make is... the 3D stuff, it's not useful.
[11:48.950 --> 11:52.170]  I want... I want to make something that's not useful.
[11:54.530 --> 11:55.090]  So...
[11:55.090 --> 11:56.430]  And you can pick up these objects.
[11:56.590 --> 11:58.410]  You can... you can mess them up.
[11:58.530 --> 12:01.190]  And they're... they're... they're interesting when they break as well.
[12:03.450 --> 12:05.310]  I'm not following you 100%.
[12:09.150 --> 12:13.430]  So it sounds like you're asking between the... the purpose and the object.
[12:13.430 --> 12:14.090]  Right?
[12:14.270 --> 12:16.350]  Because sometimes, you know, you can make something.
[12:16.570 --> 12:19.110]  And it's... it's something that you can see.
[12:19.630 --> 12:22.210]  Versus something that you can actually touch and interact with.
[12:22.330 --> 12:23.390]  Perhaps surround the body.
[12:23.650 --> 12:29.570]  Like I'm... I'm very interested in like... like installations that you can surround your body in.
[12:29.710 --> 12:31.510]  And actually surround your body with objects.
[12:31.670 --> 12:34.970]  So you can like actually turn around and look behind you and there's something behind you.
[12:34.970 --> 12:40.990]  You can't exactly do that with a projection and it just gets mismatched and stuff like that.
[12:41.310 --> 12:50.630]  Or is it with creating an object, you know, say if you create like a fork, a fork is something that has a dedicated purpose and something that you can use.
[12:50.770 --> 12:55.110]  Like, is that sort of like tactility that you're after or is it...
[12:56.430 --> 13:01.190]  I think it's more on the tactility side because I can only print stuff this big.
[13:01.190 --> 13:07.010]  So it needs to be an interesting object that, you know, you can pick up and throw around.
[13:07.230 --> 13:13.830]  I have ideas for larger immersive pieces, but I don't know where that's going to go.
[13:14.070 --> 13:22.410]  I have one idea for a wall of clocks that tick in a cycle every second.
[13:22.410 --> 13:26.730]  So the one in front of you ticks and the next one and then all these tick around.
[13:26.730 --> 13:32.390]  And you just have this cacophony of sound, but that's not really 3D printed though.
[13:32.650 --> 13:33.070]  It's interesting.
[13:35.830 --> 13:37.890]  Well, you can't have everything, you know.
[13:38.750 --> 13:39.850]  What is new today?
[13:40.070 --> 13:40.530]  What is the...
[13:40.530 --> 14:04.690]  Well, one of the things that we started playing with a couple of years ago was, you know, sort of scanning technologies, things like not scanning as in, you know, 3D, you know, scanning for 3D printing, but things like your, you know, now I'm having one of those middle age moments.
[14:05.390 --> 14:05.830]  The...
[14:05.830 --> 14:06.390]  The scanner?
[14:06.610 --> 14:09.630]  No, no, the little, the little square things.
[14:10.930 --> 14:12.190]  You know what I'm talking about.
[14:12.890 --> 14:13.070]  No?
[14:13.510 --> 14:14.030]  No, no.
[14:14.110 --> 14:14.530]  QR code.
[14:14.530 --> 14:15.310]  QR code.
[14:15.490 --> 14:16.930]  Thank you, whoever said that.
[14:17.670 --> 14:20.850]  Yeah, so we started playing around with QR codes a couple of years ago.
[14:21.650 --> 14:33.970]  And the last thing that Tangent did, we were using a scannable image that has a watermark embedded in it.
[14:34.030 --> 14:49.730]  And what we were doing is we were linking pieces of the narrative of our installation to websites and videos that could actually start to be things that people could take away.
[14:49.730 --> 14:55.910]  They could start, they could continue to live with the installation even after they left the dedicated art space.
[14:58.050 --> 15:05.310]  This is kind of a continuation of what Tangent's always done, which is to kind of provide some kind of takeaway or some kind of giveaway.
[15:07.310 --> 15:17.290]  We've done everything from, you know, fill condoms with seed corn to, you know, making fake maps of Philadelphia and trying to screw people up.
[15:18.330 --> 15:30.130]  But these, these QR codes and these, and most interestingly, I think these watermarked images become a way for people to take something away.
[15:30.390 --> 15:31.930]  Not physical, but virtual.
[15:32.150 --> 15:32.930]  So we get both.
[15:34.850 --> 15:35.790]  Thank you.
[15:39.040 --> 15:39.920]  Let's see.
[15:40.120 --> 15:41.360]  I'm going to make this question up.
[15:41.520 --> 15:41.660]  Okay.
[15:42.160 --> 15:53.680]  So tell me, all three of you actually, which, how do you, how do you label yourself?
[15:53.980 --> 16:00.220]  How do you, do you label yourself as an artist, as a hacker, as a human?
[16:01.000 --> 16:01.640]  Doesn't matter.
[16:02.860 --> 16:17.120]  Have you come into any problems when you are in a situation, you say, I'm a hacker, or you say, I'm an artist, or you say, I'm an artist that uses technology, and then an artist will say to you, well, then you're not an artist.
[16:17.120 --> 16:26.400]  Or something like this, where the, you go against the grain in your field, so to speak.
[16:30.770 --> 16:33.110]  I guess I'm always first here.
[16:33.250 --> 16:33.790]  I don't know what.
[16:34.910 --> 16:50.170]  I always have a lot of problem with this, you know, because I started out in sculpture, and so when I was using, you know, I'd say I'm a sculptor that uses technology, and this is before I really, I was abroad for a while, and relatively under a rock,
[16:50.210 --> 16:54.370]  I guess you could say, you know, and I had no idea what people were doing with interactivity.
[16:54.850 --> 17:03.390]  So when I talk about, like, interaction, and design, and, you know, when I try to talk to other people, it really becomes a challenge.
[17:03.670 --> 17:05.750]  To me, it really depends on the audience.
[17:06.090 --> 17:14.010]  You know, if I'm talking to a hacker, you know, say someone here, it's very different than if I'm at another technology conference.
[17:14.130 --> 17:17.310]  It's very different if I'm at an art opening.
[17:17.630 --> 17:20.230]  You know, it's very different if I'm talking to a grandmother.
[17:20.630 --> 17:27.590]  You know, it really depends how I classify myself, because it's, to me, it's more about communicating with that individual.
[17:28.650 --> 17:33.510]  So, it's... I don't feel like I have, like, a steady label, unfortunately.
[17:33.510 --> 17:40.730]  And maybe that's a great thing in having it be something that's relatively fresh and something that's relatively evolving.
[17:41.130 --> 17:54.610]  I don't think I would ever really consider myself a hacker, but the more I think about it, you know, over the last few months, and the more I think about, like, my approach to technology than some other individual's approach to technology and being here,
[17:54.710 --> 17:55.890]  it is quite different.
[17:55.890 --> 18:00.010]  You know, because I look at technology as a means to an end.
[18:00.230 --> 18:04.170]  You know, I think it's a beautiful thing when you can achieve certain things in technology.
[18:04.590 --> 18:09.770]  And sometimes, you know, you kind of go along and you're on these paths and, you know, you have a goal.
[18:09.950 --> 18:13.450]  And then, you know, along the way, you realize these other things that can happen.
[18:13.730 --> 18:18.230]  You realize the other possibilities of that medium or of that language that you're within.
[18:18.450 --> 18:22.850]  But that doesn't necessarily mean that I'll be married to that language for forever.
[18:22.850 --> 18:26.970]  Or I'll be married to that particular medium for forever.
[18:27.230 --> 18:29.590]  You know, because I'm after a different...
[18:29.590 --> 18:34.110]  I have a different thing that drives me than some other people may.
[18:34.370 --> 18:43.790]  So, as a result of that, I think how I label myself tends to evolve a bit as a result of who I'm talking to in order to satisfy that.
[18:43.950 --> 18:45.450]  I'm not sure how you guys feel.
[18:46.890 --> 18:52.450]  Well, I introduce myself as a product designer usually because people are like, oh, what do you do?
[18:52.550 --> 18:54.870]  And they're like, ah, I make money doing this.
[18:55.070 --> 19:01.630]  But I usually, on my card it says digital artist, which is like a little qualifier.
[19:03.830 --> 19:11.750]  And when I say I work at a hackerspace and I use the word hacker, a whole lot of people outside of this room, they're like, what?
[19:12.270 --> 19:14.530]  So you're breaking the phone lines or something?
[19:15.030 --> 19:24.130]  And I have to get people to realize that the word hack is old and I'm doing something with technology that wasn't intended.
[19:24.130 --> 19:27.310]  So I'm hacking it and they're like, oh, you get it.
[19:30.690 --> 19:33.210]  So I'm a digital artist, product designer, hacker.
[19:35.510 --> 19:36.790]  This is a good question.
[19:38.350 --> 19:39.950]  I'm kind of thinking about it.
[19:41.090 --> 19:56.250]  I'm thinking, well, a text that we use in new media to kind of gear the people up for what they're about to enter is Paul Graham's Hackers and Painters.
[19:56.610 --> 20:01.430]  This was an article that he wrote about, or like an essay that he wrote about 10 years ago.
[20:01.570 --> 20:02.630]  Is anybody familiar with it?
[20:04.050 --> 20:07.550]  You can find it pretty easy on Paul Graham's website.
[20:08.550 --> 20:11.670]  And what he does is kind of interesting in there.
[20:11.770 --> 20:19.450]  He kind of talks about, in even slightly more than metaphorical ways, how hackers are like painters and how painters are like hackers.
[20:19.450 --> 20:20.890]  And he has a pretty good sense.
[20:21.070 --> 20:24.150]  He comes at it from a kind of computing perspective.
[20:24.730 --> 20:28.970]  He has a pretty good sense of what makes a painter a painter and how they relate.
[20:29.250 --> 20:39.170]  And one of the things that he does in there, and I think this is maybe 2003, so it's maybe the first time that this kind of rhetoric is coming out.
[20:39.230 --> 20:41.310]  He calls them all makers.
[20:42.090 --> 20:45.430]  And so now, when I was talking to our...
[20:45.430 --> 20:53.010]  I was talking to Andrew earlier about plants that we're making for a hackerspace at Penn State Abington, because we just bought a new...
[20:53.010 --> 20:54.590]  A new...
[20:54.590 --> 20:55.330]  It's an old...
[20:56.090 --> 20:57.910]  Actually for us, but a new...
[20:57.910 --> 20:59.710]  It's an old...
[21:00.250 --> 21:00.770]  Gas...
[21:00.770 --> 21:01.710]  Not a gas station.
[21:01.830 --> 21:03.090]  It's a car dealership.
[21:03.170 --> 21:06.670]  So it's got this gigantic garage and it's perfect for making a hackerspace.
[21:08.290 --> 21:11.250]  And Chancellor's walking around in there with us and we're looking at it.
[21:11.310 --> 21:12.850]  What a great place for a hackerspace.
[21:12.990 --> 21:14.710]  And she looked at me like I had three heads.
[21:15.930 --> 21:17.690]  So yeah, that's...
[21:17.690 --> 21:19.530]  It's this loaded language that's...
[21:19.530 --> 21:22.410]  This activity that's largely misunderstood, right?
[21:22.530 --> 21:24.430]  So I said, well, I meant to say a makerspace.
[21:24.630 --> 21:25.090]  So now I...
[21:25.090 --> 21:29.330]  But Paul Graham calls himself a maker in that sense.
[21:29.410 --> 21:30.710]  And he calls painters makers.
[21:30.710 --> 21:32.510]  So I'm gonna call myself a maker.
[21:34.050 --> 21:34.570]  Great.
[21:34.750 --> 21:35.030]  Thank you.
[21:37.570 --> 21:39.210]  So what about collaboration?
[21:41.850 --> 21:43.410]  Who have you collaborated with?
[21:43.650 --> 21:45.130]  Do you enjoy collaborating?
[21:46.510 --> 21:47.030]  Who...
[21:48.370 --> 21:49.770]  Do you hate collaborating?
[21:49.950 --> 21:51.090]  Do you like working on your own?
[21:53.690 --> 21:58.250]  What comes out of collaboration within the context of...
[21:58.250 --> 22:00.230]  of art and technology?
[22:04.400 --> 22:05.540]  I'm gonna go first.
[22:05.800 --> 22:06.360]  Okay, great.
[22:07.880 --> 22:10.700]  I don't collaborate on my art because everyone else is stupid.
[22:11.020 --> 22:14.360]  And I can't do art with someone else.
[22:14.740 --> 22:21.780]  I'm trying to think of good projects outside my digital art that have included someone else.
[22:22.800 --> 22:25.900]  There's a lot of collaborative projects that happen at Hive 76.
[22:27.360 --> 22:29.220]  They're not nearly related to art.
[22:29.420 --> 22:30.760]  We did a nice thing at PAFA.
[22:31.000 --> 22:32.400]  I wasn't included in.
[22:33.380 --> 22:33.940]  And...
[22:35.980 --> 22:37.120]  No, no, it's fine.
[22:37.280 --> 22:38.580]  I discluded myself.
[22:40.020 --> 22:40.580]  The...
[22:40.580 --> 22:47.380]  A lot of the boring work at Hive is collaborative and then people do individual projects.
[22:47.380 --> 22:51.440]  Like, we'll make a 3D printer and then someone's like, I'm gonna go print something.
[22:52.080 --> 22:54.480]  The USB typewriter was...
[22:54.480 --> 22:55.660]  It's like one guy's project.
[22:55.840 --> 22:57.080]  But everyone else sort of helped out.
[23:00.240 --> 23:03.440]  I wonder what a collaborative art project at Hive would look like.
[23:04.440 --> 23:05.540]  If it'd be any good.
[23:05.780 --> 23:07.640]  Because art is usually the auteur.
[23:07.880 --> 23:09.720]  You know, I'm working by myself.
[23:09.720 --> 23:13.280]  And I have not made any collaborative art ever.
[23:14.000 --> 23:14.560]  So...
[23:14.560 --> 23:16.280]  I'll put that on the to-do list.
[23:16.900 --> 23:17.100]  Anyone?
[23:20.040 --> 23:21.680]  I would just...
[23:21.680 --> 23:22.760]  You know, I'll be honest.
[23:23.000 --> 23:26.960]  I've never really worked on a collaborative project within my practice.
[23:27.200 --> 23:31.260]  And I think that's a result of how I work and how I envision things.
[23:31.260 --> 23:35.140]  I mean, usually I have a vision of how things should work.
[23:35.260 --> 23:44.100]  And then I try to find different technology or different means that are gonna ratify that idea as close to how I see that coming to be.
[23:44.820 --> 23:46.720]  And I think that's different.
[23:46.720 --> 23:57.800]  I mean, to me, like, a perfect marriage and a collaboration is really about the chemistry between the individuals and, like, what you share for ideals and the message that you're gonna carry.
[23:58.000 --> 24:00.340]  And that's not married to a practice.
[24:00.340 --> 24:02.040]  That's not married to a language.
[24:02.360 --> 24:03.940]  That's married to something higher.
[24:03.960 --> 24:10.740]  And that's the message of what you're trying to relate to an audience and what you're trying to achieve.
[24:10.740 --> 24:13.160]  It's not a product of the medium.
[24:13.160 --> 24:19.280]  And I think whenever you're married to a particular medium, you know, you're limited to some sense.
[24:19.460 --> 24:25.240]  I mean, that's why in some, you know, some schools of programming, they're agnostic.
[24:25.240 --> 24:27.240]  And I think that's a good way to be.
[24:27.460 --> 24:39.400]  So I think once you find people that share your higher ideals, it's easy to form, like, a collaboration, especially if you have similar work chemistries or chemistries that can balance you out.
[24:39.500 --> 24:42.300]  And I'll be honest, you know, I'm still looking for that.
[24:42.300 --> 24:52.360]  But one thing that excites me in collaboration, especially as being an artist and being someone that, you know, works in technology, there's so much happening within it.
[24:52.460 --> 24:54.240]  And so much that happens so quickly.
[24:54.520 --> 24:59.780]  Like, I don't know about you fellas, but it's impossible for me to stay on top of it.
[24:59.780 --> 25:06.760]  And so being in a part of a group, you know, and being in a part of, like, a hackerspace, that's something that excites me.
[25:06.880 --> 25:19.740]  You know, because if I can at least work alongside somebody else that's doing some other project that I have no idea what it is, if I can just, you know, talk about water cooler talk, you know, if I can be enlightened in what they're doing in their practice,
[25:20.060 --> 25:23.420]  you know, that's food for thought for me to, like, mull on in the background.
[25:23.420 --> 25:29.220]  And to me, I find that productive and maybe that's the seeds to collaboration in the future.
[25:30.060 --> 25:39.640]  But, I mean, technology is so dense and it's evolving so quickly that it's impossible to be singular in that sense.
[25:39.640 --> 25:47.200]  So, I mean, I think that that's one of the real powers in, like, the hackerspace, like Hive and the Hacktory in Philadelphia, which is where I teach.
[25:50.450 --> 25:52.170]  Sorry, I remembered a thing.
[25:52.310 --> 25:52.750]  Can I interrupt?
[25:52.950 --> 25:53.090]  Please.
[25:53.750 --> 25:58.390]  The last collaborative project I did, I did with my girlfriend, I wanted to learn book design.
[25:58.710 --> 26:04.810]  And so I did the book design for Edgar Allan Poe book, The Narrative of Arthur Gordon Pym.
[26:04.810 --> 26:11.050]  And she did, she's a book artist, so she did, like, the construction and the cover.
[26:11.250 --> 26:13.990]  And it never got finished and we fought about it.
[26:14.150 --> 26:16.590]  And I didn't really want to do anything like that anymore.
[26:18.370 --> 26:20.270]  But there's another book project.
[26:20.310 --> 26:23.610]  I want to make an exploding book of secrets.
[26:23.750 --> 26:31.130]  So you can take cotton and soak it in some acid, I forget, and it turns into gun cotton, which is explosive.
[26:31.130 --> 26:36.770]  So I want to make a book out of, like, nice cotton paper, and everyone's going to write their secrets in it in pencil.
[26:36.930 --> 26:41.130]  And then we're going to turn it into an explosive and set off a book of secrets.
[26:41.330 --> 26:42.090]  It could be a performance.
[26:42.350 --> 26:42.630]  Yeah.
[26:42.950 --> 26:44.930]  So I need a performance.
[26:45.310 --> 26:46.730]  I need a chemist.
[26:46.910 --> 26:51.690]  I need a vat of acid if anyone wants to collaborate on exploding book of secrets.
[26:52.210 --> 26:53.110]  Oh, all right.
[26:54.390 --> 26:55.050]  Moving on.
[26:55.210 --> 26:56.270]  I'll go there with you.
[26:56.390 --> 26:56.590]  Sweet.
[26:57.830 --> 26:58.250]  Great.
[26:58.390 --> 27:01.410]  Well, I'm here representing Tangent Art Collaborative.
[27:01.630 --> 27:10.270]  So a lot of what I do, I'd say probably 60% of what I do now as an artist is collaboration.
[27:10.970 --> 27:13.390]  The last thing I thought I'd ever do as an artist.
[27:13.610 --> 27:14.890]  But here's the weird part.
[27:16.430 --> 27:19.430]  We have three people who are primarily part of that.
[27:19.430 --> 27:26.070]  And we bring a lot of other people in, performance people, musicians, whatever we happen to kind of need.
[27:26.290 --> 27:34.730]  So there's kind of a core group, kind of non-hierarchic group, that composes Tangent.
[27:35.130 --> 27:40.730]  Here's the strange part about Tangent is that we're all visual artists, but we've all been in a band before.
[27:40.730 --> 27:44.970]  So we kind of joke and we say, well, Tangent's like, you know, Tangent's the band.
[27:45.190 --> 27:46.510]  We call it the band sometimes.
[27:47.230 --> 27:59.270]  And it seems to me like musicians and band people, and anybody who's been in a band kind of knows what I'm talking about, really kind of intuitively get a grasp of what you do when you collaborate.
[27:59.510 --> 28:04.730]  One thing you do is you don't, you know, like the drummer doesn't tell the guitar player how to play the guitar.
[28:04.730 --> 28:09.070]  You know, you just have an affinity for how your sound and how it, how it congeals.
[28:09.570 --> 28:17.570]  And I think that's something that makes for good collaboration is kind of understanding where people's skill sets are.
[28:17.710 --> 28:20.910]  So if everybody's a sculptor, that's probably a bad recipe.
[28:21.130 --> 28:27.490]  But if everybody's got a little skill set that they can contribute to a whole, that's probably a better, that's probably a better mix.
[28:27.690 --> 28:31.610]  I could keep going, but I'm gonna, I'm gonna stop there.
[28:33.690 --> 28:34.670]  Okay, thank you.
[28:36.410 --> 28:37.290]  I guess...
[28:37.290 --> 28:37.850]  See what happens.
[28:38.070 --> 28:39.050]  You wanna say something?
[28:39.070 --> 28:39.870]  Memory is nonlinear.
[28:40.250 --> 28:40.370]  Okay.
[28:40.370 --> 28:40.990]  I have another thing.
[28:41.450 --> 28:41.890]  Go.
[28:41.970 --> 28:45.010]  This is Chris Thompson again from Hive 76 in Philadelphia.
[28:46.650 --> 28:47.910]  Wait, I just forgot what I was gonna say.
[28:48.130 --> 28:53.450]  No, I remembered the last successful collaborative project I did was in college.
[28:54.350 --> 29:00.970]  And it was successful because I found, we were like hanging out with this guy, whose name I forgot, of course.
[29:01.870 --> 29:08.810]  We had this giant roll of Mylar and we rolled it down the main walkway outside school and taped it down.
[29:08.930 --> 29:11.530]  So you're like walking on a flexible mirror.
[29:12.070 --> 29:14.310]  And then later we made a giant maze out of it.
[29:14.430 --> 29:19.230]  And that just worked because I guess it was like the perfect, you know, duo.
[29:19.230 --> 29:20.810]  We were like, oh, let's do this.
[29:20.910 --> 29:21.210]  Of course.
[29:21.550 --> 29:21.830]  It's done.
[29:22.050 --> 29:22.490]  Here we go.
[29:22.710 --> 29:25.130]  Let's get some poles from the strap yard and make a maze.
[29:27.590 --> 29:28.970]  Man, that was really fun.
[29:29.190 --> 29:31.770]  I should probably replicate something awesome like that.
[29:32.070 --> 29:32.370]  Danny.
[29:32.530 --> 29:33.190]  Danny Wendlick.
[29:34.010 --> 29:34.130]  Yeah.
[29:34.930 --> 29:35.550]  That's the guy.
[29:35.850 --> 29:36.110]  All right.
[29:36.210 --> 29:36.490]  I'm done.
[29:39.930 --> 29:40.210]  Okay.
[29:40.270 --> 29:40.790]  Thank you, Chris.
[29:43.990 --> 29:47.930]  So, one last question before we open up to audience questions.
[29:51.010 --> 30:00.850]  So, what does the future look like for hacker artists, artists, hackers, hackers and artists,
[30:07.790 --> 30:15.670]  not necessarily for yourself, but I mean in, you know, possibly for yourself, but yeah.
[30:17.390 --> 30:18.310]  Does that make sense?
[30:19.650 --> 30:20.130]  Sure.
[30:20.530 --> 30:22.230]  You're looking at me and I'll take it.
[30:23.170 --> 30:23.950]  It's all you.
[30:24.770 --> 30:26.070]  Unless one of you guys is thinking.
[30:26.790 --> 30:27.610]  I teach.
[30:27.610 --> 30:29.090]  I teach at University of the Arts.
[30:29.090 --> 30:32.690]  And one thing that I really believe is empowering individuals.
[30:32.710 --> 30:39.090]  What I always tell my students is that, you know, I'm not just going to tell you what it takes to get something going.
[30:39.090 --> 30:43.490]  I want to teach you one level, at least, if not more, below the user.
[30:43.630 --> 30:48.670]  So that when something mucks up or something goes wrong, you can actually go and fix that.
[30:48.890 --> 31:01.430]  And one thing that I'd hope in collaborations, especially with technology, one thing that I find relatively insulting is that when people hear that I work in technology and they're like, oh, can you fix my laptop?
[31:01.870 --> 31:01.990]  Yeah.
[31:02.950 --> 31:03.330]  You know?
[31:03.510 --> 31:05.350]  Oh, can I just like dump this on you?
[31:05.530 --> 31:07.630]  Or, you know, my Wi-Fi isn't working.
[31:07.830 --> 31:08.290]  I can't...
[31:08.290 --> 31:09.410]  Catherine, will you...
[31:09.410 --> 31:09.650]  You know?
[31:09.770 --> 31:11.290]  And it's really insulting.
[31:11.330 --> 31:15.670]  And I would hope to spread that knowledge and that intelligence broader.
[31:15.670 --> 31:20.350]  And that doesn't necessarily mean, you know, you're an artist that works in technology.
[31:20.470 --> 31:22.570]  You're the only one that can know about this.
[31:22.710 --> 31:22.930]  You know?
[31:23.070 --> 31:27.330]  I really believe that programming is the next frontier.
[31:27.370 --> 31:33.150]  And that if you can't program, you know, it's kind of like not knowing Spanish nowadays.
[31:33.150 --> 31:37.950]  Like, you need to know that language in order to be enabled to do something.
[31:38.250 --> 31:41.230]  And programming is so powerful.
[31:41.230 --> 31:47.310]  I tell my students, you know, if I said, you know, hey, go get me a latte, you know, I still don't have a latte.
[31:47.650 --> 31:51.230]  If I did that in a programming language, I have a latte in front of me.
[31:51.390 --> 31:51.570]  You know?
[31:51.690 --> 31:52.730]  It's very different.
[31:53.250 --> 31:58.130]  You know, programming is the only language that when you articulate it, it actually executes.
[31:59.810 --> 32:03.170]  And that's...that is so powerful that I don't think people realize.
[32:03.170 --> 32:07.370]  And I think if more people know how to program, that is the next frontier.
[32:07.370 --> 32:14.490]  And especially how things are going, whether you work with things physically or you actually work with languages, whether you do websites.
[32:14.830 --> 32:21.110]  I mean, that is the way things are going with how much we use mobile phones, mobile devices.
[32:21.470 --> 32:23.770]  I mean, everything is being fitted towards that.
[32:23.970 --> 32:30.600]  And if you don't have that in your arsenal, it's really going to be challenging.
[32:31.620 --> 32:35.160]  And we're going to just have those divides where, oh, can you fix my phone?
[32:35.240 --> 32:35.940]  And I don't know.
[32:36.080 --> 32:37.200]  It's so effed up, you know?
[32:37.380 --> 32:39.020]  And that's...that's frustrating.
[32:39.020 --> 32:40.700]  And I believe in enabling users.
[32:45.200 --> 32:46.180]  You said it really well.
[32:46.280 --> 32:49.700]  I feel like I'm at a loss because I don't know how to program well.
[32:50.820 --> 32:51.960]  I'm starting to learn JavaScript.
[32:52.180 --> 32:56.300]  I'm using this program called OpenSCAD, which is kind of like programming objects.
[32:56.300 --> 32:59.960]  And I'm starting to realize the power of that.
[33:00.180 --> 33:03.260]  And at some point, I'm going to be, you know, Grandpa.
[33:03.500 --> 33:05.200]  I'm like, can you make a script for me?
[33:05.320 --> 33:07.900]  I need to move my emails around.
[33:11.500 --> 33:15.320]  And the...in the past, you know, like, skills were locked up in academies.
[33:16.800 --> 33:19.720]  And you had to go learn something.
[33:19.860 --> 33:24.200]  And so you learned a skill, but no one really...I don't think anyone teaches inspiration.
[33:24.200 --> 33:27.240]  But now we have...everyone has some sort of inspiration.
[33:27.440 --> 33:28.240]  Like, man, I want to paint.
[33:29.040 --> 33:37.740]  I can just go learn how to paint or sculpt or do lost wax casting with some printed plastic and make some awesome bronze sculpture.
[33:38.800 --> 33:44.420]  Or...so the skill...the skill part is becoming, like, very open.
[33:44.800 --> 33:52.720]  And there's going to be a lot more art for everyone to critique and, you know, divvy up into good and bad and personal and stuff.
[33:53.500 --> 33:55.420]  But there's going to be more of it, which is good.
[33:55.600 --> 34:00.340]  So there's going to be lots of...lots of cool stuff to look at.
[34:00.980 --> 34:02.220]  Or whatever you do with art.
[34:03.480 --> 34:07.800]  I don't know if I can answer the question, but I can give you a couple of anecdotes.
[34:08.560 --> 34:09.300]  Is that all right?
[34:10.020 --> 34:10.380]  Yeah.
[34:10.820 --> 34:10.940]  Okay.
[34:10.960 --> 34:11.600]  At least one.
[34:11.780 --> 34:11.920]  Yeah.
[34:11.920 --> 34:12.260]  I'll give it.
[34:12.260 --> 34:12.700]  No, I'll give it.
[34:13.800 --> 34:23.700]  One is, at the school where my little girls go, they start these guys off with scratch.
[34:23.700 --> 34:29.000]  So they kind of learn a little code in a kind of visual metaphor way.
[34:29.500 --> 34:32.180]  I'm talking about kindergarten and first grade.
[34:32.180 --> 34:34.720]  So they're hitting it right off the bat.
[34:34.900 --> 34:36.220]  They're demystifying it.
[34:36.580 --> 34:38.620]  And I think that that's...
[34:38.620 --> 34:41.700]  If a lot of people are doing that, that's a good thing.
[34:41.820 --> 34:43.480]  I don't think a lot of people are doing that.
[34:43.600 --> 34:50.860]  But I commend MIT for making that fancy thing that I wish I would have had growing up.
[34:51.860 --> 35:14.640]  And the other thing is, I think in a lot of ways, the ideas behind 3D printing, laser cutting, all of these kinds of enabling technologies that are kind of coming out of these really expensive, you know, high end things down to, you know, maybe they're a little less higher resolution,
[35:14.640 --> 35:22.260]  but they're still kind of enabling people to get involved with making tangible things out of digital stuff.
[35:22.680 --> 35:25.020]  And I think that's going to be a real transformation.
[35:28.180 --> 35:29.740]  I actually answered your question.
[35:31.420 --> 35:33.080]  I just want to say one other thing.
[35:33.340 --> 35:40.040]  You know, when I was starting out and, like, working with microcontrollers, you know, we had to have these devices and, like, program on them.
[35:40.160 --> 35:41.860]  And they were, like, two or three hundred dollars.
[35:42.220 --> 35:43.460]  And then the Arduino came out.
[35:43.700 --> 35:45.200]  You know, and that's, like, 30 bucks.
[35:45.500 --> 35:46.580]  And there's, like, GitHub.
[35:46.900 --> 35:48.660]  And everybody's making things open source.
[35:48.660 --> 35:57.380]  And the thing that's so inspiring to me, at least in, like, the past eight years, is how fast this stuff is moving and accessible to anyone.
[35:57.580 --> 35:59.320]  Like, it's not closed off.
[35:59.460 --> 36:05.160]  It's not as closed off as it used to be when I was out there, you know, having to work with engineers.
[36:05.160 --> 36:07.460]  And to me, that's the thing that's most exciting.
[36:07.460 --> 36:19.720]  If people can make things more open sourced and to actually share things, get things on GitHub, you know, talk to other people, have things out there, and just introduce people to things, a lot can happen.
[36:25.820 --> 36:26.720]  Thank you all.
[36:27.660 --> 36:30.520]  I think we're going to open up to some audience questions.
[36:31.380 --> 36:32.480]  There's an audience?
[36:32.700 --> 36:34.200]  There is an audience here, I think.
[36:44.390 --> 36:45.970]  I will act as the mic stand.
[36:50.380 --> 37:02.300]  You all talked a lot about the inspiration, seeing the technology glitch out, and that gave you fuel to do your art.
[37:02.480 --> 37:04.160]  Do you have anything going the other way?
[37:04.380 --> 37:14.540]  Do you see the technology, the art-inspiring technology, maybe for, you know, a project you're working on, you have to figure out a certain process, how to make that happen.
[37:14.960 --> 37:18.720]  But once the technology is there, you can find other applications for it.
[37:24.020 --> 37:25.200]  Does that not make sense?
[37:26.740 --> 37:28.840]  For women, so they're at the end like a...
[37:29.440 --> 37:34.680]  Well, you mentioned technology inspiring your art, but not necessarily the other way around.
[37:34.800 --> 37:38.620]  I was wondering if you see the art-inspiring technology.
[37:43.210 --> 37:44.170]  I guess...
[37:45.510 --> 37:54.950]  I guess, for me personally, the way that I work, like, I may see, like, a lot of things happen, but that doesn't necessarily inspire me.
[37:55.050 --> 38:04.710]  It's actually really frustrating, you know, because some people, I really feel like they can sit there and they can make something and then get inspired to, like, take something further.
[38:04.990 --> 38:08.990]  And I don't know about you fellows, but I really don't work that way.
[38:09.050 --> 38:13.930]  I get an idea in my mind, and then I have to go about finding the means to, like, ratify that.
[38:14.330 --> 38:23.870]  And, like, one project that I'm working on right now, you know, is going between, like, working with Asterisk and actually working with, like, radios and, like, you know, transmitters.
[38:24.050 --> 38:29.690]  You know, something quite different means that could still achieve, like, relatively the same purpose.
[38:30.030 --> 38:36.450]  So at certain points, you know, I look for what's going to make it, what technology is going to make it easier.
[38:36.450 --> 38:43.890]  But then once I'm in there with the technology, for me that inspires other ideas because I see the possibilities within that.
[38:44.210 --> 38:51.810]  I don't think that quite answers your idea because it seems to be, like, what ideas are actually going to push the technology in hacking.
[38:52.510 --> 39:02.290]  Well, I know, personally, I've had, you know, a vision of a certain project and how it's supposed to look.
[39:02.430 --> 39:07.210]  And you have to figure out the process to make that a reality, to ratify it, as you said.
[39:07.530 --> 39:13.990]  And once you solve that problem, then you've got this leftover technology that you can use for other means.
[39:14.190 --> 39:14.830]  For other projects.
[39:15.050 --> 39:15.230]  Yeah.
[39:19.040 --> 39:27.020]  I keep finding myself on two halves, like, I'll think of cool inspirational ideas, like the clock thing.
[39:27.320 --> 39:30.300]  And then, on the other hand, I keep collecting tools.
[39:31.500 --> 39:34.240]  Like, I have an MSP430 and I know how to program it.
[39:34.780 --> 39:35.380]  Now what?
[39:35.520 --> 39:35.980]  I don't know.
[39:36.360 --> 39:38.680]  But it's like, I have these piles of tools.
[39:38.860 --> 39:43.400]  Like, oh, I can use Sugru and ShapeLock, and then I can mold some Umu and I can do this other thing.
[39:43.460 --> 39:43.920]  What am I going to do?
[39:44.000 --> 39:44.840]  I don't know what I'm going to do.
[39:44.840 --> 39:49.960]  So, I keep generating a giant tool chest in my head.
[39:50.720 --> 39:57.700]  So, hopefully, when I do come up with a great idea, I'm like, oh, I'll just bang a couple things together and I'll have a cool thing.
[39:59.460 --> 40:01.240]  So, I'm working on it.
[40:04.360 --> 40:09.740]  I'm thinking the answer is a kind of historical answer.
[40:09.740 --> 40:18.000]  I think the history of art is replete with examples of technologies that have been kind of repurposed, you know?
[40:18.160 --> 40:23.060]  Like, anything from clay for pottery to clay for figure modeling.
[40:24.820 --> 40:28.400]  Printmaking, which was just a way of kind of getting information out there.
[40:28.520 --> 40:34.500]  Maybe that was like, you know, the first iteration of information technology, right?
[40:34.500 --> 40:37.300]  suddenly becomes a way of generating images.
[40:37.860 --> 40:44.000]  So, welding really kind of an industrial construction process that suddenly becomes a way that sculptors work with metal.
[40:45.080 --> 40:56.200]  So, I think, you know, artists just kind of are hardwired to repurpose technologies that exist for other things and make their images that way.
[40:56.620 --> 41:07.960]  So, I'm not saying that what you're suggesting is an impossible scenario, but it does seem like the equation is not symmetrical.
[41:08.420 --> 41:08.680]  I don't know.
[41:08.940 --> 41:09.940]  It's in the title.
[41:10.120 --> 41:10.780]  Yeah, is it?
[41:11.040 --> 41:11.480]  Well?
[41:12.660 --> 41:13.100]  So?
[41:13.320 --> 41:13.820]  I don't know.
[41:13.980 --> 41:14.440]  I'm an idiot.
[41:15.120 --> 41:15.360]  Yeah.
[41:15.940 --> 41:16.580]  That guy.
[41:16.900 --> 41:17.880]  That guy right there.
[41:18.820 --> 41:19.780]  You made the talk.
[41:20.000 --> 41:20.580]  No, you made the talk.
[41:20.580 --> 41:21.160]  Well, no.
[41:21.280 --> 41:28.500]  I guess what it kind of means is that maybe hackers and artists are beginning to converge.
[41:29.020 --> 41:29.460]  Right?
[41:30.260 --> 41:33.060]  So, at some point, we won't have those terms.
[41:37.400 --> 41:42.580]  What are some of your early inspirations that got you into hacking and being an artist?
[41:43.840 --> 41:44.800]  Very early on.
[41:48.670 --> 41:49.590]  Oh, all right.
[41:49.810 --> 41:50.170]  All right.
[41:51.890 --> 41:54.270]  Well, I got into art a very slow way.
[41:54.390 --> 42:00.930]  I started off in engineering, and one of my first projects was designing a chair, and I didn't care about the engineering part.
[42:00.990 --> 42:04.210]  I'm like, oh, it's going to look like this, and it's going to be newspaper and epoxy.
[42:04.210 --> 42:04.870]  It'll be awesome.
[42:06.390 --> 42:15.030]  And so then I started designing stuff, and then I skipped into the design art school, and then I had to take studio art classes, and then I started getting into art.
[42:17.190 --> 42:18.490]  I just lost my train of thought.
[42:18.730 --> 42:19.810]  What was the other half of the question?
[42:24.990 --> 42:25.390]  Oh.
[42:27.790 --> 42:28.610]  Oh, no.
[42:28.990 --> 42:30.010]  I don't remember the question.
[42:30.510 --> 42:33.250]  Early on inspirations.
[42:34.050 --> 42:34.730]  Artists.
[42:36.570 --> 42:38.350]  Early inspiration.
[42:38.830 --> 42:39.190]  LEGO.
[42:40.610 --> 42:41.290]  LEGO.
[42:41.750 --> 42:43.190]  I'm just putting stuff together.
[42:43.870 --> 42:51.250]  I mean, I wasn't really a... I'm not a very good drawer, so... LEGOs are amazing.
[42:54.770 --> 43:02.350]  For me, Alan Bridge and Ben... Alan Bridge did the apology line, like, a few years, like, back in the 80s.
[43:02.470 --> 43:04.610]  That's something that, like, really influences me now.
[43:05.570 --> 43:14.970]  And Ben Rubin and another fellow whose name is completely omitting me did the listening post.
[43:15.110 --> 43:16.830]  I don't know if anybody got to see that.
[43:17.390 --> 43:19.870]  It was mesmerizing.
[43:19.870 --> 43:22.430]  Is anybody familiar with the listening post?
[43:23.790 --> 43:24.690]  Oh, my God.
[43:24.810 --> 43:26.230]  You guys all need to YouTube this.
[43:26.510 --> 43:26.690]  Okay.
[43:27.650 --> 43:29.290]  The listening post.
[43:29.530 --> 43:29.690]  Okay.
[43:31.290 --> 43:33.490]  It's a really amazing thing.
[43:33.650 --> 43:44.170]  They have all these little screens, and it scans, you know, like, blogs and whatnot and pulls in, like, the first couple lines.
[43:44.170 --> 43:47.310]  You know, if you're... Who did the I feel?
[43:47.910 --> 43:49.730]  I can see his face in my head.
[43:49.830 --> 43:51.550]  I have a visual memory, but not for names.
[43:52.490 --> 43:53.450]  I feel fine.
[43:54.990 --> 43:55.610]  We feel.
[43:55.950 --> 43:57.050]  We feel.
[43:57.930 --> 43:58.910]  Who is his name, though?
[44:01.550 --> 44:03.190]  I can totally see him in my head.
[44:03.310 --> 44:04.470]  This is... It's such a crime.
[44:04.470 --> 44:10.050]  Anyway, I'm fascinated by social relationships and how social relationships are brokered by technology.
[44:10.250 --> 44:26.930]  If we look at how blogs facilitate communication and how that gets out, you know, how Twitter uses communication, you know, the fella that did the talk earlier today about, like, social bots, that's what really, like, influences me, how technology brokers this.
[44:26.930 --> 44:34.990]  And then I look at that, and I look at that as information that I can then take to make meaning in other relationships.
[44:35.630 --> 44:39.430]  So I don't necessarily... Technology kind of works two ways.
[44:39.630 --> 44:46.750]  It's a medium to work within, and then it's another research practice, but they don't necessarily have to be the same thing.
[44:46.970 --> 44:50.950]  Like, what I'm working with doesn't have to be that in itself.
[44:50.950 --> 44:59.210]  I'm always trying to attach, like, a higher meaning, a hypothesis, a theology, so it's not just, like, it works, you know?
[44:59.370 --> 45:11.150]  Because I think, as an artist, it has to be something else, because technology is happening so quickly around us, and there's so many more brilliant engineers than I am.
[45:11.270 --> 45:17.770]  You know, I classify myself more as an artist than an engineer, and they can make it work probably a lot quicker and a lot better than I can.
[45:17.770 --> 45:26.350]  But can they attach that meaning, can they attach that idea outside of what it is to make something else?
[45:26.570 --> 45:29.030]  That, to me, is kind of what gets me going.
[45:32.150 --> 45:32.850]  All right.
[45:34.190 --> 45:38.610]  I think, for me, an early influence might have been Laurie Anderson, right?
[45:38.790 --> 46:00.910]  You know, she was this person who was able to tell a really interesting story, not only with her body, but also with these disarmingly low-tech, high-tech hybrids, like taking something like a piece of tape with her voice and sticking it on a violin, and having that mean something.
[46:02.830 --> 46:05.950]  I can think of others, but I'll just, I'll leave it there.
[46:06.990 --> 46:07.910]  Laurie Anderson.
[46:08.470 --> 46:08.830]  Yeah.
[46:13.500 --> 46:15.700]  Okay, you might have to, you might have to come here.
[46:15.700 --> 46:16.760]  This is as far as...
[46:16.760 --> 46:17.060]  Oh, okay.
[46:20.730 --> 46:23.470]  I wanted to respond to your question.
[46:25.250 --> 46:29.590]  I did the AMD project, the RFID project, the last two conferences.
[46:29.770 --> 46:29.950]  Oh, yeah.
[46:30.870 --> 46:36.350]  And I'm an artist, and it came from a problem that I wanted to solve.
[46:36.530 --> 46:45.550]  And the problem was that when you come to HOPE, it's hard to find people who have similar interests that you can discuss those interests with.
[46:45.550 --> 46:49.910]  You can come and listen to one person talk, but then there's no follow-up.
[46:50.250 --> 46:53.570]  So the problem that existed was how you connect those people.
[46:53.790 --> 47:01.430]  And we started brainstorming with things like, well, what if we did a session, and there were different colors of yarn on different tables, and, you know.
[47:01.990 --> 47:12.130]  And then somebody mentioned RFID, and we were talking about doing RFID gateways, because we couldn't find anything that was actually an active RFID.
[47:12.370 --> 47:23.710]  And so the whole thing came of creating this technology that expanded on what the CCC had done from just needing to solve a problem.
[47:23.710 --> 47:29.930]  And the problem was how do you help people find each other at HOPE, who don't know each other and don't know that they should.
[47:29.930 --> 47:34.470]  And so it came from that.
[47:34.470 --> 47:40.530]  And the CCC had created something that was an RFID tag where you could follow people around on a map.
[47:40.710 --> 47:46.970]  And we created something that was a social platform where you log into the website and enter your interest.
[47:47.190 --> 47:48.890]  And we connected those two things.
[47:49.030 --> 47:59.350]  And to me, as an artist, anything that's interesting, anything that you could actually call a relevant piece of art is something that makes a turn.
[48:00.230 --> 48:02.930]  And it's the same thing in engineering.
[48:03.870 --> 48:08.630]  It's anything that is a hack, it's a right turn.
[48:08.910 --> 48:18.530]  It goes back to the first hacker, if you want to think about mythology, is Prometheus, because you give fire to humans, and suddenly there's a right turn in the universe.
[48:18.530 --> 48:32.970]  And if you want to go to 2001 A Space Odyssey, the first tool is the monkey that says, ah, with a bone, and figures out, oh, I can hit something with something else.
[48:33.170 --> 48:34.290]  And it's a tool.
[48:34.610 --> 48:40.150]  And that's a right turn, or a left turn, or whatever hard turn you want to make.
[48:40.470 --> 48:43.430]  That's when you're creating a work.
[48:43.430 --> 48:49.330]  And that's where something becomes interesting to me as art, and as a hack.
[48:49.770 --> 48:55.710]  So, I think of art, relevant art, and hacks as being interchangeable things.
[48:57.050 --> 48:57.910]  Great, thank you.
[48:58.170 --> 48:58.550]  Thank you.
[49:00.890 --> 49:01.890]  Yeah, I'm sorry.
[49:02.150 --> 49:02.330]  I'm sorry.
[49:03.010 --> 49:05.850]  Yeah, I think that actually any hack is art.
[49:06.150 --> 49:09.150]  You know, because, you know, even a buffer overflow is a hack.
[49:09.330 --> 49:10.890]  I mean, it is really beautiful.
[49:10.890 --> 49:14.550]  I mean, it's like a new exploration of something that was never done.
[49:14.850 --> 49:16.030]  Even in social engineering.
[49:16.290 --> 49:19.230]  I mean, I have a friend who is making prank calls.
[49:19.370 --> 49:21.150]  I mean, he's not actually doing anything illegal.
[49:21.350 --> 49:28.230]  But once he called a lady, he pretended to be a telecom, you know, I don't know, technician.
[49:28.750 --> 49:35.310]  And he said to this lady to raise her hand because she had like a battery session in her phone.
[49:35.430 --> 49:37.010]  And she was actually following the orders.
[49:37.110 --> 49:38.750]  I mean, I think that's art too, you know.
[49:38.830 --> 49:39.690]  It was like crazy.
[49:41.270 --> 49:42.410]  It's performance art.
[49:42.550 --> 49:43.590]  It's performance art.
[49:44.530 --> 49:48.910]  And then, you know, he ordered her to flush the toilet, you know, and she went there.
[49:48.910 --> 49:50.990]  I was like, how's that related to the phone?
[49:51.090 --> 49:52.410]  But she was actually doing it.
[50:11.000 --> 50:13.400]  But I have a question now.
[50:14.860 --> 50:26.840]  Actually, your project about the exploding, you know, book, actually that reminded me an idea that I had about going beyond the medium.
[50:26.840 --> 50:34.140]  For example, my idea was to write a book called Memoirs of the Amnesiac.
[50:34.460 --> 50:41.300]  And it was a textbook, I mean, a book, a novel that was written with invisible ink.
[50:42.080 --> 50:49.880]  So basically, like, once it was exposed to carbon dioxide, it would start to fade out all the text.
[50:50.160 --> 50:54.100]  So it would be like mixing that metaphor, you know, in the book.
[50:54.440 --> 51:05.980]  But the frustrating thing was that after a week of having that idea, I realized that someone in Argentina was publishing books with a, you know, disappearing ink.
[51:06.920 --> 51:09.960]  I was like, man, you know, I had that idea first.
[51:16.290 --> 51:20.450]  But, you know, the thing is that it's been happening a lot, you know.
[51:20.630 --> 51:23.210]  I had an idea, then I realized someone else did it.
[51:23.430 --> 51:27.650]  I was wondering if you guys also were, like, having that kind of experiences, you know.
[51:27.790 --> 51:31.770]  Like, like, Graham Bell, who invented the phone, and someone else who comes in.
[51:32.370 --> 51:32.750]  Yeah.
[51:36.060 --> 51:37.640]  I would just say, who cares?
[51:38.780 --> 51:41.240]  Like, who cares if they had that idea?
[51:41.580 --> 51:45.020]  You know, like, you know what you're trying to say, maybe they try to say something different.
[51:45.020 --> 51:52.080]  But the process of trying to have that idea actually come to evolution with how you see it in your mind.
[51:52.400 --> 51:55.540]  I mean, sometimes it can be, I mean, for me personally, sort of, like, foggy.
[51:55.680 --> 51:58.800]  It's like, ah, you know, I want some light, it's like this.
[51:58.800 --> 52:02.780]  And then I start doing it, and then it starts to become real.
[52:03.080 --> 52:11.460]  You know, when you actually start to speak an idea that's sort of foggy in your mind, how that language starts to chisel out your idea.
[52:11.580 --> 52:13.380]  And then you say, no, I didn't mean that word.
[52:13.680 --> 52:16.160]  I actually, you know, this one sounds more right.
[52:16.760 --> 52:22.660]  And that, not only that, that process of your own idea to take shape.
[52:22.660 --> 52:32.040]  And even if you're modeling your process off of somebody else that's done something quite similar, inevitably you're going to do it quite different.
[52:32.380 --> 52:35.760]  And that's part of what evolution is all about.
[52:36.360 --> 52:39.200]  You know, we all do something that everybody else has done.
[52:39.320 --> 52:45.220]  But as a product of doing it as well, it inevitably comes out slightly different.
[52:45.220 --> 53:04.900]  And through the iteration of trying to hone it to closer to what you feel in your heart and in your soul is right, inevitably it may be something quite wildly different than what you initially envisioned and what process that you had mirrored as well.
[53:05.040 --> 53:11.800]  So I think it's a beautiful thing, in addition to developing your own skill set within that.
[53:11.800 --> 53:17.640]  So I never think an idea is, you know, it's something you should do.
[53:17.780 --> 53:20.020]  You shouldn't just throw it away just because somebody else has done it.
[53:20.080 --> 53:21.440]  You need to think of a better excuse.
[53:23.920 --> 53:24.860]  Wait, I got something.
[53:26.440 --> 53:31.140]  So I think that ideas are worthless compared to execution.
[53:31.440 --> 53:35.140]  So I saw that thing with the disappearing books.
[53:35.140 --> 53:38.060]  And I'm sure if you do it, it wouldn't be exactly the same.
[53:38.060 --> 53:41.520]  So like I said, you have to put your own thing on it.
[53:42.040 --> 53:46.600]  That's why I'm not worried about, you know, giving you guys the idea of the exploding book.
[53:46.720 --> 53:48.820]  Because if you do it, that'd be awesome.
[53:48.980 --> 53:50.900]  I might not have to because it'd be so awesome.
[53:51.920 --> 53:53.240]  I have another idea.
[53:53.440 --> 53:56.700]  I can open source for this one too.
[53:57.380 --> 54:04.840]  I want to make a giant pool covered in floating money like Scrooge McDuck.
[54:05.340 --> 54:11.920]  So mold these thousands of hollow metallic gold coins and they can dive in a pool of money.
[54:12.140 --> 54:15.440]  So if you beat me to it, you got to invite me to the party.
[54:16.320 --> 54:17.920]  So go do stuff.
[54:18.380 --> 54:20.860]  And then, I mean, someone did a painting.
[54:20.900 --> 54:24.480]  And then the next person comes along and is like, oh, somebody already put some oil on some board.
[54:24.600 --> 54:25.360]  I can't...
[54:25.360 --> 54:26.560]  You know, you have to...
[54:26.560 --> 54:32.640]  At some point, a lot of this new media stuff, it's like, well, I was the first one to put a spray can on a robot.
[54:32.880 --> 54:34.600]  It's like, yeah, but then you didn't tell anyone how you did.
[54:34.700 --> 54:35.820]  Now I can put a spray...
[54:35.820 --> 54:37.120]  I had to figure it out from scratch.
[54:37.340 --> 54:40.340]  So you do the project and then you open source it.
[54:40.420 --> 54:44.040]  And then the next person does the project even better and some competition.
[54:45.740 --> 54:52.320]  Yeah, I mean, that kind of makes me think about sort of originality.
[54:52.680 --> 54:57.440]  You know, you're talking about the shibboleth of originality, right?
[54:57.520 --> 54:58.480]  Can't happen anymore.
[54:58.680 --> 54:59.120]  That was...
[54:59.120 --> 55:01.920]  I think that's like an echo that comes out of modernism.
[55:02.140 --> 55:15.420]  You know, if you know anything about art history, those guys were really kind of obsessed with getting to an idea first, even if it meant that the product wasn't necessarily so beautiful, right?
[55:16.260 --> 55:19.680]  Not to say there's not beautiful modern art, but I think you know what I'm talking about.
[55:22.560 --> 55:25.540]  You know, these days, I think we're free of that.
[55:25.720 --> 55:38.900]  I think that's maybe the gift that postmodernism gave us is that, you know, really, you know, beautiful things can come out of putting two things that already exist together in a way that, you know, changes the way that they exist.
[55:40.540 --> 55:41.780]  So, thank heavens.
[55:45.020 --> 55:46.320]  Okay, we have one more question.
[55:47.000 --> 55:48.060]  You're going to have to come up.
[55:48.840 --> 55:49.620]  It won't reach.
[55:52.580 --> 55:54.620]  So, I think we haven't...
[55:54.620 --> 55:57.740]  I mean, my question has to do with your process.
[55:58.160 --> 56:02.660]  And you haven't really spoken much about your specific...
[56:02.660 --> 56:05.320]  Like, specific works that you've done.
[56:06.960 --> 56:17.720]  Also, because I think, I mean, over this conference, I've been hearing again and again this very specific definition of what a hack is or what a hacker is, which is something to...
[56:17.720 --> 56:21.080]  It's like using technology in a way that wasn't originally intended to.
[56:21.940 --> 56:26.900]  And I think to attempt a simple definition of art is very ambitious.
[56:27.460 --> 56:29.240]  I sort of go, like, with my gut.
[56:29.560 --> 56:34.580]  Like, I think the ArtFit project that was just mentioned, I think it's awesome, absolutely, but I wouldn't call it art.
[56:35.240 --> 56:38.360]  Just because, I don't know, I think it's like a community design project.
[56:40.240 --> 56:50.480]  And the way you're talking about what you do sort of makes me question if it's art, hacking as art, in the sense that, for instance, Catherine describes processes that are...
[56:50.480 --> 56:55.960]  Like, you really have an intention of what you want to do and then, like, the technology is serving that intention.
[56:56.080 --> 57:01.980]  So, you're not, like, subverting anything with your use of technology or maybe, I don't know, I would like to...
[57:01.980 --> 57:03.460]  That's why I asked, like, what's specific?
[57:03.900 --> 57:06.380]  Or, like, you describe that you use...
[57:06.380 --> 57:11.800]  You go after the glitch image, the glitch aesthetic in images, but you're not, like, using glitches.
[57:11.980 --> 57:15.620]  Like, you're sort of faking, sort of, big glitches in Photoshop.
[57:16.040 --> 57:31.620]  So, I would like you to describe, sort of, maybe if you could describe in a specific project that you've done and if you could come up with, like, what's your own take or, like, what the definition of art or what art is for you and then, sort of, like,
[57:31.720 --> 57:39.100]  to clarify if you're a hacker artist or an artist who uses, like, tools of the hacking community.
[57:39.400 --> 57:42.480]  Like, of course, I mean, everything goes.
[57:42.740 --> 57:45.540]  This is not a value judgment, just to clarify the terms.
[57:46.900 --> 57:47.840]  Thank you.
[57:49.980 --> 57:54.340]  I have one piece that uses mores, which are kind of...
[57:55.100 --> 58:00.400]  They're usually unintended, you know, two screens overlap.
[58:01.760 --> 58:07.300]  I'm using something that is a byproduct, something that's unintended.
[58:07.860 --> 58:11.380]  If you see a more on TV, you're like, oh, I don't like that so much.
[58:12.160 --> 58:26.260]  And it's not... this one doesn't have so many glitches in it, but I took a photo of an LCD screen with my camera and the overlap of the sensor pixels with the screen pixels made this really awesome moray.
[58:26.400 --> 58:27.700]  It's visually interesting.
[58:28.340 --> 58:34.800]  Mess with it in Photoshop and make something that is... that I printed out and hung on a wall.
[58:35.020 --> 58:37.120]  And for some... for most definitions, that's art.
[58:37.120 --> 58:43.080]  But it didn't really concern me that I wasn't trying to make art when I was doing it.
[58:43.160 --> 58:48.880]  I was just trying to make something that was visually appealing that I had fun doing.
[58:52.300 --> 58:53.320]  So... yeah.
[58:54.800 --> 58:56.060]  I had more thoughts.
[58:56.060 --> 58:56.400]  I forgot.
[59:00.080 --> 59:03.480]  I don't remember everything in your question, you know, so I'll be honest.
[59:03.480 --> 59:04.180]  So...
[59:05.160 --> 59:09.340]  For me, it revolves around like a lot of research.
[59:09.700 --> 59:14.140]  Like a lot of research because I'm not...
[59:14.800 --> 59:18.480]  Even though I'm involved in technology a lot, it's a lot what I think about.
[59:18.620 --> 59:19.620]  It's a lot what I do.
[59:20.340 --> 59:23.560]  I still don't feel like I know a lot about technology.
[59:23.940 --> 59:26.580]  You know, I'm constantly learning a lot about those around me.
[59:26.580 --> 59:32.520]  And so when I get an idea, my ideas come out of different things.
[59:32.680 --> 59:36.480]  They don't come out of looking at the materials that I work with.
[59:36.560 --> 59:38.360]  They come out of how I live my life.
[59:38.360 --> 59:40.600]  They come out of how I interact with my friends.
[59:40.860 --> 59:42.420]  They come out of my memories.
[59:42.520 --> 59:49.600]  They come out of things that are not things that you can necessarily see in the physical world.
[59:50.120 --> 59:52.280]  I look at technology to ratify them.
[59:52.520 --> 59:58.460]  And so for me, when I look at my materials, it's all about looking at how I can ratify that.
[59:58.660 --> 01:00:00.980]  And I don't strictly look at...
[01:00:00.980 --> 01:00:02.980]  You know, it's not like I'm a baseball player.
[01:00:02.980 --> 01:00:04.420]  I'm just going to go play baseball.
[01:00:04.700 --> 01:00:06.360]  You know, it's this whole arsenal.
[01:00:06.600 --> 01:00:10.940]  So I'll look at a lot of different things that may achieve the means.
[01:00:10.940 --> 01:00:12.800]  And I look at how they achieve the means.
[01:00:12.980 --> 01:00:16.400]  And I look at how are they poetically going to achieve those means.
[01:00:16.540 --> 01:00:19.580]  Are those close to what I'm trying to do?
[01:00:20.000 --> 01:00:22.060]  So for me, it's not a done deal.
[01:00:22.360 --> 01:00:29.680]  You know, the Philadelphia Museum of Art had this beautiful exhibition of Marcel Duchamp's work.
[01:00:29.800 --> 01:00:33.720]  And they showed it in all the iterations that he did.
[01:00:33.720 --> 01:00:36.240]  And it took like a decade of work.
[01:00:36.540 --> 01:00:44.140]  Like to finally get this sculpture that you could only view through like a slit or, you know, like a peephole.
[01:00:44.320 --> 01:00:50.620]  And all the work he did just to get to that point is really how I look at my own practice.
[01:00:50.960 --> 01:00:55.100]  So it's not just this crossed off my list.
[01:00:55.240 --> 01:00:57.300]  It's ideas that I'm still working on.
[01:00:57.500 --> 01:00:59.040]  It's constant iteration.
[01:00:59.040 --> 01:01:01.860]  It's until I feel satisfied.
[01:01:01.880 --> 01:01:09.640]  And it's very rare on an opening night or an exhibition night that I feel satisfied with what's there.
[01:01:09.780 --> 01:01:13.260]  It's like, you know, that could be tweaked or, you know, now I see this here.
[01:01:13.480 --> 01:01:14.840]  That's like totally wrong.
[01:01:14.960 --> 01:01:16.000]  I've got to do that again.
[01:01:16.180 --> 01:01:17.240]  This is like, you know.
[01:01:17.480 --> 01:01:18.700]  I mean, so it's that.
[01:01:18.700 --> 01:01:22.100]  And it's that that drives me as an artist.
[01:01:22.320 --> 01:01:23.900]  Part of that like unsatisfaction.
[01:01:24.140 --> 01:01:28.180]  And that desire to keep learning and trying to find that.
[01:01:31.490 --> 01:01:42.470]  So you said some, you know, like the definition of hacking is to kind of repurpose a technology or recontextualize a technology, right?
[01:01:43.930 --> 01:01:50.730]  I'll give you a kind of a concrete example out of my own practice with projection, for example.
[01:01:51.230 --> 01:01:55.570]  You know, everybody can see how these things are intended to be done, right?
[01:01:55.570 --> 01:01:58.690]  You project them flat on the wall.
[01:01:58.890 --> 01:02:01.710]  So what happens when you project them on the floor?
[01:02:01.770 --> 01:02:07.690]  Or what happens when you project them onto a topological surface that has some complexity?
[01:02:07.690 --> 01:02:12.750]  Or what happens when you project two things into the same space simultaneously?
[01:02:12.830 --> 01:02:19.090]  Or what happens when you look into the projector rather than look at the projection?
[01:02:19.090 --> 01:02:24.250]  All of these are sort of questions that don't have answers until you try them.
[01:02:24.950 --> 01:02:29.310]  And that begins to inform how a story is told.
[01:02:29.470 --> 01:02:35.250]  It begins to inform meaning, metaphor, things like that, in unexpected ways.
[01:02:35.550 --> 01:02:47.470]  And, you know, I don't really think too much about that, because if you think too hard about the outcome, you know, that's usually when it fails.