[00:36.720 --> 00:38.380]  Those lights are too bright.
[00:38.680 --> 00:40.060]  They need to be turned down.
[00:41.000 --> 00:42.280]  Wow, that's really bright.
[00:45.780 --> 00:50.360]  Can we have less stage light and more room light?
[00:51.120 --> 00:52.620]  This is a community thing.
[00:52.780 --> 00:54.120]  We want to be able to see you people.
[00:55.220 --> 00:57.940]  Can you bring those down a little bit?
[00:58.480 --> 00:59.740]  Bring the room light up!
[01:00.040 --> 01:00.860]  Yeah, I'll go back there.
[01:00.880 --> 01:04.560]  Could we have a little less stage light and more room light?
[01:04.560 --> 01:06.200]  Thank you very much.
[01:09.760 --> 01:11.420]  It's not pronounced by Americans.
[01:11.780 --> 01:11.860]  Okay.
[01:12.520 --> 01:13.360]  Say, avoid it.
[01:14.060 --> 01:17.120]  I just want to butcher your name.
[01:17.600 --> 01:18.080]  Sorry?
[01:18.240 --> 01:19.300]  I don't want to butcher your name.
[01:20.440 --> 01:20.540]  No, no, no.
[01:20.560 --> 01:21.380]  It's pronounced home.
[01:22.020 --> 01:22.500]  Home?
[01:23.240 --> 01:23.720]  Okay.
[01:24.140 --> 01:24.380]  Home?
[01:25.360 --> 01:25.940]  No, no, no.
[01:27.060 --> 01:29.080]  You're going to butcher it anyway, so do whatever.
[01:29.260 --> 01:30.820]  I know, but I would like to at least attempt to.
[01:31.220 --> 01:31.780]  No, no, no.
[01:32.120 --> 01:32.900]  Just whatever.
[01:34.340 --> 01:36.140]  I got attached to my last name.
[01:36.300 --> 01:36.620]  Okay.
[01:36.840 --> 01:43.780]  I think we're going to get started.
[01:45.880 --> 01:46.360]  Sorry.
[01:48.400 --> 01:49.560]  Sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt.
[01:50.000 --> 01:50.480]  No problem.
[01:50.900 --> 01:50.980]  Yeah.
[01:54.040 --> 01:55.660]  All right, we're going to go ahead and get started.
[01:57.240 --> 02:05.240]  The name of this panel is Europe Has Hackers 2 with number 135, number 47, and number 117.
[02:06.240 --> 02:18.100]  also known as McFly, in the middle, Frank Rieger, and Rop, who has a last name that is amazing and unpronounceable.
[02:19.080 --> 02:25.680]  If you have never been to any of the hacker conventions over in Europe and in the Netherlands and Germany, they are phenomenal.
[02:26.880 --> 02:31.600]  Bernie S dragged me to a couple, and they were amazing experiences.
[02:32.400 --> 02:42.960]  So, the next time another one gets organized over there, spend the money and go, because it's an incredible experience to hang out with hackers from all over the world on the other side of the pond.
[02:43.460 --> 02:44.920]  And the beer is really good, too.
[02:46.680 --> 02:48.400]  This is Europe Has Hackers 2.
[02:54.750 --> 02:55.230]  Hello.
[02:55.770 --> 03:05.150]  First, I'd like to say thank you that you appeared in here, and I'm interested in the European hacker scene to hear something from that.
[03:06.170 --> 03:09.830]  First of all, who from the audience is from America?
[03:12.290 --> 03:14.850]  And who from them has been in Europe?
[03:16.270 --> 03:20.770]  So, I think we have about half of the people from America have already been in Europe?
[03:22.110 --> 03:22.750]  Okay.
[03:24.690 --> 03:46.970]  So, the main thing is that we want to show it mainly on the examples of the Netherlands hacker scene, which Rob will take over, and the Germans from the German-speaking countries, being Germany, Austria, and Switzerland, what Frank and I will do.
[03:48.210 --> 03:53.110]  After that, we'll have about a bigger thing and discussion.
[03:54.550 --> 04:01.210]  Just to explain it, I had a talk at Notacon about three months ago with B9.
[04:01.210 --> 04:13.590]  And we found out that very many Americans have heard lots of Americans of the European hacker scene, and really don't know that much about it.
[04:14.310 --> 04:21.230]  So, as we expect to be very many questions, we'll plan to have about 30 minutes of discussion.
[04:26.690 --> 04:30.370]  So, to introduce ourselves, let's start with Frank.
[04:30.530 --> 04:31.270]  We'll start with Frank.
[04:32.490 --> 04:36.330]  Yeah, I've been with the CCC, I don't know, for many years or now.
[04:37.230 --> 04:56.850]  My main task there for quite a while was being speaker there, organizing lots of things, especially all press activities, or activities to show certain flaws, raise awareness for security, for privacy issues, stuff like that.
[04:56.850 --> 05:00.890]  So, that was the main official task internally.
[05:01.090 --> 05:04.370]  Of course, it was a lot of organization and getting people together.
[05:04.810 --> 05:15.310]  So, the main difference that I perceive between the U.S. and Europe is that there is much more organizational structure in there.
[05:15.450 --> 05:22.450]  So, we have a lot of internal work that is just caring for our organization structure.
[05:22.450 --> 05:35.130]  The KS Computer Club is an officially registered association, a Verein in Deutsch, which means that we have a legal framework that works inside the law and is not commercial.
[05:35.450 --> 05:39.990]  So, it's not a commercial-oriented thing, but more like a foundation.
[05:40.370 --> 05:42.210]  So, there is no real analogy in the U.S. for that.
[05:43.130 --> 05:47.090]  So, it takes up a lot of work and also binds a lot of energy.
[05:47.270 --> 05:53.730]  On the other hand, it gives us a lot more focus and a lot more resources and we need to do big things and big stuff.
[05:54.530 --> 06:03.430]  Then, when you always need to raise awareness inside your own organization, you can just have a mail to all the members.
[06:03.710 --> 06:20.550]  The KS Computer Club is currently, I think, roughly 2,000 registered members, which are the people that we can easily get via our mailing list and so on, that are also paying their duty monthly, more or less, for the association.
[06:21.390 --> 06:25.430]  So, there is also a very solid financial base for all kinds of activities.
[06:26.350 --> 06:29.430]  So, that is the rough framework.
[06:30.090 --> 06:46.990]  To give you an idea, usually the big KS Computer Club conferences, the Congress, which is taking place every year, this year for the 23rd time, gets around 3,000 people from a country that has only 80 million inhabitants.
[06:47.630 --> 06:59.170]  So, we have quite a sizable base that is relatively reliable to contact and that you can also use for lots of activities and a lot of creativity.
[06:59.910 --> 07:08.610]  We also have a very spread out, so we have, I don't know, you have to, the numbers, how many sub-things we have.
[07:08.810 --> 07:09.570]  Yeah, we have...
[07:10.090 --> 07:10.530]  Yeah.
[07:11.210 --> 07:14.670]  So, I just want to wrap that up quickly.
[07:14.830 --> 07:17.890]  So, we have structures down into all the major cities.
[07:18.670 --> 07:22.350]  So, there is always a local group that can do things locally.
[07:23.190 --> 07:26.790]  So, organizing that stuff was also part of my task then, so...
[07:30.590 --> 07:32.590]  I'm Rob, from Amsterdam.
[07:34.910 --> 07:42.730]  And I published a magazine in the late 80s and early 90s that in many ways was much like 2600 Magazine.
[07:44.730 --> 07:49.550]  It had a lot of humor and it used 2600 Magazine as one of its...
[07:49.550 --> 07:51.670]  This is really squealing.
[07:51.930 --> 07:53.710]  Can somebody turn it down a little bit?
[07:54.730 --> 08:07.110]  It used a lot of humor and it had 2600 Magazine as one of its inspirations, but it also inspired, it was inspired by the squatter magazines that were very strong in Holland in the 80s and late 70s even.
[08:09.410 --> 08:13.550]  Hack-Tic was a magazine for hackers and we never had a club.
[08:13.710 --> 08:16.130]  We never had official structures the way Germany had it.
[08:16.250 --> 08:18.650]  But a group of people formed around the magazine.
[08:18.890 --> 08:19.990]  We did meetings.
[08:20.210 --> 08:23.630]  We did a big meeting in 1989 which was very impressive.
[08:24.350 --> 08:27.550]  At least it was very impressive to Emmanuel because he's still talking about it.
[08:29.530 --> 08:35.250]  And it was sort of the first event that got people from Germany and America together.
[08:36.430 --> 08:39.930]  Historically, we've played that role in Amsterdam because people in Holland...
[08:39.930 --> 08:42.930]  We're a very small country so people speak their languages a little bit.
[08:43.130 --> 08:50.310]  So we've forged ties between countries as sort of the Dutch hacker scene.
[08:50.310 --> 08:57.690]  Now these ties exist directly between people from Chaos and people from 2600 and other people from hacker scenes all over the world.
[08:57.870 --> 09:00.850]  But we've sort of played that role historically in the early 90s.
[09:03.150 --> 09:07.470]  From there on out, the Dutch hackers have gone on to organize events.
[09:07.470 --> 09:13.730]  We've done the first outdoor conference in 93, basically bringing hackers together in tents.
[09:13.910 --> 09:20.030]  I was sort of tired of the image of hackers as kids with very thick glasses sitting in basements or attics.
[09:20.030 --> 09:30.670]  And we basically blew people's minds because we had the TV news covering hackers as kids with wires between their teeth climbing trees with tie wraps.
[09:33.130 --> 09:37.290]  So that was an interesting play on people's brains.
[09:38.590 --> 09:43.530]  We've done major events every four years basically because they're very intense.
[09:44.570 --> 09:46.250]  And intense also.
[09:48.190 --> 09:58.790]  And we've done these events to show who we were, to show that people need not be afraid of hackers and also to celebrate what we felt was hacker culture.
[09:59.770 --> 10:04.810]  I don't think we need to go into that anymore because it's very much the same thing that it is here.
[10:04.810 --> 10:12.050]  It's about sharing, it's about openness, it's about telling people what we're about.
[10:14.190 --> 10:15.510]  Is there anything more web?
[10:15.730 --> 10:21.150]  In Holland, the hacker community is very much tied to the upcoming Internet.
[10:22.630 --> 10:28.270]  XS4ALL, the ISP that I helped found, had its roots very much into the hacker community.
[10:29.030 --> 10:33.170]  XS4ALL, for All was very much a hacker company.
[10:34.010 --> 10:34.770]  It grew out.
[10:34.930 --> 10:39.190]  Its first name was Hack-Tic Network, which came out of the magazine.
[10:40.570 --> 10:47.190]  And so a lot of the people that were involved with the early Internet were also the people that hung around in the hacker scene in Holland.
[10:49.010 --> 10:52.710]  I guess, yeah, that sort of wraps it up for me.
[10:53.670 --> 10:55.190]  Yeah, well, I'm MacFly.
[10:55.370 --> 10:57.510]  I'm doing some hacker radio.
[10:57.770 --> 11:00.810]  I'm not that old as those guys left on the right side of me.
[11:01.010 --> 11:05.750]  I'm doing a bit of hacker radio and I'm participating in the university hacking contest.
[11:06.410 --> 11:10.650]  More successful than every other American team around here.
[11:10.730 --> 11:12.830]  Are there Americans from participating in there?
[11:14.050 --> 11:14.550]  Yeah.
[11:15.090 --> 11:20.870]  The Europeans got quite successful in the hacking contests and, well, we're having good fun with that.
[11:22.270 --> 11:27.330]  I'm around CCC for also, well, I think more than 10 years now.
[11:28.570 --> 11:34.930]  And, yeah, well, I got a contact to America on the 22C3.
[11:34.930 --> 11:39.670]  I met some Americans who told me that America is not that bad after all.
[11:42.730 --> 11:45.790]  And they invited me to come over and I did.
[11:46.010 --> 11:49.450]  And, well, I'm back here again, so I guess I like it.
[11:50.870 --> 11:54.470]  And, yeah, well, we'll tell a bit of the...
[11:55.550 --> 12:04.370]  We'll give you a slight impression of the European hacker scene then with Rob from the Netherlands side and Frank from the German-speaking side.
[12:05.050 --> 12:08.450]  We'll talk mainly about the CCC from the German-speaking side.
[12:08.610 --> 12:14.590]  But we should mention the other group you may be heard of like THC, Phenoelite and Teso.
[12:14.830 --> 12:18.150]  Where Teso is at the moment as a state of sleeping, I think.
[12:19.310 --> 12:20.070]  Yes, sir.
[12:21.030 --> 12:24.190]  What probably is necessary to explain is...
[12:25.890 --> 12:28.250]  CCC is the largest group in Europe.
[12:28.930 --> 12:36.550]  But it has always this, for a reason or not, this image of being more or less political group.
[12:37.790 --> 12:51.210]  not so much into what people tell hardcore technical hacking, or at least not on the outside, but being more focused group to bring issues to the society.
[12:51.210 --> 13:06.870]  So we have been always very strong in lobbying and getting issues out into politics to make our point on the political agenda if it fits our range of topics.
[13:07.590 --> 13:14.630]  Which means that we, for instance, regularly get invited to hearings in the parliament when there are technology topics on...
[13:15.410 --> 13:25.110]  We are getting regularly invited when it comes to political parties wanting to form their opinions and need some expert advice on this topic or that.
[13:26.050 --> 13:40.910]  On the other hand, that also means that there are people from the, let's say, hardcore technical hacker scene that are not feeling really at home at the CCC structure because they feel it's too organized, too much energy going into organizational issues,
[13:41.030 --> 13:41.510]  stuff like that.
[13:41.510 --> 13:47.530]  And so that's why there are quite a number of more or less technical-oriented hacker crews.
[13:48.150 --> 13:55.230]  They are all coming to the Congress to basically recognizing the ability of the CCC to pull up big events.
[13:55.490 --> 14:02.430]  And they feel very much at home there, but they are not very much part of the structure of ongoing activities.
[14:03.070 --> 14:10.910]  So the CCC sees its role always on the boundary between technology and society.
[14:11.510 --> 14:24.070]  So we have also people there that have no clue about hacking at all, but are very much part of the hacker mindset when it comes to political issues like copyright, like privacy issues, RFID, and so on.
[14:24.250 --> 14:43.550]  And they always find the people there that have the technical talent to find out what is really going on, what kind of stuff is going on behind the surface, to produce hacks that are able to change things and make a point that cannot be ignored in the media.
[14:43.550 --> 14:50.650]  So for that reason, the CCC is not the only European hacker group.
[14:51.190 --> 14:52.250]  It cannot be.
[14:52.270 --> 14:54.450]  It is mainly focused on the German-speaking countries.
[14:54.650 --> 15:01.230]  But we have a very living and interesting relationship to a lot of groups.
[15:01.990 --> 15:08.430]  also in, for instance, the Spanish people, Hispahak, Portugal, the Polish hacker groups and so on.
[15:08.490 --> 15:11.230]  There is always lots of sex change and so on.
[15:11.310 --> 15:19.230]  So it is not a huge, humongous language space like in the U.S., but Europe is very much more fractioned.
[15:19.230 --> 15:24.690]  So we have the German language space, which is about 100 million people, and from there it goes downwards.
[15:25.250 --> 15:31.530]  There are numbers of people, and you actually cannot really build up issues on a European base so far.
[15:31.690 --> 15:33.650]  So we have not been able to do that yet.
[15:33.970 --> 15:47.550]  So there have been lots of efforts to doing, for instance, lobbying in Europe, to get topics onto European agenda or issue or statements there, but that is proving really, really difficult.
[15:47.550 --> 15:55.310]  So that is something that is also part of the culture is always this looming European threat.
[15:55.550 --> 16:01.170]  So when the European Parliament decides onto something, then it is getting really difficult to make our voice heard there.
[16:01.370 --> 16:08.670]  It is also very difficult for any other issue group, but we are at the moment most efficient at the national level.
[16:09.870 --> 16:19.650]  So for that reason, the CCC is always in some sort of internal strife about this topic or that, but it is part of the culture.
[16:19.910 --> 16:20.330]  It should not be.
[16:20.470 --> 16:27.530]  So if you are coming to the Congress, for instance, we will hear heated discussions about this topic or that, but it is just part of the culture.
[16:27.530 --> 16:32.790]  So you do not need to worry that we are splitting apart or things are falling apart or whatever.
[16:32.950 --> 16:35.930]  It is just that we have a very heated culture of discussing topics internally.
[16:37.470 --> 16:42.770]  So the CCC has a very long and colorful history.
[16:43.050 --> 16:47.410]  So in the 80s there has been the Pentagon hack and stuff like that.
[16:48.570 --> 16:50.290]  Meanwhile, we have settled a bit more.
[16:50.430 --> 16:51.670]  People are getting older, of course.
[16:51.670 --> 16:55.910]  Younger people are coming in and having different styles, different topics.
[16:58.050 --> 17:05.830]  But what we have preserved is a culture of very open discussion and very open and spontaneous setting up of things.
[17:06.030 --> 17:14.750]  So for instance, what McFly has mentioned, the BlinkLight project that grew out of the Berlin CCC was just an idea.
[17:15.110 --> 17:19.570]  So somebody said, okay, what would it be if we had a building as a display?
[17:19.570 --> 17:22.450]  So using each single window as a pixel.
[17:23.750 --> 17:25.750]  So why not do that?
[17:25.990 --> 17:32.070]  And then people just sat down and soldered the stuff together and made the first prototype work in a matter of two weeks.
[17:32.430 --> 17:36.830]  After somebody got a building organized that was not used at the moment.
[17:37.190 --> 17:40.570]  So four weeks later we had a building size display.
[17:41.430 --> 17:47.050]  So this is the kind of things that just happened in CCC because lots of people are there, lots of resources are there.
[17:47.050 --> 17:54.170]  The communication path is very short and you can do lots of stuff just because there is an idea to do that.
[17:55.090 --> 17:59.690]  So that is also the strength of the local groups because local groups can always initiate an activity.
[17:59.930 --> 18:07.450]  For instance, we have, meanwhile, I think nine different local meetings where people organize two-day events or three-day events.
[18:07.450 --> 18:14.210]  having their own small schedule setting up, inviting speakers from all over CCC and outside.
[18:14.990 --> 18:21.570]  So setting up events like this, like the HOPE, but much smaller in scale, more locally focused.
[18:22.630 --> 18:30.310]  But since the structure is there, the effort to get such things going is much lower than if they needed to start from scratch.
[18:30.310 --> 18:34.810]  So that is one of the real strengths of the CCC in that respect.
[18:35.770 --> 18:43.070]  So, of course, as Rob said, we have been, until, I don't know, two years or three years ago, very much German focused.
[18:43.370 --> 18:51.230]  So the Chaos Congress was not very inviting to international guests because most of the talks were simply in German.
[18:51.850 --> 18:58.450]  We have, we have our publication, that is the Datenschleuder, which I don't dare to translate.
[19:00.050 --> 19:06.030]  It is, as you see, the 2600 magazine is very similar in size and content.
[19:06.950 --> 19:09.450]  And it is currently also mainly German.
[19:09.930 --> 19:27.030]  But there is now a shift, thanks to the Dutch hackers, that we go to much more international, making a lot more English content in there, inviting lots of more English speakers, so that we have approximately 50% of the content under Congress is in English.
[19:28.630 --> 19:33.850]  We try to get as much good English content as possible on there.
[19:34.790 --> 19:41.170]  So meanwhile, the CCC has become much more international than it has been three or four years ago, which is a good thing, I think.
[19:41.170 --> 19:45.850]  Maybe, maybe it's good just to give people a reference, a perspective.
[19:47.450 --> 20:01.130]  One of the main differences I see between the U.S. hacker community and the European hacker community is that pockets of the European hacker culture or hacker community have really managed to create a really large amount of resources for themselves.
[20:01.830 --> 20:06.250]  The German Chaos Computer Club, any major city has clubhouses.
[20:06.250 --> 20:14.530]  There is events being organized, there's links with universities, there's links with politicians, lobbying is happening.
[20:14.770 --> 20:15.730]  So there's...
[20:15.730 --> 20:34.060]  Whether it's resources in terms of contacts with press, whether it's resources in terms of access to politics, resources in terms of just raw money, sponsorship deals, the Germans actually got paid by the...
[20:34.610 --> 20:36.370]  some national...
[20:36.370 --> 20:38.430]  some national...
[20:38.990 --> 20:41.250]  So it was the youth culture...
[20:41.250 --> 20:45.690]  The youth culture ministry actually pays them to put on a major event in the middle of Berlin.
[20:46.690 --> 20:51.110]  So you basically get to organize a freaky hacker event and the government pays you for it.
[20:52.990 --> 21:01.890]  We've, in Holland, set up hacker villages where thousands of people basically live in tents and there's huge infrastructure set up.
[21:01.990 --> 21:03.630]  We generate a megawatt of electricity.
[21:05.470 --> 21:14.490]  There's 80 toilets, water flushed, there's showers, there's main tents much larger than this room.
[21:16.210 --> 21:18.510]  Amazing facilities that we get to set up.
[21:18.510 --> 21:25.870]  We had a real money budget for that one, made out of sponsorship and all sorts of crazy deals that we put together.
[21:26.150 --> 21:28.630]  The real money budget for that was like $800,000.
[21:29.310 --> 21:30.470]  Large amounts of money.
[21:30.870 --> 21:41.290]  The amount of access we have to crazy facilities that I wouldn't have dreamed of when I was 20, 21 doing my first things is really something.
[21:41.550 --> 21:42.250]  It's really amazing.
[21:42.250 --> 21:47.710]  To put this in a scale, a nerd usually doesn't understand.
[21:48.710 --> 21:51.830]  We got Internet access at the Congress for free.
[21:52.090 --> 21:53.470]  Usually it's sponsored mainly.
[21:54.110 --> 22:08.370]  And on the last Congress we had a bandwidth of 16 gigabit Internet and a slash 16 in IP addresses which, well, makes just an interesting Internet because it's bigger than Africa.
[22:08.930 --> 22:15.490]  There was no point in having it because nobody ever used more than a gigabit, I think.
[22:16.010 --> 22:17.150]  It was never saturated, yeah.
[22:17.870 --> 22:31.070]  As I see, the main difference culturally is that the hacker culture, at least in Germany and I think also in large parts of the Netherlands, has a very positive image in society.
[22:31.070 --> 22:34.310]  So, we are not the evil guys.
[22:35.010 --> 22:37.710]  And we strive hard to maintain it that way.
[22:38.330 --> 22:50.950]  So, it is not always easy and also cost your street credibility with their more technical oriented other hacker groups that really like their bad guy image.
[22:50.950 --> 23:00.910]  But what we managed to do was preserving a certain acceptance in society for hacker culture.
[23:01.210 --> 23:06.390]  So, it means that we are not under threat from police.
[23:06.650 --> 23:10.850]  We are not under threat from somebody just deciding to wipe us out.
[23:10.850 --> 23:22.270]  So, there has, in the last ten years, never been a point where we really needed to fear that the society or the state would turn against us.
[23:22.750 --> 23:25.450]  But we always managed to keep our distance.
[23:25.710 --> 23:33.970]  So, we are, despite being paid for by some ministry to set up an hacker village at an official youth event, we did our thing there.
[23:33.970 --> 23:36.210]  It was not like they had any influence on what we were doing.
[23:36.490 --> 23:38.770]  So, probably they will never do it again with us.
[23:38.930 --> 23:47.710]  Because one of our guys really spoke up on the main event there and told them the truth about what is going on in society.
[23:50.190 --> 23:58.710]  But there is really the difference that people are not really going to jail for being a hacker in Europe.
[23:58.710 --> 24:04.190]  So, they are going to jail if they get caught, of course, as everybody else does.
[24:04.670 --> 24:11.330]  But there is no threat in the meaning of they getting on to us because we are hackers.
[24:12.030 --> 24:13.630]  So, this simply does not happen.
[24:13.990 --> 24:20.570]  On the contrary, they are very much value or expertise on certain topics where they otherwise only get the industry bullshit.
[24:21.130 --> 24:27.990]  So, if they really need somebody to ask about RFID, they have only three groups to turn to.
[24:27.990 --> 24:30.770]  So, one is industry, which is not of much value.
[24:31.490 --> 24:32.390]  Two is academics.
[24:32.430 --> 24:35.450]  They also need the money from industry to continue their research.
[24:35.590 --> 24:37.890]  And so, we stay there as the independent third.
[24:38.090 --> 24:45.510]  So, somebody that you can ask for an opinion on a certain important technical topic and to get an honest answer.
[24:45.730 --> 24:47.870]  And that is what people really value in politics.
[24:50.210 --> 24:53.590]  For example, there had been an event called Hacker Bike.
[24:54.470 --> 24:56.610]  We do not have the Datenschleider here at the moment.
[24:57.390 --> 24:58.650]  To explain Hacker Bike.
[24:58.910 --> 25:05.490]  Hacker Bike is a service where you can rent a bike from the German National Railroad Company.
[25:05.770 --> 25:07.130]  They are just standing in the street.
[25:07.250 --> 25:08.250]  There is a number printed on.
[25:08.330 --> 25:10.050]  You call a number with your cellular phone.
[25:10.770 --> 25:12.770]  You get told a number.
[25:12.910 --> 25:14.690]  You just enter on the bike and you can drive.
[25:14.850 --> 25:17.730]  You get charged by credit card or whatever.
[25:19.990 --> 25:27.270]  So, the CEO of the German National Railroad said in an article that no one can hack those bikes.
[25:27.770 --> 25:31.250]  And some people thought, well, let's have a look.
[25:31.810 --> 25:41.150]  So, they mainly opened one of those bikes, re-engineered the code of the bike, built in your firmware, uploaded it.
[25:41.450 --> 25:46.570]  And, well, now you have a bike where you can drive for free when you enter the right numbers.
[25:46.570 --> 25:46.650]  Yes.
[25:47.410 --> 25:47.630]  Okay.
[25:48.190 --> 25:49.830]  I need to intervene here.
[25:50.930 --> 25:54.550]  It was the case that people did that and turned to us here.
[25:54.790 --> 25:57.930]  The Datenschleider is basically a magazine that we publish.
[25:58.670 --> 26:02.110]  And so, we get a lot of stuff submitted.
[26:02.110 --> 26:10.710]  So, for instance, like this hack where it was not an official CCC thingy, but we just got the thing submitted.
[26:12.490 --> 26:16.830]  And which kind of places it in the position to handle the fallout.
[26:18.270 --> 26:26.570]  Which has always been one of the main functions of the CCC is people doing more or less stupid stuff.
[26:27.790 --> 26:37.590]  And then come to us and say, yeah, we have here this thing like, we opened this credit card company and are now sitting on half a million credit card records.
[26:37.690 --> 26:38.670]  What shall we do with them?
[26:38.890 --> 26:49.710]  Or, we found out that, for instance, the networks of certain medical institutions are not really secure.
[26:51.570 --> 26:56.370]  But we are not really the people to call them because we fear that they will prosecute us.
[26:56.850 --> 26:58.150]  Could you handle this case?
[26:58.550 --> 27:00.090]  So, that was large.
[27:00.590 --> 27:03.890]  Could the people in the back of the room be a bit more silent, please?
[27:04.250 --> 27:04.650]  Thanks.
[27:06.730 --> 27:10.810]  So, we actually are going then there and saying, okay, we are a CCC.
[27:10.810 --> 27:15.130]  Somebody came to us and handed us this hot potato here.
[27:15.430 --> 27:19.090]  And we are currently juggling this hot potato and we would like to give it to you back.
[27:20.490 --> 27:27.790]  So, this is one of the main functions of the speaker structure of the CCC to handle cases like this.
[27:28.430 --> 27:33.990]  So far, we have been mostly successful because we are keeping our deals.
[27:33.990 --> 27:41.690]  Meaning, when we say, okay, we will give you a certain advanced timing before we publish.
[27:42.290 --> 27:43.610]  And then we keep our promises.
[27:44.710 --> 27:46.370]  Usually, it works out that way, okay.
[27:46.590 --> 27:52.910]  So, the corporation gets a bit more time to prepare their answer or fix the technical problem.
[27:53.150 --> 27:56.890]  And in return, the people who did the hack will not be prosecuted.
[27:57.150 --> 27:59.670]  So, that is the usual way of things.
[27:59.830 --> 28:00.670]  Sometimes, it goes wrong.
[28:00.830 --> 28:02.510]  Most of the time, it works out.
[28:02.510 --> 28:05.730]  So, that was also the case in that hacker bike thing.
[28:06.550 --> 28:17.290]  So, we got this hot potato into our lab and then made contact with the Deutsche Bahn and solved the problem more or less to everybody's satisfaction.
[28:18.930 --> 28:30.150]  In Holland, the case is a little different because our government is basically much more under American control and under the special interests that are controlling American politics as well.
[28:32.210 --> 28:37.170]  So, Germany, it's really to be seen what happens, I think, over the next two or three years.
[28:37.530 --> 28:43.390]  Whether the content industry gets its way, the way they've gotten it here, whether any of this can continue.
[28:43.590 --> 28:43.890]  Yeah.
[28:44.130 --> 28:44.930]  The way it has been.
[28:46.430 --> 28:57.670]  But Germany is really unique in the sense that Chaos Computer Club does have that position that they actually do sit in the middle between industry, government, and kids doing crazy stuff.
[28:57.670 --> 29:02.570]  And they have their sort of independent position where they can make really interesting phone calls.
[29:03.110 --> 29:15.650]  I've been witnessing calls where basically people from Chaos directly called people very high up in government or even intelligence and said, well, we have something here and we don't want to deal with it.
[29:15.790 --> 29:18.170]  And no consequences ever came from it.
[29:18.510 --> 29:21.290]  Nothing ever bad ever happened for many of these weird cases.
[29:23.090 --> 29:25.550]  So that's an amazing role that I hope can continue.
[29:25.750 --> 29:28.110]  And that's something we definitely do not have in Holland.
[29:28.470 --> 29:32.670]  We see a state in Holland that definitely wants to get rid of us.
[29:32.790 --> 29:36.210]  We see a state that is becoming increasingly more evil.
[29:37.270 --> 29:42.330]  When I did my last hacker convention in Holland, and it was really my last because I'm not doing any more.
[29:42.470 --> 29:46.190]  The next one is going to happen just over the border in Germany because I've had it with that crap.
[29:48.750 --> 29:53.770]  But when I did the last hacker convention in Holland, they sent... I think it was...
[29:53.770 --> 29:58.630]  They wanted 100 tickets, free tickets for the cops, which I feel is a form of corruption.
[30:02.090 --> 30:04.050]  And they really gave us trouble.
[30:04.230 --> 30:06.110]  They really were nitpicking about everything.
[30:06.410 --> 30:08.570]  They wanted to get us for something.
[30:08.890 --> 30:11.670]  It didn't succeed, but they wanted to get us for something.
[30:11.850 --> 30:19.530]  So Dutch government is really cracking down on hacking and hacking is not looked on as positively as it was maybe 10 years ago.
[30:20.090 --> 30:22.790]  Part of that is our own fault.
[30:22.950 --> 30:25.170]  We never set up a structure like the CCC.
[30:25.390 --> 30:26.730]  We never had an organization.
[30:26.730 --> 30:33.130]  At the time, people like me felt that wasn't necessary or we felt it was just a whole lot of trouble.
[30:34.390 --> 30:35.950]  You have to understand... It is.
[30:36.070 --> 30:37.350]  You have to understand the CCC.
[30:39.090 --> 30:46.150]  You can become very depressed and be brought to suicide really quickly if you read the CCC internal mailing lists.
[30:48.810 --> 30:50.950]  Especially if you don't know the people on it.
[30:51.090 --> 30:56.890]  If you don't know that these people will in fact have dinner together two days afterwards and not think anything of it.
[30:56.950 --> 31:02.390]  If you think these people really are their online persona, it's really depressing.
[31:03.510 --> 31:08.470]  So as I said, our internal discussion culture is colorful.
[31:10.650 --> 31:11.270]  Yes.
[31:11.670 --> 31:12.730]  To put it mildly.
[31:14.030 --> 31:18.990]  You could also phrase it as that flame wars are seen as a spectator sport.
[31:24.050 --> 31:29.150]  But CCC has managed to live through a number of leadership crises.
[31:29.410 --> 31:31.970]  They have managed to live through crazy things.
[31:31.970 --> 31:39.750]  They have managed to live through part of their leadership being arrested and charged with spying for the enemy.
[31:40.070 --> 31:51.210]  They have lived through all sorts of weird stuff and basically have every once in a while moved on to new generations of people doing things.
[31:52.470 --> 31:54.630]  Relatively painlessly still, I say.
[31:54.630 --> 31:56.490]  From the outside perspective.
[31:56.770 --> 31:58.010]  From the outsider's perspective.
[31:58.270 --> 32:02.370]  If you are on the mailing list, it's really weird, but...
[32:02.370 --> 32:11.550]  Well, one example you have for the positive view we have among, let's say, government is Arcade.
[32:12.150 --> 32:15.570]  Arcade is, let's say, BlinkLights 2.0.
[32:18.410 --> 32:21.930]  We took a very fancy building for Arcade.
[32:22.150 --> 32:25.710]  We got the National Library of France in Paris for that.
[32:26.530 --> 32:33.250]  And, as you probably know, France is a country which is almost as proud on itself than America is.
[32:34.130 --> 32:35.390]  So, just imagine to get...
[32:35.390 --> 32:35.470]  No, it's not.
[32:35.590 --> 32:36.510]  It's twice as proud.
[32:36.850 --> 32:37.950]  It's twice as proud.
[32:38.110 --> 32:38.230]  Okay.
[32:38.530 --> 32:42.430]  Just imagine to get the National Library of the United States of America for that.
[32:44.210 --> 32:46.070]  Library of Congress.
[32:46.250 --> 32:47.110]  Library of Congress.
[32:47.350 --> 32:47.390]  Whatever.
[32:48.470 --> 32:48.710]  Okay.
[32:48.870 --> 32:59.330]  So, it was especially interesting because France has been on a sort of vendetta against the CCC for quite some time in the 80s.
[32:59.970 --> 33:09.510]  And people got arrested in France under very shady circumstances for spying or other activities like this.
[33:09.510 --> 33:20.130]  And, actually, there has been a CCC France for quite some time that has been run by the Interior Intelligence Agency of France.
[33:21.630 --> 33:34.570]  So, they basically wanted to prevent that such a structure is getting up in France because they didn't really want to have somebody like...
[33:34.570 --> 33:36.250]  We are in the same position as we are.
[33:36.970 --> 33:47.550]  And so, they founded the CCC France and by that prevented a similar hacker organization setting up in France.
[33:47.550 --> 33:57.250]  I mean, well, there are some hacker groups in France, but we are always a bit hesitant because of that history, so to say.
[33:59.270 --> 33:59.710]  Yeah.
[33:59.710 --> 34:03.670]  What I really would like you to do is come over to the Congress this year.
[34:03.670 --> 34:07.170]  It is the 27th to 30th of December.
[34:07.550 --> 34:13.950]  I know the date, especially for people with families, is a little bit bad, but traditionally it has been there.
[34:14.590 --> 34:18.970]  I see it as an excuse to get away from all the usual stuff.
[34:20.570 --> 34:22.030]  It is always a big event.
[34:22.190 --> 34:23.670]  We have around 3,000 people there.
[34:24.410 --> 34:35.810]  We usually have three to four tracks of talks and workshops for four days, starting around noon, going to well after midnight.
[34:35.810 --> 34:40.770]  And, as I said, content is about 50% in English, so it is not a real problem there.
[34:41.450 --> 34:50.530]  And I can promise you it is very much different from, let's say, DEFCON or any other U.S. con that you have been on.
[34:51.270 --> 35:01.010]  The culture is much more cooperative and lots more stuff is happening and also lots of more cultural impact and cultural events are going on.
[35:01.010 --> 35:09.630]  So, if you can book now, 27th to 30th of December, so leave just after Christmas.
[35:09.830 --> 35:15.110]  You have a nice excuse to get away from all the dead birds that you need to eat otherwise.
[35:17.430 --> 35:20.230]  And, so, yeah, I would be really happy to see you there.
[35:22.330 --> 35:24.130]  Okay, so I think we are roughly through.
[35:25.210 --> 35:28.730]  If you have questions, please feel free and please go to the microphones.
[35:28.730 --> 35:32.310]  We have been instructed to repeat that as often as we can.
[35:32.530 --> 35:33.550]  Please go to the microphones.
[35:40.560 --> 35:41.120]  Hi.
[35:42.340 --> 35:49.160]  Anyways, I just want to say thanks for, in general, to all European hackers.
[35:49.480 --> 36:07.940]  Because when I was in high school, back in Texas in the mid-90s, when I got on the Internet, and there are two kind of sub, kind of hacker subcultures in Europe that really had a profound inspiration on me.
[36:08.420 --> 36:23.880]  And, sorry, and they're not really, it's more kind of like what Richard Stallone was talking about, like musical hacking or whatever, like graphics hacking, like the demo scene.
[36:23.880 --> 36:24.400]  Mm-hm.
[36:24.760 --> 36:28.640]  And, music hacking, like mod tracking and all that stuff.
[36:29.040 --> 36:38.180]  And, so, my question is, you know, those kind of hacking related activities, and there's quite a bit of it still going on today.
[36:38.180 --> 36:53.160]  I am just curious, what the intersection of those hacker subcultures are with, like the CCC and other forms of hacking.
[36:53.700 --> 36:55.680]  Yes, it is very simple.
[36:55.680 --> 37:02.020]  So, we are trying to infect as much other scenes as possible with the hacker mindset, consciously.
[37:02.460 --> 37:10.400]  So, we are trying to attract as much as possible people from weird, out-of-hardcore tech hacking fields.
[37:11.100 --> 37:19.860]  So, we have people, for instance, that are doing open-source 3D objects, which is the next big thing, I think.
[37:20.580 --> 37:23.160]  So, we had them two or three years ago already.
[37:24.560 --> 37:30.360]  The whole lockpicking thing is also immensely tied to the European hacker scene.
[37:30.560 --> 37:39.560]  So, this hacker mindset of just doing things differently, asking questions, getting to the ground of it, is spreading very much.
[37:39.560 --> 37:44.760]  So, this year, we will have another focus on environment stuff.
[37:45.240 --> 37:49.720]  So, people who hack solar stuff, who hack cars, things like that.
[37:49.860 --> 37:53.760]  So, we are really spreading the hacker mindset to new spheres.
[37:54.460 --> 37:58.900]  Biotech is certainly the next big thing that is very high on our gender.
[37:59.640 --> 38:04.440]  So, we are trying, especially at the conferences, at the congress and the camps, we try to do that.
[38:04.440 --> 38:10.920]  So, one thing that I forgot to mention is, there has been, now, that the Dutch people are doing their camp every four years.
[38:11.080 --> 38:19.120]  And the CCC, so far, has also done every four years a camp, so that we have an interleaving of every two years, that there is a camp in the Netherlands and one camp in Germany.
[38:20.200 --> 38:30.360]  It is not yet clear if there will be a CCC camp, the next one, because we incur substantial financial losses at each camp.
[38:30.360 --> 38:33.360]  And so, we cannot really know at this moment if we can afford another one.
[38:33.480 --> 38:34.220]  But, let's see.
[38:34.300 --> 38:34.660]  I hope so.
[38:35.760 --> 38:45.100]  If we do so, we will plan this year not to collide with DEFCON, but to do it one week later.
[38:45.440 --> 38:59.140]  And there are people, I see somebody thinking over there who got me, being Jesse from the Hacker Foundation, who got us on the idea to just get a plane and get the people directly from DEFCON on a plane to the camp to Berlin.
[39:01.760 --> 39:05.780]  Governments of the world, this is your opportunity to get rid of all of us in one fell swoop.
[39:09.360 --> 39:09.880]  Hiya.
[39:10.840 --> 39:15.380]  So, you mentioned something about how the local groups in Germany seem to...
[39:15.380 --> 39:15.520]  Microphone.
[39:15.520 --> 39:16.000]  Microphone.
[39:16.660 --> 39:17.600]  I'm too short.
[39:21.220 --> 39:21.740]  Sorry.
[39:21.940 --> 39:22.280]  Thanks.
[39:23.060 --> 39:25.040]  Seem to get a lot of resources for themselves.
[39:25.360 --> 39:40.060]  And so, I'm wondering how that works in Holland, and how you guys get your own resources, and what advice you can give to us, because it seems like we can't put on the kind of projects that you guys do, and there should be enough of us, right?
[39:40.440 --> 39:43.980]  So, what do we do for resources and...
[39:43.980 --> 39:48.320]  Well, one thing is resources aren't equal money.
[39:48.540 --> 39:49.860]  Resources can be a lot of things.
[39:49.860 --> 39:53.980]  And you don't need many resources to do very, very interesting things.
[39:55.300 --> 39:59.120]  Having said that, there's a number of ways.
[39:59.320 --> 40:08.880]  In Germany, the resources are mostly the club itself, and its own structures, and the way its members pay a fee.
[40:09.280 --> 40:16.160]  And these fees are distributed towards interesting projects on a local level, as well as the national things, the magazine.
[40:17.660 --> 40:25.080]  So, the club is sort of, as far as I gather, is sort of its own structure as far as creating resources.
[40:25.460 --> 40:31.700]  In Holland, we've had the good fortune of being part of setting up an Internet provider, which became very, very, very large.
[40:32.300 --> 40:34.620]  It was sold for a very, very large amount of money.
[40:37.280 --> 40:47.960]  So, that created a very large company, which is still actively sponsoring things which are interesting, in terms of freedom of speech, in terms of network culture, hacker culture.
[40:48.260 --> 40:53.020]  So, we can still go to XSAll and say, hey, we're doing something interesting.
[40:53.320 --> 40:54.600]  Do you feel like sponsoring it?
[40:55.060 --> 40:57.400]  And they look on it very, very favorably.
[40:57.400 --> 41:09.220]  And there's also a number of people that have either made some money or created the opportunity for themselves to do their own thing, which is also interesting.
[41:09.980 --> 41:15.000]  So, maybe being very concrete about it.
[41:16.840 --> 41:24.920]  Usually, the membership fee for CCC is, if I'm not totally wrong, in the region of 20 euros per month.
[41:27.860 --> 41:30.300]  26 and 72 a year.
[41:30.700 --> 41:31.100]  Yeah, sorry.
[41:32.160 --> 41:33.480]  That's the local level.
[41:33.640 --> 41:34.580]  So, basically, we have...
[41:34.580 --> 41:36.060]  On the local level, we have these...
[41:37.140 --> 41:44.120]  In the city like Berlin, for instance, we have the Clubhouse that has its own structure that's more or less independent.
[41:45.360 --> 41:55.620]  And so, the structure is set up in a way that each local structure gets money from the national organization for every member that's in its national area.
[41:55.900 --> 41:58.440]  So, basically, we have to translate it.
[41:58.540 --> 42:02.960]  If there would be something like that in the U.S., then there would be a Clubhouse in New York.
[42:03.060 --> 42:07.360]  The Clubhouse in New York would get the membership, part of the membership fee of everybody in New York paying dues.
[42:07.640 --> 42:10.260]  So, that is how the structure roughly works.
[42:10.260 --> 42:13.960]  And so, it is not inexpensive.
[42:13.960 --> 42:15.580]  So, I don't...
[42:15.580 --> 42:21.280]  I think I'm paying roughly 50 bucks per month for all my CCC membership fees around it.
[42:21.340 --> 42:22.460]  But okay, but I'm earning money too.
[42:23.040 --> 42:25.060]  So, the balance is out more or less.
[42:25.160 --> 42:29.520]  So, as you can guess, we have lots of discussions about money.
[42:30.740 --> 42:43.740]  So, but in the end, it works out that we have, I think, six or seven local organizations that have their own Clubhouse, which is very, very good to get spontaneous action done.
[42:43.940 --> 42:50.300]  So, when people meet weekly and know each other, okay, they, of course, fight about the kitchen and who cleans the toilet.
[42:50.900 --> 42:56.800]  But they all think about stuff together and have a regular way of meeting and doing things.
[42:56.800 --> 42:58.980]  And I can only strongly recommend it.
[42:59.100 --> 43:13.160]  So, if you look, for instance, at the U.S., what came out of L0pht, for instance, that shows that having a place to be, even if it's very small, is really worth the effort of organizing it and collecting the monthly fee from everybody.
[43:13.440 --> 43:20.880]  So, that has been very central to the CCC culture that a lot of local organizations have this kind of structure.
[43:20.880 --> 43:28.840]  And as soon as they had this, then they're not meeting in some guest house or whatever anymore, but had really their own infrastructure.
[43:29.060 --> 43:29.280]  Or a shopping mall.
[43:29.620 --> 43:29.800]  Huh?
[43:30.300 --> 43:31.480]  Or a shopping mall.
[43:31.620 --> 43:32.440]  Shopping mall, yeah.
[43:32.640 --> 43:34.260]  It's hard to do something interesting in a mall.
[43:34.360 --> 43:34.380]  Yeah.
[43:34.400 --> 43:44.440]  So, that I can really recommend is really try to find a cheap space, something in an industrial area, but somebody where people can go with public transport and try to...
[43:44.440 --> 43:45.560]  So, not in New York.
[43:45.820 --> 43:45.880]  Huh?
[43:46.000 --> 43:47.040]  So, not in New York.
[43:47.560 --> 43:50.240]  Yeah, I think in New York it's a bit difficult, I guess, yeah.
[43:50.240 --> 43:55.120]  So, it's interesting what you said about how their resources aren't just money.
[43:55.340 --> 44:02.380]  Like, money is important, obviously, but it's like you use money to make structure, and then structure earns you respect.
[44:02.380 --> 44:04.520]  No, you don't use money to make structure.
[44:04.820 --> 44:09.020]  You use creativity to create structure.
[44:09.200 --> 44:09.760]  So, make structure, and then you get money.
[44:10.060 --> 44:14.180]  Creativity and just work are much more important than money.
[44:14.260 --> 44:17.840]  You can create structures without almost any money or without money.
[44:18.780 --> 44:19.660]  It's overrated.
[44:19.880 --> 44:21.260]  Money is overrated as...
[44:21.260 --> 44:31.380]  But once you have the structure, and once you have the money, then you can use that to do interesting things, which gains you respect, which gains you more resources, which gains more structure.
[44:32.200 --> 44:32.980]  I totally agree...
[44:32.980 --> 44:34.080]  Until you dominate the world!
[44:35.580 --> 44:36.480]  Thank you, thank you.
[44:36.660 --> 44:38.520]  I totally agree that the main difference...
[44:38.520 --> 44:56.460]  one of the differences is that the organization and the rooms, and I don't want to tell you what you should do, but I would just like to invite you to come over to Germany or to Europe, and have a look, and decide by yourself if organization and room,
[44:57.000 --> 45:00.300]  or structure and rooms might help you, possibly.
[45:00.440 --> 45:02.400]  There's also raw economics.
[45:03.320 --> 45:07.980]  Berlin has fantastic infrastructure for hackers.
[45:08.340 --> 45:10.540]  It also has fantastic infrastructure for art.
[45:10.780 --> 45:24.900]  But then you have to remember that in Berlin, even if you want a space the size of half this room, you can probably... and you have a good plan for it, and you can probably get it for nearly free, if you're willing to be at the end of a subway line somewhere,
[45:26.140 --> 45:28.320]  because space is just nearly free in Berlin.
[45:29.500 --> 45:38.640]  You can live like a king in Berlin for a thousand dollars a month, which is great, because that's all you're ever going to make, if you ever find a job there.
[45:42.240 --> 45:47.640]  So, the raw economics of different places in the world really dictate what people can do there.
[45:47.740 --> 45:56.160]  There's lots of art happening in Berlin, there's lots of underground culture, there's lots of squats, there's lots of interesting things happening, but that's also because the economy is completely bust.
[45:57.900 --> 45:59.660]  So, you have to keep these things in mind.
[45:59.880 --> 46:02.600]  Just don't stare at these things and go, why can't we have that?
[46:02.800 --> 46:04.620]  It's so great, we can never have...
[46:05.240 --> 46:07.440]  There's raw economics at play here as well.
[46:07.640 --> 46:14.240]  Yeah, but if you look at other places that are economically a bit more health, like Cologne for instance, that works, or am I wrong about it?
[46:14.800 --> 46:15.620]  So, it works.
[46:16.960 --> 46:29.080]  Basically, if people decide to pool their resources and say, okay, let's just try it and form a small association and rent a room and just try it out, you will quickly notice that you attract more people.
[46:29.260 --> 46:34.920]  So, you attract more interesting people who are also willing to pool their stuff in there.
[46:35.600 --> 46:43.840]  And there are a number of issues, like you need to prevent this thing from becoming in dump for old hardware that nobody wants anymore, because it tends to pile up.
[46:43.840 --> 46:46.220]  But these are problems that you're happy to solve.
[46:46.700 --> 46:47.600]  It's also...
[46:47.600 --> 46:51.200]  A large part of this is also who you believe you are.
[46:51.480 --> 46:51.700]  Yeah.
[46:52.420 --> 46:57.420]  Which we'll come back to in the 2600 meetings discussions later at 10.
[46:58.140 --> 47:03.500]  But if you believe you're a bunch of belligerent kids in a shopping center, then you probably will be.
[47:03.720 --> 47:08.340]  If you believe that you can really change society, then maybe you can.
[47:08.560 --> 47:13.200]  It's really who you say you are and what you accept that other people make you to be.
[47:14.800 --> 47:15.400]  Yeah.
[47:16.040 --> 47:16.360]  Brandon.
[47:17.040 --> 47:25.500]  How do you negotiate your relationship with feds, especially foreign feds, who may be interested in activities with club members, things like that?
[47:25.700 --> 47:26.600]  How do you negotiate what?
[47:26.840 --> 47:31.260]  Your relationship with feds, you know, intelligence agencies, FBI...
[47:31.260 --> 47:31.560]  Police.
[47:32.080 --> 47:32.300]  Police.
[47:35.660 --> 47:42.360]  I negotiate my relationship with my own feds in my country by just not ever organizing anything in there anymore.
[47:42.540 --> 47:45.420]  But my country has gone a little crazy over the past four or five years.
[47:45.420 --> 47:54.140]  I think in Germany, the German state at various levels realizes that the CCC is a positive force.
[47:54.640 --> 48:11.040]  Even though there have been incidents and these kids may not all be trusted, that the CCC as a whole is a very positive force, that very good things have come out of it, and that Germany would be worse off without the CCC.
[48:11.220 --> 48:13.440]  And I think that's carried very broadly...
[48:14.200 --> 48:23.520]  Anybody that knows CCC will probably subscribe to this, even in the German prosecutor's office or even with the intelligence services.
[48:24.840 --> 48:29.940]  I think Germany at very high levels also realizes that they have a problem with the U.S.
[48:30.440 --> 48:32.500]  Or at least they used to a couple of years ago.
[48:32.900 --> 48:38.540]  Which also makes it very conducive to the idea that maybe there's something to it because hackers have been...
[48:38.540 --> 48:43.480]  At least the German hacker scene has been claiming a lot of these things before the German state even realized them.
[48:44.180 --> 48:49.080]  So there is a sort of a feeling like, oh my god, there is something to it after all.
[48:50.500 --> 48:53.140]  So there are two things mainly.
[48:53.420 --> 48:58.600]  One is we have been right quite surprisingly often.
[48:59.640 --> 49:06.040]  And on the other hand is we try to be... have a non-threatening image.
[49:06.300 --> 49:30.980]  So we are not really trying to be mean-assing, but we try to be very approachable, sociable, trying to appoint people to bespoke persons that can work, that can sit down with a high level police guy and negotiate a solution to a problem.
[49:31.680 --> 49:38.240]  And is not falling into let's fight first and see who lands in jail mode.
[49:38.240 --> 49:41.340]  So that's also...
[49:41.340 --> 49:42.840]  And also we are 20 years down the road.
[49:43.020 --> 49:46.760]  A number of people from CCC are now the government.
[49:48.200 --> 49:50.660]  And not all of them have forgotten who they were.
[49:53.340 --> 49:57.820]  So, for instance, one interesting side piece is there.
[49:58.440 --> 50:04.980]  The guy who is currently the official head of our association, which doesn't mean that he does a lot of activities.
[50:04.980 --> 50:06.120]  He's just the official head.
[50:07.380 --> 50:13.160]  Has been inspector for United Nations in Iraq when they tried to prevent a war there.
[50:13.160 --> 50:15.820]  And he was doing computer forensics there.
[50:15.980 --> 50:24.320]  So this is the kind of people that are in the structure at us and who also know stuff from inside out.
[50:24.820 --> 50:27.360]  And so we are very, very inclusive.
[50:27.640 --> 50:28.480]  So it's...
[50:29.160 --> 50:31.220]  I would not say we have policemen as members.
[50:31.600 --> 50:32.680]  Probably we have a few.
[50:32.680 --> 50:33.420]  We have.
[50:33.800 --> 50:38.360]  But we are not really...
[50:39.220 --> 50:41.160]  Not just kids in shopping malls here.
[50:41.340 --> 50:42.580]  That's basically the point.
[50:42.800 --> 50:47.320]  So, which also means that there's a lot of people who you can talk to.
[50:47.500 --> 50:58.200]  So if there's a crisis, there are 15, 20 people who have been through severe crises where it was all or nothing and who know how to talk to such people.
[50:58.360 --> 50:59.860]  And so on the other side knows that too.
[51:00.000 --> 51:02.080]  So they know that there's somebody who they can talk to.
[51:02.080 --> 51:05.400]  who changes their rule or behavior a lot.
[51:05.860 --> 51:08.760]  There's a well understood common interest also.
[51:09.060 --> 51:17.560]  If there is bad stuff happening, if there's kids that need a little bit of education or that are being destructive, people jump to that.
[51:17.680 --> 51:23.220]  People go, well, why don't we go sit down for a little bit and we'll talk to you a little bit, because you obviously...
[51:23.760 --> 51:33.800]  There's some interesting stuff you're doing here, but you obviously need to understand a little bit more because this is not going anywhere or you're going to get in trouble or you're going to get us all in trouble.
[51:35.180 --> 51:39.660]  And that role is also understood by all sides, which is very important.
[51:39.920 --> 51:51.760]  So one of the sentences I will never forget when sitting down with one of the lead prosecutors for computer crime in Germany about such a case where a kid came to us and said, okay, this is the problem, I need a solution.
[51:52.060 --> 51:56.060]  And he said, hmm, this kid seems to have overlooked a few laws.
[51:57.860 --> 52:00.420]  So this was the kind of attitude.
[52:00.780 --> 52:04.740]  And that's quite different, I noticed, to him.
[52:05.200 --> 52:05.660]  Thank you.
[52:10.270 --> 52:17.210]  Well, I'm scared that you said that you have 16 gigabit of band in the last camp.
[52:17.750 --> 52:19.150]  Congress in Berlin.
[52:19.250 --> 52:20.950]  In the Congress in Berlin.
[52:21.630 --> 52:34.630]  As a representative of the Italian part of the movement, we are scared about this because it's too much and it's quite different from our approach.
[52:35.170 --> 52:42.930]  Our approach means, for instance, five years ago, me and Jeremy, we said we will do an unplugged hack meeting in Catania.
[52:42.930 --> 52:56.150]  The problem was then to explain to the journalist that we were not preparing a hacker attack to the G8 after three days, three months, because we had no modem.
[52:56.310 --> 53:06.350]  We had only one modem to be used by one Cameroon guy that was preparing his university thesis.
[53:07.450 --> 53:27.650]  The unplugged hack meeting, or in the future, we had a limited bandwidth only for SSH, that is the minimum for everybody, was to have more socializing meetings rather than moving data back and forth a village.
[53:29.430 --> 53:43.910]  For instance, for the next Italian hack meeting, we don't know now where it will be because probably will be done in a squatter and we have not yet decided where to squatter.
[53:45.850 --> 53:51.250]  Facing, obviously, the legal problem related to this.
[53:51.450 --> 53:56.890]  But the meaning is, there were more people speaking and less people on the keyboard.
[53:57.330 --> 54:03.130]  I met only two people in the internal network there, that were chatting on the same table.
[54:04.290 --> 54:05.470]  That's too much.
[54:05.510 --> 54:08.150]  It's an interesting point.
[54:08.410 --> 54:13.430]  So, I want to have two remarks on that.
[54:13.530 --> 54:18.990]  One is, we of course know the problem with having too much Internet at conferences.
[54:18.990 --> 54:24.530]  and we tried to approach to have so much Internet that it becomes pointless.
[54:27.130 --> 54:35.470]  Because if there is more Internet than you can reasonably saturate, then people will simply say, okay, there's Internet and that's it.
[54:38.330 --> 54:39.870]  Everybody has Internet at home now.
[54:40.110 --> 54:49.710]  So, the reason why there was so much file sharing, let's say, three years or five years ago, was because people had only maximum one megabit at home.
[54:50.270 --> 54:59.850]  And so, now that you can get 60 megabit or more for reasonable pricing, so nobody really needs to do file sharing at congress anymore, except for stuff that he doesn't want to share over the Internet.
[55:02.130 --> 55:06.010]  So, having an offline meeting is an interesting idea, but I don't think we will go that way.
[55:06.590 --> 55:11.930]  The second thing, of course, is the problem of what happens when people hack from conferences.
[55:12.190 --> 55:24.570]  So, I have manning the app use phone for the congress now for quite a few years, meaning that's the phone number that's published in all the records where people can call when they have been hacked.
[55:25.910 --> 55:29.490]  Which is a good thing to do, because they actually call.
[55:30.510 --> 55:34.210]  So, they actually call and say, hey, we have this problem, we have that problem.
[55:34.450 --> 55:50.910]  And it is not a nice job, because sometimes you need to explain to an ISP that has just 16,000 customers with defaced homepages that this was just a kid that has been apparently ignoring a few laws.
[55:52.430 --> 55:58.430]  and that you please should not try to be too aggressive about it.
[55:59.930 --> 56:09.490]  Sometimes you have people just calling saying, yeah, I am just seeing here on my firewall quite a number of people knocking at my door with increasing force.
[56:09.910 --> 56:17.570]  Could you please just put my network range out of your firewall so that no packets are routed anymore from congress to me, and that would be just fine.
[56:17.570 --> 56:20.470]  And this is an increasing approach.
[56:20.690 --> 56:23.090]  The people just say, okay, there are hackers out there.
[56:23.310 --> 56:25.170]  They will go looking for targets.
[56:25.290 --> 56:28.950]  You cannot prevent it anymore if you have 3,000 people on the network that has 16 gigabits.
[56:29.930 --> 56:31.350]  But anyway, that's life.
[56:31.550 --> 56:36.710]  And we just want not to be bothered anymore.
[56:36.710 --> 56:40.250]  So that's the practice that we're currently using.
[56:40.610 --> 56:41.270]  It mostly works.
[56:41.390 --> 56:43.850]  So we never had a serious police raid at the congress.
[56:44.510 --> 56:50.070]  Sometimes they came, said, okay, you have 3,000 people in a DHCP network with 10 minutes least time.
[56:50.390 --> 56:51.450]  Okay, we go again.
[56:51.930 --> 56:56.470]  So there's no use in prosecuting anyone here.
[56:56.470 --> 56:57.550]  So last question then.
[57:02.620 --> 57:03.820]  I'll try to make this quick.
[57:04.000 --> 57:27.400]  But as far as organization goes, do you find that your cooperation with the government or possibly your government's willingness to cooperate with you as the CCC fosters a greater ability to create more organization in the sense that you have a more positive stimulus for your membership to actually come into some sort of organization?
[57:27.540 --> 57:35.600]  As opposed to here in the United States where, at least from my perspective, we have a fairly decent bureaucracy that we get a lot of negative stimulus from.
[57:36.040 --> 57:39.820]  And I think we tend to be a little more anti-establishment in that right.
[57:41.920 --> 57:43.420]  It is difficult to say.
[57:44.560 --> 58:00.060]  We had the good fortune that we, at certain points in our history, decided to do the non-aggressive approach and in face of severe government action, to smile and not be back.
[58:00.360 --> 58:07.620]  And also try to not be too aggressive against them so that they could, on the other hand, be friendly to us.
[58:07.620 --> 58:13.800]  I have no clue if that is possible to do that in the U.S. still because things have now a long history.
[58:14.000 --> 58:21.620]  There are people that have been in jail and there are people in the bureaucracy who just plainly hate hackers.
[58:21.760 --> 58:28.200]  I have met some of them who are really aggressive and say, okay, hackers are the bad people that need to go to jail most quickly.
[58:31.080 --> 58:49.300]  And my idea, I have no idea if it's realistic, would be to focus on the society aspects, to getting people into the discussion that are thinking about privacy issues from the other end of the field, to think about copyright from the other end of the field.
[58:49.300 --> 58:59.320]  So basically bridging the gap between hackers and EFF and bridging the gap between the ACLU and the technical hackers here.
[58:59.600 --> 59:02.880]  So that would be probably the only realistic strategy on that.
[59:03.020 --> 59:06.340]  So we are now being thrown out by our friendly moderator.
[59:07.500 --> 59:15.240]  Just one thing, this discussion, a discussion that is very similar to this one, I predict, is going to be happening here in this room at 10.
[59:15.740 --> 59:20.840]  Because then we are talking about 2600 meetings and that's also going to deal a lot with organization.
[59:20.940 --> 59:22.220]  How can things be better?
[59:23.180 --> 59:26.860]  So at 10 right here, a lot of these issues will continue.
[59:27.960 --> 59:31.080]  At the end, I would like to say thank you for you all for coming.
[59:32.440 --> 59:38.180]  And we would like to invite you to come over to Europe and have a view on it, how we do it.
[59:38.480 --> 59:44.020]  And then you might decide yourself if it could be worth trying this in America.
[59:44.760 --> 59:48.400]  If you try so, I would have to say it will be lots of work.
[59:48.820 --> 59:50.500]  But maybe it will be worth it.
[59:50.500 --> 59:50.640]  deeply and thank you for it.
[59:50.820 --> 59:50.960]  Thank you.
[59:51.260 --> 59:51.420]  And this is the first sentence.