[00:01.080 --> 00:06.340]  So, up next we have a two-person panel that I think might actually morph into a somewhat larger panel.
[00:06.620 --> 00:08.340]  Yeah, let's call it a fishbowl.
[00:08.620 --> 00:14.020]  Okay, and this is something that probably most of the people in the room are aware of.
[00:14.220 --> 00:17.180]  And if you're not, then certainly you'll want to get on the Internet.
[00:17.360 --> 00:23.800]  I'm sure you have some awareness, but if you haven't read it, certainly you'll want to get on the Internet and read it and form your own opinion.
[00:24.060 --> 00:28.000]  And I don't think it's too late to have some controversy on this.
[00:28.000 --> 00:30.260]  I'd say possibly the controversy is...
[00:30.260 --> 00:31.820]  It's never too late for controversy.
[00:32.360 --> 00:33.160]  It's ongoing.
[00:34.220 --> 00:34.660]  Drama.
[00:35.080 --> 00:35.880]  I mean, that's what we need.
[00:36.280 --> 00:39.900]  So, Johannes and Sean are going to talk about hacking the spaces.
[00:40.440 --> 00:40.680]  Oh, yeah.
[00:40.800 --> 00:41.200]  Thanks a lot.
[00:41.480 --> 00:41.600]  Okay.
[00:42.040 --> 00:42.480]  Yay!
[00:43.020 --> 00:44.040]  Oh, sorry.
[00:44.560 --> 00:45.560]  I did that.
[00:45.860 --> 00:46.040]  Did I?
[00:46.200 --> 00:48.200]  Can we actually turn the lights on?
[00:48.200 --> 00:49.160]  Can we turn the lights on?
[00:49.240 --> 00:50.260]  That would actually be nice.
[00:50.360 --> 00:56.480]  Because what we don't want with this panel here is to have the preaching situation.
[00:56.480 --> 00:59.480]  So, maybe could we turn the...
[00:59.480 --> 00:59.780]  Yeah.
[01:00.060 --> 01:00.180]  Yeah.
[01:00.280 --> 01:00.660]  That's perfect.
[01:00.740 --> 01:00.880]  Perfect.
[01:00.960 --> 01:01.140]  Thank you.
[01:01.140 --> 01:01.780]  Let's leave it that way.
[01:01.940 --> 01:02.400]  Okay.
[01:02.520 --> 01:07.000]  Because I really like to... I hope you would like to see the audience.
[01:07.320 --> 01:07.700]  Okay.
[01:08.120 --> 01:09.920]  Which should not be the audience, actually.
[01:10.260 --> 01:10.460]  Okay.
[01:10.620 --> 01:10.840]  Yes.
[01:10.860 --> 01:12.840]  The backstory is just a quick question.
[01:13.060 --> 01:18.480]  Anyone down there read the pamphlet that I co-wrote three years ago?
[01:18.900 --> 01:19.780]  We got one.
[01:20.140 --> 01:20.860]  We got... okay.
[01:21.160 --> 01:21.420]  Two.
[01:21.600 --> 01:22.240]  That's kind of bad.
[01:23.040 --> 01:23.520]  Okay.
[01:23.520 --> 01:24.320]  Doesn't matter.
[01:25.080 --> 01:25.860]  Backstory is that...
[01:25.860 --> 01:26.960]  So, he's going to read it for you, right?
[01:27.100 --> 01:27.220]  Yeah.
[01:28.420 --> 01:30.440]  I have it on my iPhone.
[01:31.220 --> 01:31.280]  Yeah.
[01:32.340 --> 01:32.540]  Okay.
[01:32.760 --> 02:01.900]  So, the backstory is that three years ago, in 2009, my fellow co-wrote at Monochrom, the Art and Technology Collective I'm part of, Frank Appung Schneider, who is a German, and myself, an Austrian, we had this urge to write a critical pamphlet, like a rant about what was going on back then in hackerspaces and I think is still going on.
[02:02.000 --> 02:11.040]  We called it Hacking the Spaces because we thought and we still think that what's going on in hackerspaces is very representative for what's going on in culture in general.
[02:11.040 --> 02:25.100]  That hackerspaces think they are very open, inclusionist living space, but at the same time, they're actually like white boys clubs who try to get out everything that is not like them.
[02:25.900 --> 02:31.020]  And that's pretty much like the basic critique we formulated.
[02:31.020 --> 02:48.600]  And we went back to the 1960s and 1970s because we think, and many people actually started a debate about that later on, we think that hackerspaces have a clear counter-cultural history going back to the 60s and 70s.
[02:49.220 --> 02:59.260]  I wrote with Frank that when the hippies kind of like realized that they failed in their dream to change society as a whole.
[02:59.800 --> 03:23.160]  Something really interesting in the 70s and early 80s started that, especially with the punk movement, new wave, squatting, alternative daycare centers, like any kind of non-authoritarian structures that were built in the 70s and early 80s, were a direct result to the failed dream of the hippies that we can change the world as a whole.
[03:23.340 --> 03:24.240]  And that never happened.
[03:24.240 --> 03:37.280]  So they said, why not trying to create small temporary autonomous zones, or whatever you call it, within this bourgeois darkness, where we can actually live in a way that we want to live in.
[03:37.520 --> 03:43.980]  Like early, like gay culture had a couple of interesting spaces in that times when it was...
[03:43.980 --> 03:47.080]  It's still kind of dangerous nowadays.
[03:47.540 --> 03:49.980]  But you know what I'm referring to.
[03:49.980 --> 03:56.660]  So that why not creating spaces within the system where we can live in a way we want to live.
[03:56.900 --> 04:06.920]  Of course, that's to a certain extent kind of like trying to pop out of the system or trying to get out of the system doesn't really put you out of the system.
[04:07.060 --> 04:10.100]  But at least you can try to make a difference.
[04:10.100 --> 04:29.220]  And hackerspaces, the first hackerspaces and the first DIY collectives and the first people who started kind of like owning or renting or squatting, you know, warehouses and stuff like that in San Francisco, but also in Berlin or in the Netherlands.
[04:29.220 --> 04:36.600]  They said, hey, if we squat a building, we need the infrastructure to keep that building intact.
[04:36.600 --> 04:42.620]  So if we squat somewhere, we need tools to actually fix the water supplies, all of that.
[04:43.760 --> 04:51.020]  So from a really direct perspective of we want to live in a building that nobody takes care of, we need to take care of that.
[04:51.020 --> 04:53.840]  So that was one aspect of early hackerspaces.
[04:54.180 --> 04:57.920]  We want to live somewhere, we need to repair the place and we need to keep it running.
[04:58.440 --> 05:16.280]  And the other way, Silicon Valley, West Coast, first interesting things happened as a result to the failing hippie movement in Silicon Valley when small workshops were created to, well, we want to make a political difference here.
[05:16.360 --> 05:19.700]  We want to try, we want to play with stuff, we want to play with technology.
[05:19.700 --> 05:20.940]  How can we do that?
[05:21.040 --> 05:26.960]  We cannot really afford the rent for a real warehouse, but we can do something in our own flats.
[05:27.240 --> 05:37.420]  So flatmates, mostly, of course, white back then, started acquiring old infrastructure, using that, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.
[05:37.560 --> 05:43.040]  The whole thing goes on, of course, until the mid-2000s.
[05:43.040 --> 05:50.160]  Because the first really, what I would call the Cambrian explosion of hackerspaces was in 2006 and 2007.
[05:50.480 --> 06:02.460]  There were at least three or four generations of hackerspaces before this giant explosion in 2007 that kind of happened after the CCC camp in Finuford.
[06:02.460 --> 06:10.340]  When many people there, and especially Jens Olick, who always deserves a lot of applause, wrote the hackerspaces design patterns.
[06:10.660 --> 06:33.240]  And when that happened, and people like Jacob Applebaum or Mitch Altman saw hackerspaces in Vienna, in Berlin, exported this very kind of like European, almost, I wouldn't call it socialist, but very, very, let's work together, have a solidarity movement of having third spaces in a sociological term.
[06:33.380 --> 06:37.240]  A third space is a space that's not a working space and not a living space.
[06:37.380 --> 06:40.020]  It's something in between a working space and a living space.
[06:40.240 --> 06:46.680]  So these spaces in various European countries were growing.
[06:46.960 --> 06:52.780]  They had more membership and got a lot of attention at the CCC camp in 2007.
[06:53.500 --> 07:09.400]  And then this kind of European model of the hackerspace got exported to strange places like the United States of America or Canada or Indonesia and stuff like that.
[07:09.580 --> 07:12.260]  I don't say that hackerspaces did not exist.
[07:13.240 --> 07:15.160]  I mean, the L0pht is a good example.
[07:15.340 --> 07:35.200]  But the L0phtt, if you take the L0phtt and compare the L0pht to Noisebridge in San Francisco nowadays, which is kind of like derived from what happened in Berlin and Vienna, then the L0phtt is a different form of hackerspace than these community spaces and building and working spaces that we have nowadays.
[07:35.540 --> 07:36.840]  Thanks for taking pictures.
[07:37.000 --> 07:37.680]  That's kind of creepy.
[07:38.320 --> 07:38.320]  No problem.
[07:38.420 --> 07:40.500]  Just f*cking keep going.
[07:43.140 --> 07:52.280]  So, the problem that we addressed in hacking the spaces was that many people nowadays forget about the past of hackerspaces.
[07:52.520 --> 07:55.120]  There would not be this Cameron explosion of hackerspaces.
[07:55.200 --> 08:03.760]  There wouldn't be that many hackerspaces nowadays without a long tradition of things happening in the last 30, 40, 50, maybe even longer.
[08:03.760 --> 08:09.280]  There's a counter-cultural tradition that we have to refer to, and people nowadays forget about that.
[08:09.400 --> 08:17.100]  They say, well, I just want to make something with an Arduino, and I want to do that in Brunswick, Texas, so let's make a hackerspace.
[08:17.700 --> 08:21.480]  Of course, there's a clear, yeah, why not do that?
[08:21.600 --> 08:22.240]  Of course, yeah?
[08:22.680 --> 08:31.580]  But don't forget that you, like, forgetting the history of the movement is forgetting yourself and the potential that you have and that you could have.
[08:35.820 --> 08:49.740]  I don't want to dictate what people should do in their hackerspaces, but I urge people to reconsider what has been done and why this stuff has been done, and why we should probably at least try to keep going on.
[08:50.500 --> 09:01.660]  Many people nowadays work, then they go to hackerspaces, work there, go home, and most of them are white males.
[09:01.660 --> 09:03.000]  That's how it is.
[09:03.700 --> 09:08.000]  Even in Germany, there's a longer tradition of hackerspaces than, for example, in the U.S.
[09:08.220 --> 09:19.980]  Even in Germany, it's hard to find Turkish members in German hackerspaces because, of course, people like people who are like themselves in the places they hang out.
[09:19.980 --> 09:27.700]  And that's why usually hackerspaces are predominantly white male, hetero... I can even say heterosexist, yeah.
[09:28.180 --> 09:38.620]  But the whole debate of trying getting women into hackerspaces, I mean, it's going on and going on.
[09:38.700 --> 09:40.680]  And there are many, many different views to see that.
[09:40.920 --> 09:42.980]  Many people say we really have to do that.
[09:43.060 --> 09:46.800]  We even have to force women into hackerspaces.
[09:50.160 --> 09:51.580]  That's illegal in some states.
[09:51.600 --> 09:52.640]  Yeah, it is, it is, yeah.
[09:52.760 --> 09:54.840]  We can do that in Iran, I think.
[09:57.540 --> 10:00.880]  But, I mean, I like certain affirmative action programs, yeah.
[10:01.080 --> 10:12.500]  But still, there has to be a clear balance because you want to work with people, you want to have fun with people, you want to explore each other and technology in hackerspaces, and you never can force something.
[10:12.500 --> 10:25.560]  But the very moment people think about what they're doing, and why they're like six dudes sitting in a dark corner, and no one else going there, and they still think they're like the... it's the nerd utopia they have.
[10:25.880 --> 10:26.640]  That's not.
[10:26.840 --> 10:27.480]  No, it's not.
[10:28.020 --> 10:36.120]  Because the main problem we have as a nerd culture, and hacking culture is a nerd culture, is, first of all, we're getting mainstream.
[10:36.120 --> 10:37.120]  You know?
[10:37.240 --> 10:38.720]  That's a good thing on the one side.
[10:38.840 --> 10:46.420]  On the other hand, we shouldn't, like, stop considering that we're all a generation of self-exploiters.
[10:46.540 --> 10:53.040]  And we should kind of, like, think what we're doing, and where we invest money, and who is exploiting us, and how we exploit other people.
[10:53.160 --> 10:54.160]  So that's very important.
[10:54.500 --> 11:09.540]  And it's also important to remember that only because you surround yourself with things that you like and know, that doesn't mean that that's how it should be.
[11:10.820 --> 11:16.620]  I think I'd just, like, stop talking now, because I think that's a pretty much basic intro I wanted to give anyhow.
[11:17.300 --> 11:22.020]  And now I'd like to introduce Sean Bonner, who is sitting next to me.
[11:22.520 --> 11:30.900]  Sean is here on stage because I invited him, because for a long, long time he has been working in many, many different subcultures.
[11:30.900 --> 11:38.240]  The main problem of subcultures is, the deeper down you go into subcultures, the less, for example, female members there are.
[11:38.480 --> 11:43.900]  If you go to the deeper level of underground culture, you almost hit the ground of elitism.
[11:44.380 --> 11:49.680]  Because it's mostly, like, male groups liking each other.
[11:49.680 --> 12:03.240]  And the higher the level of the indie-dom in subculture comes, the more women are coming into the play, because they are not as segregated, and they are not as turned off by what's going on.
[12:03.380 --> 12:04.840]  But we can talk about that later on.
[12:05.020 --> 12:10.420]  What I wanted to talk to Sean about is, he ran a gallery space.
[12:10.420 --> 12:12.480]  So he knows about the art scene.
[12:12.640 --> 12:14.200]  He had a record label.
[12:14.200 --> 12:19.240]  So he worked in many, many different areas of subculture and independent culture.
[12:19.500 --> 12:22.580]  And I would like to ask you if you...
[12:22.580 --> 12:28.820]  And now you are one of the founders, and you're running Crash Space, Hackerspace in L.A.
[12:29.040 --> 12:30.240]  And I wanted to ask you...
[12:30.240 --> 12:32.140]  It's very generous to say that I run it, because...
[12:32.140 --> 12:33.140]  Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[12:33.240 --> 12:34.540]  Everybody else there does it.
[12:34.640 --> 12:35.460]  I never...
[12:35.460 --> 12:38.760]  Everyone runs a Hackerspace, I hope, except the benevolent dictator.
[12:39.040 --> 12:41.140]  But I mean, I don't even show up, because I'm traveling.
[12:41.140 --> 12:42.140]  Yeah, yeah.
[12:42.540 --> 12:42.880]  Hi, guys.
[12:43.160 --> 12:47.760]  So my question would be, do you think that there is a way to see...
[12:47.760 --> 12:51.720]  And I still think there is a crisis of Hackerspaces going on right now.
[12:51.840 --> 12:52.680]  And there's a certain...
[12:52.680 --> 12:55.000]  They're still growing, but where are they growing?
[12:55.280 --> 12:57.180]  So is the growth a cancer?
[12:57.320 --> 12:58.340]  Is the growth something good, yeah?
[12:59.480 --> 13:11.540]  My question would be, if you take all the subcultures and indie cultures you have been involved into and compare the problems and struggles there with the struggles in Hackerspaces, is there something to learn from that?
[13:12.800 --> 13:21.200]  Yeah, I mean, the same problems show up again and again and again in all of these subcultures that I've seen, personally, that I've been a part of.
[13:22.300 --> 13:29.280]  And the same people complain about them, and the same people think that they're the only ones complaining about them, and they think that these problems are unique to them.
[13:29.280 --> 13:31.660]  But in fact, these problems exist everywhere.
[13:31.940 --> 13:44.560]  And I think that the main solution that I've seen in all of this stuff is that the more people sit around complaining about it, the worse it gets.
[13:44.800 --> 13:48.680]  Whereas when people stop complaining about it and just do something to make it better...
[13:48.680 --> 13:49.980]  So we make it all worse now.
[13:50.120 --> 13:51.580]  Yes, this panel makes it worse.
[13:53.680 --> 13:55.620]  No, so I'll give an example of that.
[13:55.800 --> 13:57.400]  So you talked about Crash Base.
[13:57.520 --> 14:00.400]  So Crash Base, as of like last month, I think...
[14:01.320 --> 14:04.000]  So we've been around for, I think, three years now.
[14:04.120 --> 14:10.660]  And as of last month, our membership is officially 50-50 male and female, which we are pretty excited about.
[14:10.900 --> 14:10.980]  Oh!
[14:14.340 --> 14:20.840]  We had a couple girls as founding pieces of it.
[14:21.180 --> 14:25.040]  Carlin Ma, who's been here before, is one of the very original founders of it.
[14:25.180 --> 14:26.560]  But that wasn't always the case.
[14:26.740 --> 14:31.240]  In fact, the first like six months or eight months of it, it was like 99% dudes.
[14:31.860 --> 14:37.000]  And, you know, there was a lot of conversations amongst those dudes about how come there aren't girls coming out.
[14:37.000 --> 14:38.220]  And, you know, people were really upset.
[14:38.340 --> 14:43.340]  And there was lots of hand-wringing about it and pointing of fingers of how, you know, there needed to be more girls.
[14:44.200 --> 15:02.480]  And finally, there was someone on the mailing list who chimed in and said that something that I thought actually made a lot of sense, and I hadn't realized that the exact same thing had happened in sort of punk rock and everything else before, was that a bunch of dudes sitting around complaining that there's no girls does not attract girls.
[15:04.680 --> 15:08.460]  Like really, like there's nothing appealing about that at all.
[15:08.640 --> 15:16.560]  And so like just shutting up about that and like inviting your friends to come hang out makes all the difference in the world.
[15:16.660 --> 15:16.720]  Right?
[15:16.800 --> 15:21.600]  Like if we're just complaining that there's no girls here, and how come there's not more girls here, that doesn't help.
[15:21.700 --> 15:27.180]  But like, you know, if I go invite my friends who are girls to come hang out, that makes a difference.
[15:27.180 --> 15:27.500]  Right?
[15:27.680 --> 15:37.720]  And so, you know, like around our year anniversary, that was sort of like the decision that we all came to, was just like stop f*cking complaining and like do something.
[15:38.040 --> 15:40.160]  And that made all the difference.
[15:40.300 --> 15:48.620]  And I think that's a big key piece of this, is that when people actually like think of a solution and move for it, that's what changes things.
[15:48.800 --> 15:51.620]  But like just complaining, not so much.
[15:51.620 --> 16:00.780]  The main problem, I think, is that there are people, there's a difference between trying to analyze a situation and trying to find out what's going on and complaining.
[16:01.140 --> 16:01.240]  Right.
[16:01.400 --> 16:02.080]  Yeah, absolutely.
[16:02.560 --> 16:03.040]  Well, admit it.
[16:03.340 --> 16:06.220]  I mean, seeing that there's a problem is one thing.
[16:07.800 --> 16:09.500]  And that makes a big difference.
[16:09.700 --> 16:15.560]  You know, like, there's not a lot of people that are exclusionary by choice.
[16:15.800 --> 16:18.360]  You know, I mean, those people are douchebags and you don't want to hang out with them anyway.
[16:18.360 --> 16:26.440]  But the people who are exclusionary by accident, once they realize that they're being exclusionary, often, you know, they'll want to try to figure out how to not be.
[16:26.660 --> 16:27.920]  And that's a good piece.
[16:28.080 --> 16:33.320]  But isn't a key element of hacker culture being an elitist?
[16:34.240 --> 16:34.680]  Sure.
[16:38.460 --> 16:39.560]  Yeah, of course.
[16:39.860 --> 16:43.860]  But how can you be an elitist in the same way, trying to be open to the new?
[16:45.320 --> 16:45.820]  I don't know.
[16:47.540 --> 16:49.500]  Maybe the Germans have the answer.
[16:49.740 --> 16:55.940]  I already talked to a couple of members of German hackerspaces, or former members of German hackerspaces.
[16:56.040 --> 16:57.160]  They're sitting right there.
[16:57.380 --> 16:59.120]  And I don't know, whoever wants...
[16:59.120 --> 17:01.580]  I'd like to have two of you on stage, please.
[17:03.660 --> 17:04.340]  Do it.
[17:04.620 --> 17:06.020]  A big applause for the Germans.
[17:07.920 --> 17:09.640]  Of course, it's the dudes coming.
[17:09.780 --> 17:12.320]  Why is not she coming?
[17:12.760 --> 17:13.120]  Okay.
[17:13.520 --> 17:14.240]  Bring it on.
[17:19.860 --> 17:20.220]  Okay.
[17:20.560 --> 17:22.620]  And there are even three microphones, so perfect.
[17:23.560 --> 17:23.920]  Okay.
[17:24.240 --> 17:27.160]  The reason is why I have them on stage first here.
[17:27.340 --> 17:33.780]  And I would like to, like, if you want to be on stage later on, we want to hear their statements, and then I want to get more people on stage.
[17:33.800 --> 17:36.860]  So you can already think about your statement, if you have one, and you can come up here.
[17:36.860 --> 17:37.500]  Okay.
[17:38.220 --> 17:38.740]  So...
[17:39.960 --> 17:55.180]  Do you, in general, agree with my opening statement of, like, hackerspaces having a longer tradition in Europe, or that the format of the hackerspace that was predominantly European got exported to the U.S. or Canada in a certain way, do you think?
[17:56.780 --> 17:57.300]  Oh...
[17:57.300 --> 17:57.880]  Microphone.
[17:58.060 --> 17:58.360]  Interesting.
[17:59.600 --> 18:03.920]  I don't know, really, because I've never been to the U.S. hackerspace scene before.
[18:03.920 --> 18:10.560]  I reread the book Hackers by Steven Levi recently, and clearly that can't be the entire story.
[18:11.660 --> 18:15.800]  But certainly there has been a big push after the camp.
[18:17.700 --> 18:18.960]  And, yeah, I don't know.
[18:19.100 --> 18:24.340]  I've stopped being active in hackerspaces basically around the same time, because I moved and stuff.
[18:24.560 --> 18:27.760]  So, personally, I don't know if I'm the right person to ask.
[18:27.860 --> 18:29.820]  Well, chiming in from the U.S.
[18:30.140 --> 18:30.260]  Yeah.
[18:30.440 --> 18:33.820]  I think every hackerspace I know of in the U.S. has definitely been influenced by that.
[18:33.820 --> 18:43.240]  I mean, like, we opened Crash Space because, you know, everyone in LA had been to Europe, or, you know, the other hackerspaces that were open because of that.
[18:43.400 --> 18:45.120]  We're like, we've got to have this in Los Angeles.
[18:45.300 --> 18:46.200]  So, I mean, I think that...
[18:46.200 --> 18:53.080]  And the fact that they've only been around for a handful of years in the U.S., and they've been around for much, much, much longer, is clearly influenced.
[18:53.080 --> 18:58.240]  There's definitely a relationship why that happened in 2007 and 2008 is...
[18:58.240 --> 18:59.500]  I'm pretty sure about that.
[18:59.600 --> 19:06.580]  There are even statistics that many people in the tech community got fired because of the crisis of 2008.
[19:07.000 --> 19:09.300]  And their creative potential had to go somewhere.
[19:09.460 --> 19:10.480]  So, they didn't have a job anymore.
[19:10.620 --> 19:12.220]  They were, like, kind of like, we want to do stuff.
[19:12.220 --> 19:14.100]  So, ah, there's a hackerspace.
[19:14.200 --> 19:15.620]  Let's go there and work there.
[19:15.740 --> 19:21.820]  So, there was a certain interesting creative output of the crisis.
[19:22.540 --> 19:23.760]  And I kind of like that.
[19:23.840 --> 19:27.600]  That there's something good coming out of this disaster that happened.
[19:27.820 --> 19:28.800]  Never waste a crisis.
[19:29.080 --> 19:29.980]  Never waste a crisis.
[19:30.160 --> 19:30.200]  Yeah.
[19:30.800 --> 19:31.020]  That's...
[19:31.020 --> 19:31.780]  Talk...
[19:31.780 --> 19:32.540]  Tell that Marx.
[19:32.720 --> 19:32.740]  Yeah.
[19:34.800 --> 19:38.240]  So, you say that you're not a good person to talk to hackerspaces about.
[19:38.240 --> 19:38.540]  Oh, okay.
[19:38.700 --> 19:41.320]  No, about the, you know, U.S. story.
[19:41.460 --> 19:42.260]  By the way, what's your name?
[19:42.400 --> 19:42.500]  Please.
[19:42.620 --> 19:43.220]  My name is Jan.
[19:43.700 --> 19:46.120]  I've been involved with the CCC.
[19:46.720 --> 19:48.340]  I don't know what to tell about that.
[19:48.340 --> 19:48.740]  Oh, the micro CCC.
[19:48.740 --> 19:49.480]  Since about 10 years.
[19:50.020 --> 19:53.920]  And I've seen some hackerspaces grow and depart.
[19:54.480 --> 19:54.860]  Okay.
[19:55.040 --> 20:01.380]  So, and you don't say that you're not involved in hackerspaces anymore because you were kind of, like, frustrated by that?
[20:01.540 --> 20:03.660]  Or is it just, like...
[20:05.160 --> 20:15.460]  I think what I realized when you were opening earlier is that hackerspaces, they're not as technical as we want them to be or we think them to be.
[20:15.640 --> 20:20.200]  But they're more like a social meeting place where friendships form.
[20:20.520 --> 20:29.420]  And so, when there's not the basis for friendships, when you don't befriend a lot of people and you're not coming there for the people, then there's not much to come for at some point.
[20:29.420 --> 20:34.520]  Especially if you move a lot and it's a lot of effort to, you know, sustain the effort to support the hackerspace.
[20:34.880 --> 20:45.060]  And I've seen some hackerspaces which were founded in very geeky cities like Aachen in Germany where there's only technical universities which were terrible social places.
[20:45.380 --> 20:47.200]  Like, there was one girl or something like that.
[20:47.320 --> 20:50.760]  And she was fighting, obviously, as a founder.
[20:51.260 --> 20:54.540]  But there was, I don't know, never something like...
[20:54.540 --> 21:04.000]  I think the moment where I realized that something has to be really, really, really done about that is when I read about Noisebridge and their model be excellent to each other.
[21:04.100 --> 21:08.100]  And I was like, wow, that is kind of very obvious and very unsaid.
[21:08.220 --> 21:12.320]  So, maybe we should actually make that something we work very active on.
[21:12.440 --> 21:20.320]  Noisebridge is one of the few hackerspaces on the planet where, say, and I mean your 50-50 gender balance, wonderful.
[21:20.320 --> 21:22.900]  But Noisebridge is a really excellent space.
[21:23.160 --> 21:27.820]  I mean, they have lots of drama as part of the space and there's lots of bullshit going on.
[21:27.880 --> 21:29.940]  Possibly more drama than any other hackerspace.
[21:30.180 --> 21:32.760]  But that's exactly good for the hackerspace.
[21:33.020 --> 21:37.940]  Because there is an ongoing discussion about how we do stuff and how blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
[21:38.100 --> 21:40.440]  Like, talking to people is never bad, you know?
[21:40.940 --> 21:42.520]  Even if it's about bullshit.
[21:42.800 --> 21:42.880]  Yeah.
[21:43.480 --> 21:43.740]  Okay.
[21:43.940 --> 21:44.740]  What's your name?
[21:45.840 --> 21:48.240]  I'm Steffi, or also Linze.
[21:48.900 --> 21:52.260]  I'm right here in New York because of hacker school at Etsy.
[21:52.920 --> 22:03.700]  And, yeah, I was in several hackerspaces and I tend to visit hackerspaces in every city where I'm new or where I go.
[22:04.120 --> 22:12.980]  And, yeah, my experience is that sometimes I come to a hackerspace and nobody talks to me, which I find kind of strange, for example.
[22:14.960 --> 22:15.440]  So...
[22:15.440 --> 22:18.120]  You expect being harassed or...
[22:18.880 --> 22:19.640]  No, thanks.
[22:19.880 --> 22:24.120]  No, but sometimes it's really like people sitting at the table and they don't even say hello.
[22:24.340 --> 22:25.260]  I experienced that.
[22:25.400 --> 22:28.000]  And I sit there like for half an hour and maybe...
[22:28.000 --> 22:28.080]  Yeah.
[22:28.320 --> 22:34.560]  I mean, that's what I meant with hacking, like the hacker culture as being an elitist culture.
[22:34.700 --> 22:42.320]  Because I've seen so many cases of hackers sitting somewhere with one of the weird, our weird hacker t-shirts, yeah?
[22:42.500 --> 22:50.420]  And if you don't laugh at a t-shirt, they don't talk to you because you're too low for them to talk to, you know?
[22:51.760 --> 22:54.480]  And that's part of the whole thing.
[22:54.760 --> 22:57.680]  It's like I know something that you don't know, yeah?
[22:57.860 --> 22:58.780]  You know, like there's like...
[22:58.780 --> 23:01.380]  Here's my dick hanging out from my chest, you know?
[23:01.500 --> 23:01.600]  Yeah?
[23:03.020 --> 23:05.300]  It's an ironic dick, but it's still a dick.
[23:08.840 --> 23:09.220]  Yes.
[23:09.620 --> 23:10.260]  You have to...
[23:10.260 --> 23:10.960]  You have to know...
[23:10.960 --> 23:11.400]  Yes, that's right.
[23:11.460 --> 23:12.340]  You have to know my dick.
[23:12.520 --> 23:13.800]  That's how my dick look likes, yeah.
[23:14.920 --> 23:16.860]  And isn't that a little bit of the problem?
[23:17.140 --> 23:25.560]  That they expect you to accept them, and know them, and like them, and all their jokes, but don't put an effort into the whole thing?
[23:25.880 --> 23:28.140]  Of like trying to learn to know who you are?
[23:28.780 --> 23:29.380]  Yeah, maybe.
[23:29.900 --> 23:31.420]  That could be a way to put it.
[23:32.040 --> 23:32.800]  I don't know.
[23:35.680 --> 23:36.120]  Okay.
[23:36.500 --> 23:40.000]  So, how many hackerspaces have you visited so far?
[23:40.160 --> 23:40.640]  What do you think?
[23:40.640 --> 23:41.800]  Oh, here...
[23:43.000 --> 23:44.640]  Yeah, I went to several...
[23:45.160 --> 23:46.060]  Like, during my whole life.
[23:47.100 --> 23:52.120]  In Germany, I've been to Berlin and Cologne, which are the biggest ones, I think.
[23:52.440 --> 23:58.600]  And here, I went to NYC Resistor and made some laser cutting glass and stuff.
[24:00.360 --> 24:02.480]  And also, the Fool Lab in Montreal.
[24:02.780 --> 24:03.020]  I don't know.
[24:03.580 --> 24:06.000]  Every city I go to, I try to find the hackerspaces.
[24:06.240 --> 24:06.480]  Yeah.
[24:07.000 --> 24:13.100]  Yeah, it's quite interesting to see that hackerspaces in different cities, and different cultures, or in different parts of town.
[24:13.220 --> 24:22.180]  For example, in Austria, the first hackerspace, MetaLab, got funded by the Art Council, in the beginning, for the first two years or something.
[24:22.280 --> 24:27.700]  So they could afford a pretty huge space, which is around the corner of the city hall, right in the middle of town.
[24:27.960 --> 24:31.060]  The Fool Lab in Montreal, for example, that's kind of like...
[24:31.060 --> 24:32.600]  Like, you just don't want to go there.
[24:32.600 --> 24:32.860]  Yeah.
[24:33.140 --> 24:35.920]  Also, the first location, it was so far away.
[24:36.120 --> 24:36.220]  Yeah.
[24:36.240 --> 24:38.040]  And it was in such a sketchy environment.
[24:38.300 --> 24:38.660]  I didn't...
[24:38.660 --> 24:40.340]  It was super... and you couldn't even find it.
[24:40.580 --> 24:41.540]  Yeah, and the door is not...
[24:41.540 --> 24:41.940]  You go in...
[24:41.940 --> 24:44.100]  It was like in a horror, in a slasher movie.
[24:44.280 --> 24:47.160]  Like, oh, it's like hostile with hackers.
[24:47.580 --> 24:47.680]  Oh.
[24:50.340 --> 24:51.720]  But I mean, that's a cool thing.
[24:51.800 --> 24:53.020]  I'm not complaining about that.
[24:53.020 --> 25:00.460]  I mean, whatever funds you have, whatever possibilities there are, you have to use that to create a community and to do something.
[25:00.880 --> 25:03.020]  So it doesn't really matter where it is.
[25:03.260 --> 25:09.520]  Sometimes, I find it very interesting, is that you have hackerspaces in very rundown neighborhoods.
[25:11.020 --> 25:17.180]  Predominantly, and that's like the class structures of Western society.
[25:17.560 --> 25:21.760]  You have a hackerspace in an area where predominantly black people live.
[25:22.620 --> 25:25.140]  And the hackerspace doesn't have a single black member.
[25:26.740 --> 25:32.320]  Yeah, that's the kind of like, you know, like forced economics hackerspaces have to deal with.
[25:32.440 --> 25:40.540]  Like, we go somewhere, we're like the gentrifying nerds going to a space, but we're not trying to talk to the people who live next to us.
[25:40.660 --> 25:41.480]  Yeah, that's kind of bad.
[25:41.760 --> 25:45.860]  The same problem in Germany with Turkish neighborhoods and not a single Turkish member.
[25:46.180 --> 25:48.720]  Also, other hackerspaces that don't talk to each other.
[25:48.720 --> 25:55.730]  Because I come from a city, Bielefeld, where there's four different groups that form hackerspaces and they don't interact sometimes.
[25:56.520 --> 25:57.560]  Yeah, because they have different T-shirts.
[25:59.100 --> 26:03.200]  That is an excellent example I think we should talk about.
[26:04.180 --> 26:14.380]  Because it was one of the turning points for me also, because there was traditionally a CCC in Bielefeld, the city that doesn't exist in Germany.
[26:14.580 --> 26:17.360]  And it's one of the oldest cities with CCC.
[26:17.900 --> 26:21.500]  So, at some point, they split.
[26:22.100 --> 26:25.580]  There was art involved, there was nerds involved.
[26:25.820 --> 26:26.160]  It split.
[26:26.520 --> 26:32.220]  Now there's the Feubert, which probably a lot of people know, which is kind of an activist group.
[26:32.220 --> 26:35.620]  Yeah, it's a very, very socially engaged...
[26:35.620 --> 26:36.440]  Yeah, and they're doing...
[26:36.440 --> 26:37.180]  They're not actually hackers.
[26:37.340 --> 26:40.360]  They're more like civil rights, digital liberties.
[26:41.000 --> 26:41.120]  Yeah, exactly.
[26:41.400 --> 26:43.160]  Comparable to the EFF or something.
[26:43.400 --> 26:44.720]  They are actually hackers.
[26:44.940 --> 27:02.780]  I mean, back then in the war in Yugoslavia, in the civil war, they did set up a mailbox system called Zamyanet, which helped to communicate in that war, during that war, that the families in Serbia and in Croatia could communicate.
[27:03.300 --> 27:04.400]  I think the difference...
[27:04.400 --> 27:05.460]  I mean, they're really excellent people.
[27:05.660 --> 27:06.280]  Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[27:06.580 --> 27:09.180]  They're definitely technical, hackery people.
[27:09.280 --> 27:17.340]  I'm just saying they actually recognize that to make a change, they have to become political, and to stay political, and they're political.
[27:17.740 --> 27:20.440]  And that's something, another story.
[27:20.440 --> 27:20.660]  Yeah.
[27:20.660 --> 27:26.880]  So anyway, so the third hackerspace happened when some new people started to found the CCC again, because the old one had died out.
[27:27.080 --> 27:31.920]  And they tried to merge that with like an autonomous center, and...
[27:31.920 --> 27:34.580]  Are you familiar with the concept of an autonomous center?
[27:34.780 --> 27:36.440]  It's pretty much like a...
[27:37.640 --> 27:38.560]  Well, it's...
[27:38.560 --> 27:42.220]  A leftist political center, I would call it.
[27:42.420 --> 27:42.660]  Maybe...
[27:42.660 --> 27:45.620]  Like autonome antifa, autonomous antifascists.
[27:45.920 --> 27:46.700]  It's a very, very...
[27:46.700 --> 27:47.540]  It's a very...
[27:47.540 --> 27:48.160]  Central European thing.
[27:48.160 --> 27:52.120]  A left-wing thing where there's strict rules about what you cannot do.
[27:52.260 --> 27:53.900]  You cannot be sexist and stuff like that.
[27:54.040 --> 27:59.360]  There's absolutely no way to be sustained in the same way sexist.
[27:59.420 --> 28:00.320]  You will be excluded.
[28:00.660 --> 28:02.020]  So it's a safe place.
[28:04.060 --> 28:05.740]  And there's rules.
[28:05.920 --> 28:10.180]  These rules never really communicated with the nerds, and so things start to get ugly.
[28:10.300 --> 28:12.820]  And at some point, this all broke up.
[28:13.020 --> 28:13.100]  Yeah.
[28:13.360 --> 28:19.000]  And then now there's a fourth generation which tries to mend this, which is obviously not associated with any of the others.
[28:19.320 --> 28:21.800]  And so this tiny town has four hackerspaces.
[28:21.800 --> 28:38.580]  And for me, it's a perfect example of how communication can go wrong and why thinking about politics and rules in a group are very, very much important to make something sustainable and inclusionist.
[28:38.580 --> 28:39.000]  Yeah.
[28:39.500 --> 28:42.580]  We haven't said hello to number three.
[28:42.720 --> 28:43.240]  What's your name?
[28:43.600 --> 28:43.880]  Hi.
[28:44.040 --> 28:44.500]  I'm Hannes.
[28:44.720 --> 28:49.480]  So I've been involved in Berlin in the CCC since about 2000, I think.
[28:49.480 --> 28:54.080]  And then in 2010, I moved over to Copenhagen.
[28:54.240 --> 28:59.140]  And I'm studying there and also I'm a bit involved, but not too much.
[28:59.620 --> 29:00.500]  But, yeah.
[29:00.720 --> 29:07.480]  So I've been involved in the Berlin CCC and in the Congress preparations and so on.
[29:07.620 --> 29:14.680]  But I actually left the CCC about four or five years ago because I was pissed off with the structure and some other stuff.
[29:15.580 --> 29:20.800]  But I have a nice counterexample where hackerspaces actually work really, really great.
[29:20.860 --> 29:22.860]  And that's in Zagreb and Croatia.
[29:23.580 --> 29:31.560]  So, I mean, Yugoslavia has a lot of ethnic groups and nearly all of them are pretty nationalistic.
[29:31.760 --> 29:35.140]  Or there are a lot of nationalists in those ethnic groups.
[29:35.400 --> 29:37.660]  So in Zagreb, they actually had the problem.
[29:37.820 --> 29:43.400]  They wanted to fund the hackerspace and to do something and do interesting stuff.
[29:43.400 --> 29:46.560]  But they didn't want to deal with all those nationalists.
[29:47.100 --> 29:52.220]  I mean, they didn't want to really integrate them.
[29:52.480 --> 30:01.440]  I mean, they just wanted to be themselves and they wanted to be open to the other countries, to the other ethnic groups, to Serbia and so on.
[30:01.440 --> 30:07.900]  So what they actually did, so there's Club Mama, which exists since 15 years, I believe.
[30:08.540 --> 30:18.620]  And they found a place in the city center, which is next to a gay lesbian center and next to a Serbian culture center.
[30:18.620 --> 30:22.860]  So it's in the same backyard as the Serbian culture center.
[30:23.280 --> 30:26.820]  And it's directly in Zagreb and Croatia.
[30:27.320 --> 30:33.740]  So nearly all the nationalists don't really want to come there because it's next to a Serbian culture center.
[30:33.740 --> 30:42.740]  And also all the heteronormative people don't want to come there because they share the same rooms with the gay and lesbian cafe.
[30:44.280 --> 30:48.740]  And that's such a nice firewall they funded.
[30:49.940 --> 30:52.120]  That's really an amazing group.
[30:52.240 --> 30:53.380]  I really love them.
[30:53.380 --> 30:56.440]  I mean, they are really, really nice people.
[30:57.220 --> 31:01.480]  And what they also do, so they also hack the parliament and the city.
[31:01.580 --> 31:07.040]  So they get some funding in order to organize conferences around the countries.
[31:07.320 --> 31:11.420]  And they do that by integration of other ethnic groups.
[31:11.560 --> 31:18.840]  So they have a conference, or they have actually a conference which is done four or five times a year in different cities.
[31:18.840 --> 31:24.700]  So also in Serbia and Macedonia and in Croatia and so on.
[31:26.100 --> 31:29.160]  Don't overstimulate Americans with country names.
[31:30.140 --> 31:31.200]  I'm sorry.
[31:32.580 --> 31:40.860]  So back in the days it was all Yugoslavia, but that doesn't exist anymore and it's now lots of different parts.
[31:41.880 --> 31:45.880]  And so that conference is called Nothing Will Happen.
[31:45.880 --> 31:51.660]  And the name is due to the fact because the first time they went to Sarajevo, which is in Serbia.
[31:51.880 --> 31:58.060]  So the Croatians went to Serbia just after the war and they only wanted to hack.
[31:58.240 --> 32:03.560]  I mean, they didn't want to do something and they were a bit worried whether people would show up with guns.
[32:03.940 --> 32:06.700]  And so the Serbians want to kill them or so.
[32:06.700 --> 32:10.780]  So they decided, oh, we will just call it Nothing Will Happen.
[32:11.040 --> 32:13.940]  And hopefully, then nothing will happen.
[32:14.740 --> 32:15.000]  Okay.
[32:15.420 --> 32:28.020]  My question for you would be, there is, I had a, like, as a, like the fallout of publishing, hacking, hacking the spaces was that many, many people complained about it.
[32:28.020 --> 32:29.040]  And you can't say that.
[32:29.180 --> 32:29.600]  And blah, blah, blah.
[32:29.720 --> 32:30.380]  And it's all bullshit.
[32:30.680 --> 32:33.660]  And it was, it was blocked on Boing Boing.
[32:33.940 --> 32:40.140]  And a couple of people said, that's a disaster for the PR of hackerspaces that this paper, this pamphlet was published.
[32:40.960 --> 32:41.740]  And blah, blah, blah.
[32:41.780 --> 32:44.500]  Now they all think we all assholes and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
[32:46.420 --> 33:01.160]  And my question would be, because I always have this discussion with, especially people of hackerspaces in the U.S., that I tell them a hackerspace, the history and the presence of a hackerspace is, it's a political statement to a certain extent.
[33:02.400 --> 33:06.460]  Many members of American hackerspaces say, no, it's not a political room.
[33:06.500 --> 33:11.260]  It's just like, we just want to play with Arduinos and have fun, and it's not political at all.
[33:11.260 --> 33:14.980]  And I always tell them, come on, there is, everything is political.
[33:15.280 --> 33:27.760]  Come on, you go to the, you, the very moment you go to a supermarket and buy a Coke, that's a political act.
[33:28.420 --> 33:34.420]  How can like being in a hackerspace and using Arduino and talking about DIY not being political?
[33:34.640 --> 33:36.800]  I mean, that's completely absurd, at least for me it is.
[33:37.440 --> 33:42.700]  Do you think that there is a difference in that perspective between Europeans and Americans?
[33:43.840 --> 33:44.120]  U.S. Americans?
[33:45.210 --> 33:46.720]  Actually, for you and for you.
[33:46.880 --> 33:47.620]  For both of you.
[33:47.780 --> 33:48.480]  Maybe you start.
[33:48.640 --> 33:49.280]  For me and...
[33:49.280 --> 33:49.700]  Yeah, yeah.
[33:49.940 --> 33:50.780]  And Hannes, yeah.
[33:50.920 --> 33:51.200]  Okay.
[33:51.380 --> 33:56.240]  Well, I was just going to say that I think that that ties into what you were talking about earlier about popularity and things, right?
[33:56.320 --> 33:59.700]  Because there's all these sort of like taxonomy things flying around now, right?
[33:59.740 --> 34:06.360]  There's like hackerspaces and makerspaces and tech labs and all of these things, which the words get used interchangeably, but they're different things, right?
[34:06.360 --> 34:13.000]  And because something's popular, somebody sees a piece of it and then wants to be a part of that piece of it.
[34:13.120 --> 34:17.280]  Like if you look at, like let's jump out of this and look at music right now, like there's not a lot of...
[34:17.280 --> 34:21.240]  There's not kids like getting into punk rock right now worried that they're going to get beat up at school, right?
[34:21.320 --> 34:25.060]  Because it's like all over the place and it's like accepted and it's cool.
[34:25.440 --> 34:33.260]  They don't necessarily know that like 20 years ago, you know, showing up at school with the Mohawk, they're going to get their ass kicked like five times during the day, right?
[34:33.360 --> 34:34.160]  And it didn't even matter.
[34:34.340 --> 34:36.320]  And so the same thing with hackerspaces, right?
[34:36.380 --> 34:46.980]  There's people who go to some place now that they call a hackerspace, but maybe it's a makerspace or maybe it's a tech lab or something else because they just want access to a laser printer or laser cutter, right?
[34:47.000 --> 34:48.410]  They don't know anything about the community.
[34:48.410 --> 34:51.020]  They don't care about like DRM.
[34:51.080 --> 34:52.300]  They don't care about anything like that.
[34:52.300 --> 34:54.620]  They just need access to a laser cutter.
[34:55.100 --> 35:06.340]  And so like hackerspaces, you know, maybe it's being elitist, but I hold like something that's called a hackerspace to a much higher regard than anything else because I think the community is the most important piece of it.
[35:06.480 --> 35:13.800]  I think the community of a hackerspace exists and the tools like rotate around it to sort of like support it.
[35:13.930 --> 35:24.520]  Whereas something like a makerspace or something like that is more predominantly about the tools that people need access to and then there ends up being people that show up around it because of that.
[35:24.560 --> 35:32.240]  So if you value hackerspaces very high on your scale, yeah, then you can actually fall pretty deep, I think.
[35:32.380 --> 35:40.910]  So is there an example that you think of where you see like that really just like that really failed as a concept, a specific hackerspace or something?
[35:41.000 --> 35:42.380]  Well, I mean, you know, I'm not going to...
[35:42.380 --> 35:43.960]  No, okay, you're not going to.
[35:44.140 --> 35:44.460]  No, no.
[35:45.600 --> 35:46.200]  No, I don't know.
[35:46.280 --> 35:48.300]  I mean, there's definitely hackerspaces.
[35:48.450 --> 35:52.240]  I mean, like you were saying, there are hackerspaces where you can go to where nobody is going to talk to you.
[35:52.280 --> 35:54.240]  I've been to those myself, you know, traveling.
[35:54.380 --> 35:56.600]  I try to find hackerspaces and go hang out with them.
[35:56.700 --> 36:05.930]  And, you know, you can be like sitting at a hackerspace all day like working on stuff and there'll be an endless flow of people coming in and out who will never say hi to you like the entire time, right?
[36:06.060 --> 36:08.780]  And those people aren't there because of community, obviously.
[36:08.780 --> 36:10.380]  They're there for something else.
[36:10.560 --> 36:21.160]  And so like in Los Angeles with Crash Base, we had people who, you know, would contact us and say like, you know, is there a way to be like sort of a partial member just so I can come in and use these tools?
[36:21.280 --> 36:23.560]  And then like, I don't want to come to meetings necessarily.
[36:23.820 --> 36:28.430]  And we would just say like, go f*ck yourself because like that's not what we were about.
[36:28.520 --> 36:30.120]  Like, you know, we wanted to create a community.
[36:30.320 --> 36:35.060]  And if you just needed to rent like a drill press, there's like some other place that you could go do that.
[36:35.060 --> 36:39.460]  Like we wanted the people there to be there regardless of whatever else was around.
[36:40.140 --> 36:40.660]  Okay.
[36:41.060 --> 36:42.780]  Maybe a last statement from Hannes.
[36:42.880 --> 36:45.950]  And then we should exchange at least one time because it's already...
[36:45.950 --> 36:47.500]  Jesus Christ, the time is going far.
[36:48.760 --> 36:58.930]  So I'm actually not too sure about the American hackerspaces or the North American hackerspaces because I only have been in San Francisco to North Brits.
[36:59.540 --> 37:04.760]  And then I was last year and this year a bit in Pittsburgh and have been at Hack Pittsburgh.
[37:05.460 --> 37:10.300]  But also in Europe, I've been around in Copenhagen and in Germany at several spaces.
[37:10.820 --> 37:18.160]  And somehow in Germany, at least, it turns out that all those hackerspaces are pretty political.
[37:18.160 --> 37:34.280]  But on the other side, also in Berlin, there are split-offs of hackerspaces in order to find some makerspaces or some workshops, some tools, which are not interested in politics anymore or which don't want to deal with that.
[37:34.540 --> 37:40.360]  And don't want... I mean, it's still a small, concise community which are friends of each other.
[37:40.380 --> 37:46.260]  But they don't really want to do the whole political stuff but only share tools or mainly share tools.
[37:47.540 --> 37:48.100]  Okay.
[37:48.410 --> 37:53.840]  And I have the feeling that hackerspaces should be political and they must be political.
[37:54.040 --> 37:55.410]  I mean, it's a political statement.
[37:55.410 --> 37:56.520]  It's like hitchhiking.
[37:56.760 --> 38:05.600]  I mean, I go there, I share my experience and my brain with others and others can take it for free.
[38:05.740 --> 38:08.360]  I don't want to deal with money at hackerspaces.
[38:09.500 --> 38:11.720]  Thanks a lot to the Germans.
[38:15.400 --> 38:15.720]  So...
[38:19.790 --> 38:20.430]  Anyone interested?
[38:20.670 --> 38:21.830]  Like three people on stage?
[38:22.470 --> 38:22.790]  Like...
[38:24.390 --> 38:25.110]  Okay, there?
[38:25.390 --> 38:25.710]  There?
[38:25.850 --> 38:26.050]  Okay.
[38:26.670 --> 38:27.670]  Where are you pointing at?
[38:27.810 --> 38:28.330]  I don't know, there.
[38:28.770 --> 38:29.010]  Ah, yeah.
[38:29.110 --> 38:30.130]  Okay, good, good, good.
[38:30.210 --> 38:30.530]  Here?
[38:31.410 --> 38:32.050]  There's a pirate.
[38:32.330 --> 38:33.070]  The pirate, okay.
[38:33.130 --> 38:33.330]  Yeah, yeah.
[38:34.090 --> 38:34.370]  Okay.
[38:34.570 --> 38:36.170]  Okay, then we have...
[38:36.170 --> 38:36.950]  Okay, yeah.
[38:36.950 --> 38:37.130]  Here.
[38:37.430 --> 38:39.130]  Yeah, we'll grab you in a second.
[38:39.590 --> 38:40.050]  All right, there.
[38:40.250 --> 38:41.110]  Yeah, come on, come on.
[38:41.230 --> 38:42.450]  Four people on stage, whatever, it doesn't matter.
[38:42.450 --> 38:43.430]  You guys have to share a mic.
[38:43.630 --> 38:43.770]  It's good.
[38:43.810 --> 38:43.990]  Okay.
[38:44.130 --> 38:44.810]  You are sitting next to you.
[38:44.810 --> 38:45.570]  There's a certain pattern.
[38:45.730 --> 38:50.290]  We have, again, one female and more males, yeah.
[38:52.590 --> 38:53.310]  Okey-dokey.
[38:55.870 --> 38:56.590]  So, I...
[38:57.210 --> 38:59.210]  So, maybe a short intro.
[38:59.350 --> 38:59.810]  Who are you?
[38:59.870 --> 39:00.490]  Where are you from?
[39:00.710 --> 39:01.850]  And any Germans?
[39:02.110 --> 39:02.190]  No.
[39:02.750 --> 39:03.690]  Oh, good, good.
[39:04.150 --> 39:05.610]  You got one Irish guy, is that good?
[39:05.710 --> 39:06.930]  An Irish guy, excellent.
[39:07.730 --> 39:07.950]  Yay!
[39:07.970 --> 39:08.350]  Thank you.
[39:08.870 --> 39:10.250]  So, Irish guy, who are you?
[39:10.330 --> 39:11.030]  Thanks, Mom.
[39:11.750 --> 39:14.570]  My name's Fikro Odin, and I'm a librarian from Ontario.
[39:14.870 --> 39:19.010]  And for the last three or four years, I've been travelling around hackerspaces in Ontario and North America.
[39:19.170 --> 39:20.850]  I've visited every hackerspace in Ontario.
[39:21.330 --> 39:23.950]  And I'm trying to actually bring hackerspaces to public libraries.
[39:24.790 --> 39:27.130]  So, I speak at library conferences about hackerspaces.
[39:27.990 --> 39:28.070]  Yeah!
[39:29.410 --> 39:30.150]  Good, good.
[39:31.890 --> 39:35.230]  And I use your hacking the spaces quite a bit.
[39:35.330 --> 39:38.370]  I'm extremely critical, actually, in the exact same way you are.
[39:38.570 --> 39:42.010]  The fact that hackerspaces have become completely apolitical when they move to the U.S.
[39:43.030 --> 39:56.090]  I'm not sure if it's about the U.S. in general, but I think there's a certain conservative regress going on that you can feel it in hackerspaces too.
[39:56.230 --> 39:58.670]  I'm not sure it's only the hackerspaces fault.
[39:58.950 --> 39:59.110]  Yeah.
[39:59.690 --> 40:00.710]  Politics in general is getting more conservative.
[40:00.710 --> 40:03.130]  I've got an interest in talking about the history of hackerspaces.
[40:03.130 --> 40:07.150]  We've got an interesting historical example when we go through the thing that you might be interested in.
[40:07.370 --> 40:09.030]  And a question I'd like to ask about that.
[40:09.190 --> 40:09.770]  Okay, cool.
[40:10.090 --> 40:10.170]  Okay.
[40:11.030 --> 40:12.710]  So, hey, pirate.
[40:13.410 --> 40:13.590]  Pirate.
[40:13.590 --> 40:13.950]  Yeah.
[40:14.050 --> 40:18.190]  I'd like to say that I haven't read the Hacking the Spaces yet, but I intend to.
[40:18.710 --> 40:19.210]  It's boring.
[40:21.510 --> 40:26.110]  I'm Ben the Pirate, and my credit is that I'm the vice president of HacDC.
[40:26.810 --> 40:36.230]  So, and based on your description so far, I think, you know, I disagree with some of your, some of your statements that you've made, at least with regards to HacDC.
[40:36.490 --> 40:37.190]  I hope so.
[40:37.770 --> 40:53.210]  So, I, you know, I think, I think that there, for example, the ratio of other ethnic groups, the ratio of women, I think is reflective of the ratio of people in those industries in our, you know, in our area.
[40:53.430 --> 40:55.210]  There aren't many women programmers.
[40:55.490 --> 40:55.770]  What industries?
[40:57.710 --> 41:01.930]  Industries in technology and, you know, working in tech jobs.
[41:01.930 --> 41:12.750]  Like, there aren't as many women working in technology, working in fields that are, you know, that are related to the things that we do at HacDC, you know, as in proportion of men in the D.C. area.
[41:12.750 --> 41:14.690]  But who defines what is technology?
[41:14.990 --> 41:17.110]  Well, I'm not saying defines technology.
[41:17.110 --> 41:25.470]  What I'm saying, in terms of the things that get done at HacDC, the kinds of projects that we work on, in those kinds of industries, it's reflective of...
[41:25.470 --> 41:32.790]  So, you think that HacDC is more defined over the projects that are going on, and some of them are not as appealing for women?
[41:32.910 --> 41:33.910]  That's what, what do you say?
[41:35.410 --> 41:35.810]  Or...
[41:37.410 --> 41:40.170]  I don't think it's defined in terms of the project...
[41:40.170 --> 41:43.090]  Well, I guess, and yeah, in a way it is defined by the projects that are going on.
[41:43.210 --> 41:58.870]  That's, you know, we exist to facilitate learning, to facilitate, you know, collaboration, and to, you know, to do what, you know, to work on these kinds of things, to foster projects that, you know, that I can't see really taking off like in any other kind of venue.
[41:59.670 --> 42:03.770]  And, you know, some, we do have, we do have a number of female members.
[42:04.830 --> 42:08.090]  We've had, you know, but it's...
[42:08.090 --> 42:10.690]  And, you know, we have a lot of hardware hackers.
[42:10.870 --> 42:12.770]  We have a lot of people that are in electronics.
[42:13.030 --> 42:14.670]  We have a lot of people that are into software.
[42:14.890 --> 42:23.090]  We have a lot of people that are into fields that, in the D.C. area at least, there aren't a lot of women working in those fields, you know, relative to...
[42:23.090 --> 42:25.270]  But there are a couple of women in the D.C. area.
[42:25.430 --> 42:25.810]  Yeah, there are.
[42:25.910 --> 42:27.270]  No, I'm saying there are.
[42:27.270 --> 42:27.290]  We are.
[42:27.330 --> 42:30.710]  And we have many women at the space who are programmers.
[42:30.910 --> 42:32.830]  We have women at the space who are hardware hackers.
[42:33.010 --> 42:35.170]  We have women at the space who are into amateur radio.
[42:35.270 --> 42:38.090]  We have women at the space who are graphics designers.
[42:38.250 --> 42:39.410]  We have women at the space who are architects.
[42:40.250 --> 42:43.510]  So we do have women at the space.
[42:43.510 --> 42:45.610]  And we do have other ethnic groups at the space.
[42:45.730 --> 42:48.030]  You know, you can probably tell I'm a little darker than the rest of you.
[42:56.270 --> 42:57.950]  I'm not going to name names at all.
[42:58.190 --> 43:01.810]  I'll just say that I have been heavily involved in the hackerspace community for years.
[43:02.290 --> 43:03.550]  I've started a couple spaces.
[43:04.150 --> 43:07.590]  I left a space over frustration about these type of issues.
[43:08.050 --> 43:13.010]  I felt like I was trying to drag people into caring, and I was trying to drag people into being aware.
[43:13.230 --> 43:14.170]  And I eventually left.
[43:14.290 --> 43:18.010]  I felt that, in this case, forking the group was going to be better than trying to...
[43:19.210 --> 43:22.370]  bring awareness to a bunch of people who really just wanted to build the Arduino stuff.
[43:22.890 --> 43:24.570]  So for me, this is a bit of a personal topic.
[43:25.010 --> 43:27.430]  And like I said, I don't want to implicate people.
[43:27.530 --> 43:30.210]  I think people involved in this group are okay humans.
[43:30.530 --> 43:36.130]  I just don't think that they get the aspect of, we have a lot of power.
[43:36.250 --> 43:36.990]  We have a lot of knowledge.
[43:36.990 --> 43:39.590]  I think it's a very American thing to say, ah, they're humans.
[43:39.730 --> 43:40.450]  We have to tolerate them.
[43:40.570 --> 43:42.250]  Sometimes you can just say they're assholes.
[43:43.970 --> 43:46.370]  There are good people that maybe act like assholes sometimes.
[43:47.170 --> 43:48.230]  That's so tolerant.
[43:48.450 --> 43:48.870]  And vice versa.
[43:48.890 --> 43:50.270]  I'm probably an asshole sometimes too.
[43:50.390 --> 43:51.190]  I'll totally buy that.
[43:51.310 --> 43:51.610]  Yes.
[43:51.890 --> 43:52.690]  So that's all.
[43:52.970 --> 43:53.190]  Okay.
[43:53.990 --> 43:54.310]  Willa.
[43:54.590 --> 43:55.610]  My name is Georgia.
[43:55.850 --> 43:57.670]  I'm the director of the Hacktory in Philadelphia.
[43:57.950 --> 43:58.310]  Oh, cool.
[43:58.690 --> 44:02.290]  We actually have the majority of our volunteers are women.
[44:02.590 --> 44:03.050]  Excellent.
[44:09.470 --> 44:16.650]  What we heard from our friend who doesn't fit into the scheme of skin color here on stage.
[44:17.590 --> 44:19.330]  I'm sorry for breaking your pattern.
[44:19.610 --> 44:20.350]  Ah, the pattern.
[44:21.130 --> 44:22.110]  Are you Turkish?
[44:22.410 --> 44:22.490]  No.
[44:23.790 --> 44:24.890]  That's a German joke.
[44:26.910 --> 44:37.870]  So what you heard, what he was saying, like, do you think that there's a big difference between what's going on in Philadelphia and what's going on in Washington, D.C., like from his perspective and yours?
[44:37.870 --> 44:37.870]  No.
[44:37.890 --> 44:43.810]  It sounds like you're doing a better job than some other hackerspaces at the diversity thing.
[44:43.810 --> 44:52.290]  But I know for the Hacktory, it's a lot about the invitation we give to people, and that's made it a more welcoming space.
[44:52.490 --> 44:56.530]  And also, I think the projects that we work on do have something to do with it.
[44:56.650 --> 45:01.150]  Our project's a lot more focused on art in the community, and we've done a ton of outreach.
[45:01.150 --> 45:02.910]  We've done stuff with the library.
[45:02.910 --> 45:07.870]  We're going to be doing some classes in a new space in the Free Library of Philadelphia.
[45:07.870 --> 45:18.630]  We've also been doing a lot of kids' classes, actually, at a local art school, and we've had a huge demand from homeschool parents to help them out with teaching their kids.
[45:18.830 --> 45:24.250]  So I think the subject matter has drawn a lot more women to be interested.
[45:24.390 --> 45:26.690]  I would agree with that, but in D.C.
[45:26.850 --> 45:30.010]  in particular, I think there are other groups that fill those roles.
[45:30.530 --> 45:37.670]  For example, we collaborate a lot with a group called KCDC, Knowledge Commons D.C., and they are predominantly female.
[45:37.870 --> 45:42.670]  But they don't have a physical space, and a lot of times they host classes in our space.
[45:42.910 --> 45:45.090]  A lot of times we teach those classes.
[45:45.270 --> 45:47.810]  A lot of times they'll teach classes that we're interested in.
[45:47.910 --> 45:52.730]  And so we do work with other groups that maybe cater more to things that women in the area are interested in.
[45:53.030 --> 46:05.030]  But there are times when women far outnumber the men in the space, and sometimes it's because of KCDC classes that are going on, or some art group that happens to be holding an event at the space.
[46:06.570 --> 46:07.650]  I'd like to speak that for a second.
[46:07.770 --> 46:09.570]  I do think... I believe in forking.
[46:09.730 --> 46:13.570]  I really believe that there is that comfort level with people that are familiar with you.
[46:13.710 --> 46:17.970]  And I think it actually makes some sense when you talk about the city example earlier.
[46:18.190 --> 46:23.610]  You can get groups where both people want to do similar things, but they're not comfortable around each other.
[46:23.750 --> 46:27.590]  Maybe there's one or two members that just really upset each other so they splinter into different groups.
[46:27.710 --> 46:28.950]  And I actually kind of think that's good.
[46:29.090 --> 46:30.930]  I think that... I don't know.
[46:30.990 --> 46:43.550]  I think that there is a diversity in having three groups in town trying to do some of the similar stuff and being on friendly terms with each other and understanding, like, yeah, I don't work with them on all these projects because I don't agree with some of their views because either they're,
[46:43.550 --> 46:45.790]  you know, too centralist or too leftist.
[46:45.790 --> 46:51.930]  From a political standpoint, I would say that's the worst thing that can happen because it's, again, fractalizing the marginalized.
[46:52.350 --> 46:57.770]  And then there are, like, two small groups and not, like, a little bigger group that has some kind of impact.
[46:57.950 --> 47:00.570]  So Republicans and Democrats versus a multi-party system?
[47:00.570 --> 47:02.170]  Don't get me with Republicans and Democrats.
[47:02.410 --> 47:04.810]  Get a f*cking third-party, you assholes.
[47:04.810 --> 47:05.150]  Really?
[47:05.330 --> 47:14.550]  I mean, the political issue... The political issue is, I think, another thing that I want to address because HacDC is a registered 501c3 nonprofit.
[47:14.790 --> 47:21.910]  And that makes certain types of political activity difficult for us to maintain our nonprofit status.
[47:22.190 --> 47:26.190]  So we have to be careful about what kinds of political activity we engage in.
[47:26.230 --> 47:27.390]  We do engage in political activity.
[47:27.650 --> 47:34.750]  I mean, if I'm talking about political, I think I have to remind that political doesn't mean party politics.
[47:34.810 --> 47:42.830]  It means, I mean... Does that mean if you have, like, a Michel Foucault book in your library that you don't get money anymore?
[47:43.250 --> 47:46.770]  Or you lose your... I don't know.
[47:46.810 --> 47:57.930]  I mean, when we were trying to get our 501c3 status, one of the concerns that was raised was fostering certain types of political activity that we had on our website.
[47:58.390 --> 48:04.430]  For example, if you would have, like, I take an extreme example now.
[48:04.770 --> 48:11.550]  If you would have, like, a let's read Marx thing at your hackerspace, which actually happens in some hackerspaces.
[48:11.730 --> 48:12.050]  I like that.
[48:12.410 --> 48:13.030]  That would be totally acceptable.
[48:13.030 --> 48:14.010]  You would get a problem with that?
[48:14.170 --> 48:15.470]  No, that would be totally acceptable.
[48:15.670 --> 48:16.530]  Things like that do not happen.
[48:16.530 --> 48:17.490]  About politics.
[48:17.690 --> 48:18.810]  I mean, in general...
[48:18.810 --> 48:19.070]  Right.
[48:19.070 --> 48:27.950]  At our last member meeting, we voted overwhelmingly to sign the Internet Declaration of Freedom as an official group, as an organization.
[48:28.370 --> 48:28.950]  So, like...
[48:28.950 --> 48:29.890]  501c3,
[48:33.430 --> 48:34.190]  you can still have...
[48:34.190 --> 48:34.650]  Right.
[48:34.870 --> 48:38.310]  But also, we can't support a particular candidate.
[48:38.670 --> 48:44.490]  We can't host, like, events that might be in support of a particular candidate.
[48:44.490 --> 48:46.830]  And it's good because Marx is dead anyways.
[48:47.290 --> 48:47.410]  Right.
[48:48.630 --> 48:48.990]  Right.
[48:49.050 --> 48:50.910]  We can support policies.
[48:51.190 --> 48:53.610]  We can support positions as long as it doesn't...
[48:53.610 --> 48:59.450]  And once you get into that, once you even get into, like, spending money on support of certain policies, if it's...
[48:59.450 --> 49:04.030]  Especially if it's a partisan issue, which these days, everything is a partisan issue, you have to be really careful.
[49:04.330 --> 49:06.130]  You have to, you know, watch the amount of money.
[49:06.270 --> 49:07.930]  You have to do a lot of logging of that.
[49:07.930 --> 49:14.750]  So that if, you know, if some... the IRS wants to check up on that, you have all the documentation to show, this is not a major part of what we're doing.
[49:14.810 --> 49:15.150]  I wanted to say something.
[49:15.230 --> 49:15.410]  Can you?
[49:15.810 --> 49:16.750]  No, I was just gonna...
[49:16.750 --> 49:16.890]  Okay.
[49:17.150 --> 49:20.490]  I was just asking, because you said stuff that you had on your website you couldn't do anymore.
[49:20.670 --> 49:21.350]  Like, what's...
[49:21.350 --> 49:22.710]  No, no, it wasn't that we couldn't do anymore.
[49:22.850 --> 49:29.370]  It said it was...it raised a concern over whether we were, you know, primarily a, you know, political advocacy organization.
[49:29.370 --> 49:40.570]  Because we had hosted hackers from other areas who wanted to come for the Rally for Sanity protest...well, I guess, event.
[49:40.950 --> 49:42.070]  The Daily Show event.
[49:42.510 --> 49:48.670]  And that was actually something that we had promoted that on Hackaday.
[49:48.790 --> 49:59.350]  And they actually had to close the comment thread because we got a lot of heat in the threads for taking a political side and supporting, you know, the Daily Show's, you know, rally.
[49:59.350 --> 50:00.010]  For Sanity.
[50:00.430 --> 50:00.710]  So...
[50:00.710 --> 50:01.350]  Jesus Christ.
[50:01.890 --> 50:02.250]  Yeah.
[50:03.870 --> 50:05.330]  Clearly, Sanity is overrated.
[50:05.870 --> 50:06.310]  Apparently.
[50:06.570 --> 50:06.730]  Yeah.
[50:07.430 --> 50:07.710]  Okay.
[50:08.750 --> 50:16.830]  I have to apologize that I'm not this Rambam guy and I don't get three hours to have a discussion here.
[50:18.750 --> 50:21.130]  He's always saying the same thing for three hours.
[50:21.370 --> 50:22.130]  It's never ending.
[50:22.270 --> 50:22.910]  It's never ending.
[50:23.030 --> 50:23.550]  It's never ending.
[50:24.430 --> 50:24.910]  Yeah.
[50:26.350 --> 50:27.570]  So, I'm so sorry.
[50:27.570 --> 50:30.010]  We only have like two minutes left or something.
[50:30.510 --> 50:33.330]  But we have at least two questions.
[50:34.290 --> 50:35.050]  One here.
[50:35.210 --> 50:35.870]  You were the first.
[50:36.290 --> 50:37.570]  Mr. with the beard.
[50:38.750 --> 50:39.690]  And then we have you.
[50:39.830 --> 50:39.910]  Okay.
[50:40.110 --> 50:41.450]  Just your remark.
[50:41.730 --> 50:43.530]  I just wanted to touch more on kids.
[50:43.750 --> 50:44.650]  You mentioned it a little.
[50:44.790 --> 50:46.570]  I feel like it's a good, inclusive property.
[50:47.430 --> 50:53.070]  I was wondering what sort of programs and ways you work with kids to bring that back into the conversation.
[50:53.070 --> 50:53.770]  Cool.
[50:54.010 --> 50:54.210]  Thanks.
[50:54.650 --> 50:59.730]  We have been doing a kinetic sculpture class at a local art school called the Fleischer Art Memorial.
[51:00.290 --> 51:02.950]  There's a ton of photos of the class on our website.
[51:03.250 --> 51:04.970]  And it's been really well received.
[51:04.970 --> 51:08.430]  We've had a lot of demand from parents to do more of that.
[51:08.590 --> 51:10.990]  And we're actually going to turn it into an after school program.
[51:11.770 --> 51:17.110]  We've also gotten interest from the Franklin Institute, which is a big science museum in Philly.
[51:17.210 --> 51:22.630]  And they want to help us expand whatever we have going on to reach more kids.
[51:22.630 --> 51:26.430]  So education, there's always interest from parents.
[51:26.430 --> 51:29.950]  And we have a lot of parents who come to our regular events and bring their kids.
[51:30.190 --> 51:38.970]  And when I talk to them and ask them, like, how they found out about it, they're like, yeah, my kid goes to public school and science education sucks.
[51:38.990 --> 51:41.670]  So I'm trying to give them all the opportunities I can.
[51:43.390 --> 51:43.790]  Okay.
[51:44.710 --> 51:48.030]  We should try to get both these guys because he was trying to talk before.
[51:48.550 --> 51:49.110]  Oh, okay, okay.
[51:49.110 --> 51:50.090]  Just really quickly.
[51:50.170 --> 51:50.570]  Just, okay.
[51:50.690 --> 51:51.050]  Come on.
[51:51.450 --> 51:55.710]  Actually, the panel next door, I'm on the panel for DARPA funding hackerspaces thing.
[51:55.870 --> 52:01.070]  And I will be talking about the Make Magazine high school DARPA funding connection.
[52:01.490 --> 52:07.830]  It just seems like working with kids is a good way to kind of like solve some of these problems because it brings in so many people and then it's a future generation.
[52:08.010 --> 52:13.510]  Yeah, I think it's great that DARPA is now working with Make Magazine because the next inventor of Napalm could be a kid.
[52:14.150 --> 52:14.190]  Yeah.
[52:15.870 --> 52:16.190]  So.
[52:16.770 --> 52:18.190]  You guys each get one minute.
[52:18.350 --> 52:18.630]  So go.
[52:19.110 --> 52:22.970]  I find it interesting talking about hackerspaces only been in existence for the past six years.
[52:23.130 --> 52:26.010]  How about some of the original hacker and maker heritage for like amateur radio?
[52:26.290 --> 52:30.690]  A lot of clubs have been around for 40 years, 50 years, and they maintain vibrant.
[52:31.950 --> 52:36.450]  And those clubs don't even have like hackerspaces seem like to be rather asset heavy.
[52:36.570 --> 52:37.770]  You actually have a leased space.
[52:37.910 --> 52:39.570]  You have the technology and what have you there.
[52:39.770 --> 52:42.510]  So a lot of radio clubs I work with that don't have permanent space.
[52:42.970 --> 52:45.510]  And they actually do a lot of education and presentation.
[52:45.510 --> 52:47.670]  I agree with what you mentioned about forking.
[52:47.950 --> 52:49.930]  There's a lot of amateur radio clubs in closed communities.
[52:50.110 --> 53:02.070]  What happens over time is amateur radio has gotten so big as far as interest in shortwave, and scanners, and making things, breaking things, what have you, that if your club gets so big, you get special interest groups, and if they sponsor off and for it,
[53:02.110 --> 53:02.810]  that's a good thing.
[53:02.990 --> 53:06.730]  So I think you're overlooking a lot of where you can learn from past histories and mistakes.
[53:06.990 --> 53:13.230]  I'm not saying they've been successful, bad, but something that's been around for 30, 40 years in club form, probably can give asset to you.
[53:13.370 --> 53:15.290]  And I'm talking globally as far as the radio clubs.
[53:15.570 --> 53:16.050]  Thank you.
[53:16.410 --> 53:16.650]  Excellent.
[53:16.650 --> 53:16.690]  Thank you.
[53:17.690 --> 53:18.130]  Okay.
[53:18.690 --> 53:19.130]  And...
[53:19.130 --> 53:19.450]  Yeah.
[53:20.570 --> 53:29.250]  Yeah, so I'm as much a part of the squatter and Urkelpunk movement in the last 10 years that I have been of the hacker movement.
[53:29.430 --> 53:35.730]  And really what I've been doing is like trying to bridge that, you know, in both hackerspaces and in collective houses and squads.
[53:35.730 --> 53:48.650]  And I think that we've actually come further along as a collective house movement than we have as a hackerspace movement, as far as, as far as gender is concerned at least.
[53:49.570 --> 53:55.710]  And what we, one of the things that was really heavy was, was splintering and becoming multiple houses.
[53:55.870 --> 54:06.310]  You can go to any house, you can go to any city in the United States right now and there's going to be three to 50 collective houses that are sort of like roughly punk rock based squatters, hackers even.
[54:06.810 --> 54:06.950]  You know?
[54:07.150 --> 54:14.950]  And so if we wanted more answers, we might look towards, you know, what we've already done here in the United States that maybe you are as familiar with.
[54:15.110 --> 54:21.970]  But, you know, we've got a huge traveling anarcho-punk movement, which is really like, it's huge, you know.
[54:23.410 --> 54:24.070]  Thanks a lot.
[54:24.390 --> 54:25.450]  I think we have to stop.
[54:25.610 --> 54:25.750]  Yeah?
[54:25.890 --> 54:26.270]  It's over?
[54:26.670 --> 54:33.130]  The last line of this like three-year-old pamphlet, it's actually, it's a song.
[54:33.230 --> 54:34.030]  I want to sing it for you.
[54:35.990 --> 54:44.330]  Change the nerds, make them a better space for you and for me and the entire human race.
[54:44.630 --> 54:45.290]  Thank you.
[54:45.290 --> 54:45.810]  Thank you.
[54:45.810 --> 54:46.930]  Thank you.