[00:00.000 --> 00:16.480]  I'm Alex Urebellis, the general counsel of the Ethereum Name Service, professor of law at King's College, member of the Technology Advisory Board of Human Rights First, and I am here speaking with Jason Long, who is the director of the Innovation Lab at Human Rights First.
[00:16.620 --> 00:29.820]  And so we have a very rare opportunity to talk to somebody who is directly involved in making impactful technology on a shoestring budget in a human rights context, and is doing really meaningful things for the community.
[00:30.560 --> 00:33.460]  So with that, I want to hand it over to Jason.
[00:33.700 --> 00:42.720]  And I'm going to ask you first about, you know, just, why don't you give us a little bit of background about who you are, how you got into technology, like, you know, start from the outset here.
[00:43.160 --> 00:43.260]  Sure.
[00:43.600 --> 00:48.240]  So I'll tell you the real story while I have the corporate branded blurb on the screen.
[00:49.320 --> 00:57.960]  I was interested in technology from the time I was maybe four or five years old, taking apart computers, making my uncle burn, you know, teach me how to put them back together.
[00:58.080 --> 00:59.240]  So that's for about 20 years?
[01:00.020 --> 01:00.340]  Yeah.
[01:00.560 --> 01:00.900]  Yeah, okay.
[01:01.100 --> 01:01.440]  Very good.
[01:01.600 --> 01:01.720]  Something about that.
[01:01.900 --> 01:01.940]  Yeah.
[01:03.460 --> 01:05.000]  And so that was kind of my vision.
[01:05.100 --> 01:06.060]  That's what I wanted to do.
[01:06.760 --> 01:07.820]  Life didn't line up that way.
[01:07.980 --> 01:10.140]  I ended up falling into retail and then event management.
[01:10.340 --> 01:11.600]  Any of you know what Magic the Gathering is?
[01:11.680 --> 01:12.360]  I did a lot with that.
[01:12.620 --> 01:13.380]  Talked to me afterwards.
[01:15.320 --> 01:19.400]  And then, I won't say life happened.
[01:19.580 --> 01:20.720]  I made terrible mistakes.
[01:21.000 --> 01:23.800]  So I got arrested, made me lose my business, had to start over.
[01:23.800 --> 01:29.540]  So I had this opportunity to figure out what to do with my life again at 30 years old.
[01:29.960 --> 01:33.600]  And I found an ad for a coding boot camp on Facebook.
[01:34.080 --> 01:37.100]  So I talked to my partner and said, you know, can we make this work?
[01:37.220 --> 01:40.320]  Can I go do this for a year instead of going back to work?
[01:40.720 --> 01:41.680]  We figured it out.
[01:41.800 --> 01:42.360]  We made it happen.
[01:43.340 --> 01:48.060]  So that's how I got trained to be a software engineer, specifically in web development.
[01:48.060 --> 01:57.540]  And toward the end of that program, I got assigned to a project for the brand new, newly minted innovation lab at Human Rights First.
[01:58.500 --> 02:04.280]  And that was the first time I realized that technologists can work in impact spaces.
[02:04.640 --> 02:07.540]  And in fact, it is a profession that you can pursue.
[02:08.520 --> 02:09.820]  Fell so in love with the work.
[02:10.220 --> 02:12.580]  It lasted past my time at the boot camp.
[02:12.720 --> 02:13.240]  I graduated.
[02:13.240 --> 02:15.060]  They kept letting me come to meetings.
[02:15.240 --> 02:16.140]  I kept showing up.
[02:17.320 --> 02:20.120]  Eventually, the lab kicked off a fellowship program.
[02:20.180 --> 02:21.560]  So I was one of the lab's first fellows.
[02:21.820 --> 02:23.400]  And I haven't left since.
[02:24.100 --> 02:34.400]  So now it's my privilege to kind of direct the lab that gave me my start in technology and to continue to help develop the next generations of software engineers to do the same.
[02:34.400 --> 02:35.220]  That's very cool.
[02:35.500 --> 02:36.120]  That is very cool.
[02:36.240 --> 02:37.660]  Two things strike me there.
[02:38.660 --> 02:42.480]  The first one is, this is a testament to the power of just showing up, isn't it?
[02:42.660 --> 02:42.760]  Right?
[02:42.900 --> 02:44.980]  You know, being there, being present, being part of something.
[02:46.400 --> 02:48.820]  You become a part of it in a sense, right?
[02:49.000 --> 02:50.020]  That's very, very cool.
[02:50.620 --> 02:55.760]  The other aspect of this is, how many years ago was that that you first started that project?
[02:56.740 --> 02:59.620]  That project was almost six years ago now.
[02:59.740 --> 02:59.940]  Okay.
[03:00.160 --> 03:02.120]  So that's a very short period of time, right?
[03:02.260 --> 03:03.680]  Six years, like a blink of an eye.
[03:03.680 --> 03:05.480]  Six years, like a blink of an eye.
[03:05.520 --> 03:06.040]  Well, yeah.
[03:06.320 --> 03:07.020]  That's incredible.
[03:07.240 --> 03:07.360]  Wow.
[03:08.280 --> 03:11.440]  I was just about to say, I think we had President Trump in power.
[03:11.600 --> 03:13.740]  And, you know, we're about to have the same again, right?
[03:13.860 --> 03:15.400]  So maybe history repeats itself.
[03:16.220 --> 03:17.340]  Hopefully we can break some cycles.
[03:17.600 --> 03:18.320]  Some things like that.
[03:19.480 --> 03:21.440]  But that's a good segue into my other question.
[03:21.620 --> 03:23.120]  You mentioned impact.
[03:23.380 --> 03:24.220]  What do you mean by impact?
[03:24.660 --> 03:26.040]  Talk to me a little bit about that.
[03:26.360 --> 03:26.680]  Yeah.
[03:27.000 --> 03:28.120]  So that's a really good question.
[03:28.740 --> 03:35.360]  It's something that motivates me really deeply and has kind of crystallized over the years for me.
[03:36.180 --> 03:36.580]  Kind of crystallized.
[03:36.580 --> 03:41.100]  When I was first converted from fellow to employee at Humorize First, I had an option.
[03:41.580 --> 03:49.440]  I could continue pursuing the interview path at AWS, which pays a hell of a lot of money, if you didn't know.
[03:49.440 --> 03:52.040]  Or I could pursue this impact thing.
[03:52.780 --> 03:57.800]  And so I started reflecting on, besides the money, because as a software engineer, I will make the money.
[03:58.400 --> 04:01.320]  What do I want my life to mean when I'm done with it?
[04:02.600 --> 04:14.620]  And instead of figuring out what color, what position to put the buy and how button to maximize sales, I decided that I would rather spend my time building something that could impact even just one life.
[04:15.560 --> 04:20.900]  I was told a long time ago that the greatest gift in the world is to be able to positively impact another human being.
[04:21.480 --> 04:25.300]  And at the time, as it happens when you're a teenager, it doesn't make sense to me.
[04:25.480 --> 04:26.840]  It finally kind of clicked.
[04:27.120 --> 04:37.500]  If I could spend my time making the path forward for someone else more equitable, more fair, safer, then it would be a shame on me to not do that.
[04:37.500 --> 04:38.920]  Yeah, that's amazing.
[04:39.100 --> 04:45.240]  It reminds me of this Ralph Waldo Emerson quote where he talks about the measure of a successful life.
[04:45.380 --> 04:51.100]  And he says that if one person has breathed easier because of your existence on this earth, then you've succeeded.
[04:51.840 --> 04:56.020]  So that's a very interesting, I think, definition of impact for you.
[04:56.120 --> 04:57.320]  So that's great, Jason.
[04:57.860 --> 05:05.840]  Now, speaking of this impact, let's talk a little bit about what the Innovation Lab has been doing over the last six years or so.
[05:05.840 --> 05:21.860]  I mean, the Innovation Lab all operates within the context of a larger human rights organization, Human Rights First, which is in a lot of ways dedicated to protecting and promoting American ideals.
[05:22.020 --> 05:33.820]  And I think the very best of what we talk about when we're talking about American ideals, we're talking about tolerance and pluralism and making sure that people who come here as refugees are taken care of.
[05:33.820 --> 05:34.640]  Asylum rights.
[05:34.900 --> 05:38.260]  You know, these are the things that, you know, kind of welcoming immigrants with open arms.
[05:38.520 --> 05:46.860]  And Human Rights First has not been shy to criticize whoever is in political power if they disagree with the policies.
[05:47.040 --> 05:52.640]  And I think that they've been extraordinarily critical of the Biden administration and its asylum of the Biden administration.
[05:54.350 --> 05:59.590]  It's a real testament to the fact that Human Rights First is an apolitical organization.
[05:59.590 --> 06:05.650]  So talk to me about the Innovation Lab existing within this context of a human rights organization.
[06:06.010 --> 06:06.510]  Yeah.
[06:06.650 --> 06:11.030]  So we do a part... we look at ourselves as the enabling partner.
[06:11.350 --> 06:17.070]  So all of our projects will tend to partner with either an internal program or external partners.
[06:17.070 --> 06:33.470]  And we embed ourselves into their team to understand their problem, the frictions that they're experiencing, and think about how we can leverage technology to enable them to upscale, either to enable things that they can't access currently or to increase their capacity for impact.
[06:33.470 --> 06:47.150]  One of the trends in being in a resource-constrained environment, which I'll say a lot because that's really true of the nonprofit space, is that all of us have really ambitious goals and it's really challenging to pursue them.
[06:47.410 --> 06:53.570]  And so it's very common to be frustrated by not feeling that you have the momentum that you would like to have.
[06:53.890 --> 06:57.690]  So we design first around the primary user.
[06:57.790 --> 07:01.150]  That is our primary stakeholder, regardless of the organization or constituent.
[07:01.530 --> 07:04.370]  And then we understand their problems in design, they're first.
[07:05.230 --> 07:05.450]  Gotcha.
[07:05.670 --> 07:05.930]  Gotcha.
[07:06.070 --> 07:06.590]  Very interesting.
[07:08.710 --> 07:09.710]  The projects, though.
[07:09.990 --> 07:14.770]  I want you to talk to me about what specifically the Innovation Lab has been doing.
[07:14.830 --> 07:18.330]  And I know you might be able to walk us through some examples.
[07:18.490 --> 07:19.270]  That would be really cool.
[07:19.870 --> 07:23.790]  We've had Jason on the radio show at least once or twice, right?
[07:23.850 --> 07:24.830]  Twice maybe, I think?
[07:25.210 --> 07:25.390]  Just once.
[07:25.490 --> 07:26.230]  Oh, is it just once?
[07:26.290 --> 07:27.290]  Well, we need to have you on again.
[07:27.290 --> 07:33.050]  But I remember some of the tech that you were talking about then was just super cool.
[07:33.190 --> 07:33.930]  I don't want to give it away.
[07:34.170 --> 07:38.190]  But why don't you jump into it and tell us about some of these amazing projects.
[07:38.870 --> 07:38.970]  Yeah.
[07:39.350 --> 07:42.410]  So one of our longest lived projects is Glimpse.
[07:43.130 --> 07:48.770]  Glimpse is a computer vision platform that analyzes a video for violent actions and objects.
[07:49.570 --> 07:58.230]  We first started developing this project with the Hong Kong War Archive to help them go through the hundreds of thousands of videos that they have in their archive.
[07:58.730 --> 08:02.050]  Because it is not approachable for a human to catalog all that information at once.
[08:02.710 --> 08:06.770]  We have to think about the potential trauma of investigators doing this work manually.
[08:06.770 --> 08:12.430]  And so we focused on the problem of how do you increase this capacity and leverage technology to do that.
[08:12.650 --> 08:18.030]  So we designed custom inference models that record instances of violent actions and objects.
[08:18.430 --> 08:22.610]  And then extrapolate that out so that people can go find the parts of the video that are meaningful to them.
[08:22.750 --> 08:23.930]  They can do research.
[08:23.930 --> 08:24.810]  We can do advocacy.
[08:25.310 --> 08:27.750]  They can pursue legal remedies in some cases.
[08:28.870 --> 08:33.210]  And had to try to find a way to do it in a way that is resource accessible.
[08:34.290 --> 08:39.370]  One of the other challenges that we come up against is that there's a lot of possibilities in the technology space.
[08:39.790 --> 08:44.210]  But you have to be able to do it at a cost that is attainable and sustainable.
[08:45.090 --> 08:51.810]  Because one of the things that we keep as a core tenant is if we build enabling technology for an at-risk group.
[08:51.810 --> 08:58.090]  Sometimes the most dangerous thing you can do is not even if the thing weren't to exist, but for it to exist and then go away.
[08:58.670 --> 09:01.770]  That can be much more limiting.
[09:02.550 --> 09:08.830]  So that was our first kind of foray into how do you build enterprise-grade software on a budget.
[09:12.770 --> 09:15.590]  And talk a little bit about where is Glimpse now?
[09:15.810 --> 09:18.790]  And what's its current iteration?
[09:18.790 --> 09:24.530]  So right now we are in the process of building additional models for Glimpse.
[09:24.730 --> 09:35.470]  One of the things that we realized in our current application is that it's very well suited for civil unrest, for protests, things like that, police action against protesters.
[09:36.110 --> 09:40.210]  But there's a much bigger audience that needs help with a wartime context.
[09:40.730 --> 09:49.030]  The ongoing conflict in Ukraine is a really prime example of, you know, this is the first major world conflict that now exists where everybody has a cell phone.
[09:49.470 --> 09:55.650]  And so the amount of footage and data that exists around that conflict is exponentially larger than anything we've ever seen.
[09:55.910 --> 09:59.210]  And so we're looking to shift Glimpse to support that context as well.
[09:59.210 --> 09:59.990]  Wow.
[10:00.190 --> 10:01.550]  So that's a pretty massive project.
[10:02.170 --> 10:03.630]  It's a very large undertaking.
[10:04.030 --> 10:04.110]  Yeah.
[10:04.370 --> 10:04.610]  Yeah.
[10:04.750 --> 10:05.610]  Very, very interesting.
[10:06.590 --> 10:11.630]  You know, one of the things that we always get to at the end of this now, but I think, you know, why don't we just jump into it now?
[10:11.790 --> 10:16.210]  Are there any opportunities for the community to help with something like that?
[10:17.050 --> 10:17.450]  Absolutely.
[10:18.270 --> 10:19.870]  So actually a really great example.
[10:20.130 --> 10:22.610]  We just finished an event last month.
[10:22.610 --> 10:25.170]  We did our first hackathon in partnership with Howard University.
[10:26.290 --> 10:34.850]  And the motivation behind that was that part of our model for change is that we think that the community actually has the greatest levers for change.
[10:35.770 --> 10:37.850]  So that might mean different things for different people.
[10:38.070 --> 10:42.550]  It could be a path like mine where I made it my career and it's what I do full time.
[10:42.930 --> 10:46.630]  It could be for others, the thing that they do on the weekends in their spare time.
[10:46.630 --> 10:53.110]  And it doesn't necessarily mean that you're, you know, creating the wheel, recreating the wheel.
[10:53.330 --> 10:58.990]  Sometimes the most valuable thing you can do is find someone who is working toward a solution.
[10:59.150 --> 11:04.930]  They have an idea in mind, but they don't have either the capability or capacity to carry it there and partner with them.
[11:05.570 --> 11:05.710]  Yeah.
[11:06.150 --> 11:09.790]  Now, this initiative with Howard, you just mentioned, was that the Code the Vote initiative?
[11:10.310 --> 11:10.490]  Yes.
[11:10.610 --> 11:10.870]  It is.
[11:10.990 --> 11:11.070]  Yeah.
[11:11.730 --> 11:13.110]  Let's talk about that for a second.
[11:13.250 --> 11:14.230]  Let's just totally shift gears.
[11:15.270 --> 11:19.110]  Why don't you give us a little bit of background on that and then let's talk about who won it.
[11:19.270 --> 11:22.350]  Because I think who won it was absolutely fascinating.
[11:22.990 --> 11:23.110]  Yeah.
[11:23.510 --> 11:30.790]  So one of my pet projects since I came into the lab formally was to do a hackathon.
[11:31.090 --> 11:33.110]  I love building software.
[11:33.410 --> 11:37.070]  I think that it's one of the greatest gifts in the world is the ability to do that.
[11:37.490 --> 11:41.330]  And so we were thinking about what's the right topic space?
[11:41.350 --> 11:42.350]  Who's the right partner?
[11:43.270 --> 11:50.750]  Something that we're very conscious of is making sure that we're building with partners who share a vision with us so that we don't reduce any perverse incentives.
[11:51.650 --> 11:56.690]  So we were connected with the School of Business at Howard University.
[11:56.690 --> 12:07.190]  And they loved the idea because they were looking for new ways to promote their student body within the technology space to help support their graduates and soon-to-be graduates.
[12:07.550 --> 12:14.390]  And as I mentioned before, my driving passion is to help build up the next generation of software engineers.
[12:14.390 --> 12:16.250]  So we finally had the event.
[12:16.410 --> 12:17.510]  It was a great success.
[12:17.650 --> 12:21.470]  We expected maybe 50 submissions, participants overall.
[12:21.910 --> 12:26.670]  We had over 120 participants, over a dozen final submissions.
[12:28.030 --> 12:28.870]  And finally...
[12:30.150 --> 12:30.770]  There we go.
[12:31.950 --> 12:33.310]  I'm making you jump around here.
[12:33.610 --> 12:34.090]  Yeah, all good.
[12:34.190 --> 12:34.490]  All good.
[12:35.310 --> 12:37.770]  So we were able to crown a winner.
[12:38.230 --> 12:39.170]  Also, thanks for judging.
[12:40.110 --> 12:41.250]  Yeah, that's fine.
[12:41.830 --> 12:42.830]  It was my pleasure.
[12:42.970 --> 12:44.250]  It was a really cool thing to judge.
[12:44.250 --> 12:49.290]  Yeah, so our winning project is actually perfectly timed, I guess, for what's going on in the political climate.
[12:49.410 --> 12:49.730]  Oh, yes.
[12:50.230 --> 12:50.650]  DebateBot.
[12:51.450 --> 13:00.630]  So DebateBot takes information from the candidate's background, so their voting records, their stump speeches, their stated policy positions.
[13:01.030 --> 13:06.030]  And it puts you in the position of the debate moderator, where you get to ask the questions that are important to you.
[13:06.030 --> 13:10.410]  And it generates approximations of how the candidate would respond.
[13:11.130 --> 13:14.210]  And I thought, when I saw this, it was an amazing idea.
[13:14.470 --> 13:22.230]  I don't know how many people were at home yelling at the TV when the moderators were letting them gloss over questions and not getting substantive answers.
[13:23.310 --> 13:28.950]  Now you can finally pursue those, not only just pursue substantive answers, but about the things that are most important to you.
[13:29.550 --> 13:41.850]  And what was fascinating and terrifying to me about this is that we came up with the final winners of the Code to Vote project a couple of days, I think, before the debate, right?
[13:43.150 --> 14:00.170]  Then the debate happened, and I realized as I was watching the debate that the large language models that were essentially generating the output for what the candidates would hypothetically respond, or responding a hell of a lot better than my candidate was responding during the debate.
[14:01.830 --> 14:07.930]  It would have been better to have the output of an LLM, I think, than Joe Biden up there on the stage that particular night.
[14:08.170 --> 14:13.630]  So it was a very sad state of affairs, I think.
[14:14.190 --> 14:25.790]  But really fascinating also in terms of how you could use that type of model and that type of training, not only for a national debate, but for a local debate, for a regional debate.
[14:25.930 --> 14:39.450]  I mean, all of this is, I think, really on the cutting edge of the use of this technology for enhancing, I guess, participation in local democracies.
[14:39.870 --> 14:43.870]  Yeah, that's a really important future state for DebateBot.
[14:44.550 --> 14:52.530]  One of the things that I've learned is really important when approaching the work is to start with the most granular and well-defined problem that you can.
[14:53.510 --> 15:02.950]  I know that as an engineer, I have this big grand vision of what I want something to be in the end, and quite often will toil away at it, and that day never comes.
[15:03.150 --> 15:07.190]  So for any engineers, don't let, you know, perfect be the enemy of good enough.
[15:08.190 --> 15:16.670]  So we decided to concentrate on this one particular context, mainly because such a high-profile election has a lot of data behind it.
[15:16.670 --> 15:17.870]  It's much easier to source that.
[15:18.290 --> 15:26.770]  But the grand vision for this is to do exactly that, to take this down to the state and local levels, where policy is often discussed but really hard to surface.
[15:27.550 --> 15:35.710]  It's really hard for constituents to get the face time with their representatives to ask the questions that they want to ask, if you get an answer at all.
[15:36.370 --> 15:44.230]  And it also serves as a mechanism for local accountability, because all of the data, all of the responses are based on things that those people said.
[15:44.970 --> 15:48.750]  And so, you know, and Trump is obviously very famous for this, I didn't say that.
[15:48.750 --> 15:49.870]  No, no, you did.
[15:50.050 --> 15:52.590]  And this is exactly what you said and when you said it.
[15:52.850 --> 16:02.090]  And so we started to be able to build in a little bit stronger accountability for holding people accountable, both to their words and their actions and the delta between them.
[16:02.710 --> 16:08.170]  I mean, and you could see candidates for local political office or it doesn't matter.
[16:08.330 --> 16:14.450]  It could be for Congress, could be for the president, but using this type of system to practice for some kind of public debate as well.
[16:14.450 --> 16:15.370]  Absolutely.
[16:15.830 --> 16:27.770]  I think it's what I would really love to explore is collecting the questions that are asked and delivering those to campaigns.
[16:28.630 --> 16:36.970]  Not even so much for the strategic preparation of the debate, but for helping candidates to understand what their constituents are curious about, what their interests are.
[16:37.310 --> 16:39.230]  Because at the end of the day, they're our elected officials.
[16:39.230 --> 16:44.290]  They're supposed to be going to do our business in whatever local or state house they're going to.
[16:45.410 --> 16:48.270]  And how can we help enable them to do that?
[16:48.290 --> 16:52.090]  For those who genuinely want to pursue that route, how can we enable them to do that?
[16:52.230 --> 16:57.590]  And furthermore, how can we enable the citizenry to know who is and is not aligned with their priorities?
[16:58.110 --> 17:04.250]  There are so many local elections where candidates go unopposed and they stay in office forever.
[17:05.070 --> 17:05.970]  I'm from Illinois.
[17:06.290 --> 17:15.970]  I just now for the first time have had a second secretary of state because Jesse White has been secretary of state since I was born and he ran unopposed until he retired.
[17:17.490 --> 17:32.330]  I have no issues with him on principle, but if he had policy positions that other people disagreed with, I think it's important for them to know and either support candidates who do support the policies that they find important or in some cases become the candidates themselves.
[17:32.950 --> 17:34.510]  And this can help you do that.
[17:34.770 --> 17:35.090]  Absolutely.
[17:35.150 --> 17:35.310]  It really can.
[17:35.430 --> 17:39.210]  It can help train you and get you up to speed, I guess, on the particular issues.
[17:39.690 --> 17:40.870]  So this is a great project.
[17:41.030 --> 17:41.850]  What other projects?
[17:41.910 --> 17:46.670]  I had you skip ahead on some slides and I apologize for that, but that's just the nature of these things.
[17:46.910 --> 17:47.270]  Absolutely.
[17:47.550 --> 17:50.430]  You know, we've talked a little bit about asylum in this country.
[17:51.510 --> 17:54.370]  We do have an immigration policy crisis.
[17:54.370 --> 17:55.690]  That is absolutely the case.
[17:55.690 --> 18:00.830]  And the federal government has done effectively nothing for reasons that I think we're all familiar with.
[18:01.430 --> 18:09.310]  So what we're looking to do is how can we impact the velocity of those seeking asylum within the things we can control.
[18:09.570 --> 18:11.890]  So we're designing an AI Asylum Assistant.
[18:12.070 --> 18:20.850]  It's designed to help guide a pro se applicant from the initial what we currently do through a manual intake process through a final application.
[18:21.890 --> 18:25.250]  And we do that by collecting information, doing custom screeners.
[18:25.830 --> 18:27.650]  We're filling out the forms for them.
[18:27.830 --> 18:28.650]  We're doing validation.
[18:28.770 --> 18:33.830]  We have a human in the loop, so we're validating any applications or documents that are generated from that.
[18:34.270 --> 18:38.870]  And what we've been able to do through... well, our hypothesis of what we're able to do, I should say.
[18:39.110 --> 18:42.730]  I already dreamed that this is existing, so I'm speaking in the present tense.
[18:43.650 --> 18:51.810]  What we believe we'll be able to do is to amplify the amount of time that an attorney has so that they can talk to more clients.
[18:51.810 --> 18:58.210]  They can help more people put forth solid asylum applications so that people can pursue the Leo routes.
[18:58.670 --> 18:59.270]  That's interesting.
[18:59.430 --> 19:06.210]  So essentially using these AI systems almost as like a paralegal to free up the attorney time to work on the substantive issues.
[19:06.210 --> 19:08.090]  That's... that's really important.
[19:08.530 --> 19:08.930]  Absolutely.
[19:09.230 --> 19:13.570]  You know, there's a lot of conversation about what AI is and is not good for.
[19:14.410 --> 19:17.210]  We get a little dicey when we start getting to generative AI.
[19:17.390 --> 19:19.930]  It can be largely accurate as long as they can find good facts.
[19:20.210 --> 19:24.130]  But within this context, the questions are so... so narrowly scoped.
[19:24.670 --> 19:29.910]  And the person to whom they are based... on whom they're based is the respondent.
[19:29.910 --> 19:34.030]  Because there is a lot higher accuracy, a lot higher confidence in those responses.
[19:34.250 --> 19:37.750]  And so these are the type of things that I think we should be leveraging and pursuing.
[19:38.150 --> 19:38.770]  Very cool.
[19:38.990 --> 19:40.070]  That's very interesting.
[19:40.070 --> 19:42.130]  And I hope that it progresses.
[19:42.910 --> 19:44.890]  Are there any other projects that you want to mention?
[19:45.190 --> 19:46.130]  Are there any other projects?
[19:46.190 --> 19:47.650]  Because I know there are so many.
[19:47.890 --> 19:52.330]  There's one I really want to talk about because this will be launching this fall.
[19:53.250 --> 19:55.730]  This is our anti-democratic legislation tracker.
[19:56.530 --> 20:04.130]  We built a platform that analyzes federal and state legislation for anti-democratic trends.
[20:04.590 --> 20:10.810]  We have a list of topic spaces that we follow, such as veterans, asylum, LGBTQ issues.
[20:11.210 --> 20:19.710]  And we present those categories, again, with the hope that we're presenting information in formats that allow people to find what they're interested in looking for.
[20:20.510 --> 20:31.550]  The other piece of that same kind of debate by being an informed voter conversation is not just who your candidates are, but the policies and legislation that they are proposing.
[20:32.190 --> 20:37.550]  So, you know, if you look at a piece of legislation in the tracker, it's going to tell you who sponsored it, who co-sponsored it, and who voted for it.
[20:38.510 --> 20:46.450]  It's going to give you a synopsis of what that legislation is because bills can be hundreds of pages and not really digestible for people to read.
[20:46.770 --> 20:56.470]  So we're trying to take that extra step to not just help people find the information, but make sure it's in a format that they can digest because information you can understand is not really informative.
[20:56.790 --> 20:58.350]  And so this is launching this fall.
[20:58.950 --> 21:13.890]  This also sounds like a really difficult exercise because the historical data that you would be pulling, presumably, about who voted for what and when is likely to be unstructured across, or at least structured in different ways across different jurisdictions.
[21:14.170 --> 21:15.890]  How are you dealing with that?
[21:16.330 --> 21:16.810]  Yeah.
[21:17.150 --> 21:17.810]  How are you dealing with that?
[21:19.510 --> 21:22.110]  And we did, again, we took a step back.
[21:22.250 --> 21:26.030]  What's the most granular piece of this that we can define and attack?
[21:26.290 --> 21:27.930]  So we started with the federal system.
[21:29.070 --> 21:31.130]  Congressional structure is pretty well defined.
[21:31.130 --> 21:32.230]  We know how bills work.
[21:32.470 --> 21:34.450]  You know, the bicameral house will start in one.
[21:34.570 --> 21:35.730]  We can progress to the other.
[21:35.870 --> 21:37.310]  It goes to the executive, et cetera.
[21:37.810 --> 21:39.850]  So that was a pretty straightforward model.
[21:40.290 --> 21:47.550]  Things get really, really difficult when you start looking at, you know, the states and the district because everyone does something differently.
[21:47.750 --> 21:53.570]  Everyone uses different terminology, different availability of documents, different timing on availability and reporting.
[21:53.570 --> 22:05.050]  So we kind of generalized our legislative process into buckets based on the context of the bill and used that as our guiding principle.
[22:06.290 --> 22:12.850]  We're kind of trying to dig down to the local level as well, which is, again, exponentially more difficult.
[22:12.850 --> 22:24.090]  And so what we're doing is using the trends that we're seeing at the federal level because these things tend to extrapolate along party lines, applying that to the state level, and then we'll continue that distillation process.
[22:25.090 --> 22:30.470]  Would it eventually make things easier if there was some kind of universal standard format?
[22:30.570 --> 22:37.430]  Imagine that, you know, for government decisions that you could just import into a platform like this.
[22:37.510 --> 22:39.030]  That would be amazing, wouldn't it?
[22:39.030 --> 22:40.150]  That would be ideal.
[22:40.430 --> 22:46.430]  I almost think it's an intentional shell game of not trying to be very transparent.
[22:47.250 --> 22:52.890]  But yeah, and I think that things like that are what we should be calling for as constituents.
[22:53.770 --> 22:59.790]  I think that regardless of what side of the aisle you're on, there are very valid reasons to be disappointed in your party.
[23:00.090 --> 23:06.470]  I think that both parties have failed to be accountable to the work that they are responsible for doing.
[23:06.470 --> 23:11.030]  And it is on us to hold them accountable to that.
[23:11.170 --> 23:19.010]  And we should be asking for not only the accountability directly, but to move the direction of creating tools and systems that allow us to ensure that accountability.
[23:19.570 --> 23:25.070]  And this may push the needle maybe a little bit, maybe a lot towards that level, right?
[23:25.130 --> 23:28.710]  I mean, maybe there's even an advocacy part of this that comes after it's launched.
[23:28.710 --> 23:32.530]  People start using it and then clamoring for more access.
[23:32.830 --> 23:41.830]  You could perhaps try to push for some kind of standardization of this transparency data across governmental actions, across governmental agencies.
[23:41.990 --> 23:46.090]  Maybe start with the federal government or start with one state and move it over from port to port.
[23:46.170 --> 23:55.930]  It could be a huge game changer in terms of public accountability for what used to be private and kind of opaque democratic processes.
[23:56.690 --> 23:57.930]  So that's super cool.
[23:58.070 --> 24:00.150]  So tell us about when this is going to be rolled out.
[24:00.250 --> 24:01.430]  How can people access it?
[24:02.730 --> 24:06.210]  So the... I'm not going to give an exact date so that my comms team doesn't kill me.
[24:06.310 --> 24:07.470]  Non-binding, non-binding.
[24:07.710 --> 24:09.490]  We'll say October-ish.
[24:10.270 --> 24:11.150]  It'll be available.
[24:11.390 --> 24:17.770]  It will be on its own standalone app, but we'll be doing a large release at humanrightsverse.org when that comes out.
[24:18.090 --> 24:19.370]  That's very, very interesting.
[24:19.610 --> 24:21.470]  Any other projects that we want to talk about?
[24:21.470 --> 24:24.250]  Are we good on the projects for now?
[24:24.570 --> 24:24.690]  Okay.
[24:25.050 --> 24:26.690]  Because there are some other really cool ones, right?
[24:27.550 --> 24:28.510]  There are so many.
[24:28.730 --> 24:30.330]  We've done a lot of fine-grained work.
[24:30.510 --> 24:31.750]  We've done some larger broad work.
[24:31.870 --> 24:32.950]  We have stuff on the horizon.
[24:34.030 --> 24:36.630]  We have some exciting partnerships with people that we're working with.
[24:38.050 --> 24:47.970]  We're trying to get the meeting on the books, but we're working on trying to advance our AI models for Glimpse with some folks over at the NFL, which is a huge opportunity for us.
[24:48.610 --> 24:53.750]  The Digital Asylum Assistant, we're partnering with a company called Formally, which does this for for-profits.
[24:54.090 --> 24:55.670]  So, a lot of moving pieces.
[24:55.810 --> 25:02.130]  I think those are the ones I'm most excited about right now, and I would love for people to keep an eye out for it to engage with us in the near future.
[25:02.130 --> 25:08.170]  You know, and as a crossover to a talk last night, when we heard from Welton Chang here.
[25:08.350 --> 25:12.170]  So, Welton was actually... I think he was in this... No, he was in Merrimack.
[25:12.270 --> 25:13.250]  It was a different room.
[25:13.410 --> 25:15.410]  I was about to say he was sitting right here, but it was a different room.
[25:15.970 --> 25:17.030]  Very similar looking room.
[25:17.110 --> 25:17.650]  But he was here.
[25:18.130 --> 25:20.830]  He's the CEO of a company called Pira Technologies.
[25:21.710 --> 25:27.070]  It should be noted that Pira started in Human Rights First, which is part of the Innovation Lab.
[25:28.010 --> 25:30.070]  Do you want to talk about that in Extremis Explorer?
[25:30.210 --> 25:31.390]  Do you want to talk about that a little bit?
[25:31.390 --> 25:35.030]  Because I think that's pretty apropos for today's world.
[25:35.650 --> 25:54.690]  Yeah, so that was actually one of the first projects that I got to work with Welton on in my boot camp days, where we started looking at analyzing social media and the web about, you know, trying to find trends for mis- and disinformation, threats and violent actors,
[25:54.810 --> 25:59.510]  early detection, and surfacing that for, again, constituents.
[25:59.510 --> 26:01.790]  It's all about who's going to make use of this data, right?
[26:03.290 --> 26:06.190]  One of the... this is going to sound weird.
[26:06.290 --> 26:20.570]  One of the bright spots of my week is getting that report from Pira about what mis- and disinformation is going on, what are the trends, what are people actually talking about, and understanding what the actual public discourse is.
[26:20.570 --> 26:24.850]  Because I think that there are kind of like these three levels of public discourse.
[26:25.030 --> 26:27.530]  We have the general media set of discourse.
[26:27.770 --> 26:30.350]  We have the public-public discourse.
[26:30.390 --> 26:36.730]  And then we have the conversations that we have amongst, you know, friends and family, usually arguing over the Thanksgiving table.
[26:38.150 --> 26:50.970]  And Pira really goes a long way toward surfacing a lot of those dissonant messages, so that we can start to sort through what is real, what is concerning, what is pressing, and what is current.
[26:50.970 --> 26:51.770]  Yeah.
[26:52.310 --> 26:52.990]  And it's amazing.
[26:53.150 --> 27:02.490]  And it all started out as an initiative in the innovation lab of Human Rights First that then wound up being spun off as its own separate private entity as well.
[27:02.490 --> 27:19.790]  And that was how I got involved with Human Rights First, too, was actually helping with the detection in the DNS side of, you know, anti-Semitic domains, militia-focused domains, kind of far-right domain names, things like that, and activity within the DNS that was concerning and troubling from a, well, from lots of different standpoints.
[27:23.550 --> 27:24.310]  We'll just put it that way.
[27:24.750 --> 27:31.290]  So, I mean, really, really cool stuff and really complementary to, I think, a lot of the stuff that we were talking about last night.
[27:31.290 --> 27:39.710]  But what really comes to mind here, too, is that we're building some really interesting technologies within the innovation lab.
[27:39.870 --> 27:41.070]  You're doing really, really cool stuff.
[27:41.630 --> 27:57.090]  But it's a not-for-profit organization that relies on public donations and has a lot of expenses because it's got, like, I don't know what you call a group of lawyers, like a gaggle of lawyers, you know, working for it or something like that.
[27:57.210 --> 27:58.990]  I think the name for the group depends on who you are.
[27:59.990 --> 28:00.830]  Very well met.
[28:01.010 --> 28:01.590]  Yeah, that's true.
[28:01.850 --> 28:03.750]  What kind of law you're practicing, right?
[28:05.150 --> 28:06.550]  That would certainly make sense.
[28:07.010 --> 28:12.310]  But, you know, there's a massive number of expenses for human rights first.
[28:12.590 --> 28:16.790]  And I imagine that the innovation lab, you know, doesn't have a massive budget.
[28:16.950 --> 28:20.350]  So how are you able to navigate those issues?
[28:21.250 --> 28:23.370]  That's where we get creative.
[28:24.870 --> 28:29.430]  So, you know, there's some high-level stuff that I think is pretty obvious.
[28:29.830 --> 28:32.010]  You know, use free tiers where you can.
[28:33.950 --> 28:36.710]  Try to do as many things local first as you can.
[28:36.850 --> 28:43.410]  But when you start to look at actually proving out the value of the thing you're pursuing, that is usually not sufficient.
[28:43.410 --> 28:53.890]  So one of the things that I first look for is what other organizations that are more resourced align with what we're doing.
[28:54.230 --> 28:55.190]  Formale is a great example.
[28:55.450 --> 29:03.250]  They're a for-profit organization that does legal document preparation for clients as a paid service.
[29:03.790 --> 29:07.550]  They already have the capability of doing a lot of the things that we need to do.
[29:07.730 --> 29:12.750]  So the real question was, do they align with our mission of whom we want to serve?
[29:12.810 --> 29:14.170]  And can we then partner together?
[29:15.610 --> 29:19.170]  So step number one is finding partners and building coalitions.
[29:20.130 --> 29:26.470]  If you can build a coalition of enough partners with a little bit of resources, that can add up to a lot of resources altogether.
[29:27.570 --> 29:44.790]  Number two, and I think is a little bit more challenging to find, is using relationships with people who are trying to explore the edges of technology for the sake of exploring the edges of technology.
[29:45.090 --> 29:47.810]  You think you have a room full of those people right here.
[29:47.910 --> 29:48.190]  Yeah, hi folks.
[29:50.710 --> 29:55.310]  So, for example, okay, I'm not going to name a name.
[29:55.690 --> 30:03.090]  There is a university that wanted to kind of tease at the edges of computer vision.
[30:04.350 --> 30:12.990]  Instead of trying to work with them on our mission and focus because it was very different from their own, we looked at them more abstract.
[30:13.530 --> 30:15.510]  What have you learned in the pursuit of your work?
[30:15.510 --> 30:19.590]  Let's kind of share notes and do it that way.
[30:19.770 --> 30:24.590]  Because, again, when resources are constrained, there's two solutions to that.
[30:24.730 --> 30:25.890]  There's creativity or there's money.
[30:26.790 --> 30:27.570]  Money is great.
[30:27.730 --> 30:29.250]  If anyone wants to donate, please let me know.
[30:30.890 --> 30:38.450]  But, you know, creativity and resourcefulness and determination are the things that you kind of have to the degree that you want to put them forth.
[30:39.030 --> 30:45.910]  So I try to get creative with looking at partners who are working in the same spaces on different topics to learn from their resourcing.
[30:46.470 --> 30:52.990]  And what often happens in the pursuit of those relationships is, you know, maybe this is not a good fit for us.
[30:52.990 --> 30:53.670]  But you know what?
[30:53.810 --> 30:56.290]  I also talked to someone who's working on this problem.
[30:56.370 --> 30:58.150]  And that sounds like they're a lot closer to where you are.
[30:58.330 --> 30:59.290]  So it's building that network.
[31:00.410 --> 31:03.370]  Coalitions are so important when your resources are constrained.
[31:03.790 --> 31:12.430]  Because you need to not only build the capacity for implementing the solution, but you also want to make sure before you start spending the resources that you well understand the problem.
[31:12.930 --> 31:13.410]  Yeah.
[31:13.650 --> 31:14.210]  No doubt.
[31:14.410 --> 31:17.710]  And you mentioned one academic institution that was interested in computer vision.
[31:17.870 --> 31:20.290]  We won't name whoever it is.
[31:20.450 --> 31:23.190]  But let's talk about academic institutions in general.
[31:23.490 --> 31:26.830]  Do you find that they're good partners, difficult to approach?
[31:27.130 --> 31:28.330]  Are they, you know, useful?
[31:28.470 --> 31:36.670]  Because it seems like, you know, academia, as impractical as they may be sometimes, right, could have a lot of resources.
[31:36.890 --> 31:40.010]  You know, I teach law at King's College in London.
[31:40.010 --> 31:41.510]  We have the Digital Futures Institute.
[31:41.510 --> 31:42.390]  There's all kinds of...
[31:42.390 --> 31:51.870]  It seems like almost every university has some kind of bizarre institute that's dedicated to digital rights or innovation or something like that now.
[31:52.150 --> 31:54.330]  Is that something you've been able to tap into?
[31:54.770 --> 31:55.210]  Absolutely.
[31:55.750 --> 31:57.270]  Howard is a really great example.
[31:57.650 --> 31:57.850]  Really?
[31:58.110 --> 31:59.970]  Also, in places that you don't expect.
[32:00.230 --> 32:05.150]  When I heard about the interest from Howard, I did not expect that it was from the School of Business.
[32:06.170 --> 32:11.130]  You know, are there some tangential relations between democracy and business?
[32:11.130 --> 32:11.790]  Of course there are.
[32:11.930 --> 32:16.310]  But it's really surprised me that they were interested in supporting the effort.
[32:16.530 --> 32:20.250]  But again, it wasn't about the democracy protection piece.
[32:20.530 --> 32:25.990]  It was about the support and education of growing professionals.
[32:27.270 --> 32:32.110]  Every university, every single one from top to bottom, they want their graduates to go get placed.
[32:32.110 --> 32:35.330]  It's one of the things that people look at when deciding what school to attend.
[32:36.490 --> 32:38.370]  So, what is the thing that they can do?
[32:38.730 --> 32:43.190]  Provide them with resources that help give them demonstrable experience so they can take forth into interviews.
[32:43.650 --> 32:48.430]  Give them resources so they can start to build their networks and have people who can speak well about them.
[32:48.430 --> 32:51.390]  And the hackathon was a really great example to do that.
[32:51.970 --> 32:55.050]  We have previously had conversations with ASU.
[32:55.310 --> 32:59.390]  I have a friend who is at the University of Texas.
[33:00.130 --> 33:10.130]  There is such a large appetite from academic institutions to find ways for their students to apply what they've learned for two reasons.
[33:10.130 --> 33:16.870]  There are... there's the practitioner side where, again, you know, us hackers need to go out and actually do things so we can go get hired somewhere.
[33:17.270 --> 33:26.250]  But there's also the pure academics who need to witness and research and report on the actual implementations of the things that they've been researching.
[33:26.530 --> 33:31.970]  A lot of them don't have either the resource capacity or interest to do the implementation themselves.
[33:32.110 --> 33:34.670]  But they would absolutely love to study the implementation.
[33:35.470 --> 33:41.630]  And if you are creative enough, you can find universities that have endowments and grants for specifically those purposes.
[33:42.110 --> 33:45.930]  And it's just a matter of aligning interests and making sure that there's neutral wins.
[33:46.470 --> 33:48.410]  Yeah, that makes sense to me.
[33:48.850 --> 33:57.730]  And with these universities, I would imagine that some of the recent graduates and things would be interested, perhaps, in volunteering or something with human rights.
[33:57.730 --> 34:04.830]  First, I think it's one of the things that's important to note, too, is I'm on the Technology Advisory Board with HRF, with Human Rights First.
[34:04.970 --> 34:07.310]  I don't get paid a dime to do that.
[34:07.330 --> 34:09.410]  I do it because it's the right thing.
[34:09.570 --> 34:14.370]  Everybody on the Technology Advisory Board are interesting, accomplished technologists.
[34:14.570 --> 34:22.890]  And we all serve because we think it's the right thing to do because it will have some kind of meaningful impact that will hopefully outlast all of us.
[34:22.890 --> 34:39.970]  And so I think, you know, even if it's an unpaid capacity, being associated with an organization like Human Rights First in the Innovation Lab could be really useful for graduating undergraduates, graduating graduate students, PhDs, postdocs, you name it.
[34:40.070 --> 34:43.670]  Being associated, having that on your resume has got to be important.
[34:43.930 --> 34:45.390]  Are there opportunities for volunteers?
[34:46.770 --> 34:47.250]  Absolutely.
[34:47.250 --> 34:49.790]  We currently have one project that we've open-sourced.
[34:49.970 --> 34:51.850]  We're in the process of open sourcing several others.
[34:52.550 --> 34:56.870]  Open-source maintenance is an effort unto itself, so we're doing it very, very slowly.
[34:57.370 --> 35:02.830]  But we're always looking for people who are interested in learning more about our work, about contributing to our work.
[35:03.310 --> 35:18.710]  For people who are in the industry, I have had conversations with folks over at Meta about how they might be able to start to talk to their higher-ups and stakeholders about putting institutional resources behind some impact work that's important to their team.
[35:18.710 --> 35:23.850]  They could take all the people they're laying off and just kind of pass them over to you for internships, I guess, right?
[35:23.970 --> 35:27.330]  Yeah, that would be... Yeah, that's probably what they have in mind, I would imagine.
[35:30.310 --> 35:31.110]  That's interesting.
[35:31.350 --> 35:35.290]  I mean, these longer-term partnerships, though, let's talk a little bit about that.
[35:35.490 --> 35:42.670]  How do you establish these longer-term, effective, kind of altruistic partnerships where you have the interests aligned, the impact?
[35:43.770 --> 35:47.990]  Maybe give some examples of things that you've done over the last six years in that front.
[35:48.710 --> 35:52.430]  Yeah, so we have a really great working relationship with AWS, actually.
[35:53.690 --> 35:55.310]  We're in their nonprofit's division.
[35:55.610 --> 36:02.970]  One thing that I would definitely recommend is if you're using any cloud or distributed infrastructure, get to know who owns your account.
[36:02.990 --> 36:05.910]  Even if you're very small, it's actually on someone's account.
[36:06.170 --> 36:09.190]  Just figure out who that person is and form a relationship with them.
[36:09.330 --> 36:11.950]  They're going to be your best friend in getting unblocked on things.
[36:13.130 --> 36:23.090]  We have a really easy relationship with them where if we have a project that has very specific needs for AWS infrastructure, we just go to them with, you know, this is what we need.
[36:23.170 --> 36:28.150]  This is how having access would impact our velocity and ability to execute on this project.
[36:28.330 --> 36:33.210]  And they're actually very, very generous in supporting us with credits, with technical support, et cetera.
[36:34.310 --> 36:36.310]  We have another partner, Sixtera.
[36:37.030 --> 36:42.250]  This is another one of those examples of not the one we can talk to, but the one we can talk to.
[36:42.310 --> 36:44.470]  We were introduced to someone from NVIDIA.
[36:45.110 --> 36:48.290]  We had one of the use of some A100s for Glimpse, actually.
[36:49.050 --> 36:50.450]  I don't know if you looked at pricing on those things.
[36:50.630 --> 36:51.690]  They're pricey.
[36:52.450 --> 36:54.190]  And they weren't able to directly help us.
[36:54.190 --> 36:59.490]  However, our contact there did say, you know, hey, I have a relationship with this other company.
[36:59.690 --> 37:01.570]  They actually have some of those units.
[37:02.090 --> 37:03.810]  Maybe they'd be willing to loan them to you.
[37:04.690 --> 37:05.910]  We had a couple chats.
[37:05.910 --> 37:09.570]  We talked about the type of work that we were doing, the impact we were looking to have.
[37:09.570 --> 37:16.330]  And they very generously offered to give us pro bono access to those machines upon request.
[37:16.790 --> 37:18.130]  In perpetuity.
[37:18.990 --> 37:25.390]  Which is undeniably, you know, game changing for the Glimpse project.
[37:25.770 --> 37:29.510]  Because computer vision models are very, very, very expensive to operate.
[37:29.510 --> 37:33.810]  And having someone who's willing to provide that infrastructure for us because they believe in our mission.
[37:34.790 --> 37:39.370]  With no requests for, you know, to name drop them or accredit them.
[37:39.890 --> 37:42.970]  Just being a part of the work is huge.
[37:43.410 --> 37:48.430]  Because, you know, for people sitting in this room, you're here because you're interested in how this space works.
[37:48.430 --> 37:49.890]  And how you might be able to interact with it.
[37:50.310 --> 37:52.250]  There are other like-minded individuals out there.
[37:52.490 --> 37:55.430]  And, you know, that's why I made the comment about befriending your account manager.
[37:55.430 --> 38:03.130]  When you find those people who believe in the work that you're doing, you'd be surprised the amount of effort they're willing to put forth to help resource you.
[38:04.210 --> 38:05.530]  That's a great story.
[38:05.750 --> 38:12.390]  And, obviously, support is coming from places where you wouldn't otherwise ordinarily think that it would come.
[38:13.030 --> 38:16.410]  So, I mean, it's like the world isn't so black and white sometimes, is it?
[38:17.050 --> 38:17.810]  No, not at all.
[38:18.670 --> 38:23.010]  And one of the things I learned, and this was more on my for-profit side, but it carries over.
[38:23.770 --> 38:27.910]  Is don't be shy about the work that you're doing and the passion that you have.
[38:28.370 --> 38:32.630]  You never know who might be the person who can enable the thing that's going to unblock you most.
[38:33.470 --> 38:38.810]  I was at a gaming convention and had a conversation with an engineer.
[38:39.210 --> 38:41.990]  Helped me solve a technical problem that I was having at work.
[38:42.130 --> 38:47.490]  I was able to later give him a lead on a job that he was later hired for.
[38:47.990 --> 38:49.330]  That's a huge difference.
[38:49.530 --> 38:50.890]  And we maintain that relationship.
[38:51.170 --> 38:54.150]  And I would have never thought that that was a place where I would form that relationship.
[38:55.230 --> 38:59.350]  So you have to be willing to kind of be open about the things that are really passionate to you.
[38:59.910 --> 39:01.870]  Because otherwise, the world doesn't have any way to know that.
[39:01.870 --> 39:08.630]  And it has surprised me how much someone will, you know, that passion can be infectious.
[39:09.350 --> 39:11.670]  It can be something that someone has never, ever heard of.
[39:11.810 --> 39:17.970]  But when they see you light up and when you talk about it, they feel compelled to help you pursue that vision.
[39:17.970 --> 39:19.790]  Yeah, no doubt.
[39:20.050 --> 39:20.310]  No doubt.
[39:20.490 --> 39:22.210]  And speaking of passion here, too.
[39:22.330 --> 39:27.690]  I mean, we have a lot of people here that are obviously passionate about hacking, passion about cybersecurity.
[39:28.670 --> 39:35.450]  Tell us a little bit about how the kind of forethought that the Innovation Lab is giving to securing its products.
[39:36.310 --> 39:44.830]  And perhaps if there would be, you know, I'll just put you on the spot here, maybe opportunities at the Innovation Lab for collaboration with the hacker community.
[39:44.830 --> 39:46.070]  Yeah, absolutely.
[39:46.550 --> 39:54.630]  So one of and we're this is kind of a living document for us, but we're building a set of principles that we apply to all of our projects.
[39:54.650 --> 40:05.710]  And one of the very early ones was that we will not build or deploy a product that we have identified vulnerabilities that that would endanger someone.
[40:05.710 --> 40:17.610]  So for example, the asylum product, the various people in asylum families are in various states of legal status in the United States.
[40:17.970 --> 40:25.010]  So protecting things like their location is important to the people that they're they're, you know, interacting with could be important.
[40:25.190 --> 40:32.150]  So we look at strategies for how we can, you know, anonymize data, make sure that certain products are encrypted at rest at rest.
[40:32.830 --> 40:39.150]  We last year contracted an organization, CDI, to do an assessment of our infrastructure and practices.
[40:39.530 --> 40:43.210]  So to make sure we're following best practices, both to protect our data and our infrastructure.
[40:43.910 --> 40:47.790]  And they also gave us a lot of feedback on how we think about projects from the beginning.
[40:49.850 --> 40:54.870]  One of the things that people have have offered and I would love to explore in the future.
[40:55.770 --> 40:57.210]  I I'm a software engineer.
[40:57.330 --> 40:58.670]  I'm a web developer by trade.
[40:58.750 --> 41:00.930]  I'm not a security expert, for example.
[41:00.930 --> 41:11.890]  So getting getting counsel from people who are security, more security centered would be fantastic because that is a really key element to the work that we do.
[41:11.890 --> 41:24.690]  Something I learned last year at Octane, Octa's annual conference, that the second most targeted group of organizations are nonprofits behind state actors.
[41:25.050 --> 41:32.250]  And the reason for that is we have the information for lots of at risk and marginalized people and we're resource constrained.
[41:32.750 --> 41:36.330]  And so for, for bad actors, they see us as a juicy target.
[41:37.570 --> 41:48.350]  So having people who are doing the work and interested in the space to help us mitigate against those attacks before they happen is going to be really critical as we start to, as we continue to scale the technical work that we do in the space.
[41:48.630 --> 41:48.730]  Yeah.
[41:48.930 --> 41:50.950]  And you know, I, I should know the answer to this question, but I don't.
[41:51.090 --> 41:55.910]  So I'm going to ask you, is there any kind of bug bounty program in place at the moment?
[41:55.910 --> 41:57.510]  I would imagine probably not, right?
[41:57.650 --> 42:00.650]  Because bug bounties imply money, right?
[42:00.990 --> 42:00.990]  Yeah.
[42:01.470 --> 42:01.950]  Yeah.
[42:02.550 --> 42:06.070]  Unfortunately, no, that that's something I would really love to pursue.
[42:07.270 --> 42:12.110]  You know, when thinking about how bug bounties typically work, they're typically monetarily driven.
[42:13.250 --> 42:19.610]  But I know for, for me, the, the, the lure of the work was what drew me in.
[42:19.770 --> 42:23.510]  And I, I am making a broad assumption that there are other people who feel similarly.
[42:23.510 --> 42:35.190]  So I think that, um, having such a program where we have, you know, we have, we've built a community of partners who are willing to do this work and, and responsibly report vulnerabilities, um, would be great.
[42:35.310 --> 42:38.750]  And there might be other motivators besides, um, you know, just a check.
[42:39.510 --> 42:40.130]  No doubt.
[42:40.490 --> 42:43.210]  Or if MEDA wants to cut us a check, we'll also cut other checks.
[42:43.790 --> 42:43.990]  Yeah.
[42:43.990 --> 42:44.090]  Yeah.
[42:44.230 --> 42:44.730]  No, no doubt.
[42:44.850 --> 42:49.990]  So speaking of cutting, cutting of checks here too, you know, you, you, you sound like you're incredibly happy where you are.
[42:49.990 --> 42:51.810]  This has been a good six year journey.
[42:52.530 --> 42:57.550]  What if AWS came over to you tomorrow and said, Hey, Jason, you know, we love working with you.
[42:57.690 --> 42:58.810]  Why don't you just come work for us?
[42:58.970 --> 42:59.650]  Would you do it?
[43:00.010 --> 43:00.430]  Uh, no.
[43:00.970 --> 43:01.110]  Yeah.
[43:01.110 --> 43:06.210]  Uh, so a couple months ago, I had the privilege of going to react conf and, uh, in Las Vegas.
[43:06.730 --> 43:16.270]  And I talked to some people on the react core team over at MEDA and no one made any direct offers, but there were some insinuations that, you know, there are always opportunities.
[43:16.270 --> 43:17.250]  You should consider them.
[43:17.350 --> 43:17.830]  Would you ever?
[43:18.630 --> 43:20.350]  And it's just really not a fit for me.
[43:20.350 --> 43:32.930]  Um, one of the, the aha moments of this transition into impact work was that I am very blessed to have a skill set that is lucrative and in demand.
[43:33.290 --> 43:37.010]  So there's a low risk that I will be, that I won't be able to support my family.
[43:37.430 --> 43:42.310]  So then the balance of that question is what will I have done with my life otherwise?
[43:42.950 --> 43:45.290]  And so I, again, you know, I kind of touched on this earlier.
[43:45.350 --> 43:49.210]  I could go make a rich person richer or I could go change someone's life.
[43:49.950 --> 43:58.670]  And the, the moment that I knew that was the right course for me was, um, I just told my grandmother about, I finally found the words to explain to her what I do.
[43:58.790 --> 44:03.030]  So I explained to an 89 year old woman what an innovation lab is, very challenging.
[44:03.590 --> 44:07.030]  Um, and she hugged me and said, I'm so proud of you.
[44:08.410 --> 44:11.450]  And my, my grandmother's always kind of been my, my moral compass.
[44:11.450 --> 44:14.630]  And so hearing that from her is like, I know I'm doing the absolutely right thing.
[44:15.230 --> 44:21.210]  Um, and ever since then, um, I don't, you know, I don't consider myself any type of hero or anything out of the ordinary.
[44:21.550 --> 44:23.670]  I wake up and do what I think is the next right thing.
[44:23.870 --> 44:24.190]  I wake up.
[44:24.330 --> 44:28.770]  I mean, any 89 year old woman has seen massive changes in the world.
[44:28.830 --> 44:30.310]  And for her to say that, that's really wonderful.
[44:31.210 --> 44:32.250]  Congratulations on that, Jason.
[44:32.590 --> 44:35.170]  That's, that's, that's a success in and of itself, isn't it?
[44:35.570 --> 44:35.890]  Absolutely.
[44:36.190 --> 44:36.710]  It really is.
[44:36.810 --> 44:37.530]  That, that's wonderful.
[44:38.150 --> 44:40.830]  Look, I, I think we've got a couple of minutes left here.
[44:40.830 --> 44:49.690]  I, um, have exhausted most of the questions I think I asked you and then many more that I didn't intend to ask you and just decided to put you on the spot on a few things.
[44:50.170 --> 44:57.490]  But, um, unless there anything else you want to say, why don't we open it up to the floors if any of the audience has additional questions for Jason?
[45:04.410 --> 45:06.130]  Or you can just shout them out too.
[45:06.290 --> 45:07.690]  That's, that's totally fine too.
[45:07.830 --> 45:11.330]  And then I can repeat it if no, if anybody wants to just sit where they are.
[45:11.490 --> 45:13.830]  I understand it's a lot of effort to get up there.
[45:15.790 --> 45:16.310]  All right.
[45:16.410 --> 45:17.690]  Well, somebody's making the effort here.
[45:17.910 --> 45:18.330]  That's it.
[45:18.450 --> 45:19.530]  Somebody's making the effort here.
[45:19.530 --> 45:19.930]  I love it.
[45:26.060 --> 45:26.940]  All right.
[45:27.020 --> 45:32.660]  Hey, so, um, how will I find this legislation tracker when it comes online when it's ready?
[45:32.940 --> 45:34.560]  When it comes online when it's ready?
[45:34.980 --> 45:36.860]  Um, so a couple of options that you have.
[45:37.140 --> 45:39.540]  Um, you can go to humanrightsfirst.org.
[45:39.860 --> 45:42.300]  We'll be doing releases for all of our upcoming projects there.
[45:42.300 --> 45:44.320]  So there'll be links directly to the project.
[45:44.560 --> 45:47.800]  Um, if you want, I'll also be, uh, tweeting about it.
[45:47.880 --> 45:49.660]  So you can follow me on Twitter, connect on LinkedIn.
[45:50.020 --> 45:54.080]  You can email me, um, pretty much anywhere I am online.
[45:54.800 --> 45:55.460]  Excuse me.
[45:55.740 --> 45:59.980]  Uh, it will be proselytized from the rooftops, uh, to everyone who will listen.
[46:01.260 --> 46:01.700]  Fantastic.
[46:01.860 --> 46:01.920]  Yeah.
[46:02.120 --> 46:05.740]  I, I volunteer with Electronic Frontiers Georgia, which is a state level group.
[46:06.160 --> 46:08.040]  And that would be quite helpful.
[46:09.020 --> 46:09.700]  That's great.
[46:10.220 --> 46:11.340]  That, that's why we're here.
[46:11.340 --> 46:13.740]  This is like, you know, the type of stuff we love to hear.
[46:14.020 --> 46:15.580]  People teeing up to use the chat.
[46:15.600 --> 46:16.700]  We're actually down at the state capitol.
[46:17.280 --> 46:17.580]  Awesome.
[46:17.900 --> 46:18.000]  Wonderful.
[46:18.340 --> 46:18.700]  Awesome.
[46:18.960 --> 46:19.160]  Yeah.
[46:19.200 --> 46:19.880]  Please do reach out.
[46:19.940 --> 46:20.340]  Love to connect.
[46:20.780 --> 46:21.140]  Fantastic.
[46:21.440 --> 46:21.820]  Thank you.
[46:22.800 --> 46:23.160]  Fantastic.
[46:23.380 --> 46:23.700]  Thank you.
[46:23.780 --> 46:24.500]  And you, sir.
[46:24.720 --> 46:25.080]  Welcome.
[46:25.420 --> 46:26.700]  Hey, uh, thank you.
[46:26.780 --> 46:27.460]  And thanks for the talk.
[46:27.580 --> 46:41.220]  I was just wondering, you know, as a resource constrained organization, uh, we hear about cyber threats, especially ransomware, specifically going after, uh, you know, your kind of target because you're resource constrained, because you have that high risk data.
[46:41.340 --> 46:50.940]  So could you speak to some of the cyber threats, you know, and the top risks that you're facing and what you feel the, uh, the open community, how they could help mitigate them?
[46:51.880 --> 46:52.360]  Yeah.
[46:52.720 --> 47:01.900]  So to, to help enable and, and accelerate our work, we leverage a lot of open-source, uh, uh, packages and, and programs.
[47:02.600 --> 47:15.920]  One of the greatest supports that we've gotten from the open-source community in general, people who have never even heard of the innovation lab or humorous first, is contributing to those, those projects, helping the maintainers to patch vulnerabilities and reporting them responsibly.
[47:15.920 --> 47:19.760]  Um, that's something that we can do across the industry to help all of us.
[47:20.600 --> 47:34.840]  Um, in addition to that, um, something that I've recently become kind of, uh, notionally interested in is, um, you know, vulnerability tracing and, and doing some, um, some bug bounties myself.
[47:34.840 --> 47:41.200]  Um, you know, engaging in those processes, um, with, even with our project.
[47:41.320 --> 47:45.020]  And I'm going to say this with a million asterisks after it.
[47:45.160 --> 47:45.700]  So forgive me.
[47:46.360 --> 48:04.080]  Um, even with projects that we have deployed, um, for any responsible actor who is using and engaging in those projects, um, we would love and strongly prefer if you discreetly and privately reported any vulnerabilities you found to us.
[48:04.080 --> 48:06.820]  Um, because again, we don't have eyes everywhere.
[48:07.100 --> 48:09.140]  Um, and it's really about the incremental wins.
[48:09.340 --> 48:20.040]  So I would say that to the degree that you, you are able, um, contributing to, to open-source work to, or partnering with, uh, perhaps an impact organization that aligns with things that are important to you.
[48:20.380 --> 48:25.440]  And, and offering, you know, the, the, the service of, you know, I have this specialty.
[48:25.740 --> 48:30.740]  Um, can I, you know, can I go poke around your app and, and tell you where the vulnerabilities are?
[48:30.740 --> 48:36.200]  Can I help consult you as you're, you're planning a scope in your next project to help mitigate them before they exist?
[48:36.380 --> 48:37.980]  To help mitigate them before they exist.
[48:38.060 --> 48:38.340]  Thanks.
[48:39.240 --> 48:39.680]  Excellent.
[48:41.340 --> 48:42.860]  Sir, welcome to the microphone.
[48:43.240 --> 48:43.600]  Thank you.
[48:43.880 --> 48:45.320]  Less, uh, question more coming.
[48:45.480 --> 48:46.840]  First of all, thanks for the work you're doing.
[48:47.100 --> 48:52.860]  Uh, I work with a number of organizations in the nonprofit space from an information security perspective.
[48:52.860 --> 48:59.860]  And it's what you said, they're all pretty much shorthanded, not enough dollars in the budget, not enough hours in the day, bodies to throw at it.
[48:59.920 --> 49:05.340]  So I empathize with that struggle and a ton of respect for that.
[49:05.800 --> 49:15.540]  Um, I think the comment I wanted to make was just to reiterate and underscore what you said about, uh, you'd be surprised even in the faceless megacorps like AWS.
[49:15.540 --> 49:21.040]  They're all composed of individuals with their own varying sentiments and opinions about the world.
[49:21.160 --> 49:25.720]  And those perspectives may not align with the corporate, uh, model that's incentives.
[49:26.360 --> 49:31.040]  Um, so yeah, getting to know your account reps, getting to know all those people, all those points of contact.
[49:31.300 --> 49:33.160]  You never know what you can get for free out of those people.
[49:33.320 --> 49:33.380]  So.
[49:33.900 --> 49:34.300]  Yeah.
[49:34.580 --> 49:35.180]  Thanks again.
[49:35.680 --> 49:36.300]  Thank you.
[49:36.600 --> 49:40.860]  Um, for that at our, at our hackathon, we, uh, we went to one of our partners, Okta.
[49:40.860 --> 49:55.720]  And, uh, it, it, we weren't able to work out, uh, an actual sponsorship, but our account executive was so enthralled by the effort that he personally gave and circled around his office and several other people, uh, gave as well.
[49:55.880 --> 50:03.780]  And all of, you know, when, when the coffers are very, very bare, every little bit can actually do an astronomical amount of difference.
[50:04.380 --> 50:04.780]  Yeah.
[50:04.960 --> 50:12.340]  And to add to that too, I think, you know, leveraging, uh, things like the technology advisory board have probably been pretty helpful there too.
[50:12.500 --> 50:17.100]  If you think about, you know, I think some of the relationship from AWS comes through the NFL.
[50:17.640 --> 50:22.080]  Um, and the NFL, how are they involved with, uh, human rights first?
[50:22.300 --> 50:25.020]  Well, you know, I, I used to be the acting CISO at the NFL.
[50:25.420 --> 50:31.140]  And we have another technology advisory board member, Aaron Amendalia, who happens to be the deputy CIO of the NFL.
[50:32.200 --> 50:36.740]  Leveraging those relationships with AWS has a, you know, great impact as well.
[50:36.960 --> 50:37.080]  Yeah.
[50:37.080 --> 50:44.540]  So, you know, there's impact, I think, in a third level order, uh, which is really kind of complimentary to what you said before, right?
[50:44.700 --> 50:46.000]  Sometimes it's the friends of a friend.
[50:46.260 --> 50:46.560]  Yeah.
[50:46.660 --> 50:48.040]  That will get you to where you need to be.
[50:48.880 --> 50:48.920]  So.
[50:49.060 --> 50:49.940]  That will get you to where you need to be.
[50:50.020 --> 50:50.800]  Welcome to the mic.
[50:51.340 --> 50:51.440]  Yeah.
[50:51.620 --> 50:51.900]  Thank you.
[50:51.900 --> 51:00.100]  Um, I, I'm curious, like within the, with the context of resource constrained organizations, how do you choose what projects to move forward with?
[51:00.900 --> 51:07.100]  That's a really, really great question that, uh, I'm not gonna pretend I've perfected the answer to.
[51:07.260 --> 51:08.620]  I'll, I'll tell you some of the things we consider.
[51:09.580 --> 51:14.860]  Um, we don't really have an ROI in the traditional business sense, but we do in an impact sense.
[51:15.320 --> 51:22.760]  So some of the things that we look at is how many lives or instances can we touch by pursuing this project?
[51:23.180 --> 51:25.140]  Um, can we do it sustainably?
[51:25.320 --> 51:30.760]  Because again, as I said, sometimes the worst thing you can do is to make something available and then pull it back from an at risk person.
[51:31.300 --> 51:39.560]  Um, we also look at, does it align with our, with our larger organizational goals and ideals, uh, and priorities?
[51:39.560 --> 51:43.860]  Um, the large part of that piece is being resource constrained.
[51:44.060 --> 51:47.720]  We don't have the personnel to go off and chase a million things, however much we might love to.
[51:48.440 --> 51:50.820]  So we have to think about the efficiency of scale.
[51:50.840 --> 52:02.700]  If we have other partners in our organization who are working on, for example, asylum, like our refugee representation team, then those are dollars that we can amplify their impact by focusing on places where other dollars and effort are.
[52:06.620 --> 52:10.520]  If you ever figure out the perfect answer to that, please let me know.
[52:11.240 --> 52:18.460]  Um, because, you know, again, one thing I love about working in a human rights organization is all of us want to help people.
[52:18.740 --> 52:24.500]  All of us would do, give up our weeks, days, months, however much time it requires to change one life.
[52:25.380 --> 52:27.020]  But that's not always feasible.
[52:28.140 --> 52:40.680]  So, you know, if someone were to come up with a framework for making those decisions in ethically responsible ways, and I have to stress ethically responsible ways, I would love to know and tell me how you did it.
[52:40.980 --> 52:42.620]  I would love to know and tell me how you did it.
[52:43.220 --> 52:43.700]  Hello.
[52:44.260 --> 52:57.600]  Um, I am interested in, uh, not reinventing the wheel with resource, in resource constrained organizations and sharing, um, knowledge with each other.
[52:57.820 --> 53:00.700]  And so my question is related to that.
[53:01.020 --> 53:14.000]  And, um, recently have been thinking a lot about, um, openly licensing procedures within organizations, because a lot of people, like, informally share them amongst each other already, right?
[53:14.000 --> 53:24.860]  So I'm curious, um, because you mentioned some things, like, for instance, you mentioned, um, sort of, like, machine-readable policy at some point.
[53:25.120 --> 53:44.240]  And then, yeah, I'm just curious if you've also thought about, like, openly licensing the policies and procedures in your organization, or, like, um, how you share them online, so other organizations can adopt, potentially adopt them.
[53:44.360 --> 53:58.920]  And just, yeah, I'm just curious about, um, that kind of, I, if you could speak on, in this general area, about, um, sharing policies and procedures amongst other, like, human rights organizations.
[53:59.880 --> 54:00.320]  Sure.
[54:00.320 --> 54:01.880]  Uh, yeah, thank you for that question.
[54:02.120 --> 54:06.060]  Um, and that's actually something that I am actively considering.
[54:06.560 --> 54:11.200]  Um, you know, the Innovation Lab has gone through several, uh, iterations and evolutions.
[54:11.700 --> 54:17.420]  And so there are things that we have always done or considered that we're just now starting to codify.
[54:17.960 --> 54:33.140]  And so, you know, step one is making sure that we're codifying, uh, directives and procedures that make sense, that are responsible, that mitigate risk, that mitigate, uh, mitigate, sorry, um, unintended consequences toward the, the users and constituents.
[54:33.900 --> 54:42.480]  Once we have a little bit of our own homework done, we are looking forward to talking openly about the things that we're learning.
[54:42.760 --> 54:50.440]  And not, you know, hopefully in some part as an authoritative resource for those who are looking to, to not reinvent the wheel.
[54:50.440 --> 55:01.460]  But also to work with others who have done some of their own work to figure out what has been working for them, what is working for us, and to continue to build on that type of framework.
[55:01.840 --> 55:09.200]  Um, one of the things I was most impressed with, um, in my journey was, uh, Berkeley has a human investigations lab.
[55:09.480 --> 55:11.240]  And they have what they call the Berkeley Protocol.
[55:11.580 --> 55:17.760]  And it is a very comprehensive document for what investigations they will undertake, how they'll pursue those investigations.
[55:18.480 --> 55:33.980]  And my eventual hope is that such a document were to exist in our space, that we could use as, you know, it could be our, um, our engineering bible, as it were, when we look at projects that we undertake, and, and how we, uh, execute on those projects.
[55:35.020 --> 55:36.520]  What was the name of that last thing?
[55:36.640 --> 55:37.600]  Berkeley, what was it?
[55:37.960 --> 55:39.760]  Uh, the Berkeley Human...
[55:40.520 --> 55:42.600]  Now I'm gonna mess it up in my head, because I said it right first.
[55:42.600 --> 55:45.520]  Um, they have a human investigations lab, there it is.
[55:45.600 --> 55:46.480]  Cool, thank you so much.
[55:46.820 --> 55:47.260]  They have a human investigations lab, there it is.
[55:47.680 --> 55:48.820]  What a, what a great question.
[55:49.040 --> 56:00.660]  And I, I think it, it sounds like maybe there would be an opportunity for some kind of resource-constrained organizational workshop, perhaps at the next hope.
[56:01.340 --> 56:11.560]  That maybe somebody like you yourself could lead and share war stories and processes and procedures for dealing with these very issues with other resource-constrained organizations.
[56:11.560 --> 56:14.120]  It sounds like there's quite a few of them here in the audience.
[56:14.300 --> 56:15.140]  That would be something really cool.
[56:15.220 --> 56:15.800]  What do you think about that?
[56:16.120 --> 56:17.000]  I would love to do that.
[56:17.440 --> 56:19.180]  Um, would absolutely love to do that.
[56:19.840 --> 56:20.900]  Don't wait until next year though.
[56:21.340 --> 56:23.660]  Please do reach out if, if you fit that criteria.
[56:23.820 --> 56:29.260]  I love talking with other people who are, who are going through those, you know, facing those challenges and the solutions that they're finding.
[56:30.000 --> 56:35.860]  And, you know, and I'll, I'll say the thing that we usually don't say about, you know, impact organizations.
[56:35.860 --> 56:37.440]  The work we do is very hard.
[56:37.780 --> 56:39.960]  And some days it can feel thankless.
[56:40.600 --> 56:50.140]  Um, but one of the things that has helped me is building a community around me of other like-minded individuals who care about the work and knowing that you're not doing it by yourself.
[56:50.680 --> 57:01.540]  So even if you don't have a technical or resource constrained problem, but you feel that you're doing this thing alone and you, you know, need support, reach out to people in your network, reach out to me if you want.
[57:01.680 --> 57:04.820]  I, I absolutely would love to talk and hear about what you've learned and experienced.
[57:05.240 --> 57:07.540]  Um, don't, don't do it by yourself.
[57:08.240 --> 57:08.920]  Don't do it by yourself.
[57:08.920 --> 57:10.080]  Jason, thank you so much.
[57:10.200 --> 57:14.620]  It's very inspirational to hear you talk about this, how you arrived at this place.
[57:14.620 --> 57:16.580]  And, um, and this has your contact.
[57:16.780 --> 57:17.980]  It is giant slide information.
[57:18.380 --> 57:19.840]  This giant slide has it, I hope, right?
[57:20.740 --> 57:21.140]  Okay.
[57:21.360 --> 57:22.160]  That heads life size.
[57:22.460 --> 57:23.300]  Yeah, it really is.
[57:24.040 --> 57:25.400]  That's, that's really funny.
[57:26.060 --> 57:31.020]  Uh, Jason, thank you so much for your time today, for sharing your knowledge, your wisdom with us.
[57:31.120 --> 57:34.500]  And we'll look forward to having you back at HOPE at the next one.
[57:34.900 --> 57:35.160]  Thank you.
[57:35.260 --> 57:35.680]  Thank you, everybody.