[00:00.000 --> 00:00.600] if it is. [00:01.920 --> 00:02.560] Thank you. [00:02.740 --> 00:04.160] Make this nice and professional-like. [00:06.140 --> 00:11.900] Okay, welcome to the 2600 meetings, a valuable resource or a waste of time. [00:12.080 --> 00:14.280] I also want to officially welcome everybody to HOPE Number Six. [00:14.460 --> 00:17.460] It's going very well so far, and good to see you all here. [00:17.780 --> 00:18.700] Hope you're having fun. [00:19.180 --> 00:21.220] Hope you stay all night, all weekend. [00:25.060 --> 00:27.660] I want to announce there's a party tonight, too. [00:28.320 --> 00:31.600] Everyone is meeting at 11 o'clock at the info desk on the second floor. [00:32.120 --> 00:35.620] And they're all going over to Mustang Harry's, so keep that in mind. [00:35.800 --> 00:37.260] Are you sure it's not Mustang Sally's? [00:37.360 --> 00:38.460] No, it's Mustang Harry's. [00:38.700 --> 00:40.220] All right, I was going to go to Mustang Sally's. [00:40.360 --> 00:41.300] Sally is Harry, but whatever. [00:41.300 --> 00:42.360] There's a lot of Mustangs around here. [00:43.520 --> 00:47.640] Okay, I just want to introduce the panel, number 117, over at the end there. [00:49.640 --> 00:53.360] Otherwise known as Rop, from Holland, who's here. [00:53.940 --> 00:55.480] Number 84, Lexicon. [00:56.560 --> 00:58.560] Number 134, Bernie S, me. [00:59.420 --> 01:02.040] Number six, Jeopardy Jim. [01:02.040 --> 01:04.440] I am number 62, and over there, you don't have a number. [01:04.640 --> 01:05.110] Do you have a number? [01:05.220 --> 01:05.820] I do have a number. [01:05.830 --> 01:06.160] What's your number? [01:06.240 --> 01:06.910] I don't have it here. [01:07.130 --> 01:08.900] I'm number 136. [01:09.380 --> 01:09.930] You are? [01:10.110 --> 01:10.380] Yeah. [01:10.600 --> 01:11.570] Okay, if you insist. [01:14.850 --> 01:21.850] This panel came about as a result of a discussion Rop and I had in Amsterdam last winter, I believe. [01:22.160 --> 01:26.560] Were we both drinking heavily at the time, or was it just a civilized conversation? [01:26.560 --> 01:28.070] I'm not sure how these things come about. [01:28.320 --> 01:29.990] I never drink, so... Okay. [01:30.260 --> 01:31.600] Well, maybe I was drinking heavily. [01:31.600 --> 01:31.990] I don't know. [01:34.200 --> 01:43.060] Basically, 2600 meetings began in 1987 in New York, and they expanded to cities like Philadelphia and San Francisco. [01:43.570 --> 01:51.180] At some point, Washington D.C., and then there was the raid on the Washington, D.C. meeting, and that resulted in an explosion of meetings. [01:51.350 --> 01:52.880] So we had meetings all over the world after that. [01:53.240 --> 01:54.900] And it's never really gone down. [01:55.210 --> 01:57.140] And the meetings are very interesting. [01:57.240 --> 01:59.120] They always take place on the first Friday of the month. [01:59.760 --> 02:08.020] And basically, people interested in the magazine, or hacking in general, or just getting together in a food court someplace, gather at that time. [02:08.500 --> 02:11.400] And there have been a variety of positive and negative things. [02:12.020 --> 02:17.900] And, well, we're going to focus on both this particular panel. [02:18.120 --> 02:21.700] And, of course, we're open to suggestion and input and stories that you might have. [02:22.460 --> 02:26.360] So I guess, Rop, do you want to start, or do you want to finish? [02:26.600 --> 02:27.340] Which way do you want to go? [02:27.920 --> 02:28.540] I'll finish. [02:28.820 --> 02:29.020] Okay. [02:29.140 --> 02:31.320] So we'll start over with... Well, Walter, do you want to start? [02:31.920 --> 02:33.460] When did you first start coming to meetings? [02:33.620 --> 02:34.620] Where are the meetings you went to? [02:34.820 --> 02:36.580] What's some memorable things? [02:36.640 --> 02:38.960] Yeah, I think I started coming to meetings a long time ago. [02:39.200 --> 02:41.960] Maybe the late 80s. [02:42.000 --> 02:42.720] When did the meeting start? [02:43.180 --> 02:43.740] 1987. [02:44.260 --> 02:48.660] Yeah, I think maybe before the 90s, 89, 88, something like that. [02:49.200 --> 02:52.560] And I remember my first meeting. [02:52.720 --> 02:54.980] I was running a BBS back in those days. [02:56.140 --> 02:58.400] And I met Phiber Optik. [02:59.120 --> 03:04.360] And apparently, he had dialed into my BBS and he pulled my records. [03:04.740 --> 03:06.780] And he, I met him. [03:06.900 --> 03:10.900] And the first thing he said is, you and my full name. [03:11.000 --> 03:13.020] And he pronounced it correctly, which is not easy. [03:13.520 --> 03:15.080] And gave me my address. [03:15.320 --> 03:18.980] So it was very, it was exciting. [03:19.180 --> 03:23.060] It was an exciting and scary meeting for me. [03:23.880 --> 03:25.240] He pulled your docs, eh? [03:25.340 --> 03:25.660] Yes. [03:26.660 --> 03:26.980] Wow. [03:26.980 --> 03:29.280] And Jeopardy Jim here. [03:29.480 --> 03:31.220] You've been at many New York City meetings. [03:31.520 --> 03:39.060] Yeah, I started coming to meetings in 1994, just ahead of HOPE, the original one. [03:39.680 --> 03:45.880] And I've attended, I'd say about three quarters of them since then, including some of the more infamous ones. [03:46.640 --> 03:53.940] The 60 Minutes Expose, where they tried to get us to talk about pictures of women and donkeys on the Internet. [03:55.940 --> 04:00.840] The one where the director and art director of hackers came looking for information. [04:01.220 --> 04:06.460] And Angelina Jolie, even at age 17, was too big a star to talk to us. [04:06.520 --> 04:09.300] So she just skated around CityCorp Center. [04:09.580 --> 04:11.780] You guys know that Angelina Jolie came to one of our meetings. [04:11.940 --> 04:12.340] Isn't that something? [04:12.540 --> 04:12.740] Yeah. [04:12.960 --> 04:14.120] And it blew us off. [04:15.000 --> 04:15.880] No, she was nice. [04:15.920 --> 04:16.650] She was a nice kid. [04:16.820 --> 04:19.140] We weren't as pretty as Brad Pitt, even then. [04:20.300 --> 04:24.080] This was when they were making... Good one. [04:25.980 --> 04:30.200] After this panel, could all the women in the audience just beat that guy down? [04:31.500 --> 04:32.800] Good thing that was not off the hook. [04:34.160 --> 04:35.800] No, she was actually very friendly. [04:36.000 --> 04:40.860] We were doing some stuff with hackers, advising them not to do certain things that they wound up doing anyway. [04:41.720 --> 04:48.980] And it's just kind of a mecca, I guess, for a lot of people that this is where the hackers are, right or wrong. [04:49.160 --> 04:49.940] They came to the meetings. [04:50.140 --> 05:00.340] The movie Hackers would never have been made without the New York City meeting because the guy who wrote it would show up at the meetings and get material and even handles from various attendees. [05:00.600 --> 05:03.600] So there are people who came to the meetings who are in that movie. [05:03.960 --> 05:06.640] And he basically borrowed their characters. [05:07.440 --> 05:11.540] And I think there's some good and some bad in that, but it does make for some historical moments. [05:11.540 --> 05:15.740] And as Jim mentioned, Mike Wallace from 60 Minutes was at one of our meetings too. [05:15.880 --> 05:19.840] And he was interrogating us about various positions of donkeys and sexual poses. [05:19.960 --> 05:26.300] I don't know what the hell he was thinking, why we had anything to do with this, but apparently that's his definition of hackers. [05:28.220 --> 05:32.080] Bernie here, when he was in Philadelphia, he went to the Philadelphia meetings. [05:32.560 --> 05:39.540] And well, I'm sorry to say, probably a direct result of the Philadelphia 2600 meeting is what landed him in prison. [05:42.160 --> 05:43.400] Is that a lead-in? [05:43.800 --> 05:45.100] I think that's a lead-in, yeah, but... [05:46.520 --> 05:51.460] Well, in 87, actually, the first 2600 meeting in Philadelphia was in 87. [05:51.780 --> 05:53.700] And it was only three people showed up. [05:53.780 --> 05:59.380] Emmanuel, who tried to get it going, myself, and Mike Yuhas. [05:59.460 --> 05:59.820] Mike Yuhas. [05:59.920 --> 06:00.240] That's right. [06:00.400 --> 06:02.340] Who knew more area codes than anybody else. [06:02.360 --> 06:03.400] He knew all the area codes. [06:03.700 --> 06:04.300] He still does. [06:04.600 --> 06:05.340] It's amazing. [06:06.380 --> 06:08.920] And that was sort of a one-time thing, that Philadelphia meeting. [06:09.820 --> 06:16.000] But about three years later, I started the one at 30th Street Station in Philadelphia, under stairwell seven. [06:16.660 --> 06:18.320] And that was very popular. [06:18.460 --> 06:19.540] A lot of people started showing up. [06:20.020 --> 06:27.500] A few months after it started, we had attendances of up to 40 people at that meeting. [06:27.780 --> 06:34.580] And it got so where I would be... I called Bell Atlantic Mobile Systems Technical Department. [06:34.720 --> 06:40.800] And got two Bell Cellular Engineers to come and give us a presentation about how their cellular network worked. [06:41.000 --> 06:47.040] And we social engineered them into giving us some information about where some of their equipment was located. [06:47.280 --> 06:50.840] Several stories underground 30th Street Station in the catacombs. [06:51.180 --> 06:54.500] And then after the meeting, we all went down and explored and found the equipment. [07:00.760 --> 07:01.860] It wasn't easy either. [07:02.020 --> 07:03.700] But you remember all those tunnels. [07:03.860 --> 07:04.700] We went down there another time. [07:04.800 --> 07:05.780] But they were hot tunnels. [07:06.060 --> 07:06.300] Oh, man. [07:06.400 --> 07:07.420] It was like the beside adventure. [07:07.520 --> 07:09.000] They're like steam coming out and everything. [07:09.860 --> 07:12.660] But has anyone here not explored a tunnel ever? [07:13.380 --> 07:14.680] It's the most awesome thing that... [07:14.680 --> 07:16.140] And don't go on that tunnels at the hotel. [07:16.160 --> 07:16.480] There's tunnels. [07:16.620 --> 07:18.180] I was gonna say there's tunnels here, but don't go there. [07:18.440 --> 07:19.300] Now they're gonna go there. [07:20.880 --> 07:23.080] There's really cool tunnels at the hotel across the street. [07:23.200 --> 07:23.380] Go there. [07:25.920 --> 07:28.940] So the Philadelphia meetings really took off well. [07:29.260 --> 07:34.020] And they went well for about four years or so. [07:35.360 --> 07:44.700] And it turns out I started bringing quartz crystals and unmodified Touch-Tone dialers to that meeting at the suggestion of someone at this table. [07:45.720 --> 07:46.620] Just wait a minute. [07:46.720 --> 07:47.360] I suggested this? [07:47.360 --> 07:51.080] Well, he suggested that it would be a public service to the hacking community. [07:51.760 --> 07:54.080] Because it was really hard to get one of these crystals. [07:54.440 --> 07:59.740] So I contracted with a crystal manufacturer just to make a large batch of them. [08:00.260 --> 08:01.920] So we could be affordable. [08:02.200 --> 08:04.620] Do you guys know why the crystals were wanted? [08:04.880 --> 08:05.140] Oh, yeah. [08:05.240 --> 08:06.060] Do you all know about the crystals? [08:07.400 --> 08:08.480] Not crystal meth. [08:08.900 --> 08:09.940] Crystals with magical power. [08:10.200 --> 08:11.940] These are crystals with magical powers. [08:12.100 --> 08:13.900] The trick was that I can't take credit for. [08:14.460 --> 08:16.840] There was a very good article in 2600. [08:16.940 --> 08:17.640] I forget who wrote it. [08:17.760 --> 08:33.000] But someone determined that the Touch-Tone frequencies were... the ratio between the two tones and a Touch-Tone frequency was almost identical to the ratio of the two tones used by payphones to signal a coin deposit to the central office. [08:33.280 --> 08:37.880] And if you just change the quartz crystal, the tiny crystal in the Touch-Tone dialer, you could buy at RadioShack or something. [08:37.980 --> 08:41.340] Then it would shift it to a frequency that was right with intolerance. [08:41.340 --> 08:44.620] And you could like store five stars or asterisks in it. [08:44.700 --> 08:48.980] And it would simulate the sound of a quarter going to payphone sufficiently well enough to make a call. [08:49.120 --> 08:49.660] But anyway... [08:49.660 --> 08:51.620] You've all heard of the RadioShack tone dialer thing. [08:51.760 --> 08:55.860] Now, I forgot about this, that it actually was printed in 2600. [08:56.060 --> 08:58.620] And I guess that makes us responsible for this whole explosion. [08:58.660 --> 08:59.700] Actually, it is your fault. [09:00.460 --> 09:03.320] Mr. French, I think, was the guy that did that. [09:03.380 --> 09:08.200] Here's a guy I met on a voicemail system by accident, just by both of us hacking into the same voicemail system. [09:08.240 --> 09:09.440] He was in Texas, I was in New York. [09:09.580 --> 09:12.320] And he just wrote a letter one day saying, hey, guess what I discovered? [09:12.860 --> 09:15.320] And the whole telecom industry was affected by that. [09:15.340 --> 09:21.140] And the fact that that could have... that that worked, that hack worked, was, as he wrote in the article, beyond luck. [09:21.360 --> 09:23.940] It was like a divine intervention. [09:24.420 --> 09:32.020] I mean, there's... I mean, the chances of those two frequency ratios being so close were, you know, a million to one. [09:32.320 --> 09:33.880] So, somebody was looking out for it. [09:34.520 --> 09:36.200] But someone wasn't looking out for you. [09:36.200 --> 09:36.520] No. [09:36.700 --> 09:53.700] Well, anyway, it turns out that one of the people that attended the 2600 meeting in Philadelphia turned out to be a federal informant and ultimately contacted the Secret Service after my initial arrest and gave them a lot of information about stuff I was talking about at the meetings, [09:53.840 --> 09:55.820] none of which was about fraud or anything. [09:55.960 --> 10:01.440] It was just simply about distributing these parts and software and stuff, none of which was illegal at the time. [10:01.560 --> 10:03.360] I had done that at those meetings. [10:03.640 --> 10:08.120] But a new federal statute had been enacted just a few weeks before I was charged with it. [10:08.220 --> 10:11.040] And we can talk about that, the hackers and printers prison thing later. [10:11.160 --> 10:19.170] But the bottom line is, I haven't been to a 2600 meeting in Philadelphia since about five years after I started it. [10:19.280 --> 10:21.580] I showed up to it after my whole prison experience. [10:21.840 --> 10:24.940] And sure enough, that federal informant was there. [10:25.100 --> 10:27.700] And I guess I can say his name, Paul Bergsmann. [10:28.340 --> 10:28.670] Paul Bergsmann. [10:28.670 --> 10:29.200] Is he in the crowd? [10:29.380 --> 10:29.790] Paul Bergsmann. [10:29.900 --> 10:30.520] Raise your hand, Paul. [10:30.660 --> 10:30.760] There he is. [10:30.900 --> 10:31.100] Okay. [10:31.290 --> 10:31.720] How you doing? [10:31.960 --> 10:32.600] Go get him. [10:32.620 --> 10:33.280] What's your hotel room? [10:34.020 --> 10:34.740] You bastard. [10:35.740 --> 10:40.460] Anyway, I'm a firm believer of not... This is getting a little far afield. [10:40.500 --> 10:44.460] I'm a firm believer of not naming other individuals in any kind of a case. [10:44.670 --> 10:47.600] It doesn't really help the situation. [10:47.960 --> 10:52.080] And I take responsibility for your own actions and let the chips fall where they're going to fall. [10:52.080 --> 10:55.100] Because the government relies on... This is a tirade. [10:55.280 --> 10:57.660] The government relies on people ratting each other out. [10:57.800 --> 11:03.060] And if you just say, talk to my lawyer, everybody would have a much easier time. [11:03.220 --> 11:11.360] But anyway, back to the 2600 meetings, the Bell Atlantic systems engineers that showed up really gave some very technical presentations. [11:11.360 --> 11:17.840] We had engineers from local insurance companies talking about their networks and so forth. [11:17.960 --> 11:20.040] And it was really like a seminar kind of thing. [11:20.240 --> 11:33.380] And I haven't been to many meetings outside of Philly and New York, but it's just so much knowledge gets spread around in a casual way that it's not going to happen in any other kind of setting. [11:33.540 --> 11:35.440] And it just sort of takes a life on of its own. [11:36.960 --> 11:37.420] Okay. [11:37.720 --> 11:41.180] Lexicon from New York City, formerly from North Carolina. [11:46.960 --> 11:58.640] I started reading the magazine in about, I guess, mid-90s and listening to the radio show and thinking it would be great if there was a 2600 meeting near me. [11:59.000 --> 12:04.520] And I was down in Wilmington, North Carolina, which is a fairly small beach community. [12:04.520 --> 12:06.980] And there was not a 2600 meeting. [12:07.600 --> 12:21.440] And so I put up website, nc2600.org, and said, anybody in North Carolina who wants to do something with 2600, contact me. [12:21.600 --> 12:22.840] And I started hanging out on RC. [12:23.200 --> 12:38.840] And now we have, I'm up here in New York now, but we have last month, 22 people showed up in Raleigh for the meeting, which is a pretty good number for meeting way out of New York City and Philadelphia, just a small place in the south. [12:39.060 --> 12:51.280] So we just kind of kept things snowballing by having point of presence kind of thing where we're on IRC and we're on the web and you can find people and talk to people and ask questions. [12:51.560 --> 12:53.720] And before you go to the meeting, find out what it's about. [12:54.540 --> 13:06.300] And hitting the magazines with flyers to get people to, you know, going to Barnes and Noble, stick a half page flyer in the magazine that says, this is where the local meeting is, we're actually here, come to it. [13:07.060 --> 13:10.340] And just building that sort of thing to build bigger and bigger meetings. [13:10.340 --> 13:15.200] So more people who would be interested in it know that it's there. [13:15.440 --> 13:18.760] And so that's mostly what we've been doing. [13:19.100 --> 13:27.820] And then in last year, we put together CarolinaCon, which is a conference that's like a super meeting for all the meetings in North Carolina. [13:28.000 --> 13:31.700] And we had people come from all over the place to show up to that. [13:31.820 --> 13:35.520] And it's like a kind of mini HOPE just for our state putting it together. [13:35.780 --> 13:36.940] And that was a lot of fun. [13:36.980 --> 13:37.740] So we did it again. [13:38.040 --> 13:42.540] And we'll probably do CarolinaCon three next June. [13:44.200 --> 13:44.640] So... [13:44.640 --> 13:45.080] That's it. [13:45.080 --> 13:45.300] Thank you. [13:49.920 --> 13:53.740] As I mentioned earlier, I had a conversation with Rop over the winter. [13:54.020 --> 14:01.120] And I think it's very important for us to take a critical look at what it is we do and analyze just why it is we do these things. [14:01.260 --> 14:05.540] And it was a great discussion because we're pretty much tearing the meetings apart. [14:05.740 --> 14:06.940] Like, are they worthwhile? [14:07.220 --> 14:08.800] Is this something good or something bad? [14:08.940 --> 14:11.180] What's the... What are the negative things that come out of it? [14:11.280 --> 14:12.560] How do we make it something positive? [14:12.720 --> 14:16.580] And I'd like for Rop to make some of those points again, because they really are worth looking at. [14:17.540 --> 14:23.340] Well, to start off with, I haven't been to that many meetings, but I've been to some over the years. [14:23.740 --> 14:26.340] I'm here maybe once a year, months, every two years. [14:26.780 --> 14:31.080] And I guess I've always been to at least one meeting when I was with you on Long Island. [14:32.600 --> 14:36.720] We've been to some of the first meetings in California, I think they were. [14:38.180 --> 14:39.220] Emmanuel, help me out here. [14:39.320 --> 14:41.740] We went to the San Francisco one in... [14:42.340 --> 14:42.700] San Francisco. [14:42.700 --> 14:43.340] In Marcadero. [14:43.600 --> 14:44.300] We went to the... [14:44.300 --> 14:47.120] In Marcadero Center, and then to Los Angeles, and to one in San Diego. [14:47.360 --> 14:49.840] In Los Angeles, I think we had two people show up. [14:49.980 --> 14:51.140] It was very small at the time. [14:51.690 --> 14:52.000] Yeah. [14:52.680 --> 14:55.680] At least in one of those cities, it was the very first meeting, I think. [14:55.880 --> 15:03.040] So we... I was there for the California trip, and then through the years, went to some meetings in New York. [15:03.260 --> 15:07.460] And to be totally honest, I can't stand shopping malls. [15:07.560 --> 15:09.120] So that's a big part of... [15:09.590 --> 15:13.360] A totally big part of me hating the meetings, but I really don't like them. [15:13.500 --> 15:14.180] They're not my thing. [15:15.020 --> 15:16.700] I'm... That's just me personally. [15:16.960 --> 15:18.820] I'm not sure that that matters to anybody else. [15:19.000 --> 15:23.440] But I also think shopping malls are a really bad place for doing stuff like this. [15:23.600 --> 15:23.900] It's... [15:23.900 --> 15:28.880] It makes the community look like a bunch of geeks hanging out at some... [15:29.600 --> 15:30.340] I don't know. [15:30.600 --> 15:32.740] It just... To me, it doesn't feel right. [15:32.740 --> 15:36.880] But that's maybe just me, but it just feels very silly and stupid. [15:38.040 --> 15:46.560] Even if good things are happening there, even if the perfect people got together and had the perfect conversations, I would still feel sort of, what am I doing here? [15:46.640 --> 15:47.860] This is artificial light. [15:47.980 --> 15:52.200] I'm in some stupid... There's a security guard passing by every 30 seconds. [15:52.340 --> 15:53.160] Dude, that's America. [15:55.960 --> 15:57.220] No, not necessarily. [15:57.460 --> 16:00.260] I don't see a security guard passing by me here every 30 seconds. [16:01.520 --> 16:02.000] So... [16:02.000 --> 16:03.140] That's big Frank. [16:03.280 --> 16:03.520] There are... [16:07.220 --> 16:08.920] You are under surveillance. [16:09.540 --> 16:10.320] Yeah, I know. [16:10.560 --> 16:11.360] We're watching. [16:12.280 --> 16:13.280] How many cameras are out there? [16:13.280 --> 16:23.060] And it's part of that... I've been... When I was hanging around on bulletin boards, in the 80s, and was trying to get to meet people, and there was nothing there. [16:23.200 --> 16:24.100] There were no structures. [16:24.300 --> 16:24.960] There was nothing there. [16:25.140 --> 16:31.840] It was important to meet some place in town, to use public places, to get in contact with people. [16:34.740 --> 16:37.000] I'm not so sure it's that useful now. [16:37.260 --> 16:43.020] I'm not so sure that it wouldn't be more useful if there was more structure to it. [16:43.240 --> 16:47.800] If there... If it was less of a... How shall I say it? [16:48.300 --> 16:55.900] Just... I'm trying to find the the proper English terms for it, but... An agenda, perhaps? [16:56.620 --> 17:00.200] Well, an agenda would be nice, but it's not always necessary. [17:00.420 --> 17:09.060] But more of a sense of being in your own space, and not so much a sense of being a bunch of kids hanging around and being obnoxious. [17:09.700 --> 17:12.580] Even because that's not what we are. [17:13.140 --> 17:16.660] We are not a bunch of kids hanging around being obnoxious, so why pretend? [17:17.120 --> 17:19.210] Why... Maybe that's just me getting older. [17:19.360 --> 17:26.420] Maybe that's just me being... I don't know if that's just the generational shift, or if part of that is the form that is chosen. [17:27.080 --> 17:33.840] And the question for me is, and to what extent does the form we choose define who we are? [17:34.500 --> 17:38.560] Does it make us a bunch of obnoxious kids because we choose the form of being obnoxious kids? [17:39.040 --> 17:44.200] Well, let's analyze this and see where the problem is, because I can see both sides of this issue. [17:44.500 --> 17:46.620] First question, quick question to the audience. [17:47.040 --> 17:52.260] Be honest, if you have never attended a 2600 meeting, please quickly show your hands. [17:53.240 --> 17:56.020] Okay, that's at least a quarter of this audience. [17:56.320 --> 17:59.820] Let me describe a 2600 meeting as it occurs in New York. [18:00.160 --> 18:02.820] We meet in the atrium of the City Corp Center. [18:03.100 --> 18:03.900] City group center. [18:04.180 --> 18:06.100] They changed the name, a city group center. [18:06.600 --> 18:07.120] Wow. [18:07.970 --> 18:08.880] Get with it, Jim. [18:10.640 --> 18:12.460] It's not quite a shopping mall. [18:12.540 --> 18:13.970] There are shops around, but not too many. [18:14.140 --> 18:16.620] It's more like a food court, but even that's inaccurate. [18:16.900 --> 18:20.300] There's about 30 tables, 120, 200 chairs. [18:21.230 --> 18:25.420] And there is not what you would call a structure to a 2600 meeting. [18:25.960 --> 18:34.360] People go, sit down, bring out a laptop perhaps, bring out some other piece of equipment, a UNIX book, whatever, sit there. [18:34.800 --> 18:39.080] And there's no necessary identifying tag on anyone. [18:39.340 --> 18:44.140] So if you've never been to one, you don't exactly spot the meeting too easily. [18:44.520 --> 18:46.230] This may or may not be a good thing. [18:46.680 --> 18:49.340] But also, as I said, there is no agenda. [18:49.780 --> 18:56.160] There's no scheduled speaker usually, despite the rare example given by Bernie S. [18:56.540 --> 19:01.470] There's no set topics of discussion that have been posted on IRC or website. [19:01.820 --> 19:03.420] It just exists. [19:03.730 --> 19:07.400] People know that it's in a given location on a given date for a given time. [19:07.700 --> 19:08.380] That's it. [19:08.500 --> 19:11.470] And what you get out of it is what you make of it. [19:11.880 --> 19:18.340] Ideally, you go, you find somebody with an interesting piece of equipment in front of them or an interesting book, and you get into a conversation. [19:18.900 --> 19:23.820] This is not good for the shy, retiring type, which a lot of geeks, frankly, are. [19:24.800 --> 19:30.180] So, you know, there's something to be said for trying to make it into a more organized activity. [19:30.600 --> 19:34.380] I think maybe it's, it's a bit of a misnomer to call them meetings even. [19:34.800 --> 19:36.000] They're more like gatherings. [19:36.470 --> 19:38.580] Because as Jim said, there are no real agendas. [19:38.680 --> 19:41.300] I know there are some meetings that do try to have agendas and that's fine. [19:41.800 --> 19:54.580] But when we first started the meetings, it was basically, we want to get people away from computers and out of their houses so that they actually meet each other and do something a bit social and, you know, get some oxygen. [19:54.800 --> 19:56.210] It would be kind of a nice thing. [19:57.720 --> 20:00.040] And that's sort of what we've tried to maintain. [20:00.230 --> 20:03.620] But yeah, it can be kind of disorganized. [20:03.710 --> 20:04.500] It can be kind of chaotic. [20:04.760 --> 20:06.340] And I'm not sure if that's a good thing or a bad thing. [20:06.500 --> 20:14.260] Well, the thing I witnessed at the meetings that I was at is also there's not one group, but there's like four or five. [20:14.700 --> 20:21.360] And out of these four or five groups, two or three hate each other, or try to run away from each other. [20:26.290 --> 20:27.890] Are you applauding the hatred? [20:28.130 --> 20:29.170] Or what exactly are you applauding? [20:30.250 --> 20:33.330] You get people following other people around. [20:33.510 --> 20:36.650] You get these crazy, or at least that's what I've observed. [20:36.650 --> 20:41.670] You get crazy sort of... Smoke less ash. [20:44.230 --> 20:45.530] I don't smoke any. [20:49.090 --> 21:02.190] No, but there's lots of kids that want to learn something about computer security, or something about hacking, running around asking anybody that might know, can you teach me how to hack, or can you do this, or... [21:02.190 --> 21:06.470] And there's this... There's no... [21:09.270 --> 21:11.250] There's no structure to deal with this. [21:11.390 --> 21:13.810] So people keep being pushed away. [21:14.030 --> 21:14.870] So there's this... [21:14.870 --> 21:17.830] And that leads to social awkwardness. [21:17.870 --> 21:28.970] And it leads to people not getting answers, and not being told, well, maybe you can be taught how to do computer security things, but maybe you should learn some other things as well. [21:28.970 --> 21:32.610] And then they end up hanging around with some other kids that have already learned a little bit. [21:33.130 --> 21:36.330] So does this not breed script kiddies? [21:36.470 --> 21:38.290] Does this not... I mean, if there's... [21:38.290 --> 21:52.530] If you're going to get all these people together, and then you're not going to have the sort of organizedness about you to tell them, or to receive them in some kind of structure where you tell them, well, this is who we are, or this is what we'd like to be, [21:53.550 --> 21:55.330] then what are we? [21:55.330 --> 21:55.950] What is that? [21:55.950 --> 21:58.870] That's a hierarchy, and a lot of people resent hierarchies. [21:59.330 --> 22:05.070] So it's kind of a catch-22, because yeah, then you have to be the person that knows the answers, and... [22:05.070 --> 22:09.990] And people keep telling me that's, but then we would be excluding people, or... [22:09.990 --> 22:11.930] But now you're also excluding people. [22:12.050 --> 22:15.710] You're excluding the people that can't deal with that anymore, and that just leave because it's stupid. [22:17.030 --> 22:18.510] That's also being exclusive. [22:19.030 --> 22:19.690] I hear you. [22:27.960 --> 22:28.800] You just want me? [22:31.080 --> 22:38.280] I tend to agree to a certain extent that some of the meetings can take on an air of... [22:42.080 --> 22:42.480] Just... [22:42.900 --> 22:43.500] I'm sorry? [22:45.560 --> 22:46.240] Didn't hear that. [22:46.760 --> 22:56.520] You take an air of immaturity, but you know, sometimes you're dealing with a lot of young people, too, and who haven't, who haven't, you know... [22:56.520 --> 23:09.500] But especially if you're dealing with young people, you can either present yourself and sort of, sort of give them a structure to grow up in, or you can, you can create this, this sort of unhealthy cult of personality thing. [23:09.660 --> 23:11.560] You can create people running after other people. [23:13.300 --> 23:17.000] There's, there's different ways of dealing with lots of young people showing up. [23:17.860 --> 23:22.180] Yeah, and that's, that's what we try to avoid is to create cult of personality and clicks and things like that. [23:22.420 --> 23:26.400] It's, it's difficult because yeah, you do have warring factions and stupidity like that. [23:26.500 --> 23:30.260] And when we hear about that shit, we just, we, we delist the meeting because we're not interested in that. [23:30.380 --> 23:34.140] We're interested in people meeting each other and working it out. [23:34.220 --> 23:37.460] And if you're too immature to do that, you really shouldn't be meeting. [23:37.700 --> 23:38.880] I mean, I agree with that totally. [23:39.180 --> 23:48.860] This may be more an American thing than, than, than globally, because there's meetings that are held around the world, uh, 2600 gatherings. [23:49.240 --> 23:53.820] And we haven't really heard much of that sort of stuff going on in, in these other cities. [23:53.920 --> 23:56.240] And I can name some of the other cities like Barcelona, Moscow. [23:56.660 --> 23:57.900] I've been to the meeting in London. [23:58.080 --> 24:06.540] I've been to the meeting in Prague and these guys are really, um, you know, mature and well-behaved and they're, they're talking about various things and listening to each other. [24:07.180 --> 24:13.920] And I'm not saying they don't do that here because I've seen many good meetings here, but I have seen a lot of stupidity and it's, yeah, we're a product of our culture, I think. [24:14.120 --> 24:15.240] And that's, that's a sad thing. [24:15.340 --> 24:17.840] I just don't know if we have the power to change that ourselves. [24:19.220 --> 24:20.200] I think you do. [24:20.360 --> 24:28.080] I think you just have to accept that, that, that the structure, the places, the venues of the meetings themselves, all of that defines what the meetings are. [24:29.280 --> 24:44.240] And if you're not willing to make changes or if you're not willing to have different kinds of meetings, or if you're not willing to have meetings in different places or experiment with creating some kind of structure that, that gives some kind of message to the new people that arrive I mean, [24:44.360 --> 24:53.200] even if you have to type out three sheets, three sheets of paper and just give it to people or whatever, if you're not willing to have any kind of structure, you just let people swim. [24:53.600 --> 24:54.500] It's like, oh, you're here. [24:54.640 --> 24:55.240] Well, we don't care. [24:55.860 --> 24:56.640] We do have the meeting guidelines. [24:57.620 --> 25:02.980] We've got the meeting guidelines that tell, you know, what's acceptable, what's not acceptable, what people should expect. [25:02.980 --> 25:08.460] Actually, I attempted that once in, I guess it was around 1994. [25:09.300 --> 25:25.780] Passed out sort of a sheet of paper with guidelines and the structure of what, you know, the kind of topics that would be, might be more interesting to discuss and appropriate behavior, rules of the, at the 30th Street Station, as far as what they were allowed to do. [25:25.780 --> 25:30.520] Ironically, one of the rules is, you can't pass out any hand bills. [25:31.540 --> 25:41.060] So the Amtrak Federal Police descended on us for doing just that, even though these are, I was handing out these to people I knew. [25:41.200 --> 25:42.680] They weren't being handed out to strangers. [25:43.220 --> 25:45.140] So they tried to kick us out of the place. [25:45.440 --> 25:55.880] And so then I went to the local city paper and said, you know, and they made a story about it saying, you know, you know, these are, these are people that are showing up to, to patronize some of the new businesses at the station. [25:56.040 --> 26:01.860] Because Philadelphia just put all these, like, shops and coffee shops and bookstores and stuff at the train station. [26:03.200 --> 26:16.220] And so, that was around the time that a friend of mine had brought to my attention some potential surveillance of the 2600 meeting by other law enforcement agencies, namely the Secret Service. [26:16.760 --> 26:26.740] And we sort of wondered, like, who are these guys standing around at the meetings in suits or just looking at us, but not part of the meeting kind of thing. [26:27.080 --> 26:36.540] So, through one way or another, I came into possession of some surveillance photographs of some of these Secret Service undercover agents who we believed were. [26:36.640 --> 26:37.200] We weren't sure. [26:37.880 --> 26:39.240] And I took them to the next meeting. [26:39.240 --> 26:50.960] Well, the local TV, Fox TV, Fox Television affiliate in Philadelphia had read the newspaper article about a month before about us being harassed at the meeting. [26:51.020 --> 26:53.260] And they showed up to do a story with cameras. [26:53.400 --> 26:58.940] It just so happened that I had brought pictures of these Secret Service agents to that meeting and had taped them on the wall. [26:59.140 --> 27:06.880] And was pointing them out to attendees saying, if you see these guys, they are more than likely law enforcement and more than likely Secret Service. [27:06.880 --> 27:08.080] Turns out I was right. [27:09.180 --> 27:24.360] Because about a year later, when my federal case started, I got a severe vituperation by two Secret Service agents for having made public their faces on the local television news. [27:24.500 --> 27:26.100] Because they were operating undercover. [27:26.400 --> 27:28.480] And apparently not very well. [27:30.180 --> 27:32.560] They were also picking their noses, weren't they? [27:32.560 --> 27:32.900] Oh, yeah. [27:33.020 --> 27:39.480] It sort of added to the drama that these pictures had them picking their noses and looking unprofessional. [27:40.440 --> 27:44.840] And they told me, point blank, that they took a lot of heat for that. [27:45.040 --> 27:48.900] Not for picking their noses, I guess, but for just getting their covers blown on the evening news. [27:50.140 --> 27:51.020] They got even. [27:52.820 --> 27:58.800] But, you know, you've got to wonder about surveillance at meetings and federal informants and that sort of thing. [27:58.800 --> 28:02.060] But I just don't go to the meetings anymore in Philadelphia. [28:02.580 --> 28:04.120] But that's just my choice. [28:05.040 --> 28:08.220] I don't think there are good reasons for other people not to go. [28:08.340 --> 28:11.600] I just had a bad experience that had nothing to do with most of the crowd there. [28:12.940 --> 28:17.700] And I've gone to meetings in other parts of the country that weren't like that at all. [28:17.900 --> 28:19.700] So, I don't know. [28:19.700 --> 28:23.780] I don't think the kind of situations I ran into are going to be that common. [28:24.300 --> 28:25.360] But I hope not anyway. [28:26.200 --> 28:30.340] We generally get a lot of mail from people running the meetings that tell us various things that happened. [28:30.600 --> 28:31.500] Some of them are very detailed. [28:31.660 --> 28:34.540] They say where they went to eat afterwards and stuff we really don't need to know. [28:34.660 --> 28:36.020] But it's nice to hear it. [28:37.320 --> 28:41.300] And we always get lots of people wanting to start new meetings. [28:42.100 --> 28:43.040] Too many, in fact. [28:43.040 --> 28:46.340] People want to start meetings in small towns with 50 people. [28:46.580 --> 28:50.080] And it's great, but we just can't list every single place that wants to have a meeting. [28:51.060 --> 28:56.660] So, we pretty much say, you know, any food court on Friday evening, first Friday of the month, maybe there's a meeting there. [28:56.740 --> 28:59.400] And we'll list the biggest ones in the biggest cities. [28:59.480 --> 29:02.080] Otherwise, the whole magazine will be meeting listings. [29:03.440 --> 29:12.000] But I've heard lots of stories from people who have formed partnerships and companies and designed things based on people they have met at meetings. [29:13.060 --> 29:16.080] And I have to say, I think the positive outweighs the negative. [29:16.280 --> 29:17.160] But I know there is negative. [29:17.320 --> 29:22.460] I know there is some out of control people that exist to disrupt meetings. [29:22.460 --> 29:23.440] I know that happens. [29:23.740 --> 29:28.300] I know there are plenty of narcs and feds and cops and things like that. [29:28.500 --> 29:30.380] It's one of the reasons we meet in public though. [29:30.660 --> 29:39.280] But on the other hand, I've got to say that I've met some really interesting people at 2600 meetings who've remained long-term friends. [29:39.460 --> 29:49.960] I mean, years and years that have, you know, we've been able to bring other contacts into each other's lives that have really enriched our lives tremendously with that kind of chemistry. [29:50.200 --> 29:56.120] And, you know, there's all kinds of avenues in my life that opened up in a positive standpoint from people that I've met at 2600 meetings. [29:56.420 --> 29:59.820] And it's really amazing that it worked out that way. [29:59.820 --> 30:03.780] And it scares the shit out of the feds too because we meet at the same time all around the world. [30:04.020 --> 30:07.200] And they can't possibly send people everywhere at once. [30:07.680 --> 30:10.460] And that's always been one of the magical things about the meetings. [30:10.660 --> 30:15.500] It's just, they think we're so well organized that we have chapters all over the place. [30:15.540 --> 30:19.860] And they don't realize it's just really disorganized, a bunch of people just meeting in malls and food courts. [30:20.280 --> 30:24.400] Now, on the topic of malls and food courts, yeah, you know, I don't really like those places either. [30:24.580 --> 30:28.020] But there aren't that many places that you can meet other than street corners. [30:28.020 --> 30:32.840] I mean, you can go to like a meeting place with chairs and desks and things like that. [30:32.960 --> 30:35.700] But I don't know if that's the atmosphere most people are looking for. [30:35.800 --> 30:36.380] Maybe it is. [30:36.640 --> 30:41.680] I also don't want to exclude people by having meetings in bars and things like that, which some people like to do. [30:41.840 --> 30:43.180] But you are excluding people. [30:43.500 --> 30:45.180] Well, they're excluding themselves by not coming. [30:45.280 --> 30:48.260] But nobody is forbidden from coming to meetings. [30:48.540 --> 30:49.940] I'm not sure that's still the case. [30:49.940 --> 30:58.220] But when I was at the New York 2600 meetings, there was always two or three people that were very, very obvious criminal elements. [30:58.680 --> 31:03.940] That were, in my mind, had nothing to do with hacking, the spirit of hacking or anything. [31:04.860 --> 31:05.680] They're just... [31:05.680 --> 31:07.120] And that continues to this day. [31:07.280 --> 31:09.080] But the thing is, we can't exclude those people. [31:09.220 --> 31:11.760] We can teach people to be smart and... [31:11.760 --> 31:12.200] Why not? [31:12.520 --> 31:13.960] Because we're in a public place. [31:14.060 --> 31:14.820] Yes, a public place. [31:15.020 --> 31:15.180] I know. [31:15.360 --> 31:17.360] But isn't that then a stupid move? [31:18.040 --> 31:18.400] If we... [31:18.400 --> 31:18.520] If we... [31:18.520 --> 31:19.040] I'm just wondering. [31:19.200 --> 31:20.180] I'm just publicly wondering. [31:20.340 --> 31:20.860] I don't know. [31:20.900 --> 31:22.340] I don't know if I have the answer. [31:22.700 --> 31:23.380] I'm just... [31:24.220 --> 31:29.100] I don't want to necessarily share my knowledge with people. [31:30.020 --> 31:34.980] I don't want to have to run away from a conversation because it's joined by people that I know to be criminals. [31:35.000 --> 31:35.620] Well, here's the thing. [31:35.620 --> 31:51.220] that I know to have no regards whatsoever for any of the ideological or social things that I come from and just want to turn around and sell whatever I tell them or use it to rip somebody off or hurt somebody or... [31:51.220 --> 31:52.920] And that bothers me. [31:53.020 --> 32:02.480] And if we as a community cannot somehow get rid of two or three people that have nothing in common with us. [32:02.800 --> 32:04.240] I mean, we might as well... [32:04.240 --> 32:06.400] We try to get rid of the Feds. [32:06.520 --> 32:08.000] We try to get rid of the Secret Service. [32:08.160 --> 32:09.060] We try to make fun of them. [32:09.140 --> 32:09.600] We try to... [32:09.600 --> 32:11.540] We don't try to get rid of them from the meetings. [32:11.680 --> 32:14.940] In fact, if they're at the meetings, we talk to them and ask them lots of questions. [32:15.180 --> 32:16.840] And they don't like that, but we do it anyway. [32:17.880 --> 32:18.280] And it's historically... [32:18.280 --> 32:27.640] No, but it's like you have this whole thing going with the narcs, the Feds, the cops, but at the same time, you're giving them exactly what they want. [32:27.640 --> 32:33.360] You're giving them an atmosphere in which you can be portrayed as hanging out with a bunch of criminals. [32:34.020 --> 32:39.580] You're giving them the context. [32:40.060 --> 32:43.440] Well, it also gives them the impression that we have nothing to hide. [32:43.820 --> 32:44.480] All right? [32:44.600 --> 32:46.100] We're willing to talk to anybody. [32:46.940 --> 32:48.460] We're willing to talk to the Feds. [32:48.640 --> 32:50.280] We're willing to talk to the criminals. [32:50.540 --> 32:52.160] We have nothing to hide. [32:52.340 --> 32:54.340] What we have is information. [32:56.000 --> 32:56.800] Information is... [32:57.660 --> 33:00.740] The gist of information is all in how it's used. [33:00.920 --> 33:01.300] All right? [33:01.380 --> 33:02.680] You can use it for good or evil. [33:02.900 --> 33:03.380] All right? [33:03.500 --> 33:06.460] And that is what makes the information good or evil unto itself. [33:08.620 --> 33:11.240] All right, if you have questions or anything, there's two microphones. [33:11.500 --> 33:12.160] Oh boy, look at that. [33:12.340 --> 33:20.600] Oh, before the questions, I just want to say something on what Emmanuel said about getting letters from people who have formed companies and such. [33:20.600 --> 33:29.140] If you meet someone at a 2600 meeting and form the next Google or Microsoft, please consider underwriting the next HOPE conference. [33:29.300 --> 33:31.980] It's only about six digits worth of advertising. [33:32.220 --> 33:33.460] It could be worth a fortune to you. [33:34.460 --> 33:35.900] Okay, let's start with you. [33:36.600 --> 33:38.280] All right, I have a lot of relevant things to say. [33:38.360 --> 33:39.040] I'll try to be quick though. [33:39.220 --> 33:44.820] But I'm 545 or Logic, just representing Phoenix meetings there. [33:45.680 --> 33:48.580] We don't meet at a food court. [33:48.700 --> 33:50.280] We actually meet at an underground coffee shop. [33:50.420 --> 33:51.380] It's called the Counter Culture Cafe. [33:52.680 --> 33:54.260] We have pretty good attendance. [33:54.920 --> 33:57.860] Like the meeting before last month, there was about 40 people that showed up. [33:58.760 --> 34:00.360] We have had feds come. [34:00.460 --> 34:01.300] We've had the FBI come. [34:01.460 --> 34:03.320] We've asked them questions even. [34:03.540 --> 34:04.580] Found out some interesting stuff. [34:06.060 --> 34:06.760] What else? [34:07.360 --> 34:15.220] And as far as suggestions, or just another point of view, the most successful thing that we've had is that there is no elitism. [34:15.420 --> 34:16.820] There is no infighting. [34:16.940 --> 34:19.940] And we prioritize to keep that out. [34:20.220 --> 34:22.900] And also, as far as clicks and everything, we avoid that. [34:23.400 --> 34:24.380] We make sure... [34:24.380 --> 34:24.680] How do you do that? [34:25.020 --> 34:26.140] We talk to everybody. [34:26.280 --> 34:27.620] We make sure to include everybody. [34:28.060 --> 34:32.920] If somebody is kind of sitting around, but we know that they're part of the meeting, we'll engage them in conversation. [34:33.180 --> 34:34.220] We'll make sure... [34:34.220 --> 34:35.620] We'll find out what their interests are. [34:35.620 --> 34:36.360] We'll try to... [34:36.360 --> 34:38.840] Because we're all so diverse, which is also helpful, too. [34:39.140 --> 34:40.260] We all have stuff to share. [34:41.120 --> 34:46.760] Because, yeah, nobody really likes somebody that says they know a lot, but can't share it intelligibly, so... [34:47.140 --> 34:47.540] Great. [34:47.760 --> 34:47.900] Cool. [34:48.200 --> 34:49.240] Sounds like you have a good meeting. [34:52.820 --> 34:56.060] The first person at the second microphone, so that nobody gets left out. [34:57.220 --> 34:57.620] Okay. [34:58.060 --> 34:58.420] Go ahead. [34:59.180 --> 34:59.820] It's not working. [35:01.860 --> 35:02.440] It's on. [35:02.720 --> 35:03.600] Oh, is that Rebel? [35:03.800 --> 35:04.340] It's not on. [35:04.700 --> 35:05.560] Oh, hi, Rebel. [35:06.440 --> 35:07.520] I couldn't see... [35:07.520 --> 35:08.480] I wouldn't have said that otherwise. [35:08.640 --> 35:08.740] Okay. [35:08.780 --> 35:09.000] Go ahead. [35:09.860 --> 35:10.360] All right. [35:10.420 --> 35:10.540] Yeah. [35:10.780 --> 35:12.400] I started going to the meetings at... [35:12.400 --> 35:15.840] I guess it was 92, the first meeting. [35:18.180 --> 35:19.300] Speak into the microphone. [35:21.140 --> 35:32.440] What I like about the meetings is that if you want to know something like how things work, like if your computer's broken or something's not working, you ask somebody at the 2600 meetings first. [35:32.800 --> 35:36.700] You don't go to the store and ask them because they'll tend to give you the runaround. [35:37.080 --> 35:40.100] Hackers tend to know how things work and they can give you details... [35:40.100 --> 35:40.760] Great text report. [35:43.250 --> 35:43.730] All right. [35:43.910 --> 35:45.350] But it's not only that, but it's... [35:45.350 --> 35:46.730] They can explain to you. [35:46.830 --> 35:48.130] They can give you analogies. [35:48.210 --> 35:50.670] They can explain to you how things work in a way you can understand. [35:50.810 --> 35:51.990] That's what I like about the meetings. [35:52.270 --> 35:55.470] And I think that the meetings, you know, that's what the meetings are for. [35:56.790 --> 36:01.010] To get together and to ask people, you know, if something's not working and, you know... [36:01.990 --> 36:04.110] And Rebel has been coming to the New York City meetings... [36:04.110 --> 36:05.310] Since about 1992. [36:07.170 --> 36:07.870] Familiar face. [36:08.050 --> 36:14.390] And, you know, being that things don't work anymore like they used to, like in the early 90s, like, you know... [36:14.390 --> 36:17.610] Like, when I first started coming to the meetings, a lot of... [36:17.610 --> 36:18.530] I would, you know... [36:18.530 --> 36:21.310] I remember, you know, Phiber Optik would, you know... [36:21.310 --> 36:24.530] I would tell people how things work about telephones and... [36:24.530 --> 36:28.090] And I just shared knowledge and it was just a lot of information. [36:28.270 --> 36:32.990] But now that the things that used to work then don't work now, you know... [36:32.990 --> 36:34.990] But there's still a lot of things to talk about, I guess. [36:36.170 --> 36:40.590] Well, I mean, it's technical, but if you're not that technical, I guess it's good. [36:42.330 --> 36:42.730] So... [36:42.730 --> 36:43.070] Okay. [36:43.210 --> 36:43.470] Thank you. [36:43.850 --> 36:44.250] Next. [36:44.770 --> 36:45.330] Good job. [36:48.920 --> 36:49.700] Hi, guys. [36:49.900 --> 36:50.300] How's it going? [36:50.320 --> 36:50.500] Hey. [36:51.060 --> 36:53.560] I want to tell you my favorite things about 2600 meetings. [36:54.680 --> 37:00.420] One of my favorite things is that almost all of the cool people I've ever met in my entire life, I met at 2600 meetings. [37:00.640 --> 37:02.260] So, I have to say thank you for that. [37:02.460 --> 37:03.100] You poor thing. [37:08.440 --> 37:14.540] I have to say that some of the meetings out there are really, really cool meetings. [37:15.000 --> 37:17.660] We used to do a meeting in Boulder and it was amazing. [37:17.800 --> 37:20.780] We'd go on field trips and projects together. [37:20.920 --> 37:25.200] Almost everyone, every time someone would bring something that they wanted to figure out or, oh, I have this book. [37:25.200 --> 37:25.540] It's cool. [37:25.680 --> 37:26.160] Check it out. [37:28.700 --> 37:29.880] I'm talking about 720. [37:30.800 --> 37:31.720] 720 represent. [37:34.120 --> 37:36.400] And I want to tell you what I think about them. [37:37.460 --> 37:42.260] I think meeting people that have common interests with you is really awesome. [37:42.440 --> 37:52.100] And in fact, everywhere I go, not just 2600 meetings, every conference I go to, every meeting and not in the United States I go to, I get to meet people like that and I like them. [37:53.080 --> 37:55.340] So, it's just another avenue that you can do that. [37:55.460 --> 38:00.720] But in these other places, we get to be a little more productive than we can be at 2600 meetings. [38:01.380 --> 38:04.880] Obviously, it's hard to get some kind of project done if you're in a mall. [38:08.140 --> 38:13.140] So, my favorite people that I've met through places like this are people who actually work on projects. [38:16.660 --> 38:22.160] 720, my meeting in Boulder, that's the area code, that's our little slang term for it, was really fun. [38:22.340 --> 38:22.960] And it died. [38:23.420 --> 38:23.740] It ended. [38:23.900 --> 38:25.800] There's no more 720 meetings. [38:25.880 --> 38:29.800] There hasn't been for about two years, three years since I moved here. [38:29.800 --> 38:35.180] And so, it takes somebody who's really in charge of a meeting to really make sure it works out. [38:35.400 --> 38:39.040] We don't have any kind of national infrastructure to rely on. [38:39.240 --> 38:39.500] Right? [38:39.640 --> 38:47.400] We don't have any kind of organization to give us resources to do projects, to make sure that the meetings continue even if somebody moves away. [38:47.840 --> 38:49.600] What kind of resources do you think would work? [38:49.980 --> 38:51.440] Well, there's all kinds of resources. [38:51.800 --> 38:53.880] There's friends in the press. [38:54.200 --> 38:54.280] Right? [38:54.380 --> 38:56.240] I'm quoting Rop from his earlier talk. [38:56.740 --> 38:59.020] Now, there's money, of course. [38:59.020 --> 39:00.460] Money Makes the World go around. [39:00.700 --> 39:06.080] If we had, you know, some way to get equipment or get whatever, we could work on cool projects, whatever. [39:07.160 --> 39:16.280] It's cool that the meetings are all on the same Friday everywhere around the world, but we are just a couple of guys sitting around and just doing a couple things. [39:16.560 --> 39:21.280] If we really wanted to have a political impact anywhere, we can't do that. [39:21.980 --> 39:26.060] Because we're just a couple of guys sitting around different places who don't really communicate to each other. [39:28.380 --> 39:33.260] I think there are other ways to get the good things that come out of 2600 meetings. [39:33.540 --> 39:44.760] If we had a space, for example, the way they do in Germany, to work on things, to do projects, to invite people in, to show them our space, we don't have to worry about feds anymore. [39:44.760 --> 39:50.680] And we can get respect from the press and the public by doing what we do instead of hanging out with criminals. [39:52.240 --> 39:53.700] We can invite the criminals in. [39:53.780 --> 39:54.860] We can invite the feds in. [39:54.940 --> 39:55.840] We can invite everyone in. [39:55.960 --> 39:57.200] And they're on our space. [39:57.380 --> 39:58.120] They're on our turf. [39:58.140 --> 40:00.960] We can tell them and ask them anything we want. [40:00.960 --> 40:05.720] And having a good face in the press is a better way to have nothing to hide. [40:10.380 --> 40:11.000] That's it. [40:22.190 --> 40:23.030] Back microphone. [40:23.610 --> 40:24.090] Yes. [40:24.150 --> 40:26.950] I'm not exactly sure how unique Chicago 2600 is. [40:27.110 --> 40:32.090] But we had the unique situation where we used to be meeting at Union Station downtown. [40:33.130 --> 40:37.770] And things got very hostile there with the people that we were actually having the meeting with. [40:37.770 --> 40:45.330] So, several of us had the opportunity to go to a Neighborhood Boys and Girls Club and basically essentially build their network infrastructure there. [40:45.670 --> 40:47.350] So, we moved all the meetings over there. [40:47.490 --> 40:53.490] We now have a space that we can basically meet from 7pm to about 5 or 6 in the morning typically on Friday nights. [40:54.030 --> 40:58.230] Also, we have, you know, monthly...we have on the meetings, you know, we have monthly talks. [40:58.550 --> 41:00.050] We do have structure to it. [41:00.570 --> 41:07.750] We actually, the first meeting...the first time that we actually had someone talk was actually a guy from Sourcefire talked about IDS system. [41:08.270 --> 41:10.610] And then after that, we even bothered to invite one of the feds. [41:10.730 --> 41:12.250] Of course, they didn't bother to come by. [41:12.390 --> 41:14.030] However, you know, we at least invited them. [41:14.190 --> 41:15.170] We let them know that they were there. [41:16.490 --> 41:23.550] I think that we've kind of made headway in all those areas you're saying that we're...that 2600 itself is lacking in the meetings. [41:24.530 --> 41:27.970] And, you know, I'd be happy to offer some input on some of the things that we have done. [41:29.990 --> 41:30.310] Okay. [41:30.310 --> 41:37.290] I mean, lastly, I'd have to say that, you know, we do average probably about 40 to 45 members every month too. [41:37.570 --> 41:44.770] So, if that does kind of help that we have brought back from like 12 people back at Union Station to about 40 to 50. [41:45.230 --> 41:46.250] So, it can happen. [41:53.140 --> 41:53.940] How you guys doing? [41:56.020 --> 42:01.820] I'm, though being a resident of New York, I haven't had a chance to get to 2600 meetings in New York City. [42:02.140 --> 42:03.940] And for that, I feel really bad. [42:04.700 --> 42:05.140] Great. [42:07.460 --> 42:07.900] Later. [42:08.820 --> 42:09.500] I'm shocked. [42:10.720 --> 42:12.460] But, I agree with Rop. [42:13.300 --> 42:13.500] Rop. [42:13.840 --> 42:14.280] Rop. [42:14.480 --> 42:16.280] With a P. With a P. Oh, I'm sorry. [42:16.440 --> 42:17.040] My apologies. [42:18.040 --> 42:18.460] I'll live. [42:20.280 --> 42:33.920] In that, you know, we do have to deal with those people, you know, as he puts it, the criminal elements who don't care at all about trying to further knowledge, trying to further people knowing more than they did before they went to America. [42:33.920 --> 42:40.620] Who just want to use the information to get credit card numbers and social security numbers and wreak havoc in that way. [42:41.180 --> 42:47.620] But, I also agree with Jim in that, you know, the information has to be put out there at 2600 meetings. [42:48.120 --> 42:53.520] And that, you know, someone comes in and starts talking about, you know, the ins and outs of like FreeBSD. [42:54.080 --> 43:00.460] One person will use that to, you know, use FreeBSD on their system and have an absolutely wonderful time using FreeBSD. [43:01.680 --> 43:08.660] And the other person is going to use it and find out exploits in it and start screwing around and messing it up for everyone. [43:08.980 --> 43:23.240] You know, I also agree with the lovely lady who was in front of me who said that, you know, if we had the kind of, you know, good press where we could go and say, you know what, these people did these things, they're not us. [43:23.240 --> 43:26.800] Because, honestly, as technology has evolved, so have we. [43:26.920 --> 43:28.760] We're no longer just simply hackers. [43:29.000 --> 43:34.640] Now we're network security enthusiasts, hardware enthusiasts, computer enthusiasts. [43:35.320 --> 43:40.920] So, you know, hackers has become a bit of an archaic term to describe who we are, you know. [43:41.460 --> 43:46.620] And as such, you know, the structure of the meetings does need to change, you know. [43:46.720 --> 43:57.620] I think that both at the meeting level and also at the highest level, you know, utilizing the website to be able to, you know, to better organize things at that level. [43:57.620 --> 44:01.640] Using the meetings themselves, you know, like when Bernie had Bell Atlantic people come. [44:01.880 --> 44:11.920] You know, not making that so structured and so organized that we start calling attention to ourselves, you know, before we're ready to say, we're not like this anymore. [44:12.840 --> 44:24.560] But, you know, in such a way that we invite people, people who are kind of interested in computers like I am, but never really had an arena or a forum to enter. [44:25.660 --> 44:26.020] Okay. [44:29.140 --> 44:29.860] All right. [44:30.120 --> 44:30.960] Thanks for your input. [44:32.240 --> 44:37.100] We do have a lot of people we'd like to get to, so try to make your comments as quickly as possible in the back now. [44:37.280 --> 44:37.520] Okay. [44:37.620 --> 44:39.040] I actually have a question. [44:40.540 --> 44:46.200] Suppose that a decision is made that you want to change the format of the meetings, that you want to make the meetings more restrictive. [44:46.780 --> 44:48.180] What is your ultimate recourse? [44:48.520 --> 44:51.460] I mean, the only thing you can really do is delist the meeting. [44:52.080 --> 44:56.800] And the second thing is, say that, you know, you decide to make these changes. [44:57.240 --> 44:59.060] Who's involved in the decision-making process? [44:59.320 --> 45:02.840] Is it just where, you know, you, Emmanuel, will say, well, these are the meeting guidelines. [45:02.960 --> 45:03.620] This is how it is. [45:03.700 --> 45:05.620] And if you don't like it, we're delisting the meeting. [45:05.780 --> 45:07.780] So I just wanted to answer that two-part question. [45:08.660 --> 45:12.460] Well, that's definitely a problem that we're facing all the time. [45:12.460 --> 45:17.200] We don't want to take too much control from a place that we're not even there. [45:17.420 --> 45:18.940] You know, we don't know what goes on in Sioux City. [45:20.400 --> 45:23.840] Maybe the way they structure meetings there works differently than it does in Boston. [45:24.580 --> 45:28.060] We like to leave it up to the individual group to do this and leave it as open as possible. [45:28.160 --> 45:34.180] But, I mean, I hear all the problems that can arise from having it to be too open to structure. [45:34.180 --> 45:41.800] I like to think that the meetings themselves are kind of like the first contact that you have with people from there. [45:42.040 --> 45:46.240] You can take the next step and say, okay, we want to do a project with you. [45:46.700 --> 45:49.940] Meet us at a space that we have and let's build something together. [45:50.500 --> 45:59.520] But I don't want to create something where there's a national controlling body someplace that's remote from the actual location where you guys are working. [45:59.720 --> 46:02.140] Because I think there's no substitute for you doing that yourselves. [46:02.740 --> 46:03.780] Do you have something else to come? [46:03.980 --> 46:04.200] Yeah. [46:04.720 --> 46:19.520] One of the best things that I think you can do if you have, like, more than eight people showing up at a 2600 meeting is to form a non-profit organization among the people that you want to hang out with in the group. [46:19.960 --> 46:22.740] And that's going to cost you about 200 bucks in most states. [46:23.180 --> 46:29.540] And you can use that to take donations and all sorts of things and get a lab space and all sorts... [46:29.540 --> 46:32.560] North Carolina 2600 just started a lab. [46:33.000 --> 46:38.000] And it's like a 12 by 12 room with a T1 line. [46:38.400 --> 46:39.520] And a huge mirror. [46:39.640 --> 46:40.600] And a huge mirror. [46:40.940 --> 46:47.720] But non-profit organizations are a great way to build your meeting and to build it in the direction that you want it to go. [46:47.720 --> 46:51.500] Because the 2600 meeting is a great starting place. [46:51.640 --> 46:52.580] It's a great nexus. [46:53.420 --> 46:59.600] But changing it to fit your needs doesn't necessarily work because it's no longer a 2600 meeting. [46:59.800 --> 47:05.860] But you can do second or third Friday of the month as your non-profit group or something else. [47:06.020 --> 47:11.800] Where you get the people that you want to get together together to do what you want to do. [47:11.800 --> 47:12.440] Okay. [47:13.120 --> 47:13.480] I'm Pam. [47:13.640 --> 47:14.200] I'm from Ann Arbor. [47:14.340 --> 47:16.400] I just wanted to point out that I think Rop has some good points. [47:16.520 --> 47:22.540] Because I think meeting in food courts in places that are so plastic and consumer oriented. [47:23.380 --> 47:27.480] And also sort of youth oriented in a certain way. [47:27.820 --> 47:29.560] Can be limiting and sort of... [47:29.560 --> 47:38.880] They limit the perception of us to the outside world as being the young kids that hang out at the mall. [47:38.880 --> 47:40.120] And blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. [47:40.320 --> 47:47.380] So I think moving them or allowing people to think of other places or encouraging them might be interesting. [47:47.720 --> 47:49.020] You do have that power. [47:49.180 --> 47:51.620] I mean the people at the meetings are the ones who pick the place. [47:51.740 --> 47:53.260] We don't tell people to meet in food courts. [47:53.500 --> 47:58.260] Yeah, but it's become sort of an unspoken rule, I think. [47:58.460 --> 47:58.660] Oh, not at all. [47:58.660 --> 47:59.260] Whether you want to... [47:59.260 --> 48:00.580] No, I disagree with that actually. [48:00.760 --> 48:03.220] I would love it if everybody moved out of the food courts totally. [48:03.700 --> 48:05.140] But we need to find better places. [48:05.140 --> 48:11.320] Well, then maybe a good thing might be for people to start having discussions and pass those ideas on to other groups. [48:11.420 --> 48:13.980] I think what the guys in Chicago did is perfect. [48:14.180 --> 48:16.140] I think that's exactly the solution to meet in a place like that. [48:16.140 --> 48:20.280] So maybe talking between meetings about different ways might be good. [48:20.640 --> 48:20.940] All right. [48:21.520 --> 48:22.120] Thank you. [48:22.320 --> 48:22.840] Now in the back. [48:24.060 --> 48:25.240] I want to quickly... [48:25.780 --> 48:26.440] Just a second. [48:28.420 --> 48:36.280] The guy before, this gentleman over here, said something about forming a separate meeting on the second or the third Friday of the month. [48:36.520 --> 48:39.460] And then hanging out with the people that you want to hang out with. [48:39.840 --> 48:44.480] Which to me sounds just like an institutionalized form of what I see happening here in New York. [48:44.660 --> 48:49.400] Which is groups of people running away and trying to shove away the other kids that keep showing up. [48:49.400 --> 48:50.580] Which is... [48:53.100 --> 48:54.500] I'm not saying that's wrong. [48:54.640 --> 48:57.380] I'm just saying it's a consequence of what's happening. [48:58.900 --> 49:01.560] And no, I'm not sure that means anything. [49:01.700 --> 49:03.960] I'm just saying it's an institutionalized form of the same thing. [49:04.200 --> 49:08.220] But it's no real different from saying these guys are criminal elements. [49:08.300 --> 49:09.160] Let's get away from them. [49:09.520 --> 49:10.640] We know what we're doing. [49:10.660 --> 49:11.280] They don't. [49:11.360 --> 49:13.180] Let's get the negative influence out. [49:13.180 --> 49:15.140] I mean, you meet people at a meeting. [49:15.340 --> 49:18.480] You're free to socialize with them further later on and do things. [49:18.700 --> 49:20.460] And that's what we provide. [49:20.580 --> 49:21.360] Not more than that. [49:21.360 --> 49:24.420] I know the German model where the Germans just have a club. [49:25.340 --> 49:29.500] Guys, can we have a little bit more quiet and keep the discussion a little bit more centralized? [49:30.760 --> 49:31.500] Excuse me. [49:31.900 --> 49:32.940] Shut up back there. [49:33.920 --> 49:34.340] Sorry. [49:35.720 --> 49:38.040] We only have about two minutes, so let's wrap it up back. [49:38.040 --> 49:41.100] The Germans have a club and the Germans are... [49:41.100 --> 49:45.720] It's not like anybody can just come by and take over the club or be part of the club. [49:45.920 --> 49:52.880] It's more of a system of vetting and a system of who we want to be part of the club and not be part of the club. [49:53.140 --> 50:04.180] And here, the same mechanism is needed and it's somehow implicitly created, which leads to lots of people running away from other people and lots of awkward scenes. [50:04.180 --> 50:11.480] I mean, I've been together with you running away from other parts of the meeting, jumping on subway trains, jumping turnstiles, getting... [50:11.480 --> 50:13.240] I mean, it's the same mechanism. [50:13.240 --> 50:16.580] It's just a more immature way of getting to it in some way. [50:16.620 --> 50:17.820] Those are the lunatics we're running away from. [50:18.020 --> 50:18.380] I know. [50:20.300 --> 50:21.080] That's my point. [50:21.300 --> 50:22.760] Let's try and get two more in. [50:22.980 --> 50:23.560] Who spoke last? [50:23.680 --> 50:24.420] First mic or second mic? [50:24.480 --> 50:25.460] Back microphone we should get to. [50:25.560 --> 50:25.840] Okay. [50:25.920 --> 50:28.080] Back microphone, then the front, and that's really all we have time for. [50:28.160 --> 50:28.420] I'm sorry. [50:30.000 --> 50:31.020] We can't bend time. [50:31.060 --> 50:31.340] My name is Charles. [50:31.340 --> 50:33.040] I'm one of the people who... [50:33.040 --> 50:33.900] Speak up please. [50:34.900 --> 50:35.720] My name is Charles. [50:36.120 --> 50:37.480] I'm one of the people who went to his first... [50:37.480 --> 50:38.200] Closer to the mic. [50:38.520 --> 50:39.940] Yeah, and everybody else, keep it down a little bit. [50:40.080 --> 50:40.340] Thank you. [50:40.440 --> 50:40.580] Sorry. [50:40.780 --> 50:41.740] My name is Charles. [50:42.220 --> 50:46.860] I'm one of the people who went to his first 2600 meeting last year after HOPE. [50:50.240 --> 50:52.120] I've been in the community for a while. [50:52.380 --> 50:53.920] It's just I avoided meetings. [50:54.320 --> 50:58.160] And so I decided that last year I'd finally go to a 2600 meeting. [50:59.080 --> 51:00.040] I did... [51:00.040 --> 51:01.960] I have to agree with you on that. [51:02.100 --> 51:03.440] I did feel a little bit uncomfortable. [51:04.660 --> 51:08.320] I'm okay with the meeting place, but it was more of... [51:08.320 --> 51:15.200] There was a kind of a class system going on hidden within the meeting. [51:15.720 --> 51:21.520] I mean, Manuel himself told me to get off my ass and walk around the room and try to meet people. [51:22.280 --> 51:22.720] So I did. [51:22.880 --> 51:30.980] And I still felt a little uncomfortable because I'm 32 years old and I still felt a little uncomfortable coming here for the first time. [51:32.720 --> 51:35.780] And some of the people just turned me off a little bit. [51:35.920 --> 51:37.000] Is there any way... [51:37.000 --> 51:39.400] I mean, I've read the guidelines first before showing up too. [51:39.620 --> 51:44.780] Is there any other way you could suggest we could make it a little bit more easier for newcomers? [51:45.600 --> 51:46.760] People coming for the first time? [51:46.820 --> 51:57.400] There's really, as far as I can see, no way to make it real easy for newcomers because in any social situation, familiarity breeds familiarity, unlike the saying goes. [51:57.720 --> 52:00.100] The more you show up, the more you're accepted. [52:00.100 --> 52:08.660] Even if you are off in a corner, just because people see your face more often, they'll get used to you and you're more accepted, you're more likely to get talked to. [52:08.880 --> 52:15.300] The only reason I talked to anybody in my first meeting was because I had something that Emmanuel wanted and vice versa. [52:15.980 --> 52:19.420] But other than that, just keep showing up. [52:19.600 --> 52:21.320] And sooner or later, it will work. [52:21.620 --> 52:24.240] I know that sounds like lame advice, but it's true. [52:24.640 --> 52:26.780] Okay, we only have time for one more and it's going to be you. [52:26.780 --> 52:30.460] Yeah, I've been going to 2600 meetings now since 1999. [52:32.060 --> 52:34.200] A lot of great, met a lot of great people there. [52:34.880 --> 52:36.280] A lot of great things happened. [52:37.620 --> 52:39.440] Been to pretty much all the HOPEs. [52:39.840 --> 52:41.320] A lot of people here know me. [52:42.060 --> 52:47.500] A lot of people remember me from a week ago when I dumped the drink on Emmanuel's head. [52:47.700 --> 52:49.240] And I still got in! [52:49.700 --> 52:50.160] Hoo-yah! [52:51.200 --> 52:52.060] Network boobs! [52:55.710 --> 52:57.110] I'm wearing a security shirt. [52:57.710 --> 52:58.070] Hey! [52:59.330 --> 53:01.350] Those shirts in here, you have to pass it. [53:02.710 --> 53:03.850] Good hack, I'll give you that. [53:03.950 --> 53:05.250] I didn't have anything on your head. [53:05.850 --> 53:08.470] Okay, I think we're done with the meeting stuff. [53:08.570 --> 53:09.590] No, we have time for VAR. [53:13.190 --> 53:13.550] Uh... [53:13.550 --> 53:15.310] Well, if there's one more, it should be the person in the back. [53:15.410 --> 53:16.610] Is the next panel here? [53:16.790 --> 53:17.250] I think it should. [53:17.250 --> 53:18.030] I think they're pointing out.