[00:00.000 --> 00:04.800]  I'm co-designing counter-surveillance, yes, with Sasha and Emi.
[00:04.960 --> 00:05.200]  Welcome.
[00:09.700 --> 00:12.340]  Hello, starting off to a great start.
[00:13.520 --> 00:18.780]  Hi, so thanks everybody for sticking with us at this hour.
[00:18.880 --> 00:20.380]  I know it got pushed back even another hour.
[00:20.800 --> 00:22.500]  I'm Sasha Costanza-Chock.
[00:22.800 --> 00:28.680]  I'm assistant professor of civic media at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, and I do much of other stuff.
[00:29.680 --> 00:30.680]  And this is Emi.
[00:31.560 --> 00:32.360]  I'm Emi.
[00:32.540 --> 00:34.560]  I am a community organizer.
[00:35.440 --> 00:43.380]  I work with a group called Insight, Women of Color Against Violence, and the Allied Media Projects in Detroit.
[00:44.340 --> 00:45.740]  Can we get this a little closer here?
[00:50.440 --> 00:50.980]  Okay.
[00:51.300 --> 00:51.500]  Cool.
[00:53.260 --> 00:55.160]  Yeah, so some other things that we do.
[00:55.460 --> 00:59.620]  I'm a professor in comparative media studies at MIT, a fellow at Berkman.
[00:59.620 --> 01:02.580]  And we're both on the board of Allied Media Projects.
[01:02.860 --> 01:07.800]  If you don't know about Allied Media Projects, you should check out alliedmedia.org.
[01:07.920 --> 01:08.800]  Allied Media.
[01:09.100 --> 01:17.360]  It's an amazing conference of activists and media makers and cultural workers from around the country and around the world.
[01:17.360 --> 01:22.380]  2,000 people come together in Detroit every year, and you definitely want to check out Allied Media Conference.
[01:24.360 --> 01:27.740]  So this is what we're going to do today in co-designing counter surveillance.
[01:28.920 --> 01:30.720]  We are at item one.
[01:30.900 --> 01:31.960]  I guess it should have been item zero.
[01:32.320 --> 01:32.840]  Sorry.
[01:33.500 --> 01:37.780]  We're going to kick off, actually, with some small group breakouts.
[01:37.780 --> 01:45.260]  So we've noticed that here at HOPE X, pretty much everything is people talking at you, unless you're down in the hardware workshop space.
[01:45.380 --> 01:53.420]  And we don't typically like to do workshops that way, so we want to actually have you turn to the two or three people near you.
[01:53.420 --> 01:58.680]  And you're in an uncomfortable arrangement to do that with your chairs, so you might need to spin your chairs around a little bit.
[01:59.300 --> 02:08.800]  And we're actually going to talk to each other for a few minutes here about surveillance before we jump into the overview of the counter-designed...
[02:08.800 --> 02:13.300]  Sorry, the counter-surveillance projects that we designed in the co-design studio at MIT.
[02:15.220 --> 02:16.420]  So do that now.
[02:16.580 --> 02:18.820]  Turn to the person next to you or the two people next to you.
[02:19.060 --> 02:20.260]  You might need to move a chair.
[02:21.100 --> 02:23.660]  We might want to be in groups of like a minimum of three.
[02:23.680 --> 02:24.220]  Groups of three.
[02:24.500 --> 02:25.400]  At least three.
[02:25.400 --> 02:25.740]  At least three people.
[02:26.140 --> 02:27.060]  What is our question?
[02:27.720 --> 02:28.540]  We'll give it to you.
[02:28.560 --> 02:30.200]  We'll give you your question when the time is right.
[02:30.440 --> 02:31.620]  Yeah, make it annoy.
[02:37.500 --> 02:39.460]  Groups of at least three people will be good.
[02:40.920 --> 02:42.160]  People are like...
[02:45.140 --> 02:45.760]  Okay, great.
[02:45.940 --> 02:47.340]  Three to five people is good.
[02:47.340 --> 02:47.660]  Yeah.
[02:49.060 --> 02:49.560]  Okay.
[02:49.840 --> 02:49.940]  Great.
[02:50.840 --> 02:51.360]  So...
[02:51.360 --> 02:52.460]  We're going to give you your question.
[02:52.640 --> 02:53.300]  Are you going to turn it?
[02:53.860 --> 02:54.680]  Let's flip it.
[02:55.280 --> 02:55.520]  Okay.
[02:55.700 --> 02:57.000]  So in your groups...
[02:57.780 --> 02:58.580]  Say hi.
[02:59.200 --> 02:59.640]  Hi.
[02:59.900 --> 03:00.500]  Okay, great.
[03:01.460 --> 03:03.660]  The first question we want you to take...
[03:03.660 --> 03:05.260]  Each person to take...
[03:05.260 --> 03:05.660]  I don't know.
[03:05.920 --> 03:06.540]  One minute.
[03:06.680 --> 03:10.840]  One minute to describe how you have personally experienced surveillance.
[03:10.840 --> 03:16.400]  So if you need a second to think about it, then go around in a circle and each person's share.
[03:16.540 --> 03:17.840]  And we're just going to...
[03:17.840 --> 03:18.160]  Yeah.
[03:18.700 --> 03:19.580]  One minute each.
[03:19.840 --> 03:20.080]  Mm-hmm.
[03:20.160 --> 03:21.560]  So about four or five minutes per group.
[03:22.160 --> 03:22.240]  Yeah.
[03:22.480 --> 03:22.720]  Total.
[03:23.620 --> 03:24.960]  So and really give each...
[03:24.960 --> 03:27.800]  Give each person a chance to describe that a little bit personally.
[03:28.060 --> 03:32.220]  So your name and an experience that you've had personally with surveillance.
[03:37.280 --> 03:37.640]  Like...
[03:37.640 --> 03:37.800]  Like...
[03:37.800 --> 03:39.700]  Maybe we should time them on this one.
[03:39.700 --> 03:40.020]  Time them, yeah.
[03:40.480 --> 03:40.640]  Yeah.
[03:41.700 --> 03:43.160]  So we'll be timing every one minute.
[03:43.320 --> 03:45.240]  I'm going to raise my hand so you know it's time to switch.
[03:45.280 --> 03:45.440]  Okay?
[03:50.400 --> 03:50.920]  That's great.
[03:51.100 --> 03:52.040]  Some people are not talking.
[03:53.460 --> 03:53.820]  Right.
[04:03.090 --> 04:05.390]  I love how I started by spilling water all over everything.
[04:07.150 --> 04:08.590]  It's 11 o'clock at night.
[04:11.010 --> 04:11.730]  I'm exhausted.
[04:12.070 --> 04:13.470]  I got woken up this morning at 7 a.m.
[04:13.470 --> 04:14.250]  by a four-year-old.
[04:14.250 --> 04:15.890]  Like, I'm so tired.
[04:24.590 --> 04:27.240]  30 more seconds for the first person to finish.
[04:47.500 --> 04:48.060]  It's cool.
[04:48.160 --> 04:48.820]  People are actually talking.
[04:49.420 --> 04:49.860]  Nice.
[04:54.070 --> 04:57.740]  Okay, it's time to switch to the next person.
[04:57.980 --> 04:58.780]  Sorry to cut you off.
[04:58.970 --> 05:00.730]  But we want to do a go-around.
[05:06.340 --> 05:08.620]  The second question, probably not.
[05:10.420 --> 05:11.960]  What's the second question again?
[05:13.780 --> 05:15.000]  What makes you feel secure?
[05:15.720 --> 05:16.740]  But we want it valid.
[05:18.080 --> 05:19.220]  Oh, you mean like report back?
[05:19.700 --> 05:21.240]  Well, no, because we have another question.
[05:21.380 --> 05:22.320]  What makes you feel secure?
[05:22.700 --> 05:23.200]  Mm-hmm.
[05:23.200 --> 05:24.180]  I'm just finding this.
[05:24.640 --> 05:25.240]  Five minutes each.
[05:25.580 --> 05:27.280]  Okay, so five minutes for each group.
[05:27.520 --> 05:34.740]  And then do you want to do like 60, 90 seconds of people shouting back things I hear from this?
[05:34.880 --> 05:36.980]  And say, okay, we're going to have to shout back a couple of things.
[05:37.240 --> 05:37.920]  We're going to take notes on it.
[05:37.920 --> 05:40.960]  And then we want to ask questions for the same thing again.
[05:42.940 --> 05:45.700]  No, let's just do one group shot back again.
[05:46.180 --> 05:47.560]  Yeah, we just started getting a group.
[05:47.780 --> 05:48.500]  Getting a group, yeah.
[05:49.380 --> 05:50.380]  The question's up there.
[05:52.480 --> 05:53.940]  Okay, almost time to switch.
[05:54.680 --> 05:56.840]  Okay, almost time to switch to the next person.
[06:03.540 --> 06:07.300]  Okay, if you haven't already, please move to the next person in your group.
[06:09.020 --> 06:11.520]  I'm giving them like a couple of seconds extra on each other.
[06:15.560 --> 06:17.860]  Some of them are like two minutes ago.
[06:32.670 --> 06:34.490]  We're hacking the format of HOPE X.
[06:34.690 --> 06:35.030]  Nice.
[06:41.500 --> 06:41.940]  Hi.
[06:42.040 --> 06:43.640]  Yeah, pick a group.
[06:43.980 --> 06:45.160]  It doesn't have too many people here.
[06:46.580 --> 06:47.500]  I think I think so.
[06:54.040 --> 06:55.960]  I love that Evan's in a group, that guy's drunk.
[06:56.620 --> 06:57.580]  Who's that guy with the Internet?
[06:58.100 --> 06:58.460]  What?
[06:58.640 --> 07:00.320]  Do you know that guy who just kind of used to work?
[07:00.440 --> 07:01.340]  His face is pretty red.
[07:01.660 --> 07:01.880]  Huh?
[07:02.080 --> 07:02.800]  He's really good.
[07:02.980 --> 07:03.400]  Oh, nice.
[07:10.780 --> 07:11.140]  Yeah.
[07:12.200 --> 07:12.960]  How many has it been?
[07:13.100 --> 07:13.280]  Three?
[07:13.540 --> 07:14.100]  Three, yeah.
[07:14.260 --> 07:14.920]  A couple more.
[07:15.080 --> 07:18.000]  If you haven't already, switch to the next person.
[07:25.780 --> 07:27.680]  Maybe you should say they don't hear a woman's voice.
[07:28.060 --> 07:28.140]  What?
[07:28.140 --> 07:29.920]  Do you know this study about how like...
[07:29.920 --> 07:30.920]  How people listen to him?
[07:31.140 --> 07:32.040]  They don't hear a man's voice.
[07:33.420 --> 07:34.280]  I'll give them a minute.
[07:42.490 --> 07:44.990]  Do you think it's better to share back first and then do the second question?
[07:45.150 --> 07:46.890]  I think we should because then it's all in people's minds.
[07:47.130 --> 07:47.290]  Okay.
[07:47.650 --> 07:49.910]  So just say like, each group shout out one thing.
[07:50.370 --> 07:51.550]  Or shout out...
[07:51.550 --> 07:53.110]  You get ten seconds.
[07:53.390 --> 07:55.130]  Just shout a bunch of stuff out that you heard.
[07:56.830 --> 07:57.930]  How many groups have I heard?
[07:58.610 --> 08:01.670]  One, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight.
[08:02.470 --> 08:02.510]  Eight.
[08:04.050 --> 08:05.670]  We can do it in like two minutes, I think.
[08:05.710 --> 08:06.010]  Three minutes.
[08:06.350 --> 08:06.530]  They can do...
[08:06.530 --> 08:08.010]  They can tweet length summaries.
[08:08.410 --> 08:08.530]  Yeah.
[08:08.930 --> 08:09.190]  Nice.
[08:12.730 --> 08:13.930]  Just have some themes here.
[08:14.110 --> 08:18.990]  And prepare to switch to the next and possibly final person in your group.
[08:20.390 --> 08:20.710]  Now.
[08:22.410 --> 08:22.730]  Switch.
[08:26.590 --> 08:27.010]  All right.
[08:27.230 --> 08:27.750]  So we'll do...
[08:27.750 --> 08:28.950]  It's probably the last one now.
[08:29.170 --> 08:29.910]  This is the last one.
[08:30.930 --> 08:32.590]  I mean, one, two, three, four, five, six, seven.
[08:32.630 --> 08:35.970]  So your groups are of various sizes, but this is going to be the last minute that you have.
[08:36.170 --> 08:38.910]  So anyone in your group who has not spoken yet should speak now.
[08:42.370 --> 08:43.570]  Mark just shushed you.
[08:48.090 --> 08:55.110]  I mean, sometimes groups really need that actual cue to switch, otherwise one person talks the whole time and it's crazy.
[09:13.640 --> 09:15.060]  This is so funny.
[09:19.280 --> 09:19.600]  Okay.
[09:19.600 --> 09:22.960]  This is my life now that we go to like techie conferences and talk about something.
[09:23.020 --> 09:25.160]  I was like, what is this world?
[09:25.340 --> 09:25.520]  Yeah.
[09:26.180 --> 09:26.500]  Okay.
[09:26.620 --> 09:26.860]  It's ending.
[09:28.160 --> 09:28.480]  Okay.
[09:28.580 --> 09:29.740]  I'll beat Bucks to end it.
[09:30.960 --> 09:31.280]  Okay.
[09:31.280 --> 09:31.720]  If you want to.
[09:36.120 --> 09:36.440]  Okay.
[09:36.540 --> 09:38.400]  That is the signal that you need to stop.
[09:38.820 --> 09:39.880]  You need to stop talking.
[09:40.060 --> 09:43.420]  I know that you all have a lot of experience with surveillance and we do want to hear a little bit about that.
[09:43.600 --> 09:54.640]  So what we're going to do now is very, very quickly, we're going to go around in each group, you have a tweet length sentence to summarize one of the interesting experiences that someone shared.
[09:54.960 --> 09:57.360]  So in a tweet, we'll start over here with this group.
[09:57.640 --> 10:00.320]  Or all of the experiences if you can do it tweet length.
[10:01.480 --> 10:01.820]  Again?
[10:01.940 --> 10:02.140]  Sorry?
[10:04.120 --> 10:05.000]  Can you say that again?
[10:05.180 --> 10:06.800]  He bugged his mother's phone.
[10:07.120 --> 10:07.480]  Okay.
[10:07.660 --> 10:09.360]  He personally bugged his mother's phone.
[10:09.460 --> 10:09.680]  Awesome.
[10:09.820 --> 10:09.980]  Okay.
[10:10.160 --> 10:11.260]  How about this group over here?
[10:18.830 --> 10:19.550]  A reporter.
[10:21.750 --> 10:23.730]  Can you speak a little bit louder so people can hear you?
[10:23.930 --> 10:24.170]  Oh, sure.
[10:24.290 --> 10:26.230]  My phone is Matt's phone and office.
[10:33.470 --> 10:33.870]  Okay.
[10:33.990 --> 10:34.830]  That's more like a Tumblr.
[10:35.090 --> 10:35.370]  So, okay.
[10:35.690 --> 10:35.750]  Awesome.
[10:36.670 --> 10:37.070]  That's...
[10:38.050 --> 10:44.370]  Clearly, my friend likes to call and turn on the local locator on my cell phone.
[10:46.310 --> 10:47.070]  Great example.
[10:47.410 --> 10:48.730]  How about this group in the back here?
[11:01.740 --> 11:02.400]  Another group?
[11:08.890 --> 11:11.230]  Growing up in London or D.C.
[11:11.370 --> 11:13.450]  Having security cameras on every corner?
[11:13.850 --> 11:15.430]  Growing up in London or D.C.
[11:15.570 --> 11:17.630]  Having security cameras on every corner.
[11:19.450 --> 11:20.310]  Any other...
[11:21.130 --> 11:22.010]  Any other group?
[11:22.170 --> 11:22.890]  Over here, maybe?
[11:23.830 --> 11:24.190]  Petrie?
[11:25.570 --> 11:26.130]  Um...
[11:26.790 --> 11:38.350]  I've been finding out through a friend of a friend who worked at a photovolting place that the police were taking pictures of our trash and the flyers that they found in our cell phone.
[11:38.890 --> 11:42.050]  Police digging through your trash for your flyers.
[11:42.450 --> 11:42.550]  Yeah.
[11:42.550 --> 11:44.030]  And this group here.
[11:44.230 --> 11:48.260]  How many of you...
[11:48.260 --> 11:49.680]  How many of you...
[11:49.680 --> 11:50.120]  How many of you...
[11:50.120 --> 11:51.200]  They weren't fine.
[11:51.600 --> 11:53.980]  Your neighbors could listen to your phone call.
[11:54.260 --> 11:54.540]  Okay.
[11:54.620 --> 11:57.840]  Neighbors listening in to your party line conversations.
[11:58.100 --> 11:58.960]  900 megahertz.
[11:59.440 --> 12:00.500]  At 900 megahertz.
[12:00.800 --> 12:01.160]  Okay.
[12:02.040 --> 12:02.560]  Um...
[12:03.640 --> 12:04.960]  We are now...
[12:04.960 --> 12:05.660]  We got one more.
[12:05.720 --> 12:05.900]  Whoa.
[12:05.920 --> 12:06.280]  One more.
[12:06.360 --> 12:06.740]  One more group.
[12:06.840 --> 12:07.040]  Sorry.
[12:07.260 --> 12:08.060]  Shout it out.
[12:08.200 --> 12:08.540]  Shout it out.
[12:10.060 --> 12:11.260]  We plead the fifth.
[12:21.950 --> 12:22.550]  I'm sorry.
[12:22.670 --> 12:24.070]  Can you say that a little bit louder and shorter?
[12:25.630 --> 12:26.350]  I'm sorry.
[12:26.530 --> 12:30.850]  I said I used to work at a hardware manufacturing company.
[12:31.450 --> 12:31.930]  Um...
[12:31.930 --> 12:34.750]  And I had an interesting experience by NSA.
[12:36.170 --> 12:37.550]  Like with their interceptor.
[12:37.930 --> 12:38.250]  Okay.
[12:38.450 --> 12:39.510]  NSA interceptor.
[12:39.610 --> 12:40.450]  Your hardware company.
[12:40.990 --> 12:41.470]  Cool.
[12:42.710 --> 12:43.310]  Go ahead.
[12:43.430 --> 12:43.830]  So next.
[12:44.810 --> 12:46.790]  So we're going to do another one of these, I know.
[12:47.770 --> 12:48.350]  It's late.
[12:48.470 --> 12:48.950]  It's late.
[12:49.850 --> 12:50.290]  But...
[12:50.290 --> 12:51.170]  We're trying to break things up.
[12:51.870 --> 12:52.310]  But it's important.
[12:52.390 --> 12:52.830]  Um...
[12:52.830 --> 12:57.670]  So this last question, second and last question, is what makes you feel secure?
[12:58.450 --> 13:01.010]  And we would like the same sort of thing.
[13:01.150 --> 13:01.950]  Maybe a little bit shorter.
[13:02.030 --> 13:03.130]  Maybe 45 seconds each.
[13:04.330 --> 13:05.150]  So take...
[13:05.150 --> 13:07.030]  We'll give you like 30 seconds to think about it.
[13:07.610 --> 13:08.470]  And go around.
[13:08.830 --> 13:09.030]  Okay?
[13:13.820 --> 13:14.260]  Oops.
[13:14.340 --> 13:15.080]  That's 45 minutes.
[13:15.280 --> 13:17.000]  We can do this one less structured.
[13:17.280 --> 13:18.560]  So we just give them all...
[13:19.580 --> 13:21.720]  Oh, should we just do like five minutes and not tell them?
[13:22.240 --> 13:23.200]  Or even four...
[13:23.200 --> 13:23.640]  Four minutes.
[13:24.180 --> 13:24.460]  Okay.
[13:25.040 --> 13:25.320]  Okay.
[13:25.500 --> 13:27.880]  So we're just going to give you four minutes and we're not going to signal.
[13:28.220 --> 13:29.720]  If someone objects to that, let us know.
[13:29.920 --> 13:30.520]  We're all adults.
[13:30.660 --> 13:33.040]  We'll leave it up to you to make sure that everyone in your group gets to share a little bit.
[13:33.260 --> 13:33.640]  Four minutes.
[13:52.570 --> 13:56.610]  I like how we didn't even attempt to put times on any of our items.
[13:58.270 --> 13:59.090]  We didn't have time.
[13:59.230 --> 13:59.990]  We had 30 minutes.
[14:00.390 --> 14:01.170]  We filmed this again.
[14:01.850 --> 14:02.490]  It's okay.
[14:03.510 --> 14:06.210]  We started like 10 or 15 minutes late, right?
[14:06.930 --> 14:07.930]  About 10 minutes late.
[14:10.390 --> 14:11.390]  It's interesting.
[14:11.610 --> 14:13.450]  I don't know this audience that well.
[14:13.770 --> 14:14.450]  I can guess.
[14:14.850 --> 14:15.630]  But this is even...
[14:15.630 --> 14:16.550]  This is...
[14:19.250 --> 14:20.830]  Kind of a DKG type.
[14:22.030 --> 14:23.310]  Or like...
[14:24.090 --> 14:25.490]  People kind of rise up.
[14:25.610 --> 14:27.150]  They're total nerds.
[14:27.310 --> 14:30.150]  But they're sort of like...
[14:30.150 --> 14:30.170]  Right?
[14:31.230 --> 14:31.870]  Yeah.
[14:31.970 --> 14:33.930]  There's like a subset of our crew here.
[14:34.190 --> 14:35.050]  But it's not the majority.
[14:35.490 --> 14:35.830]  Right.
[14:36.030 --> 14:36.110]  Right.
[14:36.290 --> 14:36.630]  It's the majority.
[14:37.310 --> 14:39.010]  And then LightsCon was like...
[14:39.010 --> 14:40.590]  Big ass NGOs.
[14:41.030 --> 14:41.190]  Right.
[14:41.390 --> 14:41.430]  Right.
[14:43.190 --> 14:46.870]  So how long is your summary of points going to be?
[14:47.950 --> 14:48.770]  I don't know.
[14:48.990 --> 14:50.410]  Like three or five minutes kind of thing.
[14:50.510 --> 14:50.770]  I think three or five minutes.
[14:50.850 --> 14:50.990]  Cool.
[14:51.170 --> 14:51.630]  Is that okay?
[14:51.950 --> 14:52.110]  Yeah.
[14:52.150 --> 14:52.330]  Totally.
[14:53.930 --> 14:55.570]  And that'll give me like...
[14:56.530 --> 14:58.550]  20 minutes for the project.
[14:58.690 --> 14:59.150]  Or like $6.
[14:59.470 --> 14:59.870]  I guess...
[14:59.870 --> 15:00.150]  At least.
[15:00.150 --> 15:01.190]  Some of them I'll just...
[15:01.730 --> 15:02.370]  Barely touch on.
[15:02.590 --> 15:04.530]  And then a couple others I'll go into a little bit more.
[15:05.350 --> 15:06.070]  And then...
[15:06.070 --> 15:08.050]  We'll just talk about like...
[15:08.050 --> 15:11.310]  How can you work with community-based groups?
[15:11.410 --> 15:12.910]  So what was the description of this for people?
[15:13.010 --> 15:13.550]  What did they see?
[15:15.330 --> 15:15.690]  Um...
[15:15.690 --> 15:15.850]  Yeah.
[15:15.950 --> 15:18.230]  I mean it was just basically about like...
[15:18.810 --> 15:19.170]  Intersecting...
[15:19.170 --> 15:20.150]  Systems of surveillance...
[15:21.270 --> 15:22.990]  That we don't pay attention to all easily.
[15:23.490 --> 15:23.850]  And...
[15:23.850 --> 15:24.990]  And it was like...
[15:24.990 --> 15:26.630]  Co-design is an approach to...
[15:26.630 --> 15:26.930]  To deal with this.
[15:27.010 --> 15:29.290]  But the description didn't have the description of that whole project.
[15:29.290 --> 15:29.890]  Mm-hmm.
[15:30.850 --> 15:31.210]  So...
[15:31.210 --> 15:31.990]  I mean I'm...
[15:31.990 --> 15:32.930]  I'm just gonna like...
[15:32.930 --> 15:34.050]  Quickly run through the...
[15:34.050 --> 15:35.330]  Projects in Canada class.
[15:35.510 --> 15:36.130]  And each...
[15:36.130 --> 15:37.310]  There's actually this...
[15:37.310 --> 15:38.030]  There's a...
[15:38.650 --> 15:40.430]  There's a presentation for each project.
[15:40.970 --> 15:41.050]  Mm-hmm.
[15:41.050 --> 15:42.510]  But I'm not gonna do a full one.
[15:42.570 --> 15:43.250]  I'm just gonna like...
[15:43.250 --> 15:44.610]  Show a couple slides for each presentation.
[15:45.110 --> 15:46.350]  And give people the gist of it.
[15:46.410 --> 15:47.230]  Maybe go a little deeper.
[15:47.410 --> 15:48.330]  And do one or two.
[15:48.650 --> 15:49.150]  And then...
[15:49.150 --> 15:51.290]  Tell them they can find out more on the...
[15:52.670 --> 15:53.170]  website.
[15:54.030 --> 15:54.690]  Mm-hmm.
[15:56.570 --> 15:57.330]  And then I have some like...
[15:57.330 --> 15:57.850]  Closing plans.
[15:59.470 --> 16:02.540]  And then...
[16:02.540 --> 16:03.920]  How much longer do they have?
[16:04.080 --> 16:04.340]  Dude.
[16:06.940 --> 16:07.680]  One minute.
[16:07.860 --> 16:08.260]  Okay.
[16:08.400 --> 16:09.660]  You have one minute left.
[16:13.480 --> 16:15.140]  What makes you feel secure?
[16:15.880 --> 16:16.700]  Think about it.
[16:20.390 --> 16:21.430]  I'm curious to know what...
[16:21.430 --> 16:22.770]  The people who said they have like...
[16:22.770 --> 16:23.110]  Human rights.
[16:23.290 --> 16:24.590]  I don't know what they were talking about.
[16:24.790 --> 16:25.630]  They're saying they have like...
[16:25.630 --> 16:26.670]  Some serious human rights issues.
[16:27.050 --> 16:27.530]  What we're dealing with.
[16:27.710 --> 16:27.830]  Right.
[16:30.010 --> 16:30.790]  This group of men.
[16:31.170 --> 16:31.690]  I don't think.
[16:35.350 --> 16:35.790]  I can't.
[16:35.790 --> 16:36.650]  They can't hear me.
[16:40.650 --> 16:41.210]  I don't...
[16:41.210 --> 16:41.890]  I lost...
[16:47.930 --> 16:48.550]  What's that?
[16:49.010 --> 16:49.890]  It's this app.
[16:50.130 --> 16:54.890]  Tell me what your cell phone is connected to a fake cell phone tower that came out of the partnership with ACLU MA.
[16:55.150 --> 16:55.350]  Yeah.
[16:56.010 --> 16:56.450]  Awesome.
[16:57.130 --> 16:57.930]  With Cade?
[16:58.690 --> 16:59.090]  That's awesome.
[17:00.910 --> 17:01.910]  30 seconds!
[17:07.650 --> 17:13.510]  Do you have people yell out one word answers on what makes you feel secure?
[17:14.830 --> 17:15.590]  Or not at all?
[17:16.450 --> 17:17.010]  Whoa!
[17:17.310 --> 17:18.310]  Jesus Christ, my dad.
[17:25.800 --> 17:26.360]  Alright.
[17:27.440 --> 17:28.120]  We're done.
[17:28.580 --> 17:28.940]  Okay.
[17:41.560 --> 17:42.340]  You're done.
[17:42.560 --> 17:43.040]  That's it.
[17:43.200 --> 17:43.360]  Stop.
[17:44.120 --> 17:47.560]  So now just popcorn out some of what people came up with.
[17:48.080 --> 17:51.820]  Popcorn means you just shout it out when the spirit moves you.
[17:55.440 --> 17:56.260]  What's that?
[17:56.480 --> 17:58.340]  Bank insurance.
[17:58.980 --> 18:00.460]  Multiple identity.
[18:02.960 --> 18:04.320]  Plausible deniability.
[18:04.380 --> 18:05.540]  Oh, plausible deniability.
[18:05.780 --> 18:07.160]  That's even better than multiple identity.
[18:07.620 --> 18:08.960]  Brain sticks and...
[18:10.720 --> 18:12.360]  Backup tapes.
[18:12.920 --> 18:13.080]  Nice.
[18:13.320 --> 18:14.040]  Having root.
[18:14.660 --> 18:15.300]  Having root.
[18:16.260 --> 18:17.260]  Strength in numbers.
[18:17.860 --> 18:19.780]  Strength in numbers and what was this one?
[18:20.900 --> 18:21.980]  Deadbolt locks.
[18:24.040 --> 18:25.360]  Family and...
[18:25.360 --> 18:26.100]  Conscious threat modeling.
[18:26.680 --> 18:27.700]  Conscious threat modeling.
[18:28.960 --> 18:29.840]  Nothing.
[18:31.460 --> 18:33.080]  Infinite resources.
[18:33.980 --> 18:35.340]  Infinite resources?
[18:35.560 --> 18:36.040]  No, finite.
[18:36.480 --> 18:37.180]  Oh, okay.
[18:37.860 --> 18:38.880]  What did you say?
[18:39.040 --> 18:40.080]  Mafia connections.
[18:42.700 --> 18:44.020]  Mafia connections.
[18:44.840 --> 18:46.020]  Mafia collections.
[18:46.440 --> 18:46.460]  today.
[18:46.460 --> 18:46.460]  Yeah.
[18:47.120 --> 18:48.300]  I don't know what that means.
[18:49.320 --> 18:49.800]  Okay.
[18:51.760 --> 18:52.240]  Okay.
[18:54.000 --> 18:54.720]  Okay, cool.
[18:54.980 --> 18:59.580]  So the purpose of that exercise, I mean, hopefully you just had some good conversations.
[19:00.560 --> 19:16.080]  But we are just trying to point out that even in this room, people have differential needs based on sort of the different needs for safety and what makes them feel secure based on the different ways that they've experienced surveillance.
[19:16.080 --> 19:19.800]  It seems pretty obvious, but sort of fundamental to what we're going to talk about.
[19:21.020 --> 19:27.060]  So I'm just going to introduce myself and talk a little bit about sort of framing how this work has happened.
[19:28.260 --> 19:30.220]  I come from a community organizing background.
[19:30.380 --> 19:31.060]  I'm not a techie.
[19:31.240 --> 19:31.720]  I'm not a hacker.
[19:31.940 --> 19:32.980]  I'm at a hacker conference.
[19:33.120 --> 19:33.640]  I am not one.
[19:35.760 --> 19:37.140]  That's why we'll get out of the way.
[19:37.520 --> 19:37.860]  Right.
[19:38.620 --> 19:50.600]  But so I guess, you know, in the work that I've done doing community organizing, we have been talking about the issue of surveillance for a really long time.
[19:51.420 --> 19:55.800]  It's nothing new, I guess, to people who are doing social movement work.
[19:56.460 --> 19:59.520]  If you look at something like COINTELPRO or something like that, right?
[19:59.620 --> 20:02.740]  So we have this sort of historical context that's been proven.
[20:04.000 --> 20:13.500]  And then sort of when this issue became more of part of the sort of national conversation, people I worked with got really excited because we thought, okay, this is great.
[20:13.500 --> 20:17.140]  We'll have a lot more people who are talking about the issue.
[20:17.580 --> 20:24.840]  We can finally connect with some of the people who have been building tools and working on solutions to some of these concerns.
[20:27.600 --> 20:38.860]  And so we discovered through that process of sort of reaching out to different groups who are working on mostly tech-based solutions to these concerns, that there is a gap in conversation.
[20:40.580 --> 20:54.500]  You know, in the work that I've done and the organizations I work with, the communities I work with, my own communities, the way that surveillance shows up is sort of, you know, you have to pee in a cup to get your welfare check.
[20:54.700 --> 20:56.080]  You need your welfare check to survive.
[20:56.860 --> 21:03.740]  So when you talk about biometric data, right, they're collecting a database of biometric data of poor people in the United States.
[21:03.980 --> 21:07.080]  It's been happening for a long time, but we need to do that to survive.
[21:09.100 --> 21:13.940]  And, you know, or something like stop and frisk is something that we've talked about as surveillance.
[21:16.060 --> 21:19.300]  Working with parolees and people who are ex-offenders.
[21:19.540 --> 21:21.220]  They're heavily, heavily surveilled.
[21:21.400 --> 21:28.980]  And so when we came to people who are working on building these pretty awesome tools, we're really, really excited to sort of make these connections.
[21:28.980 --> 21:31.100]  And we realized that there was a total mismatch.
[21:31.140 --> 21:32.860]  So we're like, great.
[21:33.000 --> 21:34.340]  And they're like, well, we can encrypt your email.
[21:34.520 --> 21:38.080]  And we're like, that doesn't really help with this issue that we have.
[21:38.080 --> 21:45.620]  So how do we, you know, there's amazing knowledge, all these amazing resources that sort of people who are working on tech-based solutions have.
[21:45.940 --> 21:51.480]  And there's this great need around these issues of surveillance sort of widely defined in our communities.
[21:51.920 --> 21:57.780]  So, you know, so I've sort of started being in more of these tech spaces.
[21:57.960 --> 22:01.420]  And I hear people talking a lot about sort of the end user not adopting tools.
[22:01.780 --> 22:06.320]  Or, you know, why isn't the end user adopting this thing that we're building, this really cool thing.
[22:06.320 --> 22:14.840]  And I think the question there is how do you bridge that gap in conversations so that people are, the needs are sort of meet, are met with the tools.
[22:15.880 --> 22:19.460]  And one of the ways that we've been able to do that is through this collaborative design process.
[22:20.360 --> 22:21.440]  It takes a long time.
[22:22.160 --> 22:26.740]  It's something that I think both sides are not necessarily familiar with or are all people involved.
[22:26.960 --> 22:28.800]  But it's been really successful.
[22:29.760 --> 22:42.060]  And I also wanted to point out, as I'm saying all of this, at the same time, the communities that I'm talking about are also impacted by online surveillance and these digital, you know, sort of digital technologies.
[22:43.500 --> 22:45.940]  And often with dire material consequences.
[22:47.300 --> 22:51.740]  One example of that might be sort of the connections between data profiling and the foreclosure crisis.
[22:52.060 --> 22:57.420]  And what that has done to sort of decimate communities of color in the United States in the last couple of years.
[22:57.420 --> 22:59.460]  So that's where I'm coming from.
[23:00.160 --> 23:10.500]  And my hope in being on this panel and being in this space is to really try to reach out and sort of build connections between the amazing work that some of the people here do and the needs that we have in our communities.
[23:11.140 --> 23:14.960]  And so we can talk a little bit about co-design and how we've been trying to do that a little bit.
[23:15.720 --> 23:16.120]  Definitely.
[23:16.340 --> 23:24.260]  And the exercise that we started with, having you kind of share the differential personal experiences that you have with surveillance and some of the things that make you feel safe.
[23:24.260 --> 23:28.240]  You know, part of that is to get people thinking about the way that...
[23:28.240 --> 23:34.620]  So one, there are multiple surveillance regimes that intersect and overlap.
[23:34.820 --> 23:36.280]  And sometimes they're actually very, very separate.
[23:36.460 --> 23:39.140]  So everything from, you know, personal surveillance.
[23:39.160 --> 23:41.280]  It was sort of a... it was said sort of in jest, right?
[23:41.400 --> 23:44.400]  So, you know, my girlfriend, you know, tracks the location of my phone.
[23:44.660 --> 23:53.400]  But actually, technology being used by abusers in situations of intimate partner violence is a really, really serious and rapidly growing problem.
[23:53.400 --> 23:57.160]  And actually, one of the projects we're going to talk about in a second does focus on that.
[23:57.680 --> 24:02.940]  Working with a domestic violence organization called Transition House in Cambridge.
[24:04.200 --> 24:10.420]  You know, communities of color face differential surveillance than white folks do.
[24:10.600 --> 24:27.340]  And so stop and frisk... yeah, stop and frisk, which, you know, has been formally overturned, but still is taking place, you know, informally, differentially, you know, targets, especially young people of color, especially young men of color, but also gender non-conforming folks of color.
[24:27.460 --> 24:46.560]  So here in New York, organizations like Street Wise and Safe are doing work to try and document and demonstrate and fight back against NYPD's practice of singling out queer-presenting youth of color, and on the assumption that they're doing sex work than targeting them for stop and frisk and for arrest.
[24:46.740 --> 25:00.720]  So we could sort of, you know, keep going on talking about all the different intersections of identities and surveillance systems from police in New York City schools, and actually another one of these projects talks about that, all the way to the interpersonal violence,
[25:00.860 --> 25:12.380]  you know, surveillance systems that abusers deploy on their partner, all the way out to larger systems that we're talking about more at a place like HOPE X, like, you know, like the NSA.
[25:16.080 --> 25:18.340]  So, how do you then deal with that?
[25:18.420 --> 25:29.740]  How do you put tech communities and hacking communities in dialogue with community-based organizations and organizers who are working with different communities on these different systems of surveillance?
[25:30.260 --> 25:35.360]  The approach that we've been taking is co-design or collaborative design.
[25:36.820 --> 25:40.740]  Actually, community-led design might be a better term for it.
[25:40.880 --> 25:47.240]  But there's, of course, a long history of people thinking about how do you build technology that actually responds to people's needs.
[25:48.020 --> 25:52.080]  There's appropriate technology design from the 60s and 70s.
[25:52.580 --> 26:04.360]  Participatory design is a popular framework that people use, although it's been used so widely that it's often reduced to, like, oh, well, we had a group of, you know, potential end users, and we did some A-B testing, and it was participatory.
[26:04.460 --> 26:11.080]  Or we did a brainstorm with people from the end community and extracted some ideas there, and then we made a web service, and now we sell it to them.
[26:11.680 --> 26:16.880]  So participatory design can also be used as an extractive process, and that's not what we really want to do.
[26:16.880 --> 26:31.340]  Human-centered design and user-centered design, of course, really focuses primarily on, you know, UX, and we wanted to go a little bit deeper in terms of thinking about how do the values of the project, the challenges that you're trying to solve or address,
[26:31.760 --> 26:46.560]  how do those all potentially come from the community that you're working with, and, in fact, how do you do a design process where you move beyond thinking about just an end user to thinking about someone as a part of your design team, so a co-designer.
[26:48.060 --> 26:56.380]  So now we're just going to share with you a few of the projects that came out of the latest iteration of the co-design studio.
[26:56.560 --> 26:58.740]  So this is actually a course that I teach at MIT.
[26:59.320 --> 27:04.240]  I've taught it a number of times, and this year we did it focusing on counter-surveillance.
[27:07.640 --> 27:15.440]  And I'm just going to quickly sort of walk you through a couple of the projects that came out of this process, and a couple of the partners as well.
[27:18.100 --> 27:25.820]  So, the first one I'm going to show you is a project called Bedtime Stories.
[27:27.340 --> 27:30.240]  This was done in partnership with Detention Watch Network.
[27:30.620 --> 27:42.080]  Detention Watch Network is a nonprofit organization that works on documenting and fighting the expansion of the detention and deportation system in the U.S.
[27:42.520 --> 27:47.880]  Does anyone know how many people the Obama administration has deported?
[27:51.310 --> 27:53.910]  Yeah, much closer to the first answer.
[27:54.190 --> 27:57.950]  So over two million people have been detained and deported by this administration.
[27:57.950 --> 28:01.070]  That is more than any previous administration.
[28:02.230 --> 28:08.450]  And one piece of the detention and deportation system is this crazy thing, which is called the detention bed quota.
[28:08.630 --> 28:10.930]  Raise your hand if you've heard of the detention bed quota.
[28:11.230 --> 28:15.490]  Okay, a few people in the back, right, who were in the co-design class, right.
[28:16.990 --> 28:18.630]  So there's a congressional mandate.
[28:18.870 --> 28:24.370]  It's part of the federal budget appropriations bill.
[28:24.530 --> 28:37.810]  It's been renewed over the past couple of years that says that 34,000 beds that were built, actually by most of them by private contractors, have to be filled every night or the money won't be released to DHS.
[28:38.130 --> 28:40.490]  So we built these beds and now we've got to fill them, right.
[28:40.550 --> 28:42.150]  That's not kind of an awesome thing to do.
[28:43.910 --> 28:46.790]  And so this project came through...
[28:46.790 --> 28:57.990]  I won't walk you through the whole design process because we've got a lot of projects to look at, but this was a project to call attention to the fact that there is a detention bed quota in a way that would be sort of compelling.
[28:59.290 --> 29:03.530]  So these students came up with this microsite called Bedtime Stories.
[29:04.890 --> 29:12.290]  And they did these overhead shots of people sort of tossing and turning in beds, which is sort of visually arresting.
[29:12.370 --> 29:16.290]  And then when you do rollovers, you get quotes about the system.
[29:18.150 --> 29:21.370]  Quotes from people who have been through this system.
[29:21.550 --> 29:27.550]  We've been given expired juices, apples with worms in them, jello that tastes like soap, et cetera, et cetera.
[29:27.550 --> 29:32.990]  So basically trying to sort of put more of a human face on people who are suffering through the system.
[29:33.130 --> 29:36.590]  And then at the bottom, we've got these stats.
[29:36.770 --> 29:39.530]  The top one is nights stolen by detention since the quota began.
[29:39.550 --> 29:44.690]  And the bottom is the amount of money spent on this detention system since the user arrived on the microsite.
[29:44.690 --> 29:47.410]  And then, you know, we asked people to, you know, tweet it out.
[29:47.430 --> 29:50.140]  Are these people that are in my country?
[29:50.800 --> 29:53.860]  We're going to move on to the next project.
[29:54.780 --> 29:58.220]  The next project we did was with the ACLU of Massachusetts.
[29:58.910 --> 30:00.950]  Cade Crockford was the person that we partnered with.
[30:01.300 --> 30:04.320]  And we developed a project called SPIDEY App.
[30:05.700 --> 30:12.760]  So this came out of a case that the ACLU is currently doing in Florida around IMSI catchers.
[30:13.400 --> 30:15.240]  You all know about the ACLU.
[30:15.460 --> 30:17.600]  You may know about the Guardian Project.
[30:18.480 --> 30:24.410]  And together with some of the students in the co-design class, they came up with this.
[30:25.140 --> 30:29.560]  So go to spideyapp.com and you can sign up to actually receive the release.
[30:29.660 --> 30:37.120]  This is a free open-source project that Guardian Project is going to put out, which is to tell you whether your phone is connecting to an IMSI catcher.
[30:38.040 --> 30:43.200]  The way that we decided to approach doing that was to basically do a diff.
[30:43.480 --> 30:45.930]  So you bring your phone to a place where you're going to say do...
[30:45.930 --> 30:46.120]  Oh, sorry.
[30:46.930 --> 30:48.740]  Raise your hand if you know what an IMSI catcher is.
[30:49.340 --> 30:49.680]  Okay.
[30:49.890 --> 30:54.120]  So an IMSI catcher is more popularly known as a Stingray.
[30:54.360 --> 30:57.980]  It's a device that is actually now available on the open market.
[30:58.060 --> 30:59.000]  You could buy one if you want.
[30:59.120 --> 31:03.100]  But law enforcement is using it to pretend to be a cell tower.
[31:03.100 --> 31:08.340]  And you bring it to a physical location and all the cell phones in the area connect to it.
[31:08.680 --> 31:12.160]  And then you have a good record of every cell phone that was in the area.
[31:12.660 --> 31:19.300]  And depending on the device that you've purchased, you could also route all the traffic through it so that you can have full access to that traffic.
[31:19.430 --> 31:21.060]  And again, this is local law enforcement.
[31:21.260 --> 31:23.100]  So this is not that...
[31:23.500 --> 31:32.080]  Yes, we know that there are other ways to access cell phone traffic, but this is something that local law enforcement or you could buy or build an IMSI catcher.
[31:33.370 --> 31:45.760]  So basically the way this works is you go to a location, say that you're going to do a protest, and you load up SPIDEY app, and then you find all of the cell towers in the area, and then it stores it in a local database on the phone, and then you come back on the day of your protest,
[31:45.950 --> 31:47.680]  and you open it up again, and you run it.
[31:47.800 --> 31:54.620]  And if there's a new tower there, then you get an alert that says, hey, there's a tower that may or may not be a tower.
[31:54.620 --> 31:56.390]  It wasn't here when you checked last.
[31:56.800 --> 32:00.280]  And then you can actually report it to a shared database.
[32:00.820 --> 32:01.300]  Yeah?
[32:01.820 --> 32:05.760]  Do you have any way of distinguishing new network towers from catchers?
[32:06.140 --> 32:07.300]  We don't right now.
[32:07.620 --> 32:14.540]  There isn't a really good, freely available and accessible, you know, public database of all of the towers.
[32:14.740 --> 32:17.000]  So we do check the towers against...
[32:17.000 --> 32:23.390]  There are some other services that have tried to build sort of a crowd-sourced database of that.
[32:23.390 --> 32:24.660]  And so we check against that.
[32:24.840 --> 32:27.080]  So the short answer is, no, we don't know what it is.
[32:27.160 --> 32:29.390]  We just know it's a tower that wasn't there last time you looked.
[32:29.760 --> 32:32.410]  And so then it's up to you to investigate further.
[32:32.580 --> 32:44.390]  The real point, of course, of this app is to draw attention to the fact that IMSI captures exist, and law enforcement in Florida, actually, we know from a case ACLU is doing, deployed them over 800 times without warrants in the last two years.
[32:46.200 --> 32:50.640]  So you can download that at bit.do slash spidey.
[32:52.040 --> 32:54.280]  And I'll tell you later where you can access all of these.
[32:55.340 --> 32:56.140]  Is it Android only?
[32:56.950 --> 32:58.500]  It's currently Android only.
[32:59.240 --> 33:01.280]  How much time is... oh, I should go quick.
[33:01.360 --> 33:01.860]  I'll go quicker.
[33:02.040 --> 33:06.460]  So I'm not going to be able to talk about all these projects and have a chance to talk at all.
[33:06.540 --> 33:07.580]  We have, like, 15 minutes left.
[33:07.580 --> 33:12.660]  So I'll just show you a little bit about some of the other projects, and then we'll talk.
[33:13.120 --> 33:15.910]  So another one of our partners was Electronic Frontier Foundation.
[33:17.120 --> 33:21.620]  This project was basically redesigning the surveillance self-defense toolkit.
[33:22.280 --> 33:25.740]  And I guess, Mark, should I not say anything else about this right now?
[33:28.260 --> 33:29.410]  So it hasn't launched.
[33:29.540 --> 33:30.500]  It's going to launch soon.
[33:31.240 --> 33:45.390]  We basically worked with EFF to help redesign the SSD to be more interesting, exciting, up-to-date, and there are animated GIFs involved, and they're really fun.
[33:46.410 --> 33:48.800]  And you will have to look for that from EFF.
[33:50.410 --> 33:54.390]  This project... this always generates a lot of conversation.
[33:54.620 --> 34:01.280]  This project is called I Am Not a Dot, and it's about humanizing people who are on the sex offender registry registry in the United States.
[34:02.080 --> 34:09.120]  So our community partner was CURE, a prisoner's rights advocacy organization that's been around for many, many years.
[34:12.100 --> 34:14.320]  And what is the problem with the sex offender registry?
[34:14.520 --> 34:17.430]  Well, there's a lot of problems with it, which we won't have time to fully discuss right now.
[34:17.560 --> 34:26.410]  But one of the problems is that you can be on it for anything from, in some states, public urination to consensual sex between minors to serial rape of strangers.
[34:26.410 --> 34:36.320]  And all of those things will put you in a public database, which people will then browse and access and use to keep you from getting access to housing and employment and so on.
[34:36.450 --> 34:40.640]  So there's a lot of problems with this database and the way that it's deployed.
[34:40.890 --> 34:51.820]  And so the goal of this project was to let people know about the work that CURE is doing around challenging the way the database is currently set up and what can be done with it.
[34:53.200 --> 35:04.100]  Another problem with the database is that even for the most severe offenders, there's actually the only empirical studies that have been done of the impact of the sex offender database are that it actually increases recidivism rates.
[35:04.410 --> 35:04.820]  Why?
[35:04.980 --> 35:19.100]  Because if you can't get access to employment or housing or, you know, you're basically excluded from society, then that makes it much more difficult for you to form social bonds and reintegrate yourself with society, you're more likely to reoffend.
[35:20.930 --> 35:26.720]  But that doesn't matter because what politician is going to say, I think we should eliminate the sex offender registry.
[35:26.890 --> 35:27.060]  None.
[35:27.600 --> 35:27.700]  Right?
[35:28.280 --> 35:34.600]  So these are some of our possible users, various design mock-ups and whatnot.
[35:34.740 --> 35:44.460]  And what we ended up with is basically this site called I am not a dot where you roll over these little dots, which is what a lot of the sex offender maps look like.
[35:44.680 --> 35:56.160]  And each one has a story from somebody who's actually on the registry talking about how they got there and how it's f*cked up their life and why the sex offender registry should be eliminated.
[35:57.500 --> 36:23.860]  For example, one of the people whose stories is told in this project is a guy who was 17 and his boyfriend was 15 and they had consensual sex and the mother of the 15-year-old was a raging homophobe and so called the police and the guy ended up in prison for a rape of a minor and is now on the sex offender registry for life.
[36:24.100 --> 36:27.860]  He's now a Soros Justice Fellow and...
[36:29.340 --> 36:30.120]  Sorry, okay.
[36:30.280 --> 36:33.890]  So moving on to a couple other projects.
[36:34.340 --> 36:35.910]  I do want to have time to talk a little bit.
[36:36.060 --> 36:44.160]  So we mentioned intimate partner violence and the way that technology is used as a surveillance tool by partners, sorry, by abusers against their partner.
[36:44.320 --> 36:53.000]  So we partnered with Transition House, which is a domestic violence resource in the Cambridge area.
[36:54.180 --> 36:58.120]  And they came up with a lot of different possible project ideas through the co-design process.
[36:58.680 --> 37:06.320]  Like a website, which was sort of a wizard to let people learn about whether their phone had stalking software installed on it or not.
[37:08.200 --> 37:13.660]  Training for people who work with survivors of intimate partner violence.
[37:15.640 --> 37:25.220]  One of the problems, though, that they found soon was that there wasn't very much good data about how frequently people use, you know, install apps on their partner's phone to track and monitor them.
[37:25.580 --> 37:29.700]  So the question was, are police even, are law enforcement paying attention to this?
[37:29.770 --> 37:31.810]  Do we know how frequent this is?
[37:31.960 --> 37:33.310]  Does it, you know, is it a big problem?
[37:33.450 --> 37:34.890]  Is it something that's only happened a couple times?
[37:36.140 --> 37:38.980]  And so there was no data.
[37:39.520 --> 37:55.520]  So basically what they did is they scraped the Cambridge Police Department database and did a bunch of keyword stuff and pulled out everything that was related to intimate partner violence and created a tool to make that data much more browsable by folks who are working on domestic violence and intimate partner violence.
[37:56.950 --> 38:02.080]  And they also created a bunch of, you know, infographics about how that works.
[38:03.160 --> 38:04.390]  I'll skip this one.
[38:04.770 --> 38:06.790]  Well, I'll just mention it and you can find it on the website.
[38:07.220 --> 38:22.540]  We ended up working with Urban Youth Collaborative here in New York, which is working in New York City school systems where 40,000 New York Police Department officers actually run security inside the New York City schools.
[38:23.060 --> 38:37.600]  Metal detectors, they want to put cameras in the classrooms and they're spending money on putting police inside the schools instead of spending money on services and support, you know, for kids so that they wouldn't have to be fed right into the school-to-prison pipeline.
[38:37.890 --> 39:01.120]  And so Urban Youth Collaborative, we worked with them and we ended up through a whole bunch of different possible designs coming up with an SMS system to basically message students that are part of the schools that Urban Youth Collaborative organizes in to basically poll their community around how frequently they were experiencing police abuse inside New York City schools.
[39:02.330 --> 39:05.330]  That's what they wanted to do around surveillance of their community.
[39:05.620 --> 39:11.770]  And the last project is called Infiltrated and it's a partnership with SoMove.org, the Social Movement Oral History Tour.
[39:11.770 --> 39:29.390]  And this is an interactive documentary based on video and audio interviews with organizers who are from social movement groups that have been infiltrated by federal agents and the impacts that had on the work that they were doing.
[39:29.790 --> 39:31.830]  So those are some of the projects that we came up with.
[39:32.220 --> 39:36.430]  As you can see, they deal with a very wide range of different kinds of surveillance systems.
[39:36.430 --> 39:41.390]  And they're everything from, you know, an app to an interactive documentary to an SMS survey.
[39:41.830 --> 39:47.680]  And so the point of all this, right, is that...
[39:49.500 --> 39:50.200]  Well, I don't know.
[39:50.270 --> 39:51.370]  We don't really need to do these slides.
[39:51.600 --> 39:53.100]  These are sort of just silly jokes.
[39:55.290 --> 39:58.440]  In a nutshell, the point is that co-design...
[39:59.040 --> 40:01.580]  And you get a cute animal because you stayed here until almost midnight.
[40:02.040 --> 40:13.520]  So co-design driven by real-world communities can create innovative counter-surveillance technology and social practice where it's most needed rather than where we think would be most fun to hack on.
[40:14.980 --> 40:17.940]  Can you talk a little bit about the process?
[40:18.320 --> 40:18.440]  Go ahead.
[40:18.540 --> 40:19.560]  Can you talk a little bit about the process?
[40:19.820 --> 40:20.720]  Like how do you...
[40:20.720 --> 40:22.540]  I feel like how do you...
[40:22.540 --> 40:23.860]  We only have five minutes.
[40:24.120 --> 40:24.140]  Okay.
[40:24.940 --> 40:34.280]  If you want to learn more about the process, like how the actual co-design, you know, process is structured, you can go to co-design.mit.edu, and you can learn a lot more.
[40:34.540 --> 40:39.780]  There's a syllabus there, and there's the sort of step-by-step on, you know, how we do this.
[40:40.240 --> 40:45.720]  And we have just a couple minutes if people want to hang out and talk or have questions.
[40:45.940 --> 40:46.400]  Do you have any questions?
[40:46.680 --> 40:46.820]  Yeah.
[40:49.140 --> 40:50.680]  No one's got a single question.
[40:52.380 --> 40:53.420]  Too much information.
[40:59.200 --> 41:01.880]  How do you find those communities?
[41:02.300 --> 41:04.020]  And that is...
[41:04.020 --> 41:06.960]  I don't know how much of a question that is, but...
[41:08.300 --> 41:09.160]  You go.
[41:09.660 --> 41:10.040]  Okay.
[41:11.320 --> 41:11.560]  How do...
[41:11.560 --> 41:14.000]  So how do you find a community to work with?
[41:14.680 --> 41:17.620]  I mean, I think you each have to answer that for yourself.
[41:17.620 --> 41:22.540]  You know, what are you interested in and driven by and motivated by?
[41:23.840 --> 41:28.240]  You know, I think it's always good to focus local is a good thing to do.
[41:28.400 --> 41:34.560]  So wherever you're from, what local surveillance regimes are in play?
[41:35.620 --> 41:37.400]  And who's working on it already?
[41:37.760 --> 41:40.860]  So at Allied Media Projects, we basically...
[41:40.860 --> 41:43.060]  Our slogan is, we begin by listening.
[41:43.060 --> 41:51.600]  And so the idea is that wherever there's a problem that's targeting a particular community, there are people in that community who are already working on it.
[41:51.700 --> 41:56.040]  And so the idea is, you would start by saying, you know, what does local...
[41:56.040 --> 41:57.520]  What does surveillance look like in my community?
[41:57.700 --> 41:58.760]  And who's working on it already?
[41:58.920 --> 42:03.000]  And then how can I bring my skill set to bear to support their process?
[42:13.660 --> 42:15.020]  Can you repeat that?
[42:15.020 --> 42:20.460]  Have you ever thought about using infrared emitters to defeat certain video camera systems?
[42:21.940 --> 42:23.560]  Have you ever thought about that, Emmy?
[42:23.920 --> 42:25.240]  I've never thought about that.
[42:26.500 --> 42:27.680]  I'd like to think about that.
[42:27.880 --> 42:29.120]  Yeah, that sounds like a good thing to do.
[42:32.120 --> 42:32.920]  I mean, this...
[42:32.920 --> 42:33.900]  Yeah, this is the kind of thing.
[42:34.040 --> 42:36.320]  I mean, you know, this is...
[42:36.320 --> 42:41.920]  Surveillance cameras are actually one of the things that we also, where I live, work on surveillance camera mapping tours.
[42:43.780 --> 42:44.200]  Sorry?
[42:44.960 --> 42:45.820]  No, I'm sorry.
[42:45.960 --> 42:46.820]  I was just thinking...
[42:46.820 --> 42:46.900]  Okay.
[42:47.480 --> 42:49.420]  So this is exactly the kind of thing.
[42:49.540 --> 42:50.540]  There's an actual need.
[42:51.040 --> 42:52.420]  And that might be a solution.
[42:52.420 --> 42:53.820]  I don't know anything about it, but...
[42:53.820 --> 42:58.040]  Can you say a little bit more about the surveillance tours and mapping?
[42:58.220 --> 42:59.280]  Surveillance camera mapping tours?
[43:00.140 --> 43:00.560]  Sure.
[43:01.520 --> 43:01.800]  It's...
[43:02.680 --> 43:04.820]  Where I live in Oakland, California, there's...
[43:04.820 --> 43:06.780]  They're developing this domain awareness center.
[43:07.000 --> 43:08.800]  So it's connected to a fusion center.
[43:08.920 --> 43:13.560]  It's basically a big sort of information sharing...
[43:14.300 --> 43:14.860]  Cross...
[43:14.860 --> 43:15.340]  Cross agency.
[43:15.720 --> 43:16.000]  Cross agency.
[43:16.220 --> 43:16.640]  What's that?
[43:19.220 --> 43:19.780]  Right.
[43:19.780 --> 43:19.880]  Right.
[43:21.180 --> 43:25.000]  But the infrastructure is still there, actually.
[43:25.320 --> 43:29.780]  And the port is also part of the city and the workers at the port are also, you know...
[43:29.780 --> 43:30.240]  Yeah.
[43:30.720 --> 43:31.200]  Yeah.
[43:31.420 --> 43:31.720]  Anyway.
[43:32.080 --> 43:40.760]  The point is, out of the process of organizing around the domain awareness center, came sort of a working group of people who were doing...
[43:40.760 --> 43:46.060]  Who identified surveillance cameras as sort of one of the issues that we could organize around locally.
[43:46.060 --> 43:52.860]  So there are surveillance camera mapping tours that are being done to sort of raise awareness about the pervasiveness of surveillance.
[43:53.300 --> 43:54.940]  And of these cameras in Oakland.
[43:54.940 --> 44:00.420]  In particular, the fact that sort of a lot of this federal money went to, you know...
[44:01.040 --> 44:06.300]  Funding 700 surveillance cameras being installed in public schools in Oakland.
[44:06.900 --> 44:17.200]  You know, so I actually work with middle school students around sort of some of these questions of surveillance and helping them sort of think through what it means to be...
[44:17.200 --> 44:19.040]  Not that they need help thinking through it, but...
[44:19.520 --> 44:19.740]  Yeah.
[44:20.020 --> 44:25.340]  And so, actually, this goes back to the first question around, like, how do you find communities and what do you do?
[44:25.500 --> 44:34.740]  I think actually starting by mapping out the local surveillance system in your city or town or community is a really interesting, you know, place to begin if you're looking for something.
[44:34.740 --> 44:43.680]  So, you know, fusion centers, domain awareness centers, the intersection between, you know, private systems that are being installed with the various, you know, various agencies.
[44:44.960 --> 44:59.040]  You know, even learning about what that looks like in your particular community is an interesting process that can bring together a lot of different kinds of community groups and stakeholders to develop more of kind of a shared, you know, bottom-up approach to counteracting,
[44:59.280 --> 45:05.660]  you know, the surveillance regimes than just starting from we've all got to talk about NSA all the time.
[45:05.840 --> 45:09.480]  Not that we shouldn't be targeting that too, but...
[45:12.480 --> 45:22.120]  Are you more interested in, when you take on a project, raising awareness in the community and then providing tools back to that community?
[45:22.340 --> 45:31.160]  Or are you really there to steer the project all the way to the end of the solution to solve the ultimate goal?
[45:31.300 --> 45:39.300]  Like, are you about providing the pieces for the community or work-solving problems, not that they're separate?
[45:39.660 --> 45:42.660]  Like, where do you find yourself in that?
[45:45.840 --> 45:46.360]  Yeah.
[45:47.080 --> 45:47.380]  Go ahead.
[45:47.980 --> 45:48.880]  Yeah, that's a great question.
[45:49.580 --> 45:52.260]  I mean, I think it really just depends project to project.
[45:52.520 --> 45:58.780]  I mean, one of the things is that no one design project is going to solve surveillance, right?
[45:58.780 --> 46:08.780]  So, I think that part of what's happening here is the design process itself, and certainly in co-design, that's a community organizing tool.
[46:09.080 --> 46:22.260]  So, we're saying... it's actually similar to, you know, Snowden earlier today in the keynote was kind of saying, we don't want to place ourselves as these high priests of technology.
[46:22.620 --> 46:33.420]  You know, we don't want to just replace, you know, another set of high technology priests who we think are deploying these systems for bad ends and, you know, we can deploy them for good ends.
[46:33.480 --> 46:46.480]  We actually want to more radically think about what it means to design and develop and run and maintain technology, you know, that communities actually need coming out of, you know, what it is that they want to do.
[46:46.640 --> 46:52.420]  And ultimately, ideally, you know, they then own or run that project or product or whatever it is.
[46:52.420 --> 47:01.220]  You know, one good example of this would be the panel the other day on the DIY cell phone networks in indigenous communities in Oaxaca, Mexico.
[47:01.480 --> 47:03.820]  So, if you missed that, definitely check out the recording of that.
[47:04.160 --> 47:08.420]  This is, you know, five communities running their own cell phone networks.
[47:08.620 --> 47:16.060]  That's one way to avoid the problem of surveillance by both the Mexican state and the narcos in that context.
[47:16.580 --> 47:19.040]  And so, this is community-controlled infrastructure for them.
[47:19.820 --> 47:21.260]  I don't know if that really answers your question.
[47:21.460 --> 47:34.020]  But, yes, it's also... it's about the process of design being something that's important for communities to be involved in rather than just, you know, smart techies in a room somewhere coming up with the solution to these things.
[47:34.200 --> 47:35.800]  Technology is a social process as well.
[47:40.840 --> 47:41.820]  Somebody raising their hand?
[47:41.820 --> 47:42.160]  Yeah.
[47:42.420 --> 47:47.860]  You talk about surveillance, you know, in terms of protecting our privacy.
[47:48.480 --> 47:55.500]  However, sometimes surveillance is big for safety purposes and security.
[47:55.900 --> 48:04.360]  So, when you guys go through your projects, is that part of the discussion in terms of providing some balance?
[48:05.700 --> 48:06.020]  Yeah.
[48:06.380 --> 48:09.780]  You want to talk about safety and community... community safety?
[48:10.280 --> 48:10.640]  Yeah.
[48:10.880 --> 48:13.420]  I mean, again, I don't know if I'm going to be able to talk.
[48:13.620 --> 48:14.100]  I'm pretty tired.
[48:14.280 --> 48:18.640]  But, yeah, I mean, I think it's part of a process of conversation.
[48:18.640 --> 48:21.080]  I mean, I can speak to the surveillance camera question.
[48:23.180 --> 48:34.000]  With small business owners in East Oakland, for example, who own, like, bodegas or, like, corner stores, they say that actually having surveillance cameras for them helps them feel safer, right?
[48:34.000 --> 48:56.400]  When we've worked with the restaurant opportunity center, they organize with service workers who work in the restaurant industry, or taxi cab drivers who would like to have surveillance cameras in their workplace in order to feel safer, or to monitor their employers who are often,
[48:56.400 --> 48:59.240]  you know, abusive towards them, or the working conditions are really bad.
[48:59.240 --> 49:01.000]  So, yeah, I think it's really complicated.
[49:01.400 --> 49:10.060]  These are conversations that come up in every single situation, even when it comes to, sort of, domestic violence and sexual assault.
[49:10.260 --> 49:13.180]  Some people actually feel better if, you know...
[49:13.960 --> 49:24.460]  And then it gets to the, sort of, larger question, sort of, philosophical question about whether or not, you know, these surveillance technologies or state intervention...
[49:24.460 --> 49:26.280]  You know, police, some people feel safer with the police.
[49:26.380 --> 49:28.900]  It depends on where you're socially located at the end of the day.
[49:29.000 --> 49:31.280]  I think that's kind of where these conversations break.
[49:32.520 --> 49:45.200]  A lot of people, communities that have been historically sort of targeted by the police, or for whom surveillance has only ever served as, like, a form of social control, tend to not want it.
[49:45.460 --> 49:46.400]  But, right?
[49:46.580 --> 49:48.320]  So, it's a complicated conversation.
[49:48.520 --> 49:49.500]  I'm glad you asked that question.
[49:49.660 --> 49:50.800]  Thanks for hanging out with us.
[49:50.880 --> 49:52.760]  And talk to us after there's another session.
[50:06.530 --> 50:08.070]  Thank you so much.
[50:10.410 --> 50:15.010]  How's it going?
[50:15.010 --> 50:15.110]  How's it going?
[50:16.010 --> 50:16.470]  Very well.
[50:16.710 --> 50:17.050]  Great.
[50:17.650 --> 50:18.650]  Everything is...
[50:18.650 --> 50:18.830]  What?
[50:22.690 --> 50:24.070]  So, actually, I had a question.
[50:24.350 --> 50:26.030]  Are we going to be capped off at an hour?
[50:26.230 --> 50:28.150]  Or if we run over a little bit with Q&A, does it matter?
[50:28.690 --> 50:29.090]  Sweet!
[50:29.170 --> 50:29.690]  We'll be here all night.
[50:29.910 --> 50:30.270]  Okay.
[50:30.490 --> 50:31.030]  We'll steal.
[50:32.130 --> 50:32.530]  We'll steal.
[50:33.150 --> 50:35.330]  I could rant about this shit for hours.
[50:36.450 --> 50:37.170]  We'll steal.
[50:37.410 --> 50:38.770]  I did have dinner with them.
[50:39.110 --> 50:39.490]  Yeah?
[50:45.510 --> 50:47.390]  Well, actually, I should close some stuff.
[50:48.190 --> 50:48.590]  Yeah.
[50:48.590 --> 50:52.670]  Now, like I have said, as long as I keep doing dumb things on the Internet, I'll have material for a talk.
[50:54.510 --> 50:55.270]  That's a good thing.
[50:55.290 --> 50:57.430]  And there's no short supply of stupid things on the Internet.
[50:59.850 --> 51:00.250]  What?
[51:01.370 --> 51:02.690]  No, it's not.
[51:03.270 --> 51:03.670]  What?
[51:03.870 --> 51:04.930]  No, it's not.
[51:07.170 --> 51:11.810]  You might come out of the talk with PTSD from some of the government stuff that we're covering.
[51:11.830 --> 51:13.910]  No, no, it's not that bad.
[51:13.910 --> 51:13.930]  No!
[51:14.050 --> 51:14.070]  No!
[51:14.210 --> 51:14.230]  No!