[00:00.980 --> 00:09.220]  You know, and I think diversity of opinion and thought and feeling and all this is what makes our community so amazing.
[00:09.580 --> 00:18.320]  You know, we all do so many things and we're willing to share it with one another and that's what makes for a really wonderful community.
[00:19.020 --> 00:28.820]  And this panel is a bunch of people who have thought a lot about DARPA funding for their projects or their hackerspaces.
[00:28.820 --> 00:30.980]  And their lives.
[00:31.700 --> 00:37.060]  We all have... we all come from a very different place in all of this.
[00:37.320 --> 00:46.820]  And so we're all going to share our thoughts, feelings, opinions and in a respectful way, of course.
[00:47.260 --> 00:56.740]  And I hope everyone in the audience can respect people for their different opinions because that's what, as I said, makes for a strong community.
[00:58.860 --> 01:03.720]  Myself, I do have pretty strong opinions on this, as probably most of you know.
[01:04.500 --> 01:06.060]  I'm totally biased.
[01:06.080 --> 01:08.280]  Even though I'm a moderator, I am biased.
[01:08.400 --> 01:13.920]  But I don't want to use this panel to push for my point of view.
[01:13.920 --> 01:25.960]  I really do want this panel to present issues around DARPA funding and other funding sources that may or may not fit in with your goals.
[01:26.680 --> 01:28.740]  And see, you know, does that matter?
[01:29.260 --> 01:30.660]  For me, it does.
[01:30.940 --> 01:32.660]  For other people, maybe, maybe not.
[01:32.820 --> 01:33.420]  We'll find out.
[01:35.460 --> 01:44.920]  Yeah, so just a brief thing, a brief word about my background in this subject.
[01:45.360 --> 01:53.960]  In April, I made a public statement on Facebook and Google, various social networks, all exactly the same message.
[01:53.960 --> 01:55.400]  And I'll just read it.
[01:55.560 --> 01:56.500]  It's very simple.
[01:57.440 --> 01:58.340]  It's official.
[01:58.820 --> 02:02.820]  I'm greatly saddened that I won't be able to help at this year's U.S.
[02:02.920 --> 02:06.640]  Maker Faires after they applied for and accepted a grant from DARPA.
[02:06.640 --> 02:12.920]  I look forward to working and playing at Maker Faires again after they are no longer associated with DARPA.
[02:13.660 --> 02:15.260]  That was my entire statement.
[02:15.720 --> 02:20.540]  It caused quite a flurry in various sectors of the Internet.
[02:21.480 --> 02:23.160]  Some respectful, some not.
[02:23.500 --> 02:25.880]  And that was not easy to deal with for me personally.
[02:26.100 --> 02:37.480]  But I'm really glad I made that statement because it got a lot of dialogue happening around this subject where there really are no simple, easy rights and wrongs.
[02:37.680 --> 02:40.460]  And it's actually quite complex if you try to think about it.
[02:42.580 --> 02:50.880]  For me, Maker Faires has been an incredible, unambiguously wonderful part of my life since the first one in 2006.
[02:51.260 --> 02:56.660]  I never imagined I would have to think about difficult issues surrounding my involvement with them.
[02:58.580 --> 03:03.600]  And I don't really want to go into my reasons for this.
[03:03.700 --> 03:08.760]  But it was way not easy choice for me to come to to not help.
[03:09.160 --> 03:10.980]  Because I miss it greatly.
[03:13.800 --> 03:22.680]  So DARPA, for people who don't know, is the Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency.
[03:22.680 --> 03:30.300]  And according to their website, their mission is to maintain the technological superiority of the U.S.
[03:30.440 --> 03:44.180]  military and prevent technological surprise from harming our national security by sponsoring revolutionary, high payoff research, bridging the gap between fundamental discoveries and their military use.
[03:45.260 --> 03:46.620]  That's from their website.
[03:46.620 --> 03:52.720]  From the Wikipedia page, the current budget is $3.2 billion this year.
[03:55.520 --> 03:58.940]  DARPA grants are becoming more and more available.
[04:00.280 --> 04:08.900]  The one for Maker Faire used for their mentor program is $10 million for renewable over a number of years.
[04:10.040 --> 04:14.880]  And for putting 1,000 hackerspaces in high schools, essentially.
[04:17.460 --> 04:25.020]  And they are making grants available through someone from our community who calls himself Mudge, who I don't believe I've ever met.
[04:25.300 --> 04:30.380]  I asked him to be on the panel, but he didn't want to take a public position.
[04:30.420 --> 04:32.180]  So unfortunately, he won't be here.
[04:32.320 --> 04:37.280]  But the panel we have, I think, is really representative of a lot of really cool points of view.
[04:39.860 --> 04:43.300]  So just some ground rules just to keep things cool.
[04:45.120 --> 04:50.440]  You know, again, we don't all need to agree with each other, but we certainly can all respect each other for our differences.
[04:51.340 --> 04:57.960]  And I would request that people in the audience, please don't applaud during the panel.
[04:58.740 --> 05:00.560]  After the panel, go crazy.
[05:01.220 --> 05:06.980]  But that just can be kind of disruptive for expressing different points of view.
[05:09.180 --> 05:21.040]  So rather than me introduce people, why don't each of you introduce yourselves and, you know, just briefly and say, you know, what you've done in the hacker community that got you here.
[05:23.060 --> 05:27.320]  So I'm Cytec of Alpha One Labs, co-founded about three years ago.
[05:27.800 --> 05:41.320]  And the reason I'm on this panel today is because we were one of the hackerspaces that is part of the hackerspace space program that is getting a $500,000 grant to work on space projects at hackerspaces.
[05:42.440 --> 05:43.940]  And that's that.
[05:45.700 --> 05:46.800]  I'm Willow Blue.
[05:47.200 --> 05:49.120]  I co-founded Jigsaw Renaissance.
[05:49.120 --> 05:57.800]  And I work now with an organization called Geeks Without Bounds, which links together hacker and maker and developer communities to humanitarian response organizations.
[05:59.140 --> 06:05.900]  So I have a, I have to interact with the military day to day because they're really good at moving stuff in disaster.
[06:06.600 --> 06:22.780]  And I also think that hackerspaces are not only, or as a completely separate viewpoint, I think that hackerspaces are places of education and also good indicators of resiliency in a community because we care about talking to each other and surviving the zombie apocalypse.
[06:25.830 --> 06:27.750]  I too am afraid of the zombie apocalypse.
[06:28.470 --> 06:29.730]  My name is Matt Joyce.
[06:30.130 --> 06:39.250]  I was a member at NYC Resistor until I took a contract gig out at NASA Ames Research Center two years ago, which has just recently ended.
[06:39.610 --> 06:42.290]  I am still in San Francisco and we're doing startup work now.
[06:43.970 --> 06:47.150]  Hi, my name is Fiacre O'Duinn, and I'm a librarian from Ontario.
[06:47.390 --> 06:54.550]  And for the last three or four years, I've been traveling around to library conferences and hackerspaces, and trying to actually bring hackerspaces into libraries, basically.
[06:55.410 --> 07:02.510]  My interest in the DARPA make cases really, I just wrote some blog entries about it that seem to be quite popular.
[07:02.790 --> 07:04.750]  I do what librarians do and did research.
[07:06.970 --> 07:09.510]  And looked at stuff like military recruitment, et cetera, et cetera.
[07:09.610 --> 07:11.430]  And that was, I think, why it brought me here.
[07:12.490 --> 07:12.790]  Yeah.
[07:13.230 --> 07:13.970]  Well, thanks everyone.
[07:15.050 --> 07:23.090]  So, let's just start off with, you know, just generally, why does this particular topic interest you?
[07:23.450 --> 07:26.630]  And anyone want to say that?
[07:28.950 --> 07:30.110]  You go for it, Willow.
[07:30.470 --> 07:30.650]  Okay.
[07:31.610 --> 07:39.390]  I think it's important to talk about this because our life, the military in general is a fact.
[07:39.390 --> 07:40.370]  It's out there.
[07:40.670 --> 07:43.870]  And we have to figure out how we're going to interact with it.
[07:44.630 --> 07:48.590]  I'm very much on the fence constantly of where I stand on this.
[07:48.910 --> 08:00.650]  I wish that we were the sort of community that we would all stand together and decide that we don't need them and that we're going to build our new society and very staunchly state that and move forward with it.
[08:01.270 --> 08:02.070]  We're not.
[08:02.830 --> 08:11.110]  And so, I'm up to do the best that we can and be as loving and supportive of each other as we can be in the meantime.
[08:11.450 --> 08:15.090]  So, I really want to hear what everyone is up to and that's why I'm here.
[08:18.240 --> 08:30.860]  So, the fundamental reason that I wanted to be on this panel was to focus on what I believe is the real issue at hand here, which is ethics as it relates specifically to STEM initiatives and engineering in particular.
[08:31.760 --> 08:39.380]  The things that we do at hackerspaces and in the open source community are by and large released out into the world without much guidance.
[08:39.920 --> 08:46.780]  We create things and we let them loose on the world and they will be co-opted by other people and made to be used.
[08:47.140 --> 08:58.580]  So, I think it's important that people sit down and have a conversation with the people that they know and with themselves about what it is that you're working on and whether or not you're able to accept what will come of it.
[09:01.140 --> 09:03.880]  Yeah, my main interest was the Make DARPA partnership.
[09:03.880 --> 09:11.020]  And again, for reasons very similar to that, it was problems of ethics and there was very little discussion about this online really.
[09:11.180 --> 09:18.020]  And it was... the reason why I wanted to be here was to have more face-to-face discussion and to kind of continue the discussion about what's really a very... a pretty complex issue.
[09:21.090 --> 09:27.530]  So, yeah, we are part of the Hackerspace Space Program and I also am on the fence.
[09:27.850 --> 09:41.550]  And we are going to... the way we're going to structure the program at Alpha One Labs is that the DARPA funding is going to the Hackerspace Space Program, which is a group at Alpha One Labs, sort of like a meet-up.
[09:41.810 --> 09:43.170]  So, it's a separate entity.
[09:43.350 --> 09:45.990]  And that's... that's going to enable everyone to participate.
[09:46.790 --> 09:50.550]  And in a way that's... good that I think.
[09:51.570 --> 10:09.710]  Yeah, and it is kind of interesting, you know, from our various points of views, it's still not obvious to us here, and I think anyone who's thought through... tried to think through these for themselves, that it's not an easy set of issues to come... to balance off with one another.
[10:09.870 --> 10:16.530]  There's pluses, there's minuses, and some of the pluses and minuses are hard to balance off.
[10:16.530 --> 10:25.230]  Like, a plus for the Maker Faire Associated Program Mentor is a thousand hackerspaces in high schools.
[10:25.850 --> 10:29.970]  I mean, anyone here, I think, would think that's an amazingly cool thing.
[10:30.770 --> 10:34.470]  The minuses are going to be different for different people.
[10:35.370 --> 10:41.130]  From my point of view, you know, the people at DARPA are doing it to enhance their goals.
[10:41.150 --> 10:43.150]  And from my point of view, those aren't my goals.
[10:43.150 --> 10:46.870]  So, I'm somehow helping them if I'm helping that program.
[10:47.070 --> 10:48.150]  How do you balance that?
[10:49.830 --> 10:52.930]  So, for that, I really don't know.
[10:53.590 --> 10:59.370]  I do the best, at the time, best of my ability to come up with my choice.
[10:59.650 --> 11:00.870]  Is that the right one?
[11:01.510 --> 11:02.330]  I don't know.
[11:02.910 --> 11:09.270]  So, you want to address that in, like, SciTech for the space program?
[11:09.790 --> 11:12.070]  Address, like, the pluses and the minuses?
[11:12.810 --> 11:13.330]  Sure.
[11:13.550 --> 11:21.810]  One of the things that I'm kind of concerned about is that, you know, if you grow a piece of salary in red water, it's going to be red.
[11:22.170 --> 11:27.870]  If you're at Google and you get 30% of your time to work on a project, it's going to be related to Google.
[11:29.390 --> 11:36.290]  I'm just wondering how this DARPA defense contract money is going to influence these projects.
[11:37.810 --> 11:39.670]  So, yeah, I want to bring that to the table.
[11:42.610 --> 11:49.670]  Actually, someone from the DOD once told me that sometimes the worst thing that can happen is that your project gets funded.
[11:51.510 --> 11:53.450]  Not just from them, but in general.
[11:54.470 --> 12:04.030]  One of the things that this community is so fantastic at is doing stuff with a popsicle stick and a shoestring that we found in the couch.
[12:04.730 --> 12:07.730]  We make do with what we can and that's what makes us incredible.
[12:09.430 --> 12:10.630]  We open source things.
[12:11.770 --> 12:12.970]  We're awesome at that.
[12:13.150 --> 12:18.950]  And so, it's vital to me that we ask, what do we need money for?
[12:19.650 --> 12:20.850]  How much do we need?
[12:20.930 --> 12:22.550]  Is it absolutely necessary?
[12:23.830 --> 12:28.750]  And then, what are all of the sources that we might gain funding for it from?
[12:30.750 --> 12:34.130]  And if you've done all of that research, then that's...
[12:34.130 --> 12:36.730]  Then I think you're good to go in whatever you decide.
[12:36.730 --> 12:37.790]  I think you're an adult.
[12:38.010 --> 12:38.910]  You can do whatever you want.
[12:39.290 --> 12:42.510]  As long as you don't hurt the evolution of an idea.
[12:42.690 --> 12:42.830]  Whatever.
[12:43.090 --> 12:44.550]  Or de-evolution of an idea.
[12:46.410 --> 12:47.430]  Yeah, I'll leave it there.
[12:50.610 --> 12:52.890]  I guess I'm supposed to come up with positives and negatives.
[12:53.390 --> 12:54.970]  I think the positive is obvious.
[12:55.250 --> 12:55.570]  Money.
[12:55.870 --> 12:58.170]  Money provides the capacity to do things.
[12:58.430 --> 13:01.210]  It is the lubricant to the engine of ideas.
[13:03.590 --> 13:07.390]  DARPA, in and of itself, as stated in its mission, has a military goal.
[13:07.510 --> 13:09.130]  A very specific military goal.
[13:09.410 --> 13:16.370]  That means that anything that you do in relation to them is, in effect, furthering the military prowess of the United States.
[13:16.370 --> 13:27.170]  Which means you are, in effect, a secondary supporter of a machine that does exist for the functional purpose of military conflict.
[13:27.370 --> 13:30.450]  In short, killing people or defending people.
[13:32.130 --> 13:35.230]  The positive is, is that STEM initiatives are good.
[13:35.490 --> 13:41.610]  It's one of the biggest problems that we have today in America, is our educational system is, in many places, failing.
[13:42.110 --> 13:46.590]  And children need a better outreach for kinetic learning.
[13:46.830 --> 13:48.530]  They need wood shops again.
[13:48.710 --> 13:53.930]  They need to be able to get access to CNC equipment, to programming, to technical resources like FIRST.
[13:54.530 --> 13:56.530]  Something like this helps provide that.
[13:58.630 --> 14:05.090]  Yeah, as far as the pluses, the thousand hackerspaces, that's not only in North America, that's actually going to be worldwide in three years.
[14:05.270 --> 14:06.310]  It's not just the U.S.
[14:06.350 --> 14:07.750]  because people keep saying it's the U.S.
[14:07.750 --> 14:08.090]  It's not.
[14:08.190 --> 14:08.750]  It's going to be worldwide.
[14:08.750 --> 14:15.210]  So you're looking at a huge... like, it's basically PR for hackerspaces and hacker culture.
[14:15.390 --> 14:16.370]  Like, that's enormous, right?
[14:16.590 --> 14:17.490]  A thousand worldwide.
[14:18.990 --> 14:25.650]  One of the minuses, and a main one for me, is the problems of military recruitment and STEM education in high schools.
[14:26.470 --> 14:28.130]  Again, DARPA does not recruit that.
[14:28.210 --> 14:29.050]  It's not their concern.
[14:29.410 --> 14:31.590]  And people have said that to me, and I'm well aware of that.
[14:31.870 --> 14:33.150]  However, Army, U.S.
[14:33.210 --> 14:37.970]  Army recruiters do recruit, and they're extremely interested in STEM projects.
[14:37.970 --> 14:41.670]  There's actually a very interesting article I have here called What's All the Talk About STEM?
[14:41.950 --> 14:45.390]  from the January 2012 issue of the Army Recruiter magazine.
[14:45.650 --> 14:46.930]  You can just get this stuff online.
[14:47.670 --> 14:51.050]  Basically encouraging Army recruiters to go into STEM classrooms.
[14:51.710 --> 14:52.710]  So you have your STEM.
[14:52.830 --> 14:55.750]  That sounds a lot like, you know, the DARPA Make project, right?
[14:56.030 --> 14:57.770]  So they're kind of encouraging recruiters to go in there.
[14:58.170 --> 15:10.170]  And there's actually a great ACLU report called Soldiers of Misfortune that looks at problems with military recruitment in high schools, and also the legality of military recruitments in high schools.
[15:10.330 --> 15:14.050]  In 2002, the Senate ratified what's called the Optional Protocol.
[15:14.510 --> 15:17.890]  It's called the Optional Protocol on the Involvement of Children in Armed Conflict.
[15:18.530 --> 15:20.150]  This makes it illegal in the U.S.
[15:20.170 --> 15:24.090]  to try and recruit any child under the age of 17, involuntarily.
[15:24.630 --> 15:31.770]  If you look at the ACLU report, involuntary recruitment of children as young as 11 is very common in the U.S.
[15:31.770 --> 15:40.610]  And we know Army recruiters go after, you know, minorities and, you know, people from the working class, for example, tend to be targets for recruiters.
[15:42.210 --> 15:45.030]  So again, as a minus for me, that's a really big one.
[15:45.350 --> 15:50.950]  You know, you have basically hackerspaces in high schools being used to facilitate military recruitment.
[15:51.570 --> 15:54.470]  And in this case, which may be illegal.
[15:54.830 --> 15:56.890]  So I have a follow-up to that.
[15:57.650 --> 16:01.930]  I went to school in the Midwest, very rural area.
[16:02.790 --> 16:06.930]  There are already recruiters that are there all the time.
[16:08.550 --> 16:13.370]  And my personal opinion is that the best thing you can ever give anyone is more knowledge.
[16:14.170 --> 16:18.130]  And so they're already there.
[16:18.250 --> 16:20.990]  And we can keep pushing them out and trying to push them out.
[16:21.150 --> 16:23.190]  But I don't understand how that...
[16:23.190 --> 16:29.570]  It's a confounded argument in that the factors are...
[16:30.610 --> 16:31.890]  They're all tangled up together.
[16:34.150 --> 16:34.870]  Oh, sorry.
[16:34.950 --> 16:35.130]  Go ahead.
[16:35.270 --> 16:36.570]  I just wanted to add a positive note.
[16:36.770 --> 16:37.590]  Do you have a response to that?
[16:37.630 --> 16:39.570]  Do you want a response to that quickly and then I'll add on to it?
[16:39.770 --> 16:40.030]  No, no.
[16:40.090 --> 16:40.250]  Go ahead.
[16:40.370 --> 16:40.550]  Go ahead.
[16:42.670 --> 16:43.070]  So...
[16:44.390 --> 16:47.210]  Positive aspect of it is that it is going to be PR.
[16:47.390 --> 16:49.710]  It is going to be bringing money to hackerspaces.
[16:50.130 --> 16:53.430]  And the thing that goes on in hackerspaces a lot is hardware hacking.
[16:53.730 --> 16:55.170]  And hardware hacking takes money.
[16:55.490 --> 17:00.850]  It's not like software hacking where you can just download a library and incorporate it and finish your project in a few hours.
[17:01.070 --> 17:02.690]  You have to have money to make things happen.
[17:03.290 --> 17:05.710]  And I think this is going to innovate more funding for hackerspaces.
[17:06.810 --> 17:12.590]  And one of the ways that we're going to do it is we're going to take projects and put them through a crowdfunding site.
[17:12.790 --> 17:15.910]  And that crowdfunding site has agreed to match the funding.
[17:16.230 --> 17:18.190]  And what we're going to do is match that also.
[17:18.350 --> 17:21.930]  So we'll have triple vetting of projects going through these crowdfunding sites.
[17:22.050 --> 17:25.330]  So we'll know which ones are going to be good to make happen.
[17:27.850 --> 17:29.030]  Yeah, just like...
[17:29.530 --> 17:31.850]  It's quite funny actually when I spoke to people in Europe about this.
[17:31.910 --> 17:32.910]  They actually thought I was joking.
[17:33.390 --> 17:35.370]  When I said about the level of U.S...
[17:35.370 --> 17:37.130]  Like military recruitment in U.S. high schools.
[17:37.150 --> 17:38.650]  They actually thought I was making this stuff up.
[17:40.230 --> 17:41.390]  The thing is that I...
[17:41.390 --> 17:44.190]  I don't know how a lot of people feel about this in the hacker community.
[17:44.450 --> 17:47.790]  But do you think that what you're basically doing is given a gateway?
[17:47.790 --> 17:50.890]  And if you have massive public PR, right?
[17:50.970 --> 17:52.030]  You're looking at a thousand worldwide.
[17:52.290 --> 17:55.210]  And the connection is going to be in people's minds.
[17:56.690 --> 17:59.290]  This military hacker recruitment connection.
[17:59.610 --> 18:02.190]  This is not the first STEM project.
[18:02.350 --> 18:05.330]  There's one called DOD Starbase that some people in here might be familiar with.
[18:05.990 --> 18:07.230]  And already it's quite...
[18:07.230 --> 18:10.050]  And this explicitly, if you go and look, they're quite explicit about it.
[18:10.070 --> 18:11.330]  They do use this for recruitment.
[18:11.490 --> 18:12.310]  They're very interested in it.
[18:12.490 --> 18:20.090]  And actually someone gave testimony at Senna and just basically outright said, Yeah, we love DOD Starbase because it's a great way to recruit high school kids in the military.
[18:20.710 --> 18:21.710]  Just, you know, blatantly.
[18:22.890 --> 18:26.830]  So there's this problem about, do you want that connection to be made?
[18:27.630 --> 18:28.370]  You know, yeah.
[18:28.790 --> 18:30.330]  And it is going to be made.
[18:30.590 --> 18:31.290]  Like, that is the problem.
[18:31.530 --> 18:32.650]  You can already see them.
[18:32.730 --> 18:34.970]  You know, when you see articles like this, they're sharpening the knives.
[18:35.210 --> 18:37.110]  Going, can't wait to get in there.
[18:37.350 --> 18:38.950]  You know, to get to these kids.
[18:38.990 --> 18:40.090]  To start recruiting them.
[18:40.270 --> 18:43.470]  And when you read the Army Recruitment Man, you know, the stuff that's in there is shocking.
[18:43.470 --> 18:46.610]  About, you know, the school, this SRP program.
[18:46.790 --> 18:48.110]  The school recruitment program.
[18:48.590 --> 18:50.430]  Is, you know, target them as young as you can.
[18:51.070 --> 18:52.090]  Like, get them young.
[18:52.270 --> 18:54.670]  Because by the time they're 17, it's too late.
[18:56.930 --> 18:57.350]  Yeah.
[18:58.850 --> 19:01.010]  So, there's a lot of things that recruit in schools.
[19:01.030 --> 19:02.390]  Not just the DOD.
[19:03.130 --> 19:04.630]  There's religious organizations.
[19:06.550 --> 19:08.630]  There's corporate interests, capitalist organizations.
[19:09.330 --> 19:16.550]  You go out to a high school in Silicon Valley, and I assure you, the kids are running around trying to get into GitHub hackathons and things like that.
[19:16.710 --> 19:20.070]  And all of those have corporate sponsorships and so on and so forth.
[19:20.170 --> 19:26.890]  I think it's important to remember that the DOD's existence and the military that exists today is a reflection of ourselves.
[19:27.190 --> 19:33.810]  In so much as Google is a reflection of ourselves or any religion in your community is a reflection of your community.
[19:34.210 --> 19:39.370]  And hacker spaces are, in effect, communities and we will be a reflection of the people that are around us.
[19:39.450 --> 19:44.230]  I think it's important to remember that when someone is recruiting in a community, they're not alone.
[19:44.770 --> 19:46.450]  And there's a reason they're commuting.
[19:46.570 --> 19:48.810]  It's because there's money invested in this.
[19:48.990 --> 19:50.150]  We invested that money.
[19:50.310 --> 19:51.070]  All of us.
[19:53.010 --> 20:05.610]  So that's what it goes back to for me is that I think that it's an absolute necessity to have these relationships or that source of education for kids and for adults.
[20:05.950 --> 20:09.750]  I think that we should all have access to hacker spaces and the things that they bring.
[20:10.390 --> 20:12.170]  I would prefer it if it wasn't the military.
[20:12.370 --> 20:16.150]  I'd prefer it if it were this community doing that.
[20:16.590 --> 20:19.090]  I think that we absolutely need to be teachers.
[20:19.090 --> 20:25.650]  We need to have the attention span to stick with a kid over the course of an entire semester.
[20:25.930 --> 20:27.410]  Hopefully over several years.
[20:28.430 --> 20:31.590]  I would love to see us do this.
[20:32.450 --> 20:35.410]  But right now, this is a route.
[20:35.430 --> 20:37.450]  And it's basically the only one.
[20:39.130 --> 20:40.430]  The thing is, there are...
[20:40.430 --> 20:44.510]  You know, the reason why I do go to librarians and say, you know...
[20:44.510 --> 20:46.830]  And to hacker spaces saying, please come to the library.
[20:46.830 --> 20:49.230]  You know, there are other ways of doing this, right?
[20:49.550 --> 20:54.370]  Like one concern for me really with this is there's very few neutral spaces left in the world.
[20:55.070 --> 20:57.990]  You know, if you think about the public library, you know, very good...
[20:57.990 --> 21:00.290]  Anyone can come to the library and pretty much do.
[21:00.510 --> 21:01.830]  Read whatever the hell you want to read.
[21:01.910 --> 21:02.850]  Do whatever you want to do.
[21:03.190 --> 21:05.270]  Look up whatever you want on the computer, right?
[21:05.290 --> 21:06.470]  We are completely neutral.
[21:06.550 --> 21:10.290]  And we will defend your right to read and look whatever you want to the bitter end.
[21:10.750 --> 21:11.790]  That's kind of why we're there.
[21:11.790 --> 21:14.770]  To a large extent, that was my original interest in hacker spaces.
[21:15.130 --> 21:16.770]  You know, the model is very, very...
[21:16.770 --> 21:20.430]  There's a neutral space where you come in and you can destroy whatever the hell you want.
[21:20.550 --> 21:21.270]  Set it on fire.
[21:21.590 --> 21:22.590]  We don't care.
[21:22.970 --> 21:23.370]  Okay?
[21:23.570 --> 21:25.330]  As long as you clean up after yourself.
[21:25.670 --> 21:25.890]  Yes.
[21:26.830 --> 21:29.670]  Unfortunately, in public libraries, we don't make them clean up after themselves.
[21:30.030 --> 21:32.290]  And they're like peeing themselves and stuff.
[21:32.350 --> 21:32.850]  Oh, it's terrible.
[21:33.290 --> 21:34.850]  People can ask me stories later on.
[21:34.990 --> 21:35.870]  It's like we...
[21:35.870 --> 21:36.730]  You know, you guys...
[21:36.730 --> 21:38.790]  I always laugh when you talk about dealing with the public.
[21:38.790 --> 21:39.770]  We deal with the...
[21:39.770 --> 21:40.670]  With the public.
[21:41.010 --> 21:41.090]  You know?
[21:43.150 --> 21:43.490]  Um...
[21:43.490 --> 21:45.130]  And they do wet themselves, but that's fair enough.
[21:47.010 --> 21:47.350]  Um...
[21:47.350 --> 21:48.210]  And the thing...
[21:48.210 --> 21:51.590]  Like, a main concern is talking about, like, who's going to do, like, the idea of this education.
[21:52.490 --> 21:52.830]  Um...
[21:52.830 --> 21:54.150]  You know, Dale Daugherty, and I might be...
[21:54.150 --> 21:55.810]  Sorry, but I have the Lucky Charms accent.
[21:56.010 --> 21:57.090]  Sorry, I'm actually Irish.
[21:57.310 --> 21:58.670]  So I try to keep it at a two.
[21:59.150 --> 22:01.530]  And sometimes it goes up to an eight when I get excited.
[22:01.670 --> 22:03.690]  So if I say, someone, please warn me.
[22:03.690 --> 22:07.610]  And they, like, go, yeah, you're no longer even mildly...
[22:07.610 --> 22:08.850]  You know, you're crazy, right?
[22:09.090 --> 22:11.650]  It's now all Lucky and no Charmy is going on.
[22:14.650 --> 22:15.010]  Um...
[22:15.010 --> 22:20.230]  One of my main concerns, actually, and Dale Daugherty, when he does the PR for this thing, um...
[22:20.230 --> 22:22.230]  Is the example of the high school in Sebastopol.
[22:22.730 --> 22:23.090]  Um...
[22:23.090 --> 22:25.450]  Which I think, actually, Dale Daugherty's kids go to that high school, actually.
[22:25.510 --> 22:27.070]  I think that's one of the reasons why it was chosen.
[22:27.070 --> 22:28.390]  And very much, this...
[22:28.390 --> 22:30.650]  Right now, this is the jewel in the crown for this...
[22:30.650 --> 22:31.630]  For the DARPA make program.
[22:33.110 --> 22:33.470]  Um...
[22:33.470 --> 22:36.450]  But the high school is, like, I think it's an award-winning high school.
[22:36.690 --> 22:39.090]  You know, this is a high school for, like, quite wealthy people.
[22:39.290 --> 22:40.290]  You know, send their kids there.
[22:41.270 --> 22:41.630]  Um...
[22:41.630 --> 22:44.250]  How is this gonna pan out when we get to a hundred?
[22:45.230 --> 22:46.130]  To two hundred?
[22:46.610 --> 22:47.470]  To four hundred?
[22:47.910 --> 22:48.890]  To a thousand?
[22:49.730 --> 22:51.890]  You know, this model is not gonna...
[22:51.890 --> 22:52.550]  You know, it's gonna be...
[22:52.550 --> 22:54.230]  I really do believe it's just gonna go like that.
[22:54.970 --> 22:55.330]  Right?
[22:55.330 --> 22:58.330]  It's gonna be, like, substitute teachers getting paid a couple of dollars an hour.
[22:58.910 --> 23:01.990]  Stuck into this class going, You just teach us on this sheet of paper and shut your face.
[23:02.310 --> 23:06.030]  And then it's gonna be, you know, recruiters going, Yeah, I can do that for you.
[23:06.630 --> 23:08.510]  You know, I can do a much better job than you can.
[23:08.730 --> 23:10.170]  And also, even...
[23:10.170 --> 23:15.110]  There's large parts that, you know, are being left out of the discussion about the DARPA make thing.
[23:15.370 --> 23:17.590]  And one of that is the actual model that DARPA wants.
[23:18.450 --> 23:18.810]  Um...
[23:18.810 --> 23:19.730]  It's got three parts.
[23:19.830 --> 23:21.490]  The first is the digital fabrication.
[23:22.030 --> 23:25.090]  The second is using social media to allow kids to cooperate online.
[23:25.090 --> 23:28.130]  And the third is design challenges.
[23:28.430 --> 23:35.090]  The design challenges are quite interesting because they want them to do robots, go-karts, and unmanned, um...
[23:35.690 --> 23:36.250]  Aircraft.
[23:36.810 --> 23:38.130]  Which is drones.
[23:38.430 --> 23:39.030]  Drones, anyone?
[23:39.950 --> 23:40.510]  Um...
[23:40.510 --> 23:43.030]  And so, basically, that's what the design challenges will revolve around.
[23:43.030 --> 23:45.030]  So, right now, um...
[23:45.850 --> 23:47.730]  You know, the discussion is, no, it's all going to be quite open.
[23:47.790 --> 23:49.910]  The kids are going to be let do whatever they want to do.
[23:50.310 --> 23:51.630]  You know, they're going to have total freedom.
[23:51.850 --> 23:53.410]  Which is in Sebastopol.
[23:53.670 --> 23:57.790]  But you will see, as these start to develop, you know, there is actually a mission plan here.
[23:58.170 --> 23:59.250]  You know, I can actually read...
[23:59.250 --> 23:59.830]  It's quite funny.
[24:00.470 --> 24:00.830]  Um...
[24:00.830 --> 24:02.090]  The mission plan in...
[24:02.090 --> 24:05.970]  This is actually a quote from the two people that are managing the mentor project.
[24:05.970 --> 24:06.950]  It's, uh...
[24:06.950 --> 24:09.190]  Lieutenant Colonel Natan Weiderman and Paul Eremenko.
[24:09.750 --> 24:10.310]  And, uh...
[24:10.310 --> 24:11.850]  This is a quote from a presentation to GEV.
[24:12.110 --> 24:12.330]  Um...
[24:12.330 --> 24:15.830]  When originally they were looking for people to actually bid on funding.
[24:16.130 --> 24:17.150]  To bid for the event.
[24:18.250 --> 24:18.870]  And this...
[24:18.870 --> 24:21.590]  I think this slide was removed, actually, when they actually GEV it.
[24:21.950 --> 24:23.770]  But you can still find the presentation online.
[24:23.910 --> 24:24.290]  It's quite funny.
[24:24.470 --> 24:31.090]  And it says, The goal of it is to inculcate adaptive vehicle make-type design methods, such that they become, um...
[24:31.090 --> 24:34.090]  pervasive in subsequent generations of engineers.
[24:35.030 --> 24:36.110]  So, basically, it's...
[24:36.110 --> 24:39.790]  The goal for DARPA is to inculcate a military design methodology.
[24:41.530 --> 24:41.930]  Um...
[24:41.930 --> 24:42.630]  Into high school kids.
[24:42.650 --> 24:43.210]  Let me interject.
[24:43.390 --> 24:43.550]  Yeah.
[24:43.750 --> 24:46.150]  You've been saying a bunch of interesting points.
[24:46.310 --> 24:47.250]  There's probably...
[24:47.250 --> 24:48.130]  Other people who want to say...
[24:48.730 --> 24:49.930]  So, SciTech, you've been wanting to talk...
[24:49.930 --> 24:51.750]  Yeah, I think every contract is different.
[24:51.850 --> 24:56.590]  And one aspect of our contract is that we won't be able to collect names.
[24:56.890 --> 24:58.230]  And, um...
[24:58.230 --> 25:00.350]  I think that touches on the recruiting aspect.
[25:00.630 --> 25:03.030]  And, you know, there's not going to be any names involved, so...
[25:03.970 --> 25:07.050]  Yeah, I was talking to Jerry Isdale earlier with SciTech.
[25:07.150 --> 25:11.110]  And he mentioned that there's specific clauses about recruiting not being allowed.
[25:11.290 --> 25:13.650]  And I think that ties back into the legality arguments.
[25:13.870 --> 25:14.090]  Mm-hm.
[25:14.210 --> 25:17.310]  They recognize that the benefit here is in the STEM initiatives.
[25:17.310 --> 25:19.130]  As you're discussing with the...
[25:19.810 --> 25:20.250]  Yeah.
[25:20.250 --> 25:26.170]  The implementing that engineering approach and design approach for kids is more important to them than their recruitment.
[25:26.450 --> 25:30.770]  Because down the line, DARPA doesn't generally bring in engineering talent.
[25:30.970 --> 25:34.350]  What they do is they reach out to a company like Raytheon or CSC.
[25:34.450 --> 25:37.050]  And they say, hey, we need you to build something for us.
[25:37.430 --> 25:38.710]  Would you like to bid on the contract?
[25:39.030 --> 25:39.150]  Mm-hm.
[25:39.150 --> 25:44.830]  So the reality is many of the kids who would benefit from the DARPA STEM initiatives aren't going to be recruited into the military.
[25:44.970 --> 25:48.550]  What they're going to be doing is they're going to go out and get a job with the defense contractor.
[25:49.590 --> 25:51.010]  Or maybe with Intel.
[25:51.010 --> 25:54.450]  Maybe with, you know, some cooking manufacturing company.
[25:54.450 --> 25:55.010]  You never know.
[25:55.430 --> 25:58.430]  But I think that there is a...
[25:58.430 --> 26:01.390]  You're now at odds with yourself on their mission statement.
[26:01.570 --> 26:08.450]  I don't think that they can actively recruit while being an education initiative because of the laws around recruiting in schools.
[26:08.690 --> 26:08.850]  Mm-hm.
[26:11.710 --> 26:18.570]  So as far as the quadricopters and unmanned vehicles in general, those are some of the best puzzles out there.
[26:18.610 --> 26:21.330]  And I like quadcopters.
[26:21.330 --> 26:25.770]  I would much prefer that we also learn that because it exists now.
[26:25.930 --> 26:27.870]  We can't just ignore it and it'll go away.
[26:27.970 --> 26:29.270]  It's not like your ex.
[26:29.570 --> 26:31.310]  Or what we hope happens.
[26:33.750 --> 26:37.810]  I had a very nice quadricopter deliver me beer the other day.
[26:37.970 --> 26:40.570]  Like, we can do amazing things with this.
[26:40.750 --> 26:41.330]  And so...
[26:41.890 --> 26:48.150]  And also that that is already at the state that it is, state of the art that it is.
[26:49.350 --> 26:56.790]  Introducing school children to how to build robots is not going to help the military right now.
[26:57.110 --> 26:58.090]  Like, I know that...
[26:58.090 --> 27:02.510]  And as far as their methodology, they get shit done.
[27:02.830 --> 27:05.950]  Like, we need more rigor in what we do.
[27:06.050 --> 27:07.070]  We need more documentation.
[27:07.710 --> 27:07.990]  I...
[27:07.990 --> 27:17.870]  While I don't agree with inundating the ethics of it, I do agree with getting more of those values of just process.
[27:18.410 --> 27:19.930]  I think that's good.
[27:20.230 --> 27:22.910]  Do you think it's possible to separate those two?
[27:23.990 --> 27:34.130]  I think if we have enough conversations around it and continue calling each other out on what is ethical and what is not, I think it's definitely possible to separate those things out.
[27:35.950 --> 27:43.950]  I'd say from a military standpoint, you look at a line soldier, what they're taught is they have to obey the chain of command.
[27:44.410 --> 27:51.970]  When you join the United States military, you're given a gun, you're pointed in a direction, and you're told that you're allowed to shoot certain people, you're not allowed to shoot certain people.
[27:52.190 --> 27:55.310]  There's something of a suspension of morality that occurs there.
[27:55.310 --> 28:02.010]  You're allowing somebody the opportunity, not even opportunity, they're being told that it's okay, and you should.
[28:02.010 --> 28:02.950]  You're now a hero.
[28:03.190 --> 28:05.050]  You should go out and kill people.
[28:05.210 --> 28:06.870]  It's something that nobody wants to do.
[28:06.990 --> 28:09.210]  No one wakes up in the morning and wants to go out and shoot someone.
[28:09.430 --> 28:13.330]  In fact, many soldiers fire high when they first start combat.
[28:13.670 --> 28:27.770]  The reality is, is that the way the military exists today is that the people running around in the field have suspended their morality, and they're following command regulations on what they're allowed to shoot at, when they're allowed to shoot.
[28:28.270 --> 28:36.010]  And they're expecting their leadership and their elected representatives to provide guidance in what is ethical, what is right.
[28:37.010 --> 28:48.110]  So I would say that, to a certain extent, you do have to recognize that some of the process that exists inside of the logistics of the United States military is built around that mechanism.
[28:48.810 --> 28:51.590]  And yes, some of it's probably difficult to disassociate.
[28:53.930 --> 29:09.230]  Those chains of command are starting to be flattened in some ways, though, where now it's not quite to the individual yet, but they're working on it moving where it's just, here is your objective, the unit figures out how to do it.
[29:10.190 --> 29:19.930]  And I know that the military does some horrible things that are unacceptable, and that ties very deeply to what our politicians think are the best routes.
[29:20.210 --> 29:26.330]  And we, again, take on some responsibility, figure out how to interact with that, or how to actively tear it down.
[29:29.790 --> 29:31.590]  But it's moving away from that.
[29:31.590 --> 29:38.390]  And that adaptation is also going to allow disaster response to happen in a much more effective way.
[29:41.190 --> 29:48.810]  Most of the time, people will try to solve, which is a false word, a situation without harming anyone.
[29:52.510 --> 29:58.270]  Yeah, well, let me go off a little bit different direction.
[29:58.550 --> 30:16.010]  So, one of the things I totally love about this whole scene, the hacker movement as I see it, and make affairs, is people are doing what they're doing because they love it, whether or not it makes money.
[30:16.010 --> 30:22.030]  And that's one of the reasons that it was such an incredibly high experience for me the first time I went to a maker fair.
[30:22.850 --> 30:33.990]  There were 20,000 introverted geeks, all wanting to share enthusiastically the projects that they love and learn from other people doing the same.
[30:35.390 --> 30:36.730]  You know, like here.
[30:37.610 --> 30:44.030]  This is what makes this place, you know, here are 2,000 of our closest friends, all sharing what they love.
[30:45.410 --> 30:47.710]  Money can change that.
[30:49.890 --> 31:02.830]  Here we live in, you know, we're surrounded by the United States, where, and the rest of the world, our modern world, it seems to be more and more about money than anything else, even if money doesn't particularly make people happy.
[31:03.170 --> 31:05.710]  So, I wonder if you can address that.
[31:05.710 --> 31:20.430]  So, in the particular, the grant for the maker fair, it's $10 million, is my understanding, to be given possibly over a period of years, renewable each year.
[31:21.030 --> 31:24.850]  What are people willing to do or not do in order to make that funding more likely?
[31:25.030 --> 31:26.270]  And does that change things?
[31:26.530 --> 31:28.430]  So, that was kind of a leading question.
[31:28.430 --> 31:31.410]  But, you know, seriously, what do you think of all that?
[31:32.470 --> 31:36.890]  I think the HSP program is prepared for a wild ride here.
[31:38.110 --> 31:38.710]  And...
[31:38.710 --> 31:39.530]  Hackerspace.
[31:39.690 --> 31:40.950]  Hackerspace space program.
[31:44.450 --> 31:55.530]  Yeah, I just hope that we're going to see some amazing, awesome innovation, and inventions, and things come out of it.
[31:55.750 --> 31:59.130]  But, I definitely know it's going to be a wild ride.
[32:02.390 --> 32:03.290]  Do you want to go?
[32:03.630 --> 32:03.810]  Sure.
[32:04.790 --> 32:09.610]  I will say that grant initiatives are something that many hackerspaces have looked into.
[32:09.610 --> 32:13.210]  I know many hackerspaces have attempted to get grants.
[32:13.470 --> 32:18.130]  And if you've ever gotten a grant or work in research, you know that getting your first grant is the hardest.
[32:18.570 --> 32:26.230]  If you have no back history or no one on your board that's had or worked in large grants before, you're almost immediately shot down.
[32:26.690 --> 32:45.710]  So, the DARPA proposals that are coming into hackerspaces are providing an avenue for future grant money to come into hackerspaces, providing greater legitimacy and a capacity for your local hackerspace to reach out to local community colleges and local government on a more equal footing.
[32:46.010 --> 32:51.630]  I think there's certainly a huge amount of benefit outside of just the monetary value.
[32:51.790 --> 32:54.690]  Ten million dollars is not that much on a national scale.
[32:55.570 --> 33:00.610]  It's effectively being able to give, like, a penny to every kid in the country.
[33:00.610 --> 33:01.790]  It's not much.
[33:02.110 --> 33:05.070]  So, I think the real benefits are in the future.
[33:08.100 --> 33:12.840]  So, how many people here pay dues to a hackerspace?
[33:14.460 --> 33:15.080]  Okay.
[33:15.200 --> 33:17.100]  How many do it with any regularity?
[33:18.620 --> 33:19.240]  Okay.
[33:19.900 --> 33:35.520]  So, as someone who has had to make sure that the bills can get paid, it's really stressful, especially because the hackerspace that I co-founded was not backed by wealthy people.
[33:36.140 --> 33:42.040]  We didn't have someone who could swoop in if we couldn't make rent and just pay it.
[33:43.140 --> 33:46.520]  And if we really wanted to make it happen, we had to figure out how.
[33:47.180 --> 33:51.040]  This ties very much into just general maintenance of things.
[33:51.040 --> 33:53.060]  It goes to the cleaning up after yourself.
[33:53.280 --> 34:10.460]  It goes to the amount of social responsibility that you take on that includes taking out the trash sometimes and doing the dishes, not just your own, but also the extra cup that was left there, that allows things to continue in a sustainable fashion.
[34:11.320 --> 34:24.200]  And sometimes, looking at a very large chunk of money and seeing that you could just focus on the things that you love for a while and see them come to full fruition is incredibly, incredibly alluring.
[34:25.020 --> 34:33.500]  And so, if we're all able to contribute a little bit more consistently, these sorts of things are less alluring.
[34:36.900 --> 34:39.220]  Yeah, it connects quite nicely to that.
[34:39.360 --> 34:47.080]  It's one of my biggest disappointments, actually, with the DARPA-MAKE thing was, I really didn't feel that Tim O'Reilly and MAKE had to go to DARPA for $10 million.
[34:47.600 --> 34:48.780]  That's not a lot of money.
[34:49.080 --> 34:50.620]  And I really do believe there was...
[34:50.620 --> 34:52.180]  Like, it's Tim O'Reilly, for God's sake.
[34:52.240 --> 34:57.840]  If the guy wants $10 million, I'm pretty sure people would be more than willing to, you know, do that for him.
[34:57.840 --> 34:58.640]  I think it could be done.
[34:59.260 --> 35:01.580]  And you'd have, basically, none of these issues at all.
[35:01.580 --> 35:03.140]  And I think when William Binney...
[35:03.140 --> 35:04.640]  I don't want to be unkind here.
[35:04.640 --> 35:05.460]  I'm not trying to.
[35:05.700 --> 35:20.340]  But when William Binney talked about government feeding, I think that might be a little, you know, again, you can never tell, but I get the feeling that might be kind of why that route was taken of we can get $10 million, we can get $10 million, we can get a lot more for something similar or whatever.
[35:24.090 --> 35:30.310]  I think it's important that this community remembers that MAKE is not in the business of helping our community.
[35:30.330 --> 35:32.690]  They're in the business of helping every community.
[35:32.690 --> 35:41.310]  And getting out beyond this community means getting big names involved that everyone can be aware of and have some level of respect for.
[35:41.690 --> 35:43.990]  For better or for worse, DARPA is a big name.
[35:44.230 --> 35:48.030]  They are well-respected throughout academia and against large corporations.
[35:48.030 --> 35:52.130]  So I think that is where the fundamental value was beyond just the money.
[35:54.150 --> 35:54.770]  Yeah.
[35:55.170 --> 36:12.650]  So, no one really addressed the point I was trying or attempting to get to make about, you know, does the money change what people are willing to do or not to do in order to get more money?
[36:12.770 --> 36:17.830]  And in that way, it becomes less about doing what we love.
[36:18.410 --> 36:21.050]  That's one of the things that worries me.
[36:22.350 --> 36:23.750]  Do you have concerns like that?
[36:23.830 --> 36:27.310]  Or is that just like my point of view and you have a different one?
[36:30.090 --> 36:38.610]  That's sort of like what I mentioned before of like Google giving 20% of like your own time to do whatever you want.
[36:38.890 --> 36:41.250]  However, it ends up being like Google stuff.
[36:41.550 --> 36:46.930]  So I feel like this DARPA money is going to end up being like DARPA stuff.
[36:48.490 --> 36:48.970]  So...
[36:48.970 --> 36:51.890]  I think it absolutely depends on the person.
[36:52.570 --> 36:55.850]  There are people out there who see the value in money.
[36:56.030 --> 36:56.190]  Huh?
[36:56.330 --> 36:56.650]  Pun?
[36:57.050 --> 36:57.410]  Yes?
[36:57.650 --> 36:58.130]  Icebreaker?
[36:58.330 --> 36:58.490]  No?
[36:58.630 --> 36:58.790]  Okay.
[37:03.550 --> 37:04.350]  I'm trying.
[37:04.930 --> 37:09.490]  So, but for someone like me, I've been poor for most of my life.
[37:09.490 --> 37:13.830]  I'm pretty incredibly poor, especially if we were to look at the demographics of this room.
[37:14.290 --> 37:17.870]  Because no one could pay me enough to not do what I love.
[37:18.110 --> 37:20.630]  Like to take time out of my day to go and do something else.
[37:22.190 --> 37:28.630]  So when people have offered money for things that I didn't care about, I'm fine eating ramen.
[37:29.350 --> 37:30.170]  That's cool.
[37:30.470 --> 37:32.710]  There are other people who don't want to do that.
[37:33.170 --> 37:38.430]  Who see other ways of having a fulfilling life.
[37:39.310 --> 37:42.850]  So it absolutely depends on the individual and the group.
[37:44.270 --> 37:52.630]  I think the way I see it is, it's a difference between you looking at one homeless guy walking down the street and going, I'm going to help this guy out.
[37:52.690 --> 37:53.370]  His name's Ted.
[37:53.610 --> 37:54.710]  He wants to get a hamburger.
[37:54.870 --> 37:56.030]  I'm going to sit down and buy dinner for him.
[37:56.350 --> 37:59.810]  And being the guy who says, I'm going to help all the homeless in the city.
[37:59.930 --> 38:01.410]  Which means I can't help Ted.
[38:02.150 --> 38:04.170]  Because Ted's no longer a person.
[38:04.170 --> 38:04.830]  He's a number.
[38:05.510 --> 38:11.890]  I think when something becomes a business or becomes a $10 million grant project, it stops being very personal.
[38:12.070 --> 38:14.130]  It becomes, I have to go by the numbers.
[38:14.290 --> 38:16.150]  I have to reach the greatest level of efficiency.
[38:16.150 --> 38:18.750]  I have to start doing this in an analytical fashion.
[38:18.990 --> 38:26.690]  I have to suspend the absolute morality and make it about the ends justify the means to a certain extent.
[38:26.690 --> 38:32.590]  And I think that there is a definite switch in most people to what extent they choose to go in either direction.
[38:32.590 --> 38:35.970]  I think that's probably what I would see as the difference.
[38:36.970 --> 38:42.490]  Yeah, actually, that pretty much is exactly public libraries is that huge problem, right?
[38:42.650 --> 38:44.190]  Of, you know, you have a...
[38:44.190 --> 38:46.450]  Your library might exist in a community.
[38:46.530 --> 38:49.970]  But you might be one library in, you know, a system of 40.
[38:50.390 --> 38:52.190]  Where now you have to answer to...
[38:52.190 --> 38:53.430]  The systems are different in the U.S.
[38:53.430 --> 38:54.250]  I know they all vary.
[38:54.470 --> 38:57.370]  But you may have to answer to your municipality and board about what you do.
[38:57.830 --> 39:02.610]  So it no longer becomes, you know, you'll go to a library and the people in that library will know every single person that comes in.
[39:02.610 --> 39:08.210]  But at the end of the day, if there's, you know, a sudden they come in for a program or whatever and that needs to be cut, it's gone.
[39:09.070 --> 39:13.670]  You know, it doesn't really matter what, you know, how passionate librarians are about it or how important it is.
[39:13.830 --> 39:15.330]  So, yeah, it does have a huge impact.
[39:16.090 --> 39:20.770]  So that ties into me why it's important that your spaces be community-based.
[39:21.010 --> 39:24.170]  Because then it's the members who decide how it goes.
[39:24.810 --> 39:29.030]  If a library were supported by the individuals who are a part of it, then they have much more say.
[39:29.150 --> 39:30.410]  Which is good and bad, right?
[39:30.410 --> 39:34.530]  Sometimes you have a community with really awful viewpoints.
[39:34.530 --> 39:48.650]  Like we were just talking about in the hackerspace panel that nationalists that didn't want to go to the third hackerspace in the city because they were right next to the LGBT community and the center of culture.
[39:49.590 --> 39:51.090]  Because they didn't want to be near those people.
[39:51.230 --> 39:52.950]  Like, we don't want those people in our community.
[39:52.950 --> 39:55.690]  We don't want them to have a space, at least I don't.
[39:55.690 --> 39:57.090]  I don't think they deserve one.
[39:59.670 --> 40:00.150]  But...
[40:00.610 --> 40:04.130]  So that balance of having someone...
[40:05.370 --> 40:05.850]  Yes.
[40:05.850 --> 40:07.410]  I think you all get what I'm saying.
[40:07.670 --> 40:07.790]  Okay.
[40:08.230 --> 40:09.250]  It's quite interesting.
[40:09.410 --> 40:12.010]  The only reason that libraries function the way they do is because they...
[40:12.630 --> 40:19.530]  In general, all librarians agree to a set of ethics that are laid down by ALA, Ontario Library Association, stuff like that.
[40:19.530 --> 40:20.430]  They're not binding.
[40:20.770 --> 40:22.450]  It's completely voluntary that you, you know.
[40:22.810 --> 40:23.910]  And so all library...
[40:23.910 --> 40:28.150]  Now, you know, again, there's laws, you know, that libraries have to be completely neutral.
[40:28.290 --> 40:30.190]  There are like legal aspects, especially in Canada, to that.
[40:31.290 --> 40:34.630]  But the thing is that doesn't map onto hackerspaces at all.
[40:35.150 --> 40:39.450]  So, you know, I've had terrible experiences in hackerspaces and amazingly wonderful ones.
[40:40.690 --> 40:49.250]  So even though it might be, yes, it is a community, because there's no overarching ethics in the space itself that is like written down and we all agree.
[40:49.570 --> 40:51.110]  Like things about sex, race, and gender.
[40:51.430 --> 40:53.510]  You know, if you make sexist jokes...
[40:53.510 --> 40:56.650]  You know, if you make jokes about sexual assault, you will be kicked out of the space.
[40:56.750 --> 40:58.990]  I was just speaking to somebody about this incident that happened to them, actually.
[41:00.050 --> 41:01.770]  So again, I think that would be certainly...
[41:01.770 --> 41:09.450]  If hackerspaces were looking for a model to look to libraries to how to actually handle issues around neutrality, I think it's a really good one to look at.
[41:09.570 --> 41:10.590]  We've been doing it for so long.
[41:11.090 --> 41:16.650]  I think that was an excellent point, that the money is just going to be distributed and everyone's going to become numbers.
[41:17.350 --> 41:26.870]  And I think the responsibility of the programs at the hackerspace should be to bring it back down to a personal level and treat these projects individually.
[41:28.310 --> 41:33.950]  And I also personally don't want to see these being tainted in the DARPA direction.
[41:33.950 --> 41:39.230]  I want them to be moving towards innovation and actually not defense.
[41:39.690 --> 41:42.450]  And that's just my personal opinion.
[41:43.090 --> 41:47.130]  Yeah, so we've got like 10 minutes left.
[41:47.130 --> 41:53.490]  So I was thinking it would be cool for people in the audience, if you have questions, to ask and line up.
[41:55.110 --> 41:57.010]  Maybe a couple questions...
[41:57.010 --> 41:58.310]  Most questions, I hope.
[41:58.570 --> 42:00.610]  ...might be curious to have answered.
[42:00.610 --> 42:01.770]  Be nice to each other.
[42:02.950 --> 42:04.190]  Don't hurt anybody out there.
[42:04.790 --> 42:08.850]  Also be succinct in your questions or comments and we will try to do the same.
[42:10.910 --> 42:12.790]  So, go for it.
[42:13.950 --> 42:14.890]  Thanks, great panel.
[42:15.350 --> 42:16.110]  Very insightful.
[42:17.910 --> 42:21.910]  So, the problems of receiving funding ethically are not new.
[42:22.250 --> 42:30.850]  So, there's sort of organizations, 501c3s, that decide that they're only going to receive money in amounts that don't make them beholden to the organization giving them money.
[42:31.890 --> 42:37.490]  So, I was sort of wondering if you could possibly speak to something like that when receiving funding from something like DARPA, right?
[42:37.490 --> 42:39.610]  Because, I mean, anyone wanna...
[42:41.210 --> 42:49.450]  I think we actually do have to have a non-profit set up to collect the money for the DARPA hackerspace-based program.
[42:50.550 --> 42:55.750]  I would say I would like to see more of the spaces discussing things like that and actually providing some analytical feedback.
[42:56.030 --> 42:58.590]  I'd like to see like a real research paper written on that.
[42:58.770 --> 42:59.650]  Show me the numbers.
[42:59.950 --> 43:00.970]  I've never seen any.
[43:01.970 --> 43:12.770]  I would like to see that every project that receives money include not just padding but also an endpoint so that it's not based on continuation of funding.
[43:13.470 --> 43:17.670]  So that they don't have to keep going back to see the end of it.
[43:17.790 --> 43:19.690]  But it's done at the end.
[43:22.470 --> 43:22.950]  Thanks.
[43:26.030 --> 43:27.930]  I've been thinking about this issue for a little while.
[43:28.070 --> 43:29.970]  I'm not gonna be that succinct, sorry.
[43:29.970 --> 43:39.310]  I work for a company that contracts to the USGS mostly earthquake monitoring software.
[43:39.490 --> 43:41.150]  We were doing some work.
[43:41.650 --> 43:45.830]  And there was gonna be some work for geothermal monitoring.
[43:47.150 --> 43:50.210]  And it was gonna be at China Lake.
[43:50.390 --> 43:51.930]  And it was gonna be at the Navy.
[43:52.290 --> 43:53.990]  And I wouldn't do it.
[43:54.470 --> 43:56.730]  I said I didn't want to do that work.
[43:56.730 --> 44:00.730]  And my left liberal colleagues got really angry at me.
[44:00.890 --> 44:02.670]  They were like, look, you have to see.
[44:02.850 --> 44:03.430]  It's geothermal.
[44:03.430 --> 44:04.070]  It's good.
[44:04.210 --> 44:07.650]  It's the only way this technology is gonna get out there.
[44:07.810 --> 44:08.450]  It's gonna...
[44:08.450 --> 44:12.630]  If we don't advance it here, the military has the money to make this happen.
[44:13.610 --> 44:15.990]  And, you know, it's not gonna happen otherwise.
[44:16.130 --> 44:19.410]  Here's your chance to make something really good happen.
[44:19.550 --> 44:21.130]  Who cares who's paying the bills?
[44:21.150 --> 44:22.670]  This is a good thing.
[44:22.670 --> 44:29.590]  And I guess I come from the point of view where, you know, you look at the website for what DARPA stands for.
[44:30.030 --> 44:34.570]  It specifically is for defense and killing people.
[44:34.590 --> 44:36.190]  And I don't want to do that.
[44:36.190 --> 44:37.730]  But how much will I do?
[44:37.890 --> 44:41.950]  I'll be a little piece of that maybe or not.
[44:43.130 --> 44:45.230]  You know, will I kill people?
[44:45.330 --> 44:45.470]  No.
[44:45.610 --> 44:47.970]  Will I make software that might kill people?
[44:48.290 --> 44:49.470]  Well, no.
[44:49.470 --> 44:53.050]  Or will I just help this, you know, it's a geothermal plant.
[44:53.050 --> 44:54.650]  It's just energy, you know.
[44:54.850 --> 44:58.030]  And we vote with our taxes for the military.
[44:59.910 --> 45:03.950]  And we have more control maybe over the military than we do over corporations.
[45:03.990 --> 45:08.170]  Because we've, you know, the government says something about what the military does.
[45:09.690 --> 45:12.050]  So, I guess, I don't know.
[45:14.170 --> 45:19.330]  All of that is just running around in my head and I'm always...
[45:19.330 --> 45:21.410]  Just trying to figure out where you can go with it.
[45:21.550 --> 45:23.930]  Yeah, the point I think you're making is one I thought of too.
[45:24.050 --> 45:25.150]  It's like, where do you draw the line?
[45:25.430 --> 45:30.910]  All of us in this room probably pay some taxes or have at some point in our lives.
[45:31.190 --> 45:35.590]  That means we're in some ways supporting things that we don't agree with.
[45:36.530 --> 45:40.290]  Will you go out and build nuclear weapons that are targeted to civilians?
[45:40.530 --> 45:42.250]  Probably no one in this room will do that.
[45:42.250 --> 45:46.230]  Will you work on a program that, well, works on some...
[45:46.230 --> 45:48.830]  Create something that might be used by the military?
[45:49.450 --> 45:52.370]  You know, there's all these gradations like you were saying.
[45:52.650 --> 45:53.810]  So, where do you draw the line?
[45:54.030 --> 45:56.630]  And I don't know if people want to address that.
[45:57.090 --> 45:59.030]  I would like to say this.
[46:00.070 --> 46:02.650]  Technology is inherently a...
[46:02.650 --> 46:04.830]  It's something that increases our capabilities.
[46:04.830 --> 46:10.970]  And what we individually are capable of is greatness or great evil.
[46:11.370 --> 46:12.830]  It's like Spider-Man, you know?
[46:12.970 --> 46:14.570]  With great power comes great responsibility.
[46:15.190 --> 46:17.790]  But it's not just for me, it's also for all of you.
[46:17.910 --> 46:20.970]  If I open source something, now I have to trust every single person in this room.
[46:21.150 --> 46:22.990]  And obviously, we're not all nice people.
[46:23.110 --> 46:27.830]  There's a guy outside who was running around, you know, I'm showing my cock to people five minutes ago.
[46:29.250 --> 46:35.570]  The reality is, you have to have a fundamental faith in the decency of mankind to be in engineering.
[46:35.830 --> 46:41.850]  You have to be able to say that I believe that my technology is not going to be, by and large, used to do horrible things.
[46:42.210 --> 46:46.830]  Otherwise, you're just going to end up like the Unabomber living in a shack sending bombs to people who work in computer science.
[46:46.830 --> 46:51.830]  Because the reality is, technology is going to keep advancing and it's going to keep getting more and more dangerous.
[46:51.990 --> 46:53.570]  And you have to believe in us.
[46:53.690 --> 46:56.650]  Otherwise, you may as well just hide your head in a hole.
[46:58.230 --> 47:04.170]  Technology, just like any other tool, will only extrapolate human ability and intent.
[47:04.830 --> 47:08.050]  We can build things that get out of the way of people being good.
[47:08.630 --> 47:10.790]  Good being a relative term and subject to change.
[47:12.330 --> 47:16.630]  And we can also build things that make it difficult to be awful.
[47:17.910 --> 47:19.470]  But it's going to change.
[47:19.630 --> 47:23.690]  And as my dear friend Kevin says, any tool is a weapon if you hold it right.
[47:24.190 --> 47:25.150]  Including language.
[47:26.590 --> 47:27.810]  It's all gray area.
[47:28.490 --> 47:33.790]  I actually have a... yeah, there's actually an Audrey Law quote as well that, you know, the master's tools will never dismantle the master's house.
[47:35.390 --> 47:44.130]  And I think there's kind of a danger sometimes, especially with the DARPA make, that it is, you know, it could be perceived as this is just the master's tools trying to dismantle the master's house.
[47:44.310 --> 47:46.810]  This is very much... could be perceived as business as usual.
[47:47.970 --> 47:50.710]  So I think that's just another... just another way of looking at it again.
[47:52.290 --> 47:55.370]  There are lots of sources of money and all of them are corruptors.
[47:56.190 --> 47:57.390]  It could be DARPA.
[47:57.550 --> 47:58.550]  It could be DHS.
[47:59.330 --> 48:00.550]  It could be NSF.
[48:01.030 --> 48:02.710]  Any which way you'll end up...
[48:02.710 --> 48:05.770]  It could be some rich person on your board of a non-profit.
[48:06.210 --> 48:12.570]  No matter what happens, you'll find yourself in a position of conflict where you might be beholden to those people who pay your money.
[48:12.570 --> 48:21.070]  And I agree with the first speaker who suggests that the extent to which you find yourself beholden is the key question and whether to accept money or not.
[48:22.350 --> 48:28.290]  I think perhaps if you agree with the funder fundamentally or not as well.
[48:29.410 --> 48:30.030]  But sorry...
[48:30.030 --> 48:33.930]  I think sources of funding can also be enablers.
[48:35.090 --> 48:36.790]  Like, you know, crowdfunding.
[48:38.770 --> 48:39.290]  So...
[48:39.290 --> 48:40.310]  Jerry.
[48:40.310 --> 48:43.910]  So Jerry is a founder of Maui Makerspace.
[48:44.270 --> 48:48.150]  And what, you created the Hackerspace space program?
[48:48.370 --> 48:50.530]  No, I got my name put on the...
[48:50.530 --> 48:53.770]  as the lead of the Hackerspace space program because I had a DARPA background.
[48:54.210 --> 48:58.870]  Most of the people who put in the program, the proposal, were not U.S.
[48:58.970 --> 48:59.170]  people.
[48:59.430 --> 49:00.690]  There were only three U.S.
[49:00.750 --> 49:01.430]  citizens in it.
[49:01.510 --> 49:03.610]  It is intended to be an international program.
[49:04.650 --> 49:15.890]  But aside from HSP, I wanted to mention that there is a NSF proposal program that's been announced to study project-based learning.
[49:16.310 --> 49:20.610]  A multi-year thing for several different tracks with several millions of dollars involved.
[49:21.490 --> 49:26.890]  People who don't want to take DARPA money but are willing to take NSF money should go chase that and make it happen.
[49:27.850 --> 49:30.530]  And it's written for makerspaces, hackerspaces.
[49:30.730 --> 49:35.650]  So we need to get some people involved in doing that from this community and not just the Academians.
[49:35.970 --> 49:38.090]  See this man, if you have any ideas.
[49:38.110 --> 49:39.750]  If you want to find out about that one, tell me about that one.
[49:39.850 --> 49:40.430]  I'll tell you about that.
[49:40.510 --> 49:41.710]  I'll also talk to you about HSP.
[49:42.490 --> 49:57.270]  But one of the things I want to mention about both HSP and the MAKE effort is you had mentioned the military suspension of ethics and morality and passing it off to the higher-ups and politicians and so forth.
[49:58.530 --> 50:02.010]  It's the oversight that makes the direction that happens.
[50:02.230 --> 50:04.170]  The people at MAKE are very ethical.
[50:04.390 --> 50:09.630]  They have their very strong beliefs in bringing up people and making all this, the education.
[50:10.530 --> 50:19.590]  It's the people here that need to be involved in those programs and in our program to keep it ethical, to keep it moving in the direction you want to say.
[50:19.750 --> 50:25.810]  So our mission of the HSP is to enhance humanity's survivability.
[50:26.050 --> 50:27.490]  There's nothing in it about military.
[50:27.550 --> 50:30.390]  It has to do with humanity and surviving everything.
[50:30.590 --> 50:32.070]  Keep us moving in that direction.
[50:32.250 --> 50:32.910]  Get involved.
[50:33.050 --> 50:40.490]  Get involved in the local makerspace and keep them moving along and call out the recruiters when they show up because that's illegal for them to be there.
[50:40.710 --> 50:42.710]  It's against their contract to be there.
[50:42.930 --> 50:43.430]  Thank you.
[50:43.570 --> 50:47.550]  I would like to say Thomas Aquinas once famously said, silence is consent.
[50:48.330 --> 50:49.950]  And that kind of feeds on.
[50:50.050 --> 50:50.890]  It's also go further.
[50:51.090 --> 50:56.430]  You know, communication, open lines of communication, is the only way we keep ourselves from being ignorant towards each other.
[50:58.870 --> 51:10.750]  One of the reasons I think we're even having this debate is because all of the other organizations that used to be able to get grants from and support from have been stripped of everything.
[51:11.850 --> 51:13.550]  And that's a cultural issue.
[51:13.710 --> 51:19.290]  That's a cultural issue of people not being willing to pay taxes or not seeing that as a way of making that happen.
[51:20.930 --> 51:24.250]  And we've been silent that entire time.
[51:24.830 --> 51:32.710]  At the last panel, there was someone talking about how hackerspaces are intrinsically political and how we don't see them that way in America.
[51:32.950 --> 51:36.710]  And I think that's because we haven't been paying attention.
[51:36.850 --> 51:38.450]  We absolutely need to.
[51:43.520 --> 51:51.360]  It seems to me that as long as you're not going after the money, you could actually use this way, use getting funding as a method of subverting things.
[51:51.560 --> 51:56.940]  Because you already want to build these classrooms and spread this education.
[51:57.260 --> 52:03.000]  And if DARPA is funding it, that means they now can't put those funds towards making bullets that explode in midair, so they do more damage.
[52:03.340 --> 52:07.000]  And if someone wants to send recruiters to that, well, they probably already have those recruiters.
[52:07.000 --> 52:08.740]  And now they can't send them somewhere else.
[52:08.940 --> 52:19.780]  And now they have to share a space with someone who's going to be trying to instill more ethics and someone who's going to try and mitigate that, which decreases their effectiveness.
[52:20.820 --> 52:24.160]  So could that be more difficult?
[52:24.540 --> 52:26.060]  Everyone here has thought of this.
[52:26.220 --> 52:30.720]  And it's unfortunately not as easy as all that, but I won't say my opinions.
[52:31.080 --> 52:36.440]  I would say I'd love to see a soldier building a house rather than blowing it up any given day of the week.
[52:36.440 --> 52:38.100]  And I think that's true of most people.
[52:39.700 --> 52:40.220]  Yeah.
[52:40.400 --> 52:54.840]  So, yes, I totally agree with you, but I also agree with the concerns that Mitch has expressed in that then those funds are tainted and then the group giving those funds is seen as legitimized.
[52:56.880 --> 53:03.000]  And also, they have a budget this year of $3.2 billion, and it can be increased in a second.
[53:03.220 --> 53:06.040]  I would like to point out that the TSA budget's about 20...
[53:06.040 --> 53:07.520]  Well, it's actually about 40 billion.
[53:07.780 --> 53:09.020]  NASA budget's about 20.
[53:10.080 --> 53:13.020]  And I think that the Audre Lorde quote is a good one to remember.
[53:13.140 --> 53:15.140]  The master's tools will never dismantle a master's house.
[53:16.700 --> 53:27.040]  I think you always want to be very, very careful that precisely put some serious thought into exactly what the end goals are and what this can lead to, no matter what benefit you might see at the time.
[53:29.960 --> 53:32.020]  I think that's an excellent point, and that's what we're going to do.
[53:34.080 --> 53:35.460]  We have time for more questions.
[53:35.700 --> 53:36.100]  Just one more.
[53:37.440 --> 53:38.060]  One more.
[53:38.200 --> 53:39.620]  Okay, so this is the last question.
[53:40.720 --> 53:50.060]  So, on education, you know, I totally agree that classrooms need more soldering irons and CNC machines and, you know, et cetera.
[53:51.500 --> 54:01.220]  And what I'm kind of worried about is that a lot of the kids today are going to get, you know, these great, you know, engineering problem-solving skills, but not critical thinking skills.
[54:03.440 --> 54:06.820]  And any response to that or ideas of how that applies?
[54:07.340 --> 54:09.060]  I can totally take this one.
[54:09.260 --> 54:09.840]  Oh, man.
[54:10.160 --> 54:10.320]  Okay.
[54:10.860 --> 54:16.680]  So, the last few years I've been a part of something called School Factory and Space Federation.
[54:16.920 --> 54:19.100]  We care about hackerspaces becoming the schools of the future.
[54:19.340 --> 54:21.720]  You might be able to tell from some of the things that I've said earlier.
[54:23.700 --> 54:28.260]  Even just putting shop classes back in schools is not going to solve the problem.
[54:28.260 --> 54:34.140]  Because you used a drill press does not mean you suddenly have the ability to even build a chair.
[54:35.960 --> 54:46.700]  So, for me, it's awesome because suddenly people have access to tools and equipment and hopefully say, oh, wow, and this other person came in from...
[54:46.700 --> 54:50.300]  Apparently, they do this outside of school and I kind of don't like being in school.
[54:50.320 --> 54:51.700]  So, I'll go hang out there instead.
[54:52.700 --> 54:56.040]  I care about corrupting them and pulling them out of that system.
[54:56.040 --> 54:59.480]  Because the education system is just as broken as our military system.
[55:01.420 --> 55:04.300]  Perhaps more dangerously so, actually.
[55:07.300 --> 55:07.660]  Yes.
[55:07.900 --> 55:08.960]  Does that answer your question?
[55:09.560 --> 55:11.860]  Yeah, I'm just happy to hear whatever thoughts are out there.
[55:13.660 --> 55:14.020]  Okay.
[55:14.020 --> 55:14.100]  Okay.
[55:14.460 --> 55:17.480]  For the most part, I'd like to just say I think that's absolutely true.
[55:17.520 --> 55:22.060]  More kids need to be brought up in a stronger STEM environment.
[55:22.220 --> 55:25.660]  But I think that the real problem there is you have to reach out to the parents as well.
[55:25.740 --> 55:28.680]  And I think hackerspaces and communities are the ways to do that.
[55:28.680 --> 55:32.080]  So, I think DARPA was right in getting hackerspaces involved.
[55:32.940 --> 55:34.540]  It's a person-to-person thing.
[55:36.380 --> 55:37.000]  Go ahead.
[55:37.460 --> 55:41.500]  Yeah, I think we should definitely instill critical thinking in the educational programs.
[55:43.060 --> 55:43.580]  Yes.
[55:43.820 --> 55:45.520]  Please, please come and invade the library.
[55:46.220 --> 55:48.120]  If you have five minutes during the week.
[55:49.100 --> 55:50.180]  We have space.
[55:50.420 --> 55:51.900]  We sometimes have money, allegedly.
[55:53.020 --> 55:55.360]  And, you know, we are basically all about critical thinking.
[55:55.380 --> 56:00.660]  And really, if you want a truly neutral space to do hacker stuff, the library is pretty much it.
[56:00.800 --> 56:02.020]  If you want to...
[56:02.380 --> 56:04.500]  Did you hear about what they did in Texas?
[56:04.900 --> 56:13.020]  Like, you can't even bring up critical thinking in any class because it might undermine the beliefs that the parents are trying to instill in their children.
[56:14.160 --> 56:15.200]  It's awful.
[56:15.320 --> 56:15.420]  Let's fix it.
[56:15.420 --> 56:19.920]  The problems with the education system are many and huge and perhaps insurmountable.
[56:20.600 --> 56:26.920]  And this is one of the great reasons why hackerspaces are flourishing in our country because it fills some of that horrible void.
[56:27.960 --> 56:43.320]  So, I hope this panel has been informative for people in seeing that these issues really are important to think through because this affects the future of us individually and collectively as a community and the whole hackerspace movement.
[56:44.580 --> 56:46.720]  And there's no rights and wrongs.
[56:46.820 --> 56:56.660]  So, please keep talking about this and let's see where we are in a few years as a result of the thinking and talking and discussion in our community in the future.
[56:56.660 --> 56:58.120]  And I'll... thank
[57:08.080 --> 57:08.360]  you very much for an honor.
[57:08.440 --> 57:12.960]  Thank you very much, Mr.