[00:01.140 --> 00:03.760]  I can't see you, but I'm so happy to be with you.
[00:03.880 --> 00:05.980]  And I'm sorry, it has to be remote.
[00:06.260 --> 00:08.780]  But listen, happy to be there.
[00:08.980 --> 00:13.820]  And so, you know, let me start off by saying, like, good afternoon.
[00:14.280 --> 00:25.400]  I'm Joshua Aaron, the creator of ICEBlock, a crowdsourced anonymous platform allowing users to report public sightings of Immigrations and Customs Enforcement agents to other users within a five mile radius of the sightings location.
[00:26.020 --> 00:34.080]  I'm sure many of you are familiar with ICEBlock and hopefully a lot of you have it installed, not only for your own protection, but to help keep others in your community safe.
[00:35.100 --> 00:44.120]  After watching Trump's first term and then reading Project 2025 and hearing his campaign rhetoric, I saw the writing on the wall and knew I had to do something to help fight back.
[00:44.860 --> 00:46.700]  I was raised in a jewish household.
[00:47.260 --> 00:54.320]  And growing up in that community, I had the opportunity to meet Holocaust survivors and learn all about the history of Hitler's rise to power in Nazi Germany.
[00:54.740 --> 01:07.500]  And when we see five year olds in courtrooms without representation, college students being disappeared for their political beliefs, or babies being ripped from their mother's arms while they're screaming for their children, we are watching history repeat itself.
[01:08.180 --> 01:16.580]  Now, some have criticized me for making this comparison and using terms like Gestapo to describe ICE agents or concentration camps to describe the detention centers.
[01:16.760 --> 01:18.800]  And my response is always the same.
[01:19.540 --> 01:24.440]  If you know your history, you also know that the Holocaust didn't start with the death camps.
[01:24.620 --> 01:32.180]  It started with leaders dividing the people of Germany by making anyone who didn't look like them, or believe in the gods, the God they believed in, their enemies.
[01:32.640 --> 01:38.460]  From there, work camps were built, and those camps are very much akin to the detention centers we are seeing today.
[01:39.160 --> 01:49.780]  We have a camp in Florida called Alligator Alcatraz, and the right thinks it's cute to sell merch, like hats and t-shirts, while pocketing the money for the Florida Republican Party.
[01:50.620 --> 01:58.880]  These conditions are deplorable, with 32 people to a cage, only three toilets, and they're told to get their drinking water from the back of the toilet.
[01:59.520 --> 02:06.020]  We've heard the stories of these detainees being zip-tied, made to get on their knees and eat off the floor.
[02:06.440 --> 02:07.780]  And this is inhumane.
[02:07.860 --> 02:13.080]  And the worst part is that over 92% of these people have never committed a violent crime.
[02:14.060 --> 02:19.260]  Just this week, we learned that over 80% of the people detained there are sick with COVID-like symptoms.
[02:19.520 --> 02:23.320]  And they're starting to clear people out, though we don't know where they're being sent next.
[02:24.160 --> 02:43.340]  With regards to the Gestapo reference, we have masked agents in plain clothes or military-style gear who refuse to identify themselves, camp outside of elementary schools, knock down the doors of foster children, drag people out of their cars, and on multiple occasions arrest U.S.
[02:43.440 --> 02:45.880]  citizens because they refuse to look at their identification.
[02:47.060 --> 02:51.800]  They show up claiming that they have a warrant when it's nothing more than what is called an administrative warrant.
[02:52.160 --> 02:58.220]  And while technically a legal document, it's not the same thing as a judicial warrant, and it does not carry the same authority.
[02:59.040 --> 03:05.780]  A judicial warrant is issued by a judge or a magistrate based on probable cause signed under the authority of the judiciary.
[03:05.780 --> 03:12.380]  This is the only type that grants law enforcement the full legal authority to enter private property without consent.
[03:13.040 --> 03:23.500]  An administrative warrant is issued by a government agency, for example, ICE or OSHA or housing inspectors, under statutory authority and is not signed by a judge.
[03:23.720 --> 03:31.680]  It is typically used for administrative or civil enforcement and does not authorize forcible entry into a home or private area without consent.
[03:32.420 --> 03:42.220]  So while an administrative warrant is technically a legal document in the sense that it's issued under some law or regulation, it is not an official warrant in the Fourth Amendment sense.
[03:42.540 --> 03:50.060]  For entry into a private residence or to compel certain actions, only a judicial warrant signed by a judge or magistrate qualifies.
[03:50.760 --> 03:59.000]  They fully believe the law doesn't apply to them and are now accusing anyone they falsely arrest, assault or detain of assaulting them.
[03:59.660 --> 04:06.320]  That's how this administration can continue to go to the media with their false claims of a significant increase in assaults against ICE agents.
[04:06.840 --> 04:10.460]  In fact, let's veer off for a moment and talk about this increase.
[04:10.780 --> 04:13.980]  They started at 400 percent, but that didn't play well.
[04:14.160 --> 04:15.680]  So it went to 500 percent.
[04:15.920 --> 04:17.180]  Then it was 700 percent.
[04:17.500 --> 04:19.060]  Then it was 830 percent.
[04:19.440 --> 04:22.960]  And as of last week, DHS said it was up a thousand percent.
[04:22.960 --> 04:25.180]  So where did they get those figures?
[04:26.580 --> 04:37.020]  The 830 percent DHS previously stated was due to a claimed increase for the period between January 21st and July 14th compared to the same period in 2024.
[04:37.020 --> 04:47.580]  The increased assaults are attributed to sanctuary policies rhetoric, mainstream media lies, and hysterical political rhetoric, which are claimed to be fueling the violence.
[04:48.020 --> 04:55.460]  These claims are made in the context of increased ICE arrests under the Trump administration, with some states seeing substantial increases.
[04:55.460 --> 05:03.600]  For example, here in Texas, we saw what they say is a 92 percent increase in average daily arrests compared to 2024.
[05:04.540 --> 05:14.540]  Even Fox News reported on X that DHS told them assaults against ICE agents and federal immigration enforcement are now up 690 percent from last year.
[05:15.140 --> 05:31.380]  While ICE has previously stuck to publishing percentages, the Fox News reporter was given raw data reporting just 79 assaults against immigration enforcement agents between January 21st and June 30th, up from 10 that took place in the same time last year.
[05:32.480 --> 05:39.160]  DHS also reports that ICE enforcement operations are highly targeted and that individuals are not targeted based on skin color.
[05:39.480 --> 05:41.460]  I think we all know that's not true.
[05:42.120 --> 05:47.460]  Some of these assaults are as innocuous as brushing up against an agent's forearm or patting them on the back.
[05:47.860 --> 05:52.520]  In fact, a majority of these so-called assaults have been dismissed when they come before a judge.
[05:53.380 --> 05:57.920]  Everything they do is to stoke fear and encourage blind obedience to whatever they say.
[05:58.840 --> 06:10.880]  According to the Cato Institute, as of June 14th of this year, ICE had booked into detention 204,297 individuals since October 1st of last year, which is the start of fiscal year 2025.
[06:11.700 --> 06:20.240]  Of these bookends, 65% or 133,687 individuals had no criminal convictions.
[06:20.900 --> 06:26.720]  Moreover, more than 93% of ICE bookends were never convicted of any violent offenses.
[06:27.220 --> 06:30.980]  About 9 in 10 had no convictions for violent or property offenses.
[06:30.980 --> 06:39.980]  Most convictions, 53%, fell into three main categories, immigration, traffic, or nonviolent crimes.
[06:41.120 --> 06:50.300]  This is the same administration claiming violent crimes skyrocketing all over the country as a justification for taking over local police and deploying the National Guard on U.S.
[06:50.400 --> 06:53.580]  citizens when violent crime is down by large margins.
[06:53.580 --> 06:55.680]  In fact, in Washington, D.C.
[06:55.780 --> 06:58.900]  alone, it's down 36% year over year.
[06:59.440 --> 07:04.940]  And this is what I mean when I say their rhetoric is designed to stoke fear and outrage while energizing their base.
[07:05.460 --> 07:14.080]  If one person ran a red light last year, and this year, three people ran the same red light, I could say people who run red lights is up 200%.
[07:14.080 --> 07:15.180]  It's out of control.
[07:15.400 --> 07:16.380]  Something must be done.
[07:16.380 --> 07:19.780]  But when you see the data, it all falls apart.
[07:20.640 --> 07:24.260]  Now, this administration is claiming that this app put ICE officers at risk.
[07:24.520 --> 07:30.200]  But the reality is that its ICE agents put the livelihood and well-being of our immigrant friends and neighbors at risk.
[07:30.680 --> 07:38.420]  It seems ICE has been handed a blanket authority to carry out these so-called raids, in any manner they choose, due process and habeas corpus be damned.
[07:39.000 --> 07:46.320]  They flip the script, making the perpetrators of violence look like the victims, so they can continue to operate with impunity.
[07:47.040 --> 07:53.840]  Now, we are now only around eight months into Trump's second term, and already this country and our government is unrecognizable.
[07:54.220 --> 08:00.500]  They flop the rule of law, they laugh at our constitution, and they ignore any ruling from a judge that doesn't support their narrative.
[08:01.620 --> 08:03.500]  This is where ICE block comes in.
[08:03.500 --> 08:10.660]  Because it provides a necessary tool that anyone with an iPhone can use to protect both themselves and the people around them.
[08:11.700 --> 08:16.840]  So many of us thought that Trump was all bluster, and there was no way any of this would come to fruition.
[08:17.420 --> 08:19.900]  But I'm here to tell you, believe him when he said something.
[08:20.300 --> 08:23.760]  Because these people don't care about the rule of law or our constitution.
[08:24.380 --> 08:33.900]  They have an objective, and until they are stopped, they will continue to do whatever they need to do to turn this country into a white Christian nation and enact their authoritarian and fascist beliefs.
[08:34.740 --> 08:38.020]  I knew I had to do something to fight back and help those most vulnerable.
[08:38.880 --> 08:43.580]  The initial release of ICE block took around three and a half months to plan and code.
[08:43.800 --> 08:48.540]  And on April 2nd of this year, it was released to absolutely no fanfare, I might add.
[08:49.160 --> 08:57.540]  When I had finished the code and before submitting it to the Apple App Store, I reached out to a few constitutional and criminal attorneys to make sure I was on the right side of the law.
[08:58.100 --> 09:03.460]  All agreed that this was protected speech and had already been litigated numerous times over the years.
[09:04.220 --> 09:10.280]  Though ICE block wasn't designed with Waze or any map app in mind, it has often been compared to such apps.
[09:10.440 --> 09:17.680]  Because the pushback we are seeing from the right is the same fear-mongering rhetoric that was used when the ability to report a speed trap was first released.
[09:18.140 --> 09:23.920]  People were told that law enforcement officers' lives were in danger if their publicly available location was disclosed.
[09:24.520 --> 09:28.240]  Now it's become just another crowdsourced feature that no one thinks about.
[09:29.060 --> 09:32.740]  When we see a speed trap alert, we slow down and avoid getting a ticket.
[09:33.180 --> 09:35.500]  This is the exact same principle with ICE block.
[09:35.980 --> 09:38.740]  When you see a reported sighting, you avoid the area.
[09:39.180 --> 09:43.080]  It's why I continue to say that ICE block is to inform, not obstruct.
[09:43.600 --> 09:50.740]  In fact, there were multiple cases litigated over this very issue, and all were won in favor of the people's First Amendment rights.
[09:52.440 --> 09:54.800]  There were only a few dozen users at first.
[09:55.020 --> 10:03.160]  But then, I was contacted by a journalist named Natish Pawat from Slate.com, who understood what I was trying to do and wanted to write an article about it.
[10:03.580 --> 10:04.500]  I was thrilled.
[10:04.800 --> 10:07.360]  I did the interview, but then, nothing.
[10:08.000 --> 10:12.520]  I kept in contact with Natish, and two weeks later, the article was released on a Friday morning.
[10:13.040 --> 10:19.240]  And even though it was on the front page of Slate.com for half the day, unfortunately, the user base only grew to a few thousand.
[10:20.820 --> 10:22.520]  Then, something incredible happened.
[10:23.300 --> 10:27.720]  Because Slate is serious media, it attracted the attention of Claire Duffy at CNN.
[10:28.360 --> 10:32.040]  She reached out and asked for a pre-interview to see if there was a story to be told.
[10:32.200 --> 10:35.080]  And after speaking with her for about half an hour, she was in.
[10:35.640 --> 10:38.660]  We filmed the interview a week later, but again, nothing.
[10:39.400 --> 10:46.960]  A week went by, and out of curiosity, I reached out and asked when it might be released, thinking this was going to be another website article with some video.
[10:47.420 --> 10:54.200]  But to my surprise, she said she was going to release it first thing Monday morning and wanted to be on air all day talking about it.
[10:54.800 --> 10:55.580]  Amazing, right?
[10:56.140 --> 11:00.900]  This idea I had and was pushing via blue sky social media posts was going to be on CNN.
[11:01.240 --> 11:02.080]  It's crazy.
[11:02.940 --> 11:06.960]  She did exactly what she said she was going to do, and everything changed.
[11:06.960 --> 11:09.560]  It went viral almost immediately.
[11:09.900 --> 11:17.820]  And even though ICE had refused to comment on the story before its release, Todd Lyons, acting director of ICE, issued a written statement condemning ICE block.
[11:18.220 --> 11:30.120]  At the noon White House press briefing, a reporter asked Caroline Leavitt about it, to which she responded in true Trump administration fashion without having any knowledge of the app, that this was obstruction of justice and they were going to look into me.
[11:31.260 --> 11:33.880]  Tom Homan was on Fox News talking about it.
[11:34.000 --> 11:35.940]  Kristi Noem threatened me live on camera.
[11:35.940 --> 11:39.620]  And Pam Bondi told Sean Hannity that I, quote, better watch out.
[11:40.160 --> 11:42.740]  I mean, seriously, who could have asked for better press than that?
[11:44.180 --> 11:47.700]  So within a few days, we had over 30,000 users.
[11:47.980 --> 11:50.060]  But it just kept garnering more and more attention.
[11:50.500 --> 11:54.100]  For the next two weeks, I was doing between six and eight interviews a day.
[11:54.340 --> 11:57.360]  And within a few weeks, we had grown to 800,000 users.
[11:57.800 --> 11:59.620]  It had become a global media phenomenon.
[11:59.620 --> 12:02.860]  They were talking about it in China, Poland, the UK.
[12:03.480 --> 12:05.500]  And I was doing interviews all over the world.
[12:06.380 --> 12:11.660]  Today, I am so proud to announce that we have officially crossed the 1 million user mark.
[12:11.820 --> 12:15.220]  And it's growing by around 10,000 users every day.
[12:15.920 --> 12:16.720]  That's awesome.
[12:16.720 --> 12:17.700]  Thank you.
[12:17.860 --> 12:18.380]  Thank you.
[12:18.560 --> 12:18.640]  Thank you.
[12:20.580 --> 12:25.500]  Now, of course, the press coverage is what catapulted ICEblock to the top of the App Store to charge.
[12:25.820 --> 12:31.460]  But I firmly believe that it's the design of the app that has caused it to stay relevant and continue growing.
[12:32.240 --> 12:34.400]  My number one concern was anonymity.
[12:34.660 --> 12:38.400]  My number two concern was being able to deliver this to everyone free of charge.
[12:38.780 --> 12:41.480]  And my third was to make this easy to use and understand.
[12:42.180 --> 12:43.640]  So let's talk about each.
[12:44.800 --> 12:48.860]  My hope is that all of us here today are concerned with user and data security.
[12:49.120 --> 12:50.520]  But this goes a bit further.
[12:50.760 --> 12:58.880]  Because even though both developing and using ICEblock is completely legal and protected under the First Amendment, this administration doesn't seem to care about such things.
[12:58.880 --> 13:08.580]  And the last thing I would want is for them to subpoena the database and be able to identify each individual that has installed the app, or even worse, target those who report a sighting.
[13:09.320 --> 13:17.720]  It's for these reasons we store very little data in the database, and absolutely no user identifiable information, including metrics, are ever stored.
[13:18.420 --> 13:25.160]  If the government were to issue a subpoena, and we were forced to turn over the database records, it would be a complete waste of their time.
[13:25.760 --> 13:33.560]  Even the latitude and longitude of the reported location is stored in a custom-packed decimal, and the notes are stored in a compressed binary format.
[13:34.080 --> 13:37.580]  Only having the source code of the app would allow them to unpack those values.
[13:37.780 --> 13:44.000]  And even then, they would have nothing more than a point on a map and what optional notes may have been included about a sighting.
[13:44.420 --> 13:47.300]  So again, 100% anonymous.
[13:48.140 --> 13:54.000]  Now, I'm sure some of you are saying nothing's 100% anonymous, because Apple knows who has installed which apps on their devices.
[13:54.580 --> 13:55.380]  Sure they do.
[13:55.700 --> 13:57.500]  But that has nothing to do with ICEBlock.
[13:57.780 --> 14:02.680]  That's the same as you installing any app, because that's how Apple determines what updates are available to you.
[14:03.100 --> 14:09.260]  The point is, any information you could suggest Apple may have, they already have without you installing ICEBlock.
[14:09.620 --> 14:14.660]  Plus, in multiple situations, Apple has gone to court to fight for the privacy and security of their customers.
[14:15.640 --> 14:20.220]  So let's talk about concern number two, delivering this to everyone free of charge.
[14:20.920 --> 14:27.460]  We are often led to believe, and rightfully so, that if a piece of software or a service is free, you are the product.
[14:28.020 --> 14:32.160]  One of the only times I can think of where that is not true is ICEBlock.
[14:32.720 --> 14:40.900]  Not only is the app free to download, but there are no ads, no in-app purchases, no upsells, no donation buttons or GoFundMe campaigns.
[14:41.280 --> 14:43.380]  This is truly free.
[14:44.460 --> 14:55.260]  It was so important to me that even though I have been offered contributions, both monetary and otherwise, I have always refused, never wanting to be seen as profiting off of other people's suffering, or somehow grifting.
[14:56.220 --> 15:02.840]  Fortunately, I am able to solely fund ICEBlock, and will continue to do so as long as I can, or as long as it's needed.
[15:03.480 --> 15:07.020]  And finally, making ICEBlock easy to use and understand.
[15:07.660 --> 15:16.600]  When I started sketching out ideas for the app, I had a long list of possible features and cool interface designs, but quickly realized this was not about bells and whistles.
[15:17.020 --> 15:28.460]  This was about keeping people safe in the most stable and secure way possible, which also meant that a tech-savvy teenager and an 80-year-old grandmother must equally be able to understand and use the app.
[15:28.460 --> 15:33.600]  It's for this reason that the entire thing is a pretty simplistic main page and a few sheets.
[15:34.180 --> 15:38.000]  All of the heavy lifting is done behind the scenes, transparently to the user.
[15:38.960 --> 15:45.260]  So here we are, a little over four months after the initial release, and ICEBlock has become part of the vernacular.
[15:45.760 --> 15:52.660]  I still received threats and hate speech, but I have an amazing legal team ready to pounce if anything were brought to bear at my doorstep.
[15:53.680 --> 15:58.160]  Like anything that ruffles the feathers of an authoritarian regime, it wasn't all good.
[15:58.540 --> 16:00.880]  The right was and still is up in arms about it.
[16:01.020 --> 16:09.200]  I started receiving death threats via phone calls and emails, and I was doxed on X with my home address, photos of my house, and more made public to all.
[16:10.180 --> 16:13.080]  My wife, Carolyn, lost her job with the Department of Justice.
[16:13.080 --> 16:16.160]  She worked for almost a decade with the Office of the U.S.
[16:16.460 --> 16:20.860]  Trustee, which is a subset of the DOJ, kind of like the watchdogs of the bankruptcy system.
[16:21.580 --> 16:25.520]  She's a forensic accountant and was beloved by everyone in her office.
[16:26.540 --> 16:38.540]  After realizing that threatening me was getting them nowhere, Laura Loomer doxed Carolyn on X, writing all kinds of hateful things about her and claiming to have informed Tom Homan that she was a DOJ employee who needed to be fired.
[16:38.540 --> 16:44.660]  Homan went on Newsmax and said he met with the DOJ, which obviously meant Pam Bondi.
[16:44.900 --> 16:49.780]  And 24 hours later, in an email she received on Friday afternoon, she was terminated.
[16:50.740 --> 16:56.840]  They claimed lack of candor, which basically means lying via omission, though no specifics were given.
[16:57.360 --> 17:03.460]  With ICEBlock's popularity, the media began reaching out to her for interviews and, of course, asked the DOJ for comment.
[17:04.300 --> 17:05.880]  Now, here's the crazy part.
[17:06.220 --> 17:11.460]  Normally, the DOJ doesn't comment on anyone's termination, especially some auditor in the office of the U.S.
[17:11.540 --> 17:12.780]  Trustee in Austin, Texas.
[17:13.180 --> 17:17.160]  But to the journalist's shock, their request for comment was answered.
[17:17.660 --> 17:25.160]  The DOJ had prepared a written statement about Carolyn and responded to every single journalist who reached out within minutes.
[17:25.840 --> 17:28.620]  Interestingly, they never mentioned lack of candor.
[17:29.540 --> 17:31.040]  Here's what they told the press.
[17:31.360 --> 17:33.120]  And this is their exact quote.
[17:33.700 --> 17:43.740]  For several weeks, the Department of Justice inquired into this former employee's activities and discovered she has a sizable interest in All You Chart Inc., the company that holds the IP for ICEBlock.
[17:44.180 --> 17:51.840]  ICEBlock is an app that illegal aliens use to evade capture while endangering the lives of ICE officers by disclosing their location.
[17:52.480 --> 17:57.240]  This DOJ will not tolerate threats against law enforcement or law enforcement officers.
[17:58.620 --> 17:59.980]  Obviously, none of that is true.
[18:00.360 --> 18:09.900]  She owns a 20% share in All You Chart Inc., which is the company I started when I began working on the healthcare app that I've been entrenched in for the last four and a half years.
[18:09.900 --> 18:18.500]  In fact, I started the company because I needed an Apple developer account while I was coding and wanted to have a company own the account instead of just me personally.
[18:19.440 --> 18:27.380]  Her ownership has nothing to do with anything other than being able to take over and wind things down should I pass away or become unable to perform my duties.
[18:27.820 --> 18:32.880]  She never marketed the app, talked about the app, or had anything to do with ICEBlock in any way.
[18:32.880 --> 18:36.180]  But still, they ended her career in government service.
[18:36.820 --> 18:46.440]  About a week later, some right-wing nutjobs thought it would be cute to send a bunch of pizzas to our home under the name Theodora Kaczynski, a female version of the name of the Unabomber.
[18:47.160 --> 18:49.960]  Basically letting her know that they know where she lives.
[18:51.000 --> 18:52.000]  But here's the thing.
[18:52.440 --> 18:55.920]  They can say whatever they want about me because it's not about me.
[18:56.160 --> 18:57.540]  It's about helping people.
[18:57.540 --> 18:59.380]  I refuse to live in fear.
[18:59.440 --> 19:03.780]  And as long as they keep subverting the rule of law in our constitution, ICEBlock will remain.
[19:04.260 --> 19:06.960]  I firmly believe that no human is illegal.
[19:07.160 --> 19:10.640]  And it is our immigrant friends and neighbors that make this country great.
[19:11.280 --> 19:17.900]  We often look at the world seeing the injustices perpetrated on its citizens and think to ourselves, what can I do about it?
[19:18.320 --> 19:24.980]  As much as we may want to help enact change, it is often such an insurmountable hurdle that it seems out of reach.
[19:24.980 --> 19:27.260]  But I'm here to tell you, it's not.
[19:27.980 --> 19:31.200]  Whether you choose to do something small or large doesn't matter.
[19:31.600 --> 19:34.880]  The skills you possess can be used for the betterment of society.
[19:35.120 --> 19:39.320]  And even the tiniest action could vastly alter the course of someone's life.
[19:40.200 --> 19:43.640]  Now, what you don't want to do is copy something someone else has already done.
[19:43.880 --> 19:47.100]  They may have risked more than you could ever imagine to get it out there.
[19:47.740 --> 19:51.000]  Come up with something new that perhaps no one else has yet considered.
[19:51.000 --> 19:55.280]  It's with these innovations that you can make significant impact.
[19:56.020 --> 19:57.420]  You have the power.
[19:57.840 --> 20:00.360]  Give no quarter to those who try to divide us.
[20:00.480 --> 20:07.820]  You have the knowledge, the skills, and the capability to do something amazing and bring real change to those who need it most.
[20:08.440 --> 20:09.960]  We all need to do our part.
[20:10.100 --> 20:18.480]  And yes, it's sometimes scary, especially when you end up going head to head with an authoritarian regime who consistently calls for your head and goes after your family.
[20:18.900 --> 20:23.220]  But like I've always said, if they're that upset, you must be doing something right.
[20:24.160 --> 20:32.800]  When we were kids and we learned about World War II and what happened in Nazi Germany, many of us were posed the question, what would you have done if you were there?
[20:33.300 --> 20:35.500]  And the unfortunate reality is this.
[20:36.180 --> 20:40.040]  Whatever you thought you would do, you're doing it right now.
[20:41.020 --> 20:45.960]  Be the change that we all so desperately need and help make this world a better place for all of us.
[20:46.700 --> 20:47.360]  Thank you.
[20:58.820 --> 20:59.460]  Thank you.
[20:59.620 --> 21:00.620]  Thank you so much.
[21:01.860 --> 21:15.660]  So if anyone has questions for Joshua, I'd like to invite, if it's okay with you, I'd like to invite you up so you can see him and wave and talk to him for a second and ask your question so we can get an answer.
[21:15.840 --> 21:18.400]  If you're watching this remotely, I'm paying attention to Matrix.
[21:20.160 --> 21:25.000]  And I'm in here right now, so I guess we'll start with anyone.
[21:25.000 --> 21:25.740]  Yeah, come on.
[21:28.240 --> 21:30.240]  Did you want me to talk here or go up there?
[21:30.460 --> 21:32.220]  Do you want to come up and wave and say hi?
[21:32.980 --> 21:34.060]  If it's okay with you, Josh.
[21:34.680 --> 21:35.200]  I'm lying.
[21:35.380 --> 21:37.260]  You are welcome to do whatever you want to do.
[21:37.320 --> 21:37.520]  Yes, come up.
[21:38.100 --> 21:38.540]  Yeah, come up.
[21:38.820 --> 21:39.640]  So take these stairs, yeah.
[21:40.820 --> 21:42.120]  Just two at a time.
[21:46.020 --> 21:46.920]  No, no, no.
[21:47.160 --> 21:47.800]  This way.
[21:48.840 --> 21:49.600]  This, go that way.
[21:49.940 --> 21:50.200]  Thank you.
[21:51.120 --> 21:52.220]  So we'll take a couple questions.
[21:55.380 --> 21:55.980]  Yeah.
[21:57.160 --> 21:57.540]  Yeah.
[21:57.800 --> 21:58.300]  So here.
[21:58.620 --> 21:59.420]  There's the camera.
[21:59.720 --> 21:59.840]  Wave.
[21:59.980 --> 22:00.260]  Hello.
[22:01.260 --> 22:01.860]  Hi.
[22:04.220 --> 22:09.020]  So thanks for putting so much effort in protecting people against fascists.
[22:09.580 --> 22:19.120]  Um, so I work with a local ice watching, uh, group, like a mutual aid group that has a rapid response hotline.
[22:19.220 --> 22:28.560]  And so when people, um, uh, see an ice society, they text or call this line and then there's a big volunteer network that goes to verify that it's true.
[22:28.560 --> 22:36.640]  And so what I've noticed is that when there's actually an ice raid, um, the whole community starts freaking out.
[22:36.860 --> 22:42.960]  And then the number of people who are contacting, like saying that there's an ice sighting skyrockets.
[22:43.240 --> 22:48.220]  And so there's, um, uh, basically like almost all of them are false positives.
[22:48.220 --> 23:01.440]  Um, and so, you know, people see like a bunch of, uh, you know, sheriffs doing something and they think it's an ice raid or there's, you know, a smog check and they think it's an ice raid cause it looks like a checkpoint or whatever.
[23:01.880 --> 23:11.140]  Um, and so with my local group, what they put a whole lot of energy into verifying every single report before spreading information about it.
[23:11.660 --> 23:31.260]  Um, and I guess my question is, how do you know that ICEBlock isn't just full of false positives and have you done any like user research or work with local immigration groups to like figure out, uh, you know, how reliable this is, how much it's actually helping people versus causing panic?
[23:33.340 --> 23:35.440]  Well, first of all, great question.
[23:35.620 --> 23:37.300]  And I'm happy to address all of it.
[23:37.480 --> 23:40.220]  Um, but, uh, let me just say thank you for being a part of that.
[23:40.220 --> 23:45.540]  Um, that's, that's an incredible thing to be, uh, doing and, and helping people.
[23:45.760 --> 23:47.480]  So, well done you.
[23:48.080 --> 23:52.880]  As far as ICEBlock, I'm going to kind of do this out of order.
[23:53.340 --> 23:55.140]  Um, so the answer is no.
[23:55.320 --> 24:04.420]  Um, we do not do any user data or metrics, um, which I mentioned because it wouldn't be anonymous that way, right?
[24:04.540 --> 24:09.360]  I mean, people ask me all the time in interviews, where are the majority of your users located?
[24:09.360 --> 24:10.340]  I don't know.
[24:10.860 --> 24:13.980]  Or, uh, you know, how many sightings do you get per hour?
[24:14.320 --> 24:15.140]  I don't know.
[24:15.540 --> 24:17.300]  Cause we don't track those things.
[24:17.480 --> 24:21.660]  The more we would track, the less anonymous it becomes.
[24:22.160 --> 24:23.980]  So none of that is tracked.
[24:24.840 --> 24:28.660]  But as far as false sightings, let's talk about that.
[24:28.740 --> 24:29.640]  Cause it's an important issue.
[24:30.560 --> 24:33.740]  Um, I'm not going to tell you there's no false sightings in ICEBlock.
[24:33.740 --> 24:34.800]  Of course there are.
[24:35.320 --> 24:37.080]  That's what nefarious users do.
[24:37.300 --> 24:40.280]  They think it's really funny to scare people and hurt people.
[24:41.340 --> 24:43.880]  But there are safeguards in the app.
[24:43.980 --> 24:45.860]  Um, and here's a few of them.
[24:46.040 --> 24:49.120]  So you can only report one sighting every five minutes.
[24:50.020 --> 24:53.020]  You cannot report the same sighting twice.
[24:53.300 --> 24:54.760]  Not just you, but any user.
[24:54.760 --> 24:58.700]  So only one location, uh, can be reported at a time.
[24:59.300 --> 25:02.120]  All sightings are deleted every four hours.
[25:02.620 --> 25:08.220]  And that's mainly because if ICE shows up somewhere, they might be there for an hour or two.
[25:08.720 --> 25:10.000]  Probably not three.
[25:10.000 --> 25:11.780]  Most likely not four.
[25:12.020 --> 25:15.360]  And in the highly unlikely circumstance, they are there more than four hours.
[25:15.800 --> 25:18.400]  Somebody else can just report the sighting once it's been deleted.
[25:19.060 --> 25:21.280]  It also has to be a real address.
[25:21.420 --> 25:27.080]  Um, so you can't just type in 123 Main Street or somebody in New York can't report in LA or whatever.
[25:27.360 --> 25:31.020]  Um, you can only report within your own five mile radius.
[25:31.880 --> 25:40.240]  So when you see people talking about how ICEBlock is just full of spam and false reports, you can kind of see where that's not true.
[25:40.460 --> 25:49.900]  And a lot of those accounts on X that I've seen have precisely like three views on a post or something like that, you know, where no one's even even watching these people.
[25:50.000 --> 25:53.380]  They just think it's, it's funny, I guess, to post something like that.
[25:54.140 --> 25:59.200]  Um, like I, I got a big laugh out of one guy who was like, I, I reported a hundred sightings this morning.
[25:59.200 --> 26:03.800]  And all I'm thinking was you spent 500 minutes in your mom's basement doing that.
[26:05.200 --> 26:07.680]  So it's not possible to do this.
[26:08.020 --> 26:16.360]  Um, I mean, you would have to have serious willpower to sit there and report a sighting and then wait five minutes and report another sighting and wait five minutes and report another sighting.
[26:16.460 --> 26:19.280]  By the time you're done, sightings have already become deleted.
[26:19.500 --> 26:19.620]  Right?
[26:20.740 --> 26:35.320]  So in an effort for user anonymity, the decision was made that if there are false sightings, the worst case scenario is that those people simply stay away from that location for a few hours.
[26:36.120 --> 26:41.020]  Um, much better than having user identifiable data that could come under government subpoena.
[26:41.240 --> 26:45.480]  So I hope that answers your question and kind of alleviates those concerns.
[26:49.270 --> 26:52.870]  Hey, um, thank you for building the tool and giving the talk.
[26:52.870 --> 26:58.330]  Um, I just had a question about your decision not to provide an Android version of this.
[26:58.430 --> 27:04.630]  I read your, um, what you put up as your reason being that, um, I'm sorry.
[27:04.630 --> 27:05.210]  No, you're good.
[27:05.530 --> 27:05.730]  Okay.
[27:06.330 --> 27:06.730]  Uh, yeah.
[27:06.850 --> 27:07.250]  Hello again.
[27:07.850 --> 27:08.910]  Um, yeah.
[27:09.130 --> 27:19.290]  I read what you posted online about that being, oh, um, Android notifications to do that, to handle that, you would need to have store, um, device IDs.
[27:19.650 --> 27:23.290]  Um, that doesn't sound true to me.
[27:23.550 --> 27:26.670]  Um, you can do device side tokenization.
[27:26.670 --> 27:35.610]  So you can like send an encrypted blob asking for specific things from the device side, and then the device can choose to push the notification.
[27:35.950 --> 27:41.150]  So like, have you considered talking to like an Android developer, um, someone more familiar with that?
[27:41.650 --> 27:42.330]  Thank you.
[27:43.890 --> 27:44.450]  Sure.
[27:44.830 --> 27:47.050]  Um, so I knew I was gonna get the Android thing.
[27:47.210 --> 27:55.750]  Uh, the way the app initially worked when it first came out, used push notifications to update sites.
[27:56.410 --> 27:58.470]  The app no longer works like that.
[27:59.150 --> 28:12.110]  Um, so I don't have anything to announce here today, but I can tell you that my brain is churning and definitely Android is something that I am looking very heavily at.
[28:12.590 --> 28:16.210]  It goes much further than just, can you do it?
[28:16.550 --> 28:24.450]  Um, there are, let's just say quite a bit of costs involved, quite a bit of infrastructure involved.
[28:25.150 --> 28:29.990]  Um, but my thinking cap is on and I'm not saying no.
[28:31.050 --> 28:31.570]  Okay.
[28:31.830 --> 28:32.110]  Thank you.
[28:32.890 --> 28:33.410]  Awesome.
[28:33.670 --> 28:36.390]  Um, we're gonna just move to the matrix really quick.
[28:36.630 --> 28:39.070]  Um, question is, how do you handle hosting?
[28:39.270 --> 28:49.090]  Do you have fear that political pressure on the domain registrar could result in a revoked domain, which may result in data either going to a black hole or to a honeypot that's taken over by the government?
[28:50.570 --> 28:52.190]  Uh, that's an interesting question.
[28:52.190 --> 29:02.450]  Um, I have honestly never considered that, but, uh, I mean, you know, we registered the domain with a, with a, a good registrar.
[29:02.450 --> 29:07.090]  I have received no notices that that is a thing.
[29:07.750 --> 29:15.010]  Um, the, uh, website has been off and, uh, you know, the service is, is rock solid and stable.
[29:15.130 --> 29:18.110]  So no, I, I don't, I don't think that's a concern at all.
[29:23.300 --> 29:24.840]  Uh, hi.
[29:25.000 --> 29:31.360]  And first off, thank you for this talk and for, you know, jumping in front of, uh, excellent questions from everyone so far.
[29:31.580 --> 29:36.300]  Um, I'm curious, I'm an attorney working in the cybersecurity and digital rights space.
[29:36.620 --> 29:48.060]  Um, I enjoyed the discussion around sort of the, let's call it architectural anonymity, but I'm curious if ICEBlock either currently or has intentions to implement something like a warrant canary or other method.
[29:48.420 --> 30:04.700]  Um, and more generally, whether you have received any things like search warrants or all rits act requests or anything else, um, sort of around things like more intrusive means of obtaining information from ICEBlock, things like, um, requests for live interception,
[30:04.900 --> 30:06.380]  which would be authorized under a search warrant.
[30:06.380 --> 30:09.800]  Um, and if you have a sort of response plan in place already for those.
[30:11.280 --> 30:12.780]  That's an awesome question.
[30:13.140 --> 30:20.440]  Um, so no, uh, on the warrant canary because it would probably require some sort of user data to do that.
[30:20.440 --> 30:30.600]  But beyond that, when you have extra features in an app like this, such as what you're describing, and all of these are amazing suggestions.
[30:30.600 --> 30:52.960]  I've gotten so many incredible suggestions, uh, you know, over the course of the app's lifespan so far, but I keep coming back to sort of what I mentioned in the talk, which is the more you put into it, the more features that are there, the less it becomes this really simple to use early warning
[30:52.960 --> 30:53.420]  system.
[30:53.620 --> 30:55.540]  It becomes something much greater than that.
[30:56.140 --> 31:02.140]  And when you think about photos, for example, or videos, then that's been a big request.
[31:02.360 --> 31:05.400]  The amount of storage that we take on the back end is tremendous.
[31:05.800 --> 31:08.400]  So that that's kind of off the table.
[31:08.400 --> 31:17.300]  Even the optional notes field, to be honest with you, um, I had set it initially at 400 characters and no one used anywhere close to that.
[31:17.480 --> 31:22.200]  So in the next version, it's gonna be limited to 180 characters because there's just no, no purpose in that.
[31:22.480 --> 31:33.500]  But the simplicity is intentional because again, we want, you know, the non-tech savvy grandmother who's walking around her neighborhood to be able to report a site, right?
[31:33.540 --> 31:35.740]  We don't want her to have to go through, what is this button doing?
[31:35.740 --> 31:38.200]  What does that button do in this flashy thing over here?
[31:38.500 --> 31:38.880]  Whatever.
[31:39.400 --> 31:41.900]  But there are some cool features that I implemented.
[31:42.020 --> 31:42.940]  It has nothing to do with your question.
[31:43.080 --> 31:49.280]  But I think it's cool to mention is, uh, you know, there's a translate feature now on the notes field.
[31:49.440 --> 31:57.120]  So when you tap a sighting, the device automatically detects if the notes are in your phone's language, which is pretty cool.
[31:57.300 --> 31:59.040]  I think it doesn't always get it right.
[31:59.180 --> 32:08.860]  I mean, it's the built in translation features from iOS, but if it detects that there's, you have a different word in there, you can tap the translate button and it will translate it into your language.
[32:09.100 --> 32:19.320]  So if the notes are in English and your phone is set to Spanish and the app will then show up in Spanish, you hit translate and it will translate English to Spanish for you so you can read the notes.
[32:19.320 --> 32:24.120]  But other things like adding major features like that, not so much.
[32:24.640 --> 32:26.600]  And specifically, you're, I mean, you're an attorney.
[32:27.000 --> 32:40.200]  When you do predictive, uh, algorithms, uh, to kind of see where ice will go next, um, that kind of falls under obstruction of justice and could be a very, very difficult thing to overcome in a corporate.
[32:41.240 --> 32:43.780]  Sorry, let me, let me rephrase the second part of that question.
[32:43.780 --> 32:45.320]  Cause I think you answered a different one.
[32:45.600 --> 32:46.500]  Um, sure.
[32:46.740 --> 32:59.240]  What I'm curious about is in the event of, you know, for example, uh, law enforcement arriving with a court order, either under the all rights act or under a search warrant that says we need you to implement this live surveillance of users on the app.
[32:59.800 --> 33:00.680]  Uh, what is I spot?
[33:01.180 --> 33:01.960]  Oh, totally.
[33:02.620 --> 33:03.020]  Sorry.
[33:03.480 --> 33:04.900]  I've heard like half with your answer.
[33:05.060 --> 33:06.380]  It was like, I think I asked this wrong.
[33:06.480 --> 33:07.080]  Let me rephrase.
[33:07.440 --> 33:08.600]  No, no, no, you're good.
[33:08.720 --> 33:08.980]  You're good.
[33:09.080 --> 33:11.400]  I, I, I'm sure it was just my misunderstanding.
[33:11.400 --> 33:13.580]  Uh, the answer is I just told them to go fuck themselves.
[33:16.700 --> 33:17.460]  Thank you very much.
[33:20.020 --> 33:20.700]  All right, guys.
[33:21.300 --> 33:21.460]  Come on.
[33:21.600 --> 33:21.940]  Here we go.
[33:22.060 --> 33:23.520]  I'm just saying that cause I pee here.
[33:24.240 --> 33:24.840]  Here we go.
[33:25.100 --> 33:27.540]  To be fair, my first answer was far more engaging.
[33:28.300 --> 33:29.220]  Josh, one more time.
[33:30.080 --> 33:30.600]  What'd you say?
[33:30.660 --> 33:33.540]  I just said to be fair, my first answer to that was far more engaging.
[33:34.100 --> 33:34.280]  Oh.
[33:37.460 --> 33:42.960]  Well, I commend you on your effort in taking action to help your immigrant friends and neighbors.
[33:43.360 --> 33:57.120]  Uh, I would implore you to reconsider the idea that youth, um, action, types of action are necessary in order to help our friends and neighbors, our immigrant friends and neighbors.
[33:57.440 --> 34:10.420]  Um, a lot of them already have strong local support networks to, um, think about these sorts of issues that they're facing currently as this is not a new issue.
[34:10.780 --> 34:27.880]  And I am wondering, I think someone asked earlier if perhaps in the design of ice block or even now, are you currently working with immigrant communities to figure out what resources they need?
[34:29.560 --> 34:31.200]  That's a fantastic question.
[34:31.800 --> 34:34.580]  Um, so the first way I would answer that is.
[34:36.520 --> 34:38.500]  Let's talk about the language support in the app.
[34:38.620 --> 34:41.840]  Cause there's like 18 or 19 different languages that are now supported.
[34:41.980 --> 34:49.580]  So whatever your phone is set to the app shows up, whether it's Spanish or simplified Chinese or Italian or German, or a number of other languages.
[34:49.800 --> 34:52.920]  So that's the first way that I thought about that kind of support.
[34:52.920 --> 35:02.440]  But your question goes to community organizations and there are fantastic community organizers all over this country doing incredible work.
[35:03.280 --> 35:08.440]  The issue has been, um, and it's not that I am against this at all.
[35:08.520 --> 35:09.700]  In fact, I am all for it.
[35:09.780 --> 35:11.720]  And I would love to meet with these people.
[35:11.860 --> 35:15.860]  I have offered to do personalized training, uh, on ice block for them.
[35:15.860 --> 35:23.860]  But what they have in place today is very trusted by their community.
[35:23.860 --> 35:29.540]  And it's usually a small community that they represent, at least from my experience and what I've heard.
[35:30.160 --> 35:34.900]  Um, so they're very wary of any other technology.
[35:35.320 --> 35:46.840]  And so I was really happy that people like TechCrunch and the EFF independently verified that I'm doing exactly what I say I'm doing with this, where it is 100% anonymous.
[35:46.860 --> 35:48.420]  I am not tracking your location.
[35:48.600 --> 35:50.160]  I am not storing any user data.
[35:50.700 --> 35:54.760]  Um, but they are still hesitant, um, to be honest with you.
[35:55.000 --> 35:57.240]  And so I would love to see it adopted.
[35:58.260 --> 36:09.700]  One of the issues that has been brought up, and this has been brought up, I think, three different times by different community organizers, is can you make the app do what we do?
[36:10.500 --> 36:12.560]  Like, this is the way that we do things.
[36:12.880 --> 36:14.560]  Can't you make the app like we do it?
[36:15.400 --> 36:25.660]  And the answer is, yeah, you could, but then I'd have to do a version for you and a version for this guy and a version for that guy and a version for that guy, because everybody's got a different way of doing things.
[36:26.080 --> 36:31.800]  And so the way ICEBlock is developed is so that it works for everyone very simplistically.
[36:31.800 --> 36:35.660]  So it can just be added as a tool in their arsenal.
[36:36.220 --> 36:38.720]  And I think that's kind of the best way to do it.
[36:38.820 --> 36:43.180]  But I would love, love to get more community organizers on board.
[36:43.340 --> 36:45.420]  And I'm certainly happy to be involved.
[36:45.420 --> 36:53.480]  If you would like to get my information, if you're involved in those organizations, to reach out directly and I will be more than happy to help.
[36:57.030 --> 37:00.270]  I have another virtual question that just popped in.
[37:01.950 --> 37:03.790]  Oh, yeah, I can walk.
[37:04.310 --> 37:04.830]  Sorry.
[37:06.390 --> 37:11.430]  So from the matrix chat, have you considered a more favorable country for something like this?
[37:11.550 --> 37:12.790]  Some nice EU country, maybe?
[37:13.750 --> 37:14.430]  I'm sorry.
[37:15.070 --> 37:16.310]  Can you say that again, please?
[37:16.410 --> 37:22.950]  Would you consider having your domain hosted in a more favorable country such as somewhere in the EU?
[37:26.590 --> 37:35.110]  So just so that we're on the same page here with these domain questions, we don't have like some service that we pay to host the website.
[37:35.110 --> 37:36.430]  I built the server.
[37:36.590 --> 37:37.610]  I own the server.
[37:37.790 --> 37:39.930]  And it is highly secure.
[37:40.310 --> 37:40.730]  Yeah.
[37:42.510 --> 37:46.390]  But I think the question is more about like a domain revocation.
[37:47.070 --> 37:52.870]  Because I believe the current TLD is .app, which is owned by Google right now.
[37:54.250 --> 37:54.730]  Yeah.
[37:55.030 --> 37:56.430]  But I mean, it's just the TLD.
[37:56.810 --> 37:56.990]  Yeah.
[37:57.750 --> 38:00.970]  It's just a registrar that you do it through.
[38:01.430 --> 38:04.610]  And .app is actually kind of cool because it mandates HTTPS.
[38:04.610 --> 38:07.350]  You can't even have a port 80 over a .app.
[38:07.550 --> 38:08.410]  It doesn't respond.
[38:08.890 --> 38:13.050]  So, you know, right there, you have full TLS, you know.
[38:13.310 --> 38:16.350]  And so, yeah, I'm not worried about domain revocation.
[38:16.350 --> 38:17.910]  I think we're good on that one.
[38:18.250 --> 38:18.450]  Okay.
[38:19.050 --> 38:19.210]  All right.
[38:19.330 --> 38:20.410]  Next person.
[38:21.210 --> 38:22.770]  So, camera's right here.
[38:23.050 --> 38:23.350]  Hi.
[38:23.950 --> 38:24.370]  Hello.
[38:24.850 --> 38:25.090]  Hello.
[38:27.330 --> 38:30.370]  So, I have two things to say.
[38:30.550 --> 38:44.570]  One is to point out, and I don't want this one to become extended because I do realize that it would complicate the application, but I just want to point out generally that ICE attacks essentially constitute something similar to a supply chain.
[38:44.570 --> 38:57.310]  And you have created a way to report and gather First Amendment protected speech and retransmit it for one specific phase of that, which is the appearance of ICE officers performing arrests.
[38:58.490 --> 39:03.330]  Actually, there's also a later stage, which is deportations that involve airports.
[39:03.570 --> 39:15.810]  There is an earlier stage, which is ICE officers getting redistributed across offices, and a second stage of their coming out on missions in groups from those respective offices.
[39:16.090 --> 39:21.830]  All of these are potentially things that can be observed by people and legally reported.
[39:22.990 --> 39:27.010]  And information on this is useful and of public interest.
[39:28.430 --> 39:37.290]  Of course, that kind of more complex data would make things more complicated, but it's something that maybe we all need to think about.
[39:37.290 --> 40:02.610]  In countries like Germany or Sweden, where the civil and criminal laws around having a conversation with airport staff or crews on aircraft about the fact that their plane or their airport is being used for deportation, such that they voluntarily on their own decide to take or not take certain
[40:02.610 --> 40:07.310]  actions within the scope of their job is a thing that happens frequently in those countries.
[40:07.470 --> 40:14.330]  And that is something that we may want to consider becoming part of our protected speech acts that we choose to take in this one.
[40:15.370 --> 40:17.190]  My second question is this one.
[40:18.570 --> 40:24.270]  I think you've recognized that you're under a great deal of pressure from the administration and that this could escalate.
[40:24.890 --> 40:29.970]  You've mentioned having a well thought out succession plan with your partner.
[40:30.950 --> 40:41.570]  But there have been a number of questions here about the prevention of false positives, about so-called warrant canaries, which are a very easy to implement non-technical task.
[40:42.410 --> 40:45.850]  Neither of the... and also a question about choice of jurisdiction.
[40:46.630 --> 40:53.050]  You have mentioned that you are hosting the server physically yourself, which of course gives Fourth Amendment protections, but those are not...
[40:53.050 --> 40:53.650]  Okay, got it.
[40:53.830 --> 40:56.470]  But this is not respected by the current administration.
[40:56.470 --> 40:58.410]  I just said I built the server.
[40:58.410 --> 40:59.970]  I didn't say I hosted it in my house.
[40:59.970 --> 41:00.150]  Nice.
[41:00.590 --> 41:00.710]  Okay.
[41:01.350 --> 41:01.870]  But...
[41:01.870 --> 41:02.310]  Excellent.
[41:02.830 --> 41:06.530]  But this is, of course, they have overwhelming firepower, right?
[41:06.990 --> 41:09.850]  And the question here is this.
[41:10.750 --> 41:32.490]  Can you share whether... or continue thinking about whether you would have a mechanism for collaborating carefully and selectively with vetted people with particular skill sets in the hacker community to provide you with additional advice, help you with feature development,
[41:32.490 --> 41:37.170]  and make sure that you have a safe succession plan for this service?
[41:37.170 --> 41:48.070]  Because right now, the most tremendous asset that you have provided to the world and to the country is your domain name and a functioning service.
[41:48.130 --> 41:51.050]  And no one here wants it to be the case.
[41:51.290 --> 41:56.190]  That increased pressure and repressions on you caused this service to fail.
[42:02.970 --> 42:04.430]  First of all, what do you say about that?
[42:04.490 --> 42:05.030]  He's amazing.
[42:05.630 --> 42:06.010]  Okay?
[42:06.110 --> 42:08.250]  That's a fantastic question.
[42:09.810 --> 42:10.630]  The first part...
[42:10.630 --> 42:11.570]  I mean, he's absolutely right.
[42:12.010 --> 42:16.870]  All the things that you said about reporting, the other things that are going on, are incredibly important.
[42:17.390 --> 42:21.590]  It's not what ICEBlock is designed to do, and I think it would overcomplicate the app.
[42:21.590 --> 42:22.770]  But yes, of course.
[42:22.950 --> 42:24.770]  I mean, we all should know about that.
[42:24.850 --> 42:26.390]  And yes, it is protected speech.
[42:26.530 --> 42:32.610]  Anything from a public official that you can see for your own eyes, it is 100% First Amendment protected.
[42:32.610 --> 42:34.270]  And you should absolutely report that.
[42:34.510 --> 42:40.450]  I don't think ICEBlock's the right platform for it, but, you know, good notes, right?
[42:41.790 --> 42:46.890]  As far as the second part is concerned, here's the issue.
[42:46.890 --> 42:59.030]  I've had, to say, a tremendous response from developers and people with technical expertise wanting to be involved and wanting to help is an understatement.
[42:59.370 --> 43:03.770]  In fact, you probably get three or four people a day that are highly qualified to do this.
[43:04.170 --> 43:05.130]  Here's the issue.
[43:05.550 --> 43:07.350]  I don't know, right?
[43:07.650 --> 43:23.370]  And how do you vet somebody that could be working secretly for the CIA or for the FBI or for any, you know, government, you know, department, all right?
[43:23.650 --> 43:30.650]  You know, they might seemingly have this great innocuous day job or, you know, they're all in because this is all they want to do.
[43:30.730 --> 43:38.750]  But it's incredibly difficult to seriously vet somebody if you haven't known them for a very long period of time.
[43:38.750 --> 43:47.770]  And so with my safety, my family's safety, my home at risk with all of this, it...
[43:48.550 --> 43:50.470]  Believe me when I say I would love help, okay?
[43:50.470 --> 43:52.850]  I'm supporting over a million users myself.
[43:53.170 --> 43:55.090]  There's not some giant company behind this.
[43:55.430 --> 44:02.530]  But it's really, really hard for me to put my trust in somebody and share the source code and share the access to this.
[44:02.530 --> 44:09.890]  Because, I mean, rightfully so, what you said is the biggest commodity is the domain name and the app service, right?
[44:10.110 --> 44:23.890]  So if I were to choose incorrectly, not because I didn't do my due diligence, but because there was no way to know, and somebody did something that hurt all of these users and put them at risk, that would be catastrophic.
[44:24.810 --> 44:30.070]  So, I gotta just say, so far, the answer is I'm just not the trusting person.
[44:30.490 --> 44:30.870]  So, no.
[44:31.230 --> 44:33.930]  I haven't entertained having anybody else involved.
[44:34.590 --> 44:35.070]  Okay.
[44:36.170 --> 44:36.490]  All right.
[44:36.790 --> 44:38.670]  Another one from The Matrix Chat.
[44:39.050 --> 44:46.070]  Have you received any legal demands or requests from the Trump administration yet, or anywhere on a federal level, or has this all been hot air so far?
[44:47.790 --> 44:48.630]  Great question.
[44:48.950 --> 44:51.370]  So, the answer is, it's all been hot air.
[44:51.370 --> 44:55.690]  They love to get in front of a mic and they love to make threatening comments.
[44:55.990 --> 45:01.490]  And the reality is, they have never even reached out with an email, let alone somebody knocking on my door.
[45:01.950 --> 45:17.650]  But, again, I've been extremely fortunate that some very, very high-powered attorneys have wanted to take this case on, even though there is no specific case yet, because nothing has happened.
[45:17.790 --> 45:20.210]  But they're there in case something does.
[45:20.490 --> 45:30.010]  And I now have, very, very thankfully, a full pro bono legal team of some of the finest legal minds that I have ever come across.
[45:30.290 --> 45:30.750]  Awesome.
[45:34.190 --> 45:35.010]  And Cameron's here.
[45:35.170 --> 45:35.430]  Okay.
[45:35.630 --> 45:36.170]  Hey, dude.
[45:36.430 --> 45:45.940]  Thanks a lot for building this app and your perseverance, especially, given all the stress and pressure that comes with it.
[45:47.180 --> 45:51.980]  I was just curious about when you first decided to build it.
[45:52.160 --> 45:57.680]  If you had any other ideas, or if this was one of many ideas and you chose this here.
[45:58.440 --> 46:02.000]  And if you've seen any other people building stuff that you're interested.
[46:03.460 --> 46:12.560]  And also, on the flip side, I think other people might be inspired on the adversarial side.
[46:12.560 --> 46:14.100]  And if you have any thoughts about that.
[46:14.300 --> 46:18.740]  So, like, people building stuff that reports instead of ICE agents reporting.
[46:19.900 --> 46:29.480]  Like developers around the states making an app that would report an immigrant, for example, that they see in a similar fashion that your app does.
[46:29.480 --> 46:36.400]  If you have any thoughts about us as a hacker sort of group addressing developers like that.
[46:37.120 --> 46:38.920]  And also, one last question, if you may.
[46:39.780 --> 46:40.920]  If you have any architectural...
[46:40.920 --> 46:41.800]  You gotta write these down.
[46:42.040 --> 46:42.500]  Oh, yeah.
[46:42.680 --> 46:42.980]  Sorry.
[46:44.080 --> 46:46.600]  You can answer it or you can put it off for another time.
[46:46.680 --> 46:48.000]  Do you have multiple questions right now?
[46:48.620 --> 46:49.560]  One last question.
[46:49.740 --> 46:52.500]  Can we just do one at a time?
[46:52.620 --> 46:53.260]  Can we do one at a time?
[46:53.260 --> 46:53.480]  Yeah, yeah.
[46:53.640 --> 46:54.060]  Go ahead, sorry.
[46:54.360 --> 46:54.700]  Can you ask the next one?
[46:54.980 --> 46:56.040]  Yeah, you can ask one at a time.
[46:56.300 --> 46:59.900]  Can you just, real quick, repeat the first one, I'll answer it.
[46:59.980 --> 47:00.860]  Repeat the second one, I'll answer it.
[47:01.100 --> 47:01.640]  Yeah, sorry.
[47:01.720 --> 47:05.880]  The first one is, if this was one of many ideas that you had.
[47:06.680 --> 47:07.100]  Oh, right on.
[47:07.320 --> 47:08.420]  And if you've seen any other.
[47:09.340 --> 47:19.180]  Yeah, so the answer is, when, in fact, on the night Trump was elected again, my brain started going crazy.
[47:19.860 --> 47:22.400]  I was thinking, what can I possibly do?
[47:22.640 --> 47:24.540]  How can I use any of my talents?
[47:24.680 --> 47:25.540]  Do I write a song?
[47:25.720 --> 47:26.960]  Do I put out a new album?
[47:27.280 --> 47:30.120]  Do I, you know, start doing public speeches?
[47:30.400 --> 47:31.020]  What do I do?
[47:31.020 --> 47:31.640]  Right?
[47:31.780 --> 47:32.580]  I had to do something.
[47:33.140 --> 47:35.800]  And there were a million ideas that were going through my head.
[47:35.920 --> 47:39.440]  Not really all from the software end of things, to be honest with you.
[47:39.480 --> 47:40.780]  It's not all a tech thing.
[47:42.460 --> 47:49.140]  But I kind of settled on what's the most important issue to me personally.
[47:49.980 --> 47:56.200]  And it was the targeting of individuals in this country that have done nothing wrong.
[47:56.840 --> 47:57.320]  Right?
[47:57.480 --> 48:06.020]  People who are going about their day in some of the most unthankful jobs that this country has to offer.
[48:07.700 --> 48:09.500]  And they're being demonized.
[48:09.660 --> 48:09.740]  Right?
[48:09.880 --> 48:17.380]  I mean, the only reason they're doing it is because if you give poor people somebody to hate, they won't realize that you're taking all the money away from it.
[48:17.480 --> 48:17.720]  Right?
[48:17.720 --> 48:20.260]  I mean, that's a very old playbook.
[48:20.840 --> 48:22.960]  And so that was what I settled on.
[48:23.220 --> 48:26.280]  And that's what I came up with with ICEBlock.
[48:26.480 --> 48:29.140]  I hope that answers it for you.
[48:29.560 --> 48:29.680]  Yeah.
[48:29.820 --> 48:30.120]  Thanks.
[48:30.740 --> 48:33.720]  And also, on the other side, if you have any thoughts about...
[48:34.900 --> 48:35.500]  Oh, the developers.
[48:35.940 --> 48:36.460]  Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[48:36.700 --> 48:37.320]  I remember.
[48:37.700 --> 48:38.080]  Okay.
[48:39.980 --> 48:41.140]  Here's what I would say to that.
[48:41.380 --> 48:43.720]  And this is going to be short, sweet, and to the point.
[48:44.360 --> 48:48.940]  Anybody who uses their talents to hurt people, fuck you.
[48:56.090 --> 49:08.230]  And just as a developer myself, if you have any documents or references that you use to make architectural decisions for such a security-focused and anonymous app that other people might be able to use?
[49:09.570 --> 49:10.710]  That's a great question.
[49:10.890 --> 49:11.670]  The answer is no.
[49:11.930 --> 49:13.490]  I didn't use anything.
[49:13.490 --> 49:22.190]  I spent three and a half months thinking and charting and refining and just going over it and over it and over it in my head.
[49:22.430 --> 49:30.850]  I mean, even when I'm doing like the next revision right now, which I've been furiously working on for weeks, every little thing that's brought up.
[49:31.010 --> 49:32.570]  Like, for example, I'll give you a perfect example.
[49:32.890 --> 49:40.290]  So some users say, well, since we can't have Android, can we have a web page that shows a map?
[49:40.410 --> 49:44.830]  You can't report a sighting, but can we see where all the sightings are in the country?
[49:45.110 --> 49:45.190]  Right?
[49:45.510 --> 49:52.370]  And then we can, you know, click on them and get whatever data, you know, it's the address or any notes that were entered.
[49:53.290 --> 49:58.310]  And as I'm doing this, I'm going, is this even possible to be anonymous?
[49:58.670 --> 49:58.830]  Right?
[49:59.270 --> 50:00.210]  Can you do this?
[50:00.290 --> 50:04.970]  Yes, you can say, okay, we don't have server logs, but then if something goes wrong, how do you do anything about it?
[50:05.230 --> 50:05.430]  Right?
[50:05.890 --> 50:09.970]  And so if you do have server logs, then you're logging every IP that comes automatically.
[50:10.610 --> 50:13.690]  And if you take the IPs out of the equation, like, I mean, do you know what I'm saying?
[50:13.810 --> 50:14.970]  Like, it just spirals.
[50:15.510 --> 50:17.610]  So there's so many people.
[50:17.870 --> 50:31.610]  And when I was on Off the Hook a few weeks back, Emmanuel and I were talking about this exact question, because so many people say, it's so easy to do Android.
[50:31.610 --> 50:34.070]  All you have to do is this, this and this, and it'll work on Android.
[50:35.170 --> 50:39.590]  Yeah, not really, because there's like 15 other things that you have to consider too.
[50:39.890 --> 50:41.750]  And the monetary costs for doing it.
[50:41.890 --> 50:41.970]  Right?
[50:42.210 --> 50:48.030]  And then you say, okay, but this is not a thousand users or a hundred users.
[50:48.310 --> 50:48.370]  Right?
[50:48.450 --> 50:51.230]  This is now over a million users just on iOS.
[50:51.730 --> 50:56.790]  And yes, there's a 56-44 split in the U.S. between iPhone and Android.
[50:57.410 --> 50:57.510]  Okay?
[50:57.930 --> 50:59.850]  With the heavy on the iPhone, by the way.
[50:59.970 --> 51:01.170]  56% is iPhone.
[51:01.330 --> 51:02.390]  44% is Android.
[51:03.950 --> 51:05.790]  But it's the immigrant community.
[51:05.830 --> 51:08.350]  It's the people who don't have as much money.
[51:08.530 --> 51:10.130]  They buy the cheaper devices, which are Android.
[51:10.330 --> 51:10.410]  Right?
[51:10.470 --> 51:11.450]  iPhones are very expensive.
[51:11.610 --> 51:12.610]  I know this.
[51:12.770 --> 51:12.870]  Right?
[51:13.550 --> 51:15.570]  But there's so many differences.
[51:15.570 --> 51:18.330]  It's not just, can you develop for Android?
[51:18.650 --> 51:19.950]  Yes, I can develop for Android.
[51:20.790 --> 51:22.750]  But Android allows sideloading.
[51:23.050 --> 51:24.970]  There's no review process.
[51:25.170 --> 51:27.230]  Like, you have to go through app review with Apple.
[51:27.370 --> 51:27.430]  Right?
[51:27.510 --> 51:31.070]  They make sure that you don't have malware being installed on a phone.
[51:31.610 --> 51:33.110]  But Android doesn't have that.
[51:33.190 --> 51:36.310]  You can download from a website and install it on an Android device.
[51:36.710 --> 51:48.330]  So how do I know, even if I were to bring ICEBlock to the Android, that there's not an app that will be developed that will circumvent all of the protections that I put in place with ICEBlock.
[51:48.490 --> 51:53.550]  Or, you know, somebody reverse engineers and it figures out this, this, and this, and puts out something else.
[51:53.710 --> 51:53.790]  Yeah.
[51:53.950 --> 51:55.770]  There's a lot more to be considered.
[51:55.970 --> 52:11.210]  And when you are talking about millions and millions of users, I mean, if you have a million on iPhone right now, when you bring it to Android, maybe you add three, four or five million more just on the Android side of things, because those are the people who need it the most.
[52:11.410 --> 52:11.510]  Right?
[52:12.090 --> 52:21.070]  And so now you have how many requests coming in because I can't push to a phone.
[52:21.290 --> 52:21.610]  Right?
[52:21.630 --> 52:23.150]  I would need a device ID to do that.
[52:23.250 --> 52:24.630]  I would need some kind of an identifier.
[52:25.190 --> 52:32.750]  So if the device queries and we keep users up to date, let's say you query...
[52:32.750 --> 52:36.630]  I mean, even something as horrible as every five minutes, okay?
[52:37.210 --> 52:39.490]  Which would keep no one safe, by the way.
[52:39.610 --> 52:41.970]  But let's just say we'll use five minutes as an example.
[52:42.530 --> 52:50.010]  If you query every five minutes and there's five million users using this, that's a lot of queries.
[52:50.050 --> 52:51.410]  That's a lot of bandwidth.
[52:51.610 --> 52:52.430]  That's a lot of data.
[52:53.290 --> 52:53.770]  Yeah.
[52:53.770 --> 52:55.150]  Who's housing that data?
[52:55.330 --> 52:58.770]  How much does it cost to serve that data to people?
[52:59.010 --> 53:00.310]  Who's funding that?
[53:00.550 --> 53:02.990]  Remember, I'm solely funding ICEBlock, right?
[53:03.290 --> 53:12.710]  So you can't just go to somebody like Cloudflare, for example, and go, hey, I'm going to use 10 petabytes of data every month.
[53:12.910 --> 53:13.870]  They're going to go, great.
[53:14.290 --> 53:14.710]  Great.
[53:14.990 --> 53:17.670]  So that'd be like 50 or $60,000 a month.
[53:17.670 --> 53:23.230]  You know, I got money, but I don't have that kind of money, right?
[53:23.570 --> 53:32.390]  And so there's a lot more to think about than just the simplicity of, can I build this for a platform?
[53:32.910 --> 53:40.150]  There was a way that it was done with iOS, and it's not a secret, it's backed by iCloud, right?
[53:40.150 --> 53:41.730]  That's where this database is.
[53:42.290 --> 53:53.510]  And so as an iPhone or an iOS developer, iCloud is installed with every user of any Apple device has an iCloud, and it's free, right?
[53:53.510 --> 54:02.390]  So with iCloud, I can have one public table for my app, and I don't pay every time there's a request, right?
[54:02.650 --> 54:07.930]  Now, they rate limit, and there's a whole host of other problems with that, okay?
[54:08.730 --> 54:10.310]  And I'm working on it.
[54:10.690 --> 54:15.730]  But there's a monetary side to this too, right?
[54:15.970 --> 54:18.830]  Unless we're going to start charging people, which I will never do.
[54:18.830 --> 54:22.470]  I will never charge somebody to do this, or to use this app.
[54:22.970 --> 54:26.450]  You have to consider more than just the code.
[54:27.050 --> 54:36.090]  There's a lot of stuff with how the database works, how many requests can it handle, what's the server processing power, right?
[54:36.250 --> 54:41.430]  If you have a four core CPU with eight gigs of RAM, can it handle a million requests every hour?
[54:41.830 --> 54:43.350]  No, it can't, right?
[54:43.390 --> 54:44.930]  You'll overload it, you'll crash the server.
[54:45.250 --> 54:46.850]  So how do we keep it stable?
[54:46.850 --> 54:54.470]  And I could go on and on and on and on and on, but trust me when I tell you, I think about everything, to the S degree.
[54:56.370 --> 54:56.730]  Thanks.
[54:59.810 --> 55:03.470]  Hi, thanks so much for doing this.
[55:03.730 --> 55:13.970]  My question is actually about like a web service, and you answered the technical side of that, which sounds like there are considerations and it's hard and curious to think more about that.
[55:14.650 --> 55:19.830]  The other side of it I was thinking about is, I guess, just the data access side of it.
[55:19.950 --> 55:27.470]  Like, obviously, it's good for people who need to watch out for ICE to be able to have more data and like, see all the data points and see a map, etc.
[55:27.470 --> 55:31.650]  Is there a disadvantage in terms of ICE having that data?
[55:32.070 --> 55:37.670]  Like, is there a reason that that would be a negative or is it purely kind of a technical question?
[55:37.670 --> 55:40.490]  No, that's a fantastic question.
[55:40.690 --> 56:00.370]  And so, this is kind of what I was getting at when I was giving the speech is, the way that I've structured the data is in such a way that even if they were to bang down my door, issue a subpoena, I was hauled off, and they got everything from the database.
[56:01.010 --> 56:03.770]  This is... you guys are technical.
[56:03.970 --> 56:05.290]  I'm going to tell you exactly what it is.
[56:05.350 --> 56:06.110]  This is what they get.
[56:06.670 --> 56:10.490]  They get a created timestamp.
[56:10.810 --> 56:12.770]  They get a modified timestamp.
[56:13.230 --> 56:24.170]  They get a custom-packed decimal that, if they even knew how I packed it and they could unpack it, would give them nothing more than a five-decimal latitude and longitude.
[56:24.350 --> 56:25.190]  That's all it is.
[56:26.190 --> 56:30.870]  They get a marked for deletion Boolean column.
[56:32.430 --> 56:33.030]  That's it.
[56:33.490 --> 56:34.650]  Oh, yeah, there's one other.
[56:34.750 --> 56:35.510]  I can't disclose that.
[56:35.790 --> 56:38.110]  But it has nothing to do with anything that you would care about.
[56:38.790 --> 56:39.810]  But yeah, that's it.
[56:40.030 --> 56:41.070]  There's nothing there.
[56:41.270 --> 56:44.970]  So, even if they got a hold of everything, this is what they know.
[56:45.590 --> 56:46.590]  We were here.
[56:47.850 --> 56:48.470]  That's it.
[56:49.090 --> 56:49.970]  We were here.
[56:53.850 --> 56:54.350]  All right.
[56:54.550 --> 56:56.570]  So, we're going to switch back to the matrix really quick.
[56:56.750 --> 56:56.950]  I'm sorry.
[56:57.610 --> 57:04.570]  So, have you considered a collaboration with the EFF or the ACLU who have decades of facing off directly against the government?
[57:06.310 --> 57:12.130]  The answer is I have EFF on my legal team and ACLU on my legal team.
[57:12.350 --> 57:13.290]  So, the answer is yes.
[57:13.290 --> 57:14.690]  They are both supporting me.
[57:14.690 --> 57:15.570]  Awesome.
[57:16.590 --> 57:30.330]  And by the way, EFF, one of the security analysts there is one of the people who did a reverse engineer on the app and wrote a report on it, which then became an article for some media publications.
[57:31.310 --> 57:35.810]  And he called me up and said, I reversed engineered your app.
[57:36.290 --> 57:37.710]  Here's what I think it's doing.
[57:37.890 --> 57:38.750]  Correct me if I'm wrong.
[57:39.190 --> 57:40.430]  And he got darn close.
[57:40.630 --> 57:44.310]  I'd say he got about 90% of what it was doing.
[57:44.650 --> 57:45.970]  So, he was very, very good.
[57:46.090 --> 57:52.090]  But he was able to track and verify that there is nothing, nothing that leaves the device.
[57:52.090 --> 58:01.510]  In fact, one of the things in the help file that I state, and I had a really hard time writing this because it goes against my core beliefs, to be honest with you.
[58:03.190 --> 58:11.790]  We have to, according to Apple's guidelines as a developer, allow both when in use and always location permissions.
[58:11.790 --> 58:17.630]  I wanted to do this only with always location permissions because that's how you can keep yourself the safest.
[58:17.870 --> 58:22.030]  That's how it updates the greatest number of times and tracks all the locations.
[58:22.430 --> 58:25.290]  But it only tracks it on device.
[58:25.650 --> 58:31.730]  That data is never, never captured by the app nor sent anywhere.
[58:31.730 --> 58:32.610]  Okay?
[58:33.510 --> 58:42.250]  But because we had to do that, I ended up doing a full rewrite before the initial launch to implement when in use authorization as well.
[58:42.610 --> 58:51.890]  And the difference is when in use, you have to travel 500 meters or switch cell towers in order for your location to update when the app is not in the foreground.
[58:52.470 --> 58:57.030]  With always, we can track as you walk, right?
[58:57.150 --> 58:58.590]  And that's what's going to keep you the safest.
[58:59.370 --> 59:04.950]  But I was able to implement some stuff that made when in use work pretty well as well.
[59:06.110 --> 59:22.610]  So, you know, it was hard for me to tell people, you know, that you have this choice and that I would never normally recommend using always ever, by the way, for any app, because they're all tracking you.
[59:22.610 --> 59:30.750]  Not ICEBlock, of course, like I've told you, but every other app that's out there as far as I know, if you set it to always, they're tracking your movements.
[59:31.090 --> 59:34.670]  And so I would steer away from that as far away as I could.
[59:35.490 --> 59:43.330]  But I had to write this thing in the help file that said, I wouldn't recommend this normally, but this is how it's going to keep you the safest.
[59:43.330 --> 59:48.290]  And I think it scared some people until these independent verifications were done.
[59:48.290 --> 59:52.770]  And now I think people understand that the app doesn't do anything to fairness.
[59:53.410 --> 59:53.650]  Awesome.
[59:54.210 --> 59:54.510]  Thank you.
[59:58.220 --> 01:00:01.620]  Hey, so I've got a question that dovetails nicely with that.
[01:00:01.620 --> 01:00:13.820]  So there's a lot of secure software that probably people in this room work on that is developed in the open and that is used primarily by at risk users, including things like Tor, Signal, SecureDrop.
[01:00:14.080 --> 01:00:18.300]  And so that's great because it makes it easy for folks to contribute.
[01:00:18.600 --> 01:00:19.560]  Maybe you don't want that.
[01:00:19.720 --> 01:00:30.560]  I understand that could be hard, but it also makes it easier for people to audit and gain assurance that the app is doing what you claim without having to have, you know, EFF reverse engineer it.
[01:00:30.560 --> 01:00:33.360]  Would you be open to making the app open-source?
[01:00:38.860 --> 01:00:42.840]  Oh, everybody's going to hate me for this answer, but absolutely not.
[01:00:43.020 --> 01:00:46.460]  And not for the reasons that you might think.
[01:00:47.480 --> 01:00:49.380]  It's not about that.
[01:00:49.380 --> 01:00:53.200]  I don't want it to be open-source and I don't want to share this with other people.
[01:00:54.180 --> 01:01:00.540]  I don't want anybody from the government to have their hooks in how I'm doing it.
[01:01:00.540 --> 01:01:01.420]  I'm doing what I'm doing.
[01:01:02.980 --> 01:01:06.180]  And once you go open-source, everybody has access to it.
[01:01:07.940 --> 01:01:10.860]  So I'm just going to keep the code base private at this time.
[01:01:11.960 --> 01:01:16.400]  What would the government learn that you're concerned about in the app?
[01:01:16.560 --> 01:01:17.740]  Well, I'm not going to answer that.
[01:01:17.740 --> 01:01:19.800]  Because they can reverse engineer too, I'm pretty sure.
[01:01:20.720 --> 01:01:24.880]  They can, but they can't get everything from reverse engineering.
[01:01:25.200 --> 01:01:28.520]  Much like the EFF couldn't get everything from reverse engineering.
[01:01:32.190 --> 01:01:33.030]  I'm sorry.
[01:01:33.670 --> 01:01:36.370]  I'm finding this very concerning, but I guess okay.
[01:01:36.370 --> 01:01:36.510]  Thanks.
[01:01:43.530 --> 01:01:44.130]  Hi.
[01:01:44.470 --> 01:01:46.710]  I have a really quick question actually.
[01:01:47.830 --> 01:01:53.770]  It's about whether or not there will be an Android version of the app.
[01:01:54.810 --> 01:01:55.310]  And...
[01:01:55.310 --> 01:01:55.770]  We didn't.
[01:01:55.950 --> 01:01:56.190]  Oh.
[01:01:56.290 --> 01:01:56.990]  Oh, okay.
[01:01:57.190 --> 01:01:57.330]  Sorry.
[01:01:57.330 --> 01:02:01.930]  Then I just also wanted to follow up.
[01:02:02.050 --> 01:02:11.050]  There is kind of alternative push notification, kind of open-source push notification architecture called Unified Push.
[01:02:11.790 --> 01:02:14.590]  You don't have to use Firebase Cloud Messaging.
[01:02:14.790 --> 01:02:19.010]  Because I know there's some concerns about tracking through that.
[01:02:20.770 --> 01:02:21.250]  Yeah.
[01:02:21.530 --> 01:02:22.750]  So just wanted to put that out there.
[01:02:22.990 --> 01:02:23.190]  Thanks.
[01:02:26.530 --> 01:02:28.390]  I wouldn't use Firebase anyways.
[01:02:29.910 --> 01:02:32.630]  But no, I get it.
[01:02:32.950 --> 01:02:34.910]  Like I said, I'm thinking about Android.
[01:02:35.110 --> 01:02:36.990]  I'm trying to figure out how to do it.
[01:02:37.050 --> 01:02:41.570]  And I'm very hopeful that someday it will happen.
[01:02:41.570 --> 01:02:48.110]  I'm not stuck on iOS for any other reason than all of the things that I've already discussed.
[01:02:49.310 --> 01:02:55.090]  that were advantageous, you know, to the iOS platform versus an Android platform.
[01:02:55.510 --> 01:02:56.670]  But I'm looking into it.
[01:02:56.750 --> 01:02:57.590]  I got my thinking cap up.
[01:03:02.050 --> 01:03:02.490]  Hello.
[01:03:03.270 --> 01:03:04.090]  I'm ManChicken.
[01:03:04.310 --> 01:03:08.650]  And I have 27 years of professional software and security experience.
[01:03:09.130 --> 01:03:10.830]  Several years before when I was a wee lad.
[01:03:11.410 --> 01:03:13.010]  And I have three questions for you today.
[01:03:13.710 --> 01:03:15.190]  The first one is...
[01:03:15.190 --> 01:03:17.030]  I'm going to bang these all out real quick.
[01:03:17.130 --> 01:03:20.110]  And then I'll walk off and you can answer them however you like.
[01:03:20.970 --> 01:03:21.790]  Question one.
[01:03:22.510 --> 01:03:26.350]  How is what you're describing distinguishable from security by obscurity?
[01:03:26.570 --> 01:03:28.150]  Which is always a lie.
[01:03:30.150 --> 01:03:31.230]  The second one.
[01:03:31.530 --> 01:03:32.870]  You say your servers are hardened.
[01:03:33.030 --> 01:03:36.130]  But why do you think that's the case if you haven't engaged the hacker community?
[01:03:37.370 --> 01:03:38.310]  And then...
[01:03:40.110 --> 01:03:45.970]  The third question, and I do apologize, I genuinely mean this and I do not mean any offense or insult.
[01:03:46.530 --> 01:03:51.170]  Do you think that it is problematic that you're making decisions for a whole community all by yourself?
[01:03:51.990 --> 01:03:52.650]  Thank you.
[01:03:56.870 --> 01:03:57.350]  Interesting.
[01:04:02.530 --> 01:04:03.990]  Let's start with the server one.
[01:04:05.570 --> 01:04:11.630]  I don't think I've ever said that I haven't engaged anybody else to test the security of what I do.
[01:04:13.610 --> 01:04:18.010]  You know, there are certainly people that I have known for many, many years.
[01:04:18.010 --> 01:04:20.530]  I've been in the tech world for over 25 years.
[01:04:23.450 --> 01:04:30.050]  So, you know, just because I haven't made it public to the hacker community doesn't mean that the server isn't secure.
[01:04:30.050 --> 01:04:39.330]  As far as do I think it's problematic that I'm making decisions for an entire community, I developed an app.
[01:04:39.510 --> 01:04:48.050]  It just happened to get incredibly popular and be seen as something that was really helpful to people all around this country.
[01:04:48.490 --> 01:04:51.370]  So, I don't make decisions for anybody.
[01:04:51.690 --> 01:04:59.150]  I make decisions for ICEBlock and how the software is going to move forward because it's my app.
[01:04:59.690 --> 01:05:02.490]  So, I'm not really sure how that works.
[01:05:02.610 --> 01:05:03.170]  And I'm sorry.
[01:05:03.290 --> 01:05:04.970]  I forget the first question that you asked.
[01:05:05.610 --> 01:05:06.930]  Do you remember the first question?
[01:05:07.230 --> 01:05:07.570]  Can I check in?
[01:05:08.950 --> 01:05:09.850]  I can ask.
[01:05:10.510 --> 01:05:10.950]  Okay.
[01:05:15.220 --> 01:05:15.660]  Sorry.
[01:05:15.820 --> 01:05:17.320]  I'll restate the first question.
[01:05:17.440 --> 01:05:20.480]  I should probably pull it back out so I don't have to try and remember it from memory.
[01:05:21.580 --> 01:05:22.180]  All right.
[01:05:22.300 --> 01:05:26.760]  So, how is what you're describing with regards specifically to the software?
[01:05:26.900 --> 01:05:28.360]  Oh, the security by obscurity.
[01:05:28.480 --> 01:05:28.740]  Yes.
[01:05:28.740 --> 01:05:33.540]  How is it distinguishable from security by obscurity with your custom decimals and all that?
[01:05:33.640 --> 01:05:33.720]  You're 100% right.
[01:05:33.720 --> 01:05:34.320]  Security by obscurity is terrible.
[01:05:34.600 --> 01:05:35.700]  I don't do any of that.
[01:05:36.020 --> 01:05:40.880]  There's nothing like that happening in the app or anything else I do.
[01:05:41.000 --> 01:05:49.620]  In fact, anytime that's even suggested when I'm bouncing ideas off of people that I trust, I absolutely say I would never do that.
[01:05:49.700 --> 01:05:50.360]  That's so stupid.
[01:05:50.360 --> 01:05:55.380]  But just because you name something John instead of password doesn't mean it's any more secure.
[01:05:55.620 --> 01:05:55.940]  That's...
[01:05:55.940 --> 01:05:56.200]  Yeah.
[01:05:56.560 --> 01:05:57.940]  Security by obscurity is ridiculous.
[01:05:58.420 --> 01:05:58.620]  So, no.
[01:05:58.940 --> 01:06:00.040]  Of course that's all.
[01:06:00.580 --> 01:06:01.120]  Oh.
[01:06:02.440 --> 01:06:02.980]  Yeah.
[01:06:03.180 --> 01:06:03.260]  Yeah.
[01:06:03.360 --> 01:06:03.900]  Come back up.
[01:06:04.460 --> 01:06:04.980]  Wait.
[01:06:05.060 --> 01:06:17.160]  Didn't you just say just a minute ago that you don't want to share bits of what data is being stored in the database and how the apps work and you can't share it and that, you know, the government can't reverse engineer it and stuff.
[01:06:17.500 --> 01:06:18.940]  That's security through obscurity.
[01:06:19.620 --> 01:06:22.780]  My friend here has absolutely captured the meaning of my question.
[01:06:22.920 --> 01:06:23.280]  Apologies.
[01:06:23.400 --> 01:06:24.460]  I did not word it very well.
[01:06:24.460 --> 01:06:24.760]  Can you hear them?
[01:06:25.900 --> 01:06:26.640]  No, Liz.
[01:06:26.800 --> 01:06:27.500]  You have to repeat.
[01:06:27.620 --> 01:06:27.800]  Yeah.
[01:06:28.700 --> 01:06:31.960]  Because of how the signal is, you actually have to be up here for him to hear you.
[01:06:32.600 --> 01:06:32.900]  So...
[01:06:32.900 --> 01:06:33.060]  That's okay.
[01:06:33.260 --> 01:06:34.160]  Liz, you heard it.
[01:06:34.260 --> 01:06:34.960]  Just tell me.
[01:06:35.060 --> 01:06:36.800]  Yeah, I kind of missed half of it.
[01:06:36.860 --> 01:06:37.220]  I'm sorry.
[01:06:37.520 --> 01:06:38.000]  Oh, okay.
[01:06:39.300 --> 01:06:39.920]  I'm running.
[01:06:40.920 --> 01:06:41.660]  I'm running.
[01:06:42.060 --> 01:06:42.720]  Run faster.
[01:06:43.060 --> 01:06:43.820]  Give me a second.
[01:06:43.980 --> 01:06:44.460]  Ran faster.
[01:06:45.320 --> 01:06:54.220]  So, specifically what I'm talking about, and again, I apologize if this seems pointed because I do not mean it that way and I can't express enough that I do not mean it that way.
[01:06:54.220 --> 01:06:54.580]  It's okay.
[01:06:55.200 --> 01:06:55.640]  It's okay.
[01:06:56.660 --> 01:06:57.900]  Oh, there's the camera.
[01:06:58.720 --> 01:06:58.960]  Yeah.
[01:06:59.220 --> 01:06:59.340]  Hi.
[01:07:00.060 --> 01:07:00.540]  Hi.
[01:07:01.980 --> 01:07:04.820]  You talked about the packed decimals and all that.
[01:07:05.520 --> 01:07:06.000]  Yeah.
[01:07:06.080 --> 01:07:07.180]  I'm an old school pearler.
[01:07:07.180 --> 01:07:09.180]  We had a whole function called pack, right?
[01:07:09.260 --> 01:07:11.820]  Like, it was a whole thing where people thought they were doing cryptography.
[01:07:12.140 --> 01:07:13.380]  When all they were doing...
[01:07:13.380 --> 01:07:14.020]  Hold up.
[01:07:14.120 --> 01:07:15.160]  Let me finish.
[01:07:15.320 --> 01:07:15.700]  Let me finish.
[01:07:16.780 --> 01:07:27.020]  So, like, when you take those types of values and you pack it in there and say the government's not going to figure it out, they have a literal army of cryptographers that will figure it out.
[01:07:27.020 --> 01:07:28.520]  They are better at math than all of us.
[01:07:28.640 --> 01:07:36.420]  And they've got economies of scale on that that you and I will never see or even probably understand, unless we were feds.
[01:07:36.600 --> 01:07:39.760]  Which, if anybody in here understands that, you might be a fed.
[01:07:40.480 --> 01:07:50.300]  So, like, that's kind of my question is that is the definition of security by obscurity in my professional opinion.
[01:07:50.640 --> 01:07:53.540]  And I'm just wondering how this is different from that.
[01:07:55.480 --> 01:07:56.160]  That's fair.
[01:07:56.280 --> 01:08:03.920]  And perhaps I misspoke because in no way was I suggesting that the pack decimal was a security thing.
[01:08:04.080 --> 01:08:05.600]  I'm not suggesting that at all.
[01:08:05.940 --> 01:08:11.840]  In fact, the pack decimal is because a five decimal latitude and a five decimal longitude just take a lot more space.
[01:08:11.840 --> 01:08:12.860]  So, I packed it down.
[01:08:13.300 --> 01:08:24.000]  All I was saying is that, sure, their people could crack it or they could get access to the source code of the app or something if they seized all my tech equipment and my hard drives or something.
[01:08:24.180 --> 01:08:25.820]  And then they would know how to unpack it.
[01:08:26.060 --> 01:08:28.920]  My point was simply that there's nothing there.
[01:08:29.160 --> 01:08:33.300]  They would only see the latitude and longitude of where they already know ICE ones.
[01:08:33.640 --> 01:08:34.500]  That's all I was saying.
[01:08:34.760 --> 01:08:36.840]  I wasn't talking about security at all.
[01:08:37.040 --> 01:08:37.940]  Okay, yeah.
[01:08:38.700 --> 01:08:43.820]  I agree with you that, like, oftentimes the data collection itself is the vulnerability.
[01:08:43.820 --> 01:08:48.580]  So, I do applaud the fact that you're paying very close attention to collecting as little data as possible.
[01:08:50.140 --> 01:08:56.520]  I would very strongly encourage you to consider open sourcing and engaging the hacker community.
[01:08:56.660 --> 01:09:01.320]  I understand that you are making very reasonable threat assessments with regard to your family and your home.
[01:09:01.480 --> 01:09:06.780]  And as a father of three myself, my heart breaks with the difficulty you're going through.
[01:09:09.920 --> 01:09:25.600]  But the safety that you want for yourself, your family, and your project is better in the hands of the whole community, where the sun can shine, where we can all see it, where we can all verify that this is safe, that this is trustworthy.
[01:09:25.600 --> 01:09:31.760]  And then, if the government decides that they want to come in and fuck around, you've defanged them.
[01:09:31.960 --> 01:09:33.540]  Okay, you've already put the app out.
[01:09:33.660 --> 01:09:40.800]  They can't say they've confiscated the app, reverse engineered it, and then found 10 gigs of kiddie porn in your database or some crap.
[01:09:40.800 --> 01:09:42.480]  They could actually...
[01:09:42.480 --> 01:09:44.680]  We could audit that, right?
[01:09:44.720 --> 01:09:47.040]  Like, we could audit that as a community.
[01:09:47.040 --> 01:09:48.300]  We could all be there.
[01:09:48.440 --> 01:09:51.480]  We could all ensure the government would have it.
[01:09:51.540 --> 01:09:55.120]  But like, to your point, there's no dangerous data there.
[01:09:55.460 --> 01:10:03.780]  If there's no dangerous data there, then it doesn't matter if the threat actors get it, even if the threat actors are the people who are supposed to be serving and protecting.
[01:10:05.280 --> 01:10:05.600]  Yeah.
[01:10:06.160 --> 01:10:09.680]  I mean, look, it's something that I would have to seriously think about.
[01:10:10.280 --> 01:10:14.840]  I'm not going to commit to you today that that's going to be something that's going to happen.
[01:10:15.120 --> 01:10:18.300]  But, you know, you never know what might happen in the future.
[01:10:18.940 --> 01:10:19.260]  Okay.
[01:10:19.480 --> 01:10:20.020]  No problem.
[01:10:20.140 --> 01:10:20.620]  I'm a hacker.
[01:10:20.640 --> 01:10:23.540]  So I'm going to always want everything to be out in the sunlight.
[01:10:23.780 --> 01:10:24.800]  And that's just who I am.
[01:10:24.940 --> 01:10:25.740]  So I appreciate it.
[01:10:25.780 --> 01:10:26.940]  I totally get it.
[01:10:27.260 --> 01:10:27.860]  I totally understand.
[01:10:27.940 --> 01:10:28.780]  Can you do some rituals for real quick?
[01:10:28.940 --> 01:10:29.160]  What?
[01:10:29.300 --> 01:10:30.280]  I have a couple more rituals.
[01:10:30.580 --> 01:10:31.120]  Oh, yeah, go for it.
[01:10:31.580 --> 01:10:32.700]  Because they've been waiting in a minute.
[01:10:32.700 --> 01:10:33.060]  I'm sorry.
[01:10:33.780 --> 01:10:44.160]  So in terms of your server, why choose a U.S.-based company that allows easier access to warrant requests as opposed to a server in another non-Five Eyes country or a Bulletproof server?
[01:10:46.100 --> 01:10:48.640]  Because I've had the server for 20 years.
[01:10:48.980 --> 01:10:49.260]  Yeah.
[01:10:49.260 --> 01:10:51.640]  It was there, to be honest with you.
[01:10:52.020 --> 01:10:52.660]  That's why.
[01:10:53.200 --> 01:10:54.860]  If I need to move it, I'll move it.
[01:10:54.940 --> 01:10:55.620]  It's just a website.
[01:10:55.920 --> 01:10:57.880]  I mean, it's not a big deal.
[01:10:58.300 --> 01:10:58.860]  Yeah.
[01:10:59.020 --> 01:11:00.760]  I think that's pretty reasonable.
[01:11:00.940 --> 01:11:02.780]  Another question from Beatrix.
[01:11:02.780 --> 01:11:07.980]  Is there a risk that Apple could cave to legal pressure and delist the app from the App Store?
[01:11:09.560 --> 01:11:14.000]  I think there's always a concern that that could happen.
[01:11:14.000 --> 01:11:20.800]  But I will tell you that when the app was first submitted to the App Store, it was initially denied.
[01:11:20.800 --> 01:11:27.760]  And it wasn't denied for any other reason than Apple went, I don't know what to do with this.
[01:11:27.860 --> 01:11:30.720]  Because nothing has ever been done like this before.
[01:11:30.920 --> 01:11:39.600]  I mean, any kind of social networking app has a moderation team in place, has user accounts in place, has all kinds of safeguard things in place.
[01:11:39.600 --> 01:11:43.840]  And they're also usually collecting data or they're monetizing it in some way.
[01:11:44.040 --> 01:11:52.320]  And so I went back and forth with Apple's legal and Apple's higher ups and app review for three weeks before this app was released.
[01:11:52.320 --> 01:12:04.020]  And we had meetings on almost a daily, if not every other day basis for 30, 45 minutes at a time where they were asking me, like, what do you mean you're not collecting data?
[01:12:04.140 --> 01:12:05.600]  What do you mean you're not monetizing this?
[01:12:05.600 --> 01:12:08.680]  What do you mean you don't have a moderation team in place?
[01:12:09.360 --> 01:12:13.280]  It's like, you know, once I explained it to them, they got it.
[01:12:13.600 --> 01:12:19.020]  Their legal looked into everything and said, no, this is absolutely protected speech.
[01:12:19.020 --> 01:12:19.700]  We're good.
[01:12:19.940 --> 01:12:22.980]  And we're going to sign off on going ahead with this.
[01:12:23.160 --> 01:12:39.300]  So it's very, very difficult for me to believe that Apple will now all of a sudden reverse course, especially now that, you know, you don't have the White House press briefing talking about it or, you know, Kristi Noem, you know, going on Fox News every day talking about it.
[01:12:39.500 --> 01:12:44.280]  So I think the fanfare has died down a little bit while the user base has grown exponentially.
[01:12:44.640 --> 01:12:47.620]  So, no, I don't really see Apple doing much of any.
[01:12:48.120 --> 01:12:48.460]  Okay.
[01:12:48.800 --> 01:12:49.280]  All right.
[01:12:49.400 --> 01:12:52.700]  And one more question, one more matrix question, then we'll go back to in-person.
[01:12:53.180 --> 01:13:01.160]  What feelings do you have about the people taking advantage of the incentives and massive budgets to get hired on at the inside of ICE?
[01:13:02.360 --> 01:13:03.380]  Oh, I see.
[01:13:03.500 --> 01:13:04.700]  No, I see what the question is saying.
[01:13:04.820 --> 01:13:08.380]  You were talking about the bonuses now that they're offering to sign on.
[01:13:08.580 --> 01:13:08.820]  You're worried.
[01:13:08.940 --> 01:13:11.260]  $50,000 if you sign on to be an ICE agent.
[01:13:11.420 --> 01:13:13.100]  They did away with the age requirements.
[01:13:13.100 --> 01:13:16.540]  Now somebody as low as 18 can become an ICE agent.
[01:13:17.160 --> 01:13:21.080]  And, you know, it was four weeks of training or something stupid like that.
[01:13:21.420 --> 01:13:21.640]  Yeah.
[01:13:22.160 --> 01:13:24.420]  This is the Nazi playbook, right?
[01:13:24.600 --> 01:13:27.540]  I mean, that's as pure and simple as we can put this.
[01:13:27.540 --> 01:13:29.520]  This is the same thing they did.
[01:13:29.660 --> 01:13:30.880]  This is Hitler Youth, right?
[01:13:31.240 --> 01:13:32.500]  So you get them young.
[01:13:33.000 --> 01:13:35.940]  You get them, you know, onto your side.
[01:13:36.120 --> 01:13:41.340]  And we have a constitution that makes sure that the U.S.
[01:13:41.520 --> 01:13:44.620]  military cannot be deployed on its own citizens.
[01:13:45.020 --> 01:13:47.640]  So instead, what they did was they went around that.
[01:13:47.860 --> 01:13:52.860]  And this is all part of Project 2025, where they said, okay, you know what?
[01:13:52.940 --> 01:13:53.840]  We're going to take ICE.
[01:13:54.040 --> 01:13:55.780]  We're going to give them $170 billion.
[01:13:56.320 --> 01:13:58.980]  Now we can build concentration camps all over this country.
[01:13:59.520 --> 01:14:02.160]  And we're going to hire tens of thousands of more agents.
[01:14:02.160 --> 01:14:07.640]  Well, now we have a paramilitary force in this country controlled by an authoritarian dictator.
[01:14:08.800 --> 01:14:12.960]  So, you know, we now basically have his own private army.
[01:14:13.120 --> 01:14:16.960]  And as young as they get, that's what they want.
[01:14:17.800 --> 01:14:18.400]  All right.
[01:14:18.860 --> 01:14:20.160]  I guess one quick one.
[01:14:20.340 --> 01:14:22.280]  Did you watch that South Park episode of ICE?
[01:14:23.040 --> 01:14:24.240]  I sure did.
[01:14:24.660 --> 01:14:25.060]  Awesome.
[01:14:25.920 --> 01:14:27.020]  What did you think of it?
[01:14:27.980 --> 01:14:28.500]  Awesome.
[01:14:28.680 --> 01:14:29.200]  I love training.
[01:14:30.080 --> 01:14:30.720]  Go ahead.
[01:14:31.800 --> 01:14:32.280]  Hello.
[01:14:33.260 --> 01:14:37.540]  I guess so about the security by obscurity thing.
[01:14:37.700 --> 01:14:48.140]  So if you're not actually making money off of the app, but it's still proprietary, and there's no security by obscurity, then I don't actually understand the rationale for not making it open at all.
[01:14:48.300 --> 01:15:05.440]  But if you didn't want to make it open, I guess like, but you still want to be transparent and show that you're not doing security by obscurity, I think it would be really helpful to publish like a detailed white paper that explains your threat model explains the data flow explains exactly like what
[01:15:05.440 --> 01:15:08.860]  all of the threats you think there are what your mitigations are and how you're going about doing that.
[01:15:09.380 --> 01:15:12.580]  And then that will be at least transparent and like other proprietary.
[01:15:12.580 --> 01:15:23.840]  So like iMessage, Apple makes it, it's proprietary, but they publish detailed like schematics of how everything works exactly specifically so that security researchers can understand it.
[01:15:24.080 --> 01:15:27.540]  So I think it'd be cool to, you know, if you did that for your F2.
[01:15:27.540 --> 01:15:33.400]  And also, you might want to consider a professional security audit from a company like your 53.
[01:15:35.040 --> 01:15:41.200]  There's definitely resources and funding for getting these for free for open projects, but that will be really helpful too.
[01:15:41.360 --> 01:15:44.260]  And you can like get a pen test and then publish the report.
[01:15:45.960 --> 01:15:46.740]  Fair enough.
[01:15:47.420 --> 01:15:48.360]  Something to consider.
[01:15:51.660 --> 01:15:52.800]  Hi, it's me again.
[01:15:53.320 --> 01:15:53.720]  Hey.
[01:15:54.120 --> 01:15:54.460]  Hi.
[01:15:55.940 --> 01:15:59.660]  So Are there like four people in the room and you guys just wrote?
[01:15:59.840 --> 01:16:01.720]  Oh, yeah, there's like a you have a huge audience.
[01:16:02.380 --> 01:16:06.780]  I just, you know, I can't see any of you.
[01:16:07.380 --> 01:16:08.480]  Turn the camera around.
[01:16:08.620 --> 01:16:09.160]  Let me see the audience.
[01:16:09.520 --> 01:16:10.040]  One sec.
[01:16:10.340 --> 01:16:12.300]  Is it okay if I turn the camera on you?
[01:16:13.100 --> 01:16:13.980]  I'm not gonna give.
[01:16:15.000 --> 01:16:17.760]  Does anybody object to the camera getting turned on you?
[01:16:17.840 --> 01:16:17.860]  Yeah.
[01:16:17.860 --> 01:16:18.280]  That's more important.
[01:16:19.420 --> 01:16:20.840]  I'm not hearing a yes.
[01:16:21.440 --> 01:16:23.220]  Yeah, I'm really, really shaking.
[01:16:23.400 --> 01:16:23.820]  There's no no.
[01:16:24.100 --> 01:16:25.260]  So I think that's the more important.
[01:16:25.400 --> 01:16:25.840]  I can't.
[01:16:26.640 --> 01:16:27.160]  You can't do it.
[01:16:27.340 --> 01:16:29.720]  Everybody hold up your government issued driver's license.
[01:16:32.460 --> 01:16:34.300]  Yeah, no, there's a decent crowd in here.
[01:16:34.440 --> 01:16:35.040]  If it's okay.
[01:16:35.180 --> 01:16:35.400]  Cool.
[01:16:36.720 --> 01:16:37.580]  I'll swing it around.
[01:16:37.920 --> 01:16:38.660]  It's not okay.
[01:16:38.840 --> 01:16:39.360]  Don't worry if you can.
[01:16:40.080 --> 01:16:42.140]  Well, I, I'm in charge of that.
[01:16:42.240 --> 01:16:42.440]  Don't worry.
[01:16:43.180 --> 01:16:43.560]  Yeah.
[01:16:43.860 --> 01:16:44.480]  So yeah, you can.
[01:16:44.640 --> 01:16:44.860]  Okay.
[01:16:45.540 --> 01:16:47.740]  I've just been staring at Liz's beautiful face.
[01:16:48.000 --> 01:16:48.320]  All right.
[01:16:48.320 --> 01:16:48.740]  Hi.
[01:16:49.300 --> 01:16:54.200]  Um, so basically this, um, I don't agree with your model of trust.
[01:16:54.840 --> 01:16:57.000]  Um, but let me say why.
[01:16:57.460 --> 01:16:57.800]  Right.
[01:16:58.120 --> 01:17:00.480]  I, I, I have the feeling that no offense.
[01:17:00.600 --> 01:17:01.920]  You should have a shit on me fast.
[01:17:03.660 --> 01:17:05.000]  But it's not personal, right?
[01:17:05.020 --> 01:17:05.920]  We have a shared mission.
[01:17:06.200 --> 01:17:08.940]  So, uh, I know.
[01:17:10.920 --> 01:17:17.620]  Look, I, I wish you and your family the best of health, um, which is less than I can say for my wishes for certain public officials.
[01:17:17.920 --> 01:17:20.920]  Um, but the, uh, the point here is this.
[01:17:21.040 --> 01:17:31.660]  I have the feeling that threat modeling in certain security domains may not be your strength, which is perfectly reasonable because you provided a great service to society and you've used a strength that you do have.
[01:17:31.660 --> 01:17:43.040]  Um, I personally, and my criticism here don't have any issue with you continuing to have sole access to all credentials and all infrastructure for perpetuity.
[01:17:43.520 --> 01:18:04.200]  But what I am encouraging you to do is to take advice, which you, you know, you do, but to take advice in a systematic input format that you can then vet and decide which of that to implement and to make that more accessible and coordinate with the programmer and hacker community.
[01:18:04.240 --> 01:18:09.120]  Just like in an open-source project, you don't have to trust who's submitting the code.
[01:18:09.240 --> 01:18:10.520]  You just read the code.
[01:18:10.520 --> 01:18:19.720]  You also don't have to trust who's helping you design that succession plan that you can hand to your childhood friend or your uncle or your mother, right?
[01:18:19.880 --> 01:18:23.400]  We are not asking for your trust to give us control.
[01:18:24.140 --> 01:18:41.580]  We are asking for you to allow us to use our various domains of expertise to help you ensure that you or someone you trust continues to be able to maintain this tool to fight the administration and protect these people, as is our common interest.
[01:18:42.600 --> 01:18:43.420]  That's completely fair.
[01:18:43.600 --> 01:18:44.580]  I want to ask you a question.
[01:18:45.340 --> 01:18:47.300]  How do you suppose that I do that?
[01:18:47.800 --> 01:18:48.280]  Right.
[01:18:48.600 --> 01:18:51.740]  Without making the app open-source, without making the code publicly available...
[01:18:52.340 --> 01:18:53.520]  Could you repeat that last part, please?
[01:18:53.880 --> 01:18:54.020]  Yeah.
[01:18:54.520 --> 01:19:00.840]  Without making the code open-source publicly available, how do you suggest that I do exactly that?
[01:19:00.840 --> 01:19:01.340]  Sure.
[01:19:01.580 --> 01:19:09.800]  I find the premise strange because, again, like the previous question asker, speaker, I don't understand...
[01:19:09.800 --> 01:19:13.480]  I don't understand why you wouldn't make the code open-source.
[01:19:13.580 --> 01:19:23.740]  Or maybe you pick a few people to review that you are public figures that have a consistent track record of fighting fascism and adhering to NDAs.
[01:19:23.740 --> 01:19:30.340]  And maybe they vet it first to make sure that your publishing it won't immediately result in some sort of adverse consequence.
[01:19:31.200 --> 01:19:35.920]  But aside from my not believing in the premise that you shouldn't open-source, let's start with that.
[01:19:36.480 --> 01:19:42.720]  Even if you don't open-source your code, you can still take advice that is not in code form.
[01:19:43.240 --> 01:19:49.700]  For example, earlier, an attorney came to stage and asked you whether you would implement a warrant canary.
[01:19:51.200 --> 01:20:00.740]  Unfortunately, your response indicated that you may have a different sense of what a warrant canary is, even on the second reading, than what was being suggested and its standard definition.
[01:20:02.080 --> 01:20:22.860]  I'm not sure how exactly, but there could be a portal where you allow folks whose background you can vet to give you suggestions and you back and forth with them until you understand the concept and decide of your own volition, a bite sized piece that you can or cannot implement if you insist that
[01:20:22.860 --> 01:20:24.580]  you do want to be doing all the work yourself.
[01:20:25.680 --> 01:20:31.400]  Currently, this is the only forum where we can get through to you and sort of give you that input.
[01:20:31.880 --> 01:20:36.600]  Make yourself accessible and back and forth conversations with people who can contribute in other ways.
[01:20:36.760 --> 01:20:46.780]  And by the way, some of the people who came up to, not myself, I'm like very private and no one knows who the fuck I am, but like some other people who came up here and spoke to you are verifiable public figures who do have that track record.
[01:20:46.960 --> 01:20:52.440]  And so the general assessment that you can't decide who to trust, good to have that type.
[01:20:52.640 --> 01:21:00.880]  But the idea that you can't trust someone's advice is different because you can be trained up to figure out whether to trust a given piece of advice.
[01:21:01.580 --> 01:21:04.920]  And we would love for that to happen because you have made a great product.
[01:21:06.260 --> 01:21:09.420]  Okay, well, that's that's extremely fair.
[01:21:09.760 --> 01:21:12.080]  And thank you for saying that.
[01:21:13.740 --> 01:21:17.180]  As far as this is the only forum that you can reach me on.
[01:21:17.380 --> 01:21:18.140]  That's not true.
[01:21:18.600 --> 01:21:21.320]  So I'll just give you guys where you can reach me.
[01:21:21.400 --> 01:21:22.080]  I'm on blue sky.
[01:21:22.420 --> 01:21:24.080]  I am accessible.
[01:21:24.320 --> 01:21:27.460]  Okay, I respond all the time to people.
[01:21:27.460 --> 01:21:30.980]  People are taking out their phones right now to immediately message you, by the way.
[01:21:31.160 --> 01:21:33.280]  Just that's the look in this forum right now.
[01:21:33.540 --> 01:21:35.460]  Okay, here's here are the following accounts.
[01:21:35.660 --> 01:21:36.900]  I'll tell you exactly the account.
[01:21:37.460 --> 01:21:41.220]  At ICEBlock.app is the official ICEBlock account on blue sky.
[01:21:41.800 --> 01:21:45.140]  And at Joshua.StealingHeather.com is me.
[01:21:45.480 --> 01:21:47.240]  So you can follow both of those.
[01:21:48.220 --> 01:21:49.560]  My DMs are open.
[01:21:49.980 --> 01:21:51.360]  I don't always respond.
[01:21:51.520 --> 01:21:53.860]  I'm really, really busy, as I'm sure you can understand.
[01:21:53.860 --> 01:21:56.700]  But I often do respond.
[01:21:58.340 --> 01:22:07.460]  Certainly the ICEBlock account, when people post questions, as long as it's not, when's an Android version coming, which is like 700 of those.
[01:22:07.460 --> 01:22:08.540]  You can't respond to all of them.
[01:22:09.080 --> 01:22:11.760]  But if it's like a legitimate thing.
[01:22:12.300 --> 01:22:19.040]  A perfect example is there was a bug in two dot releases ago.
[01:22:19.440 --> 01:22:23.720]  And a user on blue sky posted a comment.
[01:22:23.720 --> 01:22:25.120]  It said, I can't do this.
[01:22:25.300 --> 01:22:25.980]  This isn't working.
[01:22:26.120 --> 01:22:27.340]  It was working in the last revision.
[01:22:27.560 --> 01:22:29.020]  And I said, that's weird.
[01:22:29.200 --> 01:22:30.300]  I know we tested that.
[01:22:30.920 --> 01:22:31.720]  Responded to them.
[01:22:31.880 --> 01:22:33.500]  Commented back and forth a couple of times.
[01:22:33.880 --> 01:22:35.180]  Found where the bug was.
[01:22:35.620 --> 01:22:36.140]  Fixed it.
[01:22:36.460 --> 01:22:40.980]  So absolutely, this is not some secretive organization.
[01:22:41.380 --> 01:22:43.200]  This is, you guys can follow on blue sky.
[01:22:43.320 --> 01:22:43.840]  You can comment.
[01:22:44.000 --> 01:22:44.680]  You can DM.
[01:22:44.680 --> 01:22:50.100]  Like, this is very much, you know, something that you will receive a response most likely.
[01:22:50.300 --> 01:22:57.660]  Continue to remain the only person with right access to the ultimate infrastructure and the only person with control.
[01:22:57.780 --> 01:23:03.360]  But I would encourage you to reduce yourself as being the bottleneck in the development aspect of this product.
[01:23:07.020 --> 01:23:08.720]  So we have a couple more.
[01:23:08.880 --> 01:23:11.120]  I think they were already gone over.
[01:23:12.020 --> 01:23:18.160]  So we're going to be closing up any questions basically now.
[01:23:18.640 --> 01:23:19.980]  Joshua, do you have any final thoughts?
[01:23:21.720 --> 01:23:24.980]  I don't know if anybody wants to hear any more of my thoughts today.
[01:23:25.440 --> 01:23:29.020]  I mean, like, do you want to talk about like the future of ICEBlock?
[01:23:29.140 --> 01:23:35.900]  Anything that you have in mind that you want to bring to our audience here at HOPE and those watching globally?
[01:23:36.060 --> 01:23:38.520]  Yeah, I mean, look, I'll say this.
[01:23:38.800 --> 01:23:40.420]  I want to thank the hacker community.
[01:23:40.620 --> 01:23:42.020]  I want to thank you guys for having me.
[01:23:42.600 --> 01:23:46.280]  What you guys contribute to the public community is phenomenal.
[01:23:47.820 --> 01:24:01.600]  You know, just because I shy away from this specific scenario of making it open-source right this second does not mean I don't respect what you guys do or your knowledge or any of that.
[01:24:02.380 --> 01:24:03.160]  I do.
[01:24:03.340 --> 01:24:05.660]  I have tremendous respect for all of you.
[01:24:05.760 --> 01:24:07.840]  And there are plenty of smarter people out there than me.
[01:24:08.060 --> 01:24:08.260]  Okay.
[01:24:09.980 --> 01:24:12.040]  So I just want to say thank you for having me.
[01:24:12.140 --> 01:24:12.860]  Thank you for listening.
[01:24:13.260 --> 01:24:17.900]  Thank you for having a civil discussion about, you know, some things that you might not agree with.
[01:24:19.420 --> 01:24:21.420]  But yeah, I really, really enjoyed the questions.
[01:24:21.420 --> 01:24:23.220]  I really enjoyed being with you all today.
[01:24:23.540 --> 01:24:26.280]  And yeah, I think that's about it.
[01:24:26.480 --> 01:24:29.680]  And I want to speak on behalf of like HOPE and our community.
[01:24:29.800 --> 01:24:30.420]  We want to help you.
[01:24:30.580 --> 01:24:31.920]  We want to make sure this succeeds.
[01:24:33.060 --> 01:24:36.120]  So, you know, we ask you the hard questions because we allow it here.
[01:24:36.120 --> 01:24:40.340]  Not like a DEF CON where they're doing shots on the stage with who was the head of the NSA.
[01:24:40.820 --> 01:24:41.220]  Whatever.
[01:24:43.660 --> 01:24:44.060]  Yeah.
[01:24:44.620 --> 01:24:46.920]  I heard there was a nice rep from Jeremy Hammond earlier.
[01:24:48.040 --> 01:24:50.760]  So I'm just seeing if there's any last things.
[01:24:51.520 --> 01:24:52.320]  No, that's it.
[01:24:52.480 --> 01:24:53.120]  Thank you so much.
[01:24:54.800 --> 01:24:55.480]  Thank you, guys.
[01:24:55.480 --> 01:24:56.300]  Thank you, guys.
[01:24:56.920 --> 01:24:56.960]  Thank you, guys.