[00:07.210 --> 00:09.670]  It's hard to have to make the mic grow.
[00:15.040 --> 00:16.340]  Well, there we go.
[00:17.300 --> 00:18.520]  It's kind of funny, actually.
[00:19.100 --> 00:27.140]  The way in the late 1960s, I was a volunteer at a radio station called WBAI, which I believe is still in existence.
[00:27.780 --> 00:31.560]  And they sent me on a... I was about maybe 16 or 17 years old.
[00:31.900 --> 00:37.920]  They sent me on a field assignment to do a report on something called phone phreaks, which occurred in the basement of some hotel.
[00:37.920 --> 00:43.280]  I'm not sure exactly where, but the big attraction was Abbie Hoffman showed up.
[00:43.980 --> 00:46.620]  And they had a very nice convention.
[00:46.620 --> 00:54.340]  There were a lot of Secret Service-type people hanging around, FBI-type people hanging around, and maybe about 40 or 50 people.
[00:56.000 --> 00:57.640]  And sort of fade out, fade in.
[00:57.720 --> 01:03.460]  In 1973, I went to NYU Film School and had to do a documentary film project.
[01:04.020 --> 01:05.520]  And we were trying to think of a subject.
[01:05.620 --> 01:12.280]  Me and my partner, Mark Andro, we were going to do a film on Scientology, and we decided that was going to be a little too dangerous at that point in time.
[01:12.280 --> 01:17.600]  So we decided that phone freaking, a film on phone freaking, was pretty innocuous.
[01:17.720 --> 01:28.480]  So we made this film called Ma Bell's Delinquent Children, and it won the Kodak Teenage Film Award, and several other awards, Movies on a Shoestring, and things like that.
[01:28.600 --> 01:37.640]  Anyhow, after we showed it, we showed it at the Museum of Modern Art, and I guess a couple thousand people, so it all totaled, it was sort of lost, or sitting in a closet, I guess is better put.
[01:38.200 --> 01:47.540]  And I found out about this conference last week, and I had mentioned that I had this film, and the person, Dave, who's here somewhere, had mentioned, well, you know, you should show it.
[01:47.880 --> 01:54.020]  I think, arguably, this is the oldest film about phone freaking, and it's, I think, fairly balanced.
[01:54.020 --> 01:57.820]  It shows a political point of view, business people, as well as the position of AT&T.
[01:58.040 --> 01:59.440]  Of course, this is before the breakup.
[02:00.320 --> 02:07.260]  So we'll be showing it, I guess, at 2.30 in the other room, which is in the main room all the way in the back, and it'll be here.
[02:08.260 --> 02:08.840]  See you then.
[02:27.730 --> 02:31.430]  Have you ever had every bit of information stored on you in a single card?
[02:31.910 --> 02:32.590]  You will!
[02:40.220 --> 02:42.140]  And that's the person that's going to get it for you.
[02:43.100 --> 02:45.900]  We're having a you will contest, in fact.
[02:46.440 --> 03:00.260]  If some of you have some clever sayings for things that have not yet been invented that companies want to take credit for, positive or negative, because, as we all know, technology can bring us some negative things as well, please submit them.
[03:00.380 --> 03:08.700]  We're going to have a little box out by the registration area, and we'll be giving away some amazing prizes on Sunday for the funniest ones.
[03:08.700 --> 03:10.420]  And we'll be judging that right here.
[03:10.760 --> 03:15.280]  So if you have a clever saying of a you will slogan, submit it.
[03:15.900 --> 03:23.040]  The other thing we've got going is a postcard campaign for fiber optic who's currently in prison in Pennsylvania.
[03:23.040 --> 03:24.800]  We'll have postcards lying around.
[03:24.920 --> 03:28.500]  You can write a message to them, and we'll mail it out to them at the end of the conference.
[03:30.660 --> 03:34.720]  Okay, we have articles on the MetroCard that we're passing around.
[03:34.980 --> 03:38.340]  We also have a few technical books up here.
[03:38.400 --> 03:39.360]  We only have four of them.
[03:40.040 --> 03:44.060]  So if people want to look at them, we ask that you pass them around and share them.
[03:44.800 --> 03:53.660]  What we have, we have some information on this MetroCard system, which has been introduced in New York City over the past couple of months.
[03:54.800 --> 04:03.260]  Basically, you walk up to a machine, and you slide this thing through, and it deducts the amount of money from the card when you use it.
[04:03.920 --> 04:11.700]  It's an interesting system because it's based on a lot of computers networked together, and we all know what can happen when you do something like that.
[04:12.240 --> 04:20.760]  There are possibly entry points in many different areas, and we're trying to find out exactly what is on these strips.
[04:20.760 --> 04:22.900]  Now, we tried a couple of weird experiments.
[04:23.140 --> 04:27.260]  We tried erasing the strip to see what would happen, to see how it would foul up the machine.
[04:27.660 --> 04:28.440]  And you know what happened?
[04:28.960 --> 04:29.740]  Absolutely nothing.
[04:29.920 --> 04:30.860]  It had no effect whatsoever.
[04:31.660 --> 04:38.900]  So, we're starting to wonder whether or not this is actually a magnetic strip, and whether it might not be a barcode hidden underneath what looks like a magnetic strip.
[04:40.320 --> 04:44.720]  All the intelligence, we believe, is inside the computer, not the card.
[04:44.840 --> 04:51.740]  The card carries a serial number, and a batch number, and an expiration date, which is pre-printed on the back.
[04:52.920 --> 05:10.300]  It's quite possible that is the only information in the strip or the barcode, and that when you swipe the card through, rather than writing information to the card, it's simply accessing a local computer and telling the display how much is actually credited to that particular account.
[05:12.000 --> 05:24.300]  We've got our hands on an employee card that says, no free access, but it's for free access, so I don't really know what they mean by that.
[05:26.620 --> 05:27.840]  Test purposes only.
[05:30.820 --> 05:41.500]  Basically, this one is expired, so we weren't able to use it at all, but when we swiped it through, it said this card is expired, and it told us the date and time of the last use of the card.
[05:42.000 --> 05:44.500]  Now, it's kind of interesting, you know, when you have a system like this.
[05:44.580 --> 05:47.400]  By the way, tokens will be abolished in 1997 in this city.
[05:47.800 --> 05:53.840]  This system is currently, in effect, in 69 stations, and I think we have something like, what, 500 stations in this city?
[05:54.940 --> 05:59.060]  So, by 1997, every single turnstile will be using this system.
[05:59.840 --> 06:05.440]  It's possible this could be used to find out where you entered the subway and when.
[06:06.600 --> 06:13.800]  Of course, it doesn't have your name on it, but if you say you were in a certain time in a certain place, there would be a way to verify it.
[06:13.920 --> 06:15.060]  There would be a way to track people.
[06:15.240 --> 06:16.460]  It's one step closer.
[06:17.300 --> 06:20.080]  So, there are dangers that are inherent in this system as well.
[06:21.120 --> 06:26.320]  We're open to any kind of experimentation that we can do in the next two days here at this conference.
[06:26.700 --> 06:28.800]  We'd love to duplicate one of these things.
[06:29.020 --> 06:30.200]  We'd love to see what would happen.
[06:30.340 --> 06:31.960]  There's a MetroCard station right across the street.
[06:32.420 --> 06:38.660]  If we were able to duplicate one and slide it through at the same time as another one, we want to see what the reaction is.
[06:38.740 --> 06:40.120]  And we want everybody in the city to know.
[06:40.600 --> 06:42.960]  So, that's kind of what we're here for today.
[06:44.660 --> 06:48.760]  We have a special guest who will answer questions.
[06:49.460 --> 06:54.080]  And the special guest happens to work for the transit authority.
[06:54.080 --> 06:55.280]  He programs these things.
[06:55.300 --> 06:57.040]  He makes these MetroCards.
[06:57.040 --> 07:05.700]  And the hacker spirit is so contagious that he has actually decided to risk everything and come down here and speak to you all.
[07:06.000 --> 07:11.680]  So, without further ado, our anonymous transit authority spokesperson.
[07:33.000 --> 07:33.720]  Hi.
[07:34.080 --> 07:37.020]  You may recognize me from Libya three years ago.
[07:42.700 --> 07:46.140]  Emmanuel gives me a little more credit when he used the word program.
[07:46.600 --> 07:51.920]  I am what is known as a railroad clerk, what the public would call a token seller.
[07:53.760 --> 07:56.640]  It's not a great job, but it pays the bills.
[07:57.960 --> 08:06.020]  As far as the MetroCard goes, we've got a little document that supposedly we printed up a couple hundred copies.
[08:06.160 --> 08:07.120]  I see a lot of them here.
[08:07.240 --> 08:07.640]  That's good.
[08:08.020 --> 08:13.360]  And we've got an addendum which will be available afterwards on a few other things that we've picked up.
[08:14.860 --> 08:29.280]  As far as we know, the MetroCard, in all internal documentation, both for railroad clerks, the friendly people in the token booths, and for technicians, states that the card is a magnetic stripe card.
[08:30.480 --> 08:36.040]  This could be disinformation, but somehow we really don't... at least I don't really think so.
[08:36.700 --> 08:38.600]  They wouldn't go to such great lengths.
[08:40.100 --> 08:43.280]  The MetroCard is essentially a credit card-sized card, but smaller.
[08:43.580 --> 08:45.020]  I don't know if people have seen it.
[08:45.120 --> 08:47.240]  I've got one in my pocket, which I'll hold up.
[08:48.980 --> 08:51.400]  It has a magnetic stripe on it.
[08:51.540 --> 08:52.720]  It's brightly colored.
[08:54.680 --> 09:01.260]  It does not, like systems in Washington DC and other places, have the value printed on it.
[09:04.060 --> 09:11.100]  Instead, you're expected to swipe this through the turnstile or a, quote, MetroCard reader in order to tell the value.
[09:11.460 --> 09:14.940]  The back of each card has three items printed on it.
[09:14.940 --> 09:25.140]  An expiration date, a six-digit batch number, which is the same for at least every 100 cards, and a 10-digit serial number.
[09:26.820 --> 09:34.060]  We also know, to some extent, what's on the magnetic stripe or possibly barcode.
[09:35.360 --> 09:41.680]  They are the same things that are physically printed on the back of the card, the expiration date, the batch number, the serial number.
[09:42.640 --> 09:43.920]  The type of card.
[09:44.300 --> 09:46.140]  Is it pre-encoded for $15?
[09:46.740 --> 09:47.900]  Is it non-pre-encoded?
[09:48.000 --> 09:50.540]  In other words, was it blank and did you get made up at the booth?
[09:50.900 --> 09:52.560]  Or is it an employee card?
[09:53.300 --> 09:59.440]  The current amount on the card, the date and time of last use and turnstile, and there's probably other information.
[09:59.860 --> 10:09.180]  As Emmanuel mentioned, if it's a barcode reader or even if it's a magnetic stripe, where all that's stored is a serial number, this stuff is not actually on the card.
[10:09.180 --> 10:23.860]  Instead, you're getting it after it goes through the turnstile, to the token booth computer, to an area computer, to the main computer, a transit authority's building at 130 Livingston Street in downtown Brooklyn.
[10:25.720 --> 10:30.800]  There are some arguments that it is magnetic stripe having to do with that.
[10:30.800 --> 10:42.040]  Namely, that turnstiles are supposed to take cards if they become linked only to the local token booth computer, and no higher up the hierarchy.
[10:42.500 --> 10:46.520]  A turnstile is supposed to take 3,000 fares at that point.
[10:46.760 --> 10:51.660]  This can be 3,000 tokens, 3,000 swipes of a card, or a combination thereof.
[10:51.840 --> 10:56.420]  That sort of speaks against information not being directly on the card.
[10:58.900 --> 11:02.200]  If there are any really deep questions at any point, ask.
[11:02.380 --> 11:04.560]  If there's any not-so-deep questions, save it.
[11:04.640 --> 11:05.660]  Man in purple with beard.
[11:06.080 --> 11:09.260]  You said that you weren't able to successfully
[11:12.550 --> 11:13.070]  experiment.
[11:14.890 --> 11:17.050]  Apparently, that's more Emmanuel's forte.
[11:17.070 --> 11:22.490]  What I've heard about that is they use the commercial tape-erase mechanism.
[11:23.310 --> 11:31.710]  The thing is that the high Norsted right is sufficiently strong to resist you for the walk eraser.
[11:31.930 --> 11:32.950]  That was my thought, yeah.
[11:33.230 --> 11:43.250]  You know, the other possibility is you're not looking at standard magnetic, but rather optomagnetic, where it's actually written using a small IR laser.
[11:44.690 --> 11:47.370]  There's no evidence for it being a laser.
[11:47.670 --> 11:48.810]  It's not impossible.
[11:49.530 --> 11:50.470]  You have to observe that.
[11:50.470 --> 11:54.670]  Yeah, I mean, when I encode a card, I'm six inches away from it.
[11:54.870 --> 11:57.610]  There's no advice as to protecting your eyes.
[11:58.150 --> 12:02.150]  There's been no visible... well, infrared, you wouldn't really show up.
[12:02.350 --> 12:08.450]  There's no real heat emitted from the swipe and code area of the Togamuth computer.
[12:10.390 --> 12:12.310]  As I said, it's not impossible.
[12:12.310 --> 12:13.550]  It just seems unlikely.
[12:14.490 --> 12:20.590]  Yeah, you said that when your card goes through it, it goes through this great network of computers.
[12:21.190 --> 12:24.370]  When I swipe my card through, it's almost instantaneous.
[12:24.650 --> 12:28.030]  Right, that's why it speaks against that happening.
[12:28.030 --> 12:33.890]  Yeah, and I mean, I don't think even on Ethernet or 10-base-T like we have here, that's possible.
[12:34.070 --> 12:34.510]  Exactly.
[12:34.850 --> 12:36.850]  Well, the theoretical...
[12:36.850 --> 12:37.370]  Question, please.
[12:37.710 --> 12:48.190]  Yeah, it was, when I swipe my card through the turnstile, I do not believe it's going through several computer networks in different locations, because the verify time is almost instantaneous.
[12:48.670 --> 12:51.690]  And even on Ethernet, 10-base-T, that is not possible.
[12:52.350 --> 12:57.870]  Yeah, that speaks against it going all the way up the hierarchy before...
[12:57.870 --> 13:08.990]  On the other hand, if you're only talking to a local computer system that is constantly updating with the network, it could be done instantly.
[13:09.150 --> 13:10.730]  And that's what I think is happening.
[13:10.850 --> 13:18.590]  I think it's accessing a system that's inside the station and checking that and seeing what particular bit of data is on the card.
[13:19.310 --> 13:25.570]  And that is updated maybe once every five minutes, once every 10 minutes.
[13:25.610 --> 13:26.070]  We don't know.
[13:26.410 --> 13:31.950]  What we need to try is to duplicate two cards and try them on two separate stations at the same exact moment and see what happens.
[13:32.610 --> 13:33.710]  That will tell us something.
[13:34.170 --> 13:36.690]  I'll lay off questions for a couple more minutes and continue.
[13:36.850 --> 13:38.370]  Every few minutes, I'll opt for questions.
[13:38.610 --> 13:38.650]  Okay?
[13:38.910 --> 13:40.230]  Use the microphone over there to ask questions.
[13:41.890 --> 13:44.750]  There are numerous glitches in the software.
[13:44.870 --> 13:51.330]  The software, and to some extent, the hardware is provided by Cubic Corporation, which I believe is from California.
[13:51.690 --> 14:00.550]  There's also some serious anecdotal evidence that some of the writing, the C programming, C language programming, was done by IBM.
[14:05.210 --> 14:09.930]  Among the glitches, supposedly there's multi-card trade-in.
[14:10.070 --> 14:16.070]  If you've got several cards, you forgot one one day, bought another one, you're supposed to be able to take the value and put it on one card.
[14:16.270 --> 14:17.210]  It won't happen.
[14:17.430 --> 14:19.190]  Don't even let the clerk try it.
[14:19.790 --> 14:21.590]  Either you or they will lose money.
[14:22.430 --> 14:24.450]  TA never loses money, I'd like to point out.
[14:24.530 --> 14:28.730]  If you walk away from a token booth with too much money, TA isn't going to put up that money.
[14:28.830 --> 14:30.030]  That poor guy in the booth is.
[14:30.030 --> 14:30.050]  TA never loses.
[14:33.370 --> 14:41.490]  There's also some evidence that analysis, a recording of transactions at the booth is not done the way it should be.
[14:42.490 --> 14:51.110]  Someone I know had a problem with a passenger who alleged that their card, though added on to for $20, never had that money put on it.
[14:51.990 --> 14:58.050]  Supposedly, we're told in internal memos that you can trace the transaction and verify whether or not it did occur.
[14:59.450 --> 15:06.190]  Apparently, that's impossible on add-ons, which shows a security glitch if duplication is ever possible.
[15:08.330 --> 15:12.830]  Despite the fact that Emmanuel says he has an employee pass, I've examined it.
[15:12.950 --> 15:14.830]  I don't believe it's an employee pass.
[15:14.970 --> 15:19.410]  I believe it's a pass actually used in training.
[15:20.490 --> 15:30.230]  It would be totally invalid on any machine, either token booth computers inside the booth or on turnstiles.
[15:31.230 --> 15:33.310]  I do have an employee swipe pass.
[15:33.430 --> 15:40.030]  I'm not going to let any great experimentation go on with it, because I'd like to hang on to my job.
[15:41.710 --> 15:43.670]  A few other things.
[15:44.050 --> 15:50.110]  Okay, there is one known temporary successful defeat of the MetroCard system.
[15:50.970 --> 16:02.310]  In around March of this year, someone was arrested at 34th Street and either 7th or 8th Avenue for using a card, which they made by the following.
[16:02.470 --> 16:18.430]  They took a recording studio or tape recorder, recorded the card's, quote, sounds, unquote, on 8-track tape, glued it to either a plastic or cardboard card, and successfully entered the subway station.
[16:19.510 --> 16:25.050]  The official transit authority line on how this person was caught is as follows.
[16:25.470 --> 16:30.170]  Gee, we noticed something happen on the central computer at 130 Livingston Street.
[16:31.070 --> 16:44.010]  What I understand from other sources is that, no, there was some cop standing around, saw some guy take what didn't look like a MetroCard out of his pocket, use it, and then decide to go over and ask questions.
[16:44.270 --> 16:46.450]  Trust me, it's the obvious things that get you.
[16:47.110 --> 16:48.890]  We have a question somewhere?
[16:49.250 --> 16:49.630]  Yeah?
[16:50.610 --> 16:51.010]  Okay.
[16:51.790 --> 16:55.170]  Um, a couple other late-breaking things.
[16:55.170 --> 17:00.730]  I've got a couple of screens, which may be indicative of something, but probably not very useful.
[17:01.970 --> 17:03.310]  Uh, let's see.
[17:14.220 --> 17:15.420]  All right, let's go back.
[17:19.860 --> 17:23.680]  I was told we were going to have an overhead projector, not a transparency projector.
[17:23.980 --> 17:27.880]  Anyway, a few interesting things.
[17:28.020 --> 17:42.400]  A Clark can examine certain fields off a card when it swipes through either, uh, the swipe, uh, area of the token booth computer inside the booth or the swipe area directly under the clerk's, uh, nose outside the booth.
[17:43.260 --> 17:47.340]  A few interesting things are, uh, what pops up for a passenger card.
[17:47.960 --> 17:50.560]  Remaining value in dollars and cents.
[17:51.100 --> 17:56.440]  Fair card type, which is either full fair or pre-encoded, pre-valued actually.
[17:57.320 --> 17:58.160]  Expiration date.
[17:58.280 --> 17:59.160]  Now, this is interesting.
[17:59.420 --> 18:07.600]  For both employee cards and passenger cards, expiration date is always one of a very limited set.
[18:08.500 --> 18:15.940]  2359 PM on either April, August, or December on the last day of the month.
[18:16.140 --> 18:19.500]  Uh, the earliest one seen is April 30th, 1995.
[18:20.800 --> 18:26.080]  Uh, last use date for both passenger and employee cards.
[18:26.080 --> 18:32.320]  There's something called the zone code, which on passenger cards is 32 zeros followed by a one.
[18:33.080 --> 18:36.620]  Underneath it are some X's under given places.
[18:37.840 --> 18:44.120]  Uh, the employee code for that zone code is all zeros with the X's in the same place.
[18:44.600 --> 18:48.620]  Then there's a field called bus rail, which is always three.
[18:49.060 --> 18:51.740]  A field called daily trips, which is always zero.
[18:52.020 --> 18:55.100]  A field called acceptance code, which is also always zero.
[18:55.680 --> 18:59.020]  Uh, as I said, it's interesting, but probably not useful.
[18:59.860 --> 19:00.960]  Uh, further glitches.
[19:01.080 --> 19:05.560]  You may have seen all the signs that say you can only get cards in multiples of five dollars.
[19:05.820 --> 19:07.780]  You can only add on in multiples of five dollars.
[19:08.780 --> 19:09.180]  Rungo.
[19:09.400 --> 19:12.540]  If you have a blank card, you can get any amount from 501.
[19:12.680 --> 19:16.340]  We're not supposed to sell it to you for five dollars and one cent, but we could.
[19:18.060 --> 19:27.300]  Um, there's one opportunity for some interesting human engineering, but overall I don't think it's really that useful.
[19:28.740 --> 19:29.260]  Um,
[19:32.360 --> 19:35.020]  a couple years ago I put a personal ad in the Village Voice.
[19:35.940 --> 19:39.280]  Got a response from a woman who was then working for IBM.
[19:39.680 --> 19:40.600]  We got to talking.
[19:40.600 --> 19:44.260]  Supposedly she did a lot of the code work on this.
[19:44.960 --> 19:47.580]  There's a free dating service in New York.
[19:48.180 --> 19:53.500]  You can reach them on area code 212-949-4500.
[19:54.580 --> 19:59.040]  She's in the attached category between age 30 and 40.
[19:59.040 --> 20:05.740]  She brags that she's an ex-ballerina, used to be with IBM, and has two math degrees, and likes younger men.
[20:07.020 --> 20:11.780]  So, this is a big opportunity for all you lonely hackers out there.
[20:12.480 --> 20:19.320]  I don't think she's really, uh, going to give you enough info to crack this, but hey, it may help your social life.
[20:21.040 --> 20:21.980]  Have you tried?
[20:22.280 --> 20:23.920]  Uh, I'm, I'm attached.
[20:24.180 --> 20:24.540]  Sorry.
[20:25.280 --> 20:25.700]  So she.
[20:29.100 --> 20:30.420]  Someone said so she.
[20:30.620 --> 20:32.900]  Uh, I think that's pretty much it.
[20:33.140 --> 20:34.900]  Uh, you can get the handout later.
[20:35.140 --> 20:36.260]  Any, any questions?
[20:37.480 --> 20:39.680]  Uh, guy with glasses, middle of the...
[20:39.680 --> 20:43.260]  Have you ever talked to the revenue equipment maintainers?
[20:43.400 --> 20:44.800]  You know, the techs that come over there...
[20:44.800 --> 20:47.120]  Have we ever talked to the revenue equipment maintainers?
[20:47.220 --> 20:48.040]  Lots of times.
[20:48.440 --> 20:49.240]  Uh, they tell you.
[20:49.400 --> 20:50.840]  They're pretty closed mouth.
[20:51.040 --> 20:52.580]  Most of them are not TA.
[20:53.000 --> 20:57.960]  You can't really schmooze with them, start complaining about the union or management or something.
[20:58.460 --> 21:01.100]  They're from Cubic Corporation, most of them.
[21:02.140 --> 21:04.120]  Do you have an outside concern servicing?
[21:04.120 --> 21:14.040]  Yeah, some simple things are still done in-house, but, uh, any electronic stuff on the turnstiles, uh, when they've ID'd themselves, they're from Cubic.
[21:15.400 --> 21:16.460]  Lady in the third row?
[21:16.940 --> 21:17.460]  Uh, yes.
[21:17.680 --> 21:22.280]  Does the magnetic strip contain just numerical data or often numerical data?
[21:22.540 --> 21:23.800]  We don't know.
[21:23.940 --> 21:25.520]  We're way behind on the technology.
[21:25.680 --> 21:26.960]  There is some evidence, however.
[21:27.220 --> 21:30.620]  I don't know how many people are familiar with magnetic strip technology for credit cards.
[21:30.860 --> 21:34.340]  There are three fields, uh, standard on a magnetic strip.
[21:34.500 --> 21:36.820]  Usually for credit cards, only one and two are used.
[21:37.380 --> 21:42.760]  We're looking for, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, the third, uh, read a writer for the third area.
[21:43.080 --> 21:45.320]  We believe that that's where there's a lot of stuff.
[21:46.900 --> 21:48.080]  Uh, Guy in Blue?
[21:48.700 --> 21:53.930]  Um, this is, this happened in the Chamber Street station.
[21:54.230 --> 21:59.550]  Uh, basically when the card just came out, uh, uh, a couple of friends of mine bought the cards.
[21:59.890 --> 22:01.090]  Can you talk about it?
[22:01.270 --> 22:01.870]  We got a microphone?
[22:01.890 --> 22:03.050]  I'll repeat pretty much off.
[22:03.150 --> 22:04.990]  Or you can go to the microphone in the center.
[22:05.510 --> 22:05.950]  All right.
[22:12.590 --> 22:12.990]  Thanks.
[22:13.330 --> 22:14.970]  I was gonna say that one, but okay.
[22:15.450 --> 22:15.810]  Okay.
[22:16.270 --> 22:16.730]  Are we in?
[22:16.930 --> 22:17.650]  No, it's okay.
[22:17.810 --> 22:18.090]  It's okay.
[22:18.270 --> 22:19.050]  Still my glory.
[22:19.190 --> 22:24.630]  Uh, this happened at Chamber Street when they first started, uh, uh, giving out the, uh, the, the fair card, so to speak.
[22:25.390 --> 22:29.070]  Um, basically some of us were just getting used to how to swipe the cards.
[22:29.250 --> 22:31.030]  A friend of mine swiped it.
[22:31.070 --> 22:32.910]  It said, it said, go try it again.
[22:33.450 --> 22:35.690]  And when he swiped it a second time, it worked.
[22:35.850 --> 22:38.030]  And he got, uh, debited twice.
[22:38.390 --> 22:38.790]  Yeah.
[22:38.850 --> 22:43.310]  There was a glitch whereby if you swiped at a second turnstile, that always happened.
[22:43.770 --> 22:45.970]  Uh, in fact, there were handouts on that.
[22:46.190 --> 22:49.550]  Uh, if you do get that, swipe at the same turnstile.
[22:49.790 --> 22:51.210]  Do not go to another turnstile.
[22:51.210 --> 22:55.450]  Uh, I don't have an offhand explanation on why that happens, but it does happen.
[22:56.830 --> 22:58.370]  Uh, any other questions?
[22:58.570 --> 23:00.130]  In the white shirt, towards the back.
[23:00.270 --> 23:06.070]  Are there any similarities to the DC Metro connections you have there?
[23:06.110 --> 23:08.410]  Are there any similarities to DC's card?
[23:08.830 --> 23:09.530]  Very little.
[23:09.870 --> 23:10.350]  Or BART.
[23:10.970 --> 23:11.410]  Sorry?
[23:11.650 --> 23:12.230]  Or BART.
[23:12.370 --> 23:12.790]  BART.
[23:13.850 --> 23:15.570]  I'm not familiar with that at all.
[23:16.270 --> 23:17.310]  Got a BART card on you?
[23:17.550 --> 23:18.190]  Yes, I do.
[23:18.350 --> 23:19.250]  Oh, could you bring it up?
[23:19.410 --> 23:19.730]  Sure.
[23:20.370 --> 23:20.890]  Okay.
[23:21.170 --> 23:22.750]  Guy in the black shirt here.
[23:27.520 --> 23:29.600]  I haven't seen PATH cards either.
[23:30.680 --> 23:31.200]  Okay.
[23:36.880 --> 23:41.400]  I'm holding in my hand a BART card, which is way similar to a DC card.
[23:41.520 --> 23:43.160]  Very little similarity to a Metro card.
[23:43.420 --> 23:45.680]  Metro cards, once again, tend to be plastic.
[23:46.760 --> 23:56.400]  Much closer to a credit card than to these things.
[23:56.640 --> 23:57.960]  Uh, here's your PATH card.
[23:58.660 --> 23:59.600]  You can hold on to it.
[23:59.700 --> 24:00.620]  It's only got one trip in there.
[24:00.840 --> 24:01.200]  Oh, big deal.
[24:01.600 --> 24:03.360]  Yeah, like I go to New Jersey that often.
[24:04.000 --> 24:08.500]  Uh, green shirt in the middle here.
[24:08.660 --> 24:11.100]  Do you have any contact information for the Cuban Corporation?
[24:11.660 --> 24:14.080]  No, uh, I believe it's in California.
[24:15.260 --> 24:18.220]  The Cuban Western Corporation is in San Diego.
[24:18.220 --> 24:18.320]  No.
[24:18.620 --> 24:19.600]  Ah, that's...
[24:19.600 --> 24:22.900]  If anybody gets out that way, it's a good place at Dumpster Dive.
[24:24.760 --> 24:25.740]  Excellent idea.
[24:26.200 --> 24:27.280]  There's also been some...
[24:27.280 --> 24:28.520]  But the weather is really pretty cool.
[24:28.620 --> 24:30.860]  Yeah, and things don't get soggy in the dumpster.
[24:31.220 --> 24:36.320]  Uh, there's a suggestion to Dumpster Dive San Diego for Cubic Western Corporation.
[24:36.840 --> 24:50.020]  Uh, there is a suggestion to Dumpster Dive, uh, either 370 J Street, which is Transit Authority headquarters, or 140 Livingston Plaza, which is, uh, the building that we're almost 100% sure the main computer is in.
[24:50.020 --> 24:54.000]  Uh, they recycle the office paper in both of them.
[24:54.260 --> 24:56.020]  The... it's relatively secure.
[24:56.260 --> 25:01.160]  I could probably do it, but they'd ask too many questions seeing me in the recycled paper bin.
[25:02.040 --> 25:03.100]  On the aisle.
[25:03.640 --> 25:12.060]  Um, I... I got to speak to a Cubic employee about 10 days ago while they were fixing machines at, um, South Station.
[25:12.200 --> 25:12.880]  Uh, this is good.
[25:13.020 --> 25:14.520]  Get on... get on... get on the microphone.
[25:16.320 --> 25:18.680]  The man has spoken to a Cubic employee.
[25:18.680 --> 25:22.160]  I actually got to see what was inside the actual turnstiles.
[25:22.440 --> 25:29.880]  Um, inside... well, I'm opening up the... the reader-writer, there wasn't much interesting in there, but on the side panel, uh, was opened up.
[25:29.980 --> 25:37.980]  There was a keypad in there, and there was also two on-off switches, one for regular power, was right in the center in the top of the panel, one for battery backup.
[25:37.980 --> 25:45.040]  I guess that what they do is they swipe a metro-like type card through the thing and then enter their code in order to have access to the system.
[25:45.240 --> 25:50.540]  Because I remember, I think I heard you on the radio about 10 days ago as well, uh, saying that that's how you got access to the system.
[25:50.920 --> 25:55.840]  Um, but he said that there were five optical lines leading to... he said 370 J Street.
[25:55.840 --> 25:59.020]  Uh, so once again, if it's one Livingston Plaza, I don't know.
[25:59.200 --> 26:01.580]  He said that the readers were read-write.
[26:02.060 --> 26:03.560]  Once again, that's just what he told me.
[26:03.680 --> 26:04.700]  He was very friendly.
[26:04.920 --> 26:07.660]  I did write down the... the manuals that they had with them.
[26:08.080 --> 26:12.160]  Uh, they were from the National Learning Corporation.
[26:12.780 --> 26:15.400]  Uh, also it was cubic, and then there was a whole...
[26:15.400 --> 26:17.280]  I... I wrote a letter to... to Emmanuel.
[26:17.580 --> 26:19.020]  I... I hope it gets published in 2600.
[26:19.420 --> 26:23.160]  Um, but, uh, and that's... I mean, I have the actual names.
[26:23.160 --> 26:28.600]  I guess I'll put it on whatever FTP site we're going to have set up over here, because I don't have a printout, but I'll have access to it later.
[26:28.660 --> 26:35.400]  We have a copy of one maintainer's manual, which is, uh, pretty useless unless you want to open it up and smash things.
[26:35.440 --> 26:37.480]  We've... we've tried reading stuff there.
[26:37.960 --> 26:41.440]  There's not terribly much that the one manual we have can tell us.
[26:41.620 --> 26:48.340]  The manuals that this gentleman may have, uh, seen are probably more useful, but the one we've got, so far, nothing.
[26:48.840 --> 27:05.200]  Uh, what's interesting about the... the token booth computer is that there are two key slots, one for, uh, transit authority supervisors, one for cubic, uh, technicians, which, uh, when you open this, and, uh, in the case of a supervisor...
[27:05.200 --> 27:12.320]  Well, actually, in the case of both, swipe your own, uh, swipe pass, it gives you different menus than it does for the clerk.
[27:12.840 --> 27:18.500]  Um, so, uh, we've... we've tried all the traditional ways of hacking a system.
[27:18.500 --> 27:20.640]  Control-Alt-Delete, et cetera, et cetera.
[27:21.300 --> 27:23.300]  Uh, nothing works.
[27:23.440 --> 27:25.880]  In fact, many keys are... are totally dead.
[27:27.140 --> 27:28.300]  Uh, questions.
[27:28.520 --> 27:30.060]  Man in blue with a Mets cap.
[27:34.430 --> 27:39.330]  Yeah, card readers and buses are supposed to start in a little over a year, year and a half.
[27:39.570 --> 27:43.010]  Eventually, as Emmanuel mentioned, there will be no more tokens.
[27:43.650 --> 27:50.930]  Uh, supposedly, uh, also, uh, one-trip, uh, deals will be, uh, uh, like in D.C.
[27:50.990 --> 27:56.110]  You go to a machine, you throw in whatever money it is, and you get a card good for just the one trip.
[27:56.990 --> 27:58.010]  Redcap up front here.
[27:58.230 --> 28:00.690]  Uh, what are the plans for student passes?
[28:01.010 --> 28:01.910]  Student passes.
[28:02.090 --> 28:02.370]  Oh, yeah.
[28:02.630 --> 28:12.990]  There, there are, uh, plans for student passes and, uh, senior citizen passes, where those would be associated with a given person and probably have some sort of photo ID on it.
[28:13.370 --> 28:21.230]  Uh, uh, you would, uh, be able to purchase at half price, if you're a senior citizen, additional rides.
[28:21.770 --> 28:26.630]  And, uh, if student pass, it would probably be a year thing, good for a given number of rides a day.
[28:26.830 --> 28:32.770]  So all those, uh, days of going somewhere else on the way home from school are probably going to end.
[28:33.750 --> 28:35.290]  Red shirt on the aisle.
[28:35.730 --> 28:37.210]  What is the little hole for?
[28:37.350 --> 28:39.790]  The little hole, yeah, that's a mystery to me, too.
[28:39.910 --> 28:44.310]  The official scheme is that the little hole has something to do with using it on buses.
[28:45.070 --> 28:45.430]  How?
[28:45.630 --> 28:46.290]  I don't know.
[28:46.690 --> 28:48.150]  You can put it on your keychain.
[28:48.270 --> 28:49.770]  Yeah, you can put it on your keychain.
[28:50.490 --> 28:53.790]  You can, you can, if you're Howard Stern, I'm not going to say what you can do with it.
[28:54.110 --> 28:55.610]  Uh, yes, okay.
[28:56.170 --> 28:58.810]  Uh, black shirt, almost all the way back in the middle.
[28:59.410 --> 29:00.930]  I just got some useful information.
[29:02.590 --> 29:08.410]  First of all, as far as, uh, distributed use of card access,
[29:15.750 --> 29:17.970]  you can have systems that have a common,
[29:21.780 --> 29:26.140]  it's called distributed systems, and they have local processors and card readers.
[29:26.440 --> 29:39.720]  Uh, those card, those machines have software written so that a card that's accessed to it has its data downloaded to a distributed unit, so it would appear to be a local unit.
[29:39.720 --> 29:47.820]  Those units update the, uh, uh, wires or fiber optics that the gentleman in the front makes it sound very familiar to me.
[29:48.280 --> 29:58.920]  And the second thing, which you said you're looking for a read writer for the third strip on the magnetic system, um, inherent in that is very, very difficult to be close.
[29:59.140 --> 30:09.120]  When you make a card read writer, typically what you do is you put a very specific, uh, uh, chip in it that encodes it locally.
[30:09.740 --> 30:20.660]  So the only way you would possibly be able to do that would be to have one of the read writer units, which apparently they are, because they have to actually read the, uh, the same ones that are at the same.
[30:23.580 --> 30:28.980]  Well, frankly, I've thought of, uh, actually expropriating a token booth computer.
[30:28.980 --> 30:33.820]  There are a number of, uh, problems with that, the greatest of which is it's illegal.
[30:34.700 --> 30:38.340]  Uh, but there are logistical problems beyond that.
[30:38.480 --> 30:41.800]  Any use of it, the problem is that I would be identified.
[30:42.040 --> 30:46.840]  So, essentially, we're forced to brute force hack this sort of thing.
[30:47.380 --> 30:51.840]  There's some talk of, uh, experimenting with oscilloscopes tonight.
[30:51.840 --> 31:00.660]  Of course, uh, as Emmanuel has put in the schedule, we'll get back to you before, before things are over.
[31:01.920 --> 31:04.120]  There was a little crosstalk that sounded interesting.
[31:04.260 --> 31:04.800]  What was that, guys?
[31:05.360 --> 31:05.760]  Fireball.
[31:06.780 --> 31:08.000]  Oh, he's gonna burn.
[31:10.200 --> 31:13.540]  Yeah, somebody get over there and turn it off, please.
[31:14.380 --> 31:16.180]  Move it away from the wall, if possible.
[31:17.240 --> 31:19.360]  Is it connected to that thing, or is it freestanding?
[31:19.580 --> 31:19.700]  Yeah.
[31:26.610 --> 31:28.010]  Thank you very much.
[31:33.950 --> 31:37.510]  Uh, somebody, yes, dead ahead.
[31:45.600 --> 31:48.780]  Uh, I don't know where Emmanuel is.
[31:48.880 --> 31:51.820]  He's, uh, the font of all technical information.
[31:52.020 --> 31:53.040]  Anybody else has tried that?
[31:53.040 --> 31:56.560]  Uh, putting magnetic filings or such?
[31:57.300 --> 31:57.780]  Huh?
[32:01.120 --> 32:01.900]  I'm sorry.
[32:07.080 --> 32:07.560]  Only?
[32:08.060 --> 32:09.660]  That's what we know so far.
[32:11.000 --> 32:12.840]  Yeah, that for all we know could be used for this.
[32:13.020 --> 32:24.040]  No one, apparently, has tried putting iron filings or similar stuff on this thing to see if it, uh, actually works as a magnetic, uh, if it actually is magnetic.
[32:24.280 --> 32:25.980]  On the island, sorry, the gray shirt.
[32:54.760 --> 32:59.560]  Yeah, okay, the, uh, for people who couldn't hear, uh, apparently iron filings wouldn't work.
[33:00.280 --> 33:02.860]  Uh, audio technology seems to be a way to go.
[33:02.860 --> 33:07.480]  And that sort of backs up that anecdotal account of the guy at 34th and 8th.
[33:08.580 --> 33:11.620]  The guy in the red shirt and then the guy sitting down next to him.
[33:17.140 --> 33:22.320]  Yeah, that was already addressed by, I believe, the guy in purple in your neck of the woods there.
[33:22.500 --> 33:23.920]  The guy sitting down had a question.
[33:30.440 --> 33:32.640]  The problem with that is they won't fit.
[33:33.040 --> 33:36.000]  They're too wide, or thick actually.
[33:40.410 --> 33:41.590]  Yeah, that's a good idea.
[33:41.710 --> 33:44.070]  If someone can supply me with that, I'll do some experimentation.
[33:44.610 --> 33:46.130]  Purple shirt, further back.
[33:50.840 --> 33:55.040]  There are some listed in the classifieds in 2600.
[33:57.020 --> 33:57.720]  I don't know.
[33:57.840 --> 33:58.540]  I've never used them.
[34:00.720 --> 34:02.400]  Black shirt, four or five rows back.
[34:02.400 --> 34:08.220]  Can I say that makes the whole central computer idea a little higher?
[34:08.560 --> 34:09.800]  Exactly, exactly.
[34:10.100 --> 34:13.220]  However, the distributed network idea...
[34:13.220 --> 34:14.680]  I can't talk under this thing.
[34:15.360 --> 34:18.700]  Sounds good as far as bus technology goes.
[34:18.760 --> 34:20.500]  In other words, it gets downloaded locally.
[34:20.960 --> 34:21.040]  Huh?
[34:21.420 --> 34:26.000]  The other way to really keep track of it would be, the bus about to store the information that you swipe through.
[34:26.240 --> 34:28.480]  Download the data link.
[34:30.200 --> 34:34.900]  Yeah, well, the likelihood of the bus constantly downloading over radio is pretty unlikely.
[34:35.260 --> 34:44.600]  As was mentioned, what's likely to happen is that it will be stored locally and then downloaded every end of a bus run, every eight hours, every day, whatever.
[34:45.080 --> 34:46.760]  Way in the back, in the center, standing.
[35:04.490 --> 35:05.870]  Yeah, there's a...
[35:10.170 --> 35:14.710]  Well, if there's a large group of people going somewhere tonight, line up.
[35:16.530 --> 35:20.590]  A short staff person in a red shirt over there had a question standing?
[35:20.910 --> 35:21.010]  No?
[35:23.850 --> 35:24.410]  Huh?
[35:24.410 --> 35:25.330]  It's immediate?
[35:25.890 --> 35:26.110]  Yeah.
[35:26.390 --> 35:27.150]  Oh, the update.
[35:27.570 --> 35:29.190]  The guy in the beard, sing down.
[35:29.190 --> 35:41.180]  One of the things we may find that the tape, that's magnetic encoding, is that they're not encoded or commonly used,
[35:48.760 --> 36:06.410]  written in, specifically due to the theme of your off-the-shelf magnetic rewire, specifically to reduce the ability of someone to include their own cards.
[36:06.870 --> 36:08.530]  It's a highly effective experiment.
[36:10.090 --> 36:11.130]  Can that...
[36:11.130 --> 36:11.530]  Can that...
[36:11.530 --> 36:15.610]  Okay, but the 8-track tape idea, would that still work if that was so?
[36:19.150 --> 36:23.070]  Or maybe they're just, you know, while they're...
[36:25.470 --> 36:27.130]  Right, much like a VCR.
[36:36.780 --> 36:43.940]  Yeah, for people on this site who didn't hear that, the comment was about the angle that the data was encoded on the stripe.
[36:43.940 --> 36:47.580]  It's probably at an angle in order to defeat just passing it through.
[36:48.580 --> 36:49.300]  On the aisle?
[36:49.300 --> 36:53.700]  I mean, something that nobody's mentioned is the possibility it's both recorded...
[36:53.700 --> 37:01.260]  The amount is recorded on the card magnetically itself, and it's a rewrite head, plus that's verified later on with some account number.
[37:01.460 --> 37:15.680]  And therefore, if they see that some amount has been used that has never been bought or purchased, they can put a, you know, a lock on that account number and possibly set off an alarm or cause the card to deactivate the way it's used again.
[37:15.820 --> 37:21.000]  So it might actually be both inserted on the card and verified through some sort of distribution network.
[37:21.140 --> 37:29.080]  That's not impossible, and frankly, my feeling, having worked for the Transit Authority for a few years, is they're paranoid enough to do that.
[37:31.660 --> 37:33.420]  Up front, second row, in the middle.
[37:33.700 --> 37:38.460]  Would that lead to some credence given to the official answer for how that guy got busted there?
[37:39.380 --> 37:40.260]  It might.
[37:40.700 --> 37:41.320]  It might.
[37:42.580 --> 37:47.380]  The question is, would that give credence to the official answer on how the guy got busted to show up on a computer?
[37:49.460 --> 37:50.620]  End of the first row.
[37:56.920 --> 38:00.940]  The presentation is
[38:04.320 --> 38:04.700]  welcome.
[38:05.620 --> 38:08.540]  Is there something that's thin enough to maybe go through the reader?
[38:09.800 --> 38:10.680]  Probably not.
[38:11.380 --> 38:13.860]  Well, the problem is I won't be able to try it for a few days.
[38:15.160 --> 38:16.000]  Hang on to it.
[38:16.060 --> 38:17.100]  Talk to Emmanuel afterwards.
[38:17.100 --> 38:20.160]  You'll be able to get an email address for me.
[38:21.360 --> 38:21.800]  Possibly.
[38:23.920 --> 38:24.360]  Indirectly.
[38:25.140 --> 38:26.740]  Through a non-Panet Phi.
[38:28.560 --> 38:29.360]  Third row.
[38:29.720 --> 38:35.640]  When you were talking about the numbers, you mentioned that the six-digit batch number, you said you came in packs of 100 or something?
[38:35.700 --> 38:36.900]  They come in packs of 100.
[38:37.040 --> 38:38.740]  Blank cards come in packs of 100.
[38:40.680 --> 38:43.860]  And each pack of 100 has the same...
[38:46.360 --> 38:47.600]  This is why I didn't adjust.
[38:47.820 --> 38:50.400]  Each pack of 100 has the same batch number.
[38:51.380 --> 38:54.260]  And each card has an individual serial number.
[38:58.460 --> 39:03.180]  What are you told to do if a customer shows up with a slightly deformed card?
[39:03.480 --> 39:04.920]  Oh, that's an interesting question.
[39:04.920 --> 39:08.180]  What happens if someone shows up with a slightly deformed card?
[39:08.520 --> 39:10.680]  It depends on the deformity.
[39:11.240 --> 39:15.640]  If you cut the top of the card off, it doesn't really affect anything.
[39:16.040 --> 39:18.120]  It may be annoying, but you can still use it.
[39:18.280 --> 39:23.480]  If you want a new card, we can take the money off the first one and put it on the second one.
[39:23.480 --> 39:28.780]  If you have a card that's been bent at the magnetic strip, sometimes they will still work.
[39:28.900 --> 39:30.380]  Sometimes they will work badly.
[39:31.020 --> 39:32.620]  Sometimes they will not work at all.
[39:32.800 --> 39:35.240]  If you take it to the booth and we can...
[39:35.240 --> 39:36.160]  Excuse me.
[39:36.800 --> 39:41.160]  And we can determine how much money is still on the card, we can give you a new card.
[39:41.160 --> 39:47.160]  Otherwise, what we give you is a business reply envelope.
[39:47.460 --> 39:55.300]  And you either mail the card to the MetroCard Center at 10 Columbus Circle, or you can take it there yourself.
[39:55.680 --> 40:04.560]  And they'll determine whether or not it's a real card, a legit card, and give you a new card or your money back.
[40:04.560 --> 40:08.560]  And in fact, the only way to get money back is to take it or mail it there.
[40:10.100 --> 40:18.860]  The interesting thing is, you can get a card with cash, you can get a card with tokens, but you can't turn a card into cash or tokens at a token booth.
[40:19.860 --> 40:21.680]  This has something to do with crime.
[40:21.680 --> 40:30.260]  As you may recall, a couple of years ago, they eliminated cashing in of tokens at token booths because too many people were essentially plugging up turnstiles and then cashing them in.
[40:30.720 --> 40:32.420]  And there was a question way in the back.
[40:32.420 --> 40:33.640]  The
[40:40.000 --> 40:41.560]  TVC is locked.
[40:47.770 --> 40:50.070]  Yeah, it's pretty secure.
[40:50.070 --> 40:51.390]  I've had that thought.
[40:53.290 --> 41:02.850]  The line is actually mildly armored in the last several feet from where it comes out of the wall to where it gets into the computer.
[41:03.110 --> 41:07.170]  The computer itself is made of stainless steel, or the casing is at least.
[41:11.190 --> 41:12.770]  It's pretty resistant.
[41:12.770 --> 41:17.430]  I've leaked my drink on it more than once, and nothing has happened.
[41:19.110 --> 41:21.390]  You can't really smash it.
[41:21.850 --> 41:24.530]  If you try smashing it, the best you'll do is loosen a key.
[41:25.450 --> 41:30.430]  I mean, everything from brute force, it seems very secure.
[41:30.430 --> 41:37.170]  Yes, I think if we had enough hackers and enough time to require a token booth, we could tap into it.
[41:37.570 --> 41:40.130]  But, gee, I don't want to do time in the state pen.
[41:42.110 --> 41:43.790]  White shirt in front of the light.
[41:44.270 --> 41:44.830]  I
[41:50.420 --> 41:52.160]  have a card reader system.
[41:52.800 --> 42:13.820]  And the company that makes them in upstate New York, the biggest problem they had in defeating these was when you stuck two cards in the reader at the same time, and then yanked one out rather quickly, and we throw the system off, and you end up getting a charged card and your money back for two charged cards or whatever.
[42:13.820 --> 42:20.760]  The point is that, I think, the weakness in this system is the writing system rather than the reading system.
[42:21.360 --> 42:24.280]  And unfortunately, from home, you don't have access to the writing system.
[42:24.760 --> 42:26.380]  Only the people I do know.
[42:27.380 --> 42:30.620]  Yeah, yeah, the writing system is inside the token booth.
[42:30.760 --> 42:32.480]  There's pretty much no way you can get to it.
[42:32.480 --> 42:40.300]  But the comment had to do with defeating the system by simultaneously swiping two cards, one on top of the other, more or less.
[42:40.680 --> 42:44.160]  I've tried doing that, both at the turnstile and at the token booth computer.
[42:44.580 --> 42:45.280]  They're too good.
[42:45.540 --> 42:47.020]  They will not go through.
[42:48.920 --> 42:49.680]  Over here.
[42:54.220 --> 42:58.180]  If we save those three million tokens, can we still keep using them after 1970?
[42:59.860 --> 43:01.840]  Offhand, official, I do not know.
[43:03.040 --> 43:10.900]  Unofficially, what will probably happen is you'll see signs saying you cash your tokens in by such and such a date, you'll only be able to get a MetroCard for them.
[43:11.160 --> 43:12.920]  So there are a dozen MetroCards for them.
[43:13.960 --> 43:16.980]  And eventually, the slots will be...
[43:16.980 --> 43:22.260]  First of all, it's relatively easy to steal a slot with the new turnstiles.
[43:22.360 --> 43:23.620]  You can do it right from the computer.
[43:24.300 --> 43:27.940]  And secondly, eventually, they'll just put a plate over it.
[43:28.820 --> 43:30.540]  So tokens are pretty obsolete.
[43:30.540 --> 43:33.740]  Oh, I wanted to say a word about...
[43:34.540 --> 43:41.120]  If you have a criminal or venal interest in the transit authority, this is probably not the way to go.
[43:42.620 --> 43:48.040]  Artificial tokens seems like the most likely high-tech hack that's still possible.
[43:49.120 --> 43:52.300]  Other than that, there's the old favorites like booth robbery.
[43:56.270 --> 43:57.350]  Any other questions?
[43:58.410 --> 43:59.190]  Right shirt here.
[43:59.650 --> 44:04.990]  Have you tried scumming up the two cards to see if you can get them then or not?
[44:05.290 --> 44:06.230]  No, I haven't.
[44:07.730 --> 44:09.330]  Purple shirt in the back on the wall?
[44:16.890 --> 44:17.810]  We don't know.
[44:18.210 --> 44:19.390]  We're trying to find out.
[44:20.550 --> 44:21.230]  Our friend?
[44:21.890 --> 44:25.830]  Is it possible that you could mess with the heads on the actual turnstile readers?
[44:26.110 --> 44:28.190]  Like, I don't know...
[44:28.190 --> 44:30.710]  Is it possible to mess with the heads on the turnstile readers?
[44:30.810 --> 44:33.950]  As you may have noticed, the turnstiles are stainless steel.
[44:33.950 --> 44:35.330]  They're pretty secure too.
[44:35.990 --> 44:46.390]  I'm sure if you have, as it's called, the jaws of life that the police use, you could probably pry them apart or whatever to do things.
[44:46.570 --> 44:51.510]  But if you've got that, why don't you just go to a quiet little bank in the country and...
[44:52.390 --> 44:53.690]  Women with a green headband.
[44:53.690 --> 44:54.490]  Yeah.
[44:56.140 --> 45:02.140]  Start phasing out tokens who clerks and start installing...
[45:02.140 --> 45:06.260]  Right now there are those $5 vending machines for tokens that don't work very well.
[45:06.460 --> 45:07.980]  Are you going to start having...
[45:07.980 --> 45:11.560]  You've stolen way too much money that I don't have.
[45:11.820 --> 45:18.120]  And are you going to start having wall-mounted, putting your MetroCard in a quarter to $25?
[45:18.860 --> 45:19.460]  Uh...
[45:25.460 --> 45:35.580]  Why do you think I'm here at a hacker's conference asking if anybody needs a bright young man who hasn't talked anything about on the modern PDP-11 on RPIP?
[45:35.680 --> 45:36.880]  But anyway...
[45:36.880 --> 45:39.060]  Yeah, some people actually know what I'm talking about.
[45:39.140 --> 45:39.460]  That's cool.
[45:40.060 --> 45:47.340]  The question is, are we phasing out tokens with those wonderfully lurking automatic machines on the walls?
[45:47.340 --> 45:49.140]  Unfortunately, yes.
[45:51.400 --> 45:51.920]  Uh...
[45:51.920 --> 45:52.760]  That's...
[45:52.760 --> 45:54.240]  I don't know what's going to happen.
[45:54.420 --> 45:55.320]  Officially, they're...
[45:55.320 --> 45:57.440]  Like DC, there's still going to be everybody...
[45:57.440 --> 46:00.340]  Somebody in each subway station for, uh...
[46:01.120 --> 46:01.380]  Uh...
[46:01.380 --> 46:03.820]  Questions, security, and, uh...
[46:03.820 --> 46:11.980]  As I stated earlier, if you want a card for some odd amount, like $65 or whatever, they're still going to do it, uh, in the booths.
[46:19.180 --> 46:23.900]  Well, we've considered all kinds of things, um, but, uh, we, we don't have the means to do all of them.
[46:24.100 --> 46:25.520]  Uh, that's what we need you folks for.
[46:25.900 --> 46:33.040]  Uh, someone out there was nice enough to spray this card with, uh, some, some nice chemical that shows, uh, clearly the, um, uh, the strips.
[46:33.300 --> 46:37.480]  So, if anyone wants to come up and look at that later, uh, maybe we can figure out what it's all about.
[46:37.480 --> 46:49.320]  Um, also, I'd like to introduce, uh, Bill SF from, uh, San Francisco, uh, who, uh, has had quite a few, uh, quite a bit of experience with the BART system out in San Francisco.
[46:49.320 --> 46:54.620]  In fact, um, um, he figured out how to completely, uh, crack that system.
[46:54.640 --> 46:56.080]  And they did not appreciate that.
[46:57.360 --> 46:57.800]  Um...
[46:57.800 --> 47:03.380]  So, I'd like the two of you, actually, to kind of trade information, uh, or, or tactics, or what have you.
[47:03.720 --> 47:04.420]  Bill SF.
[47:04.420 --> 47:04.540]  Bill Falk.
[47:12.830 --> 47:14.850]  Well, I just, first, can you hear me?
[47:15.150 --> 47:15.550]  Yeah.
[47:15.670 --> 47:15.890]  Okay.
[47:16.350 --> 47:22.010]  Uh, this is the first time I've actually seen what, uh, the domains of this look like.
[47:22.310 --> 47:32.850]  In fact, this is what I was gonna, uh, uh, start out is, uh, the way you approach, uh, taking care of a magnetic strip, is, is, is, get some, uh, magnetic material.
[47:32.950 --> 47:34.430]  Usually very fine iron filings.
[47:35.150 --> 47:41.850]  You only need a few milligrams of them, so a file and a nail or something where you can scratch off if you will be adequate.
[47:42.330 --> 47:47.110]  Sprinkle them on the magnetic stripe as it's been done here, and shake it around.
[47:47.490 --> 47:52.750]  And then, you have to do this a few times, lightly tap the card until you can see a very clear tracing.
[47:52.970 --> 47:57.310]  It'll get clearer, it'll continue to get clearer, it'll hit a point, and then it'll get weaker.
[47:57.470 --> 48:00.330]  And you'll soon find out where you can get the best look at it.
[48:00.330 --> 48:08.590]  Then take a piece of cellophane tape, scratch tape or whatever you call it here, and make a lifting, like you lift a fingerprint, and then stick it on paper so you can save it.
[48:09.230 --> 48:12.250]  That way you can tell what format it is.
[48:12.330 --> 48:23.910]  In this case, it's a two-track format, which it looks like it's, like on a credit card, it'd be tracks one, and then there's a wider track, which would be tracks two and three combined.
[48:25.210 --> 48:30.990]  It looks like the domains are not angled, unlike the Washington DC Metro and BART.
[48:31.230 --> 48:36.490]  They angle the domains in a clockwise direction at about seven and a half degrees.
[48:37.610 --> 48:44.890]  But these look like ordinary, like credit card style domains, and it looks like it's about 120 per inch.
[48:45.650 --> 48:47.550]  It sounds pretty conventional to me.
[48:48.050 --> 48:55.430]  Now, once you know what the shape and looks of the tracks are, of course, you don't need an eight-track recorder for this.
[48:55.550 --> 49:02.150]  You just need to find a head from a company like Michigan Magnetics that has this particular pattern.
[49:02.690 --> 49:07.790]  Now, once you have that taken care of, then it's probably time for action.
[49:07.890 --> 49:12.390]  All you then have to do is make the device like it was shown in 2600.
[49:12.390 --> 49:14.450]  It really works, and you get used to how to use it.
[49:14.590 --> 49:18.950]  And when your copy sounds like your original, you got the card.
[49:21.130 --> 49:24.850]  And I don't know how much of this I really should be saying.
[49:24.990 --> 49:26.550]  It's kind of a...
[49:26.550 --> 49:30.570]  I mean, I talk about this in Europe any time I want it, but I'm a little bit funny here.
[49:32.030 --> 49:32.390]  But...
[49:37.050 --> 49:41.510]  That's exactly why I'm wearing this, so you know what a guy in a red balaclava looks like.
[49:43.290 --> 49:44.530]  Informational purposes only.
[49:45.550 --> 49:49.350]  Yeah, of course, it's for informational purposes only, but I think disclaimers are a bunch of shit anyways.
[49:52.890 --> 49:53.690]  But, uh...
[49:53.690 --> 49:54.770]  So, uh...
[49:55.290 --> 49:56.670]  I mean, this looks very conventional.
[49:56.890 --> 50:05.570]  I heard the story about somebody trying to get one of these on a bulk tape eraser and it's not working.
[50:05.870 --> 50:07.510]  There's an interesting possibility here.
[50:08.130 --> 50:09.490]  But I don't, uh...
[50:09.490 --> 50:11.510]  But this seems like it's, uh...
[50:12.310 --> 50:16.310]  It doesn't seem like that type, but it's called a magnetic watermark.
[50:16.870 --> 50:19.270]  It's a very hardened magnetic field.
[50:19.350 --> 50:20.370]  It's very hard to erase.
[50:20.910 --> 50:24.930]  It has to be encoded at an elevated temperature on a special material.
[50:25.130 --> 50:26.490]  And it will not, uh...
[50:26.490 --> 50:27.490]  It will not, uh...
[50:27.490 --> 50:29.210]  Allow itself to be swiped at, uh...
[50:29.210 --> 50:30.910]  Or erased at a low temperature.
[50:32.490 --> 50:36.930]  Another possibility, which is not true of this card, but I, I would think they would have been smart enough to try.
[50:37.270 --> 50:39.910]  Because this, I can just tell I look at this, it'll be done easily.
[50:40.110 --> 50:42.490]  And don't ask me how to do it, because I'll have no part of this.
[50:44.410 --> 50:44.770]  Uh...
[50:44.770 --> 50:45.910]  But, uh...
[50:46.610 --> 50:51.550]  If they were really smart, they would use a system like on the Japanese phone cards, called buried domains.
[50:51.550 --> 50:52.370]  And, uh...
[50:52.370 --> 50:54.830]  To bring the domains to the surface, it requires a...
[50:54.830 --> 50:57.010]  A bias magnetic field.
[50:57.370 --> 50:58.730]  In other words, like a, uh...
[50:59.190 --> 51:03.970]  A DC magnetic field, like from a permanent magnet, at the right level, to make the domains come to the surface.
[51:04.410 --> 51:06.770]  Then, and only then, can you read and write the card.
[51:08.890 --> 51:09.770]  That, uh...
[51:09.770 --> 51:13.110]  That apparently has been fairly successful in Japan on their phone cards.
[51:13.290 --> 51:13.830]  And, uh...
[51:13.830 --> 51:15.550]  Well, a few people can do it, but, uh...
[51:16.290 --> 51:19.650]  Most people really aren't aware how to do that, and, uh...
[51:19.650 --> 51:22.750]  It'd be nice if there's someone here that can talk about that, that knows more.
[51:23.390 --> 51:24.810]  But, that's another subject.
[51:25.930 --> 51:26.330]  Uh...
[51:26.330 --> 51:26.870]  Is there any questions?
[51:30.670 --> 51:32.330]  I can't dismiss the lecture, but...
[51:32.910 --> 51:34.830]  If you consider that, uh...
[51:34.830 --> 51:36.030]  You have to slide...
[51:36.030 --> 51:39.090]  Because you have the card to prove that we are at a certain speed.
[51:39.350 --> 51:41.230]  Because if you do it too slow, it doesn't work.
[51:41.430 --> 51:42.710]  If you do it too fast, it doesn't work.
[51:43.130 --> 51:43.770]  So, I would...
[51:43.770 --> 51:44.810]  Do you know why?
[51:45.230 --> 51:47.390]  Well, that's so, because, uh...
[51:47.390 --> 51:49.710]  If you go into the magnetic recording, uh...
[51:49.710 --> 51:51.730]  As tape speed changes, uh...
[51:51.730 --> 51:53.870]  The equalization characteristics of the...
[51:54.290 --> 51:56.590]  Of the analog electronics, uh...
[51:56.590 --> 51:57.390]  Have to change.
[51:57.830 --> 52:00.310]  And so, they make the equalization where it works over, I guess, about...
[52:00.310 --> 52:01.670]  Probably about four to one speed range.
[52:02.050 --> 52:03.110]  Which isn't too extreme.
[52:03.290 --> 52:04.390]  And then you can shape the pulses.
[52:05.850 --> 52:06.650]  And, uh...
[52:06.650 --> 52:07.890]  And then you get the proper data.
[52:08.370 --> 52:11.150]  Also, looking at this card very closely...
[52:11.890 --> 52:12.290]  Uh...
[52:12.290 --> 52:12.590]  Uh...
[52:12.590 --> 52:14.870]  It is possible, by the way this card is designed...
[52:15.330 --> 52:16.370]  The thin track is...
[52:16.370 --> 52:18.590]  Is simply a track of one, zero, one, zero.
[52:18.590 --> 52:20.470]  It's nothing more than a, uh...
[52:20.470 --> 52:21.110]  A timing track.
[52:21.590 --> 52:23.270]  The timing track produces...
[52:23.270 --> 52:25.230]  As it is slid through, it tells...
[52:25.230 --> 52:27.590]  It tells the system how fast you are, uh...
[52:28.350 --> 52:30.710]  You are sliding, uh...
[52:30.710 --> 52:33.070]  You are sliding the card, uh...
[52:33.070 --> 52:33.250]  Through.
[52:33.570 --> 52:34.390]  So, at...
[52:34.390 --> 52:36.850]  So, synchronized to this track, you can, uh...
[52:36.850 --> 52:38.170]  Read and write to the...
[52:38.170 --> 52:40.350]  To the main stripe as you're sliding it through.
[52:44.870 --> 52:45.350]  Uh...
[52:45.350 --> 52:47.550]  You said, uh...
[52:47.550 --> 52:47.850]  Uh...
[52:47.850 --> 52:48.350]  There's...
[52:48.350 --> 52:52.850]  There would be high heat involved in erasing that one type of magnetic stripe.
[52:53.150 --> 52:54.810]  Yes, the magnetic watermark.
[52:54.930 --> 52:56.110]  Would that be, uh...
[52:56.110 --> 52:56.530]  A long...
[52:56.530 --> 52:57.570]  Would that be, uh...
[52:57.570 --> 52:58.930]  Like a long-term release heat?
[52:59.210 --> 52:59.470]  Would, like...
[52:59.470 --> 53:02.450]  Would, like, the token booth clerk know that was happening?
[53:02.750 --> 53:03.150]  Uh...
[53:03.150 --> 53:05.350]  This card is not of that system, let me tell you.
[53:05.350 --> 53:05.850]  I would just...
[53:05.850 --> 53:09.490]  I was just quickly going into other systems that have been, uh...
[53:09.490 --> 53:10.350]  Used, uh...
[53:11.330 --> 53:11.770]  Uh...
[53:11.770 --> 53:12.310]  Throughout the world.
[53:12.450 --> 53:13.610]  This is, uh...
[53:13.610 --> 53:14.310]  This is, uh...
[53:14.310 --> 53:17.570]  This is, as expected, a fairly low-tech system that, uh...
[53:18.510 --> 53:19.390]  I mean, it's...
[53:19.390 --> 53:20.130]  It's not...
[53:20.130 --> 53:21.010]  It's not like, uh...
[53:21.010 --> 53:22.610]  Credit cards in Germany or anything like that.
[53:23.870 --> 53:24.750]  Would, uh...
[53:24.750 --> 53:28.430]  Would it be possible to report or erase on that using, uh...
[53:28.430 --> 53:30.110]  Analog recording equipment, say?
[53:30.190 --> 53:31.010]  I mean, is it...
[53:31.010 --> 53:31.650]  Well, certainly.
[53:31.950 --> 53:32.390]  That's...
[53:32.390 --> 53:33.510]  Certainly, uh...
[53:33.510 --> 53:36.650]  Although, if you look at the pattern here, there's a one track that is, uh...
[53:37.250 --> 53:37.570]  Uh...
[53:37.570 --> 53:38.490]  Approximately, uh...
[53:38.490 --> 53:39.490]  Five millimeters wide.
[53:39.650 --> 53:41.890]  And another track that is about nine millimeters wide.
[53:42.470 --> 53:44.990]  So, the best thing is to get a head that fits that pattern.
[53:45.670 --> 53:46.070]  Or...
[53:46.070 --> 53:51.370]  Another approach, which I've never seen tried before to duplicate anything like this, is just to use, uh...
[53:51.370 --> 53:51.710]  Video heads.
[53:52.770 --> 53:55.990]  So, it can do the helical scan and pretty much, uh...
[53:55.990 --> 53:58.090]  Copy anything, even if it was a fancy, uh...
[53:58.090 --> 53:58.790]  Magnetic system.
[54:00.070 --> 54:00.470]  Um...
[54:00.470 --> 54:02.270]  I don't know if you know how fast it gets swiped.
[54:02.450 --> 54:07.590]  But looking at that card, do you feel that it's quite possible to read-write-head inside the turnstiles?
[54:07.990 --> 54:09.230]  In fact, uh...
[54:09.230 --> 54:12.130]  Looking at the card, I know exactly how they can, uh...
[54:12.130 --> 54:13.870]  Read and write to this card.
[54:14.030 --> 54:15.090]  I mean, if you look at it, it'll be obvious.
[54:15.730 --> 54:18.890]  How they can read and write to this card, uh...
[54:18.890 --> 54:20.090]  With you putting it through.
[54:20.270 --> 54:21.030]  Because they have the...
[54:21.030 --> 54:23.170]  The synchronization track, one, zero, one, zero.
[54:23.590 --> 54:24.250]  Which, uh...
[54:24.250 --> 54:24.710]  Sends pulses.
[54:24.870 --> 54:26.190]  It says, okay, next domain, next domain.
[54:26.590 --> 54:27.210]  So, it...
[54:27.210 --> 54:29.890]  By counting the pulses going on this tops, uh...
[54:30.970 --> 54:31.170]  Uh...
[54:31.170 --> 54:31.230]  Uh...
[54:31.230 --> 54:31.330]  Uh...
[54:31.330 --> 54:32.170]  It can, uh...
[54:32.170 --> 54:34.530]  Synchronize the reading and writing of the other track.
[54:34.670 --> 54:38.010]  You know, a comment about that is that, uh...
[54:38.010 --> 54:41.690]  When swiping it through either the token booth computer or the, uh...
[54:41.690 --> 54:49.270]  Passenger swipe unit directly in front of the clerk's window, you sometimes get an error message that says, I'll read it exactly.
[54:50.930 --> 54:51.290]  Uh...
[54:51.290 --> 54:51.930]  Read error.
[54:52.150 --> 54:54.210]  Fair media are lifted during read.
[54:54.550 --> 54:56.030]  So, that tends to, uh...
[54:56.550 --> 54:57.190]  Bear that out.
[54:57.370 --> 54:59.710]  If you lift it up, it doesn't read properly.
[55:01.190 --> 55:03.930]  Well, that's just saying you're not lining up the head with the tracks, right?
[55:04.150 --> 55:04.710]  Well, yeah.
[55:04.850 --> 55:05.310]  But, uh...
[55:05.310 --> 55:06.790]  You can get through it, uh...
[55:06.790 --> 55:07.530]  Almost all the way.
[55:07.650 --> 55:09.050]  And then, all of a sudden, uh...
[55:09.050 --> 55:09.950]  It'll come out with that.
[55:12.270 --> 55:12.630]  Okay.
[55:12.710 --> 55:14.550]  If you're jerky, I guess that could cause problems, too?
[55:16.070 --> 55:16.730]  Occasionally, I am.
[55:16.890 --> 55:17.370]  But, anyway.
[55:18.430 --> 55:23.210]  I've only managed to ride the subway once since I've been in New York.
[55:23.330 --> 55:26.170]  So, I don't really know about its overall operation.
[55:26.390 --> 55:26.490]  Again?
[55:26.610 --> 55:27.410]  I guess one...
[55:27.410 --> 55:30.930]  The last thing is, do you know of any way that you could have it read but not write?
[55:31.730 --> 55:33.890]  In the point of going through a swipe?
[55:34.130 --> 55:35.470]  Is there any method that you could...
[55:35.470 --> 55:36.250]  Just to make it read?
[55:36.410 --> 55:39.930]  Just to make it read but stop it from writing while using an actual turn stop.
[55:40.230 --> 55:41.110]  Oh, with this card?
[55:41.250 --> 55:41.870]  To make it not write?
[55:42.290 --> 55:44.070]  Well, if you were to, uh...
[55:44.070 --> 55:44.790]  If you were to...
[55:44.790 --> 55:48.530]  Probably, if you just put a piece of tape over the lower half of the strip...
[55:48.530 --> 55:49.290]  I mean, the...
[55:49.290 --> 55:50.790]  The synchronization track is here.
[55:50.950 --> 55:54.330]  If you just put a piece of tape over the lower half, it would probably...
[55:54.770 --> 56:08.350]  It would probably...
[56:12.980 --> 56:14.440]  Some cellophane tape does.
[56:14.580 --> 56:15.220]  I've tried that.
[56:16.220 --> 56:17.360]  Okay, there you go.
[56:17.720 --> 56:18.100]  Some.
[56:18.300 --> 56:20.420]  I haven't tried, like, specialty tapes.
[56:21.400 --> 56:24.720]  I just rode the Metro just once, as I said.
[56:24.880 --> 56:27.040]  It was a very short ride, too, so I don't...
[56:28.960 --> 56:32.260]  I really don't know about the actual physical particulars of it.
[56:32.380 --> 56:33.000]  I'm just...
[56:33.000 --> 56:38.960]  I just know about the use of magnetic stripes and this type of technology.
[56:40.440 --> 56:43.460]  Back there, in the green scarf.
[56:44.520 --> 56:50.280]  Have you taken two cards and done the same procedure for them to compare the pattern?
[56:50.500 --> 56:52.200]  Or are you just looking at one card?
[56:53.860 --> 56:55.580]  I'm just looking at this card right now.
[56:57.560 --> 56:59.180]  Has there been any...
[56:59.180 --> 57:06.300]  Has anyone done this method and compared two cards to see if it is actually a different pattern?
[57:08.340 --> 57:08.740]  Or...
[57:08.740 --> 57:10.020]  It's pretty fine.
[57:10.180 --> 57:15.400]  What we need to do is you get a card reader or device that can do that.
[57:15.500 --> 57:16.140]  There are some here.
[57:16.140 --> 57:17.540]  I'm not going to say who's got them.
[57:18.020 --> 57:20.120]  Because I'm not going to get personally involved in this.
[57:20.720 --> 57:25.980]  But the synchronization track is always the same.
[57:25.980 --> 57:28.800]  But the read-write part is, of course, it has to have different data.
[57:31.700 --> 57:45.620]  Since the close tolerance, the thickness of the card is such an issue, has anybody that you know have tried to, say, mount it on a piece of two-by-four and mill it off on some really fine sandpaper, like belt sand, just to thin it up a little bit?
[57:45.880 --> 57:47.440]  Give you a little bit of margin?
[57:47.440 --> 57:48.420]  To thin the card?
[57:49.640 --> 57:52.340]  I don't really follow the nature of the question.
[57:52.720 --> 57:55.180]  Do you know if anybody's tried, this is one for him.
[57:55.940 --> 57:58.900]  Make the card thinner and then put scotch tape over it?
[57:59.020 --> 57:59.860]  Not that I know of.
[57:59.940 --> 58:01.920]  It sounds like an interesting avenue of attack.
[58:06.200 --> 58:08.500]  A guy in the striped shirt in the back?
[58:09.520 --> 58:14.540]  What happens if you get 25,000 cards and put them back-to-back?
[58:14.820 --> 58:17.340]  What 25,000 cards and take on the card?
[58:17.720 --> 58:18.820]  Put them back-to-back.
[58:19.460 --> 58:27.600]  Two cards are too thick to fit through either the token booth computer swipe area or the turnstile swipe area.
[58:27.600 --> 58:30.760]  What about consecutively, really fast?
[58:31.520 --> 58:33.180]  That's an interesting thought.
[58:33.480 --> 58:35.820]  I believe that there's a time-out mechanism.
[58:35.820 --> 58:39.720]  We've got copies of the cubic manual lying around here.
[58:39.920 --> 58:52.720]  I believe there's a time-out mechanism that puts a default time of a minimum of five seconds between entry media, either tokens or the fare card.
[58:52.720 --> 58:55.820]  Don't passengers go through the turnstiles off the basket?
[58:56.380 --> 58:57.780]  Once every five seconds?
[58:58.060 --> 58:58.620]  Not really.
[59:02.460 --> 59:04.320]  The guy in this stripe on the wall again?
[59:05.460 --> 59:07.540]  I don't think it's, you know...
[59:07.540 --> 59:10.860]  I mean, back-to-back, it means, you know, one behind the other.
[59:11.760 --> 59:16.660]  Yeah, well, yeah, essentially the guy up front asked a similar question.
[59:16.660 --> 59:24.940]  There's a mechanism to set on the turnstiles the time between one entry and the next entry.
[59:25.120 --> 59:28.500]  And the default minimum time is, I believe, five seconds.
[59:29.500 --> 59:32.260]  It may be longer than that, but it's no less than that.
[59:32.260 --> 59:33.920]  In the green on the aisle.
[59:34.660 --> 59:36.280]  How does it compare to the BART card?
[59:36.680 --> 59:38.020]  How does this compare to the BART card?
[59:39.360 --> 59:43.060]  As I had said before, there's some fundamental differences.
[59:44.020 --> 59:47.360]  The BART card goes through a motorized drive.
[59:47.600 --> 59:53.360]  Therefore, it can use the standard Manchester coding because it knows what speed it's going through and self-clock and read and write.
[59:53.740 --> 01:00:03.640]  Since this one has to actually write to the card when you are swiping it through, they have to use a special synchronization track.
[01:00:04.420 --> 01:00:09.440]  And only with this top synchronization track is it possible for it to write.
[01:00:09.620 --> 01:00:10.360]  How many tracks?
[01:00:11.700 --> 01:00:13.840]  There's one data track, which is a wide track.
[01:00:14.040 --> 01:00:15.780]  It's about eight or nine millimeters wide.
[01:00:15.940 --> 01:00:21.060]  And then there's like a five millimeter wide synchronization track, which is on the top part.
[01:00:29.860 --> 01:00:35.380]  The Walden book sells really, really good plastic cards, and they're like glad to be able to get the stuff on them.
[01:00:35.620 --> 01:00:38.300]  But you can probably sort of have an edge right for one of those.
[01:00:39.600 --> 01:00:47.440]  I mean, if someone really wants to do this, I'm not encouraging it, but why can't you just use old cards?
[01:00:47.620 --> 01:00:48.700]  Yeah, you could get a...
[01:00:49.260 --> 01:00:50.020]  It'll be gone.
[01:00:50.300 --> 01:00:54.720]  Yeah, you could get a $5 card, use it for four rides, then you have a blank card to play with.
[01:00:57.380 --> 01:01:05.520]  Yeah, I've seen a magnetic track card writer, standard three track credit cards, that is a swipe throw manual.
[01:01:05.760 --> 01:01:06.660]  It's not motorized.
[01:01:07.160 --> 01:01:08.160]  A reader, right?
[01:01:08.500 --> 01:01:09.200]  No, writer.
[01:01:09.480 --> 01:01:09.860]  And writer.
[01:01:10.260 --> 01:01:15.020]  Okay, so it has to use a system, a coding system, where one of the tracks is actually a synchronization track.
[01:01:15.420 --> 01:01:16.420]  No, it didn't do that.
[01:01:16.520 --> 01:01:20.860]  It would work for standard credit cards without a synchronization track.
[01:01:22.440 --> 01:01:23.340]  It's possible.
[01:01:23.340 --> 01:01:27.620]  I mean, in a multi-track system, you could actually use the other track.
[01:01:27.860 --> 01:01:34.320]  This all uses Manchester encoding, so you could use the other track as synchronizing while you're writing to another track.
[01:01:34.400 --> 01:01:37.820]  But you can only write to one track at a time if you use that type of system.
[01:01:38.300 --> 01:01:39.680]  So that's theoretically possible.
[01:01:39.800 --> 01:01:40.680]  I've just never seen it done.
[01:01:40.840 --> 01:01:47.900]  Though I've seen magnetic cards, ATM cards, what have you, that do have a synchronization track, and it's nothing more than that.
[01:01:49.900 --> 01:01:57.480]  The standard, to answer that, the standard writers, by at least one company, with magnetics, it has a wheel inside, on the bottom of it.
[01:01:57.580 --> 01:01:59.120]  It slides apart through it, it turns the wheel.
[01:01:59.360 --> 01:02:00.920]  That's how it comes out there, the part of the tone.
[01:02:01.120 --> 01:02:02.420]  Well, it has to encode the wheel, sure.
[01:02:02.900 --> 01:02:03.440]  This is simpler.
[01:02:03.640 --> 01:02:04.280]  It's more...
[01:02:04.280 --> 01:02:05.620]  That uses the moving parts.
[01:02:05.760 --> 01:02:09.700]  This can go in a system that has no moving parts to break, or whatever, you know.
[01:02:09.700 --> 01:02:10.400]  How do they say that?
[01:02:12.820 --> 01:02:13.480]  Okay, Fred.
[01:02:14.240 --> 01:02:22.260]  Well, is there a difference between a card which has never had any value printed on it, and a card which has had all the value printed on it removed?
[01:02:22.780 --> 01:02:24.120]  Yeah, yeah, there is.
[01:02:24.760 --> 01:02:35.960]  First of all, the type that comes up on the screen when you do a, quote, analysis of it, is listed differently.
[01:02:36.140 --> 01:02:38.900]  So there's another field that's encoded with its original type.
[01:02:41.520 --> 01:02:48.860]  Secondly, there's some more indication that it's different because you have to do different things to them to add more money.
[01:02:49.420 --> 01:02:53.380]  A totally blank card, it's one menu item on the screen.
[01:02:53.380 --> 01:02:56.660]  A card that's gone back down to zero, it's a different menu item.
[01:02:58.800 --> 01:03:02.740]  I don't know whether any of that is useful information, but it's information.
[01:03:03.280 --> 01:03:04.700]  The gentleman in the gray beard.
[01:03:06.060 --> 01:03:12.000]  Are the cards when you have them before they've been used, sequential and serial numbers?
[01:03:12.500 --> 01:03:13.900]  Yeah, that's very interesting.
[01:03:14.140 --> 01:03:24.520]  The cards are sequential and serial number, but interestingly enough, the serial numbers in a batch of 100 do not start with either 00 or 01 as the last two digits.
[01:03:25.500 --> 01:03:30.480]  I've seen them a couple of times with the number 24 as the first digit.
[01:03:30.740 --> 01:03:34.880]  And then the last one is, of course, yeah, 123.
[01:03:35.740 --> 01:03:42.780]  Is there any indication on your diagnostic screens that there's a Hemming code or any kind of check digit?
[01:03:44.480 --> 01:03:47.080]  Well, okay, I'm not terribly technical.
[01:03:47.080 --> 01:03:49.940]  I don't know what a Hemming code is, but I do know what a check digit is.
[01:03:50.180 --> 01:03:53.460]  No, there's no independent indication of that.
[01:03:53.640 --> 01:04:05.500]  As I said, there's a couple of things on there that are kind of unusual that I've never seen anything, any different screens on, namely zone code and acceptance code.
[01:04:05.700 --> 01:04:13.940]  Acceptance code on all sorts of cards, employee, passenger, prevalued, passenger, not prevalued, but money added to it.
[01:04:14.100 --> 01:04:19.020]  No matter what the amount is, no matter which category it's in, acceptance code is always zero.
[01:04:19.020 --> 01:04:28.360]  Zone code, same thing except that for employees it's 33 zeros and certain Xs underneath on the next slide.
[01:04:28.620 --> 01:04:34.720]  For passengers it's 32 zeros followed by one, and the same Xs in exactly the same spaces underneath.
[01:04:35.400 --> 01:04:55.420]  The handout that I've got today, which on the front page says successful hack, insider's guide to MetroCard, light-breaking stuff on the top, has the screens as depicted on our type-up for distribution.
[01:04:59.440 --> 01:05:01.680]  I didn't work for BART, I want to make that clear.
[01:05:02.460 --> 01:05:04.120]  Okay, okay, okay.
[01:05:05.740 --> 01:05:11.180]  What was the reaction when you managed to successfully hack that part?
[01:05:11.220 --> 01:05:19.360]  And I'm wondering, in a related question, if you were creating, if you were for an MTA card, but not using it to actually run a train,
[01:05:23.740 --> 01:05:25.580]  do you, either of you have any idea...
[01:05:26.720 --> 01:05:27.440]  I don't...
[01:05:28.220 --> 01:05:39.980]  Well, the way those BART people, I don't want to be too nasty about any of this, but the way they looked at it is just that, because some of us knew how the system worked, we were dangerous and had to be arrested.
[01:05:40.480 --> 01:05:41.480]  I mean, it was that simple.
[01:05:42.480 --> 01:05:42.780]  I...
[01:05:43.520 --> 01:05:43.840]  It's...
[01:05:45.080 --> 01:05:46.300]  I mean, it's...
[01:05:47.560 --> 01:05:49.040]  I don't think they look at it too nicely.
[01:05:49.860 --> 01:05:50.320]  I mean, this is...
[01:05:50.320 --> 01:05:50.660]  Oh, this...
[01:05:50.660 --> 01:05:53.580]  It's a revenue, and there's people's jobs that are on the line.
[01:05:53.640 --> 01:05:55.960]  I mean, they take a funny view here.
[01:05:55.960 --> 01:05:56.880]  I think all over America.
[01:05:57.060 --> 01:05:57.980]  It seems...
[01:06:00.800 --> 01:06:06.220]  As far as legal ramifications with the New York City Transit Authority, okay, first for passengers.
[01:06:06.620 --> 01:06:12.940]  Uh, there's a law in New York State that states that certain rules of the TA have the force of law.
[01:06:13.320 --> 01:06:18.860]  And, unfortunately, anything I can think of that would cover that incident would get you in deep trouble.
[01:06:19.540 --> 01:06:26.520]  Uh, as far as why I'm wearing the balaclava this touches upon, uh, I'm in deep trouble.
[01:06:26.940 --> 01:06:27.920]  Or I could be.
[01:06:28.580 --> 01:06:33.900]  I'm not gonna get tremendously deep tonight, but, uh, still, I am wearing this.
[01:06:36.360 --> 01:06:39.740]  Even though you wouldn't be riding it, uh, you would still...
[01:06:39.740 --> 01:06:43.640]  It would probably still be considered theft of service, and possibly worse.
[01:06:44.000 --> 01:06:49.060]  Uh, there's also a law in New York State against hacking and phone-freaking.
[01:06:50.000 --> 01:06:54.480]  Uh, about four rows in from the middle, about three rows from the back.
[01:07:05.280 --> 01:07:07.640]  Okay, uh, I'll address the second half first.
[01:07:07.680 --> 01:07:10.860]  Is this, uh, improving tracking of individuals?
[01:07:10.860 --> 01:07:12.940]  Uh, so far, not really.
[01:07:13.200 --> 01:07:17.860]  As, uh, someone in the front row had a question earlier about, uh, student cards.
[01:07:18.140 --> 01:07:32.560]  For any sort of, uh, reduced, uh, fare, uh, uh, ride, there might be tracking of individuals, because the reduced fare, um, privilege is, uh, intrinsic to the individual.
[01:07:32.560 --> 01:07:37.860]  In other words, you get it because of age, you get it because of high school or lower grade student status.
[01:07:38.300 --> 01:07:43.740]  Uh, so there is some interest in tracking you for that, limited, uh, wise.
[01:07:44.300 --> 01:07:48.060]  And, uh, even though I'm pretty libertarian, I can understand that.
[01:07:48.200 --> 01:07:52.060]  If you don't want to be tracked, you know, spend the money on a full fare card.
[01:07:52.060 --> 01:07:58.360]  So far, as far as full fare cards go, there is no provision for tracking an individual.
[01:07:58.580 --> 01:08:01.200]  The cards are attainable totally anonymously.
[01:08:01.560 --> 01:08:03.620]  Transit authority only accepts cash.
[01:08:03.780 --> 01:08:05.240]  What's more anonymous than that?
[01:08:06.120 --> 01:08:10.260]  And, uh, there are no moves to go towards an individual card.
[01:08:10.260 --> 01:08:19.700]  In fact, there was some talk when the, uh, MetroCard was originally proposed and introduced, that you would have an intrinsic, a card intrinsic to yourself.
[01:08:19.900 --> 01:08:27.600]  So that if it was stolen, you could call up a central number and say, Hi, I'm Joe Schmoe, my card was stolen, stop it, refund my money.
[01:08:27.840 --> 01:08:29.340]  They decide not to go with that.
[01:08:30.120 --> 01:08:32.800]  Uh, what was the first, the other part of that question?
[01:08:36.270 --> 01:08:46.330]  Oh, yeah, uh, as far as a card's uniqueness, uh, as I stated before, there are three things that we know are on the card, both printed and probably on the magnetic stripe.
[01:08:46.690 --> 01:08:54.430]  The expiration date, which is not unique to a given card, maybe one-third of all cards, one-fourth, one-sixth, whatever.
[01:08:55.090 --> 01:08:58.510]  The batch number, which is unique to every 100 cards.
[01:08:58.610 --> 01:09:01.810]  And the serial number, which is completely unique to that card.
[01:09:04.090 --> 01:09:05.350]  On the aisle with the glasses.
[01:09:10.140 --> 01:09:21.440]  Well, that, that's, uh, that, they caught me because, uh, because somebody, uh, because an undercover cop, uh, got them involved in, uh, in a sting operation.
[01:09:21.720 --> 01:09:27.100]  And basically, uh, was interested, pretended he was an employee of, uh, or knew an employee of, uh, someone else.
[01:09:27.260 --> 01:09:28.400]  And just, it was a set-up.
[01:09:28.580 --> 01:09:29.320]  It was entrapment.
[01:09:31.440 --> 01:09:33.220]  So, uh, no, he wouldn't be caught.
[01:09:33.380 --> 01:09:40.060]  And this, uh, this thing about a computer saying something about this other guy getting arrested, that's just, uh, that, that's a snow job.
[01:09:40.200 --> 01:09:44.160]  Because, uh, I think they're just saying that just so, uh, people would be scared on trying it.
[01:09:44.740 --> 01:09:48.140]  But, I mean, the way, the way things are in this town, I don't, I wouldn't try anything.
[01:09:50.700 --> 01:09:51.440]  Would not.
[01:09:54.380 --> 01:09:59.560]  Uh, I'd just like to add that I think that's a pretty good attitude, uh, towards the transit authority.
[01:09:59.680 --> 01:10:00.680]  It pays to be paranoid.
[01:10:01.620 --> 01:10:02.740]  Any other questions?
[01:10:06.400 --> 01:10:08.780]  What happened in the manner did the successful happen?
[01:10:09.140 --> 01:10:11.000]  Uh, it was reported in the newspapers.
[01:10:11.000 --> 01:10:11.900]  He was arrested.
[01:10:14.020 --> 01:10:24.640]  So, like I said, like I said, uh, in, in, in the, uh, guide that I, the handout for today, uh, as Bill SF says, I don't think the computer is what did it.
[01:10:24.700 --> 01:10:27.600]  I think it was probably some cop just hanging out by the turnstiles.
[01:10:27.740 --> 01:10:32.400]  Notice they took something out of his pocket that wasn't a MetroCard, put through the, uh, turnstile, and got through.
[01:10:32.980 --> 01:10:34.880]  In fact, I'd like to interject here.
[01:10:35.060 --> 01:10:41.840]  This is how, uh, there's other people that were, uh, uh, were arrested, uh, previously with doing BART.
[01:10:42.020 --> 01:10:46.520]  And the reason why they were arrested is because they were using irregular cards, using, making up their own cards.
[01:10:47.120 --> 01:10:57.240]  I mean, just, I mean, why, why people don't do the obvious thing if they want, if they want to defraud a transit system and use an actual card is beyond me.
[01:10:58.460 --> 01:11:01.260]  I mean, this seems, I mean, it's a lot easier to get the real thing.
[01:11:03.760 --> 01:11:05.780]  Do you remember when it was, when the guy got caught?
[01:11:06.300 --> 01:11:08.220]  The guy that was caught at 34th Street?
[01:11:08.580 --> 01:11:12.560]  Yeah, uh, offhand, it was sometime around March or April.
[01:11:14.140 --> 01:11:25.800]  Uh, the, if you want to do a search of periodicals, uh, the Daily News, I know I definitely saw it in the New York Times, might also be a, a good source, but definitely the Daily News here in New York.
[01:11:31.970 --> 01:11:41.970]  Would, uh, catching the card on certain cards prevent writing, although it would allow it to read depending on the coding of the encoding of the cards?
[01:11:45.550 --> 01:11:54.790]  I'm, I'm thinking if the person that programmed this had any brains at all, it would, uh, it would have some way of seeing that it actually did, uh, deduct the card.
[01:11:55.850 --> 01:11:59.730]  There would be another head that would be, uh, trailing the one that was doing the writing.
[01:11:59.730 --> 01:12:03.490]  that would, uh, it would be a right head and then there would be reading to verify that it actually happened.
[01:12:03.610 --> 01:12:04.770]  And if not, swipe it through again.
[01:12:05.290 --> 01:12:08.690]  That's probably why you can swipe it through again, go to another turnstile.
[01:12:08.810 --> 01:12:11.710]  So you swipe it through, it's already done the thing with the card, but it didn't verify right.
[01:12:12.450 --> 01:12:14.790]  So, if, if you swipe it through again, everything's fine.
[01:12:14.790 --> 01:12:18.090]  But if you go to another turnstile and swipe it through again, it's going to deduct again.
[01:12:18.550 --> 01:12:21.730]  Deduct again and verify that it deducted again, and that's why a person loses the money.
[01:12:25.730 --> 01:12:27.290]  So, no, I don't do any good.
[01:12:29.070 --> 01:12:35.170]  The five-second delay makes me think that maybe it is writing to a central processor of some sort or another.
[01:12:35.350 --> 01:12:41.450]  In that five seconds, does anybody try taking a card and swiping it through two right next to each other very fast?
[01:12:42.210 --> 01:12:44.370]  I don't know if that could be physically possible.
[01:12:45.310 --> 01:12:46.910]  Five seconds is a long time.
[01:12:48.910 --> 01:12:49.310]  Yeah.
[01:12:51.330 --> 01:12:53.390]  Why would someone want to swipe a card through twice?
[01:12:53.490 --> 01:12:55.210]  I mean, what is trying to be...
[01:13:02.330 --> 01:13:06.290]  Well, I think the five-second delay is so people can get it safely through the turnstile.
[01:13:06.690 --> 01:13:09.590]  And if you really want to ride the metro free, just jump the bloody thing.
[01:13:11.770 --> 01:13:14.830]  A little commentary about delays and stuff on turnstiles.
[01:13:15.390 --> 01:13:16.290]  Well, a lot of people don't know.
[01:13:16.390 --> 01:13:19.190]  This is totally unrelated but still useful.
[01:13:20.710 --> 01:13:26.010]  On the new turnstiles, if you put a token in and wait over 30 seconds, goodbye token.
[01:13:26.310 --> 01:13:26.530]  Okay?
[01:13:27.090 --> 01:13:33.030]  So, all the days of waiting for your train to come after putting your token in are gone.
[01:13:33.030 --> 01:13:35.130]  If you put a token in, go through.
[01:13:36.970 --> 01:13:38.470]  Don't wait around, you'll lose it.
[01:13:39.110 --> 01:13:40.890]  And the brown four rows back?
[01:13:47.280 --> 01:13:48.000]  Yeah.
[01:13:49.020 --> 01:13:49.740]  Yeah.
[01:13:55.100 --> 01:13:56.960]  I concur on that theory.
[01:13:57.680 --> 01:13:59.080]  Beard and white hat.
[01:13:59.880 --> 01:14:04.780]  What will happen if some people at this conference hack the metro card?
[01:14:06.900 --> 01:14:08.300]  They come after me.
[01:14:09.760 --> 01:14:12.020]  If people here hack the metro card...
[01:14:12.020 --> 01:14:16.300]  Well, as I'm fond of saying, the best hack is an undetected hack.
[01:14:16.960 --> 01:14:20.120]  Those people become very happy and save a lot of money.
[01:14:21.120 --> 01:14:28.980]  If they decide to go public, I think eventually the transit authority and the transit police will do some investigating.
[01:14:31.020 --> 01:14:34.060]  That's why I'm being only of limited helpfulness.
[01:14:34.200 --> 01:14:35.720]  Not that I don't want to be of more.
[01:14:35.720 --> 01:14:42.240]  I'm curious myself, but I like sleeping in a large room, not a 9x12 cell.
[01:14:43.460 --> 01:14:51.020]  The question I have to put forward is if anybody wants to hack the system, would they actually do it to save $1.25 per ride?
[01:14:51.180 --> 01:14:53.440]  Isn't that really, really, really cheap anyways?
[01:14:54.340 --> 01:14:55.520]  I mean, it's...
[01:14:55.520 --> 01:15:01.320]  I didn't do anything with BART because I wanted to, you know...
[01:15:01.320 --> 01:15:03.260]  I couldn't afford to ride BART.
[01:15:03.380 --> 01:15:04.200]  I mean, this is ridiculous.
[01:15:06.780 --> 01:15:08.480]  That's still speculation.
[01:15:11.240 --> 01:15:12.780]  $1.50 to go anywhere in New York?
[01:15:13.840 --> 01:15:14.960]  It's not a bad deal.
[01:15:15.200 --> 01:15:25.700]  Yeah, eventually there is some talk of going over to zoned fares and to a system whereby you'd get a MetroCard that would be less on weekends, less at nights.
[01:15:26.020 --> 01:15:32.260]  But that's going to be a while until all 469 stations have got MetroCard turnstiles.
[01:15:35.100 --> 01:15:35.600]  Up here?
[01:15:36.000 --> 01:15:40.660]  At that point, they'll move to a system where you have to swipe a card on New York as well.
[01:15:41.240 --> 01:15:44.880]  If they go to a zoned system, they would almost definitely have to, wouldn't they?
[01:15:46.700 --> 01:15:52.100]  If they go to a system whereby it's timed, which actually for New York isn't an old thing.
[01:15:52.100 --> 01:15:58.400]  For anybody who has access to the NYU library, which I did many years ago when I was younger.
[01:15:59.800 --> 01:16:01.140]  They're giving away my identity.
[01:16:01.440 --> 01:16:13.520]  There are some books there on the subways which will tell you in the 20s that the system during rush hour, there are two sets of turnstiles and that the railroad clerks of those days would turn them on before rush hour.
[01:16:13.520 --> 01:16:15.880]  One would take two pennies, one would take a nickel.
[01:16:18.500 --> 01:16:22.620]  And so the idea of peak and off-peak pricing is not new.
[01:16:25.180 --> 01:16:28.520]  I think it's a very good idea from a management point of view because it will encourage...
[01:16:30.380 --> 01:16:34.320]  You might as well charge very little when it's not full because it will tend to fill it up anyways.
[01:16:36.680 --> 01:16:44.680]  But also, the only thing that I find very shocking after living in Europe for a number of years is the fact that they use turnstiles at all.
[01:16:44.740 --> 01:16:45.960]  I think that's a safety problem.
[01:16:46.780 --> 01:16:47.640]  Yeah, it is.
[01:16:47.840 --> 01:16:50.760]  I've seen what I like to call German tourist disease.
[01:16:51.300 --> 01:16:59.920]  I believe it's in Munich, but I'm not sure, never having been to Germany, that what you do is you buy a ticket with a certain time on it and just enter.
[01:17:00.040 --> 01:17:01.620]  The turnstiles are only for counting.
[01:17:02.320 --> 01:17:05.420]  Occasionally, the police will get on a car and ask everybody to show your ticket.
[01:17:05.500 --> 01:17:09.500]  If you have an expired ticket, you have to pay a fine on the spot or they haul you away.
[01:17:10.460 --> 01:17:16.140]  German tourist disease is when you come to the United States, you buy your token, you stick it in your pocket, you head right for the turnstile.
[01:17:16.640 --> 01:17:17.000]  Ouch.
[01:17:18.960 --> 01:17:20.540]  I have seen that numerous times.
[01:17:20.660 --> 01:17:22.780]  I could tell Germans miles away if they do that.
[01:17:23.300 --> 01:17:26.780]  Oh, one other thing is that probably Germans get on board the back of a bus.
[01:17:27.820 --> 01:17:29.620]  Why do Germans board the back of the bus?
[01:17:29.620 --> 01:17:30.880]  I'm being a straight man.
[01:17:31.020 --> 01:17:32.420]  Why do Germans board the back of a bus?
[01:17:32.800 --> 01:17:33.560]  Why do they do that?
[01:17:34.000 --> 01:17:35.960]  I'm just saying, is that another German tourist?
[01:17:35.980 --> 01:17:36.740]  I've never seen that.
[01:17:36.960 --> 01:17:39.220]  I thought you either had a joke or a comment.
[01:17:39.300 --> 01:17:40.240]  No, no, no, no, no.
[01:17:41.440 --> 01:17:47.240]  What I'm just saying is that usually in Europe, you do buy the ticket and the ticket is with you.
[01:17:47.300 --> 01:17:48.900]  You don't have to show it unless you're asked for it.
[01:17:49.600 --> 01:17:52.440]  Except on certain buses, you ask for the ticket up front of the bus.
[01:17:53.380 --> 01:17:55.540]  But it's just a different system of doing it.
[01:17:55.700 --> 01:17:58.860]  It's kind of an honor system, but an honor system that is enforced.
[01:17:58.880 --> 01:18:06.080]  And if you are caught breaking the code of honor, you get a fine, which is equivalent to about $50 or something.
[01:18:06.080 --> 01:18:09.140]  Yeah, the fines are fairly heavy.
[01:18:11.240 --> 01:18:12.480]  Any other questions?
[01:18:12.500 --> 01:18:13.620]  In the white, in the middle.
[01:18:13.620 --> 01:18:21.520]  Yeah, just to come up, for example, if the library card systems...
[01:18:22.240 --> 01:18:24.900]  NYU buy their card readers and things from...
[01:18:27.710 --> 01:18:33.710]  So you buy a card at Columbia, you get $10 credit on it, you can't use it at NYU, and vice versa.
[01:18:34.190 --> 01:18:38.850]  I do want to bet that New York is at least somewhat intelligent.
[01:18:39.630 --> 01:18:41.310]  They already have its own system set up.
[01:18:41.490 --> 01:18:47.230]  They can determine which boroughs and which stations are generating what amount of money and what time of the day.
[01:18:47.230 --> 01:19:02.430]  And if you try to hack this system, you should be aware of that, because if you live in a certain area, and they detect 100 turnstiles, but only $90 worth of money, because they're going to know that you're at that turnstile.
[01:19:02.530 --> 01:19:04.070]  They're going to set up a state there.
[01:19:04.230 --> 01:19:05.530]  So you better know.
[01:19:05.650 --> 01:19:07.190]  I see you smiling up there already.
[01:19:07.530 --> 01:19:09.230]  It never happened to me, but it's the same...
[01:19:09.230 --> 01:19:12.970]  You better know that they already have the zone system set up, but it's not difficult to do.
[01:19:13.250 --> 01:19:17.310]  I mean, he's implied the zone system already is set up, because it marks on the card where you...
[01:19:17.310 --> 01:19:30.130]  That's an interesting thought, but I'd like to point out that you can buy MetroCards at some newsstands and other outlets, and like tokens, so far there's no restriction that you have to use a MetroCard where you buy it.
[01:19:30.130 --> 01:19:33.550]  No, but the code, they've painted a card.
[01:19:33.750 --> 01:19:35.310]  And they know where you bought the card.
[01:19:35.570 --> 01:19:36.630]  It's just like a lottery ticket.
[01:19:37.050 --> 01:19:40.170]  They know you bought it at the grocery diner or whatever.
[01:19:40.530 --> 01:19:41.290]  So you're going to know where you bought the card.
[01:19:41.290 --> 01:19:42.490]  The batch number is going to track that.
[01:19:42.630 --> 01:19:42.910]  Right.
[01:19:44.210 --> 01:19:45.850]  Yeah, they know exactly.
[01:19:45.870 --> 01:19:48.690]  Each code has its own motion security number.
[01:19:48.770 --> 01:19:50.750]  Yes, the batch numbers are tracked.
[01:19:50.750 --> 01:19:55.750]  You know, exactly where you bought that card, you know, which code or which location you want to find?
[01:19:56.670 --> 01:20:01.770]  It's not difficult to... The university has it set up with their silly copy machines.
[01:20:06.110 --> 01:20:07.010]  Anything else?
[01:20:08.890 --> 01:20:16.430]  Is there an MTA regulation on the third-party sales to MetroCard?
[01:20:16.530 --> 01:20:22.550]  That is, if I buy a MetroCard for $10 and I use $5, working on yourself, is that...?
[01:20:23.230 --> 01:20:27.630]  As far as I know, unlike tokens, there's no prohibition.
[01:20:28.050 --> 01:20:29.930]  But I may be totally wrong.
[01:20:30.070 --> 01:20:31.570]  I would not be surprised if I was.
[01:20:33.770 --> 01:20:37.130]  There is a prohibition, believe it or not, against selling tokens to a third party.
[01:20:37.250 --> 01:20:40.050]  You're not allowed to sell tokens to a third party.
[01:20:41.770 --> 01:20:42.750]  Which is kind of interesting.
[01:20:42.910 --> 01:20:43.730]  You're not allowed to sell them back.
[01:20:43.830 --> 01:20:45.150]  You're not allowed to sell them to a third party.
[01:20:45.530 --> 01:20:46.970]  I guess that leaves giving them away.
[01:20:48.970 --> 01:20:49.950]  Anything else?
[01:20:52.210 --> 01:20:52.770]  Sale?
[01:20:52.970 --> 01:20:53.350]  Sale?
[01:20:53.350 --> 01:20:57.430]  Sale is when you give something to someone in consideration for something of value.
[01:20:57.570 --> 01:20:58.110]  Usually money.
[01:21:02.880 --> 01:21:04.500]  I guess that's about it.
[01:21:04.640 --> 01:21:05.920]  I would like to thank everybody.
[01:21:06.700 --> 01:21:10.700]  If you want more information, we've got the handout that I wrote up.
[01:21:12.020 --> 01:21:15.360]  And you can either contact my brother or his girlfriend.
[01:21:16.180 --> 01:21:18.560]  They're the people who did the documentation for this.
[01:21:18.780 --> 01:21:19.700]  Or Emmanuel.
[01:21:20.080 --> 01:21:21.840]  And they'll be able to get in touch with me.
[01:21:22.060 --> 01:21:22.420]  Thank you.
[01:21:22.420 --> 01:21:22.440]  Thank you.
[01:21:23.080 --> 01:21:23.480]  Thank you.