[00:00.000 --> 00:01.180]  ...up this evening.
[00:01.640 --> 00:02.180]  That's upcoming.
[00:02.640 --> 00:05.320]  Right now is Cultures of Open... Wait a minute.
[00:05.600 --> 00:06.000]  Did I get it right?
[00:06.360 --> 00:07.540]  Cultures and diversity.
[00:07.980 --> 00:09.320]  Cultures of Open-Source Software.
[00:09.620 --> 00:11.280]  I've memorized it for about 10 seconds.
[00:11.660 --> 00:12.980]  Cultures of Open-Source Software.
[00:13.100 --> 00:13.300]  Welcome.
[00:19.340 --> 00:20.260]  Hi, everyone.
[00:20.420 --> 00:21.940]  My name is Bryan Nunez.
[00:22.080 --> 00:24.040]  I work with The Guardian Project.
[00:24.560 --> 00:33.600]  And I'm moderating this little discussion that we're having about diversity in Floss projects.
[00:34.560 --> 00:39.120]  The two panelists are Douwe from Greenhost.
[00:39.600 --> 00:43.680]  You might be familiar with that organization.
[00:44.200 --> 00:53.600]  We also have Sandra Ordonez, who works with OpenITP, and she runs the community outreach efforts there.
[00:54.820 --> 00:56.360]  So that's it.
[00:56.780 --> 01:00.580]  We'll keep it short, and hopefully we'll have lots of time for discussion.
[01:00.840 --> 01:01.060]  Thanks.
[01:04.890 --> 01:05.650]  Thanks, Bryan.
[01:06.630 --> 01:08.830]  So... I started in the introduction.
[01:09.310 --> 01:09.990]  My name is Douwe Schmidt.
[01:10.210 --> 01:11.550]  I work for Greenhost.
[01:11.850 --> 01:13.390]  I do a lot of different projects.
[01:14.310 --> 01:16.190]  And I'm from Amsterdam.
[01:16.290 --> 01:18.730]  I've got a lot of background in the Dutch hacker culture.
[01:19.150 --> 01:22.830]  And today we're going to talk about diversity issues around that.
[01:23.130 --> 01:26.890]  And so most of my cues, most of the stuff I know are from that background.
[01:28.970 --> 01:32.810]  So if something is unfamiliar or foreign, it is foreign.
[01:35.550 --> 01:36.530]  So where are we?
[01:36.650 --> 01:38.750]  Like yesterday we saw Mr. Snowden talk again.
[01:38.990 --> 01:43.010]  And we kind of have to ask ourselves what to make all of this.
[01:43.170 --> 01:45.450]  Like, how does it inflict on us, on our lives?
[01:46.870 --> 01:53.990]  And Snowden was pretty clear yesterday in his talk once again, saying, okay, we're all being recorded.
[01:54.850 --> 01:55.570]  All of us.
[01:55.690 --> 01:57.790]  So we're pretty much f*cked.
[01:59.810 --> 02:01.510]  And I mean it in a big way.
[02:02.550 --> 02:04.910]  And I mean it also in a special way for you guys here.
[02:05.130 --> 02:11.830]  We, like the tech-savvy people, I think we are a little bit more f*cked than the rest of the world.
[02:12.530 --> 02:16.330]  Like us guys, you know, who, I don't know, eat Python for breakfast.
[02:16.730 --> 02:23.410]  You know, guys and girls who can hack their way out of a vault buried four mile deep in the desert of Utah.
[02:25.950 --> 02:29.010]  We got like a big responsibility and down upon ourselves.
[02:29.310 --> 02:36.250]  Not only have to, we have to save ourselves, but we also got a responsibility to save everybody else.
[02:36.250 --> 02:40.430]  You know, like the, I don't know, the guy who makes a pizza, our doctors, our mom.
[02:40.950 --> 02:49.130]  All these people are looking at us and saying, we need you to engineer our way out of this mess.
[02:53.590 --> 02:55.930]  We have to save them, basically, to save ourselves.
[02:57.810 --> 02:59.330]  So I try to do a little bit of that.
[02:59.510 --> 03:04.030]  Like I give, I give a lot of crypto parties, like an MSM public library.
[03:05.410 --> 03:07.490]  I try to stay on top of the latest news.
[03:07.670 --> 03:10.190]  I read my lip tag, never posted to it though.
[03:10.510 --> 03:11.650]  It's a little bit scary, that list.
[03:12.090 --> 03:14.450]  Uh, I go to European hacker camps.
[03:14.610 --> 03:16.210]  I just started my own Tor relay.
[03:16.630 --> 03:16.750]  Yay.
[03:17.490 --> 03:18.570]  Uh, on my Raspberry Pi.
[03:19.110 --> 03:21.790]  But I can't hack my way, even out of a paperback.
[03:22.790 --> 03:27.990]  And a year after Snowden, I am more and more unsure if any of this stuff makes any sense at all.
[03:28.530 --> 03:34.970]  If I look at a mound of hoops and loops I have to jump through to nudge up my security just even a little bit.
[03:35.870 --> 03:43.570]  Uh, I really wonder, like, how are my mom, my doctor, and my favorite pizza baker ever gonna do this?
[03:43.650 --> 03:44.910]  How are they gonna pull it together?
[03:45.390 --> 03:49.170]  How are they gonna defend themselves from the class of mass surveillance?
[03:50.150 --> 03:51.890]  And I know some of you have answers.
[03:52.190 --> 03:54.030]  Like, many of you have many answers, actually.
[03:54.590 --> 04:00.010]  And sadly, they involve, like, a great deal of the same abbreviation lingo that we know from the leaks.
[04:00.010 --> 04:07.150]  You know, you have people saying, we just have to OTR over TLS using PFS and use Tor to exchange our PGP.
[04:09.290 --> 04:09.770]  Right?
[04:09.770 --> 04:10.250]  Wrong.
[04:10.470 --> 04:11.230]  Oh, no, no, okay.
[04:11.390 --> 04:12.090]  That's right.
[04:12.090 --> 04:13.110]  We have to do that shit.
[04:13.370 --> 04:14.450]  I love it.
[04:14.570 --> 04:15.290]  You know, that's great.
[04:15.550 --> 04:18.410]  That's literally what, uh, we have to do.
[04:18.710 --> 04:21.190]  But it's not enough for us.
[04:21.810 --> 04:26.230]  Uh, we have to OTR over TLS with PFS to order pizza.
[04:26.650 --> 04:28.890]  We have to use Tor to order our medicine.
[04:28.890 --> 04:32.510]  And we, for sure, like, hell, have to use PGP to communicate with our mom.
[04:33.810 --> 04:36.930]  We have to get these tools to them to make sure that we can be safe.
[04:38.030 --> 04:48.470]  If they're not gonna use it, we are gonna stand out like a sore thumb, because we're the only ones, like, having our security to, like, a good level, a decent level.
[04:49.530 --> 04:52.350]  So what this talks about is that we need to diversify.
[04:53.010 --> 04:56.610]  If we're gonna save ourselves, we need to have diversity in our community.
[04:58.410 --> 05:03.850]  Because we have to make tools... we have to make sure the tools we make can be used by our bakers, doctors, and moms.
[05:05.030 --> 05:13.010]  So could it be that most of the tools we make are not being used by them because we designed them for ourselves and for our close friends?
[05:13.750 --> 05:17.430]  Like, when was the last time you try... you ask your little brother to run your code?
[05:18.570 --> 05:22.230]  When you ask your grandmother to fire up the program that you just made?
[05:23.210 --> 05:27.010]  Like, when was the last time for everybody who is running his own mail server?
[05:27.150 --> 05:32.430]  Like, when was the last time you logged in through the webmail interface that 80% of your users are using?
[05:34.170 --> 05:36.550]  So we need user-led design, in my belief.
[05:36.710 --> 05:42.750]  The ones who are going to use the programs must be part of the design and development process from the start.
[05:44.090 --> 05:48.730]  We need to know who these people are who are gonna use our code to save lives on the other side of the earth.
[05:49.290 --> 05:57.150]  Many of us don't have the research budgets of Google or the Facebooks to get an exact profile of the whims and wishes of our users.
[05:57.410 --> 05:59.170]  So we have to meet them face to face.
[06:00.110 --> 06:05.910]  We have to meet with them to learn what they need, and we need to be part of their struggles and know their stories.
[06:06.250 --> 06:07.630]  So we need to diversify.
[06:08.610 --> 06:10.270]  Also because there is not one solution.
[06:11.130 --> 06:13.710]  There are people who say we need technical solutions.
[06:16.650 --> 06:22.170]  And just making a new app with extra crypto won't solve anything if your politics is down the drain.
[06:24.310 --> 06:27.110]  But only political solutions won't work either.
[06:28.670 --> 06:34.270]  Eleanor Saitta very rightly pointed out in her talk at the noisy square at Ohm Hacker Camp last year.
[06:34.490 --> 06:35.970]  I don't know how many people were there.
[06:36.190 --> 06:37.170]  I know quite a few.
[06:38.230 --> 06:40.170]  But what she said is that...
[06:42.830 --> 06:48.170]  Basically when a policy is in place on a political level, it doesn't disappear anymore.
[06:49.510 --> 06:51.430]  She memorized one occasion.
[06:52.050 --> 06:52.830]  And I quote her on it.
[06:53.030 --> 07:01.310]  She said, the NSA did very politely in 1975 turn off their telegram surveillance program.
[07:04.270 --> 07:07.550]  It had never in their entire history produced anything useful.
[07:07.550 --> 07:12.370]  So that's our one example of a technological capability being rolled back.
[07:13.050 --> 07:14.650]  So much for history.
[07:15.950 --> 07:18.110]  Furthermore, you have an additional problem here.
[07:18.450 --> 07:20.470]  And once again, this is a straight quote from Ella.
[07:21.190 --> 07:24.170]  She says, the NSA taps every politician's email.
[07:24.570 --> 07:26.890]  And even anybody who might become a politician.
[07:27.030 --> 07:27.750]  They tap their phones.
[07:27.870 --> 07:28.590]  They tap their email.
[07:28.910 --> 07:31.670]  Partially they do this for national security reasons.
[07:31.950 --> 07:36.750]  They need to know if these people have sold out to somebody or any number of justifications.
[07:37.070 --> 07:39.630]  But it also means that they have all the dirt on you.
[07:41.170 --> 07:42.930]  On all the politicians.
[07:43.770 --> 07:49.810]  Now, how easy do you think it is to keep a politician bought if their career can be destroyed at any moment?
[07:50.150 --> 07:58.790]  How well do you think their long-term policy is going to be when they know that if they stand up to you too much, they get destroyed?
[07:59.950 --> 08:03.890]  So we need to diversify to fight a political battle internationally.
[08:04.390 --> 08:12.670]  And I'm sorry to say, but I have more faith at this moment in Germany, Poland, the Netherlands, and maybe even Brazil in this regard than the U.S.
[08:13.150 --> 08:16.350]  But we need the help of you to keep our governments in check.
[08:18.530 --> 08:22.530]  We need to keep our politicians in check so also you have a safe place to hide.
[08:22.930 --> 08:30.230]  We did international coalitions and showed the U.S. for international pressure that they are backwards and destroying not only businesses, but freedom at large.
[08:31.230 --> 08:32.190]  We need diversity.
[08:33.210 --> 08:36.630]  Because many of us are basically circle jerking in an echo chamber.
[08:38.910 --> 08:46.190]  And sorry to be personal, but this is a shout-out to Moxie Marlinspike, who is making great stuff like ChatSecure and Redphone.
[08:46.470 --> 08:55.030]  But two weeks ago, he found it necessary to call out on Twitter and asking people not to fund Cryptocad for Android, but instead fund his project.
[08:55.670 --> 08:59.030]  And Moxie's work is great, and I understand he believes it is the best thing around.
[08:59.350 --> 09:00.850]  He might even be right at that.
[09:01.030 --> 09:05.870]  But to think that it's good to have just one crypto app and not multiple is beyond me.
[09:06.310 --> 09:11.570]  Anyone with some basic understanding of biology knows what monoculture can mean in a time of crisis.
[09:12.210 --> 09:14.930]  We need many different tools aimed at many different people.
[09:15.050 --> 09:18.670]  We need to make sure not everybody dies when one heart bleeds.
[09:20.610 --> 09:23.550]  So we need diversity because we're going to die.
[09:23.790 --> 09:24.910]  And I mean it literally.
[09:25.630 --> 09:27.370]  We need coders doing journalism.
[09:27.590 --> 09:28.530]  We need journalists coding.
[09:28.730 --> 09:37.430]  We need activists, doctors, lawyers, teachers, civil surgeons, and even the prawn business understanding their jobs will become impossible without security and privacy.
[09:39.650 --> 09:41.730]  I also don't see those as opposing things.
[09:41.890 --> 09:46.170]  Many people would like to frame it, but you can't have privacy without security any other way around.
[09:47.790 --> 09:51.350]  We're going to be targeted and hunted and smoked out of our man caves.
[09:52.170 --> 10:00.010]  Like XKCD says, we're going to be drugged and beaten with a $5 crank, and the 4,096-bit RSA encryption will not stand up for us.
[10:00.890 --> 10:10.630]  So we need to diversify and open up our communities to LGBT community, the Syrian fighters, artists, academics, and Mexicans trying to defend themselves against the drug cartels.
[10:10.870 --> 10:13.230]  We need to understand that there are struggles to empower them.
[10:14.050 --> 10:15.130]  And they are ready.
[10:15.670 --> 10:16.630]  They want to.
[10:17.210 --> 10:37.610]  There was a recent call for academic papers to mathematicians on the subject of the NSA, and it resulted in submissions carrying titles like Mathematicians should severe ties with the NSA, and their NSA, long-term security depends on freedom, and the NSA backdoor to NIST.
[10:38.870 --> 10:47.230]  And this year, every major art academy in the Netherlands has students graduating with artworks dealing with privacy, surveillance, and technology.
[10:47.910 --> 10:52.690]  Syrians fighting both ISIS and Assad want and need their mesh networks.
[10:52.690 --> 10:58.110]  And pizza bakers want to know how to have a Tor hidden service delivery service accepting Bitcoin.
[10:58.670 --> 11:02.710]  They are ready to make our knowledge and craftsmanship global.
[11:03.330 --> 11:09.650]  And now it's our task to be ready and make sure we can welcome all their ideas, cultures, and insights with open arms.
[11:10.410 --> 11:11.030]  Thank you.
[11:19.070 --> 11:20.510]  So I'm a little nervous.
[11:20.710 --> 11:25.310]  And when I get nervous, I speak Spanglish, so I apologize in advance.
[11:27.670 --> 11:36.070]  I'm going to talk a little bit about what it feels like being a bicultural person working in open-source and some of the things that I've seen.
[11:37.050 --> 11:44.090]  I'm going to throw a whole bunch of information at you, and part of it is just to trigger some thoughts and comments and questions later on.
[11:46.130 --> 11:53.210]  And these conversations, what I find really interesting is that a lot of times, the conversation you have with people that are affected, right?
[11:54.070 --> 12:01.010]  And there's people that, you know, maybe you're a white guy with a computer degree, and you think, well, it doesn't affect me.
[12:01.130 --> 12:03.930]  Like, I care about this, but it doesn't affect me, so I don't know how to help.
[12:04.190 --> 12:06.670]  Well, I'm here to tell you that we actually need your help.
[12:06.810 --> 12:10.870]  For cultural change to happen, it has to be a priority for the tribe.
[12:10.870 --> 12:19.390]  And diversity is actually really important, like Douwe shared, but also because diversity makes things more fun and makes things more interesting.
[12:19.790 --> 12:24.470]  We're also going to produce better products and services, and it's really the right thing to do.
[12:25.090 --> 12:34.990]  This is actually a cartoon where a guy breaks into another guy's room and is like, you're the reason that there's no nerdy girls here, man.
[12:35.250 --> 12:36.450]  Like, stop, you know?
[12:36.690 --> 12:38.290]  So we need your help.
[12:38.450 --> 12:43.690]  And it has to come from the community and not just like, you know, the few people that are affected.
[12:44.930 --> 12:54.570]  So when I talk about culture, I really like to give people a little bit of my background just so that you guys understand what my preferences are, you know, what my biases may be.
[12:55.230 --> 12:56.550]  I'm a native New Yorker.
[12:56.730 --> 12:58.430]  I grew up in the Bronx and Yonkers.
[12:58.890 --> 13:00.330]  Any native New Yorkers in here?
[13:00.950 --> 13:01.330]  Yay!
[13:01.890 --> 13:02.270]  What's up?
[13:02.990 --> 13:04.030]  I'm a Latina.
[13:04.330 --> 13:06.490]  My parents are immigrants from Cuba and Spain.
[13:06.830 --> 13:08.670]  I also say I'm a baptized Dominican.
[13:08.990 --> 13:11.390]  I grew up working in a butcher shop in Washington Heights.
[13:11.390 --> 13:12.610]  It's in North Manhattan.
[13:13.530 --> 13:14.910]  I love goddess stuff.
[13:15.150 --> 13:16.530]  Like, I have goddess imagery everywhere.
[13:17.070 --> 13:21.910]  In regards to race, I come from a multiracial family from my Cuban side.
[13:22.110 --> 13:23.190]  And then I married a Chicano.
[13:23.770 --> 13:27.970]  And in terms of open-source, Wikipedia was my gateway drug into open-source.
[13:28.190 --> 13:31.730]  So that's eventually how I got here.
[13:32.910 --> 13:39.790]  As a bicultural person, I think of culture very much like kind of like tech, right?
[13:39.790 --> 13:43.870]  The body is the hardware and the culture is the program.
[13:44.550 --> 13:48.550]  And you can have various programs in you, right?
[13:48.710 --> 13:50.790]  So it could be your nationality.
[13:51.270 --> 13:54.130]  It could be your race, sexual orientation.
[13:55.070 --> 13:58.210]  And just like a program, culture can be patched.
[13:58.310 --> 14:01.930]  It can be updated or it can be completely deleted, right?
[14:02.170 --> 14:06.390]  And I think that that's something really, really important to like keep in mind, right?
[14:06.390 --> 14:07.890]  Culture is not stagnant.
[14:08.010 --> 14:08.790]  It actually evolves.
[14:09.070 --> 14:10.950]  And you can evolve your own culture.
[14:11.810 --> 14:17.190]  The good news is that everybody in this room is a kaleidoscope of cultures.
[14:18.350 --> 14:21.430]  And floss is also a kaleidoscope of cultures.
[14:21.870 --> 14:26.230]  The bad news is you're probably not aware of how your cultural program affects you.
[14:26.450 --> 14:35.630]  Most people that are aware are aware because they have two competing or three competing programs in them that want to compete for your brain and they're opposing, right?
[14:36.030 --> 14:45.310]  So, for example, bicultural kid is constantly thinking, well, this side tells me to do this, this side tells me to do this, and I don't know, right?
[14:45.750 --> 14:52.850]  And the thing with open-source projects is that a lot of times we're not aware of our culture, right?
[14:53.110 --> 15:04.990]  We're not really taking a step back and looking at who's there, what are the culture clashes that are taking place, just being a little bit more conscientious of that, right?
[15:05.650 --> 15:16.330]  And it's also really important to understand that just because you have a diversity, like you have a diverse room, it doesn't mean that it's diversity friendly, right?
[15:16.570 --> 15:23.310]  A diversity friendly space has several, several characteristics to make it welcoming and open to everyone.
[15:24.470 --> 15:26.250]  These are just some facts and figures.
[15:26.510 --> 15:27.830]  I tried to look around for stuff.
[15:28.430 --> 15:32.010]  Things that I come across, I by no means am a researcher.
[15:32.330 --> 15:34.870]  So this is just, these are things that I found that were like interesting.
[15:36.150 --> 15:41.690]  There is a 2012 study of 170,000 open-source projects shared on SourceForge.
[15:42.070 --> 15:45.570]  And they found that the largest contributors came from Europe and the United States.
[15:46.450 --> 15:52.450]  Depending on the studies that you read, women make up anywhere from 1.5 to 3% of the FOSS community.
[15:52.450 --> 15:55.550]  Obviously, some projects have a higher percentage than others.
[15:57.370 --> 16:05.890]  I cite the Wikipedia editors just because like Wikipedia is a project that you probably don't need that much tech because you're editing the articles, right?
[16:06.250 --> 16:08.730]  But at the same time, it's only 8.5%.
[16:08.730 --> 16:10.970]  So there's a really huge gender gap.
[16:11.470 --> 16:22.070]  And they did a study not too long ago that I'm sure you guys all read, or at least saw in the news, where the typical volunteer, they found out that the typical volunteer is white male, 30 years old, from Europe and the United States.
[16:22.630 --> 16:28.010]  In terms of percentage of people of color in open-source, I actually couldn't find any study or research.
[16:28.670 --> 16:31.350]  If you guys do know of any, please just let me know.
[16:32.490 --> 16:36.830]  What I did find, though, was just studies of technology in general.
[16:38.630 --> 16:42.510]  Here in the United States, 3% of the competing workforce are Black women.
[16:43.070 --> 16:44.330]  2% are Latinas.
[16:44.610 --> 16:46.190]  5% are Asian women.
[16:46.830 --> 16:59.350]  A recent report from Mercury News said that basically the disparity in Silicon Valley is getting worse for minorities, which is really surprising because you would think it would actually get better now, right?
[16:59.970 --> 17:06.430]  And then also, one thing that I've noticed about open-source that you guys all know, it's obviously very English-dominant.
[17:07.430 --> 17:10.590]  And because of that, like, that usually means...
[17:10.590 --> 17:16.050]  And you're also, you know, tech-dominant, so that means you usually have enough money to buy at least like a laptop, right?
[17:16.290 --> 17:18.790]  So there's definitely a lack of socioeconomic diversity.
[17:20.970 --> 17:25.030]  One of the things that I did for this presentation was kind of...
[17:25.030 --> 17:31.150]  I went to Spanish-speaking open-source communities and I asked them, well, what are some of the issues that you guys have, right?
[17:31.630 --> 17:34.950]  So these are some... this is some of the feedback I got back.
[17:36.330 --> 17:37.590]  Everything is done in English.
[17:38.450 --> 17:43.190]  Not always, but generally, everything is first created in English and then translated, right?
[17:43.530 --> 17:47.090]  So a lot of them feel that they're not actually part of the creative process.
[17:47.430 --> 17:55.110]  And in many ways, there's this... almost like this thing in the back of the head that some of them feel that they have to ask for permission to do things or to join, right?
[17:55.770 --> 17:58.830]  It's also hard to participate if you don't know the language well.
[18:00.170 --> 18:02.830]  Also, English speakers are more seen and celebrated.
[18:03.210 --> 18:14.610]  So like if you have a Spanish speaker or any other language that is actually really, really good at what they do, but they don't speak English, they may not be like asked to be on panels.
[18:14.770 --> 18:23.850]  I mean, maybe in their particular country, but like in the general international tech community, like they may not come to like a panel or be speakers, be on an expert list.
[18:24.610 --> 18:32.070]  Also, some of them felt that the Anglo or Western way is always considered to be the correct way, right?
[18:32.390 --> 18:35.950]  This inability to understand that people do things differently.
[18:35.950 --> 18:37.410]  They process things differently.
[18:37.690 --> 18:39.090]  They collaborate differently.
[18:39.370 --> 18:41.170]  And that's something that a lot of them felt.
[18:41.330 --> 18:43.150]  And it was like actually quite emotional for them.
[18:44.730 --> 18:57.670]  They also feel that at times our community don't necessarily appreciate or take advantage of the fact that there are different mentalities, that there's different ways to view the world, that, you know, they're taking into account different things.
[18:57.750 --> 18:59.510]  So it's not just the language barrier.
[18:59.710 --> 19:00.910]  It's actually a culture clash.
[19:01.090 --> 19:09.170]  And actually like when you go to a lot of the open-source projects, like in your volunteering in them, you'll see some of these culture clash happen, right?
[19:10.370 --> 19:14.690]  Also, along those lines, decisions are taken from the English point of view.
[19:14.890 --> 19:16.190]  I'll give you a perfect example.
[19:16.390 --> 19:19.490]  There's one particular project that launched a magazine, right?
[19:21.230 --> 19:23.230]  And it was only in English.
[19:23.550 --> 19:27.310]  Finally, they finally got volunteers and they were translating in Spanish.
[19:27.430 --> 19:30.930]  But at the end of the day, the editorial decisions are made in English.
[19:31.090 --> 19:32.410]  They're made by English speakers, right?
[19:32.850 --> 19:35.690]  So this was something that was commented.
[19:36.150 --> 19:39.750]  Also, as you guys all know, decisions are made on specific time zones.
[19:40.070 --> 19:47.670]  So if some, you know, one particular region to sleep, when they wake up, they're like, wait a second, this is not, I'm not cool with this, you know?
[19:49.390 --> 19:54.550]  The next one, I think, affects not just cultures that may be opposed to this, but also personalities, right?
[19:54.870 --> 20:01.050]  There's definitely a level of aggressiveness and competitiveness in open-source that you see a lot in mailing lists, right?
[20:01.050 --> 20:06.130]  That it kind of pushes people away, kind of intimidates people from wanting to participate, right?
[20:07.990 --> 20:15.290]  And that's why I always say mailing lists are bad for your health, because, like, I can't tell you how many times I see people, like, emotionally, like, disturbed by this.
[20:17.050 --> 20:23.430]  And then, obviously, you know, the way that people see open-source really is influenced by your culture.
[20:24.630 --> 20:33.630]  So, you know, a few particular people that I was talking to made the distinction that in the U.S., for example, it might have a more libertarian or more free speech, you know, angle.
[20:33.830 --> 20:36.570]  And in Latin America, it might have a more social justice angle.
[20:38.210 --> 20:41.270]  So, yesterday, we did two meet-ups at Noisy Square.
[20:42.170 --> 20:45.070]  And if you guys are around later, please pass by Noisy Square.
[20:45.170 --> 20:46.130]  We would love to have you there.
[20:46.290 --> 20:49.270]  We did one on diversity, and we did a women's group.
[20:49.390 --> 20:51.090]  And this is some of the feedback we got there.
[20:51.250 --> 20:52.350]  We did, like, a little workshop.
[20:53.130 --> 20:56.270]  And this is so... the crowd, basically, these are some of the comments we got.
[20:57.830 --> 21:01.390]  There's no role models, and there's a lack of investment in diversity.
[21:01.790 --> 21:04.450]  So, like, organizers think of diversity as an astrothought.
[21:04.650 --> 21:08.390]  There's no process so that it's an integral part of the process.
[21:08.650 --> 21:12.350]  And if this is going to be a priority, we really have to think...
[21:12.950 --> 21:17.170]  be conscious of diversity from the very beginning of anything that you're organizing, right?
[21:19.010 --> 21:23.850]  Also, they feel like a lot of people may not see the value in diversity, like, why?
[21:24.110 --> 21:24.550]  Why?
[21:24.810 --> 21:25.970]  Like, why is this important?
[21:26.950 --> 21:31.850]  Also, even though open-source is very international, it kind of has a monoculture, right?
[21:32.190 --> 21:38.450]  Like, more than likely, you're here because there's common things that bring you together.
[21:38.450 --> 21:39.350]  And that's great.
[21:39.830 --> 21:46.410]  But at the same time, it would be cool to, like, you know, bring in different people that have different skills and different mindsets.
[21:47.750 --> 21:53.630]  Lack of community spaces, like, safe spaces where people can have these conversations.
[21:53.850 --> 21:57.390]  Because this is the thing about diversity and wanting to increase more people.
[21:57.630 --> 21:59.510]  You actually have to have a space, right?
[21:59.750 --> 22:02.630]  Like, here in New York, it's a very international city.
[22:02.690 --> 22:09.430]  And the one thing that I love about Native New Yorkers is that we talk about these issues, like, directly out in the open.
[22:09.430 --> 22:12.310]  And sometimes those conversations can be, like, really uncomfortable.
[22:12.550 --> 22:15.410]  But that's how you make... that's how you change things, right?
[22:15.670 --> 22:21.410]  And the thing is, like, a lot of people with culture, talking about culture or race, like, they feel uncomfortable talking about it.
[22:21.530 --> 22:25.570]  But I think, like, everybody has to, like, individually kind of overcome that.
[22:25.630 --> 22:31.290]  And as organizers, when we're doing things, provide a safe space where these conversations can take place.
[22:32.830 --> 22:37.230]  Anyway, I don't want to... I want to leave some time for questions.
[22:37.230 --> 22:38.690]  So I'm just going to go on to the next slide.
[22:39.630 --> 22:45.390]  This is some things, like, these are possible solutions that I'm going to throw at you, or some possible, like, just, like, some comments.
[22:46.270 --> 22:50.530]  Like I mentioned before, usually only the people that are affected are talking about these issues.
[22:50.610 --> 22:53.750]  So it'd be cool to have more people thinking about this.
[22:53.770 --> 22:57.090]  Because, again, it should be, like, a collective group thing that we're addressing.
[22:58.050 --> 23:03.470]  Keep in mind that aesthetics, preferences, and dislikes are determined by background, right?
[23:03.470 --> 23:07.750]  So that's actually why I did this whole thing in, like, rainbows and colors to, like, make a point.
[23:07.770 --> 23:09.130]  Because that's my preference, right?
[23:09.230 --> 23:10.970]  And I know lots of people that like that, right?
[23:11.150 --> 23:17.990]  So when you're doing outreach material, like, just remember, if you're outreaching to a different community, it may not be you.
[23:18.010 --> 23:23.030]  So figure out what they like and present that information in their preferences, right?
[23:23.170 --> 23:26.310]  Because that reduces also, like, communication barriers, right?
[23:26.970 --> 23:27.970]  Don't make assumptions.
[23:28.250 --> 23:29.410]  Ask a lot of questions.
[23:29.410 --> 23:32.370]  Like, we all give meaning to things, right?
[23:32.550 --> 23:37.730]  The way that I see my phone, I ascribe a certain meaning to this that might be different than the way Brian does, right?
[23:37.950 --> 23:40.950]  So a lot of times, there's a lot of things that are unsaid.
[23:41.190 --> 23:42.870]  So don't assume things about people.
[23:43.030 --> 23:44.250]  Ask a lot of questions.
[23:44.290 --> 23:45.570]  I don't understand why you did that.
[23:45.770 --> 23:47.090]  Well, what do you mean by this?
[23:47.230 --> 23:54.530]  Like, and that's the problem with these things with cross-cultural communication, that it actually requires a lot of effort to kind of reduce those barriers.
[23:55.730 --> 23:58.330]  Community management is the most essential thing.
[23:58.330 --> 24:06.450]  Like, definitely have people, like, empower a committee or a group of people that can provide the community with help.
[24:06.590 --> 24:11.370]  Like, they can shepherd, they can, like, figure out, like, if there's bad behavior, they can call it out.
[24:11.430 --> 24:14.310]  Or, like, just remind people, like, look, this is the guidelines.
[24:16.110 --> 24:18.150]  When possible, provide some childcare.
[24:18.790 --> 24:21.310]  Like, that's, you know, we don't want to exclude parents.
[24:22.390 --> 24:25.530]  And, you know, a lot of us have kids or will have kids.
[24:26.370 --> 24:28.010]  Also, inviting people is enough.
[24:28.450 --> 24:30.150]  Like, don't just expect people to come here.
[24:30.590 --> 24:31.250]  Like, go to them.
[24:31.370 --> 24:32.330]  Like, go to the communities.
[24:32.510 --> 24:33.630]  Like, go where they are, right?
[24:33.890 --> 24:35.490]  Like, I...
[24:35.490 --> 24:39.490]  There's a group called Latism, Latinos in Social Media.
[24:39.490 --> 24:42.710]  And, like, one of the things that I do is, like, go to their events.
[24:42.730 --> 24:48.950]  And I try and talk to people that are part, like, you know, big tribal leaders or whatever in that and talk to them about open-source.
[24:49.170 --> 24:51.010]  And explain why U.S. Latinos would want to get involved in this, right?
[24:53.890 --> 24:57.990]  So, even if you're not part of that community, like, go to them and invite them in.
[24:59.190 --> 25:02.510]  Like I mentioned before, at events, make sure to create a safe space.
[25:04.810 --> 25:06.650]  Also, openly discuss failures.
[25:07.070 --> 25:08.350]  And this actually came from yesterday.
[25:08.490 --> 25:09.410]  That's why I was...
[25:09.410 --> 25:13.690]  I think that was, like, one of the best points that came out of yesterday's conversation.
[25:14.190 --> 25:15.110]  Like, talk about it.
[25:15.190 --> 25:16.050]  Just talk about it honestly.
[25:16.290 --> 25:19.370]  Well, dude, we only had, like, you know, 5% women.
[25:19.690 --> 25:20.310]  What happened?
[25:20.510 --> 25:21.850]  Like, let's fix this, you know?
[25:23.230 --> 25:25.870]  Recruit people good at cross-cultural communications.
[25:26.290 --> 25:27.930]  Bicultural people, bilingual people.
[25:28.130 --> 25:30.210]  They're really awesome as human bridges.
[25:30.470 --> 25:31.550]  Like, I can't even tell you.
[25:31.550 --> 25:43.410]  Like, every single time that I've participated in open-source projects, usually the people that are best at solving these issues just by default, not even because they're thinking about it, are people that, like I said, bilingual, bicultural.
[25:44.430 --> 25:45.790]  Also, be very sensitive.
[25:46.030 --> 25:48.750]  Like, remember that discrimination can produce PTSD.
[25:49.350 --> 25:54.330]  Like, I know lots of people that have experienced really bad things in their lives because of discrimination.
[25:54.770 --> 25:57.570]  So, people, you know, it's an emotional thing.
[25:57.570 --> 25:59.550]  So, be conscientious of that, you know?
[25:59.550 --> 26:02.110]  And then the last thing, this stuff is hard.
[26:02.350 --> 26:09.270]  Like, when you have cultural clashes, and I don't know from first-hand experience, it's a violent, it's almost like a violent thing, right?
[26:09.350 --> 26:10.470]  Because it's internal.
[26:10.510 --> 26:14.510]  It, like, pushes your mind, your boundaries, how you see the world.
[26:14.550 --> 26:16.950]  And it can be a very violent thing, right?
[26:17.110 --> 26:18.550]  And it's definitely a hard thing.
[26:18.750 --> 26:26.990]  So, you know, be compassionate with yourself, be compassionate with others, and definitely have patience because if we work at this together, we can solve it.
[26:27.110 --> 26:28.290]  Like, this is not hard, right?
[26:28.370 --> 26:39.290]  Like, when you go to private organizations, like, you know, corporate corporations, they actually have higher percentage of diversity than open-source, but that's because they have people dedicated to this stuff, right?
[26:39.350 --> 26:40.310]  They have HR people.
[26:40.490 --> 26:41.470]  So, just focus...
[26:42.310 --> 26:42.930]  Ooh, sorry.
[26:43.210 --> 26:43.750]  It's okay.
[26:43.830 --> 26:44.590]  That was the last slide.
[26:45.930 --> 26:50.450]  Just be patient and understand that this is something that we can solve if we work at it together.
[26:51.890 --> 26:52.250]  So...
[26:57.600 --> 27:01.040]  So, thanks to both of the speakers.
[27:02.320 --> 27:09.220]  In preparation for this talk, we met a few times talking about the topic in general.
[27:09.420 --> 27:16.880]  I think one of the things that struck me was a quote that you, Sandy, told me, the Maya Angelou.
[27:17.080 --> 27:17.340]  Yep.
[27:18.220 --> 27:19.020]  Can you...
[27:19.020 --> 27:25.240]  Yeah, so Maya Angelou, I'm probably going to mess it up, but it's when somebody tells you who they are, believe them, right?
[27:25.520 --> 27:30.260]  So, in the same way, when a minority tells you what they're experiencing, believe them.
[27:30.660 --> 27:31.740]  Like, pay attention to it.
[27:31.880 --> 27:32.940]  Don't be like, ah, you're wrong.
[27:33.140 --> 27:43.440]  Like, try and understand why they're experiencing this, why they think it's a problem, what are the things that they're seeing that is a problem, and, you know, try to help.
[27:44.100 --> 27:44.460]  Right.
[27:44.460 --> 27:53.780]  Yeah, I think, you know, it's indicative of the diversity of the... or the range of different styles.
[27:54.100 --> 28:04.480]  Like, we had, on the one hand, we had Dow with his very minimalist, no slides presentation, and then we had a very colorful presentation on the other side.
[28:04.480 --> 28:22.520]  Another thing that I thought was interesting in our conversations was this idea that Floss is... sort of has... as one of its founding ideas is this idea of openness, right?
[28:22.520 --> 28:27.780]  So, um, by extension, you, people assume that there's inclusivity.
[28:27.980 --> 28:41.860]  Um, Dow, you, you talked to me about, um, having, uh, uh, hacker spaces, uh, where, um, people come in and they want to participate, but then they don't really know how to get involved.
[28:42.180 --> 28:42.520]  Do you own it?
[28:43.520 --> 28:44.980]  Uh, yeah, I know what you're getting at.
[28:44.980 --> 28:53.520]  Um, so I think there, there's, there's quite a good culture, uh, on paper, in Floss, and also in, uh, in hacker spaces.
[28:53.780 --> 29:03.920]  Uh, again, talking from a Europe perspective here, because I don't have any experience here in hacker spaces, but there's, there's a very general understanding that hacker spaces should be public spaces.
[29:03.920 --> 29:11.680]  Uh, open-source software is, uh, should, should be able for anyone to enter into and participate in.
[29:12.000 --> 29:18.180]  However, um, the, the ideologies behind it, uh, are hard to enforce sometimes in real life.
[29:18.440 --> 29:25.020]  When you find that you found a space, and you're hanging out there with your friends, and somebody might be walking in with a computer problem.
[29:25.680 --> 29:30.080]  They really might be interested in, and learn, learning something about Linux or something.
[29:30.220 --> 29:31.960]  They're, they're a first time Ubuntu user.
[29:32.440 --> 29:38.600]  Um, and then the guys hanging out there drinking Club Mate, uh, are not necessarily feeling like they're your help desk.
[29:39.020 --> 29:41.780]  Um, and saying, sorry, we don't have time for it.
[29:41.820 --> 29:44.720]  We're now repairing our, uh, I don't know, electronic soccer machine.
[29:44.720 --> 29:46.920]  And that's far more important at this moment.
[29:47.540 --> 29:49.960]  Um, actually, they're right.
[29:50.080 --> 29:50.920]  They're not a help desk.
[29:51.100 --> 29:54.940]  And you shouldn't look at these people like your go-to help desk.
[29:55.260 --> 30:04.080]  But that was, well, one point at which you basically lost a new member, or maybe a good member of your society, which also could have told you something.
[30:04.300 --> 30:06.880]  Because the very first, first thing that happened was bad.
[30:07.200 --> 30:18.880]  So, uh, something that happens a lot in makerspaces, they tend to diverge after an initial good setup, into very exclusive environments where only the in-crowd is welcome.
[30:18.880 --> 30:24.020]  Um, and, yeah, I think that applies to more, uh...
[30:24.020 --> 30:32.300]  Yeah, I think it also speaks to this idea that, uh, that monoculture is, is in general bad.
[30:32.560 --> 30:51.300]  I mean, not just from a cultural perspective, but if you look at biodiversity, it's a sort of a biological imperative that the more diversity you have, the greater chance we have to survive, I think maybe what you're getting at is this idea that you're missing out on opportunities when you...
[30:51.560 --> 31:03.500]  ...when you close down the avenues for people to participate, um, you're sort of missing on... maybe the, you know, the next Aaron Schwartz could have been that kid who you didn't wanna, you know, get up and show how to...
[31:03.500 --> 31:09.760]  Yeah, maybe also what I said in my talk, it's hard to know what end users really experience, what kind of problems they walk against.
[31:10.480 --> 31:14.920]  And most of us are so tech-savvy that we learned ourselves that shit, like, ten years ago.
[31:15.420 --> 31:21.480]  But it can be very enlightening to see the struggles that people have sometimes, uh, in that regard.
[31:21.700 --> 31:24.640]  And not only talking about problems, but also talking about solutions.
[31:25.160 --> 31:29.280]  Having a clear structure in your space or in your community helps a lot.
[31:29.420 --> 31:46.100]  So say you have your makerspace and you don't wanna be a helpdesk, but you wanna have, like, a safe time for people to enter, just then decide that there's gonna be, like, one hour a week where you can just sit there and people know that they can come there and they know kind of what to expect.
[31:46.340 --> 31:53.420]  Because the culture of openness and sharing and everybody equal also implies a lot of non-structuralistness.
[31:53.560 --> 31:56.840]  And it makes it opaque for people to enter into the community.
[31:57.040 --> 32:02.200]  Like, what to expect and what's come at what time and who can I actually tap on their shoulder if I have a problem?
[32:02.200 --> 32:05.320]  Because they're all just, you know, with a hoodie on sitting at a computer.
[32:06.460 --> 32:17.200]  And Sandy, you talked a little bit about the difference between European and Latin American culture in terms of the participation.
[32:19.760 --> 32:31.700]  Could you talk a little bit more about, you know, what efforts are being done, or if any, to try and sort of bring the two sides, make them a little bit more collaborative?
[32:33.740 --> 32:49.360]  Well, I mean, I think, sorry, for me, one of the things, like, at my organization that we're doing is we're organizing a festival and I'm trying to do it, well, we're, as a group, we're trying to do it in Spain just to have it at a Spanish-speaking country.
[32:49.360 --> 32:53.920]  And I think that that's actually part of the problem, right?
[32:54.060 --> 32:59.940]  Like, I think part of the problem is that we need to find the community and go to them.
[33:02.840 --> 33:04.600]  And, like, I know, like, I'm really active.
[33:04.760 --> 33:06.040]  I was really active in Joomla.
[33:06.060 --> 33:07.940]  I'm not as active as I used to be before.
[33:08.020 --> 33:22.500]  But one of the things that I saw that was really, really essential and important was when I first got there, there was, like, very few, like, groups, like, you know, kind of virtual spaces for the Spanish-speaking community.
[33:22.780 --> 33:27.240]  And little by little, they started to create these, like, huge virtual spaces in Spanish.
[33:27.460 --> 33:36.780]  And that was really, really powerful because at the end of the day, that particular sub-community could empower themselves, could ask questions, could rely on each other.
[33:37.060 --> 33:47.420]  So I don't know if that's what you're referring to, but I think that's really important, helping the subcultures, like, kind of come together and empower themselves.
[33:47.800 --> 33:48.140]  Right.
[33:48.640 --> 33:55.380]  So in the interest of cultural diversity, we want to open it up to questions, comments, and complaints.
[33:56.500 --> 33:58.340]  There's a microphone in the middle of the room.
[33:59.420 --> 34:06.460]  So, yeah, if anything struck a chord with you or you've got additions to make, feel free to walk up in the middle, and I think somebody actually already is.
[34:08.020 --> 34:08.540]  No.
[34:10.180 --> 34:11.500]  So I'll continue, then.
[34:11.660 --> 34:12.440]  I think we have one.
[34:12.880 --> 34:13.080]  Hi.
[34:13.600 --> 34:15.800]  So I guess a quick comment and then a question.
[34:16.040 --> 34:22.620]  I like the metaphor of biology and evolution, and it comes up a lot in these sorts of discussions.
[34:22.860 --> 34:26.400]  And I think people don't take it quite far enough because you see even...
[34:27.200 --> 34:30.660]  So sex is a great way to increase diversity.
[34:30.660 --> 34:38.860]  And even asexual bacteria come up with ways of passing genes between them because it is the most effective way to spread ideas, to spread data.
[34:39.500 --> 34:42.940]  And so this sort of diversity, I think, is...
[34:42.940 --> 34:43.760]  Yeah.
[34:43.920 --> 34:45.840]  People don't take the metaphor quite far enough, I think.
[34:45.960 --> 34:47.140]  So I thought that was interesting.
[34:47.860 --> 35:05.920]  And the other thing is, there was a certain amount of talk recently about Stack Exchange opening Stack Overflow in Portuguese, and Joel Spolsky has written stuff about how he really thinks that all programmers should be writing in English, but there's this huge community,
[35:06.080 --> 35:08.140]  and he sort of recognizes that there's a need for this.
[35:08.340 --> 35:09.740]  And you mentioned language a bit.
[35:10.400 --> 35:13.020]  And I was wondering if you had any more things.
[35:13.280 --> 35:16.200]  How does being... Dutch, did you say?
[35:16.440 --> 35:17.480]  I missed that.
[35:18.700 --> 35:25.040]  How do these various languages work, and should there be a, you know, a German Stack Overflow and things like that?
[35:26.420 --> 35:28.400]  Yes, sorry, I had difficulty understanding.
[35:28.560 --> 35:32.060]  Could you rephrase your question and talk into the microphone a little bit loud?
[35:32.280 --> 35:33.740]  Sorry, English is not my first language.
[35:33.740 --> 35:34.420]  Oh, sorry.
[35:36.900 --> 35:55.140]  Basically, Stack Overflow, Stack Exchange recently opened a Portuguese site for Stack Overflow because there's a very large community of Portuguese programmers who didn't feel comfortable participating in the English language discussion, partially because English is not their first language,
[35:55.200 --> 35:57.400]  and it can be difficult to catch the nuances.
[35:57.740 --> 36:04.600]  And I was just wondering if you guys could talk about the role of language in being part of these spaces.
[36:05.400 --> 36:05.840]  Okay.
[36:06.300 --> 36:07.300]  I have an idea.
[36:07.620 --> 36:08.100]  Real quick.
[36:08.600 --> 36:08.840]  Go ahead.
[36:08.840 --> 36:13.320]  I just wanted to say, like, otherwise, English is not my first language.
[36:13.540 --> 36:22.700]  Clearly, Netherlands is one of the few countries that we have such a small language to ourselves that we kind of need to learn a lot of other languages, and it helps us a lot.
[36:22.700 --> 36:24.260]  But basically, we learn a lot of English.
[36:26.040 --> 36:37.920]  And what we do find is that there is a big divide in Europe between Germanic languages, like English, Germany, and Dutch in the Swedish country, and Romanian languages, on the other hand.
[36:37.920 --> 36:49.920]  And there is difficulty in combining, like, roughly seeing North and South Europe in that way, to combine the two language groups that are very different.
[36:50.220 --> 36:57.760]  And you do see that projects will either take place in one or the other language community group, so to say.
[36:58.780 --> 36:59.260]  Yeah.
[37:00.160 --> 37:02.420]  For the Netherlands, it doesn't affect too much, like I said.
[37:02.540 --> 37:08.160]  But I know it does hamper, like, Spanish and Italian-speaking citizens a lot.
[37:08.520 --> 37:14.420]  I think that this is where the bilingual, bicultural people come into play, like the human bridges.
[37:14.920 --> 37:17.140]  I think it's really important to recruit.
[37:17.540 --> 37:21.980]  Like, if you realize that there's a project and there's going to be multiple language, recruit.
[37:22.200 --> 37:23.820]  Like, put a call out, right?
[37:23.820 --> 37:31.120]  Like, we need bilingual, bicultural people that can kind of be, you know, conversation leaders and kind of translate and kind of bring that.
[37:31.640 --> 37:34.340]  That's exactly where I think it would work really well.
[37:36.820 --> 37:51.180]  Just to add, I guess, another dimension to the discussion, I'm wondering if anybody here on the panel or in the room has worked with integrating handicapped community to hackerspaces or whatever, or actual accessibility to working with machines.
[37:51.180 --> 37:53.880]  It's really an afterthought in commercial design.
[37:54.460 --> 37:54.940]  Yeah.
[37:55.600 --> 37:59.540]  I think that's a very good subject when it comes to disability.
[38:00.040 --> 38:05.380]  You will clearly see that people who don't have it don't understand how much it hampers you.
[38:05.500 --> 38:08.940]  And once you have it, it's like unavoidable and affects every part of your life.
[38:09.280 --> 38:18.160]  I know in Holland we do have an active group that is mainly focused on websites, making websites easily readable on different kind of machines.
[38:18.780 --> 38:21.160]  So, like, Douwe, I don't know how you said it in English, but...
[38:21.160 --> 38:24.420]  Or, like, that the text will automatically be read and out.
[38:25.000 --> 38:27.960]  When it comes to hackerspace, that's definitely an afterthought.
[38:28.240 --> 38:29.480]  And nobody's working on that.
[38:29.640 --> 38:33.260]  Although we had yesterday people attending the diversity group...
[38:34.740 --> 38:41.920]  Yeah, this issue was brought up in the diversity group, and it was a perfect example of why creating these spaces is so important.
[38:42.180 --> 38:45.760]  Because half of us in the group were like, man, we never thought about that, right?
[38:47.300 --> 38:47.820]  So...
[38:47.820 --> 38:48.120]  Yeah.
[38:48.800 --> 38:49.020]  Yeah.
[38:49.680 --> 38:51.500]  A few personal anecdotes on the subject.
[38:51.700 --> 38:52.540]  On accessibility.
[38:53.340 --> 39:00.640]  One is, I and many other hackers of my age are seeing our eyes deteriorate and unable to focus close.
[39:00.640 --> 39:15.320]  And a lot of internal complaints I had in my previous employer were that all the tools, internal tools, and one man even mentioned external tools, were not designed to...
[39:15.320 --> 39:20.160]  You know, if you hit control or whatever it is to increase the font size, all sorts of things...
[39:20.160 --> 39:21.020]  JavaScripts broke.
[39:21.380 --> 39:24.420]  And the usual answer, well, you're not our target demographic.
[39:24.860 --> 39:30.260]  Well, that was not the explicit answer, but if you read between the lines, essentially that's what they were telling you.
[39:30.260 --> 39:31.980]  And that was extremely annoying.
[39:32.540 --> 39:33.480]  My current job...
[39:33.480 --> 39:35.340]  One little thing I did for actually internal thing...
[39:35.340 --> 39:36.260]  I'm not color blind.
[39:36.400 --> 39:37.420]  I have good color vision.
[39:37.720 --> 39:40.680]  But in the past, I taught classes.
[39:40.880 --> 39:43.640]  And, you know, when you teach classes these days, you put all these color diagrams.
[39:44.080 --> 39:47.560]  And one of my students said, you know, I have Jeter and Opie.
[39:47.680 --> 39:48.880]  I cannot distinguish these colors.
[39:49.080 --> 39:49.820]  Could you do something?
[39:49.940 --> 39:50.660]  I said, oh, I'm sorry.
[39:51.400 --> 39:55.140]  So now every time I design something that has multiple colors...
[39:55.140 --> 40:03.060]  In fact, a recent patch I submitted internally was, you know, our graphs are not in color contrasting colors.
[40:03.260 --> 40:12.120]  Here are eight colors out of this site that will make it possible for the 6% of engineers who are color blind to be able to actually immediately read the results.
[40:12.380 --> 40:14.780]  And, you know, that got some positive things.
[40:15.180 --> 40:17.020]  So, yeah, there you go.
[40:18.940 --> 40:21.280]  Also, I'll come back to the mic later.
[40:21.280 --> 40:21.520]  Okay.
[40:21.660 --> 40:28.200]  I would just add that that also increases overall usability in general when you start to think of problems from a different perspective.
[40:28.600 --> 40:28.800]  Yep.
[40:28.980 --> 40:29.060]  Yeah.
[40:29.900 --> 40:48.900]  One of the problems with recruiting new people and getting folks who are more beginners, as you were talking about, is the barriers to entry to becoming involved in a FLOSS project that's already ongoing.
[40:50.480 --> 40:59.900]  Even just learning the tools that you have to know in order to contribute is a barrier for somebody who isn't already technical.
[41:00.120 --> 41:01.740]  I mean, what is this Git thing?
[41:02.700 --> 41:04.040]  How am I supposed to...
[41:04.040 --> 41:06.120]  Oh, it says just download...
[41:06.120 --> 41:08.080]  What am I supposed to do here?
[41:08.180 --> 41:13.280]  How do I contribute if I want to do one of these things that they always say is important?
[41:13.280 --> 41:14.580]  Oh, we've got to get documentation.
[41:15.040 --> 41:18.040]  Oh, we've got to get user feedback.
[41:18.940 --> 41:29.960]  When the barrier to participating at the non-programming level is substantial because the tools aren't comprehensible.
[41:30.660 --> 41:32.280]  I totally agree.
[41:32.480 --> 41:40.660]  Like, I fell into open-source by coincidence or just by accident because my first entry was as a paid staff.
[41:40.940 --> 41:41.760]  It wasn't as a volunteer.
[41:42.120 --> 41:46.100]  But I can guarantee you that if I had not been a paid staff, there's no idea.
[41:46.260 --> 41:49.160]  I didn't even know that this existed because I'm not a developer.
[41:49.360 --> 41:50.800]  I'm not like a tech person, you know?
[41:51.200 --> 41:52.600]  So, yeah, I totally agree with you.
[41:52.720 --> 41:57.280]  Like, finding ways to make that channel more open and more accessible is such an important thing.
[41:57.540 --> 41:58.060]  And you know what?
[41:58.160 --> 42:00.080]  Maybe it doesn't have to be per project.
[42:00.260 --> 42:09.520]  Like, maybe all the projects can come together and maybe create some type of, you know, process or system that, like, do outreach together, do an outreach project together.
[42:09.720 --> 42:10.380]  But yeah, totally.
[42:13.060 --> 42:25.960]  I was interested in the remarks earlier about distinction between an emphasis on libertarianism and free speech in the United States and social justice in Latin America.
[42:25.960 --> 42:29.760]  And I was wondering if you could provide some concrete examples of that.
[42:29.760 --> 42:38.980]  And also, if you have any thoughts on what relationship, if any, that distinction might have between free software and open-source.
[42:41.180 --> 42:48.400]  I mean, for this presentation, I was mostly, like, the mouthpiece, like, for this community, right?
[42:48.520 --> 42:51.480]  Particularly, I mean, I spoke with a lot of people that didn't even speak English, right?
[42:51.700 --> 42:52.780]  And I think that...
[42:55.380 --> 42:58.700]  I don't know, like, in Latin America, this is just my perspective, right?
[42:58.700 --> 43:00.500]  Like, I don't know if this is what they meant by that.
[43:00.600 --> 43:06.340]  But, like, in Latin America, you have this huge history of social, kind of social revolution.
[43:06.620 --> 43:08.760]  Like, liberation theology comes out of there.
[43:08.980 --> 43:15.840]  Like, it's a, you know, an area that, like, has experienced a lot of social struggles.
[43:16.000 --> 43:18.800]  I mean, here in the United States, we did, but, like, in different ways, right?
[43:19.120 --> 43:21.080]  And I also think that...
[43:21.660 --> 43:23.140]  Again, this is just my perspective.
[43:24.360 --> 43:28.500]  Like, most Latins come from a very religious background, right?
[43:28.840 --> 43:32.700]  A lot of us are Catholics, or at least, you know, that influences us.
[43:32.840 --> 43:35.160]  So, social justice like that is really important.
[43:35.340 --> 43:39.080]  So, it kind of tinges everything that we do, right?
[43:39.320 --> 43:42.660]  Whereas in the U.S., like, even though it's, like, religious, it's a little bit...
[43:42.660 --> 43:47.680]  You know, it's like maybe less has that Catholic tinge to it.
[43:47.680 --> 43:48.800]  I mean, that's my perspective.
[43:48.980 --> 43:50.180]  I don't know if this is what they meant.
[43:50.220 --> 43:53.200]  And I could definitely go back to the community and ask without a problem.
[43:53.800 --> 43:55.300]  But that's just my point of view.
[43:56.860 --> 43:57.440]  Thank you.
[43:57.720 --> 43:59.460]  We have five minutes left.
[43:59.840 --> 44:01.640]  So, and there are two more questions.
[44:01.880 --> 44:03.200]  So, that looks perfect.
[44:03.460 --> 44:03.760]  Great.
[44:04.380 --> 44:04.780]  Hi.
[44:04.980 --> 44:08.940]  I first want to point out something I feel like this panel could have addressed.
[44:09.800 --> 44:14.840]  You know, like, we didn't necessarily acknowledge how incredibly white and male dominated this conference is.
[44:15.160 --> 44:16.640]  And I think that's just, like, worth noting.
[44:17.400 --> 44:21.760]  And two, when you were talking about the language barrier, I found that really interesting.
[44:22.460 --> 44:29.200]  The first thing I thought of was the histories of English speaking, imperialism, and all of that kind of thing.
[44:29.420 --> 44:31.280]  And, like, the behaviors of what those people are like.
[44:31.420 --> 44:36.840]  And, like, how that translates into how just regular ass people in open-source communities work today.
[44:37.100 --> 44:37.980]  And maybe you can speak to that a bit.
[44:38.140 --> 44:38.300]  Thanks.
[44:41.000 --> 44:41.720]  Anyone else?
[44:41.720 --> 44:51.180]  But perhaps specifically, like, if we should even consider, like, actively working against the dominance of the English language in open-source communities.
[44:51.800 --> 44:52.300]  Ooh.
[44:52.720 --> 44:52.880]  That's...
[44:52.880 --> 44:54.120]  I find that common offensive.
[44:54.420 --> 44:55.800]  That's a really good question.
[44:55.800 --> 45:05.020]  Yeah, I had people, in Germany especially, who would say, sorry for speaking the language of empire, before they continue in English.
[45:05.540 --> 45:10.120]  So, there is a certain amount of awareness about that still.
[45:13.600 --> 45:15.760]  This is not something we are going to solve any time soon.
[45:16.180 --> 45:17.560]  You know, English is dominant.
[45:18.360 --> 45:20.340]  I'd say your culture from the U.S. is very dominant when it comes to Europe.
[45:23.900 --> 45:27.000]  And we have no quick way of working around that.
[45:27.540 --> 45:32.440]  But to do what we are actually aiming to do with this talk is to have more diversity in it.
[45:32.560 --> 45:35.680]  And slowly grinding away of the dominance.
[45:36.360 --> 45:45.560]  Of course, having a dominant culture in place means that people, part of the dominant culture, are never ever going to see their dominance as a problem.
[45:45.820 --> 45:47.100]  You know, they're in the luxury seat.
[45:48.180 --> 45:51.680]  Why should they spend time to come to the other person?
[45:52.400 --> 45:54.000]  And that's also something I can see.
[45:54.100 --> 45:57.000]  If you're working on a program, and working on programs is hard.
[45:57.140 --> 46:03.540]  And, you know, you come to the 90% finish and everybody knows the last 10% is going to be the hardest to actually get a program out of the door.
[46:03.540 --> 46:09.840]  And then somebody comes up to you and says, well, you know, your program is actually unusable by colorblind people.
[46:10.060 --> 46:11.360]  And you have to change that.
[46:12.280 --> 46:15.540]  That's like a big effort, especially when you're like a small group of developers.
[46:16.980 --> 46:28.660]  But basically what I also try to get across in my talk, mostly when you're working on surveillance technology, privacy tools, stuff that has to do really with the basic security of people.
[46:29.660 --> 46:32.840]  This is not like an Angry Birds game you're trying to get out of the door.
[46:33.140 --> 46:34.860]  People's lives depend on that.
[46:34.860 --> 46:41.800]  And you cannot really afford to have your code f*ck up like a journalist because somewhere his source is leaking.
[46:42.300 --> 46:44.180]  And that's just a different responsibility.
[46:44.180 --> 46:51.260]  And then you know that the diversity and the knowledge of all the non-dominant cultures is actually going to make your program a lot better.
[46:51.260 --> 46:54.380]  Also, this is related, like this is a tangent.
[46:54.680 --> 47:00.840]  But I always, always have like my support group of other diverse people in open-source.
[47:01.140 --> 47:05.980]  Because sometimes like when you're having arguments, you don't know if it's cultural or if it's personality.
[47:06.400 --> 47:09.400]  And I will totally rely on them and be like, help me.
[47:09.540 --> 47:10.200]  I'm going crazy.
[47:10.340 --> 47:11.320]  Like I'm doubting myself.
[47:11.560 --> 47:12.620]  Is this a cultural thing?
[47:12.820 --> 47:14.540]  Is this like, are they being in it?
[47:14.640 --> 47:15.020]  You know, whatever.
[47:15.020 --> 47:18.400]  And I think so cultivating that network is super, super important.
[47:18.660 --> 47:19.000]  Okay.
[47:19.340 --> 47:20.420]  We have to wrap up.
[47:20.520 --> 47:21.580]  Is it going to be one more question?
[47:22.000 --> 47:23.260]  We have to wrap up.
[47:23.260 --> 47:23.700]  Thank you.
[47:23.840 --> 47:24.680]  Thank you, you guys.
[47:25.500 --> 47:26.280]  Thanks so much.
[47:29.380 --> 47:30.300]  So come to...
[47:32.160 --> 47:35.400]  I just wanted to say, come to the Noisy Square if you want to meet up with us.
[47:35.400 --> 47:37.200]  Or we're going to be here next to the stage.
[47:37.400 --> 47:39.160]  And we'd love to have more input from you.
[47:39.160 --> 47:39.220]  Thank you.