[00:00.000 --> 00:03.980]  Potter Meets Reality by Mark Tobias.
[00:05.440 --> 00:10.080]  He's going to be sitting and he's going to be taking some comments.
[00:10.260 --> 00:14.240]  So if you have comments, please come up to the microphone so it can be saved for posterity.
[00:14.440 --> 00:14.820]  Mark.
[00:15.040 --> 00:15.460]  Thank you.
[00:15.960 --> 00:17.000]  Is this mic live?
[00:17.180 --> 00:17.380]  Okay.
[00:18.380 --> 00:19.620]  Thank you all for coming.
[00:19.980 --> 00:22.600]  This is a pretty open session.
[00:23.560 --> 00:25.220]  We're soliciting ideas.
[00:25.720 --> 00:29.260]  How many of you guys were at the lockpicking panel earlier today?
[00:30.000 --> 00:30.960]  Okay, so lots here.
[00:31.120 --> 00:32.680]  Well, let me give you the brief background.
[00:33.880 --> 00:36.740]  Basically, I'd like you guys to interact on this panel.
[00:36.960 --> 00:39.120]  I know it's already sort of late in the evening.
[00:39.740 --> 00:41.080]  Maybe not for some of you.
[00:42.980 --> 00:45.200]  You all look amazingly awake.
[00:47.700 --> 00:52.100]  I've worked in government as well as the private sector.
[00:52.160 --> 00:52.780]  I'm a lawyer.
[00:53.020 --> 00:57.040]  I work in Sioux Falls, South Dakota, but I travel all over the world doing what I do.
[00:58.600 --> 01:10.140]  Part of my practice involves fraud investigations, and part of it involves really high-tech stuff and breaking high-security locks and consulting with some clients, both in the private and the public sector.
[01:10.620 --> 01:17.480]  And I'm lucky enough to get to travel to a lot of really out-of-the-way places in the world and get to interact with a lot of people.
[01:18.320 --> 01:41.320]  It's occurred to me in my travels and my meetings with clients and government folks that I interact with that we have a real serious resource problem in America, especially dealing with our terrorism problem, but also just in business and the billions and billions of dollars we have in fraudulent loss in this country,
[01:41.580 --> 01:44.990]  to say nothing of the common market or the European community.
[01:46.400 --> 02:04.540]  And it occurred to me a while back, and I talked to some of my friends that I've worked with forever that are very high level in the government, that America really ought to have a strategic policy of developing security specialists from when they're very young,
[02:04.600 --> 02:19.340]  so they develop the tools and thought processes to go forth out of college back into the community, be it government or private sector, and contribute to help protect this country and other countries.
[02:20.000 --> 02:42.680]  Now, if... and as I said, my background goes back... I'm a lawyer, I also have a law enforcement undergraduate background, have written five police textbooks over the years, and I used to be, in my former life, chief of the organized crime unit in South Dakota for the Office of Attorney General.
[02:42.680 --> 02:49.360]  And so, I've gotten to work a lot of really neat cases, both in the public and the private sector.
[02:49.700 --> 03:01.280]  And so, the premise is that we ought to have a national strategic policy of developing a cadre of specialists.
[03:02.200 --> 03:09.600]  And it's... I started picking locks when I was 15, much to the chagrin of my parents.
[03:10.680 --> 03:23.220]  My dad's an engineer, my mom's a retired teacher, and so I grew up in a professional environment, but they still were pretty upset that I was picking my way into everything and phone phreaking across the world.
[03:23.220 --> 03:30.420]  And so, what I'd like to do is challenge you guys to think...
[03:30.420 --> 03:42.760]  I've written a brief description of what I would perceive would be the goals and what a national security college ought to do.
[03:43.500 --> 03:51.900]  The fact is, we really are low on resources in this country, as other countries are in this particular area.
[03:52.020 --> 03:57.900]  And I've heard two other panels while I've been here discussing this similar...
[03:58.380 --> 04:07.060]  this issue in similar terms, basically with the same idea in mind, although nobody's really elicited exactly.
[04:07.620 --> 04:32.780]  And the reason I came up with the title, Harry Potter Meets Reality, because if the potential for a national security college were to come to fruition, we're really talking about an academy that would train everybody, not in magic, but what appears to be magic to a lot of the public as they see on television.
[04:33.280 --> 04:40.620]  We're talking about the ability to think your way through a problem, the ability to think alternatively.
[04:40.860 --> 04:59.980]  And one of the things that I've really figured out over the years, notwithstanding what the public perception is of a lot of hackers, that is that they're criminals, actually, you all have a lot to offer.
[05:00.300 --> 05:03.240]  And if you're willing to offer it.
[05:03.840 --> 05:07.460]  The bottom line is, there's a...
[05:07.460 --> 05:10.560]  to me, here's what the hacker profile is.
[05:10.700 --> 05:18.760]  You guys are bright, you're clever, you're persistent, you're focused, and you think out of the box.
[05:18.760 --> 05:27.640]  And in my world, I solve physical security problems involving locks.
[05:28.040 --> 05:31.520]  And the problems are very subtle.
[05:31.840 --> 05:33.980]  They're not supposed to be there.
[05:34.120 --> 05:35.780]  They're not supposed to be solved.
[05:36.000 --> 05:37.980]  Because they're not supposed to exist.
[05:39.060 --> 06:01.280]  The manufacturers spend millions and millions of dollars on research and development, or are supposed to, to produce locks that guys like me, guys like Barry Wells, guys like John Fall, Mark Bates, quite a cadre of us, are not supposed to be able to get into.
[06:01.900 --> 06:05.720]  Because there's design defects, there's security problems.
[06:05.900 --> 06:12.580]  Whether it's a lock, a computer, a computer network, a system, an access control system.
[06:12.880 --> 06:14.640]  There's a million variations.
[06:15.900 --> 06:29.640]  DVDs, cars, everything in America today, really everything in the world is, as you know, as things become more standardized, there's the potential to break systems, regardless of what they are.
[06:29.860 --> 06:31.900]  That's just the nature of how things work.
[06:32.300 --> 06:40.000]  And this, at the end of the day, is costing everybody, and you and me, a great deal of money and physical security.
[06:40.360 --> 06:55.020]  And so, the premise is, if we can channel the energy, first of all, I've talked to folks that have indicated that there really is a need for such an academy.
[06:55.600 --> 06:58.440]  Now, there's lots and lots of questions.
[06:58.440 --> 07:01.980]  And let me just read what I wrote up.
[07:03.140 --> 07:05.700]  And basically, it's an outline.
[07:06.120 --> 07:10.720]  And then, this will give you an idea where we could go.
[07:16.950 --> 07:18.550]  It's basically...
[07:19.670 --> 07:22.850]  The concept of the academy is simple.
[07:22.850 --> 07:40.470]  First, select incredibly bright kids, age 12 to 15, as a base age, from diverse backgrounds with extremely high potential in math, science, physics, chemistry, language, logic, and conceptualization skills.
[07:41.050 --> 07:58.330]  Next, put them together in the most high-tech training facility that has ever been created for such a purpose in order that they might be immersed in a challenging curriculum that would develop the necessary skills for problem solving in non-traditional means.
[07:58.870 --> 08:10.870]  Then, employ the best instructors to provide the necessary multidisciplinary training in the setting of a physical facility that supports the goals of the project.
[08:11.410 --> 08:26.270]  Finally, develop a curriculum that would provide the needed tools so that the students could flourish in such an environment and feed upon each other's creativity and curiosity.
[08:26.710 --> 08:37.150]  And you have the potential to create a core of cyber warriors to meet the technical challenges of the 21st century that confront our society.
[08:38.030 --> 08:52.710]  You guys would develop more expertise in their chosen areas and are actually put to work assessing security issues, vulnerabilities, and working investigations to foil plots involving technology.
[08:53.310 --> 09:05.150]  Unlike Harry Potter, this academy would deal in reality and the high-tech magic that exists today in certain sectors.
[09:07.170 --> 09:15.330]  kids employed and trained and then as adults and participating in government to solve problems.
[09:17.410 --> 09:20.670]  That is basically the premise.
[09:21.150 --> 09:27.030]  Now, there's a lot of questions and I want to throw this open pretty quick to comments.
[09:27.030 --> 09:36.090]  And if you guys think there's potential and are interested, I'd really like you to email me your ideas.
[09:36.190 --> 09:40.870]  Because believe me, they will be correlated and passed on.
[09:42.630 --> 09:52.110]  And my email address, and I've got cards up here if you want to take them, but it's MWtobias at security.org.
[09:53.690 --> 09:56.410]  And any ideas would be welcome.
[09:56.730 --> 09:59.450]  So, the first question is...
[09:59.450 --> 10:02.970]  And there's a microphone, I think, right up in front there.
[10:03.310 --> 10:07.570]  The first question is, should this be a public...
[10:07.570 --> 10:10.310]  The first question is, do you think it's a good idea?
[10:11.770 --> 10:13.710]  I guess that's where we start.
[10:13.710 --> 10:15.210]  What's the consensus?
[10:15.430 --> 10:17.410]  Is it a good idea, bad idea, dumb idea?
[10:18.270 --> 10:22.950]  The idea of this forum was to be really open and just solicit information.
[10:25.810 --> 10:27.630]  So, is there a consensus?
[10:27.910 --> 10:28.750]  Does everybody...
[10:28.750 --> 10:31.350]  Does it intrigue you guys to think about this kind of thing?
[10:32.710 --> 10:33.650]  Yes and no.
[10:33.730 --> 10:34.650]  Yes and no.
[10:34.770 --> 10:35.430]  What's the no?
[10:36.090 --> 10:37.570]  It depends on...
[10:37.570 --> 10:40.390]  It depends on...
[10:42.850 --> 10:44.890]  I'd say it depends on its implementation.
[10:44.970 --> 10:48.170]  You touched on just before you said the general, is it a good idea?
[10:48.290 --> 10:50.110]  You were about to say public or private.
[10:50.950 --> 10:54.830]  That is, I think, what would trouble a lot of us here.
[10:55.670 --> 11:14.070]  Many people, when we hear about a specialized institution or specialized training, conceive of not an open and public army of people willing to help their whole community, but a specialized group under a specialized command taking orders from who knows.
[11:14.310 --> 11:18.290]  There are many people here who would love to make their country safer.
[11:18.870 --> 11:20.610]  But I don't think there's a lot of...
[11:20.610 --> 11:21.670]  Well, I can't speak...
[11:21.670 --> 11:24.610]  There's plenty of people here who wouldn't want to do it at the behest of government.
[11:25.050 --> 11:28.930]  There's plenty of people here who would love to overthrow their government, let alone obey it.
[11:28.930 --> 11:30.030]  I've figured that out.
[11:31.450 --> 11:31.850]  So...
[11:32.550 --> 11:34.110]  But in a peaceful manner.
[11:34.430 --> 11:35.190]  Yes, of course.
[11:35.950 --> 11:43.070]  So, I would say, I like what you have to say, as long as it's open to anyone who wants to enroll, and would be very publicly carried out.
[11:43.490 --> 11:46.730]  Okay, but what kind of selection criteria do you have?
[11:47.450 --> 11:48.870]  First of all, you have to have funding.
[11:49.090 --> 11:50.850]  Now, the private sector may fund it.
[11:51.450 --> 11:54.370]  What if the government provided grants, but it was a private school?
[11:55.530 --> 11:57.390]  I wouldn't be able to support it at that time.
[11:57.390 --> 12:00.570]  I'd say, raise your hand and stand up, answer the call.
[12:00.690 --> 12:03.010]  And if you wash out because you're not good enough, then you wash out.
[12:03.210 --> 12:04.710]  Okay, but who determines...
[12:04.710 --> 12:05.810]  Who determines...
[12:05.810 --> 12:07.430]  Let's talk about selection criteria.
[12:07.870 --> 12:09.530]  Who determines selection criteria?
[12:10.430 --> 12:11.310]  People here, man.
[12:11.990 --> 12:13.510]  Or I would say public review.
[12:13.710 --> 12:17.610]  Part of the process would be a public consensus of certain skill levels.
[12:17.770 --> 12:19.490]  What you can attain, what you can't do.
[12:19.490 --> 12:28.550]  And everything, every regulation and every grade of progress would be a publicly reviewed and publicly accepted criteria.
[12:28.890 --> 12:31.370]  Okay, and when you say publicly, what's your idea?
[12:31.710 --> 12:32.810]  What does that mean?
[12:32.950 --> 12:41.090]  The community as a whole, all participants would be accessible to every level of decision-making and every level of grading and assessment.
[12:41.090 --> 12:45.970]  How the progress of the institution and of the individuals being achieved should be...
[12:45.970 --> 12:47.870]  Every single person should have input.
[12:48.270 --> 12:50.310]  And say, well, I think, you know, show of hands.
[12:50.450 --> 12:51.590]  Do we think we're doing this well?
[12:51.730 --> 12:52.230]  Yes or no?
[12:52.530 --> 12:55.810]  Or as much as it could be emotionally damaging, show of hands.
[12:55.910 --> 12:57.450]  Is John Smith up to the task?
[12:57.730 --> 12:58.330]  No, I'm not.
[12:58.410 --> 12:58.790]  I'm sorry.
[12:59.010 --> 12:59.450]  Go away.
[12:59.730 --> 13:00.970]  So is this like survivor?
[13:01.890 --> 13:03.370]  I wouldn't make that comparison.
[13:06.050 --> 13:08.350]  How about some of your other folks?
[13:09.550 --> 13:10.130]  Okay.
[13:10.430 --> 13:16.230]  A little bedaddle to get into back and forth, but it's an intriguing prospect.
[13:16.530 --> 13:18.570]  And the big thing is implementation.
[13:19.330 --> 13:25.550]  Selection, for example, mentioned kids who are very good in science and math.
[13:25.750 --> 13:39.410]  But some of the people who can think outside of box might not be doing well academically because it can be the fact they think outside of the box is not compatible with the school they're in.
[13:40.090 --> 13:46.530]  They might be viewed as too weird or, oh, attention deficit disordered or whatever.
[13:46.750 --> 13:49.450]  So care is needed for the selection.
[13:50.290 --> 13:52.230]  You know, do you use SAT scores?
[13:52.990 --> 13:58.050]  But what if that type of testing measures compliance and thinking within the box?
[13:58.850 --> 14:06.470]  So there's going to be a lot of challenges, but it's an intriguing idea and I hope to email you after I think more about it.
[14:06.790 --> 14:07.410]  Thank you.
[14:07.530 --> 14:07.870]  Thank you.
[14:11.740 --> 14:13.260]  Yeah, continuing on that line.
[14:13.420 --> 14:26.060]  I mean, just my thoughts is just any time in general when you have an academy, you know, you have a common curriculum, then don't you also bring in the problems of like, well, everybody has to follow along with the curriculum and therefore you get into problems like groupthink and whatnot.
[14:26.520 --> 14:28.280]  Well, okay, but here's the problem.
[14:28.500 --> 14:43.620]  If you're going to have an academy that teaches both a general liberal arts curriculum to get you, let's say you started at age 15, you got to get you through what's considered high school and then it would be a college curriculum plus all the special courses.
[14:43.860 --> 14:47.580]  So you have to have standards and some rules just like any college.
[14:47.940 --> 14:52.140]  Otherwise, your degree doesn't mean anything when you go back out into the real world.
[14:52.560 --> 14:53.960]  So how do you deal with that?
[14:53.960 --> 14:56.880]  Well, I'd argue that a lot of people here aren't really big on rules.
[14:57.280 --> 14:58.740]  Yeah, no, no, I understand that.
[14:59.000 --> 15:03.720]  But unfortunately, the real world is big on rules.
[15:04.080 --> 15:05.360]  I mean, that's how it runs.
[15:05.580 --> 15:07.540]  So, you know, you have to deal in that world.
[15:07.980 --> 15:09.660]  I mean, at the end of the day, you have to earn a living.
[15:11.420 --> 15:11.900]  Don't you?
[15:12.460 --> 15:13.140]  Yeah, I guess.
[15:14.220 --> 15:15.740]  I'm pretty happy in my parents' basement.
[15:16.200 --> 15:16.760]  Yeah, no, no.
[15:16.980 --> 15:17.420]  No, no.
[15:17.500 --> 15:20.120]  But see, at some point, they're going to throw you out of the house.
[15:20.840 --> 15:21.440]  Sell the house.
[15:21.440 --> 15:22.040]  I doubt it.
[15:24.280 --> 15:30.700]  I'm trying to figure out if this is kind of like West Point or... I mean, I can see how it's like Hogwarts.
[15:30.920 --> 15:37.360]  But I can't see if it's more like West Point or the Defense Language Institute or some kind of specialized...
[15:37.360 --> 15:38.760]  Is it at the college level?
[15:38.880 --> 15:40.300]  You were talking about younger than that.
[15:40.380 --> 15:42.500]  Yeah, you got to start younger, Mark.
[15:42.500 --> 15:49.540]  Which would mean uprooting junior high school students and taking them into this very specialized thing early.
[15:50.080 --> 15:55.280]  Now, so there is a problem which you might be able to solve.
[15:56.120 --> 15:58.540]  Young hackers who get in trouble with the law...
[15:59.220 --> 16:00.180]  That's a great idea.
[16:00.300 --> 16:00.840]  We'd have a camp.
[16:00.840 --> 16:03.020]  There's nothing like the California Conservation Corps.
[16:03.720 --> 16:03.900]  Right.
[16:04.140 --> 16:06.620]  Where they get out and plant trees and fight forest fires.
[16:06.880 --> 16:06.940]  These guys...
[16:06.940 --> 16:08.680]  Mark, these guys never heard of the CCC.
[16:09.020 --> 16:09.320]  Okay.
[16:10.460 --> 16:12.480]  Well, I don't even know how to describe it.
[16:12.760 --> 16:14.840]  It's basically, you know, tough love...
[16:15.380 --> 16:15.420]  Right.
[16:15.440 --> 16:16.360]  ...for young offenders.
[16:16.700 --> 16:17.480]  Yeah, it's a boot camp.
[16:17.720 --> 16:17.880]  Right.
[16:18.640 --> 16:21.920]  But, for example, they're precluded from using computers.
[16:22.080 --> 16:25.160]  They're precluded from working with computers once they're convicted.
[16:25.680 --> 16:27.200]  And that's all they're good at.
[16:27.340 --> 16:28.480]  So it's really stupid.
[16:28.700 --> 16:32.020]  Some of them managed to pull community service or parole.
[16:32.620 --> 16:39.760]  Now, community service is much less authoritarian than what some of the people here are worried about.
[16:39.760 --> 16:44.680]  But it's much less doctrinaire and defined by a top-down command structure.
[16:44.820 --> 16:49.080]  Look at how Colin Powell has done by sticking to being the good soldier.
[16:49.240 --> 16:49.540]  Right.
[16:49.820 --> 16:50.060]  Right?
[16:51.060 --> 16:51.540]  And...
[16:51.540 --> 16:55.280]  Well, yeah, but you have to understand now, the new byword of the CIA is we get it.
[16:55.640 --> 16:56.780]  Yeah, we can connect the dots.
[16:56.800 --> 16:59.100]  It only cost a thousand lives, but we get it now.
[16:59.240 --> 16:59.440]  Right.
[16:59.960 --> 17:00.160]  Yeah.
[17:01.640 --> 17:02.120]  Well...
[17:02.120 --> 17:08.680]  Anyway, so I'm thinking maybe for younger offenders to be outplaced rather than just be on probation.
[17:08.680 --> 17:12.520]  And do community service in this general area might be a good thing.
[17:12.720 --> 17:14.860]  Let me tell one of my favorite three-minute stories.
[17:14.980 --> 17:16.260]  Because you and I had dinner last night.
[17:16.380 --> 17:19.820]  We were talking about stories in the context of security.
[17:20.180 --> 17:25.680]  And everybody needs to know what you do, which is physical security analysis as well as other things.
[17:26.380 --> 17:31.040]  And so you're also concerned about issues that I get involved in.
[17:32.620 --> 17:36.560]  How many of you guys understand what phone phreaking was?
[17:37.820 --> 17:39.960]  God, there's more than I thought there was.
[17:40.700 --> 17:40.940]  Okay.
[17:41.600 --> 17:45.700]  So then you'd all understand my other email address, multifreak at security.org.
[17:48.600 --> 17:56.280]  About 15 years ago, there was a big story in like the New York Times that I happened to read.
[17:57.400 --> 18:02.740]  Delta Airlines Reservation Center was at the Omni Hotel in Atlanta.
[18:02.960 --> 18:03.660]  You remember this?
[18:04.620 --> 18:14.100]  And the first sentence of the story I read, I knew what the problem was that took Bell Labs three years to solve and millions and millions of dollars.
[18:14.100 --> 18:20.540]  Delta Airlines had all their reservation agents in the lobby area of the Omni Hotel.
[18:21.000 --> 18:24.640]  And the trademark of the Omni Hotel was birds flying around.
[18:25.120 --> 18:25.620]  Okay.
[18:26.000 --> 18:28.520]  How many of you already know what the problem is?
[18:29.080 --> 18:29.800]  Okay.
[18:29.800 --> 18:29.840]  Okay.
[18:30.340 --> 18:35.960]  They had on their 800 numbers, and this was when 800 calls cost 30 cents a minute.
[18:36.480 --> 18:40.700]  They had a random disconnect problem for three years.
[18:42.800 --> 18:43.760]  What's this like?
[18:43.780 --> 18:44.540]  What's my line?
[18:45.460 --> 18:45.720]  Okay.
[18:45.720 --> 18:46.600]  2,600.
[18:46.960 --> 18:47.040]  2,600.
[18:47.040 --> 18:47.160]  Yeah.
[18:47.460 --> 18:49.680]  The birds are chirping 2,600.
[18:51.080 --> 19:03.160]  Because all it takes is about 40 milliseconds of a 2,600 cycle pulse to tell the far end CO, we've got an idle trunk, go ahead and make it available for multi-freak out pulsing.
[19:03.600 --> 19:06.280]  Three years it took Bell Labs.
[19:06.400 --> 19:12.240]  All they had to do was hire some phone phreakers and they could have told them in one second.
[19:12.240 --> 19:23.900]  When I watched television programs, the other night I was watching in the heat of the night about the lawyer that was involved in a murder with Kathleen Turner.
[19:24.160 --> 19:30.200]  They actually recorded audio off of a phone call that she made long distance to him.
[19:30.400 --> 19:36.820]  And the reason I know they recorded it is there was about 10 milliseconds of 2,600 cycle.
[19:37.600 --> 19:42.360]  So they actually recorded the call, you know, like 10, 15 years ago when they made the movie.
[19:42.600 --> 19:48.720]  And so this is my prime example of why we should hire the folks, you guys, that get into trouble.
[19:49.400 --> 19:51.920]  Because you have a lot to offer.
[19:52.100 --> 19:53.740]  It just has to be channeled.
[19:53.820 --> 19:55.720]  I mean, you have to understand there are some rules.
[19:56.640 --> 19:58.920]  There's rules everywhere, whether you like it or not.
[19:59.920 --> 20:05.940]  But the bottom line is you guys can be incredibly bright, incredibly creative.
[20:06.980 --> 20:15.620]  And you know how to solve problems without the restrictions of even the way Mark and I think about a problem when we evaluate something.
[20:15.720 --> 20:18.860]  Because we already have stereotypes of stuff we've seen before.
[20:19.160 --> 20:21.200]  So we have preconceived ideas.
[20:21.420 --> 20:23.920]  You guys don't have very many preconceived ideas.
[20:23.920 --> 20:25.220]  And that's what we're talking about.
[20:25.380 --> 20:27.440]  To train you to bring that to a new level.
[20:27.640 --> 20:28.200]  Yes, sir.
[20:28.900 --> 20:34.260]  I was wondering if you knew about the National Science Foundation Scholarship for Service Program.
[20:34.980 --> 20:36.300]  AKA the Cyber Corps.
[20:36.660 --> 20:36.920]  No.
[20:37.460 --> 20:37.660]  Okay.
[20:38.160 --> 20:45.340]  The National Science Foundation from a grant from Congress is doling out millions of dollars to schools across the U.S.
[20:45.340 --> 20:52.940]  to offer scholarships, full scholarships for both grad students and undergrads to study information security.
[20:54.260 --> 20:56.400]  The scholarships last for two years.
[20:57.080 --> 21:00.320]  So that's you either get your graduate degree or you finish your undergrad.
[21:00.560 --> 21:04.220]  And then when you finish, you go to work for the federal government for two years.
[21:04.540 --> 21:04.600]  Right.
[21:06.480 --> 21:13.980]  I'm in this program and it really allows you to learn a lot of the things that you need to know from an information security viewpoint.
[21:14.660 --> 21:26.540]  I don't know if all the schools get into vulnerability analysis type ideas, but they do teach fundamental security problems and issues that you want to address when you're building secure systems.
[21:26.860 --> 21:26.920]  Right.
[21:27.240 --> 21:32.340]  So it's really a way of building things from the ground up and starting to patch and pray from the top down.
[21:32.720 --> 21:32.840]  Right.
[21:34.480 --> 21:35.420]  Or they're not saying.
[21:38.600 --> 21:39.480]  So it's...
[21:39.480 --> 21:40.920]  Okay, well that, it's one component.
[21:41.200 --> 21:41.380]  Right.
[21:41.380 --> 21:43.680]  It's one component of a broad curriculum.
[21:44.000 --> 21:44.540]  Exactly.
[21:45.160 --> 21:51.860]  So it, you know, the government is addressing this idea of schooling people in ways and getting them into the government.
[21:51.900 --> 21:52.740]  In specific areas.
[21:52.980 --> 21:53.200]  Right.
[21:53.380 --> 21:53.540]  Right.
[21:53.760 --> 22:08.960]  The question is, do we need some type of a national college, just like the National War College, to bring really bright kids in and really give them an education and then turn them around and put them back out to use them?
[22:10.080 --> 22:12.100]  Directly to the federal government or...
[22:12.100 --> 22:12.300]  No, not necessarily.
[22:12.540 --> 22:14.620]  Look, private industry's got the same problem.
[22:15.140 --> 22:17.100]  It's not just the federal government.
[22:17.680 --> 22:22.100]  If you looked at law statistics, it's not just the federal government.
[22:22.340 --> 22:22.540]  Oh.
[22:22.780 --> 22:23.740]  It's everywhere.
[22:23.940 --> 22:24.700]  Oh, I agree, yes.
[22:24.920 --> 22:27.700]  I mean, information security is, you know, it's a problem for everyone.
[22:28.160 --> 22:36.340]  It's, I mean, coming, learning what I've learned so far, you know, you know that people have been ignoring it for so long and then, oh, you know, now we get the idea.
[22:36.600 --> 22:36.960]  Yeah.
[22:36.960 --> 22:39.600]  So, you know, it's one way of addressing the problem.
[22:39.740 --> 22:49.020]  But as for creating a specific academy, I don't think I agree with that just because in the fact that I...
[22:50.460 --> 22:51.540]  Let's just say it's my opinion.
[22:51.660 --> 22:53.020]  I can't formulate a good argument right now.
[22:53.400 --> 22:53.760]  Okay.
[22:54.020 --> 22:54.560]  Thank you.
[22:55.260 --> 22:55.780]  Yes, sir.
[22:57.000 --> 23:02.000]  Oh, if you make a federal, or if it's going to be a federal facility or...
[23:02.000 --> 23:05.260]  It's going to be as competitive as, like, NSA and CIA scholarships.
[23:05.280 --> 23:10.440]  There's going to be thousands upon thousands of people that want to apply for this just because it's going to be an elite job.
[23:10.980 --> 23:12.520]  So, you're going to have highly selected.
[23:12.600 --> 23:18.160]  You're going to have to put the applications towards the board like they do, like, military applications for West Point and Naval Academy.
[23:18.920 --> 23:21.660]  So, you're going to have plenty of people that are going to want to do this.
[23:22.200 --> 23:24.500]  And if it's going to have to be federal certified.
[23:25.140 --> 23:26.860]  The CIA and stuff are going to want these kids.
[23:26.860 --> 23:29.780]  They're going to be highly trained since 15 to 21.
[23:30.500 --> 23:37.840]  So the CIA is going to want these kids, so they'll probably pay for it, and then you'll have to work for them for like four years, like you do in the military for your free education.
[23:37.840 --> 23:37.940]  Maybe.
[23:37.940 --> 23:41.140]  It could be a joint venture between the government and the private sector.
[23:42.720 --> 23:44.040]  The government's going to want all the kids.
[23:44.180 --> 23:47.260]  I'm like, yeah, take those, and we get these highly trained ones here.
[23:47.320 --> 23:51.700]  You might give the flunkies to the ones, and then give all the good ones to the federal government.
[23:51.700 --> 23:55.540]  Yeah, well, maybe the rejects are going to private industry.
[23:57.800 --> 23:58.540]  Yes, sir.
[24:00.220 --> 24:14.540]  A lot of what you're saying here, you know, the basic debate over the setting up of West Point was almost the same thing, where should we have essentially a national militia, or should we have a professional army?
[24:14.540 --> 24:22.360]  This debate raged greatly before West Point, and well into the time West Point was established.
[24:22.780 --> 24:25.980]  There were attempts to shut down West Point once it had been established.
[24:26.200 --> 24:31.600]  So this echoes historically what happened with, you know, the point.
[24:31.880 --> 24:35.760]  However, I must tell you, I have a strongly conservative background.
[24:35.760 --> 24:46.260]  Sir, at a time when constitutional rights are... there's a great debate over the future form they're going to take.
[24:46.600 --> 24:58.840]  At a time when the United States government is either run by or greatly influenced by private, elite organizations that operate largely in the black.
[24:58.840 --> 25:02.320]  How many people know what the Lucis Trust is?
[25:02.600 --> 25:05.640]  How many people know what the Council on Foreign Relations is?
[25:05.800 --> 25:08.140]  Or the Bilderberg Group, or the Trilateral Commission?
[25:08.500 --> 25:13.500]  These are the people who are running the government now and formulating the policy.
[25:13.940 --> 25:15.960]  Now, you got a war going on?
[25:16.060 --> 25:17.020]  Where's it coming from?
[25:17.280 --> 25:27.080]  The bottom line is, at a time when we have many private, elite organizations having all kinds of undue influence, what now?
[25:27.080 --> 25:37.000]  Now we're going to concentrate the technical cream of America into an Egyptian priesthood?
[25:37.160 --> 25:39.000]  Who are they going to be working for?
[25:39.160 --> 25:40.580]  The elected officials?
[25:40.820 --> 25:44.840]  Hey, listen, the elected officials aren't giving the orders anymore in this country.
[25:45.040 --> 25:49.780]  So the thing is that I'm saying, yes, there is a lot of waste of technical knowledge.
[25:50.040 --> 25:54.680]  I mean, first of all, the funding for science in this country is crazy.
[25:54.680 --> 25:57.060]  There's no funding for energy medicine.
[25:57.240 --> 25:59.260]  There's no funding for zero-point energy.
[25:59.420 --> 26:01.120]  My God, we're running out of energy.
[26:01.300 --> 26:02.460]  I agree with all that.
[26:02.760 --> 26:05.680]  There's tremendous waste, there's tremendous defocus.
[26:06.140 --> 26:09.720]  However, there are grave dangers in what you're saying.
[26:10.140 --> 26:16.080]  More now because the technology around the last turn of the century was muskets.
[26:16.080 --> 26:16.740]  Okay?
[26:17.140 --> 26:22.760]  Now we're talking about really deadly technology that you can cook up in your home.
[26:22.980 --> 26:28.060]  You want to concentrate everything into an Egyptian priesthood?
[26:28.060 --> 26:32.320]  It's going to have very, very dangerous thinking.
[26:32.540 --> 26:35.160]  There are many, many dangerous downsides.
[26:35.160 --> 26:44.180]  And at a time when government is doing what it's doing, more concentration of power, there are a bunch of secret societies that are running the government now.
[26:44.520 --> 26:45.320]  Thank you, sir.
[26:45.560 --> 26:50.220]  So you wouldn't think it'd be a good idea to have John Ashcroft as the first dean of students?
[26:53.260 --> 26:54.340]  Don't tempt me.
[26:54.980 --> 26:56.180]  Don't tempt me!
[26:56.180 --> 26:57.440]  Thank you, sir.
[26:58.200 --> 26:58.980]  Thank you, sir.
[26:59.220 --> 26:59.340]  Thank you.
[27:07.780 --> 27:09.740]  I have a question for you.
[27:10.400 --> 27:10.920]  Sure.
[27:11.080 --> 27:15.000]  What exactly do you mean by private and public sector?
[27:15.200 --> 27:16.620]  How do you really define it?
[27:16.680 --> 27:18.620]  What do I mean by private sector?
[27:18.920 --> 27:19.440]  Both.
[27:20.060 --> 27:21.260]  Versus public sector?
[27:21.480 --> 27:22.120]  What's a sector?
[27:25.070 --> 27:31.850]  Well, I mean, it's a broad... there's either government or there's private.
[27:32.250 --> 27:35.830]  But isn't that like all coming together now with like corporations?
[27:35.830 --> 27:37.290]  You have to talk close to the microphone.
[27:37.530 --> 27:43.370]  Isn't that coming together now with like corporations and multinational companies and everything?
[27:43.550 --> 27:48.290]  Yeah, but you know, corporations are still essentially private unless they're defense contractors.
[27:49.110 --> 27:50.810]  But then what isn't private?
[27:52.310 --> 27:54.050]  Well, there's a lot of not private.
[27:54.390 --> 27:59.130]  Everything from banks to insurance companies to media to everything that's not government.
[27:59.950 --> 28:01.550]  Well, who owns it then?
[28:04.510 --> 28:05.030]  Stockholders.
[28:05.290 --> 28:05.530]  You do.
[28:06.030 --> 28:06.510]  Really?
[28:07.830 --> 28:08.730]  I don't know.
[28:08.990 --> 28:24.850]  And what do you think would happen if you just took a bunch of like people at a very young age, even younger than 12, let's say, and just told them how to break every single rule and that it doesn't...
[28:24.850 --> 28:27.750]  Unfortunately, a lot of them are figuring out on their own.
[28:28.130 --> 28:30.550]  But what if they were...
[28:31.070 --> 28:33.170]  Well, because it needs to be channeled.
[28:34.450 --> 28:35.710]  Why does it need to be channeled?
[28:36.470 --> 28:37.310]  Yeah, why?
[28:37.310 --> 28:39.250]  Well, okay.
[28:42.770 --> 28:50.030]  Because if you channel it to solving problems, the question is whether you want to help solve problems.
[28:52.350 --> 28:57.130]  If a lot... a thousand people acting on their own doesn't help you.
[28:57.490 --> 29:01.190]  A thousand people in a concerted effort, it does help you.
[29:01.190 --> 29:01.230]  Yeah.
[29:03.230 --> 29:03.830]  Yes, sir.
[29:04.910 --> 29:05.310]  All right.
[29:05.350 --> 29:08.750]  I'll start off with a caveat that I'm Canadian, so I'm probably talking about a ass here.
[29:08.910 --> 29:08.950]  Oh, okay.
[29:08.950 --> 29:10.210]  We're here to help you.
[29:12.070 --> 29:12.630]  I'm sorry.
[29:12.850 --> 29:15.150]  The United States is an entertainment sport for us.
[29:15.150 --> 29:16.130]  Now, you guys are...
[29:16.130 --> 29:18.330]  You guys have been annexed to the United States, haven't you?
[29:18.810 --> 29:19.890]  I didn't get that memo.
[29:20.050 --> 29:20.290]  Sorry.
[29:20.890 --> 29:22.810]  I thought we did that with NAFTA.
[29:24.010 --> 29:25.870]  No, that was just us bending over.
[29:25.990 --> 29:26.890]  That's a whole different topic.
[29:27.070 --> 29:29.090]  Could you explain one thing to everybody here?
[29:29.970 --> 29:30.510]  What's that?
[29:30.510 --> 29:33.350]  Who's the idiot that came up with your ZIP Code system?
[29:35.010 --> 29:36.790]  I think you guys thought of it first.
[29:37.750 --> 29:38.010]  No.
[29:40.690 --> 29:41.130]  L4J5B3.
[29:41.230 --> 29:42.990]  Go correlate that one.
[29:43.330 --> 29:45.310]  Letter, number, letter, number, letter.
[29:45.530 --> 29:46.030]  Yeah, okay.
[29:46.130 --> 29:46.670]  So go ahead.
[29:47.810 --> 29:49.250]  We're here to help you.
[29:49.670 --> 29:50.150]  All right.
[29:52.250 --> 29:56.530]  I've talked with Robert Steele and others about this sort of thing for quite a while.
[29:56.530 --> 30:10.730]  And there seems to be this whole idea of taking the talent that is obviously out there, the skills that are needed within the public sector, and then bringing them into a fold and putting them to task for various national protection, whatever.
[30:11.870 --> 30:23.310]  It just seems to me that when you're taking people into this fold and indoctrinating them, even if you're still letting them have their fun and everything like that, you're still taking away and putting them in that environment.
[30:23.610 --> 30:25.090]  I don't think you should be bringing them in.
[30:25.090 --> 30:27.210]  You should be inviting them in.
[30:27.390 --> 30:30.110]  Well, I'm not talking about going and snapping them up off the street.
[30:30.390 --> 30:30.470]  No.
[30:31.210 --> 30:37.430]  No, you're saying bringing them in in their teens and training them in a militia, military...
[30:37.430 --> 30:38.550]  No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.
[30:38.650 --> 30:38.870]  Something.
[30:39.470 --> 30:41.150]  Totally non-violent, first of all.
[30:41.270 --> 30:41.390]  No.
[30:41.750 --> 30:44.230]  Not saying, but just that sort of organized structure.
[30:44.330 --> 30:49.290]  And I was going to get to that as far as potential courses in a curriculum other than liberal arts stuff, okay?
[30:50.250 --> 30:51.110]  So go ahead.
[30:51.390 --> 30:54.230]  And then I'm going to ask everybody, what do you think courses ought to be?
[30:54.310 --> 31:01.530]  Essentially, you're always going to have your rank and file geeks in the military to push buttons on the war machines and everything like that.
[31:02.570 --> 31:04.510]  But that's not really what we're talking about.
[31:04.710 --> 31:05.070]  I know.
[31:06.290 --> 31:10.870]  But why not have a more open thing where you've got the talent already out there, bring them in.
[31:11.010 --> 31:13.410]  Say, we need this sort of task done.
[31:13.930 --> 31:14.630]  Invite them in.
[31:14.670 --> 31:18.490]  I mean, as my friend here said, everybody's willing to defend their country.
[31:19.050 --> 31:26.270]  Maybe not in such a direct method, but if there's a threat and you can solve it, I mean, to know about...
[31:26.270 --> 31:28.330]  Okay, but how would you do that if...
[31:28.330 --> 31:34.150]  Because the minute you do that, you're making the threat known and that you're working to solve it to the bad guys.
[31:34.690 --> 31:35.810]  That's how it has to go.
[31:35.850 --> 31:37.110]  So how do you do that?
[31:37.550 --> 31:50.750]  Well, when you start operating under a secret cloak of only people that you've trained and authorized in that, there's so many people out there that you are already missing that wouldn't think of normally doing this, but if they knew, hey, I'm already working on this sort of thing in my basement,
[31:51.610 --> 31:56.010]  you know, they might step forward and say, for the good of the country, here's half your solution or the entire thing.
[31:56.930 --> 31:59.550]  Okay, but the reality is, would they come forward and help?
[32:00.650 --> 32:09.190]  In the cases of national pride and patriotism, a lot of people would, outside of, you know, all sorts of politics that are going on right now.
[32:09.390 --> 32:09.750]  Okay.
[32:09.990 --> 32:11.450]  But, you know, imminent threat and everything like that.
[32:12.490 --> 32:13.830]  What if the threat is to government?
[32:15.550 --> 32:18.590]  Well, now, that would be a novel thought.
[32:21.190 --> 32:25.570]  I mean, once we got through Watergate, we've never had any more problems, have we?
[32:27.290 --> 32:29.350]  No, now they can do Watergate legally.
[32:30.410 --> 32:30.930]  Right.
[32:31.350 --> 32:32.370]  Under the PATRIOT Act.
[32:32.750 --> 32:33.490]  Right, that's right.
[32:33.650 --> 32:33.810]  No problem.
[32:35.090 --> 32:36.550]  Maybe these people are
[32:41.300 --> 32:42.180]  already...
[32:42.180 --> 32:43.620]  It's just...
[32:44.720 --> 32:45.240]  Okay.
[32:46.040 --> 32:49.080]  I was just going to make, I guess, bring two thoughts together.
[32:49.220 --> 32:49.560]  Okay.
[32:51.040 --> 32:56.740]  One is, there's an old saw in the military that amateurs talk tactics, professionals talk logistics.
[32:56.740 --> 32:57.300]  Right.
[32:57.600 --> 33:00.140]  And in legislature, it's where does the money come from?
[33:00.660 --> 33:01.120]  That's right.
[33:01.220 --> 33:07.040]  The second thought is, looking at history here in New York City, for instance, the City University of New York used to be free.
[33:07.920 --> 33:08.280]  Right.
[33:08.500 --> 33:10.000]  To people who could qualify to get in.
[33:10.160 --> 33:11.940]  Talk a little closer to your mic so everybody can hear.
[33:11.940 --> 33:25.940]  And we chose, or whatever the state chose, we started charging for City University of New York the same year that we passed the Rockefeller laws, basically to increase the prison population.
[33:25.940 --> 33:27.080]  It's been going up ever since.
[33:27.440 --> 33:33.340]  Maybe we should be investing in our education system with cuts from the prison industrial complex.
[33:34.740 --> 33:38.360]  Well, when you say cuts from the prison industrial complex, what does that mean?
[33:38.880 --> 33:45.840]  Well, we're driving more and more, we have policies which are driving more and more people into crime, drug laws, things like that.
[33:46.820 --> 33:55.080]  I mean, it's a couple molecules difference between, let's say, some drugs you can get in the drug store and what they'll convict people for.
[33:55.600 --> 33:56.080]  Yeah.
[33:57.420 --> 33:59.780]  Yeah, that's true, but that's a different policy.
[34:00.720 --> 34:05.240]  That's a whole different policy range that sort of is outside the scope of this.
[34:05.700 --> 34:12.960]  I'll say the other side, too, is that right now the Department of Homeland Security, because they don't have civil service protection, is essentially a patronage police force.
[34:13.920 --> 34:18.160]  So we're just basically going to be augmenting the patronage police force.
[34:19.040 --> 34:22.610]  Maybe get them at younger ages, too, so they can be indoctrinated more thoroughly.
[34:22.980 --> 34:27.660]  But when I start to think about that, look at the governments that have done that in the past, right?
[34:27.800 --> 34:28.720]  Like Nazi Germany.
[34:30.240 --> 34:31.660]  Yeah, we call it Bush Youth, you know.
[34:32.730 --> 34:38.040]  But the other thing is, too, if you remember, that's the Republican Guard are usually separated from their parents around 9 to 10.
[34:38.040 --> 34:39.900]  God, now that takes on new meaning, doesn't it?
[34:39.940 --> 34:41.200]  The Republican Guard.
[34:43.880 --> 34:46.420]  So it's just, it's a very, very scary thought, too.
[34:46.550 --> 34:50.020]  And you look at the pattern in history, they want to get them young enough to indoctrinate them.
[34:50.020 --> 34:53.200]  But at that point, it becomes very dangerous.
[34:53.400 --> 34:56.220]  I wonder if Kerry has thought about that for a campaign phrase.
[34:57.050 --> 34:57.840]  Bush Youth.
[34:58.820 --> 34:59.480]  Thank you.
[35:03.220 --> 35:03.860]  Hey there.
[35:03.980 --> 35:09.300]  Yeah, I just want to touch base on the whole analogy you're using with the Harry Potter meets reality.
[35:09.300 --> 35:14.780]  Because a lot of these things that people are bringing up are also kind of discussed within the series of books.
[35:15.200 --> 35:22.600]  Being that, yes, they're teaching these kids how to use magic, but they're not teaching them whether to use it for good purposes or for bad purposes.
[35:22.840 --> 35:22.920]  Right.
[35:22.920 --> 35:22.960]  Right.
[35:22.960 --> 35:29.940]  So, I don't think we can just tell people, we can't do this thing because people might do it or somebody might take control or something.
[35:30.200 --> 35:32.700]  Because that would just stop any sort of progress.
[35:32.900 --> 35:33.340]  Yeah, that's right.
[35:33.540 --> 35:41.700]  I mean, something like this could be very good for a lot of different sectors, the public, the private, and maybe, you know, a few things that nobody ever thought of.
[35:42.600 --> 35:50.060]  However, like you said, I don't think people should be too worried about, you know, creating like this mass of, you know, controlled hackers.
[35:51.080 --> 35:53.100]  Yeah, it's not the Manchurian candidate.
[35:55.260 --> 36:00.520]  So, basically, I mean, like people, they bring up, like the guy said that, you know, you're creating like a priesthood.
[36:00.740 --> 36:02.960]  Well, it has that potential, yes.
[36:03.440 --> 36:11.240]  And even if we take people from young age, I mean, if you're, if anybody's familiar with the books, you know, you start from young age and they could become like this grand evil wizard.
[36:11.240 --> 36:22.400]  But for the most part, the people, if, if the program is proper and with the right, with, with the right steps taken, people will be willing to utilize their, utilize their skills.
[36:22.760 --> 36:31.820]  And, and it's in a public fashion as well because, I mean, people who are working against them know that they're magicians and they, it's already known what everyone can do.
[36:31.820 --> 36:39.200]  So, it's just a matter of training someone to think outside the box and to utilize their skills better than someone else can utilize their skills.
[36:39.320 --> 36:45.620]  Listen, the day you, the day there would be an academy like this, there'd be a million applications that would be received online.
[36:45.920 --> 36:46.180]  Right.
[36:46.360 --> 36:58.820]  And I think also it should probably also be more invitation based instead of just like people just randomly applying because that'll take out a lot of the, just people who, just people who just want to see what's going on.
[36:58.820 --> 37:03.080]  And then you know what, all the counselors in all the high schools, they all know who the, the, the kids are.
[37:03.880 --> 37:04.180]  Yeah.
[37:04.240 --> 37:07.460]  But not, they don't, they don't cause you know, the counselors at my schools thought I was an idiot.
[37:07.740 --> 37:07.920]  So.
[37:09.080 --> 37:10.700]  Was, how close was he?
[37:12.980 --> 37:14.100]  They were just muggles.
[37:14.300 --> 37:15.560]  Yes, they were muggles.
[37:15.820 --> 37:16.140]  Okay.
[37:16.260 --> 37:20.200]  They told me cause I was basically cause I was an African American student in a white community.
[37:20.400 --> 37:21.420]  They didn't think I could do well.
[37:21.760 --> 37:22.060]  Right.
[37:22.060 --> 37:24.640]  And when I got, when I got 1500 on the SATs they thought I was cheating.
[37:24.640 --> 37:25.740]  I bet that was a shock.
[37:25.900 --> 37:26.780]  They thought I cheated.
[37:27.360 --> 37:27.720]  Right.
[37:27.720 --> 37:28.500]  Of course.
[37:29.420 --> 37:33.100]  Actually, I worked a polygraph case years ago.
[37:33.220 --> 37:41.820]  A kid got about 400 points above on his SATs, and they accused him of the same thing, of cheating, because they said, there's no way you could have got this high a score.
[37:41.900 --> 37:42.640]  You're not bright enough.
[37:43.020 --> 37:43.320]  Basically.
[37:43.580 --> 37:49.120]  Yeah, they hired an ex-CIA handwriting expert to go over his exam, and they did fingerprints.
[37:49.520 --> 37:52.260]  At the end of the day, they let him into the school he wanted to go to.
[37:53.600 --> 37:54.480]  I love it.
[37:54.600 --> 37:56.100]  But I like the idea, basically.
[37:56.260 --> 37:56.960]  Okay, thank you.
[37:59.840 --> 38:08.740]  I could be wrong, but I believe a program that you're describing already exists in the University of Georgetown.
[38:08.960 --> 38:10.360]  It's called National Security College.
[38:10.520 --> 38:13.840]  Well, there's pieces of the program.
[38:14.060 --> 38:16.880]  They have a security info management and a security management program.
[38:16.880 --> 38:16.880]  Right.
[38:16.880 --> 38:18.420]  Well, there's some schools that have those.
[38:18.600 --> 38:18.840]  Right.
[38:18.960 --> 38:20.060]  And it's funded by the DIA.
[38:20.320 --> 38:20.640]  Right.
[38:21.320 --> 38:21.760]  Right.
[38:22.840 --> 38:26.300]  Okay, so we have 10 minutes left, essentially, or 15 minutes left.
[38:26.480 --> 38:27.640]  Talk to me about curriculum.
[38:27.720 --> 38:29.580]  How about... Yes, sir.
[38:29.720 --> 38:29.940]  Go ahead.
[38:30.200 --> 38:30.800]  Yeah, hi.
[38:31.960 --> 38:38.540]  First of all, let me tell you that idea is good, and like the other gentleman said, it's the implementation that matters the most.
[38:38.920 --> 38:58.140]  Second thing is, let me second the other gentleman, who said that you have to look for the aptitude in a student, not only whether he or she is good in math or science or chemistry, because it's all about thinking outside the box, like you said.
[38:58.480 --> 38:58.800]  That's right.
[38:59.080 --> 39:00.380]  Third thing is curriculum.
[39:00.380 --> 39:01.560]  It should be open.
[39:01.740 --> 39:03.380]  It should be open to public review.
[39:03.500 --> 39:06.020]  And by public review, I mean these people.
[39:06.220 --> 39:06.800]  Right, okay.
[39:06.840 --> 39:07.820]  These people around here.
[39:07.940 --> 39:08.620]  Of the peers.
[39:10.060 --> 39:10.500]  Yes.
[39:10.500 --> 39:16.640]  And like you know, these people do not follow standards.
[39:16.800 --> 39:30.280]  I agree that there must be some standards, but if they feel oppressive, if they feel that they are being suppressed or they are being ordered or they are being commanded or used like zombies or robots, they are not going to work for you.
[39:30.360 --> 39:30.860]  No, of course not.
[39:30.860 --> 39:31.820]  They are not going to work on their own agenda.
[39:32.160 --> 39:32.260]  Right.
[39:32.500 --> 39:41.540]  So, it's a matter of trust whether what you are saying is, we will train you, but then you will do what we want you to do.
[39:41.540 --> 39:42.480]  That's not going to work.
[39:43.080 --> 39:44.440]  Not with this kind of people.
[39:44.640 --> 39:48.580]  Not with, if you tell me, yeah, I will learn everything, I'll flee.
[39:48.820 --> 39:50.360]  I'll do whatever I want to do.
[39:50.780 --> 39:54.640]  Because no one can own us.
[39:55.080 --> 39:56.720]  No one can really own us.
[39:57.360 --> 39:58.680]  It's here and here.
[39:58.680 --> 40:09.440]  But the bottom line is, if somebody gives you a tuition-free education, I don't care whether it's, you know, Citibank or whether it's the CIA or whether it's, you know, whatever.
[40:10.100 --> 40:11.140]  There's a commitment.
[40:11.560 --> 40:14.880]  And you either have to agree to honor that commitment or you don't.
[40:14.880 --> 40:20.380]  Yeah, but you do not want to fall through the cracks of standards that this is how it is supposed to be.
[40:20.500 --> 40:30.400]  Because this world, in this world, it is the world of, not this is how it is supposed to be, but what you can do with, when it is not how it is supposed to be.
[40:30.600 --> 40:37.900]  When it is, it's basically if you think, if you are talking about thinking outside the box, At the same time, you are saying, this is how it is supposed to be.
[40:38.260 --> 40:41.120]  It's a conflicting matter.
[40:41.400 --> 40:41.700]  Right.
[40:42.180 --> 40:48.480]  All I know is the instructors would have a hell of a good time, because the students would really have a good time with them.
[40:49.160 --> 40:49.760]  Of course.
[40:49.860 --> 40:51.360]  They've got to be better than us.
[40:51.640 --> 40:51.960]  Oh, yeah.
[40:52.140 --> 40:52.500]  Absolutely.
[40:52.920 --> 40:54.260]  Next, because we're going to run out of time.
[40:54.400 --> 40:54.780]  Thank you.
[40:56.980 --> 40:57.340]  Okay.
[40:57.480 --> 40:58.760]  I don't know if we have enough time.
[40:58.880 --> 41:00.000]  We've got some time.
[41:00.440 --> 41:03.820]  Do you have enough time to tell your Antwerp story that you didn't get around to?
[41:03.820 --> 41:04.540]  Oh, geez.
[41:04.880 --> 41:06.000]  Maybe in five minutes.
[41:06.180 --> 41:06.640]  Next guy.
[41:06.840 --> 41:07.560]  We'll try it.
[41:08.900 --> 41:16.420]  Would you consider having a program like NYU does with Gallatin in which the students get to choose their own major?
[41:16.600 --> 41:19.280]  You keep saying that they should think outside the box.
[41:19.480 --> 41:19.480]  Yeah.
[41:20.700 --> 41:27.180]  Within... let's just say you had a curriculum and you could choose 20 different courses like you do now as electives.
[41:27.340 --> 41:31.740]  And you could say, okay, I think I have an aptitude for such and such, so I'd like to specialize in it.
[41:31.860 --> 41:32.020]  Sure.
[41:33.360 --> 41:39.280]  Nobody's going to... look, if this happened, nobody's going to say, like the Army, you're going into this, you're going into that.
[41:40.040 --> 41:42.780]  You know, everybody would have to figure out what they'd be good at.
[41:43.240 --> 41:44.340]  I mean, that's the trick.
[41:44.640 --> 41:50.140]  Nobody wants guys that aren't good at something to excel in it, because they won't.
[41:52.200 --> 41:52.980]  Yes, sir.
[41:53.920 --> 41:57.000]  You started to bring up the topic of curriculums and courses.
[41:57.380 --> 41:57.740]  Yep.
[41:57.740 --> 42:04.920]  I think there's obviously some very clear ones that are horribly not touched upon in regular analytic thinking, creative problem solving.
[42:05.240 --> 42:05.380]  Yep.
[42:05.500 --> 42:07.100]  But one key aspect...
[42:07.100 --> 42:07.200]  Ethics.
[42:07.540 --> 42:07.820]  Yes.
[42:07.820 --> 42:20.800]  One key aspect that makes this community so fantastic at attacking problems, if you want to call it thinking outside the box or what have you, what I would just say, it's questioning convention and questioning authority.
[42:21.380 --> 42:22.120]  I'm actually...
[42:22.120 --> 42:25.940]  I am a teacher, and one of the things I try to drill into every student's head...
[42:25.940 --> 42:26.680]  I tell them all that...
[42:26.680 --> 42:27.700]  I quote Chomsky a lot.
[42:27.700 --> 42:33.640]  I'll say, you know, every time someone ever tells you something with a great deal of certainty, the first thought in your mind should be, is that true?
[42:33.900 --> 42:36.180]  Or, is this person telling me something accurately?
[42:36.620 --> 42:41.520]  The idea of questioning authority and questioning it constantly, I feel, is an indispensable talent.
[42:41.660 --> 42:41.800]  Right.
[42:41.900 --> 42:49.200]  But I feel is very conflicting with the idea of government or centralized service, service towards a goal or towards an objective.
[42:49.460 --> 42:51.240]  How do you bring those two terms together?
[42:51.240 --> 42:52.820]  Well, because you have to reach a balance.
[42:52.940 --> 42:55.320]  Because at some point, you have to take certain things as truth.
[42:55.900 --> 42:59.080]  And, you know, like WMD, we all know about that.
[43:00.620 --> 43:05.500]  But, you know, seriously, you can't learn anything if you question everything.
[43:05.800 --> 43:07.460]  I mean, that's the problem.
[43:07.920 --> 43:09.900]  I mean, I tell a lot of young kids...
[43:09.900 --> 43:12.660]  I would think a lot of people here, myself included, disagree with that.
[43:12.960 --> 43:14.960]  Well, I mean, you'll never get an education.
[43:15.760 --> 43:17.240]  I mean, you've got to take certain truths.
[43:17.240 --> 43:19.840]  I would say that I'm an example of the opposite of that statement.
[43:19.840 --> 43:20.080]  Okay.
[43:20.740 --> 43:22.460]  I'm sorry, I feel like I'm giving you a hard time.
[43:22.700 --> 43:23.440]  No, no, you're not.
[43:23.740 --> 43:32.040]  I mean, I ask a lot of young kids when they come home to their parents that are friends of mine, 10, 12 years old, and they say, well, we learned this in school and we don't understand.
[43:32.400 --> 43:36.260]  I say, tomorrow, why don't you go ask your teacher, just raise your hand and say, why is this relevant?
[43:37.400 --> 43:39.400]  And what's the reaction that you get?
[43:40.080 --> 43:42.000]  You know, first you'll go to detention.
[43:42.200 --> 43:43.520]  That'll be the first reaction.
[43:44.180 --> 43:45.720]  But it's really a good question.
[43:45.780 --> 43:46.720]  Why is it relevant?
[43:47.020 --> 43:48.260]  What do I got to learn how to run...
[43:48.260 --> 43:52.780]  to do a math workout theorems today when I got a calculator that'll do it?
[43:54.100 --> 43:56.340]  Calculators can't do theorems for a start.
[43:56.500 --> 43:56.920]  Okay.
[43:58.280 --> 43:59.700]  Yeah, well, okay.
[43:59.840 --> 44:00.340]  Thank you.
[44:01.920 --> 44:02.460]  Next.
[44:02.660 --> 44:03.560]  We're going to...
[44:05.820 --> 44:06.360]  Yeah.
[44:10.930 --> 44:11.470]  Okay.
[44:11.930 --> 44:12.470]  Go.
[44:14.190 --> 44:18.870]  So, who's going to pay for the college for people that will resist the U.S. government if that is ever needed?
[44:20.810 --> 44:22.570]  Say, like now?
[44:22.570 --> 44:22.590]  No?
[44:23.890 --> 44:24.870]  Well, I don't understand.
[44:25.150 --> 44:26.030]  So, repeat the question.
[44:26.810 --> 44:35.570]  You're talking about somehow creating this body of hackers that would defend America against terrorism or against...
[44:35.570 --> 44:35.850]  Okay.
[44:36.270 --> 44:42.730]  And I'm sort of thinking of a body of free-thinking minds that would defend America against the U.S. government.
[44:44.210 --> 44:45.630]  How would that be organized?
[44:45.870 --> 44:47.550]  How do you see that sort of...
[44:47.550 --> 44:51.130]  Because the whole idea of all these people owning, having...
[44:51.130 --> 44:59.050]  All these smart people having a moral debt to some centralized organization that paid their tuition scares the f*ck out of me.
[44:59.210 --> 45:00.510]  I think it's called an election.
[45:02.990 --> 45:03.790]  You mean...
[45:03.790 --> 45:04.730]  As in Diebold?
[45:05.450 --> 45:05.850]  Yeah.
[45:06.090 --> 45:08.590]  It worked great in Florida, didn't it?
[45:10.030 --> 45:11.550]  I don't know the answer to that.
[45:12.510 --> 45:14.050]  I don't know the answer to that.
[45:14.090 --> 45:17.690]  Well, maybe then all of this, if you don't know the answer to that, maybe all of this is really a crap idea.
[45:17.690 --> 45:18.630]  I don't have all the answers.
[45:18.910 --> 45:20.270]  That's why I'm asking you guys.
[45:20.490 --> 45:20.850]  Okay.
[45:21.250 --> 45:21.730]  Yes, sir.
[45:22.410 --> 45:38.630]  I found it of interest that the previous speaker mentioned attention deficit disorder because it occurred to me that perhaps some of the best minds are the ones who do have attention deficit disorder because often they can hyper-focus on a problem, think out of the box,
[45:38.710 --> 45:41.930]  and figure things out that somebody else maybe can't.
[45:41.930 --> 45:47.830]  Is there any correlation between people with attention deficit disorder and people who can think out of the box?
[45:47.990 --> 45:48.650]  I don't know.
[45:49.270 --> 45:51.090]  I honestly, I don't know the answer to that.
[45:51.790 --> 45:52.370]  Yes, sir.
[45:52.850 --> 45:55.470]  This is going back to what the Canadian gentleman said.
[45:57.050 --> 45:58.010]  You have to talk up.
[45:58.130 --> 45:58.270]  Sorry.
[45:59.090 --> 46:11.510]  I think you should focus on not recruiting people for a specific task force, but for sending a problem out to the knowledge that's available out here and the skill.
[46:12.330 --> 46:17.410]  I think a lot of people probably know about the Half-Life 2 source code being stolen not too long ago.
[46:17.850 --> 46:22.490]  And everybody was really annoyed at that because it delayed the progress of the game.
[46:22.490 --> 46:25.950]  So the community just united and they tracked down whoever it was, the hacker.
[46:26.770 --> 46:35.570]  So I think when the community of gamers, hackers, just computer enthusiasts, wants to do something, they unite and just, you don't have to train them.
[46:35.950 --> 46:37.810]  You just have to tell them what the problem is.
[46:38.210 --> 46:39.670]  Put the follow-up there.
[46:39.870 --> 46:40.310]  Okay.
[46:40.870 --> 46:42.230]  Because we are running out of time.
[46:42.610 --> 46:50.350]  Would you, if you guys really think this idea has any merit, would you email me with curriculum ideas and any other thoughts you have?
[46:50.990 --> 46:52.330]  And then we'll put it all together.
[46:52.430 --> 46:54.270]  And maybe I'll put up a website on it.
[46:54.430 --> 46:59.550]  But we'd really like to pursue it with, I mean you guys are the core.
[47:00.170 --> 47:07.870]  And so if you'd really, when you get a chance, when you think about it, send me an email and we'll engage in a dialogue.
[47:08.310 --> 47:09.190]  Could you repeat your email?
[47:09.190 --> 47:17.190]  Yeah, it's MW Tobias, T-O-B-I-A-S, at security.org.
[47:18.870 --> 47:19.510]  Thank you.
[47:19.670 --> 47:20.350]  Any other questions?
[47:21.970 --> 47:23.090]  Thanks a lot, guys.
[47:23.370 --> 47:24.670]  Have a great time in New York.