[00:00.000 --> 00:01.760]  Linguistic programming and shellcode.
[00:02.160 --> 00:02.800]  Thank you.
[00:02.980 --> 00:03.420]  Thank you.
[00:07.710 --> 00:08.690]  Can you guys hear me?
[00:08.870 --> 00:09.910]  Okay, mic is on.
[00:10.030 --> 00:10.190]  Good.
[00:11.010 --> 00:18.630]  Alright, so as I'm sure you guys will learn in a little while after I've been talking for a bit, hypnotists are fond of stories.
[00:19.110 --> 00:29.130]  And so I'm going to start off by talking a little bit about a story that fits in with the tradition of this talk and the tradition of hypnosis.
[00:30.090 --> 00:31.350]  So I'm going to start with something.
[00:32.730 --> 00:37.330]  I was walking through the streets of Toronto, where I'm from, the other day.
[00:37.790 --> 00:39.070]  And I was on my way to the subway.
[00:40.310 --> 00:45.090]  And I have a thing for t-shirts, which makes this conference really cool, because everybody's got excellent t-shirts.
[00:45.610 --> 00:53.210]  And I saw a really great t-shirt that said, by reading this, you've already given me control of a tiny slice of your mind.
[00:54.590 --> 00:58.850]  And as I walked by, I walked by the girl wearing it, I stepped onto the escalator.
[00:59.050 --> 01:04.770]  And as I started down the escalator, I started thinking about what that shirt said and what it actually meant.
[01:05.970 --> 01:12.010]  And I found it really interesting, because as a hypnotist, you know, I don't go around talking about being a hypnotist very often.
[01:12.010 --> 01:16.190]  Because it sort of looked down on like, ooh, you know, you're going to control my mind.
[01:16.710 --> 01:20.890]  But we all contribute, you know, we all give away our control of our minds every day.
[01:21.390 --> 01:27.110]  You know, by watching TV, by seeing the ads on the billboards outside, by listening to the radio.
[01:27.690 --> 01:31.710]  Each of us allows someone to control a tiny slice of our mind each day.
[01:32.730 --> 01:37.170]  And I got thinking that it's similar to the way that people view hackers, right?
[01:38.670 --> 01:45.930]  The way that people look at hypnotists as somewhat a little bit scary, is often the way that we as hackers are perceived as well.
[01:46.390 --> 02:03.210]  And so, as I got off the escalator, I started thinking back to the first time that I was really, you know, sort of identified as a hacker in the same way that sometimes I'm, you know, loath to be identified as a hypnotist.
[02:03.610 --> 02:08.410]  And I got thinking about the first time that I did anything that really sort of crossed the line.
[02:09.050 --> 02:18.610]  And I was back in college, and I was working for a really cheesy online dating site at their internal call center.
[02:18.810 --> 02:21.910]  So it was an inbound call center, so we just sat there and waited for the phone to ring.
[02:22.590 --> 02:31.090]  And like I'm sure many people have experienced here, if you're a customer service grunt, you don't do it, you know, you're not expected to know what the computer does.
[02:31.550 --> 02:34.910]  It was an old NT box, and it was, quote unquote, locked down.
[02:35.970 --> 02:41.630]  And I got bored and decided I wanted to get access to Telnet to check my email out at the university.
[02:42.450 --> 02:46.610]  And so, you know, I tried launching the run window, and that didn't work.
[02:46.770 --> 02:48.990]  And I tried looking in the programs list, and it wasn't there.
[02:49.130 --> 02:52.550]  And I tried Control-Alt-Delete and launching a program out of Task Manager.
[02:52.790 --> 02:53.890]  And none of those worked.
[02:54.250 --> 02:55.530]  But we had a web browser.
[02:55.670 --> 03:01.390]  So I typed telnet colon slash slash in the address bar, and I had a Telnet window, which was wonderful.
[03:02.890 --> 03:06.110]  But then I tried to check my email, and I didn't have any.
[03:06.350 --> 03:08.690]  So I had three hours left on my shift, and I'm still bored.
[03:11.490 --> 03:16.730]  And suffice it to say, the next thing I did was started playing with the network.
[03:16.730 --> 03:19.870]  And found a router with no password on it.
[03:20.190 --> 03:27.370]  And then found a Solaris box that had the password in the login banner, which was quite nice.
[03:28.090 --> 03:32.990]  And then started noticing trust relationships with pluses in our host's files all over the place.
[03:33.270 --> 03:39.170]  And by the end of my shift, me as a lowly customer service rep, had owned about 50 boxes on four continents.
[03:41.390 --> 03:46.890]  I can tell you I was well-liked that night, because the next thing I did actually changed my life in a big way.
[03:47.250 --> 03:52.030]  The next thing I did, just as my shift was ending, was that I told my boss about it.
[03:54.190 --> 03:59.250]  And we'll save that for later, because that actually reminded me, as I was writing this, about another story.
[03:59.770 --> 04:06.170]  That's a story that originated in the monasteries of Japan, that a good friend of mine often likes to tell.
[04:06.630 --> 04:11.770]  And it's the story of a really mischievous young lad named Koji.
[04:12.390 --> 04:14.930]  And I'll tell you, Koji these days would be a hacker.
[04:17.630 --> 04:20.650]  Because Koji was too smart for his own good.
[04:21.130 --> 04:22.350]  And he was mischievous.
[04:22.650 --> 04:24.530]  And whenever he got bored, he got himself into trouble.
[04:25.330 --> 04:29.990]  And eventually, Koji's parents got sick of Koji being in trouble, and decided to send him off to a monastery.
[04:30.570 --> 04:32.870]  Somewhat like sending a kid to military school these days.
[04:34.650 --> 04:35.790]  And they shipped him off.
[04:36.990 --> 04:38.650]  But Koji remained bored.
[04:38.830 --> 04:41.670]  He was bored at the monastery, just like he was bored in his real life.
[04:43.210 --> 04:46.370]  And suddenly, he started to get himself in trouble there.
[04:47.150 --> 04:53.270]  And eventually, Koji, getting himself in trouble enough, found himself in the headmaster's quarters of the monastery.
[04:54.850 --> 05:02.650]  And the headmaster started talking to him about responsibility, and all the sorts of things that your school principal probably talked to you about at some point.
[05:04.770 --> 05:09.190]  And while he was doing that, the headmaster was eating out of a large jar of candy.
[05:09.530 --> 05:16.610]  He was sitting back, relaxing on his couch, because you can do that when you're a headmaster of a monastery, and just popping candy into his mouth.
[05:17.070 --> 05:19.370]  And Koji hadn't seen candy in a long time.
[05:19.850 --> 05:22.610]  And he said, hey, what's, you know, is that candy?
[05:23.150 --> 05:25.370]  And the headmaster said, no, that's not candy.
[05:26.790 --> 05:28.610]  That's poison for young boys.
[05:28.870 --> 05:30.190]  It's candy for adults.
[05:30.990 --> 05:35.130]  The type of lie that many adults tell many children, as I'm sure you all know.
[05:36.150 --> 05:38.410]  And so Koji was given his punishment.
[05:38.410 --> 05:41.990]  He was required to do extra chores at the beginning of the day, and extra chores at the end of the day.
[05:43.770 --> 05:50.910]  And because he was an incredibly smart and industrious young boy, he didn't have any problems achieving those tasks.
[05:53.310 --> 05:58.530]  And soon, as happened in monastery culture in Japan, the headmaster was called away to visit another monastery.
[05:58.990 --> 06:03.430]  And this is the old days, so they, you know, he went in a large procession.
[06:03.670 --> 06:06.650]  They had, you know, people carrying his trunks and all that sort of thing.
[06:06.650 --> 06:07.730]  And many of the adults left.
[06:09.850 --> 06:14.230]  And so things went on as normal for a while, with many of the adults gone.
[06:14.510 --> 06:17.270]  It was quiet around the monastery, but the kids kept doing what they were doing.
[06:18.130 --> 06:20.590]  Until eventually, Koji found himself bored again.
[06:21.250 --> 06:25.690]  And one night, he was talking with a bunch of the other kids, and he said, hey, guess what?
[06:25.890 --> 06:27.350]  I know where we can get some candy.
[06:28.210 --> 06:31.250]  And so they broke into the headmaster's quarters late at night.
[06:33.010 --> 06:35.290]  And, you know, this was a huge jar of candy.
[06:35.290 --> 06:39.230]  I mean, this is like, you know, this big, which is twice the height of a young kid.
[06:40.990 --> 06:43.350]  And they started eating candy, and they ate a few.
[06:44.310 --> 06:45.710]  And then they ate a few more.
[06:45.790 --> 06:49.070]  And probably, if they had stopped there, nobody would have noticed.
[06:49.610 --> 06:52.850]  But soon enough, after eating a few more, the jar was empty.
[06:54.790 --> 06:58.250]  And all the kids suddenly looked up and said, oh my gosh, what are we going to do?
[06:58.470 --> 06:59.450]  They're going to kill us.
[06:59.630 --> 07:00.790]  When they come back, we're dead.
[07:02.070 --> 07:04.310]  And Koji said, don't worry, I've got a plan.
[07:05.530 --> 07:13.790]  He looked down to the end of the room, and on the headmaster's hearth was the prized possession of the monastery.
[07:13.990 --> 07:17.130]  It was an ancient vase that had gone back hundreds of years.
[07:17.290 --> 07:24.970]  It had been won in some great war, and it was a story that all the boys knew about this particular vase, and the pride that the monastery took in the vase.
[07:25.890 --> 07:33.450]  And Koji walked down, and he picked up the vase, and he slammed it on the floor, shattering it into a million pieces.
[07:34.010 --> 07:36.310]  And the boys were positively stunned.
[07:36.670 --> 07:38.430]  They had no idea what to do.
[07:40.850 --> 07:43.650]  So, let's talk a little bit about hacking and hypnosis.
[07:47.790 --> 07:49.450]  This is what I'm going to go over today.
[07:51.210 --> 07:53.930]  For those who don't know, I'm not just a hypnotist.
[07:54.110 --> 07:57.390]  In my quote-unquote, day job, I manage a vulnerability research team.
[07:57.510 --> 07:58.870]  So, I am a hacker as well.
[08:01.030 --> 08:06.130]  I got into hypnosis because computers are interesting, but they're pretty linear.
[08:06.970 --> 08:12.670]  Whereas the human mind is a million times more complex, and even more interesting than you can possibly imagine.
[08:13.890 --> 08:21.990]  So, because I know that many of you understand the concepts of hacking, I'm going to bring some of those concepts about the human mind to you.
[08:23.030 --> 08:26.190]  Let's start with just a little bit about, you know, what is hacking?
[08:26.690 --> 08:29.270]  You know, I think everybody in the room knows what hacking is.
[08:29.490 --> 08:37.130]  But unfortunately, I think most people in the room probably have a pretty messed up version of what hypnosis is.
[08:38.430 --> 08:44.930]  Some of you might have expected me to dangle a watch up here, or call somebody up on stage and make them bark like a dog.
[08:46.530 --> 08:50.850]  You know, control someone's mind, make them forget things, all that sort of stuff.
[08:51.430 --> 08:52.810]  Hypnosis isn't really like that.
[08:53.470 --> 08:57.590]  That's about as much hypnosis as anyone who's seen the movie Hackers.
[08:57.870 --> 08:58.550]  That's hacking.
[09:00.430 --> 09:04.830]  You know, Angelina Jolie in that movie was great, but the movie had nothing to do with real life.
[09:04.950 --> 09:06.550]  I wish I could fly through computers like that.
[09:09.210 --> 09:16.270]  Hypnosis is really the art of communicating and helping someone be in a state so that they can hear whatever message you want them to hear.
[09:17.470 --> 09:22.310]  And using especially an understanding of what the unconscious mind hears.
[09:22.750 --> 09:24.030]  There's two parts to your mind.
[09:24.130 --> 09:25.990]  There's the conscious mind which you're aware of every day.
[09:26.530 --> 09:32.250]  And then there's the unconscious part of your mind which does things like keep your heart beating and create dreams for you at night.
[09:32.530 --> 09:36.050]  And all of those other parts of your brain that we hear so little about.
[09:36.790 --> 09:42.770]  Hypnosis is really the act of structuring communication to speak to that part of the mind.
[09:43.230 --> 09:47.690]  So that you can make the most effective communication at any given time.
[09:48.850 --> 09:50.890]  So, I put some rules up there.
[09:52.010 --> 09:55.310]  Sort of the knowledge required to be able to hack.
[09:55.730 --> 10:00.210]  And also, to me, the knowledge required to be able to do hypnosis.
[10:01.030 --> 10:09.690]  I think that anyone who has spent a lot of time hacking around on any sort of system would agree that those four principles are pretty universal.
[10:09.930 --> 10:21.310]  It doesn't matter whether you're like the guys before me who were building automatic weapons out of nail guns or you're breaking into a computer or you're creating code.
[10:21.510 --> 10:22.630]  All of that is similar.
[10:25.070 --> 10:27.330]  So let's talk about exploitation, shall we?
[10:27.330 --> 10:31.510]  Since everyone here probably knows a little bit about that.
[10:33.510 --> 10:38.950]  There's really three types of, you know, computer exploits that I want to talk about today.
[10:39.690 --> 10:44.850]  First one's the buffer overflow, which I'm sure everyone knows about or is at least somewhat comfortable with.
[10:45.050 --> 10:53.550]  The second one is the confusion of processing content, which we see in the computer world as the format string attack.
[10:54.090 --> 10:59.730]  And then data-driven attacks, attacks that happen because the commands are in the data in a particular way.
[11:00.870 --> 11:14.830]  The way you create content for a human to be quote-unquote exploited, I don't like that word when talking about humans, it's not quite the right word, is exactly the same way you do it when you're doing it for a computer.
[11:15.050 --> 11:17.290]  And I'm going to walk through a little bit about each of that.
[11:17.290 --> 11:20.090]  So let's talk about buffer overflows.
[11:21.170 --> 11:24.470]  The mind has limitations in very much the same way a computer does.
[11:24.870 --> 11:29.450]  Think about a computer buffer overflow, you know, me writing bad C there.
[11:30.770 --> 11:36.490]  Basically, I have a buffer, and I start filling it, and I eventually run out, and I overflow the buffer.
[11:38.210 --> 11:41.310]  That should probably be reviewed for most of the people in the room, I would assume.
[11:42.810 --> 11:44.830]  The human side works the same way.
[11:45.610 --> 11:49.350]  Human buffer overflows are actually based on what we call open loops.
[11:49.690 --> 11:51.890]  And a loop is simply the beginning of a thought.
[11:52.890 --> 11:54.490]  Actually, the completion of a thought.
[11:54.630 --> 11:57.670]  A loop is, I begin a story, I end a story.
[11:58.830 --> 12:02.290]  You know, we start talking about one thing, we finish talking about that thing.
[12:03.330 --> 12:12.550]  What you find in humans is if you start opening a whole lot of loops, but never close any of them, things start to happen really interestingly.
[12:14.970 --> 12:27.290]  And anyone who's ever talked with someone who's artful about this, usually, you know, philosophy majors are, you know, people who have been philosophers, have a tendency to open a lot of loops really quickly.
[12:27.290 --> 12:33.430]  And you find yourself suddenly very confused, not knowing where they're going or where they've been.
[12:33.710 --> 12:35.230]  And that's exactly how it works.
[12:35.410 --> 12:38.370]  You start opening loops, and then you don't close them.
[12:38.810 --> 12:42.150]  And eventually, the person just can't follow consciously anymore.
[12:42.450 --> 12:52.610]  Because there's an old study that some of you may have heard of that says that human beings can process, can hold in memory at a given time, seven plus or minus two chunks of information.
[12:53.310 --> 13:01.870]  So, if you're thinking about a phone number, if I asked you to remember a phone number as each individual digit, you probably would have a very hard time with it.
[13:02.430 --> 13:06.450]  But instead, we do it in chunks of three, or chunks of three and a chunk of four, right?
[13:07.390 --> 13:13.770]  You think of the area code, then the first three digits, then the second three digits, and you've only got three chunks of information, so it's really easy.
[13:14.850 --> 13:20.250]  This is how, you know, you see people who are, quote unquote, memory experts.
[13:21.050 --> 13:24.590]  I once knew somebody who could recite pi to 300 digits.
[13:26.110 --> 13:34.050]  What's interesting is he, using very much the technology of chunking, taught me to memorize pi to 30 digits.
[13:34.210 --> 13:36.510]  So, it's not hard.
[13:36.630 --> 13:39.150]  It's really easy to do if you use chunking appropriately.
[13:39.450 --> 13:49.710]  But, if you can't chunk the loops, if the loops are simply opened, and you have too much data to be able to process consciously, where does all that other data go?
[13:51.010 --> 13:53.790]  All that other data goes directly to the unconscious mind.
[13:55.070 --> 13:57.710]  And you can start making changes that way.
[13:59.130 --> 14:04.710]  What you'll find is really great hypnotists work almost exclusively with the unconscious mind.
[14:04.910 --> 14:08.930]  They'll do some stuff consciously just for the heck of it.
[14:09.130 --> 14:11.950]  You know, just so that you feel like they actually talk to you for a few minutes.
[14:11.950 --> 14:15.450]  But, generally, it works directly on the unconscious.
[14:16.610 --> 14:18.510]  Let's talk about format strings for a sec.
[14:21.210 --> 14:27.490]  Format strings are a little more esoteric when it comes to talking about actual exploits.
[14:31.570 --> 14:39.350]  Basically, format string happens when the computer confuses the content it's given with the process that it's supposed to be following.
[14:40.970 --> 14:44.190]  So, you can see the code fragment there.
[14:44.650 --> 14:56.370]  That scanf string, if you put content into it, it doesn't know whether it's content, blah, blah, blah, or format string, and how to interpret it.
[14:56.710 --> 15:00.530]  So, what you have is the computer trying to figure out and making a mistake.
[15:00.530 --> 15:09.670]  Literally, just making a mistake causing the %s in the content to be treated as process, the way it's supposed to do things.
[15:10.610 --> 15:15.410]  And that allows you to jump to another memory location and take control of the computer, in some cases.
[15:15.570 --> 15:16.990]  Otherwise, it just makes stuff crash.
[15:19.870 --> 15:22.510]  Works the same way when you're talking.
[15:22.510 --> 15:36.310]  You can create ambiguous statements that the mind doesn't know whether it's content, or whether it's process.
[15:37.030 --> 15:45.050]  So, you find that people who are hypnotists spend a lot of time studying language, and especially studying syntax.
[15:47.630 --> 15:53.470]  The old example is the sentence, Hypnotizing hypnotists are tricky.
[15:54.170 --> 15:55.730]  Really simple sentence, right?
[15:55.970 --> 15:56.490]  Four words.
[15:57.550 --> 16:00.470]  Does that mean it's tricky to hypnotize a hypnotist?
[16:00.670 --> 16:04.370]  Does that mean the hypnotist is tricky when they are hypnotizing?
[16:04.370 --> 16:06.250]  What does it specifically mean?
[16:07.910 --> 16:08.990]  You don't know.
[16:10.010 --> 16:20.770]  Which is what I can use to then structure a message in order for your unconscious to hear it, rather than structuring the message for your conscious to understand it.
[16:21.370 --> 16:35.050]  Often, I have a favorite hypnotist friend of mine who likes to use the phrase, When you realize with your real eyes, then you will understand.
[16:36.490 --> 16:39.510]  Because it's the same set of phonetic statements.
[16:39.910 --> 16:41.950]  Real eyes and real eyes.
[16:42.670 --> 16:46.210]  And there are multiple ways of understanding it.
[16:46.890 --> 16:57.610]  This is all going to come together a little bit in the next statement, but what you will find is that hypnosis is really about confusion.
[16:58.910 --> 17:04.190]  And if you find yourself confused in the middle of this talk, consider that a good sign.
[17:07.370 --> 17:19.650]  Actually, I was thinking earlier that it's kind of cool because, you know, being a hypnotist and being up here, I'm probably the only person who, if you guys start nodding off in the middle of my talk, I can take that as a good sign.
[17:20.770 --> 17:24.110]  I can notice that you've just closed your eyes and gone into trance.
[17:24.110 --> 17:28.250]  Whereas, if anyone else did it, you'd be asleep.
[17:31.350 --> 17:34.770]  So, talking about specifically content attacks.
[17:35.330 --> 17:37.470]  Content itself can sometimes be an attack.
[17:37.570 --> 17:42.130]  And we see that in the hacking world often when you think about web-based attacks.
[17:42.410 --> 17:42.850]  Right?
[17:43.010 --> 17:43.810]  SQL injection.
[17:43.810 --> 17:56.190]  It's not that... I mean, it's a little bit like the format string attack in that you're seeing somewhat that the process and the content are being confused.
[17:56.690 --> 17:59.270]  But really, here, the content is the instruction.
[17:59.570 --> 18:07.870]  Rather than having to jump to another memory space and then architect shellcode for that memory space, the instruction becomes part of the content.
[18:07.990 --> 18:08.810]  You're not jumping around.
[18:09.610 --> 18:11.330]  It's just in the middle of the content.
[18:12.770 --> 18:15.230]  And so, we have an analog.
[18:15.630 --> 18:16.930]  We have an analog in...
[18:18.410 --> 18:24.430]  When you're thinking about human minds, which reminds me of a story.
[18:27.390 --> 18:30.770]  So, I heard this story once, and I'm going to change it a little bit.
[18:31.790 --> 18:36.010]  So, there's a hacker one time who broke into a massive supercomputer.
[18:36.570 --> 18:39.250]  For anybody who saw the movie Hackers, it was called the Gibson.
[18:41.570 --> 18:47.650]  The hacker is so excited about it, he jumps up from his bedroom where he's working late at night, goes and tells his roommate.
[18:48.090 --> 18:50.190]  His roommate happens to be a sociologist.
[18:51.610 --> 18:57.350]  And his sociology roommate says, Oh man, you've got the Gibson.
[18:58.190 --> 18:59.870]  I need to ask it a question.
[19:00.150 --> 19:03.850]  Because it's a question only the biggest supercomputer in the world could possibly answer.
[19:04.850 --> 19:07.290]  And the hacker is like, alright, whatever sociology boy.
[19:07.530 --> 19:08.910]  Let's go play with the computer.
[19:11.130 --> 19:12.710]  So, they type into the computer.
[19:13.570 --> 19:17.470]  Do you compute that you will ever think like a human being?
[19:19.510 --> 19:24.170]  And the process bar jumps up on screen because it's got that funky TV interface.
[19:25.630 --> 19:28.130]  And the computer indicates that the result is going to take all night.
[19:30.210 --> 19:38.510]  And so, instead of going to get more caffeine so you can be up all night, the two decide to go to bed.
[19:40.110 --> 19:43.250]  And when they wake up in the morning, the computer has given them the result.
[19:44.470 --> 19:48.310]  And so, they eagerly rush to the computer to see what the result is.
[19:49.310 --> 19:53.590]  And on the screen it says, that reminds me of a story.
[19:55.810 --> 19:59.490]  Because humans think in stories and metaphors and patterns.
[19:59.830 --> 20:03.330]  Because the unconscious mind understands patterns.
[20:03.870 --> 20:10.210]  It's why we see in the culture of humanity, for thousands of years, how is knowledge transitioned?
[20:10.370 --> 20:11.630]  How is knowledge passed down?
[20:11.890 --> 20:13.410]  It gets passed down through stories.
[20:14.070 --> 20:17.390]  You know, we have fairytales that last hundreds or thousands of years.
[20:17.530 --> 20:21.170]  The story of Koji, which I started earlier, is an ancient story.
[20:21.310 --> 20:25.630]  It's lasted longer than, you know, our great-great-great-grandparents.
[20:27.050 --> 20:30.730]  We're probably, you know, would probably have heard that as an old story.
[20:31.650 --> 20:36.530]  And so, you'll find, as I mentioned at the beginning of this, hypnotists like stories.
[20:37.910 --> 20:45.710]  And one of the main reasons for that is because stories have within them patterns that go directly to the unconscious mind.
[20:46.510 --> 20:50.730]  And we owe a lot to a man named Milton Erickson.
[20:51.950 --> 20:55.430]  Erickson is widely regarded as the world's greatest hypnotherapist.
[20:56.050 --> 21:04.190]  And therapy with Erickson was once described as simply, you walk into Erickson's office, you sit down, he tells you a story, and suddenly your life changes.
[21:05.770 --> 21:09.990]  And though that sounds somewhat ridiculous, it actually was that way.
[21:10.330 --> 21:15.730]  There are huge books written on just the stories that Erickson told.
[21:16.490 --> 21:19.370]  Because his stories were so incredibly powerful.
[21:19.590 --> 21:26.310]  He knew how to tell you a story that would create a frame in which your whole life would shift.
[21:26.670 --> 21:29.470]  Your whole life can shift simply from hearing a story.
[21:30.370 --> 21:37.330]  And so, that is where the real power for the unconscious mind is.
[21:39.450 --> 21:45.130]  But now we've talked about moving, you know, executing the exploit.
[21:45.510 --> 21:47.690]  Let's talk about actually executing code.
[21:47.730 --> 21:50.190]  Because nobody wants to just DOS a box.
[21:50.870 --> 21:56.550]  I can stand up here and tell you a bunch of stuff and then make you forget it all, but that wouldn't be very interesting now, would it?
[21:59.970 --> 22:01.870]  So, the point is to actually do something.
[22:02.150 --> 22:05.950]  And if anybody's ever written an exploit in C, you know there's two pieces.
[22:06.610 --> 22:12.990]  You have to do a no-op sled, and then you have to actually craft the shellcode to make the computer do what you want it to do.
[22:14.450 --> 22:19.090]  As I'm sure you've guessed by now, that's the same way... it works the same way in hypnosis.
[22:19.830 --> 22:22.270]  So, what's a no-op sled like for humanity?
[22:22.590 --> 22:23.710]  For a human brain?
[22:25.210 --> 22:27.290]  The point of a no-op sled is really simple.
[22:27.990 --> 22:34.710]  After I've started my exploit, I want to give the computer enough time to make sure that the exploit goes through appropriately.
[22:35.010 --> 22:40.590]  I want to go deeper and deeper and deeper into memory space, so that I know I have lots of room to work.
[22:42.430 --> 22:43.750]  How do you do that with people?
[22:45.770 --> 22:47.030]  The answer is pretty simple.
[22:47.030 --> 22:56.170]  You become what is known as being artfully vague, using language that corresponds to any human experience.
[22:56.450 --> 23:01.850]  So, much like a no-op, there's no way that the computer can go, hey, I don't like to do that.
[23:04.290 --> 23:19.390]  So, you'll find that if you listen to hypnotists, or if you listen to political speech, because, flat out, almost all political speech is hypnosis in some way, what you'll find is an incredible amount of vagueness.
[23:20.070 --> 23:39.190]  George Lakoff, who's a brilliant philosopher at the University of Berkeley, just wrote a book called, Who's Freedom?, that focuses on the use of the word freedom in the last 15 years, and the way that the word freedom has been used to co-opt most of human experience.
[23:39.770 --> 23:43.350]  You know, we just had a war in Iraq for freedom.
[23:44.290 --> 23:47.450]  I personally think it was the freedom for Halliburton to make a lot of money.
[23:49.370 --> 23:55.330]  But, the question of the unspecified noun, the unspecified verb, whose freedom is it?
[23:55.850 --> 24:04.790]  Or, when you're talking about hypnosis, you'll find that instead of me saying to someone, and you may find that you can become more relaxed.
[24:05.690 --> 24:07.190]  Actually, that's probably what I would say.
[24:07.370 --> 24:11.930]  You may find that your leg goes particularly tingly right now.
[24:12.410 --> 24:13.710]  It's a very specific statement.
[24:13.910 --> 24:15.870]  You're either going to say yes, or you're going to say no.
[24:18.130 --> 24:21.570]  If that happens to be exactly what you're experiencing, it'll work really well.
[24:21.870 --> 24:25.450]  If it happens to be not what you're experiencing, you're going to shake your head and go, no, that's not right.
[24:26.190 --> 24:33.230]  So, what I would probably say is something like, and you can find that your leg has a particular sensation.
[24:34.910 --> 24:37.830]  And you can notice that you continue to breathe now.
[24:39.590 --> 24:42.110]  And maybe something changes in the way you blink.
[24:43.550 --> 24:44.250]  That's right.
[24:44.550 --> 24:46.230]  Because all those things, you're going to do.
[24:47.130 --> 24:51.810]  You know, I certainly hope you're going to continue to breathe, because if you don't, we've got a real problem.
[24:54.230 --> 25:03.290]  But it's funny, because I can stand up here and it's silly, but if you listen to the news or if you listen to the media, that's the kind of statements that...
[25:03.290 --> 25:05.050]  Man, I love White House press conferences.
[25:06.570 --> 25:10.110]  Because they make really vague statements that no one can disagree with.
[25:10.990 --> 25:14.110]  And so it maps to all of everyone's experience.
[25:14.730 --> 25:16.470]  Political speeches are brilliant for this.
[25:16.470 --> 25:20.130]  But that's the way you go deeper into that relationship.
[25:20.410 --> 25:24.350]  You go deeper and deeper as the person continues to talk.
[25:24.570 --> 25:27.510]  Because they're not saying anything you can possibly disagree with.
[25:28.990 --> 25:34.690]  At which point, then you can start to create instructions.
[25:35.570 --> 25:39.930]  And literally, it's simply the point to start executing code.
[25:43.050 --> 25:48.450]  What Erickson found is that the unconscious mind won't actually respond to direct instructions.
[25:49.250 --> 25:55.450]  So, if you're working with someone and you want them to quit smoking, for example, you can't say to them, you're going to stop smoking.
[25:56.490 --> 25:59.590]  What you can say is that you can give them the opportunity.
[25:59.870 --> 26:06.210]  And you can find that it's possible that now you may not need to smoke anymore.
[26:07.790 --> 26:09.630]  You may find that you don't need to.
[26:10.210 --> 26:12.370]  You may find that the craving goes away.
[26:14.010 --> 26:16.070]  But notice I'm not saying that it will.
[26:16.290 --> 26:17.350]  I'm just giving the option.
[26:18.090 --> 26:20.150]  This is the way the unconscious mind works.
[26:20.730 --> 26:24.610]  The unconscious mind doesn't work with directed statements particularly well.
[26:27.010 --> 26:30.710]  What's really interesting is that there is an even more powerful pattern.
[26:32.290 --> 26:35.910]  There's an even more powerful way to structure communication for the unconscious mind.
[26:39.110 --> 26:44.710]  And it's interesting because I think if someone told you this, you'd think they were crazy.
[26:45.910 --> 26:47.510]  Or maybe you're going to think I'm crazy.
[26:47.730 --> 26:55.810]  But there's an incredibly powerful language pattern that can allow you to execute any arbitrary code within anyone's brain.
[26:57.790 --> 27:01.210]  So, can you imagine just for a minute what that would be like?
[27:02.110 --> 27:04.850]  Can you imagine if there was such a language pattern?
[27:08.590 --> 27:09.830]  I think you can.
[27:12.030 --> 27:13.730]  It does exist, doesn't it?
[27:15.610 --> 27:18.750]  And if not consciously, you know what it is.
[27:19.110 --> 27:19.430]  Don't you?
[27:23.150 --> 27:24.010]  That's right.
[27:24.010 --> 27:26.010]  That's the importance of the question.
[27:26.870 --> 27:30.630]  The question simply cannot be avoided by the unconscious mind.
[27:30.730 --> 27:34.830]  You cannot ask someone a question without them answering it.
[27:35.030 --> 27:37.030]  They may not answer it directly verbally.
[27:37.330 --> 27:43.770]  But in order to listen to the language, in order to hear me say it, you have to process it.
[27:45.110 --> 27:48.770]  Which means you have executed whatever the instruction is on some level.
[27:51.290 --> 27:55.550]  Knowing how to use questions artfully, and I was just playing with them a second ago.
[27:55.850 --> 28:04.990]  But knowing how to use questions artfully is really the key to understanding how to structure content for the unconscious mind.
[28:08.750 --> 28:09.590]  All right.
[28:11.070 --> 28:16.510]  So, when we last left Koji, he'd just broken the vase.
[28:17.630 --> 28:19.750]  And all of his friends were terrified.
[28:21.210 --> 28:29.870]  And they found that they spent the next few weeks being particularly quiet.
[28:30.430 --> 28:33.330]  Everyone was terrified of when the headmaster would come home.
[28:35.330 --> 28:39.570]  And soon enough, as always happens in stories, the headmaster did come home.
[28:40.610 --> 28:47.470]  And of course, the moment he went up to his room, he noticed that the vase was broken and the jar was empty.
[28:48.510 --> 28:55.130]  And he was particularly angry and called all of the boys together and demanded to know who did it.
[28:57.210 --> 29:00.110]  And Koji stepped forward and said, I did, sir.
[29:01.990 --> 29:05.930]  And all the boys were particularly happy to let Koji take the credit, because they didn't want to take the credit.
[29:06.190 --> 29:09.170]  They didn't want to have to get punished for it, so they were happy that he did it.
[29:10.650 --> 29:14.670]  And the headmaster, you know, grabbed Koji by the ear and dragged him up to his office.
[29:16.330 --> 29:20.070]  And demanded to know, why did you do this?
[29:21.890 --> 29:25.510]  And Koji said, I'm really sorry.
[29:28.470 --> 29:35.050]  You know, you gave me all those extra chores, and I was thinking one day while I was doing my extra chores that you've been gone a long time.
[29:36.130 --> 29:38.030]  And of course, your room must get dusty.
[29:39.430 --> 29:52.150]  And so, one day, I came up here and decided that, you know, as a gift for you, because you've been so wonderful to me, I would clean your room while you were gone.
[29:53.430 --> 29:56.230]  But I'm a very little boy, and I couldn't handle the broom.
[29:56.810 --> 30:01.590]  And the broom's taller than me, and I slipped with the broom, and I knocked the vase off the shelf.
[30:04.350 --> 30:06.830]  And then, I was so upset.
[30:07.830 --> 30:10.470]  I was... I just wanted to die.
[30:10.750 --> 30:12.370]  I just... I couldn't handle it anymore.
[30:14.390 --> 30:19.510]  And I realized that you, yourself, had told me how to kill myself.
[30:21.390 --> 30:22.710]  So I went to the vase.
[30:24.090 --> 30:25.570]  And I took a piece of candy.
[30:26.110 --> 30:30.550]  And I started... and I unwrapped it, and, you know, I said my prayers, and I ate it.
[30:30.550 --> 30:31.510]  And nothing happened.
[30:32.490 --> 30:33.570]  So I ate another.
[30:34.110 --> 30:34.850]  And another.
[30:35.990 --> 30:36.910]  And I just kept eating.
[30:37.870 --> 30:41.150]  And they were all gone, and I wasn't dead, and I didn't know what to do.
[30:45.760 --> 30:49.760]  Well, later that night, Koji went back to his room with all the other boys.
[30:50.620 --> 30:56.100]  And shortly after the light was off, somebody in the room whispered, So tell us what happened.
[30:58.240 --> 31:01.280]  And Koji said, Well, I told him what happened.
[31:04.140 --> 31:08.180]  And then when I left the office, I bowed to him.
[31:08.500 --> 31:10.020]  And he bowed to me.
[31:11.340 --> 31:16.320]  And years later, Koji became the headmaster of that monastery.
[31:19.000 --> 31:25.140]  And that was sort of how I was feeling when I'd finished telling my boss that whole story.
[31:27.600 --> 31:31.600]  And so I went home after telling him the whole story.
[31:31.980 --> 31:34.640]  And that was when all hell broke loose at that company.
[31:35.200 --> 31:41.260]  They woke up the CEO at 11.30 at night, on a Friday, because they had a hacker.
[31:41.860 --> 31:44.340]  And it was an internal hacker, and they all freaked out.
[31:44.800 --> 31:51.020]  Which was probably really good for them, because they took the password out of the login banner, and they put the password on the router, and everything got better.
[31:53.140 --> 31:57.340]  And I got the phone call to come in on Monday, even though I wasn't scheduled to work.
[31:58.860 --> 32:02.940]  And I went into, in my case, the headmaster's office.
[32:03.080 --> 32:06.680]  In this case, my boss's boss's boss, who I had met once.
[32:08.460 --> 32:11.360]  And he asked me why I'd done it.
[32:11.480 --> 32:12.020]  I told him.
[32:14.260 --> 32:15.360]  Simply, I was bored.
[32:18.260 --> 32:22.680]  And it was a really interesting experience, because I fully expected to get fired that day.
[32:23.380 --> 32:26.600]  And instead of firing me, he moved me to their QA team.
[32:30.140 --> 32:33.460]  And I started doing that kind of work on a daily basis.
[32:35.940 --> 32:42.940]  And so, this was, you know, this was an incredible experience.
[32:44.260 --> 32:52.480]  And as I got off the train, and started riding back up the escalator, to get to where I was going, I continued to think about that original T-shirt.
[32:53.660 --> 32:55.480]  And I noticed a woman wearing another T-shirt.
[32:55.720 --> 32:59.740]  And it was a particularly tight T-shirt, and it was bright pink.
[32:59.740 --> 33:02.480]  And the T-shirt said, thank you for your attention.
[33:04.100 --> 33:05.740]  Which, I found quite amusing.
[33:06.280 --> 33:10.240]  And then I walked out into the street, and noticed that I was out in the sunny day.
[33:10.560 --> 33:11.560]  And the light was surrounding me.
[33:11.920 --> 33:13.040]  And everything was wonderful.
[33:13.700 --> 33:15.340]  And I was back in the real world.
[33:18.160 --> 33:20.400]  And, so I'd like to thank everybody for listening.
[33:20.760 --> 33:22.040]  I'd like to thank for your attention.
[33:22.340 --> 33:23.940]  I'm going to post the slides on the Wiki.
[33:26.700 --> 33:27.320]  Thank you.
[33:33.320 --> 33:34.460]  Feel free to email me.
[33:34.860 --> 33:35.720]  I love talking.
[33:36.580 --> 33:36.960]  So...
[33:37.660 --> 33:39.800]  If there's any questions, I'd love to take them now.
[33:40.440 --> 33:41.380]  Please take them at the mic.
[33:41.540 --> 33:42.620]  Yeah, please take it at the mic.
[33:48.210 --> 33:49.130]  Very nice talk.
[33:49.250 --> 33:50.050]  Very artfully done.
[33:50.210 --> 33:50.510]  Thank you.
[33:51.510 --> 33:57.650]  Where would you draw the line between hypnotism and NLP, since it seemed like a lot of the Milton Erickson stuff that's...
[33:57.650 --> 33:58.670]  Well, so really funny.
[33:59.390 --> 34:02.770]  The two founders of NLP would often start a hypnosis seminar.
[34:03.070 --> 34:04.210]  With a great discussion.
[34:04.690 --> 34:06.670]  One of them would say, Everything is hypnosis.
[34:07.650 --> 34:09.070]  And the other one would say, No, you're crazy.
[34:09.190 --> 34:09.830]  Nothing is hypnosis.
[34:09.990 --> 34:10.490]  There's no such thing.
[34:12.330 --> 34:14.790]  Hypnosis is simply the art of structuring communication.
[34:15.010 --> 34:16.150]  Which NLP is as well.
[34:17.070 --> 34:18.550]  They overlap in a lot of places.
[34:19.210 --> 34:21.550]  And I generally tend not to draw the distinction.
[34:22.770 --> 34:24.410]  You know, there are a lot of people out there who do.
[34:25.470 --> 34:26.470]  It's all communication.
[34:27.510 --> 34:34.090]  And things that you learn in, you know, Robert Cialdini's work on influence, for example, are very effective in hypnosis.
[34:34.270 --> 34:38.670]  Things that you learn in neurology about how the brain works are very effective in all of these places.
[34:39.050 --> 34:40.490]  It all ties together.
[34:41.170 --> 34:42.150]  It all comes together.
[34:42.290 --> 34:50.430]  It's like asking me, you know, where do I draw the line between programming and assembly and coding exploits?
[34:51.270 --> 34:52.550]  You know, it's...
[34:53.270 --> 34:55.070]  There's a line, but the skills are the same.
[34:55.930 --> 34:56.510]  Make sense?
[34:57.910 --> 35:01.230]  So what happened to the sociologist's story with the supercomputer?
[35:01.830 --> 35:02.430]  What do you mean?
[35:02.650 --> 35:03.570]  Because you never finish.
[35:03.710 --> 35:05.650]  So you basically still open the connection.
[35:05.650 --> 35:06.730]  Oh no, that loop was closed.
[35:07.230 --> 35:08.290]  That loop was closed.
[35:08.950 --> 35:10.250]  That was the end of the story.
[35:10.370 --> 35:12.210]  There's no continuation there.
[35:12.210 --> 35:12.430]  All right.
[35:12.590 --> 35:21.710]  And the second question is, have you ever used any methods to apply to your real job as opposed to your vulnerability consulting assessment company?
[35:21.750 --> 35:24.710]  Man, I hope my team doesn't get a hold of these DVDs.
[35:26.230 --> 35:28.330]  Yeah, I don't think that you can...
[35:28.330 --> 35:31.530]  I said it a minute ago, everything is hypnosis or nothingness, right?
[35:34.670 --> 35:38.850]  I started learning a lot of this because I had to suddenly become a manager.
[35:38.850 --> 35:44.190]  And I knew a lot about how to hack computers and not very much about how to hack people.
[35:44.650 --> 35:47.510]  Um, and so I started learning this with that intent.
[35:47.750 --> 35:53.930]  And so anyone who's ever reported to me would, you know, would say that I tell a lot of stories.
[35:55.370 --> 35:55.890]  So...
[35:57.990 --> 36:02.350]  Knowing what you do gives you a significant amount of power over other people.
[36:02.770 --> 36:09.670]  And that, um, manifests not necessarily, um, willfully.
[36:09.870 --> 36:20.610]  Because you are as familiar as you are with how people work, you're able to, um, through your not entirely conscious actions, use it.
[36:21.410 --> 36:27.290]  Um, how do you judge your own morality in those circumstances?
[36:27.850 --> 36:30.690]  So I think what you're asking is, do I use my powers for good and not evil?
[36:30.870 --> 36:32.290]  Not entirely.
[36:32.590 --> 36:34.370]  I'm saying that you use your powers.
[36:34.370 --> 36:35.450]  Yeah, so...
[36:35.450 --> 36:38.070]  And you don't always use them with full intent.
[36:38.250 --> 36:38.990]  I can answer that.
[36:39.330 --> 36:41.670]  Um, you know, it's, you're right.
[36:41.830 --> 36:44.230]  And it's very much like hacking computers, right?
[36:44.250 --> 36:45.850]  We have a lot of power as hackers.
[36:46.050 --> 36:48.870]  We've learned to do things that the normal population can't do.
[36:49.410 --> 36:52.010]  Um, and it takes a certain amount of integrity.
[36:52.210 --> 36:52.630]  And you know what?
[36:52.710 --> 37:00.570]  There are people out there, um, Um, I recently was, was working with someone, who, you know, was learning these skills.
[37:00.970 --> 37:04.190]  And that person told me that they didn't believe in ethics.
[37:04.910 --> 37:06.290]  And I was like, whew.
[37:07.010 --> 37:10.590]  At which point I started telling a few stories about the importance of integrity.
[37:12.870 --> 37:20.250]  Um, and so, I, I believe that as, you know, I've been really lucky to work with people who have a lot of integrity.
[37:20.250 --> 37:24.150]  And as they've trained me, they've told me a lot of stories about integrity.
[37:24.710 --> 37:32.210]  Um, that's not to say that there aren't people out here, in the world, that are gonna use that, um, that set of information badly.
[37:32.470 --> 37:33.710]  It's a tool, just like anything.
[37:34.010 --> 37:38.550]  You know, you can use a hammer to build a house, or you can use a hammer to destroy something.
[37:39.210 --> 37:47.730]  Um, and that said, my own integrity is such that, you know, I'm, I'm always looking to make positive change in the world.
[37:47.730 --> 37:52.810]  I want to go into the world and impact everything I touch in a positive way.
[37:52.990 --> 37:55.070]  I wanna build something beautiful rather than destroy.
[37:55.370 --> 38:10.690]  So, when I'm working with someone, whether it's in a therapeutic context, or whether it's on a team, or whether it's just, you know, meeting someone in a, in a bar or whatever, um, my intent is always to have a, to leave a positive mark on their world.
[38:11.610 --> 38:14.390]  Um, that's, that's all I can, you know, I can only speak for my integrity.
[38:14.390 --> 38:18.750]  Um, I've certainly met people out there who take this stuff and use it badly.
[38:19.530 --> 38:22.050]  Um, you know, I mentioned political speech for a reason.
[38:23.010 --> 38:23.490]  So...
[38:23.490 --> 38:23.990]  Thank you.
[38:24.190 --> 38:24.550]  Absolutely.
[38:27.750 --> 38:28.230]  Thanks.
[38:29.850 --> 38:37.430]  Um, do you find yourself less susceptible to these techniques, since you sort of know how they work?
[38:37.810 --> 38:40.350]  Um, yeah, and I find myself noticing them a lot more.
[38:40.350 --> 38:45.510]  Um, it's amazing how many, how often this stuff happens.
[38:45.930 --> 38:47.250]  You know, how often...
[38:47.250 --> 38:48.310]  Think about commercials.
[38:48.670 --> 38:49.610]  You'll often see...
[38:49.610 --> 38:50.890]  I'm gonna use an example.
[38:51.030 --> 38:53.570]  I talked about embedding things in the middle of loops, right?
[38:54.430 --> 39:01.050]  Um, you'll see a commercial that'll start a story at the beginning of the commercial, and then tell you all about the product, and then end at the end of the story.
[39:01.630 --> 39:02.070]  Right?
[39:02.610 --> 39:04.690]  This happens in the real world every day.
[39:05.130 --> 39:07.010]  And I find myself noticing that.
[39:07.510 --> 39:14.170]  You know, just like, just like when, when you guys watch a movie, you probably notice what OS is on the screen in the movie.
[39:14.290 --> 39:14.490]  Right?
[39:14.890 --> 39:15.590]  I know I do.
[39:16.090 --> 39:18.170]  Um, because you're sensitized to it.
[39:18.250 --> 39:19.010]  Because that's your world.
[39:19.430 --> 39:21.630]  So, because this is my world, I notice those things too.
[39:22.190 --> 39:33.290]  Have you ever considered trying to give sort of general advice to people who might, you know, people who watch political speeches in general, and things to look for, and ways to parse the information that's presented to them?
[39:33.290 --> 39:33.830]  I could.
[39:34.130 --> 39:36.770]  I tend not to, I tend to try not to give advice.
[39:37.130 --> 39:47.730]  Um, you know, I find that if I, if I can structure a metaphor that allows them to take what they need out of it, that's a, that's a far better way to, to handle the world.
[39:47.930 --> 39:48.230]  Touche.
[39:48.370 --> 39:48.670]  Thank you.
[39:48.850 --> 39:49.150]  Absolutely.
[39:50.570 --> 39:58.970]  There are a number of corrupt, corrupt groups that program a sort of obsessive recruiting behavior when someone is drawn into them.
[39:58.970 --> 40:03.550]  chanting cults, Werner Erhard's Est in the forum and landmark.
[40:03.750 --> 40:06.170]  They keep changing the name, but it's the same, the same scam.
[40:06.850 --> 40:11.870]  Um, what is the most effective way of, of dealing with someone that's in that state?
[40:11.970 --> 40:14.490]  Because intelligent people are vulnerable to it.
[40:14.590 --> 40:18.270]  Creative people, tuned in people that are into a lot of, a lot of worthy things.
[40:18.270 --> 40:25.930]  And that can run through a social net like wildfire and neutralize a lot of people and waste an extraordinary amount of time and energy.
[40:26.270 --> 40:35.450]  And, but what do you do when you're, you know, a friend of yours is suddenly calling up everybody in his phone book to tell them to take the next level of, you know, $500 training and whatever.
[40:36.970 --> 40:41.150]  Well, I'll tell you, and I'm sure I'm not the only person in this audience who, who has this experience.
[40:41.150 --> 40:44.810]  I have family members who have been part of multi-level marketing and pyramid schemes.
[40:45.130 --> 40:48.630]  So, I don't, I don't, and I, that's sort of the answer, the question you're asking, right?
[40:49.070 --> 40:54.370]  Um, I don't think that you can stop someone from doing something that genuinely fills a need in their own life.
[40:54.770 --> 41:00.730]  You can give them, um, you can structure things so that they can best understand.
[41:00.730 --> 41:05.770]  But if it's something that they truly need for their own growth, it's really hard to pull them out of it.
[41:05.950 --> 41:09.110]  Unless you can substitute, um, substitute it with something else.
[41:09.110 --> 41:12.070]  It's like, um, you know, it's like smoking or whatever.
[41:12.750 --> 41:14.590]  Um, it fills a need for a person.
[41:14.810 --> 41:21.630]  And unless you can find a way to give them another way to meet that need, um, you're just not going to be able to.
[41:22.070 --> 41:24.310]  I mean, I can come up and talk to me afterwards.
[41:24.530 --> 41:27.230]  I'll, I'll give you a few more concrete things.
[41:27.390 --> 41:28.750]  But that's a tough one.
[41:28.930 --> 41:32.610]  You know, you can't, that's, that's why I sort of framed it up front.
[41:33.270 --> 41:35.150]  Um, hypnosis isn't mind control.
[41:35.310 --> 41:38.410]  I can't simply make you stop doing things you've been doing.
[41:38.410 --> 41:42.550]  If you don't really want to do it, I can't change you from, you know...
[41:42.550 --> 41:45.310]  If, if you don't want to change, you're not going to no matter what I do.
[41:45.990 --> 41:50.710]  Um, I heard a, I have, there's a radio host in the south that, I listen to his podcast sometimes.
[41:50.950 --> 41:51.950]  And he has a great phrase.
[41:52.150 --> 41:55.070]  Those convinced against their will are of the same opinion still.
[41:56.470 --> 41:58.570]  It's true across all of life.
[41:58.790 --> 42:00.250]  No matter how persuasive you are.
[42:01.010 --> 42:03.850]  If you're a hardcore Republican, I'm never going to change your mind.
[42:05.950 --> 42:08.190]  Hey, um, thanks for the talk.
[42:08.490 --> 42:11.570]  Uh, I wanted to share a story and then, um...
[42:11.570 --> 42:11.730]  Please!
[42:12.510 --> 42:15.850]  Maybe ask you, uh, if you had a recommended book list.
[42:16.010 --> 42:17.130]  Because this is interesting stuff.
[42:17.570 --> 42:21.510]  But, uh, I, uh, saw Ralph Nader speak, um, last year.
[42:21.510 --> 42:24.810]  Uh, or maybe a few years ago, I don't remember.
[42:25.030 --> 42:27.850]  But he said something which I thought was interesting.
[42:28.030 --> 42:34.490]  He said, uh, the next time you watch TV, count the number of times the scene changes in, I think, ten seconds.
[42:34.750 --> 42:36.170]  And so I started doing that.
[42:36.290 --> 42:38.310]  And it was, you know, a lot of flash, flash, flash.
[42:38.590 --> 42:41.350]  And it got to the point where it was difficult to follow the TV.
[42:41.690 --> 42:43.770]  And, like, you know, I forgot what I was watching.
[42:43.890 --> 42:45.190]  I was just counting the scene changing.
[42:45.450 --> 42:47.330]  And after that, I stopped watching TV.
[42:47.930 --> 42:48.330]  Um...
[42:49.230 --> 42:50.530]  And I don't know...
[42:53.090 --> 42:55.810]  I don't know if that relates to anything.
[42:56.270 --> 42:56.850]  You know, some of the stuff...
[42:56.850 --> 42:57.050]  Thank you.
[42:57.070 --> 42:58.050]  That was a brilliantly...
[42:58.050 --> 43:01.230]  That was a brilliant story for ending this presentation.
[43:01.430 --> 43:01.930]  That was awesome.
[43:02.330 --> 43:03.010]  Yeah, and if you...
[43:03.010 --> 43:03.730]  Couldn't have asked for better.
[43:03.970 --> 43:06.690]  If you have any recommended authors, I'd love to learn some more.
[43:06.750 --> 43:08.410]  I have thousands of recommended authors.
[43:08.730 --> 43:11.170]  Um, probably the best place to start.
[43:11.410 --> 43:12.250]  Man, that's a tough one.
[43:13.130 --> 43:13.430]  What?
[43:13.650 --> 43:15.670]  Um, not on your life.
[43:17.930 --> 43:20.810]  I mentioned there are people out there who use things for...
[43:20.810 --> 43:21.870]  Use this stuff for evil.
[43:22.730 --> 43:23.230]  Um...
[43:23.230 --> 43:23.710]  I...
[43:23.710 --> 43:25.870]  I wouldn't say evil in his case, but...
[43:25.870 --> 43:26.930]  Financial gain for sure.
[43:27.970 --> 43:28.470]  Um...
[43:28.470 --> 43:29.210]  I would...
[43:29.210 --> 43:31.670]  I would definitely look at the work of Milton Erickson.
[43:31.870 --> 43:33.780]  I would definitely look at, uh...
[43:34.910 --> 43:35.990]  Man, I would...
[43:35.990 --> 43:36.510]  You know what?
[43:36.570 --> 43:38.690]  Robert Cialdini is probably the best one.
[43:38.690 --> 43:43.530]  It's not specifically NLP and hypnosis, but he did a lot of academic research on influence.
[43:43.690 --> 43:45.570]  And how to have influence on people.
[43:47.270 --> 43:47.710]  Um...
[43:47.710 --> 43:49.850]  And so his work is absolutely brilliant.
[43:51.790 --> 43:52.230]  Cialdini.
[43:52.450 --> 43:52.610]  Cialdini.
[43:52.610 --> 43:54.210]  C-I-A-L-D-I-N-I.
[43:54.310 --> 43:55.950]  Just search influence on Amazon.
[43:55.950 --> 43:57.050]  It will be the first thing you find.
[43:58.510 --> 44:00.390]  Yeah, in the same vein as the last question.
[44:01.170 --> 44:01.610]  Um...
[44:01.610 --> 44:03.570]  Not just books, but places in general.
[44:05.070 --> 44:05.510]  Um...
[44:05.510 --> 44:08.230]  I studied with the most brilliant people I've ever met.
[44:08.470 --> 44:10.970]  They were, at one point, called NLP Canada.
[44:11.170 --> 44:12.750]  I think they're changing their name to be...
[44:12.750 --> 44:13.550]  Um...
[44:13.550 --> 44:14.450]  To be integrated thinking.
[44:14.690 --> 44:16.270]  They've moved far beyond NLP.
[44:16.910 --> 44:17.970]  And, uh...
[44:17.970 --> 44:20.570]  What you'll find is a lot of people in NLP...
[44:21.610 --> 44:22.090]  Um...
[44:22.090 --> 44:22.610]  They...
[44:22.610 --> 44:24.950]  They took the work that was done 20 years ago.
[44:25.450 --> 44:28.710]  Which was interesting, but not particularly progressive.
[44:29.230 --> 44:31.890]  And they're still teaching exactly what was taught 20 years ago.
[44:32.070 --> 44:34.030]  And that's one of the things about Bandler as well.
[44:35.590 --> 44:36.090]  Um...
[44:36.090 --> 44:37.530]  What you will find...
[44:37.530 --> 44:40.310]  Is that there are a few people out there...
[44:40.310 --> 44:40.450]  Um...
[44:40.450 --> 44:42.630]  Grinder's doing some interesting work these days, but...
[44:42.630 --> 44:45.330]  He's mostly teaching corporations, from what I've seen.
[44:45.890 --> 44:48.930]  But some people who have studied new code NLP...
[44:48.930 --> 44:51.470]  And have started moving beyond that...
[44:51.470 --> 44:54.590]  To find new ways of influencing the world.
[44:55.530 --> 44:55.870]  Um...
[44:55.870 --> 44:57.150]  NLP Canada is my favorite.
[44:57.510 --> 44:58.150]  They have a...
[44:58.150 --> 44:59.370]  They have the most incredible blog.
[44:59.590 --> 45:00.190]  You should check it out.
[45:00.290 --> 45:02.930]  I think it's nlpcanadatraining.blogspot.com.
[45:02.930 --> 45:04.170]  I'll put it on the wiki as well.
[45:04.910 --> 45:05.130]  It's...
[45:05.130 --> 45:06.570]  It's totally worth checking out.
[45:06.810 --> 45:08.190]  You haven't put up the wiki, have you?
[45:09.230 --> 45:09.430]  Hmm?
[45:09.910 --> 45:11.710]  I don't think you haven't put the wiki up on the screen.
[45:11.730 --> 45:13.230]  The wiki for the conference, I mean.
[45:14.450 --> 45:14.850]  The...
[45:14.850 --> 45:14.910]  The...
[45:14.910 --> 45:16.470]  Yeah, the hope wiki.
[45:17.370 --> 45:17.770]  Sorry.
[45:18.090 --> 45:18.370]  Not...
[45:18.370 --> 45:19.750]  Not my own personal wiki or anything.
[45:19.930 --> 45:20.010]  Yeah.
[45:20.170 --> 45:22.550]  I'll post the slides and everything else on the hope wiki.
[45:24.610 --> 45:27.530]  It's nlpcanadatraining.blogspot.com, I believe.
[45:28.210 --> 45:29.390]  Again, I'll post the link.
[45:32.680 --> 45:36.540]  I'm familiar with NLP from people like John Grinder.
[45:36.880 --> 45:37.060]  Mm-hm.
[45:37.340 --> 45:39.620]  And, you know, other people.
[45:39.880 --> 45:43.000]  Like, I mean, even Anthony Robbins is an NLP guy, basically.
[45:43.600 --> 45:43.960]  Okay.
[45:44.860 --> 45:46.760]  Okay, well, I mean...
[45:46.760 --> 45:47.000]  Yeah.
[45:47.160 --> 45:47.920]  No, absolutely.
[45:48.040 --> 45:48.780]  That's where he came from.
[45:48.940 --> 45:49.800]  Would you say that...
[45:49.800 --> 45:53.280]  Because John Grinder has a program called Double Binds.
[45:53.280 --> 45:58.260]  I don't know if you're familiar with that, but it's like putting people into a situation of between a rock and a hard place.
[45:58.320 --> 46:00.660]  Double bind is something that Milton Erickson used to love.
[46:01.060 --> 46:01.180]  Okay.
[46:01.180 --> 46:02.280]  And the double bind is simply...
[46:02.960 --> 46:06.520]  It was actually a concept created by a sociologist named Gregory Bateson.
[46:06.940 --> 46:10.780]  Bateson was the first person to ever put forth a theory of how schizophrenia happened.
[46:10.920 --> 46:17.080]  And he said schizophrenia happens when you're young and you're developing, and you're put in a situation that's called a double bind.
[46:17.620 --> 46:18.780]  And it's simply this.
[46:19.140 --> 46:22.720]  You're in a relationship you cannot leave, as in with your parents.
[46:22.720 --> 46:25.260]  You know, when you're four, you can't pack up and walk away from home.
[46:25.900 --> 46:28.900]  And you're given a choice in which neither choice is acceptable.
[46:30.400 --> 46:36.160]  In hypnosis, we use it often to put you in a situation where you have to comply.
[46:36.540 --> 46:45.800]  For example, you may not know, and you may not know exactly which is going to happen, but let me ask you a question.
[46:45.800 --> 46:48.840]  Would you like to go into a trance now or in five minutes?
[46:50.180 --> 46:51.300]  It's a double bind.
[46:52.020 --> 46:52.980]  It's either or.
[46:53.160 --> 46:53.880]  And it's a question.
[46:53.880 --> 46:55.920]  You cannot avoid answering it.
[46:57.440 --> 47:01.140]  You can say neither, but the unconscious doesn't really work that way.
[47:01.380 --> 47:01.660]  It's...
[47:01.660 --> 47:06.180]  Those sorts of double binds in a situation are very powerful.
[47:06.320 --> 47:07.800]  And it's simply a communication technique.
[47:08.460 --> 47:10.080]  Grinder has done a lot of other work.
[47:10.320 --> 47:15.720]  But he really, you know, he and Bandler pioneered the use of that, watching Erickson and bringing it.
[47:15.960 --> 47:21.280]  So it's like a manager telling me, would you like to stay up all night and finish that, or have it done by tomorrow kind of thing?
[47:21.580 --> 47:22.240]  Nicely done.
[47:22.360 --> 47:23.560]  So is that...
[47:23.560 --> 47:25.520]  You haven't reported to me, have you?
[47:27.820 --> 47:30.760]  So would you consider that the evil side, the dark side?
[47:30.760 --> 47:31.640]  No, I...
[47:31.640 --> 47:32.120]  You know what?
[47:33.280 --> 47:33.640]  Um...
[47:33.640 --> 47:33.900]  So...
[47:33.900 --> 47:34.500]  So let me...
[47:34.500 --> 47:35.420]  Let me do it this way.
[47:39.120 --> 47:39.480]  Well...
[47:39.480 --> 47:39.620]  Yeah.
[47:40.920 --> 47:41.280]  Um...
[47:41.280 --> 47:41.660]  So...
[47:41.660 --> 47:42.480]  So how about...
[47:42.480 --> 47:43.840]  How about a different one?
[47:44.000 --> 47:48.240]  That's a great example, but I can't say I've ever used that one specifically, but...
[47:48.680 --> 47:49.040]  Um...
[47:49.040 --> 47:50.360]  You know...
[47:50.360 --> 47:51.260]  I may now.
[47:51.460 --> 47:52.300]  Thank you for that.
[47:53.620 --> 47:53.980]  Um...
[47:53.980 --> 48:00.020]  I'm trying to think of a great example where I used one, and I can't think of a good one off the top of my head, but...
[48:00.020 --> 48:00.500]  Um...
[48:00.500 --> 48:05.060]  You know, maybe something like, you know, would you like to take the training course this quarter or next?
[48:06.180 --> 48:07.220]  Not giving you the...
[48:07.220 --> 48:09.460]  You know, not giving you the opportunity not to do it, right?
[48:10.280 --> 48:10.640]  Um...
[48:10.640 --> 48:10.960]  I...
[48:10.960 --> 48:17.120]  I really believe in the growth of my people when I'm managing, so I often use this to try and get them to develop themselves.
[48:18.620 --> 48:18.980]  Um...
[48:18.980 --> 48:20.480]  Just, you know, good and evil again, right?
[48:22.120 --> 48:23.360]  Have you ever noticed...
[48:23.360 --> 48:23.700]  Um...
[48:23.700 --> 48:24.120]  I mean, you...
[48:24.120 --> 48:26.160]  You watch everybody's conversation and hear it.
[48:26.220 --> 48:31.380]  Have you ever noticed people getting a higher rating, or more success in life, or one thing I was thinking of...
[48:31.380 --> 48:32.180]  Letters to the Editor.
[48:32.360 --> 48:35.860]  Do those happen to be chosen when they're more in keeping with what you've been saying?
[48:37.040 --> 48:37.420]  Um...
[48:37.420 --> 48:40.000]  I don't know if I would say a higher rating, or...
[48:40.000 --> 48:40.440]  I can't...
[48:40.440 --> 48:44.720]  I don't ever read Letters to the Editor, try and stay away from the paper generally, but...
[48:59.380 --> 48:59.760]  Um...
[48:59.760 --> 49:01.080]  Rhetoric in the way that Plato meant it.
[49:01.780 --> 49:04.740]  You know, rhetoric was an honored position in the...
[49:04.740 --> 49:05.780]  In the days of the Greeks.
[49:06.720 --> 49:07.980]  And political speech is...
[49:07.980 --> 49:09.120]  Is our version of that.
[49:09.340 --> 49:09.640]  And...
[49:09.640 --> 49:12.720]  Yeah, you see this in political speech all the time, because it's so powerful.
[49:13.520 --> 49:13.960]  Um...
[49:13.960 --> 49:14.700]  And...
[49:14.700 --> 49:16.260]  And so, in terms of...
[49:16.260 --> 49:22.680]  You know, people getting better and better, and more successful in life, as they learn to structure their communication so people can hear it, absolutely.
[49:23.980 --> 49:24.400]  Um...
[49:24.400 --> 49:25.020]  You know, you...
[49:25.600 --> 49:35.020]  This is a world that relies on interpersonal relationships and human communication, and the better you get at those things, the more successful you're ultimately going to be.
[49:35.200 --> 49:37.920]  Does that mean that you do this and you instantly become successful?
[49:38.080 --> 49:38.700]  No, not...
[49:38.700 --> 49:39.480]  Not in a...
[49:39.480 --> 49:40.700]  Not in a long shot.
[49:40.900 --> 49:41.560]  I mean, you can...
[49:41.560 --> 49:46.520]  You can fail just as easily as a good communicator as a bad one, but I would say it gives you a better chance.
[49:47.280 --> 49:48.060]  Different question.
[49:48.400 --> 49:49.140]  Do you...
[49:49.140 --> 49:49.820]  Um...
[49:49.820 --> 49:58.260]  Do people go to school to learn how to become political, I guess, assistants to help get somebody elected, and people go to school to learn how to do advertising?
[49:58.440 --> 50:00.860]  Is this stuff part of the curriculum in these cases?
[50:01.000 --> 50:01.840]  No, absolutely not.
[50:02.000 --> 50:03.980]  I've never seen anything like this taught in school.
[50:04.440 --> 50:04.840]  Um...
[50:04.840 --> 50:05.340]  I was lucky.
[50:05.460 --> 50:06.180]  I went to a...
[50:07.060 --> 50:07.460]  Um...
[50:07.460 --> 50:11.580]  To a university that had a rhetoric course, which was interesting, but even a lot of...
[50:11.580 --> 50:15.780]  Even a lot of philosophy departments have dropped rhetoric as a useful set of tools.
[50:16.300 --> 50:17.020]  So, I...
[50:17.020 --> 50:17.620]  I think this...
[50:17.620 --> 50:19.160]  I think learning to communicate...
[50:19.160 --> 50:21.400]  we were never really taught how to communicate.
[50:21.760 --> 50:27.260]  You know, in grade one and two, we learned how to spell and how to write, but we didn't learn what to write in order to make someone get the point.
[50:28.160 --> 50:28.520]  Um...
[50:28.520 --> 50:29.040]  And I'm...
[50:29.040 --> 50:32.720]  I'm often disturbed by the fact that we can learn the mechanics of the unit...
[50:32.720 --> 50:36.980]  of the way the world works, without learning how the world really works and how to...
[50:36.980 --> 50:38.140]  how to really move within it.
[50:40.300 --> 50:40.860]  I've, uh...
[50:40.860 --> 50:45.060]  read about the use of the double bind in relation to fear appeals.
[50:45.820 --> 50:46.640]  In relation to what?
[50:46.760 --> 50:47.260]  Fear appeals.
[50:47.860 --> 50:48.580]  What do you mean?
[50:49.160 --> 50:50.300]  Exploitation of fear.
[50:51.020 --> 50:51.920]  Yeah, you can.
[50:52.340 --> 50:52.780]  Um...
[50:52.780 --> 50:53.840]  You certainly see it in...
[50:53.840 --> 50:54.180]  Does that have any synergy?
[50:54.500 --> 50:54.840]  Hmm?
[50:55.320 --> 50:57.280]  Does that have any synergy between the two?
[50:57.700 --> 50:58.180]  It...
[50:58.180 --> 50:59.300]  It's a communication technique.
[50:59.540 --> 50:59.940]  You can...
[50:59.940 --> 51:01.280]  You can use it to...
[51:01.280 --> 51:02.580]  to appeal to fear.
[51:02.720 --> 51:04.240]  You can use it to appeal to love.
[51:04.400 --> 51:05.320]  You can use...
[51:05.320 --> 51:05.820]  You know...
[51:05.820 --> 51:08.300]  I can use any of these techniques to do...
[51:09.480 --> 51:09.960]  Um...
[51:09.960 --> 51:10.300]  To...
[51:10.300 --> 51:10.720]  To...
[51:10.720 --> 51:11.960]  It's about your agenda, right?
[51:11.980 --> 51:12.720]  It's about your intent.
[51:12.720 --> 51:15.660]  If I have a bad intent, if I want to scare you...
[51:15.660 --> 51:16.620]  I can scare you.
[51:16.700 --> 51:18.520]  Whether I'm good at this or not, I can scare you.
[51:18.820 --> 51:19.120]  Right?
[51:20.340 --> 51:20.780]  Um...
[51:20.780 --> 51:22.320]  It's simply about what you intend.
[51:23.060 --> 51:25.980]  And these are simply tools that make you better at what you intend.
[51:26.620 --> 51:27.060]  So...
[51:27.060 --> 51:29.940]  Hopefully I intend that everyone out here has...
[51:29.940 --> 51:32.340]  Good intent and is out to make the world a better place.
[51:32.660 --> 51:33.980]  There are some people who aren't.
[51:44.440 --> 51:44.880]  Um...
[51:44.880 --> 51:46.100]  I think we appeared...
[51:46.100 --> 51:46.220]  Oh!
[51:46.360 --> 51:46.480]  Wait!
[51:46.640 --> 51:46.800]  Wait!
[51:46.800 --> 51:46.900]  Wait!
[51:46.900 --> 51:47.560]  We got one more!
[51:50.320 --> 51:50.860]  Yup!
[51:50.980 --> 51:51.620]  This is the last one.
[51:52.300 --> 51:53.840]  So my question is...
[51:53.840 --> 51:54.320]  Uh...
[51:54.320 --> 51:56.160]  You mentioned a lot of the techniques involve...
[51:56.160 --> 51:56.360]  Uh...
[51:56.360 --> 51:58.440]  Introducing ambiguity and...
[51:58.440 --> 51:59.860]  Appealing to the unconscious.
[52:00.360 --> 52:02.620]  And so what hope is there for...
[52:02.620 --> 52:04.980]  More rational thought in...
[52:04.980 --> 52:06.180]  In the public sphere?
[52:07.440 --> 52:07.980]  And...
[52:07.980 --> 52:09.900]  Can these tools also...
[52:09.900 --> 52:12.560]  Help induce rational thought and thinking...
[52:12.560 --> 52:13.720]  Logically instead of...
[52:14.200 --> 52:14.700]  Based on emotions?
[52:15.180 --> 52:15.440]  So...
[52:16.120 --> 52:16.600]  I'm...
[52:16.600 --> 52:17.960]  I'm all for rational thought.
[52:18.860 --> 52:19.340]  And...
[52:19.340 --> 52:20.020]  Um...
[52:20.020 --> 52:20.660]  I am a...
[52:20.660 --> 52:20.940]  You know...
[52:20.940 --> 52:24.340]  I was a philosophy major and I love computers as well as the next guy.
[52:24.860 --> 52:28.340]  But what I've noticed is that this is a universe or a world...
[52:28.340 --> 52:30.680]  Where communication matters more than the idea.
[52:31.120 --> 52:36.560]  We've all, I'm sure, been in the discussion where we knew we had the best idea and we could prove it.
[52:37.120 --> 52:41.540]  But we lost the discussion because the other person, you know, was better at talking.
[52:42.500 --> 52:47.340]  Anybody who's ever had a long discussion with a sales person, I'm sure, knows what I'm talking about.
[52:48.080 --> 52:48.240]  You know?
[52:48.860 --> 52:49.300]  And...
[52:49.900 --> 52:50.340]  So...
[52:50.340 --> 52:53.680]  Yeah, I believe that we should be doing more things with rational thought.
[52:53.900 --> 52:55.940]  But ultimately, this is a world where...
[52:55.940 --> 52:58.920]  The better you convince someone that your idea is right...
[52:58.920 --> 53:01.560]  Even if your idea is wrong, you usually win.
[53:01.760 --> 53:05.560]  So, hopefully, the people who have good ideas learn to communicate better.
[53:05.720 --> 53:07.260]  That's traditionally not been the case.
[53:07.260 --> 53:12.440]  Traditionally, the people with the best ideas are hidden in some ivory tower, unable to communicate it.
[53:12.700 --> 53:17.180]  And I would love to see more of those people get out in the world and share those ideas in a persuasive way.
[53:18.900 --> 53:19.640]  All right?
[53:20.260 --> 53:21.140]  Thanks very much.
[53:21.140 --> 53:21.260]  Thanks very much.
[53:21.260 --> 53:22.240]  Thank you.