[00:00.000 --> 00:15.920] I'm going to try to keep my talk to 15 or 20 minutes, and I have my friend, Zi Mei, who's a web developer and a tech consultant, and he'll be trying to keep his remarks to 5 or 10 minutes, and then we'll have questions. [00:18.540 --> 00:26.500] I have to realize my limitations for me to talk... Excuse me, could you put the house lights back up and dim those lights, please? [00:27.700 --> 00:28.360] Thank you. [00:30.740 --> 00:38.460] Trying to talk about technology here would be kind of like an RIAA lawyer trying to talk about law. [00:39.380 --> 00:44.380] And I would just make a fool of myself, so I'm not going to really try to do that. [00:44.580 --> 00:48.900] I'll try to confine myself to the general subject and to what I know about. [00:50.840 --> 00:55.100] One thing I know about is who I am and how I got into this mess. [00:55.920 --> 01:00.620] I'll tell you a little bit about that, because we don't usually get to talk about that, which is... [01:00.620 --> 01:18.540] I'm a commercial litigation lawyer who worked in entertainment and communications, and the Electronic Frontier Foundation, who are good people, had brought to my attention about these cases, and I had... I tried to help a couple of these folks. [01:18.540 --> 01:22.740] I thought, well, I'm a litigator, I'm a copyright lawyer, and I hate bullies. [01:23.100 --> 01:25.200] And I know this is a lot of extortion. [01:25.200 --> 01:26.360] It's not really law. [01:26.520 --> 01:28.780] And let me see if I can help some of these people. [01:30.160 --> 01:35.340] The first few people didn't have any guts to fight it or to wherewithal. [01:35.740 --> 01:38.780] And then I had a client that wanted to fight back. [01:39.380 --> 01:44.460] And when I did that, I realized the RIAA had this strategic advantage. [01:44.760 --> 01:50.020] They knew anything about what's going on across the country, because they had one law firm handling everything. [01:51.100 --> 01:52.600] And I knew nothing. [01:52.820 --> 01:58.060] I didn't know what was going on in other cases or if there were any other cases. [01:58.060 --> 02:09.560] So I figured, why don't I throw up a blog or a place where we could collect litigation information, and maybe it'll help to neutralize one of those strategic advantages. [02:10.300 --> 02:24.280] And by setting up the blog, recording industry versus the people, that wound up sort of putting me into the front line of this war. [02:24.540 --> 02:26.160] So that's how I got into this case. [02:26.160 --> 02:35.160] I'm not...I didn't come to it with a love or appreciation of the need for file sharing or with some vision about the future of the Internet. [02:35.160 --> 02:40.200] I'm just an ordinary litigation lawyer who hates bullies. [02:41.240 --> 02:52.500] Now, I want to mention briefly the great economic imbalance in every single case that's brought, because it permeates everything, which is... [02:52.500 --> 02:56.320] there's no case in which it's not a tremendous economic imbalance. [02:56.720 --> 03:06.160] Usually, the people that are being sued are middle class or poor people who don't have the resources to fight a federal court litigation. [03:06.960 --> 03:09.920] In some cases, there are people who have money. [03:10.200 --> 03:25.320] But even if you're a very wealthy person, you didn't get that way by taking a claim that you could settle for $4,000 or $5,000, and spending $200,000 in legal fees that you might or might not be able to get part of that back. [03:26.120 --> 03:31.140] So for most...now, it's not enough that this is a gigantic corporation. [03:31.520 --> 03:41.540] These are gigantic corporations, any one of which would be a tremendous mismatch against the middle class and poor people that are being sued. [03:41.540 --> 03:43.460] But they have to join forces. [03:43.760 --> 03:47.120] These four multinational corporations have to join forces. [03:47.480 --> 03:52.560] And in my opinion, collusively litigate their claims together, settle them together. [03:52.580 --> 03:56.120] You can't make a settlement with one of them without making a settlement with all of them. [03:56.340 --> 04:01.700] And they have some guy who's the enforcer, who goes to the settlement conferences and stuff. [04:01.700 --> 04:05.100] And I guess he's there to make sure every company toes the line. [04:07.100 --> 04:10.060] Now, I want to briefly talk about the technology. [04:10.460 --> 04:16.260] And I put technology in quotes, because it could be the lack of technology that we're talking about. [04:16.480 --> 04:22.760] The way these cases start, people assume, less knowledgeable people assume that it's got to do with downloading. [04:23.060 --> 04:25.260] Every judge assumes these are downloading cases. [04:25.660 --> 04:29.400] But as many of you know, this has nothing to do with downloading. [04:29.500 --> 04:30.920] They don't know anything about downloading. [04:30.920 --> 04:48.680] All they have is they have this investigator, Media Sentry, who goes on a network that either uses the Gnutella protocol or the Fast Track protocol. [04:50.520 --> 04:55.920] And he pretends to be a member of a network like Kazaa. [04:55.920 --> 05:07.100] And then he sees a shared files folder, which he works on the assumption that these are all folders that are... these are all files. [05:07.320 --> 05:08.560] They're all song files. [05:08.900 --> 05:11.720] And that they're... but all he knows is their names. [05:12.560 --> 05:18.940] And that they're... and that they... and many of them could be the same corrupt files that Media Sentry itself sent out. [05:18.940 --> 05:21.960] But in any event, they... they look at that. [05:22.160 --> 05:28.360] They... they... they... they make a note of whatever dynamic IP address comes through in the data packet. [05:29.480 --> 05:30.480] And that's it. [05:30.600 --> 05:31.740] That's the investigation. [05:32.000 --> 05:36.620] They... and they download a... a sample of usually six to nine songs. [05:38.040 --> 05:42.780] Allegedly play them, but they... they... they... it turns out that they really don't play them. [05:42.780 --> 05:45.520] to verify that they're song files, supposedly. [05:45.900 --> 05:48.280] And then they turn this over to the RIAA. [05:48.540 --> 05:52.960] The RIAA then goes and serves a subpoena on the ISP. [05:53.820 --> 06:03.160] Says who... who... who had... the... who paid for the... the... I... the Internet access account that accessed that IP address at that date and time. [06:03.560 --> 06:08.800] And you might think that will be like the place to begin an investigation when they get that information. [06:08.800 --> 06:11.260] But that's where they end their investigation. [06:11.540 --> 06:18.500] And then they sue whoever the hapless person is who's... who's IP... who paid for that IP access account. [06:18.700 --> 06:20.040] The Internet access account. [06:20.240 --> 06:31.420] So if you... if... if someone was coasting off someone else's wireless signal, the person whose wireless signal was coasted on is the defendant in the lawsuit. [06:32.920 --> 06:34.940] And that's... that's it. [06:35.280 --> 06:37.140] That's their so-called technology. [06:37.140 --> 06:41.380] And I... I... I have a... my blog post with materials. [06:41.660 --> 06:44.600] I didn't want to bore you with a PowerPoint presentation or anything. [06:44.760 --> 06:48.760] And I'm not that... organized that I would... know how to do that anyhow. [06:49.120 --> 06:51.100] But the materials are... are up there. [06:51.320 --> 06:56.140] And... like I have a... a string of... documents where... [06:57.260 --> 07:00.420] Sometimes they say Media Century was an investigator. [07:01.320 --> 07:04.080] Sometimes they say it... it wasn't an investigator. [07:05.140 --> 07:07.380] Sometimes they say it's an expert. [07:07.880 --> 07:09.700] Sometimes they say it's not an expert. [07:09.960 --> 07:11.280] They will say anything. [07:11.800 --> 07:18.640] In order to... try to avoid whatever the consequences are to whatever position they've taken. [07:18.800 --> 07:21.300] These people have no respect for the truth. [07:21.800 --> 07:24.220] So I don't know what Media Century is. [07:24.800 --> 07:28.400] And they don't... and they won't say... we don't... we don't know what it is. [07:28.400 --> 07:31.800] I don't know if it's technological or if it's not technological. [07:34.040 --> 07:34.720] Um... [07:34.720 --> 07:39.220] Now, this technology winds up... affecting the substance of law. [07:40.560 --> 07:45.540] Because... because they have no evidence of any actual person... [07:45.540 --> 07:48.500] actually infringing anybody's copyright. [07:49.000 --> 07:50.840] They try to stretch the law. [07:51.620 --> 07:55.740] The... the two big areas in which this is affecting the copyright law... [07:55.740 --> 07:58.940] is the make... making available... [07:58.940 --> 08:01.380] and the secondary liability. [08:02.140 --> 08:05.440] Making available is this theory that they came up with... [08:05.440 --> 08:08.860] which has no place in the Copyright Act... [08:08.860 --> 08:11.120] which says that... if you... [08:11.120 --> 08:14.140] have something available... [08:14.140 --> 08:16.740] that... that... make something available to somebody... [08:17.280 --> 08:19.070] that could lead to a copyright infringement... [08:19.500 --> 08:21.720] that that's a violation of the distribution right. [08:23.060 --> 08:24.880] They have no basis for this. [08:25.200 --> 08:27.900] They've been making the argument for... for years. [08:28.220 --> 08:30.820] I... I challenged it in 2005. [08:31.260 --> 08:33.720] And finally, we have a string of decisions... [08:34.740 --> 08:36.900] uh... starting early this year... [08:36.900 --> 08:39.080] which have rejected the RIAA's theory. [08:39.360 --> 08:41.040] None of them at an appellate level. [08:41.380 --> 08:42.820] And the most famous case... [08:43.280 --> 08:47.660] which was the one that resulted in that crazy $222,000 verdict... [08:47.660 --> 08:50.560] in... in Minnesota... against the Native American woman... [08:50.560 --> 08:52.100] for... 24 songs. [08:52.900 --> 08:54.880] Uh... the judge now realizes... [08:54.880 --> 08:57.440] that he was misled by the RIAA lawyers... [08:57.440 --> 09:01.880] and he... and he was let down by the defendant's lawyer... [09:01.880 --> 09:04.840] who didn't... uh... brief the law properly. [09:05.200 --> 09:06.500] And he's now saying... [09:06.500 --> 09:08.900] that he's probably gonna be setting aside the verdict... [09:08.900 --> 09:10.040] and... and having a new trial. [09:10.720 --> 09:13.540] So... uh... this is starting to be eroded... [09:13.540 --> 09:16.480] but it's still not at a... um... appellate level. [09:17.140 --> 09:19.700] Secondary liability in copyright law... [09:19.700 --> 09:20.480] is pretty clear... [09:20.480 --> 09:22.620] because we have a recent Supreme Court pronouncement... [09:23.060 --> 09:24.340] MGM versus Grokster. [09:24.760 --> 09:27.920] Most people... think MGM versus Grokster... [09:27.920 --> 09:30.740] was like this terrible... uh... decision... [09:31.020 --> 09:32.460] you know... against file sharing... [09:32.460 --> 09:33.120] and stuff like that. [09:33.300 --> 09:35.360] But... I really don't read it that way... [09:35.360 --> 09:38.300] because as a... a veteran of copyright law... [09:38.300 --> 09:40.540] it actually sets the bar higher... [09:40.540 --> 09:42.460] than I've ever seen it set before... [09:42.460 --> 09:43.680] for secondary liability. [09:43.680 --> 09:46.000] It says that you cannot be liable... [09:46.000 --> 09:50.140] for someone else's... uh... copyright infringement... [09:50.140 --> 09:52.680] under secondary liability theory... [09:53.280 --> 09:53.970] unless you... [09:55.480 --> 09:57.860] intentionally... induced... or encouraged them. [09:58.880 --> 10:00.680] Now... most of these cases... [10:01.440 --> 10:03.180] where... in most of the cases... [10:03.180 --> 10:04.740] the defendant is completely innocent. [10:05.240 --> 10:06.920] In some of the cases... [10:06.920 --> 10:09.500] it was the defendant's Internet access account... [10:09.500 --> 10:11.320] that was used for file sharing... [10:11.320 --> 10:12.960] but the... the... the... [10:12.960 --> 10:12.960] the... [10:12.960 --> 10:13.600] but the defendant... [10:14.060 --> 10:15.420] didn't know anything about it. [10:15.940 --> 10:17.560] Sometimes it was... [10:17.560 --> 10:18.700] in some of the cases... [10:18.700 --> 10:19.680] it could have been some stranger... [10:20.040 --> 10:21.100] coasting off their signal... [10:21.100 --> 10:21.920] but in some cases... [10:21.920 --> 10:22.780] it could have been... [10:22.780 --> 10:24.740] a child... [10:24.740 --> 10:26.580] a friend of... of one of their children... [10:27.180 --> 10:28.940] there's a lot of cases where... [10:28.940 --> 10:30.300] uh... you know... [10:30.300 --> 10:31.500] a... a niece or nephew... [10:32.120 --> 10:34.520] all kinds of situations like that... [10:34.520 --> 10:35.580] that... that occur... [10:35.580 --> 10:37.380] where the defendant is being sued... [10:37.380 --> 10:40.060] Because it's something they didn't even know their computer could do. [10:41.300 --> 10:43.520] Because someone else might have done it. [10:43.960 --> 10:47.040] So the RIAA broached that subject. [10:47.360 --> 10:49.240] They've stayed away from it, but they've... [10:49.240 --> 10:51.060] In settlement, they're constantly... [10:51.060 --> 11:02.220] And in talks to judges, they're constantly saying that you're liable and you're responsible for what happens on your Internet access account, which is contrary to what MGM versus Grokster says. [11:02.980 --> 11:21.340] So in Capital versus Forster in Oklahoma, when the judge slammed them with $68,000 in attorney's fees, one of the things he pointed to is why he was assessing the attorney's fees was because they made this marginal accusation that the mother should be responsible for the daughter's infringement. [11:21.520 --> 11:23.660] And he just said there's no basis for that. [11:24.240 --> 11:27.240] Now, so you see the technology gives... [11:27.800 --> 11:33.880] The lack of technology, the lack of evidence, gives rise to these substantive copyright law claims that they're making. [11:34.060 --> 11:36.020] But then the circle goes back. [11:36.020 --> 11:38.360] Because these... [11:39.020 --> 11:45.120] If these legal theories are accepted, it's going to have an enormous effect on the world of technology. [11:45.460 --> 11:52.620] If the making available idea is accepted, I think the Internet gets shut down. [11:52.960 --> 11:55.680] Because the whole Internet is making things available. [11:55.680 --> 12:06.980] If I say, here's an article in the Wall Street Journal, and I quote a paragraph from it, and then put a link to it, and you go there and you say, well, this is a great article. [12:07.000 --> 12:12.000] I'm going to print out 25 copies and sell them on the street corner. [12:12.180 --> 12:14.600] Well, so you violated the copyright. [12:14.800 --> 12:17.240] And I'm liable for making it available. [12:17.520 --> 12:21.480] Did I ever say to you, you should go print copies and sell them on the street corner? [12:21.480 --> 12:26.100] But that's the kind of craziness that such a principle could lead to. [12:26.820 --> 12:28.160] And then the secondary liability. [12:28.160 --> 12:32.920] If you're liable for someone else's infringement, I mean, that could have an enormous effect. [12:33.060 --> 12:38.020] Number one, it could shut down the Internet because you have all these companies, the ISPs and stuff like that. [12:38.020 --> 12:44.100] What if they're liable for the copyright infringement by another person? [12:44.340 --> 12:53.180] It could prevent... it could make it so that the people who own computers, like parents, might not allow their children to have access to the computers. [12:53.980 --> 12:58.560] It could, in its own way, shut down the Internet. [13:00.940 --> 13:05.220] Now, lastly, I just want to say briefly, what can the tech community do? [13:05.220 --> 13:09.380] You know, I have no training in technology. [13:10.300 --> 13:16.780] In my office in 1991, I had... up to 1991, I had never even used a computer in my life. [13:17.220 --> 13:20.920] And I was the last person in the suite to even go near a computer. [13:21.160 --> 13:31.920] And only because my secretary moved to Florida that I had... and I had to get my... had to get access to my documents that I timidly ventured into WordPerfect. [13:31.920 --> 13:34.160] And, of course, the rest is history. [13:34.420 --> 13:35.480] It was a lot of fun. [13:35.620 --> 13:39.760] But, I mean, I don't have... I went to Bronx High School of Science and I had a pocket protector. [13:39.920 --> 13:44.020] But beyond those two things, I have no technology credentials. [13:44.360 --> 13:45.880] So, we need help. [13:45.940 --> 13:46.360] That's enough. [13:48.660 --> 13:49.760] We need help. [13:50.060 --> 13:53.660] And let me tell you, this economic imbalance permeates everything. [13:53.660 --> 14:00.320] Now, what makes me the leading technology lawyer in the RIAA cases? [14:00.780 --> 14:02.200] Well, here it is. [14:02.420 --> 14:04.900] In 40,000 cases... [14:04.900 --> 14:26.920] Do you know how many times a defendant has taken the deposition of the expert witness, the RIAA's expert witness, who spouts off with lies and baloney in these reform reports that he prints out, and based on nothingness, how many times has he been cross-examined at a deposition? [14:27.180 --> 14:27.880] Once. [14:28.600 --> 14:31.280] In 40,000 cases. [14:31.680 --> 14:32.180] Once. [14:33.260 --> 14:41.280] How many times has anyone taken the deposition of the investigator, media sentry? [14:42.680 --> 14:43.200] Zero. [14:44.060 --> 14:47.220] I was trying to get the deposition of media sentry. [14:47.640 --> 14:49.460] I had noticed the deposition. [14:49.700 --> 15:02.920] I had requested the backup data and documents, which we would need in order to determine the veracity, in order to be able to properly turn it over to our expert and see what it meant, and to cross-examine them. [15:03.080 --> 15:08.100] And the judge was refusing to permit us to have that. [15:08.100 --> 15:18.640] And while it was still under his consideration, the plaintiffs then, as they always do, withdrew the case, so that we'll never get to take media sentry's deposition. [15:19.580 --> 15:22.000] Want to know why it probably was withdrawn? [15:22.160 --> 15:32.100] Because media sentry is under investigation in various states for criminal violation of being an investigator without a license. [15:32.100 --> 15:40.740] And there wasn't a lawyer in the United States that would not advise his client under such circumstances to take the Fifth Amendment. [15:41.000 --> 15:47.560] While there is a criminal investigation going on, you cannot allow them to testify at a deposition in a civil matter. [15:48.180 --> 16:05.800] So I got further than anyone else, but now the RIAA is dropping the case, and they're claiming that it's my fault, and that they shouldn't be liable for attorney's fees, because my client, who's a home health aide who's never even used the computer, and who barely speaks English, [16:05.900 --> 16:12.340] and who's never even used the computer in her life, and me, it's our fault that they sued the wrong person. [16:18.800 --> 16:23.540] So how can the technical community help? [16:23.880 --> 16:41.260] We need expert witnesses who will work the way the lawyers are working, either pro bono or at very reduced prices, on the Internet, on peer-to-peer file sharing, on this whole media sentry investigation, to show... [16:41.260 --> 16:47.440] And if you read these materials, the deposition, you'll see what garbage it is. [16:47.540 --> 16:52.000] They admit that their process has no... it's never been peer-reviewed, it's never been tested by anybody. [16:52.420 --> 16:58.940] In any normal case, they would never be allowed to put that kind of junk into a courtroom. [16:59.760 --> 17:15.200] We need people who know about computer forensics, especially a hard drive, because they go around and they take these judges who know nothing about technology and convince them of crazy things. [17:15.520 --> 17:25.300] One elderly judge, they convinced him that the metadata in the files proves that they were illegally downloaded files. [17:28.540 --> 17:43.460] In another case, in Texas, they convinced the judge that because the computer automatically scheduled defragmentation of the hard drive, that that proves that they were trying to hide the evidence. [17:43.820 --> 17:45.480] That was spoliation of evidence. [17:45.580 --> 17:46.560] And the judge believed it. [17:46.800 --> 17:51.140] I mean, so, I mean, we really need the experts, but the people can't afford experts. [17:51.540 --> 17:55.180] Every day, I'm communicating back and forth with lawyers. [17:55.420 --> 18:01.680] So we need reasonably priced or pro bono experts to help out with these things, and on the forensics. [18:01.880 --> 18:21.140] And we need, some people might not be expert witnesses, but they can be consultants and work behind the scenes with the lawyers who don't know the technology well enough to help us prepare for depositions, to prepare and to ask the right questions, to ask for the right documents and data. [18:22.180 --> 18:24.180] We also need the tech community. [18:24.520 --> 18:33.080] Somebody has to take the initiative, I hope, to set up some kind of pool of people because the RIAA is fond of using trolls and shills. [18:33.800 --> 18:48.540] And I am very reluctant to take someone who I only know through an email or through Slashdot and to actually, or even through Grock Law, which is a very high caliber of people there. [18:48.740 --> 18:56.060] But there are trolls all over the place, and we certainly don't want to hire an expert who's working for the RIAA secretly. [18:56.860 --> 19:07.500] So, the Free Software Foundation has done a great job for us of setting up a fund, an expert witness defense fund, where whatever contributes... [19:07.500 --> 19:10.040] It's a 501 , so it's tax deductible. [19:10.380 --> 19:12.000] Anybody can contribute to it. [19:12.100 --> 19:17.720] And the money can only be used to pay expert witnesses and consultants helping defendants in these cases. [19:18.180 --> 19:20.140] Not much money has been put into it. [19:20.280 --> 19:36.460] It's insane to me that companies, that big companies that make all kinds of money from the Internet, haven't done anything to help the poor people fighting these cases, because this is the front line, and the Internet's at stake. [19:37.100 --> 19:45.160] And now I turn it over to my friend, Zi Mei, a web developer and tech consultant, and most importantly, a good friend. [19:45.160 --> 19:46.100] Okay, [19:54.790 --> 19:58.890] thanks, Ray, and thank you everyone for joining us today on this little talk. [19:59.130 --> 20:04.910] I'll just speak briefly about my involvement with these cases. [20:05.510 --> 20:10.970] Let me just plug in my Mac over here first, so you can see what some of the visual aids that I have. [20:17.620 --> 20:26.360] All right, so my involvement with Ray started about three years ago at the onset of the UMG versus Lindor case. [20:26.580 --> 20:33.540] As Ray mentioned, she's a home healthcare worker who doesn't speak English, if I'm...is that correct? [20:34.120 --> 20:34.880] Not well. [20:35.040 --> 20:35.500] Not well. [20:36.860 --> 20:37.340] So... [20:37.340 --> 20:38.380] Can you put the light back on? [20:39.840 --> 20:40.220] Can you put the light back on? [20:40.220 --> 20:40.820] You can't read it. [20:41.060 --> 20:41.480] It's your screen. [20:41.960 --> 20:43.700] It's not so important yet. [20:43.860 --> 20:46.320] I can read it back to you guys. [20:47.320 --> 20:50.080] But let me start with a brief background. [20:50.480 --> 20:57.520] So this woman who basically got sued for file sharing a whole bunch of songs. [20:57.660 --> 21:01.900] A lot of them are like hip-hop songs and rap and stuff like that. [21:01.900 --> 21:08.560] Like the usual story of an elderly person being sued for file sharing things that she probably has no idea about. [21:09.520 --> 21:15.880] So let me start with some of the sort of the quotes from industry figures and what they say. [21:16.800 --> 21:22.700] You know, some of the things that they characterize people that use MP3 devices. [21:23.200 --> 21:26.940] So Doug Morris...let me pull up a picture of him here. [21:29.780 --> 21:32.260] This is Doug Morris. [21:32.640 --> 21:38.840] He is the CEO of Universal Media Group. [21:39.060 --> 21:46.340] And he says about people that have MP3 devices, basically we're thieves. [21:46.560 --> 21:49.800] You know, these devices are just repositories of stolen music. [21:50.040 --> 21:51.120] You know, that's what he says. [21:51.360 --> 21:54.020] That is...that is completely insane. [21:54.020 --> 21:54.720] I mean, I'm... [21:54.720 --> 21:56.060] It puts stolen music in it. [21:56.180 --> 21:56.420] It is. [21:56.520 --> 22:00.820] But that's like saying any...that's like saying that a bag of a passport is stolen merchandise. [22:01.080 --> 22:01.760] I mean, it can be. [22:01.900 --> 22:02.300] Right. [22:02.580 --> 22:02.980] Of course. [22:03.280 --> 22:11.220] You know, but this is how he characterizes people that have iPods, creative, you know, creative MP3 players, Zune. [22:12.140 --> 22:12.500] Right. [22:13.180 --> 22:13.640] Right. [22:14.140 --> 22:20.240] Most people, you know, yeah, there are some people who put on songs that they download from somewhere illegally. [22:20.640 --> 22:23.320] But most people just put their CDs on. [22:23.400 --> 22:29.400] They don't want to carry around a whole bunch of discs in their bag when they go out to take the train or whatever it is. [22:29.480 --> 22:32.640] Only about legitimate online music research in many cases also. [22:32.760 --> 22:32.860] Right. [22:32.860 --> 22:37.620] So this is another quote from Jennifer Pariser, who is the head litigator for Sony. [22:37.620 --> 22:45.420] And she says when you make a copy of your music, that they can say you stole their song. [22:46.080 --> 22:52.860] It's...this is how these industry figures are characterizing people that have MP3 players and music lovers. [22:53.080 --> 22:58.240] This is how they're characterizing us to the press, to the courts, and to the general public. [22:58.440 --> 22:59.560] And I think this is wrong. [22:59.920 --> 23:06.620] You know, it's very destructive and it's very hurtful to technology and innovation. [23:07.620 --> 23:13.000] To say that iPod is just a big repository for stolen music is just insane and absurd. [23:14.780 --> 23:14.840] Okay. [23:14.920 --> 23:18.760] So that's Doug Morris, who's the big bad guy. [23:19.160 --> 23:24.620] This next guy is...this handsome fellow is Dr. Doug Jacobson, who is... [23:25.940 --> 23:28.040] I don't know if you can see the whole entire screen here. [23:28.820 --> 23:30.640] Let me just go back a little bit. [23:30.720 --> 23:30.920] Okay. [23:30.920 --> 23:36.220] He is the expert witness or the so-called expert witness for the RIAA. [23:36.800 --> 23:41.380] He is a University of...I think it's Iowa here. [23:41.600 --> 23:48.760] Yes, Iowa State University computer scientist, so-called expert witness in these RIAA cases. [23:49.060 --> 23:55.080] But I use the word expert very loosely because he has no credentials whatsoever. [23:56.120 --> 23:59.520] He is not certified by any professional body. [23:59.900 --> 24:04.900] Let me pull up his...his deposition here. [24:05.640 --> 24:17.420] So I was at...so as Ray said, we are the only ones that have actually deposed a RIAA expert. [24:19.100 --> 24:21.000] And let me see where...here we go. [24:23.780 --> 24:30.960] So as you can see here, Ray asked Doug Jacobson, by what body are you certified as an engineer? [24:31.220 --> 24:33.720] And his response was, by no professional society. [24:35.000 --> 24:38.200] You know, is there any organization that has certified you as an engineer? [24:38.400 --> 24:39.420] His answer is no. [24:40.060 --> 24:41.420] Basically, he's a bullshit artist. [24:41.800 --> 24:43.440] So basically, he's a bullshit artist. [24:43.680 --> 24:44.800] So he would fail the... [24:44.800 --> 24:45.600] And a bad liar. [24:45.600 --> 24:46.500] And a bad liar. [24:46.680 --> 24:47.520] And let me get to that. [24:47.660 --> 24:51.020] He will say anything that the RIAA wants him to say. [24:51.100 --> 24:52.340] He's basically a whore. [24:52.800 --> 24:57.360] He'll make up...he'll say anything that will get him paid. [24:57.540 --> 24:59.740] You know, he's not a computer scientist. [25:00.060 --> 25:04.920] He's not a credited member of the scientific community. [25:04.920 --> 25:10.820] You know, so are you a member of any peer-regulated society? [25:10.840 --> 25:14.920] Are you recognized by any industry groups? [25:15.560 --> 25:19.800] And he says, no, I do not have a professional engineering license. [25:20.040 --> 25:21.900] So he's basically a bullshit artist. [25:22.060 --> 25:26.980] And the scary thing is that he teaches classes on this stuff, on engineering and networking. [25:28.660 --> 25:33.100] So, but back to his sort of lack of credentials and the Daubert test. [25:33.340 --> 25:37.620] So in court, maybe Ray can explain this a little bit better since he's the lawyer and I'm not. [25:38.500 --> 25:46.320] Expert witnesses basically have to fulfill certain requirements to be considered experts and to have their testimony admitted in court. [25:46.940 --> 25:59.860] Basically, one requirement is that the...that their results and findings are scientific and that they are...their methods have been subject to peer review and scrutiny by the tech community. [26:00.660 --> 26:04.180] And Ray, what are some other Daubert kind of things that... [26:04.180 --> 26:05.380] They're supposed to be testing. [26:05.680 --> 26:09.440] They're supposed...testing for false positives. [26:09.640 --> 26:13.380] Supposed to be publishing, peer review. [26:14.140 --> 26:16.900] It's supposed to have been taught by an accredited body. [26:17.060 --> 26:18.380] He testified that he... [26:19.420 --> 26:20.840] Where did you learn it? [26:20.960 --> 26:22.300] I taught it to myself. [26:23.300 --> 26:24.520] Has it ever been published? [26:25.320 --> 26:25.440] No. [26:25.540 --> 26:26.580] Has it ever been peer-reviewed? [26:26.620 --> 26:26.720] No. [26:26.800 --> 26:27.680] Has it ever been anything? [26:27.960 --> 26:29.860] And the answer was no to everything. [26:30.000 --> 26:33.940] And then when I asked him about media centuries methods, I asked him the same question. [26:34.100 --> 26:35.260] He didn't have any clue. [26:35.340 --> 26:37.000] And of course, they never have been. [26:38.000 --> 26:40.800] And the judge ruled that he could testify anyway. [26:45.940 --> 26:50.000] So, he's basically...he's basically a paid liar for the RIAA. [26:50.260 --> 26:54.460] In all these...in all these cases, he's their expert witness. [26:54.800 --> 26:55.660] Is that right, Ray? [26:55.820 --> 26:56.840] Or most of these cases? [26:57.180 --> 26:57.520] All. [26:57.540 --> 27:02.260] At this rate, maybe the other side, next time, bring in a house plan. [27:02.440 --> 27:02.900] That's the next one. [27:03.120 --> 27:04.400] Maybe he'd allow that too. [27:04.880 --> 27:05.320] Probably. [27:05.540 --> 27:08.300] Some of these judges are very, very tech illiterate. [27:08.960 --> 27:13.600] They're even hostile to some of the things that we ask for and the things that we say. [27:13.600 --> 27:31.040] What he does have going for him is he's a partner with a company that manufactures the Audible Magic filtering software, which is being sold to the universities and other LAN operators as a way of getting the RIAA to stop suing. [27:31.240 --> 27:38.900] So, in other words, if he didn't get a penny as an expert witness, he's making a ton of money from the threat of these lawsuits. [27:38.900 --> 27:40.780] They got Ohio University. [27:41.100 --> 27:44.600] They targeted Ohio University as one of the universities they were targeting. [27:44.900 --> 28:05.000] And then, when Ohio University agreed to write out a check to his business partner for $76,000, for $60,000 for the software and $16,000 for the first year's maintenance, no more lawyers, no more letters, no more DMCA notices. [28:05.000 --> 28:10.800] So, this guy is going around helping the lawsuits, which help make him all kinds of money. [28:11.920 --> 28:19.940] Right, so there's a... it's in his self-interest to keep spewing these lies and selling this software that basically is just voodoo. [28:20.100 --> 28:21.340] We don't know what it does. [28:21.580 --> 28:38.740] He says he's the chief technology officer of Palisades Systems, which makes this audible magic network detection kind of algorithm or software, which would monitor P2P networks on campuses and schools and that sort of thing. [28:38.900 --> 28:41.160] Can you say modern steak oil salesman? [28:41.200 --> 28:43.440] Yep, that's what I would say. [28:43.560 --> 28:44.460] Or a whore. [28:45.440 --> 28:49.380] And if you try to actually go to his homepage, it doesn't actually... there's nothing in there. [28:49.380 --> 28:56.760] So, maybe he took it down for fear of us kind of hacking it or making him look bad or just seeing his bullshit, basically. [28:57.160 --> 28:58.600] In the back, someone has a question. [29:04.020 --> 29:04.520] Yes. [29:08.650 --> 29:09.450] Excuse me. [29:09.630 --> 29:09.970] Yes. [29:10.250 --> 29:11.490] Excuse me for being naive. [29:12.870 --> 29:40.350] If I'm in jury selection and I find a juror who I believe is either compromised or in any way going to jeopardize the outcome of my trial, whether I'm the defense or the DA, the prosecuting attorney, I have a method in which to eliminate them from the jury. [29:40.350 --> 29:47.490] Similarly, if I can prove a witness is unreliable or, you know, etc., etc., etc., I can... [29:47.490 --> 29:53.290] There are methods, I assume, that I could use to make that witness not believable. [29:53.850 --> 30:09.330] Why is it the case that if all these things are supposed to be true about expert witnesses, that this moron can still have such an effect on these trials? [30:10.730 --> 30:12.090] There are no trials. [30:12.090 --> 30:13.470] I don't know what you're referring to. [30:13.570 --> 30:16.030] There's been only one trial that we're aware of. [30:17.630 --> 30:19.530] So, these are congressional... [30:21.350 --> 30:30.470] The RIA, as I mentioned, their typical scenario is to discontinue the case before the trial. [30:37.850 --> 30:41.830] I guess I'm going to speak for a little bit longer than I intended, but... [30:43.610 --> 30:45.330] Ray wants me not to speak as much. [30:45.490 --> 30:47.970] But this guy is Dr. Powels. [30:48.110 --> 30:53.050] He's an assistant professor of Delft University of Technology in the Netherlands. [30:53.050 --> 30:59.590] And, basically, he's one of the experts that we relied upon to discredit Dr. Jacobson. [30:59.830 --> 31:06.770] And he calls Jacobson, basically, borderline incompetent, which I would have to agree with. [31:07.050 --> 31:12.130] Because some of his, you know, his methods, Dr. Jacobson's methods are untested. [31:12.270 --> 31:12.930] They're unpublished. [31:13.030 --> 31:13.830] They're his own making. [31:14.070 --> 31:18.010] And he doesn't even follow proper scientific procedure. [31:18.630 --> 31:23.530] This is a printout from the Encase Forensics website. [31:23.730 --> 31:30.770] This is one of the main tools used by consultants in the law field who do hard drive forensics. [31:31.050 --> 31:35.230] And, as you can see on number four here, it says document findings. [31:35.870 --> 31:39.470] You know, that is what you have to do when you do any kind of scientific inquiry. [31:39.910 --> 31:44.510] The scientific method you might have learned in elementary school, you know, how to devise an experiment. [31:44.510 --> 31:47.110] To, you know, you record your procedures. [31:47.590 --> 31:52.130] You document everything so that other people can verify what you've done for accuracy. [31:52.490 --> 31:58.030] And they can reproduce the results to either confirm what you found or to refute your findings. [31:58.930 --> 32:04.990] So, what Dr. Jacobson, when we asked if he produced any kind of documents, this is what he says. [32:17.920 --> 32:20.200] Okay, let me find here. [32:23.200 --> 32:24.100] Okay, here we go. [32:24.460 --> 32:26.060] Do you generate any reports? [32:26.600 --> 32:27.860] Is what Ray asked him. [32:27.960 --> 32:28.380] He says no. [32:29.740 --> 32:32.560] Now, I'm not asking if you printed out reports or saved reports. [32:32.680 --> 32:33.920] I'm asking if you generated reports. [32:34.100 --> 32:34.760] He says no. [32:35.220 --> 32:37.980] Now, how do you do forensics without generating reports? [32:37.980 --> 32:39.440] I don't know what he was looking at. [32:42.040 --> 32:45.000] So, he says, you know, we didn't find anything. [32:45.180 --> 32:46.360] So, there was nothing to document. [32:47.460 --> 32:48.400] So, let's see. [32:48.420 --> 32:49.420] I examined the hard drive. [32:49.520 --> 32:49.760] Here we go. [32:49.860 --> 32:50.760] I examined the hard drive. [32:50.900 --> 32:53.580] Found no evidence of file sharing software or audio files. [32:53.700 --> 32:54.740] So, there was nothing to document. [32:55.240 --> 32:57.680] So, basically, we have no idea what he did. [32:57.860 --> 32:59.000] What kind of procedure he followed. [32:59.220 --> 33:02.200] What kind of investigation he conducted. [33:02.480 --> 33:05.240] But there's no scientific basis for any of his stuff. [33:05.240 --> 33:06.080] He's just... [33:06.080 --> 33:09.260] I don't even know if he even looked at the hard drive, frankly. [33:12.920 --> 33:16.860] So, that's the kind of science, you know, he kind of spouts. [33:17.460 --> 33:22.360] This is a printout from an elementary school in Tennessee. [33:25.240 --> 33:25.700] Okay. [33:25.860 --> 33:26.340] Number four. [33:27.340 --> 33:28.340] Write your procedures. [33:28.600 --> 33:29.160] Tell what you did. [33:29.500 --> 33:30.780] You know, write down everything. [33:30.980 --> 33:32.540] List each thing that you do. [33:32.680 --> 33:33.600] Number each step in order. [33:33.600 --> 33:34.620] Write down everything you do. [33:34.840 --> 33:38.280] Others should be able to repeat your experiment by reading your procedures. [33:38.560 --> 33:39.000] Okay. [33:39.100 --> 33:41.760] This is something that they teach to, you know, ten-year-olds. [33:42.740 --> 33:44.660] So, you know, he's... [33:45.420 --> 33:48.840] Jacobson's basically, you know, he's sort of a quack. [33:50.460 --> 33:50.900] Here's... [33:50.900 --> 33:54.920] I'll wrap up in a bit and open up the floor to questions. [33:54.920 --> 33:56.800] But let me just pull up a few more other things. [33:57.020 --> 33:58.640] Some of the wackiness that he says. [34:00.500 --> 34:07.400] So, in all these cases, the RIAA says that the defendant did not have a wireless router. [34:07.660 --> 34:09.160] And you can see why they would say that. [34:09.480 --> 34:13.340] You know, they want to preempt the possibility of a defense that's... [34:13.820 --> 34:15.260] It was an open wireless network. [34:15.420 --> 34:19.020] Anyone could just come on and surf on the signal and do all kinds of things. [34:19.020 --> 34:22.090] And the owner would be...the owner of the account would be blamed. [34:23.460 --> 34:32.400] So, we asked Dr. Jacobson how he knew that there was no wireless network used by the defendant. [34:34.180 --> 34:34.660] Okay. [34:34.820 --> 34:37.460] So, we asked him, you know, and he answers correctly. [34:37.460 --> 34:40.720] Does an IP address tell you if a device is wired or wireless? [34:40.960 --> 34:41.700] He says, no. [34:42.040 --> 34:43.180] That's the correct answer. [34:46.720 --> 34:47.320] Let's see. [34:47.320 --> 34:50.060] Now, we go down a few more pages. [34:51.200 --> 34:52.980] And here's his nonsense explanation. [34:53.240 --> 34:57.380] Now, he says...now, when you say wireless router and then say no, how do you know there's no wireless? [34:57.820 --> 35:00.580] He says, again, by looking at exhibit six. [35:01.080 --> 35:01.240] Okay. [35:01.280 --> 35:05.940] Exhibit six is this...this exhibit. [35:06.100 --> 35:08.320] It's just a long list of metadata. [35:09.820 --> 35:16.500] And I don't know how you can tell that this is not a wireless network by looking at this metadata of all these, you know, MP3s. [35:17.320 --> 35:20.060] I don't see where it says not on a wireless network. [35:21.340 --> 35:39.540] I see some destination and source IP addresses, but, you know, it's just the IP address and a port, which, as you know, from basic networking, you cannot find out if a device behind a router, how many devices there are, what kind of device it is. [35:39.540 --> 35:43.120] You just have the public Internet address and a port. [35:44.720 --> 35:48.040] So here's his nonsensical explanation. [35:49.440 --> 35:56.820] Again, these are all public IP addresses on both the computer and the device that put the IP packet on the Internet, both at the same IP. [35:59.340 --> 36:06.840] And if you can understand that, I mean, I'm hopeful that you can explain it to me and make sense of his kind of bullshit here. [36:07.940 --> 36:18.080] Now, as he was giving me this bullshit explanation at the deposition, he looks over to me nervously and I noticed that he was trying to figure out if I was going to react in some way. [36:18.080 --> 36:20.880] So he has a really shitty poker face also. [36:21.120 --> 36:28.080] He knew he was lying when he said he could find out, you know, he says he could determine if it's a wireless or a wired network. [36:29.400 --> 36:32.920] So he's a bad liar and a bad poker face. [36:34.840 --> 36:36.920] Let me see if I have any more things. [36:38.680 --> 36:42.720] Here's another, okay, this is my final thing and I'll open up the floor to discussion. [36:43.360 --> 36:46.860] This is from Verizon. [36:47.160 --> 36:57.960] This is when the RIAA subpoenaed Verizon for their IP addresses and who was assigned this IP address. [36:58.420 --> 37:01.500] Now, notice here, this is from their customer service tool. [37:01.800 --> 37:03.180] Now, you see a whole bunch of problems here. [37:03.280 --> 37:04.320] You see a missing image. [37:04.480 --> 37:07.940] Okay, that's obviously something broken on their website. [37:07.940 --> 37:09.560] You see errors. [37:09.880 --> 37:12.600] You see different kinds of missing images here. [37:13.000 --> 37:14.900] And you also see something very interesting. [37:15.060 --> 37:19.340] Marie Lindor, Texas, 75038 as the ZIP Code. [37:19.460 --> 37:20.580] Now, that's Irving, Texas. [37:21.140 --> 37:23.660] Now, this woman is a resident of Brooklyn. [37:24.020 --> 37:29.040] Now, why they have a Texas address on here, that is just completely bizarre. [37:29.880 --> 37:34.300] You know, and there's in here in this test results, there's errors recorded. [37:34.300 --> 37:38.940] But, you know, there's no explanation for what they are, what they might be. [37:39.080 --> 37:44.020] And there's no attempts by the plaintiffs to verify this. [37:44.320 --> 37:49.320] I mean, this is the obvious red light when you have someone who is in Texas. [37:49.660 --> 37:53.920] You know, that would make you sort of question the validity of this report. [37:55.540 --> 38:05.920] So, these are just some of the crap that the record companies are presenting to the judges and saying, hey, this is evidence. [38:05.920 --> 38:10.640] This is what proves that this person was downloading or uploading files. [38:10.640 --> 38:18.600] But these companies have all this money and they can just throw documents at the judges and they'll buy it. [38:18.920 --> 38:27.060] You know, they've been very hostile to us because we're defending people that don't have a lot of money, don't have a lot of resources. [38:28.170 --> 38:32.060] And, you know, so it's a big David and Goliath kind of thing where it's an uphill struggle. [38:32.060 --> 38:41.640] We can't even get MediaCentry to give us one bit of information about their investigation because, basically, I think it's just a whole bunch of us smoke and mirrors. [38:41.880 --> 38:46.540] They really don't have a process that's reliable, that's scientific. [38:46.560 --> 38:55.020] It's just probably some guy that they're paying to get on Kazaa and just take screenshots and just take hundreds and hundreds of screenshots. [38:55.680 --> 38:56.900] But it's a black box. [38:56.980 --> 38:58.160] We don't know what their process is. [38:58.240 --> 39:00.800] We don't know how inaccurate it is. [39:00.800 --> 39:05.580] And from looking at some of these documents, you know, they don't make any attempts to verify any of this data. [39:05.720 --> 39:07.520] There's no scientific credibility there. [39:09.060 --> 39:10.700] And I think that's... [39:10.700 --> 39:12.300] I'll open it up to questions now. [39:12.440 --> 39:13.240] I'm sure you have a whole bunch. [39:13.780 --> 39:18.180] So, fire away if you want to know more about this. [39:19.100 --> 39:21.880] And for future research... [39:21.880 --> 39:24.160] Can I have the video? [39:25.340 --> 39:28.580] My blog, it's Recording Industry Versus the People. [39:28.580 --> 39:34.860] That's where you can read up on these documents. [39:39.030 --> 39:41.650] So, okay. [39:42.970 --> 39:44.050] HOPE is what? [39:44.170 --> 39:45.130] 26 years old? [39:45.870 --> 39:45.950] What? [39:46.390 --> 39:49.350] 2600 is 26 years old. [39:49.590 --> 39:50.470] HOPE is what? [39:50.570 --> 39:51.810] 18 years old? [39:51.950 --> 39:52.530] Something like that? [39:52.530 --> 39:54.470] The reason why I ask is this. [39:55.290 --> 39:56.730] We all talk about these... [39:56.730 --> 40:03.190] I don't mean to be ageist, but we all talk about these quote-unquote older judges that quote-unquote don't know anything about technology. [40:03.770 --> 40:06.530] And we all know that's going to change relatively soon. [40:07.210 --> 40:11.450] Now, judges are not supposed to take kickbacks. [40:12.070 --> 40:20.510] So, what are you guys' or, you know, anyone in the room, what are you guys' thoughts about how long it'll take before judges become a little bit more hip? [40:20.770 --> 40:23.290] Judges are becoming more aware. [40:24.990 --> 40:27.150] I think they were caught off guard. [40:27.410 --> 40:35.610] I have an article coming out in August in the Judges' Journal of the American Bar Association, their publication for judges. [40:35.890 --> 40:40.890] I was invited to write this article for their equal access to justice issue. [40:41.730 --> 40:45.390] And it's evident that the judges are... [40:45.390 --> 40:48.510] In the first instance, they were caught off guard. [40:48.690 --> 40:52.470] They saw all these cases with big papers, big law firms. [40:52.930 --> 40:54.810] The defendants weren't represented. [40:55.150 --> 40:59.110] Most of the cases were ex parte cases where defendants weren't even notified. [40:59.310 --> 41:00.130] There was a case. [41:01.030 --> 41:04.970] When the defendants were finally sued, there were default judgments. [41:05.390 --> 41:09.770] There were people showing up without lawyers because there's no way they could afford a lawyer. [41:09.770 --> 41:11.850] So the judges were caught off guard. [41:12.030 --> 41:14.750] They had these big law firms, big papers. [41:15.070 --> 41:20.610] But it's evident that during the past year or two, they're starting to get wise. [41:21.550 --> 41:24.510] Not all of them, but more and more. [41:24.730 --> 41:28.990] The tide has turned and they are going to lose. [41:30.890 --> 41:33.050] And it is now becoming... [41:33.050 --> 41:48.210] You have a judge who just conducted this highly publicized trial in Minnesota and now has publicly humiliated himself by saying that he committed a manifest error of law. [41:48.690 --> 41:51.490] I've been in the litigation field for 34 years. [41:51.670 --> 41:53.570] I have never seen that happen before. [41:53.810 --> 41:54.170] Never. [41:54.950 --> 42:01.290] So how do you think that judge feels knowing that he was misled by these lawyers? [42:01.290 --> 42:08.670] And when he wrote that decision, he didn't even know that he had been misled on something even more serious. [42:09.150 --> 42:23.050] Because the nature of his having been misled was the failure to bring to the judge's attention a controlling contrary authority that the other side should have briefed, but incompetently did not brief. [42:25.610 --> 42:31.490] Well, that's something that a lawyer, you might almost say, well, that's kind of a technical thing. [42:31.610 --> 42:33.850] That's one of those rules that's a little hard to live with. [42:34.290 --> 42:38.150] Telling a judge that there's an authority against your client's position. [42:38.310 --> 42:39.750] It's required of us. [42:40.690 --> 42:43.230] But nobody really wants to do that. [42:43.750 --> 42:54.910] But they did something even more extreme that the judge didn't know about, which is that there was one of the two cases they were relying on had been reversed a week earlier. [42:55.190 --> 42:58.610] The judge in that case had vacated his decision. [42:59.690 --> 43:01.470] And they didn't tell the judge. [43:02.350 --> 43:05.090] They had an obligation to tell the judge and they didn't. [43:05.630 --> 43:09.030] And the judge is going to be livid. [43:10.210 --> 43:13.450] The Duluth News Tribune asked me to write something. [43:14.610 --> 43:19.830] And I wrote something because there's an oral argument coming up on August 4th. [43:19.890 --> 43:31.850] And I said... I closed my article by saying, if you want to see a federal judge who's hopping mad, be in the Duluth Federal Courthouse on August 4th at 10 a.m. [43:33.010 --> 43:34.490] Okay, next question. [43:36.370 --> 43:38.090] I'll make a comment first. [43:38.970 --> 43:44.030] I've noticed that even newer lawyers are not exactly what I'd call technically competent. [43:44.890 --> 43:50.310] I found the last comment I got from a fellow colleague was when I was using Ubuntu at work. [43:50.310 --> 43:51.470] He said, that's illegal. [43:54.070 --> 43:55.910] Okay, snide comment aside. [43:56.190 --> 43:56.790] I'm a lawyer. [43:56.910 --> 43:57.470] I'm a techie. [43:57.630 --> 43:58.470] What can I do to help? [44:00.850 --> 44:02.410] You're a lawyer and a techie? [44:02.610 --> 44:02.750] Yep. [44:03.390 --> 44:05.150] You could represent some of these people. [44:06.130 --> 44:06.850] I'll give you my card. [44:07.630 --> 44:09.270] Okay, and join up. [44:09.410 --> 44:11.190] We have a directory of defense lawyers. [44:12.910 --> 44:16.610] I put people in there who I think will help fight for these people. [44:16.830 --> 44:20.390] And a lawyer with a technical background is especially priceless. [44:21.850 --> 44:37.330] What can information security people and general counsel at the various ISPs do to combat subpoenas, DMCA takedown notices, and like the pre-litigation settlement letters that come in? [44:38.030 --> 44:42.290] Well, the pre-litigation settlement letters have no legal standing whatsoever. [44:43.010 --> 44:48.510] And I think what I would like to see happen is I'd like to see... [44:49.150 --> 44:54.030] Although there are many who say, well, they should just be dumped in the waste basket or this or that. [44:54.030 --> 44:56.370] Personally, I think they are not that important. [44:56.590 --> 45:02.930] What I would like to see... I'd like to see you negotiate with the RIAA and say, listen, we'll pass these along for you. [45:03.430 --> 45:11.810] If you agree that as to anybody who does not settle with you, you will not bring a secret ex-parte proceeding, you'll bring a proceeding on notice. [45:12.050 --> 45:16.110] You'll give us copies of all of your papers and we'll transmit them to the John Doe's. [45:16.110 --> 45:18.010] I would like to see that happen. [45:21.490 --> 45:25.470] For future cases, are you going to need more expert witnesses? [45:25.770 --> 45:30.670] And if so, how can we do what needs to be done to become expert witnesses? [45:31.130 --> 45:31.970] Well, absolutely. [45:32.190 --> 45:49.710] What people need to do is find the lawyers in the closest geographical area that are working on these cases and let them know of their credentials and their availability and the fact that they would be willing to work for a reduced fee and that's the way to do it. [45:53.940 --> 45:57.400] Excellent presentation and thank you so much for all of your great work. [45:57.760 --> 45:58.260] Thank you. [45:58.480 --> 46:06.580] Is there not an easy mechanism that could be established to go against the RIAA and so get them for damages for all the ridiculous things they're doing? [46:07.300 --> 46:07.460] Yeah. [46:07.460 --> 46:10.160] And would that mechanism help quell the whole... [46:11.960 --> 46:13.760] There's no easy way to do that. [46:14.760 --> 46:17.940] There are different causes of action for malicious prosecution. [46:17.940 --> 46:21.840] In some states, you could sue someone for bringing a frivolous case. [46:22.040 --> 46:24.220] You could actually bring a cause of action for damages. [46:24.540 --> 46:26.200] In some states, you can't. [46:26.560 --> 46:28.360] So it varies from state to state. [46:28.520 --> 46:32.860] Right now, there's a class action in Oregon in the Tanya Anderson case. [46:33.520 --> 46:37.100] They sued this young woman. [46:37.340 --> 46:38.040] She was disabled. [46:38.700 --> 46:40.480] She lived on Social Security disability. [46:41.500 --> 46:43.780] She didn't have a clue what any of this is about. [46:43.920 --> 46:45.280] She'd never done any file sharing. [46:45.480 --> 46:47.880] Her seven-year-old daughter had never done any file sharing. [46:48.440 --> 46:49.760] She begged them to stop. [46:49.900 --> 46:54.860] She offered to let them have her hard drive and go through it and verify. [46:54.860 --> 46:57.260] And they said, no, we want the money. [46:57.860 --> 47:01.620] And we found her a good lawyer who took the case pro bono. [47:02.000 --> 47:03.120] Didn't receive a nickel. [47:03.400 --> 47:06.480] But they're targeting the people who are least able to defend themselves. [47:06.580 --> 47:08.030] And that to me is absolutely inexcusable. [47:08.720 --> 47:09.640] It's inexcusable. [47:09.640 --> 47:14.420] And that's why we need help from every quarter we can get. [47:14.520 --> 47:20.920] Because the legal system doesn't really protect people against abuses like that. [47:21.020 --> 47:26.920] Like, that's why Electronic Frontier Foundation is pursuing this case against universal music. [47:27.360 --> 47:34.940] Where they go do a takedown notice and threaten lawsuit over a two-year-old dancing to a Prince song. [47:35.200 --> 47:36.700] I mean, it's so important. [47:36.700 --> 47:40.420] And there are cases now coming down in the... [47:40.420 --> 47:46.700] Several have come down in the Seventh Circuit saying that when a defendant... [47:46.700 --> 47:47.580] When the RIAA... [47:47.580 --> 47:48.560] Well, not the RIAA. [47:48.660 --> 47:55.240] When the plaintiff in a copyright case drops their case, it's very, very important for the defendant to get the attorney's fees. [47:55.740 --> 47:58.840] Because the plaintiffs have all kinds of economic incentives. [47:59.180 --> 48:03.160] They have a big library of a portfolio of copyrights. [48:03.320 --> 48:04.900] The defendant has no incentive. [48:04.900 --> 48:06.220] They just got this one case. [48:06.340 --> 48:07.840] You have to give them attorney's fees. [48:10.340 --> 48:15.180] A while ago, I heard about the RIAA being brought up on charges of racketeering. [48:15.820 --> 48:19.220] Since I heard that, I haven't heard anything else about it. [48:19.320 --> 48:21.320] Have you or anybody else? [48:21.600 --> 48:22.100] Yes. [48:22.320 --> 48:24.000] Well, it's not going anywhere. [48:24.000 --> 48:31.940] I mean, I was starting to tell you about the case of Anderson versus Atlantic where Tanya Anderson brought a class action. [48:32.300 --> 48:35.420] And she brought it on various causes of action. [48:35.420 --> 48:39.800] But the judge didn't feel that there was a good enough RICO claim and it had to be taken out. [48:40.360 --> 48:45.440] Now, maybe they can come back with that information later, but it's very technical to prove RICO. [48:45.440 --> 48:51.360] And almost every cause of action you could bring against them is very technical and very difficult. [48:51.640 --> 48:55.300] Recently, I was researching the Computer Fraud and Abuse Act. [48:55.860 --> 49:08.580] Because as to those defendants whose computer was actually accessed, which is possibly less than half, as to them, don't they have a good claim under the Computer Fraud and Abuse Act? [49:08.920 --> 49:13.060] Because Media Century, without authorization, accessed their computer. [49:13.720 --> 49:26.660] But I noticed that the statute has been amended to provide that you have to prove that you suffered a personal injury or to prove that you suffered $5,000 in one year in economic loss. [49:27.160 --> 49:31.400] So, it's going to be very hard for people to actually satisfy that statute. [49:31.400 --> 49:34.780] So, there aren't a lot of great statutes. [49:34.960 --> 49:41.340] Now, in Florida, there was a case where they counter claimed for conspiracy to commit crimes. [49:41.580 --> 49:44.620] Now, in certain states, there is such a tort. [49:45.160 --> 49:48.540] In other states, like New York, there is no such tort. [49:48.920 --> 49:54.040] In Florida, the judge said that's a legally sufficient claim and he's allowing it to proceed. [49:54.420 --> 50:01.320] So, you know, people are raising these arguments when they can, but the law isn't great in that area. [50:01.800 --> 50:03.820] So, we have time for one more question. [50:04.120 --> 50:04.180] Sure. [50:04.180 --> 50:06.140] So, anyone else can just email us or... [50:06.140 --> 50:10.900] At the expense of being lynched in this room, I am on the other side of the table. [50:11.120 --> 50:14.700] I'm an attorney and a techie and I work for a major media corporation. [50:15.280 --> 50:18.360] And so, I'm often the guy who has to go after people. [50:19.280 --> 50:20.840] And I think your talk is very interesting. [50:21.540 --> 50:22.420] What's your question? [50:22.420 --> 50:25.880] My question is, what do you think about real theft? [50:26.300 --> 50:28.660] I'm very careful about finding real thieves. [50:29.160 --> 50:30.380] We don't sue people who are... [50:30.380 --> 50:37.800] Well, I will tell you that the RIAA's litigation campaign against these 40,000 people has never found a real thief. [50:38.100 --> 50:39.840] Real pirates do not... [50:39.840 --> 50:42.700] Real pirates do not use Kazaa. [50:43.340 --> 50:44.140] That's right. [50:44.460 --> 50:45.900] So, give me a break, alright? [50:46.380 --> 50:46.860] Thank you. [50:47.300 --> 50:48.640] I answered your question, sir. [50:48.640 --> 50:50.980] I'm against copyright infringement. [50:51.100 --> 50:53.500] I've been working in copyright law for 34 years. [50:53.680 --> 50:56.000] And I'm against copyright infringement. [50:56.100 --> 51:01.100] And if the RIAA's campaign was based on evidence and law, I wouldn't be here, sir. [51:01.840 --> 51:02.140] Thank you. [51:08.770 --> 51:12.230] So, my blog is Recording Industry Versus the People. [51:14.670 --> 51:17.450] It's recordingindustryvspeople.blogspot.com. [51:17.730 --> 51:20.190] I apologize for it being so long. [51:20.410 --> 51:23.670] If I had known it was going to be popular, I would have made it shorter. [51:23.670 --> 51:24.810] That's what it is. [51:25.170 --> 51:29.550] You feel free to email me there or to submit questions by comments. [51:30.710 --> 51:33.830] Occasionally, you'll see me on Slashdot as New York Country Lawyer. [51:34.230 --> 51:36.490] And we can comment there as well. [51:36.630 --> 51:37.930] I was interviewed on... [51:37.930 --> 51:40.370] I had the honor of being interviewed on Slashdot. [51:40.730 --> 51:45.870] And I say honor advisedly because it can be quite a painful experience as well. [51:46.330 --> 51:52.290] But I come from a family where we love a good argument, so it was a lot of fun for me. [51:52.290 --> 51:54.090] And this was a lot of fun for me. [51:54.170 --> 51:56.790] And I was very honored to be in this company. [51:56.970 --> 51:57.610] And I thank you. [52:22.380 --> 52:24.120] RICO means prison time. [52:24.120 --> 52:24.900] And the person that would agree with me. [52:25.060 --> 52:25.380] Yeah. [52:27.060 --> 52:27.760] That's a slam dunk? [52:27.920 --> 52:28.780] You've got it, you've got it.