[00:02.020 --> 00:03.960] I can read my notes upside down. [00:04.240 --> 00:05.920] So, let's go from here. [00:07.500 --> 00:09.340] Okay, basic disclaimers. [00:09.780 --> 00:11.260] One, I'm not your attorney. [00:12.500 --> 00:18.780] I'm basing this on, you know, what I was trained, you know, go to law school, pass a couple of bar exams, practice for a while. [00:19.020 --> 00:23.280] But in case you hadn't noticed, we're in a new environment now. [00:25.200 --> 00:29.700] And one reminder is the law is whatever the appeals court says it is. [00:31.120 --> 00:40.580] So, trust nine people in black robes, which some may be bribed, or paid off, or compromised. [00:42.080 --> 00:42.680] Allegedly. [00:42.680 --> 00:42.800] Allegedly. [00:43.160 --> 00:46.500] So, I'm not going to try to talk you out of doing stuff. [00:46.500 --> 00:56.600] For those of you who may want to come into some kind of, to do some kind of protest, either in physical space or online. [00:56.920 --> 00:58.720] I'm not trying to talk you out of it. [00:58.840 --> 01:00.020] In fact, we need protest. [01:01.020 --> 01:08.000] I'm just going to tell you kind of what the rules are, so you know how far you can go, and assess your risk appropriately. [01:09.440 --> 01:10.940] So, more disclaimers. [01:11.520 --> 01:12.880] I'm describing U.S. law for U.S. citizens. [01:15.360 --> 01:26.140] I am sad to say that I am not competent enough to talk about how it works for non-citizens, because, well, I don't think anyone can accurately describe it. [01:26.340 --> 01:31.040] Because, you know, from what I've heard about people, non-U.S. [01:31.320 --> 01:39.140] citizens coming into the United States, and dealing with a Customs and Border Patrol employee who just decides, yeah, why are we doing this? [01:39.240 --> 01:40.800] Because, fuck you, that's why. [01:42.400 --> 01:44.700] So, it's fuzzy for non-citizens. [01:45.040 --> 02:01.360] And why that annoys me is, if you've ever worked in, like, an industrial plant, or around industrial robots, or in where you repair heavy machinery, you'll see that there's tape on the floor, right? [02:02.440 --> 02:04.460] See, like, that's the CBP thing. [02:04.580 --> 02:05.200] Is that illegal? [02:05.520 --> 02:08.160] It should be, because it's goddamn terrifying. [02:08.900 --> 02:11.500] Because, like, I close my eyes, and I still see it. [02:14.480 --> 02:20.500] So, but that meme, getting you banned from the United States, and to be true, that didn't. [02:21.380 --> 02:27.660] The problem is, is that if you've ever dealt with an angry cop, it's not what you did. [02:27.660 --> 02:29.080] It's what they can find. [02:29.300 --> 02:36.880] So, they go through, they decide they don't like this guy, and they find, like, a weed possession charge from, like, ten years ago, and go, you're not allowed to be here. [02:38.260 --> 02:41.300] Because we don't allow felons in this country, right? [02:43.420 --> 02:45.340] So, basic fundamental idea of law. [02:45.460 --> 02:49.180] Law is the attempt to control, manage, and explain state violence, right? [02:49.180 --> 02:51.200] We grant the power to... [02:51.200 --> 02:55.080] Well, the state has the power to inflict violence upon us. [02:55.180 --> 02:56.600] We just want there to be safe... [02:56.600 --> 03:00.760] We want there to be clear enough rules about, when does the state come and kick my ass? [03:01.360 --> 03:01.840] Right? [03:02.120 --> 03:04.300] And going back to that industrial thing, right? [03:04.460 --> 03:09.320] That tape is there to tell you where you're safe, and where you should pay attention. [03:11.180 --> 03:13.780] You have those as very, very bright lines. [03:13.840 --> 03:16.280] You know where to step, and where not to step. [03:16.520 --> 03:18.240] The same should be about our laws. [03:18.240 --> 03:21.340] Am I breaking law should be absolutely clear. [03:21.700 --> 03:24.120] Especially when we're talking about punitive law, right? [03:24.360 --> 03:26.480] You might get fined, it can be a little fuzzier. [03:26.560 --> 03:28.340] You might get sued, let it be fuzzier. [03:28.540 --> 03:35.000] But, if I'm gonna go to jail, I want that to be a very clear line, so I know which side of the line I'm on. [03:35.300 --> 03:40.660] And if we make it fuzzy, it means that you don't know where you're safe. [03:40.660 --> 03:43.460] It makes you... it changes your behavior. [03:43.800 --> 03:48.740] Because if you're afraid that you'll get arrested at any point, you will be a lot quieter. [03:49.180 --> 03:51.160] You'll be a lot more cautious. [03:52.680 --> 03:54.480] And I think that's what they want. [03:54.900 --> 03:57.540] So, a few magic words to start. [03:58.360 --> 04:00.020] Am I free to go? [04:00.460 --> 04:10.080] If you are talking to a police officer, and you've decided that you would like to not talk to them, and you would like to be about your business, that is one of the magic words. [04:11.200 --> 04:14.220] Or, the color... the flip of that is, am I being detained? [04:14.540 --> 04:18.380] So, if you've decided I am done talking to you, may I go? [04:18.720 --> 04:20.180] Can I... can I... can I leave? [04:20.800 --> 04:21.940] Am I being detained? [04:23.360 --> 04:25.320] I don't consent to any searches. [04:26.820 --> 04:31.680] And this is one of those tricks they'll play with you, which is, it's okay for me to look in your bag, right? [04:32.360 --> 04:33.620] Kind of a leading question. [04:33.760 --> 04:36.920] And we're kind of trained to be polite and sure. [04:37.140 --> 04:38.600] Like, nope, and make it clear. [04:38.800 --> 04:41.000] Not, no, you... no, I don't want you to. [04:41.240 --> 04:43.160] No, I don't want you to search is not no. [04:43.760 --> 04:45.020] I do not consent. [04:45.180 --> 04:46.780] Say that into the body cam. [04:48.020 --> 04:49.100] I want a lawyer. [04:49.300 --> 04:50.360] I'm not talking. [04:51.080 --> 04:51.480] Right? [04:51.480 --> 04:54.000] Not, I think I need one. [04:54.240 --> 04:55.120] Do I need one? [04:55.200 --> 04:55.400] No. [04:55.680 --> 04:57.820] Be clear and unequivocal. [04:58.460 --> 05:00.640] And the final one is that. [05:00.820 --> 05:02.300] Which is, nothing. [05:02.680 --> 05:03.600] Don't talk. [05:04.640 --> 05:09.560] Are the... you know, the one that we've all heard is, and repeat after me, shut the fuck up. [05:10.540 --> 05:11.100] Okay. [05:13.100 --> 05:14.220] So, protest. [05:14.420 --> 05:16.740] I'm gonna split this out in person, online. [05:17.120 --> 05:20.600] So, and from less troublesome to more troublesome. [05:21.420 --> 05:23.480] A picket or a march, right? [05:23.880 --> 05:29.040] You're outside, holding signs, making noise, walking in a direction. [05:29.760 --> 05:33.600] A sit-in, which is a little bit more confrontational. [05:34.280 --> 05:37.000] You are controlling space that ain't yours. [05:37.900 --> 05:39.840] And then, direct action. [05:40.020 --> 05:42.300] Not am I controlling space that is not mine. [05:42.440 --> 05:45.820] I am doing something loud, obnoxious. [05:45.960 --> 05:51.560] I am not only just occupying space, I am preventing other people from enjoying that space. [05:51.880 --> 05:56.260] And then, I will put an asterisk for more disruptive things. [05:57.200 --> 05:58.100] Property damage. [05:59.820 --> 06:03.660] I'm not advocating it, just saying, like, that's the final category here, right? [06:04.080 --> 06:07.120] You have decided to escalate to level four. [06:08.620 --> 06:09.100] Online. [06:09.600 --> 06:10.080] Facilitation. [06:10.300 --> 06:17.340] And I'm gonna use this as, you're not protesting, but you are somehow offering a service to those who are. [06:17.340 --> 06:22.740] And this can be anything as simple as, you own a web hosting company. [06:22.860 --> 06:24.560] You're like, sure, you wanna protest that thing? [06:24.700 --> 06:24.840] There. [06:25.040 --> 06:25.740] There's a login. [06:25.860 --> 06:27.020] Go put up a page, right? [06:27.080 --> 06:28.660] You're facilitating that protest. [06:29.160 --> 06:32.160] Even if you're not participating in it, you are making it happen. [06:32.540 --> 06:37.340] If you're, you know, Moxie and you write Signal, well, you've facilitated protest. [06:39.500 --> 06:40.220] Posting, right? [06:40.400 --> 06:43.460] I'm gonna post some shit online that shows my, you know... [06:43.460 --> 06:47.800] That's a little bit more confrontational, because you are showing your own, you know, your own opinion. [06:47.900 --> 06:49.000] You're not just making it available. [06:49.180 --> 06:51.820] You are saying, I am putting this out there. [06:51.940 --> 06:53.780] And then, doxing? [06:54.060 --> 06:55.940] A little bit even more confrontational. [06:56.080 --> 06:57.000] A little bit more aggressive. [06:57.220 --> 07:00.300] And then, more disruptive actions. [07:02.600 --> 07:03.800] You know what they are. [07:04.660 --> 07:07.140] So, let's talk about picketing and marching, right? [07:07.380 --> 07:08.120] The simplest. [07:08.820 --> 07:10.700] You're walking and standing in public. [07:10.920 --> 07:12.060] Maybe making noise. [07:12.060 --> 07:13.700] Maybe carrying signs. [07:14.440 --> 07:18.780] Maybe you're even trying to, like, one-up your neighbor for, like, how cute can I make my sign? [07:19.980 --> 07:24.280] And there's a part of me that thinks that's kind of juvenile, except that that's what gets virality, right? [07:24.400 --> 07:26.620] You have a cute saying on your sign. [07:27.460 --> 07:29.060] Hey, that's gonna go viral. [07:29.240 --> 07:30.400] That's gonna show up at all... [07:30.400 --> 07:32.280] You know, your mom's gonna see it. [07:33.420 --> 07:34.960] And maybe she'll go, like, yeah. [07:35.140 --> 07:37.440] Or, if she's really cool, she's with you at the protest. [07:38.440 --> 07:40.040] Unfortunately, mine's a Trumpy, so no. [07:41.800 --> 07:44.180] So, how can the state regulate that? [07:44.580 --> 07:46.260] And it's time, place, manner. [07:46.780 --> 07:51.620] As in, they can, as long as it's content neutral, the state... [07:51.620 --> 07:52.920] And by the state, I mean the government. [07:53.080 --> 07:57.740] So, that could be your city, your county, to the federal government, right? [07:57.740 --> 08:01.860] So, no marches, more than 50 people after 8pm. [08:01.860 --> 08:04.520] It should not matter what you're marching about. [08:04.520 --> 08:09.740] If it's a church rally, or a pro-democracy, or... [08:09.740 --> 08:10.740] Yay, our sports team. [08:11.180 --> 08:14.000] Doesn't... you know, if it bans, it has to ban across the board. [08:14.540 --> 08:19.200] And it has to have a significant government interest for the regulation, right? [08:19.200 --> 08:21.540] Like, hey, it's public safety. [08:21.700 --> 08:25.000] Hey, it's a nuisance to have a large march after 10pm. [08:27.860 --> 08:30.800] So, that's what the state can do to prevent this. [08:31.740 --> 08:34.700] Go a little bit more aggressive to a sit-in or direct action. [08:34.700 --> 08:38.460] So, you are occupying space that isn't yours, right? [08:38.660 --> 08:47.260] The lobby of a bank, a plaza at the city hall, not leaving when ordered, right? [08:47.320 --> 08:55.280] You're allowed to be in that bank, that bank lobby, or in the plaza outside of city hall, or in a public park. [08:55.480 --> 09:00.680] But, when the cops have shown up and said, you have to leave, now you're committing trespass. [09:01.760 --> 09:05.100] So, they may now remove you. [09:05.260 --> 09:08.100] They may now arrest you for not following that order. [09:09.100 --> 09:10.300] So, trespass. [09:10.500 --> 09:13.420] Remaining in a private area after being commanded to leave. [09:14.080 --> 09:17.540] In most jurisdictions, it's a misdemeanor at top. [09:17.920 --> 09:23.460] So, that's fines and up to 364 days in jail if you've really, really annoyed everybody. [09:23.460 --> 09:24.700] That's pretty rare. [09:24.920 --> 09:29.080] But, that's like the power the state can to make you stop. [09:31.000 --> 09:33.380] Now, here's where it's going to get a little fuzzy. [09:33.500 --> 09:39.200] Because, let's talk about the space between the lawful expression and a criminal act. [09:39.680 --> 09:41.820] See, you're holding up your sign. [09:41.940 --> 09:43.360] You're banging at pots and pans. [09:43.420 --> 09:46.300] You're saying things about what you're unhappy about. [09:46.800 --> 09:52.540] And the cops have decided that we would, instead of just asking you to leave, we would like to arrest a few of you. [09:53.340 --> 09:56.760] Now, the occupying the space is not the crime. [09:56.960 --> 09:58.760] But they can make a crime happen. [10:00.300 --> 10:01.900] Such as, kettling. [10:02.240 --> 10:03.600] You all have to leave. [10:04.040 --> 10:05.180] But you can't. [10:05.420 --> 10:05.860] Right? [10:06.040 --> 10:07.880] Because they've bounded off the spaces. [10:07.900 --> 10:12.220] Like, I would like to go home, but you have barricades everywhere I would go. [10:12.220 --> 10:18.480] So, I would like, you know, you have asked me to leave, but you have prevented me from doing so. [10:18.700 --> 10:20.740] It's a big thing in New York. [10:21.040 --> 10:21.920] It happened elsewhere. [10:22.120 --> 10:26.120] But most of the big cases, like Brooklyn Bridge, where they did this. [10:27.860 --> 10:38.180] Another trick for smaller ones, I'm seeing a lot of these for people protesting ICE actions, where they are getting fairly aggressive to the ICE people. [10:38.340 --> 10:41.540] I'm not going to call them agents, because they're, you know, not really well trained. [10:41.740 --> 10:42.340] There's goons. [10:43.020 --> 10:45.120] I'm sorry, I apologize to goons. [10:45.520 --> 10:46.320] They're thugs. [10:48.560 --> 10:51.520] I mean, some of you proudly call yourselves goons, right? [10:51.520 --> 10:59.120] Because you wear a red shirt, and you yell things like, make a hole, and, you know, sir, you're making a scene at other conferences. [10:59.860 --> 11:10.380] But a trick I've seen is, if you're following them, and they've decided that they would like to get more aggressive, they will stop suddenly or move back. [11:10.680 --> 11:12.800] So, you following them go, oops. [11:13.060 --> 11:16.920] It's like getting brake checked by a guy with an AR-15 and a mask. [11:17.720 --> 11:25.220] And, essentially, they have tricked you into committing the crime of assault, because you have touched that cop, or that thug. [11:26.980 --> 11:32.980] So, law enforcement is trained to find other violations, right? [11:33.300 --> 11:36.680] A common one would be, you go to a protest. [11:37.040 --> 11:37.860] Say you're a suburbanite. [11:37.940 --> 11:41.620] Say you drive to the protest, and you go in your protest, and you go back to your car. [11:42.660 --> 11:45.140] The cop will then drive following you. [11:45.340 --> 11:51.540] And you will do something that they can construe as a traffic violation, right? [11:51.760 --> 11:58.600] And then, at that point, as a part of their regular duties, they can find some other violation. [11:59.500 --> 12:02.160] I think your car doesn't meet the vehicle code. [12:03.180 --> 12:05.840] I think that that windshield is too dirty. [12:05.840 --> 12:08.720] I saw a puff of smoke. [12:08.720 --> 12:10.520] I believe it will fail inspection. [12:12.760 --> 12:14.940] I believe that exhaust is too loud. [12:15.100 --> 12:20.720] And, all of a sudden, you've gone from, I was protesting, to, all of a sudden, I'm waiting for a tow truck. [12:21.380 --> 12:26.480] Or, and by the time they've seized it, you've now suffered something. [12:26.640 --> 12:28.900] You haven't been arrested, but you have suffered some inconvenience. [12:29.800 --> 12:33.420] The state has paid more attention to you than you would like. [12:34.400 --> 12:37.780] So, and it's what I think of as using the regulatory state. [12:38.220 --> 12:40.560] They have found something else to find you. [12:41.080 --> 12:46.100] Maybe they've smelled, they've described, they've decided that, I think you're publicly drunk. [12:46.100 --> 12:48.300] Because I am smelling alcohol. [12:48.820 --> 12:53.300] I am smelling weed in the few remaining states where it's still illegal. [12:55.480 --> 13:00.060] And it's a way of basically bootstrapping nothing to a crime. [13:01.500 --> 13:05.700] So, once you've been arrested, here's where it gets, it escalates. [13:05.900 --> 13:11.300] Because there is, they can search you, incident to arrest. [13:11.540 --> 13:11.900] Right? [13:12.160 --> 13:16.520] You have been arrested for something that is regulatory, you know, relatively spurious. [13:16.720 --> 13:19.340] But I have the right as the cop to arrest you. [13:19.520 --> 13:21.060] Now I get to search you. [13:21.500 --> 13:23.260] Maybe you have contraband. [13:23.260 --> 13:25.500] Maybe you have something that is evidence. [13:26.080 --> 13:31.260] And the example I give is one of the January 6th... [13:32.080 --> 13:34.040] Are we still allowed to call them rioters? [13:34.140 --> 13:36.100] Or are they just great American heroes now? [13:37.160 --> 13:38.540] Sorry, that's my cynicism. [13:39.000 --> 13:42.640] Who, when they arrested him, they, of course, took his devices. [13:42.680 --> 13:44.980] And they found child pornography. [13:46.780 --> 13:50.430] That had nothing to do with his initial arrest, but that's contraband. [13:50.430 --> 13:52.090] You're not allowed to have that. [13:52.390 --> 13:54.590] So, they get to charge them with that. [13:56.770 --> 13:59.850] So, they get to search the inventory of whatever you're... [13:59.850 --> 14:02.570] You know, if you're in a vehicle, they get to search the vehicle. [14:02.750 --> 14:03.850] They get to search you. [14:04.610 --> 14:06.890] If you've got devices, they get to seize them. [14:07.010 --> 14:14.370] And in some jurisdictions, they would have to have an additional warrant, but that requires probable cause, which I'm sure they can come up with something. [14:15.290 --> 14:24.390] So, all of a sudden, we've escalated a protest violation of, you know, at most a misdemeanor or a fine. [14:24.590 --> 14:27.590] Most, you know, most cities will be like, here's your ticket. [14:28.050 --> 14:31.770] You, you know, pay it in 30 days or it will double. [14:32.070 --> 14:35.810] But now, if they've laid hands on you, like, wait, we can take some of your stuff. [14:36.150 --> 14:38.830] Maybe there's evidence of more stuff we're interested in. [14:40.710 --> 14:43.450] The other thing they're going to try to do is make you talk. [14:43.870 --> 14:51.030] And not in the sense of, like, they're going to beat you, but they'll do something like, tell me what you're up to. [14:51.830 --> 14:56.310] And in your speaking, you're going to confess some things, like, I was here to protest. [14:56.530 --> 14:57.550] Who were you with? [14:57.790 --> 14:59.290] Oh, you were with that organization. [14:59.670 --> 15:00.070] Great. [15:00.490 --> 15:04.970] That can now be used to bootstrap probable cause against that organization, if they so decide. [15:05.190 --> 15:07.670] It allows them to kind of worm their way in. [15:09.030 --> 15:11.150] And what I like to think of is little deals. [15:11.770 --> 15:14.050] We'll let you go if you tell me who else is a member. [15:14.690 --> 15:18.910] We'll let you go if you tell me what you all were doing last week. [15:19.410 --> 15:22.410] We'll let you go if you tell me where you meet. [15:23.050 --> 15:23.490] Right? [15:23.850 --> 15:29.190] So we've gone from a little thing to all of a sudden they can pay more attention. [15:29.370 --> 15:33.490] The eye of Sauron is on you and your associates a little bit more. [15:34.470 --> 15:36.090] So, a little guidance here. [15:37.090 --> 15:38.770] Let's talk risk mitigation, right? [15:38.910 --> 15:41.010] I cannot tell you how to be perfectly safe. [15:41.150 --> 15:44.530] I can tell you to figure out what to do to reduce your risk. [15:45.770 --> 15:58.050] If you're going to go to a protest and you think that there's the possibility that it is going to get more law enforcement attention than you might expect, let other people know. [15:58.230 --> 15:58.830] Tell your family. [15:58.930 --> 15:59.850] Tell some people you trust. [15:59.970 --> 16:01.210] I'm going to go to this protest. [16:01.410 --> 16:04.210] I should be back by 6 PM. [16:04.590 --> 16:08.610] And I'll send you a message saying, I'm home. [16:09.030 --> 16:13.730] If not, so that way they know to possibly call. [16:14.810 --> 16:19.110] In Philadelphia, there's a couple of legal collectives that will do things like you call them and they... [16:19.110 --> 16:23.310] Because they're on the phones with the arraignment court to go, oh yeah. [16:24.030 --> 16:25.030] Your friend Bob? [16:25.430 --> 16:25.590] Yep. [16:26.210 --> 16:26.610] He... [16:27.510 --> 16:28.870] You know, he's waiting for bail. [16:29.050 --> 16:30.070] He's waiting for his bail hearing. [16:30.070 --> 16:32.050] So you know that they're in the system somewhere. [16:34.550 --> 16:37.150] Don't bring items that put yourself or others at risk. [16:38.070 --> 16:41.050] If you're going to go to a protest, don't bring weapons. [16:42.930 --> 16:43.330] That's... [16:43.330 --> 16:52.910] I mean, I get there will probably be some more Second Amendment absolutes here who will go to protests with AR-15s, but recognize that that can get spicy. [16:53.150 --> 16:57.310] But if you have other things that will put yourself or others at risk, like... [16:59.270 --> 16:59.550] Contraband? [17:00.730 --> 17:00.990] Contraband? [17:01.590 --> 17:02.150] Like... [17:03.390 --> 17:05.650] A list of information about your co... [17:05.650 --> 17:08.010] You know, your future co-conspirators. [17:08.370 --> 17:08.550] Don't. [17:08.690 --> 17:11.150] Like pat yourself down before they have to. [17:12.570 --> 17:15.070] So you know whatever you... [17:15.070 --> 17:18.310] Whatever you have on you cannot be used against you or other people. [17:19.090 --> 17:19.330] Right? [17:20.990 --> 17:23.050] Minimize the evidence as you can. [17:23.650 --> 17:24.150] Right? [17:24.150 --> 17:24.170] Right? [17:24.770 --> 17:26.490] If you have a device... [17:26.490 --> 17:27.010] If... [17:27.010 --> 17:29.530] For the hardcore people, bring your burner phone. [17:29.850 --> 17:32.430] That is only the numbers you need for that day. [17:32.930 --> 17:33.290] Right? [17:33.390 --> 17:37.290] Because your regular phone has a lot more information about you. [17:39.190 --> 17:42.130] Now let's talk about collecting evidence from their perspective. [17:42.510 --> 17:43.750] From your perspective. [17:44.070 --> 17:45.290] Record what happens. [17:45.850 --> 17:45.950] Right? [17:46.670 --> 17:47.970] If you're... [17:47.970 --> 17:54.990] If you've taken a position in a protest where you are not doing the direct action, but you're going to be kind of auxiliary to that. [17:55.130 --> 17:57.310] Acting as like a quasi-legal observer. [17:58.630 --> 17:58.990] Film... [17:58.990 --> 17:59.410] Or sorry. [17:59.550 --> 18:00.130] Record things. [18:00.270 --> 18:01.370] I'm old enough I call it film. [18:01.530 --> 18:01.710] But... [18:02.210 --> 18:03.070] Bust out your phone. [18:03.250 --> 18:04.070] Bust out your burner phone. [18:04.630 --> 18:05.590] Document what happens. [18:06.170 --> 18:06.530] Document... [18:08.250 --> 18:12.110] Confrontations between your people and counter protestors. [18:12.270 --> 18:18.170] Document what happens between your people and law enforcement. [18:19.210 --> 18:19.830] And... [18:20.550 --> 18:23.470] Here's an analysis you might want to take when you do this. [18:23.710 --> 18:24.110] Is... [18:24.110 --> 18:25.170] Do it in a safe manner. [18:26.150 --> 18:28.390] Stay away from any arrests. [18:28.690 --> 18:29.150] Like... [18:29.150 --> 18:30.610] 15, 20 feet. [18:30.890 --> 18:31.790] You don't want to... [18:31.790 --> 18:33.270] You're allowed to record police. [18:33.430 --> 18:35.890] But you're not allowed to interfere in the arrest. [18:36.830 --> 18:37.310] So... [18:37.310 --> 18:41.230] Stay as close as you can without being within their wingspan. [18:41.690 --> 18:42.450] Now the... [18:42.450 --> 18:45.010] I've seen where the police will get a bit more aggressive. [18:45.550 --> 18:46.670] Record that anyway. [18:49.130 --> 18:50.750] But back off as you're doing it. [18:50.830 --> 18:53.370] So that way there's no way they can construe that as a threat. [18:55.250 --> 18:56.410] Consider its use. [18:56.590 --> 18:56.690] Right? [18:56.790 --> 19:06.890] If you have footage of something that happens, but it's also showing people on your side doing criminal stuff, pocket that. [19:07.950 --> 19:08.470] Because... [19:08.470 --> 19:11.170] Or at least review it before uploading it. [19:11.250 --> 19:12.970] Because you want to realize like, wait a minute. [19:13.050 --> 19:22.550] This is proof of both the police being brutal, but also, you know, one of your compatriots throwing a punch. [19:22.950 --> 19:23.850] So be careful. [19:24.030 --> 19:25.670] You know, think about that before you post it. [19:26.190 --> 19:26.710] And... [19:26.710 --> 19:29.510] Actually, I'm going to go back one for this consideration. [19:30.930 --> 19:32.210] You may have... [19:32.210 --> 19:34.290] You may decide like, I'm going to put this up immediately. [19:35.090 --> 19:40.570] If there are arrests, hold on to that and instead contact their attorneys. [19:40.810 --> 19:42.290] Because there is a... [19:43.030 --> 19:55.150] I'll say there's a trend when, if there's a large event like this, the police will review all the available footage and then kind of tell their story from the perspective of that footage. [19:55.510 --> 19:55.990] Right? [19:56.730 --> 19:59.190] Because they want to tell the best story for them. [20:00.070 --> 20:09.750] And if you have something that contradicts them, and you publish it immediately, they will tell the story that includes that new piece of evidence. [20:09.890 --> 20:19.770] If you wait and have them make their statement, and then you can show definitely contradictory evidence, that is helpful for the defense of those people. [20:21.070 --> 20:22.030] So it's... [20:22.030 --> 20:30.930] If you get it, find out who's representing them, or if it's a public defender, or a legal collector, for whatever, and go like, I've got footage that contradicts the cop's story. [20:32.070 --> 20:33.990] Let's talk about what we do with that. [20:34.750 --> 20:37.690] Because it may be helpful for those people in defense. [20:40.310 --> 20:42.670] And I did this because they're used... [20:42.670 --> 20:47.010] ACLU used to have an app for recording police that was really easy to use. [20:47.150 --> 20:49.730] And it dumped to cloud storage that they controlled. [20:49.730 --> 20:51.430] So if they were... [20:51.430 --> 20:56.150] If you were subpoenaed, the ACLU could go and say, we have attorney-client privilege. [20:56.210 --> 20:59.050] You don't get to see it until we decide to use it. [20:59.750 --> 21:01.950] They have withdrawn that from the market. [21:01.990 --> 21:04.830] And I can't find another one I would recommend. [21:04.830 --> 21:07.670] So perhaps the EFF may make some recommendations. [21:07.670 --> 21:08.950] Perhaps someone else. [21:09.070 --> 21:10.310] I'm not going to say anything. [21:10.570 --> 21:18.730] But I saw a good article on how to do, like a script on your phone, called Serium Getting Pulled Over. [21:18.990 --> 21:23.390] So it will automatically lock your phone and turn recording on. [21:23.990 --> 21:27.810] So that way, if you are surprised with... [21:27.810 --> 21:33.450] Shall we say, you know, you have the surprise law enforcement encounter, you've got a little snitch in your pocket. [21:34.030 --> 21:35.230] And it's locked. [21:35.330 --> 21:44.010] So you have to unlock it to show them it's a nice piece of evidence for you to collect evidence that is not under control of law enforcement immediately. [21:45.390 --> 21:47.550] So let's go switch to online. [21:47.750 --> 21:52.430] Because this is both more interesting and more problematic. [21:52.790 --> 22:01.130] Because federal laws on computer crime are a lot more draconian than what we have in, like, physical space. [22:01.130 --> 22:03.290] So let's start with facilitation. [22:03.590 --> 22:06.030] You are offering some capability to protestors. [22:06.210 --> 22:16.770] That can be anything as simple as, like, web hosting, or file storage, to offering communications, to even being the webmaster of a protest group, right? [22:16.930 --> 22:20.170] Or running their Facebook or social media or whatever. [22:20.350 --> 22:27.130] You are somehow, while you're not at the protest, you're not doing that, you are facilitating other people getting their message out. [22:29.530 --> 22:33.230] So you're providing a service used by the targets of that law enforcement. [22:33.610 --> 22:35.550] That puts you at a little bit of risk. [22:35.810 --> 22:42.890] Mostly for more neutral things like a subpoena or a warrant to seize the data you have. [22:42.890 --> 22:51.830] But if the prosecution is really, really, really sticky, they may decide to try to call you a member of that group. [22:52.170 --> 22:53.890] But we'll talk about that in a bit. [22:54.190 --> 22:55.370] That's, like, the basic one. [22:55.470 --> 22:56.510] So, like, cloud provider. [22:56.710 --> 22:58.210] You're a payment provider. [22:58.610 --> 23:03.270] You know, you're GoFundMe for, you know, the people who got arrested. [23:03.270 --> 23:05.810] All of a sudden, you're now kind of on their target. [23:05.930 --> 23:07.330] You're on their target list. [23:08.250 --> 23:09.610] You're offering communications. [23:09.890 --> 23:10.670] Say, like, signal. [23:12.110 --> 23:13.790] So, go to doxing. [23:13.970 --> 23:14.870] And that's a two part. [23:15.050 --> 23:16.030] It requires two parts. [23:16.210 --> 23:22.130] One is the obtaining of the personally identifying information of the people you would like to drop dox on. [23:22.250 --> 23:24.470] And the second half is the distribution of that. [23:24.710 --> 23:30.170] So the first half is, let's figure out what your rights are to that data. [23:30.470 --> 23:32.050] So there are three categories. [23:32.290 --> 23:33.870] You can be authorized to have it. [23:34.010 --> 23:39.510] So you say, for example, you work for the DMV. [23:39.510 --> 23:41.150] Actually, that's a bad example. [23:41.310 --> 23:45.510] You work for a company that holds information about police officers. [23:45.630 --> 23:46.770] Maybe you're a mortgage company. [23:47.830 --> 23:54.350] You, as a person working there, are lawfully allowed to look at that data for the furtherance of your job, right? [23:54.490 --> 23:58.270] You, you know, say you're like a loan underwriter. [23:58.270 --> 24:01.790] You get to look at that data because you have to figure out if we're going to loan these people money. [24:02.850 --> 24:08.390] But, under Computer Fraud and Abuse Act, you are also allowed, you are allowed to use, you're allowed to look at that. [24:09.270 --> 24:13.270] Even if you're doing it for something other than what is your job description. [24:14.710 --> 24:17.550] So, that's allowed but outside the scope, right? [24:17.710 --> 24:23.750] You're allowed to look at Officer Friendly's mortgage data because you're a loan officer. [24:24.090 --> 24:29.830] If you grab that and decide to distribute it, you're not breaking Computer Fraud and Abuse Act. [24:29.950 --> 24:34.050] You may be breaking something else, and we'll talk about that in a sec, but you are allowed to see it. [24:34.050 --> 24:36.490] And then the worst is completely unauthorized. [24:37.050 --> 24:38.770] You are not the loan officer. [24:39.030 --> 24:40.970] You just have their login creds. [24:41.670 --> 24:47.370] And you've decided to go find every, you know, let me find everybody's officer in my, in my jurisdiction. [24:47.390 --> 24:53.150] So, I have their home addresses and how much they owe and their late payments and whatnot. [24:54.070 --> 24:57.410] I don't know how valuable that is, but maybe you want to embarrass them. [24:59.010 --> 25:07.770] So, second half of that doxing is now that you have the data and you release it, what's your intent and what's the data? [25:07.930 --> 25:09.130] Is it otherwise protected? [25:09.350 --> 25:11.690] And what is your intent in releasing it? [25:11.890 --> 25:16.330] Now, generally, doxing, you're doing that to harass them. [25:16.430 --> 25:19.190] You are doing that to make their lives worse, right? [25:19.410 --> 25:36.970] If you drop sensitive data about someone that you think is a bad person, you know, say it's a police officer who's, who you believe has acted in a brutal and callous manner to, to people you care about, and you drop something as simple as the names of their children, [25:37.170 --> 25:39.850] what schools they go to, and their schedule, right? [25:41.850 --> 25:45.170] Arguably, you didn't drop that because you like children. [25:46.210 --> 25:47.510] Actually, that's the wrong answer. [25:47.610 --> 25:47.770] Sorry. [25:47.990 --> 25:50.530] You didn't do that because it's a journalistic thing. [25:50.670 --> 25:53.470] You are doing that because you want their children to be harassed. [25:53.490 --> 25:55.770] You want to use that as a tool to harass that officer. [25:55.770 --> 26:04.530] So you've gone from just dropping dox to actually like committing a crime because you have now set them up for harassment. [26:05.890 --> 26:18.110] Now, you could argue, if you argue instead that it's freedom of the press, the justification has, you have to be able to point to what justification is that this is of journalistic integrity or journalistic importance. [26:18.850 --> 26:24.150] The back to the kids thing, it's going to be hard unless there's some other reason. [26:24.290 --> 26:25.910] And I'm not really sure what that could be. [26:26.250 --> 26:32.510] Maybe, you know, maybe they're going to a school outside of their district, and it's a better school and like they're committing fraud. [26:33.670 --> 26:36.270] So let's talk about obtaining that data. [26:36.550 --> 26:39.410] So I mentioned the Computer Fraud and Abuse Act. [26:39.410 --> 26:44.990] This is unlawfully obtaining information without authorization. [26:45.690 --> 26:46.030] Right? [26:46.190 --> 26:54.410] You are not permitted to access, say, the internal law enforcement disciplinary documentation. [26:54.610 --> 26:55.370] Right? [26:55.430 --> 26:56.530] That's supposed to be secret. [26:56.610 --> 26:57.510] And you've grabbed it. [26:57.730 --> 27:00.170] Well, you've broken into those systems. [27:00.350 --> 27:03.810] That's itself a federal crime. [27:05.710 --> 27:08.870] Exceeding authorized, granted, or exceeding granted authorization. [27:09.270 --> 27:11.630] So if you do a privilege escalation, right? [27:11.770 --> 27:16.750] You are allowed to see your own data in this database, but instead you get everyone's. [27:17.010 --> 27:18.950] You are now in violation of that. [27:21.270 --> 27:24.950] So now this is for a privilege escalation, a policy violation. [27:25.230 --> 27:33.790] Say, for example, you already have that data, but you aren't allowed under like, you know, your employee handbook to look at other people's stuff. [27:33.970 --> 27:39.390] While that may be a fireable offense, it will not open you to liability, at least under federal law. [27:41.190 --> 27:41.710] HIPAA. [27:41.890 --> 27:48.190] Say, for example, you work at a hospital and you decide to drop docs on every officer who gets treatment there. [27:48.650 --> 27:50.470] Yep, you've violated HIPAA. [27:51.310 --> 27:55.470] And since that's a voluntary disclosure, it can actually be criminal. [27:56.830 --> 28:00.830] So it's... the access itself is a violation. [28:01.090 --> 28:03.950] And then when we talk about publication, we've just doubled down. [28:05.610 --> 28:06.910] So obtaining. [28:07.550 --> 28:09.770] Let's talk about two other technical matters. [28:10.370 --> 28:10.710] Wiretap. [28:11.130 --> 28:25.370] If I am... either do an old fashioned audio bug, or I put malware in some devices to be able to listen in to either oral or digital communications, I've violated the Wiretap Act. [28:25.470 --> 28:32.250] If I've put a network sniffer, and I've somehow also decrypted the communication, and I'm grabbing it while it's at the same... [28:32.250 --> 28:34.970] while it's being transmitted, federal crime. [28:37.650 --> 28:43.790] If I'm grabbing stored email, or stored documentation, I've violated the Storage Communications Act. [28:46.850 --> 28:53.750] So, you know, dropping docs can be dangerous if you're actually violating the law to get it. [28:54.830 --> 28:57.430] So obtaining... that's... you know, I've been able... [28:57.430 --> 29:07.050] I break into your Gmail account or the officer's Gmail account to go see stuff, even though it's after they received it, it's a violation of the Store Communications Act. [29:07.050 --> 29:09.930] So, now let's go to, like, dropping the docs. [29:10.090 --> 29:11.730] You've obtained them, now dropping them. [29:12.450 --> 29:13.190] 18 U.S.C. [29:13.270 --> 29:16.830] 119 is actually the... the... a dropping docs act. [29:17.010 --> 29:32.730] It's... if I divulge certain personally identifying information, like address, phone number, personal email, social security number, to threaten or intimidate a government employee, and someone assisting them. [29:32.850 --> 29:39.130] So a civilian assisting law enforcement, you drop docs on them to harass them, isn't self... it's itself a crime. [29:39.130 --> 29:46.610] If you drop docs to intimidate or harass a witness, or a jury member, it's a crime. [29:48.210 --> 29:51.510] As long as it's within the performance of their duties. [29:52.890 --> 29:56.190] So, let's talk about, like, more disruptive activities. [29:56.450 --> 29:57.270] Actual damage. [29:57.270 --> 29:59.050] So, destruction of property. [29:59.290 --> 30:06.450] I want to... instead of just protesting outside the bank, or outside the courthouse, I would like to smash its windows. [30:07.690 --> 30:10.110] Or, disrupting critical infrastructure. [30:11.390 --> 30:14.550] We've now... these aren't protected by the First Amendment. [30:14.730 --> 30:15.870] They're actually crimes. [30:16.910 --> 30:18.610] Now, talk about online. [30:19.590 --> 30:23.110] What if we disrupt critical infrastructure to protest? [30:23.110 --> 30:27.670] What if we knock 9-1-1 offline in a county? [30:28.150 --> 30:31.130] Well, we have this. [30:32.590 --> 30:34.950] 18 U.S.C. 2331, which is terrorism. [30:36.430 --> 30:40.730] It's... involve acts dangerous to human life that are a violation of the criminal laws of the U.S. or of any state. [30:41.630 --> 30:46.370] And it's intended to intimidate or coerce a civilian population. [30:47.050 --> 30:51.110] To influence policy by intimidation or coercion. [30:51.310 --> 30:55.670] Or, to affect the conduct of a government by mass destruction, assassination, or kidnapping. [30:56.610 --> 31:00.990] So, at a certain point, it's not too difficult to get there, right? [31:00.990 --> 31:02.390] Knock out 9-1-1. [31:06.090 --> 31:08.350] Shoot at a transformer station. [31:11.010 --> 31:13.410] Take a... you know... [31:13.410 --> 31:14.430] I'm trying to think. [31:14.590 --> 31:17.570] Like, taking a backhoe to fiber probably wouldn't trip that. [31:17.670 --> 31:21.150] Because I'm not sure how far it goes to be dangerous to human life. [31:21.350 --> 31:28.690] But, using explosives, using a firearm, all of a sudden, we've now... we've now, you know, gotten to serious felonies. [31:33.150 --> 31:35.270] So, let's talk about your friends. [31:35.650 --> 31:36.090] Right? [31:36.470 --> 31:38.130] You decide... [31:38.130 --> 31:41.590] Say, for example, you're talking to people who would like to do these things. [31:43.310 --> 31:47.310] And, while you are like, hey, I know the feeling. [31:47.530 --> 31:48.570] I'm angry too. [31:49.570 --> 31:50.690] I... but... [31:51.590 --> 31:55.450] I'm not gonna step to, you know, burning down a police station. [31:56.890 --> 32:09.650] If you work in some furtherance of that act, even if you're not the one throwing the bomb or... or... or throwing the Molotov cocktail, you can still be liable if you act in some way in furtherance. [32:10.470 --> 32:22.770] Hey, you know, we're... we're going to... we're going to go bring weapons to this... to this protest, and if a cop arrests somebody, we'll... we'll... you know, we'll... we'll respond with physical force. [32:23.070 --> 32:26.010] Even if you're not there, but you have somehow facilitated it. [32:26.230 --> 32:29.330] Hey, would you like... I've got a bunch of wine bottles. [32:29.550 --> 32:31.610] You can go make Molotov cocktails with it. [32:31.710 --> 32:32.670] I'll drop them off. [32:34.090 --> 32:36.490] You are furthering that act. [32:36.490 --> 32:40.350] So in that way, you are now getting some liability. [32:41.190 --> 32:51.690] It's in self... depending on the statute, like bank fraud, for example, just conspiring to do it is... is a crime in and of itself, even if you don't actually succeed in doing so. [32:52.150 --> 32:54.130] Other ways, it's just a theory. [32:54.390 --> 32:55.490] As in... [32:56.790 --> 32:58.130] this crime did occur. [32:58.450 --> 33:00.550] The police station did get burned down. [33:01.010 --> 33:03.510] A police officer was assaulted. [33:03.510 --> 33:08.270] And you acted in some way in furtherance of it, in the knowledge that that was going to happen. [33:08.990 --> 33:11.950] If you've been lied to, and it's like, hey, um... [33:12.670 --> 33:14.990] I want to borrow your AR-15 to go hunting. [33:15.090 --> 33:17.190] And you don't ask, what are you hunting? [33:17.630 --> 33:19.790] But instead, just think, sure, you can borrow it. [33:19.970 --> 33:24.530] And it's used in a crime, and you had some inkling to know, like, you were probably, you know... [33:24.530 --> 33:27.310] Because when you ask, like, hey, do you have any of those Teflon-tipped bullets? [33:27.510 --> 33:30.130] Because the deer in my area tend to wear body armor. [33:31.590 --> 33:33.510] That's a shout out to my friend, Russ. [33:35.110 --> 33:35.570] Um... [33:35.570 --> 33:36.270] So... [33:36.270 --> 33:39.470] Now, all of a sudden, you're now kind of collected in that. [33:39.670 --> 33:41.390] You are as liable as they are. [33:44.330 --> 33:46.130] So, thinking now about evidence. [33:46.690 --> 33:49.730] Because some of this is, how do you control the evidence? [33:49.870 --> 33:54.590] Or how do you minimize the amount of evidence of anything that you may hypothetically do? [33:54.590 --> 34:03.150] So, when you do things, consider what gets said, what gets recorded, what gets logged, and shared. [34:03.550 --> 34:14.850] The number of people who I have talked to, who have done things like plan their criminal activities using chat, or using SMS, is too damn high. [34:16.470 --> 34:18.910] And think of that, that that's recorded. [34:19.110 --> 34:19.910] That's kept. [34:19.910 --> 34:23.470] That group text you're on is on everyone's devices. [34:24.310 --> 34:32.290] You know, I mean, watching Pete Hegseth, and I'm figuring out the guy, the guy who actually added the journalist to the, let's go bomb the Houthis. [34:33.310 --> 34:33.830] Um... [34:33.830 --> 34:36.290] Everyone involved in that has that recording. [34:36.590 --> 34:36.910] Every... [34:36.910 --> 34:40.230] All you have to do is grab one of those phones, and you get the whole communication. [34:40.630 --> 34:48.610] So, consider that when you're doing your direct actions, or your protests, that everyone involved gets to see it. [34:49.470 --> 34:54.030] All you need to get is one of those devices seized, and you've kind of rolled up the whole thing. [34:54.170 --> 34:55.290] You know all the players. [34:56.390 --> 34:56.790] Um... [34:56.790 --> 34:58.650] I'll use a quote from Ben Franklin. [34:59.010 --> 35:00.950] Three can keep a secret if two are dead. [35:01.410 --> 35:02.750] According to those Ben Franklin. [35:03.350 --> 35:04.650] Also, it's the Hells Angels. [35:06.390 --> 35:06.790] Um... [35:06.790 --> 35:08.190] So that's a consideration, right? [35:08.390 --> 35:10.050] Is... is think of what you do. [35:10.350 --> 35:11.510] Think of what you record. [35:11.810 --> 35:13.730] Think of what evidence you leave behind. [35:14.210 --> 35:18.530] Think of all the data that you're kind of sloughing off as you go through your life, right? [35:18.890 --> 35:20.970] Your phone is pinging your location. [35:21.370 --> 35:22.370] Your apps are... [35:22.370 --> 35:22.830] You know... [35:22.830 --> 35:24.450] You're... you're commenting on things. [35:24.770 --> 35:27.430] All that is evidence that can be used against you. [35:28.790 --> 35:29.310] So... [35:29.310 --> 35:29.970] Questions? [35:34.900 --> 35:36.300] Did I scare you all? [35:36.600 --> 35:36.860] Uh... [35:36.860 --> 35:37.840] Do we have... [35:37.840 --> 35:38.140] Yeah. [35:46.040 --> 35:48.840] I'm glad we got to see your slides. [35:49.360 --> 35:50.060] I'm sorry? [35:50.280 --> 35:51.880] I'm glad we got to see your slides. [35:52.860 --> 35:53.780] So am I. [35:53.980 --> 35:54.140] As... [35:54.140 --> 35:55.120] As plain as they are. [35:55.740 --> 35:59.120] I was thinking about the facilitation point that you made. [35:59.480 --> 36:01.180] I work on a helpline. [36:01.420 --> 36:04.040] And we provide mental health support. [36:04.460 --> 36:10.100] However, the people that come to us, we don't necessarily know where they come from. [36:10.200 --> 36:13.100] But we know that they have been hurt by government actions. [36:14.320 --> 36:14.680] Uh... [36:14.680 --> 36:16.740] Would that be construed as facilitation? [36:16.740 --> 36:17.860] Well, no. [36:18.020 --> 36:18.640] Cause you're... [36:18.640 --> 36:19.800] Are you... [36:19.800 --> 36:20.360] You know... [36:20.360 --> 36:22.020] Like say for example, I'm... [36:22.020 --> 36:22.820] Um... [36:22.820 --> 36:23.200] Undocumented. [36:23.420 --> 36:26.400] And I call you up cause I'm feeling very stressed. [36:26.640 --> 36:26.960] And... [36:26.960 --> 36:28.000] And you know... [36:28.000 --> 36:28.400] Need... [36:28.400 --> 36:28.700] Need... [36:28.700 --> 36:29.860] Need a crisis intervention. [36:31.500 --> 36:34.280] You talking to them is not facilitating anything. [36:34.840 --> 36:35.060] Right? [36:35.220 --> 36:35.720] You are... [36:35.720 --> 36:36.540] Now if you... [36:36.540 --> 36:37.020] If you... [36:37.020 --> 36:38.040] If you go from... [36:38.040 --> 36:39.360] From that to... [36:39.360 --> 36:40.040] You know... [36:40.040 --> 36:41.380] The opposite of that is... [36:41.380 --> 36:43.260] I'm feeling really, really angry. [36:44.020 --> 36:46.120] And I'm gonna go shoot somebody. [36:46.680 --> 36:48.140] And if your response is... [36:49.200 --> 36:50.640] Wow, you must be really angry. [36:50.760 --> 36:51.500] You don't wanna talk about it. [36:51.740 --> 36:52.260] You're fine. [36:52.620 --> 36:52.840] Uh-huh. [36:53.060 --> 36:56.420] I mean, maybe there's a Tarasoff thing in there about liab... [36:56.420 --> 36:57.100] Personal... [36:57.100 --> 36:58.160] You know, some kind of like... [36:58.160 --> 36:59.460] Legal liability. [36:59.960 --> 37:01.520] But you're not committing a criminal act. [37:01.720 --> 37:03.280] If you instead help them. [37:04.040 --> 37:04.480] Now... [37:04.480 --> 37:04.880] You know... [37:04.880 --> 37:07.180] Now you've gone way past your role as... [37:07.180 --> 37:08.540] I'm here as a counselor. [37:08.540 --> 37:09.460] And an ear. [37:09.760 --> 37:10.520] And a... [37:10.520 --> 37:11.380] A... [37:11.380 --> 37:12.620] You know, to actually like... [37:12.620 --> 37:12.740] You're... [37:12.740 --> 37:14.400] You're now becoming a co-conspirator. [37:14.400 --> 37:15.100] For like... [37:15.100 --> 37:16.740] Hey, you know... [37:16.740 --> 37:17.080] If you... [37:17.080 --> 37:17.520] You know... [37:17.520 --> 37:17.660] Don't... [37:17.660 --> 37:18.540] Don't hit him with a stick. [37:18.780 --> 37:20.000] I have a rifle you can borrow. [37:20.120 --> 37:20.260] Like... [37:20.260 --> 37:22.020] All of a sudden, you've now become a co-conspirator. [37:23.180 --> 37:23.780] Thank you. [37:23.980 --> 37:24.300] You're welcome. [37:28.750 --> 37:29.230] Oh. [37:33.790 --> 37:34.870] You want to use that one? [37:35.570 --> 37:36.050] Yeah. [37:36.550 --> 37:36.710] Oh. [37:38.230 --> 37:39.430] Let's play an AV game. [37:39.930 --> 37:40.410] Nope. [37:41.650 --> 37:42.870] We have one more game. [37:43.570 --> 37:44.050] Sorry. [37:50.530 --> 37:52.490] So actually, I don't have a question. [37:52.490 --> 37:54.030] But I just want to thank you for your presentation. [37:54.050 --> 38:01.610] And say that in 2020, during Black Lives Matter protests in Phoenix, I experienced kettling. [38:02.490 --> 38:02.890] Um... [38:02.890 --> 38:04.430] I knew it was a tactic. [38:04.650 --> 38:04.930] I didn't... [38:04.930 --> 38:06.270] I didn't know what the name was. [38:06.770 --> 38:25.070] But it was one of the most terrifying experiences of my life, because we were ordered to disperse and funneled into a very narrow street with high chain-linked fences that people were then trying to climb over that, you know, like can gouge you at the top as tear gas and officers were closing in on [38:25.070 --> 38:25.390] us. [38:25.710 --> 38:28.730] During that same protest, a bunch of people were arrested. [38:28.950 --> 38:39.910] And then the Phoenix PD basically made up a gang that they could collectively charge people under to increase the charges that were very serious. [38:39.910 --> 38:44.470] A federal investigation later found that they had fabricated that gang. [38:44.670 --> 38:52.730] They were placed under judicial oversight, found to systematically target minorities, disabled people, undocumented people. [38:53.790 --> 38:54.390] Um... [38:54.390 --> 38:56.050] This was a years-long investigation. [38:56.130 --> 38:59.670] Like I said, placed under oversight from the Department of Justice. [39:00.810 --> 39:04.330] As soon as Trump got into office, it was all dismissed. [39:04.330 --> 39:13.710] And so that entire pattern, um, that the Phoenix PD has been displaying for years is just now absolutely no repercussions. [39:14.050 --> 39:24.050] So I just wanted to thank you for your, um, presentation, because it validates and helps me make sense of some of the experiences I've had at in-person protests, too. [39:24.330 --> 39:25.270] So thank you. [39:25.890 --> 39:26.350] Thank you. [39:30.010 --> 39:31.270] How are we on time? [39:33.650 --> 39:34.770] Uh, hello. [39:35.230 --> 39:48.610] As a, uh, student at a private liberal arts college, how should I think about these issues, especially as I see, uh, my peers engaging in all kinds of different, uh, protest activities? [39:49.390 --> 39:56.030] I mean, if, if I, I would encourage you to find, like, what you consider safe and productive. [39:57.170 --> 40:13.170] Like, I, I, I, I, I used to, I actually still, I'm a member of a legal collective in Philly, and I'm, because I'm a, you know, middle-aged white professional douchebag, um, I found that, like, the hardcore protestors, like, dude, you're 22. [40:13.170 --> 40:14.470] I was 22, too. [40:14.470 --> 40:17.790] Um, but it's fun to talk to the people who are, like, older. [40:17.990 --> 40:18.550] And we did one. [40:18.670 --> 40:20.230] It was a, a, a, environmental protest. [40:20.470 --> 40:29.890] And there were a bunch of people from, uh, middle Pennsylvania, which is vastly different from the lovely burg of, you know, Philadelphia on Schuylkill. [40:30.330 --> 40:32.970] And they're like, I don't know if, and it's like, they're middle-aged people. [40:33.050 --> 40:34.730] I'm like, no, no, I want you to, you know, help. [40:34.870 --> 40:38.090] Please protest, because you look like, you look like the cops. [40:38.150 --> 40:39.050] You look like their neighbors. [40:39.210 --> 40:40.690] You look clean cut and boring. [40:41.330 --> 40:44.210] You know, maybe you don't want to go and lock yourself to something. [40:44.210 --> 40:47.570] But just standing there and going on the march is as effective. [40:48.010 --> 40:51.450] You know, I, I look at old photos of my dad protesting. [40:51.790 --> 40:55.410] And my dad was not, like, a big civil rights guy. [40:55.490 --> 40:59.030] But he would protest in his Navy whites as an enlisted person. [40:59.070 --> 41:00.630] And that's really effective. [41:01.190 --> 41:06.070] Is not looking like a lunatic, but instead looking like, hey, I, I, I'm, I'm your neighbor. [41:06.070 --> 41:16.370] Um, so, you know, be careful and, and, you know, figure out the level at which you feel comfortable and you feel productive doing this. [41:17.690 --> 41:18.430] Thank you. [41:18.710 --> 41:19.070] You're welcome. [41:22.400 --> 41:22.940] Hello. [41:22.940 --> 41:31.280] Um, I'm sure that some people in this room are familiar with the use of RICO to, uh, push back on people that have participated in Stop Cop City. [41:31.620 --> 41:45.900] I'm curious if you could talk a little bit about how, uh, much success that has had in courts, like with judges, and how much that is, uh, more of a, like, chilling tactic to scare people. [41:45.900 --> 41:48.640] It, it, it's less about the actual effect. [41:48.680 --> 41:49.740] It's the chilling effect. [41:49.920 --> 41:58.400] It's the, because that, what that does is that, a lot of this is to knock what I think, you know, that, what I described as like that middle-aged, you know, that middle-aged guy. [41:58.900 --> 41:59.160] Right? [42:00.120 --> 42:05.300] Uh, uh, uh, you know, person who's, you know, that 22-year-old, I'm angry, it's not gonna stop them. [42:05.400 --> 42:13.760] But it's gonna stop someone who's like, look, I got four hours to, I got four hours to show up here and then I gotta go pick up the kids and, uh, get the minivan and oil change. [42:13.760 --> 42:18.500] They have something to lose, and that's going to scare them off. [42:21.220 --> 42:37.580] Something interesting is the protests, the anti-ist protests in LA, the percentage of cases that are getting dismissed because they can't get indictments, because the grand jury's like, I'm sorry, this isn't a felony. [42:37.580 --> 42:43.220] And the whole bit about the lawyer, you know, any prosecutor can get an indict a ham sandwich. [42:43.580 --> 42:51.480] Like, the best comment I heard was a judge saying, one piece of bread does not a sandwich make. [42:52.840 --> 43:03.120] And getting those kicked out, like, wait a minute, so if you... Oh, okay, I'm sorry, I got... This is usually the, please stop. [43:03.360 --> 43:04.200] Thank you for your time. [43:04.200 --> 43:06.100] Or, we're French and we're protesting. [43:08.160 --> 43:14.440] Okay, you mentioned earlier that it is okay to film the police, but practically, I'd like to have a tip there. [43:14.520 --> 43:21.020] And I tell you a story that I was filming police violence against a minor, and then the first thing that happened, that as soon as I... [43:21.780 --> 43:22.680] Okay, I'll be very... [43:22.680 --> 43:22.940] Okay. [43:24.720 --> 43:25.720] It's a very quick one. [43:25.900 --> 43:29.520] Immediately, 10 police officers were around me, and they pushed me away from the scene. [43:29.760 --> 43:31.340] So how's a practical tip? [43:31.500 --> 43:32.640] How can I get out of this? [43:35.400 --> 43:39.880] I'm gonna... I'm gonna punt and say, use your best judgment in such a way that you don't hit the cop. [43:40.840 --> 43:43.470] Okay, thank you. [43:43.590 --> 43:43.910] Thank you.