[00:00.000 --> 00:03.120]  Steve Rombom is a Private Eye that I've known for several years.
[00:03.400 --> 00:08.200]  And I can honestly tell you, if you're being watched, there's a good chance he's the one doing it.
[00:08.280 --> 00:12.080]  This guy has his hands in a lot of interesting shit, let me put it that way.
[00:12.260 --> 00:14.620]  He was on 60 Minutes a couple of weeks ago, you may have seen him.
[00:14.720 --> 00:20.000]  He was hunting around in Canada for war criminals, Nazi war criminals, and he found quite a few of them.
[00:20.340 --> 00:25.920]  He's investigating groups like Hamas and all kinds of other interesting investigations.
[00:26.280 --> 00:29.260]  So without any further ado, I'd like to welcome Private Eye, Steve Rombom.
[00:35.080 --> 00:37.860]  Could you kill that slide projector so I don't go blind?
[00:40.280 --> 00:42.440]  That blue light right in my eyes.
[00:44.080 --> 00:44.960]  Thank you.
[00:46.260 --> 00:49.320]  I want to... I'll do that anyway.
[00:49.900 --> 01:01.800]  I want to apologize to all the people who thought they won the Spot the Fed contest as I was walking around and all the people who started hiding floppies and lowering their voices.
[01:02.500 --> 01:04.580]  If I would have known, I wouldn't have worn the suit.
[01:06.340 --> 01:19.840]  I know that the public image of public law enforcement and private law enforcement is that they'd rather be boiled in oil than take a guest speaker slot at a convention like this.
[01:21.120 --> 01:23.020]  It's just simply not true.
[01:23.020 --> 01:38.020]  And one of the things I'm going to be talking about today is how most investigators share a very important common goal with most hackers, as opposed to crackers and all the other variations thereof.
[01:38.380 --> 01:46.220]  And that goal is the free and open access to information, the democratization of information.
[01:47.720 --> 01:49.740]  Want to shut up back there?
[01:58.710 --> 02:01.990]  Politeness is not a job requirement in my job.
[02:04.690 --> 02:12.430]  Emmanuel spoke about a case that we completed about six months ago, which made it into the mass media.
[02:12.710 --> 02:17.310]  And that was a hunt for Nazi war criminals in Canada.
[02:18.230 --> 02:25.330]  With very little trouble, we found 161 war criminals in Canada.
[02:25.770 --> 02:28.010]  And I have to tell you, it was...
[02:29.510 --> 02:30.310]  Thank you.
[02:31.730 --> 02:44.470]  I have to tell you, it was not as a result of my great investigative ability, although there is that, it was because that things have changed in the past 10 years.
[02:45.330 --> 02:51.490]  Information is more open, information is more accessible, and it's more publicly accessible.
[02:53.850 --> 03:01.030]  A third of the people that we found, we found by picking up a copy of the Canada Pro Phone and plugging their names in.
[03:02.030 --> 03:03.630]  They were in the phone book.
[03:03.630 --> 03:15.030]  Another third we found, or even more than another third, by pulling driver license records, motor vehicle records, property registration, all of which is now online.
[03:16.370 --> 03:23.190]  Maybe 10% of the people we found, we had to mount a real honest-to-goodness investigation to find.
[03:25.870 --> 03:34.030]  That sort of accessibility to information on the part of the average private person, and I am a private investigator.
[03:34.250 --> 03:37.430]  I have no more rights to access information than you do.
[03:37.670 --> 03:39.050]  I can't go into NCI...
[03:39.410 --> 03:42.190]  Well, I can go into NCIC, but I'm not supposed to.
[03:43.310 --> 03:45.270]  I can't go into NCIC.
[03:45.610 --> 03:51.670]  I can't get toll records, although about five people have offered me toll records here today.
[03:54.830 --> 03:58.890]  All of the information that I can access, you can access.
[03:59.490 --> 04:03.150]  And this has enormously empowered the average person.
[04:04.790 --> 04:17.070]  Fifteen years ago, when the Jewish community, and the community of people who care in Canada, went to the government after the Duchesne Commission, and said, how many war criminals are there in Canada?
[04:17.090 --> 04:17.750]  Who are they?
[04:17.830 --> 04:18.390]  Where are they?
[04:18.610 --> 04:20.870]  The government said, we can't tell you.
[04:21.030 --> 04:22.470]  It's closed files, but don't worry.
[04:22.570 --> 04:23.810]  We've got everything under control.
[04:24.310 --> 04:29.410]  Now, as an aside, let me tell you, since 1979, the U.S.
[04:29.510 --> 04:32.490]  has deported or chased out over a hundred war criminals.
[04:32.910 --> 04:42.270]  Canada's deported one, which is why we joined with a number of public interest organizations, and mounted the investigation in Canada.
[04:43.870 --> 04:51.430]  Fifteen years ago, the citizens of Canada had to take the government's word for who was in Canada and what was available.
[04:53.810 --> 05:02.230]  Last year, they didn't, because we had the ability to go out and pull records and investigate people and knock on their doors and talk to them.
[05:07.350 --> 05:25.330]  The revolution in the power of computing and the power of database management and just simply what is now computer accessible, as opposed to what fifteen years ago was only on microfiche or only on index cards, has changed the world.
[05:25.670 --> 05:32.490]  And I'm not talking about that you can now take a picture of yourself mooning the camera and put it on the internet.
[05:32.950 --> 05:38.550]  I'm talking about driver license records, motor vehicle records, voter registration.
[05:39.650 --> 05:47.970]  Almost every newspaper is now accessible through dial-up services or through the net for free.
[05:47.970 --> 06:01.570]  And the ability to access at one shot the work of hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of investigative reporters is an unbelievably powerful tool.
[06:04.690 --> 06:14.150]  You can now protect yourself and increase the amount of justice in your life without having to rely on the government.
[06:14.710 --> 06:23.830]  You can find out if your nanny, your nanny that you're planning to hire, has a criminal record or is a drunk or is a drug user.
[06:24.730 --> 06:28.990]  You can investigate an employee before you hire them.
[06:29.750 --> 06:32.730]  You can find your missing father.
[06:33.630 --> 06:35.810]  You can hunt Nazi war criminals.
[06:36.590 --> 06:39.570]  You can increase the amount of justice in the world.
[06:39.750 --> 06:50.070]  And unfortunately, not in my opinion, but in the opinion of many governments and many large corporations, that's not a good thing.
[06:52.350 --> 06:57.330]  For hundreds if not thousands of years, there has been an information monopoly.
[06:57.690 --> 07:01.470]  And information really is power, as you guys know probably better than me.
[07:04.030 --> 07:06.650]  As an example, let's talk about Equifax.
[07:08.610 --> 07:11.630]  Equifax is one of the big three credit reporting companies.
[07:11.950 --> 07:20.090]  They have a file on every single American who has ever applied for credit, bought a house, or sneezed in a dark room.
[07:22.150 --> 07:28.030]  A few years ago, they were planning to sell it on a disk, something called Marketplace.
[07:28.030 --> 07:29.170]  There was a big uproar.
[07:29.510 --> 07:31.610]  They canceled their plans to do that.
[07:32.670 --> 07:40.530]  The following year, in a public relations campaign, they announced that they were cutting off private investigators from access to Equifax.
[07:41.650 --> 07:42.730]  What a scam.
[07:44.030 --> 08:08.450]  The fact of the matter is, Equifax, in addition to being the largest private credit reporting agency in the United States after TRW and before TransUnion, it is the largest private investigative agency in the United States employing more than 30,000 full-time and part-time investigators who do insurance investigations,
[08:08.670 --> 08:10.990]  background investigations, and pre-employment checks.
[08:11.290 --> 08:20.530]  And the truth is, what they were doing is, was saying, if you want access to our files and our investigative consumer reports, don't hire these independent private investigators.
[08:20.530 --> 08:21.650]  Give us your money.
[08:22.230 --> 08:23.770]  That's the truth of what happened.
[08:25.950 --> 08:29.450]  Equifax wants you to have to go to Equifax and pay big money.
[08:29.910 --> 08:45.390]  They don't want you to be able to spend $5 and access somebody's driving license record to see if they really are who they are, to see if their pre-employment application is legit, to see if you should hire them as a nanny.
[08:45.630 --> 08:51.830]  They want you to pay Equifax $150 for a pre-employment screening report, which is what they charge.
[08:58.740 --> 09:06.840]  Unfortunately, access to information and the ability to catalog things and cross-reference things has frightened a lot of people.
[09:08.300 --> 09:14.180]  And there is enormous potential for abuse when you start putting something into a computer.
[09:15.060 --> 09:24.440]  In a book that I read one time, a fellow wrote, the first law of computer databases is that the database will be used for something that wasn't intended.
[09:25.080 --> 09:26.660]  And that's absolutely true.
[09:29.120 --> 09:38.800]  I think, however, that there's been an extraordinarily unnecessary turn in the wrong direction towards access to databases.
[09:41.000 --> 09:47.760]  It is true, and I'm sure we'll discuss this during question and answers, which is going to start in about one minute.
[09:49.020 --> 09:55.340]  It is true that I can go online and reliably determine if you're a homosexual or a lesbian.
[09:56.260 --> 10:00.880]  It is true that I can go online and conclusively determine your religion.
[10:02.380 --> 10:22.300]  It is true that I can determine without breaking a sweat or getting, what's that called, carpal tunnel syndrome, I can determine how much money you make, what books you read, what your political affiliations are, who you talk to, where you go on vacation,
[10:22.540 --> 10:24.400]  the list goes on and on and on.
[10:24.720 --> 10:34.200]  Almost everything, in many cases, what you buy at the supermarket, what movies you rent at Blockbuster, it's all there online.
[10:34.500 --> 10:35.800]  And it's for sale.
[10:37.840 --> 10:49.680]  It's true that after the Clarence Thomas incident, you can't go into Blockbuster and find out if someone rents a Long Dong Silver movie.
[10:51.660 --> 10:57.520]  But you can buy the marketing list and the mailing list that Blockbuster sells.
[10:57.640 --> 10:59.660]  And they are one of the big sellers.
[10:59.980 --> 11:01.520]  I used to wear one of those.
[11:04.400 --> 11:06.720]  There's a guy sitting here with a nose and glasses.
[11:06.720 --> 11:09.380]  I once came to a 2600 meeting wearing one of those.
[11:11.540 --> 11:19.820]  It is true that all of the major gay magazines sell their mailing lists to anyone who cares to buy them.
[11:20.760 --> 11:42.620]  It is true that remarkable and frightening computer programs have been written who, which correlate information, and I'll give you a ridiculous example, I'm not sure it's a legitimate one, that people who own cats and Volkswagens like rated G movies.
[11:43.200 --> 11:52.420]  I mean, it is remarkable what, by feeding data about someone into a database system, you can extrapolate out to.
[11:54.580 --> 11:56.960]  There is huge potential for abuse.
[11:56.960 --> 11:57.640]  That's true.
[11:57.960 --> 12:12.460]  But it's my belief, and I suspect it's the belief of most of the people in this room, that there's far more positive effect to be gained by keeping every database open except for certain obvious ones than by closing every database.
[12:12.780 --> 12:16.800]  And I have to tell you bluntly, closing databases will not affect me.
[12:17.660 --> 12:24.740]  I will continue to get into any, just about any database I want, and I'm sure so will most of the people in this room.
[12:26.440 --> 12:45.160]  All that it will do is that it will harm the ability of the average person to control and affect their own lives and to get the information that they need, to check up on government and see if government's lying to them, to check up on big business and see if big business is lying to them,
[12:46.520 --> 12:50.280]  to check out the guy next door and find out if he's an ax murderer.
[12:51.940 --> 12:54.140]  Closing information is bad.
[12:54.500 --> 12:56.920]  Keeping information open is good.
[12:57.380 --> 12:58.860]  Questions and answers now.
[12:59.960 --> 13:00.660]  Anyone?
[13:00.940 --> 13:15.180]  By the way, I've been told to direct you all to a microphone next to the sound, the harassed sound man is pointing where the guy in the sunglasses is pointing.
[13:22.130 --> 13:26.830]  So what's the best way to hide your identity?
[13:32.650 --> 13:34.330]  First, let me get a good look at you.
[13:34.990 --> 13:35.430]  Okay.
[13:35.630 --> 13:36.350]  Now I'll tell you.
[13:37.910 --> 13:38.790]  You can't.
[13:42.210 --> 13:44.850]  Unless you want to establish a fraudulent identity.
[13:45.950 --> 13:47.890]  You must have a social security number.
[13:47.890 --> 13:49.250]  You must have a driver's license.
[13:49.410 --> 13:50.790]  You must register your vehicle.
[13:50.790 --> 13:55.830]  You must open a bank account which requires all of those documents and more.
[13:56.010 --> 14:00.570]  If you want a passport, in theory, you have to give your real name.
[14:00.710 --> 14:05.930]  You have to pay taxes or you're supposed to pay taxes and so on and so forth.
[14:07.130 --> 14:14.670]  For 99.99 out to 10 digits percent of the population, it is not a feasible solution.
[14:17.650 --> 14:27.070]  For the other point, 0.001 percent, I'll tell you how you do that in a second if you're so in need of doing it or so fanatically paranoid.
[14:29.030 --> 14:38.430]  I will tell you that there is an intermediate step if you feel that people know too much about you or will know too much about you.
[14:38.430 --> 14:47.710]  There is an intermediate step you can take short of changing your identity and becoming what's the name of the guy hunting for the one-armed man?
[14:48.090 --> 14:49.110]  The fugitive?
[14:49.430 --> 14:53.170]  Short of becoming the fugitive, there are things that you can intelligently do.
[14:53.870 --> 14:55.350]  Don't use credit cards.
[14:55.450 --> 14:56.190]  Pay cash.
[14:56.330 --> 14:59.150]  It's probably good for your bank account to do that also.
[15:00.530 --> 15:02.470]  Don't answer survey cards.
[15:02.610 --> 15:04.050]  They are a scam.
[15:05.130 --> 15:11.450]  Every time you get one of those little cards when you buy a product that says send this in to have your warranty, you have a warranty anyway.
[15:11.470 --> 15:12.190]  I promise you.
[15:12.710 --> 15:15.670]  What happens is that goes on a mailing list.
[15:15.830 --> 15:23.890]  They don't need to ask you how many children live in the house and what your annual income is to give you your warranty on your Seagate hard drive.
[15:24.310 --> 15:29.870]  But they do need that so they can put you in a database and market to you and sell that database to other people.
[15:30.990 --> 15:34.970]  Subscribe to magazines using a phony baloney name.
[15:35.630 --> 15:40.050]  I can find out so much about you by finding out what you read.
[15:40.330 --> 15:49.090]  If you subscribe to Soldier of Fortune Magazine, you're probably a different type of person than if you subscribe to Harper's Magazine.
[15:49.830 --> 15:55.830]  If you join the NRA, you are probably a different type of person than if you join Greenpeace.
[15:57.490 --> 15:59.450]  I happen to belong to both, by the way.
[15:59.890 --> 16:00.410]  Seriously.
[16:02.910 --> 16:06.350]  Because I want to be able to shoot the people who hunt the whales.
[16:14.790 --> 16:17.770]  There are two other throwaway lines that you'll hear today.
[16:21.150 --> 16:27.590]  Basically, don't give information that you don't absolutely have to by law.
[16:27.970 --> 16:30.410]  And the key is by law.
[16:30.630 --> 16:42.370]  If they ask you for your social security number, unless you're applying for credit or applying for a position with the secret service, which nobody in this room will get anyway, don't give your social security number.
[16:42.650 --> 16:48.470]  If they ask for your driver's license number on your check, that is against the law in most states.
[16:48.770 --> 16:49.770]  Don't give it.
[16:51.270 --> 16:55.070]  Do take advantage of all the opportunities to protect your privacy.
[16:55.190 --> 17:03.270]  And by the way, it's really interesting if you subscribe to each magazine with a different name because you can follow who they sell your name to.
[17:03.270 --> 17:04.390]  It's kind of cool.
[17:07.030 --> 17:13.890]  Now, for the people who want to spend huge amounts of money
[17:17.010 --> 17:25.050]  and really hide their identity and probably commit about seven or eight felonies in the process, there's a very easy way to do it.
[17:26.070 --> 17:27.550]  Find somebody who's dead.
[17:27.970 --> 17:29.790]  Apply for a social security number.
[17:29.950 --> 17:31.550]  They will give it to you without checking.
[17:31.550 --> 17:32.270]  It's amazing.
[17:34.150 --> 17:35.970]  Go and get a driver's license.
[17:36.330 --> 17:39.010]  Take that social security number and that driver's license.
[17:39.310 --> 17:40.290]  Get a passport.
[17:40.730 --> 17:45.970]  The easier way is find someone who died overseas so there's no death record.
[17:46.190 --> 17:48.270]  And by the way, Nexus is good for that.
[17:48.370 --> 17:52.690]  Check for deaths overseas or big accidents, things like that.
[17:53.970 --> 18:00.250]  Take their social security number, their date of birth, so on and so forth, write to the state.
[18:00.450 --> 18:05.610]  Say you lost your driver's license you need a duplicate or go in and take a duplicate.
[18:05.910 --> 18:12.710]  Make sure you do it in a state that doesn't take your thumbprint or at least didn't take their thumbprint because you will go to jail.
[18:13.770 --> 18:16.950]  Open a mail drop before you have the license mailed to you.
[18:17.010 --> 18:18.490]  Don't have it sent to your real home.
[18:19.910 --> 18:21.390]  Kind of obvious, I guess.
[18:22.670 --> 18:24.330]  Then go and apply for a passport.
[18:24.330 --> 18:25.570]  You will get one.
[18:27.850 --> 18:32.310]  It will take about five or six years if at all before you get caught.
[18:32.710 --> 18:42.270]  And in that time, you can probably go to the Dominican Republic or Argentina or Liberia is very good for this sort of thing.
[18:42.390 --> 18:44.010]  Zaire is very good for this sort of thing.
[18:44.470 --> 18:48.610]  You open a bank account and a certain amount of money and they will give you a passport.
[18:48.610 --> 18:53.970]  There's about 15 different countries that passports are for the asking.
[18:56.110 --> 18:59.790]  You have to really throw away an enormous amount of money.
[19:00.030 --> 19:05.170]  Put yourselves at the mercy of people with bones through their noses, basically.
[19:05.710 --> 19:09.570]  And it's really a lot of trouble.
[19:10.570 --> 19:11.970]  I've done it a few times.
[19:11.990 --> 19:18.630]  When we did the thing in Canada, I got a passport and driver's license and so on and so forth under the name of Sal Romano.
[19:19.490 --> 19:21.330]  And that's how I identified them.
[19:21.370 --> 19:26.390]  We established a university in Belize because Belize lets you do things like that.
[19:26.590 --> 19:28.110]  And we had school ID.
[19:28.530 --> 19:32.150]  And nobody gave me student discounts, though.
[19:32.270 --> 19:32.710]  I tried.
[19:33.390 --> 19:35.510]  You can do that sort of thing.
[19:35.830 --> 19:42.270]  It's probably an expression of untreatable paranoia if you do.
[19:42.630 --> 19:44.330]  Just don't give people your name.
[19:44.650 --> 19:45.590]  Next question.
[19:49.790 --> 19:52.610]  How can or how much does it cost to do this?
[19:52.930 --> 20:00.750]  Just because this information is available, how much does it cost for somebody like you or me to find somebody out or do any of the things?
[20:00.910 --> 20:04.130]  When you say do this, are you talking about the passport thing or investigating someone?
[20:04.150 --> 20:04.690]  Oh, no, no, no.
[20:04.810 --> 20:08.250]  I mean, just like, oh, you said find out my religion, let's say.
[20:08.950 --> 20:09.750]  Pretty cheap.
[20:13.740 --> 20:15.220]  To begin with, there are...
[20:15.760 --> 20:17.300]  Let's say I want to find out if you're Jewish.
[20:19.920 --> 20:20.820]  Which I am.
[20:20.920 --> 20:22.220]  Save your money if you want to find out.
[20:23.640 --> 20:26.780]  There's a company called AB Data out of New Jersey.
[20:26.960 --> 20:33.700]  A period, B period data that has just about every adult Jew in the United States on a database.
[20:35.500 --> 20:38.260]  There's a database called Committed Catholics.
[20:38.600 --> 20:39.780]  I didn't name it.
[20:41.180 --> 20:47.420]  Which has 25 million members of church groups or people who...
[20:47.420 --> 20:48.480]  I don't know.
[20:48.680 --> 20:50.100]  I don't know how they get the list.
[20:50.200 --> 20:53.740]  Send money to the Vatican or whatever that you can purchase.
[20:53.740 --> 20:58.640]  There are Baptists lists.
[20:59.120 --> 21:02.060]  There are certain things that you can use to extrapolate out.
[21:02.200 --> 21:07.080]  If you went to SPU, Southern Baptist University, chances are your name's not Goldberg.
[21:08.240 --> 21:10.400]  There are many, many ways.
[21:11.380 --> 21:16.760]  If you give money to B'nai B'rith, you're probably not Father O'Malley.
[21:17.800 --> 21:19.320]  And so on and so forth.
[21:19.700 --> 21:20.660]  A dollar amount.
[21:21.120 --> 21:22.320]  A dollar amount.
[21:23.200 --> 21:23.720]  Depends.
[21:24.080 --> 21:27.560]  You know, you're asking like how long is the length of string.
[21:27.860 --> 21:32.460]  It depends specifically what you want to find out and what you already know about the person.
[21:34.320 --> 21:36.900]  It can range from $100 to $1,000.
[21:37.900 --> 21:43.200]  But in no case is it going to be more than $1,000 unless you get suckered.
[21:44.000 --> 21:48.380]  And if you're intent on spending that kind of money, I'll give you my business card after the talk.
[21:49.460 --> 21:50.140]  Thank you.
[21:50.340 --> 21:51.240]  You're welcome.
[21:54.640 --> 21:55.680]  Someone's pointing.
[21:57.360 --> 21:58.140]  All right.
[21:58.140 --> 21:59.720]  I'll repeat your question.
[22:01.140 --> 22:02.780]  I can barely hear it.
[22:41.560 --> 22:45.300]  So the question was that we drifted off the topic.
[22:46.400 --> 22:56.500]  What do I think about Bill Gates and the development of search engines and closed communities online as opposed to open communities?
[22:57.820 --> 23:00.960]  First of all, I'm a Mac guy, so I hate Bill Gates.
[23:04.420 --> 23:05.540]  Show of hands.
[23:08.080 --> 23:14.240]  As far as search engines and things like that, I have a two-part answer.
[23:14.360 --> 23:16.320]  Number one, I think search engines are wonderful.
[23:16.520 --> 23:18.140]  They make your life easier.
[23:18.240 --> 23:19.380]  They make my life easier.
[23:19.380 --> 23:20.780]  Not just for investigating.
[23:21.060 --> 23:26.120]  I mean, if I want to find out about Tonga, I want to just be able to type in Tonga.
[23:30.160 --> 23:31.440]  That's the short answer.
[23:31.600 --> 23:43.960]  The slightly longer answer is if you don't want someone to find out about you, or to find out about your opinions, or to find out about your likes and dislikes, don't post to Usenet.
[23:44.360 --> 23:46.860]  I mean, keep your opinions to yourself.
[23:47.840 --> 23:53.120]  As far as closed communities versus open communities, also an obvious answer.
[23:53.300 --> 23:56.080]  There are some communities that should be closed.
[23:56.320 --> 24:01.700]  If you have an AIDS discussion group, I think it should probably be...
[24:01.700 --> 24:02.660]  If you are going to...
[24:02.660 --> 24:10.460]  If it's a group of people who are suffering from AIDS, I think it should be on a password-protected server, even on a dial-up as opposed to on the net.
[24:10.460 --> 24:21.800]  If you're talking about the mating habits of Piranha and the Gitche-Gumi River, I really don't think it matters if it's an open Usenet group.
[24:22.960 --> 24:26.160]  I do know what you were getting at.
[24:26.300 --> 24:37.760]  The whole issue of people buying up more and more and more of bandwidth and services and data collection.
[24:37.760 --> 24:44.560]  For example, Bill Gates buying the company that manufactures Quicken scared the hell out of it.
[24:44.720 --> 24:47.080]  Because Quicken facilitates online banking.
[24:47.280 --> 24:53.780]  And the last thing I want is Bill Gates to be able to have access to my banking transactions, encrypted or otherwise.
[24:55.160 --> 24:58.360]  Or Bill Gates' little elves in Redmond.
[24:59.720 --> 25:03.460]  But again, it's sort of the same answer that I gave this fellow here.
[25:03.880 --> 25:11.240]  If you don't want people to know things about you and don't want to be able to access it online, by God, don't put it online.
[25:11.780 --> 25:13.020]  It won't be there.
[25:14.000 --> 25:22.040]  You know, Teddy Roosevelt had a saying, nobody ever heard what wasn't said.
[25:22.700 --> 25:23.960]  It goes online.
[25:24.600 --> 25:26.240]  The same thing goes online.
[25:26.560 --> 25:27.480]  Next question?
[25:29.040 --> 25:32.700]  Colleges like to have your social security number and so on and so forth.
[25:32.800 --> 25:33.020]  Right.
[25:33.360 --> 25:40.480]  You're not required to give it to them, but is it legal to give them a fake social security number at least if you don't go there?
[25:40.480 --> 25:47.160]  Real simple answer, if you're applying for student aid, you've got to give them your social security number because they've got to check you're deserving.
[25:48.580 --> 25:59.180]  If you're not applying for student aid, you can request that they assign you a student identity number in lieu of your social security number.
[25:59.380 --> 26:02.440]  That is the law of the land pretty much.
[26:03.220 --> 26:14.780]  Even if you are applying for student aid, many, many colleges allow you to apply for student aid But have a different student ID number, which you'll be making my job harder, but it's probably a good idea.
[26:15.260 --> 26:17.300]  And anyway, I'll find out your social security number anyway.
[26:18.640 --> 26:27.100]  What if, when you're requesting, like, junk mail from colleges and so on, they just like to have your social security number for their accounting purposes?
[26:27.960 --> 26:28.880]  Say that again?
[26:29.580 --> 26:35.580]  They like to put in their databases your social security number when they want to send you junk mail.
[26:35.580 --> 26:36.120]  Uh-huh.
[26:36.820 --> 26:38.680]  Put all zeros.
[26:39.180 --> 26:46.420]  Believe me, some harassed $5 an hour clerk will not send your request back to you asking for your social security number.
[26:51.660 --> 26:52.340]  Sir?
[26:53.080 --> 26:58.280]  I just had an important caveat about paying cash for everything.
[26:58.380 --> 27:03.520]  I paid cash for my airline ticket to get here, and my bag was searched.
[27:03.760 --> 27:10.840]  Not only was my bag searched and my pockets, but the security agent tasted the frosting in my cupcake.
[27:11.160 --> 27:11.780]  No lie.
[27:13.340 --> 27:14.980]  Tasted the frosting, so...
[27:14.980 --> 27:15.920]  Well, that's...
[27:15.920 --> 27:17.420]  How about a debit card?
[27:17.700 --> 27:19.120]  What do you think about debit cards?
[27:19.860 --> 27:20.840]  What do I think about...
[27:20.840 --> 27:21.340]  What was the...
[27:21.340 --> 27:22.320]  Debit cards?
[27:23.640 --> 27:30.660]  Debit cards, in terms of invasion of privacy, are absolutely meaningless in comparison to credit cards.
[27:30.660 --> 27:32.960]  They put the same information in the same place.
[27:34.260 --> 27:34.780]  Um...
[27:34.780 --> 27:42.580]  And by the way, you got searched, because one of the key components to airline terrorism profiling is paid cash.
[27:43.260 --> 27:44.580]  No, it really is.
[27:44.780 --> 27:49.880]  Paid cash, mail, traveling alone with one other...
[27:49.880 --> 27:53.220]  Or with one other person between the age of 25 and 45.
[27:53.560 --> 27:55.320]  Those are the publicly known ones.
[27:55.320 --> 27:58.500]  I won't give you the rest, in case you're from Hamas.
[28:00.340 --> 28:00.840]  Um...
[28:00.840 --> 28:10.560]  I will tell you that as far as airlines go, they will not give up your name if you pay by credit card, because they don't want the other airlines to recruit you.
[28:10.780 --> 28:16.400]  The only time the airlines start releasing your information is if you join a frequent flyer program.
[28:16.660 --> 28:22.160]  They sell all their frequent flyer lists to travel magazines and tour companies and what have you.
[28:22.160 --> 28:27.240]  So, if you fly continental but don't join one pass, you're pretty safe.
[28:27.820 --> 28:32.980]  But wouldn't a debit card not fall under, uh, you know, TRW's jurisdiction?
[28:33.560 --> 28:35.100]  Not at all.
[28:36.240 --> 28:38.780]  Everything falls under TRW's jurisdiction.
[28:39.160 --> 28:39.940]  All right, thanks.
[28:40.080 --> 28:40.500]  I...
[28:40.500 --> 28:41.080]  I...
[28:41.080 --> 28:53.300]  Well, let me tell you that when you opened your bank account to which the debit card is attached, TRW TransUnion and CBI Equifax got your name.
[28:53.520 --> 28:54.880]  Don't worry about the card.
[28:55.100 --> 28:57.500]  They get you at the first step.
[28:57.780 --> 29:05.500]  In fact, you want to talk to the fellow about colleges, they buy the list of students from every college.
[29:05.500 --> 29:10.060]  Because people who are graduating from college are better credit risks, in theory.
[29:10.320 --> 29:11.120]  I wasn't.
[29:11.260 --> 29:14.400]  But better credit risks than people who don't graduate from college.
[29:15.700 --> 29:24.040]  Every situation where you give your name and private information to someone, tell them you don't want to be on mailing lists.
[29:24.260 --> 29:26.080]  It's called opting out.
[29:26.960 --> 29:27.980]  Opt out.
[29:28.920 --> 29:29.600]  Next.
[29:31.760 --> 29:37.680]  What if I didn't mind getting junk mail and I didn't want to really hide?
[29:37.940 --> 29:45.420]  By using cash all the time and not putting my social security number on things, it makes things much more inconvenient.
[29:45.420 --> 29:50.620]  Like, I know that you can't pay cash at a hotel, for instance, or rent a car.
[29:50.820 --> 29:52.500]  You need a credit card for these things.
[29:53.340 --> 29:57.640]  If I don't have anything really to hide, why should I be afraid?
[29:57.940 --> 29:58.740]  You shouldn't.
[29:59.520 --> 30:00.900]  No, he's right.
[30:01.200 --> 30:02.700]  He's absolutely right.
[30:02.700 --> 30:03.680]  And that's the point.
[30:04.040 --> 30:08.080]  That's the point that I was hopefully making earlier.
[30:08.300 --> 30:16.080]  There is no sin, no harm, being in a property ownership database or in a voter registration database.
[30:16.160 --> 30:27.480]  If you're not ashamed that you vote for the gravity party, there's no reason not to be in voter registration.
[30:27.480 --> 30:40.280]  The fact of the matter is the damage it does to you is far less by leaving the records open than the damage to the community at large by keeping them closed.
[30:40.560 --> 30:42.480]  The gentleman's absolutely right.
[30:42.680 --> 30:48.960]  There is no real reason to hide most of who you are and what you do.
[30:48.960 --> 30:53.040]  Most of you, I assume, are pretty proud of who you are and what you do.
[30:54.680 --> 30:56.680]  And there's no reason to hide it.
[30:57.940 --> 31:02.320]  As far as if you want to get letters, if you want to get junk mail, what do you do?
[31:02.320 --> 31:03.280]  Do nothing.
[31:03.280 --> 31:04.040]  They'll find you.
[31:05.060 --> 31:05.840]  Ma'am.
[31:06.460 --> 31:20.280]  I have a question about the practice of using the social security number as a universal identifier, such as health insurance companies are increasingly using the social security number as the individual's ID number for their purposes.
[31:20.720 --> 31:21.000]  Right.
[31:21.640 --> 31:23.720]  There's actually a very good reason for that.
[31:23.940 --> 31:31.040]  A huge part of my business is investigating health care fraud, disability fraud, fraudulent death claims.
[31:31.040 --> 31:34.580]  You would be amazed how many people kill themselves.
[31:35.700 --> 31:41.860]  They go out and they get an alternate identity, which I've got to tell you is terrifically easy to do, especially if you're from Yemen.
[31:42.720 --> 31:50.680]  We did about 20 cases in a row of people who came from Yemen, applied for asylum, got a social security number.
[31:51.380 --> 31:58.880]  Before they rented an apartment, they took out life insurance, went back to Yemen, died in a camel accident.
[32:00.780 --> 32:03.700]  And their beneficiary put in a claim.
[32:03.920 --> 32:10.000]  It just so happened in most of those cases, the beneficiary was really them and they applied under a phony name.
[32:10.980 --> 32:12.100]  So when it comes to...
[32:13.620 --> 32:14.820]  You are...
[32:14.820 --> 32:16.340]  Give me a break.
[32:17.080 --> 32:18.180]  Thank you.
[32:18.480 --> 32:22.820]  If you don't like the talk or you're bored, go in the other room.
[32:27.920 --> 32:34.440]  There are actually very good, very valid, non-privacy invading reasons.
[32:34.440 --> 32:48.260]  But if you are, again, concerned, HIPP, for example, the health insurance program of Greater New York, will allow you to have a different medical ID number and they'll just keep your social security number in their files.
[32:49.140 --> 32:49.380]  Next.
[32:50.040 --> 32:59.520]  A follow-up to that question, I have found out myself that you don't have to give your social security number to a credit card company.
[33:00.360 --> 33:01.900]  You will get less credit.
[33:02.140 --> 33:03.500]  You won't get a 5,000.
[33:03.600 --> 33:05.160]  You might get a 2,000 to start with.
[33:06.500 --> 33:10.140]  But I've done that with a Master Charge company.
[33:10.680 --> 33:14.240]  But I was wondering, aren't there...
[33:14.240 --> 33:20.260]  Isn't it an exposure, really, to let your social security number go around freely?
[33:20.560 --> 33:24.540]  Isn't that the key way that fraudulent...
[33:24.540 --> 33:28.360]  You know, you can be taken advantage of fraudulently.
[33:28.480 --> 33:30.060]  It's not a key way.
[33:30.220 --> 33:31.420]  It's certainly a big help.
[33:32.400 --> 33:34.180]  It's not the key way.
[33:34.780 --> 33:41.040]  If you got credit cards without giving your social security number, maybe you're just a terrifically trustworthy-looking guy.
[33:41.160 --> 33:42.140]  It usually doesn't work.
[33:44.480 --> 34:01.900]  By the way, just as an aside, there are now about 30 or 40 banks, primarily in the Caribbean, the largest one of which is called Swiss American Bank, which will give you a credit card, not a debit card, but which functions the same way as a credit card.
[34:01.900 --> 34:10.840]  You put, for example, $10,000 on deposit, and they will give you a $7,500 line of credit on a MasterCard or a Visa.
[34:11.860 --> 34:14.160]  It, for the most part, hides your transactions.
[34:14.580 --> 34:16.720]  They don't care about your social security number.
[34:16.840 --> 34:18.980]  In fact, they don't even care about your real name.
[34:20.480 --> 34:25.960]  Another thing that you can do is, when you apply for a credit card, apply for it in multiple names.
[34:26.220 --> 34:30.300]  When they send you that little thing saying, would you like to put anyone else on your account?
[34:30.520 --> 34:36.640]  Say, yes, I'd like to put Mr. Richard Nixon on my card.
[34:37.140 --> 34:44.560]  And they will send a card to your house with the name Richard Nixon on it, and go out and buy dinner and rent cars in the name of Richard Nixon.
[34:44.560 --> 34:47.680]  And it makes you much, much harder to track.
[34:47.860 --> 34:56.520]  But, again, as a rule, credit card companies have a really good reason to want your social security number.
[34:56.580 --> 35:04.320]  They want to know if you tennis shoot about 500 bills across the U.S., and now you're looking for a further line of credit so you can scam them.
[35:06.580 --> 35:10.400]  I'm in the middle of a case where a guy came to this country.
[35:10.400 --> 35:12.060]  His real name was Shmuel.
[35:12.260 --> 35:13.580]  I won't give you his last name.
[35:13.580 --> 35:15.320]  He came to this country.
[35:15.800 --> 35:18.960]  He went and he applied for a credit card in the name of Tony.
[35:19.360 --> 35:21.120]  I won't give you his last name.
[35:21.580 --> 35:28.200]  And he is now living in France after having scammed American Express out of about $30,000.
[35:29.760 --> 35:31.500]  Some of you may think that's pretty good.
[35:32.380 --> 35:38.880]  American Express doesn't, and they probably should have checked his background and his credit a little more closely.
[35:40.180 --> 35:47.360]  But there weren't enough bells and whistles, and their computerized credit approval program to catch the guy.
[35:47.460 --> 35:48.080]  He was very good.
[35:48.180 --> 35:50.300]  And he is a professional at this sort of thing.
[35:51.740 --> 35:58.360]  I'm after him because he also decided he was disabled, even though he owns about seven homes and three businesses.
[35:58.360 --> 36:00.680]  And he's claiming on disability insurance.
[36:01.800 --> 36:02.680]  Next question.
[36:03.280 --> 36:08.400]  I was wondering what you knew about the new records they're keeping in immigration coming in and out of the country.
[36:08.860 --> 36:15.900]  And more specifically, I had a friend who went back to England, and the visa waiver, she had to fill out a card and hand it to the airline.
[36:15.900 --> 36:18.060]  Does the airline hand that back to the government?
[36:19.560 --> 36:21.380]  They don't hand it to the government.
[36:21.380 --> 36:23.420]  It goes immediately to the government.
[36:25.300 --> 36:26.340]  There are...
[36:26.340 --> 36:28.240]  Man, that's a whole nother talk.
[36:28.560 --> 36:31.880]  There are government databases that you would not believe.
[36:32.280 --> 36:34.680]  I mean, most people are upset by Social Security.
[36:34.680 --> 36:36.380]  They're upset by NCIC.
[36:37.420 --> 36:52.380]  There's a database maintained by a very secret outfit called FinCEN Financial Center in Virginia, which has all your bank transactions, all your taxes, stuff I can't even begin to go into.
[36:53.400 --> 36:58.020]  The database used by Customs, they used to use something called TECS, T-E-C-S.
[36:58.280 --> 37:01.320]  It was replaced by T-E-C-S-2, T-E-C-S-2.
[37:01.320 --> 37:07.440]  Now they have something called NLETS, called National, I think it's National Law Enforcement Tracking System.
[37:08.940 --> 37:15.700]  Every law enforcement, every federal agency is on it, FBI, Secret Service, Customs, Immigration, everything.
[37:16.300 --> 37:28.920]  You will notice that at major ports of entry and at almost all overseas ticket counters, the airlines now have the reader for your passport.
[37:28.920 --> 37:33.920]  They scan your passport code in, your barcode in.
[37:34.100 --> 37:36.120]  It goes into the computer program.
[37:36.220 --> 37:38.480]  It is sent directly to the U.S.
[37:38.880 --> 37:52.220]  When you arrive in the U.S., that list of passengers has already been screened against the Customs Stop List, against the NCIC Warrant List, and against a zillion other lists.
[37:53.220 --> 38:00.260]  If you were even questioned by a federal agency, it is put in that computer.
[38:00.680 --> 38:03.020]  Now, again, this is a double-edged sword.
[38:03.360 --> 38:22.080]  If I lived in Milwaukee and I was questioned about chopping up an old woman that was found buried in my front yard, and I am now living in Miami, and someone is questioning me about chopping up an old woman who was found buried in my front yard, it is something that the government should know.
[38:22.300 --> 38:29.520]  So, filing little minutia on people is not always an unnecessary invasion of privacy.
[38:29.520 --> 38:36.060]  So, you would be astounded how many really, really bad guys that you and I do want off the street are caught that way.
[38:36.440 --> 38:39.080]  However, again, there is a potential for an abuse.
[38:39.580 --> 39:08.380]  If you lived next door to Pablo, the big cocaine smuggler, and you were questioned by the DEA, and the guy wasn't too lazy to type up his case notes and feed them into NLETS, which he is supposed to do, if you are on a flight coming back from Colombia for no other reason after that than you really wanted to see Bogota once before you died,
[39:09.520 --> 39:11.640]  you will have dogs sniffing your pockets.
[39:15.200 --> 39:19.680]  Yes, you are immediately fed into the system.
[39:20.300 --> 39:31.860]  And how come my friend who left on Virgin out of JFK, she handed a card to the Virgin ticket woman, the green card that you rip out of your passport when you leave the country?
[39:32.920 --> 39:34.100]  Oh, she is not a U.S. citizen?
[39:34.640 --> 39:35.620]  No, she is not a U.S. citizen.
[39:38.180 --> 39:41.980]  Well, because Virgin, it is a government cost-cutting measure.
[39:43.060 --> 39:46.460]  All of the airlines are obligated to do the following.
[39:47.840 --> 39:51.560]  Security screening, reporting anyone who meets the profile.
[39:51.560 --> 39:52.980]  There are a few things I won't tell you.
[39:53.220 --> 39:56.240]  They are responsible for taking all of your passport information.
[39:56.420 --> 40:01.200]  That's why they stamp your ticket that says DOCSOK, D-O-C-S-O-K, means documents okay.
[40:01.200 --> 40:02.040]  They have been checked.
[40:02.740 --> 40:07.180]  And they are also responsible for collecting all of the government-required forms.
[40:08.620 --> 40:16.000]  Otherwise, they would have to hire a whole bunch of other guys to just stand there like an idiot and do nothing but say, form, form.
[40:16.420 --> 40:17.880]  A lot of countries that do that.
[40:18.000 --> 40:21.780]  They need to employ, you know, 17 people from each village.
[40:22.280 --> 40:25.100]  In theory, in the United States, we are computerized.
[40:25.240 --> 40:26.020]  We are a modern nation.
[40:26.020 --> 40:30.220]  We are supposed to be manpower intelligent.
[40:30.540 --> 40:31.660]  That's why they do it.
[40:32.360 --> 40:37.000]  I think your real question was, does the airline have access to this information?
[40:37.180 --> 40:38.960]  And does it go in their databases?
[40:39.300 --> 40:40.340]  Yes, it does.
[40:42.100 --> 40:43.060]  Next question.
[40:43.560 --> 40:52.160]  Well, one thing I wanted to say was, in New York State, you can't apply for a dead guy's license because they keep your picture now on file.
[40:52.640 --> 40:55.040]  You don't have to go back and have your picture taken anymore.
[40:55.200 --> 40:56.700]  They can just send it right to you.
[40:56.960 --> 40:59.280]  And what if you are from Iowa?
[41:00.520 --> 41:04.300]  You get a dead guy's birth certificate in Iowa.
[41:04.620 --> 41:05.060]  Okay.
[41:05.060 --> 41:06.680]  You move to the United States.
[41:06.780 --> 41:09.580]  And by the way, if you run this scam, try not to talk with a Brooklyn accent.
[41:09.820 --> 41:11.100]  I couldn't pull this off.
[41:11.900 --> 41:16.160]  And you go to the DMV after you've gotten dead guy from Iowa.
[41:16.240 --> 41:17.420]  Let's just call him dead guy.
[41:18.000 --> 41:32.760]  After you've gotten dead guy's replacement social security number, which by the way, they go in the name of dead guy, and so on and so forth.
[41:32.920 --> 41:53.260]  After you go and rent an apartment in the name of dead guy, or hopefully you're smart enough or cheap enough to get a mail drop in the name of dead guy, and you go with this Iowa dead guy's information, you say, uh, I never had a driver's license, but I want one so I can drive out to the Hamptons and see my girlfriend.
[41:54.020 --> 41:55.660]  They'll give you a license, not a problem.
[41:56.220 --> 41:58.800]  What are you supposed to do once this all starts?
[41:58.800 --> 42:00.120]  I hope you all are taking notes.
[42:01.280 --> 42:03.760]  Once this all starts, is there any way to stop?
[42:04.220 --> 42:07.620]  I mean, once you've applied for that first credit card or...
[42:07.620 --> 42:09.460]  That first phony credit card?
[42:09.460 --> 42:09.980]  The first real one.
[42:09.980 --> 42:11.960]  You mean once you're hooked, how do you break the habit?
[42:14.120 --> 42:14.680]  No, no.
[42:15.600 --> 42:16.360]  It's tough.
[42:16.500 --> 42:17.200]  Take it from me.
[42:18.660 --> 42:21.940]  Once your information gets out there, is there any way to stop?
[42:22.160 --> 42:22.460]  I mean...
[42:23.460 --> 42:24.100]  How old are you?
[42:24.620 --> 42:25.060]  32.
[42:26.020 --> 42:27.320]  Come to my panel tonight.
[42:27.360 --> 42:30.600]  We're going to have a live feed to our investigative support service.
[42:30.600 --> 42:32.440]  We have the largest online service.
[42:32.600 --> 42:34.520]  We are the guys who invade your privacy.
[42:36.000 --> 42:43.120]  The reason I'm not doing it now is we had to figure out a way and it took until this evening to make sure none of you guys find out our dial-up.
[42:47.020 --> 42:48.480]  That's really true, by the way.
[42:49.300 --> 42:52.460]  We had to set up a whole call forwarding thing.
[42:54.680 --> 42:56.220]  No, not to a pay phone.
[42:58.600 --> 43:01.180]  Unless we really managed to work that out.
[43:02.160 --> 43:04.220]  If you're 32, it's too late.
[43:04.360 --> 43:04.840]  Come tonight.
[43:05.120 --> 43:06.400]  I'll pull all your records.
[43:06.520 --> 43:07.820]  I'll use you as the test case.
[43:08.420 --> 43:12.660]  And I guarantee you, I will have a letter from your lawyer by morning.
[43:14.400 --> 43:15.220]  But you know what?
[43:15.240 --> 43:16.100]  It'll all be legal.
[43:16.280 --> 43:17.080]  So, eh, tough.
[43:17.980 --> 43:18.380]  Hi.
[43:19.060 --> 43:20.720]  You mentioned that if you're...
[43:20.720 --> 43:20.900]  Huh?
[43:21.160 --> 43:24.620]  You mentioned that if you're totally honest, you have nothing to worry about.
[43:24.620 --> 43:28.700]  Well, when I got married, I went to change my name.
[43:29.000 --> 43:39.960]  It has so far cost me $450 in lawyers, days where I couldn't work, responding to the DMVs, requests...
[43:39.960 --> 43:40.540]  Where do you live?
[43:40.800 --> 43:41.500]  The IRS.
[43:41.860 --> 43:42.780]  New York State.
[43:43.180 --> 43:43.880]  That's why.
[43:44.140 --> 43:44.800]  It's a joy.
[43:45.720 --> 43:48.220]  I still haven't gotten everything switched over to my name.
[43:48.220 --> 43:49.600]  Our main office is in Texas.
[43:49.600 --> 44:00.140]  And I want to tell you why our main office is in Texas, even though I'm born and bred in Brooklyn, which is no secret to most of you from my deep Texas accent.
[44:03.000 --> 44:06.580]  I go into the bank in Texas, and it's, hey, Steve, how you doing?
[44:06.580 --> 44:11.100]  No bulletproof glass, pot of coffee, free Styrofoam cups.
[44:11.460 --> 44:12.880]  You go into the DMV.
[44:13.020 --> 44:13.600]  There's no line.
[44:14.700 --> 44:15.400]  Hi, Steve.
[44:15.520 --> 44:16.080]  How you doing?
[44:16.520 --> 44:18.000]  You go to the local cafe.
[44:18.000 --> 44:21.260]  The judge in the civil court is sitting at the next table.
[44:21.440 --> 44:22.100]  Hi, Steve.
[44:22.240 --> 44:22.780]  How you doing?
[44:24.280 --> 44:29.560]  Your kid goes to school with the clerk from the DMV, with the clerk from the property office.
[44:29.780 --> 44:34.620]  The voter registration clerk doesn't ask for your ID, probably because you live next door to her.
[44:35.580 --> 44:37.100]  New York sucks.
[44:37.460 --> 44:39.140]  That's the answer to your question.
[44:43.620 --> 44:47.160]  It is not, I promise you, it is not this hard.
[44:47.160 --> 44:50.420]  In fact, in Texas, it's one-stop shopping.
[44:50.660 --> 44:55.860]  All you have to do is change your DL, and that's evidence of name change, and everybody else does it automatically.
[44:58.660 --> 45:01.140]  Let me give you a federal example.
[45:01.740 --> 45:02.120]  What can I tell you?
[45:03.520 --> 45:07.560]  I went to get my social security number switched over to my married name.
[45:07.700 --> 45:10.320]  They said I didn't have sufficient proof, so they wouldn't do it.
[45:10.320 --> 45:15.640]  So, I changed my name and wrote an attaching letter of explanation when I filed my tax return.
[45:16.700 --> 45:19.680]  The IRS has still not been able to figure it out.
[45:20.000 --> 45:20.540]  Neither has...
[45:20.540 --> 45:21.460]  I know the story.
[45:21.460 --> 45:25.440]  State of New York, State of New Jersey, State of Connecticut, which I have to do tri-state filing for.
[45:26.280 --> 45:28.060]  And it keeps going, on and on.
[45:28.180 --> 45:29.380]  Well, the first thing I can tell you is...
[45:29.380 --> 45:30.580]  I've been married three years.
[45:30.700 --> 45:33.360]  The first thing I can tell you is you don't have to pay taxes in three states.
[45:37.560 --> 45:42.500]  Look, the simple solution, believe it or not, is apply for a new social security number under your married name.
[45:42.980 --> 45:44.000]  They'll let you do it.
[45:44.340 --> 45:46.200]  That's just a little unsolicited tip.
[45:46.320 --> 45:46.800]  It sucks.
[45:47.320 --> 45:48.400]  It really sucks.
[45:49.120 --> 45:50.460]  Not my job, you know?
[45:53.080 --> 45:53.480]  Next.
[45:53.820 --> 45:55.480]  If we wanted to...
[45:55.480 --> 45:56.220]  Wait a second.
[45:56.380 --> 45:57.460]  No seconds.
[45:57.600 --> 45:58.040]  No seconds?
[45:58.420 --> 45:58.860]  No, no, no.
[45:58.860 --> 45:59.200]  I'm kidding.
[45:59.400 --> 45:59.940]  What's the question?
[46:00.140 --> 46:01.060]  I'm from Bensonhurst.
[46:01.720 --> 46:02.160]  All right.
[46:02.200 --> 46:03.980]  In that case, come back as often as you want.
[46:05.240 --> 46:05.640]  The...
[46:06.140 --> 46:13.080]  If we wanted to check out who we are, where we are, can you give us some websites, some locations?
[46:13.500 --> 46:14.700]  Who we are, where we are?
[46:14.740 --> 46:15.760]  You mean, you don't know?
[46:17.280 --> 46:17.680]  Well...
[46:17.680 --> 46:20.100]  We'd like to know what other people know about us.
[46:20.160 --> 46:22.020]  You're at the wrong convention, let me tell you.
[46:26.340 --> 46:28.600]  You know, use a search engine.
[46:28.600 --> 46:33.260]  I mean, first of all, there's a lot of really, really obvious databases.
[46:33.520 --> 46:35.760]  Publicly accessible through the web databases.
[46:36.120 --> 46:39.520]  Everything from Switchboard to 411 to all that good stuff.
[46:40.820 --> 46:54.080]  There are a lot of weasels out there who sell stuff they shouldn't through the net because they can be in Cucamonga and nobody will find them and they just move their T1 or whatever.
[46:55.660 --> 46:57.500]  Well, most of them don't have T1s.
[46:57.560 --> 46:59.280]  They move their phone.
[47:02.000 --> 47:05.240]  There are a lot of publicly accessible free databases.
[47:05.580 --> 47:07.120]  And God bless these people.
[47:08.040 --> 47:23.260]  You know, this is a wonderful, wonderful thing that I don't have to pay a fortune, go through 8,000 people, and beg the police to find my long-lost Uncle Harry.
[47:23.260 --> 47:29.200]  All I've got to do is go on 411.com and plug in his name.
[47:29.200 --> 47:33.100]  And if he's got a listed phone number, hey, I'm calling Harry in two minutes.
[47:35.980 --> 47:42.120]  Most of the really good information out there are proprietary databases.
[47:42.120 --> 47:44.380]  They cost a small fortune to compile.
[47:44.580 --> 47:45.400]  Take it from me.
[47:45.580 --> 47:47.840]  They cost a small fortune to compile.
[47:48.400 --> 47:50.160]  And they are fee-based services.
[47:50.160 --> 47:52.000]  So you're going to have to pay something to get in them.
[47:53.120 --> 47:55.040]  If you want to talk to me later, talk to me.
[47:55.200 --> 47:56.260]  It would really...
[47:56.260 --> 47:57.960]  I mean, that's a whole other talk.
[47:57.980 --> 48:01.320]  I don't know if it's going to be part of the panel tonight or...
[48:03.260 --> 48:04.880]  Emmanuel has other plans for me.
[48:04.880 --> 48:08.180]  But it really would take about an hour to go into that.
[48:11.790 --> 48:13.950]  You've already said that you didn't think that some of the...
[48:13.950 --> 48:14.510]  Say what?
[48:14.630 --> 48:14.970]  I can't hear you.
[48:15.030 --> 48:18.570]  You've already said that you didn't think the databases that are out there are all that dangerous.
[48:19.130 --> 48:20.750]  I don't think databases that are...
[48:20.750 --> 48:25.450]  The databases that you have your name and information in, you don't feel that it's dangerous to have that information on people.
[48:25.730 --> 48:26.410]  No, I don't.
[48:27.090 --> 48:27.410]  All right.
[48:27.650 --> 48:29.850]  Are you willing to make a little prediction into the future and tell me what...
[48:29.850 --> 48:30.170]  Say what?
[48:30.410 --> 48:35.750]  Willing to make a little prediction about the future And tell me what you think it will be like in 10 years as far as protecting your privacy.
[48:40.190 --> 48:41.430]  It's a very good question.
[48:41.630 --> 48:42.850]  It's a really, really good question.
[48:44.170 --> 48:46.230]  I think 10 years is here now.
[48:47.970 --> 48:50.330]  I know that you're...
[48:50.850 --> 48:53.710]  Is that like the alarm that my talk is up?
[48:56.850 --> 49:04.890]  I think you're asking me how impressive, how frightening will these databases be in 10 years?
[49:05.430 --> 49:07.930]  Not any more impressive or frightening than they are now.
[49:08.030 --> 49:10.950]  Let me tell you, everything is already accessible.
[49:11.090 --> 49:19.750]  And I can cross-reference information and predict things about you with a 99.9% of certainty that aren't in a database.
[49:21.670 --> 49:23.010]  I'll give you an example.
[49:23.010 --> 49:38.150]  Before gay magazines started selling their mailing lists, a lot of people went out there and just simply searched for two people of the same sex living together who had gone through one move together.
[49:38.490 --> 49:41.810]  In other words, these two people, these two guys or these two girls lived here.
[49:42.030 --> 49:43.410]  Now they both live here.
[49:43.790 --> 49:46.130]  There's a really good chance they're gay.
[49:46.330 --> 49:47.830]  And it turned out to be true.
[49:48.550 --> 49:55.330]  You can extrapolate out to things right now because the computing power is amazing.
[49:55.790 --> 50:05.410]  Let me tell you that other than the government, the few people who buy Cray supercomputers are each one of the credit bureaus.
[50:05.410 --> 50:07.190]  That's absolutely true.
[50:07.410 --> 50:09.410]  Because it's amazing what they can do.
[50:10.630 --> 50:30.010]  If you are... if I'm Ali North, God forbid, and I want to find out who is going to contribute money to my legal defense bills, or my run for senator, or my run for dictator, how do I do it?
[50:30.130 --> 50:34.710]  Well, I go to a ZIP Code where most people are very conservative.
[50:35.070 --> 50:36.790]  I get a list of all the voters.
[50:36.790 --> 50:41.710]  I make sure they're conservative by finding out that they vote Republican.
[50:41.910 --> 50:44.290]  And then I cross-reference that with a list of NRA people.
[50:44.810 --> 50:48.950]  I've got people, nine out of ten, who are going to contribute to my campaign.
[50:49.270 --> 50:57.210]  Even if it's like some nitroglycerin-soaked tin mailed to me in a free mailing envelope.
[50:58.130 --> 50:59.230]  I shouldn't say that.
[51:00.310 --> 51:01.970]  You are allowed to have your...
[51:01.970 --> 51:03.390]  By the way, there's a guy out there.
[51:03.410 --> 51:04.470]  I'm not going to say his name.
[51:04.470 --> 51:07.670]  If I was a hacker, there's a guy with a table out there.
[51:07.730 --> 51:09.370]  He's the first guy I'd hack.
[51:09.570 --> 51:10.390]  Because he makes...
[51:10.390 --> 51:14.370]  He makes Ali North look like a McGovern Democrat.
[51:16.610 --> 51:26.390]  But not that I would suggest you pick on people because of their political points of view, no matter how fascistic and ridiculous they may be.
[51:31.390 --> 51:33.450]  That was my Dennis Miller imitation.
[51:37.950 --> 51:43.130]  I don't think ten years from now databases are going to be any more remarkable than they are now.
[51:43.290 --> 51:48.730]  What I do think, and what I'm sure of, is those capabilities are going to be more widely used.
[51:49.910 --> 51:59.150]  I think that private investigators, for example, are going to start doing demographic and psychographic profiling of people they're investigating.
[51:59.150 --> 52:00.170]  I already do that.
[52:00.430 --> 52:08.550]  If I'm investigating you and the client has enough money for the budget, our corporate motto is there's nothing we can't find out.
[52:08.670 --> 52:10.730]  There's clients who just run out of money.
[52:12.750 --> 52:13.610]  I joke.
[52:13.830 --> 52:15.210]  That was the other throwaway line.
[52:17.110 --> 52:19.350]  We already do that in big-ticket cases.
[52:20.750 --> 52:22.410]  We do that in murder cases.
[52:22.650 --> 52:24.150]  If the guy is really innocent.
[52:24.310 --> 52:25.130]  We don't work for OJ.
[52:25.130 --> 52:25.250]  Okay.
[52:27.350 --> 52:47.870]  I think that, well, I can tell you right now that TransUnion already sells the header information to all of their credit reports, meaning name, address, phone number, age, not date of birth, age, do they own a home, do they own a car?
[52:47.870 --> 52:51.050]  A few other little, are they a new home buyer?
[52:51.210 --> 52:52.350]  Are they a new car buyer?
[52:52.610 --> 52:54.730]  And a few other key pieces of information.
[52:54.950 --> 53:04.670]  You can go and buy all that information on, it's either five or six CD-ROMs, and they sell you licenses over the phone.
[53:04.670 --> 53:21.270]  If you want all the females in your ZIP Code between the age of 20 and 25 who drive Volkswagens and have enough money to own a house, and I know I do, you can buy it from them.
[53:22.130 --> 53:31.910]  And you can call them up, you can get an activation code right on the phone by giving them your MasterCard or Visa, MasterCard or Visa.
[53:32.990 --> 53:37.950]  And they will give you an activation code that will allow you to pull however many records you paid for.
[53:38.250 --> 53:41.390]  So, all the capabilities are already there.
[53:41.630 --> 53:43.070]  Big business is doing it.
[53:43.510 --> 53:44.990]  Marketing companies are doing it.
[53:44.990 --> 53:50.870]  The government is buying these lists left and right, and that's really true.
[53:51.270 --> 53:54.890]  All those big brother fears are really justified in that area.
[53:56.670 --> 54:00.710]  But, the big change is going to be that you and I are going to start doing that sort of thing.
[54:02.210 --> 54:02.970]  I don't know.
[54:03.070 --> 54:04.530]  Emmanuel, where are you?
[54:04.570 --> 54:05.010]  Are you here?
[54:05.130 --> 54:07.990]  Do I need to take like one more question or something?
[54:08.830 --> 54:10.070]  One more question.
[54:10.290 --> 54:11.290]  Make it a good one.
[54:11.910 --> 54:12.390]  Okay.
[54:13.050 --> 54:15.230]  The natives in the back are restless.
[54:15.490 --> 54:18.150]  They want... Who's up next?
[54:19.270 --> 54:19.590]  Probably...
[54:19.910 --> 54:20.330]  Okay.
[54:20.830 --> 54:26.510]  Given the government agents you have spotted here yourself...
[54:26.510 --> 54:27.390]  Say what?
[54:27.670 --> 54:32.730]  I said, given the government agents you have spotted here yourself, suppose I work...
[54:32.730 --> 54:34.450]  Given the government agents, what?
[54:34.450 --> 54:34.690]  Yeah.
[54:35.030 --> 54:35.430]  Sorry.
[54:36.150 --> 54:41.870]  Suppose I work for the federal government with high security clearance and I'm standing here right now.
[54:41.870 --> 54:43.230]  Do you think they know I'm here?
[54:45.950 --> 54:47.390]  No, but now I'll tell them.
[54:47.730 --> 54:48.170]  I mean...
[54:48.810 --> 54:51.150]  I don't think they care if you're here.
[54:51.970 --> 54:52.750]  You know...
[54:54.490 --> 54:57.670]  Last time I looked, you guys aren't doing anything illegal.
[54:58.110 --> 55:03.910]  Most of you, in a couple of years, are going to be in a pretty high tax bracket, whether you like it or not.
[55:05.370 --> 55:16.330]  You know, most of you are the type of people that, if you want to go to the Malaysian embassy and offer to emigrate, they take you in a heartbeat.
[55:16.770 --> 55:17.870]  America wants you.
[55:17.870 --> 55:20.650]  Nobody's interested in suppressing this convention.
[55:20.650 --> 55:25.890]  There are a couple of schmucks out there who give hackers a bad name and that's unfortunate.
[55:26.210 --> 55:30.710]  But most of you guys are pretty good guys as far as law enforcement is concerned.
[55:30.930 --> 55:32.030]  Take it from me, I know.
[55:32.910 --> 55:33.310]  So...
[55:33.730 --> 55:34.130]  And...
[55:34.610 --> 55:35.010]  And...
[55:35.570 --> 55:36.170]  Never mind.
[55:36.290 --> 55:36.810]  I wasn't even...
[55:36.810 --> 55:38.670]  I probably shouldn't say what I was about to say.
[55:38.810 --> 55:39.730]  But it was a compliment.
[55:40.110 --> 55:40.770]  Say it!
[55:41.470 --> 55:43.790]  I don't want your heads to get too swelled.
[55:44.050 --> 55:45.390]  About six months ago...
[55:45.390 --> 55:46.850]  I think it was about six or eight months ago...
[55:46.850 --> 55:50.950]  You're not supposed to be asking this question, so this is really the last question.
[55:51.030 --> 55:51.110]  It's a good one.
[55:51.110 --> 55:51.230]  Okay.
[55:51.890 --> 55:56.930]  About six or eight months ago, 411 removed its reverse phone number search from...
[55:57.610 --> 55:58.850]  as one of its services.
[55:59.310 --> 55:59.930]  There's other...
[55:59.930 --> 56:00.590]  There's other...
[56:00.590 --> 56:04.030]  It was really useful, I found, in incorporating that with caller ID.
[56:04.590 --> 56:04.850]  And I...
[56:04.850 --> 56:11.390]  You know, I had some property stolen that I had advertised in the paper and I had sitting on the side of the road and people were calling me and taunting me.
[56:11.750 --> 56:14.410]  And when I went to use it, I found out that it was gone.
[56:14.590 --> 56:23.290]  Well, I emailed, you know, a comment to the people that ran the service and they said, I'm sorry that we had to remove it due to security reasons.
[56:23.590 --> 56:26.290]  But how much would you be willing to pay for this service?
[56:26.530 --> 56:27.930]  You're a cheap guy.
[56:28.450 --> 56:31.270]  You're too cheap to go out and buy ProPhone.
[56:31.570 --> 56:34.730]  That's just the CD where I could do that database search anyways.
[56:34.730 --> 56:34.970]  The exact same thing.
[56:35.510 --> 56:36.010]  Well, why do you...
[56:36.010 --> 56:37.350]  In fact, it's the...
[56:37.350 --> 56:37.990]  Well, no, wait.
[56:38.570 --> 56:42.370]  411 was ProPhone and Switchboard is phone disk.
[56:42.890 --> 56:45.310]  Listen, just don't be a cheapskate.
[56:45.590 --> 56:46.690]  Do you think that's...
[56:46.690 --> 56:48.470]  Buy the CD-ROM set for $129.
[56:48.470 --> 56:50.790]  Do you think the point is of why they removed it?
[56:50.850 --> 56:53.550]  Because, hey, we want people to pay for that extra service?
[56:53.730 --> 56:55.290]  I'm sure that's why they did it.
[56:55.430 --> 56:55.590]  That's it.
[56:55.930 --> 57:06.330]  There had to be some function of the software that you couldn't get for free on the web to justify you going out and spending $129.
[57:06.550 --> 57:09.770]  And I don't think that's necessarily an evil corporate thing.
[57:09.910 --> 57:14.110]  If I've spent a gazillion dollars putting together this product, hey, pay me $100.
[57:14.690 --> 57:15.550]  It's just interesting.
[57:15.650 --> 57:18.550]  At that time, I didn't even know that those CD-ROMs existed.
[57:18.550 --> 57:20.490]  And she didn't even mention it to me.
[57:20.510 --> 57:21.990]  So I found that kind of weird.
[57:24.030 --> 57:25.530]  Well, you got your answer.
[57:25.790 --> 57:26.170]  Great.
[57:26.270 --> 57:32.370]  You know, but since you're the guy who grabbed the mic against the rules, I guess I know why.
[57:32.770 --> 57:33.450]  No, I'm kidding.
[57:34.110 --> 57:35.710]  Hey, thank you very much, folks.
[57:54.470 --> 57:54.870]  Hello?
[57:55.190 --> 57:55.330]  Okay.
[57:55.710 --> 57:58.010]  We have the L0pht panel coming up in just a couple of minutes.
[57:58.250 --> 57:58.690]  So, uh...
[58:00.770 --> 58:01.550]  Five minutes max.
[58:07.790 --> 58:09.590]  Co-co-co-co podcasts.
[58:54.610 --> 58:54.990]  14.
[58:54.990 --> 58:55.150]  Good.
[58:55.290 --> 58:55.430]  Good.
[58:55.430 --> 58:56.510]  Tell me something You can...
[58:58.190 --> 58:59.790]  play a piece of this.