[01:37.310 --> 01:38.970]  Okay, everybody here?
[01:39.910 --> 01:40.430]  Great.
[01:43.830 --> 01:45.850]  Welcome to Beyond HOPE After Dark.
[01:47.310 --> 01:48.650]  We're in the New York Times.
[01:52.210 --> 02:00.750]  This happened last time too, except this time we're in the magazine section, which means they actually wrote this article like several weeks ago for it to get into the color section.
[02:00.970 --> 02:13.330]  And what they say about us, hackers for hire, I don't know where they got that from, this weekend thousands of computer hackers are gathered in the Puck Building in Manhattan for Beyond HOPE, billed as the largest hacker convention ever.
[02:13.610 --> 02:14.910]  Well, we didn't bill it that way.
[02:14.970 --> 02:15.290]  They did.
[02:15.490 --> 02:16.790]  But it probably is.
[02:17.030 --> 02:17.790]  I don't know.
[02:19.310 --> 02:21.670]  There's all kinds of weird goings on here.
[02:21.930 --> 02:28.730]  Panels and everything from credit card security, which I don't think we've talked about, to hacking New York's MetroCard, which will be happening tomorrow afternoon.
[02:29.850 --> 02:38.430]  The event is also drawing corporate reps and various government outfits like DARPA, who are on hand not to arrest but to hire.
[02:39.270 --> 02:41.810]  So go out there and get hired, I guess.
[02:43.750 --> 02:44.190]  All right.
[02:44.250 --> 02:46.230]  We all know about the cyber cafe being hacked.
[02:47.710 --> 02:49.070]  It's kind of funny, isn't it?
[02:49.430 --> 02:57.530]  But if you do hack something, be nice about it and leave plenty of backup so that people can put it back to the way it was.
[02:58.690 --> 03:00.470]  We don't condone that kind of thing, by the way.
[03:01.370 --> 03:01.850]  All right.
[03:01.910 --> 03:05.710]  Our next panelist, Ira Winkler, will be speaking about hackers and criminals.
[03:06.430 --> 03:07.450]  Should be quite a interesting.
[03:07.650 --> 03:08.730]  And don't go anywhere after this.
[03:08.870 --> 03:10.550]  We have our GSM panel going on.
[03:10.970 --> 03:12.110]  Don't worry about the rave.
[03:12.250 --> 03:13.490]  It's going to be happening all night long.
[03:13.670 --> 03:16.370]  So if you want to go there, too, plenty of time to get there, as well.
[03:16.810 --> 03:17.210]  Here's Ira.
[03:24.040 --> 03:24.560]  Hi, there.
[03:25.020 --> 03:25.880]  Oh, it's working.
[03:26.060 --> 03:26.380]  Cool.
[03:27.040 --> 03:27.300]  Okay.
[03:27.960 --> 03:29.740]  Basically, I came up with a title.
[03:29.940 --> 03:33.880]  It's originally... I originally gave this presentation at DEFCON.
[03:34.220 --> 03:36.920]  And at DEFCON, they were trying to figure out a good title for it.
[03:37.020 --> 03:39.180]  And the name changed about three or four times.
[03:39.400 --> 03:42.200]  And what happened was Jeff Moss thought... well, DT said...
[03:42.200 --> 03:42.400]  DT, sorry.
[03:43.220 --> 03:44.360]  DT thought it would be a good thing.
[03:44.440 --> 03:46.100]  Name it after my book, Corporate Espionage.
[03:46.320 --> 03:46.820]  Oh, hold on.
[03:47.720 --> 03:48.320]  Cheap plug.
[03:48.540 --> 03:49.060]  Buy the book.
[03:49.160 --> 03:50.060]  Everybody says it's great.
[03:50.200 --> 03:50.780]  Not just me.
[03:50.980 --> 03:51.980]  But I'm biased.
[03:52.200 --> 03:52.780]  They aren't.
[03:52.960 --> 03:53.360]  Anyway.
[03:53.800 --> 03:55.240]  So it was corporate espionage.
[03:55.380 --> 04:05.340]  Then it turned out where hackers and criminals collide, because I kind of don't want to teach people how to go out and commit espionage, especially in a setting like this, where people are likely to use it.
[04:06.000 --> 04:06.400]  So...
[04:07.560 --> 04:18.240]  It's kind of like a little, you know, eye-opening thing for my opinion, because again, like one of the panelists, I believe Lewis Koch said, I'm happy to be here because it's among the best and the brightest.
[04:18.560 --> 04:23.820]  Well, I personally don't believe that being pierced and wearing a black t-shirt makes you the best or the brightest.
[04:24.180 --> 04:28.760]  So I'm here to see, you know, again, I'm here to try to like open your eyes.
[04:28.760 --> 04:42.160]  And just to give you an idea on what I'm seeing around here, I'm seeing some people like learn some really elite things, like PS, PS dash AUX, then followed by kill minus nine number.
[04:42.680 --> 04:48.420]  You know, if that's the type of stuff you think is elite and all that makes you leading edge, you know, you need help.
[04:49.460 --> 04:59.900]  And then a lot of people also, when I was up there during the Tiger Team testing, came over to me and said, hey, you know, now that password sniffing stuff, how does that work?
[04:59.900 --> 05:00.840]  I can't see that.
[05:01.100 --> 05:03.720]  You know, and they don't know how password sniffing is done.
[05:03.880 --> 05:06.000]  How many people know how password sniffing is done?
[05:07.220 --> 05:09.500]  Now, this is scary, because half of you don't.
[05:10.080 --> 05:12.000]  And this is a major problem.
[05:12.380 --> 05:16.660]  You know, again, password sniffing is a basic concept in any sort of hacking.
[05:16.660 --> 05:22.560]  But the thing is, I get worried here when I hear people say, oh, be a hacker, then you'll get a high paying job.
[05:22.960 --> 05:24.540]  And that's not going to happen.
[05:25.300 --> 05:28.840]  You know, again, just because you're a hacker, it doesn't mean you know what you're doing.
[05:29.080 --> 05:30.780]  It means you call yourself a hacker.
[05:31.460 --> 05:36.840]  And additionally, the problem is the people who are least technically skilled present the biggest problems.
[05:37.420 --> 05:41.600]  Because it's these people, because I don't, well, let me start going to the next slide, sorry.
[05:43.480 --> 05:43.920]  Okay.
[05:44.600 --> 05:45.040]  What?
[05:46.300 --> 05:48.240]  Okay, anyway, this is what I do.
[05:48.500 --> 05:50.640]  Formerly, I was with a national security agency.
[05:50.880 --> 05:55.620]  I performed work for other intelligence agencies after I got out of there and while I was in there.
[05:55.940 --> 05:57.040]  And again, did a bunch of stuff.
[05:57.360 --> 05:59.480]  Right now, I'm performing penetration testing.
[06:00.500 --> 06:03.000]  Some people call me the best social engineer in the world.
[06:03.160 --> 06:07.280]  And again, if you read my book or read my articles, which are out there on the internet, you'll see why.
[06:08.160 --> 06:13.160]  And also, you know, a bunch of newspapers call me the modern-day James Bond and all that sort of garbage.
[06:13.160 --> 06:14.840]  I'll talk about this in a second.
[06:15.240 --> 06:17.500]  And again, I've taken over banks using only telephones.
[06:17.620 --> 06:18.900]  I've stolen billions in a day.
[06:18.900 --> 06:20.020]  I've given it back.
[06:20.200 --> 06:22.120]  But again, that's, I did this all legally.
[06:22.560 --> 06:24.100]  And again, let's see.
[06:24.240 --> 06:26.500]  I also investigate computer-related crimes.
[06:26.700 --> 06:33.640]  So not only, I guess, you know, I learn a few tricks investigating the crimes, but more often than not, they become big problems.
[06:34.740 --> 06:38.800]  Because I don't learn anything new with all you people breaking into systems.
[06:39.160 --> 06:41.540]  You're not on the leading edge for the most part.
[06:41.920 --> 06:45.000]  You know, like, what, the guy who Brock Meeks or something like that?
[06:45.160 --> 06:48.360]  He was out there saying there aren't very many good hacks going on.
[06:48.460 --> 06:49.280]  And that's true.
[06:49.560 --> 06:50.380]  Next slide, please.
[06:52.880 --> 06:55.560]  No, even when I am catching them, they're not good.
[06:57.320 --> 07:08.300]  Okay, first of all, my attitude on this, unfortunately, again, you know, being called the modern-day James Bond, when you read it and when I write about it, you're gonna see, I don't really think what I do is unique.
[07:08.360 --> 07:13.320]  I lie to people, I hack into computers, and to me, that's not special.
[07:13.520 --> 07:17.360]  And I've been quoted as saying, I could train a monkey to hack a computer within two hours.
[07:17.700 --> 07:18.740]  And that's true.
[07:18.940 --> 07:26.540]  I could teach any one of you little tools kitties out there or software puppies to go ahead and hack a computer with the best within two hours.
[07:26.720 --> 07:28.700]  All you need to know is the right information.
[07:29.040 --> 07:32.260]  Again, breaking into a computer system is pretty mindless these days.
[07:32.260 --> 07:36.440]  And again, most of all it takes is nerve and the willingness to commit criminal actions.
[07:36.780 --> 07:39.060]  That's all it really takes to be a hacker these days.
[07:39.240 --> 07:42.120]  Again, people call... let me say people calling themselves a hacker.
[07:42.380 --> 07:46.280]  Because I think there are a lot of people calling themselves a hacker who really aren't hackers.
[07:46.320 --> 07:47.980]  And I think the better ones know what I mean.
[07:48.460 --> 07:58.540]  And again, you know, as far as people getting jobs, it's much easier for me to train an honest person to act like a criminal than it is for me to train a hacker and make them act like an honest person.
[07:58.880 --> 08:08.740]  Because again, the people I look for to do penetration tests with me are primarily good system administrators who all I have to do is teach a few little skills, teach them how to do things in reverse.
[08:09.140 --> 08:09.600]  Next slide.
[08:10.940 --> 08:15.060]  Okay, and as far as this presentation goes, I'm not here to teach you criminal methods.
[08:15.200 --> 08:16.660]  I think too many people are going to use them.
[08:16.660 --> 08:20.800]  But again, you know, I guess maybe I'm some sort of prostitute or something.
[08:21.020 --> 08:23.400]  If you want to learn how, you can buy my book or go on the internet.
[08:23.520 --> 08:25.760]  It's available for free or my book is really good.
[08:25.940 --> 08:26.860]  You can all take your pick.
[08:27.180 --> 08:27.580]  Next.
[08:29.780 --> 08:32.060]  Okay, let's talk about... oh, criminals and the hackers.
[08:32.320 --> 08:34.940]  Let's talk about how hackers and criminals collide.
[08:35.060 --> 08:37.820]  Then we'll go into some details on actual criminal hacks.
[08:38.780 --> 08:40.580]  Oh, can you cover that up please?
[08:41.840 --> 08:42.980]  Or just unplug it?
[08:58.740 --> 09:00.240]  Yeah, this is really sophisticated.
[09:00.980 --> 09:04.500]  Okay, first of all, let me talk about the inner circle.
[09:04.620 --> 09:07.160]  These circles are what I consider to be the hacker community.
[09:07.440 --> 09:08.900]  And I'll go into a little bit on...
[09:08.900 --> 09:13.680]  Well, first let me, before I go into this, how I perceive people growing into the hackers.
[09:14.520 --> 09:21.540]  What I see is, I mean, in my opinion, even though I don't think a lot of many hackers, I think they do go into hacking for well-meaning purposes.
[09:21.940 --> 09:25.300]  For the most part, I've seen what elementary schools teach students.
[09:25.800 --> 09:29.180]  In other words, they teach students a little bit about computers.
[09:29.180 --> 09:32.980]  They teach them how to boot them up and go through read a rabbit for six years.
[09:33.860 --> 09:37.200]  And then after you go through read a rabbit, you kind of get interested a little bit in computers.
[09:37.360 --> 09:38.380]  And you want to learn more.
[09:38.640 --> 09:40.940]  And then you have to go to your teacher and say, I want to learn more.
[09:41.000 --> 09:44.460]  And they're like, sorry, go ask your mother to get you a tutor.
[09:44.460 --> 09:46.340]  And the odds of that are almost nil.
[09:46.600 --> 09:47.600]  So what happens?
[09:47.760 --> 09:51.180]  You get out there on the internet, and you run into people on the internet.
[09:51.320 --> 09:52.200]  You run into things.
[09:52.360 --> 09:54.500]  You run into wanting to do fun things.
[09:54.800 --> 09:55.940]  And what are fun things?
[09:56.120 --> 10:00.160]  Well, computer hacking, that's the simplest and the easiest thing that comes to mind.
[10:00.800 --> 10:05.360]  You know, again, there's people out there telling you, oh, you're a freedom fighter if you're a hacker.
[10:05.360 --> 10:08.000]  You know, you're protecting the world if you're a hacker.
[10:08.240 --> 10:09.960]  You're really elite if you're a hacker.
[10:10.100 --> 10:14.620]  The media is out there helping this with stupid movies like the movie Hackers, for example.
[10:15.260 --> 10:17.060]  And you know, it's really cool.
[10:17.520 --> 10:18.900]  You know, so what do you do?
[10:19.020 --> 10:23.620]  You go ahead and with an honest effort to learn more about computers, you get sucked in.
[10:23.740 --> 10:27.760]  But the people out there are telling you, oh, breaking into computers, that makes you elite.
[10:28.300 --> 10:30.460]  You know, breaking into computers makes you a voyeur.
[10:30.720 --> 10:32.200]  Well, I'll talk about that at the end of my briefing.
[10:32.200 --> 10:36.040]  But anyway, so that's my impression how people become hackers.
[10:36.080 --> 10:39.600]  Usually after you have to get a real job, you know, most of you outgrow this stuff.
[10:39.700 --> 10:44.380]  Because most people, again, aren't that good, aren't good enough to get jobs doing penetration testing.
[10:44.880 --> 10:45.840]  And we'll talk about that.
[10:46.060 --> 10:47.260]  Okay, now back to this thing.
[10:48.420 --> 10:50.360]  First of all, there's this inner circle here.
[10:50.540 --> 10:55.020]  These are the people that, for lack of a better term, are what I consider the true geniuses.
[10:55.220 --> 10:59.700]  You got people in here like Mudge, Hobbit, r00t, other people like this.
[10:59.700 --> 11:03.960]  And what these people do is they find problems with software programs.
[11:04.540 --> 11:05.900]  Hacking is nothing more...
[11:05.900 --> 11:13.540]  Well, exploiting a computer is nothing more than finding a problem with an operating system or some sort of computer application.
[11:13.820 --> 11:17.000]  And what happens is these people are the smart ones.
[11:17.340 --> 11:21.260]  These people are the real geniuses that the media would like to portray as the evil people.
[11:21.260 --> 11:27.440]  But these are the people that are out there just trying to learn about computers like every hacker claims they are trying to do.
[11:28.060 --> 11:30.660]  So again, you got these people finding problems with computers.
[11:31.060 --> 11:34.020]  They put out the information to anyone that wants it.
[11:34.380 --> 11:36.720]  They also put it out to the second inner circle.
[11:36.960 --> 11:41.520]  These are the people that aren't necessarily as smart as Mudge or Hobbit.
[11:41.720 --> 11:45.400]  But these are people that go out and can really use these tools very well.
[11:45.620 --> 11:49.480]  They can actually develop tools off the information developed by this inner circle.
[11:50.080 --> 11:53.080]  Then you have what I consider the rest of the hacker community.
[11:53.240 --> 12:01.800]  And by the way, you know, from what I've been able to see, there's probably about 200 people in the inner circle, maybe about 1,000 or 2,000 people on the second inner circle.
[12:01.980 --> 12:03.400]  Then you've got the outer circle.
[12:03.540 --> 12:08.160]  And these are what Hobbit and Mudge and all those other people consider to be clueless teenagers.
[12:09.100 --> 12:16.960]  And again, these are people that take the information that the geniuses do, and they go ahead and use the tools to break into computers.
[12:16.960 --> 12:20.800]  And again, basically, they're using tools to break into computers.
[12:21.040 --> 12:23.800]  They try to prove they're elite and all that sort of stuff.
[12:23.980 --> 12:28.900]  And what they end up doing is feeding information back into the other hackers.
[12:29.040 --> 12:35.800]  So, for example, when I'm investigating computer crimes, I'll see some clueless teenagers out there who break into a bank.
[12:36.320 --> 12:45.860]  You know, again, they'll do some password guessing, they'll find an account without a user ID, they'll hack Sendmail for 150 times, and they'll be able to find a user ID in a bank.
[12:45.860 --> 12:51.420]  Then the first thing they like to do is go out and prove to the world, hey guys, I'm elite, I'm not a loser.
[12:51.840 --> 12:52.940]  So what do they do?
[12:53.120 --> 12:58.200]  On bulletin boards, they go ahead and say, hey, I'm really cool, give me wares.
[12:58.720 --> 13:00.520]  How many people have ever seen that posting?
[13:02.680 --> 13:06.160]  These are the people that aren't clueless that actually read it and get a laugh out of it.
[13:06.940 --> 13:10.280]  The other clueless people say, oh, he's elite, let me give him whatever I have.
[13:10.280 --> 13:20.000]  But anyway, these people are out there, they go ahead, in order to prove that they know something, they'll say, here's the account I found, here's the credit card number I found, or whatever.
[13:21.420 --> 13:29.980]  So, hacks into computers end up getting put out on the internet or bulletin boards or wherever, but primarily the world wide web is where a lot of this information sits.
[13:30.740 --> 13:33.340]  Then, again, those are the inner circles.
[13:33.600 --> 13:36.980]  Then you've got these little things that kind of look like an airplane propeller.
[13:37.060 --> 13:39.060]  Actually, that's the way Hobbit called it.
[13:39.280 --> 13:48.280]  But anyway, what happens is, you have these ellipses out here, which I consider criminals over here to this side, and foreign intelligence agencies over here to this side.
[13:49.180 --> 13:53.020]  Now, what happens is, the foreign... well, let's talk about organized crime.
[13:53.820 --> 14:01.500]  This ellipse, I say, goes a little bit into the inner circle, because there are people in what I consider the inner circle that are working for criminal elements.
[14:01.720 --> 14:08.180]  It's incredibly profitable to work for them, and some of them have used their skills, again, primarily for criminal purposes.
[14:08.740 --> 14:14.660]  And what happens is, they go ahead, and organized crime tends to use their own people, which is this section out here.
[14:14.840 --> 14:21.480]  They use some of the clueless people, because, yeah, they're good to take a fall, let's put them out on a limb, and if anybody takes the fall, it'll be them.
[14:21.480 --> 14:23.160]  Which is most of you, I think.
[14:23.760 --> 14:26.440]  Anyway, then you've got a few people on the inner circle, and so on.
[14:26.900 --> 14:29.760]  Organized crime also has a few of their own geniuses.
[14:29.900 --> 14:31.420]  Those are those little circles here.
[14:31.720 --> 14:37.000]  And what happens is, these little geniuses are the people, for example, if you're talking about the Russian Mafia.
[14:37.060 --> 14:44.520]  The Russian Mafia is very good at recruiting former KGB-trained people, the GRU, the Russian Military Intelligence Agency.
[14:44.740 --> 14:47.880]  Their SIGINT directorate has some of the best computer hackers in the world.
[14:47.880 --> 14:55.240]  And it's much more profitable to work for organized crime, as opposed to the Russian military, who, by the way, isn't paying anybody at the moment.
[14:55.600 --> 14:59.480]  So you've got a bunch of really good people working for organized crime.
[14:59.940 --> 15:04.780]  And what they do is, primarily, they look at the information that's already out there.
[15:04.780 --> 15:11.040]  They get the tools, they get the information, like, here's an account on this bank, or here's an account in this company.
[15:11.280 --> 15:20.480]  And they go ahead and, using the information that these little clueless people provide, they end up going in there and using that information to steal money.
[15:20.620 --> 15:22.960]  Or steal information, or whatever the case is.
[15:22.960 --> 15:27.420]  Sometimes, these really smart people will end up putting out some more tools.
[15:27.420 --> 15:32.640]  Because if they develop an attack that's fairly easy to guess, but it's kind of...
[15:32.640 --> 15:43.680]  You know, if it's fairly easy to guess what's going on, but it looks very advanced and new, what they'll do is, they'll put out the tool to the internet through some, like, you know, anonymous postings and things like that.
[15:43.680 --> 15:47.500]  And then, all the wares kitties and everybody start picking up on these tools.
[15:48.020 --> 15:52.940]  And then, those wares kitties end up going out and using these tools much more than the criminals do.
[15:53.280 --> 16:06.940]  So, finally, when the criminals decide to use the tool, what's happening is, they're using this tool, which is using this attack, which is being hidden by all you other clueless people out there running those attacks.
[16:07.880 --> 16:10.460]  So, you're hiding real crimes.
[16:10.460 --> 16:21.460]  And again, when I've investigated bank robberies and stuff like this, and stuff like that, for every one real crime I'm supposed to be investigating, I usually end up running off investigating a dozen little petty crimes.
[16:21.620 --> 16:29.480]  Like stupid password guessing, trying things like field service, root no password, root root, root tour, or whatever.
[16:29.940 --> 16:31.640]  Where all you people are guessing it.
[16:31.800 --> 16:46.420]  And every time I see one of those, I kind of have to stop what I'm doing and figuring out if it's some clueless person, which it usually is, or it's somebody just doing some forward reconnaissance to see how easy it would be to break into this bank or organization to go back and steal information later.
[16:46.620 --> 16:50.560]  Because again, the criminals are out there using the same tools, and they're lazy.
[16:50.720 --> 16:55.980]  They want to do it quickly so that they get the highest payback, and they're going to try the default things just like you do.
[16:55.980 --> 17:04.220]  So if you think, oh no, well the intention is good, let me tell you, the difference in intention between hackers and criminals is about five keystrokes.
[17:04.580 --> 17:08.980]  You have to see what's going on up until the point where those five keystrokes are hit.
[17:09.220 --> 17:14.480]  For example, if it's a competitor wanting to take down a company, all you have to do is hit RM star.
[17:14.800 --> 17:19.980]  You know, RM star return, five keystrokes, and you've wiped out a whole corporate network possibly.
[17:19.980 --> 17:22.120]  Does everybody understand that one, at least RM?
[17:22.520 --> 17:23.680]  Everybody know what RM is?
[17:23.920 --> 17:24.160]  Good.
[17:24.480 --> 17:24.920]  Thank you.
[17:25.560 --> 17:26.420]  RM, remove.
[17:26.700 --> 17:27.080]  Anyway.
[17:28.700 --> 17:29.580]  No problem.
[17:30.460 --> 17:31.940]  So anyway, that's what happens.
[17:32.180 --> 17:35.620]  Then you've got the foreign intelligence agencies essentially doing the same things.
[17:35.760 --> 17:47.140]  And if a foreign intelligence agency needs something, they go ahead, and if, for example, they want to break into a specific organization, they'll go out and taunt hackers that are really trying to prove that they're elite.
[17:47.140 --> 17:55.440]  And they'll go out and say, oh, if you were cool, or if you weren't the loser that you are, you'll go ahead and get a login at this company.
[17:55.780 --> 17:58.860]  And then the hacker will eventually go out and get a login at the company.
[17:58.920 --> 18:02.540]  And what they do is, they use the clueless hackers to do their legwork, like I said.
[18:02.760 --> 18:08.540]  And again, foreign intelligence agencies, organized crime, all tend to use the same methods and gain information.
[18:08.980 --> 18:10.060]  Any questions on that?
[18:10.680 --> 18:11.360]  Oh, cool.
[18:11.520 --> 18:11.860]  Oh, yeah.
[18:15.020 --> 18:15.900]  I'm sorry, what was it?
[18:15.900 --> 18:17.220]  Do I have proof of the links?
[18:17.340 --> 18:19.400]  Do I have proof of the links?
[18:19.800 --> 18:21.980]  Yeah, well, I personally witnessed most of them.
[18:22.540 --> 18:22.620]  Oh.
[18:23.440 --> 18:24.700]  Yeah, that's a pain in the butt anyway.
[18:25.840 --> 18:26.280]  Yeah.
[18:33.180 --> 18:38.820]  Well, actually, for example, one of them is fairly... well, I've seen foreign intelligence agencies.
[18:38.960 --> 18:40.500]  By the way, I'll talk about this in a second.
[18:40.900 --> 18:42.020]  QSD bulletin board.
[18:42.120 --> 18:43.060]  Anybody know that?
[18:43.060 --> 18:52.880]  If you're hacking... back in the early 1990s, QSD and HCK, which is a German bulletin board system, were the places to go and exchange information.
[18:53.400 --> 18:57.080]  QSD is run by the French foreign intelligence agency, the DGSE.
[18:58.040 --> 19:06.500]  HCK is supposedly run by Project Rahab, which is out of the boom... well, whatever BND breaks out to, which is the German foreign intelligence agency.
[19:06.500 --> 19:15.120]  So they were out there planting, soliciting information, and all this information was funneling through these bulletin boards maintained by the foreign intelligence agencies.
[19:15.440 --> 19:18.300]  And I'll talk about a few more... well, talk about a few more.
[19:18.600 --> 19:20.620]  Yeah, actually, take the book off, please.
[19:22.220 --> 19:23.180]  Okay, next slide.
[19:24.160 --> 19:26.400]  Okay, let's talk about examples of crimes.
[19:26.600 --> 19:29.640]  I was mentioning before about how people are taunted.
[19:30.420 --> 19:42.620]  In one case, we saw this person, which we did trace back to the Russian mafia, and he was out there on all the bulletin boards, because we kept noticing this pattern, where he would be on this bulletin board saying, oh, if you were any good, you'd have something at this bank.
[19:42.660 --> 19:44.240]  If you were any good, you'd have something at this bank.
[19:44.320 --> 19:45.940]  If you were any good, you'd have something at this bank.
[19:45.940 --> 19:45.960]  If you were any good, you'd have something at this bank.
[19:46.280 --> 19:47.980]  And eventually, he found somebody.
[19:48.080 --> 19:50.920]  It's like, oh, yeah, well, I have super user there.
[19:50.920 --> 19:52.740]  It's like, really prove it.
[19:52.880 --> 20:08.160]  And the kid gave him the super user privileges for a system, which wasn't necessarily the financial trading systems, but it did provide the criminal a foot in the door, because we watched them come back into the organization, try to break in, and try to get super user privileges based on that.
[20:08.860 --> 20:12.360]  Next, there's the Israeli government, which is doing an awful lot of this.
[20:12.680 --> 20:20.780]  A lot of times in the U.S., the Israeli government is really good for recruiting people based upon being Jewish.
[20:20.920 --> 20:27.060]  And they go ahead and they have a lot of people out there, for example, coming to industrial espionage, for example, Jonathan Pollard.
[20:27.340 --> 20:30.100]  You have the Navy cases, which are going on besides of Pollard.
[20:30.160 --> 20:31.060]  You got some other people.
[20:31.300 --> 20:35.020]  And again, most of this, you know, they're going out and convincing people to do espionage.
[20:35.740 --> 20:43.980]  They're also convincing a bunch of Jewish hackers to travel over to Israel, and they're putting them up for a year or two, and they're out there hacking.
[20:44.160 --> 20:47.520]  And I know people who know the person who's out there hacking now who's really good.
[20:47.520 --> 20:51.060]  And again, there have been other people... Well, this was actually a good one.
[20:51.460 --> 20:54.200]  I know this person who works for a very large company.
[20:54.640 --> 21:07.900]  And what happened was, they had somebody hacking into a computer system via a line which was essentially dug under a fence, sent into a building, and then hooked onto the network.
[21:07.900 --> 21:13.100]  And it turns out, when they followed back the link, it turned out to go right to the Israeli embassy.
[21:13.740 --> 21:16.140]  So again, you know, just little things like that.
[21:16.320 --> 21:20.080]  But of course, that will never hit the media, because nobody likes that.
[21:20.260 --> 21:20.340]  Yeah.
[21:23.500 --> 21:24.800]  Israelis are hacking U.S. computers.
[21:26.140 --> 21:27.100]  Everybody's hacking U.S. computers.
[21:28.140 --> 21:29.180]  You know, it's a given.
[21:30.620 --> 21:31.900]  U.S. is like high... You know, U.S.
[21:32.000 --> 21:33.900]  is still the technology leader in the world.
[21:33.900 --> 21:36.800]  We're inventing... Even though everybody says, oh, the Japanese...
[21:36.800 --> 21:40.580]  The Japanese are good at taking technologies and using them in innovative ways.
[21:40.860 --> 21:43.280]  They're not good at developing the technologies up front.
[21:43.520 --> 21:44.860]  Like, for example, the Walkman.
[21:45.080 --> 21:46.700]  The Walkman is nothing more than U.S.
[21:46.780 --> 21:49.120]  developed technologies put together in a unique way.
[21:49.720 --> 21:52.320]  And same thing with software programs and things like that.
[21:53.320 --> 21:55.260]  Then there was Project Black Book.
[21:55.600 --> 21:58.840]  And again, this is where the Japanese were recruiting a lot of U.S.
[21:58.920 --> 21:59.340]  hackers.
[21:59.340 --> 22:02.060]  And again, people I know have been personally approached.
[22:02.160 --> 22:04.460]  And again, these are some of the real elite ones.
[22:04.760 --> 22:12.640]  And they were approached by the Japanese government to say, hey, we can make life very easy for you if you come over here and do what you love doing.
[22:12.840 --> 22:13.300]  The U.S.
[22:13.400 --> 22:15.520]  government doesn't appreciate the hackers like we do.
[22:15.720 --> 22:18.300]  Why don't you come here and we will love you for it.
[22:18.720 --> 22:21.120]  And again... Yeah.
[22:22.060 --> 22:24.820]  There are two or three people that we know of that did go over.
[22:24.960 --> 22:26.400]  The rest of them turned them down.
[22:27.200 --> 22:31.080]  Anyway, there's also hackers being solicited on a regular basis.
[22:31.920 --> 22:33.540]  I don't know about... the better hack...
[22:33.540 --> 22:35.720]  Well, let me tell you about the criminal underworld.
[22:35.860 --> 22:37.720]  Now, this will be a goal for half of you, I'll bet.
[22:38.060 --> 22:41.960]  But what happens is there are a bunch of hackers that are known to be very good.
[22:42.280 --> 22:46.660]  You know, there are people out there who, like, post really good stuff to bulletin boards.
[22:46.900 --> 22:49.820]  There's also those anonymous postings to Alt.2600.
[22:49.880 --> 22:57.800]  Anybody ever see one where, you know, come here and if you're good and you've done cracking, you know, respond back to this anonymous address?
[22:58.180 --> 23:00.700]  I've seen three of them over, like, the past three years.
[23:01.020 --> 23:04.060]  But what happens is people reply to those.
[23:04.200 --> 23:05.220]  Most of them are jokes.
[23:05.480 --> 23:10.640]  But every so often there's one or two which say, hey, if you can get this file...
[23:10.640 --> 23:11.940]  And what they do is they test them.
[23:12.100 --> 23:14.040]  They give them a file that they know is hard to get.
[23:14.200 --> 23:16.500]  And they say, if you can do this, we'll give you money.
[23:16.880 --> 23:18.960]  And again, that's just to get them sucked in.
[23:18.960 --> 23:22.880]  So they go ahead and they get about $1,000 for getting this file.
[23:23.040 --> 23:25.340]  Then what happens is they're periodically tasked.
[23:25.800 --> 23:29.000]  And the way it works, again, tasking is done primarily through anonymous email.
[23:29.320 --> 23:36.840]  And what happens is you send back the program, the file, whatever, to the people anonymously.
[23:36.860 --> 23:41.960]  And then you get a check from a 7-Eleven money order in the mail sometime in the near future.
[23:42.480 --> 23:45.540]  And apparently, I know two people that have told me they did it.
[23:45.640 --> 23:47.140]  And again, we checked this out a little bit.
[23:47.280 --> 23:49.200]  And it doesn't look like they're lying.
[23:49.680 --> 23:56.280]  And when I ask them how many other people they know that are doing it, they say there's about 100 hackers out there who make a living doing this.
[23:56.400 --> 24:01.160]  For example, they'll say that on average, they get paid $1,000 to $2,000 per person doing this.
[24:01.420 --> 24:02.680]  Some of them work in teams.
[24:03.080 --> 24:05.200]  Like for example, there might be five people working together.
[24:05.400 --> 24:07.280]  They'll charge like $2,000 a pop.
[24:07.380 --> 24:11.260]  But these five people can keep, on an ongoing basis, taking a lot of these jobs.
[24:11.260 --> 24:19.440]  And they say, on average, if you're really good, and somehow you're into this little very tight network, you can make, on average, $100,000 a year.
[24:20.520 --> 24:22.400]  And that's kind of like the professional...
[24:22.400 --> 24:23.940]  Well, I don't want to call them very organized.
[24:24.080 --> 24:26.580]  But that's the little underground there that does that.
[24:26.820 --> 24:30.320]  There's also another set of people where some people just know...
[24:30.320 --> 24:31.580]  Oh, you claim to be a hacker?
[24:31.800 --> 24:37.420]  I know one guy who was solicited by this couple that said, Hey, you know, you're kind of like famous, aren't you?
[24:37.480 --> 24:38.080]  It's like, well, yeah.
[24:38.080 --> 24:43.280]  And what happened was, they said, they approached him like a month later and said, Look, this is what we want you to do.
[24:43.440 --> 24:45.080]  We want you to come into our company.
[24:45.720 --> 24:49.060]  On this day, we will get you into the company after hours.
[24:49.300 --> 24:52.360]  And we want you to go ahead, transfer $5 million for us.
[24:52.460 --> 24:54.120]  And you could take whatever you can get.
[24:54.240 --> 24:56.160]  Because our company does financial transactions.
[24:56.460 --> 24:58.300]  You put one into the computer system.
[24:58.660 --> 24:59.900]  It'll run the next day.
[25:00.160 --> 25:01.600]  And then you could go ahead and keep whatever.
[25:01.840 --> 25:04.720]  Then he's like, well, you know, won't you be caught?
[25:04.720 --> 25:08.560]  And it's like, no, we know that they only audit the computer system once a month.
[25:08.920 --> 25:11.480]  So in other words, we'll have a month to get out of the country.
[25:12.020 --> 25:13.900]  And again, the guy tells me he turns it down.
[25:14.040 --> 25:14.920]  It'd be nice to think so.
[25:14.980 --> 25:16.180]  But anyway, that's a separate story.
[25:16.380 --> 25:17.740]  But this sort of stuff goes on.
[25:17.840 --> 25:20.420]  Again, another hacker I know was approached by...
[25:20.420 --> 25:22.000]  This was actually kind of funny.
[25:22.140 --> 25:24.280]  A guy who runs a porno website.
[25:25.140 --> 25:31.620]  And what happened was, he said, I want to find out what this other competing porno website offers and for what prices.
[25:32.020 --> 25:38.440]  I also want to find out who their customers are so I could go ahead and solicit their customers so I could offer them cheaper porno.
[25:39.220 --> 25:42.060]  And again, you know, I would imagine a lot of that goes on.
[25:42.140 --> 25:43.280]  Because I don't know how many people...
[25:43.280 --> 25:44.460]  I think there was one study.
[25:44.500 --> 25:46.040]  I think a few people can correct me.
[25:46.200 --> 25:49.280]  But wasn't it like porno on the internet is a billion dollar industry?
[25:50.100 --> 25:50.580]  Was that...
[25:50.580 --> 25:51.860]  I don't know if people read the same thing.
[25:52.040 --> 25:53.900]  But again, it's worth a lot of money.
[25:54.000 --> 25:56.360]  It might not be a billion dollars, but it's worth a lot of money.
[25:56.740 --> 25:59.740]  That is the biggest commercial use of the internet as far as I know.
[26:00.360 --> 26:00.760]  Okay.
[26:00.960 --> 26:01.460]  I also...
[26:01.460 --> 26:04.680]  Those are a few examples of hackers being solicited for crimes.
[26:05.160 --> 26:08.900]  I also mentioned the QSD and HCK bulletin boards that are run.
[26:09.160 --> 26:09.980]  It was kind of cool.
[26:10.100 --> 26:13.700]  Let me tell you the way somebody found out QSD was run by a DG...
[26:13.700 --> 26:15.200]  I'm sorry, part of the DGSE.
[26:15.440 --> 26:16.240]  It was kind of funny.
[26:16.300 --> 26:21.320]  A hacker hacked the bulletin board and found out it was attached to the DGSE network.
[26:21.880 --> 26:23.260]  And again, that's just really stupid.
[26:23.400 --> 26:26.900]  But you see, even the foreign intelligence agencies make stupid mistakes.
[26:27.480 --> 26:28.200]  Next slide, please.
[26:30.480 --> 26:32.260]  Okay, now let me talk about this.
[26:32.760 --> 26:37.340]  Now getting back to this, like the inner circle, the outer circle, that's kind of like the examples of basic crimes.
[26:37.400 --> 26:39.960]  I'll talk about a few more as the presentation goes on.
[26:40.300 --> 26:47.640]  But the real hackers, the people that are out there trying to learn about computers, are offended by all the people that are out there breaking in.
[26:47.640 --> 26:49.760]  Because they say, you give us a bad name.
[26:50.220 --> 26:51.520]  There was at this...
[26:51.520 --> 27:02.120]  We were at the Black Hat briefings, which was right before DEF CON, where the hackers got together and taught professionals how to protect their computers based upon how people penetrate computers.
[27:02.120 --> 27:05.220]  And what happened was, you know, they were there to meet the hackers.
[27:05.280 --> 27:07.560]  And I don't consider this a typical hacker panel.
[27:07.820 --> 27:12.780]  You know, you had Hobbit, you had r00t, you had Mudge and a few other people.
[27:13.240 --> 27:14.940]  You know, those aren't your typical hackers.
[27:15.120 --> 27:20.020]  And everybody said, well, what about all those people that are just out there using the tools you've developed to break in?
[27:20.020 --> 27:23.320]  And their quote was, they're not hackers, they're clueless teenagers.
[27:23.820 --> 27:34.160]  Now, if I ask how many of you are clueless teenagers that are just using tools to break into systems or just scripts people give you or tell you, oh, type in PS minus AUX and then kill.
[27:34.740 --> 27:38.760]  You know, I'd bet if any of you answered honestly, about half the room would raise your hands.
[27:39.320 --> 27:42.660]  So again, you know, this is, they started getting offended by this.
[27:42.760 --> 27:43.200]  Next, please.
[27:44.840 --> 27:46.760]  Okay, they say it gives hackers a bad name.
[27:46.900 --> 27:47.560]  Talked about that.
[27:47.560 --> 27:52.240]  And they use the term, again, they use the term clueless teenagers, not hackers.
[27:52.800 --> 27:58.520]  And again, this is kind of, you know, hit on me because I'm sitting here trying to figure out who goes in which circles.
[27:58.640 --> 27:59.280]  Anyway, continue.
[27:59.900 --> 28:05.520]  And again, their quote was, hacking is about learning, not about breaking into computers.
[28:05.700 --> 28:08.120]  Breaking into computers, again, is totally clueless.
[28:08.380 --> 28:15.660]  Hacking is about learning about the internals, about computers, networking, how to do new and unique things with it, finding problems with it.
[28:15.660 --> 28:18.440]  It's not about running Sendmail 150 times.
[28:20.380 --> 28:22.760]  Okay, let's talk about, are you clueless?
[28:23.020 --> 28:25.640]  Let's figure out if you fit into these categories.
[28:26.700 --> 28:29.360]  Some of you already kind of get the feeling you know where you are.
[28:29.480 --> 28:29.860]  That's good.
[28:30.360 --> 28:31.760]  Okay, it's a ten-point test.
[28:32.720 --> 28:34.720]  And see which circle you fit into.
[28:35.760 --> 28:38.040]  And again, this came out of Black Hat Discussions.
[28:38.300 --> 28:41.580]  I kind of checked the questions out with Mudge and Hobbit to see if they're fair.
[28:41.580 --> 28:47.880]  And again, the purpose of this is just to see if you're really out there to break into computers or you're really out there to learn.
[28:48.600 --> 28:50.800]  So, anyway, next.
[28:51.860 --> 28:52.880]  Okay, first question.
[28:53.100 --> 28:57.640]  Have you ever written a third generation language program of more than 500 lines?
[28:57.900 --> 28:58.780]  Oh, let me ask this question.
[28:58.900 --> 29:01.340]  How many people know what a third generation language is?
[29:02.340 --> 29:03.480]  Oh, this is pathetic.
[29:03.480 --> 29:06.600]  A third generation language is like C.
[29:06.980 --> 29:08.680]  Basic is even a third generation.
[29:09.140 --> 29:11.140]  Perl, etc.
[29:11.880 --> 29:12.800]  Okay, next.
[29:13.660 --> 29:15.440]  One point for yes.
[29:15.940 --> 29:16.280]  Next.
[29:17.400 --> 29:27.480]  And the reason for this as a question is that if you can't program a slightly complex program, then you really don't understand operating system source code.
[29:27.640 --> 29:32.080]  Because those operating systems you break into are nothing more than a series of source code.
[29:32.280 --> 29:33.240]  They're programs.
[29:33.800 --> 29:38.480]  You know, Sendmail isn't just this thing that's conveniently there for hackers to break into them.
[29:38.720 --> 29:42.340]  Sendmail is actually a software program that's supposed to do a useful thing.
[29:42.940 --> 29:45.260]  Okay, so anyway, keep that in mind.
[29:45.500 --> 29:48.140]  And subtract a half point if you've never programmed.
[29:50.500 --> 29:50.980]  Next.
[29:50.980 --> 29:54.300]  Can you understand attack scripts line by line?
[29:55.200 --> 29:55.680]  Next.
[29:56.240 --> 29:57.440]  One point for yes.
[29:58.440 --> 30:02.960]  And if you don't bother looking at them before you run them, then you're really stupid.
[30:03.420 --> 30:15.220]  You know, if you're gonna go to a website and download a hacker program, you know, let's face it, their first hack could be, let's see which moron's gonna download this program and just run it without checking it out.
[30:15.440 --> 30:17.380]  And you'd be surprised how many people are there.
[30:17.380 --> 30:20.600]  I know somebody that went to, you know, the Java hack page.
[30:20.800 --> 30:23.720]  And they went ahead and said, click on this for the Java hack.
[30:24.120 --> 30:25.560]  And he said, well, wait a second.
[30:25.660 --> 30:26.960]  Let me... he had a clue.
[30:27.180 --> 30:29.240]  And the first thing he did was turn off Java.
[30:29.600 --> 30:32.640]  Then he clicked on the link and then it chugged away for a second.
[30:32.800 --> 30:37.960]  Then it's like, how the hell am I gonna go ahead and destroy your hard drive if you have Java turned off?
[30:38.500 --> 30:40.600]  So anyway, just keep that in mind.
[30:41.080 --> 30:41.480]  Next.
[30:42.780 --> 30:45.320]  Can you port scripts to other platforms?
[30:46.100 --> 30:46.440]  Next.
[30:46.440 --> 30:47.000]  Correct.
[30:47.060 --> 30:48.260]  One point for yes.
[30:48.840 --> 30:56.700]  And then this basically shows that you understand attack scripts and know the difference between different operating systems environments.
[30:57.060 --> 31:02.960]  For example, the load module attack script is gonna run one way on a Solaris box.
[31:02.980 --> 31:06.360]  It's gonna run another way on an HP box and so on.
[31:06.520 --> 31:09.080]  And you have to know where to look for files.
[31:09.080 --> 31:11.620]  And maybe... well, that's the next question.
[31:11.720 --> 31:11.960]  Go ahead.
[31:12.540 --> 31:16.480]  You can modify the tools for optimization or bug fixes.
[31:16.960 --> 31:18.900]  You know, a lot of the tools... well, go on.
[31:19.580 --> 31:20.820]  One point for yes.
[31:21.520 --> 31:26.080]  And again, tools have varying quality and it shows that you can understand them.
[31:26.080 --> 31:31.220]  In other words, hey, wouldn't it be cool when I'm writing an exploitation script that I downloaded off the internet?
[31:31.460 --> 31:34.840]  And yes, I download them off the internet when I'm doing penetration testing.
[31:34.960 --> 31:37.280]  Because hey, I'm getting paid and I want to do it quickly.
[31:37.540 --> 31:47.680]  But I'm gonna take those scripts, look at them line by line, and then make like a super attack script on it that automatically goes out, searches the likely directories, and says, hey, wait a second.
[31:47.680 --> 31:51.840]  This is this type of box, then this file's in this location, and needs these parameters.
[31:52.120 --> 31:56.220]  So you go ahead and write a nice little attack script, which optimizes what's going on.
[31:56.560 --> 31:56.940]  Next.
[31:58.460 --> 32:00.520]  This is a big question in my mind.
[32:00.680 --> 32:07.820]  Have you at least tried, and the word is tried, to write your own attack script based off an advisory?
[32:08.020 --> 32:10.760]  For example, you have cert advisory, SIAC advisories.
[32:10.980 --> 32:12.720]  You have postings to bug track.
[32:13.000 --> 32:15.800]  You have postings to cypherpunks and things like that.
[32:15.800 --> 32:19.200]  And you find out, they say, here is a problem with a computer.
[32:20.080 --> 32:31.920]  You should go out, and if you really want to learn about computers, you should try to say, hey, I'm gonna see, if I have half a brain, I'm gonna see, well, I'm gonna see if I can apply what I learned and develop my own attack script.
[32:31.980 --> 32:32.220]  Next.
[32:32.860 --> 32:34.020]  One point for yes.
[32:34.860 --> 32:36.540]  Subtract three points for no.
[32:36.740 --> 32:43.700]  And again, this shows your understanding, and more importantly, your willingness to apply what you learned.
[32:43.700 --> 32:48.680]  I don't condone you writing attack scripts and doing it, but I realize you're gonna try to use them.
[32:49.060 --> 32:57.700]  But the question is, do you have half a brain and the energy and effort willing to try to go ahead and apply what you claim to be learned about computers?
[32:57.820 --> 32:58.080]  Next.
[32:59.440 --> 33:04.620]  Have you ever installed Linux or another UNIX operating system on your own computer system?
[33:04.960 --> 33:05.160]  Next.
[33:05.640 --> 33:07.300]  I'll even give you NT server.
[33:07.520 --> 33:08.040]  What the hell?
[33:11.610 --> 33:13.070]  One point for yes.
[33:14.350 --> 33:17.330]  And again, this is really getting your hands on the internals.
[33:17.430 --> 33:22.670]  Because I don't think you should be hacking somebody else's computer system before you tried hacking your own.
[33:23.070 --> 33:24.510]  And again, it's free.
[33:24.890 --> 33:26.250]  You can get Linux for free.
[33:26.350 --> 33:29.190]  You can get, you know, go out there and buy from the L0pht.
[33:29.270 --> 33:30.730]  You can buy OpenBSD.
[33:31.010 --> 33:33.070]  You can download versions of BSD.
[33:33.070 --> 33:40.870]  And again, if you want to learn about computers, what better computer to learn about than one that you don't have to worry that they're finding out that you're there.
[33:41.350 --> 33:47.350]  So again, all this is widely and freely available for you to learn about computers if that's your goal.
[33:47.470 --> 33:47.710]  Next.
[33:48.630 --> 33:50.290]  Find and install needed patches.
[33:50.950 --> 33:58.610]  In other words, after you've gone ahead and installed Linux or NT or whatever, you know, go ahead and fix it so it's a secure system.
[33:58.610 --> 33:59.650]  One point for yes.
[34:00.310 --> 34:07.030]  And for the most part, for those of you that don't realize this, it's much harder to protect the system than it is to attack it.
[34:07.410 --> 34:08.710]  Anybody ever find that out?
[34:10.430 --> 34:10.910]  Yeah.
[34:11.230 --> 34:11.870]  Very good.
[34:12.370 --> 34:16.610]  So anyway, you have to go ahead and find and install the needed patches.
[34:16.610 --> 34:21.250]  And this shows you really, at least are trying to learn how to protect the computer.
[34:21.610 --> 34:23.750]  And besides that, hit the return key.
[34:24.570 --> 34:28.250]  Besides that, it's a marketable skill that you claim to be trying to learn.
[34:29.010 --> 34:29.590]  Okay, next.
[34:29.710 --> 34:31.250]  Network multiple systems.
[34:31.750 --> 34:32.870]  One point for yes.
[34:33.910 --> 34:35.870]  And again, apply what you should be learning.
[34:35.950 --> 34:36.410]  Let me go back.
[34:36.530 --> 34:38.190]  I should have explained that slightly more.
[34:38.370 --> 34:53.210]  What I mean by networking multiple systems is that you actually go ahead, you have your box, and you might buy another box for $500, or borrow your friend's box, tell your friend to bring it over, or maybe you can connect over the internet via modems and try to get them working,
[34:53.450 --> 34:55.310]  sharing files, and all that sort of stuff.
[34:55.890 --> 34:59.190]  And again, very... well, hit the return key.
[34:59.270 --> 35:00.010]  I think this is there.
[35:00.230 --> 35:03.050]  And again, it's learning to also protect the network.
[35:03.230 --> 35:03.450]  Next.
[35:04.010 --> 35:08.010]  And it's also a very profitable skill to have.
[35:09.170 --> 35:09.650]  Next.
[35:09.650 --> 35:09.730]  Next.
[35:11.050 --> 35:14.350]  Can you get shared printers working on the network?
[35:15.450 --> 35:16.010]  One...
[35:16.010 --> 35:17.510]  One point for yes.
[35:18.470 --> 35:24.070]  And if you've never administered a system, if you've ever administered a system, you'll know why this is important.
[35:24.350 --> 35:25.370]  Let me tell you.
[35:25.530 --> 35:30.730]  I've had craze talking to apples, talking to little Windows 311 boxes.
[35:31.250 --> 35:38.110]  And dammit, if you ever get all those printers working together properly, you know, printers will be your biggest downfall.
[35:38.230 --> 35:38.490]  Next.
[35:38.490 --> 35:38.550]  Next.
[35:39.270 --> 35:42.310]  Have you ever maintained a multi-platform network?
[35:43.430 --> 35:44.930]  One point for yes.
[35:45.730 --> 35:49.110]  And if you know what multi-platform means, I'll give you a half point.
[35:51.150 --> 35:53.050]  How many people know what that means?
[35:54.490 --> 35:55.430]  It's a start.
[35:56.130 --> 36:00.790]  Multi-platform means that you're running multiple operating systems on a single network.
[36:01.030 --> 36:01.150]  Next.
[36:02.190 --> 36:06.410]  Have you ever stolen a telephone handset because you think that makes you a phreaker?
[36:08.210 --> 36:09.350]  You'd be surprised.
[36:10.650 --> 36:12.310]  Subtract five points for yes.
[36:16.920 --> 36:19.120]  You know, a lot of people think this is funny.
[36:19.420 --> 36:22.420]  But, I mean, honestly, it should have been, like, subtract 15 or something.
[36:22.800 --> 36:25.260]  But, you know, I mean, this really looks funny.
[36:25.260 --> 36:30.820]  But, you know, for some reason, everybody was out at DEFCON, like, not this year, but last year.
[36:31.040 --> 36:34.300]  And all the telephone handsets at the Monte Carlo were missing.
[36:34.560 --> 36:36.820]  That really makes you hackers look very good.
[36:36.820 --> 36:43.060]  And for some reason, I really wonder why you think petty theft makes you a hacker or it's part of the hacker culture.
[36:43.320 --> 36:44.920]  You know, just a thought to think about.
[36:45.500 --> 36:46.020]  Next.
[36:46.840 --> 36:51.820]  Have you ever intentionally changed the computer system you hacked or damaged the system?
[36:52.060 --> 36:53.400]  Actually, yeah, damaged.
[36:53.860 --> 36:55.920]  Don't even bother totaling your score.
[36:56.760 --> 37:00.120]  You know, again, remember, you're out there to learn.
[37:00.120 --> 37:01.680]  You're not out there to cause harm.
[37:04.660 --> 37:05.940]  Let's total this up.
[37:06.680 --> 37:08.280]  Seven to ten, you're probably not clueless.
[37:09.540 --> 37:11.540]  Five or six, you're off to a good start.
[37:12.460 --> 37:14.100]  Zero or four, you're definitely clueless.
[37:14.160 --> 37:19.300]  And, yes, for those people who have stolen telephone handsets, keep a low profile.
[37:19.920 --> 37:20.360]  Next.
[37:21.900 --> 37:27.220]  Okay, let me stop and talk a word about software testing, because now we're talking about marketable skills here.
[37:27.620 --> 37:32.080]  You know, everybody thinks software testing is kind of like a very low-tech thing to do.
[37:32.240 --> 37:35.060]  It's the job you get when you really suck at everything else.
[37:35.200 --> 37:36.280]  Well, let me tell you.
[37:36.540 --> 37:38.360]  What do you think the L0pht is doing?
[37:39.020 --> 37:41.200]  They're out there finding problems with software.
[37:41.380 --> 37:43.300]  They're out there looking at the internals.
[37:43.480 --> 37:50.000]  And, to me, I don't know why they're doing this, but, essentially, they're doing beta testing for Microsoft, in my opinion, for free.
[37:50.720 --> 37:55.120]  You know, I think they've got to figure out a way to get paid for it, but that's their business, not mine.
[37:55.120 --> 37:59.420]  But, anyway, this is really, though, how you learn about a computer system.
[37:59.580 --> 38:06.160]  If you're interested in hacking, hacking, to you, if you're doing it legally, should be nothing more than software testing.
[38:06.460 --> 38:11.680]  You want to beat the system to death and find out what the problem is, how the systems work, and all that.
[38:11.980 --> 38:15.760]  And, besides that, you know, some people do pay a lot for people doing that to them.
[38:15.760 --> 38:16.680]  Next.
[38:17.980 --> 38:18.540]  Okay.
[38:18.960 --> 38:19.860]  This is a big thing.
[38:20.160 --> 38:22.420]  Computers were not developed for your enjoyment.
[38:22.760 --> 38:27.280]  Nobody developed Sendmail so that you have something to do on a dark evening.
[38:27.740 --> 38:29.560]  Sendmail is there for a purpose.
[38:30.000 --> 38:30.300]  Next.
[38:31.700 --> 38:36.140]  The only reasons computers exist is because they serve a business purpose.
[38:36.300 --> 38:37.640]  This is what people don't realize.
[38:37.640 --> 38:45.820]  When I was up on the penetration testing panel, you know, we were talking about, if you just hack into a computer system, it proves nothing.
[38:46.040 --> 38:48.000]  But when you hand the CEO their...
[38:48.000 --> 38:52.300]  Basically, you hand the CEO their company's ass, that gets their attention.
[38:52.560 --> 38:52.940]  Why?
[38:53.120 --> 38:54.600]  Because computers are a tool.
[38:54.760 --> 38:57.040]  It doesn't matter if you break into a computer.
[38:57.040 --> 38:59.700]  It matters what you do with it after you break in.
[39:00.080 --> 39:05.040]  And again, if you have a computer, it doesn't matter to that you have a computer sitting there.
[39:05.140 --> 39:06.740]  It matters what do you do with it at home.
[39:07.240 --> 39:07.460]  Next.
[39:08.520 --> 39:11.600]  And, again, college helps you understand this.
[39:11.760 --> 39:12.480]  Next, quick.
[39:13.040 --> 39:15.520]  And I won't take any comments on the last thing.
[39:15.720 --> 39:18.060]  If you want to be stupid, that's your thing.
[39:18.100 --> 39:26.120]  If you don't want a degree, and you want to get paid and get stuck into a system administrator career path for your whole life, That's your privilege, not mine.
[39:26.620 --> 39:26.880]  Next.
[39:28.240 --> 39:38.480]  And the big thing why I think a college education is a little bit more important, and actually this is more for anything else, if you can't write or you can't communicate, it really doesn't make a damn.
[39:38.720 --> 39:50.500]  If the people at the L0pht went out and just found a bunch of software bugs and didn't tell anybody about it, couldn't explain that in an English-like fashion that people could understand, it would be totally useless.
[39:50.500 --> 39:57.740]  And any practice you get, writing or talking or whatever, helps you be more effective at doing things.
[39:57.920 --> 40:08.200]  Again, it helps you out there, it helps you communicate better, it helps you get paid more, because I got to admit, you know, there are a lot of people much more qualified than I am that do the job I do.
[40:08.620 --> 40:15.160]  The thing is, I can express my opinions better, and I can also express to management what the implications are.
[40:15.720 --> 40:19.080]  Communications makes you that much more elite, if you want to call it that.
[40:19.340 --> 40:19.820]  Next.
[40:21.300 --> 40:25.340]  Okay, so if you're not trying to learn about computer systems, go ahead.
[40:26.460 --> 40:28.180]  Don't call yourself a hacker.
[40:28.760 --> 40:39.300]  You know, if you're not out there trying to learn about the internals, if you're not out there trying to go ahead and find out the problems, find out how to improve your own computer systems, don't call yourself a hacker.
[40:39.800 --> 40:42.060]  Call yourself what you are, which is?
[40:42.340 --> 40:43.200]  A voyeur.
[40:43.480 --> 40:44.920]  I kind of don't like that thing.
[40:45.220 --> 40:47.920]  I mean, it kind of, you know, it's a little bit more seedy than you deserve.
[40:48.220 --> 40:49.500]  But, um, next.
[40:50.120 --> 40:51.340]  Call yourself a yenta.
[40:52.080 --> 40:53.300]  You know, I'm out here.
[40:53.460 --> 40:57.680]  I grew up in Brooklyn, New York, where everybody is out there in the apartment building.
[40:57.680 --> 41:04.100]  And all these old ladies who don't have a life of their own try to make a life of their own by talking about what other people are doing.
[41:04.100 --> 41:09.660]  When I ask hackers what they're doing, it's like, oh, we just want to learn the information that's being kept from us.
[41:09.820 --> 41:16.100]  It's like, well, first of all, before you want to learn the information about me, for example, tell me everything about yourself.
[41:16.100 --> 41:17.720]  Tell me everything about your family.
[41:18.040 --> 41:19.860]  Tell me when's the last time you went to the bathroom.
[41:20.000 --> 41:21.320]  Tell me all your money.
[41:21.640 --> 41:22.580]  Tell me where you keep it.
[41:22.660 --> 41:24.260]  Tell me everything about your life.
[41:24.660 --> 41:26.420]  They don't want to do that for some reason.
[41:26.780 --> 41:30.540]  But yet, they want to know the same thing about all of you as long as it's not them.
[41:31.100 --> 41:34.440]  You know, there's some little, you know, irony about this.
[41:34.600 --> 41:37.600]  And I got to admit, you know, a little bit of this is hypocritical.
[41:38.360 --> 41:55.400]  You know, I admire Emmanuel Goldstein in some ways, but for example, he was on a TV show, or actually he was on his radio show once, where he was saying how he doesn't want anybody to know, for example, that he bought this case of beer because he was upset that he went into a store and they took down some information about it when he bought the beer.
[41:55.960 --> 42:00.340]  And what happened was, you know, nobody wants anybody to have a record of that.
[42:00.340 --> 42:05.540]  Not because you're embarrassed you brought beer, but because it's none of anybody's goddamn business, right?
[42:06.120 --> 42:11.060]  But yet, if it's on a computer system, all of you want to learn about it as long as it's not about you.
[42:11.680 --> 42:14.480]  And for some reason, everybody can understand that.
[42:14.740 --> 42:16.300]  I kind of think that's stupid.
[42:16.640 --> 42:21.920]  So anyway, if you don't like the word yenta because it doesn't, you know, it's not high-tech enough for you, go ahead.
[42:22.360 --> 42:24.020]  Call yourself a digital yenta.
[42:25.300 --> 42:28.200]  You know, that's really what you are.
[42:28.200 --> 42:34.620]  If you don't have a life of your own and you're just trying to break into computers to learn about all this hidden information, you're a digital yenta.
[42:35.020 --> 42:36.180]  So anyway, next.
[42:37.500 --> 42:42.200]  Just remember, and this is getting back more into the criminal stuff because I do want to talk a little bit more about that.
[42:42.980 --> 42:45.700]  You're helping the criminals no matter what your intentions.
[42:46.120 --> 42:49.240]  Again, most people think it's a good thing to exchange information.
[42:49.660 --> 42:51.520]  Again, the L0pht is out there.
[42:51.640 --> 42:54.120]  They realize their tools are being used by criminals.
[42:54.440 --> 42:56.640]  And again, that's part of what they're doing.
[42:57.500 --> 42:58.680]  And they realize that.
[42:58.840 --> 43:03.040]  Again, you know, the thought is if companies were protecting themselves well enough, it wouldn't matter.
[43:03.480 --> 43:05.900]  And again, to a certain extent, I have to agree to that.
[43:06.000 --> 43:08.340]  The problem is the criminals are still out there exploiting it.
[43:08.860 --> 43:12.140]  The big thing, though, is, again, this happens on a regular basis.
[43:12.300 --> 43:18.620]  Because let me tell you, the criminals, the foreign intelligence agencies, every attack we've seen have been straightforward attacks.
[43:18.740 --> 43:22.180]  And then there was a comment somebody made, oh, that's just the ones you're catching.
[43:22.520 --> 43:30.840]  When we go ahead and put a line sniffer where we see every goddamn bit that goes across, we can tell which hacks are being used.
[43:30.840 --> 43:34.720]  Lots of government agencies do... well, the better government agencies do this.
[43:34.900 --> 43:36.460]  The better companies do this.
[43:36.720 --> 43:39.760]  And again, we're watching some new attacks being developed.
[43:39.920 --> 43:42.120]  And there are very, very, very few of them.
[43:42.340 --> 43:46.380]  There's like one new attack that we see every other month that's not reported.
[43:46.660 --> 43:47.920]  And again, these are problems.
[43:47.980 --> 43:50.820]  If you think, oh, it's out there on the leading edge, it's like, no, it's not.
[43:51.020 --> 43:53.820]  Most of it is just Sendmail 150 times.
[43:54.060 --> 43:57.120]  You'd be surprised how many people actually think that's still good.
[43:57.540 --> 43:57.980]  Okay.
[43:59.300 --> 44:01.180]  Now, let's talk about this for a while.
[44:01.400 --> 44:05.040]  Let's say you still think that it's right to hack, which you probably do.
[44:05.140 --> 44:06.560]  I'm not here to change anybody's mind.
[44:06.660 --> 44:08.440]  I'm here to open up your eyes a little bit.
[44:08.820 --> 44:10.560]  The laws are only gonna get worse.
[44:11.040 --> 44:18.660]  You know, Brock Meeks, I'm sorry if I'm bastardizing his name, but basically he was up there saying you're all doing a lousy PR job.
[44:18.780 --> 44:19.880]  And that's really true.
[44:20.020 --> 44:21.680]  You are doing a lousy PR job.
[44:21.820 --> 44:24.600]  But personally, I don't think it's gonna get any better.
[44:24.840 --> 44:26.120]  The world is out there.
[44:26.120 --> 44:28.400]  Computers are becoming more and more connected.
[44:28.900 --> 44:31.480]  Everybody has more and more information on a computer.
[44:31.720 --> 44:37.880]  And I don't think people are just gonna welcome hackers randomly choosing which computers they're gonna break into.
[44:38.340 --> 44:39.960]  I don't think I want that.
[44:40.120 --> 44:45.920]  I don't think you want somebody randomly choosing to break into your computer, breaking into your credit record or whatever.
[44:46.320 --> 44:48.920]  You know, so, laws are only gonna get worse.
[44:49.440 --> 44:49.800]  Next.
[44:51.240 --> 44:54.220]  And as other hackers will tell you, and this is the more important thing.
[44:54.580 --> 44:57.560]  Everybody's out there, it's like, but I'm hacking and that's the right thing to do.
[44:57.660 --> 44:58.640]  It's like, well, no.
[44:58.900 --> 45:04.140]  Again, to quote the initial speaker, what part of jail don't you understand?
[45:04.720 --> 45:06.800]  They really wanna put people in jail.
[45:07.460 --> 45:09.520]  You know, again, that's what cops do.
[45:09.640 --> 45:12.020]  I mean, people like to say, oh, cops are only out there for the hackers.
[45:12.020 --> 45:16.720]  No, they really go with the gusto for anybody they're trying to prosecute.
[45:17.020 --> 45:23.080]  And again, if you know it's a crime, and let's face it, let's say you think they're really out to screw you.
[45:23.200 --> 45:34.800]  If you think they're really out to screw you, and you do something that's criminal and might attract their attention, you gotta expect that if they catch you doing something criminal, they're gonna really screw you.
[45:35.200 --> 45:36.740]  Accept that as a fact.
[45:36.920 --> 45:37.320]  Next.
[45:38.960 --> 45:44.820]  And, you know, if you ever watched Beretta, most of you probably haven't, but don't do the crime if you can't do the time.
[45:45.180 --> 45:47.780]  Because, again, you're out there helping people.
[45:47.940 --> 45:54.080]  And, again, I want to keep reiterating that when I'm there investigating a crime, I'm going ahead and investigating a real crime.
[45:54.240 --> 45:59.560]  I'm not out there to put, like, you know, your clueless teenagers in jail because it's not worth anybody's effort.
[45:59.680 --> 46:06.500]  Although I should say there was a teenager who took down a website with that Microsoft website hack, if you remember that.
[46:06.500 --> 46:08.280]  The one that took down the Microsoft site.
[46:08.580 --> 46:12.120]  But what happened was somebody used that against a commercial website.
[46:12.380 --> 46:13.840]  And they had really good administrators.
[46:14.340 --> 46:15.600]  How many people know what they did?
[46:17.300 --> 46:18.280]  I can't believe that.
[46:18.420 --> 46:19.300]  Yeah, well, let me tell you.
[46:19.380 --> 46:26.500]  They billed the kid's mother who did that $4,000 for investigating and fixing the problem.
[46:26.980 --> 46:30.180]  And, again, I'd like to see more of that because it kind of puts on the effect.
[46:30.420 --> 46:35.980]  Because, again, hacking itself, if it's investigated properly, costs people money just to investigate.
[46:36.540 --> 46:40.840]  And, again, more importantly for my purposes, I really don't want to waste my time with you.
[46:40.900 --> 46:45.860]  When I said earlier that you're really all just pains in the ass when you're breaking into systems, that's really all you are.
[46:45.960 --> 46:47.020]  I don't want to bother with you.
[46:47.100 --> 46:50.980]  I want to bother with the criminals because they're doing better things and more interesting things.
[46:51.120 --> 46:54.380]  It's more fun to investigate somebody that's stealing a million dollars.
[46:54.600 --> 46:55.920]  And that's the really good stuff.
[46:55.980 --> 46:57.940]  I don't like to have to go off and do other things.
[46:57.940 --> 47:02.900]  Because, again, you're giving them the tools and the knowledge to attack the systems.
[47:03.180 --> 47:05.660]  And that's where hackers and criminals collide.
[47:06.140 --> 47:07.440]  Again, I have that briefing.
[47:07.640 --> 47:09.480]  You know, again, you're not just out there in a bubble.
[47:09.720 --> 47:11.300]  You're out there in the real world.
[47:11.440 --> 47:12.760]  And let me tell you something.
[47:12.940 --> 47:19.340]  If anybody by chance happens to accidentally take down a financial system, you think the government's going to come after you?
[47:19.520 --> 47:22.760]  Well, let's talk about this if you want to get really scared about breaking into banks.
[47:27.940 --> 47:29.880]  It's called a stable financial system.
[47:30.120 --> 47:35.380]  They like the banks up and running because billions of dollars are laundered illegally a day.
[47:35.900 --> 47:37.600]  And that's kind of a large sum of money.
[47:37.800 --> 47:48.280]  Now, if you were the Russian mafia or you were a drug cartel laundering a few million dollars a day individually and some hacker accidentally took down a system, you're going to be pissed at them.
[47:48.480 --> 47:50.140]  And you might get away with it once.
[47:50.380 --> 47:52.240]  Well, that hacker might get away with it once.
[47:52.340 --> 47:56.080]  If it happens a second time, they're not going to wait for a third time.
[47:56.080 --> 48:00.920]  They will come after you to make sure that their money laundering will go on.
[48:01.300 --> 48:05.700]  And again, just think of what they do to, like, you know, little drug dealers that steal money from them.
[48:05.960 --> 48:12.260]  Little drug dealers that steal money from them, they come after you and they say, this first time we will forgive you for being stupid.
[48:12.560 --> 48:13.640]  Give us back the money.
[48:14.020 --> 48:19.060]  What happens, the way people turn themselves in is they've already spent the money and they go running to the police.
[48:19.240 --> 48:21.620]  But usually they find some way to get the money back.
[48:21.860 --> 48:25.800]  If they steal money from the drug cartels the second time, they're really in trouble.
[48:26.080 --> 48:36.220]  Same thing, if you screw up some sort of drug deal or some organized crime thing, they will come after you when you do it the second time, because they don't like things happening a third time.
[48:36.620 --> 48:41.180]  And again, you can actually read the newspapers on this.
[48:41.260 --> 48:54.700]  This is my source for one of them, where some people were, let's just say, hacked, did some nasty things for a criminal organization, and they did some nasty things against the criminal organization, and they did come after them.
[48:55.740 --> 48:56.560]  That's about it.
[48:56.660 --> 49:00.140]  I'm kind of ranting right now, but let me ask you a quick question.
[49:00.400 --> 49:02.960]  How many people scored between 7 and 10?
[49:05.000 --> 49:05.840]  Yay, you!
[49:06.180 --> 49:08.080]  Next, 5 to 6.
[49:09.660 --> 49:11.820]  Okay, how many people are totally clueless?
[49:13.380 --> 49:15.940]  Yay for people that actually admit it.
[49:16.540 --> 49:23.060]  But maybe this gives you a little bit of guidance on what you should be doing if you really claim to be a hacker versus being a digital yenta.
[49:23.060 --> 49:28.380]  So anyway, if there's nothing else, I will take questions if you have any.
[49:30.780 --> 49:31.380]  Yeah.
[49:32.400 --> 49:33.360]  Oh, sorry.
[49:34.260 --> 49:36.960]  Oh, Corporate Espionage, $26.
[49:37.700 --> 49:42.820]  It was a recommended book at Amazon.com in June, and they were selling it for 40% off.
[49:42.820 --> 49:47.320]  So you might get it for like 30% off now at Amazon.com.
[49:47.640 --> 49:50.360]  Yeah, give you a credit card over the internet right on that network there.
[49:50.440 --> 49:50.980]  That would be smart.
[49:51.260 --> 49:55.300]  But anyway, but it's available at Barnes & Noble and better bookstores everywhere.
[49:56.880 --> 49:57.760]  Next, any questions?
[49:58.200 --> 49:58.360]  Yeah.
[50:01.280 --> 50:03.200]  Oh, yeah, could you...
[50:07.160 --> 50:11.400]  You know, you're saying here that, you know, you shouldn't hack or anything like that.
[50:11.520 --> 50:15.820]  And you should just, you know, more or less tell people that they have holes in their system, that you assume they'll fix them themselves.
[50:16.460 --> 50:18.380]  It's just like L0pht was saying today.
[50:18.520 --> 50:21.320]  You know, they inform Microsoft all about the problems that they have.
[50:21.320 --> 50:22.260]  They don't believe them.
[50:22.860 --> 50:32.280]  You know, so really the only way you're going to get anyone to believe you that they have holes in their systems, the only way that anyone will be safe is if you go ahead and take it into your own hands and do the job, you know?
[50:32.800 --> 50:37.840]  So I don't understand, you know, you're kind of almost contradicting yourself.
[50:38.920 --> 50:40.800]  Basically, what you're saying is...
[50:42.460 --> 50:52.980]  Basically, if I'm correct, what you're saying is that it's, you know, you're proving a point to a company, you're abusing a company to find a hole with their system.
[50:53.120 --> 50:58.780]  I'm not saying that it's right that Microsoft blows off L0pht's problems, you know, blows off the problems of L0pht finds.
[50:59.320 --> 51:16.800]  What I'm saying is that, and I really don't care what goes on, but basically what I'm saying is, is that if you choose, if you take it upon yourself to prove to an individual company that they're using a Microsoft product which has problems with it, and you get into the company,
[51:16.800 --> 51:22.000]  and you commit a crime to prove it, I don't really give a damn what your attitude is.
[51:22.180 --> 51:24.020]  It's not my position to do it.
[51:24.360 --> 51:28.740]  Basically, if the company decides to prosecute you criminally, they can.
[51:29.180 --> 51:30.320]  That's their position.
[51:30.520 --> 51:31.500]  That's all I'm saying.
[51:31.760 --> 51:33.260]  I'm not saying it's right or wrong.
[51:33.400 --> 51:39.280]  I'm saying, if you decide to choose to do that, you're committing a crime and expect to go repercussions.
[51:39.460 --> 51:41.920]  And don't say, poor me, I couldn't expect this.
[51:41.920 --> 51:44.760]  It's like, no, you know they're going to come after you in spades.
[51:45.820 --> 51:49.940]  Yeah, see, but you're referring to people like us as, you know, a pain in the ass to you.
[51:51.100 --> 52:06.500]  And, you know, really, you're just assuming that every corporation that has a network or has any type of need for security is going to hire people like you and spend the money for it, and they'll just assume that they have holes, you know?
[52:06.500 --> 52:08.060]  Oh, no, I'm not assuming that.
[52:08.140 --> 52:09.260]  I know most of them don't.
[52:09.360 --> 52:16.400]  I go into companies, I find millions of holes, I walk out there, tell them how to fix it, and I can guarantee you there's still millions of holes a year later.
[52:16.780 --> 52:18.320]  I know that's not the case.
[52:18.500 --> 52:31.520]  What I'm basically saying is that if you go ahead and hack a computer system to prove that there is a problem to the company, you're committing a crime and expect the repercussions from that.
[52:31.680 --> 52:33.240]  I'm not saying it's right or wrong.
[52:33.400 --> 52:34.960]  I'm not saying companies are smart.
[52:34.960 --> 52:39.780]  But the problem is when hackers break in, and I always... this is the point I'll always come back to.
[52:39.980 --> 52:45.300]  When hackers break into a computer system, if you want to do good, let the system administrator know.
[52:45.520 --> 52:51.340]  The problem is hackers that are out there breaking into the computers, they don't want to do the right thing and let the sysadmins know.
[52:51.420 --> 52:55.140]  Maybe about two or three people I've actually heard have actually done that.
[52:55.340 --> 53:02.400]  Most of them decide that the place to post the information is on some bulletin board or some website to prove they're elite.
[53:02.400 --> 53:10.360]  They're more interested in proving they're elite than doing what you are saying is the noble thing, which could be the noble thing, to prove there is problems and help the company fix it.
[53:11.180 --> 53:11.480]  Sorry.
[53:13.040 --> 53:13.760]  Thank you.
[53:15.600 --> 53:26.920]  Yeah, Ira, I wonder if you could give an idea how quickly your industry is growing of, let's say, the hounds that are smelling out people.
[53:26.920 --> 53:31.500]  Because a lot of people don't understand how quickly they're being found.
[53:32.000 --> 53:34.020]  Yeah, let me say this.
[53:34.120 --> 53:37.040]  There are a lot of companies that have a bunch of really good system administrators.
[53:37.980 --> 53:42.120]  Again, if you go to the LISA conference, there's thousands of people going there.
[53:42.300 --> 53:45.320]  These are people that are actually learning how to do things right.
[53:45.320 --> 53:47.080]  And that's just internally.
[53:47.700 --> 53:57.000]  As far as business goes, incident response businesses, you have companies like IBM, SAIC, and a bunch of other consulting companies are doing incident response.
[53:57.380 --> 54:01.560]  You got the Wheel Group, which is out there putting detection systems there.
[54:01.960 --> 54:03.520]  And again, people are getting better.
[54:03.620 --> 54:09.800]  Like I gave the example before, the kid's mother, even better than the kid, was sent a bill for $4,000.
[54:10.200 --> 54:13.200]  There are a lot more hackers in jail than you do know about.
[54:13.580 --> 54:15.340]  Every time, like, for example, Inc.
[54:15.600 --> 54:17.080]  Magazine excerpted my book.
[54:17.500 --> 54:23.780]  I got three letters from people in prison saying, oh, I'd love to work for you.
[54:24.500 --> 54:26.060]  You know, again, that's just the thing.
[54:26.200 --> 54:28.660]  Oh, I'm one of the better hackers you will ever find.
[54:28.840 --> 54:31.600]  It's hard to find a social engineer better than me.
[54:31.780 --> 54:34.100]  You know, being the hacker, I'm like, well, you should have read my book.
[54:34.240 --> 54:37.320]  But anyway, that's, you know, there are a lot of people in jail.
[54:37.320 --> 54:39.620]  It's not going to be a shrinking phenomenon.
[54:39.940 --> 54:46.360]  The FBI Computers Crime Squad is supposed to grow to 75 agents just at the central location.
[54:46.660 --> 54:49.540]  When right now there used to be, I think it was 15.
[54:49.980 --> 54:52.060]  So it's growing by over five times.
[54:52.180 --> 54:53.940]  And they are getting better trained.
[54:54.260 --> 54:56.720]  I know, they want me to help them train them, but that's a separate issue.
[54:57.200 --> 54:57.660]  Sorry, next.
[54:57.920 --> 54:58.320]  It's okay.
[54:59.460 --> 55:00.940]  Getting back to your circles.
[55:02.500 --> 55:05.800]  Where do you think the people in the inner circle started, circle-wise?
[55:05.800 --> 55:09.460]  Do you think that they started in the outer, grew up, moved up, moved up?
[55:09.960 --> 55:10.240]  No.
[55:10.240 --> 55:12.000]  And if so, I guess there's hope for the yentas?
[55:12.640 --> 55:16.280]  No, there is hope for the yentas if they do decide they don't want to be yentas.
[55:16.620 --> 55:19.260]  The problem is they're not interested in going out there and learning.
[55:19.600 --> 55:21.740]  There are books out there, damn good books.
[55:21.740 --> 55:28.180]  When the people started, they had to go into almost elite status because in the 1980s there were no computers.
[55:28.320 --> 55:29.420]  Computers were expensive.
[55:29.880 --> 55:31.640]  These days you can buy a used computer.
[55:31.760 --> 55:33.580]  It's like, oh God, I don't want to buy a 486.
[55:33.840 --> 55:38.240]  But yes, you can buy a 486 for $200 and run Linux on it.
[55:38.240 --> 55:45.700]  And again, the people originally, like the L0pht, they started out wanting to learn about computers and they might have had to break in to learn.
[55:45.840 --> 55:47.580]  But that's a separate issue right now.
[55:47.720 --> 55:51.740]  You think that some of the people in the inner circle actually started on the outer and then moved in?
[55:51.740 --> 55:52.740]  I mean, it seems like...
[55:52.740 --> 55:54.980]  Yes, I mean, everybody has to start on the outer.
[55:55.320 --> 55:56.360]  I mean, I put down...
[55:56.360 --> 55:58.240]  And it's based on your intentions whether you move in or not.
[55:58.420 --> 55:59.520]  It's based on intentions.
[55:59.520 --> 56:04.780]  If you want to learn about computers, you will get into the inner circle just because you want to persevere.
[56:05.380 --> 56:10.400]  And again, you have to want to persevere in learning about computers, not learning about other people's business.
[56:10.620 --> 56:10.780]  Yeah.
[56:11.860 --> 56:17.980]  You said earlier that the problem you have when people break into a system is when they start committing crimes in the system.
[56:17.980 --> 56:18.640]  Uh huh.
[56:18.700 --> 56:21.300]  But now isn't technically just breaking into the computer a crime?
[56:21.940 --> 56:22.360]  Yes.
[56:22.560 --> 56:29.440]  Let me say... So then how are we supposed to inform anyone if just by breaking into the system we're already a criminal?
[56:29.760 --> 56:35.060]  And then by letting the people know... See, I'm all for letting the system administrator know when you break into a system.
[56:35.400 --> 56:36.000]  That's good.
[56:36.240 --> 56:37.360]  Because that's what you should do.
[56:37.720 --> 56:37.860]  Right.
[56:37.940 --> 56:39.180]  Otherwise nothing gets solved.
[56:39.260 --> 56:40.080]  Let me put it this way.
[56:40.160 --> 56:45.160]  I've never heard of anybody going to jail by letting a sysadmin know that they have a problem.
[56:45.340 --> 56:55.620]  And if you just email root at system, or sysadmin, or like postmaster, or whatever, the only person that knows that they have a hole at that point is the admin.
[56:56.080 --> 57:00.080]  And if they're stupid enough to let someone... Oh yeah, by the way, I left our computer system wide open.
[57:00.700 --> 57:02.040]  Nobody is going to be that dumb.
[57:02.420 --> 57:06.620]  And they're going to... Nobody will prosecute you because you're just telling them they have a problem.
[57:06.860 --> 57:11.120]  They have to actually prove that you were there in order to prosecute you or do anything.
[57:11.660 --> 57:14.580]  But isn't just the email that you sent them proof that you were there?
[57:14.860 --> 57:15.000]  No.
[57:15.000 --> 57:16.340]  Aren't you just admitting to them right there?
[57:16.520 --> 57:16.820]  No.
[57:16.940 --> 57:17.900]  You could be totally wrong.
[57:17.980 --> 57:20.560]  You could have just had a whim and goofed on the administrator.
[57:21.380 --> 57:22.560]  Okay, because I've seen this a lot.
[57:22.940 --> 57:23.600]  I've seen this a lot.
[57:23.800 --> 57:25.660]  I've seen this a lot where people send messages to the administrators.
[57:26.020 --> 57:30.860]  And now that they go to jail, but they get in trouble, you know, visits from the police where they have to go down and have to settle things.
[57:31.000 --> 57:36.860]  Did you ever hear anon at finet.pen or anon at penet.fi?
[57:37.680 --> 57:38.940]  That's a good way of doing it.
[57:39.820 --> 57:40.200]  All right.
[57:40.260 --> 57:40.960]  Well, thanks a lot there.
[57:41.120 --> 57:41.340]  What?
[57:42.220 --> 57:43.660]  I thought they opened back up.
[57:44.620 --> 57:45.900]  There's three dozen other anonymous emailers.
[57:45.900 --> 57:49.100]  Yeah, they closed and the database was turned over to the Justice Department.
[57:49.240 --> 57:51.400]  Okay, I thought that... So use Hotmail.
[57:51.580 --> 57:52.180]  So use...
[57:52.180 --> 57:55.140]  Use... I mean, there's dozens of anonymous emailers.
[57:56.800 --> 57:57.560]  Yeah, hey, man.
[57:57.660 --> 57:59.600]  It's just kind of more of a statement.
[57:59.860 --> 58:03.360]  I really liked your speech and seeing the angle that you've taken.
[58:03.560 --> 58:06.280]  It's kind of like, you know, it puts a lot of people in their place.
[58:06.280 --> 58:16.740]  But to me, it just seems that you need to take a little bit more of a viewpoint between, you know, your godliness and you know how to work the stuff and the average Yens that doesn't know how to program his VCR.
[58:17.040 --> 58:21.120]  Maybe that there's another medium there for a hacker to exist in between those two points.
[58:22.080 --> 58:32.500]  You know, I probably scored like very low in your test, but it seems that a hacker can exist and those two, I mean, just in between those two points.
[58:32.660 --> 58:42.360]  No, a hacker can exist these days because you can go ahead and take college courses, you can go ahead and get a bunch of, you know, you can go ahead and read books, load your own computer with Linux.
[58:42.360 --> 58:52.020]  You can go ahead, buy, get with friends, network the computers together, practice finding problems like the better people are doing right out there today.
[58:52.460 --> 58:57.420]  They're going out there today and practicing hacking into each other's computer systems on their laptops.
[58:57.760 --> 58:57.900]  Right.
[58:58.060 --> 59:04.760]  Because, you know, like I said out there, it's like, you know, the people doing the password sniffing, you know, they're going ahead on a network where it's okay.
[59:04.980 --> 59:06.540]  And you can set up your own networks.
[59:06.640 --> 59:11.060]  I know hackers who have said, you know, I've been arrested, I don't want to deal with this.
[59:11.060 --> 59:13.060]  And they go out and set up their networks in the basement.
[59:13.240 --> 59:15.000]  Yeah, but hacking doesn't have to be on UNIX.
[59:15.160 --> 59:17.940]  I mean, you know, it doesn't.
[59:18.020 --> 59:22.160]  It just, I mean, you're probably really, really good at doing that.
[59:22.260 --> 59:23.260]  I mean, really, really good.
[59:23.580 --> 59:26.540]  And, I don't know, you can kind of consider yourself a hacker.
[59:26.540 --> 59:31.600]  Well, there's also other things, again, if you want to learn about computers, you can take up graphics programming, you can develop your own games.
[59:31.800 --> 59:34.360]  Why bother paying $50 for somebody else's game?
[59:34.640 --> 59:35.640]  I'm not saying it's easy.
[59:35.880 --> 59:36.600]  That's the problem.
[59:36.760 --> 59:39.160]  It's really easy to just want to be a digital yenta.
[59:39.160 --> 59:49.660]  The hard part is getting your own initiative there to want to learn about computers and take the effort to read books, to go through installation manuals, to get open BSD, load it on the system.
[59:49.800 --> 59:49.940]  Sorry.
[59:50.180 --> 59:50.440]  Okay.
[59:50.600 --> 59:51.020]  Thanks, man.
[59:55.540 --> 01:00:05.360]  As someone who's built a lab in his home and written books and built up a consulting practice, you are right fucking on.
[01:00:05.700 --> 01:00:06.300]  Oh, thank you.
[01:00:11.780 --> 01:00:24.000]  I want to encourage everyone to get some computers, get some Ethernet cards, stick it in your laundry room, and load it up, and look at it.
[01:00:24.760 --> 01:00:35.660]  The time that I started learning operating systems was when I could think up a question at night and then go downstairs in the middle of the night and try it out, and then go back to bed.
[01:00:35.660 --> 01:00:37.400]  But this is the way you will learn.
[01:00:37.700 --> 01:00:39.040]  And that's what he's talking about.
[01:00:39.320 --> 01:00:40.560]  So buy some cheap computers.
[01:00:41.620 --> 01:00:42.940]  It doesn't have to be Linux.
[01:00:43.100 --> 01:00:44.100]  It doesn't have to be UNIX.
[01:00:44.540 --> 01:00:47.580]  You can make a lot of bread consulting on NT problems.
[01:00:48.800 --> 01:00:51.040]  And is anyone from the L0pht here?
[01:00:53.140 --> 01:00:54.900]  Actually, Hobbit just walked in.
[01:00:55.220 --> 01:00:58.220]  I know, but you're better than them.
[01:00:58.700 --> 01:00:58.840]  Okay.
[01:00:59.060 --> 01:00:59.380]  Okay.
[01:01:00.620 --> 01:01:01.220]  Question.
[01:01:01.840 --> 01:01:15.500]  When you're looking at, shall we say, inefficiencies in Microsoft products, do you do it on corporate networks, or do you do it on your own network?
[01:01:23.760 --> 01:01:27.560]  No one can prosecute you for breaking into your own network.
[01:01:27.740 --> 01:01:28.580]  That's what I'm trying to say.
[01:01:29.220 --> 01:01:29.320]  Yeah.
[01:01:29.860 --> 01:01:30.260]  Thank you.
[01:01:32.000 --> 01:01:35.340]  And he's with 2600 Magazine in some way, shape, or form.
[01:01:35.500 --> 01:01:35.660]  Yay.
[01:01:36.320 --> 01:01:37.580]  Oh, never mind.
[01:01:38.840 --> 01:01:40.080]  Just a volunteer.
[01:01:41.300 --> 01:01:45.140]  I understand your analogy very well about your whole inner circle thing.
[01:01:45.140 --> 01:01:51.440]  I'm just curious because I'm in an apartment where we have a computer science department, and we also have a network department.
[01:01:51.660 --> 01:01:55.720]  And there's a constant war going on because the administrators are so lax about what goes on.
[01:01:55.920 --> 01:02:00.340]  I'm just curious how you would rate, or what's your opinion in the opposite direction?
[01:02:00.720 --> 01:02:05.700]  How would you rate administrators, not just the people who are trying to go against or penetrate or do what not?
[01:02:06.020 --> 01:02:12.160]  What is your opinion on the administrators who make it easier for these people to get in using tools or packages?
[01:02:12.160 --> 01:02:14.180]  Okay, let me talk about this.
[01:02:14.280 --> 01:02:17.060]  I think most people will appreciate this position, actually.
[01:02:17.360 --> 01:02:24.040]  I think most administrators are under-trained and overworked.
[01:02:24.120 --> 01:02:25.940]  Also underpaid, as a matter of fact.
[01:02:26.140 --> 01:02:33.200]  A lot of companies these days, they want to reap the benefits of automating their entire company.
[01:02:33.200 --> 01:02:38.860]  But it's sort of like, well, I can understand buying a computer system, but I have to hire a new person?
[01:02:39.160 --> 01:02:41.600]  Or I have to send that person to a class?
[01:02:41.900 --> 01:02:45.540]  Like, well, that person administered Windows 3.1 for workgroups.
[01:02:45.840 --> 01:02:47.640]  Oh, Windows NT, big deal.
[01:02:47.780 --> 01:02:49.320]  That must be the same thing, isn't it?
[01:02:49.520 --> 01:02:50.920]  You know, just the next generation.
[01:02:51.240 --> 01:02:55.140]  What happens is, most administrators are well-meaning.
[01:02:55.420 --> 01:02:58.120]  The problem is, well, actually I'll relate this story.
[01:02:58.120 --> 01:03:01.200]  I was talking to Scott Charney, whom some of you probably hate.
[01:03:01.400 --> 01:03:05.660]  He's the person in charge of the Department of Justice Computer Crime Unit.
[01:03:05.780 --> 01:03:10.460]  He's responsible for prosecuting federal crimes dealing with computer laws.
[01:03:10.580 --> 01:03:12.700]  And he told me it scared him.
[01:03:12.780 --> 01:03:15.740]  When he first learned about computers, they took a class in Baltimore.
[01:03:16.060 --> 01:03:19.540]  And he was sitting around, having the teacher introduce everybody.
[01:03:19.540 --> 01:03:20.800]  And it's like, oh, yeah.
[01:03:20.900 --> 01:03:23.460]  And he's like, this one woman struck him.
[01:03:23.640 --> 01:03:24.460]  She's like, oh, yeah.
[01:03:24.520 --> 01:03:25.380]  Hi, my name's Sue.
[01:03:26.140 --> 01:03:28.800]  I'm the new administrator for my company.
[01:03:28.940 --> 01:03:36.060]  And I was made the administrator because, well, we ended up, I was the person with the most computer aptitude.
[01:03:36.180 --> 01:03:37.300]  So I'm now the administrator.
[01:03:37.440 --> 01:03:39.260]  So I'm here to learn about UNIX or whatever.
[01:03:39.740 --> 01:03:41.220]  And that's who they put in.
[01:03:41.400 --> 01:03:43.540]  They didn't put in somebody with a good degree.
[01:03:43.680 --> 01:03:45.580]  They didn't put in somebody who should be well-paid.
[01:03:45.580 --> 01:03:47.760]  And the companies are suffering for that.
[01:03:47.920 --> 01:03:52.660]  I'm not saying the companies are free of blame, but I'm saying it's still a crime.
[01:03:53.020 --> 01:03:53.320]  That's all.
[01:03:53.620 --> 01:03:59.240]  But, again, companies are definitely not free of blame if they don't want to put the effort into training their people.
[01:03:59.420 --> 01:04:00.760]  But, again, it is getting better.
[01:04:00.920 --> 01:04:01.780]  There are better people.
[01:04:02.060 --> 01:04:02.300]  Thanks.
[01:04:02.720 --> 01:04:10.420]  I should just say that our new administrator came in with a degree in forestry and knew how to use about three commands in DOS.
[01:04:10.420 --> 01:04:12.080]  So I guess it kind of shows.
[01:04:12.360 --> 01:04:15.560]  Yeah, well, again, I don't want to say one degree is better than another.
[01:04:15.760 --> 01:04:17.880]  Most of the better assistant admins don't have degrees.
[01:04:18.040 --> 01:04:19.740]  And I'm also a psychology major.
[01:04:19.920 --> 01:04:21.100]  So, anyway, I'm sorry.
[01:04:21.300 --> 01:04:21.460]  Next.
[01:04:21.780 --> 01:04:23.120]  Yeah, thanks for your talk.
[01:04:23.320 --> 01:04:37.280]  I definitely agree with the gist of what you're saying, which seems to be that for hacking to take place today, you don't need to break into anybody's computer.
[01:04:37.440 --> 01:04:38.540]  You can do it by yourself.
[01:04:38.760 --> 01:04:43.780]  You can do it in your own bedroom, in the privacy of your own home, just like all sorts of other things that you can do at home.
[01:04:43.940 --> 01:04:45.460]  That's nobody else's business.
[01:04:46.740 --> 01:04:48.140]  And... Excuse me.
[01:04:48.360 --> 01:05:02.600]  And I also agree that, for the most part, the real difference between the people that are here today and the people that are committing the true crimes that you enjoy prosecuting, the crimes... I mean, I don't know.
[01:05:02.780 --> 01:05:12.140]  There may be people here who are here to find out about how to do corporate espionage, or how to find out about how to smuggle secrets out of this country or into another country or whatever.
[01:05:12.420 --> 01:05:12.660]  Mm-hmm.
[01:05:12.660 --> 01:05:26.760]  But it seems to me that, you know, the most of the people here, and I started using computers as a teenager, and it seems to be that most of the people here, you know, younger people, people who are older, all have an interest in informational technology,
[01:05:27.040 --> 01:05:28.720]  not in criminal technology.
[01:05:28.980 --> 01:05:46.800]  And I really, like, your talk differentiating the two was very informative, but your attitude towards calling people like digital wannabes or digital yentas who are here, you know, that's definitely sort of more... should be more sort of directed towards the people who want to do crimes,
[01:05:46.840 --> 01:05:48.980]  but don't have any idea of how to do it.
[01:05:49.980 --> 01:05:51.660]  Yeah, let me say...
[01:05:54.440 --> 01:05:56.680]  Yeah, because nobody likes to be called names.
[01:05:57.400 --> 01:05:59.440]  Let me give you my attitude on that.
[01:06:00.220 --> 01:06:03.780]  Because, you know, I'm sitting here trying to explain to people, no, this is wrong, you know.
[01:06:04.120 --> 01:06:09.840]  And really, it's sort of, you know, I hear people getting up here and saying, oh, you know, oh, you're the best and the brightest.
[01:06:10.000 --> 01:06:12.220]  You're the information warriors of the future.
[01:06:12.340 --> 01:06:13.240]  You're this, you're that.
[01:06:13.660 --> 01:06:17.480]  When really, I mean, I got to admit, you know, I've tried it both ways.
[01:06:17.620 --> 01:06:19.020]  I've sat down, talked to people.
[01:06:19.240 --> 01:06:22.960]  I've tried talking to them nicely, and I get, oh, no, we just want to learn about information.
[01:06:23.200 --> 01:06:24.340]  We just want to do this.
[01:06:24.460 --> 01:06:32.680]  And my differentiation is, if you are a person who just wants to learn, you know, read other people's email, I really have no respect for you.
[01:06:32.880 --> 01:06:44.020]  If you are a person that wants to learn about computers, and in all honesty, many of you do, who do fit into the clueless category according to my test, my test was meant to be in a funny way.
[01:06:44.160 --> 01:06:50.180]  Maybe it's a little harsher for some people than they wanted to take, but my test was meant in a funny way to give you a direction to go.
[01:06:50.560 --> 01:06:57.780]  In other words, learning Linux, going ahead and taking the next step after Linux to protect the system, then going ahead and protecting the network.
[01:06:58.060 --> 01:07:00.040]  Yeah, again, it's in your face type of stuff.
[01:07:00.280 --> 01:07:06.320]  I guess that's what the site called it, but honestly, it's, that's just my style.
[01:07:06.320 --> 01:07:12.740]  And I have to apologize if you were offended and fit into the, you know, fit into the want to learn category.
[01:07:12.820 --> 01:07:15.080]  But if you're a digital yenta, I make no apologies.
[01:07:15.460 --> 01:07:16.060]  How's that?
[01:07:16.900 --> 01:07:17.580]  Thank you.
[01:07:20.300 --> 01:07:21.120]  How you doing?
[01:07:21.580 --> 01:07:27.280]  Anyway, I listened to your whole speech, and I got mixed reviews both ways, whichever way you want to take it.
[01:07:27.500 --> 01:07:41.920]  Me personally being running around in the hack game since the late 1980s, I can understand where we first started, we had to do little of the things that you think are stupid or what hackers shouldn't do, as in you call crime.
[01:07:42.240 --> 01:07:45.220]  I mean, this day and age, a lot of hackers don't need to do that.
[01:07:45.360 --> 01:07:51.860]  And me personally, yes, I did my time, got in trouble with the feds, spent time in Lewisburg prison camp and so forth and so on.
[01:07:52.200 --> 01:08:01.360]  This day and age, maybe the new one, new hackers, wannabe hackers, or whatever you like to call them, the yentas or whatever, they don't have to go through that.
[01:08:01.940 --> 01:08:11.080]  In the time when I started the computer scene, it was something that was needed to get the information that we needed, besides the little trash and all that other stuff we had to do.
[01:08:11.420 --> 01:08:11.780]  Yeah.
[01:08:12.340 --> 01:08:13.140]  Oh, no, I agree.
[01:08:13.380 --> 01:08:24.460]  Like, again, the position is, and again, I've talked to other people besides of, you know, I've talked, let me put it this way, I have a lot of good friends that fit in, that people would know of.
[01:08:25.120 --> 01:08:28.340]  And, you know, I'm talking about on the inner hacker circle that are well respected.
[01:08:29.040 --> 01:08:35.820]  And again, these are people that I admit, if they wanted to learn about computers in those days, there was no such thing as documentation.
[01:08:36.760 --> 01:08:46.540]  You know, LA, up until, I mean, in all honesty, up until the 1992-3 timeframe, you know, computers weren't widely available, there was no such thing about the internet.
[01:08:46.800 --> 01:08:58.480]  And I'm not condoning this in any way, but if you did want to connect with computers worldwide and learn, you know, and learn about other computer systems, you did have to do some level of hacking or phone-freaking to get that access.
[01:08:59.280 --> 01:09:04.300]  And the thing is, again, like I said up front, the intentions of these people were purely honorable.
[01:09:04.680 --> 01:09:19.720]  The problem I'm having, though, is lately, the intentions of the newer people getting in there, the clueless teenagers as, quote, again, I believe the comment came from Rout, you know, the people that fit into the clueless teenager category are not out there to learn about computers.
[01:09:19.960 --> 01:09:33.260]  And what I'm trying to do in this thing, again, my purpose of my presentation was to help differentiate who's a clueless teenager and try to get them, if they really do want to be a real hacker, according to the real hackers, or who they consider the real hackers,
[01:09:33.780 --> 01:09:35.520]  then I try to point them in a direction.
[01:09:35.840 --> 01:09:39.180]  I mean, again, like you're saying, I hope I clarify that up front.
[01:09:39.380 --> 01:09:40.400]  But I'm babbling now.
[01:09:40.600 --> 01:09:40.740]  Sorry.
[01:09:40.840 --> 01:09:53.380]  But also, at the same time, I've seen quite a few hackers, I mean, I've seen them at the wannabe hackers or new hackers on the way, that you said, oh, one, two or three of them would tell the system admin what's going on.
[01:09:53.500 --> 01:10:01.380]  I know personally about more than a dozen hackers that I've met that showed me their little loops that they go through different systems.
[01:10:01.380 --> 01:10:05.200]  And they have notified the system admin.
[01:10:05.400 --> 01:10:14.040]  And at the same time, after they notified the system admin, two months later, they said, of course, they'll put the exploit up on a website or a BBS.
[01:10:14.360 --> 01:10:21.800]  They did give the admin significant time that I think is fair enough to let everybody know what the exploit of the whole is.
[01:10:21.940 --> 01:10:23.120]  Oh, no, I appreciate that.
[01:10:23.280 --> 01:10:33.680]  And again, the, my reaction to that is, if you're really posting that information on a bulletin board, the only purpose of posting the information on the bulletin board is to let other people know you did it.
[01:10:33.900 --> 01:10:39.440]  I mean, I know there's some, like, hacker ethic, which says, oh, no, share your information, give them the opportunity.
[01:10:39.720 --> 01:10:45.120]  I wish more hackers would do that, you know, give them the opportunity to fix the system before they post it.
[01:10:45.260 --> 01:10:51.760]  I know the L0pht is intelligent about how they release vulnerabilities, you know, so there's a chance to fix it first.
[01:10:52.380 --> 01:10:57.020]  You know, again, my personal opinion is, if you're good, you're not out there to prove anything to people.
[01:10:57.020 --> 01:11:05.740]  If you broke in, you're good, you should be content enough with yourself, because otherwise, in all honesty, if you let people know, you're just advertising the fact you did commit a crime.
[01:11:06.920 --> 01:11:08.860]  I'm sorry, could I, can we go on to another question?
[01:11:08.980 --> 01:11:13.760]  It's not that I don't respect your opinion, but there are other people, and I don't want to be rude to the people following me.
[01:11:14.340 --> 01:11:20.100]  What would you say to phone freaks, people that don't have a phone system in their bedroom to go and play around with?
[01:11:20.280 --> 01:11:24.020]  I mean, that's back in the 1980s for just generic computer hackers.
[01:11:24.020 --> 01:11:28.400]  Yeah, as far, my, I don't really, like, you know, my, these are just my opinions.
[01:11:28.420 --> 01:11:43.340]  And as far as phone freaking goes, um, that's, to me, is a really dangerous thing, because the people that tend to do phone freaking, the people that have tend to do, tended to do it, it's just too easy for them to start getting into listening to friends,
[01:11:43.580 --> 01:11:46.720]  family, and people they don't like, and tapping their phones.
[01:11:46.980 --> 01:11:52.200]  And again, there's, you know, in my opinion, if you want to hack something to learn about it, that's one thing.
[01:11:52.380 --> 01:11:57.540]  But when you want to hack, when you want to hack and start listening and invading people's privacy, that's another.
[01:11:59.780 --> 01:12:03.380]  It's still, if they want to learn, it's really difficult.
[01:12:05.060 --> 01:12:17.360]  Oh, no, I'm not, and again, if you're talking about really wanting to get in trouble, and really wanting to do crimes and time and all that sort of stuff, going after the phone system is a way to get, like, elevated to, like, the 10 most wanted list thing.
[01:12:18.300 --> 01:12:24.000]  I'm not, again, that's... I'd just like to make a comment.
[01:12:25.680 --> 01:12:30.220]  You, I came here, and I got a negative three on your test, by the way.
[01:12:30.400 --> 01:12:30.680]  Okay.
[01:12:31.620 --> 01:12:36.380]  I'd like to say that I know that I know nothing.
[01:12:37.140 --> 01:12:38.840]  I know that I know nothing.
[01:12:38.980 --> 01:12:40.620]  And I knew that before I came here.
[01:12:40.900 --> 01:12:41.280]  Uh-huh.
[01:12:41.840 --> 01:12:45.060]  You haven't told me where to learn anything.
[01:12:45.680 --> 01:12:48.340]  You say, you say there are books out there.
[01:12:48.700 --> 01:12:49.520]  Where are they?
[01:12:49.920 --> 01:12:50.400]  Okay.
[01:12:50.640 --> 01:12:51.720]  I haven't seen them.
[01:12:52.320 --> 01:12:57.640]  If you could tell me this stuff, if you could tell me where I can go to learn, I would get better.
[01:12:57.640 --> 01:13:00.240]  Okay, let me start right now and answer your question.
[01:13:00.680 --> 01:13:03.720]  Okay, first of all, Practical UNIX and Internet Security.
[01:13:04.260 --> 01:13:04.760]  Good book.
[01:13:04.920 --> 01:13:05.980]  I know a lot of people hate it.
[01:13:06.220 --> 01:13:07.880]  Well, hate Spafford or whatever.
[01:13:08.100 --> 01:13:08.900]  Good book.
[01:13:08.900 --> 01:13:12.300]  Um, Bellevin and... Cheswick and Bellevin.
[01:13:12.580 --> 01:13:15.460]  Catching, Stalking the Wiley Hacker, Firewall-type book.
[01:13:15.640 --> 01:13:16.320]  Excellent book.
[01:13:16.560 --> 01:13:17.820]  Corporate Espionage, of course.
[01:13:17.920 --> 01:13:18.460]  Excellent book.
[01:13:19.100 --> 01:13:21.780]  Um, SIAC CERT web pages.
[01:13:21.980 --> 01:13:22.680]  Again, the basics.
[01:13:22.880 --> 01:13:23.560]  It's out there.
[01:13:23.920 --> 01:13:27.320]  You know, if you really want to learn about doing stuff, NT Security.
[01:13:27.700 --> 01:13:30.220]  The NT Security website and mailing list.
[01:13:30.380 --> 01:13:32.460]  Go to ISS.net.
[01:13:33.080 --> 01:13:36.540]  ISS.net is an excellent site with a lot of hot links.
[01:13:36.780 --> 01:13:40.140]  Some of the links are to mailing lists you should be subscribing to.
[01:13:40.380 --> 01:13:45.760]  They should also be to bulletin boards you should be reading and websites and things like that.
[01:13:45.880 --> 01:13:46.900]  ISS.net.
[01:13:47.160 --> 01:13:48.080]  You ask for the information.
[01:13:48.240 --> 01:13:48.960]  You're not writing it down.
[01:13:49.080 --> 01:13:49.680]  It troubles me.
[01:13:50.040 --> 01:13:50.780]  Anyway, what else?
[01:13:51.660 --> 01:13:52.100]  Cut.
[01:13:52.660 --> 01:13:53.100]  Sorry.
[01:13:53.240 --> 01:13:53.940]  Thank you very much.
[01:13:54.100 --> 01:13:54.680]  I've been cut out.
[01:13:55.300 --> 01:13:55.500]  Okay.
[01:13:55.800 --> 01:13:56.940]  Thank you very much.
[01:14:00.510 --> 01:14:02.030]  Uh, if you all stick around.
[01:14:02.270 --> 01:14:04.810]  We have, uh, GSM with, uh, fiber optic.
[01:14:05.030 --> 01:14:05.950]  He's going to be out in a couple minutes.
[01:14:06.350 --> 01:14:07.930]  Uh, stick around.
[01:14:08.350 --> 01:14:08.970]  Thank you.