[00:00.000 --> 00:06.000]  Check that out and if anybody has jumper cables the 2600 van has a dead battery downstairs.
[00:10.300 --> 00:13.380]  We didn't know four-way flashers could actually kill a battery but they did.
[00:14.020 --> 00:22.620]  So anybody wants to go down and look at it, it's currently mired in 33rd Street I think or one of those streets facing away from 7th Avenue.
[00:23.040 --> 00:25.780]  So we'll begin with the panel in just a couple of minutes.
[00:26.100 --> 00:28.820]  If you want to stretch your legs or relieve yourselves, feel free.
[00:36.460 --> 00:37.640]  Now here's Jackie.
[00:37.920 --> 00:38.620]  Thank you very much.
[00:38.660 --> 00:39.760]  How about those supermarkets?
[00:40.420 --> 00:41.720]  And what about those hippies?
[00:42.200 --> 00:43.900]  This special is brought to you with this reminder.
[00:44.100 --> 00:48.180]  Whenever you travel, call ahead for reservations and to make other plans for the things you'll want to do.
[00:48.340 --> 00:49.400]  Once again, here's our leader.
[00:49.640 --> 00:52.140]  Yes sir, and here's my special guest, Mr. Mal Sharp.
[00:52.360 --> 00:55.080]  Jack, how do you get a 60-second special like this every year?
[00:55.080 --> 00:58.760]  I was walking down the street one day when the sponsor came up to me and said, Hey Jack, you got a minute?
[00:59.240 --> 01:02.640]  The bell system suggests that when you travel, keep in touch with home by phone.
[01:02.760 --> 01:04.720]  I'd like to thank everyone who made my minute possible.
[01:05.000 --> 01:08.760]  This is Jack Paul Long, this is Riley, saying so long until next year.
[01:09.060 --> 01:10.040]  Got it carefully, everybody!
[01:10.320 --> 01:13.300]  Remember to call ahead for reservations and relax and enjoy your trip.
[01:13.500 --> 01:14.560]  Ernie Anderson speaking.
[01:21.880 --> 01:24.780]  Here's the American breed for New York Telephone.
[01:25.060 --> 01:31.440]  If you get a ring on your telephone, and the car's for you, but the family's home.
[01:31.440 --> 01:34.940]  You climb up the stairs to your private room.
[01:35.180 --> 01:38.760]  You pick up the phone, now you're all alone.
[01:40.280 --> 01:43.440]  Be alone phone, baby, it's just for you.
[01:43.740 --> 01:46.940]  Be alone phone, baby, it's the thing to do.
[01:47.200 --> 01:51.900]  Be alone phone, it's the phone of your own.
[01:52.900 --> 01:53.380]  Be alone phone.
[01:53.380 --> 01:55.560]  At New York Telephone, we're hip to your privacy.
[01:55.740 --> 01:59.120]  So now for just pennies a day, you can groove with your own extension phone.
[01:59.360 --> 02:00.120]  And alone phone.
[02:00.360 --> 02:03.260]  It comes in colors and styles that will really turn you on.
[02:03.440 --> 02:04.720]  Like the new term line phone.
[02:04.920 --> 02:06.640]  That's the one where the dial comes to you.
[02:06.960 --> 02:08.480]  Get your very own phone today.
[02:08.720 --> 02:09.440]  And alone phone.
[02:09.680 --> 02:11.320]  It's really out of sight.
[02:15.740 --> 02:20.840]  New York City.
[02:20.840 --> 02:21.620]  Listen.
[02:23.360 --> 02:24.700]  No, we want to hear that one.
[02:24.860 --> 02:25.720]  Bring that one back.
[02:25.820 --> 02:26.660]  This is the best one.
[02:26.980 --> 02:28.180]  It's still a hell of a town.
[02:34.340 --> 02:36.340]  At New York Telephone,
[02:39.500 --> 02:43.580]  we know getting a malicious or obscene phone call can really piss you off.
[02:44.000 --> 02:46.040]  If you get such a call, fuck it.
[02:46.280 --> 02:47.060]  Hang up immediately.
[02:47.060 --> 02:51.140]  In most instances, that's enough to stop the caller from becoming a pain in the ass.
[02:51.700 --> 02:54.900]  Too often, though, people unwittingly encourage the caller by talking back.
[02:55.460 --> 02:56.320]  Don't be a prick.
[02:56.520 --> 02:58.740]  You can't argue with a sick mind, so don't try.
[02:59.420 --> 03:02.680]  And if hanging up quickly doesn't work, for shit's sake, don't panic.
[03:02.680 --> 03:04.680]  Just call our business office.
[03:05.020 --> 03:07.380]  You'll find the number in the front of your telephone directory.
[03:07.660 --> 03:11.680]  In persistent cases, our annoyance call bureau takes over to try and trap the fucker.
[03:12.300 --> 03:18.580]  Working with the police, our annoyance call bureau has been responsible for 844 arrests and 54 abortions.
[03:18.580 --> 03:25.280]  And offenders have learned that a 10 cent phone call can cost them as much as $1,000 and jam their ass in prison for a year.
[03:26.060 --> 03:29.060]  At New York Telephone, we're in business to give you service.
[03:29.260 --> 03:33.580]  And part of our obligation is to see to it that no motherfucker abuses that service.
[03:34.180 --> 03:37.200]  After all, the service we give you is obscene enough.
[03:46.900 --> 03:52.660]  That was the actual guy that did the New York Telephone commercials back in the 70s.
[03:52.820 --> 03:54.620]  So that had special meaning.
[03:55.840 --> 03:59.200]  Thanks to Sky Warmer from WUSB for bringing all those to us.
[04:04.150 --> 04:05.190]  Stick around later.
[04:05.330 --> 04:07.190]  I'm sure he'll play his Casey Kasem cursing tape.
[04:10.190 --> 04:12.030]  Welcome to the 2600 panel.
[04:12.410 --> 04:17.010]  This is, I guess, kind of the focal point of this whole thing, our 10th anniversary.
[04:17.370 --> 04:19.530]  It's kind of weird that we're here for 10 years.
[04:21.390 --> 04:24.230]  From the right to the left, we have Scott Skinner, staff writer.
[04:24.930 --> 04:26.730]  And David Ruderman, co-founder.
[04:28.570 --> 04:30.110]  And Ben, thank you.
[04:31.910 --> 04:36.310]  Ben Sherman, our newest person on staff.
[04:36.310 --> 04:38.130]  And myself, Manuel Goldstein.
[04:46.240 --> 04:53.940]  It's kind of embarrassing, but while I was a co-founder, I initially was one of the people that really didn't like the name 2600.
[04:54.600 --> 04:56.640]  It just, I don't know, it sounded weird to me, you know?
[04:56.740 --> 04:57.880]  It sounded, it's a number.
[04:58.200 --> 05:00.000]  No one calls a magazine by a number.
[05:00.400 --> 05:06.660]  I wanted something more, I don't know, fitting, like American Technological Journal or something, you know?
[05:07.480 --> 05:08.420]  Wouldn't that have been cool?
[05:08.520 --> 05:09.200]  Wouldn't that have been nice?
[05:09.320 --> 05:11.820]  American Technological, could have called it ATJ or something.
[05:12.820 --> 05:16.000]  But no, Dave here is the one who had the idea of 2600.
[05:16.280 --> 05:18.880]  And I think we owe him a round of applause for that.
[05:23.890 --> 05:25.370]  He had many other ideas, too.
[05:26.450 --> 05:34.630]  But 2600 has gotten us in trouble quite a few times because when you have a magazine that's a number, there's a lot of things that you can't do.
[05:36.670 --> 05:44.730]  The, as many of you know on all 2600, the USENET site, that's a topic of discussion, the fact that you have a news group named after a number.
[05:45.390 --> 05:50.110]  Every time we're listed anywhere, we're always first because numbers come before letters and computers.
[05:50.850 --> 05:56.850]  And there have been all kinds of bureaucratic foul ups and blunders because people don't know how to deal with numbers as names.
[05:58.010 --> 06:03.410]  So, I guess I'd like to give everybody on the panel a chance to say what 2600 has meant to them over the years.
[06:03.410 --> 06:09.530]  And we can take questions of any sort, take suggestions, criticisms, what have you.
[06:11.030 --> 06:12.690]  Start with Scott and move our way over.
[06:14.650 --> 06:16.130]  Didn't know we were going to do this, did you?
[06:17.250 --> 06:17.870]  Hi, everyone.
[06:20.130 --> 06:21.050]  Yeah, it's on.
[06:21.690 --> 06:23.150]  What 2600 means to me?
[06:25.090 --> 06:25.770]  That's the...
[06:25.770 --> 06:27.670]  Or some of the most memorable moments.
[06:28.130 --> 06:29.870]  Like our press conference.
[06:30.070 --> 06:31.290]  I think that was probably one of the...
[06:31.290 --> 06:32.210]  Yeah, let's talk about that.
[06:32.310 --> 06:33.150]  Our press conference.
[06:33.350 --> 06:33.530]  Okay.
[06:34.750 --> 06:38.290]  Well, we were for our time involved in this story about Simplex locks.
[06:38.570 --> 06:39.450]  Everyone knows about that?
[06:39.690 --> 06:40.130]  Simplex?
[06:40.410 --> 06:40.810]  Yeah.
[06:41.270 --> 06:42.450]  What's the default combination?
[06:42.450 --> 06:43.430]  Anyone?
[06:43.630 --> 06:44.410]  24-3.
[06:44.810 --> 06:45.530]  All right.
[06:46.330 --> 06:46.830]  Go ahead.
[06:47.050 --> 06:47.770]  54-2.
[06:48.190 --> 06:48.890]  But anyway.
[06:49.410 --> 06:49.690]  What?
[06:50.510 --> 06:51.450]  24-3.
[06:51.790 --> 06:52.930]  24-3.
[06:53.050 --> 06:53.890]  No, that's Federal Express.
[06:54.150 --> 06:55.010]  Oh, excuse me.
[06:58.110 --> 06:58.890]  Oh, well.
[06:59.150 --> 07:01.550]  We just gave out a corporate secret.
[07:01.550 --> 07:01.970]  But anyway.
[07:02.450 --> 07:04.990]  So we were involved in this story about Simplex locks.
[07:05.290 --> 07:10.610]  And we thought this story was probably important enough that we should go national with it.
[07:10.710 --> 07:13.850]  I mean, we should really make an effort to get it to not just our own readers, but everyone.
[07:13.850 --> 07:17.090]  Because, you know, everyone uses Federal Express.
[07:17.370 --> 07:18.030]  It's a major thing.
[07:18.450 --> 07:21.530]  So we had this press conference in the city.
[07:21.670 --> 07:22.390]  I forgot the hotel.
[07:23.090 --> 07:34.390]  And we sent out faxes to every single newspaper in New York City, every single radio station, every single journal, everything we could think of.
[07:34.390 --> 07:36.250]  We were on the AP wire service.
[07:36.650 --> 07:40.310]  You know, we pretty much did everything possible to, like, alert everyone to our presence.
[07:40.910 --> 07:46.250]  And then on the day of the conference, what we did was we found out how this whole thing worked.
[07:46.410 --> 07:49.630]  On the day of the conference, we had this multimedia display, like, much better than this.
[07:49.770 --> 07:52.850]  We had, like, you know, slide projectors.
[07:52.870 --> 07:55.250]  And we had, like, demonstration locks and everything.
[07:55.790 --> 07:56.790]  And no one showed up.
[07:57.070 --> 08:00.070]  And the reason why was because there was a water main break.
[08:00.990 --> 08:05.110]  And apparently that took precedent over every, over anything else that happened that day.
[08:05.110 --> 08:07.210]  Well, no, actually, first of all, one person did show up.
[08:07.230 --> 08:07.770]  And a mass murderer?
[08:08.190 --> 08:10.610]  Actually, two people from an Italian journal of some sort.
[08:10.750 --> 08:12.690]  I don't know why, but they showed up and they took pictures of us.
[08:13.770 --> 08:15.930]  But, yeah, there was a big water main break.
[08:16.230 --> 08:17.570]  That took care of the local media.
[08:17.670 --> 08:21.310]  But the national media, they were put off by, I think, the biggest mass murder in Texas history.
[08:21.530 --> 08:21.810]  Right.
[08:21.810 --> 08:24.530]  So we were pretty much snowed under by that.
[08:24.770 --> 08:25.030]  Right.
[08:25.370 --> 08:25.910]  But we tried.
[08:26.230 --> 08:28.750]  But, interestingly, that's how it works with everyone.
[08:28.750 --> 08:36.530]  For instance, when, when the mayor of New York City, he was, he threw a parade for the, the Rangers.
[08:37.410 --> 08:39.430]  You know, he was hoping to get a little bit of media, too.
[08:39.630 --> 08:43.650]  And what happened was, you know, the whole OJ thing happened and then he got no media.
[08:43.810 --> 08:45.090]  So apparently it happens to everyone.
[08:45.230 --> 08:46.110]  You know, we're not the only ones.
[08:46.310 --> 08:46.930]  What a shame.
[08:47.030 --> 08:52.170]  So, because the only reason a mayor would throw a parade in New York City probably is to get media attention, right?
[08:53.230 --> 08:53.590]  Sure.
[08:54.630 --> 08:56.510]  Anyway, so, that was interesting.
[09:01.210 --> 09:04.150]  Scott's done a lot more, but I'm sure it'll come back to him.
[09:04.970 --> 09:11.450]  But, Scott, the other interesting thing, right, about the simplex locks was they were trying to market them for your front door of your house.
[09:11.590 --> 09:11.830]  Yeah.
[09:12.070 --> 09:13.170]  The domestic version.
[09:13.390 --> 09:13.470]  Right.
[09:13.470 --> 09:16.010]  Does anyone here have a simplex lock on their front door?
[09:17.770 --> 09:18.170]  No.
[09:18.550 --> 09:19.630]  We got a smart bunch here.
[09:19.830 --> 09:25.570]  Colleges and universities all across the United States are using this as a primary lock to protect students.
[09:25.950 --> 09:27.470]  And that was the story.
[09:27.610 --> 09:28.430]  I mean, it was a major thing.
[09:28.630 --> 09:30.690]  They were pushing this as a primary lock system.
[09:30.850 --> 09:35.730]  And we're trying to alert people that, you know, it wasn't secure and it shouldn't be used as a primary lock source.
[09:35.730 --> 09:42.970]  Yeah, and this was a story that had absolutely nothing to do with computers, but we found the exact same ignorance abounding in the way people dealt with this.
[09:43.050 --> 09:45.730]  The way people were running the actual locks.
[09:45.910 --> 09:51.830]  They would have a default password, if you will, and then they would just not change it.
[09:51.830 --> 10:01.230]  And we were amazed when we found that both Federal Express and UPS not only used the same combination around our area for all the drop boxes, but they used the same combination throughout the entire nation.
[10:01.350 --> 10:04.990]  And it was only three digits long, and that's what secured people's packages.
[10:05.250 --> 10:08.090]  And I believe to this day all the defaults are all the same.
[10:08.330 --> 10:09.010]  Nothing has been changed.
[10:09.030 --> 10:09.450]  A lot of them are.
[10:09.570 --> 10:10.010]  A lot of them are.
[10:10.010 --> 10:12.090]  But even if they're not, it's very easy to get them.
[10:12.930 --> 10:15.530]  And I know a lot of us have experimented with this.
[10:15.530 --> 10:25.730]  It can be handy because people can use Federal Express lock boxes as their own private depositories at night, as long as they get there before 4.30 when the guy comes.
[10:27.070 --> 10:33.110]  But it's really not nice to change the combination on the guy so that he's sitting there for hours.
[10:34.550 --> 10:37.570]  And then changing it back when he comes back the next day with his supervisor.
[10:39.930 --> 10:42.570]  But if there's a FedEx man out there you really hate...
[10:47.210 --> 10:48.190]  Dave Ruderman.
[10:49.130 --> 10:49.770]  Oh.
[10:50.670 --> 10:51.730]  What do you want now?
[10:52.810 --> 10:54.110]  How did it all begin?
[10:54.570 --> 10:55.950]  I was there in the beginning.
[10:56.510 --> 10:59.530]  Back when 2600 looked like this.
[11:00.510 --> 11:02.490]  These are my personal copies.
[11:04.690 --> 11:07.230]  They are not color transparencies.
[11:09.910 --> 11:12.890]  But we would photocopy late at night.
[11:13.890 --> 11:16.870]  Sneaking into various places that could afford paper.
[11:17.310 --> 11:20.470]  And punching holes and mailing them out.
[11:21.410 --> 11:27.230]  I really want to thank the 50 first subscribers who subscribed before it came out.
[11:27.770 --> 11:28.790]  Wherever they are.
[11:29.310 --> 11:30.690]  Do we even know who they are?
[11:30.690 --> 11:32.650]  I'm sure there's at least one or two in the room.
[11:34.370 --> 11:37.470]  Around 50 people subscribed before the first issue came out.
[11:38.010 --> 11:39.430]  Yeah, we told them never to do that again.
[11:39.630 --> 11:43.110]  Because we put out an ad in various newspapers saying send $10.
[11:43.430 --> 11:44.350]  Actually it was on bulletin boards.
[11:45.170 --> 11:47.770]  This was before internet was really happening.
[11:48.070 --> 11:52.970]  And we just put up messages on bulletin boards saying send $10, we'll send you a hacker magazine.
[11:53.110 --> 11:54.610]  And a lot of people did.
[11:56.150 --> 12:01.930]  And so we started off very small with about, I think what was it, 25 people the first time?
[12:02.450 --> 12:03.890]  Yeah, I think so.
[12:04.110 --> 12:09.090]  And we went to a distant post office late at night.
[12:09.410 --> 12:12.190]  We were sure we were going to be arrested for doing what we were doing.
[12:12.550 --> 12:16.210]  And we just dropped these things in the PO and ran.
[12:18.390 --> 12:19.730]  We were kind of strange then.
[12:20.070 --> 12:25.550]  I guess we figured that, well of course there was also a big national indictment coming down on a couple of us.
[12:25.670 --> 12:26.610]  So we were kind of paranoid.
[12:27.530 --> 12:30.530]  But at one point we were just, we had a decision to make.
[12:30.650 --> 12:32.530]  Do we go ahead with this or do we play it safe?
[12:33.530 --> 12:37.350]  And well, we were young and foolish so here we are.
[12:38.250 --> 12:38.730]  Ben.
[12:42.530 --> 12:45.230]  Well, I got something to add for this.
[12:45.470 --> 12:48.950]  When we first started, well I wasn't around then of course.
[12:49.650 --> 12:52.850]  I've only been around for about six months or so.
[12:53.710 --> 13:04.210]  But from what I understand, they, they would sneak into, to an old, old newspaper publishing, newspaper publishing building to typeset it.
[13:04.430 --> 13:11.110]  And therefore, from, for ten years ago, it was probably one of the best looking zines around.
[13:12.010 --> 13:22.210]  In fact, I remember when, maybe one of the times I first met Cheshire, and he gave us such compliments on our wonderful layout.
[13:23.110 --> 13:27.410]  And if you compare it to anything you see today, it's nothing too special.
[13:27.590 --> 13:30.110]  But, well you heard him talking about TAP earlier.
[13:30.810 --> 13:32.130]  How they put that together.
[13:33.850 --> 13:39.890]  Well, I haven't really been with the magazine very long, so I don't really know a whole lot of history about it.
[13:39.890 --> 13:42.070]  I've, I've been amazed at what I've seen.
[13:42.390 --> 13:45.250]  And even in the six months, there's been a lot of changes and a lot of progress.
[13:45.470 --> 13:48.050]  So, I mean, we're all here, this, this conference.
[13:48.290 --> 13:49.590]  And it's, it's, to me, it's amazing.
[13:49.730 --> 13:55.270]  I don't know about, about all of you, but I've seen this, this whole thing progress and it's, it's amazing to me.
[14:00.170 --> 14:06.330]  As Dave said, we first started off, it was, it was kind of luck that we had access to a typesetting machine.
[14:07.010 --> 14:14.090]  And that's what made us look a little bit better than, you know, other, maybe dot matrix printed zines that were out there.
[14:14.170 --> 14:15.290]  Not that there was anything wrong with that.
[14:15.410 --> 14:18.950]  But, it was just kind of cool to, to have this, this professional look.
[14:19.050 --> 14:19.130]  Yeah.
[14:19.210 --> 14:20.050]  Now, open up that one.
[14:20.210 --> 14:21.430]  At one point, we decided...
[14:21.430 --> 14:22.690]  In May of 1985.
[14:22.910 --> 14:28.150]  May of 1985, we, we got independent and we decided to go to a, what kind of a printer was that?
[14:28.150 --> 14:30.630]  A letter, a letter quality printer and it looked like shit.
[14:31.530 --> 14:32.230]  It, it was...
[14:32.230 --> 14:34.090]  It lasted about two months, that little experiment.
[14:34.990 --> 14:36.370]  It was a Diablo, I think.
[14:37.130 --> 14:38.330]  A Diablo printer, yeah.
[14:38.490 --> 14:41.190]  So that, that lasted for a little while and then we went straight back to the typesetter.
[14:41.730 --> 14:44.010]  And, uh, it, it was literally sneaking in at night.
[14:44.330 --> 14:48.230]  And, uh, the first typesetter we used, you could only type one line at a time.
[14:48.750 --> 14:51.610]  Uh, you typed it, you hit return, it was printed and that was it.
[14:51.830 --> 14:55.070]  If you had any, uh, corrections you had to make, you had to paste over it.
[14:55.070 --> 14:59.890]  And, and it really took a long time and that's why we were only six pages and it took a lot of effort to put out.
[15:00.310 --> 15:03.870]  Uh, then we got into a better machine when we had some memory, but it was still a pain.
[15:04.010 --> 15:07.290]  You had to deal with, uh, pasting up and, and smelly chemicals and things.
[15:07.930 --> 15:10.810]  And, and then we moved to desktop publishing and that's where we are now.
[15:12.170 --> 15:15.910]  So, um, that's pretty much, um, the history of 2600.
[15:15.990 --> 15:19.490]  I mean, there's been a lot of, uh, a lot of weird things that have happened to us over the years.
[15:19.490 --> 15:23.890]  A lot of, uh, threats from various companies and, uh, agencies.
[15:24.490 --> 15:35.230]  Uh, we were visited once by the FBI who wanted to recruit us to, um, to, uh, get Soviet people to, to obtain high tech and illegal manners.
[15:35.570 --> 15:38.630]  They thought we'd be good for that, but, uh, we didn't.
[15:38.930 --> 15:43.830]  In, uh, July of 87, we were hit by lightning.
[15:44.070 --> 15:45.110]  Oh yeah, direct hit.
[15:45.290 --> 15:45.830]  That was something.
[15:45.950 --> 15:49.950]  It took out every electronic, anything that ran on electricity that we owned.
[15:50.430 --> 15:52.790]  Yeah, it, uh, it, it fried all our computers.
[15:53.090 --> 15:57.430]  And, uh, fortunately, two months earlier we had, uh, gotten computer insurance.
[15:57.430 --> 15:58.170]  So we were saved.
[15:58.290 --> 16:00.730]  If we had not done that, we probably would have been taken right out.
[16:01.490 --> 16:04.590]  Um, and any other catastrophes?
[16:05.690 --> 16:06.310]  Not really.
[16:06.390 --> 16:08.910]  We've erased things a few times, but we wouldn't mean to, but, uh.
[16:09.050 --> 16:15.430]  Well, we, um, back in, uh, right, right after we, we started, we, we had an official BBS.
[16:15.430 --> 16:16.230]  That's right.
[16:16.390 --> 16:17.230]  Uh, the private sector.
[16:17.430 --> 16:19.230]  It ran on, uh, Apple, too.
[16:20.370 --> 16:23.490]  And after a few months, it went, it got a hard drive.
[16:23.750 --> 16:24.190]  Yeah.
[16:24.430 --> 16:24.870]  10 meg.
[16:26.370 --> 16:27.690]  We were really proud of that.
[16:28.290 --> 16:31.270]  And then after a few more months, it was seized by the FBI.
[16:32.150 --> 16:33.730]  Or no, the Secret Service.
[16:34.130 --> 16:37.330]  They were, they were moving, they were moving satellites up in the heavens.
[16:37.690 --> 16:38.470]  That was the quote.
[16:39.350 --> 16:41.530]  Yeah, these people on the bulletin board were moving satellites.
[16:42.310 --> 16:55.330]  And, um, in fact, we have, we have a tape that, uh, we, we'll play later in the weekend, um, of a radio program from the Boston radio station where they actually give a commentary saying that that is, in fact, what these people were doing.
[16:55.510 --> 16:58.510]  And, and AT&T, everybody said this was impossible.
[16:59.230 --> 17:01.070]  Teenagers couldn't move satellites with computers.
[17:01.330 --> 17:03.470]  It just wasn't, it, it could not be done.
[17:03.970 --> 17:06.930]  So, uh, that was certainly, uh, one of the weirdest moments.
[17:06.930 --> 17:16.570]  And eventually we got the stuff back six months later, but our system operator had to plead guilty to owning a burglary tool, which was a basic program that could emulate tones.
[17:16.990 --> 17:18.410]  Which we, uh, printed.
[17:19.010 --> 17:20.330]  Yeah, we printed it too.
[17:20.470 --> 17:24.170]  We, we usually print things that, uh, that, that people don't like.
[17:24.270 --> 17:28.690]  We printed it for, for the Atari and the Commodore and the Apple.
[17:29.170 --> 17:30.550]  So everybody could be happy.
[17:30.790 --> 17:35.670]  Um, more recently, uh, AT&T was upset with us because we printed a list of their offices.
[17:38.570 --> 17:42.510]  And so we dedicated the second part of it to them and printed their letter too.
[17:43.370 --> 17:45.230]  Uh, and recently, this, this was a good one.
[17:45.230 --> 17:48.690]  A company, uh, served us with a cease and desist order for printing.
[17:52.160 --> 17:53.620]  They're obnoxious as far as that goes.
[17:53.720 --> 18:01.780]  But we've had a problem recently in that, uh, uh, well, I mean, it's not really a problem, but it's kind of, it's kind of an annoyance in some ways.
[18:02.160 --> 18:04.220]  The magazine is getting out there a lot.
[18:04.280 --> 18:07.180]  I mean, you guys are able to find it now in Barnes and Noble.
[18:07.180 --> 18:08.320]  Uh, Tower.
[18:08.680 --> 18:12.700]  And it's really, it's, it's kind of weird to us because that's not what we were expecting.
[18:12.860 --> 18:17.060]  We were expecting this kind of mass, uh, acceptance of 2600.
[18:17.460 --> 18:21.800]  2600 was, was, uh, formed for a very small group of people at the beginning.
[18:22.560 --> 18:24.160]  And more people subscribed.
[18:24.360 --> 18:31.640]  But then once we, once we, once we hit newsstands, um, it just kind of took off.
[18:31.840 --> 18:37.240]  And a lot of people that were curious about what hackers were doing read us.
[18:37.860 --> 18:46.400]  And, uh, of course, since we were at newsstands, they didn't have to worry about being on lists of any sort, which, uh, I think a lot of people are worried about when they subscribe to 2600.
[18:47.300 --> 18:51.140]  Of course, they don't take notice of the cameras in the bookstores that record what you buy.
[18:52.740 --> 18:53.660]  For the scanners.
[18:53.660 --> 18:54.920]  You do know about those, don't you?
[18:56.840 --> 18:57.800]  Well, I don't know.
[18:57.900 --> 19:02.420]  It's, uh, it's kind of a strange problem, um, because obviously we have to print a lot more.
[19:02.780 --> 19:06.480]  It's, uh, it becomes a lot more of a, of a project to put out an issue.
[19:06.880 --> 19:11.660]  Uh, but a lot of people read 2600 that, um, want shortcuts.
[19:11.920 --> 19:17.020]  And we're kind of concerned with that because, um, we want people to understand what it is to be a hacker.
[19:17.020 --> 19:24.680]  Not just what it is to make a free phone call or to, to copy a credit card or to, uh, get root on a computer system.
[19:25.400 --> 19:27.980]  Um, there's more to hacking than just the end result.
[19:28.200 --> 19:30.500]  There's, there's the whole journey that you go through to get there.
[19:31.040 --> 19:37.160]  And, um, we're just kind of concerned that, that people want to get there without doing any of the work.
[19:37.260 --> 19:40.240]  And I think that's reflected a lot in, uh, in various discussions.
[19:40.540 --> 19:44.080]  And, of course, we'll have our, uh, leashes, lamers, and losers discussion tomorrow.
[19:44.280 --> 19:46.380]  We can go into depth on that a little bit more.
[19:46.380 --> 19:50.880]  Um, but that's, uh, it's really something we can't do anything about.
[19:51.020 --> 19:54.000]  I mean, we don't want to not provide the issues to people.
[19:54.440 --> 20:00.480]  Uh, so we, we, we kind of follow what we're told to do as far as the distributors go.
[20:00.560 --> 20:06.280]  However, we do try and, uh, and keep it from becoming too commercialized.
[20:06.420 --> 20:09.940]  It's kind of difficult sometimes because it's great temptation held up in front of us.
[20:10.580 --> 20:16.360]  Uh, one national distributor wanted to carry us and put us in virtually every magazine store in the country.
[20:16.360 --> 20:26.160]  And, hey, that would have been great except, um, all of our alternative distributors that got us where we are now would have been screwed by that because they would take over their accounts and they're the ones that did all the work.
[20:26.600 --> 20:29.680]  So we'd rather do something as, as a successful zine.
[20:29.820 --> 20:31.800]  We'd like to do something for other zines as well.
[20:32.200 --> 20:33.540]  And there's a lot of them out there.
[20:33.640 --> 20:37.760]  All you have to do is take a trip down to St. Mark's Books or, or Tower or any of those places.
[20:37.760 --> 20:42.220]  And you see that there's been an explosion in desktop publishing and in magazines of all sorts.
[20:42.660 --> 20:44.600]  And that's something that really has to be supported.
[20:44.740 --> 20:50.640]  And if we can help out distributors by allowing them to distribute us, that's going to help out other zines as well.
[20:50.720 --> 20:53.420]  And also getting people into bookstores to read these things.
[20:53.620 --> 20:55.320]  You might pick up some other things out there.
[20:55.780 --> 21:00.600]  Uh, we'd really like to see other, other hacker, phreaker related zines as well.
[21:00.600 --> 21:02.380]  Uh, because there's a lot out there.
[21:02.500 --> 21:03.700]  There's a lot we can't get to.
[21:04.320 --> 21:08.300]  Um, and a lot of people that haven't started writing yet.
[21:08.380 --> 21:09.060]  We know you're out there.
[21:09.500 --> 21:14.100]  So, um, I don't see why there isn't room for, for many magazines like this.
[21:14.480 --> 21:17.020]  That's pretty much everything I have to say about the magazine.
[21:17.560 --> 21:21.020]  Any questions, come up to the microphone and, uh, and, and ask us.
[21:21.040 --> 21:22.660]  And that includes any, any questions.
[21:22.760 --> 21:23.940]  I know people have questions about the covers.
[21:24.420 --> 21:28.680]  I don't know what they all mean myself, but, uh, some of them do have meaning.
[21:29.840 --> 21:30.700]  Some of them don't.
[21:31.000 --> 21:32.360]  I have to walk up to the microphone.
[21:32.820 --> 21:34.320]  Yeah, I have a, one question.
[21:34.540 --> 21:36.240]  I, or actually a series of questions.
[21:36.760 --> 21:38.800]  Who exactly are all of you guys?
[21:39.260 --> 21:40.560]  Um, what are your backgrounds?
[21:40.760 --> 21:42.520]  And how did you get into this whole world?
[21:43.080 --> 21:44.280]  Um, not the real way.
[21:44.440 --> 21:45.080]  Like, how did you get into that?
[21:45.420 --> 21:45.560]  Come on.
[21:45.980 --> 21:48.000]  Um, what...
[21:49.520 --> 21:50.880]  Uh, what was my next question?
[21:51.080 --> 21:56.800]  The, uh, the other question was, I, I always was under the impression that the articles were written by, were submitted.
[21:57.200 --> 22:00.860]  But now I'm, I, I always knew you had staff writers, but I didn't even know what you guys did.
[22:01.040 --> 22:05.560]  And what you do, do you do research to figure out what you want to write?
[22:05.740 --> 22:08.880]  Do you guys sit around and, like, figure out what's going to be in the next issue?
[22:09.080 --> 22:10.580]  Or, how does that all come about?
[22:10.740 --> 22:13.240]  And also, there's a lot of humor in your magazine.
[22:13.380 --> 22:18.440]  Like, if you just look at the one you have on your, uh, overhead, it says nutritional information instead of, like, index.
[22:18.980 --> 22:21.940]  Who's the, the brains behind all the humor and the sarcasm?
[22:22.580 --> 22:31.500]  And the, like, I think, from the kind of comments you said were about the 1-800 number before and the letter that you printed it, you've seen, uh, Emmanuel to be the, the guy behind the humor.
[22:31.580 --> 22:32.900]  But where does that all come from?
[22:32.900 --> 22:34.280]  And who does the cover art?
[22:34.520 --> 22:36.400]  And where do you get the ideas for it?
[22:36.400 --> 22:37.440]  Wait a minute, wait a minute.
[22:39.320 --> 22:41.840]  Well, I, I can't answer where sarcasm comes from.
[22:42.040 --> 22:47.900]  Uh, it just, okay, it, it, it's, uh, we're all, we're all pretty, we're all pretty sarcastic people.
[22:48.100 --> 22:50.560]  Um, I don't know what makes us sarcastic.
[22:50.840 --> 22:51.640]  I really don't.
[22:52.360 --> 22:54.280]  Um, what's funny about the nutritional information?
[22:54.660 --> 22:55.360]  It really is.
[22:55.720 --> 22:59.220]  Um, as far as background, I'm an English major.
[22:59.500 --> 23:02.300]  I never took a computer course in my life and I don't intend to.
[23:03.640 --> 23:04.520]  It's, um...
[23:06.740 --> 23:10.860]  I think, you know, the reason I don't want to is because it would kind of take all the fun out of it.
[23:11.040 --> 23:13.900]  You know, you, instead of wanting to do something, you now have to do something.
[23:14.460 --> 23:16.920]  And, uh, I would hate computers as much as I hate English now.
[23:17.320 --> 23:22.580]  Uh, but being an English major, I was able to string a sentence together and that's sort of good.
[23:23.120 --> 23:31.760]  Um, and what we, what we all do is basically, um, and we don't all do it anymore, um, all the time anyway.
[23:32.000 --> 23:33.260]  We have other people that aren't here.
[23:33.740 --> 23:47.580]  Um, we basically reach decisions as to what to run, how to run it, what it looks like, what should be edited, what should be not put in at all, uh, where the magazine is going, what goes on what pages, all kinds of different things.
[23:47.700 --> 23:51.660]  And, and we write house articles is what we call them occasionally too.
[23:52.140 --> 24:01.920]  Uh, but by far, most of our articles come from people all over the world that send it to us through email, faxes, uh, literally reading it on our answering machines.
[24:02.180 --> 24:02.960]  Uh, people have done that.
[24:03.120 --> 24:03.780]  And sometimes...
[24:03.780 --> 24:06.200]  Maybe you should tell people how they can send articles in.
[24:06.380 --> 24:09.780]  Yeah, well, we can, I guess we can give out addresses and stuff later.
[24:10.160 --> 24:13.660]  Um, but people mail it to us and email and all kinds of things like that.
[24:13.660 --> 24:15.920]  Um, do you guys want to talk about who you are?
[24:16.920 --> 24:17.180]  No.
[24:19.820 --> 24:29.300]  I'll talk about the organization because maybe a lot of people, especially law enforcement, they're very interested in, um, whether this is a conspiracy or, you know, what's going on here.
[24:30.140 --> 24:32.920]  And, uh, it's strange, there is no organization.
[24:33.600 --> 24:38.100]  And yet, the best way I can describe it is just like, it's my, my really stupid analogy.
[24:38.100 --> 24:39.580]  It's just a social club, that's all it is.
[24:39.760 --> 24:39.960]  Yeah, right.
[24:40.960 --> 24:43.580]  It's like, there's like a core, and that's like Eric, right?
[24:44.020 --> 24:49.680]  And then you have like, like a couple of people who are around Eric all the time, so they're going to contribute more.
[24:49.860 --> 24:51.880]  And then around that are more people and more people.
[24:51.960 --> 24:54.540]  And what it is, it's like we all have our own lives and are doing independent things.
[24:54.820 --> 25:00.940]  But every once in a while, we're all just drawn together for something like this, for instance, and we produce something like this.
[25:01.380 --> 25:02.740]  And that's how it gets produced.
[25:03.440 --> 25:04.700]  It's, there's, there's no organization.
[25:05.020 --> 25:07.600]  I mean, probably your biggest gripes, I know what they are.
[25:07.600 --> 25:11.900]  You send us money for subscriptions, and you don't get your first issue for what, six months?
[25:12.480 --> 25:14.840]  And you're like, you know, typical day at the office.
[25:15.080 --> 25:17.420]  This person is complaining because they haven't received an issue.
[25:17.660 --> 25:19.520]  This person is complaining because they haven't received an issue.
[25:19.640 --> 25:20.320]  Lawsuit, lawsuit.
[25:20.540 --> 25:21.460]  This person is complaining.
[25:21.700 --> 25:23.260]  You know, that's a typical day.
[25:23.260 --> 25:27.940]  And the reason why is because, you know, we're not, we're publishers, but we're hackers too.
[25:27.940 --> 25:29.700]  We're actually out there doing things.
[25:37.600 --> 25:43.120]  So that's why, just like, the organization is very loose, but large.
[25:43.720 --> 25:52.360]  That's one of the reasons that this conference, we've got three Dutch people and four Germans in the house now that are stuffing envelopes and doing all kinds of things for us.
[25:52.440 --> 25:53.260]  No pay, it's great.
[25:55.720 --> 25:58.000]  No, seriously, we... Foreign labor is cheap.
[25:58.260 --> 25:58.800]  Yes, it is.
[26:00.500 --> 26:03.380]  We suck at returning phone calls, as I'm sure most of you know.
[26:03.640 --> 26:06.720]  We're a little better with email, but not much.
[26:08.200 --> 26:09.600]  And administratively, it's a disaster.
[26:10.020 --> 26:12.520]  But we try to put out a magazine.
[26:12.700 --> 26:13.540]  That's what we try to do.
[26:13.620 --> 26:15.900]  And I don't think we've ever not fulfilled a subscription.
[26:16.020 --> 26:17.000]  This takes us a little while sometimes.
[26:21.820 --> 26:22.680]  Oh, cover art.
[26:22.860 --> 26:24.260]  We have several artists.
[26:25.240 --> 26:29.880]  Our current artist is Holly Kaufman Spruch, who I was hoping would be here today, but I don't think she is.
[26:31.540 --> 26:34.620]  And basically, we describe what we want to her and she does it.
[26:34.800 --> 26:39.000]  And oftentimes, she adds things that we never think of adding, which are perfect.
[26:39.820 --> 26:41.620]  And, you know, we have them all here.
[26:42.820 --> 26:46.960]  We went to Kinko's and we got transparencies of all our covers.
[26:47.180 --> 26:51.080]  So if there's anything people don't understand, it's all very crystal clear.
[26:52.580 --> 26:55.940]  We try to make it as, you know, nice as possible.
[26:56.360 --> 26:59.340]  How many subscriptions have been bought by the United States government?
[27:01.200 --> 27:03.820]  Well, you'd be surprised who subscribes to us.
[27:03.960 --> 27:04.820]  We can't really say...
[27:04.820 --> 27:06.180]  Yeah, we have to respect their privacy too.
[27:06.340 --> 27:07.860]  We have to respect privacy, but...
[27:07.860 --> 27:09.640]  How many subscriptions do you have in total?
[27:09.880 --> 27:10.340]  I'm sorry?
[27:10.620 --> 27:12.520]  How many subscriptions do we have in total?
[27:12.560 --> 27:14.020]  How many subscriptions do we have in total?
[27:14.440 --> 27:18.860]  It's been around the 2,000, 2,200 mark for years.
[27:19.200 --> 27:24.620]  It's leveled off at that, but newsstands are what has gone through the roof.
[27:25.920 --> 27:26.900]  Well, let's see.
[27:27.600 --> 27:29.660]  Several years ago, we had maybe...
[27:30.360 --> 27:36.000]  I'd say five years ago, we probably were equal on newsstands and subscriptions.
[27:36.420 --> 27:39.580]  And now it's about 10 times the amount of newsstands.
[27:40.160 --> 27:42.020]  And that's really...
[27:42.020 --> 27:43.580]  It kind of shocks us.
[27:43.700 --> 27:49.700]  It kind of scares us because we put one of these things out and everybody reads it.
[27:49.700 --> 27:51.020]  You know, it's kind of weird.
[27:51.700 --> 27:54.140]  We really weren't expecting this to happen when we started this.
[27:54.260 --> 27:56.820]  I mean, it's just kind of strange.
[27:57.200 --> 28:01.600]  I mean, how many people came here because they read about it in 2600 and no other reason?
[28:02.700 --> 28:03.160]  All right.
[28:03.700 --> 28:06.200]  That's a way of reaching people.
[28:06.980 --> 28:09.060]  And this has led to other ways of reaching people.
[28:09.380 --> 28:13.600]  We have a radio show here in New York City, which is called Off the Hook once a week.
[28:14.780 --> 28:15.180]  And...
[28:15.180 --> 28:15.980]  Thank you.
[28:17.900 --> 28:24.560]  It's kind of cool to be able to be there on a 50,000 watt radio station right smack in the middle of the FM dial, you know, in New York City.
[28:24.720 --> 28:26.680]  I mean, God, it can't get any better than that.
[28:27.020 --> 28:28.580]  But we talk about hacker issues.
[28:28.680 --> 28:31.200]  We talk about things that affect all of us.
[28:32.860 --> 28:36.060]  And it's something that I don't think we could have done 10 years ago.
[28:36.180 --> 28:45.140]  10 years ago, hackers existed, but they were rather scarce as far as finding anything positive to say about them in the media.
[28:46.360 --> 28:50.740]  The same kind of holds true these days, but I think we have a better chance.
[28:50.740 --> 28:52.480]  I think more people are getting it.
[28:52.880 --> 28:56.140]  I sure hope this conference is living proof of that because here...
[28:56.960 --> 28:59.000]  I don't know how many of you saw the news crews that were here today.
[28:59.120 --> 28:59.800]  There were quite a few of them.
[29:00.480 --> 29:02.840]  Well, they don't have anything negative to say about us today.
[29:03.000 --> 29:03.800]  I mean, what can they say?
[29:03.800 --> 29:10.540]  We're here showing people how to get onto the internet, teaching seminars on various issues, privacy issues and things like that.
[29:10.780 --> 29:11.860]  We're not being arrested.
[29:12.060 --> 29:13.740]  We're not being charged with all kinds of crimes.
[29:13.880 --> 29:18.400]  And that's really the only thing we were really given press for 10 years ago.
[29:18.600 --> 29:20.500]  So I'd like to think we're making progress.
[29:20.660 --> 29:25.080]  I know some people think I'm a foolish optimist, but I think we have to try.
[29:25.080 --> 29:27.940]  I think we have to try to get the message out and just keep it up.
[29:29.100 --> 29:30.240]  How long have...
[29:30.240 --> 29:31.240]  Can you walk up to the mic?
[29:31.360 --> 29:32.260]  Because people in the back can't hear.
[29:32.940 --> 29:35.820]  How long have you been sending to newsstands overseas?
[29:36.520 --> 29:40.540]  Well, actually, we don't send to newsstands overseas, but our distributors do.
[29:41.140 --> 29:45.400]  Like Tower Records, for instance, or actually Tower Books is the subsidiary.
[29:45.580 --> 29:51.020]  They send to Tower Records in London and various other parts of Europe and I think Asia too.
[29:51.540 --> 29:52.920]  And that's how we get it over there.
[29:53.380 --> 29:54.900]  We don't know where it's sold.
[29:54.900 --> 29:57.520]  People call us and say, where can I buy this magazine in Minneapolis?
[29:57.720 --> 29:58.180]  We don't know.
[29:58.420 --> 30:02.000]  We send however many copies to our distributors and we have quite a few of those.
[30:02.240 --> 30:06.040]  And then they somehow get them out to these places, these esoteric places.
[30:06.400 --> 30:11.660]  It's great to find the magazine when you're cross-country somewhere in some strange small town.
[30:11.740 --> 30:12.600]  You see 2600.
[30:13.840 --> 30:15.380]  But we don't know how it gets there.
[30:15.500 --> 30:17.280]  We don't know where exactly it is.
[30:19.100 --> 30:19.540]  Yes?
[30:20.200 --> 30:20.960]  Three things.
[30:21.240 --> 30:21.940]  Can you hear me?
[30:22.100 --> 30:22.260]  Yes.
[30:22.580 --> 30:23.400]  Is that one of them?
[30:23.400 --> 30:24.400]  Do-do-do-do.
[30:25.520 --> 30:26.140]  Three things.
[30:26.300 --> 30:34.700]  One, when you write your articles, this is the first time I've ever seen 2600.
[30:34.920 --> 30:36.140]  I've heard about it on the net.
[30:36.400 --> 30:37.220]  And I'm a newbie.
[30:37.260 --> 30:40.320]  I don't know anything in UNIX beyond get and put.
[30:41.240 --> 30:43.840]  I don't even know how to unzip anything electronic.
[30:44.300 --> 30:44.900]  But we'll let it go.
[30:45.200 --> 30:45.260]  Okay.
[30:46.420 --> 30:47.480]  Oh, in any...
[30:48.280 --> 31:00.300]  Point being, can you put like a big dummies glossary in your magazine for the jargon and the acronyms that you have in your text?
[31:00.300 --> 31:01.620]  Well, that's a good question.
[31:01.780 --> 31:04.860]  A lot of people ask us that, to have sort of a review.
[31:05.140 --> 31:06.560]  We want to do something like that.
[31:06.620 --> 31:07.120]  We really do.
[31:07.340 --> 31:14.880]  However, at the same time, we don't want to, for our readers who already have reached that point, we don't want to regress.
[31:14.880 --> 31:20.180]  So this would have to be something separate from the magazine, like maybe a guide of some sort.
[31:20.300 --> 31:31.200]  Or not a separate guide, but for each issue, just a little box, like an appendix glossary to the acronyms that occur in the articles.
[31:31.200 --> 31:37.500]  Also, if you could do a big dummies 2600 for newbies, so that they do get the feel of what a hacker is.
[31:37.620 --> 31:45.180]  You know, the long Zendo, the long Zen path to cyberisms or whatever, to cyber Shamballa.
[31:45.860 --> 31:49.580]  Point being, see, I ain't looking for...
[31:49.580 --> 31:50.420]  It's my back issues.
[31:50.640 --> 31:51.020]  Should it?
[31:51.180 --> 31:52.200]  My back issues.
[31:53.080 --> 31:55.640]  They're still, they still have acronyms in it.
[31:55.900 --> 31:57.640]  It's not a baby step thing.
[31:57.800 --> 31:59.940]  And the third question I have of you is...
[32:03.260 --> 32:04.160]  Patience, patience.
[32:05.920 --> 32:10.940]  If you wanted to do something for the zines and the struggling distribution...
[32:16.860 --> 32:24.580]  You might consider like taking advertisements and setting up a fund, like working assets.
[32:24.820 --> 32:29.140]  It sets up a telephone long distance company, but it also has...
[32:29.140 --> 32:31.080]  And a mutual fund, but it also has...
[32:31.080 --> 32:32.800]  That's the lady who owned Snapple before she...
[32:32.800 --> 32:34.480]  Are you suggesting we set up a phone company?
[32:35.100 --> 32:35.580]  Yes!
[32:36.920 --> 32:38.400]  And a credit card!
[32:39.760 --> 32:41.840]  Or you hook up with someone who does.
[32:42.100 --> 32:43.620]  And then you take the money...
[32:43.620 --> 32:44.460]  We got the truck already.
[32:44.920 --> 32:54.440]  And then you take the money and you use it to support zines and struggling artists and novel ways of getting information out.
[32:54.440 --> 32:57.900]  Because it does take bucks like the guy on Epic and whatnot.
[32:58.400 --> 32:59.640]  Working assets is doing it.
[32:59.760 --> 33:04.480]  And she originally was just a rich lady who wanted to find a means to help progressive causes.
[33:04.480 --> 33:25.080]  So there are alternatives, but I think in the face of overweening popularity, you might consider some ways to set up a little pot in which to, beyond just making it available to small distributors, a little pot of something to spread the gold and the cheer and make zines available.
[33:25.080 --> 33:26.300]  I was wondering...
[33:26.300 --> 33:28.900]  Well, we'll try to spread the cheer.
[33:29.100 --> 33:30.700]  Eric, I think we do do that in a sense.
[33:30.960 --> 33:36.420]  For instance, any of our subscribers can run an ad in a bulletin board in the back of the magazine.
[33:36.580 --> 33:37.760]  I mean, we have areas for that.
[33:38.200 --> 33:42.280]  And I think the idea of there being no advertisements, I like the philosophy behind that.
[33:42.380 --> 33:47.640]  I mean, Eric can explain it to you, but it's to safeguard against certain dangers, which I'm sure you're all aware of.
[33:48.400 --> 33:54.400]  Because like any structure, like any organization, you know, there are dangers and we can lose focus of what we're trying to do.
[33:54.400 --> 33:58.440]  And we're under a lot of pressure from people to take advertising.
[33:58.960 --> 34:00.120]  We get hounded all the time.
[34:00.940 --> 34:04.520]  If you franchise 2600, wear a Benetton?
[34:04.960 --> 34:06.560]  No, I'm saying not for business.
[34:06.700 --> 34:11.140]  I'm saying to underwrite zines, struggling zines and such.
[34:11.640 --> 34:13.100]  Can you do such a thing?
[34:13.340 --> 34:20.900]  But you see, we got kind of a single purpose in our minds and that's to just put out a hacker zine.
[34:22.780 --> 34:26.540]  And, you know, we try to do, you know, good-hearted things when we can.
[34:26.780 --> 34:31.360]  And what have you done to ensure that it'll live beyond your mortal lives?
[34:31.580 --> 34:33.600]  The zine and the concept and such.
[34:33.780 --> 34:35.920]  I mean, institutionally or whatever.
[34:36.820 --> 34:39.280]  I think we plan on living a long time.
[34:39.600 --> 34:42.800]  When we're dead, most of you will be too.
[34:46.140 --> 34:47.640]  Our children will take over.
[34:47.660 --> 34:49.760]  And we probably won't last that long anyway.
[34:50.180 --> 34:56.860]  I mean, once it's done and once it's gotten out so far that other people will have taken over.
[34:57.020 --> 35:00.800]  And other zines will have made it and other zines will have prospered.
[35:01.580 --> 35:04.200]  And hopefully there will be competition someday.
[35:04.200 --> 35:04.840]  We want it.
[35:05.400 --> 35:08.520]  And we start something.
[35:08.640 --> 35:09.040]  You want it?
[35:09.100 --> 35:09.520]  Start it.
[35:09.580 --> 35:09.940]  We did.
[35:10.280 --> 35:11.960]  And look where we are.
[35:12.140 --> 35:14.880]  And, you know, there never seems to be a shortage of 15-year-olds.
[35:19.760 --> 35:25.080]  I guess on that shortage of 15-year-olds note, I have a question regarding content.
[35:25.080 --> 35:28.760]  I mean, you're a quarterly, and I realize some quarters are longer than others.
[35:29.300 --> 35:49.680]  And your articles range from kind of content-rich toll-fraud device, as a title, to kind of hacking health, interesting side notes, to there was one I recall, a particular one that aggravated me, was the Hacking High School, which was so completely inane and content-free as to be useless.
[35:49.760 --> 35:53.160]  Was that a humor piece, or were you just really...
[35:53.760 --> 35:55.280]  I remember the article in question.
[35:55.460 --> 36:00.040]  That Hacking High School article led to, I think, three other Hacking High School articles from people that thought they could do it better.
[36:00.440 --> 36:12.060]  Lots of times, we print things, and we try not to spend too much space on these kind of things, but we print things which may not be 100% accurate, but they will start a discussion.
[36:12.400 --> 36:16.880]  They'll start people saying, no, this is not quite the way you do it, you do it this way.
[36:17.380 --> 36:21.640]  And what we have is we have maybe three or four different people participating in the process.
[36:21.640 --> 36:25.800]  That way we've got a discussion going, and in the end, for lucky, we'll have the facts straight.
[36:26.720 --> 36:28.720]  Because we can't check everything.
[36:28.720 --> 36:34.500]  We can't check all the facts as far as what will work on this particular type of system.
[36:34.540 --> 36:35.420]  It's very complicated.
[36:35.840 --> 36:40.040]  And even the most brilliant minds we know get things wrong.
[36:40.240 --> 36:41.340]  They make mistakes.
[36:41.600 --> 36:47.740]  We've had all kinds of mistakes that our best writers have made, and some of them are pretty funny.
[36:47.940 --> 36:52.300]  But it's something that I think is important.
[36:53.160 --> 36:57.880]  We're kind of like a hacker's digest, you know, like a reader's digest type of thing.
[36:58.640 --> 37:03.220]  We don't say that this is our view for every single article we print.
[37:03.220 --> 37:04.980]  We don't say it's 100% correct.
[37:05.200 --> 37:06.740]  This is what the hackers are saying.
[37:06.860 --> 37:07.440]  You're the hackers.
[37:07.580 --> 37:08.500]  You're writing for us.
[37:08.660 --> 37:09.820]  You're sending things in.
[37:09.920 --> 37:11.020]  You're contributing to this.
[37:11.020 --> 37:14.460]  And we're just kind of tying it all up and showing it off.
[37:15.400 --> 37:15.960]  Go ahead.
[37:16.620 --> 37:20.860]  Is there a good story behind why you now have a barcode on the front?
[37:22.580 --> 37:27.780]  Well, one of our alternative distributors actually suggested that to us.
[37:28.360 --> 37:32.500]  They said that if we had a barcode there, it would make their lives easier.
[37:32.920 --> 37:35.160]  And we figured, you know, we'd have fun with the barcode.
[37:36.580 --> 37:38.980]  We have a guy standing on the barcode this time.
[37:39.840 --> 37:44.380]  We had somebody dumping trash into the barcode last time.
[37:44.500 --> 37:47.400]  We actually had a barcode many years ago.
[37:47.620 --> 37:48.860]  It said nine hours on it.
[37:49.120 --> 37:50.200]  Yes, here it is.
[37:50.380 --> 37:50.880]  That's very good.
[37:52.000 --> 37:52.840]  Put it up on the screen.
[37:56.260 --> 37:57.700]  Getting kind of sick of that one anyway.
[38:03.260 --> 38:05.060]  Did anybody scan that?
[38:06.240 --> 38:07.320]  Oh, come on.
[38:07.460 --> 38:07.780]  Nobody?
[38:08.000 --> 38:08.620]  Not one person?
[38:09.220 --> 38:11.260]  Nobody went to a store and scanned that to see what it was.
[38:12.860 --> 38:14.580]  Well, why should we tell you?
[38:15.560 --> 38:16.820]  No effort, no answer.
[38:17.100 --> 38:17.400]  All right.
[38:19.640 --> 38:21.420]  It's like they all want a quick and easy answer right now.
[38:21.420 --> 38:22.580]  Was it cherry or strawberry?
[38:24.060 --> 38:24.880]  Cherry or strawberry.
[38:25.460 --> 38:26.360]  Was it cherry or strawberry?
[38:27.900 --> 38:29.500]  I think it was cherry Pop-Tarts.
[38:29.600 --> 38:30.320]  It might have been strawberry.
[38:30.440 --> 38:30.880]  We're not sure.
[38:33.840 --> 38:34.820]  Okay, now you know.
[38:35.080 --> 38:35.900]  One secret down.
[38:36.820 --> 38:37.140]  That's funny.
[38:37.220 --> 38:37.920]  I thought it was Twinkies.
[38:38.660 --> 38:39.420]  No, it wasn't Twinkies.
[38:39.540 --> 38:39.660]  No.
[38:39.820 --> 38:40.860]  We discussed that, remember?
[38:41.220 --> 38:41.960]  Spam light.
[38:44.800 --> 38:50.740]  Actually, I tried to get a barcode back years ago, but there was too much paperwork.
[38:50.740 --> 38:52.060]  Yeah, we weren't ready for it then.
[38:52.320 --> 38:53.280]  But this is our barcode.
[38:53.360 --> 38:54.640]  Now, we've learned a lot about them.
[38:54.720 --> 38:55.980]  We have a little transparency.
[38:55.980 --> 38:58.080]  We have to include with the cover every single issue.
[38:59.240 --> 39:00.700]  And of course, it's not on that one.
[39:02.100 --> 39:04.200]  But it changes with every issue.
[39:04.620 --> 39:09.440]  It's either one or two or three or four, depending on what time of the year it is.
[39:09.440 --> 39:11.900]  And you can see that on every single magazine out there.
[39:12.600 --> 39:14.560]  So, barcode is kind of cool.
[39:16.780 --> 39:20.620]  I've often wondered about the motivation behind writing 2600.
[39:21.320 --> 39:25.020]  Is it a dissemination of information?
[39:25.260 --> 39:26.400]  Is it a profit?
[39:26.880 --> 39:27.500]  I don't know.
[39:27.680 --> 39:28.600]  I'm just curious.
[39:29.000 --> 39:29.660]  Well, it...
[39:30.300 --> 39:30.800]  Go ahead.
[39:31.880 --> 39:34.640]  There are more than a thousand people at this conference.
[39:34.640 --> 39:37.120]  And I think that pretty much sums it up.
[39:37.120 --> 39:41.040]  We're out to get people together and have discussions and spread information.
[39:41.340 --> 39:42.600]  And I think it's working.
[39:43.940 --> 39:47.840]  It's a good feeling when we put something out and people like it.
[39:47.940 --> 39:49.580]  People write in and say, hey, that was good.
[39:49.960 --> 39:56.400]  Or where it makes actual changes in ways things happen in people's lives.
[39:56.540 --> 40:01.260]  People say, wow, I read this article and I showed it to my school administrator and I got kicked out of school.
[40:02.420 --> 40:06.120]  That kind of thing really makes you realize that writing is a powerful tool.
[40:06.120 --> 40:07.620]  It can move people.
[40:08.040 --> 40:09.400]  It can change things.
[40:09.740 --> 40:28.180]  And I think we've gotten a lot of people to write that would not be writing ordinarily and thinking in very interesting ways, thinking of ways of challenging authority, which is a very positive thing to do, I think, if you know why you're doing it and if you believe that you're right in what you're doing.
[40:30.060 --> 40:41.840]  And just trying to define what the hacker view is, who the hackers are, why we're here, what we're trying to accomplish, and the never-ending task of correcting those people that keep getting it wrong.
[40:43.020 --> 40:46.520]  We have to... I can't tell you the number of times I've had to deal with the house analogy.
[40:46.700 --> 40:47.960]  You know what the house analogy is, right?
[40:49.200 --> 40:53.460]  I wouldn't want someone breaking into my house, so how could you break into my computer?
[40:53.460 --> 40:56.080]  Well, of course, we don't break into your computer.
[40:56.320 --> 41:01.760]  We usually break into big, huge computers of universities and big corporations and things like that.
[41:02.120 --> 41:11.840]  So we get into this long discourse about how it's more like an office building leaving filing cabinets out by the curb, but it never really gets anywhere, and I wind up all frustrated.
[41:11.840 --> 41:20.320]  The average computer was secured as well as the average front door in New York City to be harming any computer intrusion at all.
[41:20.680 --> 41:23.120]  Assuming that front door doesn't have a simplex lock, yes, you're right.
[41:27.800 --> 41:36.780]  I read your story about the day you drove Phiber to Pennsylvania, and I was wondering... I know you are friends with him.
[41:36.780 --> 41:37.840]  How's he doing now?
[41:38.100 --> 41:39.980]  And are you guys in any danger?
[41:40.260 --> 41:43.780]  And do you feel as if that you should stop doing this because...
[41:44.520 --> 41:48.560]  Okay, to update people, Phiber Optik is one of our writers.
[41:49.660 --> 41:51.300]  He's a terrific person.
[41:51.480 --> 41:52.060]  He's a great hacker.
[41:52.800 --> 41:53.860]  He should be here.
[41:53.940 --> 41:54.460]  He really should.
[41:54.600 --> 41:56.800]  And tomorrow we will hear a message from him.
[41:57.240 --> 42:03.360]  He may even be able to get through to us somehow, although the phone system at his prison is all fucked up right now.
[42:04.580 --> 42:06.620]  They won't allow any calls to go through.
[42:07.040 --> 42:09.140]  He can only call collect to certain numbers.
[42:09.440 --> 42:16.100]  And believe it or not, the phone company out there is called Locktel, which is salt rubbed into the wound.
[42:17.820 --> 42:20.560]  But he's currently in prison until November.
[42:22.560 --> 42:30.460]  And it was a sobering experience because, yeah, a year ago we did not think that they would actually send someone like him to prison.
[42:30.460 --> 42:34.500]  I mean, this was a hacker that everybody said didn't do anything malicious.
[42:34.720 --> 42:36.720]  He simply taught people how to do things.
[42:36.860 --> 42:41.920]  He spread information around, yeah, there are malicious people and they should be punished in various ways.
[42:42.140 --> 42:43.900]  No one has ever really argued about that.
[42:44.260 --> 42:46.580]  But here is a case of somebody who clearly was not.
[42:46.880 --> 42:50.040]  And they sent him to prison for a year and a day to prove a point.
[42:50.220 --> 42:51.140]  And the judge said this.
[42:51.240 --> 42:53.880]  He said that you've acted as a symbol.
[42:54.360 --> 42:56.620]  He appeared on the WBAI radio program.
[42:56.620 --> 42:58.720]  He answered callers' questions.
[42:58.720 --> 42:59.980]  He was on television.
[43:00.000 --> 43:01.480]  He was at conferences like this.
[43:01.700 --> 43:03.200]  You ask him something, he'd tell you.
[43:03.520 --> 43:04.740]  That's how he was.
[43:05.200 --> 43:07.540]  And the judge called him a symbol because of that.
[43:07.560 --> 43:09.680]  And he said that he had to sentence him as a symbol.
[43:10.780 --> 43:15.140]  And so our symbol is in prison now until November.
[43:15.540 --> 43:16.420]  And it sucks.
[43:16.780 --> 43:20.280]  Yeah, it makes us worried because we are one step away.
[43:20.500 --> 43:22.380]  This is one step closer to us.
[43:22.820 --> 43:27.460]  If they can get him for conspiracy, which is one of the charges that sent him away.
[43:28.400 --> 43:30.460]  Conspiracy is just talking to a bunch of people.
[43:30.580 --> 43:31.420]  This is conspiracy.
[43:31.800 --> 43:33.160]  2600 meetings are conspiracy.
[43:33.380 --> 43:34.780]  Phone calls can be conspiracies.
[43:35.440 --> 43:39.040]  And the other thing they got him for was possession of access devices.
[43:39.660 --> 43:40.820]  Well, that could be anything.
[43:41.840 --> 43:49.320]  A number written down, a password, even passwords that have been expired have been considered access devices that can get you five years in prison.
[43:49.320 --> 43:51.100]  It's all screwed up.
[43:51.620 --> 43:54.800]  And I think we need to make sure everybody knows it's all screwed up.
[43:55.120 --> 43:58.680]  So if there's any good that came out of the fiber optic case, I think more people heard about it.
[43:58.820 --> 44:00.560]  It was in a lot of newspapers.
[44:01.400 --> 44:04.080]  People really get the sense that this was not the right thing to do.
[44:05.500 --> 44:08.640]  I hope it never happens again, but we are on the lookout for that.
[44:08.800 --> 44:10.900]  A quick follow-up question.
[44:10.900 --> 44:16.200]  Have you guys ever received any submissions that you thought was too dangerous or too controversial?
[44:16.660 --> 44:19.680]  We've gotten internal documents from all kinds of places.
[44:20.900 --> 44:29.320]  In such a case, if it's interesting, if it's something that we feel our readers would benefit from, we make a news story out of it.
[44:29.780 --> 44:32.720]  We will not reveal the source of any documents.
[44:32.720 --> 44:33.960]  We will never do that.
[44:35.860 --> 44:38.700]  However, if somebody sends us something, we're not going to cover it up.
[44:38.800 --> 44:43.800]  We're not going to say, this is proprietary information and we can't do anything with it.
[44:43.900 --> 44:44.280]  Well, it's out.
[44:44.580 --> 44:46.280]  The news story is that we have it.
[44:46.480 --> 44:46.620]  Okay?
[44:46.680 --> 44:53.340]  Somebody gave it to us, whether they jumped into a trash can or found it on a computer system someplace, it's out.
[44:53.340 --> 45:04.820]  So according to a document we received, this is, you know, it's not the same thing as reprinting the document, which is what they tried to get frack for back in 1990.
[45:04.880 --> 45:08.220]  So that was a crazy case in itself.
[45:10.160 --> 45:11.820]  But we know where the lines are.
[45:12.000 --> 45:14.300]  That doesn't mean that people aren't trying to change the lines.
[45:14.560 --> 45:17.300]  It doesn't mean that it could change next year.
[45:17.840 --> 45:19.280]  We have to be on the lookout for that.
[45:19.280 --> 45:23.140]  But we do know where we stand and we don't intend to move.
[45:26.020 --> 45:26.900]  No other questions?
[45:28.400 --> 45:30.480]  No one wants to know if our lines are bugged?
[45:30.820 --> 45:31.740]  You can't ask a question.
[45:32.820 --> 45:34.400]  You're on the panel, you can't ask a question.
[45:34.500 --> 45:35.160]  I got a question.
[45:36.200 --> 45:40.000]  I notice on every issue on the bottom, on the back cover, there's a little saying.
[45:41.140 --> 45:42.260]  Where do you get those?
[45:45.120 --> 45:46.040]  I don't know what you mean.
[45:46.140 --> 45:46.680]  What sayings?
[45:46.840 --> 45:47.360]  The little sayings...
[45:47.940 --> 45:48.600]  Podium in the way.
[45:48.600 --> 45:49.960]  What were the labels used to go over?
[45:50.120 --> 45:51.520]  Where the labels used to go over?
[45:51.520 --> 45:52.260]  Okay, I know what you mean.
[45:52.320 --> 45:52.800]  Those little things.
[45:52.880 --> 45:54.000]  Yeah, we don't put labels on it anymore.
[45:54.000 --> 45:56.740]  But we decided we wanted to keep the little sayings, actually.
[45:57.440 --> 45:58.380]  Where do they come from?
[45:59.140 --> 46:00.260]  We make them up.
[46:00.420 --> 46:01.280]  We sit around.
[46:01.440 --> 46:04.060]  We spend an evening throwing phrases at each other.
[46:04.440 --> 46:05.200]  Do you have a favorite?
[46:06.440 --> 46:10.080]  If you peel off your label from very old issues...
[46:10.080 --> 46:10.980]  How many people don't know about this?
[46:10.980 --> 46:11.760]  You'll find little messages.
[46:13.020 --> 46:15.520]  I also have a question about the last issue.
[46:15.520 --> 46:18.020]  Before, I guess it was spring.
[46:19.480 --> 46:20.020]  Do you want to put it up?
[46:25.450 --> 46:26.470]  Oh, I like that one.
[46:26.670 --> 46:27.150]  Right here.
[46:27.530 --> 46:27.970]  These numbers.
[46:29.510 --> 46:30.310]  What about them?
[46:31.090 --> 46:33.030]  Well, try to...
[46:36.690 --> 46:38.330]  Did this disturb anybody else?
[46:41.410 --> 46:44.250]  We try to make our covers nice and harmonious.
[46:44.610 --> 46:45.610]  He won't tell me.
[46:46.410 --> 46:46.870]  9...
[46:46.870 --> 46:48.510]  Well, I figured out part of it.
[46:52.830 --> 46:55.890]  9x10555-91755-59941.
[46:56.210 --> 46:57.230]  I can't figure that out.
[46:57.310 --> 46:58.330]  Does anybody out there know?
[46:59.230 --> 47:00.930]  That's a secret code and I...
[47:00.930 --> 47:01.710]  You gotta figure it out.
[47:02.170 --> 47:04.030]  I figured out the first...
[47:04.030 --> 47:04.350]  The top line.
[47:04.930 --> 47:05.370]  917.
[47:06.850 --> 47:10.910]  917 is an area code in New York that is just for beepers and pagers.
[47:13.730 --> 47:14.890]  And cell phones, I'm sorry.
[47:15.910 --> 47:17.350]  And what was the other part?
[47:18.530 --> 47:20.570]  555 is like...
[47:22.170 --> 47:23.210]  555 could be...
[47:23.210 --> 47:24.470]  Yeah, it could be information.
[47:24.870 --> 47:27.870]  They've opened that up to other companies now that provide information services.
[47:27.870 --> 47:28.870]  Was there another part of it?
[47:30.190 --> 47:31.390]  The 9x part.
[47:32.090 --> 47:43.030]  Well, there's 9x and then 10555, which I know 10555 is the carrier access code for a company called Wiltel, which is NYNEX, Wiltel, and then I can't figure out the rest.
[47:43.530 --> 47:44.450]  What you see...
[47:44.450 --> 47:49.970]  What you have to understand about our covers is that lots of times they mean different things to different people.
[47:50.110 --> 47:57.290]  Now, while you may see 9x and Wiltel and information and 917 in there, what I see is a mathematical equation.
[47:57.290 --> 48:09.930]  And if you follow that mathematical equation, in fact, 9 times 1055 minus 91,755 minus...
[48:09.930 --> 48:10.830]  What were the other two numbers?
[48:11.130 --> 48:11.690]  599.
[48:12.410 --> 48:12.970]  Right.
[48:13.750 --> 48:14.510]  Do that.
[48:14.650 --> 48:14.950]  41.
[48:15.590 --> 48:17.310]  Yeah, and it adds up to 2600.
[48:26.200 --> 48:27.380]  Are you happy now?
[48:28.200 --> 48:29.100]  Yes, thanks.
[48:31.520 --> 48:33.060]  Well, none of you guys got it.
[48:35.300 --> 48:38.360]  And there's more too, believe me, ones you haven't seen yet.
[48:39.400 --> 48:43.420]  Does everyone know what's special about the summer 1993 cover?
[48:45.200 --> 48:47.120]  The Waldo Find the Hacker cover?
[48:47.320 --> 48:48.920]  Does everyone know what's special about this one?
[48:49.000 --> 48:49.700]  Do you want me to put it up?
[48:50.280 --> 48:51.420]  Yeah, let's see if we can put it up.
[48:53.600 --> 48:55.060]  That one's got a weird barcode on it.
[48:55.220 --> 48:55.420]  City Corp?
[48:56.620 --> 48:57.220]  Here it is.
[48:57.620 --> 48:59.660]  Well, it's a City Corp-ish type of place.
[49:04.050 --> 49:07.030]  You might not see it up on the overhead, though.
[49:07.030 --> 49:07.510]  No, that's true.
[49:07.590 --> 49:08.290]  I'll have to explain it.
[49:12.030 --> 49:16.990]  Well, it turns out that under certain lighting conditions, the hacker will appear.
[49:17.090 --> 49:19.210]  And I'm sure with that clue, you can all figure it out.
[49:19.310 --> 49:22.190]  Well, why don't you read what it says underneath our address?
[49:22.950 --> 49:24.090]  Anybody read that little comment?
[49:24.970 --> 49:25.370]  Here.
[49:25.370 --> 49:25.750]  Oh, here.
[49:26.490 --> 49:26.630]  Here.
[49:26.790 --> 49:27.470]  What's it say?
[49:28.610 --> 49:30.310]  It says the light is black.
[49:30.510 --> 49:31.530]  The light is black.
[49:32.990 --> 49:35.130]  Use a black light and you will see the hacker.
[49:38.310 --> 49:40.170]  That cost us a pretty penny, too, you know.
[49:41.010 --> 49:42.110]  We've got this big jar.
[49:42.290 --> 49:44.790]  It says invisible ink on it, just like a cartoon.
[49:44.990 --> 49:52.270]  And of course, once you go out and buy all those black lights, you'll want to check each and every issue, because sometimes we print extra bonus articles in that ink as well.
[49:54.810 --> 49:57.450]  In fact, that's where the real information is, you know.
[49:59.010 --> 50:01.050]  If you ever get a blank page from us, don't throw it out.
[50:01.210 --> 50:02.950]  I know a lot of people get blank pages sometimes.
[50:04.890 --> 50:05.550]  That's a good one.
[50:07.370 --> 50:12.550]  While we're on the topic of meanings, you've got a picture of Ben, these little pictures that are on the right-hand corner.
[50:13.710 --> 50:15.050]  What's the meaning behind them?
[50:15.270 --> 50:17.670]  Like, for instance, this one, Ben Franklin.
[50:18.050 --> 50:24.270]  Well, you know, it's interesting, because in our early issues, we had little... I don't know where these boxes came from, but...
[50:24.270 --> 50:24.990]  I kind of like that.
[50:25.010 --> 50:25.210]  Put some of those up.
[50:25.390 --> 50:27.310]  I think I... I just kind of like that.
[50:27.530 --> 50:27.850]  Yeah.
[50:28.310 --> 50:30.170]  It wasn't in 1984 so much.
[50:30.330 --> 50:30.610]  No.
[50:31.470 --> 50:34.490]  But around 1985, we just started having...
[50:34.490 --> 50:36.950]  Little, you know, waves out to everybody.
[50:36.950 --> 50:37.430]  Hold this one up.
[50:37.650 --> 50:39.470]  The guy pushing against the 2600.
[50:40.150 --> 50:40.570]  Hold that up.
[50:41.510 --> 50:42.610]  Little guy pushing...
[50:42.610 --> 50:45.190]  That was like one of our little artistic flares there.
[50:45.190 --> 50:50.630]  And then that turned into a box of various phone-related items.
[50:50.770 --> 50:57.510]  And when we changed format in 1987, we decided to hold on to the box, and we always put something kind of neat in there.
[50:57.890 --> 50:59.910]  Now, in this particular case, what do you see there?
[51:00.410 --> 51:02.070]  Ben Franklin with five fingers up.
[51:02.190 --> 51:02.450]  Right.
[51:02.650 --> 51:04.590]  Well, what do you think he's doing with those five fingers?
[51:06.870 --> 51:08.470]  First of all, those are not his five fingers.
[51:08.570 --> 51:10.190]  Those are your five fingers, I believe.
[51:10.390 --> 51:10.930]  Oh, are they?
[51:11.030 --> 51:12.210]  Yeah, they are your five fingers.
[51:12.830 --> 51:14.230]  We scanned them at one point.
[51:14.230 --> 51:15.130]  When I was asleep, probably.
[51:15.270 --> 51:16.650]  That's because we couldn't find his five fingers.
[51:16.790 --> 51:19.110]  But we wanted to have Ben Franklin waving goodbye.
[51:19.790 --> 51:24.750]  And the reason for that was because we had named our laser printer after Ben Franklin.
[51:25.290 --> 51:29.090]  In fact, if you look in the issues and the shout-outs, there was always a shout-out to Franklin.
[51:29.230 --> 51:33.350]  That was our trusty Apple laser printer, which was leaving us at that point.
[51:33.950 --> 51:35.010]  And now we have a new one.
[51:35.490 --> 51:43.610]  Also, we've been told that intelligence organizations hire people full-time to basically go over the content and everything that...
[51:43.990 --> 51:44.250]  Right.
[51:44.370 --> 51:44.910]  We've been told that.
[51:45.070 --> 51:47.050]  So, to make their lives interesting...
[51:48.790 --> 51:51.430]  Not every item has symbolic content.
[51:51.690 --> 51:52.010]  Okay.
[51:52.010 --> 51:53.030]  Some do and some don't.
[51:53.210 --> 51:53.850]  Keeps them guessing.
[51:54.250 --> 51:54.390]  Sure.
[51:55.390 --> 51:59.770]  Actually, prisons pay people full-time to go through 2600.
[51:59.770 --> 52:00.990]  You mean like travel agents?
[52:01.290 --> 52:02.630]  They do this stuff with...
[52:02.630 --> 52:04.970]  Well, I don't know if travel agents work in prisons, but...
[52:04.970 --> 52:05.450]  Well, I mean...
[52:06.890 --> 52:07.330]  State...
[52:07.330 --> 52:07.670]  State...
[52:07.670 --> 52:08.290]  No, they do.
[52:08.370 --> 52:10.250]  Did anybody see TV Nation last week?
[52:10.250 --> 52:10.530]  Yeah.
[52:10.590 --> 52:11.790]  They actually do work in prison.
[52:11.910 --> 52:12.890]  Sometimes they call us...
[52:12.890 --> 52:15.590]  They call us up anonymously and give us ideas.
[52:15.910 --> 52:16.330]  You know?
[52:16.490 --> 52:18.990]  We'll get some tips about how to make their lives interesting.
[52:19.170 --> 52:21.990]  But usually we have a subscriber in prison who...
[52:21.990 --> 52:30.930]  We get a letter from the prison that says, we're sorry we couldn't deliver this because of something on page 23 and so on.
[52:31.770 --> 52:37.330]  Once they screwed up and they checked off the wrong box, they said we were sending sexually explicit material.
[52:38.510 --> 52:42.330]  And we looked at the entire issue with the fine tooth comb to find out what they were talking about.
[52:42.490 --> 52:43.990]  It turns out they checked the wrong box.
[52:43.990 --> 52:46.010]  It was invisible ink again.
[52:46.410 --> 52:46.570]  Yeah.
[52:47.850 --> 52:53.270]  But what we usually do when we get such a letter is we print it, but we found that with prisons it has sort of a domino effect.
[52:53.270 --> 53:01.490]  That if you print a letter from a prison saying that the magazine is not acceptable for a prison, well, another prison is going to see that letter and say, well, this isn't acceptable for us.
[53:01.650 --> 53:05.790]  And all of a sudden we're getting all this mail back from prisons and the prisoners aren't getting the 2600s.
[53:07.050 --> 53:09.930]  So it's kind of a, you know, we sort of held back on that.
[53:10.050 --> 53:13.250]  We still get lots of, lots of letters from prisons saying they don't like what we're doing.
[53:13.690 --> 53:14.970]  Just another comment here.
[53:15.050 --> 53:17.810]  Do you think you guys could check out schematics before you print them?
[53:18.170 --> 53:20.730]  You know, we do have a tradition.
[53:21.150 --> 53:21.250]  Yeah.
[53:21.370 --> 53:22.730]  Perhaps you'd like to go into that a little more.
[53:24.930 --> 53:30.030]  The tradition was there long before I started, but really we try to do our best with that.
[53:30.170 --> 53:34.110]  And we have been good about corrections and this is what I would suggest.
[53:34.110 --> 53:38.150]  Next time we print a schematic, forget it's even there until the next issue.
[53:38.350 --> 53:40.770]  And then, then assemble it.
[53:41.150 --> 53:48.290]  But I think for instance, probably what you're referring to the, the toll fraud devices or whatever, it's probably well worth the wait, right?
[53:48.990 --> 53:49.210]  Yeah.
[53:49.470 --> 53:50.210]  Keep, keep you on it.
[53:50.350 --> 53:52.370]  Keep people like me on, on our toes.
[53:52.770 --> 53:52.870]  Yeah.
[53:53.910 --> 53:55.130]  It was written on a napkin.
[53:55.810 --> 53:56.250]  Okay.
[53:56.450 --> 53:57.070]  It really was.
[53:57.210 --> 53:59.370]  It was designed and written on a napkin.
[53:59.670 --> 54:05.390]  And it just, uh, it just, I guess one of the creases sort of, made for a misunderstanding of sorts.
[54:06.650 --> 54:08.370]  There was a, there was a stain on a napkin.
[54:09.210 --> 54:09.570]  What?
[54:09.650 --> 54:10.670]  One, one, one last question.
[54:10.670 --> 54:18.170]  I just wanted to find out, um, what made all you guys get interested in, in, in like hacking this kind, kind of stuff, computers and that kind of stuff?
[54:18.710 --> 54:19.670]  That's all I want to leave.
[54:20.190 --> 54:20.890]  Anybody want that?
[54:21.210 --> 54:21.870]  I'll take it.
[54:22.030 --> 54:22.150]  Go ahead.
[54:23.130 --> 54:30.710]  Oh, um, I was eight and, and, and my, my, or my, my parents didn't want to leave me home alone.
[54:30.870 --> 54:35.490]  So they sent me to this daycare and they had, uh, called color computers, Tandys
[54:35.490 --> 54:41.610]  And, and I always like to type in basic and like 10, uh, print Ben is cool.
[54:41.950 --> 54:43.850]  20, go to 10.
[54:44.170 --> 54:56.050]  And, and when I did that the first time and saw the teachers, you know, running towards me, slapping, trying to slap me, I, I immediately knew that computer mischief was for me.
[54:57.250 --> 54:58.890]  Oh, she does a song, Ben.
[54:59.710 --> 55:02.270]  Well, uh, I didn't do that, but, uh.
[55:02.730 --> 55:03.590]  I did that.
[55:04.130 --> 55:05.070]  I was 20.
[55:09.450 --> 55:10.730]  I didn't have to wonder about this.
[55:11.230 --> 55:12.470]  Uh, well, I don't know.
[55:12.590 --> 55:15.150]  I, I wandered into my high school computer room once.
[55:15.410 --> 55:16.870]  Not knowing what was going on.
[55:17.010 --> 55:22.050]  300 bought, uh, uh, digital printers, which were fast back then.
[55:22.710 --> 55:23.150]  1977.
[55:24.150 --> 55:25.870]  Um, and I was fascinated by it.
[55:25.870 --> 55:28.630]  We would play Star Trek and we would communicate with other schools.
[55:29.070 --> 55:31.630]  And of course I, I wound up doing something I wasn't supposed to do.
[55:31.710 --> 55:42.830]  And I got kicked out of the computer room and that started on sort of a long ending tussle, which I guess continues to this day of, uh, of fighting the rules and, and getting in trouble for various things and, and getting further ahead.
[55:43.330 --> 55:50.030]  As far as real serious hacking though, I have to, I have to trace a lot of that back to a computer bulletin board called OSUNY.
[55:50.710 --> 55:52.010]  Any, any users of that?
[55:52.350 --> 55:53.190]  Oh my God.
[55:54.090 --> 55:54.450]  Okay.
[55:55.050 --> 55:55.710]  Are you supposed to clap?
[55:55.710 --> 55:58.990]  But, uh, uh, Sherwood Forrest?
[56:01.170 --> 56:01.830]  All right.
[56:02.550 --> 56:04.550]  Uh, and we met people on there.
[56:04.810 --> 56:07.410]  I met people on there that were really cool.
[56:07.930 --> 56:13.730]  And we kind of invited them onto voice bulletin board systems called, uh, IBM's audio distribution systems.
[56:13.790 --> 56:14.510]  Anyone ever use those?
[56:14.510 --> 56:15.130]  Oh my God.
[56:15.290 --> 56:16.050]  Those were cool.
[56:17.270 --> 56:18.310]  Those were cool.
[56:18.310 --> 56:18.790]  Those were cool systems.
[56:19.130 --> 56:23.650]  They, they ran on, uh, on, on, on these mainframes, I think, but you could do all kinds of neat things with them.
[56:23.750 --> 56:25.950]  You can increase the speed of the, of the playback.
[56:25.970 --> 56:32.190]  You could actually, you could actually add a comment in the middle of a word of somebody else's and, and edit things.
[56:32.330 --> 56:33.570]  It was, it was really pretty neat.
[56:33.730 --> 56:36.350]  It was kind of like a batch job teleconference.
[56:36.350 --> 56:36.610]  Yeah.
[56:36.770 --> 56:45.170]  And the great thing was, the great thing was that, uh, that IBM had all these systems and they all had 800 numbers.
[56:45.270 --> 56:48.090]  And of course, back then 800 numbers didn't get your number that when you called them.
[56:48.770 --> 56:53.850]  And IBM employees would undoubtedly make the password something like IBM or, or their first name.
[56:54.050 --> 56:57.470]  And since they gave you their first name when you called it, it was, it was relatively simple.
[56:57.850 --> 56:59.330]  And they didn't use it very much.
[56:59.450 --> 57:01.330]  They used it for business, but they didn't use it for fun.
[57:01.410 --> 57:02.430]  Well, we used it for fun.
[57:02.890 --> 57:08.510]  And it wasn't until their phone lines started getting tied up by us that they started taking notice of the fact that we were in there more than they were.
[57:08.890 --> 57:13.490]  Uh, but this gave us an opportunity to communicate coast to coast, absolutely for free.
[57:13.570 --> 57:16.130]  And it was the most amazing feeling that we could possibly have.
[57:16.450 --> 57:20.070]  Uh, now a lot of us can do that legally on the internet and that's pretty cool.
[57:20.570 --> 57:23.530]  Um, but that's how I got my start.
[57:23.850 --> 57:27.130]  That led to more things, uh, including indictments.
[57:27.670 --> 57:36.630]  But, uh, but I think it was the feeling of just being able to, uh, to access all of this, to get all these people that led to the founding of the magazine.
[57:36.830 --> 57:39.890]  And just led to more people coming together and sharing information.
[57:43.200 --> 57:43.520]  Yes?
[57:43.680 --> 57:44.720]  Are we ready to start the crypto session?
[57:45.160 --> 57:47.140]  Are we ready to start the cryptography session?
[57:47.440 --> 57:47.760]  Yes.
[57:49.280 --> 57:50.320]  If there are no more questions.
[57:52.180 --> 57:53.580]  No, no, these are the crypto session.
[57:53.920 --> 57:54.580]  Oh, these are, okay.
[57:55.580 --> 57:57.540]  Unless there are any more questions, we're, we're finished.
[57:58.280 --> 57:58.540]  Okay.
[57:59.640 --> 58:00.080]  Thanks.
[58:00.260 --> 58:00.920]  Thanks for coming.
[58:01.380 --> 58:01.460]  Thanks.
[58:01.460 --> 58:01.580]  Thanks for coming.
[58:14.580 --> 58:15.560]  Do you want your issue?
[58:21.440 --> 58:24.180]  Do you want your issue?
[58:26.280 --> 58:27.100]  Do you want your issue?
[58:27.760 --> 58:31.480]  Oh, just when you're out.
[58:33.180 --> 58:36.760]  Uh, first Friday of the NFC.
[58:36.760 --> 58:37.600]  Thank you.