[00:01.210 --> 00:05.350]  We will be starting up in just a minute or two.
[00:06.490 --> 00:07.690]  Here comes Ryan.
[00:12.440 --> 00:13.080]  Yeah.
[00:13.680 --> 00:14.320]  Yeah.
[00:14.720 --> 00:14.780]  Yeah.
[00:15.160 --> 00:15.200]  Yeah.
[00:16.640 --> 00:17.280]  Yeah.
[00:20.680 --> 00:22.120]  Definitely hook yourself up, Ryan.
[05:07.660 --> 05:08.300]  Check.
[05:08.800 --> 05:09.380]  Hi.
[05:14.730 --> 05:15.550]  I am.
[05:16.850 --> 05:17.930]  Are we on?
[05:18.030 --> 05:18.530]  Oh, good.
[05:18.950 --> 05:20.130]  Welcome to Beyond HOPE.
[07:18.860 --> 07:19.500]  Hello?
[07:20.000 --> 07:20.620]  Oh, okay.
[07:22.060 --> 07:23.320]  Let's try that again.
[07:24.600 --> 07:25.720]  One moment, please.
[07:27.280 --> 07:27.920]  Yes?
[07:28.720 --> 07:29.360]  Hello?
[07:31.320 --> 07:32.760]  Can I do that a little later?
[07:33.940 --> 07:34.720]  Thank you.
[07:35.480 --> 07:36.180]  No, it's no problem.
[07:37.620 --> 07:38.260]  Okay.
[07:38.380 --> 07:38.500]  Bye.
[07:39.460 --> 07:40.100]  Okay.
[07:40.640 --> 07:41.140]  Okay.
[07:41.360 --> 07:41.520]  Bye.
[07:41.520 --> 07:41.520]  Bye.
[07:44.160 --> 07:45.280]  Welcome to Beyond HOPE.
[07:53.390 --> 07:55.470]  We're only starting about 10 minutes late this year.
[07:55.830 --> 07:58.430]  Three years ago, we started about two hours late, so we're getting better.
[07:58.830 --> 08:02.110]  And as you may have noticed, registration went smoothly this time.
[08:02.470 --> 08:04.930]  So didn't have to wait around all morning.
[08:05.250 --> 08:07.310]  Thanks to all the registration volunteers out there.
[08:08.330 --> 08:10.090]  We have a lot of things going on.
[08:10.310 --> 08:19.230]  Right now, we're looking at live pictures from our twin conference in Holland, the Hacking in Progress, where they're... I don't know what they're doing, actually.
[08:19.450 --> 08:23.810]  But, you know, we have this PictureTel unit, and we can control the camera from here.
[08:24.290 --> 08:26.710]  Can we do, like, a pullback or something?
[08:27.590 --> 08:30.650]  Or pull forward or... See, we're doing that.
[08:30.770 --> 08:33.690]  We're controlling their camera right now over there, over in Holland.
[08:34.230 --> 08:40.330]  Now, it looks a little bit jerky, and the reason for that is because it requires three ISDN lines.
[08:40.450 --> 08:41.930]  Right now, we're only using one.
[08:42.470 --> 08:45.930]  We will be using three later on today, as soon as we iron out a few kinks.
[08:46.350 --> 08:50.010]  But the idea is to have them communicate with us real-time.
[08:50.150 --> 08:51.430]  We can communicate with them real-time.
[08:51.430 --> 08:55.650]  So it's breaking-edge technology, cutting-edge technology, whatnot.
[08:56.270 --> 09:04.310]  This is also the first hacker convention in this country I've been to that actually has a really good connection to the outside Internet.
[09:04.930 --> 09:11.570]  And for that, we should thank Marco and all the other network people that have worked long through the night to get that happening.
[09:17.040 --> 09:17.980]  Ryan is here.
[09:18.100 --> 09:25.660]  He's got some updates on network stuff that's happening, things to do, things not to do, and problems we've had so far, and what we're hoping to accomplish.
[09:25.840 --> 09:25.980]  Ryan?
[09:26.760 --> 09:29.220]  I'm not even going to start with the things not to do.
[09:29.340 --> 09:30.620]  You guys all know what those are, right?
[09:32.640 --> 09:37.220]  Yeah, we have a 10 megabit connection to the Internet.
[09:37.920 --> 09:39.020]  It's multi-homed.
[09:39.520 --> 09:41.280]  Odds are we're not going to fall down.
[09:46.800 --> 09:49.100]  That's about seven T1s worth of bandwidth.
[09:50.220 --> 09:53.140]  So, uh, look at all the pictures you want.
[09:54.020 --> 10:01.780]  Um, the logistics, if you brought a computer and you want to plug it into the network room, uh, I hope you saw the network room as you came in.
[10:02.020 --> 10:03.660]  It's the room with all the computers in it.
[10:03.980 --> 10:08.020]  Uh, there's, uh, if you've got hubs, we love you.
[10:08.400 --> 10:10.040]  Uh, plug them in some place and share.
[10:10.540 --> 10:15.700]  Uh, if you need, I'll start with the, uh, serious geek stuff.
[10:15.880 --> 10:20.140]  If you know what DHCP is, and you can use it, do.
[10:21.220 --> 10:23.940]  Uh, and now you're on the net.
[10:24.540 --> 10:34.660]  Uh, if you need a static IP, um, I will be in the network room after this, uh, and we'll be giving out static IPs for you.
[10:34.840 --> 10:38.220]  Uh, what it involves is, uh, we'll give you a piece of paper with a number on it.
[10:38.380 --> 10:46.480]  If you already have a static IP, if I've talked to you already and given you a number, um, you need to come to me and pick up the piece of paper with your number on it.
[10:46.620 --> 10:49.860]  So, uh, if there's a conflict, uh, you win.
[10:51.400 --> 11:01.520]  Um, if you don't have a computer, ignore everything I've said because you don't need to know numbers, uh, DNS servers, net masks, stuff like that.
[11:01.740 --> 11:10.620]  Um, if you do have a computer, all that information is on a poster up, uh, near the doorway between the network room and the commerce room where you can buy stuff.
[11:11.000 --> 11:14.420]  Uh, if you don't have a computer, by the way, you can still participate.
[11:14.440 --> 11:20.060]  You can, uh, look over people's shoulders, ask a lot of questions, and make use of the public terminals that we have as well.
[11:20.240 --> 11:22.100]  Yeah, we have banks of, uh, public x terminals.
[11:22.240 --> 11:24.160]  We have banks of public dumb terminals.
[11:24.740 --> 11:27.360]  Uh, there are guest logins for those.
[11:27.620 --> 11:33.780]  Um, the beyond.hope.net machine is apparently ready for human consumption.
[11:34.220 --> 11:53.380]  And, uh, we will have a, at least a couple, if not a handful of hope.net, uh, not volunteers, uh, that will be giving out your usernames and passwords, uh, in a, as orderly a fashion as we can manage.
[11:54.160 --> 11:57.980]  Um, look for me in the network room.
[11:58.200 --> 12:02.120]  I will be with the people who know how to do that.
[12:02.880 --> 12:05.680]  Uh, there's pieces of paper circulating around.
[12:05.860 --> 12:08.060]  I hope most of you got one when you came in.
[12:08.400 --> 12:10.640]  That, uh, it's a form that you can fill out.
[12:10.740 --> 12:13.060]  Say this is what I'd like my username to be.
[12:13.360 --> 12:16.400]  Uh, I'm sure we'll have five or six fibers.
[12:16.940 --> 12:17.480]  Oh yeah.
[12:17.680 --> 12:17.960]  Oh yeah.
[12:18.500 --> 12:30.600]  Um, so, uh, have that in your hand when you reach the front of the very, very orderly line to the knock network operations center volunteers.
[12:31.520 --> 12:31.920]  Okay.
[12:32.200 --> 12:33.400]  Uh, we're about ready to begin.
[12:33.480 --> 12:34.220]  Just a couple of notes.
[12:34.400 --> 12:36.380]  We've, we've had all kinds of media people here.
[12:36.560 --> 12:38.060]  Uh, there are TV crews around.
[12:38.180 --> 12:41.540]  If you don't want to be filmed, just tell them so, and they will leave you alone.
[12:41.660 --> 12:44.800]  And if they don't leave you alone, tell one of us, and we'll take care of them.
[12:45.720 --> 12:50.140]  Um, expect lots of people to be around, though, looking at what you're doing.
[12:50.520 --> 12:52.160]  Expect that you're being watched at all times.
[12:52.220 --> 12:54.340]  If you have a machine on the network, expect to be hacked.
[12:54.960 --> 12:56.280]  Because that's what we're all here for.
[12:57.280 --> 13:01.560]  Um, we have a couple of, uh, interesting marketing type things.
[13:01.660 --> 13:06.140]  First of all, we had nothing to do with all these stickers popping up on pay phones throughout the town.
[13:06.340 --> 13:09.300]  So, uh, we don't condone that kind of activity.
[13:09.440 --> 13:11.800]  Though it is kind of interesting how they look just like NYNEX stickers.
[13:12.940 --> 13:17.420]  Um, speaking, speaking of stickers, I have it on good authority.
[13:17.580 --> 13:18.200]  And this is the truth.
[13:18.200 --> 13:19.540]  This is the God's honest truth.
[13:20.300 --> 13:29.120]  In the Oval Office, in the White House, President Clinton's office, underneath the rug, you will find one of these.
[13:30.200 --> 13:31.460]  Don't ask me how.
[13:32.420 --> 13:35.760]  One of the Beyond HOPE original stickers that was sent out to all the subscribers.
[13:35.920 --> 13:39.500]  I don't know if he's a subscriber and he stuck it there, but I happen to know for a fact.
[13:39.600 --> 13:43.160]  And this will drive the Secret Service crazy, because they're going to have to rip up the carpet.
[13:43.160 --> 13:44.260]  But when they do,
[13:49.020 --> 13:51.820]  to coin a phrase, we are everywhere.
[13:53.860 --> 13:56.800]  Uh, a couple of things that we have this time we've never had before.
[13:57.100 --> 14:06.080]  Uh, we have CD-ROMs over in the merchandising room of, uh, Off the Hook, which is the radio show that we do on the radio station WBAI here in New York.
[14:06.220 --> 14:10.640]  It has to do with hacking, uh, 2600, all kinds of neat things that have happened throughout the years.
[14:10.840 --> 14:12.920]  We've been doing this since 1988, actually.
[14:12.920 --> 14:15.020]  And this is the first time all these shows have been available.
[14:15.520 --> 14:18.320]  And, uh, we're making it as cheap as we possibly can make it.
[14:18.440 --> 14:23.680]  So, if you want to listen to some shows on CD-ROM, there's about two years worth of shows on each CD-ROM.
[14:24.000 --> 14:25.480]  Uh, like about a hundred hours.
[14:25.760 --> 14:27.540]  And it uses the real audio format.
[14:28.100 --> 14:30.280]  Uh, so, check out the merchandising room.
[14:31.900 --> 14:34.500]  Uh, and, uh, ask people about those kind of things.
[14:34.580 --> 14:37.060]  But, uh, we have, we have a limited supply of those.
[14:37.280 --> 14:40.900]  So, uh, we're also a limited supply of these major hacking cookies.
[14:40.900 --> 14:44.740]  I don't know if anybody has seen these, but, uh, there's, there's a, he's gonna be here later, actually.
[14:44.880 --> 14:46.440]  There's a guy who is in the army.
[14:46.920 --> 14:49.060]  He's a major, and his last name is Hacking.
[14:50.120 --> 14:51.360]  And, he makes cookies.
[14:51.520 --> 14:52.300]  And they're really good, too.
[14:52.480 --> 14:54.700]  So, do you want some souvenirs to bring back?
[14:54.800 --> 14:56.260]  We thought this would be kind of a cool thing to have.
[14:56.400 --> 14:58.520]  So, major hacking cookies available in three flavors.
[14:59.300 --> 15:02.080]  Uh, we also have the new issue of 2600, which just came out.
[15:03.100 --> 15:04.320]  Don't ask me who's on the cover.
[15:04.440 --> 15:04.880]  I don't know.
[15:05.140 --> 15:08.420]  And we have the free issue, which, uh, is available to anybody who wants it.
[15:08.420 --> 15:12.080]  Uh, we have a bunch of other things to tell you, but we'll tell you those throughout the day.
[15:12.180 --> 15:14.420]  We don't want to, uh, keep Brock Meeks waiting any longer.
[15:15.020 --> 15:20.640]  Uh, Brock is, um, someone who's been within the hacker community for quite some time.
[15:20.920 --> 15:31.840]  Uh, back in 1992, uh, we had an incident in Washington's Pentagon City Mall at the 2600 meeting, uh, where security guards broke up the meeting.
[15:31.840 --> 15:45.300]  Well, Brock Meeks is the reporter who discovered Monday morning by calling up the security office that the Secret Service was behind the whole operation, and they had ordered the security guards to illegally detain and search people.
[15:45.700 --> 15:48.040]  The funny thing is, he called them at 9 o'clock.
[15:48.140 --> 15:53.880]  At about 9.15, the security guards got a call from the Secret Service saying, don't tell anybody about this.
[15:53.880 --> 16:00.660]  So, uh, it's, uh, an example of how good journalists can get the story before, uh, anybody can stop them.
[16:01.100 --> 16:13.140]  Uh, since then, Brock has been, uh, a key player in the fight against Clipper, uh, the fight against digital telephony, all kinds of privacy issues that affect every last one of us with or without computers.
[16:13.380 --> 16:16.880]  And now you can see Brock Meeks as a regular correspondent on MSNBC.
[16:18.060 --> 16:22.140]  Uh, and Brock is here today, and he's our keynote speaker.
[16:22.140 --> 16:24.180]  And I'm pleased to introduce Brock Meeks.
[16:39.790 --> 16:40.990]  Thank you very much.
[16:41.310 --> 16:42.650]  It's a pleasure to be here.
[16:43.370 --> 16:46.090]  Now, if you'll all take your Bibles and turn to Deuteronomy.
[16:46.390 --> 16:48.090]  Oh, sorry, wrong speech.
[16:52.730 --> 17:01.490]  Let me say that the hacker community has always been one of my favorites.
[17:01.810 --> 17:05.130]  I am not a hacker by any stretch of the imagination.
[17:05.670 --> 17:07.370]  Um, I'm just a journalist.
[17:07.370 --> 17:08.330]  I'm a scribe.
[17:08.330 --> 17:09.990]  I chronicle what happens.
[17:11.010 --> 17:28.570]  Back in the early, I guess the mid-80s, when I first got on the net, before it was even called the net, when you, some of the old timers here will remember that you had to type in all of the, uh, machines that you wanted to route your message to for email.
[17:28.570 --> 17:30.950]  It was kind of like a digital pony express.
[17:30.950 --> 17:41.010]  I was on, at that time, using the net or using that electronic means to report and to report on a lot of the things that were happening.
[17:41.970 --> 17:52.250]  Even back then, in the early 80s, we saw the start of the incredible misinformation that the mainstream media was spinning out about the hacker community.
[17:52.890 --> 18:05.850]  And I always took a separate bent in contacting the folks that were involved in that activity and not judging them, but saying, look, I want to tell your story from your point of view.
[18:05.850 --> 18:14.430]  I didn't go on and pretend to be somebody else, like, uh, that Newsweek reporter Richard Stanza or whatever, and try and deceive anybody.
[18:14.430 --> 18:15.510]  I was always up front.
[18:15.530 --> 18:17.450]  And I think I got respect for that.
[18:18.130 --> 18:28.470]  And I think I also got respect for being able to get to the bottom of the things and tell their side of the story, tell your side of the story as fairly as I could.
[18:30.250 --> 18:33.490]  But let me start now with my own hack.
[18:34.390 --> 18:36.790]  Let me start with a media hack.
[18:37.490 --> 18:39.990]  How many journalists do we have here in the room today?
[18:41.990 --> 18:42.910]  All right, good.
[18:44.370 --> 18:45.390]  Well, turn off the cameras.
[18:45.850 --> 18:47.410]  This is all off the record.
[18:50.620 --> 18:51.580]  Did you hear me?
[18:51.960 --> 18:53.000]  Turn off the cameras.
[18:53.580 --> 18:55.360]  This speech is all off the record.
[18:58.820 --> 18:59.780]  No objections?
[19:01.140 --> 19:06.700]  Well, ladies and gentlemen, this is what's the problem with mainstream media today.
[19:06.700 --> 19:08.080]  No balls.
[19:08.500 --> 19:13.900]  I should have heard cries of outrage or people getting up out of the seats.
[19:17.360 --> 19:24.980]  Any journalist that would accept a public speech as off the record, you know, I should hear some hue and cry.
[19:25.260 --> 19:27.480]  Walk out the room, do something.
[19:28.260 --> 19:29.560]  Now, of course, I'm kidding.
[19:30.160 --> 19:31.880]  This speech is on the record.
[19:32.500 --> 19:34.360]  But here's the point that I want to make.
[19:35.860 --> 19:41.360]  You're going to have to learn how to hack the media because, frankly, you haven't done a good job of it.
[19:42.880 --> 19:47.100]  You set the terms when somebody, when a reporter calls you.
[19:47.340 --> 19:49.360]  You set the ground rules.
[19:50.060 --> 19:52.060]  You tell them this is off the record.
[19:52.440 --> 19:53.940]  This is on background.
[19:54.200 --> 19:55.860]  This is not for attribution or whatever.
[19:56.120 --> 20:03.000]  If you don't know what those terms are, you learn what they are, and you discuss them with the journalist before you say anything.
[20:04.800 --> 20:19.200]  You control the interview because once the words come out of your mouth, believe me, having been on the other end of the word processor, I know how words can be spun entirely out of control.
[20:19.880 --> 20:21.920]  So you set the ground rules.
[20:22.140 --> 20:25.340]  You learn how to hack the media.
[20:27.500 --> 20:28.820]  Okay, now we're on the record.
[20:32.490 --> 20:45.290]  When I spent my torturous year with Wired Magazine last year, working for that great dysfunctional family, I used to show up and speak at different events.
[20:46.790 --> 20:53.230]  And because I was the Washington correspondent, you know, I wore the Washington uniform with a suit and a tie.
[20:53.490 --> 21:01.730]  And people would often be amused or a little bit put back when they would see a representative of Wired Magazine wearing a tie.
[21:02.130 --> 21:09.490]  And so I would tell people, look, I'm the only one in the company that wears a tie and doesn't yet have a part of his body pierced.
[21:10.890 --> 21:14.830]  So I succumbed to peer pressure and had my nipple pierced.
[21:17.610 --> 21:29.350]  Well, as it turns out, of course, then I went to work for MSNBC, where everybody wears a tie, but nobody has a part of their body pierced.
[21:29.690 --> 21:33.350]  Unless, of course, you believe that ugly double-piercing rumor about Tom Brokaw.
[21:35.570 --> 21:37.370]  If that's not a true story, it ought to be.
[21:39.650 --> 21:43.930]  Let me tell you about one of my favorite hacking stories to kind of set the tone here.
[21:46.250 --> 21:52.310]  It's not a classic hack in the sense of getting into a machine or something like that, but it's a good illustration.
[21:54.110 --> 21:59.590]  A couple of years ago, maybe several years ago now, I forget, was when the Democrats still controlled Congress.
[22:00.710 --> 22:07.930]  Ed Markey, the chairman of the Telecommunications Subcommittee, was holding a hearing and he had Emmanuel Goldstein up there testifying.
[22:08.730 --> 22:09.750]  It was a setup.
[22:10.730 --> 22:14.570]  Marky wanted to rake Emmanuel and 2600 over the coals.
[22:14.890 --> 22:26.010]  He called him a criminal, called him an outlaw, said 2600 magazine was nothing but, you know, I think he even used the word terrorist publication or something like that.
[22:26.110 --> 22:27.990]  I mean, it was a slam job.
[22:28.630 --> 22:35.090]  And I couldn't believe Marky was doing it, because he's a pretty colluding guy, but this was Marky's intent.
[22:35.090 --> 22:43.950]  And Marky just didn't get what the whole hacking culture and what the whole process is about.
[22:44.070 --> 22:46.510]  He certainly didn't understand 2600 magazine.
[22:49.380 --> 22:55.040]  Now, there's a million Ed Markeys out there that you're going to have to watch out for.
[22:56.820 --> 23:03.880]  Now, I can't condone hacking activity, the majority of hacking activity.
[23:03.880 --> 23:04.260]  Why?
[23:04.820 --> 23:05.980]  Because it's illegal.
[23:07.560 --> 23:09.100]  Those are the laws.
[23:09.680 --> 23:13.100]  In other words, what part of jail don't you understand?
[23:13.980 --> 23:19.940]  That said, I accept hacking and the hacking culture.
[23:19.940 --> 23:21.160]  I believe in it.
[23:21.680 --> 23:33.860]  And I believe that it serves a critical, vital function in today's community as part of the delicate checks and balances of what's happening in cyberspace.
[23:35.620 --> 23:41.300]  Hacking at its core pushes the envelope, or it should push the envelope.
[23:42.540 --> 23:44.380]  It exposes weaknesses.
[23:45.000 --> 23:52.800]  It forces people, corporations, and yes, even governments to act and to make themselves stronger.
[23:53.140 --> 23:56.760]  And this is what Ed Markey and most of the people in Washington don't understand.
[23:59.160 --> 24:06.940]  Month after month, I guess it's quarter after quarter, 2600 publishes new hacks, new holes in the telephone system.
[24:06.940 --> 24:10.360]  And what do the telephone companies and AT&T do?
[24:10.900 --> 24:13.140]  By and large, they ignore it.
[24:14.740 --> 24:33.740]  Now, any place else in the financial community, if a security hole popped up or a problem popped up, Wall Street and shareholders would be all over some fucking corporation if they didn't fix these holes and the telephone companies get away with it.
[24:33.920 --> 24:34.980]  They read these things.
[24:35.060 --> 24:36.720]  I guess they think you guys aren't active.
[24:38.620 --> 24:40.540]  And they fail to patch these holes.
[24:40.680 --> 24:44.180]  And then they cry about it when somebody exploits the goddamn hole.
[24:44.360 --> 24:45.880]  This doesn't make any sense to me.
[24:47.000 --> 24:48.520]  Wall Street ignores it.
[24:48.980 --> 24:51.080]  The financial community ignores it.
[24:52.460 --> 24:56.920]  The holes that they do patch, of course, only makes the system stronger.
[24:58.800 --> 25:01.380]  This is what I'm talking about with checks and balances.
[25:01.400 --> 25:06.420]  And what Markey didn't understand, where he thought it was just some kind of outlaw publication.
[25:08.840 --> 25:22.280]  Now, personally, I'd rather have some 16-year-old with no social life sitting around trying to expose a security hole in a Pentagon computer than some rogue nation hacking into the Pentagon.
[25:30.140 --> 25:34.560]  And if you don't think that rogue nations are out there doing this type of thing, you're wrong.
[25:35.960 --> 25:43.240]  You can tell it by the sweat that breaks out on the upper lips of the NSA guys and the CIA guys when they testify.
[25:43.620 --> 25:45.100]  Now, they get a lot of things wrong.
[25:45.100 --> 25:48.720]  They have to spin it for the public, but they're fucking scared, folks.
[25:50.200 --> 25:51.440]  Because it's happening.
[25:53.120 --> 26:05.860]  And I'd rather have one of you expose that hole than have some kind of rogue nation that says, you know, for some kind of economic espionage or worse.
[26:06.480 --> 26:13.200]  That's where the national security threat is, not from some 16-year-old sitting around in his home.
[26:20.560 --> 26:21.860]  Now, that reminds me.
[26:21.920 --> 26:35.620]  I was just on Capitol Hill the other day, listening to some subcommittee on national security, and I heard a figure said that 20% of our government's computer systems have been subjected to hacking attempts.
[26:36.560 --> 26:40.140]  I wrote that down, and I said, what the fuck is this, 20%?
[26:40.920 --> 26:43.200]  You know, that's a pretty goddamn low percentage.
[26:43.620 --> 26:46.600]  Get off your ass and make that percentage go up.
[26:49.340 --> 26:53.060]  You know, in baseball, that's a 200 batting average.
[26:53.880 --> 27:06.120]  You know, and if we factor in the government's line and fudge factors, then we're talking about a less than 200 batting average, and that's a ticket to the minor leagues.
[27:06.120 --> 27:08.060]  It's 20%.
[27:09.520 --> 27:21.660]  Unfortunately, I think that figure, which is probably much lower than 20%, represents where the hacking community is today, in the minor leagues.
[27:24.320 --> 27:28.440]  Now, where are the elegant hacks of today?
[27:29.400 --> 27:30.380]  Elegant hacks.
[27:30.500 --> 27:34.020]  I'm talking about Dan Farmer and his creation of Satan.
[27:34.600 --> 27:36.020]  That's an elegant hack.
[27:37.860 --> 27:54.000]  We're talking about Hacker X, who was chronicled in a Cyber Wire dispatch that Lou Cook, who's here today, wrote about in hacking the infamous spammer Sanford Wallace's machine and putting out that information to the net.
[27:54.000 --> 27:55.800]  That's an elegant hack.
[27:58.340 --> 28:09.040]  One of the most elegant hacks, of course, was when Matt Blaze sunk the Clipper Chip, when he found an easy way to spoof a key part of the verification process.
[28:10.700 --> 28:15.420]  Now, Matt didn't crack Clipper Chip, but he sure bent the hell out of it.
[28:16.260 --> 28:20.660]  And for all intents and purposes, he signed Clipper's death warrant.
[28:20.660 --> 28:24.980]  And, of course, there is the penultimate hack of all.
[28:25.280 --> 28:33.660]  And that's using your hacking experience to eventually gain a big bucks consulting contract.
[28:41.230 --> 28:43.050]  And you know who you are.
[28:45.850 --> 28:54.110]  Now, these days, all too often, we hear of stories of so-called hacking stories.
[28:54.110 --> 29:05.270]  For example, this petty extortionist overseas who finds a security hole in Netscape and decides that the standing reward money isn't enough.
[29:05.630 --> 29:06.870]  He wants more.
[29:07.270 --> 29:13.750]  So he tries to blackmail Netscape into giving him more money for exposing this hole.
[29:14.090 --> 29:15.430]  That's not a hack.
[29:15.850 --> 29:17.090]  That's extortion.
[29:18.050 --> 29:26.030]  And then we hear about out in DEFCON a few weeks ago where people are trying to pass off counterfeit $20 bills.
[29:26.470 --> 29:27.650]  That's not a hack.
[29:27.910 --> 29:29.530]  That's a crime, folks.
[29:30.430 --> 29:31.510]  That's a crime.
[29:32.830 --> 29:40.070]  And then we have scores and scores of quote-unquote AOL hackers.
[29:46.640 --> 30:00.660]  Let me tell you, when the media thinks about hackers, one of the first things that pops into their mind are these digital juvenile delinquents that are masturbating online on AOL.
[30:11.550 --> 30:17.710]  The only AOL hacker was Nicholas Ryan who figured out, who wrote the AOL for free program.
[30:17.830 --> 30:20.810]  Everybody else since then has basically just been a copycat.
[30:22.050 --> 30:24.650]  Let me talk about copycats for a while.
[30:24.790 --> 30:44.450]  If you're following somebody else's hack, if you grab 2600 Magazine and you're typing in what's happening there, all you're doing is basically following nothing more than a Martha Mitchell cookbook and baking a Bundt cake.
[30:47.030 --> 30:54.250]  2600 Magazine... 2600
[31:03.200 --> 31:07.040]  Magazine wasn't meant as an instruction manual.
[31:08.220 --> 31:15.980]  2600 Magazine is like a guide to where people have gone before to use that and to build on it.
[31:19.010 --> 31:19.650]  2700 Magazine.
[31:19.650 --> 31:25.150]  You have to invent and develop and build things.
[31:26.890 --> 31:29.870]  And God damn it, you have to break things.
[31:30.810 --> 31:33.470]  Not just following somebody else's footsteps.
[31:35.210 --> 31:39.670]  Now, going into the next millennium, this gets even more and more crucial.
[31:40.450 --> 31:56.230]  If you continue to push the envelope and you do this with the business world, and with the government, I guarantee they will probably continue to despise you, but they won't be able to ignore you.
[31:57.290 --> 32:02.390]  If they try, I'm sure that you'll hurt them.
[32:03.950 --> 32:05.290]  Don't be gentle.
[32:05.810 --> 32:08.230]  Do not go quietly into the night.
[32:08.470 --> 32:11.170]  And for Christ's sake, be smart.
[32:13.990 --> 32:21.150]  If you're going to follow, if you're going to do something, don't leave your digital litter strewn all over cyberspace.
[32:22.150 --> 32:24.690]  It's a quick ticket to jail.
[32:25.230 --> 32:28.810]  And again, what part of jail don't you understand?
[32:29.410 --> 32:31.610]  You'll find people here that have been there.
[32:31.790 --> 32:33.270]  It's not a pleasant place.
[32:34.790 --> 32:38.570]  Now, the feds are getting smarter.
[32:39.150 --> 32:41.950]  Don't you get stupider.
[32:42.910 --> 32:45.330]  Keep them racing to catch up.
[32:46.110 --> 32:48.070]  It will make you stronger.
[32:48.970 --> 32:50.950]  It will make the net stronger.
[32:51.990 --> 32:56.710]  And when the net is stronger, in the end, we all win.
[32:57.430 --> 32:58.210]  Thank you.
[33:12.870 --> 33:17.370]  Now, we'll open the floor to questions, if you have any.
[33:17.450 --> 33:19.530]  And I'll see if I can give you some answers.
[33:19.770 --> 33:22.470]  If not, we'll go on to the next thing.
[33:23.330 --> 33:23.930]  Any questions?
[33:25.730 --> 33:26.910]  I can't believe it.
[33:27.950 --> 33:28.710]  All right, right here.
[34:19.540 --> 34:20.960]  Okay, I got you.
[34:22.160 --> 34:22.560]  The...
[34:22.560 --> 34:23.260]  Yeah, I will.
[34:27.600 --> 34:31.380]  Also, we're going to have people come up here, and they can talk to you from this microphone.
[34:32.000 --> 34:32.400]  Okay.
[34:32.580 --> 34:50.320]  She asked basically what I thought about how the net is becoming more commercialized, and with big-moneyed interest, sucking up more and more of the net, making information less available to other people, making it more difficult for people to get information as the net becomes more and more commercialized.
[34:50.360 --> 34:51.360]  And what do I think about that?
[34:51.360 --> 35:03.360]  Well, generally, I am not opposed to the commercialization of the internet, because it is making it generally more available to a wider number of people.
[35:03.560 --> 35:05.900]  More and more corporations are coming online.
[35:06.140 --> 35:07.240]  And what does that do?
[35:07.800 --> 35:13.940]  Well, for one thing, it gives hackers more of an opportunity to explore their avocation, right?
[35:13.940 --> 35:29.020]  But I think the other thing that is a problem is that as the big-moneyed interests get involved, they want to protect their interests, and so they start to try and gain control.
[35:29.020 --> 35:38.700]  One of the things that we see is a great example of this is the whole flap that is going on now about domain names, and who is going to become the registrars, and so on and so forth.
[35:38.900 --> 35:55.940]  We have this proposal on the table right now that will essentially turn the domain name registries into a UN-type system controlled out of Geneva by the International Telecommunication Union that operates under charter of Swiss law, for Christ's sake.
[35:56.360 --> 36:01.360]  If anybody has ever had any dealings with the UN, you know how fucked up that place is.
[36:01.920 --> 36:07.980]  And now they want to put the net and domain name registries under control of a UN-style tribunal?
[36:08.740 --> 36:09.800]  It's bad news.
[36:11.640 --> 36:12.160]  Next.
[36:18.500 --> 36:19.020]  Whoa.
[36:20.700 --> 36:21.480]  Not that loud.
[36:21.740 --> 36:23.400]  Yeah, I got a question.
[36:23.500 --> 36:28.000]  What made you decide to take the hacker side of the story instead of the easy slam and trash of the hacker?
[36:30.520 --> 36:31.420]  Because I could.
[36:33.120 --> 36:43.940]  I did it because, for one thing, I knew that the people that were doing the hacking in those days, it was the majority was kids.
[36:44.700 --> 36:54.360]  I knew that these kids were not, you know, all miscreants and juvenile delinquents, as the media was portraying them to be.
[36:54.460 --> 36:55.740]  I think they were inquisitive.
[36:55.740 --> 37:02.940]  They were kids that maybe felt ostracized by their peers and so forth.
[37:03.060 --> 37:09.000]  They got into computers, and just the sense that they got into computers, and because they were interested in them, they were being painted as criminals.
[37:09.200 --> 37:11.540]  And I knew there was a different story to tell.
[37:12.260 --> 37:25.640]  Besides that, I had talked to a few of them, and I started hearing things like, well, you know, I see my parents making cassette tape recordings off of albums and, you know, passing them around.
[37:25.840 --> 37:28.200]  And, you know, isn't that a copyright violation?
[37:28.220 --> 37:32.200]  And I see my parents cheating on their taxes and so on and so forth.
[37:32.220 --> 37:36.140]  And what they were doing wasn't hurting anybody.
[37:36.560 --> 37:39.000]  They weren't stealing anything for Christ's sake.
[37:39.000 --> 37:41.080]  And yet they were being portrayed as criminals.
[37:41.080 --> 37:43.700]  And I thought, you know, nobody's telling their story.
[37:43.920 --> 37:56.860]  And as a journalist, when I see a big hole that nobody else is covering, well, you know, being the operatistic son of a bitch that I am, you know, I moved right in and I was telling a story that nobody else was telling.
[37:58.480 --> 37:59.320]  Next question.
[38:00.180 --> 38:06.500]  Have you ever had any stories slammed by MSNBC that they just did not want done?
[38:07.760 --> 38:08.220]  No.
[38:08.840 --> 38:12.440]  One of the things... I was very leery of going to work for MSNBC.
[38:14.600 --> 38:24.040]  And I got assurances from everybody that I worked with there, or that I was going to be working with, that Microsoft wasn't going to have its fingerprints on any of the news.
[38:25.420 --> 38:33.140]  I believed the people that I was talking to, because they were all news professionals, but I went into it being very skeptical.
[38:33.140 --> 38:47.120]  And I've been pleasantly surprised that Microsoft is really nowhere to be found on the news side, except for the fact that we all bitch and moan because of the brain-dead software we have to use that Microsoft supplies.
[38:50.940 --> 38:52.360]  But God's honest truth.
[38:53.860 --> 39:10.280]  I don't know if any of you know this, but several years ago, I ditched all of my Wintel stuff and sold my PCs off and got rid of everything and got Macs and declared my home a Microsoft free zone.
[39:11.520 --> 39:15.420]  And now, of course, I have to use the Microsoft stuff because I work with their software.
[39:15.780 --> 39:35.680]  But the thing that I found out since working for MSNBC is that Microsoft is so huge, and there are so many different little fiefdoms and projects that nobody's concerned about keeping their project alive and keeping their budget alive that nobody really has time to put their fingers on the news.
[39:36.180 --> 39:47.440]  One of the things that's in my contract is that the first time I get a whiff that MSNBC has soft-pedaled a Microsoft story anywhere, I walk.
[39:48.120 --> 39:49.180]  It's in my contract.
[39:49.440 --> 39:50.140]  And they know that up front.
[39:54.790 --> 40:02.270]  I hate to be a little critical of the media, but I hear about a lot of hacking stories about what hackers do.
[40:02.470 --> 40:06.470]  What about what the government does as in reverse cracking, like, let's say, Tempest?
[40:07.250 --> 40:11.930]  What does the media do to expose stuff like that government hacks and cracks, what they've come up with?
[40:11.970 --> 40:13.250]  Because I know they don't share it with us.
[40:13.930 --> 40:19.490]  Well, I think we have a media panel later on today, and that's one of the questions you should ask them because it's a fair question.
[40:21.010 --> 40:29.630]  Right now, just last night, somebody turned me on to a story that I think will be very surprising.
[40:29.890 --> 40:31.230]  It involves the NSA.
[40:32.870 --> 40:35.170]  And it's one of these reverse kind of cracking stories.
[40:35.250 --> 40:37.850]  I don't want to tell anybody about it because there's a bunch of journalists here.
[40:38.070 --> 40:40.070]  But I'll be breaking that story pretty soon.
[40:40.750 --> 40:55.050]  Years ago, I was the first one to break stories about how the Pentagon had signed on hackers, and they were creating viruses to put in computers that were shipped out to Bulgaria.
[40:56.090 --> 40:57.410]  To, you know?
[40:58.070 --> 41:00.050]  And they were doing this all on the sly, of course.
[41:00.190 --> 41:04.370]  So, you know, I've covered those types of stories, but the media in general doesn't.
[41:04.930 --> 41:06.770]  And that's a good question to ask them.
[41:06.850 --> 41:08.230]  I mean, I can't speak for all of media.
[41:08.230 --> 41:12.550]  So, ask the media panel and see what kind of other answers you get.
[41:16.030 --> 41:16.590]  Hi.
[41:16.790 --> 41:26.430]  As a journalist yourself, do you see push technology as going backwards instead of forwards in the development of better information transmission and customization?
[41:28.230 --> 41:30.330]  I'm not a big fan of push technology.
[41:30.530 --> 41:41.850]  I think that push technology, as a matter of fact, starts to make the net become more and more like a broadcast medium in that you no longer have to go and search for things.
[41:42.210 --> 41:43.910]  They start to come at you.
[41:44.210 --> 41:51.090]  And when the net starts to become more and more like a broadcast medium, what happens?
[41:52.090 --> 42:02.850]  Congress is going to come in, and they're going to say, ah, back in 1997, it wasn't a broadcast medium, and we knew that, so we struck down the Communications Decency Act.
[42:04.550 --> 42:07.290]  Now, it does look like a broadcast medium.
[42:07.450 --> 42:12.150]  It smells like a broadcast medium, and it functions like a broadcast medium.
[42:12.850 --> 42:14.330]  Now we can regulate it.
[42:14.470 --> 42:20.810]  I think we have to be very careful about how the net evolves, or we're going to see this issue revisited.
[42:21.050 --> 42:29.450]  And as the net looks more and more like a broadcast, I don't see a whole lot of ways that we can defend that, saying that the net is different than broadcast.
[42:30.150 --> 42:34.090]  So I think that's a... Now, push technology starts us down that road.
[42:34.830 --> 42:48.130]  I mean, it's not going to be the critical factor, but as streaming video and stuff becomes more and more available, I think this is still maybe five years out, but we have to be very careful on how the net develops, or it's going to look a lot like TV and radio,
[42:48.230 --> 42:51.050]  and when that happens, it gets regulated like TV and radio.
[42:54.580 --> 42:56.040]  First off, I want to say that was a good speech.
[42:56.720 --> 43:01.580]  Do you have the tape of the marquee hearing with Emmanuel Goldstein testifying, and if you do, could you produce it?
[43:02.080 --> 43:03.540]  I don't have the tape of it.
[43:04.200 --> 43:09.600]  I'm sure somebody can get a transcript of it, but that was several years ago.
[43:09.700 --> 43:13.160]  I don't even know if it was a time when there weren't C-SPAN cameras around or anything like that.
[43:13.740 --> 43:14.760]  You might ask Emmanuel.
[43:14.900 --> 43:16.320]  I think he has a transcript of it.
[43:20.280 --> 43:23.020]  Hey, what would you consider a rogue country?
[43:23.360 --> 43:29.800]  I mean, in other words, in your personal opinion, what's the difference between a hacker in the U.S. hacking into a government agency computer, or one in any other country hacking into it?
[43:36.520 --> 43:37.760]  What's the difference?
[43:38.080 --> 43:43.500]  In your personal opinion, how can you call such countries as some countries rogue countries?
[43:44.380 --> 43:45.020]  Thanks.
[43:45.020 --> 43:47.060]  Oh, how can I call some countries rogue countries?
[43:47.420 --> 44:00.560]  Well, for one thing, the rogue activity that I know of is when the hacker is a government agent.
[44:00.780 --> 44:07.100]  He's an operative of a rogue nation that is attacking a U.S. installation or a U.S.
[44:08.560 --> 44:17.460]  government computer for the sole purpose of espionage or for some other kind of national security violation.
[44:18.120 --> 44:22.800]  I mean, they're in the employ of another government hacking into somebody else's government.
[44:22.860 --> 44:31.160]  Now, if our government is hacking into, you know, Iraq or hacking into France or whatever, then America becomes the rogue nation.
[44:31.260 --> 44:32.500]  It's the same type of deal.
[44:32.500 --> 44:39.760]  If it's government-sponsored attacks against somebody else, it's the same deal, whether it's in America or whatever.
[44:39.840 --> 44:49.080]  The difference is, you know, a 16-year-old sitting at home and somebody overseas that is employed and getting paid by some foreign country.
[44:49.900 --> 44:50.460]  Government.
[44:50.460 --> 44:50.540]  Government.
[44:55.350 --> 44:59.970]  What do you think of the recent Microsoft and Macintosh alliance?
[45:03.210 --> 45:06.270]  That's in my holy war speech for another time.
[45:06.650 --> 45:07.050]  Okay.
[45:07.370 --> 45:07.610]  No.
[45:07.830 --> 45:08.550]  That's fair.
[45:09.130 --> 45:14.550]  I mean, you know, for everybody that owned Apple stock, it was great.
[45:14.550 --> 45:15.370]  You know?
[45:15.990 --> 45:18.050]  Apple went up about six bucks a share.
[45:18.230 --> 45:31.010]  My parents, who I told to buy, you know, a thousand or more shares of Apple when it dipped to $13 a share, you know, my dad is extremely happy now that he followed my advice.
[45:31.690 --> 45:37.770]  There's a lot of employees at Apple whose morale was way down and they saw their stock options damn near double.
[45:38.550 --> 45:39.630]  They're very happy.
[45:39.630 --> 45:52.730]  I think Microsoft makes sure that it has a healthy revenue stream secured for a pittance, for $150 million.
[45:53.370 --> 45:58.410]  They saw their own share in Apple raised by about $50 million.
[45:59.150 --> 46:06.790]  So, you know, for $150 million, which is peanuts to Microsoft, I think it's a good deal all the way around.
[46:06.790 --> 46:12.710]  We have to see the key thing here, of course, folks, is not that Microsoft bought into Apple and so forth.
[46:12.810 --> 46:16.610]  It's the devil's in those details of the licensing and patent agreements.
[46:16.770 --> 46:18.750]  And we'll have to see how that shakes out.
[46:18.830 --> 46:26.890]  Because Microsoft, frankly, doesn't have a real good track record of going in and looking at other people's books and technology and playing fair and square.
[46:27.010 --> 46:28.450]  You can just ask Intuit about that.
[46:29.770 --> 46:31.530]  I was... sorry.
[46:31.750 --> 46:40.650]  I was wondering if you had a tape of the... when you called the Pentagon City Mall, the security officers and...
[46:40.650 --> 46:42.150]  Yes, I do have a tape of that.
[46:42.370 --> 46:50.630]  I refer to it as the Johnson tape because the security director's name... his last name was Johnson.
[46:53.610 --> 46:58.430]  And... I let... it was very funny because... was there another part to your question there?
[46:58.550 --> 47:02.510]  I was going to ask if it was possible for it to be put up on the web somewhere?
[47:03.310 --> 47:10.130]  Yeah, if somebody wants to... to get in touch with me later, we can talk about transferring that audio over and... and so forth.
[47:11.010 --> 47:13.890]  It was very funny about that... that instance.
[47:14.550 --> 47:22.370]  Because I did call very early in the morning and got this guy on the tape and I said, what are you doing harassing these kids at a Pentagon City Mall?
[47:22.430 --> 47:23.270]  They weren't doing anything.
[47:23.670 --> 47:26.590]  And Johnson goes, well, you know, it was... it wasn't us.
[47:26.890 --> 47:27.730]  It wasn't my guys.
[47:28.010 --> 47:30.510]  It was the Secret Service and the FBI.
[47:30.710 --> 47:31.370]  He goes, they were all here.
[47:32.810 --> 47:34.750]  This, of course, was after I asked him about it.
[47:34.790 --> 47:36.250]  He goes, I can't talk to you on the phone.
[47:37.110 --> 47:39.150]  And I said, well, look, I'm just trying to get some information.
[47:39.290 --> 47:40.570]  No, man, I can't talk to you on the phone.
[47:41.410 --> 47:43.610]  I said, well, if I come down there, will you talk to me?
[47:43.650 --> 47:44.550]  No, I won't talk to you.
[47:45.710 --> 47:49.650]  And so I, you know, I'm just going on and on and you can hear the guy slowly cracking.
[47:49.650 --> 47:51.870]  And finally he just said, yeah, it was the Secret Service, the FBI.
[47:52.010 --> 47:52.490]  They were all here.
[47:53.430 --> 48:00.350]  So I published my story and then he was denying that he ever said this to me.
[48:00.350 --> 48:04.650]  Of course, I forgot to tell him that I was taping the conversation.
[48:06.630 --> 48:07.330]  Sue me.
[48:13.860 --> 48:20.200]  Of course, in the District of Columbia, only one person has to know that the tape recording is being played and... or is being done.
[48:20.200 --> 48:21.140]  So I knew.
[48:24.780 --> 48:34.520]  So Johnson was denying this and then people were... journalists were then writing stories, countering my story, saying, well, Johnson denies this, so on and so forth.
[48:34.640 --> 48:42.640]  So for the next whole day, I was just telling... I got really pissed off and I said, listen, just give me a phone call and I'll play the fucking tape for you.
[48:42.640 --> 48:47.240]  So tape, I had several reporters call me and I was playing this tape over and over again.
[48:47.600 --> 48:52.700]  And so then, of course, the next day's stories were, we contacted Brock Meeks and he played the tape.
[48:52.700 --> 48:56.500]  And yes, indeed, the Secret Service and so on and so forth were there.
[48:56.560 --> 49:02.820]  And of course, they were, but they used the Pentagon City, you know, Rent-A-Cop guys as their foils.
[49:02.820 --> 49:05.340]  And the whole thing was just a big, bizarre mess.
[49:05.480 --> 49:06.560]  But yeah, I do still have the tape.
[49:06.820 --> 49:11.820]  I don't think Johnson is... I know Johnson's not around at Pentagon City anymore, so...
[49:14.080 --> 49:17.360]  I was wondering, where do you think hacking is going?
[49:17.640 --> 49:19.940]  What are the next big hacks and cracks going to be?
[49:20.000 --> 49:21.140]  Any predictions for us?
[49:22.540 --> 49:24.660]  You know, I don't have any predictions.
[49:24.860 --> 49:26.920]  I think hacking is in a downward slide.
[49:27.060 --> 49:28.740]  Like I said, I think it's in the minor leagues.
[49:29.480 --> 49:32.380]  I don't see too many elegant hacks going on these days.
[49:33.640 --> 49:36.460]  I see, you know, I see a lot of copycatch shit.
[49:36.580 --> 49:40.480]  We see the, you know, the quote-unquote AOL hacking stuff.
[49:41.200 --> 49:43.300]  And I see far too many elegant hacks.
[49:43.500 --> 49:45.660]  I think you guys have to pump up the volume.
[49:46.280 --> 49:47.580]  Ratchet it up a notch.
[49:47.720 --> 49:48.380]  Get busy.
[49:49.780 --> 49:51.660]  Like I said, push the envelope.
[49:51.980 --> 49:53.080]  Start to break things.
[49:53.260 --> 49:54.980]  Just don't follow in other people's footsteps.
[49:55.220 --> 49:57.300]  What are the next big hacks going to be?
[49:58.820 --> 49:59.560]  I don't know.
[49:59.940 --> 50:00.740]  That's your job.
[50:00.860 --> 50:02.080]  My job is to report on them.
[50:03.980 --> 50:05.520]  So I have no predictions.
[50:07.960 --> 50:08.800]  Any other questions?
[50:11.520 --> 50:11.940]  All right.
[50:12.080 --> 50:12.660]  Thank you very much.
[50:12.780 --> 50:13.600]  It's been a pleasure to be here.
[50:13.840 --> 50:14.620]  Thank you very much.