[01:16.840 --> 01:19.960]  I guess technically now I can say good afternoon, everybody.
[01:22.360 --> 01:23.700]  Sorry for being a little late.
[01:24.080 --> 01:25.160]  We'll try to get right into this.
[01:26.160 --> 01:28.720]  First things first, and you guys all should probably already have this.
[01:28.960 --> 01:36.140]  All your phones should be turned off or on vibrate because my laser's unstunned.
[01:37.140 --> 01:37.940]  All right.
[01:39.300 --> 01:44.060]  So our next session here is hacking local politics.
[01:45.660 --> 01:47.520]  That's going to be very interesting.
[01:47.680 --> 01:48.580]  I'm going to find that very interesting.
[01:49.040 --> 01:53.160]  How we banned facial recognition in Minneapolis.
[01:54.000 --> 01:56.060]  Minari Muhammad and Chris Whelan.
[01:57.140 --> 01:58.680]  Thank you and take it away.
[02:00.160 --> 02:00.560]  Awesome.
[02:01.100 --> 02:03.080]  How do we get it to show up there?
[02:12.530 --> 02:12.930]  Sorry.
[02:13.070 --> 02:14.230]  Is it going to show up on the screen?
[02:18.800 --> 02:19.820]  Sorry about that, guys.
[02:20.340 --> 02:21.700]  Thank you for coming to the talk.
[02:21.960 --> 02:23.460]  Again, my name is Minari Muhammad.
[02:23.760 --> 02:25.480]  I'm from Minneapolis, Minnesota.
[02:25.760 --> 02:28.840]  And this is Chris Whelan, who's also from Minneapolis.
[02:29.260 --> 02:33.660]  And we're going to talk about 2020... Oh, okay.
[02:35.460 --> 02:35.860]  Sorry.
[02:36.060 --> 02:37.820]  We have a PowerPoint to show people.
[02:42.170 --> 02:42.770]  No?
[02:42.990 --> 02:42.990]  No.
[02:44.170 --> 02:44.770]  Okay.
[02:44.930 --> 02:45.410]  Beautiful.
[02:45.690 --> 02:46.310]  There we go.
[02:46.570 --> 02:47.510]  Let's get going.
[02:47.930 --> 02:48.310]  Okay.
[02:48.370 --> 03:02.910]  So we're going to talk about our experiences in 2021 and 2020 in Minneapolis, working in a local coalition, working in local politics around surveillance, ending mass surveillance, data privacy, all that good stuff.
[03:02.910 --> 03:04.850]  And we're going to share experiences.
[03:04.850 --> 03:06.190]  We're going to share some tips.
[03:06.370 --> 03:08.430]  We're going to share how you can do the same thing.
[03:08.730 --> 03:14.270]  And really the importance of municipal politics and why everyone should be involved in that.
[03:15.850 --> 03:23.310]  So just to go over an overview of what we're going to be talking about today, we'll introduce ourselves a little bit more, talk about our bios.
[03:23.310 --> 03:27.890]  Then we're going to talk about political science 101, just to go over the basics.
[03:28.190 --> 03:34.350]  And then we're going to talk about integrated advocacy and what that actually looks like in the practical world.
[03:34.830 --> 03:41.790]  And then we're going to take a minute to look forward and think about what is the impact of this work and what is really the significance of it?
[03:41.890 --> 03:45.190]  And how is it going to take us to a better future?
[03:46.110 --> 03:50.970]  And then we're going to end with a power mapping exercise, which is an old organizing tool.
[03:52.010 --> 03:54.230]  But first, let's introduce ourselves.
[03:54.830 --> 03:55.590]  Chris, do you want to go ahead?
[03:58.610 --> 03:59.350]  Oh, no.
[04:00.230 --> 04:01.150]  Not the rock star.
[04:02.650 --> 04:03.130]  Is this on?
[04:03.350 --> 04:03.530]  Cool.
[04:04.070 --> 04:05.210]  Yeah, my name is Chris Wayland.
[04:05.370 --> 04:14.610]  I am a freelance nerd and I'm the co-chair of Restore the Fourth Minnesota, just the Minnesota chapter of the national Restore the Fourth sort of activist movement.
[04:16.770 --> 04:18.370]  And my name is Muneer Mohamed.
[04:18.550 --> 04:23.190]  Again, I work in my daytime for the ACLU Minnesota, the American Civil Liberties Union.
[04:23.590 --> 04:28.830]  I'm in the policy department, which really means we just do a lot of lobbying work for the organization.
[04:29.310 --> 04:42.690]  And then in my spare time, I've been involved with Restore the Fourth in their board and just trying to work out what it means to actually work in surveillance coalitions and data privacy coalitions nationwide.
[04:44.770 --> 04:45.570]  So, yeah.
[04:46.190 --> 04:49.850]  One of the things... Actually, so I guess going...
[04:49.850 --> 05:01.430]  One of the two sort of victories that we had that are not related to the ban on facial recognition is that the ACLU Minnesota just last year passed a student data privacy bill, which was really exciting.
[05:01.430 --> 05:12.110]  And Restore the Fourth Minnesota also did a bunch of work beating back an additional $5 million to our local Minnesota Fusion Center, which is just like a place to do joint-up surveillance stuff.
[05:13.210 --> 05:25.090]  And I think these victories are really attested to the fact that things have been gridlocked and locked at the national and state level for so long that a lot of our state houses and senates, really there's just no movement to be had.
[05:25.970 --> 05:29.750]  So, we've just found a lot of luck in municipal councils.
[05:30.650 --> 05:39.170]  So, to talk about like the timeline of how we actually started, introduced the ordinance and passed the ordinance for the facial recognition ban.
[05:39.810 --> 05:49.590]  We began in the spring and summer of 2020, which was pretty eventful, and we started this coalition called Safety Not Surveillance.
[05:50.770 --> 05:57.650]  And what we did was essentially found a star lawmaker, a star council member, who was kind of our champion in the Minneapolis Council.
[05:57.910 --> 06:05.050]  His name was Steve Fletcher, and he was kind of a tech guy, and he'd passed this resolution called the Data Privacy Principles.
[06:05.530 --> 06:14.070]  Kind of intentions... and resolutions, they're non-binding, but they're symbolic and they're meant to, you know, symbolize that the city is going in a new direction.
[06:14.070 --> 06:21.190]  So, we thought we'd capitalize on this moment after the resolution was passed and get some ordinances into law.
[06:21.470 --> 06:23.750]  So, we got the coalition together.
[06:23.810 --> 06:26.630]  We created a website, added people.
[06:27.050 --> 06:38.210]  And this was a mix of grassroots like police reform orgs, but also some university people and just a nice mix of orgs and collectives.
[06:39.030 --> 06:42.330]  And what happened really was kind of the unexpected.
[06:42.450 --> 06:45.810]  In 2020, of course, there was the George Floyd uprising.
[06:46.630 --> 06:51.230]  And it kind of represented a fork in the road for our coalition.
[06:51.590 --> 07:03.470]  You know, when we're talking about police reform, police brutality, brutality against protesters, really the last thing on people's mind is data privacy, surveillance, technology.
[07:03.770 --> 07:05.310]  It doesn't feel immediate.
[07:05.310 --> 07:07.710]  It doesn't feel like the moment.
[07:07.710 --> 07:15.190]  So, all of people's attention was on defund, abolition, getting cops off the street.
[07:15.530 --> 07:22.430]  And what really, really, what we wanted to do was pivot and say that, you know, it's not just the cop on the street, it's also the tools that they use.
[07:22.490 --> 07:24.350]  It's also the data that they have on you.
[07:24.810 --> 07:35.210]  So, what we had to do was essentially pull back from a much larger surveillance transparency and tech transparency bill called CCOPs.
[07:35.690 --> 07:38.710]  And we pivoted to facial recognition after this.
[07:38.830 --> 07:51.610]  And we really wanted to highlight the intersections of, like, police reform and technology when we're considering the monitoring and, like, surveillance of protesters, many who were, you know, minors at the time.
[07:52.310 --> 07:58.270]  So, that's why we pivoted to facial recognition and started to lobby and organize around that.
[07:58.890 --> 08:01.470]  And this is kind of just the steps that we took.
[08:01.610 --> 08:02.770]  It was a long process.
[08:02.770 --> 08:06.410]  And it's really never guaranteed the time frames.
[08:06.850 --> 08:09.810]  It's all about political will and keeping momentum.
[08:10.150 --> 08:20.450]  So, we had to negotiate language with the staff, which is pretty dicey when you're talking about city attorneys who are trying to cover the city's ass, you know, and don't really want to bring about any change.
[08:20.650 --> 08:25.370]  And then you're negotiating with the city clerks, as well, who are writing up the ordinance.
[08:25.910 --> 08:29.710]  And ordinances are just bills, but they call them ordinances at the local level.
[08:30.670 --> 08:35.230]  And while negotiating this, there's a lot of, like, behind the scenes, back door.
[08:35.390 --> 08:36.910]  You have to work out the language.
[08:37.090 --> 08:40.090]  But in that moment, you also have to engage with the community.
[08:40.090 --> 08:46.550]  You also have to keep momentum and pressure on these council members so that they know this isn't just your pet issue, right?
[08:46.730 --> 08:48.230]  So, we held a town hall.
[08:48.430 --> 08:56.310]  We held informational sessions for different wards on facial recognition, just trying to get people, like, their heads around why this is an issue.
[08:57.150 --> 09:04.830]  And once the language is finished and you work out the stuff behind the scenes and behind the closed doors, you start to foment public support for the bill.
[09:04.950 --> 09:06.110]  So, this is when it's introduced.
[09:06.110 --> 09:16.410]  This is when you got to get testimonies, fill the council chambers, really, you know, get some open letters, maybe in, you know, whatever publication newspaper is local.
[09:17.030 --> 09:20.490]  Really just make it a really mobilized effort.
[09:21.510 --> 09:24.750]  So, after that, you know, the vote was unanimous.
[09:24.850 --> 09:29.530]  We made a pretty strong argument that this facial recognition is a faulty technology.
[09:29.750 --> 09:33.850]  The error rates are absurd when it comes to non-white faces.
[09:34.490 --> 09:42.390]  And really, the point is that the council members should have much more control and oversight over what technology the police department but also the city uses.
[09:43.130 --> 09:46.410]  And that's a pretty hard argument to fight against.
[09:46.410 --> 09:50.950]  So, we got unanimous 13 votes, although the mayor did not sign it.
[09:51.210 --> 09:53.770]  But the mayor is in control of the police department.
[09:53.770 --> 09:57.510]  So, we weren't likely to get, like, executive support.
[09:58.450 --> 10:01.130]  And to be clear, it wasn't... the mayor didn't need to sign it.
[10:01.210 --> 10:02.330]  He didn't veto it either.
[10:02.790 --> 10:04.710]  In Minneapolis, at least, there's...
[10:04.710 --> 10:07.470]  He can sign it, he can just ignore it, or he can veto it.
[10:07.570 --> 10:10.030]  And he just ignored it, which is a de facto approval.
[10:10.530 --> 10:13.670]  We had 13 votes, so if he had vetoed it, we would just override the veto.
[10:14.430 --> 10:14.790]  So...
[10:14.790 --> 10:15.410]  True, true.
[10:15.630 --> 10:16.130]  Veto-proof.
[10:16.610 --> 10:18.450]  Yeah, you want to talk about poli-sci?
[10:18.610 --> 10:18.890]  Yeah.
[10:19.030 --> 10:24.850]  And so, that's actually an example of sort of poli-sci 101, is every municipality...
[10:24.850 --> 10:28.710]  And this was something that I sort of had to learn, because I'm not...
[10:28.710 --> 10:32.110]  I don't have a background in, like, activism, or...
[10:32.110 --> 10:33.750]  I didn't take poli-sci 101.
[10:34.550 --> 10:36.310]  So, I sort of had to teach all of this myself.
[10:36.310 --> 10:41.550]  But each municipality has its own sort of sets of rules and how it's structured, usually based around a charter.
[10:41.730 --> 10:45.790]  Some cities have, like, a strong mayor, or like a...
[10:45.790 --> 10:48.170]  Or sometimes some of them have, like, a city manager system.
[10:48.490 --> 10:57.750]  And what I want to encourage each of you to do is when you go back to your city and start thinking about engaging your council members or with your county, you sort of look at the structure of it.
[10:59.290 --> 11:01.050]  Usually, they'll be, like...
[11:01.050 --> 11:03.610]  They'll follow Robert's Rules of Order or something like that.
[11:05.290 --> 11:15.050]  Generally, what happens is they'll, like, draft a new ordinance, go to council, they'll have some deliberation, and then the mayor signs or vetoes or whatever.
[11:15.230 --> 11:16.910]  There's a process that you have to go through.
[11:18.030 --> 11:18.770]  Publicly, anyways.
[11:18.990 --> 11:22.670]  A lot of the work, though, is done not necessarily...
[11:22.670 --> 11:26.850]  A lot of, like, the hashing out of the details of an ordinance happens behind the scenes.
[11:27.650 --> 11:34.130]  So it's important to, A, understand, like, the official formal process that your city and that your municipality goes through.
[11:34.350 --> 11:42.190]  But it's also important to get to know the staff and get to know the council members and, like, suss out what that informal behind-the-scenes process is, too.
[11:42.570 --> 11:45.430]  For that, you really got to start to talk to the city bureaucrats, too.
[11:45.550 --> 11:48.250]  They have a lot of soft power.
[11:48.670 --> 11:53.370]  Yeah, and although this might seem incredibly dry to be like, what is my council makeup?
[11:53.390 --> 11:54.850]  What is the department's?
[11:54.850 --> 11:58.990]  You know, it really will identify the leverage points, the weak points.
[11:59.130 --> 12:04.390]  For example, you know, St. Paul, as opposed to Minneapolis, has a really strong mayor.
[12:04.570 --> 12:12.090]  So if we really just got in the pocket of Mayor Carter in St. Paul, we could ease our way to get the council members' votes.
[12:12.270 --> 12:18.910]  But in Minneapolis, there's a really antagonistic relationship between the council and the mayor.
[12:18.910 --> 12:22.730]  So you really have to pick your fights and figure out who you're allied with.
[12:23.150 --> 12:27.870]  And then just other really dry things like figuring out what city directors you need to talk with.
[12:28.010 --> 12:29.170]  There's so many committees.
[12:29.410 --> 12:31.370]  There's so many departments within each city.
[12:31.650 --> 12:33.670]  Each of them having some kind of purview.
[12:34.390 --> 12:36.150]  And they require feedback.
[12:36.430 --> 12:44.090]  And a really easy way to get voted down in any kind of bill or ordinance you introduce, is to say, people will come and say, oh, you didn't speak to us.
[12:44.090 --> 12:45.150]  You can't pass this.
[12:45.310 --> 12:46.910]  Oh, you didn't bring this to us.
[12:47.030 --> 12:48.570]  We didn't review this.
[12:48.750 --> 12:49.610]  This is too late.
[12:49.610 --> 12:58.190]  You know, it's a really... it's a delaying tactic that you can easily avoid by figuring out who the right people you need to speak to and speaking to them in a timely manner.
[12:58.410 --> 12:59.170]  It's a system.
[12:59.470 --> 13:03.510]  And it's... if you spend time... this is how I sort of convince myself to teach.
[13:03.630 --> 13:09.890]  It's like, oh, this is a complex system that I just need to poke at and prod and figure out in order to get to do what I want.
[13:10.010 --> 13:18.730]  So that's what I would encourage folks to do here to do is figure out what your local system is and where the weak points are and where you need to apply pressure and who you need to talk to.
[13:19.410 --> 13:29.510]  So once you map out the city government that you have in your locality, you really are going to talk about, you know, really understanding lobbying and what is lobbying.
[13:29.770 --> 13:33.710]  I put this kind of provocative image up there, and I really don't mean it.
[13:33.770 --> 13:35.430]  I actually mean the opposite of it.
[13:35.590 --> 13:42.130]  You see in the image, there's a money hand kind of puppeteering the politician, the cartoon politician.
[13:42.130 --> 13:44.950]  And I think this is what people think lobbying is.
[13:45.070 --> 13:46.350]  They think it's like Monsanto.
[13:46.350 --> 13:53.310]  They think it's the NRA giving like a ton of money to an election, to a campaign or a politician.
[13:53.310 --> 13:54.270]  And that's true.
[13:54.670 --> 13:56.470]  You know, that's like absolutely true.
[13:56.670 --> 14:05.490]  But lobbying is also something you do that is just about convincing people, persuading people to do what you want at the most basic level.
[14:05.490 --> 14:07.830]  You do it in your life all the time.
[14:08.010 --> 14:15.110]  You know, if there's a decision that you want to be made in like your friend group, you're going to lobby, you're going to go talk to people, you're going to, you know, organize.
[14:15.770 --> 14:21.210]  It's simply just persuasion to get, you know, what you want.
[14:22.370 --> 14:26.110]  And there's like technical stuff, but there's also just like strategy.
[14:26.250 --> 14:28.850]  And power mapping is a big part of that, you know.
[14:28.850 --> 14:34.370]  Power mapping is an old social justice, like organizing tool to figure out who the powerful people are.
[14:35.010 --> 14:39.310]  Who are the people who, you know, are your opposition?
[14:39.410 --> 14:43.350]  Who is the most invested?
[14:43.350 --> 14:44.690]  Who's the biggest stakeholder?
[14:44.990 --> 14:48.650]  Once you map out the political landscape, it's pretty easy to navigate it.
[14:48.830 --> 14:53.150]  And then it's pretty easy to persuade the right people or neutralize the right people.
[14:54.110 --> 14:59.470]  And so that's kind of the philosophy of lobbying, that it's just about persuasion and understanding power.
[14:59.670 --> 15:04.770]  But then the technical stuff of like, what does a lobbyist actually do, which is kind of everything.
[15:04.770 --> 15:10.070]  It's kind of whatever it takes to get what you want, which is a lot of management.
[15:10.070 --> 15:12.730]  So it's like getting meetings is the first thing, right?
[15:13.410 --> 15:16.670]  You know, you are only as powerful as the connections you have, right?
[15:16.670 --> 15:26.050]  And like working at the ACLU, obviously, it gives you a little bit of a, you know, leg up, because you do have this kind of institutional power where people will trust you.
[15:26.490 --> 15:31.890]  But getting meetings and being persistent about that is, you know, absolutely necessary.
[15:32.190 --> 15:46.590]  But then having like a pitch, having talking points, literally writing out talking points and giving them to your coalition, making sure people stay on message, you know, writing all of this out, putting together a detailed campaign plan of like, you know,
[15:46.670 --> 15:47.490]  what is the timeline?
[15:47.690 --> 15:48.550]  What are the goals?
[15:48.810 --> 15:51.070]  What is the opposition looking like?
[15:51.250 --> 15:56.190]  Literally managing this campaign to get what you want, which is this ordinance passed.
[15:56.690 --> 15:59.450]  And of course, the most important is maintaining relationships.
[15:59.970 --> 16:05.110]  You know, there are a million little fires in any kind of campaign that you have.
[16:05.190 --> 16:07.770]  And it's really kind of dumb shit sometimes, you know?
[16:07.950 --> 16:10.370]  It's like, oh, this politician doesn't like this other one.
[16:10.450 --> 16:12.190]  They don't want to be on the same bill or something.
[16:12.190 --> 16:15.570]  Or, you know, they don't like this organization that you're working with.
[16:15.770 --> 16:25.150]  It's just managing those relationships and the kind of personal, less formal aspects of politics is what the lobbyist job is.
[16:27.490 --> 16:29.330]  And now we're going to talk about advocacy.
[16:30.570 --> 16:31.610]  Chris, take it away.
[16:32.190 --> 16:36.190]  Yeah, so, and also just a quick asterisk on lobbying.
[16:36.190 --> 16:39.430]  I mean, you can be a lobbyist.
[16:39.490 --> 16:40.430]  Anyone can be a lobbyist.
[16:41.510 --> 16:43.270]  Especially if you're a constituent of a lawmaker.
[16:43.650 --> 16:44.670]  Lawmakers need to...
[16:44.670 --> 16:46.370]  Money can't buy elections.
[16:46.570 --> 16:49.750]  They can just buy ads, which is very useful and powerful.
[16:49.930 --> 16:52.110]  And like a politician's main goal is to get reelected.
[16:52.290 --> 16:54.850]  That's how they stay in office.
[16:54.950 --> 16:56.190]  That's how they exercise their power.
[16:56.190 --> 16:59.710]  And so if you are a constituent and you go to your council member and you say, I want you to...
[16:59.710 --> 17:00.750]  I want to talk to you about this.
[17:02.970 --> 17:03.870]  Depending on the...
[17:03.870 --> 17:07.490]  Like if you're a senator, they get millions of these and you'll just be one raindrop.
[17:07.610 --> 17:08.270]  But if you're...
[17:08.270 --> 17:11.710]  I mean, it's not meaningless per se, but you know, all of that.
[17:12.310 --> 17:16.090]  Like if they get a couple hundred calls from a constituent, they will make note of that.
[17:16.090 --> 17:17.370]  If you're like a one...
[17:17.370 --> 17:29.550]  If you're like at the city and at the local level, depending on the size of your city, like three or four people coming to a council member to talk about their one issue, if they're all constituents, they will pay real close attention to that.
[17:29.710 --> 17:34.630]  Because three or four people is a lot of people for a city council member in a lot of cases.
[17:35.650 --> 17:36.850]  So you have...
[17:36.850 --> 17:42.230]  At the local level, you have a lot more power, especially the folks here in this room.
[17:42.230 --> 17:48.730]  If you have any kind of technical expertise and you're talking about an issue that relates to your knowledge of domain, you're an expert.
[17:49.230 --> 17:49.710]  You know...
[17:50.170 --> 17:52.650]  Chances are you know more about this stuff than they do.
[17:53.070 --> 17:58.850]  If they dismiss you out of hand, there's a good chance they will get some blowback and won't get reelected.
[17:59.010 --> 18:02.370]  You can't just ignore your constituents and expect to get reelected.
[18:04.290 --> 18:05.170]  Like they're...
[18:05.170 --> 18:07.030]  You know, it's just not good politics.
[18:07.650 --> 18:11.810]  They might not listen to you, they might not do what you want, but they won't ignore you.
[18:11.810 --> 18:17.050]  Or if they do, then I would suggest that you start telling your neighbors that they're just blowing you off.
[18:17.150 --> 18:18.610]  And maybe hopefully get them out of office.
[18:19.730 --> 18:20.090]  So...
[18:20.090 --> 18:24.290]  But the first step of this is like identifying what it is that you want to do.
[18:24.830 --> 18:25.970]  And for this, I should...
[18:25.970 --> 18:28.130]  Like we are focused on surveillance stuff.
[18:28.290 --> 18:30.150]  So net... and surveillance technology in particular.
[18:30.610 --> 18:31.810]  So obviously we're gonna...
[18:31.810 --> 18:36.470]  We would like it if you were doing stuff like, Hey, we should ban facial recognition or government use of facial recognition.
[18:36.630 --> 18:40.950]  We should make it so that cops can't do X, Y, Z with creepy technology, Y, or whatever.
[18:41.530 --> 18:43.330]  But it can be broadband access.
[18:43.550 --> 18:47.830]  It can be government use of free and open source software.
[18:48.030 --> 18:53.110]  It can be anything that you're passionate about and know a lot about that you think should change at the local level.
[18:54.810 --> 18:55.610]  Looking at...
[18:57.210 --> 19:01.370]  And I think another big question that you need to ask yourself is, Do I want to go this alone?
[19:01.850 --> 19:02.850]  Do I want to...
[19:02.850 --> 19:06.210]  Or do I have friends that I can start like a local group on?
[19:06.830 --> 19:10.850]  Start like a local advocacy org like neighbors for broadband...
[19:11.430 --> 19:14.250]  Neighbors for fiber access in this jurisdiction.
[19:15.610 --> 19:16.510]  Going to...
[19:16.510 --> 19:16.850]  And then...
[19:17.690 --> 19:19.290]  Or do you volunteer for an existing org?
[19:19.490 --> 19:21.250]  Like I...
[19:21.250 --> 19:24.710]  When I got started, I rebooted the local chapter of Restore the Fourth.
[19:24.710 --> 19:28.730]  And I think that that was really good for us because Restore the Fourth is like distributed.
[19:29.510 --> 19:31.270]  We have chapters all throughout the country, right?
[19:31.310 --> 19:39.530]  And so I was able to like tap into an existing Restore the Fourth infrastructure and volunteer list and get reimbursed for some expenses and all that good jazz.
[19:40.030 --> 19:41.370]  You could also like...
[19:41.370 --> 19:43.330]  You can sort of start a local thing.
[19:43.550 --> 19:46.870]  You can volunteer with your local ACLU or with...
[19:46.870 --> 19:52.550]  Like if you're based in New York City, some great orgs are like the EFF or STOP or the Surveillance Technology Oversight Project.
[19:55.110 --> 19:59.890]  Going in alone can be good for some local things, but you're much more powerful if you have...
[19:59.890 --> 20:06.390]  Just like a pool of two or three of your friends who are like willing to every so often sit down and brainstorm ideas for stuff.
[20:07.250 --> 20:08.670]  And then doing that periodically.
[20:08.670 --> 20:18.550]  So once you've figured out what you want to do and like sort of have a rough game plan for how you're going to tackle getting this thing passed, that's really important.
[20:18.790 --> 20:19.590]  If you don't...
[20:20.290 --> 20:24.370]  You know, making it big and broad and not just trying to jump in to the deep end.
[20:24.990 --> 20:25.350]  Yeah.
[20:25.510 --> 20:29.310]  And I think that last line, don't be afraid to pivot, is incredibly important.
[20:29.590 --> 20:33.310]  You know, it took us close to a year and a half to get this done.
[20:33.310 --> 20:35.030]  And it wasn't our original goal.
[20:35.170 --> 20:36.870]  Facial recognition was not our original goal.
[20:36.870 --> 20:44.330]  We wanted a much broader build that encompassed facial recognition, but that created an oversight structure so that it could capture emerging technology.
[20:44.570 --> 20:49.270]  And we wouldn't have to play this game of whack-a-mole by, you know, banning one technology at a time.
[20:49.270 --> 20:58.970]  But, you know, you have this incredible historic moment with the killing of George Floyd and now everybody's attention is focused on something else.
[20:59.170 --> 21:04.370]  You have to pivot and you have to, you know, rebrand and you have to, you know, remessage.
[21:04.790 --> 21:13.310]  And, you know, begin again and figure out, like, how can I still get something I want, but in this kind of new container, in this new vehicle, in this new package.
[21:16.640 --> 21:22.880]  Yeah, don't, if you, if you feel like you have to go to loan, you, you, that's a, that is an option.
[21:22.880 --> 21:25.880]  And if you have the time and the energy and the resources, you can go to loan.
[21:26.320 --> 21:29.660]  Coalition building, though, working with your neighbors, working with other activist groups.
[21:30.260 --> 21:32.300]  That is where the real power in politics is.
[21:32.440 --> 21:35.840]  That is where, if you can get a group like we, like the Safety Not Surveillance Coalition.
[21:36.140 --> 21:38.800]  We've got, like, the ACLU, Restore the Father, obviously, our two orgs.
[21:38.840 --> 21:41.840]  But there's also communities united against police brutality.
[21:42.240 --> 21:44.440]  There's a Council on American Islamic Relations.
[21:44.760 --> 21:49.000]  There's, I am, Jewish Community Action.
[21:49.160 --> 21:54.920]  There's just a whole bunch of other, and I'm sure that they all get mad at me for forgetting the names of their orgs.
[21:55.040 --> 22:01.040]  But if you go, like, on our website, you can see, like, there's a, like, I think there's eight different orgs that regularly attend our meetings.
[22:01.240 --> 22:06.800]  And they don't even necessarily have to be directly related to the advocacy topic that you're talking about.
[22:06.800 --> 22:12.120]  If they're willing to just sort of sign on to a letter for, especially, like, with civil rights stuff.
[22:12.260 --> 22:20.600]  Just because when you get a bunch of these different orgs together, you can pool resources and all these big name orgs signing on to an open letter.
[22:21.560 --> 22:26.200]  It's much more powerful than, even if you are an expert, just you going to talk to your Council Member.
[22:26.520 --> 22:30.820]  Yeah, and we have to think about building relationships again, which is kind of the main thing, right?
[22:31.020 --> 22:33.400]  So, who do you need to build a relationship with?
[22:33.400 --> 22:34.940]  Who will give you the most leverage?
[22:34.940 --> 22:37.480]  You know, and don't be afraid to be, like, calculating.
[22:37.580 --> 22:44.360]  You know, if a particular Council Member likes a certain organization, make sure you're friendly with that organization.
[22:44.380 --> 22:46.440]  Maybe get them on your coalition, you know?
[22:46.880 --> 22:50.000]  Build a team that will help you achieve your goals, really.
[22:53.040 --> 22:55.380]  And we do have, like, a little coalition explainer.
[22:55.480 --> 22:58.500]  So, if you guys go on the website, I think we have this slide.
[22:58.500 --> 23:00.640]  Yeah, I'll upload this slide deck onto the HOPE Wiki, too.
[23:00.860 --> 23:01.120]  Right.
[23:01.120 --> 23:01.380]  Yeah.
[23:01.580 --> 23:05.640]  So, there's a good little primer and explainer on coalition building 101.
[23:07.720 --> 23:09.560]  I can talk about community engagement.
[23:09.780 --> 23:13.240]  So, community engagement is obviously going to be incredibly important.
[23:13.240 --> 23:16.140]  It's kind of the organizing tool that you have.
[23:16.220 --> 23:18.600]  And it's going to be when you go public, right?
[23:18.760 --> 23:30.080]  And it's really important that, like, when you come to the time that you have to go public, that you have to build support, that you have to mobilize kind of a base that will be vocal and loud.
[23:30.080 --> 23:32.460]  You really have to get into community engagement.
[23:33.080 --> 23:41.720]  And the first thing when we're talking about, especially surveillance, data privacy, tech, digital rights, we're kind of working with the knowledge gap.
[23:41.720 --> 23:44.940]  And we're working with, you know, accessibility issues.
[23:45.100 --> 23:47.720]  And it's like, does the public even understand your issue?
[23:47.940 --> 23:49.600]  Do they know the ins and outs of it?
[23:49.680 --> 23:50.460]  Do they care?
[23:50.920 --> 23:53.580]  And this is all when organizing comes into it.
[23:53.580 --> 23:56.100]  And you can do, like, a variety of things.
[23:56.240 --> 23:57.560]  You know, you can have town halls.
[23:57.560 --> 23:59.660]  You can have little park discussions.
[23:59.760 --> 24:05.440]  You can do some press, some social media, you know, get a Twitter page going.
[24:05.440 --> 24:07.720]  Just how are you connecting with people?
[24:07.760 --> 24:08.940]  How are you talking to people?
[24:09.160 --> 24:10.640]  And do they even know about you?
[24:10.760 --> 24:12.640]  Are you a presence in your community?
[24:13.420 --> 24:16.940]  You know, and this is kind of where you live or die, you know, by.
[24:17.820 --> 24:19.700]  Because you can't do it alone.
[24:19.700 --> 24:26.260]  When you're talking about municipal politics, anyone that is a lone actor is, you know, considered suspicious.
[24:26.700 --> 24:28.080]  Nobody's going to listen to you.
[24:28.240 --> 24:31.620]  It is only, you know, you have to have people that vouch for you.
[24:31.760 --> 24:39.120]  And having a packed council room of just, like, regular people that work a nine-to-five is incredibly powerful.
[24:43.560 --> 24:48.260]  And, like, community organizing, doing outreach, that thing, not my skill set.
[24:49.580 --> 25:00.140]  When we started this coalition, it was like I reached out to a bunch of folks at the ACLU and just kept, you know, ACLU gets a lot of emails.
[25:00.340 --> 25:02.440]  And I just kept bugging them until I got a meeting with them.
[25:03.440 --> 25:08.480]  And eventually, me and Curtis, my co-chair at Restore the Fourth, we just, we got a meeting with someone from the ACLU.
[25:08.560 --> 25:10.680]  And it's like, we've got this model bill that we want to push.
[25:10.680 --> 25:12.440]  We've got a couple other orgs who have signed on to it.
[25:12.540 --> 25:14.080]  We're just, we want to push for this.
[25:14.340 --> 25:21.100]  And, like, the ACLU and the other orgs in the coalition are the ones with the massive listservs.
[25:21.160 --> 25:22.980]  And they, you know, they did a lot of that.
[25:22.980 --> 25:34.680]  And Restore the Fourth and our sort of my, what I sort of see as my role is the, all of the infrastructure for the website that we put up.
[25:34.840 --> 25:40.920]  Like, when we do, we often run the tech background when we do public meetings and stuff like that.
[25:43.100 --> 25:50.720]  But the, it is, it's not necessarily, like, Muneer was talking about how important it is to do that community engagement stuff.
[25:51.020 --> 26:05.360]  You, if you can find someone who's better at that than you and lean on them while you handle a lot of the back, like, the hosting and the expertise and the helping with the language, don't necessarily feel like you specifically have to do all of the community engagement.
[26:05.360 --> 26:10.080]  If you can find someone who's better at that than you are, have them do it.
[26:11.780 --> 26:16.360]  But, and there are specific ways that a technologist can help out these kinds of communities.
[26:16.500 --> 26:26.260]  Like, the big one for me is, it is astonishing to me how often local community groups have a thing that they are pushing and they don't have a dedicated website to push for that topic.
[26:27.740 --> 26:34.840]  Fight for the Future is, like, a national org that's very good about, like, setting up individual websites for their individual campaign pushes.
[26:34.840 --> 26:37.520]  And that's, like, it's not that hard to buy a domain and set up a website.
[26:37.660 --> 26:38.440]  We know how to do this stuff.
[26:40.480 --> 26:42.620]  The other thing, the big thing is being the expert in the room.
[26:42.840 --> 26:47.200]  Knowing all of the technical ins and outs and being able to explain to a non-ex...
[26:47.200 --> 26:53.080]  The tricky part is usually just explaining the complicated technical thing to the person who is the technical expert.
[26:53.420 --> 26:58.260]  And that's why, like, helping to build the website and making sure that everything's clear on the website is very useful.
[27:00.440 --> 27:03.560]  Infrastructure, you know, just helping in setting up that digital infrastructure.
[27:04.480 --> 27:14.640]  I put down fixing printers, basic IT stuff, because a lot of groups like the ACLU and other community orgs, if you volunteer... they usually don't have dedicated IT staff.
[27:14.880 --> 27:17.560]  Never mind, like, security professionals.
[27:18.040 --> 27:27.100]  So, if you are... if you can do that stuff for them, I guarantee... they would probably be very interested in accepting that help.
[27:27.100 --> 27:29.460]  The last one I put down is adversarial tech.
[27:29.700 --> 27:37.640]  This is, in my mind, things like Croc Hunter, which is like a Raspberry Pi that helps you detect stingrays.
[27:38.220 --> 27:45.840]  There's... there's interesting... there are interesting apps and interesting technologies that you can use and help develop that will help whatever thing that you're pushing for.
[27:45.840 --> 27:56.100]  But, as a rule, I find techno solution... the universe of actual, like, technological solutions to, like, local organizing problems is actually fairly small.
[27:56.440 --> 28:11.220]  It's better to... when you're trying to exercise political power, it's better to do that through community organizing and through helping and through, like, getting those local law passed rather than trying to develop an app and then trying to get all of your neighbors to install it or something.
[28:11.920 --> 28:19.320]  If you're gonna do tech... if you're gonna, like, help out with tech stuff, it's important to listen to whoever it is that you're partnering with.
[28:20.700 --> 28:21.140]  So...
[28:21.140 --> 28:26.000]  Yeah, and I see it really as a symbiotic relationship that, again, has to be maintained.
[28:26.000 --> 28:31.380]  So, when we're talking about, like, coalitions, and I'll get into the problems later.
[28:31.800 --> 28:34.180]  But when we're talking about coalitions, they're gonna be different people.
[28:34.380 --> 28:37.860]  And having technologists like Chris is incredibly important, right?
[28:37.860 --> 28:45.050]  But people, like, you know, we all have kind of, you know, our strengths and weaknesses.
[28:45.880 --> 28:45.900]  Yeah.
[28:46.460 --> 28:53.700]  So, if I'm, like, the lobbyist on the coalition, you know, I'm gonna make sure I get the meetings, I'm gonna make sure people stay on message.
[28:54.160 --> 28:59.880]  I'm gonna... and then I'll just throw to Chris for, like, the technical stuff and, like, the really explaining, like, what is the issue here.
[28:59.880 --> 29:04.760]  So, it should be a symbiotic relationship where people have their role, people play their part.
[29:05.100 --> 29:10.980]  And don't really bogart or, like, go into other areas, because then it's just not, you know, effective.
[29:11.580 --> 29:15.620]  And Chris is right, you know, if there was an app to solve everything, that would be great.
[29:16.620 --> 29:23.700]  But there isn't, and it's gonna take, like, a lot of, like, messy political, like, work and organizing work to get it done.
[29:25.000 --> 29:28.240]  And I want to take a minute now to talk about the pitfalls and problems.
[29:28.440 --> 29:33.920]  I feel like we've been painting a pretty rosy picture about municipal politics, but it isn't easy.
[29:35.580 --> 29:40.740]  And I think the problems that I want to highlight, one, the jurisdiction, right?
[29:40.960 --> 29:45.760]  If you have a smaller jurisdiction, there's gonna be loopholes, there's gonna be limited impact.
[29:46.100 --> 29:53.000]  For example, we passed a facial recognition ban, but does that solve the problem of police using facial recognition?
[29:53.000 --> 29:53.920]  It doesn't.
[29:54.000 --> 29:55.900]  We still have the sheriffs.
[29:55.900 --> 29:56.920]  We still have the county.
[29:57.100 --> 29:57.940]  We still have the state.
[29:58.120 --> 30:01.940]  We have all these kind of, you know, opaque agencies.
[30:01.940 --> 30:03.560]  We have the fusion centers.
[30:03.840 --> 30:14.900]  There's so many points of data sharing that, really, working at, like, one city is not going to solve the issue of facial recognition and surveillance, right?
[30:14.900 --> 30:21.380]  So, but the idea is that you are, you know, scaling this upwards, which I think we'll talk about later.
[30:21.540 --> 30:29.280]  So that if you, for example, if you pass a facial recognition ban in Minneapolis and St. Paul, that's like the metro area, right?
[30:29.280 --> 30:30.440]  That's a lot of people.
[30:30.540 --> 30:33.700]  That's like 55% of the people in the state live there.
[30:33.860 --> 30:34.820]  That's a mandate.
[30:34.920 --> 30:41.140]  That's a mandate that you can then take to the state legislature and say, look at what we did in Minneapolis and St. Paul.
[30:41.140 --> 30:50.120]  And then take that work product, take that organizing pace, take that people power and scale upwards to the state and hopefully nationally, right?
[30:50.320 --> 30:55.420]  So, while it is a limited impact and it isn't a panacea, it's not going to solve everything.
[30:55.720 --> 30:56.800]  It's the momentum.
[30:56.800 --> 30:59.160]  It's the, like, one step at a time.
[30:59.200 --> 31:01.340]  And it's kind of building up from the ground, right?
[31:02.160 --> 31:04.700]  I think another problem is coalitions, right?
[31:04.840 --> 31:06.740]  Coalitions are incredibly messy.
[31:06.920 --> 31:08.120]  They're incredibly fragile.
[31:08.120 --> 31:14.800]  It's just a lot of interpersonal conflict and bullshit that you have to navigate through just to get to, like, the work.
[31:14.980 --> 31:19.620]  And then there's just, like, keeping a coalition of people that this isn't their day job.
[31:19.720 --> 31:21.020]  They're not getting paid for this.
[31:21.260 --> 31:23.020]  You know, they're volunteering their time.
[31:23.580 --> 31:28.900]  And how do you keep momentum over a year, over two years that you're trying to pass this bill?
[31:29.560 --> 31:32.780]  And you've got to keep this coalition intact, you know?
[31:32.780 --> 31:44.200]  And then there's also the really, really large issue that when you're talking about surveillance and these kind of tech tools, you're talking about taking tools away from the police.
[31:44.380 --> 31:49.080]  And as we've seen, I feel like we're kind of living through a backlash of 2020.
[31:50.120 --> 31:55.860]  And I feel like the middle class, the white middle class, has been incredibly spooked, right?
[31:55.860 --> 32:00.580]  If you even mention police reform, it's equated to abolition, you know?
[32:00.760 --> 32:09.020]  And once you hear that, you know, you're taking a tool away from the police to do their jobs, that's an incredibly powerful talking point.
[32:09.020 --> 32:12.160]  And that's one that you're going to have to constantly fight against.
[32:12.580 --> 32:16.780]  So law enforcement opposition, obviously a huge barrier.
[32:18.160 --> 32:25.380]  And I think the lastly, it's like lawmakers lack knowledge of like technical surveillance data issues.
[32:25.580 --> 32:31.100]  I mean, a lot of cities don't even have like IT or a technical officer.
[32:31.980 --> 32:34.180]  I think we just got one in Minneapolis.
[32:34.800 --> 32:39.760]  And we have the issue of like, is surveillance even like a campaign platform issue?
[32:39.760 --> 32:48.580]  You know, once we go to these lawmakers, these council members, these senators, you know, they'll be like, oh, my constituents don't talk to me about that.
[32:48.780 --> 32:51.220]  When I go for election, nobody asks me about that.
[32:51.300 --> 32:52.860]  There's no questionnaires about this.
[32:52.940 --> 32:54.400]  There's no debates about this.
[32:54.480 --> 32:55.820]  Like, why is this an issue?
[32:56.120 --> 32:56.700]  You know?
[32:56.920 --> 33:04.720]  And if they don't see that, like people asking questions about surveillance, data privacy, tech, digital civil rights, you know, it's not an issue.
[33:04.780 --> 33:05.520]  It's a non-issue.
[33:06.080 --> 33:08.440]  So it's like lack of knowledge and lack of awareness.
[33:08.440 --> 33:15.440]  And these are things, problems you'll have to just like constantly manage throughout the life of this campaign.
[33:18.370 --> 33:23.630]  But now to look forward and to maybe ask some broader questions about like what we're trying to do here.
[33:27.190 --> 33:32.110]  So Chris, if you want to go through like other potential policy areas beyond facial recognition.
[33:32.310 --> 33:36.950]  Like I mentioned earlier, there's a whole list of policy areas.
[33:38.170 --> 33:43.670]  Bruce Schneier has this great, I think it's a DEFCON talk, you know, the need for public interest technologists.
[33:44.050 --> 33:45.490]  Everything is becoming a computer.
[33:45.750 --> 33:51.830]  And so like everything, everything that is policy has like a good technological component to it.
[33:51.830 --> 33:58.550]  And the idea, you know, there's a great book called Code is Law by Lauren Flessig and all this goes up.
[33:58.810 --> 34:00.950]  There's like a gajillion different areas.
[34:01.050 --> 34:03.030]  Like our thing is surveillance and technology.
[34:03.190 --> 34:06.750]  But there's a gajillion different areas that as technologists we have an interest in.
[34:06.750 --> 34:09.850]  The criminalization of security research is a big one.
[34:10.110 --> 34:14.110]  Just generic consumer privacy like the Cal...
[34:14.110 --> 34:18.590]  Like the many states are working on like their state version of the GDPR.
[34:18.910 --> 34:22.790]  There's like a really terrible Microsoft bill that keeps getting pushed in different states.
[34:23.190 --> 34:29.350]  Maybe you could just fight against that and like push for a consumer privacy bill that actually has meaningful teeth to it.
[34:29.630 --> 34:30.630]  There's right to repair.
[34:30.630 --> 34:34.730]  There's a whole bunch of different talks at this conference talking about how the importance of right to repair.
[34:34.870 --> 34:39.450]  And that's a big, another great bipartisan sort of, you know, farmers.
[34:39.470 --> 34:41.930]  We should be able to fix their own frigging tractors and whatever.
[34:42.510 --> 34:50.490]  There's Section 230 and FISA like these mass national surveillance, you know, robotics, climate change, food safety, AI, bioengineering.
[34:50.630 --> 34:57.610]  There's like a gajillion different topics that if you're interested in, you can probably find a way to advocate for change at the local or county or state level.
[34:59.050 --> 35:01.550]  Obviously, we care about surveillance and surveillance technology.
[35:01.730 --> 35:07.770]  But if you're passionate about, hey, your local city, you should be using more free and open source software.
[35:08.090 --> 35:15.010]  There's a whole community of people out here who will help you do your stuff if you just like stopped relying on Microsoft to be your vendors or whatever.
[35:15.110 --> 35:15.810]  You can push for that.
[35:15.950 --> 35:18.950]  And I bet they would be very interested in the fact that they can use free software.
[35:19.190 --> 35:23.230]  As in, they're probably more interested in the free as in free beer, but you know, whatever.
[35:26.150 --> 35:30.070]  So to ask the big questions, why aren't there more coalitions like this?
[35:30.090 --> 35:34.910]  Why isn't there just like an abundance of tech and digital rights coalitions?
[35:35.150 --> 35:39.130]  Why isn't this like an issue at the local level for everyday people?
[35:39.250 --> 35:42.110]  Considering we're all on the Internet, we all use technology.
[35:42.110 --> 35:45.910]  It's just like an omnipresent factor of our lives.
[35:46.470 --> 35:59.930]  And yet, you know, when I look at like the political landscape in cities, it's a lot of, you know, labor unions, police reform groups, but not a lot focusing on surveillance and data.
[35:59.930 --> 36:11.550]  And I think the reasons for this of like why this issue is so scarce at the grassroots level is that obviously it feels really large, but that there's just like a knowledge gap and that the social awareness isn't there.
[36:11.850 --> 36:19.110]  You know, it's I think when you're being spied on, it feels like it's just like in the back of your mind.
[36:19.110 --> 36:20.550]  It's not an immediate concern.
[36:20.550 --> 36:25.510]  It's not like it's not a it doesn't equate to like the cop pointing a gun at your face.
[36:25.510 --> 36:28.610]  Yeah, it's like smog, right?
[36:28.690 --> 36:32.610]  It's like this background thing that harms you not not in the media.
[36:32.770 --> 36:36.770]  It's just like this constant background thing that you notice from time to time.
[36:36.930 --> 36:39.550]  And it's slowly poisoning your lungs and giving you cancer.
[36:39.750 --> 36:45.210]  Like the harm is not immediate and felt, but like violations of privacy and constant state surveillance.
[36:45.370 --> 36:48.070]  There are real costs to our freedoms and our civil liberties.
[36:49.730 --> 36:51.190]  It's just not as acute.
[36:51.210 --> 36:53.270]  And so it doesn't feel as urgent.
[36:53.270 --> 36:54.130]  Yeah.
[36:54.370 --> 37:07.530]  And I think the solution really is forming ourselves in these collectives and demanding that this gets awareness and demanding that these issues be addressed, you know, and really exercising political power, making sure we pull our resources together,
[37:07.530 --> 37:13.390]  which is another huge like boon of just having people together is that you have more resources.
[37:13.390 --> 37:14.230]  You have more money.
[37:14.370 --> 37:15.150]  You have more power.
[37:15.650 --> 37:18.550]  And what you really get is popular support, right?
[37:19.150 --> 37:24.250]  Instead of this being a niche issue, instead of this being in the background, you know, like the smog that Chris said.
[37:24.490 --> 37:26.250]  This is in the forefront of people's minds.
[37:26.430 --> 37:30.210]  And we can, you know, fabricate that demand if people...
[37:30.210 --> 37:33.410]  We can organize for that demand and we can make that clear.
[37:33.590 --> 37:35.450]  You know, and we can bring hackers together.
[37:35.450 --> 37:37.150]  We can bring nonprofits together.
[37:37.150 --> 37:42.750]  We can bring the organizer on the streets together, labor unions, small businesses.
[37:43.270 --> 37:52.790]  You know, it's really once we're at like the nexus of all of these people and these collectives and these groups that we can actually move things and we can create change.
[37:54.830 --> 38:00.530]  Yeah, so I think this is optimistic, but what we're really trying to do is a digital revolution from the ground up.
[38:00.710 --> 38:04.170]  And really, like I said, just increasing the consciousness.
[38:04.410 --> 38:11.970]  Even if you don't get anything done, you don't get the bill passed, you don't get the ordinance passed, you know, you don't get that budget that you wanted.
[38:12.550 --> 38:17.170]  Just putting this on the map for everyday people is an incredible benefit.
[38:17.170 --> 38:19.350]  And it's a win for everybody, right?
[38:19.350 --> 38:30.610]  Having, you know, the Starbucks worker or the target worker care about surveillance and data privacy is incredibly useful for like a national org that's working with a congressman.
[38:31.630 --> 38:36.030]  Local bases are really how change is made and they're how mass movements come together.
[38:36.270 --> 38:39.950]  And it's how you get national and global wins, you know, from the bottom up.
[38:42.730 --> 38:44.530]  So thank you for listening to that.
[38:44.710 --> 38:48.850]  We're going to do a little power mapping exercise and we'll also do some Q&A while we're at it.
[38:48.850 --> 38:49.070]  Yeah.
[38:50.130 --> 38:50.570]  So...
[38:50.570 --> 38:52.250]  Actually, let's quick swap here.
[38:52.490 --> 38:52.830]  Yes, sir.
[38:53.910 --> 39:05.850]  But I think what I want to do is sort of just highlight, go through the process of doing some power mapping, which is, or like sort of what I do when...
[39:06.650 --> 39:07.090]  Ah.
[39:08.250 --> 39:08.830]  Oh, boy.
[39:08.890 --> 39:11.650]  I'm not used to Apple stuff, but let's see how fun this is.
[39:12.930 --> 39:16.730]  So basically, I just wanted to give the...
[39:16.730 --> 39:17.770]  Let's see, the process...
[39:17.770 --> 39:19.510]  My process of doing power mapping...
[39:19.510 --> 39:20.970]  Power mapping is going to be different for everybody.
[39:21.350 --> 39:22.030]  I lost the thread.
[39:22.310 --> 39:22.830]  Oh, no.
[39:29.810 --> 39:30.210]  Okay.
[39:30.410 --> 39:30.830]  There it is.
[39:31.450 --> 39:31.850]  But...
[39:32.450 --> 39:32.850]  No.
[39:33.030 --> 39:33.210]  Oh, no.
[39:33.250 --> 39:33.630]  It's not there.
[39:34.070 --> 39:34.370]  Eh.
[39:34.550 --> 39:35.550]  I lost the slides.
[39:40.750 --> 39:42.130]  I don't know anything about Apple.
[39:45.710 --> 39:46.650]  Essentially, it's OSINT.
[39:46.930 --> 39:48.290]  You find...
[39:48.290 --> 39:58.690]  Google your friggin' city council, and then make a list of all the council members, and then copy-paste their names onto a document.
[39:58.690 --> 39:59.570]  You can do this right now.
[39:59.750 --> 40:00.870]  I'm going to do it right now.
[40:02.290 --> 40:03.350]  Actually, there is...
[40:03.350 --> 40:03.710]  Let's see.
[40:04.290 --> 40:08.010]  Best Buy is based in Minnesota.
[40:16.560 --> 40:17.260]  There we go.
[40:17.260 --> 40:19.460]  Where is Best Buy based?
[40:19.960 --> 40:22.260]  Looks like it's based in Richfield.
[40:23.180 --> 40:23.380]  Okay.
[40:23.680 --> 40:23.720]  Huh.
[40:24.380 --> 40:24.860]  Richfield.
[40:26.700 --> 40:29.060]  Richfield City Council members.
[40:30.820 --> 40:35.580]  Behold the magic of activism.
[40:35.580 --> 40:39.280]  This is what some people get paid millions of dollars a year to do.
[40:39.600 --> 40:41.180]  I don't actually know if that's true or not.
[40:41.220 --> 40:41.580]  It's true.
[40:41.700 --> 40:47.080]  People do get paid an inordinate amount of money to do this, and they really don't need to, and you can do it too.
[40:47.840 --> 40:48.880]  But so basically...
[40:48.880 --> 40:49.940]  I shouldn't be paid to do this.
[40:50.380 --> 40:57.360]  Normally, I'd pull up a notepad and literally just copy-paste all of these people's, their names and their contact information into a document.
[40:57.540 --> 40:59.940]  So, the mayor is probably very powerful.
[41:00.120 --> 41:01.260]  Let's just...
[41:01.260 --> 41:05.060]  The next step, generally, is find their campaign website.
[41:05.060 --> 41:05.120]  Right.
[41:05.380 --> 41:08.400]  Because what we're looking for right now is we're looking for...
[41:08.400 --> 41:11.580]  We're assuming that we've decided on something that we want to pass.
[41:12.060 --> 41:16.800]  A facial recognition ban, you know, you've already got in mind what you want to do.
[41:16.920 --> 41:23.100]  But now we're looking for like a hero, someone to introduce or to be like your primary point of contact.
[41:23.100 --> 41:25.040]  So, let's look up this mayor.
[41:35.560 --> 41:36.000]  Well...
[41:37.520 --> 41:38.400]  If folks...
[41:38.400 --> 41:38.800]  So, yeah.
[41:38.880 --> 41:40.160]  This is basically the process.
[41:40.400 --> 41:42.600]  Mayor campaign website.
[41:44.880 --> 41:45.320]  Cool.
[41:46.220 --> 41:47.060]  Oh, interesting.
[41:49.200 --> 41:51.340]  So, she's not going to...
[41:52.660 --> 41:53.960]  She's not going to seek re-election.
[41:54.180 --> 41:54.340]  Okay.
[41:54.620 --> 41:55.760]  So, she's probably...
[41:55.760 --> 41:59.020]  Then I would just note that she's not seeking re-election.
[41:59.020 --> 42:06.360]  So, literally, like what I'm doing right now, going through and Googling every single friggin' council member and noting down their contact information for later.
[42:06.500 --> 42:07.820]  This is the process.
[42:08.600 --> 42:09.040]  Yeah.
[42:11.360 --> 42:13.440]  I guess, does anyone have any...
[42:14.760 --> 42:16.400]  Does anyone have any questions for us?
[42:17.480 --> 42:21.320]  Well, before we get into that, I would like to show just like one image.
[42:21.520 --> 42:21.660]  Excuse me.
[42:21.940 --> 42:26.000]  I would like to show just one image of like what power mapping actually looks like.
[42:26.560 --> 42:28.260]  So, like one...
[42:28.260 --> 42:29.080]  Yeah.
[42:29.540 --> 42:29.860]  Yeah.
[42:30.380 --> 42:31.980]  Let's see if we can...
[42:32.960 --> 42:39.240]  So, this grid right here is kind of a classic example of like what power mapping is.
[42:39.540 --> 42:44.800]  I don't know if people can see it, but it's put into like four quarters, right?
[42:44.800 --> 42:47.420]  And at the top is like, who is most influential?
[42:47.700 --> 42:49.020]  Who is most powerful?
[42:49.360 --> 42:51.320]  At the bottom, who is least powerful?
[42:51.500 --> 42:52.780]  Who is least influential?
[42:53.240 --> 42:55.660]  On the sides, who's strongly opposed to you?
[42:55.780 --> 42:58.300]  And on the other side, who strongly supports you?
[42:58.440 --> 43:01.620]  And what you do is literally get the stakeholders your target.
[43:01.820 --> 43:05.320]  The council members, you know, the organizations.
[43:05.460 --> 43:08.860]  Just whoever is a person of interest.
[43:08.860 --> 43:11.440]  And you literally plop them down on this.
[43:11.600 --> 43:14.140]  And it's a way of visualizing the political landscape.
[43:14.480 --> 43:16.800]  And it's a pretty old tool that people use.
[43:18.660 --> 43:19.460]  So, yeah.
[43:19.760 --> 43:21.100]  That's pretty much it.
[43:21.240 --> 43:22.000]  That's our talk.
[43:23.960 --> 43:26.680]  I think we can open it for questions and answers.
[43:26.680 --> 43:31.600]  I'm really interested to see what people are interested in talking about.
[43:32.500 --> 43:34.100]  And I think we've got a lot of time too.
[43:34.100 --> 43:34.740]  Yeah.
[43:35.160 --> 43:35.720]  And the thing...
[43:35.720 --> 43:37.100]  I guess if I could have some...
[43:40.980 --> 43:43.540]  The thing that I guess I kind of want to highlight is that you can do this.
[43:43.880 --> 43:44.640]  I'm not like...
[43:44.640 --> 43:48.100]  I did not start this whole process knowing anything about anything.
[43:48.220 --> 43:50.700]  It just took sort of research and learning from scratch.
[43:50.900 --> 43:52.660]  And every context...
[43:52.660 --> 43:54.140]  You know, your local context is going to be different.
[43:54.140 --> 43:56.940]  But just get started and be persistent with it.
[43:57.060 --> 43:59.880]  And apply the skills that you already have to the problem at hand.
[44:00.040 --> 44:01.640]  And just keep at it.
[44:01.640 --> 44:02.460]  And you will be...
[44:02.460 --> 44:03.200]  I think...
[44:04.220 --> 44:06.880]  You'll be more successful than you might think at first.
[44:07.100 --> 44:07.440]  So...
[44:07.440 --> 44:08.620]  Words of encouragement.
[44:09.100 --> 44:09.600]  All right.
[44:09.640 --> 44:10.900]  It looks like we have a question.
[44:11.220 --> 44:11.480]  Go ahead.
[44:12.100 --> 44:12.540]  Hi.
[44:13.200 --> 44:18.020]  So, first of all, I wanted to share support and congratulations from France.
[44:18.720 --> 44:27.660]  I'm part of a group based in France where we've been doing a similar campaign on a national level called Techno Police, which is trying to, like, give...
[44:28.180 --> 44:31.620]  Help local groups get the tools to do what you've been doing.
[44:31.800 --> 44:34.680]  And so I'm really excited to see you doing it, like, in somewhere else.
[44:35.140 --> 44:41.700]  So my two questions would be, have you been in contact with other people in other cities to sort of exchange tips and tricks?
[44:41.880 --> 44:47.440]  It's interesting what you were mentioning about U.S. local politics being so different from one city to the next.
[44:47.440 --> 44:54.080]  I don't think that maps back onto France and into Europe in general, where it's maybe more usually, like, the same setup everywhere.
[44:54.580 --> 44:56.700]  But so, you know, have you been able to do that?
[44:56.800 --> 45:03.640]  And when I see this sort of stuff, I get excited about, oh, oh, we should all work together at sort of like a, you know, supranational level.
[45:03.800 --> 45:08.540]  Like, all get together and share more information and more sort of motivation and tools.
[45:09.220 --> 45:12.780]  You were mentioning, and I entirely agree, coalitions are hard and they're messy.
[45:12.780 --> 45:16.340]  So an international coalition sounds even harder.
[45:16.480 --> 45:28.460]  But if it's on specific things like, you know, literally surveillance in the streets, gate recognition, you know, microphones, facial recognition, these are exactly the thing that this campaign, the one I'm talking about back in France called Technopolis,
[45:28.680 --> 45:29.360]  has been doing.
[45:29.740 --> 45:40.740]  Like, it sounds like it's easier to build bridges when you're literally on the same issues and working on, you know, against the same industrial complexes that are trying to push this technology locally because they make money from it and all that.
[45:40.740 --> 45:42.720]  So, yeah, those are my two questions, I guess.
[45:43.640 --> 45:44.200]  Yeah.
[45:44.680 --> 45:52.900]  What I would say is the easiest thing, like how to plug into, like, national and international efforts, there is...
[45:53.520 --> 45:58.560]  The Electronic Frontier Foundation has this fantastic initiative called the Electronic Frontier Alliance.
[45:59.300 --> 46:12.880]  And if you start a local organization dedicated to a... and you agree with the Electronic Frontier sort of generic goals and aims, which I would suspect that most of us here do, then join...
[46:12.880 --> 46:25.100]  You can join the Electronic Frontier Alliance and your org will be listed on this big list and you can go to these monthly meetings where, like, they will have organizers from the EFF on the Zoom call and you can chat with them and share resources and they have trainings and all this useful stuff.
[46:25.100 --> 46:36.860]  The other thing is to just, once you've got... once you have a little bit of an organization at the local level, and you obviously already do, but just, like, literally reaching out to these other orgs, find their contact information, reach out and say,
[46:36.900 --> 46:37.960]  hey, do you have anything?
[46:38.060 --> 46:38.500]  Can we join?
[46:38.640 --> 46:40.060]  Can we... is there anything that we can do to help?
[46:40.060 --> 46:44.780]  The other thing is, like, you don't have to agree about everything to be part of a coalition together.
[46:45.140 --> 46:50.120]  Restore the Fourth is, as a rule, a very sort of libertarian right-leaning or...
[46:50.120 --> 47:00.560]  This isn't true in all cases, but, like, there is a... there is... especially on issues of surveillance and technology, there is a lot more overlap between the left and the right on... on these issues than... than you might think.
[47:00.560 --> 47:07.440]  And, you know, you don't have to agree 100% with what the other coalition partners are up to.
[47:07.580 --> 47:12.160]  If you just agree on the policy that you're fighting for, you can be in a coalition together on that policy.
[47:12.840 --> 47:17.240]  Don't... don't be afraid to, like, work with people that you disagree with 90% of the time on other stuff.
[47:17.360 --> 47:21.020]  If they agree with you on the stuff that you're fighting for, work with them on that one thing.
[47:22.020 --> 47:29.520]  Yeah, and if we're talking about just, like, other cities, like the neighboring city, I think what you need to do is, like, monitor and do some lurking of social media.
[47:29.520 --> 47:35.820]  For example, if there's, like, a big issue in your locality, you know, I don't know, like, trash...
[47:35.820 --> 47:39.460]  like, sanitation, I don't know, any issue, who is speaking up about it?
[47:39.520 --> 47:41.540]  Who is organizing around it?
[47:41.680 --> 47:44.100]  Who is, like, sending out flyers around it?
[47:44.340 --> 47:48.640]  Figuring out who is actually in the playing field for any kind of certain issue.
[47:48.840 --> 47:52.020]  And then just, like, literally reaching out to them, as he said.
[47:52.140 --> 47:57.200]  But I think, like, the Internet and social media is such a huge help for figuring out who these personalities actually are.
[47:57.200 --> 48:00.940]  This is where, like, social media scraping and using bots is very useful.
[48:01.080 --> 48:13.960]  If you know how to do that kind of thing and systematically monitor these things using your own kind of social media surveillance tools, you can, you know, use those tools against the state to figure out who your potential allies are.
[48:15.040 --> 48:15.760]  Thank you, though.
[48:15.840 --> 48:17.420]  That sounds pretty amazing, though.
[48:17.620 --> 48:18.900]  You said you're from France again?
[48:19.120 --> 48:19.320]  Yeah.
[48:19.820 --> 48:20.080]  Lovely.
[48:20.220 --> 48:20.960]  Thank you for your question.
[48:23.140 --> 48:23.660]  Hello.
[48:24.520 --> 48:25.780]  Thanks for the presentation.
[48:26.500 --> 48:30.540]  So reading through the law sometimes feels like kind of looking at spaghetti code.
[48:30.720 --> 48:38.820]  And I think that a part of that is because it's very waterfally, the ways in which we kind of build the legislation that kind of governs our lives.
[48:38.820 --> 48:47.520]  And I'm wondering how you all feel about the approach of adopting more open source software kind of tenants when it comes to the management of our law.
[48:47.960 --> 49:01.520]  Like, is there a possibility that one day an industrious person could, like, file a pull request against the legislation that governs their municipality and have, like, an open conversation about what that means and whether or not it's adoptable?
[49:01.660 --> 49:06.520]  Or is that too far away from how we usually think about, like, representative democracy in this country?
[49:09.950 --> 49:12.510]  I agree with the premise of your question very, very strongly.
[49:13.430 --> 49:20.270]  I still to this day get very frustrated and angry at lawyers for using words in ways that don't make sense.
[49:21.350 --> 49:24.530]  It seems like they have their own separate language for stuff.
[49:25.790 --> 49:36.090]  It just takes time to sort of parse through and by asking a lot of folks like the ACLU or, like, just local lawyers and, like, what does this mean in a legal context?
[49:36.210 --> 49:37.110]  Is there, like, case law?
[49:37.290 --> 49:39.850]  Is there, like, what are all these whereas's for?
[49:42.730 --> 49:47.650]  But what I would say is definitely, yes, there is an opportunity for that at the local level.
[49:47.650 --> 49:55.190]  Especially if you can find, if you can find a council member or if you can find a bureaucrat who you can get to agree with you about what you just said.
[49:55.470 --> 50:02.990]  And you are willing to put in the time to, you're going to probably have to do most of, like, the behind the scenes heavy lifting.
[50:03.230 --> 50:11.030]  To be, like, when you go to a city council, like, a lot of, like, we came with language prefabricated for our ordinance.
[50:11.030 --> 50:15.050]  We, like, we did a lot of the, and then they took it and then they sort of remixed it and then they arranged.
[50:15.230 --> 50:25.110]  Like, if, for, for issues, like, for a lot, especially if they're a small municipality, you're going to anticipate doing a lot of that sort of behind the scenes legwork.
[50:26.110 --> 50:30.910]  But if you can find someone on your council who is interested in that, then yes, there is an opportunity for that.
[50:30.910 --> 50:35.630]  And the more municipalities that do stuff like that, it will trickle up.
[50:35.730 --> 50:40.610]  Like, there's, I've lost track, there's more than 20 different cities now that have banned facial recognition, right?
[50:40.710 --> 50:42.070]  Like, I think it's actually getting on to 30.
[50:42.510 --> 50:47.970]  And there's a reason why, like, there are bills in Congress and there are bills in state legislatures talking about banning facial recognition.
[50:47.970 --> 50:51.810]  Because there are multiple municipal jurisdictions covering millions of people.
[50:52.290 --> 50:56.230]  So, like, it matters when you get these stuff passed through at the local level.
[50:56.350 --> 50:58.150]  So, yeah, there is an opportunity for it.
[50:58.190 --> 50:58.750]  I say go for it.
[50:58.750 --> 51:04.330]  I look forward to the day I can, like, fork the facial recognition law and be like, hey, we want this here.
[51:04.650 --> 51:05.170]  Like, that...
[51:05.170 --> 51:07.690]  Yeah, there are... and I know, I think it's...
[51:08.410 --> 51:09.830]  I don't know, expect me near to know.
[51:09.910 --> 51:15.050]  But, like, I'm pretty sure in DC there is, like, an actual GitHub of their municipal codes.
[51:15.190 --> 51:16.870]  That's not outside of the realm of hospital.
[51:17.010 --> 51:24.950]  Like, getting them to actually refactor the language of the ordinances in a way that is, like, readable to people who aren't lawyers is a much harder lift, I think.
[51:25.070 --> 51:26.870]  But it should be doable.
[51:27.910 --> 51:32.830]  Yeah, I think that's a terrific idea and it's definitely one you're gonna have to lobby and organize to get done.
[51:33.090 --> 51:39.350]  But you have to do that because I think the language, the legal jargon, that's a political decision, right?
[51:39.590 --> 51:46.610]  That's a political decision to make law unreadable, to make this legislation unreadable, to make it that you can hide shit in it.
[51:46.610 --> 51:48.390]  You know, that is a political decision.
[51:48.610 --> 51:50.330]  And you have to change that.
[51:50.550 --> 51:55.350]  And, I mean, you'll face a lot of opposition because, you know, there's a lot of money at stake.
[51:56.910 --> 52:03.910]  But you can, like, start to build that political will and start to, you know, one little city at a time.
[52:03.930 --> 52:07.610]  And then if it works, you know, it catches on like wildfire.
[52:07.610 --> 52:16.970]  But I just do want to highlight, like, yeah, that's, you're fighting against, like, you know, political decisions, you know, that are not done in good faith, I think.
[52:16.970 --> 52:17.370]  Yeah.
[52:17.730 --> 52:18.710]  I appreciate the insight.
[52:18.730 --> 52:18.750]  Thank you.
[52:18.830 --> 52:19.150]  That was great.
[52:19.190 --> 52:19.450]  Thank you.
[52:26.900 --> 52:29.400]  We need to wrap this up to get ready for the next session.
[52:29.540 --> 52:29.860]  Thank you.
[52:30.140 --> 52:31.220]  So, we do have time for...
[52:31.220 --> 52:31.480]  Okay.
[52:31.700 --> 52:33.360]  So, COVID.
[52:35.040 --> 52:41.640]  So, I tried to interact with New York City government over a minor issue I had.
[52:41.800 --> 52:44.100]  And I had been very successful in the past.
[52:44.860 --> 52:54.740]  But long after they said the city is open, enjoy the city, no government agencies or advocacy agencies were open.
[52:55.560 --> 52:57.040]  No city council.
[52:57.420 --> 52:58.200]  They were all closed.
[52:58.380 --> 53:03.840]  And apparently COVID also prevented them from returning any phone calls or writing any emails.
[53:04.940 --> 53:16.180]  So, and it seemed clear to me after a few weeks, which, by the way, I never got my problem solved, that this seemed to be a bulletproof excuse for them to not interact with their constituents.
[53:17.080 --> 53:18.540]  Did anybody else...
[53:18.540 --> 53:19.940]  Did you experience that?
[53:20.220 --> 53:22.880]  Any suggestions about what to do about that?
[53:23.320 --> 53:23.920]  Yes.
[53:24.040 --> 53:25.440]  Thank you for bringing that up.
[53:25.580 --> 53:30.120]  COVID has made political lobbying and organizing so much worse, right?
[53:30.360 --> 53:33.820]  It gives them the politicians excuse to hide from you.
[53:33.820 --> 53:39.800]  For example, our state legislature, you know, was, like, just not in session for, I think, like, two years almost.
[53:40.100 --> 53:43.820]  And what happens is, like, you know, lobbying is being in the lobby, right?
[53:44.040 --> 53:48.080]  It's just physically being there, being a pest, being in their face.
[53:48.380 --> 53:58.780]  But what we have is that these lawmakers are now hiding, you know, behind these, like, Zoom meetings, behind, you know, we just can't physically meet up, so I'm not gonna hear your issue.
[53:58.780 --> 54:04.440]  And I think what we did was just literally just constantly do everything virtually, right?
[54:04.620 --> 54:20.240]  So a ton of Zoom meetings, a ton of emails, a ton of calls, and just literally nonstop, relentless, like, bothering them to the point that they just, like, relinquish, you know, their, any kind of fight that they have against you.
[54:21.200 --> 54:26.560]  So I think just being incredibly annoying and pestering, and really kind of threatening, too.
[54:27.040 --> 54:38.420]  Like, not, like, in a, you know, violent way, but just being like, hey, you're not listening to me, you're using these evasive tactics, and I will let people know, I'm gonna take this public that you're doing this, you know?
[54:38.560 --> 54:41.260]  And I will get together with other constituents, you know?
[54:41.580 --> 54:44.020]  Make such a fuss that they have to look at you.
[54:44.340 --> 54:53.340]  Yeah, and it's, it's, it is a bit of a, I really don't like schlepping down to the Capitol to stand in the lobby to do that kind of thing.
[54:53.440 --> 54:56.300]  That's just mostly because, you know, I'm antisocial.
[54:56.380 --> 54:57.740]  I don't like talking to people face to face.
[54:57.840 --> 55:01.240]  I'm, I actually like the Zoom, the Zoom meetings, and I kind of prefer it that way.
[55:01.700 --> 55:08.600]  It also, it also, you know, it feels nice to know that I'm on a level playing field with the paid ACLU lobbyist or with the paid Monsanto lobbyist or whatever.
[55:08.920 --> 55:11.260]  They, they got to do Zoom meetings, I got to do Zoom meetings.
[55:11.520 --> 55:12.120]  I don't know.
[55:12.520 --> 55:16.560]  There's, you do, you, it does level the playing field a little bit in that sense.
[55:17.020 --> 55:30.840]  But it just, like Munir said, being very persistent and, and it's not going to be as impactful having like six or seven neighbors in a Zoom meeting as it is to crowd their office with six or seven people.
[55:31.000 --> 55:39.160]  But if you don't get that Zoom meeting, you know, I guess it depends on to what extent their offices are actually closed.
[55:39.320 --> 55:43.500]  But like literally taking those six or seven people and going to their office saying, look, we've been trying to get ahold of this guy.
[55:43.620 --> 55:44.640]  We've been trying to get this meeting.
[55:44.780 --> 55:45.540]  We've been real persistent.
[55:45.700 --> 55:47.060]  We've emailed you once every week.
[55:47.180 --> 55:48.460]  And, you know, we keep getting delayed.
[55:48.640 --> 55:50.700]  Just, you know, it, you know, we're here.
[55:50.780 --> 55:52.620]  We're, we're here in person.
[55:53.420 --> 55:54.380]  Can we get a fricking meeting?
[55:54.660 --> 55:56.220]  There's, we're your constituents.
[55:56.560 --> 55:58.500]  You are supposed to be representing us.
[55:58.640 --> 55:59.620]  We just want a meeting.
[55:59.880 --> 56:00.200]  Let's sit.
[56:00.320 --> 56:02.200]  Oh, and also don't be afraid to talk to staff too.
[56:02.200 --> 56:08.520]  Like a lot of times staff will be, just for logistical reasons, easier to get in touch with than the actual representative themselves.
[56:09.700 --> 56:16.040]  If you're, you don't, so like, don't be afraid to talk to like their legislative aide or whatever.
[56:16.900 --> 56:25.600]  Unless you're, if you're looking for like a, a star council member to like carry your legislation, you really should be with them in person to like get a good read on them.
[56:25.600 --> 56:27.220]  Yeah, that's a great point.
[56:27.400 --> 56:28.780]  Staff is incredibly powerful.
[56:29.000 --> 56:37.320]  So we're talking about the aides, the legislative aides, the policy aides, the like, you know, the clerk writers, everybody underneath the lawmaker.
[56:37.560 --> 56:37.660]  They do most of the work.
[56:37.660 --> 56:38.900]  Yeah, they do most of the work.
[56:39.020 --> 56:41.860]  But they also are making the schedules and all that kind of stuff.
[56:42.400 --> 56:44.160]  So yeah, thank you for your question.
[56:44.180 --> 56:45.060]  I appreciate that.
[56:45.320 --> 56:47.140]  And thank you to everybody who did come.
[56:47.340 --> 56:54.700]  I really do hope to see more of these coalitions like Safety Not Surveillance in every city nationwide and hopefully globally as well.
[56:54.700 --> 57:07.320]  And I think that will be like the mission of these next few years is to be like to begin to speak to each other a lot more and to begin to like coordinate and work together so that we can get these like international wins.
[57:07.840 --> 57:08.800]  But thank you.
[57:08.960 --> 57:09.200]  Thank you.
[57:09.320 --> 57:10.380]  Thank you for coming.
[57:11.160 --> 57:12.100]  Have a wonderful day.
[57:13.000 --> 57:13.540]  Thank you.
[57:13.540 --> 57:15.460]  Thank you to Manira and Chris very much.
[57:15.960 --> 57:22.480]  Hey, the next session here is going to be how to, how to run a top 10 website publicly and transparently.
[57:24.000 --> 57:25.580]  Enjoy the rest of your day here.
[57:26.100 --> 57:26.500]  Thank you.