[00:02.670 --> 00:04.550]  And if you don't, I'll tell you a little bit.
[00:04.610 --> 00:05.610]  We're the Cult of the Dead Cow.
[00:05.890 --> 00:06.810]  I'm Deth Veggie.
[00:06.950 --> 00:08.830]  I'm the Minister of Propaganda for the CDC.
[00:10.950 --> 00:12.430]  CDC, a little bit about it.
[00:12.510 --> 00:13.750]  We were started in 1984.
[00:13.910 --> 00:17.070]  We're the oldest still active group in the Hacker Underground.
[00:18.650 --> 00:20.130]  And we've been involved with things.
[00:20.630 --> 00:31.070]  We've continually been publishing an e-zine since 1984 as well, which is available on our website, as well as the brand new website up above, in beta.
[00:32.270 --> 00:32.590]  Secret.
[00:32.770 --> 00:34.690]  And we've had some other things.
[00:34.810 --> 00:39.630]  I mean, Mudge, who has been dealing with stuff like the L0pht crack type stuff, issues at Loft.
[00:40.850 --> 00:42.030]  Various members have been doing other things.
[00:42.270 --> 00:52.270]  And part of what we wanted to talk to you about is some other stuff that we've been doing that doesn't really have too much to do... well, it's got some stuff to do with hacking, it's got some stuff to do with the files, but it's more some political things that we've been involved with.
[00:52.590 --> 00:54.290]  But let me give the introductions first.
[00:54.610 --> 00:57.770]  On the left, we have the...
[01:01.870 --> 01:03.290]  Oh, you want me to say something, actually?
[01:03.490 --> 01:03.950]  No, no, no.
[01:03.970 --> 01:05.730]  The official grumpy old man of CDC.
[01:06.030 --> 01:06.870]  Yeah, yeah, one of them.
[01:06.970 --> 01:07.310]  One of them.
[01:07.390 --> 01:08.030]  The Night Stalker.
[01:08.090 --> 01:08.390]  One of them.
[01:09.610 --> 01:12.390]  The CDC Uber Hacker Laureate, Mudge.
[01:17.070 --> 01:20.610]  CDC Grand High Sifu Men Without a Face Tweety Fish.
[01:24.170 --> 01:27.110]  Our Foreign Minister Oxblood Ruffin.
[01:30.650 --> 01:32.730]  CDC's High Priestess Lady Carolyn.
[01:35.830 --> 01:38.910]  Our Special Counsel for the Offense Sunspot.
[01:46.000 --> 01:47.460]  Do we have a title for you?
[01:47.640 --> 01:48.460]  Yeah, Director of Counterintelligence.
[01:48.460 --> 01:50.720]  Oh, the Director of Counterintelligence, Count Zero.
[01:51.280 --> 01:52.520]  On the far right.
[01:52.940 --> 01:53.260]  Yay!
[01:54.000 --> 01:55.740]  Okay, so we're going to start out...
[01:55.740 --> 01:58.140]  I'm going to have Oxblood tell you a little bit about what we've been working on.
[01:58.200 --> 02:03.740]  This is something that's been really hush-hush for reasons that will soon become clear.
[02:03.740 --> 02:07.600]  And I'm also... I want to note that there's... we really can't say that much about it.
[02:07.700 --> 02:11.740]  We're going to talk about it a little bit, but it's really something that...
[02:12.420 --> 02:13.640]  Well, you'll find out.
[02:14.020 --> 02:15.160]  Lives are at stake.
[02:15.500 --> 02:15.920]  What?
[02:16.380 --> 02:17.460]  Lives are at stake.
[02:17.540 --> 02:18.640]  Lives are at stake, literally.
[02:20.120 --> 02:22.540]  And with that, go to it.
[02:22.680 --> 02:23.320]  Mr. Ruffin.
[02:24.420 --> 02:25.000]  Hey, everybody.
[02:25.180 --> 02:31.860]  First, I'd like to thank Emmanuel and all the folks from 2600 for having us at the Con and doing a great job.
[02:31.980 --> 02:32.420]  Thanks a lot.
[02:38.510 --> 02:50.830]  Recently, the Cult of the Dead Cow has been associated with a group of Chinese Democratic advocates and computer scientists, primarily living and working in the People's Republic of China.
[02:51.110 --> 02:57.570]  There are also three members living in North America who are very active in fundraising and in technical support.
[02:57.570 --> 02:57.630]  A group.
[02:59.130 --> 03:04.190]  This group is called the Cult, pardon me, called the Hong Kong Blondes.
[03:04.310 --> 03:08.370]  The name itself comes from Hong Kongese slang for gold.
[03:09.130 --> 03:16.110]  Gold is the essential, most primary substance of private property.
[03:16.110 --> 03:19.310]  And as such, it's considered to be one of the cornerstones of democracy.
[03:20.110 --> 03:22.990]  Hence, that's how they ended up taking that name.
[03:24.890 --> 03:30.030]  Just a little bit of background for those of you maybe not as familiar with the incidents around Tiananmen Square.
[03:30.030 --> 03:36.290]  It has been a few years now, but a lot of the current members of the Blondes came out of that whole movement.
[03:37.410 --> 03:42.430]  Tiananmen Square is widely known as a killing field.
[03:42.430 --> 03:51.850]  It's really, there were several hundred, mostly students, but also political and social activists.
[03:53.530 --> 03:56.730]  It was a widely supported movement.
[03:57.150 --> 04:00.050]  Even throughout the country, it gained in a lot of areas.
[04:01.250 --> 04:14.190]  Initially, it was set up for primarily students and social activists to air their grievances and make certain suggestions as to how they would like to see their society restructured.
[04:15.690 --> 04:30.950]  It's also a common ploy for the Chinese government to flush out dissidents, to encourage them to express their views, and then essentially imprison them or find out at least who they are and begin to monitor them.
[04:31.990 --> 04:40.210]  At any rate, Tiananmen Square took on a whole life of its own and it started gaining overwhelming support.
[04:40.370 --> 04:45.950]  People were coming, not just intellectuals and students, but people were coming from all over the country and supporting it.
[04:46.090 --> 04:52.270]  It really freaked out the government to the extent that they just basically closed the whole operation down.
[04:52.410 --> 05:06.030]  They tried to have the military go in at first with not much success because the local garrison pretty much was on board in some ways politically and didn't want to participate in shooting their own countrymen.
[05:07.030 --> 05:15.650]  They eventually had troops come in from the north who were in fact responsible for all of the bloodshed in Tiananmen Square.
[05:16.030 --> 05:24.370]  As a result, I mean, we all pretty much know what happened, but a lot of the leadership who were not killed or imprisoned fled.
[05:24.990 --> 05:27.670]  A number went to Hong Kong and left from there.
[05:27.970 --> 05:34.650]  And others had student visas, were over here and did not go back or got over here.
[05:34.770 --> 05:45.310]  I know quite a few students I met in 1989 when I was working at the United Nations, ended up coming to speak there and went to Princeton, Harvard.
[05:45.610 --> 05:47.750]  There were quite a few students at Columbia also.
[05:47.750 --> 06:00.370]  So just because Tiananmen Square defined a certain period of time and brutality did not mean that the democratic movement was totally squelched.
[06:00.390 --> 06:04.690]  It just went deeper and deeper underground, but it's been very active over all these years.
[06:06.610 --> 06:08.610]  That's initially how I made contact.
[06:08.810 --> 06:11.630]  As I said, when I was working at the UN, I met some of the leaders there.
[06:11.770 --> 06:14.130]  And over time, I kept in touch with them.
[06:15.110 --> 06:26.070]  A couple of years ago, I was asking one of my contacts from Princeton if he had ever thought of, you know, do you guys use the net or for any of your advocacy work.
[06:27.330 --> 06:30.910]  And it sort of, you know, struck a bell with him.
[06:30.990 --> 06:34.050]  And he was thinking, well, gee, now there's not a bad idea.
[06:34.530 --> 06:43.270]  And the next thing we knew, he was getting in touch with some of his colleagues and associates who were computer scientists and also very sympathetic to democratic struggle.
[06:44.670 --> 06:47.630]  And there was a gestation period.
[06:48.650 --> 06:54.790]  Formally, the Hong Kong Blondes started in September of 1996.
[06:55.590 --> 07:02.070]  And we've taken on a role offering strategic advice to them.
[07:02.590 --> 07:03.650]  Strategic alliance.
[07:06.410 --> 07:12.610]  I think one thing that's very important to realize that we're all in the same community.
[07:13.250 --> 07:15.870]  The hacking community is an international community.
[07:17.510 --> 07:31.850]  And to a certain extent, although there are certainly a lot of difficult situations that people have to deal with in this country, the worst thing that's going to happen if you take a caller is you'll probably go to a federal penitentiary for a few years.
[07:31.850 --> 07:41.310]  The worst thing that's going to happen to you in PRC if you're picked up for one of these intrusions is you'll take a bit of a beating and then you'll take a bullet in the back of your head.
[07:41.450 --> 07:50.510]  There's no soft treatment for anybody involved in what they would see as treason, political treason.
[07:52.550 --> 07:55.290]  We will be doing some further work with the Blondes.
[07:55.450 --> 08:05.550]  It's very difficult really at this point to discuss some of the specific things that are being worked on.
[08:06.530 --> 08:12.670]  But we did wish to announce that we have in fact formed the strategic alliance with the Hong Kong Blondes.
[08:12.670 --> 08:15.570]  We will be working with them in future and we're very honored to do so.
[08:16.290 --> 08:21.770]  And in the upcoming months we'll be issuing some press releases as to the work that we are doing with them.
[08:22.130 --> 08:22.970]  Thank you very much.
[08:31.500 --> 08:36.000]  I did want to add that some of you are probably like, well, what's the relevance to us?
[08:36.060 --> 08:56.680]  I think what you need to realize is that the way that these people, the dissidents in China, very similar to hackers in the United States all over the world, it's the same sort of mentality where we would be viewed as dissidents in the PRC.
[08:57.320 --> 08:58.760]  And take Bernie S.
[08:58.920 --> 09:02.420]  I mean, what happened to him is absolutely horrible and it's outrageous.
[09:02.940 --> 09:05.460]  But the same sort of thing in the PRC.
[09:05.640 --> 09:06.960]  He wouldn't be taken to prison.
[09:07.140 --> 09:09.180]  They'd take him out back and put a bullet in his head.
[09:09.460 --> 09:13.480]  I mean, it's a very different, a very scary thing.
[09:13.480 --> 09:15.980]  And that's part of why we've been working with them.
[09:15.980 --> 09:24.080]  I mean, I've always... usually when I go around to... when I speak at conferences and stuff, it's usually on First Amendment issues, freedom of speech, that sort of thing.
[09:25.020 --> 09:27.840]  And that's how we first got involved with them because this is a...
[09:27.840 --> 09:31.620]  I mean, it's the largest country in the world, population-wise.
[09:32.160 --> 09:39.460]  An incredible amount of people that do not have this very basic freedom to express themselves.
[09:39.720 --> 09:43.620]  And it's pretty scary what's going on over there.
[09:43.620 --> 09:47.480]  But anyway, I'll stop ranting and let somebody else rant.
[09:48.720 --> 09:51.020]  And, Lady Carolyn, you had something to say?
[09:51.320 --> 09:53.500]  I have two announcements and one celebration.
[09:53.860 --> 09:56.400]  We all know that the CDA was struck down early this year.
[09:56.640 --> 09:57.820]  This please CDC very much.
[10:02.750 --> 10:06.910]  And the second announcement is our new website is up, cultdeadcow.com.
[10:07.410 --> 10:08.210]  You're looking at it.
[10:08.210 --> 10:09.030]  Love me, behind us.
[10:09.110 --> 10:09.690]  It's brand new.
[10:09.830 --> 10:11.090]  It's hot off the presses.
[10:11.510 --> 10:12.270]  Show them Vanna.
[10:14.130 --> 10:14.490]  And...
[10:14.490 --> 10:16.290]  Oh, are we talking about...
[10:16.290 --> 10:17.370]  Thank you, Vanna.
[10:17.770 --> 10:18.430]  Can we talk about EFF?
[10:18.710 --> 10:19.070]  What?
[10:19.230 --> 10:19.750]  We're talking about EFFF?
[10:20.950 --> 10:21.310]  Um...
[10:21.310 --> 10:25.190]  EFF.Org has given us control over their pub underground...
[10:25.190 --> 10:25.730]  Oh, the EFF.
[10:25.810 --> 10:26.610]  ...underground digest.
[10:27.050 --> 10:27.370]  Yeah, sorry.
[10:27.790 --> 10:30.050]  Yeah, we're going to be taking over the...
[10:30.750 --> 10:31.970]  Oh, you want to tell about it?
[10:32.210 --> 10:32.850]  I'm sorry.
[10:32.850 --> 10:34.010]  We're taking it over.
[10:34.230 --> 10:34.970]  We're organizing it.
[10:35.070 --> 10:35.750]  We're cleaning it up.
[10:35.890 --> 10:37.290]  And we need all of your old text files.
[10:37.550 --> 10:40.590]  We're presenting the directory, you know, advertisement free as usual.
[10:40.870 --> 10:42.250]  We want to maintain it the way it is.
[10:42.350 --> 10:44.650]  But we have a lot of old text files and I want more.
[10:44.990 --> 10:45.630]  I need more.
[10:45.770 --> 10:47.910]  So if you have any, send them on up and we'll include them in the archive.
[10:49.030 --> 10:52.710]  This is the heritage of the hacker community in a lot of ways.
[10:53.870 --> 10:57.190]  And things are disappearing that are important.
[11:00.350 --> 11:01.070]  Do you have anything else?
[11:04.510 --> 11:05.410]  Oh my God.
[11:07.050 --> 11:08.110]  That never happened.
[11:08.310 --> 11:08.830]  We weren't there.
[11:09.910 --> 11:11.070]  Did you have anything else said?
[11:11.910 --> 11:11.930]  Kevin's here in spirit.
[11:12.190 --> 11:12.610]  Oh.
[11:12.930 --> 11:13.850]  Kevin's here in spirit.
[11:14.050 --> 11:14.310]  Kevin's here in spirit.
[11:14.310 --> 11:14.850]  Oh, Kevin's here in spirit.
[11:15.250 --> 11:16.670]  The Grandmaster Ratt.
[11:20.750 --> 11:21.950]  Was that all you wanted to say?
[11:22.630 --> 11:23.370]  Oh, okay.
[11:23.530 --> 11:29.390]  And then we had from a high rantist and grumpy old man, the Night Stalker, who had something to add.
[11:29.390 --> 11:47.190]  Well, in light of what Oxblood was saying about freedom and being a dissident, many years ago when I was on Quantum Link, the old Commodore-only data service, I had been basically just shooting my mouth off about desktop publishing, doing it yourself, that sort of thing.
[11:47.190 --> 11:53.050]  And I got a rather plaintive bit of email from someone who was a junior high school student.
[11:53.050 --> 11:59.330]  And their local junior high school paper was the most bland piece of crap imaginable.
[12:00.190 --> 12:08.370]  Front page news was, this week's lunch schedule will include, you know, creamed corn, roast beef.
[12:08.410 --> 12:09.930]  Hey, there's nothing boring about creamed corn.
[12:10.150 --> 12:11.950]  Yeah, well, you're from San Francisco.
[12:12.550 --> 12:13.810]  You're from San Francisco.
[12:13.910 --> 12:15.770]  What they do there is unspeakable with creamed corn.
[12:16.030 --> 12:17.110]  So we just don't want to know.
[12:17.930 --> 12:19.410]  Creamed corn a la ecstasy.
[12:19.850 --> 12:20.550]  Yeah, right.
[12:21.630 --> 12:34.190]  So basically this kid wrote to me and wanted to know how to go about putting out his own newspaper, underground newspaper, using his funky little Commodore 64 and his funky little MPS 801 printer.
[12:35.010 --> 12:36.650]  And I gave him some advice.
[12:37.610 --> 12:41.290]  And it was basically, you know, you don't need to be flashy, you don't need a lot of graphics.
[12:41.630 --> 12:43.390]  You just need to tell the truth.
[12:46.130 --> 12:48.210]  And, you know, don't publish rumor.
[12:48.490 --> 12:50.990]  You know, you can publish rumor, but say, okay, this is a rumor.
[12:51.830 --> 12:54.310]  If you publish something as fact, get the facts.
[12:54.390 --> 12:55.150]  Make sure it's true.
[12:55.930 --> 12:57.370]  And he went out and did this.
[12:57.510 --> 13:01.370]  He went out and he had this funky little old eight-pin dot matrix printer.
[13:02.450 --> 13:03.950]  Did a weekly paper.
[13:04.210 --> 13:06.650]  Both sides of the sheet were covered with information.
[13:08.550 --> 13:10.790]  You know, things that actually happened in school.
[13:10.790 --> 13:14.110]  Important phone numbers like, you know, gay and lesbian youth phone numbers.
[13:14.270 --> 13:16.650]  I mean, where he was at was the buckle of the Bible belt.
[13:17.210 --> 13:19.370]  And them people were not appreciated.
[13:20.350 --> 13:23.070]  So by, you know, he gave information that was needed.
[13:23.290 --> 13:27.810]  Well, the reaction that occurred from the school officials was very gratifying.
[13:28.070 --> 13:30.010]  They locked the school down.
[13:31.950 --> 13:33.770]  They were looking through lockers.
[13:33.910 --> 13:35.290]  They were doing all this sort of stuff.
[13:35.450 --> 13:40.130]  They wanted someone to rat this kid out for having the balls to exercise.
[13:40.130 --> 13:41.750]  that First Amendment right.
[13:44.930 --> 13:59.790]  And hearing about this, what occurred to me is that, in many respects, being in a repressive regime, like a junior high school or a college or, you know, working at a job, 99% of the people will sit there and take it.
[13:59.890 --> 14:01.470]  And they will, you know, endure it.
[14:01.470 --> 14:05.770]  But it's that one guy who says, no, I'm not going to take this ship.
[14:05.950 --> 14:06.430]  They keep it.
[14:06.450 --> 14:07.870]  I'm going to do something about it.
[14:07.990 --> 14:13.810]  And goes out and does that little, you know, one-sheet newsletter that winds up, you know, in the men's room stalls in the bathroom.
[14:15.210 --> 14:18.150]  Or, you know, distribute it anonymously through the inter-office mail system.
[14:19.790 --> 14:23.210]  And this shows that, you know, the individual can resist.
[14:24.310 --> 14:27.190]  You know, you don't have to bloat the World Trade Center to resist.
[14:27.530 --> 14:36.330]  You don't have to douse yourself with gasoline in the middle of, you know, Lafayette Park to say that, you know, the fat boy in the White House is a jerk.
[14:38.810 --> 14:40.310]  You know, you do what you can.
[14:40.890 --> 14:48.210]  And that ripple effect, because that one kid in school, he showed the rest of them that, yes, you know, you don't have to accept the party line.
[14:48.490 --> 14:49.790]  You can do something yourself.
[14:49.810 --> 14:50.990]  You can be an individual.
[14:51.690 --> 14:52.850]  You can be free.
[14:55.370 --> 15:02.330]  And that was the important lesson that he taught me, is that no matter what, no matter how bad it is, you can be free.
[15:02.330 --> 15:03.730]  You can express yourself.
[15:03.890 --> 15:05.170]  You can be a free man.
[15:06.110 --> 15:08.630]  Now, as the late Robert Heinlein said...
[15:08.630 --> 15:09.270]  Or a woman.
[15:09.910 --> 15:10.750]  Or a woman.
[15:10.850 --> 15:11.250]  Yes, Carolyn.
[15:11.430 --> 15:11.750]  Thank you.
[15:12.070 --> 15:12.170]  Yes.
[15:12.430 --> 15:13.010]  That was me.
[15:13.230 --> 15:13.830]  Free person.
[15:14.110 --> 15:14.830]  Free person.
[15:15.250 --> 15:19.830]  As the late Robert Heinlein said, the only thing you can do to a free man is kill him.
[15:22.390 --> 15:25.290]  And right now, everyone in this room, we are free people.
[15:26.950 --> 15:34.050]  And how long we remain free is a matter of how much energy we're willing to put into that freedom, to maintain that freedom.
[15:34.350 --> 15:38.650]  The people that were on here previously had a very good point.
[15:38.770 --> 15:39.550]  Register to vote.
[15:39.690 --> 15:40.530]  It's painless.
[15:41.750 --> 15:45.690]  The worst thing that can happen is that they'll want you for jury duty.
[15:46.810 --> 15:50.270]  And if you can't get out of jury duty, you don't deserve the title of hacker.
[15:50.270 --> 15:50.990]  Okay, guys?
[15:54.210 --> 15:57.370]  Anyone that can't get out of jury duty is not fit to judge me.
[15:59.630 --> 16:01.170]  So, think about it.
[16:03.170 --> 16:04.170]  Register to vote.
[16:04.330 --> 16:06.110]  Write the damn letters to the congressman.
[16:07.010 --> 16:11.650]  This is analogous to people who write letters to the television networks.
[16:12.170 --> 16:17.970]  The formula is, a TV network receives one letter in praise of a television show.
[16:17.970 --> 16:23.870]  They equate that to 10,000 people out there who like the show but can't be bothered to write.
[16:24.530 --> 16:29.010]  The same thing applies to Congress and the Senate, both federally and locally.
[16:30.070 --> 16:36.490]  A single voice has an incredible amount of power to a congressman or a legislature.
[16:37.470 --> 16:45.830]  And if you don't take that five minutes to sit in front of the word processor and write, Dear Congressman, I want you to vote for this bill.
[16:46.070 --> 16:48.590]  Or, Dear Congressman, I want you to vote against this bill.
[16:48.830 --> 16:50.370]  Yours truly, your constituent.
[16:51.010 --> 16:53.690]  Then, whatever happens is on your head.
[16:54.710 --> 16:58.690]  Now, the only reason the CDA was defeated was that we got together.
[16:59.150 --> 17:00.450]  We saw this as a threat.
[17:00.550 --> 17:01.590]  We recognized it as a threat.
[17:01.630 --> 17:03.110]  And we got together and did something.
[17:04.050 --> 17:10.110]  And now they are trying to slip things in under the radar with these silly little amendments.
[17:10.130 --> 17:11.610]  And we can do something about it.
[17:11.790 --> 17:14.830]  And all it takes is a stamp, a sheet of paper, and an envelope.
[17:15.290 --> 17:19.450]  And in some cases, some of these guys even got email and they know how to use it.
[17:19.890 --> 17:28.930]  You know, they don't need the legislative assistant with the multicolored hair and the multiple piercings to break up the man's email for it.
[17:30.370 --> 17:31.670]  So it is our duty.
[17:31.790 --> 17:31.910]  Probably not.
[17:32.050 --> 17:35.530]  And the thing is, you know, here at HOPE, we're here to learn.
[17:35.670 --> 17:36.290]  We're here to educate.
[17:37.050 --> 17:40.250]  And yeah, fine, we're educating each other, which is a good thing.
[17:40.330 --> 17:43.130]  But we need to educate the outside world at large.
[17:43.850 --> 17:46.690]  Particularly the people that have our lives in their hands.
[17:46.810 --> 17:48.670]  And these are our legislatures.
[17:49.950 --> 17:51.450]  And I've been involved with this now.
[17:51.550 --> 17:52.510]  I'm a child of the 60's.
[17:52.590 --> 17:54.410]  I was active back then.
[17:55.950 --> 17:57.950]  I have no idea what my FBI file looks like.
[17:58.030 --> 17:59.670]  But I think I'd get a hurry of trying to pick it up.
[18:01.510 --> 18:02.790]  And it's amazing, yes.
[18:02.850 --> 18:03.370]  One letter.
[18:03.490 --> 18:05.170]  You know, I've written my congressman all through the years.
[18:05.410 --> 18:07.270]  And the response has been very gratifying.
[18:07.470 --> 18:13.370]  I have been contacted once or twice by the office to offer my opinion.
[18:13.390 --> 18:16.230]  Okay, you know, the congressman knows you're a hacker.
[18:16.430 --> 18:17.350]  You know about this stuff.
[18:18.170 --> 18:19.290]  What's the real story here?
[18:20.510 --> 18:24.230]  And you don't need to send 100 megabytes of text a little bit.
[18:24.230 --> 18:25.530]  Remember, he's a congressman.
[18:27.570 --> 18:29.010]  The money grip box to work.
[18:29.070 --> 18:29.790]  The money grip box?
[18:30.030 --> 18:33.390]  I thought you were working on the German version, dare money grip box.
[18:33.590 --> 18:35.370]  And then the French deliver money grip box.
[18:37.270 --> 18:39.570]  The super secret Spanish ale money grip box.
[18:40.950 --> 18:42.010]  Check out CDC too.
[18:42.130 --> 18:42.730]  Oh, sorry.
[18:43.470 --> 18:43.610]  Damn.
[18:45.450 --> 18:45.890]  Okay.
[18:46.170 --> 18:47.430]  We want to take some questions.
[18:47.570 --> 18:54.410]  Be it whether you want to know about the CDC or if you want to talk more importantly, literally, about the Hong Kong Blondes.
[18:54.810 --> 18:56.010]  Does anybody have any questions?
[18:58.810 --> 18:59.250]  There.
[19:00.570 --> 19:03.430]  If anyone has any questions, get in line.
[19:03.830 --> 19:04.450]  Come on.
[19:05.010 --> 19:05.450]  Anyone?
[19:05.670 --> 19:06.290]  There's a microphone.
[19:06.290 --> 19:06.710]  Don't use it.
[19:06.710 --> 19:07.910]  The microphone is up there.
[19:08.670 --> 19:08.790]  Go.
[19:09.090 --> 19:09.430]  Go.
[19:09.690 --> 19:10.530]  Ask them questions.
[19:10.890 --> 19:11.770]  You are commanded.
[19:11.950 --> 19:12.750]  Don't you have any minds?
[19:13.030 --> 19:13.650]  This is important.
[19:15.970 --> 19:16.090]  Okay.
[19:16.650 --> 19:17.550]  And think for yourselves.
[19:17.910 --> 19:17.930]  Some kind of microphone.
[19:18.690 --> 19:19.270]  Here we go.
[19:19.370 --> 19:19.830]  You have a question.
[19:20.130 --> 19:21.330]  I don't really have a question.
[19:21.490 --> 19:25.630]  It's kind of just a comment to the man on, I guess, stage left.
[19:25.630 --> 19:27.010]  You were talking about...
[19:27.010 --> 19:27.170]  Yes.
[19:27.550 --> 19:28.830]  Grand high seafood figurehead?
[19:28.990 --> 19:30.930]  Or the night stalker?
[19:31.090 --> 19:32.010]  The grumpy old man.
[19:32.370 --> 19:33.670]  The man on the far left.
[19:33.970 --> 19:34.370]  Or the far right.
[19:34.370 --> 19:34.850]  Grumpy old man.
[19:35.530 --> 19:38.850]  You were talking about getting out of jury duty.
[19:39.030 --> 19:40.790]  That may not be such a good idea.
[19:41.750 --> 19:43.610]  I actually try to...
[19:43.610 --> 19:57.830]  I like getting on jury duty because maybe somebody that is in our community should be on a jury when somebody is being unjustly accused like I saw on one of the previous panels.
[19:58.090 --> 19:59.290]  Oh, I agree fully.
[19:59.470 --> 19:59.530]  Yes.
[19:59.670 --> 20:02.210]  I was just being, you know, CDC wise ass.
[20:02.850 --> 20:03.570]  Okay, but...
[20:03.570 --> 20:03.590]  Come on.
[20:03.770 --> 20:04.730]  We're CDC, okay?
[20:05.390 --> 20:06.290]  No, I agree.
[20:07.370 --> 20:09.150]  But maybe, I mean, it is...
[20:09.150 --> 20:09.870]  I think it's a good idea.
[20:10.550 --> 20:15.290]  Activism in a lot of different ways, including participating on a jury because you never know.
[20:15.630 --> 20:15.690]  All right.
[20:15.690 --> 20:21.310]  Now, what I meant, what I said was that, you know, the worst thing that will happen if a registered to vote is that, yeah, you make a call for jury duty.
[20:22.170 --> 20:24.110]  It's not really that bad, guys.
[20:24.810 --> 20:24.890]  You know.
[20:25.050 --> 20:25.890]  You'll get over it.
[20:26.110 --> 20:26.750]  Yeah, yeah.
[20:26.750 --> 20:28.010]  I mean, basically, you know...
[20:28.010 --> 20:28.870]  They feed you, too.
[20:29.050 --> 20:29.490]  They feed you.
[20:29.490 --> 20:30.430]  Yeah, you sit around for a couple of hours.
[20:30.570 --> 20:31.450]  Ten dollars a day.
[20:31.850 --> 20:32.170]  Yeah, yeah.
[20:32.890 --> 20:33.630]  Cash, money.
[20:33.950 --> 20:34.170]  Yeah.
[20:35.370 --> 20:37.630]  With luck, it's a big trial and you get a quickie book out of it.
[20:38.030 --> 20:45.170]  You get a couple of bucks, you get a box lunch, you know, you've done your civic duty and who knows, you might be able to set someone free.
[20:46.790 --> 20:47.750]  Or fry them.
[20:48.350 --> 20:49.690]  Or that too, or that too.
[20:49.850 --> 20:50.670]  Yeah, yeah, that too.
[20:50.670 --> 20:51.850]  And ten dollars a day.
[20:51.850 --> 20:52.750]  You have the power.
[20:53.470 --> 20:55.230]  The power of Grayskull.
[20:55.510 --> 20:55.710]  All right.
[20:56.010 --> 20:56.970]  The man in the tick shirt?
[20:57.310 --> 20:57.390]  Yeah.
[20:58.370 --> 21:04.850]  Long, long ago in CDC 200, y'all had to apologize for using Cow Beat.
[21:05.690 --> 21:07.930]  Did y'all actually get in trouble for that?
[21:08.130 --> 21:09.430]  Or is that just a joke?
[21:09.990 --> 21:10.090]  What?
[21:10.570 --> 21:11.230]  Apologizing for it?
[21:11.630 --> 21:12.070]  No.
[21:12.350 --> 21:17.550]  Actually, Tiger Beat sent us a letter apologizing and begging forgiveness for using our title in advance.
[21:17.550 --> 21:18.550]  Oh, okay.
[21:19.690 --> 21:20.450]  They ripped us off the cow.
[21:20.450 --> 21:21.270]  We don't make any apologies.
[21:22.410 --> 21:23.370]  Everyone rips us off.
[21:23.390 --> 21:26.230]  I can't believe no one has any questions about the Hong Kong Blondes.
[21:27.030 --> 21:27.670]  Any next?
[21:27.890 --> 21:28.150]  I do.
[21:28.490 --> 21:28.970]  Oh, okay.
[21:29.130 --> 21:29.530]  All right.
[21:30.290 --> 21:34.990]  Before I ask a question, I think that we owe you a big fucking thank you.
[21:35.550 --> 21:38.470]  Mostly because I've been reading your shit since I was like this tall.
[21:39.190 --> 21:39.550]  Yay!
[21:39.710 --> 21:40.130]  No, no, no.
[21:40.190 --> 21:51.370]  The great thing about it is that it's this good place where you can get away from the ignorant attitudes that you get with a lot of wannabe fuckers.
[21:51.650 --> 21:53.490]  And you get a lot of fucking humor out of it.
[21:53.570 --> 21:56.130]  You know, you can get good hacking shit and then you get humor.
[21:56.570 --> 21:57.230]  Which is a nice...
[21:57.230 --> 21:58.050]  Are you laughing at us?
[21:58.210 --> 21:58.910]  Is that what's happening?
[21:59.210 --> 22:00.190]  Are we trying to be funny?
[22:00.190 --> 22:01.310]  Are we clowns to you?
[22:01.510 --> 22:02.070]  This isn't funny.
[22:02.070 --> 22:02.350]  Get him!
[22:02.570 --> 22:03.790]  I wasn't trying to be funny.
[22:03.790 --> 22:04.070]  What?
[22:04.270 --> 22:04.630]  No.
[22:05.030 --> 22:09.510]  Actually, I think the question that a lot of us will be asking is what can we do to help this?
[22:10.670 --> 22:14.310]  What steps can we take to help donate to that project?
[22:14.630 --> 22:15.870]  Well, one thing is...
[22:16.710 --> 22:17.670]  Yeah, that's one thing.
[22:17.850 --> 22:18.910]  Is T-files.
[22:19.070 --> 22:19.290]  CDC.
[22:19.850 --> 22:21.030]  The CDC text files.
[22:21.230 --> 22:21.830]  The e-zine.
[22:21.890 --> 22:25.370]  I also wanted to note that CDC is actually the inventor of the e-zine.
[22:25.510 --> 22:27.090]  The very first e-zine, 1984.
[22:27.530 --> 22:29.550]  If you've been able to find an early one, let us know.
[22:29.710 --> 22:32.550]  But as far as we know, we are the inventor of the e-zine.
[22:33.350 --> 22:33.790]  Anyway...
[22:33.790 --> 22:35.490]  Which means Slate owes us a lot of money.
[22:35.930 --> 22:36.370]  What?
[22:37.210 --> 22:38.870]  Slate owes us a lot of money.
[22:39.150 --> 22:39.650]  Damn straight.
[22:39.890 --> 22:40.010]  Yeah.
[22:42.070 --> 22:43.570]  I totally lost my train of thought.
[22:43.730 --> 22:46.830]  Anyway, anyone can submit a file for publishing to CDC.
[22:47.290 --> 22:49.170]  What's Swamp Rat's e-mail address right now?
[22:49.170 --> 22:49.890]  Actually, no.
[22:50.030 --> 22:55.610]  You should send it to omega, O-M-E-G-A, at cultdeadcow.com.
[22:55.830 --> 22:56.870]  If you want to submit files.
[22:57.030 --> 22:58.970]  I'm not saying it's necessarily going to be published.
[22:59.090 --> 23:01.750]  But anybody has the opportunity to publish a file under CDC.
[23:02.070 --> 23:04.250]  And I think that's something very special about the internet.
[23:04.490 --> 23:05.490]  That for the first time...
[23:05.490 --> 23:06.370]  Well, computers in general.
[23:06.610 --> 23:07.630]  Anyone can be a publisher.
[23:07.770 --> 23:08.290]  You don't need to...
[23:08.290 --> 23:10.130]  You don't even need to have a hand press in your basement.
[23:10.310 --> 23:13.130]  You can write shit, and people all over the world are going to be reading it.
[23:13.130 --> 23:19.330]  And that's what makes CDC special is that, like, when Swamp Rat started it, all his friends were making little paper zines.
[23:19.490 --> 23:20.170]  Where are those now?
[23:20.690 --> 23:23.350]  Maybe there's a few copies in shoe boxes under somebody's bed.
[23:23.930 --> 23:33.510]  And if you read stuff that, you know, makes you laugh and makes you have fun, then, you know, think about writing something yourself and sort of give something back to the whole scene.
[23:33.570 --> 23:34.510]  I mean, because that's what it's all about.
[23:34.650 --> 23:38.110]  Anybody, you know, expressing themselves any way they want.
[23:38.430 --> 23:38.710]  So...
[23:39.810 --> 23:41.110]  I'm getting all gushy here.
[23:41.210 --> 23:41.590]  I'm sorry.
[23:41.590 --> 23:41.610]  I'm sorry.
[23:42.390 --> 23:43.590]  Remember, fuck Shockwave.
[23:43.690 --> 23:46.310]  We've been doing ASCII art since 1984, you know.
[23:46.750 --> 23:48.170]  It's a whole content.
[23:48.470 --> 23:49.210]  But, by the...
[23:49.210 --> 23:49.850]  Hang on a second.
[23:50.090 --> 23:56.950]  The man who asked what he could do to help the Hong Kong Blondes, the contact point is our foreign minister, Oxblood Ruffin.
[23:57.170 --> 24:01.410]  And you can send a mail at oxblood at cultdeadcow.com.
[24:01.550 --> 24:02.030]  Is that correct?
[24:02.990 --> 24:03.370]  Oxblood.
[24:03.890 --> 24:06.350]  You know, though, I want to add to this question.
[24:07.090 --> 24:08.310]  We're helping them right now.
[24:08.450 --> 24:10.010]  I mean, we're getting the word out.
[24:10.010 --> 24:11.150]  You can get the word out.
[24:11.610 --> 24:12.310]  We have...
[24:12.930 --> 24:17.050]  Like Veggie was talking about, we have greater power than anyone else.
[24:17.250 --> 24:20.290]  Those of us who understand this technology to disseminate information.
[24:20.770 --> 24:23.190]  And when the information is out there, it helps.
[24:23.190 --> 24:25.930]  It helps the struggle if people know about it.
[24:26.390 --> 24:28.050]  So that's, you know, that's what we're going to do.
[24:28.130 --> 24:29.090]  That's what we're going to keep doing.
[24:29.210 --> 24:30.090]  That's where you can help.
[24:30.410 --> 24:31.430]  That's where you should help.
[24:33.170 --> 24:44.070]  I mean, what we're doing in terms of, like, physically helping them, we're doing things, providing them with encryption, things like that, so that their intergroup communications cannot be monitored.
[24:44.070 --> 24:49.450]  I'm not going to get into it, because like I said, this is something where literally lives are at stake.
[24:50.110 --> 24:52.890]  But, I mean, this is important stuff.
[24:53.830 --> 24:54.390]  Whatever.
[24:54.870 --> 24:56.030]  Anyway, next question.
[24:56.910 --> 25:00.350]  What is the airspeed of a fully laden swallow?
[25:00.570 --> 25:01.030]  17.
[25:01.450 --> 25:01.710]  Next.
[25:01.710 --> 25:03.450]  African or European.
[25:09.820 --> 25:15.420]  Does security ever conflict with other goals in operating system design that you consider important?
[25:18.450 --> 25:21.370]  Does security interfere with operating system design?
[25:21.630 --> 25:22.450]  Other goals.
[25:22.650 --> 25:23.590]  Conflict with goals.
[25:24.610 --> 25:24.750]  I'm sorry.
[25:24.890 --> 25:25.930]  I couldn't hear the second part.
[25:26.330 --> 25:26.630]  One more time.
[25:27.670 --> 25:32.890]  Does security conflict with any goals in operating system design that you consider important?
[25:34.830 --> 25:35.750]  Does it conflict?
[25:35.970 --> 25:36.950]  No, I think it helps.
[25:37.750 --> 25:41.270]  There's one thing that you really want in an operating system is you want it to work.
[25:42.030 --> 25:44.490]  Anything you're doing, you have a goal with it.
[25:44.670 --> 25:47.970]  The goal shouldn't necessarily be security from the ground up.
[25:48.050 --> 25:52.350]  It shouldn't be unusable in order to be secure.
[25:52.650 --> 25:56.070]  But security has to be thought of from the ground up.
[25:56.070 --> 26:07.610]  It can't be something that comes in after the fact and gets thrown on as duct tape and bubble gum trying to hold this damn piece of whatever together after it's been sent out in the public.
[26:07.930 --> 26:10.830]  So, the security get in the way, can it make things difficult?
[26:11.130 --> 26:13.470]  Yes, if it's put on after the fact.
[26:13.750 --> 26:20.810]  If it starts from the beginning and you have it in the back of your mind and you're thinking about it when you're doing it, it does not hurt at all.
[26:20.810 --> 26:23.530]  And it makes such a better end result.
[26:27.550 --> 26:30.230]  Are there any people working for major operating system vendors?
[26:30.370 --> 26:30.990]  Did you get that?
[26:32.150 --> 26:33.290]  Security, good.
[26:34.770 --> 26:36.650]  Does anyone else have any questions?
[26:36.910 --> 26:38.070]  Come on, come on, more questions.
[26:38.530 --> 26:39.630]  Feed us, feed us.
[26:41.090 --> 26:42.170]  Oh, somebody's coming to the microphone.
[26:42.450 --> 26:42.730]  All right.
[26:44.850 --> 26:52.430]  Can you discuss a little bit about the organizational structure of hackers working on OpenBSD?
[26:52.430 --> 27:00.410]  I don't know if Theo's around or there's been some discussion of the chaotic nature of the Linux development project.
[27:00.990 --> 27:10.310]  And I know that OpenBSD has kind of a rep as being you have to be pretty elite to take part in the project.
[27:10.970 --> 27:12.990]  You mentioned that hackers are developing and stuff.
[27:13.790 --> 27:16.330]  Can you talk a little bit more about the organizational structure?
[27:16.690 --> 27:18.270]  Beijing, Mr. Theo de Raadt.
[27:18.550 --> 27:20.570]  Mr. Theo de Raadt, please come to the front.
[27:21.690 --> 27:22.550]  There's already a phone.
[27:22.870 --> 27:22.970]  Theo.
[27:23.730 --> 27:24.590]  Run, run.
[27:24.830 --> 27:25.090]  Hey.
[27:25.450 --> 27:26.430]  Run, Forrest, run.
[27:26.810 --> 27:28.650]  Ladies and gentlemen, Mr. Theo de Raadt.
[27:28.970 --> 27:30.230]  And while we're waiting for...
[27:30.230 --> 27:30.390]  Yay!
[27:31.490 --> 27:32.830]  There we go, there we go.
[27:33.770 --> 27:36.270]  Theo, you must bow thrice to the god of the cow.
[27:37.530 --> 27:37.690]  Yes.
[27:37.890 --> 27:38.230]  Moo.
[27:39.370 --> 27:39.850]  Moo.
[27:40.750 --> 27:41.090]  Moo.
[27:41.430 --> 27:41.450]  Moo.
[27:41.450 --> 27:44.990]  Mr. Theo de Raadt, trained ninja, rock star and pimp.
[27:45.970 --> 27:47.270]  Do you want to answer that question?
[27:47.550 --> 27:51.990]  The orchestration, the structure and hacker and how...
[27:53.510 --> 27:54.190]  Let's see.
[27:56.250 --> 27:58.290]  Do you have to be elite to work on this stuff?
[27:58.470 --> 27:58.530]  Okay.
[27:58.750 --> 28:02.050]  Well, there's people who work on all sorts of different parts of the operating system.
[28:02.450 --> 28:03.570]  You have to be a coder.
[28:04.690 --> 28:07.210]  If you can't write good code, then a problem is going to develop.
[28:07.550 --> 28:08.150]  There's parts...
[28:08.150 --> 28:09.850]  Basically, security is everywhere.
[28:11.270 --> 28:11.670]  Um...
[28:11.670 --> 28:11.830]  Okay.
[28:12.130 --> 28:13.870]  Think of a buffer overflow in SH.
[28:15.070 --> 28:16.190]  Like, even SH.
[28:16.750 --> 28:20.090]  If you had a buffer overflow in SH, there goes your CGI scripts.
[28:20.410 --> 28:21.870]  There goes your HTTP daemon.
[28:22.430 --> 28:23.230]  Everything collapses.
[28:25.730 --> 28:26.130]  Um...
[28:26.750 --> 28:27.550]  Another example.
[28:27.650 --> 28:30.830]  How about a comparison to the chaotic nature of the way...
[28:30.830 --> 28:31.870]  Well, it's not chaotic.
[28:32.130 --> 28:32.730]  Well, it's chaotic.
[28:32.910 --> 28:36.110]  You see, everybody who's working on the project is working on what they want to work on.
[28:36.330 --> 28:39.830]  If someone isn't interested in what they're working on, they're not going to do a good job.
[28:39.830 --> 28:42.650]  When you don't like your job, do you do a good job?
[28:44.110 --> 28:45.390]  No, it sucks, right?
[28:45.950 --> 28:46.710]  It's garbage.
[28:47.050 --> 28:48.470]  And that's what happens.
[28:48.710 --> 28:53.750]  So, everything that we're working on, trying to improve, it's stuff that we want to really fix and make better.
[28:54.410 --> 28:59.690]  And if we don't make something better, then it's just a side product of that.
[29:00.630 --> 29:02.510]  It's all just a best effort, right?
[29:02.730 --> 29:03.470]  That's what we're doing.
[29:03.650 --> 29:04.890]  And that's what the vendors aren't doing.
[29:04.890 --> 29:09.950]  The vendors who are selling all the standard operating systems you put on machines, they're not even putting any effort into.
[29:10.130 --> 29:13.190]  They're going and saying, we're a multi-million dollar company.
[29:13.350 --> 29:16.070]  Why would we care about your security?
[29:16.870 --> 29:17.290]  Okay?
[29:18.130 --> 29:20.190]  And that's just what we're spending effort on.
[29:20.390 --> 29:21.310]  Can we fix the mail?
[29:22.970 --> 29:25.470]  Yeah, we always have the latest Sendmail, plus we have fixes.
[29:27.690 --> 29:28.010]  Yeah.
[29:29.110 --> 29:33.450]  Yeah, we fix things and we send fixes to Allman, and then they come out in the next release.
[29:34.870 --> 29:37.290]  And with DNS, and then they don't come out in the next release.
[29:38.130 --> 29:44.510]  We can take one more question, and if there's more than one person, you have to have a ninja battle to decide who will actually take the question.
[29:44.510 --> 29:46.610]  And then, Luke, then we pelt them with Octopie, right?
[29:48.630 --> 29:51.330]  I don't really have a question, it's more of like a comment.
[29:51.590 --> 29:56.970]  Um, I've been messing around with my Linux, like, kernel stuff for like months, basically.
[29:57.490 --> 30:05.390]  I brought home the OpenBSD last night, dropped it in, booted from the CD-ROM, it worked fine right from the beginning, did a complete install, everything works great.
[30:05.610 --> 30:18.470]  So just like advantages over that from latest Linux kernel source and having to fuck with it yourself and taking things out of pci.c and fucking with all that shit, even to get it barely working.
[30:19.070 --> 30:22.230]  And you take OpenBSD, drop it on, it's fine right from the start.
[30:24.270 --> 30:26.150]  You can thank CDC for that.
[30:26.390 --> 30:26.730]  Yay!
[30:28.070 --> 30:31.170]  And ladies and gentlemen, this man, did you hear that?
[30:31.490 --> 30:32.090]  He's a ninja.
[30:34.650 --> 30:36.090]  So, you have a question?
[30:36.430 --> 30:36.770]  Yes.
[30:36.950 --> 30:37.230]  A question.
[30:37.450 --> 30:37.570]  Okay.
[30:38.010 --> 30:38.730]  Last question.
[30:38.890 --> 30:39.230]  Promise.
[30:39.550 --> 30:40.070]  Okay, go ahead.
[30:40.770 --> 30:42.210]  I stepped in late.
[30:42.590 --> 30:45.790]  What, or who are the Hong Kong dolls?
[30:46.910 --> 30:50.090]  The Hong Kong... New York dolls?
[30:50.370 --> 30:50.590]  What?
[30:50.690 --> 30:53.270]  Or the Hong Kong Blondes, or whatever you call them.
[30:53.450 --> 31:01.090]  The Hong Kong Blondes are a group of Chinese dissidents living inside and outside of the People's Republic of China that we formed a strategic alliance with.
[31:01.270 --> 31:05.290]  We've been working with them for several months, helping them out.
[31:06.130 --> 31:13.330]  Like I said earlier, I really can't go into too many details because for once, I mean, this is something where literally lives are at stake.
[31:15.530 --> 31:15.990]  Okay.
[31:17.090 --> 31:17.750]  Oh, yes.
[31:18.490 --> 31:20.570]  Lastly, global domination through media saturation.
[31:20.810 --> 31:20.910]  What?
[31:21.050 --> 31:22.670]  Can we give these annoying fans some octopus?
[31:23.210 --> 31:23.670]  Okay.
[31:24.190 --> 31:27.910]  And before we leave you, we have one thing to add.
[31:29.050 --> 31:29.250]  Thanks.
[31:29.510 --> 31:39.070]  In cooperation with the Durex Blender, Durex Blender Corporation, who most of you probably have never heard of, but that's because you're not cool enough.
[31:41.990 --> 31:44.910]  CDC is giving you octopuses.
[31:46.270 --> 31:46.870]  Octopi.
[31:47.550 --> 31:48.150]  Octopi.
[31:49.170 --> 31:50.350]  Thank you very much.
[31:50.610 --> 31:51.190]  Bye.