[00:02.070 --> 00:02.930]  Hey, everybody.
[00:03.090 --> 00:04.050]  My name is Aaron Hillis.
[00:04.230 --> 00:10.130]  I'm a film curator and very excited to be here presenting this.
[00:10.270 --> 00:15.930]  We're going to kind of treat this like an extended Q&A in pseudo-panel form.
[00:17.770 --> 00:25.510]  Johannes Grenzwertner, filmmaker extraordinaire, is feeling a little under the weather, so pardon his voice.
[00:26.270 --> 00:30.850]  Johannes, do you want to go ahead and just introduce yourself, and we'll go down the line.
[00:31.010 --> 00:32.470]  Is it just us three, or we got one more?
[00:32.550 --> 00:32.890]  There we go.
[00:36.360 --> 00:37.460]  Thank you so much.
[00:37.460 --> 00:40.180]  I've been practicing the whole day to get my voice back.
[00:41.780 --> 00:51.140]  The backstory is actually that I have this weird form of bronchitis since I'm a kid, but I haven't had it in 10 or 15 years.
[00:51.140 --> 00:56.900]  And on the way here, on the plane, eight hours of straight coughing.
[00:57.960 --> 01:04.380]  And at some point, I was hyperventilating from all the coughing, and I talked to my dead grandmother.
[01:05.100 --> 01:10.920]  And I have no idea about what, but maybe that's going into my next film.
[01:11.080 --> 01:11.380]  I don't know.
[01:12.200 --> 01:14.740]  So yeah, my name is Johannes Grenzwertner.
[01:14.940 --> 01:15.700]  I'm an artist.
[01:15.900 --> 01:16.480]  I'm a filmmaker.
[01:16.800 --> 01:18.080]  I do things like that.
[01:18.320 --> 01:23.180]  I kind of consider this the third part of a couple of films.
[01:23.420 --> 01:31.280]  The first one, Traceroute from 2016, then Glossary of Broken Dreams from 2018.
[01:31.280 --> 01:47.410]  And although they are not connected topically, I would say there are three films that in certain ways deal with nerd culture.
[01:47.910 --> 01:55.850]  And the problems of nerd culture and the benefits of nerd culture, which is quite obvious in this one here.
[01:55.850 --> 02:00.830]  And I am quite happy that we could have the U.S.
[02:00.990 --> 02:02.690]  premiere at HOPE Conference.
[02:03.090 --> 02:16.670]  Because one of my main protagonists, the anonymous hacker portrait by Angeline Morningstar.
[02:17.630 --> 02:19.210]  I met that person.
[02:19.230 --> 02:20.990]  I'm not giving away gender or anything.
[02:21.330 --> 02:26.570]  I met that person in 2012 here at HOPE Conference.
[02:26.970 --> 02:32.190]  That was probably right in one of those spots where the audio was glitching.
[02:32.670 --> 02:33.610]  So I'll repeat that.
[02:33.810 --> 02:41.270]  So to a certain degree, and I think it's very important what the anonymous hacker says for the documentary.
[02:42.790 --> 02:47.970]  And that originated here, like many, many years ago.
[02:48.150 --> 02:49.810]  And thank you for that.
[02:50.110 --> 02:50.150]  Yeah.
[02:53.530 --> 02:56.710]  So, my name is Jasmin Hagendorfer.
[02:56.950 --> 02:59.250]  I am from Austria too.
[02:59.890 --> 03:02.450]  The country of mass murder, as we heard today.
[03:03.850 --> 03:05.410]  And music, of course.
[03:06.090 --> 03:08.150]  So, well, what should I say?
[03:08.950 --> 03:11.890]  Yeah, I am the producer of this movie.
[03:12.210 --> 03:15.710]  And we spent a long, long time doing this together.
[03:16.170 --> 03:19.590]  We did a lot of script reading together, script forming.
[03:20.210 --> 03:22.730]  And yeah, it was a hell of a ride, I can say.
[03:23.690 --> 03:24.250]  Yeah.
[03:24.250 --> 03:28.030]  Because you would never say that in public.
[03:28.390 --> 03:29.910]  But I have to say it.
[03:30.010 --> 03:33.790]  She calls herself the chief abortionist.
[03:34.810 --> 03:36.150]  Yeah, let me tell you why.
[03:36.190 --> 03:37.050]  Yeah, why?
[03:37.230 --> 03:37.750]  Yeah, why?
[03:38.430 --> 03:48.010]  Because actually, my position would be that Johannes always wants to make movies that last, I think, 20 hours or something like that.
[03:48.010 --> 03:48.210]  Yeah.
[03:48.810 --> 03:50.330]  That's what he wants to do.
[03:50.450 --> 03:52.230]  And I'm the chief abortionist.
[03:52.270 --> 03:54.150]  And I always have to say to every...
[03:54.590 --> 03:55.530]  Kill the babies.
[03:55.870 --> 03:56.290]  Kill the babies.
[03:56.330 --> 03:57.430]  Kill them all the way.
[03:57.730 --> 04:01.770]  And to every story, every detail, I have to say, no, it's fucking too long.
[04:01.990 --> 04:03.010]  Please cut it out.
[04:03.490 --> 04:05.170]  This is, yeah, this is my position.
[04:05.430 --> 04:06.230]  So, yeah.
[04:07.410 --> 04:07.790]  Peter.
[04:09.350 --> 04:11.070]  Yes, I'm Peter Romine.
[04:12.010 --> 04:21.650]  And so, I live on the Navajo Nation in Crown Point, New Mexico, on campus at Navajo Technical University.
[04:21.650 --> 04:27.610]  And so, I'm ending my 10th year there.
[04:28.070 --> 04:41.410]  And so, I would say I got introduced to the maker idea in 2015.
[04:41.750 --> 04:46.770]  And so, I started to incorporate that into my engineering program.
[04:47.210 --> 04:51.710]  And so, I've been teaching my students to be makers.
[04:52.870 --> 05:01.370]  And so, you know, like I said in the movie, I talk about how the fact that I had one of my students worked as a nurse.
[05:01.550 --> 05:10.250]  And so, she knew that there were these problems that many Navajo needed medicine that needed to be refrigerated, but they didn't have electricity.
[05:10.250 --> 05:18.130]  And so, for her senior project, she designed a solar-powered medicine cooler.
[05:18.350 --> 05:21.230]  And so, that's what I'm talking about, you know, in the movie.
[05:21.950 --> 05:32.670]  And so, I guess you could say, it's, you know, the idea that a student can do something that's meaningful to people, her people, right?
[05:32.670 --> 05:33.710]  The people she knows.
[05:34.450 --> 05:38.810]  And how many students, you know, in the world actually do that, right?
[05:39.310 --> 05:45.330]  They're doing something, maybe thinking of some corporate need or, you know, something like that.
[05:45.430 --> 05:56.030]  But I think, and I think, like I said, with this movie, it really, I would say, expanded my mind on, you know, my students need to see this movie, right?
[05:57.190 --> 06:06.190]  And because I have students right now that are working on, you know, solutions to problems that Navajo have.
[06:06.510 --> 06:16.170]  Because a lot of Navajo children grow up, become asthmatic because of the poor air quality that's caused by the sandstorms.
[06:16.350 --> 06:19.350]  And then by the fact that there, many of them are...
[06:23.650 --> 06:30.170]  And so, so we actually have been part of a project called the Healthy Hogan Project.
[06:30.170 --> 06:33.330]  And so Hogan is the traditional Navajo home.
[06:33.510 --> 06:40.430]  But the idea, so we're using a box fan filter that was sort of developed for the California forest fires.
[06:40.650 --> 06:51.810]  And we're using that into a system and it's very effective at reducing and actually eliminating what's called the PM 2.5.
[06:53.670 --> 06:59.950]  That's particulate matter that's 2.5 microns or millimeters or something like that.
[07:00.230 --> 07:05.950]  But basically, it's small enough to where if it goes into your lungs, it goes through your...
[07:05.950 --> 07:07.310]  It's absorbed into your bloodstream.
[07:07.490 --> 07:14.170]  And so it causes severe, essentially respiratory and cardiovascular problems.
[07:14.170 --> 07:23.070]  And so, so it's that whole thing of empowering people to manage, take care of, take charge of their own problems.
[07:23.170 --> 07:34.750]  And that was really, I think, really voiced well at the end of the movie there with, you know, and to have a Navajo woman voicing that, right, is very powerful.
[07:34.750 --> 07:36.350]  So, thank you.
[07:38.630 --> 07:43.010]  So, we just need to find a box fan and we're going to take care of you by the end of the night here, Johannes.
[07:43.710 --> 07:47.330]  I want to continue to talk with you a little bit more about your work.
[07:47.430 --> 07:59.150]  Not only how did you get mixed up with these two, but how a gentleman from Alabama ended up, you know, making this groundbreaking work at Navajo Tech.
[08:00.670 --> 08:09.990]  Well, I would say, we're, we, Navajo Tech started out as a, essentially a career tech.
[08:10.630 --> 08:22.230]  And so it was producing, it was founded in 1979 to produce, educate basically, or train people to work as welders and construction workers to support the mines.
[08:22.930 --> 08:29.790]  And, and then, they slowly over time expanded that to, to become a college.
[08:29.790 --> 08:31.930]  So, so offering two-year degrees.
[08:32.290 --> 08:38.690]  And then, and then in 1980, 2012, we became a university.
[08:39.050 --> 08:44.830]  And so we're one of, we're actually the only tribal college that's actually a university.
[08:45.350 --> 08:51.750]  And so we actually, and so it's really my president, Elmer Guy is, was just a visionary.
[08:51.750 --> 08:59.250]  And he was like, he, he saw all these things that, that engineers can solve.
[08:59.490 --> 09:05.550]  And so he was really, he's been strongly behind, you know, supporting engineering programs.
[09:05.650 --> 09:12.490]  And so, and then, so back last August, we became the first tribal college to have a PhD program.
[09:12.710 --> 09:16.110]  So we have a PhD program in Diné leadership.
[09:16.110 --> 09:21.090]  You know, Diné is, is the, is the, is what the original name that the Navajo called themselves.
[09:21.850 --> 09:27.190]  And so, and then in January of this year, I started the master of science in electrical engineering.
[09:27.210 --> 09:31.990]  And it's the first ever, you know, graduate engineering program at a tribal college.
[09:32.470 --> 09:39.110]  And so, and so, and my students are, are, they're all Navajo, right?
[09:39.110 --> 09:39.970]  They're a hundred percent Navajo.
[09:40.690 --> 09:44.090]  And, and most of them, I guess pretty much all of them live on the Navajo Nation.
[09:44.450 --> 09:57.870]  And so, and so like I said, it's, it's, it's, and so now at the master's level, you know, you're, you're learning how to become, you know, sort of in charge of your own projects.
[09:58.090 --> 10:04.350]  And, and then at the PhD level, right, you become essentially the ability to, to be highly respected.
[10:04.350 --> 10:10.090]  And, and that's one of the things that, that Native Americans are very lowly respected.
[10:10.430 --> 10:13.070]  They're unrespected and they're disrespected.
[10:13.370 --> 10:25.410]  And so, and then they, they have a problem with, they have lack of confidence because, you know, they're just, they're just so, there are so many bad examples of, of, of, you know, of encounters.
[10:25.650 --> 10:33.270]  And so, but like I said, they, I, so I have, like I said, I have three students right now that are committed to become, becoming, being full-time students.
[10:33.570 --> 10:39.170]  And the goal is for them to graduate this time next year with a Master of Science in Electrical Engineering.
[10:39.750 --> 10:47.250]  And in the program, I intentionally break all the rules that, you know, white men made.
[10:48.090 --> 10:54.290]  And, and so, because there's so much under-representation.
[10:54.670 --> 10:56.330]  How do you, how do you change under-representation?
[10:57.170 --> 10:58.690]  You have to change the rules.
[10:58.890 --> 11:01.310]  It's the rules that make, that discriminate.
[11:01.710 --> 11:08.470]  And so I said, so, and then I discriminate, my rules breaking is actually to do things that should be done.
[11:08.710 --> 11:16.390]  So, my students have the option between, well, they're all learning, they, they take two courses on Indigenous Engineering.
[11:16.810 --> 11:25.730]  And that right there is, is a big, you know, separation of saying, how should engineers do things?
[11:25.730 --> 11:30.310]  Uh, they should consider, you know, society, the planet, right?
[11:30.430 --> 11:32.190]  Not just corporate profits.
[11:32.390 --> 11:41.390]  And so, and then, uh, there's also, uh, a requirement that they, they, uh, do, they have to do research in support of their masters.
[11:41.570 --> 11:47.910]  They can't just take the, uh, extra coursework because it's important for all my students to become writers.
[11:49.090 --> 11:54.550]  You know, because when you can publish your work, then your, your voice is unlimited.
[11:54.890 --> 11:58.870]  And, uh, and then you become an inspiration for other Indigenous people.
[11:59.010 --> 12:05.070]  And so I said, so no, it, and that's, so what's cool is I have, I have students that are, you know, coming out of high school.
[12:05.310 --> 12:12.350]  And I have, I have older students that are, you know, that basically, uh, didn't have access, you know, to, to education.
[12:12.850 --> 12:20.790]  And, uh, and so, so, and it's, it's good to have that diversity, uh, of, of ages and, and experiences.
[12:21.110 --> 12:29.230]  And so, but yeah, like I said, but yeah, it was, uh, I got, I showed up on campus in August of 2014.
[12:30.650 --> 12:33.210]  Uh, I had my first class in a couple of weeks.
[12:33.410 --> 12:41.230]  And it was just one of those things where I'm like, how in the hell is it that they don't have engineering?
[12:41.830 --> 12:43.790]  And, uh, I mean, they're very smart.
[12:44.050 --> 12:45.770]  I had, all my students are very smart.
[12:46.050 --> 12:47.310]  They're, they're hardworking.
[12:47.310 --> 12:55.530]  And what was really, uh, amazing was they would come up to me after class and be like, thank you for, you know, lecture.
[12:56.150 --> 13:03.230]  And, uh, and then when I was getting ready to go for Thanksgiving holiday, they came up and said, are you coming back?
[13:05.690 --> 13:14.150]  Because from the first grade, they grow up where they see a teacher, this teacher may be real good, but they don't come back.
[13:14.550 --> 13:22.350]  Uh, because, you know, they're, they're essentially not, uh, I guess they're not able to sort of live, say, in comfort on the Novo nation.
[13:22.990 --> 13:25.150]  And so, uh, so I said, hell yeah, I'm coming back.
[13:25.410 --> 13:30.350]  And, uh, and, and I would say, I just kept making, they kept asking me those kinds of questions and I kept making promises.
[13:30.810 --> 13:41.090]  And then it's just that thing of, uh, I would say they adopted me, you know, they, they got me connected to their families and all these kinds of things that were extremely strict.
[13:41.450 --> 13:47.010]  If they, if they knew how effective that was going to be, uh, but, but it just, it's totally worked.
[13:47.050 --> 13:50.610]  And so I said, so yeah, I have this, um, I have two families.
[13:50.610 --> 13:53.590]  I have my Alabama family and I have my, my Navajo family.
[13:54.030 --> 14:01.870]  And, uh, and it's that thing of, um, you know, it, it's the impact, right?
[14:02.050 --> 14:10.510]  Of being able to, uh, to be doing the things I'm doing is just undoable anywhere else.
[14:10.630 --> 14:15.430]  And so that's really the, it's just that perfect combination of, I have these skills.
[14:15.910 --> 14:24.590]  Uh, I have this opportunity, I have this president of the university that, and he, that they got, he actually will, he'll see me say, thank you.
[14:24.810 --> 14:26.070]  Thank you for what you're doing.
[14:26.690 --> 14:37.410]  And, uh, and, and so all those kinds of things, yeah, have really, um, you know, just made this so, uh, fulfilling and, and, and, and just unstoppable.
[14:38.370 --> 14:39.570]  Uh, invaluable work.
[14:39.810 --> 14:41.810]  Thanks for coming all the way out here for, for this.
[14:41.970 --> 14:45.130]  We're definitely going to, uh, give you all a chance to, to, to ask some questions.
[14:45.130 --> 14:46.650]  I definitely want to get into the film.
[14:46.830 --> 14:49.430]  I know, Johannes, your, your poor vocal chords.
[14:49.630 --> 14:51.930]  I'll have your producer do the heavy lifting for you.
[14:52.510 --> 15:04.450]  Uh, yes, I mean, the, the, the, you know, the, uh, the film colonialization through COVID, activism, makerspaces, this is a very ambitious, uh, storytelling here.
[15:04.690 --> 15:09.330]  And I feel like Durango is kind of where it all comes together.
[15:09.330 --> 15:18.710]  Uh, could you talk a little bit about getting all these sweeping ideas into something that, uh, was going to be concise and make sense on the same piece?
[15:20.430 --> 15:28.410]  I think the, the very first beginning of this movie, actually, as a Ryan Finnegan is an old, dear friend of us.
[15:28.550 --> 15:30.090]  You know him longer than I am.
[15:30.350 --> 15:35.290]  Maybe, uh, you know him from a lot of hacking stuff, doing things together.
[15:35.290 --> 15:42.270]  So when, when there was this time that COVID hit, actually he posted quite a lot of weird stuff on Facebook.
[15:42.470 --> 15:47.170]  So we were like kind of following this up and asked like, Hey man, what's going on?
[15:47.290 --> 15:48.570]  What's, what, what's up?
[15:48.670 --> 15:50.150]  What's all this stuff that you're posting?
[15:50.350 --> 15:51.130]  We didn't get it.
[15:51.330 --> 15:54.210]  And then we had a very long zoom altogether.
[15:54.510 --> 16:04.390]  And, uh, he, he said what, uh, he was up to and how he started this whole, uh, process actually, of building the, the papers and the stuff.
[16:04.950 --> 16:07.290]  And yeah, we were like flabbergasted.
[16:07.970 --> 16:15.490]  And kind of the way through the zoom, I think it kind of, yeah, developed into, yeah.
[16:15.650 --> 16:15.890]  Okay.
[16:16.130 --> 16:17.670]  We should document this.
[16:17.770 --> 16:19.510]  He asked us to document this.
[16:19.710 --> 16:25.790]  And we said like, yeah, okay, maybe let's, as a first step, do this with, I think no real outcome.
[16:25.790 --> 16:29.070]  So it was just like an idea and we want documentation.
[16:29.610 --> 16:31.790]  And yeah, you want to say or add to that?
[16:32.130 --> 16:32.910]  A little bit.
[16:32.950 --> 16:34.670]  I'll make it short from my throat.
[16:35.350 --> 16:45.410]  Uh, the thing was that the first idea for the film was to tell the story of the hackerspace and the story of the pepper building and all that stuff.
[16:46.930 --> 16:54.370]  But you can't understand any of that without having to go back to American colonialism.
[16:54.370 --> 16:59.610]  You have to, to explain to the audience, what is American genocide?
[17:00.150 --> 17:01.410]  Why are there reservations?
[17:01.730 --> 17:04.110]  What happens to the American indigenous population?
[17:04.470 --> 17:12.530]  Why is the health situation on the Navajo nation so bad that the virus could hit that drastically there?
[17:12.870 --> 17:19.110]  So it was impossible to just tell that one story without like breaking it into three parts.
[17:19.110 --> 17:27.270]  Uh, because then you also have to explain the story of what hackers are and hackerspaces are and the do it yourself movement is.
[17:27.730 --> 17:35.030]  And, uh, that made a long film, but I think I don't, yeah, talking about like killing babies and stuff.
[17:35.270 --> 17:41.410]  I don't know what could be extracted more to, to, and still would make it understandable.
[17:42.450 --> 17:45.110]  Could you, uh, could you talk, I don't need that microphone.
[17:45.630 --> 17:46.710]  Uh, could you talk a little bit?
[17:47.130 --> 17:49.350]  The stream needs the microphone.
[17:49.830 --> 18:00.030]  I am always fascinated by, uh, by artists, filmmakers who, uh, who make portraits of America, but are not from America.
[18:00.030 --> 18:10.770]  Could you talk a little bit about your relationship with America and, uh, how that affected how you wanted to tell this story knowing that you're also going to be making an English language project?
[18:10.770 --> 18:11.170]  Yeah.
[18:12.710 --> 18:14.150]  I mean, it's interesting.
[18:14.310 --> 18:17.710]  All my films so far are English language projects.
[18:17.990 --> 18:27.610]  So, uh, I find it kind of like disillusioning to make something in German for the Austrian market that does not exist.
[18:27.810 --> 18:28.210]  I don't know.
[18:28.730 --> 18:35.190]  Uh, so, and I mean, the story why I'm so fascinated with America, the U.S.
[18:35.190 --> 18:52.090]  is kind of told in the first part with Trace Route, where I do a road trip through the States from the West Coast to the East Coast, where I go to all the locations and all the people that, um, inspired me in a positive way, being a nerd.
[18:52.890 --> 18:58.010]  Uh, and I also came by the Navajo Nation on that road trip.
[18:58.010 --> 19:04.990]  So, it was the first time I saw that when you kind of see the quality of the road suddenly changes.
[19:05.350 --> 19:08.690]  The quality of the area changes.
[19:09.830 --> 19:11.450]  The huts look desperate.
[19:11.790 --> 19:13.570]  And you think, like, what just happened?
[19:13.570 --> 19:15.870]  Did I just drive into a different country?
[19:16.610 --> 19:18.330]  And in fact, it is true.
[19:18.570 --> 19:22.670]  I just drove through Navajo Nation or into Navajo Nation.
[19:22.890 --> 19:23.950]  And you see it.
[19:24.010 --> 19:29.790]  You feel the socio- socioeconomic pressure on that landscape.
[19:30.990 --> 19:46.910]  And I want to add a little bit, maybe just not only the question, why do Austrians, uh, do a film about the U.S., but also why do, like, uh, white, uh, hetero people do, uh, a film about, uh, Native Americans?
[19:46.910 --> 19:50.750]  I think this is, uh, uh, uh, a frequently asked question.
[19:51.090 --> 19:57.410]  And I think when we made this film, we talked really long, uh, about all of that, actually.
[19:57.930 --> 20:02.830]  Uh, how should be the representation of voices and stuff like that.
[20:02.830 --> 20:13.050]  So because I think, uh, privilege for me normally means that when you have, when you have privilege, there's also the chance to give it to others and give voice to others.
[20:13.190 --> 20:16.190]  This is what we as filmmakers can do.
[20:16.350 --> 20:20.210]  We can take on this project because nobody else is doing it, actually.
[20:20.810 --> 20:27.430]  And, uh, then you can hand over and say, okay, uh, please, uh, talk about yourselves, yeah?
[20:27.550 --> 20:29.310]  And not be talking about other people.
[20:29.490 --> 20:32.610]  So this was, like, a big thing we discussed all the way through this.
[20:32.610 --> 20:36.330]  But also, like, uh, representation was, like, a big topic.
[20:36.610 --> 20:38.450]  Also, like, you see a lot...
[20:38.450 --> 20:42.890]  For example, we didn't want to make so many stereotypes, yeah?
[20:43.430 --> 20:46.610]  Like, the hackers would be, like, a perfect example.
[20:46.910 --> 20:51.830]  Like, uh, non-hacking people would expect, yeah, okay, these are all males, whatever.
[20:52.090 --> 20:55.830]  And we had so many female voices inside of that as a female with a star place.
[20:56.410 --> 20:58.930]  Uh, so this was always...
[20:58.930 --> 21:04.470]  We wanted to get to the real bottom of things and let people talk about what they want to talk about.
[21:04.710 --> 21:06.310]  This is what I wanted to add up, maybe.
[21:07.050 --> 21:11.170]  Uh, we got time for a question or two from the audience, if you have any.
[21:11.570 --> 21:12.450]  Can I see a hand somewhere?
[21:12.450 --> 21:14.150]  Not all at one answer.
[21:14.550 --> 21:14.950]  Yes?
[21:16.710 --> 21:17.430]  Oh, yeah.
[21:17.590 --> 21:18.690]  We got a mic down here.
[21:18.830 --> 21:19.550]  You can come on down.
[21:23.720 --> 21:28.760]  So, uh, first, I would like to know, um, where I can find your other films.
[21:29.340 --> 21:44.100]  And then, um, second, I was a little struck by how we begin with telling the story of the conquest of this continent being founded on white supremacy and the damage done to the indigenous people.
[21:44.400 --> 21:49.060]  And obviously, we're all familiar with the rest of the history of U.S. white supremacy.
[21:49.380 --> 21:59.200]  And then you sort of end on the note that we should reject identitarian politics and be multicultural.
[21:59.200 --> 22:02.200]  And I thought that was an interesting juxtaposition.
[22:02.380 --> 22:04.040]  I just wanted to see if you would comment on that.
[22:04.580 --> 22:15.160]  Um, interestingly, that statement, uh, came from the Navajo anarcho-syndicalist, uh, anonymous hacker.
[22:15.460 --> 22:16.680]  I did not say that.
[22:16.800 --> 22:18.380]  I did not say that.
[22:18.540 --> 22:23.480]  I would probably, in our current cultural climate, not have said that.
[22:23.720 --> 22:25.640]  Because I would have been immediately attacked.
[22:25.640 --> 22:28.780]  But if someone from that culture...
[22:28.780 --> 22:32.660]  For me, it just says there are different forms of politics.
[22:33.220 --> 22:36.240]  And politics is not race-bound or something like that.
[22:36.380 --> 22:43.240]  It's just like, you can be a hardcore Marxist, uh, and I don't know, and a Navajo.
[22:43.600 --> 22:49.180]  Uh, and, uh, and have problems with certain kinds of, uh, of politics.
[22:49.180 --> 22:56.320]  I kinda agree with the sentiment of that, uh, for many liberals in the United States.
[22:56.520 --> 22:58.920]  And I'm talking about what Americans mean with liberals.
[22:59.260 --> 23:16.100]  Uh, that there is sometimes almost like a sugarcoating of politics by gluing name tags on things to make it more separatable or make it more, uh, easier to swallow or something like that.
[23:16.100 --> 23:19.980]  I mean, the stuff is highly complex, and there is not one single answer to that.
[23:20.860 --> 23:29.400]  And, I mean, for me, the film is, if I would have to summarize it in one line, it's a film about communities.
[23:30.320 --> 23:36.560]  It's, uh, it's a film about some communities you can choose, like the hacker community.
[23:36.560 --> 23:38.680]  I wanna be part of that.
[23:39.040 --> 23:43.520]  And some communities you are born into, and you can't help it.
[23:44.040 --> 23:45.100]  The Navajo, whoever.
[23:45.500 --> 23:50.880]  The Austrians, and, and our history of racial, um, genocide.
[23:51.980 --> 24:04.040]  Uh, and I think it is important to remind ourselves to help communities, to make communities stronger, and to also...
[24:04.040 --> 24:08.860]  uh, draw connections between communities.
[24:09.740 --> 24:16.160]  To not have this, like, what I would call, mental incest going on.
[24:16.320 --> 24:22.620]  That the hackers are not talking to the musicians, and the musicians are not talking to the labor rights people, or whatever.
[24:22.800 --> 24:28.140]  I think the only way we can solve anything out there is talk to each other.
[24:28.140 --> 24:30.460]  And sometimes we have to disagree.
[24:30.640 --> 24:31.560]  There is no way.
[24:33.160 --> 24:36.560]  But, that's my basic core idea, is solidarity.
[24:36.560 --> 24:41.340]  We have to find common ground, and build solidarity from that.
[24:41.480 --> 24:43.920]  But, I'm a very classic European leftist.
[24:44.040 --> 24:44.680]  What can I say?
[24:45.340 --> 24:47.260]  Uh, mental incest, we unfortunately...
[24:54.470 --> 24:55.670]  A pirate bay.
[24:56.250 --> 25:09.030]  Uh, um, well, uh, so, uh, Trace Route and Glossy of Broken Dreams, I actually sell them on my Vimeo.
[25:09.630 --> 25:13.890]  You can also download them on, on, on Pirate Bay, and send me a couple of bucks.
[25:14.130 --> 25:20.350]  There is a fake FBI warning in the beginning, with my PayPal account, you can send me some bucks, if you want.
[25:20.350 --> 25:24.910]  And, uh, my other films are actually horror films.
[25:25.530 --> 25:30.750]  And, uh, my last two ones were actually sold to big American distribution companies.
[25:31.330 --> 25:36.510]  Drafthouse Films was Masking Threshold, that I showed, uh, last time here.
[25:36.690 --> 25:40.330]  Which is a very nerdy, going insane movie.
[25:41.350 --> 25:43.750]  Uh, that's on all the big streaming platforms.
[25:43.910 --> 25:45.050]  You can just, like, rent it there.
[25:45.550 --> 25:51.690]  The same is true for Ratzenest, which is a very strange, uh, horror thriller.
[25:52.030 --> 25:53.410]  Almost like an audio play.
[25:53.930 --> 25:54.690]  But not.
[25:55.150 --> 25:56.490]  And that can also be found.
[25:56.730 --> 25:59.670]  You actually bought that thing when you were working for Fandor.
[25:59.970 --> 26:00.430]  So, yeah.
[26:01.190 --> 26:01.810]  That's nice.
[26:01.830 --> 26:03.150]  It's beautiful wherever you find movies.
[26:03.590 --> 26:04.070]  What is it saying?
[26:04.230 --> 26:04.510]  Stop!
[26:04.890 --> 26:05.990]  There's a sign that says stop.
[26:06.310 --> 26:09.570]  Thank you so much for, uh, for sticking around, ladies and gentlemen.
[26:09.950 --> 26:10.090]  Y'all.