[00:02.300 --> 00:19.160]  Um... Homestead, Pennsylvania is a small suburb out of Pittsburgh, and it's affectionately known as the Rust Belt because the entire economy of the area relied on steel manufacture to sort of sustain itself.
[00:19.460 --> 00:22.500]  And in the 80s, that industry went away.
[00:23.120 --> 00:35.100]  And that's when I was born, so there was no way my parents were going to be able to afford to hook me up with a computer or any cool gadgets or anything like that.
[00:35.260 --> 00:53.500]  I mean, it took probably 15, 16 years for Moore's Law to make it possible for my family to get the computer that I wanted, even though I put it on my Christmas list every year up until that point.
[00:54.580 --> 01:18.940]  Um... What was easily available to me was pencils and paper, and another sort of aspect of the area that I come from is that gang culture started to become very, very popular, and that was a scene that I obviously was not able to fit in with, and there were shootings outside my house all the time.
[01:18.940 --> 01:26.040]  When I was five, I saw, um, uh, the police shoot a guy in the back of my, in my backyard.
[01:26.660 --> 01:31.360]  Um, when I was, uh, 12, a girl got killed in the alley behind my house.
[01:31.580 --> 01:35.200]  We moved, uh, from the first place where I saw the guy get shot.
[01:35.520 --> 01:41.400]  We moved away and, um, you know, a few blocks away, and somebody got killed in the back of my other house.
[01:41.400 --> 01:44.800]  Um, and then shortly after that, my next-door neighbor got shot.
[01:44.940 --> 01:48.040]  So, I was afraid to leave the house.
[01:48.940 --> 02:09.240]  No computer, no online access, lots of pencils and paper, and I basically just escaped in my room, um, drawing constantly, um, trying to figure out how to, uh, basically make what I see in my head appear on paper.
[02:09.240 --> 02:13.760]  Which I'm still not successful at, but it's getting closer.
[02:14.600 --> 02:19.860]  Um, uh, and I also escaped in, in comic books.
[02:19.960 --> 02:25.300]  I really, uh, enjoyed the idea of, uh, telling stories on paper with words and pictures.
[02:25.320 --> 02:26.620]  It was kind of magical to me.
[02:26.840 --> 02:36.220]  Um, you know, you look at one image, and then the next image, and there's a passage of time that intuitively takes place, um, without any sort of expositional dialogue.
[02:36.220 --> 02:38.720]  Like, you know, five minutes later, ten minutes later, anything like that.
[02:38.860 --> 02:40.760]  Like, your brain just can process this information.
[02:40.760 --> 02:50.860]  And it's a, it's a communication, uh, communicational tool that sort of has been around, uh, since, like, cave paintings and stuff like that.
[02:50.980 --> 02:55.060]  I mean, uh, we've been telling stories through pictures, uh, forever.
[02:55.880 --> 03:05.580]  Um, at a certain point, I, in high school, um, I started getting a little bit better at, um, drawing and making comics.
[03:05.600 --> 03:08.780]  And I ended up going to art school, um, not too far from here, actually.
[03:09.400 --> 03:16.940]  Um, and really started to pursue the idea of telling stories with pictures and words.
[03:16.940 --> 03:28.100]  And, thankfully, I kind of bet my life on the idea that comics could be considered, um, a, a viable form of literature.
[03:28.640 --> 03:34.400]  That, um, could express any sort of subject matter.
[03:34.800 --> 03:42.840]  It didn't have to be, like, the superhero shit with, uh, guys in tights and flying around punching bad guys through walls and stuff like that.
[03:42.840 --> 03:56.560]  I mean, I kind of like some of that stuff too, but, um, in Japan, there are comics, manga, that, um, explore any sort of subject matter you can imagine.
[03:56.560 --> 04:07.160]  There are, there are manga for housewives who, you know, regularly go to the grocery store and that's what the story's about.
[04:07.160 --> 04:11.860]  And there are manga about fishermen and all sorts of subject matter.
[04:11.860 --> 04:29.860]  Um, this idea is catching on in, uh, America and sort of in tandem with my coming of age and, um, actually developing the ability to, to draw comics in a, in a reasonable way.
[04:29.860 --> 04:48.460]  Um, bookstores and, um, academia have even, to a certain extent, um, accepted the idea of comics as more than just escapist fare for, um, old dudes who live in their basement or, in their mom's basement or whatnot.
[04:48.460 --> 05:01.820]  Um, when I was about 20, 21, 22 years old, I, I really started submitting my work to different companies to, uh, to try and get some work professionally drawing comics.
[05:01.820 --> 05:03.560]  It's what, it's what I've always wanted to do.
[05:04.320 --> 05:07.200]  And, uh, like I said, I sort of bet my life on it.
[05:07.380 --> 05:09.900]  So, we'll, we'll see how that ends up in a couple of years.
[05:10.280 --> 05:16.200]  Um, and I, I kind of got rejected from most of the publishers.
[05:16.360 --> 05:21.820]  Just the stuff that I was doing, I, it just, the, um, the writing didn't catch up with the artwork.
[05:22.480 --> 05:27.680]  Um, and, so the stories were a little juvenile and just not very good.
[05:27.980 --> 05:33.440]  Um, I sent a lot of the stuff to various cartoonists who I, whose work I appreciated.
[05:34.060 --> 05:35.820]  Um, just for some sort of feedback.
[05:37.200 --> 05:40.720]  Figure out what the heck I was doing wrong because I was trying my best, blah, blah, blah.
[05:41.200 --> 05:43.860]  Um, and I started getting some interesting responses.
[05:44.660 --> 05:52.000]  Um, one of those responses was, uh, from, uh, this man named Harvey Picar, of, uh, American Splendor, Splendor fame.
[05:54.840 --> 05:59.060]  Um, and, uh, yeah, he, he, uh, passed away Monday.
[05:59.520 --> 06:01.120]  Um, which really sucks.
[06:01.680 --> 06:07.720]  Uh, and, uh, this is, this is right after the American Splendor movie came out.
[06:08.400 --> 06:12.620]  Um, so he was at, at sort of the height of his fame.
[06:13.940 --> 06:16.960]  And I was looking through some old American Splendor comics.
[06:16.960 --> 06:19.680]  I've appreciated his work pretty much my entire life.
[06:20.640 --> 06:25.020]  And I thought, uh, the, the artwork was lacking in a lot of those strips.
[06:26.180 --> 06:33.340]  Um, and, uh, on one of these, uh, American Splendor comics I had, it, it was like a facsimile.
[06:33.660 --> 06:39.620]  The cover was like a facsimile Time Magazine cover with a portrait of his face.
[06:39.620 --> 06:40.880]  Not drawn, it was a photograph.
[06:40.880 --> 06:48.920]  And you know when you subscribe to a magazine, there's that, like, uh, mechanical type that has your subscription information, like, planted on it?
[06:49.060 --> 06:57.100]  Well, it had his, like a faux version of his subscription information, like his name and address on the cover of this thing.
[06:57.100 --> 07:02.020]  And I was, like, wondering, you know, you know, is this address still valid?
[07:02.020 --> 07:06.240]  Or did this guy move to, to a castle in Beverly Hills or something like that?
[07:06.820 --> 07:07.060]  Yeah.
[07:07.060 --> 07:22.940]  So, uh, just through my routine of sending my failed comic strips to various cartoonists whose work I appreciated, um, I started sending, uh, my strips to that address.
[07:22.940 --> 07:26.520]  Not really expecting that it was his real address or anything like that.
[07:26.720 --> 07:44.520]  And I didn't hear back for a while, um, and that after months and months of just sending maybe 50, 60 packs of strips, like, every month, um, I got a phone call from PCAR.
[07:45.340 --> 07:48.520]  And, um, like I said, this is after the movie came out.
[07:48.680 --> 08:01.720]  And I had to drag some friends to go check out this flick because, you know, it didn't get any sort of, um, any sort of, uh, commercial distribution or anything like that.
[08:01.820 --> 08:07.320]  And it was, there was no trailer on TV for this flick, so my friends really never heard of it.
[08:07.320 --> 08:10.000]  And it was a tough sale to get them to come hang out with me.
[08:10.080 --> 08:11.420]  I didn't really want to see it alone.
[08:11.600 --> 08:12.860]  I didn't want to be that guy in the theater.
[08:15.340 --> 08:18.120]  Um, and so I brought a couple of buddies along.
[08:18.420 --> 08:23.460]  And when PCAR called my house, he has a very, very distinct, gruff voice.
[08:24.820 --> 08:28.380]  And I have a buddy who could do a mean PCAR impersonation.
[08:29.100 --> 08:35.700]  And I thought to myself, you know, if this is you, HB, calling me, my buddy's name is HB.
[08:36.100 --> 08:41.320]  If this is HB calling me, this is the most vicious prank that you can pull on me.
[08:41.920 --> 08:44.340]  Because, you know, I wanted to draw comics so much.
[08:46.040 --> 08:48.960]  And I didn't believe him at first when he was on the phone.
[08:48.960 --> 08:51.080]  And I expressed this to a certain extent.
[08:51.080 --> 08:52.980]  And he's like, what the hell are you talking about?
[08:53.860 --> 08:54.780]  What can I do?
[08:58.000 --> 09:01.480]  So, you know, obviously I believed him at that point.
[09:01.660 --> 09:10.680]  And we corresponded for like a year before any real actual work came down the pike.
[09:13.560 --> 09:19.580]  And eventually we started putting a project together called American Splendor Our Movie Year.
[09:19.580 --> 09:26.000]  And I drew like 28 pages of this like 200-page anthology book.
[09:26.700 --> 09:28.100]  And it was very cool.
[09:28.400 --> 09:30.600]  At first I did like four pages.
[09:31.040 --> 09:38.120]  And towards the end of the project, they needed a quick 25-page story done in like under a month.
[09:38.840 --> 09:44.740]  And when you draw comics, you know, the standard size is fairly small.
[09:44.740 --> 09:49.160]  But the original pages that you draw on are pretty huge.
[09:49.340 --> 09:51.920]  At least twice the size of the final printed page.
[09:52.220 --> 09:55.600]  So the work that I was doing was about 11 by 17.
[09:56.780 --> 09:59.040]  That's a lot of pencil mileage as they call it.
[09:59.980 --> 10:02.540]  And it takes a long time to do a page of comics.
[10:03.140 --> 10:10.780]  So after doing the Our Movie Year stuff, he and I set to work on a long-form graphic novel called Macedonia.
[10:11.800 --> 10:19.540]  That, you know, it received some mixed reviews because, I mean, the subject matter is a little complex and crazy.
[10:19.980 --> 10:24.340]  It's about the geopolitical destabilization in the Balkan region, if you're interested.
[10:26.780 --> 10:35.940]  And, you know, he adapted this work from a woman's thesis at University of California at Berkeley.
[10:35.940 --> 10:40.760]  So it's very, very heady, to say the least.
[10:41.060 --> 10:51.180]  Anyway, when I was working on that project, I sort of ran out of all DVD audio commentaries that I was listening to.
[10:51.180 --> 10:52.220]  I memorized everything.
[10:52.220 --> 10:56.800]  I was tired of every piece of music that I had access to.
[10:58.100 --> 11:02.140]  I really didn't mess around with, like, the peer-to-peer stuff at that time or anything like that.
[11:02.200 --> 11:03.960]  I didn't, I really didn't know about it.
[11:07.040 --> 11:08.760]  Podcasting really started to become a thing.
[11:10.000 --> 11:12.500]  And I was, do you guys remember Tech TV?
[11:12.780 --> 11:14.000]  Rest in Peace, Tech TV.
[11:14.240 --> 11:16.220]  I used to love that stuff.
[11:16.260 --> 11:18.500]  And then, you know, that channel went away.
[11:18.500 --> 11:22.800]  And then the people from Tech TV, like Leo Laporte, they started podcasting.
[11:22.920 --> 11:25.280]  So that's how I was introduced to that idea.
[11:25.760 --> 11:28.960]  And I happened upon Off The Hook.
[11:30.600 --> 11:33.600]  You know, it was tagged under hacking or something like that.
[11:35.160 --> 11:39.660]  And hacking is always something that I've romanticized in my mind.
[11:41.320 --> 11:43.340]  It's something I thought about.
[11:43.540 --> 11:50.840]  And the ideas that I had about hacking were certainly ideas that were put in my head by mass media.
[11:51.980 --> 12:00.720]  That movie where Ferris Bueller, you know, hacks into the government's computers in NORAD or something like that.
[12:00.720 --> 12:03.300]  And zero cool and all that bullshit.
[12:05.720 --> 12:11.100]  When I came across Off The Hook, I literally was hooked.
[12:12.760 --> 12:18.960]  And I ended up listening to the entire 20 plus year archive of that show.
[12:18.960 --> 12:26.780]  Which, if you have time available to do this, you know, because I'm sitting there drawing comics all day.
[12:27.740 --> 12:30.560]  The Macedonia graphic novel is like 150 pages.
[12:31.020 --> 12:32.480]  It took me 14 months to do.
[12:32.660 --> 12:40.000]  And in that 14 months, I was able to listen to all of the Off The Hook archives.
[12:41.680 --> 12:44.000]  And if you listen to it all...
[12:44.740 --> 12:47.800]  You can fast forward through the fundraiser episodes.
[12:48.140 --> 12:49.640]  But don't tell them I said that.
[12:52.720 --> 13:02.840]  There are some epic, sprawling stories that take place within that show if you listen to it in a linear fashion.
[13:04.940 --> 13:10.040]  And so much so that there is high drama that took place on this show.
[13:11.060 --> 13:14.640]  It's my belief that show should be archived like in the Smithsonian.
[13:14.640 --> 13:24.840]  I feel that it is so important because it really captures a moment in time where just the government was so...
[13:25.480 --> 13:32.060]  Not that there are any more, you know, in the know nowadays, but they were so clueless back then.
[13:32.060 --> 13:33.800]  And it's laughable.
[13:34.960 --> 13:40.100]  And, you know, just you could follow the history of high technology through that show.
[13:40.380 --> 13:50.060]  There was like an episode where Emmanuel was like, you know, if you go to your local community college, sign up for one class and you will have access to the Internet.
[13:50.400 --> 13:51.560]  It's amazing.
[13:54.540 --> 14:06.960]  And just, you know, by his privileged position as being publisher of 2600, he obviously had access to some really interesting personalities within the community.
[14:08.320 --> 14:08.880]  And...
[14:08.880 --> 14:11.260]  Have you guys listened to a lot of that show?
[14:11.500 --> 14:12.040]  Am I...
[14:12.040 --> 14:13.860]  Am I telling something...
[14:13.860 --> 14:15.200]  You got something that you already know?
[14:16.900 --> 14:21.560]  I was fascinated by the stories of like, Bernie S.
[14:21.880 --> 14:24.300]  Where, you know, he is on the show for years.
[14:25.200 --> 14:29.120]  And then eventually, he's like pinched by the cops.
[14:29.840 --> 14:34.300]  And he's not on the show, you know, that week or whatever.
[14:34.300 --> 14:37.960]  And then he's on the show again, talking about his upcoming case.
[14:38.320 --> 14:39.980]  And then he's gone again.
[14:40.360 --> 14:41.900]  And then he's in jail.
[14:42.520 --> 14:43.740]  And then he...
[14:43.740 --> 14:59.900]  They figure out an elaborate way for Bernie to call Emmanuel's house and have the number automatically forwarded to WBAI because it's sort of against the rules for Bernie to call the radio station to be broadcast.
[14:59.900 --> 15:01.940]  But that's like a tricky workaround.
[15:02.480 --> 15:05.120]  And he was like on the show from jail.
[15:05.120 --> 15:12.300]  And you heard like a little beep every couple of minutes to let you know that the call is being recorded or whatever.
[15:12.300 --> 15:16.340]  This is a fantastic story fodder.
[15:18.160 --> 15:25.380]  Phiber Optik, who was on the show for, you know, years before the whole...
[15:25.380 --> 15:27.300]  All the stuff from...
[15:27.820 --> 15:30.500]  What, Masters of Deception, you ever read that book?
[15:31.040 --> 15:33.920]  The stuff from Masters of Deception took place.
[15:34.240 --> 15:37.860]  And then Phiber had a court case.
[15:38.440 --> 15:46.840]  And he was still on the show, but it became weird to me because he wasn't allowed to really talk about anything when before he was just very...
[15:46.840 --> 15:52.180]  He was very happy to speak about any sort of number of things.
[15:52.820 --> 15:54.000]  He was kind of like...
[15:54.000 --> 16:00.140]  His lawyers advised him to shut his trap, like, about these particular issues regarding his case.
[16:00.920 --> 16:02.500]  And then he went to jail.
[16:03.440 --> 16:09.180]  And they played a show, but like the day before they took him to prison.
[16:10.360 --> 16:12.060]  And it was emotional.
[16:12.400 --> 16:16.140]  I was sitting there drawing my little comics, like, dropping tears on my paper.
[16:16.980 --> 16:21.560]  Because this poor kid is going away for a year.
[16:21.680 --> 16:23.480]  I mean, that was unbelievable to me.
[16:23.560 --> 16:24.780]  And the kid is, I mean...
[16:24.780 --> 16:30.420]  You know, you got to know him as much as he let you get to know him by listening to the show.
[16:33.140 --> 16:37.600]  And, you know, so Phiber disappeared because he was in jail.
[16:37.880 --> 16:41.420]  And Emmanuel continued the show with a few other people here and there.
[16:42.920 --> 16:50.640]  And then the year goes by, you know, in a matter of like a week, if you're listening to 20 episodes a day or something.
[16:51.760 --> 17:04.880]  And, you know, they play rude boys out of jail by the specials during the show where they're bringing Phiber back to Manhattan after he's out of jail.
[17:04.880 --> 17:06.820]  And, you know, after his release.
[17:07.040 --> 17:07.810]  And it was epic.
[17:08.460 --> 17:09.120]  I mean, it was...
[17:09.120 --> 17:12.160]  It gave me chills just thinking about it.
[17:13.700 --> 17:16.640]  And, obviously, the Mitnick stuff was really interesting.
[17:17.020 --> 17:24.220]  Another interesting thing about Off the Hook when I was sitting drawing comics all day listening to the show was that...
[17:25.500 --> 17:36.140]  Emmanuel, whenever a new book on hacking or more specifically on particular hackers like Poulsen, Mitnick, Phiber Optik and those guys.
[17:38.320 --> 17:42.860]  Emmanuel would be able... would have access to interview these guys about the work.
[17:43.940 --> 17:51.680]  And, so, after listening to the entire archive of that, I decided to explore those books.
[17:51.800 --> 17:53.020]  They were all at the local library.
[17:54.360 --> 18:05.320]  And, you know, just upon further research and reading, I come across like work like YIPL and TAP.
[18:05.320 --> 18:10.780]  Phrack, 2600, all sorts of material.
[18:10.920 --> 18:13.320]  And, it's all just reading for pleasure.
[18:13.720 --> 18:26.040]  Certainly inspired by interesting stories that I've passively listened to while, you know, absorbing all of the Off the Hook archive.
[18:26.040 --> 18:44.900]  And, I started to develop these... I felt that psychologically, a lot of the more sort of observed hackers that were written about, they all share fairly similar psychological traits.
[18:44.900 --> 18:49.880]  As far as I could tell, this might, in true life, might not really be the case and probably isn't.
[18:50.940 --> 18:53.700]  But, I observed a lot of similar psychological traits.
[18:53.700 --> 19:08.600]  And, to be honest, a lot of those same mental energy... mental energies, I kind of identified with as being an obsessive, crazy cartoonist who...
[19:08.600 --> 19:10.100]  I never sleep either.
[19:10.560 --> 19:17.920]  And, I'm constantly working in the same way these guys are constantly... our energy is just split in different ways.
[19:17.920 --> 19:22.260]  And, maybe, if I had access to such technology when I was younger or...
[19:22.260 --> 19:24.000]  You know, your formative years are a big deal.
[19:24.140 --> 19:25.760]  They're called your formative years for a reason.
[19:27.380 --> 19:31.380]  And, for some reason, I just really identified with these guys.
[19:31.560 --> 19:32.780]  But, not in a romantic way.
[19:33.000 --> 19:38.380]  Like, I didn't think I was, like, a cool fugitive or, you know, a suburban MacGyver or something like this.
[19:38.380 --> 19:49.740]  And, I just... I really can't explain or articulate, like, how I really identified with these individuals, with their mindsets or whatnot.
[19:49.860 --> 19:51.480]  But, I did.
[19:53.280 --> 19:55.980]  And, I sort of had this idea, like...
[19:55.980 --> 20:00.040]  You know, I really want to do my own comic that I'm writing and drawing myself.
[20:00.500 --> 20:04.300]  Because, I was working with PCAR, just drawing for a couple of years.
[20:06.420 --> 20:11.280]  And, I felt like, through osmosis of reading all this information.
[20:12.040 --> 20:15.200]  And, listening to the Off the Hook show and all that sort of stuff.
[20:16.460 --> 20:20.660]  That, in terms of being a cartoonist, this is a story I could tell.
[20:23.060 --> 20:25.480]  That, probably, no other cartoonist could.
[20:25.680 --> 20:28.860]  Because, maybe, you know, most of those guys are not interested in such stuff.
[20:30.200 --> 20:35.700]  Maybe they don't have the fortitude to listen to a 20 plus year archive of this radio show.
[20:38.540 --> 20:44.070]  Whatever the case may be, I decided to, maybe, take the stories...
[20:44.580 --> 20:49.120]  The most interesting parts of all of the hackers that I was reading about.
[20:49.120 --> 20:52.360]  And, create a kind of pastiche narrative.
[20:53.500 --> 20:57.160]  Compiling all of this information into one character.
[20:57.560 --> 21:07.240]  And, seeing what would happen if he lived the lives of, like, a young Mitnick, Poulsen, Phiber Optik, Bernie S.
[21:07.480 --> 21:11.300]  All of these people in one body.
[21:11.300 --> 21:13.400]  So, that's sort of how WYSIWYG developed.
[21:16.840 --> 21:18.240]  And, I set the work.
[21:18.340 --> 21:19.300]  I put the comic together.
[21:19.380 --> 21:21.500]  I sort of had an idea of the audience.
[21:21.500 --> 21:27.620]  And, it was weird because I really didn't expect anybody to dig it.
[21:27.660 --> 21:29.160]  I thought it was going to be, like, the one volume.
[21:29.160 --> 21:31.260]  I kind of left it as a cliffhanger.
[21:31.740 --> 21:36.060]  Just in case people found it sort of interesting or something.
[21:39.600 --> 21:43.280]  And, at first, I did it as what's called a mini-comic.
[21:43.360 --> 21:49.960]  What a mini-comic is, is basically, like, your HOPE program book.
[21:50.300 --> 21:53.960]  It's just like an eight and a half by eleven piece of typing paper, folded in half.
[21:55.240 --> 21:57.680]  That's initially what WYSIWYG was.
[21:58.900 --> 22:02.500]  Just, they're called mini-comics in the biz.
[22:03.360 --> 22:05.700]  And, you know, you make them on Xeroxes and it's no big deal.
[22:05.700 --> 22:09.880]  It's like a dollar to make the things and you sell it for a dollar fifty or something.
[22:13.120 --> 22:14.380]  And, just something weird.
[22:14.540 --> 22:17.100]  Like, it was getting to be near Christmas time.
[22:17.380 --> 22:20.480]  And, my girlfriend was asking, you know, what do you want for Christmas?
[22:20.960 --> 22:22.280]  And, I couldn't think of anything.
[22:22.520 --> 22:23.680]  So, I was just like, you know what?
[22:23.680 --> 22:30.140]  I said, how about if I, you know, really plug away and put this whole book together.
[22:30.560 --> 22:33.960]  Would you buy me, like, a hundred copies of this thing?
[22:34.480 --> 22:36.340]  You know, at some print-on-demand place.
[22:36.740 --> 22:38.480]  And, you know, she said yes.
[22:38.480 --> 22:43.440]  And, so Christmas comes along and I received this box.
[22:44.260 --> 22:49.760]  Actually, like, five boxes of these 100 WYSIWYG Volume 1 comics.
[22:50.180 --> 22:53.380]  And, I, it kind of, it kind of f*cked my head up.
[22:53.840 --> 23:00.720]  Because, I was like, okay, now I have a whole lot of, like, I could use this for insulation in my bedroom or something.
[23:00.720 --> 23:02.440]  Like, what am I going to do with this shit?
[23:03.640 --> 23:06.520]  I mean, I could give a couple copies away to my friends.
[23:06.720 --> 23:09.440]  And, then there's still 90 copies.
[23:10.400 --> 23:14.140]  I had no idea what to do with these things, whatsoever.
[23:15.540 --> 23:20.800]  And, I just sort of had the idea of maybe, you know, I listened to all these podcasts.
[23:21.140 --> 23:24.040]  And, certainly off the hook and things like that.
[23:24.220 --> 23:29.600]  And, you know, they certainly inspired the work in a big, big way.
[23:29.600 --> 23:34.260]  So, maybe they would get a kick out of checking these things out or something.
[23:34.480 --> 23:38.680]  So, you know, I sent one to the 2600 P.O. Box.
[23:39.860 --> 23:49.560]  And, sent stuff to the different podcasts that I've enjoyed and listened to while I was working on illustrations or comics or whatever.
[23:50.140 --> 23:58.620]  And, then what started to happen was, I started to receive orders for the comics.
[23:58.620 --> 24:03.460]  Just emails came in like, you know, do you have these for sale?
[24:03.980 --> 24:10.640]  And, I think Emmanuel took them, took WYSIWYG to like the 2600 meeting locally here.
[24:13.000 --> 24:15.680]  And, little reviews here and there started to pop up.
[24:15.680 --> 24:28.840]  So, just I didn't really have the knowledge or the sort of, I didn't have much of an idea on how to sell this stuff online.
[24:28.840 --> 24:31.280]  I didn't know about like shopping carts and all this.
[24:31.360 --> 24:35.100]  So, I just like set up a simple PayPal button on my website.
[24:35.100 --> 24:38.940]  And, these things just started to sell.
[24:39.080 --> 24:40.020]  It was kind of interesting.
[24:42.020 --> 24:47.560]  On the bin rev forums, I kind of wanted to let those guys know.
[24:47.700 --> 24:49.280]  But, I sort of felt like I was spamming.
[24:50.240 --> 24:54.200]  And, I sort of let them know that I had this project that I did.
[24:54.360 --> 24:55.500]  And, I had a whole bunch of it online.
[24:56.700 --> 24:58.980]  And, all of these orders started to come in.
[24:59.720 --> 25:02.820]  And, one of the people who ordered the comics was Jason Scott.
[25:03.480 --> 25:04.580]  He ordered the stuff.
[25:04.920 --> 25:09.260]  And, I was blown away because I used his site for reference when I was creating the work.
[25:11.380 --> 25:12.940]  And, I told him this.
[25:13.160 --> 25:14.500]  And, he was like, whatever dude.
[25:14.640 --> 25:19.020]  It's not going to influence, you know, your nice words are not going to influence my review.
[25:20.980 --> 25:22.760]  So, I started to kind of like shit.
[25:22.760 --> 25:25.320]  Because, I'm like, oh man, if there's like, you know, five reviews.
[25:25.580 --> 25:29.180]  And, Jason Scott of all people says that my work is crap.
[25:29.880 --> 25:31.860]  Then, these hundred books are just going, you know.
[25:31.920 --> 25:34.180]  These seventy books I have are just going to sit here forever.
[25:35.420 --> 25:36.920]  He reviewed it favorably.
[25:37.140 --> 25:39.260]  And, a lot more orders came in.
[25:39.400 --> 25:43.680]  And, then this guy, Andy Baio, at waxy.org.
[25:43.680 --> 25:44.680]  He wrote a little something.
[25:44.800 --> 25:45.900]  And, more orders came in.
[25:46.400 --> 25:49.820]  And, the guys at the revision, at revision three.
[25:50.160 --> 25:52.160]  Like, there's a show called The Totally Rad Show.
[25:52.700 --> 25:54.100]  And, Hack 5.
[25:55.360 --> 25:56.940]  Those guys got a hold of copies.
[25:57.200 --> 25:57.820]  And, they reviewed it.
[25:57.980 --> 25:59.720]  And, more things sold.
[26:00.700 --> 26:04.280]  Boing Boing listed the comic on their site a few times.
[26:04.560 --> 26:06.120]  And, more and more copies sold.
[26:06.300 --> 26:08.220]  And, Wired Magazine did a piece.
[26:08.700 --> 26:11.220]  Steven Levy, whose Hacker's book is awesome.
[26:11.400 --> 26:14.820]  And, he's celebrating his 25th anniversary of that book.
[26:14.940 --> 26:15.780]  If you haven't checked it out.
[26:15.860 --> 26:16.720]  Which, I'm sure everybody did.
[26:18.480 --> 26:20.840]  So, just like, all these weird things just started happening.
[26:21.040 --> 26:23.440]  And, I was just kind of like, in awe.
[26:23.600 --> 26:26.760]  Watching, like, word of mouth travel.
[26:26.980 --> 26:28.120]  And, thought it was very interesting.
[26:30.420 --> 26:32.620]  And, I was getting rid of these comics.
[26:32.760 --> 26:34.840]  And, what I would do is get rid of those.
[26:35.100 --> 26:36.720]  And, then, maybe order another 100.
[26:37.600 --> 26:38.580]  And, then get rid of those.
[26:38.880 --> 26:40.680]  And, just keep going, and going, and going.
[26:40.680 --> 26:43.080]  And, then, it sort of became obvious to me.
[26:43.220 --> 26:44.600]  That I can continue this project.
[26:45.200 --> 26:45.540]  And, people.
[26:45.680 --> 26:47.460]  There's enough people who are interested in it.
[26:47.880 --> 26:48.600]  Who, um.
[26:49.760 --> 26:51.380]  Who, want to see where the story's going.
[26:51.580 --> 26:52.640]  And, people are emailing me.
[26:52.760 --> 26:53.280]  Asking me.
[26:53.380 --> 26:54.560]  You know, what happens next.
[26:54.740 --> 26:57.260]  It's, it's kind of a tease at the end.
[26:57.580 --> 26:58.540]  And, um.
[26:59.040 --> 26:59.680]  So, you know.
[27:00.200 --> 27:01.500]  I'm up to the third volume.
[27:02.000 --> 27:02.780]  It, the, it's.
[27:03.440 --> 27:04.440]  Whizzy Wig is.
[27:05.240 --> 27:05.600]  Over.
[27:05.800 --> 27:07.700]  It's, it's supposed to be like a four book series.
[27:08.020 --> 27:09.500]  But, it's really, it's one story.
[27:09.500 --> 27:12.300]  But, each volume, um.
[27:13.340 --> 27:16.280]  Handles an individual part of the hacker's life.
[27:16.440 --> 27:18.720]  So, like the first volume is called Phreak.
[27:19.060 --> 27:21.160]  And, it's specifically telephone stuff.
[27:21.620 --> 27:21.980]  Um.
[27:22.080 --> 27:25.040]  And, at the end he gets his first Trash 80.
[27:25.780 --> 27:26.480]  And, uh.
[27:26.620 --> 27:27.800]  The second volume is Hacker.
[27:28.120 --> 27:30.200]  And, deals with like the early days of the BBS's.
[27:32.920 --> 27:34.320]  ARPANET to Internet stuff.
[27:35.200 --> 27:35.400]  Um.
[27:36.300 --> 27:37.260]  War dialing.
[27:38.160 --> 27:39.160]  And, and things like that.
[27:39.160 --> 27:41.360]  And then the third volume is Fugitive.
[27:41.540 --> 27:41.920]  Which is.
[27:42.240 --> 27:43.920]  It's, it's not really a romantic.
[27:44.780 --> 27:45.540]  Portrait of.
[27:45.880 --> 27:48.520]  What it must have been like for a hacker to be on the run.
[27:48.900 --> 27:49.500]  I, I sort of.
[27:50.260 --> 27:50.300]  Um.
[27:50.780 --> 27:52.500]  Did other research outside of hacking.
[27:53.260 --> 27:53.600]  Uh.
[27:53.600 --> 27:54.240]  I also have like.
[27:54.520 --> 27:55.180]  Mitnick and Poulsen.
[27:55.500 --> 27:56.380]  To, to figure out like.
[27:56.500 --> 27:58.220]  What it's really like to be a fugitive.
[27:58.340 --> 27:59.720]  And, that shit sucks.
[27:59.720 --> 28:00.020]  I mean.
[28:00.320 --> 28:00.680]  Uh.
[28:00.880 --> 28:02.860]  To, to sort of be cut off from your family.
[28:03.520 --> 28:04.240]  To always.
[28:04.400 --> 28:06.760]  To, to sort of have to think of yourself as a different person.
[28:07.000 --> 28:07.180]  I mean.
[28:07.300 --> 28:07.500]  It's.
[28:08.160 --> 28:10.840]  It's probably better off just going to jail or something.
[28:11.540 --> 28:11.680]  Yeah.
[28:11.760 --> 28:12.320]  And, and you know.
[28:12.600 --> 28:13.380]  Sustaining yourself.
[28:14.280 --> 28:14.320]  Um.
[28:15.260 --> 28:17.980]  And I've yet to, to put the, the final volume together.
[28:18.560 --> 28:18.680]  Um.
[28:19.920 --> 28:20.320]  But.
[28:20.760 --> 28:20.940]  You know.
[28:21.480 --> 28:23.040]  That, that's pretty much WYSIWYG.
[28:23.280 --> 28:23.360]  Um.
[28:25.200 --> 28:25.540]  I, uh.
[28:25.640 --> 28:25.880]  Through.
[28:26.160 --> 28:26.540]  Through.
[28:26.840 --> 28:26.880]  Um.
[28:27.680 --> 28:29.100]  Getting talked about on Boing Boing.
[28:29.180 --> 28:30.640]  I got to know Cory Doctorow a little bit.
[28:30.740 --> 28:31.860]  And he sort of hipped me to.
[28:32.140 --> 28:32.540]  Uh.
[28:32.640 --> 28:33.380]  Creative Commons.
[28:34.120 --> 28:34.880]  And, um.
[28:35.780 --> 28:38.160]  That idea makes perfect sense to me.
[28:38.320 --> 28:39.780]  To just sort of increase readership.
[28:39.880 --> 28:40.420]  Increase eyeballs.
[28:40.600 --> 28:41.160]  So there is a.
[28:41.380 --> 28:43.440]  There's a PDF of the first two volumes.
[28:43.440 --> 28:43.860]  Um.
[28:44.400 --> 28:45.600]  That you can find at, uh.
[28:45.940 --> 28:46.720]  At my website.
[28:46.960 --> 28:47.620]  Edpiscor.com.
[28:48.720 --> 28:48.840]  Um.
[28:49.320 --> 28:50.560]  And you, you can check those out.
[28:50.760 --> 28:54.820]  I, I've recently figured out ways to make like smaller files.
[28:55.040 --> 28:55.920]  File sized.
[28:56.420 --> 28:56.760]  Uh.
[28:56.920 --> 28:57.980]  Like CBR files.
[28:58.140 --> 28:59.860]  Which seem to be what people like to read.
[29:00.260 --> 29:00.320]  Um.
[29:01.000 --> 29:04.220]  The, the, the sort of the program that people like to read comics online with.
[29:04.880 --> 29:05.200]  Um.
[29:05.520 --> 29:07.200]  So I want to upload that at some point.
[29:07.920 --> 29:08.020]  Um.
[29:09.220 --> 29:09.580]  But.
[29:10.340 --> 29:11.740]  Through the Creative Commons.
[29:11.740 --> 29:12.780]  Aspect.
[29:13.600 --> 29:16.820]  When Doctorow let people know that I put this PDF out there.
[29:17.000 --> 29:19.060]  Like 30,000 of them got downloaded.
[29:19.400 --> 29:19.900]  Like.
[29:20.060 --> 29:20.880]  During that.
[29:21.520 --> 29:21.980]  Like.
[29:22.120 --> 29:23.180]  Two nights after.
[29:24.080 --> 29:24.260]  Um.
[29:24.260 --> 29:24.300]  Um.
[29:25.260 --> 29:25.780]  And, uh.
[29:25.900 --> 29:27.380]  It's, it's, it's been a really cool thing.
[29:27.900 --> 29:28.100]  Um.
[29:28.260 --> 29:28.860]  The response.
[29:29.160 --> 29:32.440]  Within the community has been very, very favorable.
[29:33.440 --> 29:33.480]  Uh.
[29:33.640 --> 29:34.520]  To, to a large extent.
[29:34.680 --> 29:37.500]  There's a lot of an anachronistic stuff that I did in the story.
[29:37.500 --> 29:44.900]  That if you're a purist or very strict on, you know, the, the, the factual aspect of everything.
[29:45.140 --> 29:46.900]  You'll probably be disappointed.
[29:47.200 --> 29:48.860]  Because I wanted to switch certain things around.
[29:49.060 --> 29:51.540]  Just to make a story that was interesting to me.
[29:52.380 --> 29:52.580]  Um.
[29:53.160 --> 29:54.520]  So I'm aware of that fact.
[29:54.800 --> 29:57.060]  And some people were a little weirded out by it.
[29:59.080 --> 29:59.700]  And, uh.
[29:59.840 --> 30:01.740]  You know, last year I was, I was, uh.
[30:01.960 --> 30:02.700]  Asked to, uh.
[30:02.800 --> 30:04.420]  Speak at Notacon.
[30:04.720 --> 30:05.840]  Which was my first, uh.
[30:06.140 --> 30:08.720]  Hacking conference I've ever been to or anything like that.
[30:08.800 --> 30:10.060]  I was terrified.
[30:10.700 --> 30:10.840]  Because.
[30:11.460 --> 30:13.120]  Just reading people's comments.
[30:13.480 --> 30:14.880]  Not about my work per se.
[30:15.640 --> 30:16.040]  Online.
[30:16.320 --> 30:17.200]  But just in general.
[30:17.440 --> 30:18.840]  Like flame wars that would happen.
[30:19.040 --> 30:19.260]  And I.
[30:19.480 --> 30:20.620]  Was kind of freaked out.
[30:20.820 --> 30:21.900]  Because these people obviously.
[30:22.340 --> 30:22.780]  You know.
[30:22.880 --> 30:23.640]  Speak their mind.
[30:23.840 --> 30:24.560]  And, um.
[30:25.160 --> 30:25.440]  You know.
[30:25.600 --> 30:26.960]  When they saw me face to face.
[30:26.960 --> 30:27.460]  They were.
[30:27.500 --> 30:28.800]  They were just gonna let me have it.
[30:28.860 --> 30:29.200]  Or something.
[30:29.400 --> 30:29.660]  If they.
[30:29.800 --> 30:30.920]  Didn't agree with something.
[30:31.480 --> 30:32.200]  And I.
[30:32.640 --> 30:34.040]  Haven't found that that was the case at all.
[30:34.120 --> 30:35.240]  Everybody seems very positive.
[30:35.900 --> 30:35.960]  Um.
[30:36.220 --> 30:36.360]  Though.
[30:36.360 --> 30:36.800]  The one.
[30:37.180 --> 30:38.920]  Negative comment I got personally.
[30:39.640 --> 30:40.040]  Was.
[30:40.180 --> 30:41.740]  In the elevator at Notacon.
[30:42.400 --> 30:42.640]  Um.
[30:43.160 --> 30:44.060]  I saw Bernie S.
[30:44.220 --> 30:44.300]  Get.
[30:44.380 --> 30:45.120]  Get on the elevator.
[30:45.380 --> 30:45.520]  And.
[30:45.820 --> 30:46.740]  My little name tag.
[30:47.040 --> 30:47.220]  You know.
[30:47.320 --> 30:48.400]  It had my name on it.
[30:48.520 --> 30:50.280]  And I recognized that it was Bernie S.
[30:50.380 --> 30:51.880]  Because I saw him in Freedom Downtime.
[30:52.120 --> 30:54.080]  And I referenced him in one panel.
[30:54.280 --> 30:55.620]  In the first WYSIWIG book.
[30:56.240 --> 30:56.640]  And.
[30:57.020 --> 30:57.160]  Um.
[30:58.240 --> 30:58.640]  He.
[30:58.800 --> 30:59.600]  He saw me.
[30:59.760 --> 31:00.280]  And he said.
[31:00.540 --> 31:00.940]  Piscor.
[31:00.940 --> 31:02.100]  You're the guy that did that comic.
[31:02.400 --> 31:04.320]  I have a bone to pick with you.
[31:04.640 --> 31:05.180]  And I.
[31:05.180 --> 31:06.600]  I got freaked out.
[31:07.280 --> 31:07.320]  Um.
[31:08.580 --> 31:08.840]  In.
[31:08.900 --> 31:09.120]  In.
[31:09.240 --> 31:10.260]  The Wired article.
[31:10.820 --> 31:10.980]  There.
[31:11.100 --> 31:13.360]  They showed the one panel that Bernie was referenced.
[31:13.840 --> 31:14.640]  And it's.
[31:14.800 --> 31:14.900]  Um.
[31:15.400 --> 31:15.840]  There's a.
[31:15.960 --> 31:16.340]  There's a.
[31:16.940 --> 31:17.380]  Strip.
[31:17.640 --> 31:17.740]  Where.
[31:18.920 --> 31:19.360]  It's.
[31:19.660 --> 31:21.740]  It's called The Misadventures of Steve and Steve.
[31:22.100 --> 31:23.040]  That I put in there.
[31:23.200 --> 31:23.360]  And.
[31:23.840 --> 31:25.880]  It's Steve Jobs and Steve Wozniak.
[31:26.000 --> 31:26.460]  But I.
[31:26.640 --> 31:27.020]  You know.
[31:27.020 --> 31:28.300]  I don't include their names.
[31:28.480 --> 31:28.720]  Uh.
[31:28.980 --> 31:30.140]  But I have them dressed up as.
[31:30.280 --> 31:30.340]  Um.
[31:30.380 --> 31:31.740]  I'll show panels from that in a minute.
[31:32.180 --> 31:32.340]  Um.
[31:32.340 --> 31:32.380]  Um.
[31:32.580 --> 31:34.260]  I have them dressed up in their like.
[31:34.480 --> 31:35.560]  Alice in Wonderland outfits.
[31:35.880 --> 31:35.900]  Because.
[31:36.240 --> 31:37.100]  They worked at like.
[31:37.220 --> 31:37.760]  A local mall.
[31:38.980 --> 31:39.340]  As.
[31:39.460 --> 31:39.780]  You know.
[31:39.860 --> 31:40.560]  Like the Mad Hatter.
[31:40.740 --> 31:41.360]  And the White Rabbit.
[31:41.920 --> 31:42.180]  And.
[31:42.400 --> 31:43.520]  So Steve Jobs is.
[31:43.680 --> 31:45.140]  Is on this pay phone.
[31:45.760 --> 31:46.400]  And you know.
[31:46.440 --> 31:47.420]  They used to sell blue boxes.
[31:48.040 --> 31:48.420]  And.
[31:49.920 --> 31:51.480]  Jobs is talking to Wozniak.
[31:51.680 --> 31:51.820]  Like.
[31:52.040 --> 31:52.320]  Yeah.
[31:52.420 --> 31:52.940]  I have this guy.
[31:52.960 --> 31:53.860]  Bernie in Philadelphia.
[31:54.000 --> 31:55.800]  He wants to buy three of these boxes from us.
[31:56.000 --> 31:57.460]  So Bernie catches me in the.
[31:57.520 --> 31:58.100]  In the elevator.
[31:58.380 --> 31:58.840]  And he's like.
[31:58.980 --> 32:00.260]  You make me seem.
[32:00.260 --> 32:01.560]  So lame.
[32:01.820 --> 32:04.000]  That I have to buy these things.
[32:04.500 --> 32:08.200]  I made these things before they knew what blue boxes were.
[32:08.980 --> 32:09.540]  And.
[32:09.800 --> 32:10.580]  I was.
[32:10.780 --> 32:12.540]  I was like mortified.
[32:13.080 --> 32:13.480]  Because.
[32:14.660 --> 32:15.720]  I listened to these guys.
[32:15.880 --> 32:17.860]  I sort of mythologized them in a big way.
[32:18.240 --> 32:18.480]  And.
[32:19.320 --> 32:19.400]  The.
[32:20.120 --> 32:22.440]  The section of the story that I was in.
[32:22.800 --> 32:23.420]  Really didn't.
[32:24.160 --> 32:24.700]  Like.
[32:24.800 --> 32:27.100]  I wasn't able to squeeze in any cool.
[32:27.440 --> 32:28.320]  Bernie S.
[32:28.560 --> 32:29.780]  references at that point.
[32:30.320 --> 32:30.720]  But.
[32:30.880 --> 32:31.260]  You know.
[32:31.460 --> 32:32.500]  That certainly is going to.
[32:32.720 --> 32:33.480]  Change when.
[32:33.660 --> 32:34.580]  The character's in jail.
[32:34.780 --> 32:36.140]  With some of the bullshit he went through.
[32:36.420 --> 32:38.460]  But I wanted to give at least a little nod.
[32:38.860 --> 32:39.520]  To him.
[32:39.660 --> 32:40.500]  In that first book.
[32:40.660 --> 32:42.200]  And that's the only place I could think to like.
[32:42.360 --> 32:43.200]  Squeeze it in.
[32:43.700 --> 32:44.080]  And.
[32:44.280 --> 32:45.540]  I meant it with affection.
[32:46.200 --> 32:46.580]  And.
[32:47.700 --> 32:48.100]  With.
[32:48.600 --> 32:49.000]  With.
[32:49.160 --> 32:50.020]  With positive vibes.
[32:50.500 --> 32:50.900]  And.
[32:50.980 --> 32:51.920]  I sort of let him know this.
[32:51.920 --> 32:52.220]  And I.
[32:52.220 --> 32:54.180]  I think he saw how bummed out I was.
[32:54.320 --> 32:54.800]  When he like.
[32:55.240 --> 32:55.580]  When he.
[32:55.640 --> 32:56.620]  When he said that to me.
[32:57.380 --> 32:57.640]  And.
[32:57.860 --> 32:57.940]  Um.
[32:58.680 --> 32:59.580]  And I'll have you know.
[32:59.760 --> 32:59.940]  At.
[33:00.060 --> 33:01.020]  This last Notacon.
[33:01.100 --> 33:02.180]  He and I shared a bed.
[33:02.180 --> 33:02.680]  Um.
[33:06.370 --> 33:06.930]  But.
[33:08.710 --> 33:09.270]  But.
[33:09.490 --> 33:09.510]  Uh.
[33:10.130 --> 33:10.370]  You know.
[33:10.470 --> 33:10.530]  We.
[33:10.630 --> 33:12.090]  We became very friendly.
[33:12.370 --> 33:12.470]  Uh.
[33:12.810 --> 33:13.330]  After that.
[33:15.510 --> 33:16.990]  I kind of dug myself a hole.
[33:16.990 --> 33:17.010]  Cool.
[33:18.010 --> 33:18.550]  Um.
[33:19.070 --> 33:20.110]  How are we doing on time?
[33:22.710 --> 33:23.250]  Wow.
[33:23.430 --> 33:24.790]  I actually spoke for 38 minutes.
[33:25.070 --> 33:26.770]  This isn't typical for me by the way.
[33:26.890 --> 33:28.110]  I'm very very shy.
[33:29.090 --> 33:29.410]  And.
[33:30.430 --> 33:30.970]  And.
[33:31.170 --> 33:32.370]  I wasn't expecting to be able to.
[33:32.510 --> 33:33.830]  Sort of filibuster this long.
[33:34.730 --> 33:34.890]  Um.
[33:35.390 --> 33:36.890]  Does anybody have any questions.
[33:37.410 --> 33:37.610]  Or.
[33:38.210 --> 33:39.430]  Anything like that.
[33:39.830 --> 33:39.970]  Uh.
[33:40.390 --> 33:41.250]  About this work.
[33:41.630 --> 33:41.870]  Or.
[33:42.330 --> 33:42.870]  Whatever.
[33:43.770 --> 33:44.090]  Yeah.
[33:44.250 --> 33:44.370]  Yeah.
[33:44.370 --> 33:44.850]  Thanks for.
[33:45.510 --> 33:45.770]  For covering the.
[33:47.350 --> 33:47.750]  And stuff like that.
[33:48.050 --> 33:48.290]  As well.
[33:48.510 --> 33:48.630]  Like that.
[33:49.230 --> 33:49.290]  Right.
[33:51.490 --> 33:51.770]  And.
[33:51.970 --> 33:52.650]  You mentioned that you're doing.
[33:52.790 --> 33:53.470]  Running for.
[33:54.290 --> 33:54.390]  Uh.
[33:54.970 --> 33:55.230]  One thing.
[33:55.350 --> 33:56.350]  You talked about how you.
[33:56.550 --> 33:57.950]  Why you decided to go in.
[33:58.070 --> 33:59.150]  Kind of fictionalizing.
[33:59.450 --> 34:00.430]  The whole story.
[34:00.630 --> 34:00.770]  Which.
[34:00.930 --> 34:01.350]  That's great.
[34:01.690 --> 34:02.430]  But I'm wondering.
[34:02.570 --> 34:03.230]  Are you going to do.
[34:03.590 --> 34:05.570]  Do you consider any works that we've been.
[34:05.730 --> 34:05.930]  Oh.
[34:06.070 --> 34:06.250]  I'm sorry.
[34:06.450 --> 34:06.750]  Where's that?
[34:06.870 --> 34:07.130]  Uh.
[34:09.990 --> 34:10.390]  Yeah.
[34:10.590 --> 34:11.690]  I was asking about the.
[34:12.410 --> 34:13.770]  Future work that he might be doing.
[34:14.150 --> 34:14.510]  And.
[34:14.590 --> 34:14.950]  Uh.
[34:16.170 --> 34:16.450]  Are you.
[34:16.570 --> 34:17.350]  And about how.
[34:17.690 --> 34:17.770]  Uh.
[34:17.890 --> 34:19.730]  The WYSIWYG series was fictionalized.
[34:19.930 --> 34:20.890]  Based on the 2600.
[34:21.030 --> 34:21.570]  Which is all great.
[34:22.070 --> 34:22.370]  But.
[34:22.590 --> 34:22.850]  Um.
[34:23.290 --> 34:25.570]  Are you considering doing any more non-fiction type stuff.
[34:25.730 --> 34:26.770]  Or things either based on.
[34:27.050 --> 34:27.270]  You know.
[34:27.330 --> 34:28.150]  The true life stories.
[34:28.370 --> 34:29.550]  Or even some of the more technical.
[34:29.750 --> 34:30.630]  Type hacking stuff.
[34:30.750 --> 34:31.890]  Because I think you'd be good at that.
[34:32.410 --> 34:32.550]  Uh.
[34:32.690 --> 34:33.010]  Thanks a lot.
[34:33.150 --> 34:33.230]  Um.
[34:33.270 --> 34:34.010]  That's a good question.
[34:34.190 --> 34:34.450]  Because.
[34:34.630 --> 34:34.710]  Um.
[34:34.750 --> 34:35.290]  To be honest.
[34:35.610 --> 34:35.970]  Initially.
[34:35.970 --> 34:36.970]  Uh.
[34:38.130 --> 34:40.150]  The WYSIWYG is a product of.
[34:40.330 --> 34:43.610]  Me not being able to get in touch with the actual hackers.
[34:44.390 --> 34:45.050]  To do.
[34:45.290 --> 34:45.610]  I like.
[34:45.630 --> 34:46.570]  I was very interested.
[34:46.970 --> 34:47.650]  In telling.
[34:47.790 --> 34:49.090]  In doing like a Bernie S.
[34:49.610 --> 34:50.110]  biography.
[34:50.110 --> 34:51.170]  Because nothing.
[34:51.510 --> 34:52.070]  Sort of.
[34:52.170 --> 34:52.590]  Exists.
[34:52.910 --> 34:53.390]  About him.
[34:53.530 --> 34:54.550]  In his particular situation.
[34:55.230 --> 34:56.650]  And he went through some bull crap.
[34:56.850 --> 34:56.990]  You know.
[34:57.070 --> 34:57.330]  Like.
[34:57.470 --> 34:58.570]  I'm not sure if everybody knows.
[34:58.710 --> 34:58.830]  But.
[34:58.970 --> 34:59.850]  When he was in prison.
[35:00.350 --> 35:02.650]  He got the living shit beat out of him.
[35:02.950 --> 35:05.130]  And he's got like a bionic arm now.
[35:05.390 --> 35:05.790]  And like.
[35:05.910 --> 35:06.990]  A wired jaw.
[35:07.370 --> 35:07.470]  And.
[35:07.770 --> 35:08.370]  And he.
[35:08.370 --> 35:09.270]  He got completely.
[35:09.670 --> 35:10.210]  Screwed up.
[35:10.310 --> 35:10.450]  And.
[35:10.510 --> 35:11.350]  And I really wanted to.
[35:11.530 --> 35:11.730]  To.
[35:12.350 --> 35:12.630]  Do.
[35:12.850 --> 35:13.690]  A biography.
[35:14.070 --> 35:15.750]  A non-fiction biography about him.
[35:15.750 --> 35:17.870]  But the only way that I would ever do.
[35:18.050 --> 35:19.410]  A piece of non-fiction.
[35:20.430 --> 35:21.130]  Is if.
[35:21.450 --> 35:21.530]  I.
[35:21.790 --> 35:22.250]  Can work.
[35:22.390 --> 35:22.810]  And collaborate.
[35:23.070 --> 35:24.210]  With the actual person.
[35:24.850 --> 35:25.170]  Because.
[35:25.890 --> 35:26.890]  I don't want to.
[35:27.370 --> 35:28.770]  Participate in creating something.
[35:28.910 --> 35:29.410]  That's like that.
[35:29.590 --> 35:30.390]  Take down movie.
[35:30.930 --> 35:31.310]  That.
[35:31.670 --> 35:32.030]  Just.
[35:32.250 --> 35:33.530]  Is sort of skewed.
[35:33.830 --> 35:35.650]  And the opinion of one person.
[35:36.050 --> 35:36.370]  And.
[35:37.230 --> 35:37.790]  You know.
[35:37.870 --> 35:38.730]  Full of inaccuracy.
[35:38.890 --> 35:39.510]  So the reason.
[35:39.830 --> 35:41.430]  Why I did do this fictional.
[35:41.990 --> 35:42.450]  Story.
[35:42.910 --> 35:43.110]  Is.
[35:43.330 --> 35:44.570]  I almost feel like.
[35:44.570 --> 35:45.890]  My comic is what that.
[35:45.890 --> 35:46.650]  Take down flick.
[35:47.030 --> 35:47.570]  Should have been.
[35:48.070 --> 35:49.370]  In as much as.
[35:50.290 --> 35:50.930]  You know.
[35:51.110 --> 35:51.650]  They used.
[35:51.950 --> 35:52.890]  Mitnick's real name.
[35:53.170 --> 35:53.650]  And you know.
[35:53.830 --> 35:54.710]  Skeet Ulrich.
[35:55.030 --> 35:55.390]  Played him.
[35:55.970 --> 35:56.390]  And.
[35:56.610 --> 35:57.570]  It really romanticized.
[35:58.110 --> 35:58.630]  A lot of stuff.
[35:58.790 --> 35:59.370]  And I think the guy.
[35:59.390 --> 36:00.250]  Was still in jail.
[36:00.710 --> 36:01.510]  When the flick.
[36:01.630 --> 36:02.150]  Was being made.
[36:02.290 --> 36:03.250]  And they had these.
[36:03.890 --> 36:04.130]  These.
[36:04.770 --> 36:05.370]  Four drawn.
[36:05.850 --> 36:06.290]  Conclusions.
[36:06.570 --> 36:07.110]  About how.
[36:07.290 --> 36:07.910]  His situation.
[36:08.090 --> 36:08.850]  Was going to end up.
[36:08.910 --> 36:09.410]  And that just seemed.
[36:09.610 --> 36:09.870]  F*cking.
[36:10.210 --> 36:10.650]  Crazy.
[36:10.650 --> 36:12.050]  That seemed like.
[36:12.350 --> 36:12.450]  So.
[36:13.630 --> 36:13.910]  So.
[36:14.550 --> 36:15.110]  Irresponsible.
[36:15.530 --> 36:15.750]  And.
[36:16.610 --> 36:16.890]  Evil.
[36:17.590 --> 36:17.850]  And.
[36:18.390 --> 36:18.730]  They're.
[36:18.890 --> 36:19.050]  They're.
[36:19.190 --> 36:19.710]  In the.
[36:19.710 --> 36:20.650]  In the WYSIWYG books.
[36:20.810 --> 36:20.930]  Like.
[36:21.250 --> 36:21.710]  At the end.
[36:21.970 --> 36:22.710]  For the non.
[36:23.270 --> 36:23.810]  The non.
[36:25.570 --> 36:26.670]  For the comic.
[36:26.990 --> 36:27.070]  Crowd.
[36:27.350 --> 36:27.570]  Actually.
[36:30.110 --> 36:30.470]  Have.
[36:33.150 --> 36:34.130]  In the way.
[36:50.210 --> 36:50.570]  We.
[36:53.230 --> 36:53.950]  I sort of.
[36:57.030 --> 36:57.390]  Describe.
[36:57.410 --> 36:57.430]  An.
[36:57.430 --> 36:57.450]  An.
[36:57.470 --> 36:57.490]  An.
[36:57.510 --> 36:57.530]  An.
[36:57.530 --> 37:03.770]  And I'm going to take that stuff out whenever I put the entire story together or whatever.
[37:06.770 --> 37:21.770]  But yeah, I would love to do a piece of nonfiction, but maybe with WYSIWYG out there, that would give me some sort of legitimacy with the actual hackers whose stories I'm interested in.
[37:22.390 --> 37:25.290]  And maybe they would be interested in working with me.
[37:25.290 --> 37:27.670]  And if so, I would be more than happy to.
[37:27.930 --> 37:30.810]  But, you know, I just don't want to...
[37:30.810 --> 37:51.690]  I have such a positive feeling from researching and finding stuff out about these hackers that I don't want to do anything negative or irresponsible with these people or, you know, with these people's lives, essentially, and perpetrate myths or anything like that.
[37:53.350 --> 38:00.570]  Another weird thing that I really didn't intend on is having, like, two different audiences with WYSIWYG.
[38:00.570 --> 38:06.070]  Like, I really didn't think because I just imagine that people who read comics are just people who...
[38:06.070 --> 38:08.310]  It's like this, like, niche, and that's it.
[38:08.410 --> 38:12.610]  And other people really can't be introduced to comics because maybe it weirds them out.
[38:12.610 --> 38:23.510]  And it's certainly... when I go into a comic shop and I see, like, these... like, a big red hulk and, like, with these ripped muscles and these chicks with huge boobs and waist like this and big...
[38:23.510 --> 38:25.650]  It's like, ah, it's too much.
[38:25.810 --> 38:27.190]  It's like sensory overload.
[38:27.190 --> 38:29.750]  And I can see why people are turned off by this stuff.
[38:31.110 --> 38:38.530]  But within the community, there is a audience that has developed from these comics, which I'm very proud of.
[38:38.890 --> 38:49.730]  And a lot of people are being introduced to comics for the first time through WYSIWYG, which I feel a huge responsibility for because there are a lot of cartoonists whose work I hate.
[38:49.730 --> 38:56.670]  And the reason why, like, I have such vile feelings towards them is because their comic might be the first comic that somebody reads.
[38:56.670 --> 38:57.570]  And it's shit.
[38:57.650 --> 38:59.790]  And I don't want that to be somebody's experience.
[38:59.970 --> 39:01.390]  I mean, this is like my livelihood.
[39:01.390 --> 39:04.330]  And I don't want your first experience to be reading something crappy.
[39:06.310 --> 39:16.550]  But what has developed with these two... with these two different audiences that the book has, it's almost like a contrived scheme that I developed.
[39:17.250 --> 39:22.790]  Because within the comics crowd, they find that the story is fascinating, interesting.
[39:23.290 --> 39:33.290]  And to a certain extent, I mean, I have the annotations in the back describing like the real life events or technological things that I sort of stole from.
[39:34.610 --> 39:38.070]  But they think that it's like a really cool, compelling story.
[39:39.610 --> 39:48.710]  And with the hacking crowd, the technology crowd, they're interested in the way the story is told.
[39:48.950 --> 39:52.730]  And I just stole storytelling techniques from my favorite cartoonists.
[39:52.990 --> 40:06.030]  So, like, on both, like, niche audiences that I have, people typically think I'm pretty cool when all I'm doing is taking info and, like, stuff I learned from a whole bunch of other people.
[40:06.030 --> 40:09.590]  So, basically, I'm here to tell you that I'm not original at all.
[40:11.230 --> 40:15.890]  But if you want to check out my comics, I'm going to be downstairs at the mezzanine.
[40:16.110 --> 40:19.870]  Come, feel free, take a look and grab a sticker and stick it someplace.
[40:21.730 --> 40:25.270]  I'm going to be serializing the work.
[40:25.810 --> 40:31.030]  I decided to go back and re-write a lot of the stuff just to tighten things up.
[40:31.030 --> 40:38.810]  I feel like, like, as a kid, when you're learning to draw, there is an exponential growth that happens at a certain point where you are drawing stick figures.
[40:39.130 --> 40:43.890]  And then you could draw passable stuff that looks, like, more structured and awesome.
[40:44.010 --> 40:45.970]  And that happens in a very fast span.
[40:45.970 --> 41:02.590]  And while writing the WYSIWYG comics, I feel like I had that exponential growth in terms of writing from the first volume to the third volume that I felt like I had to go back and tighten things up so that it kind of, like, matches the whole way through.
[41:02.590 --> 41:09.170]  I'm not saying I'm a great writer or anything, by the way, but it's better, it's going to be better than what I initially had.
[41:09.290 --> 41:27.970]  And I'm going to be serializing that stuff at WYSIWYGcomics.com, putting up, like, two pages, putting up, like, two pages a week of the story and, you know, take, like, maybe a year and a half or something for the whole thing to appear online.
[41:27.970 --> 41:30.170]  But, yeah, feel free.
[41:30.350 --> 41:33.910]  Come hang out if you want to check out my comics or whatever.
[41:34.250 --> 41:39.090]  Does anybody have any other questions or comments or anything like that?
[41:44.140 --> 41:45.700]  If you do, please step up to the mic.
[41:47.100 --> 41:48.240]  Do you have a question, sir?
[41:48.440 --> 41:48.780]  Yes.
[41:49.240 --> 41:49.500]  Cool.
[41:53.800 --> 41:54.560]  Here's the mic.
[42:09.140 --> 42:09.800]  Thank you.
[42:10.600 --> 42:12.240]  My question is more technical.
[42:12.240 --> 42:13.600]  How do you...
[42:13.600 --> 42:16.420]  I mean, what techniques do you use for drawing?
[42:17.140 --> 42:18.840]  And how long does it take you?
[42:18.920 --> 42:21.740]  Do you use any templates or do you...
[42:21.740 --> 42:23.660]  What kind of technique do you use?
[42:24.240 --> 42:29.400]  And how long does it take you to make this, let's say, one panel?
[42:29.980 --> 42:30.260]  Okay.
[42:31.800 --> 42:32.360]  The...
[42:32.360 --> 42:33.260]  Here, let me put this back.
[42:37.480 --> 42:48.020]  Each page of WYSIWYG is structured as, like, a four-panel page, kind of like the same structure as the comic strips that you see in the newspaper.
[42:49.160 --> 42:55.220]  And those are originally, like, five inch by five inch squares, each individually.
[42:56.720 --> 43:01.600]  It takes me, like, a whole day to put together a page of those comics.
[43:03.380 --> 43:05.860]  The writing sort of takes me forever.
[43:06.300 --> 43:06.640]  It's just...
[43:06.640 --> 43:20.200]  There's so much thinking that goes behind the scenes that, like, before I hit the final page with what I want to do, half the day has already passed.
[43:20.200 --> 43:25.840]  So then I draw it in with, like, a non-repro blue colored pencil.
[43:27.000 --> 43:31.500]  Because when you apply ink over top of that and you scan it, you don't see the pencil lines.
[43:31.520 --> 43:36.260]  And that will save me, like, maybe a year's worth of time, eventually, of erasing.
[43:38.720 --> 43:46.480]  So, each book took, like, probably close to a year to come to fruition.
[43:46.480 --> 43:48.560]  Because this is, like, my moonlighting thing.
[43:49.220 --> 43:54.740]  I did the American Splendor stuff and other comics with Harvey during the day.
[43:55.600 --> 43:59.400]  I pieced together an income in all weird sort of ways.
[43:59.400 --> 44:05.220]  Like, by doing speaking things and doing illustration work in magazines and stuff like that.
[44:06.060 --> 44:06.720]  What's that?
[44:07.400 --> 44:07.780]  Oh, okay.
[44:09.460 --> 44:10.840]  By doing illustration...
[44:10.840 --> 44:14.820]  So, I would have to do that stuff to sort of live.
[44:15.400 --> 44:27.060]  And when normal people are spending time with their loved ones or watching television or enjoying life, then I, like, go to the basement and start working on my WYSIWYG comic.
[44:27.080 --> 44:34.620]  Because that brings me the same sort of pleasure that other people get going fishing or watching football or crap like that.
[44:35.720 --> 44:38.380]  So, I would love to work on it full time.
[44:38.840 --> 44:40.780]  But it's just not a possibility.
[44:42.720 --> 44:49.040]  So, as it stands, like, each volume has taken basically a year to come out.
[44:50.080 --> 44:51.100]  Any other questions?
[44:53.500 --> 44:54.820]  You want to step up to the mic?
[45:00.410 --> 45:05.410]  I was just curious about the response from the kind of traditional comic book scene.
[45:08.230 --> 45:12.730]  A lot of people, like I said, they find the story, like, really interesting.
[45:13.450 --> 45:22.910]  And it's sort of, the people who have decided to read it, it really opened up their mind to the idea of what a hacker is.
[45:22.910 --> 45:34.210]  Another thing I wanted to get across in the work is sort of doing my best not to misrepresent what it means to be a hacker.
[45:34.210 --> 45:46.490]  I sort of, like, was imbued with this idea by the words of Emanuel Goldstein throughout that entire archive of Off the Hook where, you know, they were...
[45:46.490 --> 45:51.050]  The term hacker started to mean, you know, basically criminal.
[45:51.050 --> 45:59.410]  And, you know, that just seemed extremely wrong, and the word has deep roots that are very positive.
[46:00.450 --> 46:02.390]  So, the response has been pretty cool.
[46:04.050 --> 46:06.730]  Publishers were interested in the work, comics publishers.
[46:07.050 --> 46:11.570]  And some of them still are, and they seem to like where things are going.
[46:11.570 --> 46:19.050]  So, maybe I'll have one of these guys distribute it because I feel like I've done everything I could in terms of getting it out there that I could do on my own.
[46:19.050 --> 46:22.990]  But maybe, I don't know, I'm sort of playing around with that idea.
[46:23.150 --> 46:30.350]  But initially, when I had this idea, because publishers, a few guys were interested in publishing my work, and I described WYSIWYG and what I wanted it to be.
[46:31.390 --> 46:38.370]  And they would say stuff like, you know, there sure are a lot of telephone conversations in that phone pheak section of the book.
[46:39.630 --> 46:42.250]  And I'm like, are you f*cking kidding me?
[46:43.030 --> 46:47.150]  And, you know, these characters sure are spending a lot of time in front of a computer console.
[46:50.770 --> 46:54.150]  And, you know, I certainly did not want to do one of these.
[46:54.550 --> 46:58.910]  Like, you know, the kid types away at a keyboard and a satellite falls out of the sky.
[46:59.210 --> 47:06.850]  Or kind of, you know, hyper real bullshit, you know, fictional pieces of garbage.
[47:07.110 --> 47:08.570]  Like, that is not what I'm interested in.
[47:09.350 --> 47:15.070]  But as they see sort of the audience that is growing, that I'm sort of cultivating...
[47:15.070 --> 47:17.530]  I feel so gross speaking this way, too, by the way.
[47:18.090 --> 47:19.850]  It's all happening by accident.
[47:22.150 --> 47:23.870]  But the audience is sort of developing.
[47:24.050 --> 47:28.850]  Like, the publishers are sort of showing up and are, like, becoming more acceptable to the idea of putting this out.
[47:28.850 --> 47:32.990]  Like, you know, there are people out there who would like to see this thing in, like, a nice, handsome volume.
[47:33.430 --> 47:38.330]  As opposed to my, like, print-on-demand, you know, flimsy copies or whatever.
[47:38.730 --> 47:40.710]  So, the response has been pretty cool.
[47:40.990 --> 47:44.910]  And I think that might be it.
[47:45.770 --> 47:47.770]  So, I'm going to go run down to the mezzanine.
[47:48.530 --> 47:51.510]  If you guys want to come hang out throughout the day, I'm going to be there all day.
[47:52.390 --> 47:53.890]  Thanks for lending me your ears.
[47:54.510 --> 47:55.570]  I appreciate it a lot.
[48:01.100 --> 48:06.300]  And thanks a lot for that little clapping ovation from my pal Harv, who passed away.
[48:06.440 --> 48:07.380]  Man, I really appreciate that.
[48:07.400 --> 48:08.200]  I know he would, too.
[48:11.140 --> 48:12.660]  You put up the upper EFs.
[48:13.100 --> 48:14.780]  Oh, okay.
[48:15.740 --> 48:16.400]  Yeah, I do.
[48:16.400 --> 48:17.040]  I was...
[48:18.320 --> 48:19.860]  I was kind of like...