[00:01.920 --> 00:05.460]  My name is Jack Gangi, and this talk is about third spaces in the hacker community.
[00:06.060 --> 00:10.920]  I plan to cover what they are, why they're vanishing, why we need them, and how we can help bring them back.
[00:11.720 --> 00:19.360]  I understand there are plenty of places that count as third spaces, but I'm going to try to narrow it down to the hacker community because, well, you know, that's why we're here.
[00:22.060 --> 00:25.160]  These days, it really feels harder to truly connect.
[00:25.480 --> 00:26.500]  We're online all the time.
[00:26.700 --> 00:27.780]  We're still feeling isolated.
[00:28.440 --> 00:31.460]  Places we used to hang out are disappearing, or they're changing fast.
[00:31.760 --> 00:42.240]  According to a 2023 report from the Project for Public Spaces, the number of active third spaces in the United States has declined by approximately 15% over the past few years.
[00:42.640 --> 00:44.840]  And that number is only getting lower.
[00:45.520 --> 00:55.960]  This will have an effect on our physical... this has had an effect on our physical and mental wellbeing, as well as our ability to act as a cohesive community and handle anything that might be coming our way.
[00:55.960 --> 00:59.000]  And things are most definitely coming our way.
[01:00.320 --> 01:04.740]  This country, it's entered a phase where sticking together, it's more important than ever.
[01:04.900 --> 01:08.400]  If we want to fight this storm, we must first learn the weather of this storm.
[01:08.900 --> 01:12.460]  We need to put on our own oxygen masks before we can help others.
[01:13.640 --> 01:19.340]  I've stopped using phrases like entering a dangerous time or the upcoming storm because, I mean, we're here.
[01:19.340 --> 01:21.020]  The worst possible timeline.
[01:23.380 --> 01:25.500]  From here, things are going to go from bad to worse.
[01:25.820 --> 01:32.340]  I hope by the end of this talk, you'll walk away with some of the fundamentals of community that might have slipped away from us all in the past decade.
[01:33.040 --> 01:36.080]  And now that I've put everybody in a happy mood, let's begin.
[01:37.420 --> 01:41.940]  I guess the first thing we should do is define what a third space is.
[01:42.520 --> 01:48.340]  Third space is a social space that's not your home, which would be your first place, your work, your second place.
[01:48.680 --> 01:55.240]  It's a place where people can gather and connect, usually informal, welcoming, and encourages conversation and community.
[01:57.200 --> 02:03.520]  Examples, cafes, parks, libraries, local bars, your favorite local game store, your favorite comic book store.
[02:04.380 --> 02:12.760]  The term was first coined by Ray Oldenburg in his book, The Great Good Place, published in 1989, way before I was born.
[02:13.060 --> 02:17.660]  In the book, he explains how the concept of the third space gained traction after the suburban boom.
[02:18.340 --> 02:31.220]  Well, following World War II, the government had policies like the GI Bill, along with the rise of automobile culture, that made suburban living a lot more, you know, a lot more accessible to middle class families.
[02:31.840 --> 02:35.980]  People generally used to live closer to where they worked, generally.
[02:36.720 --> 02:41.000]  The dense area of the city encouraged spontaneous encounters and a sense of community.
[02:41.500 --> 02:44.480]  People crossed paths on sidewalks, markets, bus stops.
[02:44.860 --> 02:46.720]  This didn't hold true for the suburbs.
[02:47.440 --> 02:49.080]  Cities are designed for people.
[02:49.360 --> 02:51.000]  Suburbs are designed for cars.
[02:53.240 --> 02:55.840]  Coffee houses, local bars, few and far between.
[02:56.960 --> 02:59.880]  Then in their place, a new type of third space emerged.
[03:00.500 --> 03:03.400]  Shopping malls, chain restaurants, bowling alleys.
[03:03.520 --> 03:07.880]  They became the hubs where people could meet informally outside home and or work.
[03:08.380 --> 03:13.380]  But these spaces kind of lacked the substance and the shared purpose of older gathering spaces.
[03:13.620 --> 03:14.920]  Some people needed more.
[03:15.140 --> 03:21.300]  This paved the way for things like, you know, poetry readings, jazz clubs, that sort of like counterculture.
[03:21.300 --> 03:25.440]  And it sort of paved the way for hackerspaces and meetups of today.
[03:25.720 --> 03:26.420]  It's a stretch.
[03:26.440 --> 03:27.760]  But if you squint, you can get there.
[03:28.520 --> 03:36.480]  As a side note, a good rule of thumb is that more affluent the neighborhood, the more its streets and shopping centers are designed to discourage walking.
[03:37.620 --> 03:42.100]  You'll see huge parking lots, no sidewalks or traffic lights and uncrossable intersections.
[03:42.780 --> 03:46.800]  This is to get a point across that driving and not walking is expected.
[03:47.500 --> 03:49.420]  Well, pretty much demanded, right?
[03:50.820 --> 03:52.460]  So what happened to the third space?
[03:52.680 --> 03:53.900]  You know, if it's so great, where is it?
[03:54.460 --> 04:01.180]  Well, shifts in how we live, work and spend our time along with broader changes in society kind of set the stage for the decline.
[04:01.180 --> 04:02.380]  So we'll go into that.
[04:03.780 --> 04:05.960]  Number one, it's just it's tough.
[04:07.020 --> 04:13.980]  General retail stores usually make about 5% net profit, which is already pretty, you know, pretty tight, pretty tight.
[04:14.340 --> 04:18.360]  But your specialty places like coffee shops, record stores, they do worse.
[04:18.460 --> 04:19.780]  They do around 2%.
[04:19.780 --> 04:30.540]  And with narrow profits like that, businesses have little room to absorb rising costs, economic shifts or changes in consumer behavior, making it hard to stick around long term.
[04:30.860 --> 04:32.820]  And consumer behavior does change.
[04:34.420 --> 04:36.760]  I owned a comic book store for about 12 years.
[04:36.980 --> 04:38.220]  We were in a college town.
[04:38.800 --> 04:48.060]  One of our largest problems is where kids, well, students would come in, they'd take a book off the shelf, and they'd sit down and, you know, just start reading.
[04:48.580 --> 04:50.300]  And I'd say, well, can I help you?
[04:50.440 --> 04:52.300]  And they say, oh, no, no, I'm just here to read the books.
[04:53.580 --> 05:04.040]  And that was, you know, it infuriated me until I understood that this is a generation that only grew up with Barnes & Noble as, you know, as any sort of bookstore model.
[05:04.260 --> 05:07.760]  Like they didn't understand that at one time bookstores didn't work like this.
[05:09.140 --> 05:13.120]  And Barnes & Noble, they've got about 600 stores across the country.
[05:13.340 --> 05:16.000]  Together, they get 30,000 to 50,000 visitors a day.
[05:16.680 --> 05:19.480]  Breaks down to about 50 to 80 visitors per store.
[05:19.760 --> 05:25.440]  So if 1% of those visitors, you know, buy something instead of browsing, that's enough to keep business going.
[05:25.820 --> 05:29.720]  For one small comic shop or coffee house, you know, not so much.
[05:31.320 --> 05:34.900]  Shopping online takes some of the responsibility here, especially niche items.
[05:35.100 --> 05:38.560]  You no longer have to go to your local game store for magic cards when there's a release.
[05:38.800 --> 05:42.300]  You can have the new set delivered the morning of, sometimes the day before.
[05:43.120 --> 05:44.800]  Mostly, you know, cheaper.
[05:46.320 --> 05:51.460]  And there's a bunch of people never know the fun of waiting in line for a midnight release of a video game.
[05:52.400 --> 05:55.500]  And I'm not rallying against online shopping here.
[05:55.680 --> 06:05.840]  You know, one of the biggest mistakes brick and mortar comic book stores made when, you know, when digital comics came, a lot of them band together for, quote unquote, the fight against digital.
[06:06.520 --> 06:11.400]  And, you know, they were going to just drive digital away like it was a Home Depot moving into their neighborhood.
[06:11.400 --> 06:13.900]  Like they were going to just like make it go away.
[06:14.860 --> 06:17.380]  You know, rather than learning how to coexist.
[06:17.780 --> 06:22.820]  And, you know, nostalgia is not a business model, but there's a happy medium.
[06:24.500 --> 06:31.580]  Anyway, things like this lead to third spaces closing down, which means fewer places people can go, leading to fewer chances of connection.
[06:31.580 --> 06:35.860]  And of course, once the doors close, gentrification moves in.
[06:37.260 --> 06:41.960]  Studies show commercial rents have increased about 25% over five years in most cities.
[06:42.240 --> 06:43.980]  This drives out small business.
[06:44.300 --> 06:50.260]  Then the storefronts sit empty for long periods of time, making neighborhoods feel less inviting, lowering property value.
[06:50.940 --> 06:55.020]  Eventually, chain stores move in, driving rents up a little bit further.
[06:55.320 --> 07:00.380]  And when Starbucks or another major chain opens nearby, the rent for your smaller businesses goes up.
[07:00.540 --> 07:04.520]  It's a, you know, a pizza goes up beyond what they can afford.
[07:04.640 --> 07:08.660]  It's a vicious cycle and a classic case of a rising tide sinking smaller boats.
[07:10.620 --> 07:26.760]  According to the National Community Reinvestment Coalition, and it's a thing, NCRC, a study of over 1,000 neighborhoods, gentrification between 2000 and 2013, displaced more than 135,000 longtime residents, mostly Black and Hispanic.
[07:27.200 --> 07:30.180]  Affected neighborhoods lost hundreds of residents each.
[07:30.520 --> 07:32.480]  New York lost over 15,000.
[07:32.600 --> 07:34.160]  Philadelphia, over 12,000.
[07:34.160 --> 07:40.060]  In San Francisco's Mission District, the Latino population dropped from 60 to 48%.
[07:40.740 --> 07:47.320]  Studies show that over half of residents feel their neighborhood lost cultural diversity and that its character changed significantly, obviously.
[07:47.800 --> 07:49.740]  And, well, sometimes deliberately.
[07:50.480 --> 07:52.560]  There's something called the blockbuster effect.
[07:52.900 --> 08:05.480]  Back in the 80s and 90s, when blockbuster video expanded across the U.S., they would move into, you know, they move into the area, then they would undercut all their rentals to drive the smaller mom-and-pop stores out.
[08:05.980 --> 08:10.580]  Once those stores gone, they would gradually creep up prices and double late fees.
[08:12.040 --> 08:21.040]  This is also standard practice for a lot of big businesses, Walmart, Home Depot, Starbucks, and Uber and Lyft, which I find that last one especially disturbing.
[08:23.680 --> 08:29.140]  And after gentrification takes hold, community venues get replaced by chain stores or big box retailers.
[08:29.860 --> 08:33.600]  These places offer convenience, predictability, but they don't...
[08:33.600 --> 08:36.760]  They lack the personal touch and character that local businesses bring.
[08:36.980 --> 08:39.260]  And that's why there's an Olive Garden in Times Square.
[08:39.820 --> 08:42.300]  People tend to flock to the familiar, right?
[08:42.600 --> 08:45.680]  Because they know they get the same exact experience every time.
[08:46.420 --> 08:48.980]  For most people, time and convenience usually win out.
[08:49.120 --> 08:53.260]  Why drive three blocks to the local coffee house when you can get your latte right inside the Target?
[08:54.040 --> 08:55.420]  From Starbucks, no less.
[08:55.840 --> 08:58.560]  And 5% off when you use your Target card.
[08:58.880 --> 09:01.580]  And now I'm shilling for Target for some reason.
[09:01.800 --> 09:04.320]  But, you know, yeah, you guys really got to get down there.
[09:05.720 --> 09:09.840]  Buying your coffee at the same chain store every day doesn't make you part of a community.
[09:09.840 --> 09:12.360]  It makes you a customer, no matter what they tell you.
[09:12.720 --> 09:13.320]  No matter what.
[09:13.320 --> 09:16.020]  Small Business Saturday, if anyone's familiar.
[09:16.800 --> 09:18.560]  A day to support businesses was created...
[09:18.860 --> 09:20.560]  Small business, small local businesses.
[09:21.000 --> 09:23.540]  It's created and sponsored by American Express.
[09:23.920 --> 09:24.860]  Major corporation.
[09:25.240 --> 09:31.480]  And if you run a small business, you know that American Express takes a larger merchant fee than other credit card companies.
[09:31.660 --> 09:36.220]  Whenever somebody pays with an Amex, it costs more than if they'd paid with Visa or MasterCard.
[09:36.960 --> 09:40.420]  So, you know, commercialism hijacks the soul of the third space.
[09:40.820 --> 09:41.960]  Gentrification evicts it.
[09:43.740 --> 09:44.420]  Let's see.
[09:44.600 --> 09:46.560]  And now we're moving into working from home.
[09:47.540 --> 09:55.720]  Working from home fundamentally changed the boundaries between our personal and professional lives, leaving little room for socializing and a constant sense of always being on.
[09:57.060 --> 10:02.120]  53% of home workers say that working from home negatively affects their ability to feel connected.
[10:03.160 --> 10:05.680]  I think that number might be a little more, but I don't know.
[10:06.260 --> 10:08.080]  Third spaces aren't just nice to have.
[10:08.240 --> 10:09.560]  They're vital for mental wellbeing.
[10:10.180 --> 10:15.000]  When working from home, the first and second spaces, they collapse into one, pushing out the third altogether.
[10:15.920 --> 10:21.260]  Less people means less foot traffic, meaning less participation, and your favorite local game store becomes a Panera.
[10:22.840 --> 10:28.080]  A major disruption in the work-from-home universe was the pandemic, if you've all ever heard of it.
[10:28.080 --> 10:34.400]  Before 2020, remote work was often seen as a perk, limited to a few industries or some highly flexible roles.
[10:35.040 --> 10:40.760]  Sudden onset of COVID forced millions of employees worldwide to shift overnight from their offices to their homes.
[10:40.960 --> 10:42.160]  Not everybody was built for it.
[10:42.820 --> 10:45.440]  Some found freedom in flexible schedules and no commute.
[10:45.580 --> 10:48.300]  Others struggled with isolation and blurred boundaries.
[10:49.540 --> 10:52.840]  To quote from The Tick, an object at rest cannot be stopped.
[10:53.340 --> 10:56.260]  Once you've been in your house, it's very easy to stay in your house.
[10:56.380 --> 10:57.220]  We all know this.
[10:57.820 --> 11:01.040]  In the year of our Lord, 2025, it's easier than ever.
[11:01.200 --> 11:06.600]  Anything and everything can be delivered right to your door without ever needing to speak to another human being.
[11:06.600 --> 11:08.780]  It's a double-edged sword, really.
[11:09.940 --> 11:12.420]  The pandemic didn't just accelerate remote work.
[11:12.580 --> 11:16.620]  It reshaped how we define the workplace, along with our sense of work-life balance.
[11:17.000 --> 11:22.080]  And we also had a generation of kids that essentially missed a year of school.
[11:22.360 --> 11:25.900]  And for some reason, everybody's acting like that's not going to bite us in the ass.
[11:27.160 --> 11:33.060]  They missed critical social interactions at school, not just academic, impacting their social skills and emotional development.
[11:33.680 --> 11:36.280]  Great example of this is the Minecraft movie.
[11:36.620 --> 11:40.960]  And if you don't know what I'm talking about, just search Chicken Jockey on YouTube.
[11:42.500 --> 11:45.120]  I mean, I'm all for fooling around and finding out.
[11:45.240 --> 11:47.620]  I've dedicated a huge portion of my life to that.
[11:47.720 --> 11:48.880]  But this was a little different.
[11:49.380 --> 11:52.080]  It's not that the kids didn't know how to act at the movies.
[11:52.240 --> 11:55.440]  The kids just didn't know how to act at the movies.
[11:55.680 --> 11:58.780]  Like, that social behavior hadn't been imprinted on them.
[11:58.960 --> 12:00.400]  It just hasn't been established.
[12:00.400 --> 12:05.040]  And this concludes the get off my lawn portion of the talk.
[12:08.400 --> 12:09.360]  Let's see.
[12:11.400 --> 12:13.500]  Which brings us to gig working.
[12:13.780 --> 12:17.640]  It's a labor model defined by flexibility, but also unpredictability.
[12:17.900 --> 12:26.340]  Gig workers often have fragmented regular hours and blurred the boundary between work and personal time even further than remote office jobs.
[12:27.500 --> 12:32.580]  This creates a kind of time poverty, a free hour here, a couple of free hours there.
[12:32.780 --> 12:38.240]  It makes it really impossible to establish, you know, any sort of constant social routine or even commit to community activity.
[12:39.840 --> 12:41.900]  And the toll of this lifestyle is heavy.
[12:42.340 --> 12:45.200]  Burnout, financial insecurity, feelings of instability.
[12:45.680 --> 12:55.460]  And, you know, unlike traditional employees who have a more routine workplace and colleagues, gig workers, they kind of lack access to that consistency in their environment that makes them feel grounded.
[12:55.720 --> 12:57.100]  There's just no water cooler.
[12:57.860 --> 13:01.740]  There's no physical or social hub behind work or beyond work and home.
[13:02.760 --> 13:08.560]  And, well, the Internet looks promising as a digital third space where we can all meet, share, and belong, right?
[13:08.740 --> 13:09.840]  That's what happened.
[13:10.140 --> 13:11.840]  Let's take a look at how that's working out.
[13:13.200 --> 13:18.260]  Now, corporate one platforms do not a community make.
[13:19.020 --> 13:20.460]  They hold all the cards.
[13:20.660 --> 13:25.240]  They can delete posts, suspend accounts, and just outright erase communities on a whim.
[13:25.820 --> 13:29.000]  Users have little or no recourse against these types of actions.
[13:29.260 --> 13:33.020]  There's no serious due process, you know, like we have in our court system.
[13:33.560 --> 13:36.300]  We've seen this a lot with forums and, of course, game servers.
[13:36.460 --> 13:42.380]  This is especially painful because you've actually got some sort of community foundation and then the rug is pulled out from under you.
[13:43.160 --> 13:45.260]  An example of this is, well, LiveJournal.
[13:45.400 --> 13:55.520]  Once a thriving hub for personal blogs, it was a tight-knit community and it became the unravel after being acquired by Sup Media, S-U-P, a Russian company.
[13:56.920 --> 14:03.960]  And in 2007, it changes the site policies, increased censorship, and concerns over privacy alienated a lot of the users.
[14:04.720 --> 14:11.720]  At the same time, newer platforms like Facebook and Tumblr offered flashier features, broader reach, and, you know, the grass is always greener.
[14:11.920 --> 14:17.440]  So, community splintered and users moved on, leaving behind a once vibrant personal corner of the Internet.
[14:18.220 --> 14:21.440]  And LiveJournal is still around, but it's basically a zombie app.
[14:23.160 --> 14:28.860]  And for those of you unaware, a zombie app is one that's still technically live, but effectively abandoned.
[14:29.020 --> 14:33.220]  It's a product that no longer brings an effort to justify updates, marketing, or support.
[14:33.740 --> 14:37.960]  They trim the fat down to the bone, leaving the app to run on autopilot with minimal maintenance.
[14:37.960 --> 14:42.400]  It's usually the after effect of a company being sold and stripped for parts.
[14:42.560 --> 14:47.740]  And I'm sure if you thumb through your phones, you can find a lot of apps that were once great that are now pretty much zombie apps.
[14:50.740 --> 14:52.200]  Bringing us to shadow banning.
[14:52.780 --> 14:55.100]  Shadow banning is about control and visibility.
[14:55.100 --> 14:57.920]  In the physical world, exclusion is, well, physical.
[14:58.220 --> 14:59.320]  It's a little murkier online.
[15:00.540 --> 15:10.360]  In 2020, Twitter, I can't bring myself to call it X, admitted to limiting visibility for over 140,000 accounts without notifying the user.
[15:10.560 --> 15:12.180]  This is called shadow banning.
[15:12.240 --> 15:13.640]  I'm sure we're all familiar with it.
[15:14.540 --> 15:21.440]  Apps shadow banned to manage traffic, increase ad revenue, or encourage certain behaviors, making it a great tool for subtle manipulation.
[15:21.440 --> 15:24.460]  Shadow banning is different from content moderation.
[15:26.180 --> 15:32.500]  The content isn't removed, but visibly restricted, creating this gray area that feels punitive, but is also invisible.
[15:33.120 --> 15:36.220]  Like having a passive-aggressive mother-in-law that works at Facebook.
[15:37.640 --> 15:38.880]  It's just...
[15:38.880 --> 15:51.300]  By quietly suppressing some users, algorithms often amplify already popular voices, skewing discussions and reducing minority perspectives, eliminating any danger of being exposed to new thoughts or new ideas.
[15:52.280 --> 15:52.980]  So...
[15:52.980 --> 16:04.580]  And over the time, the narrowing of these voices brings community fragmentation, isolating certain users or groups, making communities less diverse and more homogenous and ultimately easier to market to.
[16:05.920 --> 16:10.720]  Unclear rules and hidden penalties do not an online community or third space make.
[16:11.480 --> 16:14.060]  Dating apps are especially guilty of this.
[16:14.760 --> 16:15.420]  Priorities...
[16:15.420 --> 16:21.080]  Profiles can be quietly deprioritized or hidden entirely based on the algorithm saying so.
[16:21.840 --> 16:28.260]  Factors for this include activity patterns, user reports, or even arbitrary behavior the algorithm deems undesirable.
[16:28.260 --> 16:29.700]  And it's...
[16:29.700 --> 16:31.780]  Most often, it's not for breaking the rules.
[16:32.260 --> 16:36.480]  And being quietly filtered out, it leads to confusion, frustration, and self-doubt.
[16:36.620 --> 16:40.160]  Users may try to fix themselves when the problem is algorithmic.
[16:40.980 --> 16:43.920]  Which is going to be the new t-shirt I'm going to start selling.
[16:44.020 --> 16:45.360]  The problem is algorithmic.
[16:45.480 --> 16:46.400]  I think that's...
[16:46.400 --> 16:47.240]  There's something there.
[16:50.260 --> 16:51.220]  Then we move on.
[16:51.320 --> 16:56.580]  Digital communities and platforms driven by profit, prioritizing ad revenue and user data.
[16:56.580 --> 17:03.580]  In 2023, over 98% of Meta's revenue, about $131 billion, came from advertising.
[17:03.840 --> 17:08.000]  And like the well-worn saying goes, users aren't the customer, they're the product.
[17:08.660 --> 17:14.460]  User data is targeted for political messaging, behavioral prediction, and is often sold to third parties.
[17:14.720 --> 17:21.560]  What's called an online community is often a carefully engineered environment designed to serve corporate interests first.
[17:21.560 --> 17:27.640]  Features like infinite scroll, push notification, and scene indicators are there to keep users returning.
[17:27.840 --> 17:30.380]  And that because they want you to foster healthy connections.
[17:31.040 --> 17:38.940]  The content you see is filtered and ranked for maximum engagement, amplifying provocative, sensationalized, or emotionally charged material.
[17:38.940 --> 17:47.100]  The profit model rewards these content types with visibility, which can sideline authentic, focused, and, of course, thoughtful dialogue.
[17:47.880 --> 17:49.820]  Instagram, great example of this.
[17:49.980 --> 17:56.440]  Its algorithm promotes posts that attract likes and comments that keep users engaged longer.
[17:57.380 --> 18:05.200]  By encouraging content interaction, the platform maximizes time spent, enabling it to show more ads and gather detailed user data.
[18:05.200 --> 18:13.840]  This gives the appearance of a vibrant community, but it's really a profit driven ecosystem for brand promotion, influence and marketing and sponsored content.
[18:14.120 --> 18:29.140]  And because these platforms operate at such a massive scale, the smallest algorithm tweak can reshape the entire online culture overnight, quietly influencing what trends, what disappears and ultimately what conversations we even have all the time thinking it was our idea.
[18:29.840 --> 18:31.040]  This is scary stuff.
[18:32.500 --> 18:36.580]  And, of course, I'd be remiss if I didn't talk more about our friendly algorithm.
[18:37.440 --> 18:40.280]  Algorithms prioritize content that keeps people scrolling.
[18:40.280 --> 18:42.640]  It's not the most accurate or the healthiest content.
[18:43.160 --> 18:50.580]  A Facebook whistleblower revealed in 2021 that the platform knowingly amplified divisive content because it increases user time on the site.
[18:50.740 --> 18:54.080]  And that's why your racist uncle is always popping up in your feed.
[18:54.880 --> 19:02.740]  The untruthful inflammatory stuff tends to perform better because it triggers stronger reactions with the algorithm interprets as engaging.
[19:03.340 --> 19:08.160]  And like Twain said, a lie can travel halfway around the world before the truth is putting on its shoes.
[19:08.340 --> 19:10.320]  And that was before high speed Internet.
[19:11.140 --> 19:13.760]  And there's another old saying from the advertising world.
[19:13.940 --> 19:17.100]  They don't care if you love it or hate it as long as you remember it.
[19:17.100 --> 19:20.640]  The social platforms have taken this to a hellscape-like level.
[19:20.840 --> 19:22.000]  They show us awful content.
[19:22.240 --> 19:23.140]  We interact with it.
[19:23.260 --> 19:27.360]  The algorithms keep showing us content similar to the content we've already reacted to.
[19:27.800 --> 19:31.560]  And now we have an echo chamber reinforcing our societal biases.
[19:32.720 --> 19:36.540]  And this is how problem people get radicalized, by the way.
[19:36.900 --> 19:38.020]  This is what does it.
[19:39.100 --> 19:41.260]  It's a shared delusion where...
[19:53.190 --> 19:59.890]  And then plasmorphs like Facebook and Twitter take formative steps and these slow-blaster tasks are written a problem, but we all know they're exploiting it.
[20:00.150 --> 20:02.630]  It's the same psychology as tobacco companies.
[20:02.630 --> 20:05.390]  They're putting warnings on cigarette packs when they don't know.
[20:05.530 --> 20:06.850]  They know you're already if they fit.
[20:06.930 --> 20:08.830]  It doesn't matter what they say on the side of the box.
[20:08.990 --> 20:10.130]  It won't slow down since.
[20:23.400 --> 20:25.480]  It sucks so much I ran out the mic.
[20:27.640 --> 20:31.980]  We've replaced It Bleeds It Leads with If It Trolls It Scrolls.
[20:34.040 --> 20:40.940]  A true community can't be taken from you, can't be silenced, or sold because it isn't owned by a platform or governed by algorithms.
[20:40.940 --> 20:45.680]  It doesn't vanish because a company pivots, updates its terms, or goes bankrupt.
[20:46.360 --> 20:49.060]  And of course, a lot of things in life aren't future-proof.
[20:49.260 --> 20:51.720]  Why not let the third space go the way of Blockbuster Video?
[20:51.920 --> 20:53.460]  After all, things come and go.
[20:54.120 --> 20:56.000]  But the third space isn't just a place.
[20:56.080 --> 20:56.960]  It's a point of connection.
[20:57.220 --> 20:59.640]  When it's gone, nothing online can fill the gap.
[20:59.780 --> 21:01.360]  The gap it leaves isn't just social.
[21:01.520 --> 21:04.040]  It's emotional, cultural, and even physical.
[21:05.000 --> 21:08.520]  Without third spaces, our social circles shrink to the people we already know.
[21:08.780 --> 21:10.300]  Our world doesn't get any larger.
[21:10.300 --> 21:16.480]  Third spaces foster chance encounters with new people, new ideas, and something digital platforms seem to be filtering out lately.
[21:17.220 --> 21:22.380]  The Internet may keep us informed, but it rarely makes us feel belonging in the way a shared space can.
[21:22.600 --> 21:24.180]  Maybe at one time for no longer.
[21:24.700 --> 21:28.120]  I'm not saying the Internet doesn't make a great third space.
[21:28.300 --> 21:31.700]  I'm saying today's Internet doesn't make a great third space.
[21:32.120 --> 21:34.000]  And maybe one day we can get back to it.
[21:34.600 --> 21:38.860]  And of course, that's not saying there's a few, you know, a few oases in the digital noise.
[21:39.100 --> 21:40.420]  The one I found is Mastodon.
[21:40.800 --> 21:42.860]  There are no algorithms deciding what I see.
[21:42.980 --> 21:44.660]  No constant tug of war for my attention.
[21:46.120 --> 21:48.120]  No corporate incentive to keep me scrolling.
[21:48.580 --> 21:51.580]  Conversations feel slower, more intentional, less performative.
[21:51.580 --> 21:52.020]  It's great.
[21:52.300 --> 21:56.700]  If you haven't looked into Mastodon, I strongly suggest you check it out.
[21:57.440 --> 21:58.400]  I'm a townie.
[21:58.580 --> 22:01.580]  I belong to hackers.town and we are most definitely a community.
[22:02.560 --> 22:04.640]  Unfortunately, Mastodon is the exception of the rule.
[22:05.320 --> 22:09.840]  Most people flock to the more mainstream systems falling into the same cycle I just outlined.
[22:09.840 --> 22:16.280]  The effects of losing a third space ripple through our lives in ways we don't often notice until it's too late.
[22:18.860 --> 22:19.880]  This is a big one.
[22:21.420 --> 22:32.680]  The loneliness epidemic is affecting everyone so much that the Surgeon General declared it a public health emergency and the UK appointed a Minister of Loneliness.
[22:33.260 --> 22:36.940]  Loneliness is as harmful as smoking 15 cigarettes a day.
[22:36.940 --> 22:42.300]  It increases the risk of heart disease, stroke, dementia, depression, and premature death.
[22:42.800 --> 22:51.580]  According to the WHO, loneliness is linked to approximately 100 deaths every hour, totaling more than 871,000 deaths worldwide.
[22:52.440 --> 22:58.760]  It disrupts sleep, like hackers need any help with that, weakens the immune system, and affects motivation.
[22:58.880 --> 23:05.640]  I truly believe the hacker community is a lot more susceptible to this than any other community out there.
[23:06.100 --> 23:07.220]  I truly believe that.
[23:08.280 --> 23:10.800]  For a lot of us, hacking is kind of a two-part process.
[23:11.040 --> 23:15.780]  The first involves being by yourself, chipping away at a problem, or trying to figure out how something works.
[23:16.240 --> 23:19.900]  Once you've made some progress, you pop up and you show your work.
[23:20.160 --> 23:21.980]  Maybe get some collaboration or feedback.
[23:22.560 --> 23:26.380]  Without step two, step one is just an exercise in isolation.
[23:27.780 --> 23:32.820]  And when large groups like ours experience loneliness, it's social fabric frays.
[23:33.020 --> 23:37.040]  It affects trust and collaboration, weakens our resilience as a group.
[23:37.040 --> 23:40.000]  And this is a group that's always had resilience in spades.
[23:41.400 --> 23:43.080]  This is it, right here.
[23:43.340 --> 23:44.380]  This is the widow maker.
[23:44.620 --> 23:49.140]  If we don't take corrective action soon, this is going to be the final nail in our community's coffin.
[23:49.140 --> 23:57.220]  If you don't have this particular problem, that's wonderful, but it also means you have a responsibility to help pull others out of this abyss.
[23:57.720 --> 23:59.540]  And I think we all know what I'm talking about.
[24:00.780 --> 24:09.860]  One of the great things that's always separated the hacker community from other so-called communities I've been involved with is that we donate our wounded.
[24:11.000 --> 24:15.060]  We all need to be diligent about this, and if you're truly struggling, reach out.
[24:18.030 --> 24:21.190]  The more you isolate yourself, the easier it is to lose touch.
[24:21.810 --> 24:28.730]  A 2023 CDC study showed that social isolation increases the risk of disengagement and depression by up to 30%.
[24:29.390 --> 24:32.610]  This goes back to the object at rest cannot be stopped, quote.
[24:32.850 --> 24:37.750]  We need that connection and our lives to help us feel seen, valued, and useful.
[24:40.690 --> 24:43.830]  I understand isolating is easier, especially in today's worlds.
[24:44.190 --> 24:46.910]  A lot of demands on our time, and it's not a pretty place.
[24:47.090 --> 24:49.430]  But too much isolation, it affects our sense of purpose.
[24:50.450 --> 24:52.790]  Bottom line, don't be afraid to reconnect.
[24:53.630 --> 24:56.450]  Sometimes we all need to be reminded that we belong somewhere.
[24:56.690 --> 24:58.910]  Third spaces aren't just extra in our lives.
[24:59.610 --> 25:00.010]  Okay?
[25:00.350 --> 25:03.050]  Like all muscles, social muscles need to be exercised.
[25:03.250 --> 25:04.790]  Are they, you know, are they...
[25:05.290 --> 25:06.070]  Atrophy, thank you.
[25:06.230 --> 25:07.370]  How did you know I couldn't pronounce that word?
[25:08.210 --> 25:09.770]  Socialization keeps our minds sharp.
[25:10.190 --> 25:12.270]  Text that person you haven't talked to in a while.
[25:12.470 --> 25:15.210]  Show up at that 2600 meeting you've been MIA from.
[25:15.530 --> 25:19.070]  Most people will welcome your presence more than they'll care about your time away.
[25:19.350 --> 25:21.990]  And I know, the human brain isn't wired that way.
[25:21.990 --> 25:28.190]  You have these little vignettes that pop into your head where you walk in somewhere and everybody stands up, points, and yells.
[25:28.370 --> 25:30.110]  You have a lot of nerve showing your face here.
[25:30.170 --> 25:30.730]  Where have you been?
[25:30.730 --> 25:32.670]  That's probably not gonna happen.
[25:32.830 --> 25:34.050]  Probably not gonna happen.
[25:34.230 --> 25:34.470]  Probably not gonna happen.
[25:34.470 --> 25:35.230]  No guarantee.
[25:38.150 --> 25:40.110]  I had a young employee at my store.
[25:40.330 --> 25:43.310]  I don't think I've seen them face-to-face for about six years.
[25:45.250 --> 25:47.550]  Every so often they'll text me asking a question.
[25:47.970 --> 25:49.970]  Not with the leading up or, hey, how you been?
[25:50.050 --> 25:50.970]  We need to catch up.
[25:51.090 --> 25:51.990]  Or I have a question.
[25:52.470 --> 25:55.250]  They'll ask me the question like they just spoke to me earlier that day.
[25:55.770 --> 25:56.850]  I'll be doing something.
[25:57.190 --> 25:57.990]  My phone dings.
[25:58.230 --> 26:04.570]  And it'll be like, what was the name of that sandwich I really liked that time we ordered from that place on the corner that was across the street from the ice cream store?
[26:06.010 --> 26:08.270]  I'll just text back, Cuban sandwich.
[26:08.850 --> 26:10.570]  And they'll reply, oh right, thanks.
[26:10.790 --> 26:11.430]  And that's that.
[26:11.690 --> 26:12.830]  Talked to you in another six years.
[26:13.450 --> 26:14.550]  And you know, I...
[26:15.190 --> 26:16.930]  I just wish that...
[26:16.930 --> 26:18.290]  I wish I was wired like that.
[26:18.490 --> 26:20.190]  Maybe it's something we should all strive for.
[26:20.190 --> 26:20.850]  You know?
[26:21.070 --> 26:22.390]  I mean, I just...
[26:22.390 --> 26:23.050]  I wish.
[26:24.250 --> 26:27.630]  Another, you know, advantage with Third Space is spontaneous discovery.
[26:28.170 --> 26:32.390]  Meshing up with other people is a great way to pick up skills you didn't even know you were lacking.
[26:32.550 --> 26:34.150]  Especially in our community.
[26:34.570 --> 26:39.850]  That kind of informal cross-pollination is much harder to find in traditional classrooms.
[26:40.150 --> 26:46.750]  How many people here have picked up a completely peripheral skill they had absolutely no idea they wanted or needed just from being around hackers?
[26:47.350 --> 26:50.850]  The information dumping that goes on among hackers is astounding.
[26:51.230 --> 26:54.330]  You join a hackerspace because you want to learn to use your 3D printer.
[26:54.730 --> 26:59.510]  Then you walk away with knowledge on everything from ham radio to building go-karts to cartography.
[27:00.010 --> 27:00.570]  You know?
[27:00.630 --> 27:06.230]  Or you help make a potato gun that somebody carelessly fires at the train tracks and New Jersey Transit calls the police.
[27:06.390 --> 27:12.470]  And you have to hide under the table of your hackerspace with the lights on while the police slowly patrol the parking lot.
[27:12.470 --> 27:14.550]  But, you know, that's a tale as old as time.
[27:14.750 --> 27:19.210]  I hate to be so cliche, but, you know, that's where we are.
[27:22.490 --> 27:25.410]  Serendipitous discovery is not only about learning a new skill.
[27:25.590 --> 27:29.890]  Being around others also exposes you to perspectives and solutions you wouldn't encounter alone.
[27:30.350 --> 27:33.990]  You might learn a shortcut or method for getting something done you didn't know existed.
[27:33.990 --> 27:39.350]  Or maybe get help solving a problem by being led in a direction you would never go yourself.
[27:39.810 --> 27:46.350]  If you're a coder, picking up t-shirt design and helping with designing a zine results in better CSS and site layout.
[27:46.830 --> 27:50.570]  Helping someone build an arcade cabinet is going to improve your woodworking skills.
[27:51.070 --> 27:56.990]  You know, you also can't walk away without being able to name all the actors that played Doctor Who or knowing what a Bajoran is.
[27:57.810 --> 27:58.430]  You know?
[27:59.370 --> 28:06.290]  One of the greatest advantages of a third space in relation to the hacker community is a huge information resource.
[28:06.990 --> 28:07.470]  Okay?
[28:07.650 --> 28:09.190]  All the knowledge is there for the taking.
[28:10.570 --> 28:13.790]  Nobody in the hacker community is stingy with their knowledge.
[28:14.170 --> 28:17.970]  And yes, stingy sounds like a word you're not allowed to use, but I looked it up.
[28:18.110 --> 28:18.610]  It's fine.
[28:18.850 --> 28:19.310]  It's fine.
[28:20.510 --> 28:20.910]  All right.
[28:22.150 --> 28:22.630]  Mentorship.
[28:23.090 --> 28:24.210]  This is very important.
[28:25.190 --> 28:28.490]  Those of us that have mentors have a responsibility to be a mentor.
[28:28.930 --> 28:32.150]  If we want to see the next generation of hackers, we need to support and encourage them.
[28:32.450 --> 28:36.410]  If you don't like the direction things are taking, roll up your sleeves, help change it.
[28:36.810 --> 28:41.830]  A strong community depends on members actively instilling ethics and knowledge to the new generation.
[28:42.550 --> 28:46.530]  Without this mentorship and engagement, skills and culture can be lost.
[28:46.730 --> 28:49.070]  Communities thrive when knowledge is passed on.
[28:49.690 --> 28:50.570]  I had a mentor.
[28:50.990 --> 28:52.830]  His words echo in my head every day.
[28:56.810 --> 28:58.270]  If you don't have knowledge, you'll always be in danger.
[28:58.990 --> 29:01.510]  And yeah, he was a real ray of sunshine.
[29:01.510 --> 29:02.790]  I gotta tell you.
[29:03.430 --> 29:03.550]  Yeah.
[29:04.010 --> 29:05.190]  Sunshine and lollipops.
[29:05.890 --> 29:08.910]  You know, mentorship, it's not just about teaching skills.
[29:08.990 --> 29:13.410]  It's about imparting a mindset, a way of solving problems.
[29:13.410 --> 29:19.010]  Much like serendipitous discovery, these are the skills that can be brought into daily living, making for better people.
[29:19.430 --> 29:22.170]  And we really do need some better people out there.
[29:22.230 --> 29:24.530]  I don't know if you've been out there, but we need better people.
[29:25.130 --> 29:26.450]  And this goes both ways.
[29:26.650 --> 29:29.090]  We all have something to teach and we all have something to learn.
[29:29.590 --> 29:32.610]  Mentoring introduces you to new tools, new techniques.
[29:32.830 --> 29:34.090]  It challenges you to think differently.
[29:34.590 --> 29:42.550]  You'll be exposed to questions you hadn't considered, some head-shaking approaches you hadn't tried, and some ideas that might spark your own creativity.
[29:42.870 --> 29:45.730]  You know, strengthening the entire community in the process.
[29:45.910 --> 29:48.550]  Trust me, you know, the benefits go both ways.
[29:49.250 --> 29:53.030]  And one of the most important things we can do is, you know, be encouraging.
[29:53.730 --> 29:56.390]  Do your best to be available and accessible.
[29:57.030 --> 30:00.670]  Most of us aren't going to live forever, so passing your knowledge down is beneficial.
[30:01.330 --> 30:06.090]  Try to foster environments where people feel comfortable asking questions, experimenting, and sometimes failing.
[30:06.590 --> 30:14.010]  We all know how useful failing is, and some of us are really, really good at it, so it would be a shame to let all this knowledge go to waste.
[30:15.290 --> 30:18.370]  Okay, and of course, what does that say?
[30:18.530 --> 30:19.430]  We can't do it alone.
[30:19.670 --> 30:23.270]  No mission, no purpose, no meaningful life happens in isolation.
[30:23.650 --> 30:26.430]  Even the strongest among us, we rely on connection.
[30:26.950 --> 30:29.250]  Humans were not designed to live in a vacuum.
[30:29.510 --> 30:31.510]  We thrive, thrive on interaction.
[30:32.230 --> 30:36.350]  And you can't do it no matter how skilled, how driven, how resourceful you think you are.
[30:36.350 --> 30:39.050]  Certain challenges simply require other people.
[30:39.270 --> 30:40.850]  We need you, you need us.
[30:41.630 --> 30:47.090]  At West Point, they have training exercises designed so their success is impossible without teamwork.
[30:47.570 --> 30:53.850]  You know, they teach the fundamental lesson that cooperation, trust, and shared effort, they're essential for achieving difficult goals.
[30:54.550 --> 30:57.170]  You know, the same principle applies to the hacker community.
[30:57.350 --> 31:00.850]  Progress and innovation happen when we connect, share knowledge, and show support.
[31:00.850 --> 31:02.610]  And, I get it.
[31:02.890 --> 31:03.710]  I understand.
[31:03.970 --> 31:04.990]  Okay, I've been here a while.
[31:05.590 --> 31:12.110]  You know, being a person who doesn't play well with others, working in a group of people who don't play well with others, can be a challenge, okay?
[31:12.310 --> 31:14.370]  It's a big part of how we all ended up here, right?
[31:15.050 --> 31:18.230]  Could be frustrating, sometimes turbulent, but it's essential.
[31:18.430 --> 31:24.450]  Without these moments of tension and unpredictability, progress would be slow and innovation, it would stall.
[31:25.030 --> 31:25.750]  I've been there.
[31:25.870 --> 31:30.990]  Some people think too slow, some people think too fast, others do things the way I wouldn't do them, hence the wrong way.
[31:31.170 --> 31:35.590]  I hate to say it, but, you know, that's where the magic happens.
[31:35.830 --> 31:42.390]  Learning how to work together and having the resilience to get to put aside our differences helps us create some really great stuff, you know?
[31:42.810 --> 31:45.970]  If two people are exactly the same, one of them is useless.
[31:47.190 --> 31:52.370]  You know, mob bosses, you know, because we're covering everything, have something called a consigliere.
[31:52.710 --> 31:56.030]  This is somebody whose job it is to give the conflicting opinion.
[31:57.250 --> 31:59.210]  Silvo from The Sopranos was the consigliere.
[32:00.230 --> 32:04.030]  They exist because it's understood that a contrary viewpoint can be invaluable sometimes.
[32:04.450 --> 32:10.130]  Somebody has to be there to point out the risks and the long-term consequences, no matter how much we don't want to hear it.
[32:11.030 --> 32:17.090]  And now that we've covered the decline and the doom and gloom, let's have a little bit of positivity and take a look at how we can move forward.
[32:18.790 --> 32:20.330]  First one, hackerspaces.
[32:20.670 --> 32:26.330]  Your local hackerspace is a great place to meet like-minded people, shared skills and collaborate on cool projects.
[32:26.930 --> 32:28.130]  Don't have a local one?
[32:28.350 --> 32:29.590]  Think about starting one.
[32:30.130 --> 32:34.690]  All it really takes is a small group of committed people, a shared space and the willingness to build something.
[32:34.970 --> 32:36.470]  It's not as hard as you think.
[32:38.830 --> 32:42.790]  You know, just hackerspaces have been the cornerstone of the hacker community.
[32:42.830 --> 32:46.230]  If you have any questions, help, feel, you know, feel free to reach out.
[32:46.230 --> 32:50.650]  There are plenty of people that are more than happy to help you, to help start one.
[32:51.390 --> 32:54.090]  A lot of great people and projects come out of hackerspaces.
[32:54.330 --> 32:57.030]  I think we need a lot more hackerspaces in the United States.
[32:57.170 --> 32:58.210]  We need like a resurgence.
[32:58.950 --> 32:59.690]  That's, you know.
[33:02.070 --> 33:02.470]  Hackathons.
[33:07.220 --> 33:10.000]  Hackathons are a great way to learn new skills or sharpen old ones.
[33:10.120 --> 33:12.780]  Meet new people and build something cool in a short amount of time.
[33:13.240 --> 33:15.780]  If you've never been the one, you should definitely check it out.
[33:16.020 --> 33:22.840]  There's nothing better than being awake for 21 hours, banging away at a problem, catching naps in the corner, chugging Red Bulls, and eating Doritos.
[33:23.420 --> 33:23.780]  Okay.
[33:23.880 --> 33:28.040]  And maybe I'm romanticizing it a little bit, but it's definitely worth checking out.
[33:28.740 --> 33:30.420]  Or better yet, you know, you could even have your own.
[33:30.500 --> 33:32.740]  You need a few friends, a weekend, and a project idea.
[33:33.460 --> 33:36.460]  When I was younger, a bunch of us wanted to learn PHP.
[33:36.460 --> 33:38.580]  So we got together Friday to Sunday.
[33:39.180 --> 33:44.260]  You know, one person worked on the HTML, one person worked on the PHP, one person worked on the graphics.
[33:44.500 --> 33:46.480]  That's, you know, how these hackathon things work.
[33:47.800 --> 33:53.340]  And even if you're not a coder, or you don't think you have anything to contribute, definitely show up.
[33:53.440 --> 33:56.100]  You always have something to offer.
[33:56.420 --> 34:03.920]  And to go on the side here, you know, something I think a lot of people have trouble understanding is soft skills are in great demand.
[34:04.240 --> 34:08.920]  If you can herd cats, like, you know, there's a place for you at a hackathon.
[34:10.460 --> 34:15.020]  A lot of hackathons usually have a goal and have winners, but I mean, you're just a winner for showing up.
[34:15.120 --> 34:15.700]  You go through it.
[34:15.760 --> 34:16.680]  You have information.
[34:16.680 --> 34:17.620]  You meet a lot of friends.
[34:17.680 --> 34:18.400]  You start a project.
[34:18.600 --> 34:24.220]  And admittedly, it's kind of like summer camp because, you know, you do the project and you're like, we're going to keep working on this.
[34:24.280 --> 34:26.880]  And you exchange emails and you're like, this is going to be great.
[34:27.260 --> 34:29.340]  And then you get one email and that's it.
[34:29.900 --> 34:34.960]  And if you're looking for a place to start, there is a hackathon coming up at the Tesla Science Center.
[34:35.320 --> 34:38.720]  They gave a talk today at 11 o'clock that, unfortunately, I slept through.
[34:39.120 --> 34:42.180]  I mean, I didn't wake up in time to go through.
[34:42.380 --> 34:43.120]  I didn't like...
[34:43.120 --> 34:44.460]  I wasn't like so boring.
[34:44.460 --> 34:45.380]  I slept through it.
[34:45.880 --> 34:47.700]  You know, I'm like...
[34:49.500 --> 34:51.740]  And of course, 2600 meetings.
[34:52.140 --> 34:53.920]  They're a Mecca for people like us.
[34:54.480 --> 34:58.180]  98% of the people I know and love today I've met at 2600 meetings.
[34:58.180 --> 35:00.400]  They don't quite all know and love me.
[35:00.560 --> 35:02.340]  But if you've never gone...
[35:02.920 --> 35:04.320]  If you've never gone, give it a chance.
[35:04.320 --> 35:06.920]  If you haven't been there in a while, give it a second chance.
[35:06.980 --> 35:08.800]  If there's not one in your area, start one.
[35:09.680 --> 35:14.260]  Something I've been relentlessly annoying people with is my idea of a 2600 field trip.
[35:14.800 --> 35:21.300]  The idea is if you have a meeting in a small town, once or twice a year, take a trip to where the larger meeting is, say the closest metropolitan area.
[35:21.300 --> 35:24.040]  It's great for cross-pollination and making friends.
[35:24.180 --> 35:27.380]  It also helps expand your options for couch-serving.
[35:27.660 --> 35:33.700]  The hacker community is home of one of the largest couch-serving surfing networks in the world.
[35:34.180 --> 35:36.480]  Every new connection is a possible new node.
[35:36.780 --> 35:37.580]  I know this.
[35:37.660 --> 35:42.260]  I have a friend who lives in the area, and he is out of couch space and floor space.
[35:44.500 --> 35:45.880]  And of course, gatherings.
[35:46.060 --> 35:50.800]  Gatherings like this one are a great place for getting together with people that you only know on the other side of the keyboard.
[35:51.600 --> 35:54.240]  If you're not staying the entire weekend, you're missing out.
[35:54.660 --> 35:57.380]  So many memories and bonds are formed after.
[35:57.560 --> 36:01.820]  You know, there are plenty of events that go well into the night as well as spontaneous happenings.
[36:02.140 --> 36:08.260]  Who here remembers last year when the fire department had to show up to cut the chains off the gates so people could leave, right?
[36:08.900 --> 36:14.360]  You know, and they showed up right before the gate was going to mysteriously, like, be removed on its own.
[36:14.500 --> 36:16.360]  Because the ideas were getting better and better.
[36:16.740 --> 36:19.960]  And somebody was like, we should call the fire department because this is going to happen.
[36:21.960 --> 36:22.320]  Right?
[36:22.500 --> 36:24.720]  Who remembers the tunnels under the Hotel Pennsylvania?
[36:25.200 --> 36:26.560]  You know, yeah, that's...
[36:28.020 --> 36:29.620]  Yeah, that's why we're not at the Hotel...
[36:32.780 --> 36:33.140]  Right.
[36:34.080 --> 36:35.840]  Well, you dug tunnels under the Hotel Pennsylvania.
[36:36.140 --> 36:38.320]  For total immersion, I suggest you volunteer.
[36:38.940 --> 36:40.580]  Volunteering is a great way to get to know people.
[36:40.580 --> 36:42.680]  And 63%...
[36:43.280 --> 36:49.580]  People who volunteer interact 63% more with peers, leading to an eight times greater chance of future collaboration.
[36:50.040 --> 36:59.780]  And full disclosure, this statistic I pulled in regards to scientific conferences, but I think there are enough parallels in the community that it might apply here to some extent.
[37:01.020 --> 37:03.080]  The other one is, you know, be the regular.
[37:03.380 --> 37:04.180]  Start showing up.
[37:04.460 --> 37:07.480]  One of the best ways of being part of a group, be part of a group.
[37:08.020 --> 37:11.840]  Don't be afraid to make that post, hit that send button, or pitch that talk.
[37:12.280 --> 37:14.640]  You know, take the time to check out that 2600 meeting.
[37:15.100 --> 37:18.640]  A life of adventure over caffeination and fun is waiting for you.
[37:18.740 --> 37:20.420]  Trust me, it's worth it.
[37:21.860 --> 37:24.600]  Now look, this is not a great time right now.
[37:24.940 --> 37:26.840]  We're not at the top of a slippery slope.
[37:26.840 --> 37:27.840]  We have sloped.
[37:28.620 --> 37:29.340]  It's happening.
[37:29.520 --> 37:29.900]  It's now.
[37:30.100 --> 37:30.580]  We are there.
[37:31.420 --> 37:35.720]  Forces, forces are at work to divide and conquer, driving a wedge between all of us.
[37:36.520 --> 37:37.600]  Let's not do it for them.
[37:37.800 --> 37:38.520]  Let's not make it easy.
[37:39.120 --> 37:40.980]  I've seen what we can do when we need to.
[37:41.120 --> 37:42.380]  And it's, it's pretty fucking great.
[37:42.960 --> 37:44.000]  We're built for this.
[37:44.220 --> 37:44.500]  Okay.
[37:44.600 --> 37:45.920]  We're not going to be able to do it alone.
[37:45.920 --> 37:47.240]  So we do have to come together.
[37:47.340 --> 37:48.560]  We have to stand strong.
[37:52.000 --> 37:53.020]  I feel like I should y'all.
[37:57.720 --> 37:58.220]  Thank you.
[38:01.540 --> 38:05.120]  Well, I guess that's a question or I'm a little, I have warrants.
[38:05.240 --> 38:06.720]  So when people come up, it's a little weird.
[38:06.820 --> 38:07.580]  I'm serious.
[38:08.440 --> 38:10.320]  Meetup doesn't have some of the problems that you described.
[38:10.640 --> 38:12.460]  Why hasn't Meetup solved third space problem?
[38:14.040 --> 38:14.480]  Wow.
[38:14.780 --> 38:19.300]  There are, are there any ex-Meetuppers here that could spend five hours answering that question for them?
[38:21.320 --> 38:21.920]  What's that?
[38:23.840 --> 38:27.440]  From what I understand, and you didn't hear it from me, everybody.
[38:27.440 --> 38:31.740]  I think Meetup is kind of entering the zombie app phase of its existence.
[38:32.140 --> 38:33.280]  They were sold and everything.
[38:33.580 --> 38:40.060]  And yeah, I don't want to tell tales out of school, but yeah, they've just raised their prices.
[38:40.440 --> 38:43.140]  And I guess it's another example of commercialization.
[38:43.640 --> 38:47.480]  Like there was a time where it's like, we could do the right thing or we could do the thing.
[38:47.480 --> 38:48.400]  And they did the thing.
[38:50.540 --> 38:55.900]  Yeah, I started a Meetup and I had like 70 or 80 people join.
[38:56.840 --> 39:03.040]  And, but then when I had actual Meetups, over like two or three Meetups, I think I had two people show up.
[39:03.140 --> 39:04.360]  Yeah, that's another thing.
[39:04.400 --> 39:06.120]  So I don't know who these people were who were in.
[39:06.120 --> 39:09.100]  But it looks like your group is great, because when you go to the group, you're like, oh, 80 people.
[39:09.200 --> 39:09.440]  Great.
[39:10.440 --> 39:10.980]  I'm sorry.
[39:11.040 --> 39:11.620]  You had a question?
[39:12.560 --> 39:17.880]  Are you going with Robert Putnam's Holdin' Alone or the documentary's When You Die?
[39:18.320 --> 39:19.080]  No, I'm not.
[39:27.300 --> 39:27.740]  Right.
[39:30.080 --> 39:38.080]  But like Robert Putnam's work is more about, like, organizations, like, like 100 or whatever.
[39:38.120 --> 39:38.420]  Cool.
[39:39.060 --> 39:47.380]  And the reason why documentary based on the book is called When You Die is because of all the stuff you said about, like, you know, the stats of help.
[39:47.700 --> 39:48.140]  Right.
[39:48.260 --> 39:50.680]  Is that, like, you are more likely to die.
[39:50.820 --> 39:55.520]  When I was researching this, it scared me.
[39:55.600 --> 39:58.720]  And it just was like, yes, I'll definitely check it out.
[39:58.920 --> 39:59.260]  Thank you.
[39:59.400 --> 40:00.780]  Thank you very much for the recommendation.
[40:01.820 --> 40:02.540]  Yes, please.
[40:02.960 --> 40:06.920]  So one problem that can exist in those spaces is sort of clickishness.
[40:07.220 --> 40:11.500]  Where new people are, you know, there's not that bond of trust, right?
[40:11.500 --> 40:16.780]  Or there can be a tendency to, you know, stay with the people that you already know.
[40:17.100 --> 40:21.700]  How do you keep in a third space a focus on reaching out?
[40:23.500 --> 40:25.000]  Well, that's a whole...
[40:25.000 --> 40:26.840]  I see, like, hackers...
[40:26.840 --> 40:29.100]  We'll take hackerspaces and...
[40:29.840 --> 40:37.420]  Actually, hackerspaces and churches, I see a lot of parallels as far as the authoritarian structure affects the clickiness of how things go.
[40:37.920 --> 40:45.820]  And one of the main problems you have is you have an area where you have people that aren't necessarily used to being in charge of things or organizing things.
[40:45.820 --> 40:49.420]  And suddenly it becomes their life mission and it all goes...
[40:50.000 --> 40:51.420]  Yeah, I mean, also...
[40:52.820 --> 40:55.060]  I mean, I guess it just depends on your people.
[40:55.260 --> 40:56.820]  And that's a debate.
[40:56.960 --> 41:00.080]  We were talking about that just today, like the type of political structure.
[41:00.080 --> 41:05.520]  What do you do when you have somebody in your community that doesn't quite fit in or is abrasive and that sort of thing?
[41:07.220 --> 41:07.980]  I don't know.
[41:09.000 --> 41:10.240]  That's the best answer.
[41:11.180 --> 41:12.700]  I heard you asking for a place.
[41:12.800 --> 41:15.040]  I would make sure my space was...
[41:15.040 --> 41:15.860]  Yeah, you're asking.
[41:16.240 --> 41:16.440]  Yeah.
[41:16.780 --> 41:17.020]  Okay.
[41:17.480 --> 41:24.280]  From that place and also from the place of, you know, anytime you're joining a space, you have to upgrade you as an outsider.
[41:24.280 --> 41:25.400]  And that can go...
[41:26.060 --> 41:26.380]  All right.
[41:26.540 --> 41:28.400]  That I can help you with.
[41:29.420 --> 41:31.880]  Now, my comic book store had...
[41:31.880 --> 41:34.840]  We had like 35% women, which I'm very proud of.
[41:34.880 --> 41:36.700]  That's a huge number of comic book stores.
[41:37.720 --> 41:43.260]  And one of our things was, you know, how to be more inviting to women other than locking all the men in a closet.
[41:43.620 --> 41:44.440]  You know, there was no other.
[41:44.960 --> 41:48.280]  So what we did was, you know, we were just...
[41:48.840 --> 41:53.720]  We took a minute and we realized, you know, what obstacles they may have and we did our best to kind of remove them.
[41:54.280 --> 41:58.720]  So we did something called Fangirl Jamboree, because I'm all about clever names.
[41:59.580 --> 42:06.320]  So every third Friday of the month, we closed at five o'clock and we were only open to women from five to nine.
[42:06.540 --> 42:11.680]  And women could come in and they could shop and they could not be harassed and they can do whatever they did.
[42:11.780 --> 42:14.960]  And it smelled a lot better than after the Magic players left.
[42:15.280 --> 42:16.300]  That much...
[42:16.300 --> 42:17.760]  That much I can tell you.
[42:19.540 --> 42:25.300]  So, yeah, I mean, it's a matter of accommodation and it's a matter of, you know, it's an old cliche, but a fish stinks from the head.
[42:25.500 --> 42:27.960]  I mean, if you have an interesting core group.
[42:28.240 --> 42:34.860]  And again, going back to the comic shop, you know, you always had that one guy who showed up for D&D night and he had all the PDFs that he downloaded.
[42:35.600 --> 42:37.520]  And the community would self-regulate.
[42:37.700 --> 42:39.100]  They'd say, do you know where you are?
[42:39.520 --> 42:43.840]  Like, just, you know, you have to, you know, you have to buy things to support this.
[42:43.840 --> 42:44.460]  So we're here.
[42:44.800 --> 42:55.160]  So, yeah, I think if you, if you set things out all right from the onset and you get that across, then you'll also have a self-regulating community.
[42:55.780 --> 42:58.880]  Or it'll just completely go haywire and become cultish.
[42:59.980 --> 43:00.580]  Dealer's choice.
[43:01.680 --> 43:02.040]  Yes.
[43:02.460 --> 43:02.780]  Yeah.
[43:03.140 --> 43:04.780]  Um, do you have any recommendations?
[43:05.200 --> 43:10.580]  Like off the top of my head, I can think of spaces that I could like potentially do this in, right?
[43:10.660 --> 43:12.040]  Like a library community room.
[43:12.180 --> 43:12.320]  Right.
[43:12.520 --> 43:14.140]  Or like a bar.
[43:14.600 --> 43:20.780]  Um, you know, I don't like, do you have any recommendations that maybe I'm not just like thinking of off the top of my head?
[43:20.780 --> 43:21.140]  Well, okay.
[43:21.160 --> 43:22.160]  What's your ultimate goal?
[43:22.760 --> 43:27.800]  Like if, if I were going to like, I'm, I'm pretty good at community organizing.
[43:27.980 --> 43:28.220]  Okay.
[43:28.520 --> 43:34.000]  Um, so if I were going to start a space like this, I'm trying to think of like where, where it could be.
[43:34.520 --> 43:39.740]  Um, actually renting space is actually an easier thing.
[43:39.920 --> 43:41.860]  It's not, it's not as hard as you think it is.
[43:42.020 --> 43:50.860]  Um, especially if you're just meeting, like, you know, when we started FUBAR labs in New Jersey, fair use building and research, the initials just happened to spell FUBAR.
[43:52.000 --> 43:58.800]  Um, you know, we, we were looking at a lot of like office space and people are like, well, we can't get a T1 line in there.
[43:58.940 --> 44:00.540]  And we can't, you know, it's like, we're, we're not at that point.
[44:00.560 --> 44:04.000]  We all need a place to sit down and talk and we move up and up and up.
[44:04.540 --> 44:06.840]  So really it's just, you know, libraries are great for that.
[44:06.960 --> 44:14.440]  And I know someone was just telling me that their library allows to, to reserve the room twice a year, you know, that kind of thing.
[44:14.500 --> 44:15.260]  And that could be rough.
[44:15.280 --> 44:19.380]  Um, and in New York, they have a theater spaces you can rent.
[44:19.380 --> 44:27.040]  Like if you have an improv team, you can rent, you know, an empty, you know, almost storage locker for like half an hour at a time.
[44:27.160 --> 44:29.120]  It's not ideal, but it's a place.
[44:29.160 --> 44:30.920]  Or you just meet at Leo's house.
[44:31.120 --> 44:32.100]  He's, he's fine with it.
[44:32.560 --> 44:33.940]  I'm, I'm in New Mexico.
[44:34.260 --> 44:34.540]  Okay.
[44:35.300 --> 44:39.240]  Uh, the importance to hold things out as well.
[44:39.500 --> 44:40.300]  Parks, there you go.
[44:40.300 --> 44:40.480]  Yeah.
[44:40.780 --> 44:43.220]  And that's, and nobody knows it, so that's cheap.
[44:43.440 --> 44:43.800]  And yeah.
[44:44.300 --> 44:44.520]  Yeah.
[44:44.740 --> 44:44.920]  Churches.
[44:45.940 --> 44:46.440]  Churches.
[44:46.700 --> 44:46.760]  Right?
[44:49.360 --> 44:49.860]  Yeah.
[44:52.120 --> 44:56.020]  Well, if, if they let the boy scouts in, they'll let anybody in.
[44:59.340 --> 45:02.140]  Like, you know, I didn't know as much as the next one, but.
[45:02.780 --> 45:05.560]  I just would love to have three homies here for four hours.
[45:05.860 --> 45:06.040]  Right.
[45:06.820 --> 45:07.560]  Contributing money.
[45:07.820 --> 45:09.760]  Because those people are standing in the door to ask you for eight hours.
[45:10.480 --> 45:10.640]  Right.
[45:10.680 --> 45:14.540]  They will, well, every, every store will welcome the tiniest little room.
[45:14.760 --> 45:15.000]  So.
[45:15.820 --> 45:15.960]  Oh.
[45:16.380 --> 45:18.580]  I really get squirted for you as well.
[45:18.580 --> 45:19.240]  Yeah.
[45:19.660 --> 45:19.960]  Pretty sure.
[45:20.120 --> 45:20.600]  That makes sense.
[45:20.640 --> 45:21.040]  They have one.
[45:21.180 --> 45:21.780]  This is.
[45:22.020 --> 45:23.040]  Yeah, they have Wi-Fi.
[45:23.820 --> 45:24.320]  And you're sorry.
[45:24.820 --> 45:26.040]  Any other questions?
[45:26.740 --> 45:27.100]  Yes.
[45:29.080 --> 45:38.640]  Like, throughout your talk, especially when you're talking about, like, um, suburbanization community and gentrification, this fact is in this decline in other spaces.
[45:38.920 --> 45:47.700]  But the specter of market of racism and other forms of discrimination, kind of, for, in the background, at least, if not in this.
[45:48.060 --> 45:48.440]  Right.
[45:48.580 --> 45:57.620]  What do you, do you see your role for community activists, non-mental or mental organizations, in the state, in the creation and maintenance?
[45:58.220 --> 46:00.340]  It's, I don't know.
[46:00.340 --> 46:09.420]  In Germany, I believe they actually are involved with third spaces and with hobbyist groups where you can petition them and actually get some financing, I believe.
[46:12.360 --> 46:12.800]  Right.
[46:13.240 --> 46:17.460]  Um, and that's worked out, but we're not, we're not Germany yet.
[46:17.620 --> 46:21.020]  So it's, um, it's not.
[46:21.680 --> 46:22.120]  Yeah.
[46:22.240 --> 46:23.940]  Let me, let me look at my, uh, clock here.
[46:24.320 --> 46:26.660]  Um, I, I don't know.
[46:26.660 --> 46:35.360]  I mean, if states, if there are programs like, we'll give you money, we'll give you space, we'll, you know, do what you want, that sort of thing, then great.
[46:35.560 --> 46:36.640]  Otherwise, I don't know.
[46:36.820 --> 46:42.880]  I mean, I don't know if I, I don't say I don't trust the government, but you don't know when that stuff, the rug's going to be pulled out.
[46:47.520 --> 46:48.280]  Yes, please.
[46:49.780 --> 46:53.840]  Do you have any suggestions for how to, like, diversify a space?
[46:54.360 --> 46:58.320]  Uh, we, we jump up the dicks that you're not a part of, but I'm going to cross the United.
[47:00.500 --> 47:06.840]  Well, I mean, it's kind of like, you know, you first, you get your ducks in a row and I've seen a lot of ducks here today.
[47:07.240 --> 47:10.160]  Um, either on people's hats or everywhere.
[47:10.720 --> 47:19.020]  Um, I mean, I guess there are places like this, like plenty of hackerspaces cross, cross promote, plenty of people, plenty of friends, connections are made.
[47:19.160 --> 47:25.540]  And also if you're established, if you're like, you know, we'd like to do something with you and here's our web space and here's our newsletter.
[47:25.780 --> 47:29.040]  And here's a couple of YouTube videos of some stuff that we did, that sort of thing.
[47:29.600 --> 47:40.560]  Then, you know, I think the real thing is to add a little bit of legitimacy, not like, you know, we're coming over and we're going to be part of your group or please.
[47:40.880 --> 47:48.360]  Um, I, I really, I think meeting together in person is, is, uh, the best.
[47:48.840 --> 47:54.780]  Uh, and, um, and yet the thing that I'm most interested in these days are decentralized protocols.
[47:55.260 --> 47:55.720]  Okay.
[47:55.880 --> 48:00.540]  Um, but really for their, for their, uh, potential to help us coordinate.
[48:01.180 --> 48:06.480]  Uh, and when you were talking about Mastodon, um, so that's built on activity pub.
[48:06.620 --> 48:07.000]  Is that right?
[48:07.300 --> 48:08.000]  I believe so.
[48:08.040 --> 48:08.140]  Yeah.
[48:08.160 --> 48:13.780]  And then we've also got at proto with, uh, blue sky and, um, Tim Berners-Lee has one called solid.
[48:14.600 --> 48:26.800]  And, um, sometimes I, I feel really conflicted about like, um, like I want, I want there to be one decentralized protocol, which is kind of, well, ironic, I guess.
[48:26.800 --> 48:27.140]  Yeah.
[48:27.400 --> 48:27.820]  Thank you.
[48:31.500 --> 48:37.540]  Um, I don't, I guess, I don't, I guess part of my question is why Mastodon?
[48:38.200 --> 48:42.920]  Um, what, what is it that it, and where do you see this going?
[48:43.880 --> 48:46.120]  Um, where do you see Mastodon going?
[48:46.420 --> 48:56.600]  Well, just the decentralized protocols, like, um, I mean, there's a big part of me that want, I just want, I want blue sky to, to like win because I want there to be, um, mass adoption.
[48:57.160 --> 48:59.520]  I'm not sure I want blue sky to win.
[48:59.880 --> 49:02.840]  I'm not, I mean, but I also, okay, let me back up.
[49:02.940 --> 49:06.680]  I want some, like, there's a part of me that wants somebody to win so that there will be mass adoption.
[49:06.760 --> 49:07.000]  Yes.
[49:07.200 --> 49:10.980]  And for mass adoption, what I mean is I want to destroy the business model.
[49:11.320 --> 49:11.720]  100%.
[49:11.720 --> 49:13.780]  I, uh, and the rest of them.
[49:13.820 --> 49:21.280]  I have been saber rattling for years that the BBS is going to make a comeback because eventually what, thank you.
[49:21.340 --> 49:21.780]  Thank you, Leo.
[49:21.940 --> 49:22.520]  Thank you for coming.
[49:22.900 --> 49:27.160]  That we're, we're going to need, we're going to need another form of communication.
[49:27.380 --> 49:37.040]  And, you know, and that's kind of why meshtastic is so appealing, at least to me, because there's going to be a time when, you know, regular lines of communication are just going to drop down.
[49:37.220 --> 49:43.120]  And that's when we got to jump on our meshtastic, jump on our, you know, on our BBSs and that sort of thing.
[49:43.300 --> 49:47.580]  I mean, we're, we're going to be kind of maybe driven more underground.
[49:47.580 --> 49:53.560]  And I agree with you 100% that there should be plenty of choices, but only one choice.
[49:54.320 --> 49:58.500]  That's really what... that's kind of what we're saying, but that's, you know...
[49:58.500 --> 50:11.920]  The beginning of the talk, you focused on, like, third spaces as, like, coffee shops and bars, where people sort of go to naturally along their day, whereas most of the things we're talking about now are things you plan to go to, right?
[50:12.560 --> 50:17.480]  And so how important is that sort of incidental nature, and what if we lose if we don't have that?
[50:18.040 --> 50:32.320]  Well, just anecdotally, when they moved the workshops and they moved the C track over here, and anybody who tried to have a talk in the third track, you know, did they suffer just because, you know, at the Hotel Penn, when you were going to the regular talks,
[50:32.320 --> 50:40.920]  there was a big sign, or you can go this way and we're talking about this, and people just... there was... the incidentalness was kind of gone, and it definitely had an effect.
[50:41.100 --> 50:43.600]  I mean, I talked to a lot of people that had third track talks.
[50:44.280 --> 50:54.760]  So, you know, the... and that goes back to the whole niche thing where, you know, to find an incidental, you know, hacker space on the street corner instead of a Starbucks is going to be tough.
[50:55.100 --> 50:56.640]  But yeah, the incidentalness.
[50:56.780 --> 51:11.540]  And that's also places like this, which is why hope is such a better conference... not better, but you have your DEF CON, your security conferences where hope, you can come because you're into music, you're into retro games, you're into whatnot, and you can stumble across a hacker space,
[51:11.700 --> 51:14.800]  you can stumble across... and that... again, that goes back to serendipitous discovery.
[51:16.560 --> 51:17.120]  All right.
[51:18.040 --> 51:19.540]  Any other questions, complaints?
[51:19.860 --> 51:20.400]  Yes, please.
[51:21.380 --> 51:24.140]  Um, I think it's one of the local corners.
[51:24.340 --> 51:30.400]  So, I went to, like, VTNs and, uh, done a lot of, like, user research and stuff like that.
[51:30.680 --> 51:32.620]  Uh, I'm also familiar with Thor.
[51:32.620 --> 51:49.480]  It's, um, and one thing we realized is that, um, the hacker, kind of, as an entity, is kind of, like, from the ground and, like, mainly the space, hacker space, um, for instance, is something that will turn up for our people.
[51:49.720 --> 51:51.160]  As it's, like, another guy fight.
[51:51.480 --> 51:53.460]  I know there's, like, another entity, you know?
[51:53.680 --> 51:53.680]  Wow.
[51:54.120 --> 51:55.520]  Everybody's, everybody's hitting nerves today.
[51:55.680 --> 51:55.880]  Yeah.
[51:56.180 --> 51:57.200]  Like, I thought I'd use this thing.
[51:57.300 --> 52:02.300]  It's, like, when Thor was, like, all, like, all the ground thing was, like, people wouldn't use it and have their main intruder.
[52:02.580 --> 52:04.320]  And that's stuff that, like, attracts people.
[52:04.620 --> 52:10.960]  So, to be exclusive, maybe phrasing-wise a maker space and a hacker space... Well, I'll, I'll say this.
[52:11.100 --> 52:16.300]  Whenever people ask me, and people do ask me, what is the difference between a hacker space and a maker space?
[52:16.560 --> 52:18.200]  I always answer the same thing.
[52:19.780 --> 52:20.260]  Monetization.
[52:20.260 --> 52:22.120]  That always seems to be the difference.
[52:24.620 --> 52:26.500]  It's... I just, I don't know.
[52:26.720 --> 52:29.980]  And, I mean, and it's just, again, old man yelling a cloud.
[52:30.180 --> 52:33.660]  It might just be, you know, the, the word maker space just kind of chokes in my mouth.
[52:33.820 --> 52:34.220]  I don't know.
[52:35.360 --> 52:41.580]  You know, some people might consider the hacker space, the maker space, like, the bastardization of the hacker space.
[52:41.580 --> 52:43.020]  And I'm not saying that.
[52:43.160 --> 52:45.100]  It's the same exact thing with a different name.
[52:45.220 --> 52:45.920]  I get what you're saying.
[52:46.100 --> 52:46.980]  Branding is important.
[52:48.020 --> 52:49.360]  Um, yeah.
[52:49.540 --> 52:55.420]  And kind of a big part of what I'm saying is maybe we need to kind of tighten up our community and then worry about branding and everything.
[52:55.600 --> 52:56.220]  But yeah, I agree.
[52:56.420 --> 52:58.700]  Hacker space, hacker spot, maker space.
[52:59.180 --> 52:59.520]  Yeah.
[53:01.660 --> 53:02.920]  Um, I'm sorry.
[53:03.020 --> 53:03.360]  Question?
[53:04.640 --> 53:09.500]  Actually, I was curious in terms of, to respond to this question that you had.
[53:09.780 --> 53:14.860]  Um, sorry to say you, like, with my, and that felt rude for some reason.
[53:15.680 --> 53:34.600]  Um, but I feel like one of the things that I saw a lot in high school was that, like, like, it's good to be, I feel like sometimes people will try to, like, recruit folks into a subculture and think that the thing that's off-putting about them is the fact that they are a subculture.
[53:35.120 --> 53:55.000]  And I feel like in order to, like, steward a subculture, because subcultures themselves are really important, but to steward diverse subcultures often, like, like, for me, the thing that, uh, uh, made me, like, not want to avoid hacker spaces wasn't necessarily the image of a hacker,
[53:55.360 --> 54:05.120]  but it was, like, it was, like, the smell or, like, um, things of, that were more of, like, like, so, like, the smell is a bad...
[54:05.920 --> 54:07.600]  Things that are more indicative of hackers.
[54:07.620 --> 54:12.040]  It was sort of a sense of, like, me having an idea of, like, the kind of social experience I would have.
[54:12.380 --> 54:20.780]  And, like, not necessarily me, like, being fearful of appearing a certain way to other people or, like, implying certain things about my own hobbies.
[54:21.260 --> 54:24.300]  And I feel like there's a lot of, like...
[54:25.220 --> 54:39.280]  I feel like there's a lot that's really attractive to a wide audience, or not the, not the world, but a wide audience about, like, the kind of countercultural, like, values of a hacker space.
[54:39.640 --> 54:58.360]  And the kind of, like, like Mr. Robot was, like, such a well-watched, like, thing that I think it's less important to, like, try and seem less like hackers, and more important to seem like people that we'll have, like, normal, not unhinged conversations with.
[54:59.060 --> 55:06.980]  Well, that, that, that also, that goes back to, well, A, your different flavor of hacker space.
[55:07.120 --> 55:11.500]  And one of the great things about New York is there's plenty of hacker spaces, and they each have a different flavor.
[55:11.800 --> 55:16.240]  And the second one, which I could do another whole talk on, is the death of the subculture.
[55:16.820 --> 55:20.480]  Like, all you need are 10 minutes of Wikipedia, and you can be part of any subculture.
[55:20.700 --> 55:22.920]  And that's, that's a, that's sort of a problem.
[55:23.100 --> 55:29.820]  I mean, I'm not to be gatekeepy about it, but, you know, there was a time where when you were in a subculture, you were in a subculture.
[55:29.960 --> 55:33.220]  And now, I, it's hard to tell what that word even means anymore.
[55:34.220 --> 55:37.260]  And yes, and maybe it's a bias, and maybe it's something I shouldn't do.
[55:37.380 --> 55:49.060]  But when somebody tells me they're in part of a hacker space, and then when somebody tells me they're part of a maker space, I actually put them in two We have two different buckets just from that, whether they say hackerspace or makerspace.
[55:49.300 --> 55:51.920]  And I know, shame on me, but it's something I do.
[55:52.280 --> 55:52.420]  Yes?
[55:52.680 --> 55:58.260]  I was one of the founding members of my local makerspace, but I would say there's a huge overlap.
[55:58.840 --> 56:05.820]  And you'll see folks from the Huntington Sunday meeting there, but there are also people in the makerspace who are effectively actors.
[56:06.640 --> 56:08.540]  In mentality that wasn't necessarily at all.
[56:09.560 --> 56:15.520]  I'm not saying never the twain shall meet or anything, but if I had my druthers, I would call it a hackerspace.
[56:15.940 --> 56:20.320]  But I have been wrong and outvoted many, many, many times before.
[56:22.180 --> 56:22.620]  Yes?
[56:25.280 --> 56:28.300]  I guess, yeah, I just want to thank you again for this.
[56:29.060 --> 56:30.460]  Yeah, for this call.
[56:30.880 --> 56:32.480]  I think it's very important that...
[56:32.480 --> 56:35.300]  Well, can we teach a goal extension to these like grand spaces?
[56:35.760 --> 56:39.700]  I understand like a lot of like young men was like growing up like some of us.
[56:40.860 --> 56:42.620]  Yeah, there's a space that even registered.
[56:43.140 --> 56:53.940]  So it's good for a lot of those who have, you know, a merchant behind their mind otherwise to know that, yeah, there are spaces that we have or you still have to take up the fight.
[56:53.940 --> 56:56.020]  It was about...
[56:56.720 --> 56:58.060]  Yes, thank you.
[57:00.460 --> 57:01.280]  Anything else?
[57:01.440 --> 57:03.040]  I think we're almost out of time.
[57:04.700 --> 57:08.140]  Go to the closing ceremonies or go home or...
[57:08.140 --> 57:08.640]  Yeah.
[57:09.200 --> 57:10.000]  Well, thank you.
[57:10.180 --> 57:11.400]  Thank you for indulging me.
[57:11.640 --> 57:11.860]  Thank you.
[57:11.880 --> 57:12.120]  Thank you.
[57:12.260 --> 57:12.280]  Thank you.