[00:00.000 --> 00:01.920] Bernie, thank you so much. [00:02.240 --> 00:07.820] This wouldn't be happening without you, so it's really nice for you to have us. [00:08.060 --> 00:09.120] We're very excited about it. [00:09.220 --> 00:14.780] And as you can see, this technical drama that's happening here on stage, this is usually part of our act. [00:16.180 --> 00:18.860] We are never without this kind of drama. [00:19.180 --> 00:21.920] So it's good we have a stage for it here today. [00:24.040 --> 00:24.460] Woohoo! [00:25.180 --> 00:29.600] And yeah, so I would like to start the talk if... [00:30.440 --> 00:32.920] Are we pretty much... [00:41.380 --> 00:43.940] Okay, so can you check it quietly? [00:44.260 --> 00:45.140] And I'll start. [00:46.060 --> 00:48.180] Yeah, I mean, I'll shut it up until I hear it. [00:48.220 --> 00:48.680] How about that? [00:51.440 --> 00:52.000] Okay. [00:52.000 --> 00:52.560] Well... [00:54.340 --> 00:56.060] We all have our roles in this. [00:57.760 --> 00:58.880] Okay, so... [01:00.680 --> 01:04.780] This talk is called At Your Level Building Tools, our sound stage. [01:05.200 --> 01:06.620] Thanks so much for coming. [01:10.480 --> 01:12.860] Yeah, you know, I really can't start without the screen. [01:13.320 --> 01:20.820] Okay, essentially, this talk is about the artistic processes of foci and loci, which is my game art duo with my partner here, Chris Burke. [01:21.580 --> 01:24.560] And we are an experimental collaboration. [01:26.440 --> 01:27.440] We improvise. [01:27.620 --> 01:32.060] We build sound machines, actually, with game engines to improvise during musical performances. [01:34.480 --> 01:36.300] And such as now. [01:36.860 --> 01:55.720] And a lot of our pieces, you know, generally involve using tools that, you know, we don't really know much about, you know, that are unexplored, undefined as artistic media, which is part of what keeps us working as artists, I say. [01:55.720 --> 01:57.080] I don't know. [01:57.180 --> 02:03.480] It's oftentimes an interesting thing, artistic identity. [02:04.660 --> 02:07.440] In essence, one could call it creative or fluid. [02:10.400 --> 02:11.540] So we use PlayStations. [02:13.080 --> 02:17.480] And we use... currently use a game called Little Big Planet. [02:17.740 --> 02:20.360] We've done experiments with Minecraft and Portal. [02:21.180 --> 02:26.840] I have shows... video clips, actually, to show you if we get there. [02:27.620 --> 02:35.660] And one of the things... we used some of their cheats and some mods in those games, which are really interesting and fun in a spontaneous manner. [02:35.660 --> 02:43.000] But one of the things that we found difficult to sidestep while using them, of course, is the fact that they have a very branded look to them. [02:43.520 --> 02:45.480] Which is why we like Little Big Planet. [02:45.760 --> 03:01.020] It's very easy to sidestep the Sackboy avatar, which is, you know, the avatar that was made by Media Molecule to let the player play the video game narrative. [03:01.020 --> 03:08.120] But when we use the game, we use it for its create mode, which is where the level building tools are. [03:08.980 --> 03:17.340] And it's easy to actually put the Sackboy into what's called a controlinator. [03:17.620 --> 03:22.140] Which you have no idea what I'm talking about, because we need to get in there and show it to you. [03:27.160 --> 03:27.600] So... [03:27.600 --> 03:29.020] This is worthy of applause, people. [03:30.720 --> 03:31.460] Thank you. [03:35.820 --> 03:38.900] Next time we do this, we'll just have this be the intro, okay? [03:39.300 --> 03:40.780] With all the gear on the table. [03:41.480 --> 03:42.080] We're back. [03:42.680 --> 03:43.120] Okay. [03:45.620 --> 03:47.060] I'll just do it briefly. [03:47.280 --> 03:47.480] Okay. [03:48.660 --> 03:49.540] Okay, so... [03:51.220 --> 03:53.960] Jeremy, maybe I should just sit there since the machine is there. [03:56.280 --> 03:56.720] Okay. [03:56.720 --> 03:58.020] So, like I said... [03:58.200 --> 03:58.640] No. [03:59.100 --> 04:02.590] Of course, the mics are dead. [04:03.510 --> 04:03.970] Wait, no? [04:04.210 --> 04:04.650] No, they're not. [04:04.750 --> 04:05.110] There you go. [04:05.850 --> 04:06.170] Yes. [04:06.630 --> 04:06.790] Okay. [04:07.950 --> 04:08.370] Thank you. [04:10.070 --> 04:10.950] Okay, so... [04:11.730 --> 04:13.350] I already introduced the talk. [04:14.470 --> 04:16.770] Okay, so this is Foci and Loci. [04:16.870 --> 04:30.710] This is Chris and myself performing at the Brick Theatre in 2011 at a festival called Gameplay Festival, which was about artists, presented artists who use video games and game engines in live performance. [04:33.070 --> 04:37.490] And now I'm going to show you a little bit of a clip of our work. [06:19.140 --> 06:23.540] So all of this work was made using the level building tools in LittleBigPlanet. [06:25.160 --> 06:34.860] As I said before, I'm just going to briefly touch upon why we settled on LittleBigPlanet, as we felt too constrained by the branded look of other game engines. [06:36.940 --> 06:38.200] So I'll move on to that. [06:43.740 --> 06:54.440] Okay, so for example, in Unity's Unity game engine, the low polygonal resolution generally will shackle an indie game developer to the computing power of what they can afford. [06:54.440 --> 06:56.960] This is pretty clearly stated, I think. [06:57.620 --> 07:08.210] So that's sort of one of the reasons things a lot of times, especially with artists using Unity for sort of sound and audiovisual works, things tend to look a lot the same. [07:12.290 --> 07:34.310] Or the Unreal Engine, which comprises the look of many Valve games, which at its best has this no-clip cheat mode in Portal 2 that lets you actually fly right out of the map, which is really cool and as interesting as the spatial abstraction can be to play with, [07:34.590 --> 07:43.170] it still reflects some of the iconic industrial look of the test chambers of the game, and not to mention the indelible crosshair in the center. [07:47.560 --> 08:04.200] And then of course, Minecraft's iconic Lego aesthetic for 3D blocks, and the redstone circuitry, also wonderfully fun for spontaneous creation, but yielded nothing that we really felt like we could call our own, because the look is so identifiably clear it was at the time, [08:04.320 --> 08:12.280] and it is so much more now, especially since it's branded further into corporate territory. [08:17.550 --> 08:27.330] So what we really like about Little Big Planet is that it allows us the flexibility, like I was saying, in the way our work looks because of the create mode or the game-level building mode. [08:27.330 --> 08:42.630] So we're able to redirect or remap our controls from the game buttons, on the game controllers, away from the Sackboy, by using this thing called the Controllinator, which is basically an emulation of the PS3 controller. [08:44.270 --> 08:46.390] That's our little Sackboy there that you see. [08:46.770 --> 08:53.350] And in the slide, he's hidden on the bottom there, behind that purple microchip board there. [08:54.930 --> 09:05.170] Okay, so having given you a little background into the processes of Phocai and Loci, I'm just going to briefly introduce our panelists, and then Jeremy will take over. [09:06.710 --> 09:22.110] So Chris Burke, on the far left over there, whom I already mentioned, is my partner in Phocai and Loci, and has been an active game artist for 15 years, and is known for his pioneering contributions in chip music, and his award-winning Machinima series, [09:22.350 --> 09:23.250] The Spartan Life. [09:26.110 --> 09:31.490] Jeremy, we're excited to be joined by Jeremy Pesner today, who's a multidisciplinary technologist. [09:32.690 --> 09:40.830] He's also the Assistant Director of the Music and Gaming Education Symposium as part of MAGFest, which many of you are probably familiar with. [09:40.830 --> 09:44.730] I believe there are some MAGFest folks here at the conference this weekend. [09:46.350 --> 09:52.090] He's spoken about and demonstrated extensively on how to evaluate player experience in video games. [09:52.610 --> 09:54.910] And then this is me, performing. [09:56.030 --> 09:58.230] I'm a... my name's Tamara Yadao. [09:58.530 --> 10:01.030] I'm a multimedia artist, performer, and educator. [10:01.030 --> 10:04.270] And I essentially am an experimentalist. [10:04.410 --> 10:15.790] I like to experiment with conceptual methods of sound making, or music making, and that includes repurposing antiquated forms of technology, gaming hardware, radios, transmitters, etc. [10:17.370 --> 10:17.650] Okay. [10:19.330 --> 10:23.790] So, without further ado, Jeremy, would you like to give context for our work? [10:24.010 --> 10:24.230] Certainly. [10:24.610 --> 10:24.950] Thank you. [10:32.890 --> 10:34.090] All right, thank you. [10:34.090 --> 10:34.590] Whoops. [10:35.930 --> 10:36.870] Dumped the gun a bit there. [10:37.750 --> 10:43.830] So, my name is Jeremy Pesner, and I'll be talking about the brief cultural evolution of video game fandom. [10:44.550 --> 10:48.150] Chris, when Chris and Tamara first put this panel together, they invited me to talk for some reason. [10:48.510 --> 10:53.190] So, what you might see and what I'm about to talk to is a little bit different than what you might be used to. [10:53.770 --> 10:55.050] So, I'm just going to get right to it. [10:55.990 --> 10:58.890] At this point, gaming is very deep in our culture. [10:58.890 --> 11:02.770] It's not hard to find music covers and fan videos, cosplayers, fan fiction. [11:03.030 --> 11:04.810] But don't read the fan fiction, seriously. [11:06.610 --> 11:06.790] But... [11:06.790 --> 11:07.350] KS. [11:07.550 --> 11:11.270] Why do video games inspire this type of work? [11:11.450 --> 11:13.490] And why this type of work? [11:13.690 --> 11:17.890] That was the question I ultimately set out to answer for my section of this presentation. [11:18.510 --> 11:24.390] And I won't make this too heady or academic, but when I started searching, I was actually surprised by how quickly I found one. [11:24.390 --> 11:30.110] Google Scholar folks, sometimes it can really be helpful and you really have to go nerdy sometimes to get the answer to this. [11:31.110 --> 11:37.770] Basically, TODR, fandom is a way to lend cultural and institutional validity to media that would likely not be otherwise supported. [11:38.310 --> 11:41.950] And I'm going to explain what media that might just be right now. [11:42.830 --> 11:48.190] We don't really see much fandom around classical musicians or painters or playwrights. [11:48.190 --> 11:54.990] I mean, they exist, certainly, but not in comparison to the types of gaming fandom and Star Trek fandom that we would know of. [11:55.470 --> 12:03.730] The fan works and celebrations of popular media, like games, is our way as a community of keeping them alive in the public consciousness and pushing them forward. [12:04.650 --> 12:13.130] John Fisk, who's the author of the article that I've been citing, he identifies fandom as being a mechanism for validity in what we call low culture. [12:13.130 --> 12:17.610] Even if the definition between low and high culture is ambiguous at best. [12:19.310 --> 12:23.810] So, it's pretty clear which way the games were painted when they first came out. [12:23.910 --> 12:26.190] It's pretty clear what category they were put into. [12:26.670 --> 12:28.790] But that even predates video games, I'd say. [12:29.070 --> 12:32.270] I think games as a whole have generally been treated as lower culture. [12:32.410 --> 12:35.790] Monopoly is the only exception I can think of, at least off the top of my head. [12:36.090 --> 12:39.390] Especially because they come out with a new edition of something every half year. [12:40.950 --> 12:43.610] But that perception of gaming has been changing. [12:43.890 --> 12:50.530] In not too long a time span, gaming has gone from a fringe hobby to something that's appreciated by every part of society. [12:50.810 --> 12:53.910] Including the people who have social and economic capital. [12:54.210 --> 13:02.590] The more social and economic capital people have, the more they're likely to elevate artworks and other things of their taste to what you might call higher culture. [13:03.450 --> 13:09.050] Additionally, we as fans have created our own institutions and communities to support gaming. [13:09.290 --> 13:11.490] And I'm going to explain more on that in a moment. [13:12.650 --> 13:27.730] So, what's interesting recently is that even though most fandom has been expressed in unofficial culture, as we've seen, there are an increasing number of examples where it's being expressed in high culture, in official culture. [13:27.950 --> 13:34.730] I mean, the Gamer Symphony Orchestra has been touring for years, and Braid set a new standard in the video games' art question. [13:34.970 --> 13:39.290] So, gaming is definitely crossing that line, as permeable as it was to start with. [13:39.830 --> 13:42.970] I sort of think of it like a reverse Andy Warhol, though. [13:43.290 --> 13:48.670] Because most gamers don't actually have too much official culture in their background than upbringing. [13:48.950 --> 13:51.410] That's not the sort of thing that necessarily they have the... [13:52.190 --> 13:55.250] They've been sort of raised and have the context to fully appreciate. [13:56.010 --> 14:03.230] So, Andy Warhol is the person who is known for making popular art into official or high culture. [14:03.350 --> 14:07.790] The guy who created four, you know, color palette swaps of a Campbell's soup can. [14:07.790 --> 14:23.510] So, what is happening here, though, is instead of sort of bringing gaming up to an official culture level, people in fandom are taking elements of official culture and bringing it to a place where gamers can already appreciate it. [14:24.990 --> 14:31.450] That's where they can still attract the audience and attention of gamers, but still sort of being a bit different from what we might be used to. [14:32.350 --> 14:35.030] And that's really the sort of role that MAGFest plays. [14:35.610 --> 14:38.610] It's awesome, and you really all should come, just putting it out there. [14:39.350 --> 14:43.590] Now, next year will be my 10th MAGFest, and it's different from any other con out there. [14:43.770 --> 14:47.650] We're one of those institutions that official culture normally has to support it. [14:48.010 --> 14:51.770] We don't take corporate sponsorship, and we're by fans for fans. [14:52.370 --> 14:56.070] As Tamara mentioned, I helped to direct the Music and Gaming Education Symposium. [14:56.350 --> 15:05.290] We provide a quasi-academic space to discuss the theory and structure of games and details, but those conversations are meant for anyone, and you don't need a degree to participate. [15:05.850 --> 15:15.650] So we sort of serve as one of those cultural institutions of gaming that a symphony orchestra or a high-end playhouse might have for those media. [15:16.770 --> 15:22.550] So, coming back to this question of foci and loci, what is this thing that they do? [15:23.850 --> 15:31.330] Well, I would call it abstract video art, abstract video expressionism, but programmed to control from inside LittleBigPlanet-level design environment. [15:31.530 --> 15:33.610] It's a unique and semi-interactive world. [15:34.010 --> 15:38.590] And when I first saw them doing this work, I knew that they were going to have to participate in mages. [15:38.750 --> 15:43.970] And I had to, you know, I had to persuade them for a little while, because they weren't necessarily sure it was the right venue. [15:44.230 --> 15:46.210] We didn't have any funny hats to wear. [15:46.790 --> 15:48.370] Ah, that's all changed now. [15:48.710 --> 15:50.330] Fortunately, it was the right venue. [15:50.550 --> 15:53.070] And they found, they really found a nice home in mages. [15:53.330 --> 16:02.670] And I think, as we sort of, as we go forward, I'm going to be interested to discuss with them the sort of permeability between what is considered low and high culture and the audience for each. [16:02.990 --> 16:05.430] So, I've talked enough though, it's time to let them do their thing. [16:05.670 --> 16:06.250] Thank you. [16:10.170 --> 16:17.090] I think at this point, I was going to show you some footage from a video, but I think we'll just go right into the PlayStation. [16:18.090 --> 16:20.130] And if we have time later, we can do that. [16:20.550 --> 16:20.870] So... [16:20.870 --> 16:22.990] I don't know whether you want to sit out there. [16:23.170 --> 16:24.150] Can you see it well enough? [16:24.330 --> 16:24.870] Can I see it? [16:25.470 --> 16:28.350] Yeah, I'll move if I need to. [16:28.910 --> 16:29.110] Okay. [16:30.970 --> 16:31.770] Yeah, I know. [16:33.050 --> 16:33.410] Okay. [16:33.410 --> 16:34.190] I know how it works. [16:35.230 --> 16:38.870] So, if you do, I'm going to have to bring the microphone up to you, or you can use the microphone there. [16:39.770 --> 16:40.790] Can you see it well enough? [16:45.210 --> 16:45.570] Yes. [16:46.890 --> 16:49.110] Okay, so, do you know where... [16:49.110 --> 16:49.730] It's right there. [16:50.070 --> 16:50.170] Okay. [16:50.310 --> 16:51.210] Yeah, right in the middle. [16:52.310 --> 17:11.190] Okay, so, I'm going to show you this map that I did with using pods in a particle synthesis demonstration, which involves grains of microsound, in which three pods with multiple particle objects have been programmed to interact with each other. [17:12.970 --> 17:18.830] And through these interactions, we see three aspects of what I call behavioral glitch. [17:19.530 --> 17:27.070] So, this is sort of my, you know, example of how using the tools in a way that they weren't intended for. [17:27.070 --> 17:34.470] And if you'll see progressively over the course of looking at the three pods that they do different things. [17:35.650 --> 17:36.050] Okay. [17:36.450 --> 17:39.370] So, let me just pan out here so you can see. [17:39.610 --> 17:41.970] This is the controlinator that we were talking about. [17:42.110 --> 17:47.210] Chris is going to demonstrate this actually after me in his game map. [17:47.210 --> 17:53.550] But this is sort of, you know, these are microchips that you can endow with the behaviors. [17:54.350 --> 17:56.310] And I have one for each pod. [17:57.330 --> 17:58.430] So, that's one. [17:59.230 --> 17:59.950] That's one. [18:00.630 --> 18:01.570] And that's one. [18:01.870 --> 18:02.490] Right there. [18:04.050 --> 18:06.890] But I'm going to put it in preview mode. [18:07.230 --> 18:09.530] So, it takes all of that stuff away and we can look at it. [18:09.610 --> 18:12.930] And if we have time, we'll go back and look at it a little more closely. [18:15.150 --> 18:17.930] So, I'll show them to you first and then I'll talk about each one. [18:19.210 --> 18:20.870] So, I'm going to jump out here. [18:23.010 --> 18:23.490] Oh. [18:23.650 --> 18:23.830] Yeah. [18:24.190 --> 18:24.470] Thanks. [18:26.950 --> 18:28.190] Can you see from the podium? [18:28.470 --> 18:28.590] No. [18:30.570 --> 18:32.050] She's coming out into the audience. [18:32.350 --> 18:32.530] Ooh. [18:34.270 --> 18:35.790] We do this too sometimes. [18:36.530 --> 18:37.270] Thank you. [18:37.910 --> 18:38.390] Gus. [18:39.330 --> 18:39.810] Okay. [18:40.370 --> 18:41.010] All right. [18:41.010 --> 18:44.710] So, let me just put it in preview. [18:45.370 --> 18:45.670] Unpause. [18:47.310 --> 18:48.370] And it's loud. [18:48.830 --> 18:49.530] Thanks. [18:49.770 --> 18:49.910] Okay. [18:50.070 --> 18:50.890] I'll just ride this. [18:51.010 --> 18:51.330] All right. [22:24.140 --> 22:24.840] Okay. [22:25.320 --> 22:28.660] So, those were just three little demonstrations. [22:29.380 --> 22:29.840] Thank you. [22:32.680 --> 22:34.300] I'll just return quickly. [22:39.090 --> 22:40.350] Can I ask a question? [22:41.070 --> 22:41.430] Yes. [22:41.610 --> 22:42.730] After washing, I need a cigarette. [22:42.890 --> 22:43.610] Can I get a smoke out here? [22:43.610 --> 22:44.130] I have to go outside. [22:45.470 --> 22:46.130] I'm serious. [22:47.070 --> 22:47.390] Okay. [22:49.750 --> 22:50.110] I... [22:51.070 --> 22:51.430] I... [22:52.150 --> 22:53.870] Wait, were you asking me for a cigarette? [22:54.870 --> 22:56.490] I just want to smoke because that was awesome. [22:56.490 --> 22:57.250] Oh, yes. [22:57.470 --> 22:57.610] Yes. [22:57.790 --> 22:58.470] Thank you. [23:01.190 --> 23:01.710] I... [23:02.910 --> 23:20.230] So, basically, those were just sort of these three pods I made that sort of play with this idea of overloading the system through algorithmic means, where the objects, you know, they interact with each other, and as they touch each other, they begin to behave differently. [23:21.330 --> 23:22.390] The physical... [23:22.390 --> 23:37.210] They can activate physical changes in the material, the characteristics of their material, and adding the water was just sort of like adding another complex element, you know, to an already chaotic system. [23:37.210 --> 23:42.790] So, you know, the first one is just sort of like an example of like some of the glitching, the sound. [23:42.990 --> 23:52.010] Obviously, clicking is really indicative of overloading a system, as a lot of electronic musicians know when they overload their CPUs. [23:53.590 --> 24:00.470] And then the second pod was more about how the valencies work, or the attractions between these objects work. [24:01.330 --> 24:15.030] And some of them, I have to tell you, some of that programming, I really did not intend for they just sometimes some if you saw three or four of them just kind of bonding and like, you know, kind of like shaking out of control. [24:15.550 --> 24:24.210] That's sort of an emergent behavior, I think that came out of just, you know, putting those specific behaviors onto the microchips. [24:24.430 --> 24:39.290] I think the force chip, which propelled the motion, you know, every time I hit the X button, you know, the particles would sort of like bounce around in the air from just a propulsion that was created by a chip on their programming. [24:39.970 --> 24:44.430] And then the fourth one was just really straightforward, just full overload, see what I could do. [24:44.710 --> 24:53.130] And, you know, it is kind of subtle, but, you know, the glitching out is really, I mean, the frame rate was really dropping a lot. [24:53.830 --> 24:59.370] You know, it was kind of cool to see all of those little objects too, like really satisfying for me at the end of it all. [25:00.870 --> 25:03.410] But that, you know, is essentially just the basis. [25:04.090 --> 25:14.230] It's just a very basic example, I think, that's pretty straightforward when it comes to this idea of, like, kind of trying to do glitchy things or messing around with the environment or pushing the tools. [25:16.830 --> 25:19.810] So I think, Chris, I think it's time. [25:20.370 --> 25:20.830] Oh, okay. [25:21.090 --> 25:21.650] Yeah, thank you. [25:21.950 --> 25:24.190] Would you, before we switch back, could you... [25:24.190 --> 25:25.190] Actually, I'll do it. [25:25.350 --> 25:25.750] Oh, okay. [25:25.750 --> 25:27.770] I'm just going to load my map so we don't have to wait later. [25:27.770 --> 25:27.790] Sure. [25:28.570 --> 25:28.930] Okay. [25:30.030 --> 25:33.810] I could show the Flow Trillium while you're doing that. [25:34.370 --> 25:34.850] Uh-huh. [25:35.390 --> 25:35.730] Yeah. [25:35.890 --> 25:37.450] Oh, well, yeah, let me just get it loaded. [25:37.610 --> 25:38.710] I mean, let it get it start loading. [25:39.150 --> 25:39.470] Okay. [25:40.390 --> 25:44.990] Are there any other questions at the moment since we're, we sort of need these little... [25:44.990 --> 25:45.670] Can I ask another one? [25:46.130 --> 25:46.490] Yes. [25:46.890 --> 25:47.110] Yes. [25:47.370 --> 25:48.450] Are you familiar with Blab? [25:49.090 --> 25:49.450] No. [25:49.630 --> 25:50.290] Blab.im? [25:50.930 --> 25:51.190] Mm-mm. [25:51.330 --> 25:52.450] So anybody here know Blab? [25:53.230 --> 25:53.410] No. [25:53.750 --> 25:54.230] Blab.im? [25:54.270 --> 25:55.550] I'm not, I don't working on an investor. [25:55.710 --> 25:56.330] I just use a tool. [25:57.210 --> 25:59.310] It's like, you know, you're on YouTube, but live streaming. [25:59.650 --> 26:04.430] And then if you hit props, little hands, it shows a little icon, a little circle, right? [26:04.690 --> 26:09.810] The other day I was doing it, I think it'd be funny if they could be bouncing around just like that and hitting each other. [26:09.950 --> 26:13.990] And then you could create almost like marbles hitting each other in almost like an ionic level of chaos. [26:13.990 --> 26:15.570] Oh, cool. [26:15.950 --> 26:16.470] Oh, cool. [26:16.470 --> 26:18.310] Well, I will definitely have to check that out. [26:18.530 --> 26:20.530] Thank you for the suggestion. [26:21.010 --> 26:21.990] You said Blab.im? [26:22.930 --> 26:23.550] Sorry to interrupt. [26:23.730 --> 26:24.010] Yes. [26:24.270 --> 26:25.070] No, not at all. [26:27.510 --> 26:28.030] Okay. [26:28.230 --> 26:28.530] Thanks. [26:28.530 --> 26:30.610] So we're gonna play this now? [26:30.810 --> 26:30.930] Yeah. [26:31.410 --> 26:31.470] Sure. [26:31.570 --> 26:39.710] How do you feel like the constraints influence your creative process, like relative to using another tool? [26:39.930 --> 26:45.050] Like, I know some people use Max MSP for somewhat similar things. [26:45.930 --> 26:46.370] Yes. [26:48.990 --> 26:50.970] Very, we like constraints a lot. [26:51.270 --> 26:54.770] And in fact, it's interesting that you mentioned Max MSP. [26:54.990 --> 27:04.490] I know some users would probably argue with this, but I kind of feel like it is sort of like Max MSP, you know, for video games in a way. [27:04.610 --> 27:06.890] I mean, it's, that's what we like to call it. [27:07.030 --> 27:08.930] Except that it's almost entirely proprietary. [27:09.430 --> 27:09.490] Right. [27:09.490 --> 27:10.790] That's a pretty big except. [27:11.170 --> 27:11.310] Yes. [27:11.310 --> 27:15.710] But it is, was developed so deeply that, you know, you can really put things together. [27:16.050 --> 27:25.630] And I think even in Max MSP, if you stuck to really simple objects, you could still create some pretty interesting emergent behaviors, because it gets out of control at some point. [27:25.830 --> 27:34.850] And the nice thing about being an artist when you're trying to program this stuff is that, you know, you know just enough to get the job done, and then you let the machine take over. [27:35.090 --> 27:35.510] Right. [27:35.790 --> 27:36.390] For context. [27:36.590 --> 27:37.390] It does things that you never expected. [27:37.390 --> 27:43.830] For context, Max MSP is a piece of software that can deconstruct elements of audio and video, and you can link them up in very interesting ways. [27:44.590 --> 27:44.930] Oh, right. [27:44.930 --> 27:46.410] Are you ready to play this? [27:46.670 --> 27:46.850] Yeah. [27:47.010 --> 27:47.350] Do you want to show? [27:47.710 --> 27:47.870] Sure. [27:49.090 --> 27:49.630] Just show. [27:52.650 --> 27:55.410] So this, this does actually have the Sackboy in it. [27:56.790 --> 28:03.470] Even though we don't really use the Sackboy or girl, actually there's Sackgirls too. [28:03.470 --> 28:04.470] Thank you. [28:07.570 --> 28:11.190] But this was just a very straightforward experiment with sound objects. [30:04.660 --> 30:05.050] Disgusting. [30:17.550 --> 30:17.950] Okay. [30:18.210 --> 30:19.470] Time left it at the end there. [30:19.790 --> 30:20.690] You gotta have the explosion. [30:21.070 --> 30:21.570] You ready next? [30:21.790 --> 30:22.670] Can I sit there? [30:22.810 --> 30:22.890] Yeah. [30:23.090 --> 30:23.270] Can I switch? [30:26.690 --> 30:27.430] Is it not working? [30:27.930 --> 30:28.090] Okay. [30:30.530 --> 30:32.370] So there's obviously a bit of overlap. [30:32.770 --> 30:34.550] Actually, probably amongst all three of us. [30:34.750 --> 30:38.630] Tamara and I work together, so we have a lot of the same interests. [30:40.330 --> 30:48.370] So I'm going to talk a little bit about, since it's a hackers conference, talk a little bit about hacking game engines very briefly. [30:48.530 --> 30:50.130] And just, I don't want to do like a history here. [30:50.250 --> 30:50.850] I've done it before. [30:51.810 --> 30:53.450] It's not that interesting to me anymore. [30:53.450 --> 31:01.350] But I mean, just to give you a little bit of perspective, to create context for what we do now. [31:02.430 --> 31:08.270] So I kind of started working in Machinima, I don't know, in 2005, which was pretty late. [31:08.570 --> 31:10.450] Machinima, so yeah, define Machinima. [31:10.690 --> 31:17.150] So Machinima is the real-time, the use of real-time computer graphics engines or video game engines to create a cinematic production. [31:17.590 --> 31:20.690] It can be narrative or it can be more experimental, like video art. [31:20.690 --> 31:22.670] There's been a lot of different types. [31:23.170 --> 31:34.570] But basically the big thing that differentiated it from like speedruns and various other types of recorded game material, or let's play videos now, you see a lot of those on YouTube, is the narrative aspect. [31:35.490 --> 31:42.350] So in 1996, there was a video called Diary of a Camper, made by a Quake gaming clan, the Rangers. [31:42.930 --> 31:46.250] Some of you might know about that if you have ever looked up Machinima. [31:47.330 --> 31:58.350] And it was the first time that basically Quake id software built into the game Quake, a feature that allowed you to save the data from your game, from your death match essentially, right? [31:58.610 --> 32:00.710] And you could then share the data. [32:00.870 --> 32:02.530] It wasn't a video file, it was just data. [32:02.670 --> 32:09.190] And if you loaded it into your game engine, your Quake game, it would play back the same match that that person had. [32:09.190 --> 32:11.390] So essentially it was like video. [32:11.630 --> 32:27.390] And there's a whole conceptual aspect to the difference between those two things that obviously this is not the day to do that, but I think it's super interesting that you have, you know, video is very linear and data, you know, it still is basically playing back in a linear fashion, [32:27.530 --> 32:35.350] but it's recreating the entire thing on the fly, as opposed to having it frozen in media in the usual sense. [32:37.350 --> 32:43.350] So just the possible... the fact that id put that feature in the game was very forward-thinking. [32:43.530 --> 32:46.230] They realized at that time in 1996, it's a long time ago, right? [32:46.410 --> 32:47.810] It's 30 years ago? [32:48.350 --> 32:48.830] Is that right? [32:48.910 --> 32:49.150] 20. [32:49.310 --> 32:49.590] 20 years. [32:49.650 --> 32:50.550] My math is really good. [32:50.730 --> 32:51.970] This is why I'm not a programmer. [32:52.910 --> 32:59.210] So they realized even back then that this was something that gamers were going to like. [32:59.210 --> 33:02.510] They're going to want to be able to record their games and do things with them. [33:02.670 --> 33:09.070] And it basically extended the shelf life of the game because, you know, people would be interested in it for longer if, you know, they could do more stuff with it besides play it. [33:10.590 --> 33:13.870] So that basically gave birth to Machinima, what we now know as Machinima. [33:15.870 --> 33:24.050] And that's had a weird past, but essentially it's interesting that it started not necessarily from a hack. [33:24.190 --> 33:28.090] I mean, there was a hack in the sense that they were thinking about a game differently when they made that video. [33:29.190 --> 33:30.910] I could show you a little piece of it. [33:30.990 --> 33:32.050] Let me just do that real quick. [33:32.830 --> 33:35.570] It's not very interesting by today's standards. [33:35.750 --> 33:38.670] It's interesting mostly in that it's really, really low poly. [33:39.330 --> 33:40.830] So you don't see that much anymore. [33:41.770 --> 33:43.710] So I guess I just have to drag it over there. [33:43.870 --> 33:44.070] Yeah. [33:44.590 --> 33:44.770] Okay. [33:46.450 --> 33:48.030] So you probably can't even see that. [33:48.170 --> 33:54.590] It's so low poly you couldn't even get enough light pixels to actually describe objects very well. [33:56.430 --> 33:58.450] But this is what Quake looked like. [33:58.590 --> 34:02.150] It was a very early game, early 3D game. [34:03.910 --> 34:05.930] So it's kind of beautiful in its own way. [34:06.770 --> 34:10.390] You would not know that there was a story here unless you watched the whole thing. [34:10.390 --> 34:12.330] But let me just take it from me. [34:12.390 --> 34:13.210] There's a story there. [34:15.690 --> 34:21.130] So I think what's interesting there is that they're adding the story element to it was a sort of a hack. [34:21.270 --> 34:23.210] It was a hack in the way they were thinking about video games. [34:23.830 --> 34:26.950] The concept of it hacked the concept of video games, if you will. [34:27.250 --> 34:31.050] But it was also enabled by id Software building that feature into the game. [34:31.050 --> 34:36.630] So right from the birth of Machinima, there was this dual force that propelled it forward. [34:36.830 --> 34:39.550] One was the users wanting to hack it and do more with it. [34:39.650 --> 34:47.190] And the other was the companies trying to keep up with what they were doing within the realm that would not upset their lawyers. [34:47.450 --> 34:50.290] That's the other thing which I've gone into in detail in the past. [34:50.330 --> 34:53.070] But we'll kind of skim over that for the sake of this talk. [34:54.550 --> 35:02.710] So jumping forward almost like nine years, in 2005 I started a video series on the Internet called The Spartan Life. [35:03.130 --> 35:04.570] And it began with a hack. [35:05.330 --> 35:10.730] In Halo 2, the only way to get a camera mode, you couldn't like film, you know, you couldn't really film... [35:10.730 --> 35:13.310] You could film the game if you got the output of the video. [35:13.670 --> 35:15.970] But you would always have a gun in your way, right? [35:16.170 --> 35:23.390] So somebody figured out if you pick up a skull in this one game called Oddball and you press this button and you fire your gun at the same time. [35:23.570 --> 35:28.430] You drop the skull and the gun and you have a completely clear view, which essentially is a camera, right? [35:28.610 --> 35:31.650] So we would get two people in the game, have them do that. [35:31.650 --> 35:36.330] So every time at the beginning of our shoot, we'd have to go through this ritual of, you know, get the oddball. [35:36.470 --> 35:38.870] So it'd have to be in this particular game type called Oddball. [35:39.230 --> 35:44.210] We'd drop the skull, drop the gun, then we had our two cameras, we'd tape the output of those two Xboxes. [35:44.410 --> 35:48.030] And on the third one, I would be moving around as the host of the show. [35:48.030 --> 35:51.170] We'd invite people in on Xbox Live and they would be the guests. [35:51.450 --> 35:55.370] So the two camera people would constantly be following us around and videotaping us essentially. [35:56.170 --> 36:02.710] So it started with a hack and then in Halo 3, Bungie just threw in theater mode because they could. [36:03.450 --> 36:09.870] And theater mode was sort of like an update of what id Software did with Quake where you could basically record the game data. [36:09.870 --> 36:17.790] So every bullet that's fired, every person that runs this way, that way, the look of their avatar, everything is remembered in data. [36:17.970 --> 36:24.270] And then you can play it back what they call film clips, which is a really weird title for something that's absolutely digital. [36:24.570 --> 36:27.650] They just decided to call it film clips because, hey, let's go old school, you know. [36:29.110 --> 36:31.010] And then you could stop it, start it. [36:31.150 --> 36:33.450] So let me just... I have a theater mode clip here. [36:34.070 --> 36:34.990] I was going to show you. [36:36.070 --> 36:36.790] So am I done? [36:37.150 --> 36:38.410] No, no, no, you have 10 minutes. [36:38.450 --> 36:39.010] Okay, cool. [36:39.750 --> 36:41.370] So I'm just going to show you this and I'm going to move on. [36:42.090 --> 36:43.790] So this is Halo 3. [36:44.030 --> 36:46.650] So you'll see the camera's attached to the avatar there. [36:46.810 --> 36:47.930] But look, it just detached. [36:48.210 --> 36:49.410] And now it's flying 3. [36:49.750 --> 36:52.430] So what this is is you're seeing a replayed video game. [36:52.730 --> 36:56.550] You're just watching the data recreate the game on the fly in the game engine. [36:56.810 --> 37:02.150] And you can attach to your avatar and then see he detached again where he's flying out a little further away. [37:03.130 --> 37:05.090] Watch him kind of swing out to the right up here. [37:05.990 --> 37:09.290] So in this way you can let the game play back. [37:11.470 --> 37:12.810] You can let the game play back. [37:13.290 --> 37:15.770] So you could basically create your... [37:15.770 --> 37:17.570] In our case, we did an interview, right? [37:17.650 --> 37:19.910] We didn't actually play the game the way you're supposed to. [37:19.950 --> 37:21.030] We just did an interview in the game. [37:21.210 --> 37:23.410] We'd shoot each other and blow things up and all that because it's fun. [37:23.710 --> 37:29.550] But we then replay that game and connect the output to, you know, digitize it. [37:29.610 --> 37:31.590] Well, essentially a capture box, right? [37:31.790 --> 37:33.890] And we capture the video one shot at a time. [37:33.890 --> 37:35.630] So we get a long shot of each scene. [37:35.710 --> 37:38.530] Then we move in for close-ups just the way you do in a film, right? [37:39.090 --> 37:43.570] The nice thing about it is that all the acting and blocking has already been done. [37:43.910 --> 37:50.010] So the camera person doesn't have to, you know, worry about, Well, I got the shot right, but the actor messed it up. [37:50.210 --> 37:51.470] You know, you've already got... [37:51.470 --> 37:54.610] You already know where your good takes for the acting or the moving around are. [37:55.010 --> 37:56.670] And all you have to do is worry about the camera. [37:57.770 --> 38:01.030] So basically, so essentially the same thing happened there, right? [38:01.150 --> 38:04.150] Is it started with a glitch and it became a feature. [38:04.650 --> 38:07.030] And that's kind of the dual nature of Machinima. [38:07.210 --> 38:13.010] And a lot of game hacking is that, you know, people want to push these systems further because they can, right? [38:13.150 --> 38:14.610] These really complex systems. [38:15.090 --> 38:19.450] And the game companies want to help them do it because it extends the shelf life of the game. [38:19.450 --> 38:22.350] But they all want to also want to be careful about the legalities involved. [38:23.130 --> 38:23.810] Bullshit, I call. [38:23.930 --> 38:25.370] But, you know, that's the way they are. [38:25.810 --> 38:28.390] So, so I'm going to jump forward now. [38:28.990 --> 38:30.930] Basically, I'm just going to try to trim some of this. [38:34.150 --> 38:35.430] So in what was it? [38:36.850 --> 38:37.190] 2010? [38:37.630 --> 38:38.630] Little Big Planet one? [38:38.830 --> 38:40.050] No, something like that. [38:40.630 --> 38:41.290] 2008, I think. [38:41.410 --> 38:41.750] 2008? [38:41.990 --> 38:42.110] Wow. [38:42.110 --> 38:44.890] So the first Little Big Planet was maybe 2008, somewhere thereabouts. [38:45.010 --> 38:46.390] For some reason, I didn't bother to look that up. [38:47.130 --> 38:47.710] Five minutes? [38:47.850 --> 38:48.010] Eight. [38:48.230 --> 38:48.750] Eight minutes. [38:49.430 --> 38:49.790] Okay. [38:49.890 --> 38:53.090] So I'm going to just jump in real quick into Little Big Planet. [38:53.190 --> 38:54.870] I'm going to show you kind of how it's... [38:54.870 --> 38:56.890] I mean, you already seen a little bit what Tamara showed you. [38:57.450 --> 38:59.910] And it's kind of come pretty far since then. [39:00.890 --> 39:01.150] Yeah. [39:01.730 --> 39:01.830] Yeah. [39:02.670 --> 39:03.170] All right. [39:03.870 --> 39:04.230] Thanks. [39:07.250 --> 39:08.710] So I'm going to go down there. [39:08.830 --> 39:10.310] Would you just keep your finger on this? [39:10.550 --> 39:10.790] Oops. [39:10.790 --> 39:12.050] Failed to load map. [39:15.050 --> 39:16.150] We were so close. [39:19.550 --> 39:20.650] That's not where it is. [39:21.390 --> 39:22.050] I'm going to go up there. [39:22.170 --> 39:22.630] So would you just run? [39:22.890 --> 39:23.190] Yeah. [39:37.420 --> 39:37.780] Okay. [39:38.060 --> 39:38.600] I'm back. [39:39.080 --> 39:40.640] So this might take a few minutes to load. [39:40.780 --> 39:41.900] It's a very, very big map. [39:42.040 --> 39:42.980] So one of the things... [39:42.980 --> 39:44.580] First, I should tell you what this is. [39:44.660 --> 39:45.080] You're going to see. [39:45.760 --> 39:51.160] So Tamara and I have been doing these kind of conceptual art pieces in Little Big Planet for a while. [39:51.160 --> 39:52.140] We really like that. [39:52.760 --> 39:53.340] And I kind of... [39:53.340 --> 39:56.240] Before that, I had done The Spartan Life, which was more of a talk show. [39:56.380 --> 39:57.320] It's kind of more of a narrative. [39:58.200 --> 39:59.360] It's a little bit more straightforward. [40:00.400 --> 40:02.840] And I just keep kind of bouncing between those two extremes. [40:02.940 --> 40:09.820] And I thought, why don't I try to find a good, happy middle ground where it's still pretty conceptually odd. [40:10.240 --> 40:12.060] But it's understandable. [40:12.340 --> 40:14.000] And it's a form that people might get. [40:14.280 --> 40:16.220] So for some reason, I decided to make a musical. [40:17.260 --> 40:19.000] So this is essentially... [40:19.000 --> 40:19.160] Oh. [40:19.660 --> 40:20.040] Okay. [40:20.180 --> 40:21.020] I got to go over here. [40:21.520 --> 40:22.020] Yeah. [40:22.140 --> 40:22.320] Okay. [40:22.320 --> 40:22.440] Okay. [40:23.560 --> 40:24.760] So this is essentially... [40:24.760 --> 40:25.660] I'm not going to sing with this. [40:25.780 --> 40:27.720] But normally there would be three singers on the stage. [40:27.900 --> 40:30.180] And what you're seeing would be the backdrop. [40:30.400 --> 40:31.180] Essentially the scenery. [40:31.520 --> 40:31.720] Okay. [40:32.240 --> 40:35.620] I haven't done this in about four months. [40:35.620 --> 40:37.120] So I'm probably going to mess it up. [40:37.520 --> 40:38.920] But you probably won't even notice. [40:39.360 --> 40:39.460] Okay. [40:39.780 --> 40:42.780] So everything you see and hear is done in the game engine. [40:42.920 --> 40:43.560] Including the music. [40:43.720 --> 40:46.280] The music is created with sequencers in the game engine itself. [40:47.140 --> 40:47.540] Okay. [40:47.820 --> 40:50.830] So let's see if I can... [40:51.280 --> 40:51.700] No? [40:53.680 --> 40:55.500] I don't remember what to do. [40:58.940 --> 40:59.360] Wow. [41:04.020 --> 41:04.440] Hmm. [41:06.020 --> 41:08.190] I'm sure there was something I was supposed to do here. [41:11.520 --> 41:13.120] I'm probably not in the control-inator. [41:18.710 --> 41:19.070] Uh... [41:19.070 --> 41:19.290] Nope. [41:22.440 --> 41:22.760] Okay. [41:41.000 --> 41:41.720] Try it a little bit. [42:08.620 --> 42:11.240] So the name of this is Songs from the Robot Apocalypse. [42:11.420 --> 42:13.840] And you can see that the robots have kind of taken over Brooklyn here. [43:26.950 --> 43:28.640] So I'm just going to pause for a second here. [43:29.080 --> 43:31.020] Just to kind of explain what you've seen here. [43:31.020 --> 43:35.080] So basically there's no singing up until the point where we saw this stage. [43:35.260 --> 43:39.680] And essentially you're supposed to be inside of the home of the main protagonist. [43:40.160 --> 43:42.520] And he's singing about these robots that he's created. [43:42.540 --> 43:46.520] Because he's a frustrated musician who's trying to create great electronic music. [43:46.860 --> 43:49.140] But he can't make music as good as the robots. [43:49.420 --> 43:51.380] And this is the best he can do essentially. [43:52.500 --> 43:52.980] All right. [43:53.040 --> 43:55.060] So I'm not going to add anything else. [43:55.200 --> 43:56.520] We'll just kind of go through the rest of this. [45:52.100 --> 45:52.420] Okay. [45:52.640 --> 45:54.100] So I've gone over a little bit I think. [45:54.300 --> 45:55.270] So maybe we'll just... [45:55.270 --> 45:55.860] Thanks. [45:56.640 --> 45:58.820] I don't know how much that you could understand without the lyrics. [45:59.160 --> 46:00.730] But hopefully it meant something to you. [46:01.960 --> 46:02.740] So I'm just... [46:02.740 --> 46:05.940] We'll just go right to Jeremy now, I guess. [46:06.140 --> 46:07.240] Would you like to come back up here? [46:07.300 --> 46:07.460] Yeah. [46:08.620 --> 46:09.060] All right. [46:09.230 --> 46:10.020] I'm gonna... [46:10.020 --> 46:11.340] I'm sure you all have some questions. [46:11.480 --> 46:13.320] So please feel free to start lining up in front of the mic. [46:13.320 --> 46:15.440] I'm just gonna ask one question to kick it off. [46:16.690 --> 46:22.360] So Chris, as we've seen here, you've definitely been working in this machinima theme for quite a while now. [46:22.540 --> 46:24.840] Creating different sorts of projects and different engines. [46:25.280 --> 46:29.730] And one thing we didn't even discuss here is your long career as a chiptune musician as well. [46:31.190 --> 46:31.620] So... [46:31.620 --> 46:32.860] Why would we want to do that? [46:33.500 --> 46:34.140] Fair enough. [46:34.360 --> 46:35.500] But I am curious to hear. [46:35.730 --> 46:41.500] In each of these instances, you know, they have varied wildly in terms of their tone, in terms of how they communicate. [46:41.500 --> 46:42.660] What do you sort of envision... [46:43.040 --> 46:45.600] Who do you envision the audiences for each of these? [46:45.700 --> 46:47.480] And how do you think it changes from piece to piece? [46:47.800 --> 46:56.230] And to the extent you're even comfortable with this designation, how do you think it sort of fits in this low art slash high... the slow culture, high culture dichotomy? [46:56.480 --> 46:56.780] Yeah. [46:56.900 --> 46:57.600] Really good framing. [46:57.770 --> 47:02.580] I think that was really good for you to kind of put that framing on the talk tonight. [47:02.580 --> 47:03.520] That was really nice. [47:04.040 --> 47:04.770] Because it is... [47:04.770 --> 47:05.920] It's something that Tamara and I... [47:05.920 --> 47:07.700] Tamara will talk about this too a little bit, I think. [47:08.460 --> 47:09.500] It certainly can. [47:09.500 --> 47:12.190] And it's something... [47:12.190 --> 47:16.200] You know, I feel like I am forever at a loss as to what any audience wants. [47:16.580 --> 47:17.960] I mean, I kind of... [47:18.460 --> 47:19.560] Maybe it's just a personal thing. [47:19.580 --> 47:19.960] I don't know. [47:20.080 --> 47:24.080] But I basically just make what I like and look for a response. [47:24.880 --> 47:27.420] I try to branch out a lot. [47:27.660 --> 47:30.340] If anything, maybe I've done too many disparate things. [47:30.340 --> 47:36.860] So somebody might like my chip music, but they look at, you know, Robot Apocalypse and then they're like, what the hell is this? [47:36.980 --> 47:37.730] That's not chip music. [47:38.800 --> 47:40.120] So it's kind of hard to tell. [47:40.230 --> 47:43.300] But I think I started to explain it that, you know, that... [47:43.300 --> 47:50.230] I try to hit that sweet spot between completely insane artwork and, you know, something that an audience might at least understand. [47:50.540 --> 47:52.780] I mean, understanding the work is very important. [47:54.560 --> 48:02.480] So Folkai and Loci definitely gets, you know, we intentionally allow it to be as esoteric as we feel it needs to be in each particular map. [48:03.620 --> 48:06.190] But this obviously is a little bit more focused. [48:06.820 --> 48:09.580] And actually, I made it specifically with MAGFest in mind. [48:09.820 --> 48:11.400] So hopefully MAGFest will like it. [48:11.620 --> 48:14.460] I think the idea of working with narrative too. [48:14.820 --> 48:26.460] I think just having spoken earlier about how we were interested in sidestepping narratives by, you know, doing away with a Sackboy avatar in Little Big Planet just so we could freely create. [48:27.740 --> 48:30.900] You know, so having that narrative, I think, gives access immediately. [48:31.770 --> 48:37.340] Otherwise, yeah, esoteric is a big theme in both of our artistic lives. [48:38.230 --> 48:38.620] Question? [48:38.820 --> 48:40.480] We only have a few minutes left. [48:40.480 --> 48:43.520] So let's turn to the audience and do some rapid-fire answers. [48:44.620 --> 48:45.320] Sorry, folks. [48:45.920 --> 48:48.020] I guess, I don't know if this is ready for a rapid-fire answer. [48:48.140 --> 48:50.080] But I guess my question, art's amazing. [48:50.080 --> 48:52.900] And so something important about art is preserving it, right? [48:53.080 --> 48:55.480] And keeping it around so people in the future can see it. [48:55.560 --> 48:59.300] And we do this really well with sort of, you know, sculptures and museums right now. [48:59.690 --> 49:03.420] But I guess I'm curious about how you guys are thinking about preserving this for the future. [49:03.660 --> 49:05.240] What are the museums of the future going to look like? [49:05.270 --> 49:06.520] How are they going to display this work? [49:09.080 --> 49:10.820] Well, that's a very good question. [49:10.980 --> 49:11.340] Thank you. [49:12.040 --> 49:18.380] I mean, currently, you know, video art in general is sort of an issue when it comes to how should it be sold? [49:18.380 --> 49:22.400] How should it be displayed in museums, archived? [49:23.340 --> 49:27.520] I mean, you know, we can't really sell these works. [49:27.730 --> 49:31.390] We haven't tried yet, but, you know, they... [49:31.960 --> 49:33.660] I mean, we haven't even spoken... [49:33.660 --> 49:38.020] I guess we have spoken to Media Molecule maybe about trying to get some of our work out there. [49:38.020 --> 49:41.620] And they think that what we do is interesting, Media Molecule being the initial developer. [49:41.820 --> 49:45.820] But I don't actually really know. [49:45.960 --> 49:47.560] We do perform it mostly. [49:48.040 --> 49:53.120] We haven't made DVDs yet, but we were actually thinking about that, right? [49:53.420 --> 49:53.780] Yeah. [49:53.840 --> 49:54.270] I mean... [49:54.270 --> 49:56.060] Yeah, if I can just jump in really briefly. [49:56.320 --> 50:00.690] You know, I think that preserving this in video is one thing that we definitely do. [50:00.690 --> 50:02.900] But as you can see, it's just not the same. [50:03.120 --> 50:08.040] I mean, I don't know how much you could see what Tamara and I were doing in the controllers, but this is very performative work. [50:09.060 --> 50:11.880] I mean, I messed up a bunch of cues in that last thing. [50:12.040 --> 50:17.020] You probably... when the toaster was blowing that dude away, it was supposed to destroy that last wall. [50:17.460 --> 50:22.000] I, like, didn't hit the tag sensor in the right angle, and it just didn't destroy the wall. [50:22.460 --> 50:26.620] So, you know, it really is kind of a very focused performative type of work. [50:26.770 --> 50:34.520] So the only way to really preserve it correctly would be to make it, you know, playable on some other platform that exists beyond the PlayStation, which... [50:34.520 --> 50:35.770] Good luck with that. [50:35.900 --> 50:37.100] Do we have time for maybe one or two more questions? [50:37.560 --> 50:38.000] Yeah. [50:38.270 --> 50:39.730] So I think you got to one of mine. [50:40.120 --> 50:49.740] You... when you showed the three pods in the beginning of your presentation, you're saying those three pods combined to create what you... what we saw on the screen afterwards. [50:49.740 --> 50:53.200] And you were controlling it with a... some kind of control? [50:53.400 --> 50:55.080] Or do you have to write code to do this or what? [50:55.460 --> 50:56.880] Oh, right. [50:57.140 --> 50:57.640] Yes. [50:58.120 --> 51:04.900] There were three pods that had... that behaved differently with three different sets of particle objects. [51:05.940 --> 51:08.840] And I was showing sort of the results of playing each pod. [51:09.080 --> 51:13.080] And I was playing it with... with this game controller. [51:13.460 --> 51:19.730] And the controls of these buttons were actually mapped to objects in the little big plane. [51:19.740 --> 51:22.800] planet level building tool kit. [51:23.420 --> 51:26.190] Which, unfortunately, we didn't really get to show today. [51:26.460 --> 51:43.240] But if you look online and you look up little big planet level building tools, it'll show you an array of, you know, sensors and various microchips and other behaviors that you can, you know, program into these objects that you can build with materials. [51:43.520 --> 51:44.920] Does that make sense? [51:45.700 --> 51:46.230] Yes. [51:46.230 --> 51:47.240] Should we get our last question? [51:48.100 --> 51:48.420] Shoot. [51:48.560 --> 51:50.280] I kind of have two, but maybe they can be kind of short. [51:50.440 --> 51:53.280] One of which is, how long did that take, Chris? [51:53.920 --> 51:54.340] Good question. [51:54.340 --> 51:56.640] And the pods look slightly simpler to make, but... [51:56.640 --> 52:06.500] And the other one is just, like, what is your favorite weird little feature or affordance or property to play with each of you within a little big planet? [52:06.500 --> 52:08.140] Really quickly, that took... [52:08.140 --> 52:08.460] I don't know. [52:08.520 --> 52:09.560] I've been working on that piece. [52:09.740 --> 52:13.120] I probably worked on it for about eight months, that particular thing I just showed. [52:13.880 --> 52:15.100] Obviously, not consistently. [52:15.100 --> 52:16.140] I work for a living. [52:16.420 --> 52:17.880] I don't get paid for this work, generally. [52:18.120 --> 52:19.510] I get to travel and stuff, but... [52:20.920 --> 52:21.730] And favorite... [52:21.730 --> 52:34.270] I mean, let me draw a dichotomy between that work, which is really kind of, you know, 90% perspiration and the foci and loci work, which is more about we think about it and we can conceive of something we think might work in an interesting way. [52:34.420 --> 52:35.460] We allow it to break. [52:35.600 --> 52:36.580] We allow it to do with this other stuff. [52:36.730 --> 52:43.540] It's still really hard work, but there's a bit more of a reward in a sense of you're surprised by it every time you play it. [52:45.020 --> 52:45.460] Yes. [52:45.690 --> 52:47.080] You have a favorite thing? [52:47.140 --> 52:55.730] I would say the tag sensors, which will transmit signals based on, you know, player proximity or object proximity, tags and tag sensors. [52:56.660 --> 52:57.040] Yes. [52:57.270 --> 52:58.000] The programming... [52:58.000 --> 53:02.820] The question was before we program any of this, we kind of soft program it. [53:02.940 --> 53:06.060] I don't know what the word would be, but there's no actual number crunching. [53:06.360 --> 53:09.380] Well, you do have to know math a little bit, but it's basically drag and drop. [53:09.770 --> 53:09.840] Okay. [53:09.980 --> 53:12.160] But they put in logic gates and things like that. [53:12.200 --> 53:13.780] So you can really combine things to... [53:13.780 --> 53:21.360] If you get to know the quirks of the behaviors of each of the objects, you can get to build these really complex machines to do things that the game was never intended to do. [53:21.360 --> 53:22.520] Some music theory too, actually. [53:22.770 --> 53:23.320] Yeah, music theory. [53:23.320 --> 53:23.640] Which is interesting. [53:24.270 --> 53:24.420] Right. [53:25.800 --> 53:26.160] Okay. [53:26.300 --> 53:26.900] What do you think? [53:26.900 --> 53:28.800] Gus, is that satisfactory? [53:30.720 --> 53:32.020] Well, I'd love to see you. [53:32.100 --> 53:32.920] I haven't seen you yet. [53:33.060 --> 53:34.270] So let's talk more. [53:35.420 --> 53:35.840] All right. [53:35.860 --> 53:36.600] I think that's it. [53:36.700 --> 53:37.500] I think that's our time. [53:38.080 --> 53:39.230] Thanks very much, everybody. [53:40.560 --> 53:41.140] Thank you. [53:42.960 --> 53:46.440] And thanks so much to the tech crew for pulling us together like at the last minute there. [53:46.560 --> 53:46.920] It was great. [53:47.140 --> 53:47.920] Really appreciate it. [53:48.040 --> 53:48.800] Thank you so much. [53:48.920 --> 53:50.600] Maya and Andrew and everybody else. [53:50.730 --> 53:51.020] And Bernie. [53:51.580 --> 53:51.980] Thank you.