[00:03.010 --> 00:17.650]  So, we want to have a discussion today really about what could or what we think should be possible on the Internet if we just kind of took a little bit more time to think about some of the basic ways that we exist and message online.
[00:18.850 --> 00:29.890]  Our goal for this session is really just kind of propose an idea and kind of take you through how we think about messaging, about email, and then also just have a discussion.
[00:29.890 --> 00:31.530]  So, we look forward to your questions at the end.
[00:32.470 --> 00:34.370]  Email is about to turn 50 years old.
[00:34.930 --> 00:40.210]  It's older than I am, and it's definitely a product of another era.
[00:41.050 --> 00:43.110]  It has over 4 billion users.
[00:43.310 --> 00:49.230]  Almost everyone here, I'm sure, has an email address, and it's the most widely formed use of digital communication.
[00:49.230 --> 00:50.150]  All this you guys know.
[00:51.190 --> 00:59.030]  It's so obsolete in so many ways, and we all still use it, which Dan and I just find a little mind-boggling.
[01:01.170 --> 01:07.910]  It's a little crazy that there's no true successor for messaging in heterogeneous environments.
[01:08.150 --> 01:11.690]  So, messaging across organizations, across the globe.
[01:11.870 --> 01:14.870]  So, you know, there's been a lot of advancements in other kinds of messaging.
[01:14.870 --> 01:18.250]  We all use instant messengers for synchronous communication.
[01:18.770 --> 01:23.670]  And I think, you know, anyone who's kind of in, you know, the digital workforce is using Slack or Teams.
[01:23.930 --> 01:28.190]  That all works fine within teams and organizations.
[01:28.190 --> 01:33.110]  But when you think about messaging across organizations, it's still a really poor experience.
[01:35.270 --> 01:36.650]  It doesn't have to be like this.
[01:39.230 --> 01:46.350]  So, just to introduce ourselves, so that we have some background and we know what we're talking about.
[01:46.550 --> 02:04.250]  Just, we are builders, and I'm also the CEO of a Swiss email hosting company called Migado, which is kind of like a small or small indie company, but we host about 1 million email addresses globally.
[02:04.610 --> 02:11.190]  So, not so small, but we like to appear that way because we don't like to grow exponentially.
[02:11.470 --> 02:14.690]  We like to actually work hand-in-hand with people, so we learn from them.
[02:14.690 --> 02:16.490]  And we've been doing that for the past 10 years.
[02:17.830 --> 02:24.610]  And the reason why I initially jumped into this was because I wanted to learn everything about email.
[02:26.330 --> 02:32.730]  And it's very easy to judge something from, you know, bystander, as a bystander.
[02:32.810 --> 02:41.090]  But if you are the guy in the background actually dealing with all the nonsense that email represents, it's just, it's crazy.
[02:41.310 --> 02:42.570]  It's a crazy world out there.
[02:42.570 --> 02:53.630]  And I can say, just if, I don't know how many of you know how email works, but if you had the image what happens in the background, none of you would actually be using email.
[02:53.770 --> 02:54.850]  It's just crazy world.
[02:54.970 --> 02:55.570]  It's wild west.
[02:56.590 --> 03:04.950]  And we are, during the past 10 years, we've been observing all of this.
[03:05.110 --> 03:08.630]  And we just said something has to be done over this.
[03:08.630 --> 03:19.590]  And this is where William and I are coming together to actually bring a proposal and a little bit spark an imagination for everyone.
[03:19.590 --> 03:22.450]  What could be possible if we change email?
[03:25.670 --> 03:30.330]  So, rather than kind of just jumping straight into it, I really want to talk about the post office first.
[03:31.370 --> 03:33.790]  Everyone is familiar with how the post office works.
[03:33.890 --> 03:35.510]  It probably feels like second nature.
[03:35.510 --> 03:38.410]  And for most of us, it works well enough.
[03:38.730 --> 03:45.390]  But imagine you kind of wake up tomorrow and you need to send a package to someone across the country.
[03:45.890 --> 03:49.130]  But today, the experience looks a little bit different.
[03:50.010 --> 03:53.090]  So, today, you may go to the post office in this new world.
[03:53.490 --> 03:56.450]  You go to USPS, you go to UPS, you go to FedEx.
[03:57.790 --> 03:59.570]  Everyone agrees to ship your package.
[04:01.250 --> 04:04.650]  But FedEx perhaps doesn't guarantee that it will arrive.
[04:05.850 --> 04:07.630]  Their deliverability is just way too low.
[04:09.550 --> 04:25.510]  So, another example, you know, in an effort to kind of protect the person that's receiving your message from receiving anything dangerous, you know, the post office also decides to discard your message based on who's sending it.
[04:25.650 --> 04:29.610]  So, you know, in this world, everyone from HOPE, no one is able to send their messages, right?
[04:29.610 --> 04:34.970]  So, you know, this is all kind of based on, you know, a group getting blacklisted.
[04:35.910 --> 04:41.570]  Based on where you're from, based on any kind of, you know, markers that that post office decides on.
[04:42.830 --> 04:54.310]  And then to improve security of the messaging system, the post office also introduces some special programs where, you know, the postman decides to actually open your message and read every single letter that you're setting.
[04:54.810 --> 05:02.230]  So, you know, they'll end up deciding based on the content of the message, you know, if your receiver should receive it at the end of the day.
[05:02.390 --> 05:04.170]  But once you send it, it's out of your hands.
[05:05.690 --> 05:12.830]  And maybe lastly, just to ensure that the post office can keep up with all these new awful innovations.
[05:14.850 --> 05:19.310]  They've also decided to track every sender and every message without your consent.
[05:20.470 --> 05:24.790]  So, you know, you would never accept anything like this at the post office today.
[05:26.230 --> 05:30.290]  But we're accepting it in email every single time we send an email.
[05:31.650 --> 05:38.150]  And, you know, you think about the Internet and, you know, it's the place that's supposed to be more efficient, not less efficient.
[05:39.230 --> 05:46.610]  So, when email, you know, first kind of originated, you know, many, many decades ago, it was designed to mimic the post office.
[05:47.270 --> 05:48.330]  You have a sender.
[05:49.270 --> 05:51.530]  You have a post office that the sender goes to.
[05:52.150 --> 05:53.650]  You have a delivery service.
[05:54.270 --> 05:57.090]  You have a post office that the receiver goes to.
[05:57.350 --> 05:58.630]  And then you have your receiver.
[05:58.910 --> 06:01.370]  So, it's a one-way, it's a one-way send.
[06:01.550 --> 06:07.730]  And then once you send that parcel off, that message off, you as the sender don't have any control of what happens to it.
[06:07.730 --> 06:08.210]  It's gone.
[06:09.570 --> 06:16.950]  So you think about the digital realm on the Internet, the distance between these two people who are receiving messages is effectively zero.
[06:17.270 --> 06:24.950]  So we've built a system that mimics this span in time and space, but that's not the way it works on the Internet today.
[06:25.270 --> 06:30.270]  So there is no kind of modern way to send these messages.
[06:30.270 --> 06:33.410]  We're all kind of still constrained by these physical constraints.
[06:36.090 --> 06:37.710]  So, you know, email is awful.
[06:38.210 --> 06:40.510]  I think, like, you know, we all have this experience.
[06:41.010 --> 06:42.050]  It's a dumping ground.
[06:42.190 --> 06:44.270]  So like, you know, everyone's inboxes are a mess.
[06:45.130 --> 06:53.410]  The messages that you guys get in your inbox have things that you want, you know, things that you expect to get, but then you're also going to get spam, scams, phishing.
[06:53.610 --> 06:55.350]  It's all mixed in in one place.
[06:57.150 --> 07:02.970]  Still, most people, some people in this room even, you know, you may check your emails a hundred times a day.
[07:03.570 --> 07:09.890]  It's just such a waste of energy to kind of sift through what has substance and what does not have substance.
[07:11.810 --> 07:14.150]  But we still can't seem to quit it.
[07:14.290 --> 07:16.230]  It's part of our social fabric and our culture.
[07:16.370 --> 07:25.230]  And so, you know, when we have something that's so ingrained in how we go about our daily lives, how we think, how we talk, how we communicate, it starts to affect how we act.
[07:25.230 --> 07:30.570]  And then we just start to accept that status quo and we don't really think anything of it.
[07:32.670 --> 07:42.430]  So what if we were just to start over today, 50 years later, and just reimagine what this could look like, not based on a physical system, but on a digital system, the one that we kind of live in.
[07:43.250 --> 07:44.910]  And again, you know, just to kind of...
[07:44.910 --> 07:47.690]  We're still really just talking about these heterogeneous environments.
[07:47.690 --> 07:53.710]  You know, we're not trying to, you know, solve all types of messaging, you know, across the globe.
[07:53.890 --> 07:57.210]  You know, this isn't really... this idea isn't meant to be an email killer.
[07:57.730 --> 07:59.450]  You know, email still will serve a purpose.
[07:59.590 --> 08:00.510]  It's super convenient.
[08:01.450 --> 08:05.870]  But, you know, there could be a better way to send and receive certain kinds of messages.
[08:05.870 --> 08:12.650]  So, when Dayan and I think about modernizing email, it really has to kind of solve three big things.
[08:14.750 --> 08:18.630]  The first, email is a chaotic environment.
[08:18.830 --> 08:20.430]  You know, I think we've talked about this inbox, right?
[08:20.530 --> 08:21.590]  Anyone can reach it, right?
[08:21.610 --> 08:22.930]  This is the definition of spam.
[08:22.930 --> 08:28.870]  So, you have no say over what gets in and what gets out, and that results in super, super low signal.
[08:29.050 --> 08:31.510]  So, there is a chaotic problem that must be solved.
[08:32.670 --> 08:36.350]  Number two, there's just a fundamental lack of security.
[08:36.590 --> 08:42.630]  Every time you send a message, it gets sent by being copied multiple times, four or five times before it reaches the sender.
[08:43.250 --> 08:46.270]  So, there's no real true end-to-end encryption.
[08:46.550 --> 08:51.150]  You can't kind of mimic the same thing that happens in some of these instant messaging platforms.
[08:51.390 --> 08:52.530]  It just doesn't really exist.
[08:53.970 --> 08:58.830]  And then the last thing is, you know, your personal data is just...
[08:58.830 --> 09:00.410]  it's going to fundamentally be exposed.
[09:00.410 --> 09:07.310]  You know, these third parties, like you're basically going to an intermediary, a Google, Microsoft, or an Apple, most of us, not everybody.
[09:07.870 --> 09:10.710]  You know, and they own all of your data.
[09:10.850 --> 09:15.750]  They may encrypt it on their server, but again, it still needs to be copied whenever it gets relayed to the next place.
[09:15.770 --> 09:17.930]  So, you know, they decide what gets through.
[09:18.550 --> 09:20.390]  They run the black list, the white list.
[09:20.610 --> 09:24.850]  And they're the ones who kind of decide who has access to what gets spoken on the Internet.
[09:28.030 --> 09:31.930]  So, for example, you know, what could messaging look like?
[09:32.570 --> 09:35.510]  You know, I think Dana and I believe that this should really be a user-owned system.
[09:35.750 --> 09:39.310]  You know, you shouldn't have to go to ask for permission to speak on the Internet.
[09:40.190 --> 09:45.230]  You know, it should be surveillance-free where authors and readers are the only ones who are involved in this conversation.
[09:47.530 --> 09:49.950]  On security, you know, it's the same thing.
[09:50.070 --> 09:53.190]  You know, you should be the only one who you know who you're speaking, who you're talking to.
[09:53.910 --> 09:57.490]  And that message that you receive, you should believe that it's from a trusted party.
[09:57.730 --> 10:02.750]  And anyone in your address book, you know, you should know that you're receiving a message that you can trust.
[10:05.270 --> 10:06.710]  Spam shouldn't really be a thing.
[10:07.030 --> 10:08.550]  It should be a thing of the past, right?
[10:08.550 --> 10:10.910]  I mean, every spam message is like someone shouting at us.
[10:11.810 --> 10:15.710]  So, they can just... they can push in whatever they want always to our inbox.
[10:16.390 --> 10:28.190]  So, you know, if you start to think of all these things, you know, we're kind of held back by some of these protocols, again, 50 years old, that just impose some artificial limitations on how we can think about new opportunities in communicating.
[10:30.510 --> 10:32.030]  To kind of continue on this thread, right?
[10:32.090 --> 10:35.570]  It's like there should be public access for all people, not just who stays off the blacklist.
[10:35.870 --> 10:44.930]  The architecture should be simple enough and lightweight enough that it shouldn't take an arm and a leg, if you're an enterprise or a business, to set up and host and maintain your own email service.
[10:47.530 --> 10:49.970]  And here, I think Dan will talk a little bit more about this.
[10:50.110 --> 10:55.950]  You know, you should be able to go pick up your messages, the ones that you want, not the ones that anyone says you have to have.
[10:55.950 --> 11:00.230]  So there's an element of a push and a pull that doesn't really exist today.
[11:03.750 --> 11:08.090]  When we think about messaging, it's more than just messaging.
[11:08.490 --> 11:13.990]  You know, messaging is really just the transfer of information, you know, across the Internet.
[11:14.430 --> 11:19.090]  But when we're working with people, right, there's people involved.
[11:19.090 --> 11:25.690]  So we also have to think about the identities of the people that those messages are being transferred between.
[11:26.750 --> 11:35.130]  And then the third piece is, you know, connecting those people in a secure, safe, trustful way also has to consider authentication.
[11:35.170 --> 11:44.530]  So when we really think about rethinking what email could look like, what messaging could look like across heterogeneous environments, it's not just messaging.
[11:44.690 --> 11:47.390]  It's messaging, it's identity, and it is authentication.
[11:48.530 --> 11:50.270]  These are not, they're not three solutions.
[11:50.390 --> 11:51.110]  This is one solution.
[11:59.440 --> 12:03.980]  So, I guess everyone's wondering, okay, so what is it actually that you're presenting here?
[12:06.660 --> 12:11.360]  What, as William said, we were looking for some way to make things simpler, not more complicated.
[12:12.000 --> 12:17.600]  And again, I'm not sure how many of you know the RFCs of email, but they're just keep piling up.
[12:17.600 --> 12:22.580]  And the people that actually write them, they are mostly people from big tech.
[12:22.940 --> 12:27.580]  And they're not doing this because they want to help us and make us more secure.
[12:28.040 --> 12:32.720]  They're actually, email is their cash cow, and they are doing this to raise the barriers.
[12:32.920 --> 12:35.280]  We, as providers, at MIGA, do we know this.
[12:35.480 --> 12:40.300]  They're continuously raising the barriers to entry, so you, as a small provider, cannot compete with them.
[12:40.300 --> 12:46.660]  And this keeps happening, like, continuously without any actual security benefit for the end user.
[12:46.860 --> 12:50.280]  Of course, they're going to say, oh, because it's of this, it's going to be more secure.
[12:50.580 --> 12:51.660]  It's nonsense.
[12:53.300 --> 12:56.120]  So, we thought we need to start from scratch.
[12:56.120 --> 13:03.960]  We cannot propose a new RFC that's going to solve the underlying concept of email under which it's built.
[13:04.240 --> 13:09.580]  So, take, for example, spam, and take, on the other hand, the privacy.
[13:09.580 --> 13:13.120]  We all want to end spam, but we also want privacy.
[13:13.900 --> 13:16.240]  But those two things are contradictory.
[13:16.820 --> 13:21.320]  Because in the current system, if you want more privacy, you should not have spam filtering.
[13:21.860 --> 13:24.060]  So, the machines should not be reading your messages.
[13:24.420 --> 13:34.620]  And, on the other hand, if you want, you know, if you just want to innovate on top of it, you're going to find this roadblock because the underlying concept is so wrong.
[13:34.620 --> 13:38.080]  And that's, that's actually quite okay.
[13:38.440 --> 13:41.380]  If you think about it, email was not designed.
[13:41.740 --> 13:43.500]  It just, it was, it happened ad hoc.
[13:43.700 --> 13:46.320]  And it was, it's an amazing, it's really the killer app of the Internet.
[13:46.700 --> 13:50.680]  But no one actually thought about the insecure way we're living in today.
[13:50.880 --> 13:52.100]  It was made for the academics.
[13:52.280 --> 13:53.780]  It was made for closed environment.
[13:53.780 --> 13:56.700]  It was made in a place where everyone knew each other.
[13:57.340 --> 14:00.100]  So, but that world is not the world of today.
[14:00.260 --> 14:03.980]  We use email in really heterogeneous environments and we use it for everything.
[14:04.740 --> 14:07.180]  And again, just think about what is email.
[14:07.360 --> 14:08.820]  It's your digital identity.
[14:09.360 --> 14:11.780]  It's basically a place where you drop all your stuff.
[14:11.960 --> 14:17.920]  It's a place, it's your login for authentication for every kind of service that you're going to use on the Internet.
[14:18.220 --> 14:24.400]  You just can't have the business web, the commercial web of today without email.
[14:24.580 --> 14:25.080]  It doesn't exist.
[14:25.300 --> 14:29.760]  I mean, how are you going to get notified when, you know, where are you going to get your airplane tickets?
[14:29.760 --> 14:31.500]  I mean, how is that going to work?
[14:31.720 --> 14:34.500]  Which system are they going to send it on signal or WhatsApp?
[14:35.200 --> 14:36.540]  It's just that world doesn't work.
[14:36.660 --> 14:37.740]  It doesn't work that way.
[14:37.900 --> 14:41.840]  We need something that binds all of these systems together.
[14:42.340 --> 14:48.980]  So, that leads us to the protocol that underpins the email, just simply has to change.
[14:49.140 --> 14:50.440]  We have to start from scratch.
[14:50.720 --> 14:58.700]  That doesn't mean that we have to end email as is, but just we need also side channel, which is for trusted communication.
[14:58.700 --> 15:03.420]  Email should always remain as the postal service should remain.
[15:03.760 --> 15:10.740]  But it needs to be repurposed, just as we repurposed SMS when instant messaging became, you know, generally available.
[15:11.260 --> 15:14.760]  So, that leads us to our proposal.
[15:15.200 --> 15:18.260]  We wrote this protocol called mail over HTTPS.
[15:19.540 --> 15:26.680]  It's... the idea is that it's a pool protocol, so you don't push a message to the end, to the recipient.
[15:26.680 --> 15:29.060]  And we're not the first one to propose this.
[15:29.600 --> 15:36.840]  Bernstein proposed this in his Internet Mail 2000, but it was never implemented and it was marginally just... it was just a concept.
[15:37.340 --> 15:42.940]  So, we're going ahead and we're like working on top of those ideas and a lot of changes have been happening in the meantime.
[15:43.220 --> 15:48.060]  And we didn't want to build around SMTP either, because that's just nonsense.
[15:48.060 --> 15:55.140]  I mean, SMTP and IMAP and POP3 come from an era when we had big mainframes and we had dumb terminals.
[15:55.400 --> 16:00.340]  So, we needed those stateful protocols to communicate with the mainframe.
[16:00.560 --> 16:08.560]  But today, our devices, I mean, that we use in our pockets are more powerful than the servers that we are actually serving users to get...
[16:08.560 --> 16:09.700]  that we're using for serving.
[16:09.700 --> 16:12.220]  So, we've got a mainframe in our pocket.
[16:12.440 --> 16:14.540]  What's the purpose of using still the same protocols?
[16:15.740 --> 16:24.560]  And we were thinking a lot about this and we said, okay, this has to be a very simple and lightweight protocol.
[16:24.760 --> 16:26.780]  It cannot be something complicated.
[16:26.980 --> 16:32.700]  It should be... everyone should feel empowered that in a single weekend can build a new email client or email server.
[16:32.700 --> 16:36.760]  I mean, just try doing that with SMTP or IMAP.
[16:36.960 --> 16:43.500]  I can just tell you that the SMTP, like, the most popular SMTP server, which is PostFix, has about 2 million lines of code.
[16:44.020 --> 16:48.340]  DoveCode has about... which is the IMAP server, has about 4 million lines of code.
[16:48.480 --> 16:50.620]  And they are just... they keep growing.
[16:50.820 --> 16:54.740]  As the RFCs just keep, you know, reinventing new RFCs and so on.
[16:55.600 --> 16:57.840]  It has to be much, much more lightweight.
[16:59.560 --> 17:02.040]  And finally, it has to be end-to-end encrypted.
[17:03.880 --> 17:12.800]  Before I just continue, I want you to get one idea out of your head, which might seem so obvious.
[17:13.420 --> 17:20.160]  But, you know, we have this concept of pushing a message, which William was saying before, in the postal system.
[17:20.560 --> 17:24.120]  But that's a thing of the past.
[17:24.200 --> 17:27.100]  That's based on the physical limitations.
[17:27.100 --> 17:33.600]  On the Internet, the distance between us is always constant and it's always zero.
[17:34.020 --> 17:42.560]  So, you can reach someone in Japan or with the same effort as it takes to reach someone, you know, just in the neighborhood.
[17:44.080 --> 17:46.960]  This means that we also need a different way of thinking.
[17:47.180 --> 17:49.440]  What does it mean today to send a message?
[17:49.440 --> 17:51.200]  Like, using the word send.
[17:51.400 --> 17:53.780]  I send a message to someone.
[17:53.960 --> 17:56.760]  That means I do something on to the recipient.
[17:57.300 --> 17:58.240]  That's not right.
[17:58.260 --> 17:59.060]  That's not democratic.
[17:59.400 --> 18:00.400]  And that's what...
[18:00.400 --> 18:02.440]  That concept brings us to spam.
[18:03.340 --> 18:08.940]  We should be thinking completely different, digital native, as a digital native system.
[18:09.160 --> 18:13.960]  I have a message and I share it with someone.
[18:14.260 --> 18:17.620]  It's their choice if they want to read it or not.
[18:18.440 --> 18:20.540]  That's what we do actually all the time.
[18:20.700 --> 18:21.740]  It's just so natural.
[18:21.780 --> 18:24.660]  Yet, messaging is stuck in a completely different era.
[18:24.660 --> 18:29.480]  We still think of sending a message as shipping physical bytes.
[18:29.880 --> 18:31.500]  That's just ridiculous today.
[18:32.960 --> 18:38.960]  And we definitely don't have anything against the addressing space of email.
[18:39.120 --> 18:40.080]  That's wonderful.
[18:40.280 --> 18:41.460]  I mean, we love this sign.
[18:41.760 --> 18:46.940]  And it's so intuitive and everyone knows, even my grandma knows what this means.
[18:47.860 --> 18:52.960]  I don't think we need new addressing space unless you've read the RFC of email addresses.
[18:52.960 --> 18:59.540]  That definitely has to change because that RFC is full of nonsense, of obsolete stuff.
[18:59.820 --> 19:06.280]  And it could be reduced to probably one tenth of its size based on actual usage today.
[19:06.520 --> 19:14.440]  But we still think that we should keep the address space and we should be able to have a new system that runs in parallel to the old system.
[19:14.500 --> 19:18.380]  So we don't have to give up of old email in order to use something new.
[19:19.460 --> 19:23.160]  And we want everyone to know that this is...
[19:23.160 --> 19:26.700]  However, even though we're using the same addressing space, we're not...
[19:26.700 --> 19:28.920]  This is not the SMTP-based email.
[19:29.600 --> 19:31.960]  This is a completely new way of messaging.
[19:34.000 --> 19:36.080]  And again, just think about it.
[19:36.300 --> 19:41.040]  When I just said before, we're talking here about pulling a message.
[19:41.040 --> 19:43.480]  What does that actually look like in the physical world?
[19:45.240 --> 19:51.360]  You just go directly to the sender, to the outer of the message and say, Hey, I've heard you had a message for me.
[19:51.600 --> 19:53.600]  And you just go and get it directly from them.
[19:54.320 --> 19:55.900]  That's self-authenticating.
[19:56.060 --> 20:01.520]  And we have been dealing with authentication on the Internet for the past 30 years and we still are unable to solve it.
[20:01.740 --> 20:08.100]  Unless you have someone technical that will actually read the headers of the email and determine if it's for real or not.
[20:08.340 --> 20:15.680]  Even Google has fallen for phishing and for authenticity hacks.
[20:15.680 --> 20:24.840]  But how obvious it is that if, you know, if you receive in the physical mail, just consider it like another example from the real world.
[20:25.420 --> 20:31.640]  If you receive a fine in your postal mail and...
[20:32.480 --> 20:45.680]  I'm not sure how often it happens in the United States, but in Switzerland it happens quite often, where you would get a fake invoice or a fake fine and you would just pay for it without actually determining the authenticity of the letter.
[20:46.760 --> 20:49.520]  So, what's the first thing that an intelligent person will do?
[20:49.640 --> 20:54.520]  He will go directly to the police station and he will say, I have this fine.
[20:54.520 --> 20:55.700]  I don't understand what is it for.
[20:55.880 --> 20:56.840]  Why should I pay this?
[20:57.360 --> 20:59.260]  And you will determine the authenticity of it.
[20:59.360 --> 21:00.920]  So, you go directly to the source.
[21:01.280 --> 21:02.900]  That's self-authentication.
[21:03.780 --> 21:04.740]  It's so obvious.
[21:05.120 --> 21:06.600]  Now, just think about it.
[21:06.880 --> 21:07.720]  What actually...
[21:07.720 --> 21:13.260]  Let's just go back and think about in a very, very simple way how currently email works.
[21:13.460 --> 21:14.640]  You have the sender.
[21:15.040 --> 21:20.160]  You hand off your message to your email provider.
[21:20.780 --> 21:34.680]  Your email provider tries to deliver it to the receiving email provider, which then delivers the message to the local mailbox or the local storage server of the receiver, who will eventually pull it from there.
[21:34.680 --> 21:37.120]  So, as long as I...
[21:37.120 --> 21:41.180]  As soon as I push my message out, I've lost control of it.
[21:41.340 --> 21:41.760]  It's gone.
[21:42.100 --> 21:43.360]  It's just like fire and forget.
[21:44.640 --> 21:47.400]  Does that sound digital native to you today?
[21:49.060 --> 21:55.260]  And the receiver has no choice at all what comes into on the top of his inbox.
[21:55.680 --> 21:57.040]  That's basically...
[21:57.040 --> 21:57.940]  That's bullying.
[21:58.600 --> 22:05.760]  It's just we don't think of it that way because email became so much part of our culture that we don't even think about this.
[22:05.880 --> 22:08.620]  We just want to get our day done, get our work done.
[22:08.880 --> 22:10.900]  Let's go and get on with it.
[22:12.860 --> 22:15.520]  But since privacy is a lot...
[22:16.200 --> 22:21.100]  is a topic which is, I think, very dear to all of us here, just think about what happens here.
[22:21.860 --> 22:28.300]  Your provider has access to the full message and the receiving provider has access to the full message.
[22:28.300 --> 22:41.460]  Usually, there's at least four more nodes involved here or more if you are, of course, doing spam filtering, if you're doing backups, if you are, you know, fault tolerant.
[22:42.360 --> 22:43.400]  It's just...
[22:43.400 --> 22:44.260]  You will have...
[22:44.260 --> 22:47.900]  Your message will live on many places for a very long time.
[22:48.040 --> 22:51.460]  And, of course, now everyone's going to say, hey, ProtonMail solved this.
[22:51.580 --> 22:53.000]  Of course, ProtonMail solved this.
[22:53.140 --> 22:54.900]  Why don't we just stop using this?
[22:55.460 --> 22:56.780]  ProtonMail solved it for us.
[22:57.580 --> 22:58.640]  No, they didn't.
[22:59.140 --> 23:03.940]  PGP doesn't solve this or GPG doesn't solve this issue because the metadata still travels.
[23:04.100 --> 23:05.780]  Metadata is essential in email.
[23:05.960 --> 23:09.120]  So, it travels with your message all the time.
[23:09.960 --> 23:12.180]  And anyone can actually see it.
[23:12.520 --> 23:14.680]  Of course, they're going to say, oh, well, but we encrypted REST.
[23:15.700 --> 23:17.640]  Sure, you encrypt the REST, but you also keep the keys.
[23:17.640 --> 23:25.140]  So, as it happened with ProtonMail, the Swiss government, you know, they are...
[23:25.140 --> 23:33.800]  Switzerland pretends to be the most privacy-respecting country in the world, but that's just BS.
[23:35.080 --> 23:45.180]  If the police comes and asks the provider about handing over the data of a user, you're actually forbidden to talk about it.
[23:45.960 --> 23:50.440]  So, of course, you never hear Swiss companies talk about how much data they've given out.
[23:50.440 --> 24:11.500]  So, and if they want, even before, if you, if this were, just to come to the point, if the ProtonMail was this, before the message, the transit of the message between the providers, yes, it goes over TLS and the encrypted channels, but once the message gets into the server,
[24:11.540 --> 24:12.860]  it's always unencrypted.
[24:12.860 --> 24:15.820]  And just people don't realize these things.
[24:16.040 --> 24:21.860]  And there's a lot of smoke-and-mirrors privacy talk among email providers.
[24:22.780 --> 24:31.740]  Now, let's consider how POOL would actually look like and what MailHTTPS actually does.
[24:32.460 --> 24:34.100]  Obviously, we have Alice and Bob.
[24:34.780 --> 24:45.880]  And first and most important thing on which MailHTTPS is based, based on, is profiles.
[24:46.460 --> 24:49.120]  You know, email today doesn't have any profiles.
[24:49.500 --> 24:50.320]  You just have...
[24:50.320 --> 24:53.820]  And when I say profiles, I don't want you to think about profiling.
[24:53.840 --> 24:56.200]  I want you to think about keys distribution.
[24:56.920 --> 25:00.220]  I mean, that's such an essential problem.
[25:00.420 --> 25:14.200]  In order to encrypt in a heterogeneous environment and globally, we first have to solve the bigger problem, which is how do we distribute keys in the public keys in a simple and universal way globally.
[25:14.400 --> 25:16.260]  And that's a problem that still hasn't been solved.
[25:17.240 --> 25:20.660]  And we think that we should actually...
[25:20.660 --> 25:29.120]  With MailHTTPS, what we're proposing is based on your email address, that you can determine where your profile is, which contains the keys.
[25:29.380 --> 25:32.680]  Of course, in that profile, you can add also other stuff, but that's not the point here.
[25:32.680 --> 25:37.000]  So, the first part would be, let's first fetch that profile.
[25:37.180 --> 25:42.800]  And that profile should be hosted by your mail server or mail servers.
[25:43.400 --> 25:47.700]  I just don't want to call it mail servers, so we have another term.
[25:47.800 --> 25:48.740]  We just call it mail agents.
[25:50.200 --> 25:51.320]  Home mail agent.
[25:51.820 --> 25:56.420]  And so, Alice will go and fetch the profile of Bob.
[25:56.420 --> 26:00.280]  And we'll, of course, parse it and read it, read the keys.
[26:00.760 --> 26:07.780]  Then, Alice, who has a message for Bob, will simply encrypt the message with the keys.
[26:08.440 --> 26:10.960]  And, of course, I'm simplifying here a lot.
[26:11.360 --> 26:16.720]  But it will encrypt the message and upload it to own home mail agent.
[26:18.320 --> 26:23.040]  Then, it will notify Bob, hey, there's a new message for you.
[26:23.040 --> 26:27.720]  So, this is to be considered insecure, this one.
[26:27.960 --> 26:33.740]  But it preserves the privacy of both parts, which we can come to later.
[26:34.420 --> 26:38.740]  And then, Bob will fetch that notification and verify if it's authentic.
[26:39.240 --> 26:48.520]  Once it has received the notifications, it will determine that it's authentic.
[26:48.520 --> 26:58.500]  It will proceed and actually contact directly Alice's mail agent and retrieve the message directly onto the device.
[26:58.800 --> 27:04.080]  Notice that it doesn't pass through Bob's mail agent.
[27:04.240 --> 27:06.560]  It doesn't go through Bob's infrastructure.
[27:06.920 --> 27:09.480]  You're actually pulling the message directly onto your device.
[27:09.700 --> 27:10.940]  Local first messaging.
[27:12.420 --> 27:15.840]  And how does that actually work in practice?
[27:16.920 --> 27:19.600]  So, I said mail over HTTPS.
[27:19.600 --> 27:24.240]  And I said before that we should think about messaging as sharing.
[27:24.500 --> 27:29.160]  Well, what's the best protocol we have online that exists already for sharing resources?
[27:29.460 --> 27:30.160]  It's HTTPS.
[27:31.200 --> 27:34.320]  It's HTTP, but, of course, HTTPS today.
[27:34.320 --> 27:40.920]  So, if I want to share a message with you, there's no better protocol than that.
[27:41.240 --> 27:43.840]  I'm just going to allow you that you download.
[27:44.000 --> 27:48.360]  And this is so trivial, but it's so empowering.
[27:48.780 --> 27:52.440]  I can actually send you a gigabyte of a message if I want to.
[27:52.660 --> 27:55.480]  I'm not limited by the receiver.
[27:55.480 --> 27:59.100]  I can be only limited by my own provider.
[27:59.380 --> 28:01.100]  But I can change my own provider.
[28:01.400 --> 28:03.900]  So, you don't have to, you know...
[28:04.380 --> 28:08.980]  You don't have to chunk that PDF in several messages and send it when you're sending it to someone anymore.
[28:09.320 --> 28:11.320]  Or those photos.
[28:11.600 --> 28:13.400]  You can just send it all together.
[28:14.340 --> 28:16.140]  Now, how does that actually...
[28:17.720 --> 28:19.880]  How does that actually work in the end?
[28:19.960 --> 28:21.320]  What the benefits are of it?
[28:21.420 --> 28:24.340]  So, chaos that William was talking about, it becomes order.
[28:25.100 --> 28:25.700]  How?
[28:26.140 --> 28:29.840]  Access to your inbox is based on your approval.
[28:30.240 --> 28:31.720]  It's not open to the world.
[28:31.880 --> 28:34.400]  Anyone can just come in and drop things into your inbox.
[28:35.460 --> 28:36.480]  Then, insecurity.
[28:37.040 --> 28:39.600]  We have end-to-end encryption, which is easy.
[28:39.700 --> 28:42.140]  We have easy keys distribution.
[28:42.780 --> 28:45.560]  And messages travel encrypted without intermediaries.
[28:46.960 --> 28:49.240]  And exposure becomes privacy.
[28:49.860 --> 28:52.820]  No one can push your message pretending to be someone else.
[28:52.820 --> 28:58.600]  Now, I want to go back to this and say, when...
[29:02.640 --> 29:05.060]  Since we are using here...
[29:06.640 --> 29:08.280]  This part might actually be...
[29:08.280 --> 29:10.740]  Some people might jump and say, hey, this is...
[29:10.740 --> 29:13.340]  This is actually still sending like an SMTP.
[29:14.280 --> 29:16.260]  This is just considered like a web ping.
[29:16.260 --> 29:20.480]  I'm just making a call and saying like, hey, there could be a message for you.
[29:20.660 --> 29:24.200]  But then someone could say, but wait, but then you're going to say who it is from and so on.
[29:24.240 --> 29:25.320]  You're exposing still metadata.
[29:26.360 --> 29:29.760]  We have this kind of cool concept, which we came up with.
[29:29.760 --> 29:31.620]  What we create...
[29:31.620 --> 29:39.420]  When we are connecting Alice and Bob, Alice and Bob are kind of pairing.
[29:39.860 --> 29:43.880]  They pair as... as you would pair two Bluetooth devices.
[29:45.060 --> 29:47.480]  So... and that... they create a link.
[29:47.600 --> 29:51.220]  And that link is based on their email addresses, a hash of their email addresses.
[29:51.220 --> 29:52.640]  So it's common to both of them.
[29:53.400 --> 29:53.960]  And...
[29:54.560 --> 29:56.960]  They don't ever expose...
[29:56.960 --> 29:57.960]  To...
[29:57.960 --> 29:59.340]  Mail agents...
[29:59.340 --> 30:00.100]  The other side.
[30:00.300 --> 30:01.740]  They just use the link.
[30:02.540 --> 30:03.100]  And...
[30:03.100 --> 30:04.500]  The mail providers...
[30:04.500 --> 30:06.060]  Have no clue...
[30:06.060 --> 30:07.220]  To whom you're talking to.
[30:07.460 --> 30:08.480]  They just know...
[30:08.480 --> 30:11.420]  Their own user is connecting and disconnecting.
[30:11.600 --> 30:13.000]  Who they're talking to...
[30:13.000 --> 30:14.240]  And what they're doing...
[30:14.240 --> 30:15.320]  They have no clue of it.
[30:15.740 --> 30:18.220]  All the metadata remains end-to-end encrypted.
[30:21.320 --> 30:21.960]  So...
[30:21.960 --> 30:23.480]  But why does it all matter?
[30:23.940 --> 30:25.100]  Of course...
[30:25.100 --> 30:27.060]  Who's gonna give up their...
[30:27.060 --> 30:28.040]  Beloved email?
[30:30.660 --> 30:32.080]  As I said before...
[30:32.080 --> 30:34.980]  Email underpins the Internet of today.
[30:35.440 --> 30:37.540]  Just imagine the user experience we could build...
[30:37.540 --> 30:39.420]  If we change the way how we communicate.
[30:40.240 --> 30:42.020]  We could...
[30:42.020 --> 30:45.460]  Just imagine the interactivity between us...
[30:45.900 --> 30:47.860]  Which is driven by these old protocols.
[30:48.520 --> 30:48.940]  Hey...
[30:48.940 --> 30:49.740]  I'm just gonna send you an email.
[30:49.940 --> 30:50.360]  Hey...
[30:50.360 --> 30:50.960]  Oh no...
[30:50.960 --> 30:51.520]  I forgot...
[30:51.520 --> 30:52.420]  I've sent the email...
[30:52.420 --> 30:52.800]  And I can't...
[30:52.800 --> 30:53.440]  What can I do?
[30:53.540 --> 30:54.140]  It was wrong.
[30:54.540 --> 30:55.900]  There's no undo...
[30:55.900 --> 30:56.760]  In email...
[30:56.760 --> 30:57.240]  Even though...
[30:57.240 --> 30:58.480]  Gmail tries to fake it...
[30:58.480 --> 30:59.280]  And all those platforms...
[30:59.280 --> 31:00.140]  Try to delay the...
[31:00.140 --> 31:01.960]  Delivering of the messages...
[31:01.960 --> 31:02.400]  But...
[31:02.400 --> 31:03.320]  Shouldn't it be like...
[31:03.320 --> 31:04.100]  Built-in...
[31:04.100 --> 31:05.240]  Revoking of the message?
[31:05.920 --> 31:06.340]  Or...
[31:06.340 --> 31:07.420]  Updating the message?
[31:08.420 --> 31:08.840]  Or...
[31:08.840 --> 31:11.860]  You know...
[31:17.860 --> 31:19.740]  STML has no place in email...
[31:19.740 --> 31:20.300]  Just...
[31:20.300 --> 31:20.980]  To go...
[31:20.980 --> 31:22.160]  And say that...
[31:22.160 --> 31:22.640]  But...
[31:22.640 --> 31:23.620]  There's...
[31:23.620 --> 31:24.920]  We could...
[31:24.920 --> 31:25.700]  In...
[31:25.700 --> 31:27.020]  Invent a completely new structure...
[31:27.680 --> 31:28.040]  Fiber...
[31:28.380 --> 31:28.780]  Of...
[31:28.780 --> 31:30.180]  The Internet...
[31:30.180 --> 31:30.460]  Uh...
[31:30.460 --> 31:31.540]  The social fiber...
[31:31.540 --> 31:32.820]  If we change email...
[31:32.820 --> 31:34.240]  Email is the mother...
[31:34.240 --> 31:35.740]  Of all social networks...
[31:35.740 --> 31:37.720]  Just many people don't realize that...
[31:37.720 --> 31:38.580]  Yeah...
[31:38.580 --> 31:39.380]  And...
[31:39.380 --> 31:39.780]  Just...
[31:39.780 --> 31:42.000]  I'll give a final example...
[31:42.000 --> 31:42.920]  About...
[31:42.920 --> 31:44.040]  Newsletters...
[31:44.040 --> 31:44.700]  We all...
[31:44.700 --> 31:45.860]  Receive those newsletters...
[31:46.480 --> 31:46.660]  You know...
[31:46.660 --> 31:47.240]  In the bucket...
[31:47.240 --> 31:48.840]  Which William was saying before...
[31:48.840 --> 31:50.580]  Where everything comes in the bucket...
[31:50.580 --> 31:50.880]  New...
[31:51.320 --> 31:51.740]  Uh...
[31:52.400 --> 31:53.000]  Notifications...
[31:53.000 --> 31:53.440]  Spam...
[31:53.440 --> 31:53.860]  Phishing...
[31:53.860 --> 31:54.480]  And all of it...
[31:54.480 --> 31:55.680]  And newsletters...
[31:55.680 --> 31:56.520]  And...
[31:56.520 --> 31:57.400]  And especially...
[31:57.400 --> 31:59.200]  A lot of newsletters...
[31:59.660 --> 31:59.960]  So...
[31:59.960 --> 32:01.420]  As someone who has...
[32:01.420 --> 32:02.740]  Been an email engineer...
[32:02.740 --> 32:04.220]  For about 15 years so far...
[32:04.220 --> 32:05.620]  I can tell you...
[32:05.620 --> 32:06.220]  Like...
[32:06.220 --> 32:07.560]  Sending newsletters...
[32:07.560 --> 32:08.940]  Is like the dark secret...
[32:08.940 --> 32:09.280]  Of the...
[32:09.280 --> 32:10.640]  Of the Internet...
[32:10.640 --> 32:11.640]  Yeah...
[32:11.640 --> 32:12.940]  It's so bad...
[32:12.940 --> 32:13.260]  It's like...
[32:13.260 --> 32:14.220]  You get no choice...
[32:14.220 --> 32:14.940]  Just think about it...
[32:14.940 --> 32:17.160]  If you wanna unsubscribe from a newsletter...
[32:17.160 --> 32:18.100]  You actually have to go...
[32:18.100 --> 32:19.300]  To the sender...
[32:19.300 --> 32:20.200]  And ask him...
[32:20.200 --> 32:20.820]  Hey...
[32:20.820 --> 32:21.880]  Please stop sending me...
[32:21.880 --> 32:22.940]  The unsubscribe button...
[32:23.820 --> 32:24.340]  Hey...
[32:24.340 --> 32:26.260]  Unsubscribing should be a local decision...
[32:26.260 --> 32:27.680]  That I control my email...
[32:27.680 --> 32:28.800]  I should decide...
[32:28.800 --> 32:29.980]  What I receive and not...
[32:30.700 --> 32:31.160]  And...
[32:31.160 --> 32:33.160]  Talking about newsletters...
[32:33.160 --> 32:35.280]  We also have one concept here...
[32:35.280 --> 32:35.580]  Which...
[32:35.580 --> 32:37.700]  We intentionally don't wanna talk about the application...
[32:37.700 --> 32:38.840]  We just wanna talk about the concept...
[32:38.840 --> 32:39.480]  But...
[32:39.980 --> 32:42.080]  If you wanted to send a newsletter...
[32:42.080 --> 32:43.000]  In this system...
[32:43.000 --> 32:43.860]  As a marketing company...
[32:44.620 --> 32:46.240]  Just imagine how smart that is...
[32:46.240 --> 32:47.040]  Instead of having...
[32:47.040 --> 32:47.720]  One email...
[32:47.720 --> 32:49.100]  Which you're gonna fire to...
[32:49.100 --> 32:50.040]  Millions of people...
[32:50.540 --> 32:51.840]  You just upload one message...
[32:52.480 --> 32:53.540]  To your home agent...
[32:53.540 --> 32:54.480]  And then you notify...
[32:54.480 --> 32:55.220]  All those people...
[32:55.220 --> 32:56.680]  That wanna hear from you...
[32:56.680 --> 32:57.460]  Or you don't even have...
[32:57.460 --> 32:58.860]  Notify them actually...
[32:58.860 --> 32:59.400]  But...
[32:59.400 --> 33:00.220]  They can just come...
[33:00.220 --> 33:01.240]  And pick up the message...
[33:01.240 --> 33:02.840]  Directly by their agent...
[33:02.840 --> 33:03.780]  Their client...
[33:03.780 --> 33:05.640]  Will be picking up the messages...
[33:05.640 --> 33:07.940]  Just whenever they are available...
[33:07.940 --> 33:09.400]  That's the true...
[33:09.400 --> 33:11.660]  Permission-based marketing...
[33:12.460 --> 33:13.080]  So...
[33:13.080 --> 33:14.780]  We think that...
[33:14.780 --> 33:15.460]  By...
[33:16.780 --> 33:17.400]  Changing...
[33:17.400 --> 33:17.710]  Email...
[33:18.440 --> 33:19.400]  We can change...
[33:19.400 --> 33:19.540]  Actually...
[33:19.540 --> 33:20.200]  The Internet...
[33:20.200 --> 33:20.820]  We can change...
[33:20.820 --> 33:22.300]  Social networking...
[33:22.300 --> 33:22.840]  And...
[33:22.840 --> 33:24.280]  If you're interested...
[33:24.280 --> 33:25.500]  You can actually visit...
[33:25.500 --> 33:25.940]  We have...
[33:25.940 --> 33:26.860]  We are still not...
[33:26.860 --> 33:27.960]  For our prime time...
[33:27.960 --> 33:28.220]  But...
[33:28.220 --> 33:30.100]  This is an open protocol...
[33:30.100 --> 33:31.020]  This is...
[33:31.020 --> 33:32.240]  Everything is on...
[33:32.240 --> 33:33.100]  GitHub...
[33:33.100 --> 33:33.560]  And...
[33:33.560 --> 33:34.660]  We have clients...
[33:34.660 --> 33:35.340]  For...
[33:35.340 --> 33:36.300]  All platforms...
[33:36.300 --> 33:36.860]  Almost...
[33:36.860 --> 33:37.640]  Including Linux...
[33:37.640 --> 33:38.000]  Obviously...
[33:38.000 --> 33:38.140]  And...
[33:39.660 --> 33:40.220]  But...
[33:40.220 --> 33:42.000]  We're still working on it...
[33:42.000 --> 33:43.600]  We're still in early phases...
[33:43.600 --> 33:43.980]  But...
[33:43.980 --> 33:44.880]  We would love...
[33:44.880 --> 33:45.460]  Input...
[33:45.460 --> 33:46.500]  From your side...
[33:47.280 --> 33:48.740]  If someone is interested...
[33:48.740 --> 33:49.260]  To tell us...
[33:49.260 --> 33:50.960]  How we can make things better...
[33:51.620 --> 33:52.180]  And...
[33:52.180 --> 33:52.360]  Eventually...
[33:52.360 --> 33:52.700]  Make an...
[33:52.700 --> 33:54.600]  RFC out of it...
[33:54.600 --> 33:56.240]  Thank you very much...
[34:09.720 --> 34:10.940]  Thank you very much...
[34:10.940 --> 34:12.120]  Oh...
[34:12.120 --> 34:12.780]  Thank you very much...
[34:12.780 --> 34:13.160]  Friends...
[34:13.980 --> 34:14.580]  So...
[34:14.580 --> 34:15.880]  As a reminder...
[34:15.880 --> 34:16.740]  To our friends in Matrix...
[34:18.200 --> 34:18.800]  Please...
[34:18.800 --> 34:19.140]  At...
[34:19.140 --> 34:19.820]  Tag Man Chicken...
[34:19.820 --> 34:20.820]  So that I can see your question...
[34:21.600 --> 34:23.300]  I have two mics...
[34:23.300 --> 34:24.020]  Set up here...
[34:24.020 --> 34:24.380]  Or...
[34:24.380 --> 34:25.560]  We have two mics...
[34:25.560 --> 34:26.180]  Set up here...
[34:26.640 --> 34:26.940]  Please...
[34:26.940 --> 34:28.320]  Come in an orderly manner...
[34:28.320 --> 34:29.460]  And I will intersperse...
[34:29.460 --> 34:30.580]  Questions from Matrix...
[34:30.580 --> 34:31.120]  And...
[34:31.120 --> 34:31.780]  Questions from humans...
[34:31.780 --> 34:34.120]  In the audience...
[34:37.980 --> 34:38.580]  Hello...
[34:38.580 --> 34:38.880]  So...
[34:39.380 --> 34:39.980]  I guess...
[34:39.980 --> 34:40.560]  One of the things...
[34:40.560 --> 34:41.220]  That unfortunately...
[34:42.560 --> 34:42.880]  Is...
[34:42.880 --> 34:43.600]  You know...
[34:43.600 --> 34:44.360]  IMAP sucks...
[34:44.360 --> 34:45.720]  But it's where I keep my stuff...
[34:45.720 --> 34:46.940]  And I can get to it from my desktop...
[34:46.940 --> 34:48.160]  And get to it from my phone...
[34:48.160 --> 34:49.840]  If I go to somebody else's mail agent...
[34:50.320 --> 34:53.100]  And I bring that email to my phone...
[34:53.100 --> 34:53.900]  Is that it?
[34:54.020 --> 34:54.520]  Is it kind of...
[34:54.520 --> 34:55.340]  Are we back to pop?
[34:55.560 --> 34:56.720]  Where once it's downloaded...
[34:56.720 --> 34:56.960]  It's gone?
[34:57.740 --> 34:58.380]  Great question...
[34:58.380 --> 34:59.020]  Thank you...
[34:59.020 --> 34:59.460]  Uh...
[34:59.460 --> 34:59.760]  So...
[34:59.760 --> 35:02.100]  That was actually why IMAP was invented for...
[35:02.100 --> 35:03.020]  To sync between devices...
[35:03.760 --> 35:04.320]  And...
[35:04.320 --> 35:04.720]  Uh...
[35:04.720 --> 35:07.400]  We're solving the problem in a little bit different way...
[35:07.400 --> 35:08.480]  The mail agent...
[35:08.480 --> 35:10.460]  I'm just gonna go back...
[35:10.460 --> 35:11.500]  When...
[35:13.680 --> 35:15.380]  The mail agent...
[35:15.380 --> 35:16.220]  Uh...
[35:16.220 --> 35:17.540]  To which you uploaded the message...
[35:18.080 --> 35:20.520]  Will keep the encrypted message...
[35:20.520 --> 35:21.700]  For seven days...
[35:22.440 --> 35:23.780]  And during those seven days...
[35:24.220 --> 35:25.740]  Your devices can actually...
[35:25.740 --> 35:26.560]  They will...
[35:26.560 --> 35:27.700]  Retrieve again the notification...
[35:28.120 --> 35:28.920]  And sync to it...
[35:28.920 --> 35:30.920]  So you're actually syncing all the time...
[35:31.480 --> 35:31.940]  To...
[35:31.940 --> 35:34.340]  All your devices will sync...
[35:34.340 --> 35:35.280]  Identically...
[35:35.280 --> 35:36.080]  During those seven days...
[35:37.060 --> 35:38.780]  So it's a little bit different concept...
[35:38.780 --> 35:39.040]  But we...
[35:39.040 --> 35:40.540]  Instead of syncing to your local server...
[35:40.540 --> 35:41.160]  You're actually syncing...
[35:41.740 --> 35:42.680]  To the...
[35:42.680 --> 35:42.940]  Uh...
[35:42.940 --> 35:43.500]  Senders...
[35:43.500 --> 35:44.540]  To the outers...
[35:44.540 --> 35:45.520]  Agents...
[35:47.340 --> 35:47.860]  Alright...
[35:47.860 --> 35:49.280]  We have one question from...
[35:49.280 --> 35:50.220]  Matrix...
[35:50.220 --> 35:51.260]  Uh...
[35:51.260 --> 35:53.080]  There are about a hundred million...
[35:53.500 --> 35:54.320]  Email servers...
[35:54.320 --> 35:56.180]  And billions of email accounts...
[35:56.180 --> 35:58.160]  How would billions of personal...
[35:58.160 --> 35:59.940]  Open email servers...
[36:01.160 --> 36:01.720]  Sorry...
[36:01.720 --> 36:03.500]  It jumped on me...
[36:03.500 --> 36:05.480]  How would billions of personal...
[36:05.480 --> 36:07.420]  Open email servers...
[36:07.420 --> 36:08.460]  Would determine...
[36:08.460 --> 36:09.520]  Trust...
[36:09.520 --> 36:09.960]  Each...
[36:09.960 --> 36:11.220]  And let users determine...
[36:11.900 --> 36:13.220]  What is spam or fraud?
[36:15.320 --> 36:16.160]  I'm sorry...
[36:16.160 --> 36:16.880]  I didn't get that...
[36:16.880 --> 36:18.160]  I didn't hear the question...
[36:19.000 --> 36:19.420]  Yeah...
[36:20.160 --> 36:20.720]  I...
[36:23.270 --> 36:23.830]  Um...
[36:23.830 --> 36:24.230]  Alright...
[36:24.230 --> 36:24.870]  So I'm gonna read it...
[36:24.870 --> 36:25.870]  Word for word again...
[36:25.870 --> 36:26.850]  Very slowly...
[36:26.850 --> 36:27.930]  Because I'm having a hard time...
[36:27.930 --> 36:28.630]  Reading it myself...
[36:28.630 --> 36:29.810]  There is...
[36:29.810 --> 36:31.530]  About a hundred million...
[36:31.530 --> 36:32.860]  Email servers...
[36:33.290 --> 36:34.920]  And billions of email accounts...
[36:35.630 --> 36:36.470]  How would...
[36:36.470 --> 36:37.780]  Billions of personal...
[36:38.310 --> 36:39.890]  Open email servers...
[36:39.890 --> 36:40.850]  Would determine...
[36:40.850 --> 36:41.730]  Trust...
[36:41.730 --> 36:42.110]  Each...
[36:42.110 --> 36:44.070]  And let users determine...
[36:44.070 --> 36:45.410]  What is spam or fraud?
[36:47.330 --> 36:48.890]  They don't determine...
[36:48.890 --> 36:50.570]  What is spam or fraud...
[36:50.570 --> 36:52.630]  This system is...
[36:53.150 --> 36:54.710]  Is a bit different...
[36:54.710 --> 36:55.250]  Than that...
[36:55.250 --> 36:56.190]  We are actually...
[36:56.190 --> 36:58.350]  By creating those links...
[36:58.350 --> 36:59.330]  Which are your contacts...
[36:59.830 --> 37:02.270]  You're actually creating your network of trust...
[37:02.270 --> 37:04.090]  Everyone creates and vets...
[37:04.090 --> 37:05.250]  Their network of trust...
[37:06.190 --> 37:06.710]  So...
[37:06.710 --> 37:07.410]  And...
[37:07.410 --> 37:09.670]  We don't want to compete with email...
[37:09.670 --> 37:10.870]  We don't want to kill email...
[37:10.870 --> 37:11.650]  We don't want to...
[37:11.650 --> 37:12.390]  Say that...
[37:12.390 --> 37:13.530]  Those should migrate to this...
[37:13.530 --> 37:15.190]  We just want to repurpose email...
[37:15.190 --> 37:15.950]  We want to...
[37:15.950 --> 37:17.250]  We want to...
[37:17.250 --> 37:18.950]  Give new tools...
[37:18.950 --> 37:19.550]  So that...
[37:19.550 --> 37:20.530]  My lawyer...
[37:20.530 --> 37:21.250]  Or my notary...
[37:21.250 --> 37:22.590]  Doesn't have to send me...
[37:22.590 --> 37:22.730]  My...
[37:22.730 --> 37:23.550]  House...
[37:23.550 --> 37:24.870]  Purchase contract...
[37:24.870 --> 37:25.710]  Over Gmail...
[37:25.710 --> 37:27.110]  And share it with half of the world...
[37:27.110 --> 37:28.370]  And feed LLMs with it...
[37:29.010 --> 37:29.570]  And...
[37:29.570 --> 37:29.970]  So...
[37:29.970 --> 37:31.330]  I want my doctor...
[37:31.830 --> 37:33.350]  To be able to send me...
[37:33.350 --> 37:34.670]  In an open...
[37:34.670 --> 37:35.990]  An open way...
[37:35.990 --> 37:36.690]  My...
[37:36.690 --> 37:38.390]  Information about my health...
[37:38.390 --> 37:40.630]  Without exposing it to other parties...
[37:40.630 --> 37:41.350]  So...
[37:41.350 --> 37:42.010]  It's a...
[37:42.010 --> 37:42.510]  It's a bit...
[37:42.510 --> 37:43.190]  And the...
[37:43.190 --> 37:44.450]  Regarding the servers...
[37:44.450 --> 37:45.470]  The server...
[37:45.470 --> 37:46.710]  As I said before...
[37:46.710 --> 37:47.490]  PostFix...
[37:47.490 --> 37:48.570]  And DoveCod...
[37:48.570 --> 37:48.910]  Are...
[37:48.910 --> 37:49.930]  Together...
[37:49.930 --> 37:51.690]  About 6 million lines of code...
[37:51.690 --> 37:52.850]  While the open email...
[37:52.850 --> 37:54.510]  Is just a dumb web server...
[37:54.510 --> 37:54.950]  So...
[37:54.950 --> 37:55.710]  In the end...
[37:55.710 --> 37:56.190]  It's...
[37:56.190 --> 37:58.410]  About 1000 lines of code...
[37:59.570 --> 38:00.090]  And...
[38:00.090 --> 38:01.110]  Anyone can just...
[38:01.110 --> 38:02.350]  Write it over a weekend...
[38:02.350 --> 38:03.270]  And hack it over...
[38:03.270 --> 38:05.910]  It's just simple...
[38:07.690 --> 38:09.270]  Thank you for the talk...
[38:09.270 --> 38:10.110]  Um...
[38:10.110 --> 38:11.130]  So...
[38:11.130 --> 38:11.610]  It...
[38:11.610 --> 38:11.650]  It...
[38:11.650 --> 38:12.410]  It seems to me that...
[38:12.410 --> 38:13.350]  A lot of people don't...
[38:13.350 --> 38:14.410]  Like email...
[38:14.410 --> 38:15.350]  In part...
[38:15.350 --> 38:16.530]  For all the reasons...
[38:16.530 --> 38:17.570]  You've been discussing...
[38:17.570 --> 38:19.610]  But also for...
[38:19.610 --> 38:20.890]  Other reasons...
[38:20.890 --> 38:21.810]  That have to do with...
[38:21.810 --> 38:22.870]  Maybe like...
[38:22.870 --> 38:24.770]  Form factor...
[38:24.770 --> 38:25.710]  Or like...
[38:26.290 --> 38:26.850]  Coolness...
[38:26.850 --> 38:27.370]  Or...
[38:27.370 --> 38:28.590]  Something like that...
[38:28.590 --> 38:29.650]  I was reading a...
[38:29.650 --> 38:30.590]  A newsletter...
[38:30.590 --> 38:31.490]  Earlier today...
[38:31.490 --> 38:32.250]  And...
[38:32.250 --> 38:33.350]  Um...
[38:33.350 --> 38:33.630]  Uh...
[38:33.630 --> 38:34.930]  I can't validate this...
[38:34.930 --> 38:35.350]  But...
[38:35.350 --> 38:36.390]  One of the claims in it...
[38:36.390 --> 38:36.790]  It was...
[38:36.790 --> 38:37.870]  A little thing about...
[38:37.870 --> 38:38.610]  OpenAI...
[38:38.610 --> 38:39.430]  And how apparently...
[38:39.430 --> 38:40.050]  Internally...
[38:40.050 --> 38:40.850]  At the company...
[38:40.850 --> 38:42.330]  They don't use email at all...
[38:42.330 --> 38:42.970]  It's like...
[38:42.970 --> 38:43.830]  All Slack...
[38:43.830 --> 38:45.010]  And I've noticed...
[38:45.010 --> 38:45.730]  Personally...
[38:45.730 --> 38:47.010]  That Slack...
[38:47.010 --> 38:47.850]  Has also...
[38:47.850 --> 38:48.890]  And I think there are...
[38:48.890 --> 38:49.930]  Maybe other...
[38:49.930 --> 38:50.710]  Messengers...
[38:50.710 --> 38:51.430]  That are doing this...
[38:51.430 --> 38:52.730]  Incorporated certain...
[38:52.730 --> 38:54.470]  Email-like features...
[38:54.470 --> 38:55.850]  Like a draft...
[38:55.850 --> 38:57.110]  And send later...
[38:57.110 --> 38:57.790]  Sort of thing...
[38:57.790 --> 38:59.010]  Or whatever...
[38:59.010 --> 38:59.870]  Um...
[38:59.870 --> 39:00.150]  And...
[39:00.150 --> 39:01.270]  And I guess I'm just...
[39:01.270 --> 39:02.150]  A little confused...
[39:02.670 --> 39:04.330]  As to what the...
[39:05.470 --> 39:05.990]  Uh...
[39:05.990 --> 39:07.430]  Like the particular...
[39:07.430 --> 39:07.970]  Gain...
[39:07.970 --> 39:08.470]  Or like...
[39:08.470 --> 39:09.130]  Offer...
[39:09.130 --> 39:10.090]  Here is...
[39:10.090 --> 39:10.650]  Uh...
[39:10.650 --> 39:12.450]  And why you couldn't imagine...
[39:12.450 --> 39:13.290]  Like in my head...
[39:13.290 --> 39:14.230]  It sort of seems...
[39:14.230 --> 39:15.710]  To put it another way...
[39:16.470 --> 39:16.990]  Like...
[39:16.990 --> 39:18.310]  There's sort of like...
[39:18.310 --> 39:19.090]  A...
[39:19.670 --> 39:20.190]  Unified...
[39:20.190 --> 39:21.150]  Messenger...
[39:21.150 --> 39:21.450]  Right?
[39:21.710 --> 39:22.090]  Uh...
[39:22.090 --> 39:23.410]  And you don't need...
[39:23.410 --> 39:25.190]  A ton of different protocols...
[39:25.190 --> 39:26.590]  And whether you...
[39:27.190 --> 39:28.670]  Import email concepts...
[39:28.670 --> 39:29.510]  Into something like...
[39:29.510 --> 39:30.050]  Slack...
[39:30.050 --> 39:31.190]  Or vice versa...
[39:31.850 --> 39:32.450]  Uh...
[39:32.450 --> 39:33.770]  The goal is just...
[39:33.770 --> 39:34.650]  Doing...
[39:34.650 --> 39:35.450]  Messaging...
[39:35.450 --> 39:35.910]  So like...
[39:35.910 --> 39:37.190]  When you talk about...
[39:37.830 --> 39:38.230]  Like...
[39:38.230 --> 39:39.070]  What is the...
[39:39.070 --> 39:39.770]  When you say...
[39:39.770 --> 39:41.170]  You want to upgrade email...
[39:41.170 --> 39:41.590]  Like...
[39:41.590 --> 39:42.130]  What's...
[39:42.130 --> 39:43.010]  I'm still confused...
[39:43.010 --> 39:43.370]  On like...
[39:43.370 --> 39:44.710]  What the virtue...
[39:44.710 --> 39:45.670]  Of email...
[39:45.670 --> 39:46.550]  In particular...
[39:46.550 --> 39:47.450]  Is...
[39:48.930 --> 39:49.230]  Uh...
[39:49.230 --> 39:49.950]  So...
[39:49.950 --> 39:50.350]  Yeah...
[39:50.350 --> 39:50.490]  I mean...
[39:50.490 --> 39:51.030]  I think the...
[39:51.030 --> 39:52.170]  The Slack example...
[39:52.170 --> 39:52.310]  I mean...
[39:52.310 --> 39:53.190]  I mean...
[39:54.630 --> 39:55.630]  The difference here...
[39:55.630 --> 39:56.350]  Is really...
[39:56.350 --> 39:56.510]  The...
[39:56.510 --> 39:57.990]  The heterogeneous environments...
[39:57.990 --> 39:58.110]  Like...
[39:58.110 --> 39:59.350]  That's kind of the starting point...
[39:59.350 --> 39:59.610]  So...
[39:59.610 --> 40:00.850]  If you're using Slack...
[40:00.850 --> 40:01.150]  You know...
[40:01.150 --> 40:02.070]  You could connect...
[40:02.070 --> 40:02.910]  To another business...
[40:02.910 --> 40:03.350]  But...
[40:03.790 --> 40:04.190]  That's...
[40:04.190 --> 40:05.990]  It's still a really crappy experience...
[40:05.990 --> 40:06.490]  So...
[40:06.490 --> 40:06.830]  I mean...
[40:06.830 --> 40:07.430]  Think about like...
[40:07.430 --> 40:08.130]  You and I...
[40:08.130 --> 40:09.210]  Trying to message each other...
[40:09.210 --> 40:09.350]  Like...
[40:09.350 --> 40:10.250]  We would have to know...
[40:10.250 --> 40:11.730]  That both of us are on Slack...
[40:11.730 --> 40:12.590]  And then we would have to...
[40:12.590 --> 40:13.090]  Somehow...
[40:13.090 --> 40:17.130]  That whole experience is pretty clunky.
[40:17.330 --> 40:18.170]  It's pretty crappy.
[40:18.670 --> 40:22.570]  Email provides that global, universal system.
[40:22.710 --> 40:26.210]  This is really the kind of messaging that we're trying to rethink.
[40:27.490 --> 40:30.730]  This isn't meant to replace all kinds of messaging.
[40:30.990 --> 40:35.210]  There are, of course, use cases that are specialized for certain kinds of cases.
[40:36.830 --> 40:43.790]  I want to add there that we should first determine the nature of each message.
[40:44.030 --> 40:47.510]  You know, instant message and email, we still have them today.
[40:47.810 --> 40:50.190]  Slack was supposed to be the email killer.
[40:50.690 --> 40:52.010]  It didn't kill email.
[40:52.210 --> 40:54.710]  It just repurposed it in the inside of organizations.
[40:55.030 --> 40:59.730]  But instant messages are, their timing is, they're instant.
[40:59.890 --> 41:00.850]  They're about the real time.
[41:01.010 --> 41:02.890]  They're about, you know, very short-lived.
[41:03.450 --> 41:05.190]  Emails are living longer.
[41:06.490 --> 41:13.310]  Their duration is meant to be over maybe weeks, sometimes years, because we all keep our archives.
[41:14.070 --> 41:16.130]  And think of the, on the other side, there would be books.
[41:16.310 --> 41:17.910]  Books even go across millennials.
[41:18.350 --> 41:22.070]  So, it's all about different natures of communication that we have.
[41:22.270 --> 41:25.350]  And we will never have one replace the other.
[41:25.550 --> 41:27.470]  Like, instant messages are never going to replace books.
[41:28.030 --> 41:30.910]  And email is never going to replace instant messaging.
[41:31.030 --> 41:32.390]  And instant messaging will never replace email.
[41:32.390 --> 41:36.870]  They might just take some of that communication out, which could happen over the other medium.
[41:37.690 --> 41:40.730]  And I think that they will coexist.
[41:40.890 --> 41:42.950]  And also Slack is a very closed platform.
[41:42.950 --> 41:45.030]  So, it doesn't work across organizations.
[41:45.410 --> 41:55.350]  Our challenge here is how do we connect organizations and people across, you know, inter-organizational connections, not just inside.
[41:56.410 --> 41:57.170]  Thank you, though.
[41:58.630 --> 42:02.160]  Another question from Matrix.
[42:03.060 --> 42:08.560]  Do you imagine that many providers would be using the open email protocol?
[42:08.960 --> 42:11.960]  And would you manage the protocol?
[42:12.240 --> 42:15.320]  Or would you be providing messaging service?
[42:17.620 --> 42:18.960]  We don't know yet.
[42:19.260 --> 42:33.780]  At the moment, we are just really concerned about building the protocol, building the clients, building the servers, then having the first beta testers, the people that can help us actually refine this experience.
[42:33.780 --> 42:38.560]  Because we are still, to be honest, we are still also exploring what this could be.
[42:38.980 --> 42:45.700]  Because we are so ingrained in this email thinking, it's so difficult to shift away from it.
[42:47.040 --> 42:48.540]  Email, essentially, is a culture.
[42:48.700 --> 42:50.200]  We are fighting culture here.
[42:50.620 --> 42:56.580]  And what we will do, we don't want to have this as our, you know, like, closed protocol.
[42:56.720 --> 42:57.860]  We want to give this to the world.
[42:58.040 --> 43:01.620]  We want everyone to contribute to it, to make it simpler, not more complicated.
[43:05.410 --> 43:13.230]  So, in that case you mentioned earlier about, like, having multiple devices, a phone and a desktop, polling at the same, polling separately.
[43:14.170 --> 43:20.010]  You also mentioned that there are chances now that, like, ours can update the email.
[43:20.410 --> 43:25.750]  What are the chances that the phone pulls, the email is updated, and now the desktop pulls?
[43:25.750 --> 43:29.090]  Is there any significant alerting messaging?
[43:29.090 --> 43:34.930]  Is it versioned out there in order to know that it modified in that 7-day timeframe?
[43:35.250 --> 43:35.910]  Thank you.
[43:36.130 --> 43:38.410]  I knew someone was going to grab me for that.
[43:40.590 --> 43:46.410]  So, in email, generally, we like email because it's like a paper trail, so we don't like messages to be updated.
[43:46.670 --> 43:48.110]  And I can completely understand that.
[43:48.270 --> 43:57.550]  But in some cases, especially within, you know, in some business communication, it's kind of cool that you can fix your errors.
[43:57.550 --> 44:01.130]  And the way we are... this is something that should happen in the client.
[44:01.630 --> 44:04.650]  Protocols should be completely indifferent...
[44:04.650 --> 44:08.910]  Protocols should be simply ignoring, not knowing anything about what's happening inside of the message.
[44:09.450 --> 44:12.770]  The client determines how it's going to show this.
[44:12.910 --> 44:15.650]  Will it show it maybe as a diff, you know, as on a git?
[44:15.890 --> 44:17.390]  Like, showing it what was the change?
[44:17.910 --> 44:20.670]  Will it... we're still working on it.
[44:20.710 --> 44:24.090]  That's why we say we're so early, we're just still exploring what it could be.
[44:24.090 --> 44:28.590]  Just imagine like that, I forgot to send an attachment, oh, so I send another email.
[44:28.730 --> 44:31.170]  No, I can just change the message and add an attachment to it.
[44:31.190 --> 44:32.250]  It appears there to everyone.
[44:32.730 --> 44:33.990]  So, we're still working on it.
[44:34.630 --> 44:35.090]  Thank you.
[44:35.150 --> 44:35.690]  Good question there.
[44:35.810 --> 44:40.310]  The fact that you can even ask that question, I think, is like the exciting opportunity that we really like.
[44:40.430 --> 44:45.670]  I mean, this kind of just creates new opportunities to message more in a more flexible way.
[44:45.890 --> 44:57.790]  So, you know, whether it's, you know, changing messaging or, you know, creating some approval process, you know, between two messengers, I think it's really just kind of a blank slate for how we could message.
[44:59.370 --> 45:00.070]  All right.
[45:00.170 --> 45:01.750]  I have one question from online.
[45:01.970 --> 45:04.810]  What prevents us from doing this now?
[45:05.170 --> 45:09.010]  Couldn't Proton roll this out with Proton users instead of PGP?
[45:09.190 --> 45:09.550]  Thank you.
[45:14.040 --> 45:16.420]  I wish they could and I wish they would.
[45:17.220 --> 45:18.680]  Really, I wish they would.
[45:18.940 --> 45:20.760]  But I don't think they're...
[45:21.340 --> 45:22.660]  I don't think they will.
[45:23.820 --> 45:25.000]  Unfortunately, they're...
[45:26.440 --> 45:28.080]  I cannot speak for them.
[45:29.920 --> 45:41.900]  They're definitely in a position in which they could take a stand and do something for all of us instead of doing that smoke and mirrors stuff, like pretending to have fixed email instead of just coming up with marginal improvements.
[45:43.340 --> 45:45.680]  I really wish they were...
[45:45.680 --> 45:53.780]  The mail providers were more united in order to fix the problem it had instead of actually focused on their margins.
[45:53.780 --> 45:55.020]  So.
[45:58.180 --> 45:58.820]  Hello.
[45:59.120 --> 46:00.260]  This is thrilling.
[46:00.700 --> 46:03.420]  Give me a week to set up my relay, please.
[46:05.520 --> 46:06.780]  You had my mind racing.
[46:06.780 --> 46:17.520]  As soon as you begin to talk about gigabyte attachments, it makes you really think that, you know, HTTPS is maybe on version 3, I think.
[46:17.540 --> 46:20.700]  We have, like, addressable ranges.
[46:20.700 --> 46:21.880]  We have streaming.
[46:21.880 --> 46:24.080]  We have all...
[46:24.080 --> 46:28.680]  You know, this is a base layer that is much more solid to build on.
[46:29.100 --> 46:30.980]  So it can go any kinds of directions.
[46:32.220 --> 46:37.520]  The change editing thing, I've been really enamored by auto-merge.
[46:38.700 --> 46:40.540]  It's a CRDT implementation.
[46:41.460 --> 46:44.460]  It also has very nice encryption guarantees.
[46:45.680 --> 46:52.240]  But before I got up here, I was curious to hear, you think this may be applicable to doctor's offices, healthcare records.
[46:54.800 --> 46:56.040]  Who's next in line?
[46:56.180 --> 46:57.120]  Who's next in line?
[46:57.360 --> 46:59.940]  When does this become a Gmail experiment?
[47:00.320 --> 47:00.520]  You know?
[47:00.920 --> 47:01.340]  How...
[47:01.880 --> 47:06.840]  Is there a zero click upgrade path for my aunts and uncles?
[47:07.140 --> 47:10.090]  Or is there, you know, a...
[47:10.980 --> 47:14.700]  Do my aunts and uncles need to learn a thousand lines of JavaScript?
[47:16.100 --> 47:16.800]  Thank you.
[47:17.860 --> 47:18.920]  William, you want to answer that?
[47:19.480 --> 47:19.760]  Yeah.
[47:19.940 --> 47:31.660]  I mean, I think we think about kind of like the doctor office and like the lawyer and the lawyer's offices and perhaps banks, mostly just because of the fact that kind of that end-to-end encryption doesn't exist today.
[47:31.840 --> 47:40.240]  So if you're going to receive something like a medical record or a bank contract or a lawyer contract, we feel like that use case is, you know, pretty clear.
[47:40.860 --> 47:45.840]  And then, you know, I think we're also, you know, starting from, you know, very, very small, small early days today.
[47:45.860 --> 47:52.060]  So how do we kind of get that, that early network to use this is kind of one of the big things that we're thinking about.
[47:52.220 --> 47:58.360]  But, you know, I think for the individual use cases, I mean, Dana and I would love to use that just by ourselves.
[47:58.360 --> 48:02.840]  So it's more of just kind of a, it's more of an order of operations.
[48:03.060 --> 48:05.440]  I mean, we want to be able to kind of serve all these, all these different parties.
[48:05.600 --> 48:16.180]  But it's, it's like who is, who are going to be kind of like those, those early groups of users, not just like the early single user in just terms of growing this and get people to adopt it is kind of, kind of the idea.
[48:16.680 --> 48:32.540]  But we are not, we're mentioning like, okay, the end, that sounds like we're talking the enterprise speak, but we are actually looking at really like us, the people, we should be the ones that actually have the benefit because when we talk to the doctor's office,
[48:32.820 --> 48:34.400]  we should be protected.
[48:35.000 --> 48:39.080]  So we want all of us to be in it, not just them.
[48:39.380 --> 48:48.980]  And so we just, we're just excited of how many things we can innovate if we just forget the old ways.
[48:48.980 --> 48:51.400]  So we don't know where this can lead still.
[48:51.780 --> 48:53.160]  And we're just exploring.
[48:54.340 --> 48:56.740]  And that's why we still need help in the protocol.
[48:57.100 --> 49:00.420]  We were, we tried, it's just the first draft, which we made.
[49:00.880 --> 49:12.220]  It's a, but it's been, of course, it was, you know, it's a, it was two years till we made that protocol through a lot of trial and error and finding the right way.
[49:12.540 --> 49:16.020]  But we made it so that it's future proof.
[49:16.180 --> 49:17.900]  So it's not tied to any specific algorithm.
[49:17.900 --> 49:22.160]  So we're taking the best ideas off email, the good parts of email and dropping the bad parts.
[49:22.260 --> 49:25.000]  So it's still basically a decentralized system.
[49:26.040 --> 49:26.560]  All right.
[49:27.160 --> 49:27.660]  Thank you.
[49:28.080 --> 49:31.820]  If we could, I'm sorry, we're running short on time and we got a couple more questions.
[49:31.960 --> 49:34.600]  So if we, if we could go into lightning round mode, that would be amazing.
[49:34.600 --> 49:36.320]  I'm going to let my friend go here.
[49:36.440 --> 49:37.940]  And then I got one more question on matrix.
[49:39.220 --> 49:41.140]  So thank you for presenting this.
[49:41.360 --> 49:42.200]  It sounds intriguing.
[49:42.540 --> 49:51.240]  Um, I guess my biggest critique of it would be that you're taking like, you're, you're replacing some of the bad parts about email with some of the bad parts about web servers.
[49:51.240 --> 49:58.160]  And one of the things I'm thinking about is the potential for censorship and particularly the rise of totalitarian regimes across the globe, including here in America.
[49:58.880 --> 50:05.160]  I guess my question is like, how does this, how proof of the system is against potential censorship?
[50:05.160 --> 50:16.420]  Say I, you send me, I get an email, like a reporter gets sent an email to grab some sensitive information, but, but oopsie, all of a sudden the senders, you know, the sender gets raided.
[50:16.720 --> 50:18.480]  They have their email, they have their email server.
[50:18.700 --> 50:25.020]  And all of a sudden, yeah, we're going to delete that or just shut down everything, or maybe even just change it in some way.
[50:25.180 --> 50:26.000]  But they can't.
[50:26.720 --> 50:26.980]  Yeah.
[50:27.120 --> 50:29.460]  The keys are just the public keys on the server.
[50:29.560 --> 50:33.960]  Of course, the only, the only vulnerability that I see here is the key swap attack.
[50:33.960 --> 50:35.920]  So where they...
[50:35.920 --> 50:37.540]  Where they man in the middle of both parties.
[50:38.560 --> 50:38.780]  Right?
[50:40.600 --> 50:45.720]  But that's one of the, basically, we have some ideas on how to actually prevent this.
[50:46.160 --> 51:00.100]  But let's, I think the attack vector here, we have to like, we're not here talking about, you know, state sponsored, or like CIA or NSA looking at this.
[51:00.100 --> 51:05.160]  We're just trying to get a next step away from email, which is completely insecure.
[51:05.680 --> 51:08.360]  And then, let's go to the next level here first.
[51:08.780 --> 51:12.220]  We're not going to be able to fix everything so quickly.
[51:12.580 --> 51:13.320]  Of course not.
[51:13.320 --> 51:20.060]  But I'm, you're talking about the, you're talking about the situations like, okay, well, it's good that we, that we're able to mute, to change these messages.
[51:20.120 --> 51:27.500]  It's just the question is, how do you pretend, how do you guard against the possible downsides of those messages being changeable in that way?
[51:27.960 --> 51:29.880]  Like, yeah, theoretically, only the center can do it.
[51:30.000 --> 51:34.400]  But like, what if just some regime just shuts everything down and oops, now you've lost half your email.
[51:34.820 --> 51:36.760]  Like, that's the question I'm kind of curious about.
[51:37.040 --> 51:40.040]  I just don't understand how you, how you mean like, lost all your emails.
[51:40.260 --> 51:44.620]  The messages live for about seven days on the server.
[51:45.300 --> 51:47.580]  And, but when you pull them, they're on your device.
[51:47.960 --> 51:49.860]  So it's actually, everything's on your device.
[51:50.860 --> 52:00.920]  You can, now, something that you could never do before with regular email, it's your device that can decide to sync to some other service where you want to have a backup service somewhere, let's say, wherever storage you want to use.
[52:01.500 --> 52:03.680]  Your device decides where you want to send them.
[52:04.600 --> 52:04.740]  Okay.
[52:04.960 --> 52:06.980]  If you consider Gmail, they're all there.
[52:07.760 --> 52:08.200]  Tight.
[52:08.380 --> 52:09.700]  The relaying and the storage.
[52:10.720 --> 52:11.300]  All right.
[52:11.540 --> 52:11.820]  Thank you.
[52:13.340 --> 52:14.080]  Thank you, friends.
[52:14.300 --> 52:17.000]  Let's give our friends another hand.
[52:17.380 --> 52:17.980]  Thank you.