[00:01.690 --> 00:03.850]  TAP is rather legendary.
[00:04.210 --> 00:06.870]  TAP stands for Technological Assistance Program.
[00:07.590 --> 00:28.910]  It started life on May 1, 1971, when Abbie Hoffman and a phone phreak called Al Bell decided they wanted to have a technical newsletter because there was... well, if you saw the movie The President's Analyst, it turned out that the enemy of the country was TPC.
[00:29.970 --> 00:34.770]  Yes, it turned out that the enemy was the phone company.
[00:38.650 --> 00:45.690]  And they decided that, yes, you know, the Bell system was oppressing people and they were overcharging.
[00:46.110 --> 01:06.590]  And the way that things were going on was that whatever Bell could justify spending in setting up the local phone company in your local phone service, they were required by law, and they made sure those laws got passed, to make back that money plus a rate of return for their shareholders.
[01:07.650 --> 01:19.970]  Well, you know, this was, you know, capitalism at its worst in time for the Yippies, the Youth International Party, to spearhead a way to break into the phone network and such.
[01:21.050 --> 01:28.470]  And they came up with the disgruntled telephone engineer in godforsaken Massachusetts, and the black box.
[01:29.850 --> 01:32.050]  I'm sorry, I'm not wearing my 2600 shirt today.
[01:32.270 --> 01:40.050]  If you look at the 2600 T-shirt with the blue box schematic, up in the corner, it says, where it all began.
[01:40.450 --> 01:42.030]  And it's the schematic diagram.
[01:42.250 --> 01:42.490]  Yes.
[01:42.950 --> 01:43.330]  Thank you.
[01:43.430 --> 01:44.630]  Would you hold that up, please?
[01:47.670 --> 01:48.310]  Thank you.
[01:53.990 --> 01:55.150]  Where it all began.
[01:55.170 --> 01:59.890]  And it's the schematic for the black box, which gets hooked up with a little switch.
[02:00.010 --> 02:02.730]  And when you know your friend is calling, you throw the switch.
[02:03.510 --> 02:04.750]  The phone rings.
[02:05.230 --> 02:06.630]  You pick up the phone.
[02:06.630 --> 02:08.590]  You talk to your friend in wherever.
[02:09.010 --> 02:14.350]  And when you hang up, the building equipment wonders why you've let the phone ring for 25 minutes.
[02:18.570 --> 02:19.770]  That's where it started.
[02:21.050 --> 02:28.110]  About three or four issues into YIPL, Y-I-P-L, the Youth International Party Line.
[02:29.970 --> 02:34.310]  Now, many of the youngsters do not understand what a party line was in rural America.
[02:36.090 --> 02:38.190]  You thought this was the history of TAP.
[02:38.350 --> 02:39.510]  It's a little of the history of telephony.
[02:39.670 --> 02:40.090]  Excuse me.
[02:40.270 --> 02:41.270]  I must digress.
[02:41.830 --> 02:47.750]  Party lines were when one wire was strung out from the central office down the farm road.
[02:48.170 --> 02:50.710]  And every farm along the way would get a drop.
[02:51.650 --> 02:55.610]  And Farmer Brown would get one short and one long ring.
[02:55.610 --> 03:00.150]  And Farmer Smith would get two short and one long, etc.
[03:00.570 --> 03:02.810]  The different codes for who the call was for.
[03:04.390 --> 03:10.170]  And these party lines, well, when you heard the ring for your neighbor, you'd kind of pick up and listen in.
[03:10.410 --> 03:13.990]  And so it became a way of the neighborhood finding out what's going on.
[03:13.990 --> 03:29.230]  Well, the Youth International Party Line was a way for the Yippee community and fellow travelers of technologically-minded people who may not be adding to the revolution, but like the technology of it, would share information through the newsletter.
[03:30.050 --> 03:38.270]  About four or five issues in, Al Bell took a look at his newsletter and said, what's all this political crap doing in here?
[03:39.210 --> 03:47.110]  Picked it up, moved out of Yippee headquarters, set up shop on his own, and changed the name to TAP, the Technological American Party.
[03:48.850 --> 03:52.710]  That ran for a couple of issues and then became the Technological Assistance Program.
[03:53.790 --> 03:59.710]  You ever tried to open a bank account with the word party in your name when you're not a bona fide political party?
[04:01.190 --> 04:02.670]  It was a problem.
[04:02.670 --> 04:07.390]  So that's why they changed the technological assistance program.
[04:09.750 --> 04:14.250]  People still called it the Technological American Party for a long time, but that was the official name.
[04:15.050 --> 04:17.490]  Al Bell ran the newsletter for a number of years.
[04:17.970 --> 04:19.850]  And then Tom Edison took over.
[04:21.890 --> 04:24.890]  And he ran it for another goodly number of years.
[04:25.150 --> 04:28.870]  And Tom was at the helm when I moved to New York City in 1976.
[04:30.510 --> 04:37.710]  And I'd been hopping from town to town from upstate New York where I lived to the Boston, Massachusetts area where I lived for a while.
[04:37.930 --> 04:41.470]  And seeing TAP now and then and subscribing now and then.
[04:41.670 --> 04:43.670]  And then I moved to the city and resubscribed.
[04:44.190 --> 04:53.310]  And they say that every Wednesday you could drop by 1201 Broadway on the seventh floor, I believe it was, and come to their gatherings and help them put the thing together and this and that.
[04:53.310 --> 04:56.350]  And about a year later, I finally found a Wednesday free.
[04:57.350 --> 05:03.170]  And I went down there and met the gang and started hanging out, started helping paste the thing up.
[05:03.390 --> 05:08.370]  As you'll recall, the blurb for TAP was, all the news that fits.
[05:11.250 --> 05:14.250]  Well, it's strictly cut and paste in those days.
[05:14.290 --> 05:15.850]  We didn't have desktop publishing.
[05:15.850 --> 05:18.470]  It's what you paste up is what you get.
[05:18.830 --> 05:21.650]  And we'd get these letters, some of them typed.
[05:22.170 --> 05:25.810]  If they weren't typed, okay, maybe we'd go to some trouble and type it if it were really good.
[05:26.030 --> 05:43.910]  But mostly, we'd take these typed in things, cut them up, lay them in to fit, reduce it down 75%, print it out on 11 by 22, fold it to 8 1⁄2 by 11, and wait until we had two issues to mail up and send them out.
[05:47.510 --> 05:49.190]  And those were the old days.
[05:50.710 --> 05:56.670]  I, one day, was publishing an article about my activities doing something.
[05:57.730 --> 06:04.230]  And somebody had submitted an article on Marisat, the Maritime Communication Satellite, and how to fiddle with the voice circuits.
[06:05.810 --> 06:08.710]  Well, fortunately, I was there that night as Tom was pasting it up.
[06:09.530 --> 06:14.510]  And I noticed that my article was being put opposite this other article.
[06:14.730 --> 06:15.710]  And I went, oh, no.
[06:15.990 --> 06:21.110]  I'm using a pseudonym that ComSat knows because I've used Marisat.
[06:21.830 --> 06:23.550]  I hacked the Telex circuits.
[06:25.450 --> 06:35.890]  And they might think that this was me telling about the Marisat stuff, and I wasn't giving that stuff out because things that went into TAP tended to go away.
[06:37.690 --> 06:41.810]  I couldn't imagine that anybody in the real world read this, of course.
[06:42.450 --> 06:46.970]  We probably went to more telephone security offices than Telephone Engineering Management magazine.
[06:47.230 --> 06:49.130]  But after all, I could understand our stuff.
[06:54.270 --> 06:57.630]  And as a result, I needed a quick name change.
[06:58.730 --> 07:06.490]  And that's when I remembered my old high school chemistry studies when we were talking about certain chemical reactions.
[07:06.910 --> 07:15.130]  And I'd been reading this other thing of a book by Carol and came up with the name Cheshire Catalyst.
[07:15.190 --> 07:17.250]  And wouldn't it be nifty to use it someday?
[07:18.150 --> 07:20.930]  And so it came to me in the nick of time.
[07:21.230 --> 07:24.830]  And I just ran to the typewriter, typed it up quick, pasted it down.
[07:25.370 --> 07:27.870]  And ever since then, I've been the Cheshire Catalyst.
[07:28.510 --> 07:31.030]  And, of course, people ought to know who the Cheshire Catalyst is.
[07:31.130 --> 07:32.510]  And I, of course, tell them Richard Cheshire.
[07:33.730 --> 07:34.910]  And they're happy with that.
[07:37.630 --> 07:39.610]  Most people know that Peter Parker is Spider-Man.
[07:40.450 --> 07:42.050]  That Superman is Clark Kent.
[07:42.890 --> 07:48.630]  And a third level, strictly for privacy purposes, never occurs to people.
[07:48.950 --> 07:51.970]  And with the cameras rolling, that's as far as I'm going to leave it right now.
[07:53.030 --> 07:56.510]  The fellow from Technology Illustrated put it the best.
[07:57.450 --> 07:59.290]  Richard Cheshire isn't his real name.
[07:59.470 --> 08:01.290]  In fact, it's not even his real pseudonym.
[08:04.730 --> 08:07.370]  If you really want to know my real name, that's fine.
[08:07.490 --> 08:08.190]  Come up to me later.
[08:08.190 --> 08:10.390]  I'm happy to tell you individually.
[08:10.650 --> 08:21.350]  But when they get it off the evening news, or when they get it out of the newspaper or the magazine, and they dig up my number through directory assistance, because I keep an extra listing, and I pick up the phone and say, Hey, Cheshire?
[08:22.430 --> 08:23.130]  I know.
[08:24.330 --> 08:25.950]  I know why they're calling me.
[08:26.250 --> 08:27.870]  I know where they're coming from.
[08:28.850 --> 08:32.410]  And I just, you know, fine.
[08:32.590 --> 08:38.050]  In the first 37 seconds, I'll probably tell them my name because it's the worst-kept secret on three continents.
[08:38.590 --> 08:41.510]  It would have been four, but my buddy forgot to mention it when he was in Australia.
[08:44.450 --> 08:48.910]  The thing is, when they...
[08:49.970 --> 08:51.910]  Big, you know, them.
[08:51.910 --> 09:00.210]  When they read TAP, read TAP, they would worry about us.
[09:01.550 --> 09:06.930]  And I wanted them to know, Hey, I'm not the kind of guy you've really got to worry about.
[09:07.570 --> 09:10.370]  Okay, some of our writers maybe you should worry about.
[09:10.550 --> 09:28.590]  But I wanted to keep things as cool and as above-board so that when I was followed, when my phone was tapped, things you just assume are going to happen, when they file the reports on me, Hey, you know, I'm not the guy you want to worry about.
[09:29.170 --> 09:36.690]  And I'll let you know where I'm going, and which conferences I'm going to, and, you know, send all your guys after me to check out what I'm doing and this and that and the other thing.
[09:37.890 --> 09:42.150]  But I was more worried about them worrying about me.
[09:45.290 --> 09:51.830]  Because if they don't know what you're doing, then they get scared stuffless and they've got to do something about it.
[09:52.970 --> 10:05.810]  And so I would just, you know, on the phone say, Oh, yeah, I'm going off to that conference, you know, IEEE show or whatever and this and that, and just would assume, they're listening, assume they're following, you know.
[10:06.430 --> 10:08.550]  And every once in a while, there was proof.
[10:09.910 --> 10:16.790]  There was the Pennsylvania State Police photos that showed up at one Friday night gathering.
[10:16.970 --> 10:24.110]  Oh, finally, rents got too expensive in Manhattan and we couldn't afford to have a place of an office of our own.
[10:24.430 --> 10:27.650]  And we went to meeting in different restaurants around town.
[10:29.450 --> 10:31.990]  And usually they closed up behind us, too.
[10:32.990 --> 10:37.590]  Or reincarnated and became very she-she and we couldn't afford them anymore and things like that.
[10:37.910 --> 10:40.550]  We had a couple of really good dives that were just loved.
[10:40.730 --> 10:44.430]  But, you know, I don't know, once we got there, what can I say?
[10:50.670 --> 10:55.530]  It went on until Tom Edison got firebombed.
[10:57.510 --> 11:13.710]  He went out to an amusement park, because he's a real rollercoaster freak, came home to find fire trucks, county sheriff, and it turned out that it was a really good break-in.
[11:14.470 --> 11:16.570]  They knew how to get in.
[11:17.610 --> 11:20.470]  And it was a really botched up arson.
[11:22.550 --> 11:29.550]  And, of course, the mere speculation, this is not fact, this is mere innuendo, because this is just stuff that we think about it.
[11:30.750 --> 11:37.870]  But, you know, Telco usually hires a bunch of old FBI people to work in their security departments and this and that.
[11:37.970 --> 11:46.210]  These are people who remember people they set up, and so they know how to find break-in artists, and they may not know how to find arsonists.
[11:46.330 --> 11:46.650]  I don't know.
[11:47.710 --> 11:57.890]  Mere speculation, just blindly, wouldn't even want to attempt to throw any innuendo towards the telephone company.
[12:00.050 --> 12:07.290]  At any rate, I got the phone call from Tom and said, Cheshire, I've just been firebombed.
[12:08.210 --> 12:12.590]  Get your ass down here with a truck or it's all going in the dumpster.
[12:15.150 --> 12:15.890]  What could I do?
[12:15.970 --> 12:16.610]  I got my roommate.
[12:16.710 --> 12:17.270]  We rented a truck.
[12:17.410 --> 12:17.830]  We went over.
[12:17.990 --> 12:18.650]  We got the stuff.
[12:18.870 --> 12:19.670]  We hauled it back.
[12:20.170 --> 12:25.190]  We hired a locker and mostly it was half my living room.
[12:27.430 --> 12:29.390]  They didn't go through the house very well.
[12:29.890 --> 12:31.750]  Most of the TAP stuff was in the basement.
[12:32.550 --> 12:36.750]  And they had poured some gasoline upstairs in a recreation room with all of his tapes.
[12:37.530 --> 12:40.590]  His reel-to-reel tapes.
[12:41.850 --> 12:42.490]  Yeah.
[12:43.450 --> 12:49.370]  The pre-recorded stuff, the good stuff, it was horrible.
[12:51.210 --> 12:57.110]  And so they poured some gasoline on the floor there and it took out, like, his Beatles collection was the worst part that went.
[12:57.270 --> 12:59.050]  And some of the others and others were saved.
[12:59.810 --> 13:04.370]  Downstairs in the living room, they poured it over his couch, lit, and ran.
[13:04.770 --> 13:10.930]  Well, the couch was close enough to the window that with the heat, it blew out the window and fed the flames.
[13:11.310 --> 13:16.370]  Upstairs, they never opened a window, so it flared, ate the oxygen, and died.
[13:17.210 --> 13:18.890]  So that's why it was a botched arson.
[13:19.970 --> 13:21.590]  Neighbors called the fire department.
[13:22.430 --> 13:26.690]  But all the TAP gear was downstairs and untouched by the fire.
[13:28.230 --> 13:33.110]  Well, this was in the spring of 83, I think it was.
[13:33.870 --> 13:35.510]  Or summer of 83.
[13:35.970 --> 13:37.370]  Late spring, early summer.
[13:37.370 --> 13:40.950]  And it was coming up to Telecom 83.
[13:42.150 --> 13:50.670]  The once every four years, huge symposium held by the International Telecommunications Union in Geneva, Switzerland.
[13:52.110 --> 14:01.470]  And so I was able to eke out enough of a budget that I could go over, you know, crashed with people, met people in the press room.
[14:01.470 --> 14:06.930]  And that was really cool, too, because here, of course, I publish a newsletter, so I can get press credentials.
[14:07.210 --> 14:10.050]  If I can get to a trade show, they'll let me in.
[14:10.570 --> 14:12.390]  So the hard part is the airfare.
[14:12.930 --> 14:16.470]  And then it's wherever I can find six foot of floor space for the sleeping bag or whatever.
[14:17.430 --> 14:17.990]  Excuse me.
[14:19.710 --> 14:31.930]  And we went to Geneva so that I could hang out, throw TAP newsletters all over the place, throw it under the nose of the AT&T booth, say, yeah, yeah, we ain't dead yet.
[14:35.510 --> 14:37.010]  And that's what that was about.
[14:37.270 --> 14:39.230]  That actually got us some good European publicity.
[14:40.810 --> 14:44.750]  Now, I like to play the publicity machine the way some people like to play pinball.
[14:45.310 --> 14:46.390]  I admit that.
[14:47.570 --> 14:53.810]  And I'm a little picky about who I play the publicity machine with.
[14:55.230 --> 14:57.610]  National Public Radio, I'll do anything for.
[14:57.850 --> 14:59.050]  I love NPR.
[14:59.210 --> 15:01.130]  They are my primary source of news.
[15:01.450 --> 15:02.830]  And I love those people.
[15:04.570 --> 15:07.110]  Pacifica, I'll go out of my way to help them as well.
[15:09.210 --> 15:10.490]  TV networks.
[15:13.850 --> 15:15.810]  People believe TV.
[15:15.810 --> 15:17.010]  TV much too easily.
[15:17.570 --> 15:18.510]  And not only that.
[15:19.670 --> 15:27.250]  The only guy that tells the public what they're going to see is the video editor back in the shop.
[15:27.850 --> 15:30.350]  Not the guy with the microphone in your face.
[15:30.550 --> 15:31.870]  Not the guy with the camera.
[15:32.030 --> 15:32.870]  Not the sound man.
[15:33.690 --> 15:37.670]  My trick, my real trick, was coming up with the sound bites.
[15:38.630 --> 15:40.690]  I mean, in this day and age we know what to call them.
[15:40.730 --> 15:42.150]  I didn't know what I was calling them back then.
[15:42.390 --> 15:44.530]  I was calling them short pithy phrases.
[15:44.810 --> 15:46.470]  And then finally found the term sound bites.
[15:47.290 --> 15:53.930]  But I'd come up with a sound bite that would grab the editor's attention and say, oh, yeah, we've got to use that one.
[15:55.430 --> 16:02.510]  And so I, you know, I would just, over the years, come up with all these different sound bites that would get the point across.
[16:03.670 --> 16:14.090]  You know, the thing about how, for decades, IBM cons the public into believing that you had to be a member of the computer priesthood to understand computers.
[16:14.610 --> 16:16.970]  And, of course, the kids haven't been around that long.
[16:17.090 --> 16:18.010]  They haven't been brainwashed.
[16:18.370 --> 16:20.550]  They play with their Commodore 64s at home.
[16:20.710 --> 16:23.770]  They go to school, elementary school, and play with their Apple IIs.
[16:23.770 --> 16:28.390]  They go to middle school, work on IBM PCs, find a modem, dial out.
[16:28.390 --> 16:32.330]  Oh, IBM 370, AS400, just another machine.
[16:33.470 --> 16:36.810]  And the just another machine line has been on more television sets.
[16:37.990 --> 16:39.490]  It's a good sound bite.
[16:40.910 --> 16:43.970]  But I hate taking the chance with American television.
[16:44.730 --> 16:46.590]  Now, overseas television.
[16:46.770 --> 16:47.950]  I've been on television in Italy.
[16:48.570 --> 16:50.690]  I was invited to Switzerland.
[16:51.770 --> 16:54.670]  I got to play with a video editing machine.
[16:54.670 --> 17:01.750]  And the fellow said, excuse me, Mr. Cheshire, but in the 15 minutes you have played with this machine, you have shown more experience than some of our people for three years.
[17:04.010 --> 17:06.910]  But it was a little, you know, there was a keyboard to handle some of the stuff.
[17:07.130 --> 17:08.030]  It handled the timing.
[17:08.330 --> 17:10.630]  And I knew one trick about continuity.
[17:11.650 --> 17:14.670]  Because I'd taken the tape of this Swiss-built car.
[17:14.830 --> 17:17.210]  It was driving through the woods, came out in the residential area.
[17:17.210 --> 17:21.050]  And then I cut in, spliced in a spot where we were back in the woods.
[17:21.190 --> 17:22.570]  And I, oh, I lost my continuity.
[17:22.710 --> 17:25.890]  Let me get a couple seconds to just cover the fluff and get my continuity back.
[17:26.070 --> 17:26.510]  All right.
[17:26.670 --> 17:38.390]  And this, you know, I found if you know a few buzzwords, if you pick up a couple of tricks here and there, and you toss them in where people don't really expect them, but show that you know something of what they're talking about.
[17:38.650 --> 17:46.910]  Even if it's wrong, but you've shown that you've got interest in their area, and you know something of what is going on, and they'll fill you in with the rest.
[17:47.370 --> 17:49.350]  And they love it because it's their area.
[17:50.290 --> 17:56.970]  And, oh, of course, you are only the amateur in this, and so let me tell you of my professional expertise, and you go, oh, it's wonderful stuff.
[17:57.250 --> 18:02.590]  And this is, you know, you can play this with the publicity machine, with social engineering, and all sorts of things.
[18:06.870 --> 18:08.110]  Got back from Geneva.
[18:08.650 --> 18:10.610]  We put a few more issues together.
[18:10.610 --> 18:12.250]  It went on for about another year.
[18:13.190 --> 18:14.670]  And I'm sorry, folks.
[18:14.890 --> 18:16.670]  I'm not a business person.
[18:18.070 --> 18:19.190]  This proved it.
[18:20.010 --> 18:22.350]  It rubbed my nose in it.
[18:23.690 --> 18:25.770]  And I was out of work at the time.
[18:26.150 --> 18:27.950]  I couldn't afford to keep that apartment.
[18:28.230 --> 18:30.270]  And everything went into a storage locker in Brooklyn.
[18:31.290 --> 18:35.110]  And it was trying to keep up the payments on the storage locker when I was offered a job in Florida.
[18:36.290 --> 18:40.730]  And it wasn't that big a job, and once I got there, they cut my salary on me.
[18:40.890 --> 18:42.890]  But it was still a fun job.
[18:43.190 --> 18:47.330]  And I moved there because I get to live next to the Kennedy Space Center.
[18:47.730 --> 18:49.610]  I like to watch things go up.
[18:49.970 --> 18:50.530]  All right.
[18:50.750 --> 18:51.510]  I admit it.
[18:51.650 --> 18:52.650]  I'm a space cadet.
[18:53.830 --> 18:55.710]  I'm a little old for it, but...
[18:57.230 --> 18:59.550]  But Tom Corbett style, not the way they've...
[19:00.030 --> 19:02.450]  See, the press has manipulated words on us again.
[19:04.230 --> 19:06.070]  Not just Hacker, but...
[19:06.070 --> 19:09.530]  I have a black jumpsuit I wear at science fiction convention.
[19:09.550 --> 19:10.930]  I call it my space ranger jumpsuit.
[19:11.030 --> 19:13.630]  I only call it space ranger because I'm too old to look like a space cadet.
[19:15.710 --> 19:16.150]  And...
[19:18.670 --> 19:19.550]  Yeah, yeah.
[19:20.190 --> 19:25.950]  But I'm down there and I'm helping, again, on a newsletter that we hand out to the tourists, telling them what's going up.
[19:26.750 --> 19:33.330]  And so that's what I'm doing these days is spreading the knowledge in a different area of technology.
[19:34.390 --> 19:44.970]  Also, because I was now living in Florida, in fact, the part of Florida I'm living in, right outside the Kennedy Space Center, mind you, is an area I refer to as rural.
[19:45.870 --> 19:50.130]  If you don't bring your own entertainment, you've got to haul off all the way to Orlando to do something decent.
[19:51.270 --> 19:57.150]  So, I found a local ham radio club, entered the novice class, got my Tech Plus.
[19:57.390 --> 19:58.810]  It was just Technician at the time.
[19:58.970 --> 20:00.710]  Six months later they came out with a no-code license.
[20:02.790 --> 20:06.410]  But I'm playing with packet radio, data communications over ham radio.
[20:07.590 --> 20:11.190]  So I don't need to try and break into networks to get away.
[20:11.370 --> 20:13.130]  I get replies from Great Britain in three days.
[20:13.990 --> 20:14.430]  Legally.
[20:15.970 --> 20:18.330]  You know, just outlay for some equipment.
[20:18.330 --> 20:20.110]  And it's been some fun times.
[20:20.230 --> 20:22.970]  Well, some of them may not seem so fun, but they were sure interesting.
[20:23.230 --> 20:28.090]  There was the eight-hour shift I pulled in Oakland after the earthquake, about a week after the earthquake.
[20:30.030 --> 20:39.030]  That gave me time in grade when Andrew came around, because that made me the only ham in Pinellas County with actual disaster experience.
[20:39.570 --> 20:42.350]  So I got to lead the 10-man team down to Homestead.
[20:43.670 --> 20:45.730]  And that was interesting stuff.
[20:46.330 --> 20:47.290]  FEMA was down there.
[20:47.790 --> 20:51.510]  They had a couple of semis, full of gear.
[20:51.830 --> 20:56.810]  You walked into Homestead Field Hospital, which two weeks before had been the Homestead Senior Center.
[20:57.470 --> 21:00.890]  You picked up a phone on their little PBX.
[21:01.270 --> 21:02.650]  You punched nine.
[21:03.370 --> 21:09.930]  It went out to the truck, up to Telstar 601, down to Maryland, and gave you a Maryland dial tone.
[21:11.350 --> 21:12.430]  It was slick.
[21:12.650 --> 21:15.730]  That truck had everything from DC to light.
[21:16.530 --> 21:18.250]  And it was slick.
[21:19.450 --> 21:21.670]  So, I've still been able to play with the tech stuff.
[21:22.530 --> 21:27.110]  I keep going down to my AT&T phone center store, harassing them so when I can get an ISDN.
[21:29.730 --> 21:31.390]  And when they go, ISDN?
[21:31.730 --> 21:32.370]  What's that?
[21:32.650 --> 21:34.210]  Oh, it stands for, I still don't know.
[21:38.050 --> 21:40.750]  And then I say, well, actually, it's Integrated Services Digital Network.
[21:40.930 --> 21:48.770]  And then I try to educate them so that somewhere down the line when they go to a seminar, that's what that bearded weirdo was talking about.
[21:52.030 --> 21:57.450]  And, you know, hopefully, I've given them enough interest that some customers out there might want to know.
[22:00.290 --> 22:07.550]  So, that pretty much covers what I did, what I've been doing, and can I take any questions?
[22:09.770 --> 22:10.330]  Yes.
[22:10.330 --> 22:13.870]  When I was going to write a book that isn't intense,
[22:17.340 --> 22:20.040]  so that some of these things are going to be something like that.
[22:23.340 --> 22:23.800]  Lady?
[22:25.000 --> 22:26.980]  It's a comic book first, believe me.
[22:31.140 --> 22:31.600]  No.
[22:32.220 --> 22:32.500]  No.
[22:32.920 --> 22:34.920]  I wouldn't even call it that.
[22:35.080 --> 22:35.980]  This one ain't graphic.
[22:36.160 --> 22:36.200]  No.
[22:36.240 --> 22:37.800]  This is pure comic book.
[22:39.660 --> 22:40.120]  Pardon?
[22:40.120 --> 22:49.140]  The question was, would I compile all the back issues of TAP with my personal experiences into a book?
[22:49.320 --> 22:54.600]  Now, I will say that I have dreamed about putting out all the issues as a book.
[22:55.700 --> 23:08.520]  I have even gone so far as to find out a couple of publishers that do some paper cover stuff that wouldn't be that expensive because it's not like I'm out to make the high-priced books so I can make the bucks.
[23:08.800 --> 23:11.880]  My whole thing has always been, spread the knowledge.
[23:12.620 --> 23:13.700]  Get the word out.
[23:14.280 --> 23:17.100]  Do it as cheap as I can afford to do it to get it out.
[23:17.880 --> 23:23.100]  But, ladies and gents, we're talking, it's ten years since the newsletter died.
[23:24.580 --> 23:27.560]  The good information is at least 20 years old.
[23:28.120 --> 23:33.440]  The stuff you're looking for is either dead, dying, or is of pure historical interest only.
[23:34.520 --> 23:36.660]  But, you're not the first one to ask.
[23:37.280 --> 23:43.640]  There is enough interest that I could probably put out the book and I'll tell you, I am thinking about it.
[23:45.680 --> 23:46.180]  Yes.
[23:46.180 --> 23:50.820]  Are you aware of all the people that suffer this whole country trying to solve patent issues?
[23:51.380 --> 23:51.740]  Yes.
[23:52.980 --> 23:55.040]  A couple of them I'm pissed about.
[23:57.380 --> 23:59.660]  And I've actually thought about going after them.
[24:00.640 --> 24:10.260]  Because the one thing I didn't lose when I couldn't afford the payments on the locker in Brooklyn and they auctioned it off and I'm afraid it's all gone.
[24:11.100 --> 24:13.700]  But some stuff got taken to Florida with me.
[24:14.720 --> 24:20.380]  And one of them was the corporate seal for the corporation that was tapped.
[24:21.940 --> 24:26.180]  So, you know, if I really wanted to push it, yeah, I could go after them.
[24:27.740 --> 24:29.560]  But then I wouldn't be getting the knowledge out.
[24:31.900 --> 24:34.040]  So, I know those guys are out there.
[24:34.200 --> 24:35.820]  I know they're making a buck on it.
[24:35.820 --> 24:36.660]  Okay?
[24:37.420 --> 24:55.020]  But if people are, in my estimation, foolish enough to spend that much money for information that's that old and decrepit, you know, if they really want the information that badly, I'll let them go to those guys and get it.
[24:56.100 --> 24:57.300]  That's my take on it.
[24:58.360 --> 24:58.960]  Yes?
[24:59.300 --> 25:02.300]  I seem to remember seeing a electronic...
[25:06.180 --> 25:09.180]  Whatever happens to an electronic issue of TAP online?
[25:09.520 --> 25:10.760]  I mean, I don't know
[25:13.950 --> 25:14.510]  what...
[25:15.350 --> 25:18.690]  It's an issue that I know nothing about.
[25:19.130 --> 25:23.230]  And never came out of the TAP newsletter that died with me.
[25:23.470 --> 25:23.690]  Yes?
[25:24.530 --> 25:26.850]  There was a guy in Kentucky whose name was...
[25:30.480 --> 25:31.520]  Great PBS.
[25:33.240 --> 25:38.960]  And he had seemed to indicate a few years ago that he could give him permission to take over.
[25:41.830 --> 25:48.530]  Okay, the gentleman is saying that there was a fellow in Kentucky who thinks that he had permission to put out the TAP newsletter.
[25:49.550 --> 25:56.530]  When a fellow in Kentucky surfaced and wanted to put out the TAP newsletter, I flew up from Florida for a conference.
[25:56.530 --> 25:57.510]  We set a date.
[25:57.750 --> 26:00.770]  The location was the Days Inn on 57th Street.
[26:01.390 --> 26:04.650]  And there's a couple of people that are at this conference that came to that.
[26:07.070 --> 26:08.570]  And they never showed up.
[26:10.050 --> 26:16.650]  Because we were going to discuss it, and they never showed up, and I never heard from them again.
[26:19.150 --> 26:22.910]  Now, I'm given to understand they may have actually put something out.
[26:23.710 --> 26:25.330]  I have never seen it.
[26:26.510 --> 26:32.670]  And so, the way I have to put the statement is, that is not part of the TAP newsletter that died with me.
[26:33.490 --> 26:35.970]  They may have put out something else that they called TAP.
[26:36.550 --> 26:37.850]  Excuse me, you were...
[26:37.850 --> 26:41.810]  Are you aware that there's quite a number of issues stored electronically on the net?
[26:42.250 --> 26:45.610]  Am I aware that there's a number of issues stored electronically on the net?
[26:46.210 --> 26:47.350]  No, I'm not.
[26:48.150 --> 26:49.590]  That wouldn't bother me.
[26:50.770 --> 26:57.050]  And the thing is, that what's stored electronically on the net would be mostly ASCII text.
[26:57.170 --> 26:57.650]  Am I correct?
[26:57.950 --> 26:58.390]  Yes.
[26:59.910 --> 27:21.590]  There was so much in the graphics of TAP, and in how sloppy, and in how amateurish it was, that it was one of the things I was proud of, for the fact that I would hope that they wouldn't worry about us because we were only these, you know, dumb schmucks putting out this damn newsletter.
[27:24.390 --> 27:28.150]  I really wanted to give them the impression, hey, we're only amateurs out here.
[27:28.350 --> 27:30.710]  We're only taking the information coming into us.
[27:31.030 --> 27:37.230]  And I'd rather have you following us who are publishing than trying to track back the people who are actually submitting and doing things.
[27:37.930 --> 27:41.490]  So, I kept my life really clean about that, I gotta tell ya.
[27:42.350 --> 27:45.070]  Because I assumed they were watching.
[27:45.990 --> 27:47.410]  I had to assume that.
[27:49.590 --> 27:51.430]  There's another... Yes.
[27:52.550 --> 27:54.490]  Oh, you know me for some time.
[27:54.650 --> 27:54.810]  Yeah.
[27:55.270 --> 28:01.250]  So, I wanted to ask you a question relating to your prior experience in everything.
[28:01.770 --> 28:07.810]  What do you think the future has in store for the people here who are still interested in acting?
[28:08.090 --> 28:10.330]  Where should they focus their energies to?
[28:12.390 --> 28:13.030]  Okay.
[28:13.030 --> 28:13.350]  Where should...
[28:13.350 --> 28:13.590]  Okay.
[28:14.030 --> 28:20.410]  He wants my perspective on the future, where the people here should put their energies for the future.
[28:25.640 --> 28:26.280]  Hmm.
[28:28.900 --> 28:30.820]  That's a hard one for me to answer.
[28:33.100 --> 28:43.340]  I think there are enough interesting technologies out there that there is no need to hack past the bounds of propriety into cracking.
[28:45.140 --> 28:52.820]  I found an interesting niche in ham radio with the packet radio stuff so I can transmit data around wirelessly.
[28:53.720 --> 28:58.800]  Although, as a friend of mine said once, it's amazing how many cables you need for wireless communications.
[29:02.200 --> 29:02.800]  And...
[29:04.960 --> 29:08.120]  But there's always that interest in what's beyond.
[29:10.140 --> 29:14.700]  There's always that thing the young kids have of wanting to be naughty.
[29:15.400 --> 29:17.340]  And then wanting to brag about it.
[29:19.580 --> 29:21.640]  I never addressed that with TAP.
[29:22.760 --> 29:24.920]  I just know that it's part of human nature.
[29:26.640 --> 29:28.840]  And all I can say is...
[29:30.180 --> 29:31.220]  Be careful.
[29:33.420 --> 29:40.960]  Don't do anything really dangerous because if you get them to really start worrying about you, they will come down hard.
[29:42.060 --> 29:43.500]  You've got to be careful.
[29:45.600 --> 29:46.080]  Um...
[29:46.080 --> 29:50.040]  In 1980, a friend of mine was hacking the internet.
[29:51.880 --> 29:55.760]  Connected to NIC, Network Information Center, pulled down a net map.
[29:56.720 --> 29:57.700]  Well, let's see.
[29:57.800 --> 30:00.160]  What's the farthest thing on the network I can reach?
[30:00.260 --> 30:03.360]  Oh, way out here in Europe, something called NORSAR.
[30:04.400 --> 30:05.840]  I don't know what that is.
[30:06.140 --> 30:06.960]  C-space NORSAR.
[30:08.180 --> 30:10.280]  Welcome to the Norwegian Seismic Array.
[30:11.360 --> 30:11.760]  Okay.
[30:11.940 --> 30:12.680]  Well, it's in Norway.
[30:12.880 --> 30:13.420]  It's a...
[30:14.220 --> 30:14.620]  Nor...
[30:15.340 --> 30:15.740]  Seismic...
[30:16.220 --> 30:16.620]  Array...
[30:17.240 --> 30:17.640]  NORSAR.
[30:17.760 --> 30:17.980]  Okay.
[30:18.080 --> 30:18.760]  That makes sense.
[30:18.940 --> 30:19.100]  Fine.
[30:20.680 --> 30:23.200]  Well, now that I'm here, let's...
[30:23.200 --> 30:23.480]  Directory.
[30:23.880 --> 30:24.040]  Yeah.
[30:24.240 --> 30:24.380]  Okay.
[30:24.520 --> 30:25.600]  Interesting file names.
[30:25.800 --> 30:26.340]  Really dull.
[30:26.980 --> 30:27.380]  Okay.
[30:27.620 --> 30:28.900]  Type, file name, blah, blah, blah.
[30:29.580 --> 30:36.620]  Boy, you know, I don't know much about seismic information, but from what little I know, well, this is seismic information.
[30:38.060 --> 30:38.500]  Dull.
[30:38.680 --> 30:38.960]  Boy.
[30:39.080 --> 30:41.240]  Oh, that looks like a latitude longitude.
[30:41.620 --> 30:42.060]  Okay.
[30:42.400 --> 30:45.880]  So I'll pull out my World Atlas and I'll look it up here in the Soviet Union.
[30:46.120 --> 30:48.040]  And isn't this the area where the nuclear underground...
[30:50.260 --> 30:50.700]  Cheshire!
[30:52.360 --> 30:56.520]  Now, Jay Random Hacker was able to pull this stuff up.
[30:56.720 --> 31:05.160]  Is this the game of the DOD playing with the Soviets of letting them know that we know that they know that we know?
[31:06.480 --> 31:10.020]  Is this a game that we should be, you know, involved in?
[31:10.800 --> 31:16.180]  How do you call the CIA and say, um, excuse me, we think you might have a problem here?
[31:16.180 --> 31:18.500]  Uh, we're just Jay Random Hackers.
[31:18.720 --> 31:25.340]  We held something called Watts 80, the Washington Area Telecommunications Symposium.
[31:27.000 --> 31:31.180]  And, um, we generated lots of publicity.
[31:31.660 --> 31:35.220]  Uh, AP, UPI releases went out to the Washington Times.
[31:35.700 --> 31:37.300]  Uh, TV cameras showed up.
[31:38.020 --> 31:43.480]  Uh, a few people in blue coats and ties who quickly lost the ties, you know, which was fine.
[31:43.480 --> 31:44.000]  That's what we wanted.
[31:44.220 --> 31:45.280]  We had a rate structure.
[31:46.040 --> 31:46.940]  Admission, five dollars.
[31:48.160 --> 31:49.600]  Four dollars with government ID.
[31:51.920 --> 31:54.000]  Three dollars with government ID you could prove was phony.
[31:57.540 --> 31:59.480]  And we figured nobody would try that, and they didn't.
[31:59.600 --> 32:00.340]  But, yeah, we just...
[32:00.340 --> 32:01.500]  Funny sign, right?
[32:01.680 --> 32:02.320]  Okay, let's...
[32:02.320 --> 32:04.020]  We're here to have fun and spread the word.
[32:04.260 --> 32:06.680]  And we told this story about NORSAR.
[32:07.360 --> 32:09.500]  And we don't know if anything ever happened from it.
[32:11.000 --> 32:14.740]  But, we wanted them to know, listen, we're finding this stuff.
[32:15.700 --> 32:20.960]  We're not unpatriotic because when the Russians come over Lake Erie, we're the first guys they want to take out.
[32:21.140 --> 32:23.600]  We know how to get through the networks and be the communications underground.
[32:24.180 --> 32:25.260]  We're good at that already.
[32:27.520 --> 32:31.160]  And, um, you know, we knew the Russians weren't our friends.
[32:31.680 --> 32:36.300]  I mean, yeah, we're long-haired, scraggly, you know, and you think we're all communists.
[32:36.300 --> 32:39.600]  But, you know, we threw out the politicians back when we changed from YIPL to TAP.
[32:39.820 --> 32:40.960]  You know, come on, we're technos.
[32:43.780 --> 32:44.700]  They're really paranoid.
[32:44.900 --> 32:49.840]  Can't get over this fact that we're being so friendly and trying to help them and what have you.
[32:49.980 --> 32:52.120]  But, you know, why are they being so friendly, you know?
[32:52.720 --> 33:06.160]  So, but when we were faced with what we thought was a dilemma, we did it in the most public way we could, to just, again, share the knowledge that it could be done, that it was hackable.
[33:06.340 --> 33:13.580]  And I really think that TAP and 2600 today, it's their TAP on the underground, let's face it.
[33:14.160 --> 33:17.060]  And in fact, I almost marketed TAP that way.
[33:17.720 --> 33:26.380]  A friend of mine runs a telecommunications magazine and was willing to give me the mailing list of his magazine subscribers to do a mailing.
[33:27.660 --> 33:29.440]  And this was just before TAP died.
[33:29.620 --> 33:31.480]  And I had the letter all done out.
[33:31.600 --> 33:33.580]  I was going to enter it into one of these direct mailing contests.
[33:33.680 --> 33:34.340]  I was so proud of it.
[33:34.720 --> 33:39.300]  And it was, Dear Mr. Mumble, can you afford not to know what the fuck is going on?
[33:43.400 --> 33:52.420]  The first line was designed to either shut him right down and throw the thing in the trash, or he was hooked.
[33:56.540 --> 34:00.700]  And, you know, I have fun crafting that kind of wordsmithing.
[34:02.180 --> 34:05.520]  But the business side of the house is not where I come from.
[34:05.680 --> 34:06.680]  Never has been.
[34:06.960 --> 34:08.160]  I've learned my lesson well.
[34:08.400 --> 34:09.080]  I'm sorry.
[34:10.400 --> 34:11.820]  TAP was lots of fun.
[34:12.460 --> 34:21.160]  The Friday night gatherings at restaurants is being carried on once a month on the first Friday of the month in cities all over the country with the 2600 gatherings.
[34:21.900 --> 34:24.200]  And I'm sorry, I live too far from one.
[34:26.700 --> 34:30.840]  And I've been out of it for so long, I'm not even sure I want to start one in my local area.
[34:31.000 --> 34:32.960]  I'd be afraid he'd show up just because it was me.
[34:38.580 --> 34:40.000]  I'm in 407.
[34:41.620 --> 34:42.060]  Yeah.
[34:43.220 --> 34:45.240]  My closest meeting is over in Clearwater.
[34:45.460 --> 34:50.900]  And what's worse is, for a year, I lived about six blocks from the mall where that meeting is held.
[34:55.180 --> 34:57.160]  Anyway, I think that about handles that.
[34:57.260 --> 34:58.040]  More questions, please?
[35:00.560 --> 35:01.480]  Thank you very much.
[35:01.560 --> 35:01.960]  Appreciate it.