[00:01.820 --> 00:06.020]  Unfortunately, I missed the first one as well, because they don't let us out of the Midwest that often.
[00:06.680 --> 00:09.200]  But this is Phreaks, Confs, and Jail.
[00:16.770 --> 00:25.750]  Wow, so there's a lot more people than I kind of expected to see for such a kind of tough act to follow as Rambam there.
[00:27.630 --> 00:31.590]  So, I don't have a presentation with me yet, because we brought the wrong laptop.
[00:31.970 --> 00:35.350]  But I'm going to start it anyway, because I know what the slides are in my head.
[00:35.350 --> 00:40.130]  And you can just kind of visually follow along, because who the hell needs PowerPoint or anything like it?
[00:41.250 --> 00:48.230]  So, where I'm going to take you back to is something that actually is still an active and ongoing scene.
[00:48.230 --> 00:56.910]  It's the conf scene, and that's kind of a critical core part of what it is to be a freak from a social perspective, at least.
[00:58.370 --> 01:04.750]  There's obviously a lot of technical phreak stuff that has been available this weekend, and I'm sure we've gone over it.
[01:04.750 --> 01:10.770]  But confs are an area that really hasn't been captured by any of the talks so far.
[01:10.890 --> 01:14.750]  And I've never really talked about this before, because I don't want to leave in handcuffs.
[01:14.930 --> 01:17.630]  I'm hoping that that won't happen this time.
[01:19.250 --> 01:20.390]  So, what's a conf?
[01:21.350 --> 01:27.490]  Let's kind of take you back to the late 80s and early 90s, where, you know, a lot of this got started.
[01:27.490 --> 01:30.970]  To be clear, confs existed before that.
[01:31.150 --> 01:34.030]  Phreaks would meet on loops to talk and so forth.
[01:34.230 --> 01:42.950]  But really, you know, toward the end of the 80s, like 86, 87, 88, is when the big teleconference scene got started.
[01:43.230 --> 01:48.410]  So, at this time, there was no big Internet series of tubes.
[01:50.150 --> 01:58.530]  There was no real scene as far as being able to meet people electronically.
[01:59.250 --> 02:04.710]  You actually kind of met other freaks, you know, in person at 2600 meetings and the like.
[02:04.710 --> 02:20.590]  So, what we had back in the late 80s was 2600 magazine, some 2600 meetings, some things along the lines of like, you know, local, you know, computer clubs.
[02:20.810 --> 02:27.090]  There was a pretty active one that, you know, a guy you may have heard of, Steve Wozniak, was involved with down in Silicon Valley.
[02:27.250 --> 02:28.710]  And, you know, he was one of the earlier freaks.
[02:30.030 --> 02:33.890]  But there wasn't really the kind of online communities that you had now.
[02:33.890 --> 02:35.970]  The closest thing that we had at the time was BBS's.
[02:36.710 --> 02:44.390]  And you probably, you know, SketchCow did, I think, a 37 hour long documentary on the BBS scene that he has for sale this weekend.
[02:45.490 --> 02:47.470]  It says empty load or not found.
[02:47.970 --> 02:48.350]  What?
[02:48.470 --> 02:48.990]  I'm just kidding.
[02:49.090 --> 02:49.450]  Oh, okay.
[02:51.310 --> 02:53.770]  Yeah, Barcode likes to give me shit about running Windows.
[02:56.670 --> 03:00.410]  So, there's a, there was, there were some freak BBS's at the time.
[03:00.410 --> 03:05.450]  But, you know, basically just to capture the, the way that you interacted wasn't things like IRC.
[03:05.630 --> 03:07.250]  It wasn't things like message forms.
[03:07.350 --> 03:09.910]  It wasn't a lot of the things that you had now.
[03:10.230 --> 03:15.130]  So, you really need to put yourself in that space to kind of understand what this scene's about.
[03:15.590 --> 03:20.390]  So, um, what, what is a conf?
[03:20.770 --> 03:30.090]  Well, a conf is basically a thing that you can dial into, uh, where you can, uh, talk to multiple other people all at the same time.
[03:31.990 --> 03:34.970]  And, I'm gonna try and type my password at the same time.
[03:35.450 --> 03:39.170]  There's, you know, there is never a hope that I've done where things have run on time.
[03:39.830 --> 03:45.270]  And, uh, this is actually, I think, the first, not the first equipment malfunction I've had either, so.
[03:45.410 --> 03:46.970]  God, your password is still secret?
[03:47.410 --> 03:49.050]  Um, no, no, no, no, no.
[03:49.390 --> 03:50.890]  So, hey, Barcode, turn your mic on.
[03:51.410 --> 03:56.250]  So, let me introduce somebody who's on the stage with me, uh, who, uh, ran and grabbed my laptop.
[03:56.890 --> 04:03.430]  Um, okay, hey guys, uh, whoever's running AV, can, can we get one of these mics turned on somehow?
[04:03.430 --> 04:03.510]  No?
[04:04.230 --> 04:04.410]  No?
[04:04.690 --> 04:05.010]  All right.
[04:05.130 --> 04:06.270]  You may have to just come...
[04:06.690 --> 04:07.330]  Oh, yeah.
[04:07.750 --> 04:08.110]  Awesome.
[04:09.230 --> 04:09.910]  That worked.
[04:10.270 --> 04:11.010]  That one worked.
[04:13.670 --> 04:14.670]  It's my talk now.
[04:16.030 --> 04:16.990]  It's your talk now.
[04:17.510 --> 04:18.570]  Can we get his mic on, please?
[04:19.510 --> 04:20.250]  Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[04:20.470 --> 04:23.150]  Oh, so are you gonna be the, uh, the conf operator's friend?
[04:24.430 --> 04:25.850]  Um, okay, are we...
[04:25.850 --> 04:26.310]  Do we have video?
[04:26.550 --> 04:26.630]  No?
[04:28.390 --> 04:29.830]  Function F4, do we have video?
[04:30.110 --> 04:33.470]  How many hackers does it take to get a...
[04:33.470 --> 04:34.210]  Oh, look at that.
[04:34.210 --> 04:35.130]  We got video.
[04:35.930 --> 04:36.330]  Vista.
[04:36.490 --> 04:36.750]  Yay.
[04:38.090 --> 04:38.990]  Yes, it's Vista.
[04:40.590 --> 04:40.990]  Yay.
[04:41.370 --> 04:43.090]  Okay, so we already covered this slide.
[04:43.270 --> 04:44.850]  There's, uh, so how do you meet other hackers?
[04:45.070 --> 04:46.710]  Well, BBSes, confs, all that sort of thing.
[04:49.090 --> 04:49.890]  Uh, and...
[04:49.890 --> 04:53.370]  So, 2600 at the time was more of a freak publication.
[04:53.570 --> 04:58.310]  And so, there was like a real big hardware hacking scene in the late 80s.
[04:58.310 --> 05:02.650]  But there was, you know, basically as far as what we did, it was more freaking.
[05:03.110 --> 05:04.530]  Um, it...
[05:04.530 --> 05:09.210]  And that's what a lot of the articles, if you look at older issues of 2600 magazine, covered.
[05:09.750 --> 05:15.770]  Uh, blue boxes at the time, I'm sure you've all heard of a blue box, especially if you were at the, uh, history of freaking talk this afternoon.
[05:15.770 --> 05:18.570]  They still worked, uh, for the most part.
[05:18.790 --> 05:20.090]  And a lot of people were using them.
[05:20.290 --> 05:25.730]  Um, if you dialed into a BBS, you could dial it into a bit rate of 300, 1200, and 2400 BPS.
[05:26.130 --> 05:29.990]  Um, which is good enough for text, but not really much in terms of downloads.
[05:30.530 --> 05:31.830]  Most of them were long distance.
[05:32.090 --> 05:32.950]  Does anybody...
[05:33.410 --> 05:38.410]  Raise your hand if you remember, like, actually getting a long distance bill over $100.
[05:40.290 --> 05:42.070]  I don't know who got my long distance bill.
[05:42.090 --> 05:44.990]  So, I'm surprised, actually, that we have that many people.
[05:44.990 --> 05:51.750]  But if you were a BBS sysop, especially, you were accustomed to getting a phone bill at least $500 typically any given month.
[05:52.270 --> 05:54.390]  Um, so, toll charges were real.
[05:54.570 --> 06:00.310]  People wanting to find ways to avoid them legally or not was actually, um, you know, a fairly big deal.
[06:00.530 --> 06:05.330]  And I got busted, just, uh, you know, to kind of, like, reveal my age a bit.
[06:05.450 --> 06:06.370]  Um, you can do the math.
[06:06.570 --> 06:12.530]  I got busted in seventh grade, uh, for blue boxing and for all net codes, if anybody remembers what all net was.
[06:12.530 --> 06:15.430]  Uh, so, class of 1992.
[06:15.970 --> 06:18.090]  Still, Internet access wasn't widely available.
[06:18.290 --> 06:25.370]  There was a big debate raging on the Internet, which was still largely an academic and government network at the time, over whether to let AOL on.
[06:25.670 --> 06:27.930]  Um, they probably shouldn't have.
[06:28.690 --> 06:31.690]  Uh, BBS sys were really in their heyday.
[06:31.690 --> 06:32.930]  And I got in on the game.
[06:33.070 --> 06:40.030]  I was running, uh, the bin BBS, which had kind of a secret area for freaking stuff in it and wares and the like.
[06:40.610 --> 06:43.750]  And it's kind of funny because the dark tangent and I were both in, uh, Seattle.
[06:44.470 --> 06:48.590]  And, uh, we traded, uh, messages back and forth since we had a relay network.
[06:48.930 --> 06:51.070]  Um, and a lot of, had a lot of the same users.
[06:51.230 --> 06:52.450]  He ran a dark tangent system.
[06:52.670 --> 06:56.370]  And 2600, not to be outdone, ran a BBS, but with a twist.
[06:56.370 --> 06:58.490]  It was the 2600 voice BBS.
[06:58.750 --> 07:07.990]  And so, if you didn't have a computer, you could call into the voice BBS and you could participate in an online message forum, sort of, except you dialed in.
[07:08.610 --> 07:13.270]  Um, blue boxes, by the, the early 90s, we'd mostly gone to digital switching.
[07:13.450 --> 07:21.430]  And so, for the most part, you could still bounce off, uh, C5 networks, uh, in some foreign countries.
[07:21.450 --> 07:24.950]  Uh, you could, uh, bounce off of, uh, China Direct, for example.
[07:24.950 --> 07:27.250]  But, it was pretty avant-garde.
[07:27.410 --> 07:36.190]  Like, the techniques that, you know, people had learned, like, you know, dial armory recruiting and, and blue box off of that, uh, off of their toll-free number, largely didn't work anymore.
[07:36.810 --> 07:39.170]  Uh, red boxes, uh, still did work.
[07:39.270 --> 07:45.310]  And, in fact, a lot of calls to the 2600 voice BBS, most of them, is my guess, were made by red box.
[07:45.530 --> 07:49.750]  Uh, I made more than a few of them from the pay phone at the school a block away from my parents' house.
[07:50.330 --> 07:53.510]  And, it was considered, like, you know, we have netiquette now.
[07:53.510 --> 08:03.950]  Well, one of the pieces of 2600 voice BBS etiquette, which was widely ignored, was don't blow tones into the phone, like, making fake quarters while you're leaving a message on the voice BBS.
[08:04.090 --> 08:11.670]  So, you'd be listening to a message, somebody saying something, and then, you know, to cut in, please deposit 25 cents for the next one minute.
[08:11.810 --> 08:14.810]  And, you know, somebody deposit a fake quarter.
[08:14.810 --> 08:19.630]  And then, confs, uh, which we talked about already, uh, began to gain a popularity.
[08:19.950 --> 08:22.890]  But, there were, were not a lot of conferencing systems.
[08:23.090 --> 08:28.410]  And, Alliance Teleconferencing, run by AT&T, uh, was the primary one that people were using.
[08:29.130 --> 08:30.790]  Um, and these things were very expensive.
[08:31.130 --> 08:35.730]  You know, typically, you would pay 40 to 50 cents per minute per, per participant.
[08:36.050 --> 08:37.990]  So, they were kind of aimed at high-end businesses.
[08:37.990 --> 08:41.770]  So, why, if you're a freak, would you want to cough?
[08:41.970 --> 08:43.230]  Well, it's a social thing.
[08:43.770 --> 08:46.690]  Um, you could talk to other people who had similar interests.
[08:47.170 --> 08:53.450]  Uh, on the phone, nobody knows that you're a 16-year-old pimply-faced dork in, you know, Wisconsin somewhere.
[08:55.130 --> 09:05.250]  And, very often, uh, when you get a whole bunch of people with a phone and a big ego and a lot of boredom together, um, some hilarity ensued.
[09:05.250 --> 09:09.850]  So, um, Barcode got into the cough scene when he was in high school.
[09:10.110 --> 09:16.910]  And, uh, you know, what was it like, Barcode, uh, coming home from high school, putting your backpack down, and calling the cough?
[09:17.510 --> 09:22.410]  Well, I thought you were six feet tall and black the first time I heard your voice on the phone.
[09:23.090 --> 09:28.590]  Yeah, I have this, uh, you know, telephone voice that's kind of intimidating and big.
[09:29.370 --> 09:35.990]  And nobody knows that I'm, you know, at the time, 18 and 110 pounds.
[09:36.470 --> 09:39.150]  And I had the same voice then as I do now.
[09:39.310 --> 09:41.790]  Of course, I don't talk like that anymore, but...
[09:41.790 --> 09:43.270]  Uh, no, I think he's right.
[09:43.290 --> 09:45.010]  It was a very much a social thing.
[09:45.170 --> 09:54.810]  And, uh, in Sacramento specifically, which we'll get into later, which is where I'm from, we had a pretty active, uh, hacker community, I guess you could say.
[09:54.890 --> 09:57.670]  This is just around the time the 2600 meeting out there started.
[09:57.850 --> 09:59.050]  And what is it, 93?
[09:59.710 --> 10:00.090]  94?
[10:00.650 --> 10:01.030]  Something...
[10:01.030 --> 10:01.830]  2600 meetings started?
[10:01.830 --> 10:02.230]  No, no, no, no.
[10:02.350 --> 10:02.970]  In Sacramento.
[10:03.290 --> 10:03.810]  Oh, in Sacramento.
[10:04.030 --> 10:04.750]  Yeah, I think it was 93.
[10:04.990 --> 10:05.150]  Yeah.
[10:05.570 --> 10:10.050]  And, uh, the reason we probably got into the confs is because the...
[10:10.050 --> 10:11.650]  a lot of them were based out of Sacramento.
[10:11.850 --> 10:18.330]  There was a telephone company out there that was somewhat less than responsible with shredding their trash.
[10:19.250 --> 10:20.830]  That wouldn't be MCI, would it?
[10:20.990 --> 10:21.130]  Yeah.
[10:22.650 --> 10:30.010]  And, uh, and the prophet here had, uh, ultimately somehow up in Seattle, where he was, gotten a hold of some of the conf numbers.
[10:30.010 --> 10:33.570]  There were just voice bridges that they'd set up for these multi-level marketing companies.
[10:34.130 --> 10:43.410]  And, uh, by the time I first called in, I don't remember what the hell was going on the first time I called into one of those conferences, but it certainly wasn't something where I wanted my voice to be heard.
[10:43.550 --> 10:54.450]  Yeah, so if any of you think that Amway serves no use for anything, they were a great source of confs in the early nineties, because what they would do is they'd set up these teleconferences and they'd have all these Amway people call in.
[10:54.730 --> 11:03.010]  And they do, you know, their big Amway rah rah meeting, like, we're going to sell stuff and we're going to show the plan, show the plan, show the plan.
[11:03.070 --> 11:05.370]  And we're all going to be on the diamond yacht.
[11:05.370 --> 11:10.670]  And we're just going to be with Rich DeVos and Jay Van Andel and selling Amway.
[11:11.110 --> 11:18.770]  And then they'd hang up and we'd call in and start three weighing, uh, McDonald's and asking them to take their registers apart.
[11:19.030 --> 11:19.870]  But, you know, anyway.
[11:20.050 --> 11:25.290]  Well, I also found it, thought it was interesting that they would set those confs up to use for an hour and they would be up for six months.
[11:25.290 --> 11:25.970]  Yeah.
[11:26.230 --> 11:26.970]  Yeah, this is true.
[11:27.370 --> 11:35.970]  Well, sometimes these, uh, you know, these guys would dial, like, uh, we'd be on the cough, you know, doing something and then all of a sudden like eight people would join.
[11:36.430 --> 11:41.290]  And, you know, it'd be like, ha, this is Bob from Tulsa, Oklahoma.
[11:41.290 --> 11:45.930]  And I'm here to talk to you about, uh, Melaleuca today.
[11:46.550 --> 11:55.150]  And, you know, like sometimes this happened at awkward times, like when we were three-wayed with, you know, like airlines trying to get them to, you know, give us free tickets or something.
[11:55.290 --> 11:59.990]  Um, so, yeah, I guess that segues nicely into prank calls.
[12:00.190 --> 12:05.090]  So, um, one of our favorite companies to prank was OCI.
[12:05.390 --> 12:08.930]  And this was, uh, an alternate operator service.
[12:09.110 --> 12:16.810]  Uh, so, you know about, uh, Verizon and, you know, the baby bells and the large long distance companies like Sprint and so forth.
[12:16.930 --> 12:31.650]  Well, there were a lot of providers that we'd call Teleslees providers that basically existed to rip you off when you made phone calls on your calling card from pay phones by hoping you wouldn't notice that it was like some sleazy provider instead of the real phone company.
[12:31.790 --> 12:35.110]  And OCI was pretty much at the top of that game.
[12:35.350 --> 12:41.890]  And the great thing with OCI is they had this toll-free back door number that you could dial into and get an OCI operator.
[12:42.050 --> 12:44.430]  And they had no idea where you were calling from.
[12:44.430 --> 12:45.990]  There was no ANI on this thing.
[12:46.250 --> 12:47.390]  So, um...
[12:47.390 --> 12:56.590]  You're leaving off one important part of information, which is that OCI had a very strict policy that their operators could not hang up on you without manager approval.
[12:56.890 --> 12:57.450]  Yeah, yeah.
[12:57.530 --> 12:58.630]  That was the other best part.
[13:00.810 --> 13:02.890]  So, it was pretty interesting.
[13:03.150 --> 13:05.310]  You know, they could only make collect calls and the like.
[13:05.530 --> 13:11.870]  But, you know, we'd call OCI and ask them all sorts of really unusual questions.
[13:11.870 --> 13:18.670]  And we'd try to make collect calls to, you know, very unlikely places that we knew they couldn't make calls to, like Libya.
[13:20.550 --> 13:26.550]  It probably sounds less funny than it was, but just put yourself in that place.
[13:26.550 --> 13:36.790]  You're 16 years old, you're on the phone with a bunch of your friends, and you're calling somebody that can't hang up on you no matter how ridiculous the proposition that you put across the line is.
[13:37.030 --> 13:42.130]  And, you know, it really is a lot of fun even now because they still can't hang up on you.
[13:43.350 --> 13:43.770]  Yeah.
[13:44.190 --> 13:50.370]  So, 1-800-288-2880, by the way, for OCI if you want to try your hand with them.
[13:50.490 --> 13:51.550]  Don't do it, please.
[13:51.790 --> 13:52.670]  There was...
[13:52.670 --> 14:02.050]  So, putting yourself back into cellular phones at the time, they were all crackly analog, and we didn't have the nationwide cellular networks that we do now.
[14:02.410 --> 14:06.270]  So, often you travel from one city to another, and your cell phone wouldn't work.
[14:06.270 --> 14:21.130]  And you'd get put through to this thing called Cellular Express, where for the mere low, low price of, I think, $3.99 a minute, plus a $5 setup fee and who knows what else, you could make, you know, domestic phone calls on a crackly analog cellular.
[14:21.350 --> 14:22.050]  Outgoing only.
[14:23.550 --> 14:29.630]  Well, that was really fun because they had a backdoor toll-free number two, and they also didn't know where you were calling from.
[14:29.630 --> 14:34.790]  They just thought that you were calling from some part of the country that you weren't in.
[14:35.510 --> 14:46.070]  So, Magnate, one of the freaks that was on one of the conferences we called quite a bit, decided to become Bob, the operator's friend.
[14:46.230 --> 14:52.870]  And so, he'd call up, usually at least 15 times a day, and sometimes more than that.
[14:52.970 --> 15:10.450]  And he got to know every single operator in this center and find out, you know, even what the layout of their cubicles was because he'd just call incessantly and ask so many questions that they eventually just started answering everything he asked, and then he'd call and verify with other operators at different times of the day.
[15:10.990 --> 15:19.810]  And, you know, if anybody gave him false information, he'd call until he got the operator that gave him fake information and say, well, John, you lied to me.
[15:20.010 --> 15:25.050]  You told me that the chair next door to you was purple, and I know, in fact, it's blue.
[15:25.850 --> 15:28.810]  You know, why would you lie to Bob, the operator's friend?
[15:29.110 --> 15:37.590]  And, you know, it eventually got to the point that they knew his voice so well that he'd call up and they'd say, hi, Bob, the operator's friend.
[15:37.610 --> 15:38.870]  Well, he'd challenge them.
[15:39.050 --> 15:42.130]  And I have to say, first of all, that this guy was just an epic prick.
[15:42.330 --> 15:44.830]  He was the worst person I've ever met.
[15:45.690 --> 15:50.750]  He is everything that we all try to convince everybody we're not.
[15:50.750 --> 15:52.750]  Like, he is actually an unethical...
[15:54.010 --> 15:55.330]  Yeah, the guy's a real jerk.
[15:55.510 --> 15:55.850]  Besides...
[15:55.850 --> 15:58.670]  We'll get into the point of why he's in federal prison right now later.
[15:59.230 --> 15:59.590]  But...
[15:59.590 --> 16:00.550]  Not a joke.
[16:01.010 --> 16:01.790]  But he would...
[16:01.790 --> 16:07.350]  I would be in the car with this guy and he'd be on, you know, random cloned brick phone three of the day and he would...
[16:07.350 --> 16:12.570]  I would listen to him do this and he would call OCI and he would say, do you know who this is?
[16:12.570 --> 16:14.350]  Well, he'd actually kill Cellular Express.
[16:14.690 --> 16:15.970]  Well, whoever the hell he was calling.
[16:16.090 --> 16:19.970]  And they would say, Bob, the operator's friend.
[16:20.070 --> 16:22.290]  And he'd say, it is Bob, the operator's friend.
[16:22.790 --> 16:23.150]  Good.
[16:23.390 --> 16:24.890]  I'm not gonna bug you anymore today.
[16:25.010 --> 16:26.870]  Send me to another operator and it would just be...
[16:26.870 --> 16:28.550]  And it never ended.
[16:28.830 --> 16:31.690]  And I'm glad the guy's in jail, but we'll get into that.
[16:31.970 --> 16:32.270]  Well, yeah.
[16:32.370 --> 16:37.350]  But the reason that we're glad he's in jail has nothing to do with Bob, the operator's friend, which was really funny, by the way.
[16:37.450 --> 16:39.830]  And nobody does stuff like this anymore, I don't think.
[16:39.990 --> 16:40.630]  Maybe they do.
[16:41.670 --> 16:44.450]  AOL tech support was an endless source of amusement.
[16:44.730 --> 16:48.150]  It didn't used to be, thank you for calling AOL tech support.
[16:48.370 --> 16:49.970]  This is Jim.
[16:50.310 --> 16:50.950]  May I help you?
[16:51.630 --> 16:52.610]  It was...
[16:52.610 --> 16:53.470]  I don't know.
[16:53.610 --> 16:56.310]  With apologies to any Indians in the audience with a thick accent.
[16:56.890 --> 16:59.850]  You know, it was based in Dulles, Virginia, I believe.
[17:00.130 --> 17:08.890]  And so you'd get somebody who spoke English and who had been trained to be really nice to really dumb people on the phone because that's kind of who AOL's customers were.
[17:08.890 --> 17:18.470]  And you could call up and say, Now, I'm trying to law, sign on to the interweb and everything.
[17:18.470 --> 17:27.390]  And you know, when I click on the program, ain't going nothing but beep beep and the lights on my pickup truck flash.
[17:28.410 --> 17:37.430]  And I think AOL like, you know, done hay-wired my wiring on my 68F150.
[17:38.130 --> 17:43.850]  And you know, there were... this was one of the tech support calls that we'd put through.
[17:43.850 --> 17:50.030]  Like, we'd try to convince AOL that somehow, like, they were messing up our pickup truck.
[17:50.410 --> 18:00.670]  And they tried... they would actually very, very, very, very... spend a lot of time, you know, trying to convince us that we shouldn't sue because there's no way that they could have done that.
[18:00.870 --> 18:04.290]  And you know, they... these guys would just dig themselves deeper and deeper.
[18:05.470 --> 18:06.570]  Um... it was pretty funny.
[18:06.710 --> 18:08.870]  Like, they offered to have the legal department call once.
[18:10.330 --> 18:13.110]  Um... Waffle House... now, that may seem fairly unlikely.
[18:13.270 --> 18:17.190]  It's like this chain in the Midwest of waffle restaurants.
[18:17.890 --> 18:24.490]  And the PLA... evidently, like, one of the PLA members... I don't know quite what the story is.
[18:24.570 --> 18:26.570]  And they'll be doing a panel later, so you might ask them.
[18:26.570 --> 18:35.070]  But my understanding of this is, at one point, somebody from the PLA went to Waffle House and didn't get good service from one of the waitresses there.
[18:35.450 --> 18:41.950]  And so, having gotten the name of this waitress, they just called her incessantly for... for months.
[18:42.230 --> 18:45.990]  And asked her all sorts of questions, like, you know...
[18:46.690 --> 18:49.490]  Well, I won't get into the kinds of questions they asked.
[18:49.610 --> 18:50.210]  Good call.
[18:50.470 --> 18:51.250]  Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[18:51.330 --> 18:54.270]  Because this is being filmed, and I don't want to get myself in any trouble.
[18:54.270 --> 19:00.870]  But... and then the last one, and... but definitely not least, that, you know, came to mind, as far as prank calls, was Fred Meyer.
[19:01.450 --> 19:11.330]  Now, Fred Meyer is... if you know what Walmart is, Fred Meyer is kind of like a Walmart, except that, at the time, they sold random things like lumber and, you know, auto parts.
[19:13.350 --> 19:23.650]  But... you could dial-up Fred Meyer, and if you convinced them to transfer you to a particular extension, then you would be on the announcements... in-store announcement system for the store.
[19:23.650 --> 19:32.550]  And you could make any announcement you wanted over the phone, and everybody in the store would hear it all throughout the store.
[19:32.750 --> 19:45.430]  And there was no way that they could make this stop, except by powering down the phone system, which nobody knew how to do, because AT&T ran it, and they had to get AT&T out to power the system down.
[19:45.430 --> 19:57.310]  So, you would... you were guaranteed that if you got transferred to this particular extension, which I won't say is 900 or 9,000 on here, then... oh, wait.
[19:57.930 --> 19:59.070]  I didn't say that.
[20:00.190 --> 20:01.890]  It's something other than that, I'm sure.
[20:03.190 --> 20:06.110]  Yeah, they would put you on the in-store system.
[20:06.350 --> 20:09.470]  And, you know, so it was great to make ludicrous announcements.
[20:09.470 --> 20:17.070]  Did you know that if a price of some item gets announced over the in-store system, they legally have to honor it?
[20:18.490 --> 20:19.010]  So...
[20:20.370 --> 20:23.830]  There was an absolute run on bananas one day.
[20:24.050 --> 20:26.070]  Like, people went bananas for bananas.
[20:26.430 --> 20:28.450]  They were only nine cents a pound.
[20:28.470 --> 20:29.350]  It was a great deal.
[20:30.190 --> 20:34.310]  I think they sold completely out of bananas in the Tualet and Fred Meyer.
[20:35.010 --> 20:36.870]  Yeah, I had nothing to do with that.
[20:36.970 --> 20:45.350]  And when they shut down those extensions, there may or may not have been some people that climbed onto the roof of the building and installed a BBS underneath the air conditioning unit at that extension?
[20:45.350 --> 20:47.330]  Well, that was a Safeway, but that's a different story.
[20:47.470 --> 20:47.630]  Oh, I'm sorry.
[20:49.970 --> 20:54.350]  Yeah, BBSs, by the way, you know, anywhere that you had a computer and a phone line, you could set one up.
[20:54.470 --> 20:57.530]  And it didn't necessarily need to be your computer or your phone line.
[20:58.030 --> 21:13.690]  As long as you had a way to power it and some phone line to plug into, then it was perfectly plausible for a BBS to, like, say, be clipped into, like, a credit card verification line at a Safeway that never received incoming calls or did it.
[21:15.830 --> 21:16.310]  Yeah.
[21:16.310 --> 21:18.690]  So, we get into the mid-1990s.
[21:18.950 --> 21:24.090]  By the way, that BBS, I heard, might have contained some very illegal stuff.
[21:25.930 --> 21:30.130]  So, in mid-1990s, cops are, like, really starting to blow up.
[21:30.310 --> 21:32.270]  They're gaining popularity in business.
[21:32.450 --> 21:33.970]  Everybody's using them at this point.
[21:34.170 --> 21:40.830]  And so, well, anytime something gets big, people like us start hacking those things.
[21:41.250 --> 21:44.330]  And so, hacking teleconferences really gain a lot of popularity.
[21:45.090 --> 21:46.370]  Alliance, why stop?
[21:46.530 --> 21:57.790]  They started monitoring conferences periodically because at some point, some percentage, the percentage of legitimate conferences was eclipsed by the percentage of fraudulent ones.
[21:58.410 --> 22:02.090]  So, they started shutting down hacker conferences pretty quickly.
[22:02.770 --> 22:09.270]  So, there was... the Jet Propulsion Labs in Pasadena, California, had a bridge that they only used during business hours.
[22:09.470 --> 22:11.350]  And after business hours, it was full of freaks.
[22:12.190 --> 22:20.290]  There was a phone company called Citizens Utilities in California that ran a bunch of bridges that we were on.
[22:20.290 --> 22:23.010]  There was a company called Ripple that's still around.
[22:23.390 --> 22:28.290]  If you go to talkie.com, T-A-L-K-E-E.com, that company's still around.
[22:28.450 --> 22:31.190]  They still run recreational teleconferences.
[22:31.550 --> 22:35.410]  But the problem, remember, long distance cost money at this time.
[22:35.550 --> 22:37.870]  We didn't have these unlimited cell plans that we have now.
[22:38.210 --> 22:40.230]  They were almost all long distance.
[22:40.530 --> 22:42.190]  So, well, there's ways around that.
[22:42.410 --> 22:44.490]  You know, you could set up a toll-free number, for instance.
[22:46.570 --> 22:48.450]  So, of course, toll-free numbers.
[22:48.650 --> 22:52.810]  If you set up a toll-free number, that means that whoever has the toll-free number pays the bill.
[22:53.250 --> 22:55.090]  And we didn't want a bill.
[22:55.610 --> 23:02.350]  So, the best thing to do is to take a toll-free number maybe that belongs to somebody else and reroute it somewhere.
[23:02.350 --> 23:11.110]  So, a guy named Mega Elite, who was a pretty active freak at the time, he's mentally retarded and he's only really good at freaking.
[23:11.310 --> 23:13.290]  But he's very, very good at that in social engineering.
[23:13.490 --> 23:15.450]  He's still sort of semi-active in the scene.
[23:15.450 --> 23:19.890]  As in active, as in he literally brute forces...
[23:19.890 --> 23:22.090]  Yeah, I mean, this guy scans by hand.
[23:22.570 --> 23:33.790]  If you were at the Telephreak panel earlier, where they were demonstrating, like, you know, scanning with ToneLoc, Mega Elite just, you know, dials by hand each number and listens to what happens.
[23:33.950 --> 23:38.130]  There's no automated techniques for this guy, but he finds a lot of really interesting stuff.
[23:38.310 --> 23:43.230]  And then he's, you know, like I said, he's mentally retarded, so he doesn't have a job.
[23:43.230 --> 23:50.230]  He has literally all day to do nothing but sit on the phone and talk to anybody who answers and try to be their friend.
[23:50.450 --> 23:52.750]  And he really does want to be friends with anybody he talks to.
[23:54.130 --> 23:56.470]  And, you know, I'm not talking smack about the guy.
[23:56.690 --> 24:00.590]  Like, you know, that's just kind of the world he lives in.
[24:00.870 --> 24:06.750]  So, he found a phone number that was part of a bulk account belonging to a paging company.
[24:07.250 --> 24:09.470]  And it's spelled 1-850-SATAN.
[24:09.530 --> 24:11.650]  And he likes phone numbers that spell interesting things.
[24:11.650 --> 24:14.410]  And he was kind of really interested in the occult at the time.
[24:14.670 --> 24:17.950]  So, he found that, and it went through to this disconnected pager.
[24:18.170 --> 24:23.450]  So, he knew that it was like an 800 number that was up, and then it went to something that was disconnected.
[24:23.830 --> 24:35.330]  So, he did a reverse lookup, which you could do through certain numbers called Rasborg numbers that were operated by various long-distance companies.
[24:35.330 --> 24:41.570]  And found out that a long-distance company called Wiltel, which is the most ghetto long-distance company that ever existed.
[24:41.790 --> 24:43.730]  It's now back in its second incarnation.
[24:44.010 --> 24:49.190]  But they got their start by running fiber optic cable through disused gas pipeline in Oklahoma.
[24:49.530 --> 24:54.190]  It was like kind of one of those weird ideas some cowboy had that actually turned into a phone company.
[24:55.290 --> 25:02.750]  And he called up their knock and got some good old boy in Oklahoma to reroute that number to the rap line.
[25:03.150 --> 25:08.990]  And the rap line, like, if you called it, if you did any checking at all, you would never reroute anything there.
[25:08.990 --> 25:10.970]  Because it answered, what's up?
[25:11.170 --> 25:14.670]  You reached the rap line, and it's right on time.
[25:15.170 --> 25:20.010]  Operator, we don't take no collect, third-party, or credit card calls.
[25:20.370 --> 25:24.430]  You know, and it's like, it was basically like, you know, it was the rap line.
[25:24.610 --> 25:26.690]  You know, it was all about hip-hop.
[25:27.270 --> 25:30.310]  How did you get me to agree to this, by the way?
[25:30.430 --> 25:30.950]  I'm sorry.
[25:31.050 --> 25:36.450]  Yeah, there'd be, you know, no legitimate reason to have a toll-free number there ever, and it would be obvious to anyone.
[25:36.450 --> 25:39.470]  So, you know, this guy just rerouted it through, didn't check anything.
[25:39.870 --> 25:43.170]  And so, this number was up for literally three months.
[25:43.610 --> 25:46.370]  And, like, you'd call it, and it would be constantly busy.
[25:46.530 --> 25:52.170]  The rap line was constantly jammed full of, like, a combination of hip-hop people and freaks, which was kind of strange.
[25:54.090 --> 25:58.790]  The dynamics got to be, especially when it came to arguments, got to be a little bit interesting.
[26:01.230 --> 26:05.370]  But, eventually, Wiltel figured out what happened, and they didn't just shut the number down.
[26:05.370 --> 26:06.590]  They did it one better.
[26:06.730 --> 26:07.510]  They were really mad.
[26:08.170 --> 26:18.490]  So, they routed it to this internal recording that was a special disconnect intercept that somebody, some engineer in the Wiltel lock set up intentionally.
[26:18.790 --> 26:21.550]  And it said, welcome to our long distance service.
[26:21.770 --> 26:28.510]  If you are experiencing difficulty completing your call, please hang up and dial 1-800-I'M-A-HACKER.
[26:28.510 --> 26:29.930]  And we've got your number.
[26:30.150 --> 26:30.690]  Thank you.
[26:33.130 --> 26:36.750]  I think that T-Love has a recording of that around somewhere still.
[26:37.010 --> 26:38.270]  But, anyway.
[26:38.910 --> 26:52.090]  So, in the background, like, the cowboy who started Wiltel was making a deal with another cowboy named Bernie Ebers, who was building a company called WorldCom that then became one of the largest stock frauds in the U.S.
[26:52.190 --> 26:52.410]  history.
[26:52.410 --> 26:59.010]  But, before that happened, WorldCom ended up acquiring Wiltel in some enormous, crazy, all-stock transaction.
[26:59.350 --> 27:03.330]  So, I don't know whether the cowboy got out in time before that happened or what.
[27:03.610 --> 27:04.290]  Don't really care.
[27:04.730 --> 27:10.150]  But, the end result was the Wiltel engineers left and the WorldCom engineers came in.
[27:10.150 --> 27:14.370]  And, one day, the WorldCom, some WorldCom switch engineer found this.
[27:14.990 --> 27:29.050]  And, thinking that, obviously, it must have been some, some act of subterfuge or sabotage by the outgoing Wiltel staff who knew they were losing their jobs, he did the only logical thing, which was to route the number back to the wrap line, which, of course,
[27:29.210 --> 27:30.070]  was where it should have been.
[27:30.350 --> 27:39.090]  So, it was up for another two months before, eventually, WorldCom figured out that, no, having a toll-free number to the wrap line isn't what they should be doing.
[27:39.470 --> 27:40.530]  And, that went away.
[27:42.770 --> 27:44.950]  So, one triple eight Magnate.
[27:45.290 --> 27:49.710]  Magnate, the guy we talked about earlier, he really wanted a number that spelled his name.
[27:49.870 --> 27:54.170]  So, as soon as the 888 prefix became available, he set up a subscription fraud with MCI.
[27:54.630 --> 27:58.830]  Now, unfortunately for Magnate, MCI was really wise to this kind of thing.
[27:59.070 --> 28:06.370]  So, although he managed to get the setup slipped by them, they had a verification team that would go through and do quality assurance later.
[28:06.570 --> 28:08.010]  And so, a week later, it got shut down.
[28:08.590 --> 28:20.550]  And then, somebody who's not me attached a toll-free number spelling 1-800 jail bond to a different bridge.
[28:20.930 --> 28:25.250]  And so, basically, like, identity theft, everybody knows what that is now.
[28:25.510 --> 28:33.270]  But back then, like, the idea of stealing the identity of a company and signing up for service on the existing account, which is really easy to do.
[28:33.470 --> 28:38.310]  Like, you know, you have an existing account that belongs to some company, and you just want to add additional services.
[28:38.630 --> 28:40.810]  Well, companies always want to sell you more stuff.
[28:40.830 --> 28:43.030]  So, it was really easy to do this.
[28:43.150 --> 28:48.250]  And if it was a big company, it could be a while before they noticed and shut it down.
[28:48.330 --> 28:50.170]  And this one lasted for six months at least.
[28:51.730 --> 28:58.410]  So, in the meantime, I was living in Oregon and had some friends, one of whom's named The Felon.
[28:58.410 --> 29:03.150]  And he was a felon then, and he's much more of a felon now.
[29:03.370 --> 29:08.950]  And so, we'd go out and we'd actually call each other and say, hey, let's go out and commit felonies tonight.
[29:09.010 --> 29:09.970]  And it was very casual.
[29:11.430 --> 29:17.010]  So, yeah, fortunately, the statute of limitations, I think, has passed for most of that stuff.
[29:17.170 --> 29:18.170]  But I needed to get a...
[29:18.170 --> 29:18.670]  You think?
[29:18.890 --> 29:19.430]  I think.
[29:19.750 --> 29:23.690]  Well, you know, we live in an era where there's retroactive laws.
[29:23.690 --> 29:29.130]  We're like, you break the law if you're a corporation, and then we retroactively pass a law like granting immunity.
[29:29.430 --> 29:34.870]  And then, you know, the Patriot Act retroactively extended the statute of limitations for a lot of stuff.
[29:34.970 --> 29:38.310]  So, I think it's just a matter of whether the police want to arrest you now.
[29:39.290 --> 29:40.870]  But a guy named...
[29:40.870 --> 29:43.630]  Well, I'm not going to say his name here, because there's people that might run it.
[29:43.730 --> 29:48.090]  But a Secret Service agent showed up at the 2600 meeting in Portland, which I started, by the way.
[29:49.270 --> 29:50.970]  And was looking for the profit.
[29:51.250 --> 29:53.710]  And around that time, I thought it was a good idea to get out of town.
[29:53.910 --> 29:57.130]  So, where do you go when you're from Oregon and you need to get out of town?
[29:57.130 --> 29:59.870]  A small town in Arkansas is a good place to lie low.
[30:00.630 --> 30:07.450]  I was right down the road from Booger Hollow in a place called Toad Suck, which is down the road from Pickles Gap.
[30:07.550 --> 30:08.610]  And yes, these are all places.
[30:09.670 --> 30:10.410]  I've been there.
[30:10.530 --> 30:11.350]  They're actually real.
[30:11.710 --> 30:12.170]  Yeah, yeah.
[30:12.290 --> 30:14.210]  A barcode actually came and visited.
[30:14.350 --> 30:15.090]  An unrelated reason.
[30:15.490 --> 30:16.030]  Toad Suck.
[30:17.130 --> 30:18.150]  So, yeah.
[30:18.430 --> 30:23.790]  Anyway, at that point, there was a lot of stuff going on.
[30:23.930 --> 30:24.990]  And so, we did...
[30:25.670 --> 30:28.510]  There was a lot of cloning that was happening with cellular phones.
[30:29.890 --> 30:33.430]  One thing that was a popular device was called a DDI.
[30:33.830 --> 30:38.710]  And so, just a quick crash course on analog cell phones.
[30:38.870 --> 30:39.890]  There was no security.
[30:40.490 --> 30:47.970]  Anything that you sent through the air, like your ESN, your MIN pair, everything having to do with your phone just got sent completely in the clear.
[30:48.690 --> 30:58.910]  And so, the obvious solution that Congress came up with for this, rather than mandating digital technology that would have been more secure, is they made it illegal to listen to certain radio frequencies.
[30:58.910 --> 31:05.170]  And I'm sure that we all in this room would never do anything the government doesn't want in that area.
[31:06.210 --> 31:17.030]  So, if you had a RadioShack scanner that wasn't even modified, it was just a little older than the current year, and you had a computer with a piece of software loaded on it, you could just snarf ESN/MIN pairs out of the day.
[31:17.170 --> 31:20.810]  And an ESN/MIN pair is basically all the information you need to clone somebody's phone.
[31:21.390 --> 31:24.090]  You could snarf all this out of the air all day long.
[31:24.310 --> 31:25.730]  And so, that kind of happened.
[31:26.470 --> 31:37.090]  We were in Las Vegas, and I remember sitting in a hotel room with, you know, this guy and a couple other people from Oregon, at DEFCON 2, I think.
[31:37.710 --> 31:46.530]  And, you know, we're just... I have never seen ESN/MIN pairs come across a computer screen as quickly as on the strip in Las Vegas.
[31:46.530 --> 31:48.850]  It was just bam, bam, bam, bam, bam, bam, bam, bam.
[31:48.970 --> 31:49.710]  It was nuts.
[31:49.970 --> 31:54.450]  Because, you know, where are you going to go to clone cell phones except where people are making a lot of phone calls?
[31:55.970 --> 32:00.130]  One of the carriers there... who was the carrier that had the really cool announcements?
[32:00.310 --> 32:01.690]  Do you remember who that was in Las Vegas?
[32:02.750 --> 32:08.270]  Well, eventually they got acquired by Sprint, but they had some really awesome announcements when you called out.
[32:08.410 --> 32:13.090]  It would go... and then, your call cannot be completed, it's dialed.
[32:13.170 --> 32:14.790]  Please check the number and try again.
[32:14.790 --> 32:17.330]  This is a message from the cellular carrier, Las Vegas.
[32:18.990 --> 32:21.490]  There were Oki 900s if you wanted to clone a phone.
[32:22.350 --> 32:35.510]  And that was the most preferred model since you could take a chip out, replace it with a different one that had been programmed with software that would allow you to very easily input ESN/MIN pairs that you start with a DDI or got from other sources.
[32:35.690 --> 32:40.130]  And there were code lines where people would post ESN/MIN pairs and BBSs that were full of these things.
[32:41.250 --> 32:45.430]  And a Motorola brick was another popular phone because it was a lot cheaper.
[32:45.570 --> 32:48.210]  You could pick them up in pawn shops for like 10 bucks at the time.
[32:48.510 --> 32:53.210]  And all you had to do was solder it to a parallel port and you could program them through your computer.
[32:53.390 --> 32:56.050]  And so, you know, me being broke, that's what I used.
[32:57.330 --> 32:59.770]  At the time, there were manual billing arrangements.
[32:59.770 --> 33:02.270]  You didn't have this electronic billing that you have now.
[33:02.550 --> 33:10.690]  So you could go like trashing for ESN/MIN pairs like at a cellular store somewhere in say Mississippi down the road from Booger Hollow.
[33:11.030 --> 33:16.330]  And then you could take those pairs up to say like, you know, Seattle.
[33:16.670 --> 33:18.590]  And you could use them for a good month.
[33:18.590 --> 33:29.350]  And then when the bill for a billion dollars like got mailed on paper on like 700 pages to the cellular carrier in Mississippi, only then would your ESN/MIN pair get killed.
[33:29.630 --> 33:33.350]  So, you know, having a pair that would last for a long time was kind of a big deal.
[33:34.210 --> 33:37.210]  So there were A and B sides on cellulars.
[33:37.390 --> 33:41.650]  You would have some A side carriers that interoperated sort of and they could do follow me roaming.
[33:41.830 --> 33:44.070]  And then there were B side carriers that used a different system.
[33:44.830 --> 33:47.530]  B side used a system called mobile link.
[33:47.530 --> 33:48.950]  In general.
[33:49.290 --> 33:51.590]  And then the A side used a system called the NACN.
[33:52.570 --> 33:58.630]  You know, now you just get on a plane, land, fire up your phone and it works and you don't have any of these considerations.
[33:59.030 --> 34:03.310]  But some A side carriers operated service on both the A and B side.
[34:03.590 --> 34:05.230]  And US West Cellular was one of these.
[34:05.370 --> 34:09.470]  They operated an A side system in Omaha and a B side system nearly everywhere else.
[34:09.750 --> 34:22.850]  So if you took a carrier's ESN/MIN pair and you operated it on the opposite system of them, that was even better because you could receive incoming calls in your market and you would never ring the other guy's phone.
[34:23.130 --> 34:27.630]  So you could... and you know, none of the systems that dealt with follow me roaming linked up.
[34:27.810 --> 34:29.130]  So it was kind of fun.
[34:29.290 --> 34:34.830]  Like, you know, cellular freaking was... gave a lot of opportunities for interesting stuff.
[34:35.510 --> 34:41.610]  The felon, one of our friends who's still active on Telephreak, cloned I think half of Omaha.
[34:41.610 --> 34:48.670]  He was kind of in business for himself sort of and got a little busted for that.
[34:49.330 --> 34:53.910]  And then one of the best prank calls that we made was, you know, B string called in to a cough.
[34:55.690 --> 35:06.210]  And we made a call to the White House and needed to urgently speak to the secret service to find out, you know, whether or not the president used Amway products.
[35:06.210 --> 35:12.350]  You know, this was, this was, you know, after one of those Amway conferences, this was something that we really, really needed to know.
[35:12.630 --> 35:17.050]  So, um, they asked for a lot of information personal about ourselves.
[35:17.190 --> 35:19.050]  And I'm sure whatever we told them was accurate.
[35:19.310 --> 35:22.470]  And then told us that it was none of our business whether the president used Amway products.
[35:22.650 --> 35:25.910]  So I think President Clinton definitely used Amway products.
[35:25.910 --> 35:31.190]  Um, and immediately after that, I've never seen an ESM/MIN pair killed so quickly.
[35:31.390 --> 35:37.670]  Like, you know, 10 minutes later, B string called back into the cough and he's like, man, f*ck you, man.
[35:37.970 --> 35:41.490]  My ESM/MIN pair got all NAM, got all toasty, man.
[35:41.690 --> 35:44.110]  What the hell you doing having me call that number, man?
[35:44.650 --> 35:45.510]  It was pretty fun.
[35:46.190 --> 35:52.930]  Um, so, uh, then kind of things came crashing down and some of us started going to jail.
[35:53.150 --> 35:56.790]  Uh, and this guy is one of the ones who, like, got busted.
[35:57.090 --> 36:00.850]  Um, Barcode Magnate and Dr. Havoc all got busted in the same week.
[36:01.210 --> 36:07.010]  Um, so, like, the other thing to kind of keep in mind is that the feds are a lot more clued now than they used to be.
[36:07.110 --> 36:17.370]  Like, some phone shenanigans they're typically willing to not really get involved with if it doesn't really have anything to do with terrorism or, like, you know, stealing money or anything along those lines.
[36:17.970 --> 36:23.210]  Um, back then, if you were a hacker, you were as good as a terrorist as far as these guys were concerned.
[36:23.370 --> 36:24.410]  They had not been trained.
[36:24.610 --> 36:28.670]  They didn't really realize that, you know, crimes with computers were the same as crimes with other crimes.
[36:28.830 --> 36:30.630]  And they didn't, or crimes with other mediums.
[36:30.950 --> 36:33.890]  And they didn't really understand, like, what computer crime was.
[36:34.090 --> 36:38.570]  So, you were dealing with a very, very aggressive law enforcement atmosphere.
[36:38.910 --> 36:41.610]  And the other thing that was kind of fun was there was a lot of infighting.
[36:41.610 --> 36:53.750]  Like, the FBI and the Secret Service couldn't make up their mind who was responsible for what and so sometimes you had people getting busted by both law enforcement agencies on successive days for the same things.
[36:53.910 --> 36:57.890]  And that resulted in a lot of cases, like, not coming off very well.
[36:58.070 --> 37:02.150]  So the feds, to their credit, have much more of a clue now than they used to.
[37:02.250 --> 37:04.310]  So you really have to take yourself back to that time.
[37:05.470 --> 37:08.710]  But Barcode probably ought to talk about his bust.
[37:08.710 --> 37:09.790]  Yeah, I've got to jump in here.
[37:09.930 --> 37:11.470]  I've got to take five minutes from you.
[37:11.970 --> 37:18.330]  So I'm at ToorCon, Seattle, 2008, and the prophet's about to go up and give this talk.
[37:18.530 --> 37:19.630]  And he says, oh, I'm going up.
[37:19.730 --> 37:20.370]  I'm going to give this talk.
[37:20.450 --> 37:21.090]  I said, oh, that's great.
[37:21.130 --> 37:21.550]  What's it about?
[37:21.750 --> 37:24.730]  He's like, oh, it's about that thing where your mom got pulled out of the shower naked at gunpoint.
[37:25.370 --> 37:27.610]  Oh, that's cool.
[37:29.210 --> 37:37.470]  But it did get me thinking that trying to delineate hacker generations, you can come up with a lot of ways to do it.
[37:37.470 --> 37:41.870]  You can say, oh, you know, one generation of hackers existed before, you know, your mom had an email address.
[37:42.050 --> 37:43.490]  And after that, it's the next generation.
[37:43.690 --> 37:48.090]  Or before, you know, pick any type of major topic before, you know, we were charging for domains.
[37:48.530 --> 38:00.030]  But I think that a really good way to delineate generations of hackers is the point at which the feds stopped being the bad guy, or we stopped being the bad guy to the feds.
[38:00.190 --> 38:01.970]  And that was relatively recently.
[38:02.810 --> 38:12.290]  Obviously, there's still many exceptions to this rule, but there was a point not long ago where I was, you know, us in Sacramento, and this is a story I'm specifically going to tell.
[38:12.390 --> 38:13.510]  I'm going to breeze through this very quickly.
[38:13.950 --> 38:21.310]  But in Sacramento, when the 2600 meeting started, we had an incredibly adversarial relationship with the cops, basically.
[38:21.890 --> 38:23.270]  That 2600 meeting was...
[38:23.270 --> 38:27.550]  The Sacramento County High Tech Crime Squad, which was newly established, and it had something to prove.
[38:27.550 --> 38:30.030]  Well, no, there was a good reason they were established, to be fair.
[38:30.430 --> 38:35.490]  So, Sacramento 2600 was relatively sizable, and everybody there was up to some sort of shady BS.
[38:35.710 --> 38:39.990]  I mean, it was, to be perfectly honest, these were pretty shady people, including myself, to a certain extent.
[38:41.190 --> 38:47.090]  But one particular thing happened, and some of you will know about this, and some of you won't, but there was a gentleman named Josh Cohen.
[38:47.630 --> 38:48.970]  His nickname was PacBell.
[38:49.290 --> 38:50.270]  God rest in peace.
[38:50.270 --> 39:00.030]  And he stole something in the seven figures of hardware from Hewlett-Packard, and sold it to the mob.
[39:00.750 --> 39:02.950]  And he was part of the 2600 crew.
[39:03.130 --> 39:05.270]  So, this did not bode well for us.
[39:05.350 --> 39:11.030]  As soon as this occurred, we became public enemy number one, and they formed this high-tech crime task force.
[39:11.270 --> 39:13.690]  And they were actively surveilling us.
[39:13.810 --> 39:15.230]  This isn't, like, one of those paranoid things.
[39:15.230 --> 39:23.010]  Like, they actually had people with, like, telephoto lenses on the other side of the mall from the 2600 meeting, and we would just walk right up to them and be like, what are you guys doing?
[39:23.190 --> 39:27.170]  Yeah, so the Spot the Fed contest at DEFCON, like, isn't a joke.
[39:27.350 --> 39:29.010]  It started out being real.
[39:29.110 --> 39:36.970]  Well, and to be fair, the San Francisco 2600 meeting also had people surveilling us, just because they were jerks like that, and they decided to come get us, which was actually pretty funny, to be fair.
[39:37.290 --> 39:39.050]  So, hey, let's spot the Fed.
[39:39.150 --> 39:39.630]  Who's a Fed?
[39:39.810 --> 39:40.290]  Raise your hand.
[39:41.290 --> 39:41.630]  There you go.
[39:41.750 --> 39:41.990]  Nice.
[39:42.950 --> 39:43.990]  They still won't tell you.
[39:43.990 --> 40:01.110]  So, one of the side effects of this was that being, you know, young and pretty arrogant, it was kind of like an ongoing Cold War, where we would do things to aggravate them, they would do things to aggravate us, and they even would send undercover officers to the meeting,
[40:01.630 --> 40:09.350]  but, you know, we would invite them back to the after party, run their plates, find out they're cops, and walk right up to them, and be like, you know, you're a cop.
[40:10.070 --> 40:11.370]  And they would be like, no, no, I'm not.
[40:11.490 --> 40:11.770]  I'm like, really?
[40:11.930 --> 40:15.910]  Because this says, yarr, and...
[40:17.890 --> 40:19.030]  And they didn't like that very much.
[40:19.090 --> 40:20.150]  And that happened, like, three times.
[40:20.290 --> 40:23.150]  And at some point, you figure, like, God, you know, use someone else's car.
[40:23.730 --> 40:27.410]  You know, it's been, like, three times, like, in the same six-month period.
[40:27.410 --> 40:41.150]  So, and the thing that really made things worse was that one time there was a particular hacker that, as kind of a retaliatory thing, he pulled the blueprints of the lead detectives home, and Xeroxed them...
[40:41.150 --> 40:41.970]  Which you can still do.
[40:42.130 --> 40:43.170]  They're a public record for now.
[40:43.270 --> 40:46.250]  Yeah, Xeroxed them, and brought them to 2600, and just handed them out.
[40:46.390 --> 40:50.070]  And, of course, there was a cop there, and that got back very quickly.
[40:50.950 --> 40:55.750]  And this happened at a very strange time period, and we're going to rapidly fast-forward through a crazy sequence of events.
[40:56.490 --> 40:59.430]  A couple of friends of ours got busted for some pretty strange hacks.
[41:00.070 --> 41:07.290]  One thing that happened was a friend of ours accidentally, and this is actually the truth, he was trying to break into a system, and that was intentional, and he did.
[41:07.550 --> 41:11.410]  But what he didn't know was that the system was actually some sort of control system for a dam.
[41:11.810 --> 41:14.530]  Yeah, it was a SCADA system, like, controlling the Columbia River.
[41:15.490 --> 41:17.790]  So, the Secret Service, or FBI, or somebody got called in.
[41:17.850 --> 41:18.770]  He got busted for this.
[41:18.930 --> 41:20.110]  And this was in Canada, too.
[41:20.290 --> 41:21.930]  Like, it was the RCMP that went after him.
[41:22.070 --> 41:23.550]  Yeah, yeah, and so he got busted.
[41:23.550 --> 41:26.310]  He kind of gave some information out, but not really.
[41:26.450 --> 41:28.990]  He was actually a really cool guy, and he tried to, you know, kind of protect everybody.
[41:29.410 --> 41:32.630]  But that led to the conf, because he was calling into the conf.
[41:32.910 --> 41:38.490]  So, the conf started getting monitored by some sort of law enforcement agency, and one by one, they started picking us off.
[41:38.590 --> 41:42.710]  And we knew this was happening, and it started with a guy named Magnate, who we brought up earlier.
[41:43.790 --> 41:47.530]  Magnate is just the worst person ever, and he really wanted to get caught.
[41:47.710 --> 41:48.970]  Like, everything he was doing...
[41:48.970 --> 41:49.870]  Thank you, Seastone.
[41:49.950 --> 41:51.010]  He really was the worst person ever.
[41:51.490 --> 41:52.950]  He really wanted to get caught.
[41:53.230 --> 41:54.050]  He did really...
[41:54.050 --> 42:03.410]  I mean, this guy was, like, on a clone phone in a stolen Buick, driving over metal road cones, throwing up, like, a fishtail of sparks behind him on the freeway with both fingers up out the window.
[42:03.590 --> 42:04.150]  I mean, he was...
[42:04.150 --> 42:05.810]  This is not a fake story.
[42:05.990 --> 42:07.390]  It was between Sacramento and Lodi.
[42:07.530 --> 42:08.890]  He actually did this.
[42:09.590 --> 42:11.130]  And then just claimed ignorance.
[42:11.770 --> 42:14.250]  Like, I was having a seizure or something, and he got away with it.
[42:14.250 --> 42:16.550]  So, great, great BS artist.
[42:17.550 --> 42:24.170]  So, he gets busted, surprisingly enough, while he's driving around.
[42:24.290 --> 42:25.190]  He's literally on the conf.
[42:25.390 --> 42:28.250]  He's, I'm going to Taco Bell to try to pull some sort of scam, and he drops.
[42:28.930 --> 42:41.430]  And we get really suspicious, because some other people had recently dropped, and we call his employer the next day, find out he hadn't shown up for work, he was still in school, called his school, found out he hadn't shown up, and at that point, we knew we were completely screwed.
[42:41.430 --> 42:42.290]  I mean, that was it.
[42:42.830 --> 42:44.690]  Sure enough, Magnate gave all of us up.
[42:44.990 --> 42:49.150]  He, by name, gave up my home address, totally dumped all of our docs.
[42:49.350 --> 42:50.390]  And we knew this was happening.
[42:50.510 --> 42:52.990]  This was three days before DEFCON 4.
[42:53.650 --> 42:55.890]  So, I'd never met the prophet in person at this point.
[42:56.050 --> 42:56.810]  We all go into...
[42:56.810 --> 42:59.590]  I don't know about these guys, but I went into complete f*cking panic mode.
[42:59.690 --> 43:01.250]  I'm not going to lie, I was absolutely terrified.
[43:01.550 --> 43:05.450]  It was really scary to think, like, these guys, I've been doing things that are clearly wrong.
[43:05.690 --> 43:07.170]  I wasn't stealing from people.
[43:07.270 --> 43:08.430]  I wasn't doing credit card fraud.
[43:08.550 --> 43:11.010]  I was actually, on the scale of things, kind of okay.
[43:11.010 --> 43:12.450]  But I had done some things.
[43:13.050 --> 43:14.190]  And these guys were coming to get me.
[43:14.310 --> 43:15.010]  They knew where I lived.
[43:15.330 --> 43:20.650]  My brother called me and said, there's, like, old men taking photos of our house from a Ford.
[43:20.890 --> 43:22.010]  And I said, well, yeah.
[43:23.010 --> 43:26.150]  So, we all go to DEFCON 4, completely paranoid.
[43:26.890 --> 43:33.670]  Get in a rental van, drive to the middle of the desert, and essentially have this frank conversation, saying, like, okay, what do we all need to know?
[43:33.790 --> 43:36.590]  Because we've been incredibly vague over the phone for the past couple weeks.
[43:36.710 --> 43:37.210]  We've been paranoid.
[43:37.350 --> 43:38.290]  Kind of get our story straight.
[43:38.290 --> 43:39.490]  Go back home.
[43:39.670 --> 43:40.650]  I get back to Sacramento.
[43:41.310 --> 43:45.490]  And a week later, they literally came through the windows at my parents' house.
[43:45.610 --> 43:46.130]  I wasn't there.
[43:46.230 --> 43:48.150]  I was on my way to a 2600 meeting.
[43:49.310 --> 43:49.670]  And...
[43:50.470 --> 43:52.530]  If they knew what they were doing, they would have just gone there.
[43:52.630 --> 43:54.190]  They pulled my mom out of the shower.
[43:54.330 --> 43:56.050]  It was totally over the top.
[43:56.230 --> 43:59.710]  And this is so funny that I can't even believe it actually happened.
[43:59.710 --> 44:02.570]  My brother is sitting on the computer in the house.
[44:02.710 --> 44:05.390]  And he's playing Police Quest.
[44:06.650 --> 44:07.050]  Right?
[44:07.390 --> 44:08.230]  It gets better.
[44:08.450 --> 44:08.910]  It gets better.
[44:09.950 --> 44:11.090]  And they bust in.
[44:11.150 --> 44:12.090]  They didn't know what I look like.
[44:12.170 --> 44:13.030]  I don't know how that's possible.
[44:13.170 --> 44:13.810]  But they didn't know what I look like.
[44:13.930 --> 44:14.270]  And they...
[44:14.270 --> 44:16.470]  Mike Menz, this detective, has his weapon.
[44:16.630 --> 44:17.930]  My brother's three years younger than me.
[44:17.950 --> 44:18.790]  And he says, freeze, Matt.
[44:19.010 --> 44:20.710]  And my brother's f*cking brilliant.
[44:20.750 --> 44:22.350]  He just goes, I'm not Matt.
[44:23.510 --> 44:25.030]  And he walked out of the room.
[44:25.810 --> 44:26.170]  Like...
[44:26.590 --> 44:26.950]  Nice.
[44:28.850 --> 44:29.470]  No, hold on.
[44:29.590 --> 44:29.730]  Hold on.
[44:30.190 --> 44:30.510]  So...
[44:32.170 --> 44:32.890]  So the...
[44:32.890 --> 44:33.770]  No, not my brother.
[44:33.890 --> 44:35.090]  The cop walks out of the room.
[44:35.210 --> 44:36.710]  Leaving my brother at the keyboard.
[44:37.610 --> 44:39.710]  And I'm thinking, that's f*cking brilliant.
[44:39.890 --> 44:40.510]  You could just like...
[44:40.510 --> 44:42.350]  Next time I get busted, I'm just like, I'm not Matt.
[44:42.570 --> 44:43.570]  Delete everything.
[44:44.370 --> 44:45.270]  F*cking smash it.
[44:45.490 --> 44:47.050]  I couldn't believe it.
[44:47.170 --> 44:47.990]  So they go into my room.
[44:48.150 --> 44:52.250]  And in my room, of course, they found my case open with IDE cables hanging there.
[44:52.390 --> 44:54.950]  Because the week before, I threw my hard drives in the goddamn lake.
[44:55.030 --> 44:56.210]  You know, because I thought they were coming.
[44:56.350 --> 44:57.510]  So I'd thrown everything out.
[44:57.810 --> 44:59.850]  And, you know, they did get some stuff on me.
[44:59.930 --> 45:00.890]  And eventually I was prosecuted.
[45:01.030 --> 45:06.570]  But what we'd agreed to before this, and I'll hurry up here, is that we had a phone tree in Sacramento.
[45:06.790 --> 45:09.330]  We'd all agreed that if somebody got busted, we'd call the next...
[45:09.330 --> 45:11.550]  It was seriously like out of a stupid movie.
[45:11.650 --> 45:12.790]  We said, oh, we'll call the next guy.
[45:12.890 --> 45:13.870]  And you say a stupid phrase.
[45:14.050 --> 45:14.710]  And I'll know.
[45:14.950 --> 45:17.570]  And the phrase, and I swear to God, I've never said this in public.
[45:17.730 --> 45:18.990]  And I can't believe I'm about to say it on stage.
[45:19.210 --> 45:23.910]  The phrase, which we thought was totally brilliant, was, how are your mother's flowers?
[45:25.030 --> 45:28.830]  You know, totally inconspicuous if you call someone and say that, right?
[45:29.730 --> 45:31.570]  So I actually did.
[45:31.690 --> 45:33.650]  And this is, to be fair, it worked.
[45:33.790 --> 45:36.270]  I called my buddy Pegasus, who was in the scene.
[45:36.390 --> 45:37.450]  I said, hey, man, how you doing?
[45:37.550 --> 45:38.390]  He said, hey, what's going on?
[45:38.470 --> 45:38.970]  I said, what's new?
[45:39.030 --> 45:40.370]  I didn't see you, you know, thing last night.
[45:40.510 --> 45:42.650]  I said, yeah, man, how are your mother's flowers?
[45:42.810 --> 45:44.130]  And he just goes silent.
[45:44.390 --> 45:45.710]  Because we'd never joked about it.
[45:45.850 --> 45:47.470]  And he goes, they're all right, man.
[45:47.470 --> 45:48.170]  Hey, I got to go.
[45:52.290 --> 45:55.950]  And to be totally serious, that it actually worked.
[45:56.110 --> 45:58.710]  It was the end of the BBS scene in Sacramento that day.
[45:58.810 --> 46:00.090]  I mean, to obviously to an extent.
[46:00.350 --> 46:01.410]  That he called all the other...
[46:01.410 --> 46:02.930]  It was very BBS heavy at the time.
[46:03.030 --> 46:04.470]  He called all the other BBS operators.
[46:04.610 --> 46:05.310]  And everybody called everybody.
[46:05.750 --> 46:13.690]  And like 15 major, major for Northern California, like, you know, hacker BBSes went down that day and never came back up.
[46:13.790 --> 46:15.970]  And those guys put their computers in their car and they left.
[46:16.290 --> 46:28.450]  And so I brought a cassette tape thingy to my interrogation, which I was interrogated at a pizza parlor without a lawyer present, to which I instantly responded to everything with, you know, I plead the fifth, I'm not talking to you, pricks, blah, blah,
[46:28.450 --> 46:28.770]  blah, blah, blah.
[46:28.930 --> 46:32.650]  And I tape recorded everything because I wanted everybody to know that I wasn't going to rat them out.
[46:32.770 --> 46:33.730]  And I didn't.
[46:33.830 --> 46:34.910]  And I didn't say anything.
[46:34.910 --> 46:37.170]  And the Sacramento busts stopped at me.
[46:37.450 --> 46:44.510]  But before this had happened, they basically, over the past several years, busted pretty much all of us for something.
[46:45.050 --> 46:51.770]  And so we had this Sacramento to the Wayslake Center group, which, with all these people in it, and we had, like, PerpCon got busted for the Tower Records thing and went down for a year.
[46:51.890 --> 46:53.050]  And Josh was in federal prison.
[46:53.210 --> 46:54.990]  Everybody was, everybody was getting busted.
[46:55.230 --> 46:57.350]  Magnate was gone, which nobody cared about.
[46:58.310 --> 47:02.690]  And, and we all thought, you know, this is, can't, this can't go on like this.
[47:02.830 --> 47:06.170]  But it was, it was a characteristic of something that doesn't exist anymore.
[47:06.510 --> 47:08.150]  They looked at us as the bad guys.
[47:08.370 --> 47:10.690]  And we looked at them as the bad guys, so to speak.
[47:10.690 --> 47:12.650]  Like, we were, had an adversarial relationship.
[47:12.950 --> 47:17.810]  And that is a generation of hackers that, that existed in that time frame.
[47:18.330 --> 47:31.110]  That if you, if you, if you came into the scene, and I'm not trying to say this in a negative way, but for people that entered the scene, and at that time, the relationship with the government, with the feds, with the cops, so to speak, wasn't this, in this adversarial manner.
[47:31.690 --> 47:35.850]  You, there was a segment, there was a way that we thought back then that just doesn't exist anymore.
[47:35.850 --> 47:38.010]  And it's, it is very positive now.
[47:38.130 --> 47:39.950]  And I'm very happy that the things are like they are.
[47:40.270 --> 47:43.990]  But if you weren't there for that, it's really difficult to understand what that was like.
[47:44.170 --> 47:47.370]  Because you were talking about judges who didn't understand what email was.
[47:47.570 --> 47:48.730]  Your parents didn't have email address.
[47:48.930 --> 47:50.630]  Nobody understood when you went into court.
[47:50.710 --> 47:54.490]  When I went into court, and I've got a, you know, I'm trying to explain this stuff to the court.
[47:54.630 --> 47:57.830]  Because they were, the court, to be honest, was very cool with me trying to let me tell my own story.
[47:57.830 --> 48:00.290]  It's kind of like, well, so what did you do?
[48:00.710 --> 48:05.770]  Yeah, they, and they, they were asking us, as opposed to the prosecution sometimes, like, what we've done.
[48:06.130 --> 48:09.330]  The district attorney had walk-in orders to get me on three felonies and misdemeanor.
[48:09.550 --> 48:13.670]  I was supposed to be in jail until I was 18 and on no computers until I was 21 or something like that.
[48:13.730 --> 48:16.370]  And I walked, I was f*cking terrified about this.
[48:16.570 --> 48:19.890]  Literally, absolutely terrified, shaking in my shoes, completely scared.
[48:20.270 --> 48:29.170]  And by the time I got in there and I started to kind of walk them all through what was really going on, I swear to God, before I walked out of that room, first of all, I got off with one misdemeanor and 50 hours of community service.
[48:29.510 --> 48:29.810]  True.
[48:32.150 --> 48:32.470]  Yeah.
[48:32.930 --> 48:39.190]  But, but, which the district attorney was slightly less than pleased about.
[48:39.730 --> 48:44.170]  But the bailiff, like, turned over to me and he's sitting to my side like this and he leans over and goes, psst.
[48:45.210 --> 48:47.390]  I literally, I'm not even sure if I'm supposed to look at him.
[48:47.450 --> 48:50.410]  So I look at him, like, and he's like, do you know anything about AOL?
[48:51.690 --> 48:52.010]  Yes.
[48:53.070 --> 48:56.710]  And I, and I, and I said, I looked at my lawyer, and my lawyer's like, I don't know.
[48:57.110 --> 48:58.590]  And so, so I said, yeah.
[48:58.670 --> 49:01.210]  He's like, cause mine's totally f*cked up.
[49:01.310 --> 49:01.810]  Can you come to me?
[49:03.090 --> 49:08.070]  Can you, can you, can you, can you like, can you tell me how to fix it?
[49:08.110 --> 49:10.250]  And I'm like, f*ck yeah, I can tell you how to fix it.
[49:12.110 --> 49:13.270]  Like, I'll come over to your house.
[49:13.370 --> 49:13.930]  What do you want me to do?
[49:13.930 --> 49:15.330]  Just get me the hell out of here.
[49:16.990 --> 49:27.590]  And, but you know, fast-forward a couple of years, you know, one thing I did want to clarify about what the, what the prophet was saying is that there's a couple of things that you never do ever, ever, ever, ever, ever.
[49:27.710 --> 49:31.330]  You never, ever, ever screw with emergency services doing brand calls ever.
[49:31.490 --> 49:32.270]  Never screw with 911.
[49:32.590 --> 49:33.550]  Never screw with poison control.
[49:33.550 --> 49:34.550]  Never do anything.
[49:36.390 --> 49:40.750]  And, and actually that segues really nicely into, into the present day.
[49:40.870 --> 49:42.770]  That segues right into Magnate.
[49:42.870 --> 49:45.190]  And I wanted to let this point go, cause he's the one that narked me out.
[49:45.310 --> 49:48.690]  So this is the guy that basically narked, I say narked me out, welcome to the third grade.
[49:48.910 --> 50:04.550]  So this is the guy that, that ratted me out to the cops and, and he, you might've seen on CNN a couple months ago, uh, that there was some people busted, this is the front page stuff for swatting, where you do this VoIP, you know, you use VoIP and you do this A&I spoofing and you get SWAT called to come to somebody's house.
[50:04.910 --> 50:15.050]  That guy on the front page of CNN, Jason Trowbridge, Magnate, the same guy that narked us out about, about three, four weeks ago, he just got sentenced to 16 months in the federal prison.
[50:15.750 --> 50:15.890]  Yeah.
[50:19.010 --> 50:32.470]  So, uh, this is our last slide and I'm being, uh, being asked to wrap up very quickly, but, uh, fast-forward to today, cops, they're a dime a dozen, long distance is effectively free and we still use them, um, because it's still a social thing.
[50:32.470 --> 50:43.610]  Uh, a lot of VoIP freaks hang out on, uh, the telephreak.org conf and, uh, you know, if any of you are interested, uh, in, in, uh, VoIP, that's a great place to get information and kind of hang out with us.
[50:44.110 --> 50:55.530]  Um, but, there's a dark side to VoIP and that is that it's a very new technology, there's, it's very easy to gain access to SS7 and do all sorts of really nasty shenanigans like swatting.
[50:55.910 --> 50:58.490]  And, uh, do all of you know what swatting is?
[50:59.170 --> 50:59.590]  Yes?
[50:59.770 --> 50:59.890]  No?
[50:59.890 --> 51:00.530]  Okay.
[51:00.810 --> 51:04.310]  Well, the, I'll give you a really quick, quick nutshell of swatting.
[51:04.510 --> 51:09.790]  Effectively, when you call 911, your ANI, which is your phone number, gets transmitted to the PSAP.
[51:10.010 --> 51:14.790]  And I wrote a very, very detailed article about this, I think, two issues ago in 2600.
[51:14.910 --> 51:16.630]  I write the telecom informer column, by the way.
[51:17.070 --> 51:19.570]  Um, so, go pick up the issue if you're interested in this.
[51:19.770 --> 51:34.890]  But, effectively, if you call up, um, and you're using a certain, certain set of VoIP services, you can spoof somebody's ANI and make a 911 PSAP think that some hostage situation is going down at somebody's house.
[51:35.110 --> 51:43.650]  And they'll respond with, you know, armed cops and a helicopter, and all the things that you would hope that the police would do if somebody were holding you hostage in your home and they were armed and crazy.
[51:44.370 --> 51:51.770]  Um, and you know, people very easily, if you pull this kind of stunt, could, uh, could be killed and, you know, they'd be entirely innocent.
[51:52.130 --> 51:56.470]  So, Magnate, the guy's 29 years old, and he's still doing this shit.
[51:56.850 --> 52:02.170]  And, uh, so, he got in, in with a couple of, uh, you know, younger hacker, uh, younger freaks, rather.
[52:02.530 --> 52:04.150]  They started pulling these kind of stunts.
[52:04.370 --> 52:07.190]  And, uh, you know, that's the thing that you deserve to go to jail for.
[52:07.330 --> 52:08.790]  Like, five years isn't long enough for that guy.
[52:08.810 --> 52:08.810]  Absolutely.
[52:09.050 --> 52:09.130]  Yeah.
[52:09.610 --> 52:10.690]  All right, I think we're done.
[52:10.790 --> 52:17.510]  And, uh, next up, there's a, uh, social engineering panel of some kind, which, uh, I think will be a lot of fun.
[52:17.690 --> 52:17.850]  Stick around.
[52:17.850 --> 52:19.870]  The, we got, uh, Emanuel and Mitnick in on it.
[52:20.090 --> 52:20.890]  So, uh, stay tuned.
[52:21.070 --> 52:21.410]  Thanks.
[52:32.550 --> 52:34.730]  Just a, just a quick reminder.
[52:34.730 --> 52:38.650]  We don't have any, uh, paid people that pick up after everybody.
[52:38.650 --> 52:49.350]  So if you could take your beer bottles and your forties and your, your various caffeinated beverage and beverages and make sure to put them in the trash cans, that would be greatly appreciated.
[52:49.850 --> 52:51.810]  Uh, social engineering is next.
[53:00.440 --> 53:00.980]  Do you know what it works for me?
[53:01.080 --> 53:01.760]  What do you think you want?
[53:01.940 --> 53:02.340]  Oh, that's right.
[53:02.360 --> 53:02.480]  What do you think you wanna say?