[00:37.990 --> 00:43.230]  We are going to have, it looks like, a possibility this is going to happen.
[00:44.170 --> 00:45.410]  Phiber Optik is in prison.
[00:45.570 --> 00:47.110]  He's trying to reach us right now.
[00:47.530 --> 00:52.550]  It's very difficult when you're in prison to reach people, especially when you don't have a problem from the phone service.
[00:53.250 --> 00:55.510]  So, if that happens, we'll be breaking hand to hand.
[00:55.870 --> 01:02.950]  So, we'll keep you posted on that, but that should happen sometime before midnight.
[01:03.930 --> 01:09.950]  Right now, the European hackers are here, and it's a real privilege and a pleasure to welcome them to this country.
[01:10.810 --> 01:19.910]  I'll let them all introduce themselves and answer any questions you might have from European hacker publications, European hackers, all kinds of other things.
[01:20.850 --> 01:21.670]  Let's welcome them.
[01:28.480 --> 01:34.320]  Okay, my name is Stefan Beniri, and I am...
[01:34.320 --> 01:35.720]  I am LA.
[01:36.360 --> 01:40.560]  My name is Gonggrijp, and they are all from Chaos Computer Club.
[01:41.160 --> 01:45.480]  It was out of Hamburg, but now some people are from Berlin and everywhere.
[01:45.480 --> 01:48.220]  And I'm from Amsterdam for a hectic space.
[01:48.540 --> 01:58.360]  So, yes, I want to start with a show for $18,000 around about it.
[01:58.940 --> 02:01.500]  And it was given a great press activity.
[02:01.820 --> 02:04.140]  It was the end of the awful year.
[02:04.580 --> 02:09.400]  All newspapers looking for it, and the people didn't understand what we want.
[02:09.400 --> 02:15.120]  But the next days, the people are running to the computer shops and buying modems and acoustical.
[02:15.680 --> 02:23.040]  They all want to be a billionaire, and so the activity is going on.
[02:24.200 --> 02:27.560]  We have no law and order at that time.
[02:29.900 --> 02:34.240]  And there are three groups of hackers at this time in Germany.
[02:34.520 --> 02:37.480]  They are the technical interest people who want to play.
[02:37.960 --> 02:39.820]  The computer wants to learn.
[02:40.060 --> 02:45.060]  It was a real adventure to go into the world without time slip.
[02:46.900 --> 02:59.040]  The other group was a group of people who want to build own networks for public use, for political use, to change databases with information against the government.
[03:00.040 --> 03:09.240]  And the third part of people was political people who think that we as hackers are learning at the first what's happened in the world.
[03:09.900 --> 03:19.580]  And it's a social priority to give this information to other people so that we can all learn from that what's good is and what is bad.
[03:20.420 --> 03:25.240]  That was the best year of hacking, or social engineering time.
[03:25.660 --> 03:32.300]  So at this time you can, or you have to call if you want a password, you can call the owner of the password.
[03:32.660 --> 03:35.680]  So I told him, oh, this is a great destroying of data.
[03:36.020 --> 03:40.640]  And I have to give you a new password, so please send me your new password.
[03:41.580 --> 03:43.640]  Yes, okay, I put this into the list.
[03:43.800 --> 03:48.700]  But I wanted to recover the data, so can you send your old password too?
[03:48.700 --> 04:00.460]  And then you use the old password going into the computer, put in the new password, and the legal user is going into the computer and change the new password to the old.
[04:00.600 --> 04:03.740]  And you can use the computer for free, long time.
[04:03.960 --> 04:04.980]  Nobody knows it.
[04:06.480 --> 04:11.320]  So at this time too, a lot of people are hacking Vax system.
[04:11.320 --> 04:15.640]  So Vax system is an open technology, hackers like it.
[04:15.840 --> 04:20.180]  So they're playing a nice game in Cuba in 1985.
[04:20.880 --> 04:25.320]  There are 30 hackers going into the computer and drop out the other hackers.
[04:26.320 --> 04:28.120]  And the legal users too.
[04:28.780 --> 04:33.540]  And for the user, the hacker who's the last into the system, have to win the game.
[04:33.540 --> 04:46.960]  In 1986, we built a group to write a paper for the German government for social working with computers for government.
[04:46.960 --> 04:47.900]  And it was...
[04:51.100 --> 05:04.340]  We got a research grant to do some study on how computers could be used, socially acceptable in the work of the parliament.
[05:05.140 --> 05:10.240]  And how to improve on the working structures of the parliament by using computer networks.
[05:11.660 --> 05:17.500]  So in this same year, we make a public forum about computer viruses.
[05:17.700 --> 05:20.280]  The first public forum about computer viruses.
[05:20.560 --> 05:23.140]  We explain how computer viruses works.
[05:23.240 --> 05:28.020]  But we think about if we give the people a way to build logical bombs.
[05:28.320 --> 05:31.340]  And it's okay to give this information to all people.
[05:31.480 --> 05:33.160]  We have a long discussion about it.
[05:33.160 --> 05:40.520]  But we think at this time that it's better we discuss our problems open.
[05:40.740 --> 05:43.220]  So that we can all learn from them.
[05:43.780 --> 05:48.040]  And not to go in the dark or to... don't talk about it.
[05:48.200 --> 05:56.340]  So we have only one chance to take all information, to reflect this information and give the impressions back we have.
[05:57.280 --> 05:59.040]  It's the same year in 1986.
[05:59.040 --> 06:05.920]  We get a law and order for hacking like computer crime in Germany.
[06:06.260 --> 06:12.000]  And at the same time we make for the Chaos Computer Club to a registrated organization.
[06:12.440 --> 06:15.480]  In Germany we have a very nice law.
[06:15.820 --> 06:19.760]  It means that you can found a fine.
[06:20.380 --> 06:21.980]  People going inside.
[06:22.420 --> 06:24.580]  And it's protected under special law.
[06:24.900 --> 06:26.720]  So you have a lot of rights.
[06:26.720 --> 06:28.100]  You can do a lot of things.
[06:28.460 --> 06:33.420]  And the government can't catch single people to criminalize them.
[06:33.580 --> 06:37.760]  They have first to go to the... to the registrated organization.
[06:37.760 --> 06:43.280]  So 1987 there was the NASA hack.
[06:43.460 --> 06:47.960]  NASA hack was... was a part where 130...
[06:47.960 --> 06:51.740]  about 130 computers will... in... in the span net...
[06:51.740 --> 06:54.300]  will... hacked by a Trojan horse.
[06:55.380 --> 06:58.980]  A group called Wexbusters is going into the systems.
[06:58.980 --> 07:01.980]  And put out all passwords.
[07:02.360 --> 07:04.140]  Install a general password.
[07:04.620 --> 07:06.460]  Read secret information.
[07:07.060 --> 07:09.900]  And make them so that nobody can see that.
[07:10.420 --> 07:13.700]  But that was a time that was forbidden.
[07:14.180 --> 07:17.320]  And so the people came to us there a little bit...
[07:17.320 --> 07:18.820]  Yes, problems.
[07:19.180 --> 07:24.080]  While it was a lot of systems around the world with nuclear information.
[07:24.080 --> 07:27.080]  Biological information too.
[07:27.860 --> 07:30.720]  Yes, and then we... we think we have to publicate it.
[07:31.620 --> 07:35.360]  And that was a... one... one of the best social hacks we've done.
[07:35.680 --> 07:39.400]  To publicate a story on one day about the whole world.
[07:40.080 --> 07:44.080]  Normally it's so... a journalist wants to have one or three different...
[07:46.240 --> 07:49.720]  sources of information if you believe a story.
[07:49.720 --> 07:55.010]  And so we give the information on different ways to so much people.
[07:55.520 --> 07:57.740]  The doll printed it in one day.
[07:58.220 --> 08:00.700]  And nobody asked what's happened later.
[08:02.140 --> 08:03.880]  But later comes the police.
[08:04.160 --> 08:04.900]  Four weeks later.
[08:05.520 --> 08:09.300]  The police started the investigation with a lot of home visits.
[08:09.720 --> 08:14.420]  So at Meijer Park there was 27 police people from around the world.
[08:14.520 --> 08:15.480]  From France people.
[08:15.860 --> 08:18.800]  And... and they are coming in the evening.
[08:18.800 --> 08:24.640]  And it was... it was very nice that we... we get it to transmit it in television live.
[08:25.080 --> 08:29.200]  So all hackers in Germany can see it in television in live.
[08:29.520 --> 08:32.460]  And then they clean up their desk and their computer.
[08:34.880 --> 08:41.320]  So at this time police is looking in 44 countries against members of the Chaos Computer Club.
[08:41.320 --> 08:44.660]  And we didn't know what's happened exactly.
[08:45.400 --> 08:48.660]  We... we... we learned later what's happened.
[08:48.960 --> 08:50.660]  In 1988.
[08:51.640 --> 09:00.500]  I drive to France to hold the opening speech of Securicom, a security conference.
[09:00.500 --> 09:02.000]  But I didn't...
[09:03.260 --> 09:05.200]  Receive... didn't... came there.
[09:05.420 --> 09:09.080]  The... while... at the airport the France police was...
[09:09.080 --> 09:10.720]  Catch me and...
[09:10.720 --> 09:13.980]  Then I go for 66 days in prison in France.
[09:13.980 --> 09:17.180]  They wanted information for me.
[09:17.460 --> 09:21.140]  Why people hacking a cement factory?
[09:21.540 --> 09:24.760]  You know why people hacking a second cement factory?
[09:25.260 --> 09:26.040]  Why?
[09:26.140 --> 09:27.560]  Why they need it for shelters.
[09:27.780 --> 09:29.700]  Cement is very important for shelters.
[09:29.960 --> 09:32.980]  And they're hacking nuclear laboratories.
[09:33.520 --> 09:43.880]  And, of course, looking by Philips and Thomson Brandt into the production of gallium arsenic chips for the military use that people didn't like.
[09:44.560 --> 09:52.280]  So, after 66 days, they leave me gone while they can't prove what they want, what they have.
[09:53.760 --> 09:58.880]  And it's so that, in all countries, the police activities will be closed.
[09:58.880 --> 10:02.280]  But I can't drive to France since 1988.
[10:03.120 --> 10:06.020]  If they close the paper, they have to pay for the two months.
[10:06.180 --> 10:08.260]  And that will be a problem, too.
[10:09.520 --> 10:14.820]  So, in the same time, I was imprisoned to journalists of a U.S.
[10:14.960 --> 10:23.260]  radio station, going into the hacker scene, looking for some people, and hanging over to find some...
[10:23.260 --> 10:24.220]  It's called the names of the hackers.
[10:24.220 --> 10:27.640]  The names is Karl Koch, the new name is Hegbarth's line.
[10:28.220 --> 10:34.240]  He wants to talk to him that he goes to the Secret Service, opening all his information.
[10:34.600 --> 10:36.240]  But they didn't want.
[10:36.720 --> 10:45.200]  But the story behind it is that these two journalists are working for the German Secret Service, too.
[10:46.180 --> 10:52.280]  And in 1989, so there will be a final collapse of the story.
[10:52.660 --> 11:01.020]  In spring 1989, the German police will public that they have found a group of hackers.
[11:01.140 --> 11:08.220]  They're working for the KGB and it was friends of us who was there, but we didn't know it.
[11:08.220 --> 11:17.860]  So there was a lot of activity into the networks from 1984 to 87, 88, and we didn't know exactly what's happened.
[11:18.000 --> 11:20.460]  We have read it in the police papers later too.
[11:20.740 --> 11:26.160]  But if you know your best friend is working for the KGB, it's a big surprise for you too.
[11:26.160 --> 11:38.880]  And yes, these two journalists from the U.S. radio station wanted to make a big story about this hacking for the KGB.
[11:38.880 --> 11:49.960]  But there was coming that one day in May, the people found Karl Koch in the wood, burned himself, is the official way.
[11:50.680 --> 12:05.560]  But we have a lot of... we didn't believe it, so there are a lot of information that they want to publicate a great hacking story at the same time as Michael Gorbachev comes to Germany.
[12:06.540 --> 12:11.860]  So the East Germans want to be free from the Russians and their own politics.
[12:12.040 --> 12:12.760]  We think so.
[12:12.880 --> 12:13.660]  I think so.
[12:13.760 --> 12:14.620]  I can't prove it.
[12:14.780 --> 12:24.740]  But there are a lot of background information that's possible that this was a political attack, that the story was going under the table.
[12:26.040 --> 12:40.420]  So just before we have the program that we get information that one of the members of the Chaos Computer Club was inspired by the German Secret Service 2.
[12:40.740 --> 12:44.600]  And this gives a lot of paranoia into the Chaos Computer Club.
[12:44.760 --> 12:46.020]  Nobody trusts the other.
[12:46.340 --> 12:53.620]  It will be a great program for us, so we have made five years that we can work now.
[12:53.620 --> 12:57.780]  And today it's so that we have the trust problem, too, by somebody.
[12:58.020 --> 13:12.060]  It will change the whole work of Chaos Computer Club, while we have a lot of social problems after the attacks from Secret Services and after the death of Karl Koch.
[13:13.520 --> 13:16.460]  And, okay, the story goes on.
[13:16.960 --> 13:21.240]  1989, the German Wall is falling down.
[13:21.520 --> 13:26.760]  And in the spring of 1990, we make the first Congress in East Berlin.
[13:27.560 --> 13:39.080]  Later, Germany was unified, and it's the same way the US police list to catch people was cleared up.
[13:39.080 --> 13:46.600]  So since 1990, it's possible that Chaos members can drive to New York or to the US.
[13:46.760 --> 13:53.740]  It's the first time I've tested out here, and you see it's no problem now to travel to New York.
[13:53.740 --> 13:58.220]  In 1991, it was not the same.
[13:58.420 --> 14:04.680]  The Chaos Computer Club was paralyzed by the police activities, by the social followings we have.
[14:05.400 --> 14:20.480]  And so, first in 1992, we get the feeling back that we are a family, but we don't want to talk so in public about the things we do.
[14:20.480 --> 14:26.880]  The people hack, use, have fun, but don't want to give the information to public.
[14:27.100 --> 14:30.880]  It's very... a little bit paranoid inside.
[14:31.380 --> 14:42.280]  And it has any time that we find the old way to work, that we discuss, open the programs, change information, and we give information to the press, too.
[14:44.740 --> 15:01.800]  So, for the future, a short look for the future, or what's that, what's the feeling of us is that, so long as technical development is going on, hackers have a great adventure to learn.
[15:02.360 --> 15:10.620]  Hackers are the people who learn at first what new technology will bring and good and bad things.
[15:10.620 --> 15:23.920]  And it's a social... public... it's a public responsibility to give this information to other people, so that we can learn to... to build a better world in this way.
[15:25.420 --> 15:39.820]  We have also learned that... that we have only one protection against secret services, and that's... that's... that's public... working to give a lot of information to public, that... that the people know what's happened.
[15:40.080 --> 15:42.480]  And the first time it was very different.
[15:42.880 --> 15:48.280]  People all liking what we do, but everybody has a different way why we like it.
[15:48.340 --> 16:04.620]  People like the case computer globally didn't like computers, or they are afraid against computers, or... say... they... they like the feeling of David against Goliath, so that we are... with very little group make so much activities.
[16:05.780 --> 16:12.500]  But the... the... the ground behind is that... we as CCC never have given...
[16:12.500 --> 16:17.280]  um... wrong informations to the newspapers or to public.
[16:17.540 --> 16:21.800]  And so the CCC today is a... a knowledge organization.
[16:22.160 --> 16:24.540]  The people ask us if they have problems.
[16:24.540 --> 16:28.320]  So a lot of people coming to us who have consumer problems.
[16:28.500 --> 16:29.940]  The telephone bill is too high.
[16:30.060 --> 16:32.920]  They have problems with their credit card, or the bank card, or so.
[16:33.040 --> 16:37.200]  And if there is nobody... uh... who can help them, then they ask...
[16:37.200 --> 16:43.500]  and call in the number of the case computer clubs, who we are the last address for the social technical programs.
[16:44.700 --> 16:49.520]  And... sometimes we can help, or we give a lawyer... they can help.
[16:51.120 --> 16:55.260]  So... the last... the things I can say for me is...
[16:55.260 --> 16:59.300]  I have seen here a lot of people who has... into their brain...
[16:59.300 --> 17:01.840]  paranoia against secret services.
[17:02.160 --> 17:03.800]  And I think it's the wrong way.
[17:04.140 --> 17:08.920]  If you don't... if you want to work in the dark...
[17:08.920 --> 17:11.780]  you'll lost the game before you start.
[17:12.160 --> 17:14.880]  You have to work public, and you have...
[17:14.880 --> 17:18.160]  give informations to the public that the people know what's happened.
[17:18.160 --> 17:21.240]  So... and if you're going, and every time you have...
[17:21.240 --> 17:24.340]  the paranoia against secret services into your brain...
[17:24.340 --> 17:25.740]  you will be ill and crazy.
[17:26.100 --> 17:26.800]  Forget it.
[17:26.860 --> 17:28.940]  It's not a very nice way to live.
[17:29.920 --> 17:30.500]  Okay.
[17:32.040 --> 17:33.160]  That's my part.
[17:39.680 --> 17:42.960]  I would like to say a few words about...
[17:42.960 --> 17:45.380]  the understanding of the case computer club.
[17:45.560 --> 17:48.220]  So... because... many... many people still think we are...
[17:48.220 --> 17:50.480]  some kind of just technical hacker group.
[17:50.480 --> 17:54.280]  Our magazine differs a lot from 2600.
[17:54.540 --> 17:58.340]  2600 is more a technical genre, I think, about...
[17:58.340 --> 18:01.620]  how tricks works, and how technology is working.
[18:02.160 --> 18:03.760]  That... we have too in our magazine.
[18:04.300 --> 18:05.480]  But... since 1986...
[18:06.440 --> 18:08.660]  since we have the law against computer things...
[18:09.040 --> 18:11.420]  going on in German... and hacking...
[18:11.420 --> 18:13.860]  we changed a little bit our position...
[18:13.860 --> 18:15.280]  from a hacker group...
[18:15.280 --> 18:16.800]  to some kind of a forum...
[18:16.800 --> 18:19.240]  where we distribute information about...
[18:19.240 --> 18:22.300]  risk and chances of information technology...
[18:22.300 --> 18:23.080]  the use of it.
[18:23.220 --> 18:25.140]  We have special reels...
[18:25.140 --> 18:25.800]  we say...
[18:25.800 --> 18:27.620]  information should be free...
[18:27.620 --> 18:29.320]  communication systems...
[18:29.320 --> 18:29.980]  should be accessible...
[18:30.560 --> 18:31.860]  for everyone...
[18:32.500 --> 18:33.020]  political...
[18:33.020 --> 18:33.780]  I mean...
[18:33.780 --> 18:36.180]  telecommunication prices are political prices...
[18:37.020 --> 18:38.340]  things like that...
[18:38.340 --> 18:39.880]  and so we are...
[18:39.880 --> 18:42.800]  I think a little bit more on the social aspects...
[18:42.800 --> 18:43.370]  of this technology...
[18:44.060 --> 18:44.940]  than on the technical.
[18:45.360 --> 18:46.400]  We of course...
[18:46.400 --> 18:47.650]  are always having...
[18:47.880 --> 18:49.340]  technical terms...
[18:49.340 --> 18:49.920]  how to...
[18:49.920 --> 18:51.440]  start a discussion...
[18:51.440 --> 18:52.200]  for example...
[18:52.200 --> 18:53.580]  last year...
[18:53.580 --> 18:53.900]  no...
[18:53.900 --> 18:55.240]  at the beginning of this year...
[18:55.240 --> 18:56.380]  there was a...
[18:56.380 --> 18:56.940]  the big...
[18:56.940 --> 18:58.220]  German exhibition...
[18:58.220 --> 18:58.940]  someone...
[18:58.940 --> 18:59.600]  a company...
[19:00.030 --> 19:00.380]  distributing...
[19:00.380 --> 19:01.840]  and giving CD-ROMs...
[19:01.840 --> 19:02.860]  for everyone...
[19:02.860 --> 19:04.100]  has a cryptid software...
[19:04.460 --> 19:04.780]  on it...
[19:04.780 --> 19:05.600]  and we found out...
[19:05.600 --> 19:06.520]  it's very easy...
[19:06.520 --> 19:06.840]  to...
[19:06.840 --> 19:07.780]  break that...
[19:07.780 --> 19:09.480]  CD-ROM disk...
[19:09.480 --> 19:10.580]  and get the...
[19:10.580 --> 19:11.140]  uh...
[19:11.560 --> 19:11.960]  software...
[19:11.960 --> 19:12.580]  decrypted...
[19:12.580 --> 19:13.580]  to everyone...
[19:13.580 --> 19:15.300]  who had the CD-ROM...
[19:15.300 --> 19:16.320]  but for free...
[19:16.320 --> 19:17.040]  And so...
[19:17.040 --> 19:17.280]  uh...
[19:17.280 --> 19:17.900]  we...
[19:17.900 --> 19:19.020]  used this...
[19:19.020 --> 19:19.600]  to...
[19:19.600 --> 19:20.240]  start...
[19:20.240 --> 19:20.840]  a discussion...
[19:20.840 --> 19:21.680]  about software...
[19:21.680 --> 19:22.280]  prices...
[19:22.280 --> 19:22.620]  about...
[19:22.620 --> 19:23.080]  uh...
[19:23.880 --> 19:24.680]  er...
[19:24.680 --> 19:25.820]  using...
[19:25.820 --> 19:26.100]  uh...
[19:26.100 --> 19:41.380]  software not only as a tool to earn money, but also as a tool maybe for a non-governmental organization or whatever, so that they can't pay the prices any company can to use something to produce something.
[19:42.080 --> 19:42.960]  Things like this.
[19:43.100 --> 19:50.020]  So maybe this explains a little bit what we are doing and what kind of attitudes we have.
[19:50.020 --> 20:01.080]  So since 1984, we make every year a congress in Hamburg like this, a little bit smaller, not so much people living around Hamburg.
[20:01.740 --> 20:09.000]  And we make it this year the 11th time, so you are welcome to come there and find information outside.
[20:09.380 --> 20:12.540]  We have put this little history into the HOPE Net.
[20:12.540 --> 20:15.340]  It can be reprinted in the 2600.
[20:15.340 --> 20:26.840]  And I only can say that since 1987, we are working with the Netherlands hackers very nearly and, yes, fine.
[20:27.680 --> 20:32.660]  The congress is always between Christmas and New Year's Day, so it's every year in Hamburg.
[20:34.440 --> 20:36.740]  If you have questions, ask them now.
[20:39.940 --> 20:42.160]  Yeah, I can go afterwards.
[20:44.580 --> 20:46.780]  I've been having access to the internet.
[20:49.000 --> 20:55.080]  Are you making any efforts to export hacker philosophy to some of the more recent block companies?
[20:55.900 --> 20:57.700]  Do you see any inroads there?
[20:58.260 --> 21:01.820]  Does it look like the hacker ethic is taking root?
[21:01.820 --> 21:06.980]  Yeah, we have, for example, I live in Berlin, in the east part of Berlin.
[21:07.160 --> 21:13.300]  And we have groups everywhere in Germany, not everywhere, but in lots of countries.
[21:13.480 --> 21:15.480]  They meet people just like 2600.
[21:15.480 --> 21:16.580]  We meet every week.
[21:17.240 --> 21:22.520]  And, of course, we have web pages and other information spread to the people.
[21:22.520 --> 21:28.900]  But I think the most network or thing we do is connecting people together.
[21:29.120 --> 21:35.080]  Not only in a technical sense, but in a sense of getting in touch with people who do special things.
[21:35.700 --> 21:40.460]  And using technology to do this, but the technology is not the network.
[21:40.640 --> 21:42.740]  The network is what the people have in their head.
[21:42.740 --> 21:49.580]  So, we say a computer is just a thing making structures stronger.
[21:50.620 --> 21:53.180]  And that's the thing we are working on.
[21:54.120 --> 22:01.930]  Do you think that there are hackers in America that have the same social data in the world?
[22:02.370 --> 22:03.270]  Oh, yes.
[22:04.650 --> 22:05.470]  Oh, yes.
[22:05.730 --> 22:12.010]  I think the chaos computer club itself is not a very homogenous group.
[22:12.350 --> 22:20.770]  We have people, like myself, that are not hackers in the sense hackers seen here.
[22:22.570 --> 22:28.010]  We have people that work in normal jobs and fairly normal companies.
[22:28.970 --> 22:32.970]  And using computers just like any other user.
[22:33.570 --> 22:41.110]  Then we have people that do projects that are between computer science and art.
[22:41.290 --> 22:42.650]  Like Christian over there, for example.
[22:44.010 --> 22:46.110]  That do new media art.
[22:46.870 --> 22:52.870]  Then we have people, students of all sorts, and so on.
[22:52.990 --> 22:56.970]  So, the group is not very homogenous.
[22:57.950 --> 23:11.830]  So, the general philosophy of the chaos computer club, I think, is somewhere between the 2600 or maybe the old tab magazine and the Electronic Frontier Foundation.
[23:12.030 --> 23:13.970]  Something in between.
[23:16.070 --> 23:21.430]  We concentrate at the moment, and there's changes as our people change.
[23:21.550 --> 23:24.090]  We are now more or less on the third generation.
[23:27.010 --> 23:33.170]  And at the moment, public use of information, freedom of information.
[23:33.170 --> 23:35.870]  We don't have a freedom of information act in Germany.
[23:36.250 --> 23:38.350]  But we are lobbying for that.
[23:38.990 --> 23:40.870]  That's one of the functions we do.
[23:41.570 --> 23:44.610]  We are sort of the voice of the hacker community.
[23:44.910 --> 23:45.330]  Yes.
[23:45.830 --> 23:46.930]  We publish a magazine.
[23:47.670 --> 23:51.250]  So, there are quite different things going on.
[23:53.610 --> 23:56.490]  Of course, the good old hacking still goes on.
[23:56.490 --> 24:04.450]  But it's not that publicity event anymore that it used to be, because of the change in the law.
[24:06.030 --> 24:13.490]  And very recently, we are very openly hacking in the Netherlands, for example.
[24:13.490 --> 24:19.050]  But also there, now, just now, they act there and got a law against it.
[24:19.990 --> 24:23.570]  So, another hole has been stuffed.
[24:26.190 --> 24:29.350]  Not all of us are leftists.
[24:29.510 --> 24:32.630]  We have some leftists there, people there.
[24:32.770 --> 24:35.570]  We have some, well, mainstream people there.
[24:36.610 --> 24:38.230]  I personally are fairly mainstream.
[24:40.550 --> 24:41.130]  Clearly.
[24:44.270 --> 24:45.890]  I think you are taking notes.
[24:46.150 --> 24:53.050]  We have a short, very short three pages list up of most people's set here before.
[24:53.810 --> 24:55.850]  So, I have a few copies of this.
[24:56.230 --> 24:58.010]  We don't have to take everything down.
[25:01.190 --> 25:03.470]  Unfortunately, the printer is not working as it should.
[25:03.530 --> 25:04.810]  So, we have only very few copies.
[25:07.370 --> 25:08.010]  Yes, please.
[25:08.010 --> 25:12.050]  Just to give you the idea of hacking in the size here.
[25:12.250 --> 25:14.490]  How many members do you have on that?
[25:15.330 --> 25:22.410]  We have about 250 registered members and about 1,000 subscribers of our magazine.
[25:22.610 --> 25:27.570]  But this does not say a lot about how many people there are.
[25:27.570 --> 25:31.550]  Because registered members does only mean they pay.
[25:32.170 --> 25:35.450]  It does not mean they really work at our club or whatever.
[25:36.070 --> 25:36.610]  I mean...
[25:38.450 --> 25:40.770]  500 and 700 people.
[25:40.770 --> 25:44.290]  And that's so the ground group of the family.
[25:49.120 --> 25:49.600]  Yeah.
[25:49.960 --> 25:52.800]  Do you think that American members are doing enough to raise money?
[26:02.550 --> 26:03.570]  I think...
[26:03.570 --> 26:04.010]  My way.
[26:04.690 --> 26:05.170]  Well...
[26:06.230 --> 26:06.710]  Um...
[26:06.710 --> 26:07.050]  Yeah.
[26:09.210 --> 26:10.090]  Which is...
[26:10.730 --> 26:13.230]  As far as I know, something in the same direction.
[26:13.970 --> 26:15.270]  Grading public concern.
[26:15.270 --> 26:16.230]  But, um...
[26:16.230 --> 26:18.650]  I think there could be more lobbying in this respect.
[26:18.650 --> 26:18.990]  Yes.
[26:19.490 --> 26:21.730]  I think there could be other aspects mentioned.
[26:21.930 --> 26:24.330]  For example, when you hear red, blue or whatever boxing.
[26:25.070 --> 26:26.450]  I see the American society.
[26:26.710 --> 26:29.850]  I see here many more poor people than I see in Germany.
[26:30.370 --> 26:35.370]  And I see here people that use red boxes, for example, really because they don't have the money.
[26:35.370 --> 26:37.210]  For us, it's more...
[26:37.210 --> 26:39.070]  Most of it is having fun.
[26:39.310 --> 26:41.910]  Not so much freaking because of having no money.
[26:42.350 --> 26:45.750]  And getting access to technology because it's not allowed out of the way.
[26:46.250 --> 26:54.870]  So I think there could be more discussion here, for example, why you use special tricks to use phones for free or for much cheaper.
[26:55.330 --> 26:59.570]  Because, I mean, there's a difference between animals and humans.
[26:59.730 --> 27:03.030]  And that's, humans can communicate in real other ways.
[27:05.910 --> 27:09.950]  What's the status of tagging or freeing in Russia?
[27:10.430 --> 27:11.690]  And also in the old Soviet Union.
[27:12.170 --> 27:13.270]  I think the Soviet Union.
[27:13.590 --> 27:15.610]  We don't have to agree with the time there.
[27:17.030 --> 27:19.390]  Will it be somebody from Russia?
[27:21.910 --> 27:22.750]  Not here.
[27:23.310 --> 27:24.350]  What's somebody from Russia?
[27:25.230 --> 27:32.990]  Well, in Russia, as you all know, the political situation sounded difficult.
[27:34.510 --> 27:46.370]  There's the declining power of the state, which is being replaced by increasing power of criminals.
[27:47.270 --> 27:56.810]  And from my job, I have some experience with what can happen in Russia, which you would normally not think is possible.
[27:56.810 --> 27:59.830]  But I'm working for a shipping company.
[28:00.150 --> 28:11.490]  And we currently have some 40 containers in a port in Russia where we cannot get accessible because the mafia, the Russian mafia denies the success of our property.
[28:11.490 --> 28:15.070]  And it just happens.
[28:15.890 --> 28:20.370]  And there's nobody to do anything against it.
[28:20.590 --> 28:27.850]  So, I think if I were somebody interested in technology in Russia, I would have other problems.
[28:28.090 --> 28:28.930]  And I'm deciding that.
[28:28.930 --> 28:30.610]  Are there any emerging networks?
[28:31.950 --> 28:32.550]  Yes.
[28:32.890 --> 28:35.370]  There are emerging networks.
[28:35.790 --> 28:42.110]  And there are quite a few signs in Russia connected to the internet since about three years it became possible.
[28:42.110 --> 28:46.670]  And it's increasingly possible to be connected to a network.
[28:46.830 --> 28:56.050]  Computer Surfers, for example, it's not a really hacky network, but anyway, they have success points in Russia and some other as well.
[28:56.430 --> 29:09.930]  But the point is, the average Russian person cannot afford a single hour on Computer Surfers because one hour on Computer Surfers says is around a key day's wage in cost.
[29:10.130 --> 29:12.050]  So, it's not really popular.
[29:12.410 --> 29:21.950]  Also, Russia is waiting for its first home place though because the whole box system is in that old, waiting to be hacked.
[29:24.210 --> 29:26.150]  So, is there any one day where you should go?
[29:26.430 --> 29:27.850]  The paid inside of the home?
[29:28.070 --> 29:29.090]  No, you don't need to.
[29:29.190 --> 29:30.350]  It's so old.
[29:30.590 --> 29:31.430]  Where's the country go?
[29:31.970 --> 29:32.490]  Sorry?
[29:34.370 --> 29:41.130]  Oh, I've watched a small part of the Soviet, the Russian phone system, it's falling apart.
[29:41.290 --> 29:41.930]  It's like this hotel.
[29:49.790 --> 29:50.990]  It's like this hotel.
[29:51.190 --> 29:53.430]  The wiring in this hotel reminded me so much of Moscow.
[29:53.790 --> 29:53.870]  Sorry.
[29:56.170 --> 30:03.930]  But the Russian phone system is, it's all step-by-step stretches, wiring boxes off the street with the doors hanging on.
[30:03.930 --> 30:06.130]  off the train coming to the switches.
[30:06.530 --> 30:07.150]  It's incredible.
[30:15.480 --> 30:16.900]  Any more questions for them?
[30:17.140 --> 30:18.600]  Or should I talk about what we do?
[30:31.540 --> 30:33.420]  We do it since ten years.
[30:33.880 --> 30:37.140]  And on the first day all computers are connected and are running.
[30:37.480 --> 30:38.980]  Everything works fine.
[30:39.860 --> 30:42.680]  We have no delays in our programs.
[30:44.880 --> 30:46.340]  Almost no delays.
[30:51.300 --> 30:54.740]  We have more people.
[30:55.120 --> 30:56.320]  They talk political.
[30:56.660 --> 30:57.900]  I think political is here.
[30:58.120 --> 31:00.800]  It's not so much technical people.
[31:01.180 --> 31:03.600]  But we have a lot of technical people too.
[31:04.580 --> 31:08.720]  And in Germany you can smoke what you want on the Hacker Congress.
[31:08.720 --> 31:08.740]  It's not so much.
[31:09.100 --> 31:10.160]  It's not so much.
[31:11.480 --> 31:12.120]  It's not so much.
[31:12.120 --> 31:18.740]  Well, another point of view, the main difference is, first of all, it's all in German.
[31:21.880 --> 31:24.660]  Although there are lots of English-speaking people around.
[31:26.320 --> 31:33.840]  Secondly, we have normally one panel going on and several workshops going on at the same time.
[31:43.560 --> 31:52.780]  And yes, we tend to have our technical things working at late at the noon of the first day.
[31:53.420 --> 31:55.320]  Because we start about a week earlier.
[31:56.700 --> 32:02.360]  And of course, ten years practice almost automatically to get every cable.
[32:02.900 --> 32:06.080]  Normally we start three days before the start-up.
[32:06.200 --> 32:10.580]  And if the Congress is started, all members of CCC are sleeping on the keyboard.
[32:15.020 --> 32:16.720]  Yeah, officially three days.
[32:17.140 --> 32:19.500]  One day to recover the house.
[32:19.760 --> 32:21.580]  And three days to build up.
[32:22.740 --> 32:25.920]  We have three days of normal program.
[32:26.240 --> 32:29.320]  And two days before and one day after to build up.
[32:30.360 --> 32:32.980]  Some days come a Christmas evening to start.
[32:33.200 --> 32:33.740]  So we talk.
[32:34.020 --> 32:34.520]  We talk.
[32:34.780 --> 32:36.120]  Echo Christmas too.
[32:44.390 --> 32:49.110]  I'll talk a little bit about Hacktic and tell you folks what we are doing out in Amsterdam, in Holland.
[32:50.250 --> 32:53.250]  Hacktic started out as a magazine and not so much as a club of people.
[32:53.450 --> 32:56.030]  This is... I'll show you what a Hacktic looks like.
[32:58.790 --> 33:02.370]  This excellent set of back issues happens to be for sale, but we'll get to that later.
[33:03.890 --> 33:05.010]  Looks a bit like this.
[33:05.230 --> 33:05.890]  It's a magazine.
[33:06.210 --> 33:08.470]  It's not unlike 2600.
[33:08.590 --> 33:10.350]  I'll get to what the differences are later.
[33:10.710 --> 33:12.410]  And we can get into that a little bit more.
[33:13.910 --> 33:15.270]  I'll tell you a bit about the history.
[33:15.990 --> 33:18.030]  Hacktic started back in 1989.
[33:20.610 --> 33:32.550]  At that time, there was a group of people that felt that there was a large discrepancy between what people were led to believe about technology and the things that we found to be actually true.
[33:32.750 --> 33:34.590]  Because we were breaking into computer systems.
[33:34.730 --> 33:37.350]  We were finding that there was hardly any security.
[33:37.570 --> 33:40.090]  Computer systems that we came across were usually flaky.
[33:40.090 --> 33:43.290]  The people that were running them didn't know what they were talking about.
[33:45.370 --> 33:48.650]  The days of networking were just beginning in 1989.
[33:50.690 --> 33:54.350]  And the people operating the networks had no idea what they were talking about.
[33:54.490 --> 33:57.470]  And we found this to be true almost anywhere.
[33:57.870 --> 34:00.690]  Yet people were led to believe that it was all functioning perfectly.
[34:00.950 --> 34:06.130]  And you couldn't turn on your TV or some company was saying that they all had it down and it worked perfectly.
[34:06.130 --> 34:07.930]  And there was absolutely no problem whatsoever.
[34:08.310 --> 34:09.630]  And we saw a lot of problems.
[34:09.790 --> 34:14.190]  We saw problems of people not having access to this new technology.
[34:14.730 --> 34:18.690]  Information not being shared with people that should have access to it.
[34:18.950 --> 34:20.450]  We saw problems of security.
[34:20.670 --> 34:28.790]  People having their data in computers and trusting these computers and these government agencies and hospitals and everything with their data.
[34:29.630 --> 34:32.510]  When it was very possible for other people to break into it.
[34:33.350 --> 34:37.250]  And we also saw a subculture of people that understood the risks.
[34:37.870 --> 34:42.650]  And was having fun breaking into computer systems and telling each other about these risks.
[34:43.210 --> 34:49.150]  And was really developing a real underground information network to share this information.
[34:50.990 --> 34:55.230]  We decided it would be a good idea if these people had their own magazine and their own voice.
[34:55.810 --> 34:59.850]  Because a lot of hackers tend to be fairly paranoid for good reason.
[35:00.050 --> 35:08.110]  They are prosecuted in some countries and they don't get jobs anymore once companies know that you're involved with this group of people.
[35:08.110 --> 35:10.110]  So hackers tend to be fairly paranoid.
[35:10.290 --> 35:17.230]  Which makes it difficult for the press and for the public at large to get a coherent voice out of hackers.
[35:17.350 --> 35:20.710]  To get a coherent opinion out of them.
[35:20.870 --> 35:27.150]  So we decided it would be a good idea to have a central point where all the information came together and publish a magazine from there.
[35:28.890 --> 35:37.790]  In 1989 we also hosted, together with Paradiso, a cultural center in Amsterdam and also a music center, very well known.
[35:38.030 --> 35:40.330]  We hosted the Galactic Hacker Party.
[35:42.510 --> 35:51.950]  It was an international conference where hackers from all over Europe and actually from all over the world could meet and get together and discuss political issues.
[35:51.950 --> 36:01.870]  And it was one of the first meetings where hackers from all over the world started discussing making information free, getting the information out there.
[36:06.210 --> 36:20.650]  We also... one of the things we see as our role is publishing things that either the phone company or large computer corporations or governments do to control people or to keep tabs on them and expose what they are doing.
[36:20.650 --> 36:22.630]  Exposed the real technical facts.
[36:23.270 --> 36:25.190]  I can give you a few examples of that.
[36:26.010 --> 36:43.190]  And what I think the best example is, how about half a year ago, there was a very well known court case in Holland where a large ecstasy gang was being prosecuted on phone taps, on wire taps from all their mobile telephones.
[36:43.190 --> 36:56.570]  But because these people were swapping cell phones with each other and with other people and cell phones were going all over the place, it was very hard for the government to get wire taps on each phone.
[36:57.150 --> 37:05.410]  The other thing is, the government at that time didn't really have the possibility to wire tap into the central office where all the phone calls go out to the normal telephone system.
[37:05.870 --> 37:18.390]  So instead they decided to build a radio scanner and hook a tape recorder up to it and through some special circuitry have the radio scanner tap all the cell phone calls that were close to it.
[37:18.870 --> 37:25.410]  And then on the tapes they'd filter out the calls made by these criminals and put them on tape and use them as evidence.
[37:26.930 --> 37:38.130]  And we proved to the court and through the press also to the people, we proved that this was not the way to do it because they must have been tapping hundreds if not thousands of other people.
[37:39.030 --> 37:43.150]  We proved that this is not how our government should go about catching criminals.
[37:44.430 --> 37:49.610]  That case is still in court, there is now an appeal pending, so we don't know what's going to happen.
[37:49.610 --> 37:56.210]  But the thing is, nobody, until we came around, nobody questioned what the phone company and the police were saying.
[37:56.350 --> 37:59.630]  They all said, well, we've just tapped these criminals using this radio scanner.
[38:00.170 --> 38:08.150]  And it takes a hacker mind, it takes a few hackers out there to show, hey, you can't just tap one phone with just a scanner and a tape recorder.
[38:08.450 --> 38:13.530]  You have to listen to all these bits on the air, and they aren't doing that, so they must be tapping everybody.
[38:13.990 --> 38:16.610]  And by asking the right questions, we got them to admit that.
[38:18.330 --> 38:32.890]  There's another good example where the Dutch phone company, this is really funny, the Dutch phone company at one point was charged that it was possible through their standard telephone.
[38:33.050 --> 38:38.090]  We have a standard telephone in Holland, much like the old standard telephone that was used here.
[38:38.350 --> 38:41.610]  It's no longer in production, but it's called the T-65.
[38:42.330 --> 38:55.410]  And somebody found out that you could, through the T-65, out of literature, he didn't do it himself, through the T-65 you could listen to conversations in a room even if the phone was on the hook, if you had access to the bare phone wire.
[38:57.770 --> 39:01.530]  And we published that, and we even did it, just to demonstrate it.
[39:01.610 --> 39:03.710]  And the phone company denied everything.
[39:03.930 --> 39:05.750]  They said, no, there's no way, you cannot do that.
[39:05.750 --> 39:10.490]  You can't listen to phone conversations through the wire if the receiver is on the hook.
[39:11.230 --> 39:19.850]  So, especially Bill, but also some other people, spent some time actually building the device, and then we could show people, look, you can't do it, here it is.
[39:20.470 --> 39:32.650]  And even though the debate would have happened without us, the debate on this, it would have been inconclusive because nobody would have had the mind and the knowledge of the phone system to actually build the device.
[39:33.790 --> 39:39.730]  So, I'm just pointing out some useful things about how the hacking knowledge can be useful.
[39:40.150 --> 39:52.530]  How having knowledge in the society, people that know about telephone systems, computers, telecommunications, and are not working for the government, they're not working for major corporations, so they can open their mouths if something goes wrong.
[39:52.690 --> 39:56.150]  They can tell society what's going on if it's not working.
[39:59.710 --> 40:04.590]  Together with that, of course, and that's also in Hack Take, a lot of articles are about that.
[40:04.950 --> 40:08.610]  Together with that comes a responsibility for hackers.
[40:09.470 --> 40:10.750]  A lot of hackers are young people.
[40:12.350 --> 40:14.950]  I know hackers that are 12, 13 years old.
[40:15.850 --> 40:19.430]  And I think teaching people to hack is like teaching people karate.
[40:19.430 --> 40:25.970]  You have to teach a responsibility along with the knowledge.
[40:26.410 --> 40:33.930]  You can teach people how to break into computer systems, but you also have to teach them it's probably not good to do this and destroy computer systems.
[40:34.750 --> 40:37.690]  It's not good to erase other people's work.
[40:37.870 --> 40:40.930]  It's not good to violate people's privacy.
[40:42.330 --> 40:50.230]  So it's very important, I think, to also teach people what not to do with this newfound knowledge, this newfound power that they have.
[40:52.990 --> 40:54.150]  What else should I talk about?
[40:54.230 --> 40:54.850]  What else have we done?
[40:57.570 --> 41:00.790]  Then 1992 came along, end of 1991.
[41:03.310 --> 41:11.030]  And it really started when four or five hackers were kicked off an internet system that some of them had legal accounts on and others were hacking into.
[41:12.530 --> 41:15.930]  And four or five people found themselves without any internet access.
[41:16.270 --> 41:19.250]  Internet at that time in Holland did not have a public access provider.
[41:19.670 --> 41:25.570]  There was nobody offering internet except to major corporations and universities for thousands of dollars a month.
[41:26.290 --> 41:30.710]  And if you didn't like that, you could always get mail and news, but not the online access.
[41:30.850 --> 41:32.590]  And even mail and news were incredibly expensive.
[41:34.350 --> 41:38.310]  So we decided to do it ourselves and set up an internet provider.
[41:38.510 --> 41:42.050]  We called it XS4ALL, which is written XS4ALL.
[41:45.070 --> 41:52.450]  That got really popular real fast, even though the internet community frowned upon it badly because they thought, this is weird.
[41:52.710 --> 41:58.710]  Hackers that are breaking into our computer systems, and then we kick them off our computer systems, and then they buy a house and become our neighbors.
[42:02.570 --> 42:04.370]  So there goes the neighborhood, yeah.
[42:06.470 --> 42:24.470]  But since we were the only internet provider, and we set the cost for internet access in Holland really, really low, so nobody, for the first few months, nobody felt like competing with us, all these very well-known and famous people that happened not to be working for a university or a major corporation were suddenly having .hacktic.nl in their email address.
[42:25.050 --> 42:36.770]  And even the head of the Dutch police force that chases high-tech criminals is actually known as fridge at CRI.hacktic.nl.
[42:39.110 --> 42:43.610]  So we were putting up a public access service that was much wider than the hacker community.
[42:43.770 --> 42:49.270]  We were putting people on the internet, and now there's other providers, but for about a year we were the only ones.
[42:51.870 --> 42:53.850]  That gave the hacker image a real boost.
[42:53.990 --> 42:57.570]  A real boost because we had a really good image when we started.
[42:57.570 --> 43:00.670]  People saw us as like the Robin Hoods fighting the system.
[43:00.950 --> 43:01.910]  Oh, this is really good.
[43:02.070 --> 43:06.170]  Finally some people that can do something about big corporations storing my data.
[43:06.870 --> 43:14.930]  And then the government had to push through their new computer crime laws because of pressure exerted on them from Germany and from the United States.
[43:16.190 --> 43:23.330]  And so all this bad publicity happened about how much economic damage hackers were doing to Dutch companies.
[43:25.870 --> 43:29.890]  And for a while the hacker image was really fairly grim.
[43:30.050 --> 43:35.370]  Hackers were people that broke into computer systems and broke things and didn't do any good at all.
[43:35.950 --> 43:44.430]  But this setting up of access for all has really helped us in breaking open the situation in creating a new image of hackers.
[43:44.710 --> 43:53.890]  Even though the same people that set up access for all are still involved in breaking security and seeing what's out there and how it's hackable.
[43:56.910 --> 44:10.930]  We also organized Hacking at the End of the Universe in 1993, summer of last year, which is a convention not unlike this one, except that we had it out in tents and on a campsite in the middle of nowhere.
[44:12.810 --> 44:13.570]  But it was fun.
[44:13.750 --> 44:14.650]  It lasted three days.
[44:15.190 --> 44:16.870]  There was a lot of people coming together there.
[44:16.970 --> 44:27.570]  We had a pirate radio station, a network on the internet, workshops all happening simultaneously but also in a big auditorium tent.
[44:29.970 --> 44:30.890]  That was a lot of fun.
[44:31.050 --> 44:38.330]  And one of the ideas that came out of Hacking at the End of the Universe was to set up the Digital City, which is a free net we are operating out of Amsterdam.
[44:38.770 --> 44:41.730]  The Digital City now has 40 modems hooked up to it.
[44:41.950 --> 44:47.170]  It's a Sun workstation and it's running software that allows people to communicate with each other real easily.
[44:47.390 --> 44:54.350]  And we chose a city metaphor so people can actually walk around streets and do things, meet each other.
[44:56.130 --> 44:57.470]  where it is really a city.
[44:59.910 --> 45:00.350]  Sorry?
[45:01.330 --> 45:02.230]  It's still going.
[45:02.550 --> 45:02.930]  It's still going.
[45:02.930 --> 45:08.490]  It's internet address is dds.hacktic.nl.
[45:08.630 --> 45:09.610]  And you can tell that to it.
[45:10.850 --> 45:12.130]  Most of it's in Dutch though.
[45:12.310 --> 45:14.550]  Although we're working on a bilingual version of it.
[45:16.110 --> 45:16.550]  Hmm?
[45:23.920 --> 45:29.620]  Now, DDS, I'll say it later at the end because there's a number of addresses I'd like to give you folks.
[45:33.660 --> 45:41.040]  The Digital City in the beginning was sponsored by the city of Amsterdam because they were putting their public information on there.
[45:41.120 --> 45:41.720]  They still are.
[45:41.960 --> 45:44.060]  And it's also still sponsored by the city of Amsterdam.
[45:44.220 --> 45:52.000]  But they are putting all the city documents that they have, like the transcripts from all the city council meetings.
[45:52.880 --> 45:59.400]  All the public information, like at what time does a city swimming pool on the other side of town open and close.
[45:59.660 --> 46:04.020]  From the most mundane stuff to the mail addresses of all the politicians and everything.
[46:04.860 --> 46:06.420]  That's all in the Digital City.
[46:07.020 --> 46:14.660]  And right now the Digital City is also receiving money from the Ministry of Economic Affairs in Holland and from, I think, the Ministry of Cultural Affairs.
[46:14.660 --> 46:18.460]  And we're looking for ground from the Ministry of Education.
[46:18.820 --> 46:22.480]  So, we are actually a government-sponsored thing now.
[46:23.360 --> 46:31.580]  There's hackers now setting up the Digital City together, I should mention, with the cultural center Diwali in Amsterdam, which is also participating.
[46:33.580 --> 46:36.960]  And we're really working on getting information out to the people.
[46:37.100 --> 46:42.300]  There's really a lot of hackers that are putting part of their energy into making the system work.
[46:45.120 --> 46:49.160]  I should also touch the issue of security on the Hacktic systems.
[46:49.580 --> 46:52.840]  Because we've had people break into Access for All and crack root on it.
[46:52.940 --> 46:54.820]  And we've had people break into the Digital City.
[46:56.580 --> 47:00.160]  We're giving people half a year of free access, if they tell us how they did it.
[47:03.400 --> 47:08.580]  And that's made Access for All, I think, one of the most secure systems on the internet.
[47:09.080 --> 47:11.820]  Because everybody wants... we've made it sort of an honor thing.
[47:12.040 --> 47:13.840]  There's people that have hacked root four times.
[47:14.100 --> 47:16.040]  There's people that have hacked it only once.
[47:16.080 --> 47:22.720]  And if people hack root three times, they get to be invited on the security panel where they can advise on making Access for All even more secure.
[47:24.880 --> 47:46.260]  So that's... even though we're setting up a really legitimate public access internet UNIX site, we're still trying to prove to people that communicating with hackers and using their skills and knowledge to make the system more secure is a much more sensible approach than trying to send the FBI after them and not doing anything about your system security.
[47:47.200 --> 47:48.720]  But it's an ongoing battle.
[47:48.860 --> 47:49.960]  UNIX will never be secure.
[47:50.100 --> 47:51.280]  Systems will never be secure.
[47:53.080 --> 47:54.240]  We'll see what happens.
[47:57.420 --> 48:03.780]  After that, the government tried to make cryptography in all forms illegal.
[48:04.260 --> 48:05.600]  We were really shocked by that.
[48:05.800 --> 48:06.520]  It came out of the blue.
[48:09.080 --> 48:14.820]  Because criminals are using cryptography, cryptography should be totally illegal, was the basic idea of the law.
[48:14.820 --> 48:19.780]  And instead of first pushing clipper, they were trying to do what I would call a paper clipper.
[48:20.200 --> 48:25.080]  They were trying to get everybody to register their public keys with the government.
[48:25.560 --> 48:28.100]  So they'd have a clipper without having the actual hardware.
[48:28.280 --> 48:32.360]  They'd just have everybody's public key in a register somewhere.
[48:32.360 --> 48:35.720]  Which is a really funny idea and it's really crazy.
[48:37.260 --> 48:38.700]  And that has...
[48:38.700 --> 48:42.960]  Of course, we were very much against it from the very beginning, but that was to be expected.
[48:43.140 --> 48:49.260]  But it's also triggered in Holland a movement of people that suddenly woke up and said, Hey, this is not possible.
[48:49.380 --> 48:50.080]  That can be happening.
[48:50.940 --> 48:53.160]  And we've had some really good press.
[48:53.380 --> 49:04.340]  And there's now actually a movement of people against this type of law working on understanding all these issues and impact of technology and impact of these new laws.
[49:04.820 --> 49:07.900]  A movement that is much wider than the hacker community has ever been.
[49:16.330 --> 49:18.250]  So that's really good.
[49:18.990 --> 49:22.990]  Even though the law did not go through this time, they will come back with it again.
[49:23.310 --> 49:29.990]  But because they made such a foolish attempt at it the first time, there's a movement going of people that are watching out for it.
[49:30.350 --> 49:33.310]  There's an infrastructure ready of people that are willing to fight it.
[49:33.490 --> 49:37.710]  Lawyers, there's politicians, people that are good at lobbying.
[49:38.230 --> 49:39.870]  It's not just us hackers anymore.
[49:40.010 --> 49:40.610]  That's very good.
[49:43.350 --> 49:44.730]  What else should I be talking about?
[49:46.050 --> 49:48.850]  Oh, I can give you guys a scoop because Hacktic is almost...
[49:48.850 --> 49:56.470]  The new Hacktic, I don't have an issue with me, is about to hit the newsstands and we hacked the prepaid chip card system that's out in Holland.
[49:57.670 --> 49:59.370]  I think it's a pan-European system.
[49:59.510 --> 50:00.370]  The Germans have it too.
[50:01.170 --> 50:01.490]  But...
[50:04.210 --> 50:05.110]  No, no, no, no.
[50:05.210 --> 50:05.990]  It's the same system.
[50:06.130 --> 50:07.670]  It's a chip card prepaid system.
[50:07.670 --> 50:14.610]  And we've hacked this system and we've built a program for the PC that does an emulation of it over the print report.
[50:15.490 --> 50:18.010]  So, your PC can pretend to be a chip card.
[50:18.270 --> 50:22.690]  Now, in all other countries in Europe, they have these nasty flaps that go...
[50:22.690 --> 50:27.210]  After you stick the card in, there's a flap, a door that closes behind the card.
[50:27.910 --> 50:32.190]  But the Dutch have phones where you can still touch the card while it's actually reading the chip.
[50:32.610 --> 50:34.570]  This is because the Dutch are paranoid.
[50:35.410 --> 50:37.610]  They don't trust machines that take your cards.
[50:39.430 --> 50:39.670]  So...
[50:41.630 --> 50:42.670]  Oh, same in English.
[50:42.770 --> 50:44.650]  Well, the Brits are paranoid too then.
[50:47.390 --> 50:57.630]  So, even though we're working on giving people access to the internet, and we're doing all these, let's say, mainstream, above-ground things, we are still working.
[50:57.630 --> 51:08.090]  If a new piece of technology comes out and phone companies or other organizations are claiming that it's really, really, really secure, we still go out and see if it really is secure.
[51:08.210 --> 51:10.070]  We still go out and find out if we can hack it.
[51:11.430 --> 51:14.830]  We're keeping that knowledge alive as well, because it is important.
[51:15.130 --> 51:36.810]  And, God forbid, if things ever go wrong, if this society ever falls towards a dictatorship, and we are going to need people that know how to break into computer systems, that know how to subvert technology, because all this beautiful technology that's being set up around us today could be used against us.
[51:37.670 --> 51:42.310]  And if it is, we're going to need as many people as possible that understand how it works.
[51:43.030 --> 51:51.470]  They don't have to go on the streets and clone cell phones today as long as they have the mindset to understand how this technology works.
[51:51.530 --> 51:58.170]  They have the mindset to not sit there and say, oh, it's technology, I can't do anything about it.
[51:58.730 --> 52:00.450]  Because there is scary things happening.
[52:01.010 --> 52:05.010]  Governments all over the world are working on registering our every move.
[52:05.010 --> 52:13.970]  There are now boxes that you can hook up to a video camera that have video import on one side, and then license plates come out serially on the other side.
[52:15.370 --> 52:22.010]  There are interesting devices being made to enable governments to control what we are doing.
[52:22.410 --> 52:29.390]  As I was saying, cellular phones are being tracked down by 100 or 200 meters now, if you're trying to make a call with the new digital systems.
[52:30.350 --> 52:30.930]  Government.
[52:32.230 --> 52:33.110]  Oh, sure.
[52:33.650 --> 52:35.570]  Government is subcontracting.
[52:37.670 --> 52:38.250]  That's...
[52:38.910 --> 52:48.710]  Because I think it's not as scary when the government is doing it, because the government is somewhat controlled by the public.
[52:49.050 --> 52:55.950]  I think it's much more scary, actually, if public corporations are doing it, because they are not controlled that much.
[52:56.150 --> 52:56.470]  Sure.
[52:56.670 --> 52:58.350]  What I'm saying is we need...
[52:58.350 --> 53:03.530]  Even if you think we don't need the knowledge today, I think that's a debatable thing.
[53:04.030 --> 53:05.530]  That's a broader political debate.
[53:06.010 --> 53:13.150]  Even if you think that today's government is really not that bad, it's still probably wise to keep some of the knowledge alive.
[53:13.350 --> 53:14.590]  That's what we're trying to do.
[53:17.150 --> 53:18.310]  Well, what else can I say?
[53:18.410 --> 53:21.650]  I can say we're opening up a new World Wide Web server for people on the Internet.
[53:22.090 --> 53:23.970]  It's the same address as what's written there.
[53:24.870 --> 53:28.810]  It's said that it's not DDS, but WWW, World Wide Web.
[53:30.190 --> 53:34.370]  It should be open by the end of September, so in about a month and a half.
[53:34.610 --> 53:37.170]  There should be quite a bit of information on there.
[53:39.870 --> 53:43.510]  This excellent set of back issues is available with me for $50.
[53:44.190 --> 53:53.970]  It contains five years' worth of hectic, and it's really a stack of paper this big, so it's going to keep you reading for a while, if you speak Dutch, of course.
[53:55.770 --> 53:58.250]  But there is a lot of schematics and everything in there.
[53:59.210 --> 54:00.290]  Hey, get a dictionary.
[54:00.470 --> 54:01.150]  They're not that expensive.
[54:05.190 --> 54:06.990]  Well, what else can I say except...
[54:08.950 --> 54:23.570]  Yeah, I want to thank the Chaos Computer Club, TAP Magazine, even though Richard Cheshire has already left back to Florida, 2600 Magazine, and lots of other people for all the inspiration they've given us over the years.
[54:23.570 --> 54:24.890]  Say hi.
[54:32.270 --> 54:36.570]  If there's any questions, just ask them.
[54:38.350 --> 54:42.510]  Can you tell us about the actors making other countries in Europe?
[54:42.690 --> 54:46.390]  Are they really tightly knit to each other, or are they quite separate?
[54:49.690 --> 54:51.170]  That's a tough one to call.
[54:51.610 --> 54:53.170]  France, I don't really understand.
[54:53.390 --> 54:54.930]  I don't really know what's going on there.
[54:58.810 --> 55:01.850]  Because there's not really a coherent scene there.
[55:02.170 --> 55:04.070]  In England, everybody's just scared.
[55:05.690 --> 55:09.470]  In Denmark, there were some people doing calling card stuff.
[55:10.470 --> 55:12.810]  And there's a lot of people...
[55:12.810 --> 55:26.530]  Through Scandinavia as a whole, there's kids doing calling card things, and making phone calls to the stage to update their bulletin boards, but I don't think there's much of a political hacker scene.
[55:29.430 --> 55:36.970]  There's some people in Spain and Italy there are, but we have some kind of exchange.
[55:36.970 --> 55:41.170]  We send us all magazines and so on.
[55:41.310 --> 55:53.130]  And we meet at the congresses we make in Europe, the whole thing, the HECC, the University of America's Communication Congress, there are most of the European people coming.
[55:53.570 --> 56:01.370]  But mostly the things do there work just in their land, so...
[56:02.330 --> 56:07.570]  Well, there is some organization calling itself Chaos Metric of France.
[56:08.510 --> 56:14.190]  They are showing a magazine, supposedly.
[56:14.630 --> 56:16.090]  Unfortunately, we never got one.
[56:16.470 --> 56:26.390]  And so there is somebody, or there are some people using the same name as we do, and...
[56:26.390 --> 56:29.550]  But there's not a lot of contact for them, unfortunately.
[56:31.030 --> 56:32.990]  So, I don't really know why.
[56:33.210 --> 56:38.010]  In Italy there's a group of people called Decoder in Milan that they're working really hard on.
[56:39.010 --> 56:50.810]  I wouldn't say they're into hacking as much, but they are into the culture of new technology, and the culture of new media, and they are into that angle of it.
[56:53.710 --> 56:55.150]  Sort of an underground wire.
[57:08.070 --> 57:10.890]  I think there's anybody from what I would call the hacker...
[57:10.890 --> 57:14.950]  There's probably somebody in jail somewhere that has once...
[57:14.950 --> 57:18.030]  And it's a good thing that could be related to the hacker community.
[57:18.390 --> 57:18.770]  There's...
[57:19.390 --> 57:19.910]  There's...
[57:19.910 --> 57:20.110]  There's not...
[57:20.110 --> 57:23.410]  There's not anybody, I don't know, on hacking charges.
[57:24.130 --> 57:27.810]  There's not anyone from the computer club.
[57:27.910 --> 57:30.490]  I was the only person who was in jail, but...
[57:30.490 --> 57:35.570]  I know there will be one person who will make a lot of mistakes with calling cards.
[57:35.890 --> 57:39.670]  They have great chance to go in jail next time.
[57:40.350 --> 57:41.350]  He's not a hacker.
[57:41.350 --> 57:42.850]  Yes, he's not a hacker.
[57:43.630 --> 57:45.630]  Yes, he is not a hacker.
[57:45.790 --> 57:50.350]  His otherros programs we did improve on the sale for money rifles.
[57:51.170 --> 57:51.750]  so...
[57:51.750 --> 57:52.950]  ...the hacker.
[58:04.800 --> 58:06.180]  That's a great test...
[58:06.180 --> 58:07.040]  and...
[58:13.490 --> 58:19.050]  The sites are repressive on people exploring, in general, not just hackers.
[58:19.050 --> 58:21.150]  You are not supposed to find out.
[58:21.410 --> 58:22.690]  You are not supposed to explore.
[58:25.610 --> 58:29.930]  There are two things here.
[58:32.650 --> 58:40.190]  As far as I know, the laws are more restricted here than there are in Germany, in the Netherlands.
[58:41.030 --> 58:45.250]  The Netherlands are environmentally open society, really.
[58:47.070 --> 58:56.830]  On the other hand, there are some constitutional rights that are better in the States than over there in Europe.
[58:57.470 --> 59:05.250]  And the freedom of speech, for example, is granted no matter what in the United States, whether it is in Europe.
[59:05.930 --> 59:10.010]  For example, we see a back side of this.
[59:10.190 --> 59:16.930]  There is quite a lot of Nazi propaganda going into Germany, being sent out from the United States address.
[59:17.410 --> 59:18.650]  And there is nothing to do about it.
[59:20.630 --> 59:28.110]  But Nazi propaganda is one of the very few things that are illegal in Germany, in respect of the movie.
[59:30.070 --> 59:39.190]  And so there is a very, very live civil rights movement in the United States.
[59:40.190 --> 59:45.370]  If it is more active than over Europe.
[59:47.170 --> 59:51.350]  But it is a different question, really.
[59:52.130 --> 59:55.470]  It is very difficult to make clearly yes or no.
[59:56.770 --> 01:00:00.590]  So you can make more things in Germany than France, I know.
[01:00:01.850 --> 01:00:02.250]  Right.
[01:00:03.630 --> 01:00:05.990]  Yeah, France is a very centralistic culture.
[01:00:05.990 --> 01:00:11.370]  And so, Helen, you are a tragic state of mind.
[01:00:12.970 --> 01:00:16.830]  Yeah, France is forbidden in France since last year.
[01:00:17.030 --> 01:00:25.730]  You are not allowed to strip anything, any information censor anywhere up there, telephone line, which is not readable for the government.
[01:00:28.610 --> 01:00:39.910]  And this is much far other than the discussion this year about dictatorship, and the possibility to forbid all other cryptography that made with a clipper chip.
[01:00:40.050 --> 01:00:41.230]  In France, it is reality.
[01:00:42.710 --> 01:00:49.930]  So, there is even a discussion in the European Parliament to think about France's ideas.
[01:00:50.310 --> 01:00:50.510]  It is real.
[01:00:51.210 --> 01:00:53.630]  The only people that need secrets are really criminals.
[01:00:56.770 --> 01:00:58.690]  Other people don't need secrets.
[01:00:58.690 --> 01:01:00.290]  Other people don't need secrets.
[01:01:03.810 --> 01:01:04.630]  Other people don't need secrets.
[01:01:05.150 --> 01:01:05.830]  Other people don't need secrets.
[01:01:05.830 --> 01:01:07.070]  Those are bad thoughts, gentlemen.
[01:01:07.770 --> 01:01:08.670]  Let's not do it.
[01:01:08.670 --> 01:01:09.970]  The jail is much smaller.
[01:01:20.040 --> 01:01:20.420]  Oh!
[01:01:21.320 --> 01:01:22.860]  I don't think the dialer technology...
[01:01:22.860 --> 01:01:29.740]  In Holland, there is a new law enacted since 1993 that makes some specific things illegal.
[01:01:30.060 --> 01:01:36.040]  And one of the articles of this new law just about spells demon dialer.
[01:01:36.040 --> 01:01:45.600]  It doesn't say demon dialer, but it describes all the activities that Hacktic has been doing with the demon dialer in explicit detail.
[01:01:45.780 --> 01:01:53.760]  So, we decided it would probably not be a good idea to go on with the demon dialer and do other things that would piss them off just as bad, even though they weren't in the law yet.
[01:01:57.700 --> 01:02:00.680]  That's... maybe I should explain what the demon dialer is.
[01:02:00.960 --> 01:02:02.500]  I can show one.
[01:02:02.680 --> 01:02:03.760]  This is a demon dialer.
[01:02:07.440 --> 01:02:08.020]  It's on?
[01:02:08.020 --> 01:02:08.660]  That's human.
[01:02:12.700 --> 01:02:13.740]  That's C5.
[01:02:18.460 --> 01:02:19.860]  That's C4.
[01:02:20.540 --> 01:02:22.040]  Let me see what verse...
[01:02:22.780 --> 01:02:23.960]  That's C6.
[01:02:25.580 --> 01:02:28.740]  Nickel, dime, quarter.
[01:02:28.840 --> 01:02:29.340]  You know those.
[01:02:29.340 --> 01:02:30.980]  We can't use those anywhere in Europe.
[01:02:33.080 --> 01:02:35.640]  That's... this is a universal device.
[01:02:35.840 --> 01:02:38.340]  It does everything and it's the size of a dialer.
[01:02:39.680 --> 01:02:40.500]  Um... sorry?
[01:02:43.120 --> 01:02:45.280]  Well, Hacktic doesn't have anything to do with...
[01:02:45.280 --> 01:02:46.700]  We are selling them from Germany now.
[01:02:49.240 --> 01:02:51.360]  Hacktic doesn't have anything to do with these devices.
[01:02:51.360 --> 01:02:52.600]  Well, I have.
[01:02:55.240 --> 01:02:59.440]  We once used to manufacture... we built the things and then basically...
[01:02:59.440 --> 01:03:00.580]  They have nothing to do with it.
[01:03:02.840 --> 01:03:03.240]  Um...
[01:03:04.380 --> 01:03:06.120]  That's one piece of technology we built.
[01:03:06.180 --> 01:03:09.660]  Another piece of technology we built is a pager decoder.
[01:03:11.060 --> 01:03:15.080]  A device that you hook up to a radio or to a broken pager or to whatever.
[01:03:15.340 --> 01:03:20.000]  And then on the other side, out of the serial port, come who's being paged with what information.
[01:03:20.560 --> 01:03:23.860]  And let me see, is there any other things we built as far as technology?
[01:03:25.700 --> 01:03:26.740]  Uh... not really.
[01:03:29.140 --> 01:03:29.540]  Uh...
[01:03:29.540 --> 01:03:31.000]  Yeah, some... some silly phone stuff.
[01:03:31.180 --> 01:03:32.960]  Like we built a, uh...
[01:03:32.960 --> 01:03:34.940]  In Holland, cost pulse counters for the phones.
[01:03:35.060 --> 01:03:37.480]  We have cost impulses on the phone lines.
[01:03:37.700 --> 01:03:39.820]  And the counters for that used to be really expensive.
[01:03:40.060 --> 01:03:43.180]  So we built our own that was basically a, uh...
[01:03:43.180 --> 01:03:46.580]  a calculator with a cost pulse detector wire to the equal button.
[01:03:46.580 --> 01:03:49.520]  So you could just type, uh...
[01:03:49.520 --> 01:03:53.240]  one plus, and then every time a tick came in, the thing would press equals.
[01:03:53.600 --> 01:03:55.700]  Which made a cost pulse counter for a tenth of the cost.
[01:03:55.960 --> 01:03:57.580]  But nothing really, uh...
[01:03:59.300 --> 01:04:00.940]  technologically interesting for the rest.
[01:04:02.760 --> 01:04:06.460]  We built a cost control device, um...
[01:04:06.460 --> 01:04:08.140]  Using this, um...
[01:04:08.140 --> 01:04:10.800]  Tick impulse for our congress.
[01:04:11.240 --> 01:04:16.640]  Because we have lots of phone lines there, and we wanted to know somebody, um...
[01:04:16.640 --> 01:04:18.340]  make very expensive calls.
[01:04:19.860 --> 01:04:20.340]  Um...
[01:04:20.340 --> 01:04:27.400]  So when the ticks came in too fast, then you could program it to cut a line, for example, or to buy some alert.
[01:04:28.440 --> 01:04:30.760]  And so, to have an eye on our phone costs.
[01:04:30.980 --> 01:04:35.800]  The phone bill for our congress for the three days is regularly some, uh...
[01:04:35.800 --> 01:04:36.520]  One thousand dollars.
[01:04:37.280 --> 01:04:38.880]  There's another interesting thing.
[01:04:38.880 --> 01:04:48.080]  The International Maritime Satellite, Imarsat, or Marisat, as it's called here, costs an incredible amount to call these phones from a normal phone.
[01:04:48.420 --> 01:04:49.900]  In Holland, it costs like, uh...
[01:04:51.480 --> 01:04:52.780]  eight or nine dollars a minute.
[01:04:53.340 --> 01:04:56.020]  I think that seven or eight dollars a minute is...
[01:04:56.020 --> 01:04:58.200]  is what it costs to dial these numbers.
[01:04:58.460 --> 01:05:04.740]  And the phone company actually has to cover up about 70% of that to the International Maritime Satellite organization.
[01:05:04.740 --> 01:05:14.740]  So we calculated that if ten people could keep a connection to that satellite open for three days each, then, in Holland, you'd make it to the, uh...
[01:05:15.820 --> 01:05:20.180]  you'd make it as a separate listed item on the yearly balance of the phone company.
[01:05:22.960 --> 01:05:25.480]  That's... just if you ever hate your phone company, that's what you do.
[01:05:30.640 --> 01:05:31.560]  Any other...
[01:05:31.560 --> 01:05:33.880]  We could sit here for hours, but...
[01:05:34.820 --> 01:05:36.740]  I mean, there's... there's one more, uh...
[01:05:37.300 --> 01:05:39.000]  work trip today being here, anyhow.
[01:05:39.900 --> 01:05:40.880]  Yeah, there's... there's...
[01:05:40.880 --> 01:05:42.800]  I think there's something else coming, but, uh...
[01:05:42.800 --> 01:05:43.580]  I'll tell you in a minute.
[01:05:43.900 --> 01:05:44.440]  That was it.
[01:05:45.360 --> 01:05:45.900]  Thank you.