[00:00.840 --> 00:01.840]  What is up?
[00:02.000 --> 00:03.920]  I hope you're having fun.
[00:05.060 --> 00:06.000]  I am.
[00:06.580 --> 00:07.100]  Yeah.
[00:07.900 --> 00:08.420]  Sick.
[00:08.680 --> 00:10.480]  Oh, this audience is so good.
[00:10.760 --> 00:11.320]  Oh my god.
[00:11.480 --> 00:13.280]  The last one was like, no one would laugh.
[00:13.380 --> 00:14.660]  And I'm like, I'm really funny.
[00:15.720 --> 00:17.540]  Um, that wasn't funny.
[00:17.620 --> 00:18.020]  I'm sorry.
[00:18.260 --> 00:22.360]  Okay, so this next talk is called Off The Hook.
[00:23.380 --> 00:23.900]  AMA.
[00:24.280 --> 00:28.400]  And if you don't know what AMA stands for, it means ask me anything.
[00:28.400 --> 00:30.860]  So, get ready.
[00:31.260 --> 00:44.100]  Um, and the people at the, on the, at this table, um, we've got Gila, we've got Rob, and we've got Alex.
[00:45.200 --> 00:49.380]  And there's a dog here too, um, named Cleo.
[00:49.700 --> 00:50.740]  Um, okay.
[00:51.060 --> 00:51.860]  A round of applause.
[00:57.380 --> 00:58.140]  Okay.
[01:02.370 --> 01:03.070]  Somewhere.
[01:03.330 --> 01:03.570]  I don't know.
[01:03.690 --> 01:04.630]  There we are.
[01:05.470 --> 01:05.990]  Okay.
[01:06.230 --> 01:06.570]  Nope.
[01:07.570 --> 01:08.090]  Now.
[01:08.350 --> 01:08.690]  No.
[01:08.970 --> 01:09.250]  Nope.
[01:09.550 --> 01:09.630]  Nope.
[01:09.890 --> 01:10.510]  Oh, man.
[01:12.530 --> 01:13.230]  What happened?
[01:13.550 --> 01:13.890]  Wait, that sounded.
[01:14.110 --> 01:14.290]  No.
[01:14.450 --> 01:14.970]  No.
[01:15.430 --> 01:15.790]  Wait.
[01:16.150 --> 01:16.550]  Yes.
[01:17.090 --> 01:17.550]  Thanks, gang.
[01:18.270 --> 01:18.630]  Awesome.
[01:18.870 --> 01:19.010]  Hi.
[01:20.570 --> 01:21.910]  Did you hit the switch?
[01:22.790 --> 01:23.830]  I have a switch.
[01:23.970 --> 01:24.810]  I have a switch too.
[01:25.530 --> 01:26.370]  Alex is switchless.
[01:26.810 --> 01:27.050]  Yeah.
[01:27.570 --> 01:29.030]  I've always suspected that about him.
[01:29.290 --> 01:30.070]  All right.
[01:31.090 --> 01:41.470]  Um, so like we said, it really would not be a real, off-the-hook experience if we didn't have some kind of technical issue at the last minute, especially with Alex's tech.
[01:41.630 --> 01:42.670]  I think this is only appropriate.
[01:42.850 --> 01:42.910]  That's right.
[01:43.150 --> 01:43.330]  Yeah.
[01:43.490 --> 01:43.690]  Absolutely.
[01:44.130 --> 01:51.550]  Um, you're not used to seeing our faces and that's fair, but you may know us from off-the-hook or off-the-hook overtime.
[01:52.270 --> 01:54.370]  Uh, overtime nation, are you here?
[01:55.050 --> 01:55.450]  Anybody?
[01:56.350 --> 01:56.750]  Yeah.
[01:57.210 --> 01:58.150]  Thank you very much.
[01:59.050 --> 02:06.770]  And why don't we, you know, talk about how this, this panel, I guess, has, um, arisen over the last, let's say, probably 12 hours or something like that.
[02:06.770 --> 02:07.110]  Yeah.
[02:07.190 --> 02:12.610]  So we appreciate you all coming and, and, um, and listening to off-the-hook and supporting WBAI in the program.
[02:12.930 --> 02:23.270]  Uh, sadly, one of my co-presenters at the panel that we were supposed to have at, uh, at 12 o'clock is, is really ill from, uh, something that happened to B-sides.
[02:23.410 --> 02:25.750]  Apparently everybody over at B-sides in Vegas got sick.
[02:25.870 --> 02:27.510]  That's what happens when you go to B-sides.
[02:27.650 --> 02:28.870]  I guess you just have to remember that.
[02:29.050 --> 02:30.330]  The B stands for bacteria.
[02:31.250 --> 02:31.990]  That's right.
[02:32.410 --> 02:32.550]  Yeah.
[02:32.970 --> 02:35.950]  So, um, this is such an important slot.
[02:36.090 --> 02:39.850]  We wanted to fill it with something good and interesting that would, uh, pique people's interest.
[02:40.010 --> 02:44.370]  And so we figured, you know, let's just do kind of an off-the-hook ask me anything session.
[02:44.690 --> 02:48.790]  And so Rob Gill and I are here, uh, to answer all of your questions.
[02:48.930 --> 02:51.770]  We're going to keep the, the whole session open to questions.
[02:51.910 --> 02:55.590]  Just think of it as if it's like a call-in show or off-the-hook overtime.
[02:56.010 --> 02:56.010]  Yes.
[02:56.450 --> 03:02.590]  Um, we, we could start by just, uh, saying what off-the-hook is for anyone who may have wandered in here, um, unawares.
[03:03.050 --> 03:07.650]  Um, off-the-hook, off-the-hook is a radio show that Emmanuel Goldstein started back in 1988.
[03:08.410 --> 03:22.330]  In fact, a few days ago would have been the premiere, would have been the anniversary of the premiere of off-the-hook, except the show was, uh, scheduled to start in, uh, on August 12th, 1988, but the Empire State Building caught fire and that transmitting equipment,
[03:22.530 --> 03:24.050]  uh, was not up to the job at that point.
[03:24.070 --> 03:27.150]  So it was kicked forward to October of 1988.
[03:27.590 --> 03:32.670]  So we very nearly just had an anniversary, but if you didn't get us a card, that's okay, because you can wait till October.
[03:33.110 --> 03:33.430]  Yeah.
[03:33.670 --> 03:40.630]  And I have been listening to this show, so I think I started listening to it possibly in around 1993 or 1994.
[03:41.130 --> 03:43.790]  It was probably 1993, I think actually.
[03:44.210 --> 03:47.350]  And I mean, I was pretty young and I was living out on Long Island.
[03:47.650 --> 04:03.630]  And I remember I had a Walkman headphone and I used to have to string the wire from the Walkman, because that also acted as the antenna, of course, uh, over my bedpost in a certain way in order to get 99.5 all the way out in Suffolk County and Long Island,
[04:03.630 --> 04:04.830]  but I got it.
[04:04.930 --> 04:06.750]  And I'll never forget the first time I tuned in.
[04:06.910 --> 04:09.590]  I think, Oh my God, this, this show is so incredibly cool.
[04:09.970 --> 04:21.830]  And now, um, I find myself on it for probably, I think consistently for the last 10 years and a couple of years before that, I was on, um, consistently for maybe two or three years.
[04:22.350 --> 04:26.530]  And, uh, it is very often the highlight of my week to do this.
[04:26.650 --> 04:32.550]  Prior to COVID, we used to all go into the studio down on Atlantic Avenue in Brooklyn.
[04:32.810 --> 04:39.270]  It used to be at, um, I think it was 505 8th Avenue back in the nineties and then 110 Wall Street back in the aughts.
[04:39.270 --> 04:39.750]  120 Wall.
[04:39.990 --> 04:41.030]  Well, 120 Wall Street.
[04:41.170 --> 04:41.430]  That's right.
[04:41.550 --> 04:41.710]  Yep.
[04:42.070 --> 04:43.070]  That was a good one.
[04:43.230 --> 04:44.610]  It was a cool place.
[04:45.250 --> 04:46.770]  And Hurricane Sandy killed the building basically.
[04:47.110 --> 04:47.110]  Yeah.
[04:47.310 --> 04:51.270]  Then we were up at, uh, CUNY in, um, where's that?
[04:51.570 --> 04:51.850]  City College.
[04:52.190 --> 04:52.190]  Yeah.
[04:52.230 --> 04:52.870]  City College, right?
[04:53.150 --> 04:53.670]  For 130.
[04:53.670 --> 04:58.310]  A couple of years up there, then Atlantic Avenue in Brooklyn, and then COVID hit.
[04:58.450 --> 05:12.670]  And now a lot of times we just connect into the station, but every Wednesday night was really wonderful because we'd all get together, we hang out, we do the show, we take phone calls, and then inevitably we would argue for about 45 minutes about where we were going to go and eat.
[05:13.090 --> 05:15.670]  We'd invite various people to come and join us.
[05:15.770 --> 05:21.430]  And then we'd pack into a car, usually really, really squeezed into a car, going from Brooklyn into the East Village.
[05:21.610 --> 05:24.010]  And then it was kind of party time every Wednesday night.
[05:24.170 --> 05:29.090]  I, I really miss those days, but we've tried to recreate them online, I think.
[05:29.430 --> 05:40.990]  Um, and still to this, to this day, I really enjoyed doing the show every week and arguing with Emmanuel and Kyle, and hopefully they'll be making an appearance at some point, I hope, shortly, gracing us with their presence.
[05:41.170 --> 05:44.690]  So I'll pass it over to you, Rob, to talk about your Off The Hook story.
[05:44.690 --> 05:54.570]  Yeah, I mean, Off The Hook was, uh, it was something that I also picked up in the early mid-90s, started listening, um, and thought everyone on it was really cool.
[05:54.870 --> 06:00.530]  And so later I would find myself getting involved in hacker culture in real life.
[06:00.790 --> 06:08.810]  In the mid-late 90s, I started going to 2600 meetings, started coming to HOPE, um, and started working on stuff with Emmanuel and the crew.
[06:09.350 --> 06:15.810]  And so I joined Off The Hook in 2008, and I've been on steadily since then.
[06:16.490 --> 06:18.050]  And it's, it's funny.
[06:18.250 --> 06:20.830]  One, one thing I really like is how the subject matter has evolved over the years.
[06:20.930 --> 06:30.870]  If you go back and listen to the first episode and all the episodes going back to 1988 are available on 2600.com, uh, except for, I think, one where the, uh, tape just disappeared.
[06:31.390 --> 06:32.870]  Um, and it was a tape at that point.
[06:33.090 --> 06:37.710]  But, uh, you listen to the early episodes and it's Emmanuel often by himself, I think, in the beginning.
[06:38.170 --> 06:41.370]  And it was, you know, welcome to Off The Hook, the show about phones.
[06:42.330 --> 06:43.110]  And that was it.
[06:43.470 --> 06:59.330]  Um, but, uh, as telecommunications have evolved, uh, we, the hacker sort of, uh, look at what's going on in the field of telecommunications, technology, politics, of course, activism, and all of that have, uh, have grown with the times.
[06:59.450 --> 07:01.390]  And it's something that I'm still very proud of.
[07:01.830 --> 07:08.950]  Um, it's something that actually sparked, um, a deep interest in me in audio and audio engineering.
[07:09.170 --> 07:10.830]  And that's something that I went on to do for work.
[07:11.230 --> 07:13.990]  Um, and yeah, it's, it's pretty great.
[07:14.090 --> 07:16.750]  And Gila, how did you get involved with Off The Hook?
[07:17.070 --> 07:18.210]  Well, thank you for asking.
[07:18.530 --> 07:21.110]  Um, I am the newest member of the panel.
[07:21.310 --> 07:24.490]  Um, I have been on the show consistently since 2020.
[07:25.070 --> 07:31.010]  But before that, starting in about 2017, I was the Off The Hook studio audience.
[07:31.010 --> 07:33.430]  I was the Off The Hook research department.
[07:33.890 --> 07:39.450]  Um, somebody would ask a question they didn't know the answer to, and I'd be frantically Googling in the back of the studio, and then I would text you the answer.
[07:40.050 --> 07:56.970]  Um, and then in the, on the New Year's show in January of 2020, Emmanuel called me up to the panel, and I felt like Courtney Cox in the Bruce Springsteen music video, where I'd been watching from the audience, then all of a sudden I got to be part of it.
[07:57.710 --> 08:02.050]  Um, and I've been on the, again, the panel consistently since 2020.
[08:02.390 --> 08:07.810]  Um, not least because it would be very hard for one person in our home to be on the panel and not the other.
[08:08.570 --> 08:11.810]  Um, we're married, we're married to each other.
[08:13.130 --> 08:14.090]  Important detail that.
[08:14.270 --> 08:15.070]  Yeah, it really is.
[08:15.610 --> 08:19.370]  Um, and it has been a phenomenal experience.
[08:19.770 --> 08:23.570]  Um, I had no context for Off The Hook when I first heard about it.
[08:23.650 --> 08:25.830]  I did not grow up in the New York area.
[08:26.650 --> 08:28.250]  I didn't know it existed.
[08:28.750 --> 08:33.330]  And then I moved here and I met Rob and Rob said, Hey, I'm on this radio show.
[08:33.450 --> 08:34.410]  You may want to check it out.
[08:34.690 --> 08:36.670]  And I said, Hey, this is incredibly cool.
[08:37.190 --> 08:39.570]  And then there's my story.
[08:39.790 --> 09:03.610]  And for the last two years, um, I have also been the moderator of the chat in Off The Hook Overtime, which is the YouTube free for me or show, which is kind of more like, I think we can say, um, where we take calls and talk to our audience in ways that we can't on the radio,
[09:03.630 --> 09:10.070]  because we, for a lot of reasons, we don't do it live on the air, but we have Overtime, which is phenomenal and fantastic.
[09:10.850 --> 09:15.130]  And I wield my band hammer with impunity, but I think it's fun.
[09:16.530 --> 09:16.930]  Excellent.
[09:17.090 --> 09:20.070]  And we have Cleo joining us here now, um, on stage.
[09:20.270 --> 09:29.690]  If you listen to the show, you probably have heard her barking in the background, perhaps over the last, uh, couple of years, but she insisted on being up here now.
[09:29.790 --> 09:31.370]  So she's, she's part of our panel.
[09:31.710 --> 09:32.270]  Right, Cleo?
[09:32.430 --> 09:32.630]  Yeah.
[09:33.330 --> 09:48.830]  Um, one thing I'll, I'll tell you guys about, about the show and kind of the mechanics of, of how it works is, um, and I think people are always, uh, interested to find this out, but, uh, we don't really have very much of an idea what we're going to speak about when we get onto the show itself.
[09:49.130 --> 10:00.970]  So, yeah, but the week before that, we pass around articles and, and people, you know, our listeners will send us articles and we'll read them, but we don't necessarily know what Emmanuel is going to bring up.
[10:01.070 --> 10:07.070]  We don't have a, um, a set agenda, unless there's some massive new story that we know we're going to cover.
[10:07.370 --> 10:11.170]  It's pretty much a surprise to us as soon as we get on the air.
[10:11.750 --> 10:17.430]  And, and for me, I feel like this is really great practice because as some of you probably know, I'm a lawyer.
[10:17.550 --> 10:18.550]  I'm the lawyer on the show.
[10:18.890 --> 10:21.450]  I'm the general counsel of the Ethereum name service.
[10:21.790 --> 10:28.090]  And being a lawyer, it's always good to be good on your feet and to be able to come up with some kind of response no matter what.
[10:28.630 --> 10:32.550]  Uh, you know, and, and Emmanuel is a great kind of foil for that too, right?
[10:32.710 --> 10:35.030]  You know, we'd love to go back and forth and, and argue.
[10:35.290 --> 10:41.670]  And the fact that we really don't know very much about what the agenda is going to be very much keeps me on my toes.
[10:41.790 --> 10:43.650]  It makes sure that, that I read the news.
[10:43.770 --> 10:49.750]  I, I very often read the, you know, top stories in the financial times to try to figure out what we're going to be talking about.
[10:49.890 --> 11:00.970]  But then inevitably, Emmanuel always unearths some kind of bizarre story about a teenage hacker getting in trouble in a library in Bulgaria or something that, you know, nobody has talked about.
[11:01.150 --> 11:10.750]  But for me, I, I love it because it, it feeds into, I think, my professional type of, uh, capacity here and, and keeps me, keeps me active, keeps me live.
[11:12.830 --> 11:13.150]  Yeah.
[11:13.370 --> 11:22.190]  And that's, that's, uh, that touches on something else, which is that those of us who work on the show, and there are those, there are those of us who hear on the air, but there are also a couple of others behind the scenes working on things with us.
[11:22.370 --> 11:23.370]  Uh, we got to shout out our,
[11:35.310 --> 11:43.430]  Voltaire, who was on the show for a while, um, but, uh, nowadays is mostly behind the scenes helping with the, the research, the articles, the social media, other stuff.
[11:43.890 --> 11:49.690]  And all of us are just throwing stuff back and forth over the course of the week, um, over our email list.
[11:49.910 --> 11:55.550]  And yeah, that's, that's how we kind of settle on things to, to talk about, uh, when, when the mics go on.
[11:57.390 --> 11:57.710]  Yeah.
[11:57.710 --> 12:00.510]  And if, if anybody has questions, we want to keep this totally open.
[12:00.530 --> 12:07.530]  If you have any questions about this, about any topics that we've covered, about how the show works, about, you know, what we do, what we do in our spare time, et cetera.
[12:08.230 --> 12:09.830]  Uh, you know, I would just raise your hand.
[12:09.990 --> 12:11.590]  Somebody will come over there with a microphone.
[12:11.670 --> 12:12.690]  Is that how we're going to do it, Moon?
[12:13.270 --> 12:13.550]  All right.
[12:13.770 --> 12:13.870]  Yeah.
[12:14.690 --> 12:15.830]  I don't think, sorry.
[12:16.570 --> 12:16.890]  Sorry.
[12:17.270 --> 12:17.810]  Um, yeah.
[12:17.950 --> 12:20.170]  If you have a question, just walk up over there.
[12:20.190 --> 12:24.790]  And actually we have an, we have one question, um, in the matrix chat room.
[12:24.970 --> 12:25.830]  So I'll read them out.
[12:26.050 --> 12:30.110]  And, um, this question is question.
[12:30.350 --> 12:31.150]  Oh, sorry.
[12:31.430 --> 12:37.570]  Who is the funniest guest you have had on Off The Hook or is that too hard?
[12:38.130 --> 12:41.190]  What is the funniest story from the show?
[12:42.630 --> 12:43.870]  That's a good question.
[12:44.030 --> 12:47.930]  I guess the funniest guest, I mean, are we talking about personality or looks?
[12:49.230 --> 12:50.730]  We all have great faces for radio.
[12:50.930 --> 12:51.610]  I guess personality.
[12:51.810 --> 12:54.470]  Cause we've had a lot of funny looking people on, on the show.
[12:54.730 --> 12:56.450]  Um, I would say, you know what?
[12:56.590 --> 13:08.250]  I have this really distinct memory of, um, uh, and I guess maybe, maybe a lot of people wouldn't consider him to be really funny, but I love when Cory Doctorow comes on because he's always laughing in one way or another.
[13:08.430 --> 13:22.630]  And I remember, um, having made him laugh really significantly and heartily during one of the episodes a couple of years ago when there was, it was right when ChatGPT and all these LLMs were becoming really popular.
[13:22.630 --> 13:30.270]  And there was some kind of consortium that was put together of technologists that, uh, had all drafted a letter.
[13:30.450 --> 13:32.490]  Sorry, Cleo's not cooperating with me here.
[13:32.830 --> 13:39.390]  Um, and they drafted a letter about the need to slow down the evolution of these large language models and the danger to humanity.
[13:39.870 --> 13:42.030]  And it was a, it was a somewhat compelling letter.
[13:42.150 --> 13:50.150]  And I made the comment that, you know, I, I, I found it quite sad to read this letter because it would have been so much more compelling if Andrew Yang hadn't signed it.
[13:50.670 --> 13:52.550]  And he cracked up about this.
[13:52.650 --> 13:59.310]  And I remember, so I, I, uh, I think Cory Doctorow is probably one of my favorite guests and, uh, and I always enjoy his laugh.
[14:00.210 --> 14:00.290]  Yeah.
[14:00.750 --> 14:06.570]  Um, one thing that comes to mind for me, and this wasn't necessarily when he was on the air with us, but this was a guest we had.
[14:06.870 --> 14:09.190]  And afterward, we, we all went out to dinner together.
[14:09.190 --> 14:12.810]  And he's very sadly no longer with us, a hacker by the name of Dan Kaminsky.
[14:13.110 --> 14:13.870]  Anyone remember him?
[14:14.070 --> 14:14.570]  Of course.
[14:14.890 --> 14:15.010]  Yeah.
[14:15.270 --> 14:18.910]  And he was such a lighthearted, positive, funny dude.
[14:18.930 --> 14:29.470]  And I don't even remember what the joke was or what we were laughing at, but I just remember that a moment at dinner that is the moment of him that I hold closest, where we were just like laughing to the point of tears over something.
[14:29.830 --> 14:32.730]  Um, and it was, it was just this, uh, this wonderful moment.
[14:32.910 --> 14:35.070]  And yeah, that was, that was pretty hilarious.
[14:35.590 --> 14:36.390]  So yeah.
[14:37.770 --> 14:47.290]  So we haven't had as many guests in my tenure on the show for obvious reasons, but I'm going to go with a conference favorite, Jason Scott.
[14:48.330 --> 15:00.190]  Not, I mean, Jason is always just so much fun to listen to, but also when he's calling in from his office, just to watch what he's doing, what he has in the background, you never know what's going to happen next.
[15:00.730 --> 15:02.770]  And I just really appreciate those moments.
[15:03.230 --> 15:03.550]  Yeah.
[15:03.630 --> 15:11.870]  If you've ever watched Jason Scott's Twitch, where he's just digitizing things and like, you know, slinging discs over and over and, uh, he's, he's doing that when he's on with us too.
[15:12.050 --> 15:18.210]  And, you know, I'm, I'm sure some things were digitized, uh, this past Wednesday when we had him on, it was, uh, it was good times.
[15:18.330 --> 15:18.690]  Good times.
[15:18.850 --> 15:22.450]  I would also like to mention, um, our most recent in studio guest.
[15:22.610 --> 15:23.030]  Oh yes.
[15:23.310 --> 15:23.570]  Thunder.
[15:23.970 --> 15:24.170]  Thunder.
[15:24.610 --> 15:31.290]  Um, if any of you were listening to the show on Wednesday, there was a severe thunderstorm happening while we were on air.
[15:32.570 --> 15:38.870]  And, uh, it was pretty intense while we were broadcasting and it was, it was kind of scary for a minute.
[15:38.930 --> 15:45.030]  So yes, we had Jason Scott with us, Kusanagi was with us and our very special guest was thunder.
[15:45.290 --> 15:45.470]  Yes.
[15:45.570 --> 15:57.410]  And it was, it was very nicely punctuating the, the ominous conversation we were having about, uh, misuse of generative AI and, uh, you know, on, on right on cue, you'd hear a big rumble of thunder, like it, like it was a, like it was an old school Hollywood movie.
[15:57.890 --> 15:58.930]  So yeah, that was pretty great.
[15:59.170 --> 16:00.910]  I think we have a question, uh, up here.
[16:01.270 --> 16:01.630]  Yeah.
[16:07.930 --> 16:12.930]  So can you speak to, uh, maybe some high drama experiences you may have had?
[16:12.970 --> 16:19.330]  Doesn't need to be interpersonal, but maybe something that got broadcast and caused drama, but maybe interpersonal.
[16:19.690 --> 16:21.050]  What, what is an interesting story?
[16:21.310 --> 16:35.690]  I can tell you, I think one of the most dramatic episodes of Off The Hook ever, and, and I often bring this up on the show when, um, when we do our WBAI fundraisers, which we should probably plug WBAI, please support WBAI to keep us on the air, keep Off The Hook going for another,
[16:35.930 --> 16:36.390]  what is it?
[16:36.470 --> 16:37.310]  37 years?
[16:37.670 --> 16:38.030]  1960.
[16:38.410 --> 16:38.550]  Yeah.
[16:39.010 --> 16:42.890]  Well, I mean, the show is, well, the show, yeah, WBAI started 1960.
[16:42.890 --> 16:44.370]  The show started in 1988.
[16:44.770 --> 16:45.550]  That's kind of amazing.
[16:45.570 --> 16:54.870]  But I remember back in, um, back in 2000 when WBAI and the Pacifica National Board was taken over.
[16:55.070 --> 16:55.570]  Oh, look at this.
[16:55.690 --> 16:58.050]  Look, we have another panelist over here.
[16:58.250 --> 16:59.030]  Hey, look who it is.
[16:59.270 --> 17:00.690]  Kyle is here, everybody.
[17:01.070 --> 17:03.250]  I don't remember the dog being a part of the show.
[17:03.370 --> 17:05.850]  Uh, well, then you haven't been listening closely enough.
[17:05.970 --> 17:06.790]  Come on up, Kyle.
[17:07.050 --> 17:07.290]  He's coming up.
[17:07.370 --> 17:07.510]  Yeah.
[17:08.030 --> 17:08.030]  Yep.
[17:08.070 --> 17:08.930]  He's coming up here.
[17:09.590 --> 17:09.950]  It's ours.
[17:10.510 --> 17:11.610]  Just climb up, man.
[17:11.730 --> 17:12.470]  You know how to do it.
[17:13.070 --> 17:13.830]  No, don't, no.
[17:13.990 --> 17:14.490]  No, no.
[17:14.910 --> 17:15.610]  No, you have to, no.
[17:15.850 --> 17:16.330]  Turn around.
[17:16.910 --> 17:17.050]  No.
[17:17.130 --> 17:17.810]  Do not anger Moon.
[17:18.050 --> 17:18.050]  No.
[17:18.190 --> 17:19.030]  You're doing it wrong.
[17:19.030 --> 17:20.190]  Stop it.
[17:20.430 --> 17:20.490]  No.
[17:20.650 --> 17:21.090]  Come here.
[17:21.270 --> 17:22.370]  You have to come this way.
[17:22.490 --> 17:22.870]  That's it.
[17:23.550 --> 17:23.970]  Yeah.
[17:23.970 --> 17:26.810]  Somebody lead this guy, uh, to the staircase, please.
[17:28.790 --> 17:34.790]  While Kyle's trying to figure out the, the entranceway here, um, and by the way, here, Kyle, everybody.
[17:35.510 --> 17:35.850]  Hi there.
[17:36.090 --> 17:36.410]  Come on.
[17:37.150 --> 17:37.630]  There we go.
[17:38.230 --> 17:40.290]  Who's, uh, graced us with his presence here.
[17:40.710 --> 17:41.030]  Wonderful.
[17:41.830 --> 17:48.370]  So, the bit of high drama that I wanted to reference came back in 2000 when the Pacifica National Board was taken over by corporate interests.
[17:48.370 --> 17:58.650]  And there was this intention to sell the WBAI station, which obviously is right in the middle of the dial in New York, which is 99.5 FM.
[17:58.810 --> 18:02.230]  So, at that point, people were very much still listening to the radio all the time.
[18:02.230 --> 18:07.370]  It was an incredibly valuable frequency to have in the middle of Manhattan over there.
[18:07.370 --> 18:11.770]  So, I think at the time it was valued at around something like 300 million dollars.
[18:12.010 --> 18:12.930]  I mean, it was, it was massive.
[18:13.370 --> 18:15.690]  But there were a lot of protests about this.
[18:15.850 --> 18:20.630]  There was this, you know, the, the local advisory board performed some kind of sit-in.
[18:20.870 --> 18:24.390]  And I think it was on the 20th floor of, was it 120 Wall Street?
[18:24.570 --> 18:26.230]  Of course, I always get it mixed up 120 or 110.
[18:26.390 --> 18:28.250]  120 Wall Street at the time.
[18:28.250 --> 18:31.490]  And we were on the air when the sit-in was happening.
[18:31.610 --> 18:34.430]  And the NYPD was called into the station.
[18:34.690 --> 18:38.430]  And the NYPD was ordering people to leave the station.
[18:38.450 --> 18:41.370]  And, and everybody there just refused to leave the station.
[18:42.010 --> 18:46.810]  And at that point, not everybody around had a cell phone.
[18:46.810 --> 18:48.370]  But Emmanuel did.
[18:48.650 --> 18:49.750]  And we were in the studio.
[18:49.750 --> 18:52.870]  So he called into his cell phone, put it on the air.
[18:52.970 --> 18:54.110]  And I ran into the hallway.
[18:54.430 --> 19:01.690]  And I put the cell phone up to a cop's mouth when he was announcing that everybody there was going to be arrested if they didn't move.
[19:01.950 --> 19:08.650]  And this was broadcast out to the air around New York, New Jersey, Connecticut, bits of Pennsylvania, of course.
[19:09.450 --> 19:17.250]  And it was amazing the show of support that happened when all these WBAI listeners showed up at the station, were rallying outside.
[19:17.250 --> 19:21.090]  When we came out that night, we were pretty much greeted as heroes.
[19:21.290 --> 19:22.590]  There were people banging drums.
[19:22.830 --> 19:27.190]  There was, there was, there was a real show of force against the NYPD.
[19:27.570 --> 19:34.610]  And they walked out, had to be 10 to 12, maybe more people that got arrested as a sit-in, as an act of civil disobedience.
[19:34.730 --> 19:41.530]  So for me, I think in terms of Off The Hook, that was probably one of the high, highest drama instances that I can remember.
[19:43.010 --> 19:44.550]  Yeah, that's definitely up there.
[19:44.650 --> 19:50.110]  There was an incident, and I've got the show's Wikipedia article open in front of me because, you know, I do my research.
[19:50.390 --> 20:03.810]  And the, on November 30th, 1999, and I remember listening to this live, journalist Amy Goodman was reporting live from the World Trade Organization protests while being repeatedly approached by police and tear gassed.
[20:04.390 --> 20:17.010]  And this moment, actually, there is a huge Best of 2600 book that came out some time ago, and they included a CD with audio from, you know, notable points in Off The Hook's history.
[20:17.270 --> 20:26.630]  And this was the chunk that I recommended get, get included in that because it was just extremely, extremely interesting to listen to what was going on.
[20:26.710 --> 20:28.210]  And of course, Amy Goodman is amazing.
[20:28.210 --> 20:28.610]  Amazing.
[20:31.010 --> 20:47.530]  In terms of, in terms of drama while I was involved with the show, I do love the next thing Wikipedia mentions, which is in 2009, on April Fool's Day, listeners to WBAI would have heard the intro to country 99.5.
[20:47.910 --> 20:48.630]  Anyone remember this?
[20:49.770 --> 21:09.750]  It was, it was basically a, a long string of audio that Emmanuel had prepared with the help of people he knows in the radio world and stuff to do these tags and excerpts and things that make that made it sound like WBAI was now bought out and had become a country station and was going to begin a
[21:09.750 --> 21:13.370]  10,000 song country, you know, block with no interruptions.
[21:13.550 --> 21:16.310]  And there are all these little tags from like different country singers and stuff.
[21:16.530 --> 21:21.330]  And it was fun to be there sitting in the studio, saying nothing while, while this was playing.
[21:21.830 --> 21:27.790]  And, you know, we, we later heard that, you know, the phones were of course lighting up at the station.
[21:28.190 --> 21:33.750]  I think someone was, was got out of bed as a result, asked what the hell was going on.
[21:34.210 --> 21:35.250]  That was a lot of fun.
[21:35.350 --> 21:38.850]  And eventually that ended in WBAI did not become a country station.
[21:45.710 --> 21:46.450]  I'm new.
[21:47.470 --> 21:56.630]  Um, but I think it's not so much interpersonal drama as just what we've gone through to keep the show on the air since 2020.
[21:56.810 --> 22:12.030]  And during, especially the early days of the pandemic, when we were all isolated in our homes, and this is one of the only times in the week we actually got to like see other people and everything it took to make sure that we had everybody's audio was working and we were connected to this station.
[22:12.670 --> 22:22.750]  And so I'm glad you're here, Kyle, because this is a really wonderful moment of appreciation to say thank you for everything you've done to keep all of that working and moving.
[22:22.930 --> 22:25.850]  And we, you make it happen.
[22:26.390 --> 22:26.990]  You're welcome.
[22:28.150 --> 22:29.250]  You're absolutely welcome.
[22:30.010 --> 22:36.490]  I could talk nonstop about all kinds of aspects of, uh, behind the scenes stuff.
[22:36.670 --> 22:39.790]  I think the question was, uh, what kind of drama and what was the funniest guest?
[22:39.910 --> 22:42.690]  I would say our recent episode with Jason Scott was hilarious.
[22:42.910 --> 22:49.550]  His takes on things just occurring, what's happening, his perspective on this community and the wider world.
[22:49.790 --> 22:51.290]  It was just so much fun.
[22:51.290 --> 22:53.330]  And we talked for several hours.
[22:53.510 --> 23:03.730]  I think the most drama, it's, you kind of have to clarify, um, because I would ask then, it's a terrible response to ask in response to a question.
[23:03.830 --> 23:09.650]  But do you mean on air drama or, or would that be, uh, like behind the scenes stuff?
[23:09.810 --> 23:31.670]  Because the examples of, um, you know, keeping community radio going, that in and of itself is an entire world and is an enormous lesson in, uh, wrangling with, without, uh, just real alchemy as far as media goes, uh, just making the best work you can with high production values,
[23:31.670 --> 23:33.850]  with very little resources.
[23:34.090 --> 23:46.210]  And even, um, in particular with WBAI being sort of, um, an outspoken quasi-target in some cases, depending on what the political or other situations are regarding speech.
[23:46.410 --> 23:58.170]  So to be a part of that, and yeah, I, I think that there's, that's more the, the thing I think of when I think of any kind of drama per se.
[23:58.870 --> 24:05.730]  Um, and, and of course, a lot of the people that we talk to, there are kind of a wide range of personalities.
[24:06.130 --> 24:12.350]  So definitely, like, adjusting and adapting to people's expectations and coordinating stuff.
[24:12.370 --> 24:14.450]  Obviously, we have technical issues all the time.
[24:14.650 --> 24:24.690]  Um, and as you pointed out, just the, the, um, the level we had to step to after 2020, totally, totally, um, new stuff.
[24:24.890 --> 24:29.150]  And, but it was sort of this progression because the station had moved.
[24:29.290 --> 24:43.450]  Uh, we were very, um, early on when I started getting involved as a guest, we were at 120 Wall Street, which is a very professional studio on the 10th floor of a building in, you know, downtown in, uh, literally Wall Street.
[24:43.670 --> 24:53.050]  Uh, so that place was built out, was a very, um, it was a long term, uh, lease, a place they had been for a very long time.
[24:53.190 --> 24:57.750]  And it, it, it, you could tell it was an old school proper radio station.
[24:58.130 --> 25:05.470]  Um, so as we moved, we were at, um, WHCR, Harlem Community Radio for a little while.
[25:05.590 --> 25:08.190]  And that was, uh, similar to St. John's.
[25:08.290 --> 25:09.610]  They have a, a station on campus.
[25:09.610 --> 25:13.050]  So we would go up to Harlem and, and broadcast from there.
[25:13.050 --> 25:21.630]  And just bringing the necessities from that old station to WHCR to make our stuff work was a precursor.
[25:21.690 --> 25:30.770]  I, I definitely say foreshadowing to the build it yourself DIY stuff that we ended up doing when remote broadcasting came into vogue.
[25:30.870 --> 25:35.050]  And I think a lot of credit is due to the spirit of this community.
[25:35.230 --> 25:43.510]  I, as Rob said, have an interest in production, uh, specifically photography, non-linear editing, all of that kind of stuff.
[25:43.670 --> 25:45.890]  I, I do a lot more like design stuff now.
[25:46.210 --> 25:58.850]  Um, but that curiosity, I'm not like, I'm not an expert with pro audio or anything for like, um, doing this kind of stuff or, or a concert or something like that.
[25:59.130 --> 26:09.510]  Amateur at best for like, let's say, uh, remote production or as, as we say, field production, like out there in the world, uh, news reporting.
[26:09.550 --> 26:10.850]  That's kind of my training.
[26:11.230 --> 26:20.010]  And with, um, 2600 and the radio, I get to kind of pretend I'm professional, whether I'm, I'm doing that kind of stuff.
[26:20.230 --> 26:29.170]  And then this moment when we couldn't really be in, then the third station in Brooklyn, it, it was really hard.
[26:29.170 --> 26:35.930]  I remember, uh, just basically driving by one day when we had to kind of turn away from that station.
[26:36.050 --> 26:38.730]  And that was it for a couple of years.
[26:38.970 --> 26:45.650]  And I remember, I think Voltaire, some other people were showing up then and we like called them from, from outside on the street.
[26:45.890 --> 26:45.890]  Jim as well.
[26:45.910 --> 26:46.730]  Got to shout Jim out.
[26:46.930 --> 26:47.230]  Yeah.
[26:47.470 --> 26:48.330]  And Jim was there.
[26:48.330 --> 26:48.930]  Absolutely.
[26:49.470 --> 26:50.290]  Oh, miss him.
[26:50.550 --> 26:53.510]  Uh, but it, it was surreal.
[26:53.730 --> 27:06.450]  And then what I'm getting to is, uh, all of the kind of scrappiness and, um, let's say, uh, the hope spirit of, of making things happen.
[27:06.450 --> 27:11.830]  And I certainly am a bit of a wild crafter or, or someone who makes stuff happen.
[27:12.210 --> 27:14.930]  And, uh, it was basically like we needed a studio.
[27:15.670 --> 27:20.790]  Um, so as amateur as I felt I was, uh, I'm really proud of what we built.
[27:21.190 --> 27:33.650]  Um, and to put it simply, uh, I really, I bought two machines and two PreSonus, which are, um, pro level audio interfaces for computers.
[27:33.790 --> 27:35.550]  And they basically talk to one another.
[27:35.790 --> 27:38.030]  And one of them talks to the station.
[27:38.250 --> 27:55.690]  So we bring in the guests on one computer and that talks to the other one through the board and then, um, our mics, uh, where we broadcast from, combine that and then send it to the station over a pro audio system.
[27:55.930 --> 28:00.070]  And I will say, like, this was not just us doing this.
[28:00.290 --> 28:05.630]  You will look, you can look across commercial and, uh, community radio right now.
[28:06.170 --> 28:07.470]  Everyone has done this.
[28:07.950 --> 28:10.750]  Like, many stations are, are quite simply unmanned.
[28:10.830 --> 28:13.890]  And this was actually a critique or, uh, unpersoned.
[28:14.050 --> 28:17.610]  Let's say you, you would want people there.
[28:17.750 --> 28:21.750]  We used to say, like, a, a DJ farm is not a real radio station in some way.
[28:21.810 --> 28:26.850]  You know, I know, uh, E feels this way, uh, feels very strongly about people being present.
[28:27.150 --> 28:30.730]  Um, but it just necessitated that under the circumstances.
[28:31.070 --> 28:35.730]  And now it's kind of a cool thing because we could be in studio.
[28:35.970 --> 28:39.570]  We could do, as Alex said, what we had done traditionally.
[28:39.870 --> 28:42.650]  Um, but we've built something permanent.
[28:42.650 --> 28:43.910]  So it's always an option.
[28:44.030 --> 28:45.210]  It's always there for us.
[28:45.370 --> 28:48.510]  And in addition, um... Here's treble.
[28:49.190 --> 28:50.050]  Oh, I know him.
[28:50.150 --> 28:50.930]  Speak of the devil.
[28:51.230 --> 28:54.670]  In addition, uh, we like to do that from the road as well.
[28:54.810 --> 29:02.210]  Like, we can, um, adapt the same stuff to being out in the field if we were at, say, a protest or something.
[29:02.350 --> 29:08.310]  So we've definitely, um, stepped it up with, along with a lot of other people in radio.
[29:08.530 --> 29:09.570]  Anyway, end of diatribe.
[29:09.650 --> 29:10.030]  Cut me off.
[29:10.130 --> 29:10.670]  Somebody, please.
[29:10.870 --> 29:12.350]  Everybody say hi to Emmanuel Goldstein.
[29:15.490 --> 29:18.630]  Yeah, I, I haven't seen these people in a while in person.
[29:18.930 --> 29:20.890]  So it's... How long has it been?
[29:21.090 --> 29:21.350]  Ages.
[29:21.730 --> 29:22.650]  I remember you taller.
[29:23.190 --> 29:25.150]  Yeah, no, that's, that, that happened.
[29:25.370 --> 29:32.570]  Um, yeah, because of COVID, we started doing everything remotely and we decided we like it better because you don't have to leave your house.
[29:32.810 --> 29:35.110]  You know, we would always drive two hours into the city.
[29:35.250 --> 29:37.670]  It was fun, but man, it was a pain in the ass.
[29:37.890 --> 29:42.610]  Uh, and now, uh, Kyle built the studio that really works well.
[29:43.050 --> 29:47.590]  Uh, I don't want to say better than WBAI, but, you know, less hassle sometimes.
[29:48.170 --> 29:52.290]  And, um, yeah, we can even take phone calls and have delay and all that kind of stuff.
[29:52.530 --> 29:53.870]  So, yeah, it's neat.
[29:54.050 --> 29:55.310]  It's, uh, we've advanced quite a bit.
[29:55.530 --> 30:01.510]  And, um, I gotta say though, you know, radio is such, um, an amazing, unique, priceless thing.
[30:02.050 --> 30:05.770]  And I think a lot of people in the hacker community really appreciate radio.
[30:06.230 --> 30:11.990]  Uh, and there's a lot of people doing radio, you know, on the Internet, but also on the air.
[30:12.690 --> 30:24.590]  And it's something that we have really grown to treasure as a scarce commodity that's being taken over by all kinds of corporate interests and, uh, people who just don't get it.
[30:24.790 --> 30:32.250]  Uh, you know, technically we're a podcast, but we're really a radio show, uh, because we broadcast on the radio.
[30:32.510 --> 30:36.910]  Um, and I, you know, I, I trace that back to my days at, at WUSB.
[30:37.010 --> 30:40.470]  Actually, I still do a show on WUSB with Kyle called Off The Wall.
[30:40.730 --> 30:48.470]  Uh, and, um, that place, um, taught me how amazing radio can be back in my college days.
[30:48.670 --> 30:52.990]  And that kind of, um, made 2600 possible as well.
[30:53.430 --> 30:55.610]  So all of that, it's all linked.
[30:55.690 --> 30:58.070]  It's all, it's all part of the same thing.
[30:58.190 --> 31:00.170]  And I'm just glad so many people appreciate it.
[31:00.250 --> 31:02.770]  And so many people are doing it themselves.
[31:03.470 --> 31:19.070]  So, um, you know, if you have the opportunity, join a local radio station and put your own magic into it, listen to all kinds of different music, talk about all kinds of different subject matter, uh, cover news that isn't covered anywhere else.
[31:19.230 --> 31:23.690]  And you'll find you have an amazing audience that's just waiting for something different out there.
[31:24.090 --> 31:30.570]  I'd just like to, I know I've seen some hands up, uh, if you have a question, come on up to the mic here, the standing mic, and, uh, we'll be happy to hear from you.
[31:30.710 --> 31:32.470]  Also, if anyone online has some questions.
[31:32.670 --> 31:33.290]  Yes, we have a comment.
[31:34.070 --> 31:36.690]  Um, am I allowed to interrupt y'all?
[31:36.910 --> 31:40.350]  Because sometimes I'm like, maybe I should, but you're saying some interesting things.
[31:40.690 --> 31:40.690]  Please, yeah.
[31:40.710 --> 31:42.790]  We can't get interrupted on the air, so this is good for us.
[31:42.790 --> 31:42.890]  Okay, let's go.
[31:43.090 --> 31:43.550]  All right, listen.
[31:43.870 --> 31:45.890]  Um, so we have comment for the panel.
[31:46.110 --> 31:54.830]  In 2004, an IT manager I worked for, let me have a stack of 2600 magazines, which kick-started a career in security for me.
[31:55.170 --> 32:04.090]  Once I discovered Off The Hook, it felt like I had a connection to the hacking community, which largely didn't exist in my area.
[32:04.370 --> 32:16.430]  I used to burn your backlog shows a year at a time to CD, compact disc, to listen to in my car as I drive to boring IT client visits.
[32:17.110 --> 32:19.490]  A big thank you for all that you do.
[32:19.830 --> 32:24.590]  It's been formative, not only for me professionally, but also as a security.
[32:25.390 --> 32:25.930]  Privacy.
[32:26.710 --> 32:29.630]  Humanity-minded human-shaped object.
[32:30.150 --> 32:30.990]  Heart emoji.
[32:31.890 --> 32:32.430]  Awesome.
[32:32.630 --> 32:33.510]  That was, that was lovely.
[32:33.830 --> 32:34.270]  Who is it?
[32:34.330 --> 32:34.770]  Who is that from?
[32:35.830 --> 32:36.730]  Great question.
[32:37.010 --> 32:38.490]  It's from Hev.
[32:38.950 --> 32:39.950]  Thank you, Hev.
[32:40.190 --> 32:42.890]  Much better than people complaining about us talking about politics.
[32:42.890 --> 32:43.390]  Thank you.
[32:43.750 --> 32:44.130]  I love that.
[32:44.350 --> 32:44.810]  Another question.
[32:44.930 --> 32:45.270]  Oh, sorry.
[32:46.410 --> 32:47.390]  Should I just... Oh, okay.
[32:47.550 --> 32:48.330]  It's another question.
[32:48.770 --> 32:48.970]  It was repeated.
[32:48.970 --> 32:50.290]  One more question, then I want to get the...
[32:50.290 --> 32:52.110]  And then, yeah, we'll go to you next, okay?
[32:52.390 --> 32:53.190]  I see you.
[32:54.130 --> 32:55.410]  What is the phone...
[32:57.050 --> 33:03.070]  From Aesthetics, what is the phone number for the WBAI fundraiser?
[33:03.150 --> 33:03.950]  I forgot.
[33:07.690 --> 33:11.870]  And then there's a parenthetical, it's like, that should make them laugh, which it did.
[33:12.150 --> 33:12.150]  Yeah.
[33:13.590 --> 33:14.330]  That's funny.
[33:14.770 --> 33:14.890]  Mm-hmm.
[33:16.250 --> 33:21.330]  The WBAI pledge phone number is 1-833-WBAI-NYC.
[33:21.330 --> 33:25.490]  That's 1-833-922-4692 for the numerical string fans.
[33:25.490 --> 33:30.270]  Or you could go to buddy.wbai.org and do your business online.
[33:30.270 --> 33:32.950]  You know, the pledge drive never ends at WBAI.
[33:33.110 --> 33:39.970]  In fact, we take weird pride in this as being the first station in the country to ask for money from listeners.
[33:40.590 --> 33:46.110]  In fact, WBAI is set to stand for we beg at intervals, except now it's no longer intervals.
[33:46.110 --> 33:46.930]  It's all the time.
[33:47.050 --> 33:48.210]  But there's a reason for that.
[33:48.210 --> 33:58.930]  It's because funding has dried up and it's really, really difficult to run a radio station, especially a radio station in New York City in the middle of the commercial band.
[33:58.970 --> 34:01.530]  In other words, above 92.
[34:01.710 --> 34:03.550]  Below 92 are all the non-commercial stations.
[34:03.630 --> 34:06.210]  Above 92 generally are commercial stations.
[34:06.490 --> 34:11.070]  But we have a frequency that's right smack in the middle, 99.5.
[34:11.550 --> 34:28.230]  And the only reason we have that frequency is because somebody who used to own a commercial radio station back in 1960 decided to donate the station to the Pacifica Foundation and literally called up the Pacifica Foundation, having heard their broadcasting and saying,
[34:28.290 --> 34:31.990]  I want to donate a station to this this group of people.
[34:32.410 --> 34:38.430]  They hung up on them several times because, you know, someone saying, I want to donate a 50,000 watt radio station in the middle of New York City.
[34:38.670 --> 34:39.310]  Yeah, right.
[34:39.510 --> 34:44.750]  You know, but it turned out, as is something we're all familiar with, the impossible turned out to be true.
[34:45.330 --> 34:47.890]  And that's how WBAI was born.
[34:48.210 --> 34:53.690]  And the weird thing is, you know, for all the turmoil and insecurity that we constantly face.
[34:54.650 --> 35:00.350]  WBAI has kept its format longer than any other radio station in New York City.
[35:00.390 --> 35:03.870]  If you look at every frequency, you'll see they've changed in some way.
[35:03.990 --> 35:04.750]  They've gone country.
[35:04.970 --> 35:05.990]  They've gone all talk.
[35:06.110 --> 35:07.290]  They can't figure out what to do.
[35:07.650 --> 35:12.710]  But WBAI has always been about alternative thoughts, alternative speech.
[35:13.090 --> 35:16.630]  And the only reason it still exists, it's because of listeners.
[35:16.950 --> 35:19.190]  You know, we had CPB funding.
[35:19.630 --> 35:20.910]  That's no longer a thing.
[35:21.250 --> 35:22.590]  So obviously, we need listeners.
[35:22.730 --> 35:25.330]  We don't do very much underwriting.
[35:25.550 --> 35:27.090]  And we certainly don't do commercials.
[35:28.030 --> 35:32.270]  So the station is impossible, but yet it exists.
[35:32.290 --> 35:33.690]  And we're happy to be a part of it.
[35:33.870 --> 35:35.910]  And I think we should take a question from the audience.
[35:36.170 --> 35:36.670]  Go ahead.
[35:38.210 --> 35:38.850]  Hey, guys.
[35:43.500 --> 35:44.260]  Hey, Alex.
[35:44.260 --> 35:47.180]  This is Oliver from Vermont or Auk.
[35:47.380 --> 35:48.860]  Oh, my God.
[35:49.300 --> 35:50.440]  I don't believe it.
[35:51.100 --> 35:51.360]  Yeah.
[35:51.520 --> 35:51.860]  Unbelievable.
[35:52.080 --> 35:53.120]  So good to see you, Oliver.
[35:53.380 --> 35:54.600]  So great to see you guys.
[35:54.720 --> 35:55.220]  Amazing.
[35:55.600 --> 35:55.900]  Fantastic.
[35:56.220 --> 36:02.380]  I just want to say, first off, thank you so much for keeping the radio station going.
[36:02.620 --> 36:15.040]  I feel like, you know, in a lot of ways, you guys are keeping the old school New York City hacker spirit alive and keeping people interested in radio in general.
[36:15.560 --> 36:20.980]  So it's been just a huge inspiration to always listen to you guys.
[36:21.280 --> 36:22.320]  Everybody loves you.
[36:22.460 --> 36:25.160]  It's awesome to hear you guys still on the air.
[36:26.740 --> 36:34.740]  I got to say, I think Rebel cracks me up the most when he calls to the funny question.
[36:35.240 --> 36:38.820]  But anyway, I just want to say thank you.
[36:39.020 --> 36:39.460]  He's here.
[36:39.840 --> 36:41.300]  So you can meet him in person.
[36:41.880 --> 36:42.120]  All right.
[36:42.240 --> 36:42.920]  He might be in this room.
[36:43.680 --> 36:44.420]  Rebel, are you here?
[36:45.220 --> 36:45.320]  No?
[36:45.560 --> 36:45.660]  Okay.
[36:45.740 --> 36:46.380]  He's not in this room.
[36:46.620 --> 36:47.160]  I can't believe you've been here.
[36:47.160 --> 36:48.720]  This was hastily scheduled.
[36:48.960 --> 36:50.060]  So, but you'll, you'll meet him.
[36:50.500 --> 37:00.720]  I do want to say that, you know, you can thank us for what we do, but you can't thank us for keeping the station going because that credit is in the hands of all the listeners and all the supporters of WBAI over the years.
[37:00.940 --> 37:10.120]  So, any of you in here in the house now, members, WBAI supporters, thank you very much for doing what you do so we can keep doing what we do.
[37:12.200 --> 37:15.480]  We have a couple of comments from the Internet.
[37:20.180 --> 37:24.840]  From Stjaru, I shouldn't try to read handles, like for reals.
[37:25.720 --> 37:36.100]  I'd also like to tell the panel, I have listened for years and shared the good times, the difficult times, and feel connected to the community because of their excellent work.
[37:36.300 --> 37:43.620]  The energy, passion, and generosity is a glue that keeps the community alive slash together.
[37:44.000 --> 37:54.120]  My love of hacking slash tech, our culture, and the people is due in no small part to all your contributions.
[37:54.880 --> 37:56.240]  Shout out from Kansas.
[37:56.640 --> 37:57.200]  Oh my God.
[37:57.840 --> 38:01.940]  Stay excellent, because your work matters and inspires.
[38:03.140 --> 38:04.020]  Thank you.
[38:04.600 --> 38:04.960]  Heartwarming.
[38:05.440 --> 38:07.100]  Should I read the second comment?
[38:07.440 --> 38:08.600]  Okay, I'll read it faster.
[38:08.740 --> 38:09.620]  I'm sorry, I'm being silly.
[38:10.180 --> 38:11.260]  Comment for the panel.
[38:11.520 --> 38:15.200]  Just want, and this is from Prestel Pirate.
[38:15.300 --> 38:15.920]  Whatever.
[38:16.520 --> 38:21.660]  Just wanted to say thanks to the panel for keeping Off The Hook going for all these years.
[38:21.860 --> 38:24.200]  It's been a must-listen for me in Europe.
[38:24.200 --> 38:24.880]  What?
[38:25.380 --> 38:27.460]  Since it first got going.
[38:27.640 --> 38:28.240]  Thank you.
[38:28.720 --> 38:36.980]  Donating a, donating to a NY radio station from Europe has been challenging at times.
[38:38.040 --> 38:39.780]  Colon, capital D.
[38:41.800 --> 38:42.780]  That is delightful.
[38:43.260 --> 38:44.580]  That is, that is awesome.
[38:44.900 --> 38:48.280]  One thing we don't get a lot of when we're doing the radio show is a lot of direct immediate feedback.
[38:48.520 --> 38:50.120]  So this is actually really wonderful.
[38:50.320 --> 38:51.440]  We have another question here.
[38:52.060 --> 38:52.560]  Yes, thanks.
[38:53.800 --> 38:56.940]  So my name is Ken and I'm a long time listener.
[38:58.460 --> 39:02.640]  So I loved hearing all these stories and, you know, thank you again.
[39:02.880 --> 39:09.120]  But my question is, one of my favorite series of episodes was when Emmanuel went to Cuba.
[39:10.240 --> 39:16.140]  And I was wondering if you had any other ideas for interesting remote locations for future episodes?
[39:17.600 --> 39:18.060]  Well, let's see.
[39:18.220 --> 39:22.260]  I've been to Cuba, Albania, North Korea.
[39:23.320 --> 39:27.160]  I'd like to go to the moon, but it doesn't seem likely.
[39:27.460 --> 39:29.340]  I don't know, you know, name a place.
[39:29.560 --> 39:35.460]  And between me and Alex, we seem to be traveling throughout the planet.
[39:36.260 --> 39:38.180]  So there are very few places that we haven't been.
[39:38.540 --> 39:40.240]  Africa, we should explore more of Africa.
[39:40.440 --> 39:41.420]  I haven't explored any of that.
[39:43.040 --> 39:46.400]  You know, if there are people there to show us around, it makes it a lot easier.
[39:46.600 --> 39:48.020]  So that definitely helps.
[39:48.080 --> 39:55.520]  If somebody says, yes, I live in Greenland and I'll, I'll be, you know, I can show you some cool, you know, glaciers before they fall apart.
[39:56.880 --> 39:57.760]  We'd be into that.
[39:57.900 --> 39:58.120]  Sure.
[39:58.320 --> 39:58.600]  Absolutely.
[39:59.240 --> 40:03.440]  That reminds me, I forgot to tell you, Emmanuel, I will be overseas next week.
[40:03.780 --> 40:07.060]  So I'll be doing a show from another remote location next, next week.
[40:07.180 --> 40:08.260]  So that, so that'll be fun.
[40:08.780 --> 40:09.180]  Yeah.
[40:11.000 --> 40:26.460]  One of the things that I want to say too, about the show, just over the years, over the decades that it's been on too, is, is not only, I think, is it in a very accurate historical record of everything that's been happening within the hacker community going back 36,
[40:26.640 --> 40:27.600]  37 years now.
[40:27.920 --> 40:31.700]  And as Rob indicated, you can go back to the archives and listen to all of this.
[40:31.860 --> 40:45.480]  And I, I think some of the, I think some of the best shows are in the 90s when they're talking about things like the clipper chip and, and, and various things that, you know, have really become, you can see a real through line from those fights and those battles that we were talking about to the,
[40:45.540 --> 40:48.060]  to the very types of technologies that we're using today.
[40:48.600 --> 40:58.560]  But so many people that have been involved with the show, that have been involved with 2600, and could have been forgotten when they went away to prison or never forgotten on the show.
[40:58.980 --> 41:05.600]  And I'm talking about people like Kevin Mitnick and Phiber Optik, Bernie S, Virgil Griffith.
[41:06.780 --> 41:16.720]  And, and, you know, Virgil, I think is one of the last people that we, we went to on an excursion and we recorded, I think that was a really amazing show when we went out to Pennsylvania and visited Virgil.
[41:17.520 --> 41:29.360]  And so I, I think that the show is also a way for the community to come to rally together and for, and, and remember and, and not forget and honor the people that have really made such great sacrifices for our community too.
[41:29.720 --> 41:32.160]  So curious what you guys have to say about that.
[41:33.680 --> 41:34.480]  Yeah, definitely.
[41:34.760 --> 41:41.520]  Like as a historical archive Off The Hook, you know, in my time on it, in the time before me, it's just amazing.
[41:41.640 --> 41:54.820]  We had an, we had an artist that very sadly also no longer with us named Ed Piskor, who, um, without knowing anything about the hacker world, the hacker community was just passed the link to Off The Hook to as something to listen to while he was drawing.
[41:55.080 --> 42:12.420]  And he ended up listening from the beginning, listening to the, and through the entire show up to that point, which was, I want to say, uh, 15 years ago or something, um, and drew a comic, a graphic novel, um, called WYSIWYG, which was based on the cases of Kevin Mitnick,
[42:12.500 --> 42:14.040]  Bernie S and everything, but fictionalized.
[42:14.160 --> 42:18.200]  There's a fictional counterpart to a manual, um, in, in the book and everything.
[42:18.260 --> 42:24.060]  And he just created this great piece of, uh, of fiction, which was set in hacker culture of the nineties.
[42:24.540 --> 42:31.420]  And, uh, you know, this wonderful creative work came out of just getting massive history lessons through listening to our program.
[42:32.920 --> 42:50.920]  One experience that we had fairly recently, which was also amazing is because again, at its heart, we are a show on local radio in New York, but when we had the guests from the phone store in Wisconsin, those, that was an amazing show.
[42:51.060 --> 42:59.840]  I loved those people and having the chance to open up their world to us and our world to them.
[42:59.980 --> 43:03.900]  Cause I know a lot of people in New York don't know where Wisconsin is even.
[43:04.880 --> 43:06.700]  So thank you.
[43:07.140 --> 43:09.520]  So that was, I adored that.
[43:09.540 --> 43:11.180]  And I do hope we can get there sometime.
[43:11.540 --> 43:11.840]  Yeah.
[43:12.620 --> 43:20.940]  So, uh, I would make a couple of comments that I, it is very surreal to have been a listener and then start participating.
[43:20.940 --> 43:34.880]  And that's partly something I've grappled with and, um, realizing that so much of my opinions and what we've discussed has been sort of a, an audio journal over the years is, is it's, is remarkable.
[43:35.080 --> 43:37.120]  And I'm, I'm, I'm happy for it.
[43:37.200 --> 43:39.900]  I do cherish that we are recording a lot of that stuff.
[43:40.760 --> 43:47.040]  I, lots of times we don't know what to say and, and, um, our opinions might change over time.
[43:47.400 --> 44:03.660]  And I, I've, I've taken to stop listening and, and so much happens, um, that we're working on, that we're trying to document or, uh, come up with, or whatever we talk about the, because as was said earlier, we don't really plan it out formally.
[44:03.840 --> 44:08.300]  We, we often don't know what we're going to be discussing necessarily other than general stuff.
[44:08.800 --> 44:15.920]  Uh, it's important to have something to go back and realize, oh, wow, that was something we covered or we talked about years ago.
[44:16.060 --> 44:19.940]  And as far as traveling and stuff like that, we're, we're definitely open to that.
[44:20.080 --> 44:28.600]  And as I talked about earlier, there's a lot of ability with doing, um, live remotes or also just recording and, and replaying as we do.
[44:29.380 --> 44:31.580]  Um, and then also the thank you and acknowledgement.
[44:31.580 --> 44:32.500]  I really appreciate that.
[44:32.740 --> 44:41.340]  Um, we are taken to having a, a healthy dose of, of altruism in our, our contributions.
[44:41.380 --> 44:45.280]  And, um, we love the people that listen.
[44:45.420 --> 44:53.540]  And sometimes for me personally, it feels like we're not all, we don't get that feedback necessarily.
[44:53.540 --> 44:58.660]  And I think people that have critiques are a little bit more forthcoming with their critiques.
[44:58.920 --> 45:09.920]  Um, and so it doesn't always feel to me like the, the show loves us back and that it, the reward of it is, is worth the effort.
[45:10.060 --> 45:23.380]  So I really appreciate the acknowledgement and that people, that it matters to people because it can be hard sometimes to understand the effect you're having and like, does it matter if you even keep doing it?
[45:23.380 --> 45:28.220]  So it's interesting to hear that stuff, uh, from such a personal level from people.
[45:28.380 --> 45:36.820]  So I just wanted to say that that's, that's really appreciated because holding so much together is, is, uh, it's, it's a lot of work and I know everybody pours their heart into it.
[45:37.520 --> 45:42.860]  Can I just say, um, the, the fact that we have an archive is so important.
[45:43.280 --> 45:52.060]  Uh, it goes back to, uh, when I first started in radio at WUSB, uh, I did a show with a, a good friend of mine, I'm still friends with her to this day named Mike Uhas.
[45:52.280 --> 45:54.280]  Uh, we did a show called The Voice of Long Island.
[45:54.580 --> 45:59.840]  Last night we got email from somebody saying, Hey, I just listened to an episode of that show from the early 1980s.
[45:59.920 --> 46:01.460]  They still get something out of that.
[46:01.560 --> 46:02.660]  Listeners are still out there.
[46:02.880 --> 46:11.680]  Uh, and I, I would never would have even thought to record what we do or not for Mike, who would, because we didn't have a working cassette player in the radio station.
[46:11.880 --> 46:20.300]  He would log in, uh, this, this gigantic, uh, cassette recorder and plug it into our patch bay and record our show week after week.
[46:20.440 --> 46:23.260]  And it was because of that, that we had that library.
[46:23.260 --> 46:27.960]  And I realized if I'm going to do radio, I should probably record what I do and have it for the future.
[46:28.100 --> 46:35.140]  Even though, you know, you never want to hear yourself and you, you, you always are thinking in your head what you want to say and not, and you don't say.
[46:35.280 --> 46:39.940]  So it's, it's worse to you than it is when people listen to it without knowing that.
[46:40.280 --> 46:46.640]  So, you know, all credit to him for us recording Off The Hook all these years and having those recordings.
[46:46.880 --> 46:48.920]  You hear the way the phone system used to work.
[46:49.080 --> 46:51.520]  You hear how society was different.
[46:51.700 --> 46:52.740]  You hear how we were different.
[46:53.100 --> 46:58.860]  So if you're going to get involved in anything that, uh, involves recording something, save it.
[46:59.000 --> 46:59.760]  Don't throw it out.
[46:59.880 --> 47:00.720]  Don't think it's worthless.
[47:00.880 --> 47:01.720]  It's worth something.
[47:02.080 --> 47:03.740]  And people will be fascinated.
[47:03.860 --> 47:10.200]  The people who tell you don't record me, they're the ones that are, that are, uh, most interested in seeing what they look like later on.
[47:10.860 --> 47:14.720]  Um, don't record people though without their permission, because that's, that's, that's not cool.
[47:14.840 --> 47:15.600]  I didn't mean it that way.
[47:16.020 --> 47:24.820]  I'm talking about, you know, recording people, uh, uh, relatives and, and, and, and things like that, just doing your own personal stuff and being involved in broadcasting.
[47:25.000 --> 47:25.820]  It's, it's really awesome.
[47:25.980 --> 47:31.300]  We have nine minutes left and a question down there, and we have a question in the room.
[47:31.560 --> 47:37.800]  So y'all can use this time however you want, but I'm going to read the question from the Internet and then you're next.
[47:38.880 --> 47:41.360]  Um, question from Hev.
[47:41.860 --> 47:46.660]  Would you ever consider doing another program like Shadow Over Long Island?
[47:48.180 --> 47:51.180]  And people are saying cactus for some reason in this room.
[47:51.380 --> 47:52.060]  I don't know what that is.
[47:52.120 --> 47:52.800]  People are saying what?
[47:53.300 --> 47:53.740]  Cactus.
[47:54.080 --> 47:54.640]  Cactus, cactus, cactus.
[47:54.960 --> 47:56.140]  Those are, I believe those are for me.
[47:56.440 --> 48:09.380]  Well, um, Shadow Over Long Island, uh, for those who don't know, is a radio play that I wrote back in the nineties, um, about a fictitious nuclear power plant on Long Island that had a meltdown.
[48:09.600 --> 48:17.800]  Now at the time, uh, um, there was, there were plans to build a nuclear power plant on Long Island in, in the village of Shoreham.
[48:17.920 --> 48:19.540]  Uh, and it was very controversial.
[48:19.540 --> 48:31.960]  So, you know, doing a fictitious radio show in real time about a fictitious, um, nuclear power plant in the Shoreham area, you know, it was, it was kind of like a war of the worlds type of a thing.
[48:32.060 --> 48:32.720]  And it was meant to be.
[48:33.040 --> 48:44.020]  Uh, and it, it got a lot of attention, got a lot of publicity, but we raised some really good points as far as the lack of an evacuation plan and just how people would respond if something went wrong.
[48:44.020 --> 48:45.040]  We're on an island.
[48:45.380 --> 48:47.320]  There's only one way off that island.
[48:47.580 --> 48:50.580]  Uh, and it was, uh, you know, it made people think.
[48:50.740 --> 48:54.660]  And eventually they canceled that nuclear power plant, which, uh, I thought was the right move.
[48:55.140 --> 48:58.500]  Uh, so yeah, it was, it was a lot of fun to, to write something like that.
[48:58.680 --> 49:04.240]  We had so many people from WUSB participate in, in the production, uh, of that radio play.
[49:04.480 --> 49:06.320]  And sure, I'd love to do something like that again.
[49:06.500 --> 49:08.920]  If they try to build another nuclear plant, I'll definitely do a sequel.
[49:08.920 --> 49:14.800]  Uh, but, uh, yeah, there's probably a lot of things that we could do radio plays, uh, about.
[49:15.000 --> 49:15.680]  I'm, I'm sure of it.
[49:16.280 --> 49:16.680]  Yeah.
[49:16.680 --> 49:17.580]  It's the magic of radio.
[49:17.760 --> 49:18.580]  You can, you can do that.
[49:19.080 --> 49:23.820]  And, and Gila and I have also dabbled in some audio fiction and, uh, we'll probably do more of in future.
[49:24.640 --> 49:25.760]  Let's get this question.
[49:26.780 --> 49:29.180]  My question is, uh, one of demographics.
[49:29.560 --> 49:31.980]  I look around and I see some gray hair.
[49:32.260 --> 49:33.720]  I'm glad that we're all here.
[49:34.160 --> 49:35.420]  This generation is here.
[49:35.560 --> 49:36.100]  We're represented.
[49:36.340 --> 49:37.700]  I feel like hacker culture.
[49:38.400 --> 49:41.160]  You guys are doing, uh, work and preserving a lot of that.
[49:41.260 --> 49:42.700]  We talked about that preservation effort.
[49:42.960 --> 49:45.340]  Um, there's a lot of lessons there that can be learned.
[49:45.460 --> 49:51.040]  I feel like it's especially prescient, relevant for our times, but I'm curious about demographics.
[49:51.520 --> 49:56.620]  And are we seeing younger folks learning anything from this?
[49:56.940 --> 49:59.900]  And, uh, are you optimistic about that?
[50:00.440 --> 50:01.600]  Uh, yeah.
[50:01.600 --> 50:01.660]  Yeah.
[50:02.720 --> 50:05.280]  I have a lot to say about this issue.
[50:05.540 --> 50:09.260]  Um, and I have, like, no time to say it.
[50:09.380 --> 50:17.920]  I will say, uh, uh, uh, specifically, short answer is, I think this is a huge issue.
[50:18.060 --> 50:29.380]  I think specifically with, with our mission, like we, uh, the HOPE event as well as the magazine come from a specific corner of things.
[50:29.620 --> 50:32.140]  It is not representative of the entirety of it.
[50:32.240 --> 50:57.060]  And in many ways, a lot of this culture has itself grown and become, and in some, some ways mainstream, but for us, we have to do a little bit more work, um, bridging that and make, creating understanding around what applies from some of the older stories and the older tech,
[50:57.420 --> 51:00.620]  how that may be different for different generations.
[51:00.900 --> 51:11.340]  For my experience, an example I use a lot is most of the things that, uh, maybe Alex or other generations, I think that's the cutoff.
[51:11.460 --> 51:12.480]  You and I have talked about this.
[51:12.660 --> 51:15.660]  They were straight up illegal by the time I was getting interested.
[51:15.900 --> 51:20.280]  All I wanted to do was learn something other than a graphic user interface.
[51:20.580 --> 51:23.240]  Like, that was kind of a big milestone for me.
[51:23.500 --> 51:27.440]  But transgressing the law, like, a lot of that was already on the books.
[51:27.440 --> 51:32.220]  Um, I don't have much time, so I'm just going to put the microphone down now.
[51:32.440 --> 51:36.860]  I wish I could speak more, and I, I really do have a lot of, uh, feelings about this.
[51:37.080 --> 51:48.400]  We have got to get, uh, a lot of understanding and patience, and, um... I also think you'll see all of us around the conference, and we'd love to talk with you about this.
[51:48.560 --> 51:49.720]  So, you know, feel free to come up to us.
[51:49.720 --> 51:50.560]  Please ask us more.
[51:50.680 --> 51:51.260]  Yeah, thank you.
[51:51.860 --> 51:56.520]  Big round of applause as they wrap it up.