[00:00.000 --> 00:00.640]  A lot of fun.
[00:01.560 --> 00:03.120]  And I'm sorry, we could still do music.
[00:03.260 --> 00:04.460]  Are we still working on visuals?
[00:05.680 --> 00:06.220]  Are we restarting?
[00:06.560 --> 00:07.240]  Yeah, I'm restarting.
[00:07.940 --> 00:09.600]  AV, you could bring the music back up again.
[00:12.060 --> 00:14.380]  Fun people, they're beginning to suspect us.
[00:14.500 --> 00:17.580]  So anyway, we've got Griffin Boyce here to talk about hacktivism in the Arab Spring.
[00:17.740 --> 00:19.960]  We're a little bit running short, but go right ahead Griffin, take it away.
[00:21.560 --> 00:21.940]  Great.
[00:23.980 --> 00:24.360]  Hi.
[00:25.280 --> 00:39.900]  So, unfortunately, because this is, you know, a hacker conference, and because anything that could go wrong will go wrong, I actually had my original slides eaten and had to recreate these partly last night and partly today after like two or three hours of sleep.
[00:39.920 --> 00:41.680]  So, let's just do this.
[00:44.840 --> 00:54.180]  There will be slightly... these are slightly different than I originally intended, but you can still see all the sources for this after the conference at blog.cryptic.b.
[00:54.620 --> 00:56.920]  You can also contact me by phone.
[00:57.140 --> 00:57.940]  The cake is a lie.
[00:58.080 --> 00:59.200]  I don't actually answer it.
[00:59.200 --> 01:00.480]  But I will call you back.
[01:01.140 --> 01:03.260]  And you can see me on Twitter at that name.
[01:04.160 --> 01:07.620]  And in the immortal words of my computer, om nom nom nom nom nom nom nom.
[01:08.740 --> 01:15.620]  So, first I want to give you a little bit of a background on sort of, you know, not that broad, but what is censorship?
[01:15.860 --> 01:17.760]  What are the ideas that sort of form censorship?
[01:17.960 --> 01:19.840]  What makes people think that that's a great idea?
[01:20.720 --> 01:23.560]  And what are sort of the differences in society that makes it possible?
[01:24.860 --> 01:34.920]  The big thing that I want to point out is that there's not a massive difference between societies in the Middle East and, say, societies in what's colloquially called the West.
[01:35.180 --> 01:37.920]  There's not that much difference between America and Egypt.
[01:38.740 --> 01:41.920]  People still... the average person is roughly the same.
[01:42.140 --> 01:45.960]  They might be a different religion, maybe, or maybe not, depending on who you are.
[01:45.960 --> 01:47.860]  And they might do different things.
[01:48.280 --> 01:50.460]  But for the most part, they have sort of a similar outlook.
[01:50.740 --> 01:56.220]  But Michael Foucault, or Michel Foucault, was a social theorist, died in 84.
[01:56.980 --> 02:00.640]  He worked in prison reform, critique of major social structures like medicine.
[02:01.060 --> 02:07.080]  He's gay, so he's also fascinated by systems of control, the ways that we are oppressed or oppress ourselves.
[02:09.320 --> 02:16.940]  And so, how he is on punishment is, you know, you have two types of societies, according to Foucault, which is the disciplinary society and society control.
[02:17.380 --> 02:20.780]  In a disciplinary society, you're surrounded by the stop signs.
[02:21.560 --> 02:24.440]  And basically saying, okay, if you go past this point, that's bad.
[02:24.660 --> 02:26.380]  And you can be severely punished.
[02:26.560 --> 02:29.540]  And it's very clear what the punishment is and what the infraction is.
[02:30.020 --> 02:32.300]  They're very, very well-defined rules.
[02:33.520 --> 02:35.680]  There are also what's called enclosed social spaces.
[02:35.920 --> 02:41.600]  So, your social circle is mostly your family, extremely close friends, and very small social circle.
[02:41.600 --> 02:46.860]  And some sort of outside body like a state or an organization dominates you as an individual.
[02:47.880 --> 02:54.100]  That would be sort of, think of pre-1950s America, where everything's very socially hardwired.
[02:54.400 --> 02:57.740]  And if you step outside the boundaries, you could be horribly ostracized forever.
[02:58.520 --> 03:00.340]  And now, it's not so much the case.
[03:00.480 --> 03:06.200]  Even if you, you know, strip naked and masturbating in the streets like a cony guy, I think that you'll eventually get over it.
[03:09.840 --> 03:14.420]  A society of control is what we live in now, where we're self-regulating.
[03:14.560 --> 03:15.760]  The stop signs are in our head.
[03:16.460 --> 03:30.400]  Actually, Johannes Grenzfurthner, who has been around and throughout the con, has put this in a really great way, which is that, you know, 60 years ago, if you ever talked about masturbation, people would say, you know, Oh, don't do that.
[03:30.520 --> 03:31.380]  You'll go to hell for that.
[03:31.960 --> 03:32.620]  Don't do that.
[03:32.760 --> 03:32.960]  Never.
[03:33.200 --> 03:37.800]  Now they say something like, be responsible about your use of masturbation.
[03:38.400 --> 03:46.820]  And they rely on you to sort of self-regulate and sort of insinuate that something bad will happen in a really non-specific fashion.
[03:50.120 --> 03:58.000]  So, there's been a lot of talk about censorship, getting past it, you know, moving through these sort of barriers to communication all throughout this conference.
[03:59.120 --> 04:01.960]  And, you know, the telecomics panel was absolutely amazing.
[04:02.540 --> 04:12.360]  And, you know, what I just want to focus on is stuff that was sort of organically created by Egyptians, by Libyans, by Syrians, and other people in the Middle East.
[04:13.340 --> 04:15.520]  But also sort of talk about the barriers to collaboration.
[04:16.480 --> 04:23.440]  I think the biggest barrier to sort of European or American collaboration with people in the Middle East is exoticism.
[04:24.140 --> 04:30.500]  And, you know, to a larger extent, sort of xenophobia, racism, bigotry, and all those other factors that sort of come into this.
[04:31.820 --> 04:38.280]  And people sort of really emphasize this idea that, you know, they are so much different than us.
[04:38.880 --> 04:40.260]  The they is really nebulous.
[04:40.440 --> 04:42.520]  The us is really well-defined as being me.
[04:42.740 --> 04:44.320]  They are very different from me, specifically.
[04:45.540 --> 04:49.560]  Well, my friends who live in America are very different from me, and that's not a huge barrier.
[04:50.820 --> 04:55.780]  You know, these are all adults, many of whom are extraordinarily well-educated, better educated than me.
[04:56.580 --> 04:59.060]  Language barrier is less of a barrier than it used to be.
[04:59.140 --> 05:04.840]  So I think that there's not a whole lot of reason to sort of have this odd sort of us versus them.
[05:06.220 --> 05:09.120]  We would never break through this cultural barrier.
[05:09.120 --> 05:20.420]  I don't think that that's actually applicable as it might have been in, say, the 40s or 50s, especially with the Internet, with mass media, with broad-scale print writings now.
[05:22.000 --> 05:26.780]  On the other end of the coin, there's also suspicion, because we have a really terrible foreign policy, typically.
[05:27.420 --> 05:31.120]  The EU's foreign policy in regards towards the Middle East is sort of improving.
[05:31.400 --> 05:33.740]  The U.S., maybe not so much.
[05:34.240 --> 05:37.620]  But so we get regarded with a little bit of suspicion.
[05:37.620 --> 05:45.800]  You know, it's kind of amazing because, you know, if you meet me in the U.S. and, you know, you're sort of like, there's no way this guy ever worked for the CIA.
[05:48.260 --> 05:59.260]  But, you know, if you don't know that much about what people in the CIA look like or how they interact with others or their position in society, you might actually think that.
[05:59.740 --> 06:09.660]  If you've never seen someone who actually worked for the CIA before, you might actually think that this random Westerner who wants to be all up in your business is really working for the CIA.
[06:10.380 --> 06:14.580]  Or, you know, is a Israeli spy or anything, MI5.
[06:15.080 --> 06:16.200]  And there's also sanctions.
[06:16.480 --> 06:24.820]  It's really, really, really difficult to go to Libya if you're American or from the UK, because there are sanctions in place.
[06:24.860 --> 06:28.080]  You can actually get into serious trouble for that, get huge, huge fines.
[06:28.600 --> 06:34.140]  If you're actually suspected of doing anything, you know, nebulously bad, it could actually be quite bad whenever you get back to the U.S.
[06:34.540 --> 06:36.880]  So, I think that that's a really, a huge barrier.
[06:37.900 --> 06:42.320]  But more so, it's sort of this idea that people are too different from each other, which I think is bullshit.
[06:44.460 --> 06:52.380]  So, I just want to get in and talk about Internet-related items and then going to what happens when the Internet goes away.
[06:53.560 --> 06:55.020]  The first one is Tor.
[06:55.360 --> 06:56.460]  And I love Tor.
[06:56.660 --> 07:00.340]  It's like, if I were Tor's boyfriend, we'd be sitting by the fire eating fondue.
[07:00.700 --> 07:02.400]  But it's not perfect.
[07:02.660 --> 07:04.540]  It's not, it's not a pedacia.
[07:05.300 --> 07:14.200]  It's, in some places, it's really easily blocked just by, you know, making a huge list of entry nodes, trying to hunt down all the bridges.
[07:14.700 --> 07:17.360]  You can use private bridges and sort of get past that a bit.
[07:17.660 --> 07:19.740]  It works in some countries, doesn't work in others.
[07:21.360 --> 07:23.940]  Some countries actually have instituted deep packet inspection.
[07:24.140 --> 07:26.420]  Like, Syria has done that in an effort to block Tor.
[07:27.160 --> 07:30.280]  A lot of them just find that it's easier just to turn off the Internet.
[07:31.860 --> 07:38.620]  But in a huge society like China, it's very easy to block Tor because they've got 60,000 people working on it day and night.
[07:39.100 --> 07:46.820]  And it's really difficult to be, you know, one of the 20, 30 people at Tor, trying to sort of break past that.
[07:48.740 --> 07:50.220]  And somehow they managed to do it.
[07:50.300 --> 07:52.360]  And I think that it's really a huge credit to them.
[07:52.580 --> 07:55.000]  It's a huge credit to their ability to think around this problem.
[07:55.160 --> 07:59.800]  And they're constantly, constantly fighting this sort of weird Internet arms race.
[08:01.840 --> 08:03.420]  It's relatively easy to use.
[08:04.120 --> 08:06.100]  Several years ago, I was trying to teach people how to use it.
[08:06.140 --> 08:09.760]  And it was extremely difficult for the average person to sort of wrap their head around.
[08:09.800 --> 08:10.680]  And very technical.
[08:10.840 --> 08:12.180]  And they had to have lots of notes and printouts.
[08:12.740 --> 08:14.020]  Now they have a browser bundle.
[08:14.220 --> 08:15.000]  It's two clicks.
[08:15.220 --> 08:16.860]  And you're using the Tor network.
[08:17.540 --> 08:19.500]  And if you are blocked, you can use a bridge.
[08:19.600 --> 08:20.800]  You can create a private bridge.
[08:20.980 --> 08:23.160]  And you can get around some of those blocks, but not all.
[08:23.340 --> 08:32.500]  If you're in a place like Pakistan, where they're attempting to block all secure HTTPS traffic, you might have a really difficult time actually breaking through that.
[08:33.880 --> 08:38.800]  Now, there are some ways to get around that, like using dial-up Internet, using satellite Internet.
[08:38.800 --> 08:41.880]  But it's not perfect, and you can't really rely on it.
[08:43.160 --> 08:45.220]  Tor hidden services are amazing.
[08:45.960 --> 08:48.860]  They're nearly impossible to censor, which is really difficult.
[08:53.920 --> 08:56.790]  Censoring something is really easy if you have control of the media.
[08:57.020 --> 09:02.780]  So making something that's difficult or impossible to censor is a feat sort of unto itself.
[09:02.980 --> 09:05.860]  And I think that it's really the most critical part of Tor.
[09:07.550 --> 09:09.620]  It's not easily visible on the open web.
[09:09.920 --> 09:20.290]  If you type in this 16-digit string and put .onion after it, even if you remember all of that, you still have to be on the Tor network to even see any of this stuff.
[09:21.220 --> 09:22.540]  And some restrictions apply.
[09:22.740 --> 09:29.920]  Like if you make a site and it has a lot of JavaScript, you might find that people in the browser bundle can't see anything just because it has JavaScript disabled by default.
[09:31.260 --> 09:32.400]  So it is revolutionary.
[09:32.400 --> 09:33.220]  It is amazing.
[09:33.220 --> 09:38.920]  Everyone should use it, should learn how to use it because it takes 10 minutes to learn, probably five minutes for this crowd.
[09:39.340 --> 09:45.050]  And if you really need to get a message out there, want to be totally anonymous in that, you can do it.
[09:45.400 --> 09:46.920]  And for basically no money.
[09:48.340 --> 09:48.780]  A2P.
[09:50.240 --> 09:51.460]  Tor is onion routing.
[09:51.670 --> 09:52.980]  A2P is garlic routing.
[09:53.260 --> 09:56.740]  It's extremely similar, but it's suckier in practice.
[09:57.320 --> 09:58.620]  It's not as well known.
[09:58.930 --> 10:05.700]  So getting enough people to use it together to make it difficult to block is sort of difficult in and of itself.
[10:05.840 --> 10:06.740]  It's almost a non-starter.
[10:08.080 --> 10:12.050]  So I don't really promote it, but some people use it, and some people find that it's easier to use.
[10:12.140 --> 10:12.780]  Some people don't.
[10:13.640 --> 10:20.880]  So the education and awareness of it are lacking, but the documentation is starting to come together.
[10:21.040 --> 10:26.660]  It's not as highly technical as it used to be, but you still have to have a very good grasp of the Internet in order to use it.
[10:29.500 --> 10:31.120]  Lots of people live stream protests.
[10:31.290 --> 10:32.580]  You see that with Occupy Oakland.
[10:32.930 --> 10:34.500]  Occupy Wall Street did it to an extent.
[10:35.080 --> 10:36.220]  Occupy Philly does it.
[10:36.340 --> 10:36.790]  Woo, Philly.
[10:40.450 --> 10:42.960]  But it's really easy to pinpoint your location.
[10:43.400 --> 10:47.900]  If you're in downtown Oakland, you can just watch the stream and be like, hey, I know where that's at.
[10:47.920 --> 10:49.050]  I get my bagels there every day.
[10:49.640 --> 10:50.860]  And that's the same...
[10:50.860 --> 10:53.460]  It completely applies even if you're in Homs, Syria.
[10:53.670 --> 10:55.980]  Be like, hey, that's where I get my bagels every day.
[10:56.440 --> 10:56.840]  You know?
[10:57.960 --> 11:02.120]  And so if you're a government agent, you'd be like, okay, well, they're like 10 feet from there every day.
[11:02.340 --> 11:04.200]  Why don't we just bomb this place?
[11:04.820 --> 11:08.520]  And while that sounds sort of like outrageous and that people do it, people actually die in this way.
[11:09.680 --> 11:17.100]  Syrian activist Rami al-Sayed died after live streaming all of these bombings in Syria, and eventually a bombing came to his house and he was killed.
[11:18.040 --> 11:24.560]  So you really have to weigh the risks and rewards of that, especially if you're in the Middle East and undergoing some sort of revolutionary process.
[11:24.560 --> 11:26.500]  It's not a safe environment.
[11:26.960 --> 11:29.640]  And you can get seriously injured, killed, et cetera.
[11:29.980 --> 11:31.660]  So that's what they're actually looking at.
[11:32.540 --> 11:48.440]  But, you know, this is sort of all on a side, but it's like, to use any of this, to use, you know, distributed systems like Diaspora or Twitter or Facebook, or trying to collaborate using anything, trying to collaborate using, you know, Yahoo games, which people do because they're not blocked in a lot of places.
[11:49.380 --> 11:51.520]  To do all of that, you need the Internet.
[11:52.200 --> 11:59.540]  And if you don't have the Internet in the first place, whether you're using a proxy or I2P or Tor, is not a discussion you need to have.
[11:59.680 --> 12:01.860]  Because they can, once they turn it off, you're done.
[12:03.140 --> 12:10.640]  So, if you're relying on these services to get the word out and connect, and work in these areas where there's a revolutionary process going on, you're super f*cked.
[12:10.880 --> 12:12.180]  You're totally, just totally f*cked.
[12:13.920 --> 12:15.380]  So what happens when they go away?
[12:15.540 --> 12:17.520]  Well, you have phone service.
[12:17.820 --> 12:18.920]  People call each other.
[12:19.200 --> 12:24.360]  In a lot of these countries, they didn't have that large of a surveillance process like we have in the U.S.
[12:24.480 --> 12:24.820]  right now.
[12:25.420 --> 12:30.180]  So it's not as easy for them to surveil a large portion of the population like it is in the U.S.
[12:31.580 --> 12:35.100]  nearly 100% of Libyans had phone service.
[12:35.640 --> 12:38.120]  6.1 million users in the country.
[12:38.500 --> 12:40.180]  82% of them had cell phones.
[12:40.360 --> 12:41.620]  That's a really huge number.
[12:42.180 --> 12:46.180]  And that's an absolutely massive percentage of people whenever you think about it.
[12:46.700 --> 12:58.300]  So, it's difficult to surveil everyone, and it's easier just to shut down the telephone service if you realize that, you know, 100,000 people are using it to connect and to maybe overthrow the government.
[13:03.300 --> 13:05.220]  So, dial-up Internet.
[13:06.680 --> 13:11.820]  Assuming that you have phone service, you can actually connect to things.
[13:12.000 --> 13:13.060]  You can get online.
[13:13.060 --> 13:20.360]  You can pay outrageous international calling rates for the joy of 56K modem at best.
[13:20.780 --> 13:21.920]  And people do.
[13:22.440 --> 13:31.020]  Telecomics ran an incredibly successful campaign during the Egyptian Revolution to get people online, to get them access to this information.
[13:31.180 --> 13:36.140]  Because if you're constantly surrounded by disinformation, you just literally don't know.
[13:36.380 --> 13:38.800]  And it sounds completely simplistic and everything like that.
[13:39.080 --> 13:41.460]  But if you really don't know, you just don't know.
[13:41.620 --> 13:42.880]  And you don't have anything to compare it to.
[13:42.980 --> 13:44.380]  So, that's incredibly powerful.
[13:45.220 --> 13:50.280]  One person can get online and share this information with all of their friends, all of their families, and it can get out.
[13:50.640 --> 13:53.980]  They can share it with their friends, or they can broadcast it on pirate radio.
[13:54.160 --> 13:55.300]  They can print out flyers.
[13:55.460 --> 13:56.680]  They can fax people locally.
[13:57.000 --> 13:59.280]  And so, it's really sort of an amazing tool.
[13:59.280 --> 14:04.900]  And it's really difficult to, you know, bring people together in this way without the power of the Internet.
[14:06.740 --> 14:08.300]  It's probably why it's got so popular.
[14:10.340 --> 14:11.260]  So, it's okay, okay.
[14:11.400 --> 14:13.720]  Well, what happens when the government gets wise and they shuts off the phones too?
[14:14.040 --> 14:14.400]  Okay.
[14:14.820 --> 14:20.720]  Well, plaintive wailing, followed by pirate radio, it would seem.
[14:22.040 --> 14:25.540]  Huge projects involving pirate radio have undergone in Egypt.
[14:25.540 --> 14:28.880]  This one was actually partly an east-west collaboration.
[14:29.120 --> 14:31.800]  And I can't give out the name of the people that were involved.
[14:32.480 --> 14:34.540]  But it was absolutely widespread.
[14:34.560 --> 14:43.760]  They had to make the parts, make the motherboards themselves, piece all of this together, and then put it in an easily, you know, broadcastable package.
[14:43.960 --> 14:52.560]  And then, on top of everything else, you have to build the towers, and put everything together, and, you know, locate tools locally, and make it work whenever you don't have the tools.
[14:52.800 --> 14:54.100]  And so, it's just amazing.
[14:55.160 --> 14:59.360]  It is technically illegal, but the upside is that no one cares, because it's a revolution.
[15:00.080 --> 15:04.220]  So, it's impossible to regulate post-revolution.
[15:04.460 --> 15:13.540]  Now that they're, you know, now that they have a new president, and, you know, they're looking at various government changes and things like that, they still don't really care.
[15:14.220 --> 15:28.860]  And the penalties are really minor, you might get a little fine, you know, at absolute maximum, maybe you'll get like a few days in jail, and it's not that big of a deal to them, because it's so much more important to have this free and open area for their opinion to be released.
[15:31.180 --> 15:35.100]  To an even bigger extent, pirate radio was a big deal in Libya.
[15:35.960 --> 15:46.200]  And it actually was credited with helping overthrow the government, because once they had restricted the media entirely, the pirate radio was the only way that you could get out an anti-Gaddafi message.
[15:46.780 --> 15:59.320]  And so, in early 2001, or excuse me, 2011, Radio Free Liberty began, Libya began broadcasting solidarity messages, news, revolutionary updates, updates on just random stuff.
[15:59.320 --> 16:02.880]  And they would time it really specifically so that they would hopefully not get shut down.
[16:04.480 --> 16:15.020]  There was lots of speculation that the Benghazi transmitter came from Radio North Sea, which is sort of this legendary pirate radio station that operated off, you know, off of Europe for like five years.
[16:15.200 --> 16:16.700]  They made a movie about it that was terrible.
[16:18.760 --> 16:24.300]  And, you know, they never said yes or no, but all the equipment was sold to Libya back in like 1977.
[16:25.520 --> 16:26.400]  So, maybe.
[16:27.960 --> 16:30.880]  And this covered most of northern Libya, which actually faces the sea.
[16:31.100 --> 16:34.900]  So, the part that's more inland, they didn't quite, didn't quite make it.
[16:35.100 --> 16:44.000]  But, after a while, they actually added a bunch of different radio stations, both in Benghazi and further south of the country.
[16:45.480 --> 16:51.740]  And even, you know, some, some that had youth programming came on, and these are all still pirate radio stations.
[16:51.960 --> 16:58.240]  Just because they've overthrown the government doesn't mean that they're going to go down and, you know, pay money and fill out paperwork and get this all set up.
[16:58.420 --> 17:01.040]  And, you know, so they're just going to, just going to keep doing it forever, basically.
[17:03.840 --> 17:04.200]  So...
[17:04.680 --> 17:05.340]  Did I miss one?
[17:05.440 --> 17:05.580]  Okay.
[17:06.040 --> 17:20.860]  So, these are where, if you really want to get interested in pirate radio, or regular radio, or community radio where it's totally legal and you can broadcast within the law and not have to pay a lot of money to do so, you can actually go online and check out freeradio.org or prometheusradio.org,
[17:20.960 --> 17:24.680]  which is actually based in Philadelphia, and they're really cool people, so...
[17:26.360 --> 17:27.660]  Bluetooth local networks.
[17:27.860 --> 17:29.580]  They're weapons of mass distribution.
[17:30.480 --> 17:37.100]  I have, you know, several hundred Syrian videos that were taken with mobile phones on my hard drive at home.
[17:37.400 --> 17:46.580]  And the way that they got out was Syrian mobile phones creating a local network, sending them to phone, to phone, to phone, to phone.
[17:46.580 --> 17:50.060]  And they didn't have access to the cellular network.
[17:50.240 --> 17:52.080]  So, what's the point in doing that?
[17:52.180 --> 17:58.900]  Well, if there's hundreds of you and hundreds of you have a copy of it, eventually one of you will get cell service somewhere.
[17:59.680 --> 18:01.980]  Eventually you'll flee and hit cell tower somewhere.
[18:02.440 --> 18:06.180]  Eventually, you know, the cell service will just come on briefly and you can upload these things.
[18:06.180 --> 18:12.040]  And it's an incredibly powerful tool and incredibly underused, I think.
[18:15.000 --> 18:17.380]  But there's just a lot of different ways that you can make this happen.
[18:17.540 --> 18:25.320]  And I think that it's kind of important for people to know that it's not just totally bleak and totally, you know, lost if you lose the Internet.
[18:25.640 --> 18:27.380]  So, this is a Bluetooth local network.
[18:28.820 --> 18:42.160]  There's sort of a new concept that's asynchronous mesh, which is that basically sort of like a local BBS, you actually connect to the network, you upload or you download news, and then you go on your merry way.
[18:42.420 --> 18:49.820]  And the network itself only connects to the Internet for like five minutes a day and will distribute your stuff at that time and will retrieve news at that time.
[18:50.180 --> 18:53.860]  So, more difficult to pinpoint in terms of location.
[18:53.860 --> 19:06.040]  If you have, you know, dial-up Internet or something like that, or you're just doing it totally locally, then this could actually work because it's a mesh network and you don't need to be connected to it 100% of the time.
[19:07.180 --> 19:08.700]  And then there's also BBSs.
[19:08.920 --> 19:18.260]  I have heard legends and tales of BBSs in Cairo that were sort of brought back to life after everything sort of went down except the phone service.
[19:18.480 --> 19:20.180]  And I think that this is a really cool idea.
[19:20.180 --> 19:27.760]  And it's a lot more applicable than, you know, the asynchronous mesh, which is a new buzzword, it sounds cool, it's not there yet.
[19:27.760 --> 19:29.940]  But we can make a BBS like tonight.
[19:30.640 --> 19:32.300]  So, it's really easy to do.
[19:34.700 --> 19:36.260]  And so, yeah.
[19:37.740 --> 19:39.700]  And that's most of it, honestly.
[19:40.040 --> 19:41.320]  You know, we've got print media.
[19:41.620 --> 19:43.560]  We've got people distributing flyers.
[19:43.780 --> 19:44.980]  A lot of it is word of mouth.
[19:45.720 --> 19:47.860]  A lot of it is simply door to door to door to door.
[19:50.260 --> 19:55.760]  And, you know, I think that people need to sort of realize that it's not necessarily something that requires the Internet.
[19:56.420 --> 20:00.840]  It's like, you know, organizing in the Middle East is not super different than organizing in the U.S.
[20:01.060 --> 20:07.300]  You might go to someone's house, eat some hummus, drink some wine, come up with a plan, and then tomorrow go and have a protest.
[20:07.820 --> 20:09.260]  So, yeah.
[20:09.460 --> 20:11.680]  I think that with that, I'm actually just going to open it up to the floor.
[20:11.780 --> 20:13.080]  This is super, super, super short.
[20:13.260 --> 20:15.420]  But I did have to remake these like this morning.
[20:15.580 --> 20:18.480]  So, I think I'm just going to open it up for questions.
[20:18.760 --> 20:22.680]  And if there's something that I didn't cover or didn't cover enough, let me know and we can just talk about it.
[20:25.900 --> 20:26.220]  Hi.
[20:26.380 --> 20:26.640]  Thanks.
[20:26.680 --> 20:29.620]  And good job on last minute slide remaking.
[20:30.200 --> 20:30.660]  Thank you.
[20:30.720 --> 20:32.680]  It's kind of a specialty at this point, frankly.
[20:32.980 --> 20:34.380]  It's not something you want to get good at.
[20:34.380 --> 20:34.840]  No.
[20:35.600 --> 20:38.260]  I have a question about what the actual user needs are.
[20:38.360 --> 20:42.360]  So, you kept talking about, you know, information and disinformation and things getting out.
[20:43.930 --> 20:51.040]  What information did people inside these countries actually want from the outside world or from their peers?
[20:51.240 --> 20:53.160]  Like, what's the information?
[20:53.900 --> 20:55.120]  A lot of it's regional.
[20:55.660 --> 21:00.640]  People in Region A or people in City A aren't getting news from City B.
[21:00.640 --> 21:05.540]  City B could be getting shelled every day and City A will never hear about it because it's never on the local media.
[21:06.100 --> 21:07.400]  And they can't connect to the Internet.
[21:07.660 --> 21:14.100]  And they're literally waiting for someone to, you know, effectively drive their car from the other town and be like, yeah, we just got blown to smithereens like two days ago.
[21:16.300 --> 21:20.040]  And it's really, we want to know how are our families?
[21:20.240 --> 21:22.400]  How are people that we know?
[21:23.060 --> 21:26.000]  You know, what can we do to help?
[21:26.000 --> 21:27.440]  Is this going our way?
[21:27.500 --> 21:29.540]  Are we the only town left that's still having a revolution?
[21:29.940 --> 21:31.320]  Is the tide turning?
[21:32.030 --> 21:33.900]  So, a lot of it is really hyper-local.
[21:34.320 --> 21:40.360]  On a broader scale, people are sort of, you know, the not necessarily need to know is like, how are things going in the UK?
[21:40.930 --> 21:42.120]  What's the weather going to be like?
[21:42.540 --> 21:45.120]  You know, stuff like that is really critical.
[21:45.240 --> 21:51.980]  They need some type of tethering to their families and their friends, and then also to some extent, you know, outside of their countries, outside of their regions.
[21:52.690 --> 21:59.700]  Because I think that we sort of have these, you know, being attached to our friends and our family is extremely important.
[21:59.920 --> 22:11.200]  But, you know, we also need these creature comforts like being able to talk to people that maybe we know overseas, maybe we chat with, maybe playing games, maybe, you know, all this little stuff that most of us really take for granted.
[22:11.200 --> 22:14.240]  But once you haven't had it for like a month or two, it gets really hard.
[22:14.950 --> 22:16.400]  So, I would actually say that.
[22:20.090 --> 22:28.710]  What about more conventional news sources like, well, TV would be the big one, because there are channels that aren't used.
[22:29.030 --> 22:34.450]  And I think that's probably being used somewhere just because of the number of things going on.
[22:34.770 --> 22:35.370]  Yes.
[22:35.370 --> 22:39.950]  And then also, with any of these comes slightly less convenience.
[22:40.630 --> 22:45.370]  And I was told that one of the greatest things about Twitter is it's so convenient and easy to use.
[22:46.650 --> 22:48.210]  And how much...
[22:50.130 --> 22:56.830]  How much worse is this than it would be if the governments were happy about free speech?
[22:58.450 --> 23:03.570]  Well, I think the real problem with television is that in most of these countries, it's actually...
[23:03.570 --> 23:06.990]  They have sort of a structure similar to the BBC, but with a dictatorship.
[23:07.370 --> 23:13.090]  Of where, ultimately, one organization controls who gets on television and who gets what voice.
[23:13.370 --> 23:20.470]  And, you know, sort of structured in a way that we only want these talking points, and we absolutely cannot stand these talking points.
[23:20.810 --> 23:24.710]  Namely, that we don't want anyone to come on our state television that says, let's overthrow the state.
[23:25.550 --> 23:27.470]  Because we're the ones operating the television station.
[23:28.610 --> 23:31.390]  You know, in some cases, they've actually taken over the television station.
[23:31.530 --> 23:34.710]  But, you know, I think that that's really rare.
[23:34.770 --> 23:38.190]  And I don't think that you can actually really make that happen again and again and again.
[23:38.310 --> 23:39.850]  I don't think that that's replicable in that way.
[23:41.310 --> 23:41.750]  Next.
[23:42.830 --> 23:46.350]  First off, are there really real bagels in the Middle East?
[23:46.650 --> 23:47.210]  Oh, yeah.
[23:47.710 --> 23:48.770]  Okay, that's excellent.
[23:49.430 --> 23:56.690]  And then, I heard that a lot of the reason why organizations...
[23:56.690 --> 24:01.030]  why organizing was so successful in the Middle East was because people met at mosques daily.
[24:01.990 --> 24:07.010]  And that they actually congregated in large groups and got to talk to each other.
[24:07.230 --> 24:08.690]  And I think that that's a...
[24:09.250 --> 24:10.810]  Here, we've got a lot of technology.
[24:11.050 --> 24:12.830]  And I don't know what would happen if they turned it all off.
[24:12.950 --> 24:19.950]  But most of us don't have places that we go to to meet our entire community.
[24:20.150 --> 24:21.310]  Most of us don't even know our neighbors.
[24:22.370 --> 24:22.730]  So...
[24:22.730 --> 24:24.310]  Well, I would say yes and no.
[24:24.310 --> 24:25.490]  Because it's...
[24:25.490 --> 24:29.230]  We don't have anything where we're sort of socially obligated to go.
[24:29.430 --> 24:31.170]  Like, which would be like a church or a mosque.
[24:31.370 --> 24:32.490]  A lot of us do go to church.
[24:32.490 --> 24:32.950]  I don't.
[24:33.050 --> 24:34.750]  But, you know, some of you guys do, definitely.
[24:35.850 --> 24:39.570]  And what you'll notice if you go to church is that not everyone has the same political beliefs that you do.
[24:39.570 --> 24:42.830]  So, while it's true that some people organized in mosques.
[24:42.930 --> 24:44.250]  A lot of people organized in houses.
[24:45.210 --> 24:46.130]  You know, organized with their friends.
[24:46.230 --> 24:47.170]  Organized in coffee shops.
[24:47.910 --> 24:51.710]  You know, you can sort of think about how, if you're involved in Occupy at all.
[24:51.870 --> 24:53.350]  Or in another sort of protest movement.
[24:53.850 --> 24:55.530]  You know, how do you meet?
[24:55.770 --> 24:58.730]  And that's actually how everyone meets for the most part.
[24:59.310 --> 25:03.370]  It's not necessarily something where everyone is going to meet at a mosque.
[25:03.510 --> 25:04.630]  Or everyone's going to meet at church.
[25:04.890 --> 25:07.890]  Or everyone's going to meet at a coffee shop.
[25:08.090 --> 25:09.090]  Everyone's going to be sort of different.
[25:09.650 --> 25:14.910]  And that's actually really good because it's hard to say, Okay, well, we're closing this down because it's full of radicals.
[25:15.030 --> 25:19.150]  You know, it's a lot more difficult if you're like, Well, it's Gary's house.
[25:19.590 --> 25:21.310]  And then we're going to go to this coffee shop.
[25:21.510 --> 25:23.970]  And then we're going to go over here and hang out in the park for a while.
[25:23.970 --> 25:29.890]  And so, yes, people do organize in mosques, but they also organize everywhere else.
[25:30.550 --> 25:31.150]  So, yeah.
[25:33.410 --> 25:33.890]  Hi.
[25:34.010 --> 25:41.250]  I was wondering how effective was the campaign of sending faxes to the Middle East?
[25:41.350 --> 25:48.550]  I mean, I remember that it was like a campaign called Paper Storm or something like that by Anonymous.
[25:48.730 --> 25:53.730]  And they were sending faxes to, you know, telecomics, dial-up accounts, stuff like that.
[25:54.210 --> 25:59.750]  And I was wondering if you had information about how effective was that because they were like bombing faxes, you know, from the U.S.
[26:01.350 --> 26:05.330]  Well, I can't speak to the Anonymous version, but...
[26:06.950 --> 26:07.490]  Excuse me.
[26:07.890 --> 26:09.690]  But the telecomics version was highly effective.
[26:09.690 --> 26:18.950]  And it was just that it wasn't necessarily that they were exclusively using it to sort of, you know, evangelize and advocate for specific, you know, positions on the revolution.
[26:18.950 --> 26:22.730]  It was that they were also sending stuff like, hey, if you want to get on the Internet, this is how.
[26:23.730 --> 26:26.610]  Hey, if you have tear gas, this is how you treat that.
[26:26.730 --> 26:28.210]  And if you have pepper spray, this is how you treat that.
[26:28.510 --> 26:39.230]  So it meant that the pieces of paper that would come through, or excuse me, the information that would be printed out on the pieces of paper, that you would maybe carry it around with you more because it tells you how to do first aid and things like that.
[26:39.390 --> 26:41.810]  And so maybe that helps the information get distributed more.
[26:42.230 --> 26:44.270]  But also they didn't really make a pest of themselves.
[26:44.590 --> 26:47.470]  They didn't, they weren't, you know, black faxing people just endlessly.
[26:47.770 --> 26:50.910]  They sent, you know, one, and then hopefully that information got out.
[26:50.990 --> 26:52.870]  So I would actually say that that was highly effective.
[26:53.290 --> 26:55.710]  And I think telecomics is completely amazing.
[26:56.450 --> 26:58.410]  I have a second question.
[26:58.570 --> 26:58.730]  Cool.
[27:00.810 --> 27:21.710]  I was wondering if, like, there could be some, like, counterintelligence, you know, campaigns to make these efforts to be somehow nullified, you know, like making it, making the population insecure or...
[27:24.230 --> 27:26.090]  Let's see, how to put this?
[27:28.430 --> 27:45.830]  To make them not trust, you know, the help that they're getting, you know, by, you know, getting infiltrated or even making us work for them, you know, covertly, you know, making us think that we're actually helping, but, you know, making us help them instead.
[27:45.970 --> 27:48.770]  I don't know if you're getting where I'm trying to get.
[27:49.190 --> 28:00.650]  Well, I mean, I think that, you know, sort of, you know, if I just want to repeat your question back is that, you know, the effects of sort of making people distrust the others around them and making it more difficult to organize.
[28:02.190 --> 28:08.530]  Yes, and also making us believe that we are helping the good guys when actually we are helping the bad guys.
[28:08.970 --> 28:19.150]  I think that it's, that it's, that it's difficult to sort of say that, that I don't think that it's as possible for people that are totally outside this area to be helping the bad guys.
[28:20.210 --> 28:24.590]  Your mileage may vary depending on your opinion as who's good, who's bad, things like that.
[28:24.590 --> 28:35.710]  But I think that if you have, if you have free access to information, you're much more capable of making a decision as to which side of this issue are you on, which side of this issue do I want to support.
[28:36.530 --> 28:54.730]  But I think it's very possible for a government or an organization to actually, you know, generate a lot of distrust, start false rumors, insert people who are just totally not, who are clearly not with it in an attempt to sort of breed this distrustful environment and make it more difficult to organize.
[28:54.730 --> 28:57.030]  And I think that's actually extremely effective.
[28:57.990 --> 29:14.990]  But I think that, that just the, the sheer number of people who were for the revolution and against various governments is the reason why Tunisia, Egypt, and Libya, and probably Syria, are having a new government, basically.
[29:15.950 --> 29:16.550]  Thank you.
[29:19.710 --> 29:21.950]  Shukran Jazeelan for the presentation.
[29:22.290 --> 29:23.210]  Thank you very much.
[29:23.470 --> 29:23.930]  Oh, thanks.
[29:23.930 --> 29:45.610]  And actually, the fellow before me touched upon what, what I was going to bring up, that looking from the Iran election protests on Internet and other media and Egyptian situation and such, one of the challenges been when you set up, for example, a proxy,
[29:45.910 --> 29:52.430]  how do you get the word out, but not so widely that the government counters it and takes it down.
[29:53.610 --> 29:56.390]  So, some, BBS would be a good example.
[29:56.590 --> 29:56.650]  Yeah.
[29:56.650 --> 30:00.330]  If you get the number out too widely, guess what happens to that number?
[30:00.490 --> 30:01.310]  It's going to get shut down.
[30:01.530 --> 30:01.670]  Beep!
[30:01.950 --> 30:02.310]  Exactly.
[30:02.870 --> 30:02.970]  Yes.
[30:03.050 --> 30:03.150]  Yes.
[30:04.130 --> 30:10.910]  So, there's, it's almost ecological, you know, with a predator and prey and then how you survive in that environment.
[30:10.910 --> 30:15.870]  And it's very fascinating because people manage through these adversities.
[30:16.150 --> 30:20.070]  Do you have any insights to, you know, on this?
[30:20.250 --> 30:20.390]  Yeah.
[30:20.390 --> 30:28.670]  You know, I think that that's a really insightful comparison is that it's constantly this predator and prey situation where you're, you know, you're having to stay one step ahead of them.
[30:28.670 --> 30:32.230]  You know, you're always going to have to have more proxies on hand than they can block.
[30:32.470 --> 30:34.930]  And sometimes they'll block them all and you have to just get more really fast.
[30:36.150 --> 30:37.750]  And getting the word out really fast.
[30:37.930 --> 30:50.130]  With the BBS, yeah, that's absolutely true is that, you know, if you have, even if you allocate, you know, 10 phone numbers to running this BBS and synchronizing them all, you know, the telephone service can just shut you off in like 15 minutes.
[30:51.630 --> 30:58.170]  So that's one situation, or that's, that's one reason why mesh networks have so much promise is because they can still locate you.
[30:58.490 --> 31:04.390]  But it is technologically a little bit more difficult and it takes a little bit longer and you can move around a lot more because you're wireless.
[31:05.050 --> 31:08.110]  It's also more prone to failure and it's less reliable than a BBS.
[31:08.390 --> 31:11.430]  So you kind of, yeah, you really got to like, you really got to weigh it.
[31:12.630 --> 31:16.810]  But, yeah, I mean, I think that, I think that it's, it's, it's, that's always going to be the case.
[31:16.810 --> 31:25.650]  And it's the case with censorship circumventing technologies like Tor is that they're constantly having to, like right now, Tor is totally blocked in China.
[31:25.990 --> 31:27.890]  It's almost impossible for anyone to get through.
[31:28.030 --> 31:30.950]  And they're constantly, you know, working at this and working at this, working at this.
[31:32.370 --> 31:36.730]  And, you know, there are a lot of big wins in that, but it does take a lot of time and it's not guaranteed.
[31:37.470 --> 31:37.530]  So.
[31:40.110 --> 31:42.930]  Hi, I'm actually with Tell Comics and I just want to thank, hi.
[31:43.130 --> 31:46.090]  Yeah, just thank you for your kind words and also your perspective.
[31:46.090 --> 31:48.150]  It's just kind of really nice to get something like, yeah.
[31:48.990 --> 31:49.070]  Thanks.
[31:49.070 --> 31:50.970]  And so I just actually wanted to, about the modem.
[31:51.130 --> 31:55.930]  So those worked really well in Egypt because 60% of the country was already on dial-up before the revolution.
[31:56.090 --> 31:56.470]  Very nice.
[31:56.670 --> 31:56.870]  Yeah.
[31:57.350 --> 32:01.270]  In Libya, we ran those same lines and they got blocked by the state telco in four days.
[32:01.690 --> 32:05.710]  In Syria, the Syrians won't use them at all because all the phone lines are tapped.
[32:05.910 --> 32:06.030]  Yeah.
[32:06.250 --> 32:13.930]  And so I just wonder if you could comment on kind of the diversity, you know, like that each country is different and kind of like the need for diversity of tactics.
[32:15.030 --> 32:18.210]  Well, I think you pretty much hit the nail on the head is that every country is different.
[32:18.370 --> 32:22.610]  Every country, all of these countries are of various sizes, various population levels.
[32:23.590 --> 32:28.890]  And the big key, I think, is diversity of surveillance before the revolution.
[32:30.490 --> 32:32.530]  You know, in Egypt, yeah, people got tapped.
[32:33.010 --> 32:40.970]  People would get, you know, rounded up and beaten, you know, and there was, you know, harsh restriction on political speech, which is a huge reason why there was a revolution in the first place.
[32:42.710 --> 32:47.510]  But I think that it was a lot more difficult because it wasn't quite as pervasive as Syrian.
[32:48.230 --> 32:52.510]  I don't think that they quite had the same technological chops as Syria did.
[32:52.730 --> 32:55.270]  And I suspecting that Syria sort of saw this coming.
[32:55.550 --> 32:58.330]  And they do seem like they were a bit more authoritarian beforehand.
[32:59.410 --> 33:03.250]  And we're really wanting a tight, tight, tight control on political speech.
[33:05.450 --> 33:14.490]  And I mean, really, that's that's all I can really say about it is that all these countries, you know, it's easy, you know, living in America to sort of see the Middle East as this one just nebulous blob somewhere.
[33:15.670 --> 33:17.290]  But it's super diverse.
[33:17.710 --> 33:18.930]  It's just incredibly diverse.
[33:19.210 --> 33:23.450]  It's like in Lebanon, there's a huge percentage of people who are Christian.
[33:23.650 --> 33:24.590]  There are jews that live there.
[33:24.710 --> 33:25.490]  There are Muslims that live there.
[33:25.550 --> 33:26.430]  There are atheists that live there.
[33:26.830 --> 33:28.670]  There are people of other religions that live there.
[33:29.890 --> 33:33.530]  But in America, it's sort of you have this idea of they all look this way.
[33:33.850 --> 33:34.750]  Their religion is this way.
[33:34.830 --> 33:35.790]  They all have this one perspective.
[33:36.070 --> 33:37.710]  And that just doesn't doesn't mesh well.
[33:37.830 --> 33:39.790]  They're totally different political systems.
[33:40.010 --> 33:44.470]  And even within themselves, there are massive diversities that impact every aspect of it.
[33:45.450 --> 33:50.090]  So I hate to sort of paint this as being in the Middle East, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah happens.
[33:50.250 --> 33:53.150]  So I try to point out that it's this country versus other countries.
[33:53.750 --> 33:54.970]  And how they sort of...
[33:54.970 --> 33:57.650]  How it works, how it doesn't work, and to the best I can.
[33:57.850 --> 33:59.330]  So, thanks.
[34:00.030 --> 34:02.850]  Any more questions, queries, quits, tomatoes?
[34:05.830 --> 34:07.650]  Actually, can you... because I can't hear you.
[34:07.910 --> 34:08.210]  Sorry.
[34:09.550 --> 34:17.490]  Do you know the effectiveness of off-proxy, the new project of Tor trying to make encrypted traffic look not encrypted?
[34:18.790 --> 34:26.550]  From what I've heard, which is admittedly like third-hand at this point, it actually seems to work really well, but it doesn't seem to work well in China.
[34:27.290 --> 34:31.670]  I think that there's something else going on with China, but they're just... it's very difficult.
[34:31.910 --> 34:41.530]  But I think that it depends on whether you're just trying to block encrypted traffic, you know, writ large, which China does not, or whether you're specifically looking for stuff that looks like Tor.
[34:42.190 --> 34:46.810]  And I think that... I think that eventually they're going to wind up, you know, catching up with China and being like, yeah, take that.
[34:47.190 --> 34:47.510]  So...
[34:47.510 --> 34:47.730]  Right.
[34:47.890 --> 34:54.470]  But I think that right now it works really well in Iran, from what I hear, and everyone seems very, very happy about it, which I take as a really good sign.
[34:59.100 --> 34:59.810]  Any more questions?
[35:03.750 --> 35:07.300]  Okay, someone's coming up to the mic, so I'm not going to like, you know, dive, dive, dive.
[35:11.360 --> 35:15.300]  Any thoughts on how you get out information about how information is getting out?
[35:15.570 --> 35:17.940]  This seems to be a chicken-egg problem with most of this.
[35:18.190 --> 35:20.190]  It's a really tricky problem.
[35:20.690 --> 35:33.980]  I ran a project for two and a half years, almost two and a half years, dealing with trans people in the military, and a lot of it was, you know, if you're trans and you're in the military, well, you're out of the military.
[35:33.980 --> 35:36.000]  And that's 100% of the issue.
[35:37.410 --> 35:40.520]  So, the thing is, is that, you know, they were, you know, super censored.
[35:40.630 --> 35:42.110]  They couldn't Google about stuff because...
[35:42.110 --> 35:47.300]  And then they can't Google about how do they Google without, you know, people being aware that they're Googling.
[35:47.500 --> 35:50.190]  So, it's sort of this weird, circuitous issue.
[35:51.390 --> 36:03.420]  And I just, I don't know that there's a real, you know, other than direct word of mouth workshops, talking to people, spreading stuff into forums that you know are receptive and not like spamming people or anything.
[36:04.280 --> 36:09.460]  And just making this sort of information as ubiquitous as possible to people that you think might need it.
[36:09.760 --> 36:12.570]  I think that's really the only way that you can get this stuff out.
[36:13.570 --> 36:14.020]  Hello.
[36:14.550 --> 36:14.780]  Hello.
[36:15.040 --> 36:22.040]  I wondered if you could go a bit more into how things like telecomics are seen by the locals that they're helping.
[36:22.170 --> 36:26.840]  Like, is there a touch of the, like, sort of, yay, here come the foreigners to help us?
[36:26.840 --> 36:28.860]  Or, oh my God, what are these foreigners doing here?
[36:28.940 --> 36:30.360]  Why do they think they can help us?
[36:30.420 --> 36:31.190]  Why can't we do it?
[36:31.500 --> 36:32.050]  Type of thing.
[36:32.440 --> 36:35.900]  Everything is second-hand for me, but it seems like it's actually sort of both.
[36:36.520 --> 36:40.320]  You know, because some people were just sort of, in Egypt, were just sort of continuing to live their lives.
[36:40.400 --> 36:42.940]  And they're like, yeah, this is totally sort of f*cking up our shit.
[36:42.980 --> 36:45.460]  We wish that the, you know, the revolution, things weren't that bad before.
[36:45.610 --> 36:48.840]  You know, we wish that the revolution would end and, you know, I could get my customers back.
[36:48.840 --> 36:50.500]  And, you know, life would go back to normal.
[36:50.690 --> 36:52.420]  And some people really like that comfort.
[36:52.690 --> 36:59.050]  They really want comfort more than an overall huge change that will make their lives better, possibly.
[37:01.650 --> 37:03.380]  But, you know, honestly, I think that it's both.
[37:03.520 --> 37:10.500]  I think that there are people who are just like, you know, who are these people and why are they injecting themselves into our business when it's all us?
[37:10.840 --> 37:12.860]  And we're the ones that should be dealing with Egyptian...
[37:12.860 --> 37:16.670]  In Egypt, we're the ones that should be dealing with, you know, Egyptian politics.
[37:19.090 --> 37:23.110]  I think that it's honestly going to be person by person by person, who likes, who dislikes.
[37:23.550 --> 37:27.900]  So that's all I can really pontificate on that specific point, because I'm not Middle Eastern.
[37:28.480 --> 37:29.260]  I'm not from there.
[37:34.720 --> 37:35.080]  Hmm.
[37:36.120 --> 37:36.860]  Any more questions?
[37:38.820 --> 37:39.180]  Okay.
[37:40.300 --> 37:43.820]  Then, thank you all for coming out at this horrible, horrible, god-awful time of the morning.
[37:43.820 --> 37:47.860]  And if you have any questions, my...
[37:50.260 --> 37:56.120]  You can actually contact me on Twitter, or if you go to that web address, my contact information will be up there.
[37:56.720 --> 37:57.380]  And thanks.
[38:04.790 --> 38:05.890]  Hi, where's my mouse?