[00:00.000 --> 00:03.260]  So the host said, I can introduce myself any way I want.
[00:04.780 --> 00:09.780]  So I was in the cafeteria earlier, and I sat at a table so I could charge my laptop.
[00:10.620 --> 00:13.300]  And a gentleman saw me and said, oh, you're a speaker.
[00:13.420 --> 00:13.920]  I said, yeah.
[00:14.060 --> 00:15.960]  He said, what are you speaking about?
[00:16.060 --> 00:17.000]  I said, North Korea.
[00:17.120 --> 00:18.580]  He said, oh, you're balloon guy.
[00:21.120 --> 00:23.480]  So I'm going to introduce myself as balloon guy.
[00:25.100 --> 00:26.700]  They're still using balloons.
[00:27.120 --> 00:30.100]  And the question here is, who is they?
[00:31.180 --> 00:37.960]  They is activist groups in South Korea that are trying to send information into North Korea.
[00:38.460 --> 00:50.760]  Their goal is to, I guess, illuminate North Koreans to what the outside world is like for various reasons, some religious, some political.
[00:52.780 --> 00:56.800]  But regardless of their reason, their goal is to get information in.
[00:57.760 --> 01:00.020]  They use these balloons filled with leaflets.
[01:00.820 --> 01:02.260]  The leaflets are at the bottom.
[01:02.920 --> 01:06.320]  Sometimes they put other things other than leaflets, like USB drives.
[01:06.560 --> 01:08.100]  Sometimes they put candy.
[01:08.980 --> 01:11.140]  Sometimes they use USB for...
[01:11.920 --> 01:15.080]  Sometimes they put dollar bills in there, foreign currency.
[01:17.100 --> 01:19.060]  But they are still using balloons.
[01:20.280 --> 01:22.620]  I question the efficacy of the balloons.
[01:22.980 --> 01:26.500]  We can see that they are getting into North Korea.
[01:26.640 --> 01:29.160]  The boundaries are kind of hard to see.
[01:29.380 --> 01:35.920]  But where there's a large cluster of pink there, that's South Korea near the border.
[01:37.020 --> 01:40.220]  And we see they're actually getting all the way up to China.
[01:40.800 --> 01:42.420]  But not very many of them.
[01:42.580 --> 01:43.540]  I think it's maybe...
[01:44.660 --> 01:46.920]  I don't know, something like seven...
[01:47.460 --> 01:50.560]  Seven to ten of them are actually getting into North Korea at all.
[01:50.780 --> 01:53.680]  And this is probably representing 25 launches.
[01:54.200 --> 02:00.500]  This map comes from an underground group that won't reveal their identities to anyone.
[02:00.500 --> 02:01.340]  This is an interview.
[02:02.040 --> 02:03.740]  An interview was given to Reuters.
[02:04.520 --> 02:11.760]  Where they told Reuters that they started putting 3D printed materials and GPS trackers on their balloons.
[02:11.960 --> 02:17.540]  So they gave this GPS data to Reuters.
[02:17.720 --> 02:20.020]  And this is how we know where these balloons are going.
[02:21.980 --> 02:25.720]  My question when I saw this stuff is, why are they still using balloons?
[02:26.120 --> 02:29.140]  There's so many other ways to get information into North Korea.
[02:29.140 --> 02:35.240]  Or at least I thought so, before I started to do a little bit more research.
[02:36.280 --> 02:41.220]  And my conclusion after doing all of this research is that we need innovation.
[02:41.800 --> 02:58.780]  And I'm here speaking to you all mostly because after having conversations with some of the people who actually work with North Korean defectors and North Koreans domestically still in North Korea, with the goal of getting information into North Korea,
[02:58.980 --> 03:02.820]  it seems like the thing that's missing is engineers.
[03:03.220 --> 03:07.060]  The more you look into it, the more the tech professionals are just absent.
[03:07.300 --> 03:09.080]  And this is why they're still using balloons.
[03:09.080 --> 03:11.600]  So, hi, my name is Aman.
[03:11.960 --> 03:14.180]  My actual name is Aman, not Balloon Guy.
[03:14.900 --> 03:16.600]  But I do like Balloon Guy.
[03:18.540 --> 03:19.820]  I'm a software engineer.
[03:19.820 --> 03:26.700]  I've been working on researching North Korea generally for three years.
[03:26.700 --> 03:31.600]  And in the past year, I've specified to getting information into North Korea.
[03:31.740 --> 03:40.560]  I've had many conversations with some of the more high profile individuals in the scene who I'll talk about later.
[03:43.830 --> 03:50.830]  And I'm just here to talk about how people are getting information into North Korea or how they're not getting information into North Korea.
[03:51.750 --> 03:57.690]  I'm going to cover the Internet, I'm going to cover cell phones, I'm going to cover balloons, and there's some other stuff with that.
[03:59.390 --> 04:04.950]  But before I get into that, let's talk about why we would want to get information into North Korea at all.
[04:06.810 --> 04:07.670]  Good question.
[04:08.410 --> 04:10.110]  The situation is dire.
[04:12.510 --> 04:19.190]  So, I think most people are familiar with, at least nominally, what's happening in North Korea.
[04:19.190 --> 04:24.070]  But people may not know that in 2021, a law was enacted.
[04:24.410 --> 04:27.210]  I'm going to try to save a law without looking at the page.
[04:27.430 --> 04:29.190]  Okay, it's called the Reactionary...
[04:30.550 --> 04:31.070]  Wait.
[04:32.430 --> 04:33.470]  The Reactionary...
[04:35.170 --> 04:36.470]  Okay, I'm the chief.
[04:37.550 --> 04:43.750]  Reactionary Ideology and Cultural Rejection Act of the Democratic People's Republic of Korea.
[04:43.750 --> 04:44.010]  Okay.
[04:44.230 --> 04:47.450]  I was able to do that when I practiced, but now I'm like climbing up.
[04:48.410 --> 04:53.630]  All right, so I'm going to give you a couple of articles from this law.
[04:54.170 --> 04:56.110]  There's 41 articles in total.
[04:57.350 --> 04:58.810]  I've got four for you.
[04:59.530 --> 05:06.210]  Article 24 is a prohibition on speaking, writing, and singing South Korean.
[05:06.430 --> 05:15.210]  So, if you say a South Korean word, or write a South Korean word down, you get a minimum sentence of two years in forced labor.
[05:15.970 --> 05:22.230]  Article 28 is the crime of distributing material from what they call hostile countries.
[05:22.230 --> 05:35.070]  So, basically every country that's not China, if you get caught distributing material from any country that's not China, that is a minimum five to ten years in forced labor camp.
[05:36.430 --> 05:39.410]  Article 34 is the crime of not reporting.
[05:40.570 --> 05:45.610]  And that comes with what they call a short term in forced labor camp.
[05:46.570 --> 05:57.950]  And then there's Article 27, which was so shocking to me that I decided not to write it, not to type it, but to actually screenshot it and put it on the presentation itself.
[05:59.010 --> 06:02.610]  It might be a little hard to read with this contrast, but let's see.
[06:05.310 --> 06:06.550]  Oh, my bad.
[06:06.690 --> 06:12.310]  Forgot to say, we don't use this big word in the West, or this big law name in the West.
[06:12.470 --> 06:14.950]  We call it the anti-reactionary thought law.
[06:15.990 --> 06:17.150]  This is Article 27.
[06:19.050 --> 06:21.690]  I'll read it verbatim for anyone that can't read it.
[06:21.690 --> 06:32.270]  It says, any person who brings in or distributes South Korean movies, recordings, compilations, and books shall be sentenced to reform through labor for life.
[06:32.270 --> 06:39.790]  This is in the anti-reactionary thought law that's been recently enacted.
[06:40.790 --> 06:43.470]  And North Korea is backing this up.
[06:43.610 --> 06:49.190]  They're actually taking actions to execute people who go against this law.
[06:49.190 --> 06:51.310]  This happened this year.
[06:51.590 --> 06:54.230]  As a matter of fact, a few days ago, this was published.
[06:55.210 --> 06:59.750]  And it says, North Korean man executed for listening to 70 K-pop songs.
[07:00.090 --> 07:04.850]  I drove here from Atlanta, and I must have listened to hundreds of K-pop songs.
[07:05.190 --> 07:11.710]  So it's unfathomable that that's a sentence worthy of life.
[07:13.050 --> 07:20.790]  You would imagine that in this sort of climate, more people now than ever would be escaping North Korea, but the numbers don't say that.
[07:21.510 --> 07:23.110]  What we actually see is...
[07:23.110 --> 07:33.890]  So these are statistics given to us by the Ministry of Reunification, which is a government body responsible for keeping track of what's going on in North Korea.
[07:33.890 --> 07:35.270]  This South Korean government body.
[07:36.230 --> 07:44.990]  We see that this year, we've got about eight males and 135 females that have made it out this year.
[07:45.470 --> 07:50.250]  Last couple of years, it got as low as 63 people in general, like in total.
[07:51.010 --> 07:58.550]  This is stark contrast from back in 2003, when we saw something like 2,900 people get out.
[07:58.550 --> 08:00.050]  It was...
[08:00.970 --> 08:08.350]  To be a little bit more specific about these statistics, these are the statistics of people that escape North Korea and make it to South Korea.
[08:08.510 --> 08:10.330]  So this isn't everyone that escapes.
[08:10.550 --> 08:14.450]  This is just the people that escaped that have arrived in South Korea.
[08:15.090 --> 08:15.730]  So the number is...
[08:16.910 --> 08:23.370]  You know, thank God the number is a little bit higher than this in general, but we don't know how much more.
[08:24.970 --> 08:27.810]  Nonetheless, it's very bleat.
[08:27.990 --> 08:28.890]  People aren't getting out.
[08:29.110 --> 08:33.930]  People that are staying in North Korea are being killed for thinking the wrong way.
[08:35.830 --> 08:39.770]  But there is hope among the youth and among the working class.
[08:40.050 --> 08:43.510]  These are two categories of people that specifically really want information.
[08:44.490 --> 08:46.550]  The demand is very high for them.
[08:46.550 --> 08:55.330]  The youth, they grew up in a generation that the government promised their parents and their grandparents certain things.
[08:55.550 --> 09:00.570]  In exchange for working day in and day out, we'll give you free housing, free health care, free everything.
[09:01.510 --> 09:02.370]  We'll take care of everything.
[09:03.570 --> 09:06.530]  And the youth see that this is not what has happened.
[09:07.310 --> 09:08.790]  They know the government is lying.
[09:08.890 --> 09:11.530]  They don't know to what extent, and they want to know.
[09:12.130 --> 09:16.870]  Then the working class, these are people who don't necessarily want to leave.
[09:17.090 --> 09:17.510]  They're here.
[09:17.710 --> 09:18.210]  They're there.
[09:19.150 --> 09:20.610]  They're okay with what's going on.
[09:20.690 --> 09:22.270]  They might even be loyal to the government.
[09:23.610 --> 09:27.810]  And they want outside information because they use it for their day-to-day lives.
[09:27.970 --> 09:33.370]  For example, on the black market, we see people trading foreign currencies.
[09:33.370 --> 09:40.370]  And so to evaluate how much these foreign currencies are worth, they use outside material information.
[09:41.590 --> 09:42.590]  And so...
[09:43.510 --> 09:47.950]  Okay, so how do we get this information to them?
[09:48.250 --> 09:50.210]  Well, there is the global Internet.
[09:52.930 --> 09:56.210]  There's a myth that North Korea doesn't have the Internet.
[09:56.590 --> 09:57.670]  It is incorrect.
[09:57.890 --> 09:59.290]  North Korea does have the Internet.
[09:59.850 --> 10:08.230]  I think anyone familiar with the hacks of North Korea know that they must have the Internet in order to connect to the outside world.
[10:09.050 --> 10:10.750]  Yet a lot of people think they don't.
[10:10.850 --> 10:11.490]  But they do.
[10:12.850 --> 10:15.030]  The elites have access to the Internet.
[10:15.230 --> 10:17.450]  And like I said, the hackers have access to the Internet.
[10:17.670 --> 10:21.990]  But there are a couple of other interest groups that have access to the Internet.
[10:21.990 --> 10:28.070]  For example, in Pyongyang, the World Health Organization has an office.
[10:28.290 --> 10:34.530]  There are also offices for, for example, the Swedish government and the embassies and things like that.
[10:34.850 --> 10:36.150]  These places have Internet.
[10:36.590 --> 10:42.490]  And North Koreans are actively going into these places to use their global Internet.
[10:42.490 --> 10:44.370]  It's a very risky operation.
[10:44.870 --> 10:53.250]  And not many people do it because not many people are that close to these, to these World Health Organization individuals, these offices.
[10:54.090 --> 10:55.290]  But it does happen.
[10:56.470 --> 11:03.950]  Another people, another group of people that have access to the Internet, of course, are the visitors of North Korea.
[11:04.450 --> 11:07.630]  They put the global Internet in the hotels in North Korea.
[11:07.750 --> 11:10.330]  So if you visit anytime, you'll have access to the Internet.
[11:10.730 --> 11:18.810]  You'll probably see a sign that looks like this, which looks like something you would see in America, or any country, I guess.
[11:20.750 --> 11:26.530]  Of course, they want you to think this is so widely available that, you know, they just let you know that we have it here.
[11:28.330 --> 11:33.210]  So in any case, they do have access to the Internet in the hotels.
[11:34.350 --> 11:39.450]  But the average North Korean does not know anything about the Internet.
[11:40.330 --> 11:43.650]  A report came out called Digital Hostages.
[11:43.750 --> 11:45.310]  This report came out in 2013.
[11:45.770 --> 11:48.770]  They surveyed 158 North Korean defectors.
[11:48.970 --> 11:51.110]  They asked them about their network usage.
[11:51.270 --> 11:52.650]  What kind of phone did you use?
[11:52.750 --> 11:56.070]  What kind of, you know, do you know about the Internet?
[11:56.070 --> 11:57.250]  What did you do on the Internet?
[11:57.570 --> 11:59.930]  Like, did you know anyone else that used the Internet?
[12:00.110 --> 12:00.970]  These kinds of questions.
[12:01.770 --> 12:03.010]  I've pulled some quotes.
[12:03.190 --> 12:05.750]  I'm going to just kind of summarize what these quotes say.
[12:06.370 --> 12:09.250]  So the first guy is basically saying he had no idea about...
[12:09.250 --> 12:13.370]  Well, he knew the concept of an Internet, which is something that they teach in schools.
[12:13.710 --> 12:22.850]  If you get selected to learn about computer science in schools, they'll teach you what an Internet is in a very conceptual way.
[12:22.850 --> 12:26.570]  But this guy had no idea what was on the Internet.
[12:27.330 --> 12:30.250]  The second guy didn't have access to...
[12:30.250 --> 12:32.190]  He didn't understand what Wi-Fi is.
[12:32.330 --> 12:35.010]  Even though he had a cell phone, he didn't understand what Wi-Fi is.
[12:35.130 --> 12:36.990]  He just used a cell phone for...
[12:38.030 --> 12:38.690]  For fun.
[12:38.790 --> 12:40.330]  And we'll talk about cell phones a little later.
[12:40.330 --> 12:42.910]  Now, there's another layer to the Internet.
[12:43.470 --> 12:46.330]  And most people, I think...
[12:47.770 --> 12:49.910]  Or... I don't... I won't say most people.
[12:50.050 --> 12:54.010]  But a lot of people, when they say the Korean Internet, this is what they're talking about.
[12:54.270 --> 12:55.450]  It's called Gwangmyung.
[12:55.670 --> 12:57.750]  And it means bright star.
[12:57.890 --> 12:58.550]  And it's the intranet.
[12:59.610 --> 13:02.310]  There are a lot of things that happen on this intranet.
[13:02.510 --> 13:04.430]  North Korea has actually become a very...
[13:05.390 --> 13:06.990]  A very connected state.
[13:07.390 --> 13:11.930]  So, for example, they have video streaming services that rival Netflix.
[13:12.190 --> 13:16.890]  Of course, there's no... nothing on it other than propaganda.
[13:17.450 --> 13:20.410]  But I guess you could say the same about Netflix if you really think about it.
[13:20.410 --> 13:21.490]  But...
[13:23.290 --> 13:23.610]  But...
[13:24.170 --> 13:26.410]  They also have online education.
[13:26.650 --> 13:30.870]  You can get an education from your home if you have enough money to have a computer.
[13:31.150 --> 13:35.550]  And are select enough to access the... access Gwangmyung.
[13:37.930 --> 13:39.430]  But the thing is...
[13:40.650 --> 13:43.410]  Most people still don't know about this, actually.
[13:43.610 --> 13:49.230]  So, there's widespread adoption amongst the ruling class.
[13:49.230 --> 13:52.150]  But what we're seeing is...
[13:52.150 --> 13:54.990]  And here's another quote from that digital hostages study.
[13:55.770 --> 14:02.970]  What we're seeing is that about 68.4% of escapers were entirely unaware that there was an intranet.
[14:03.950 --> 14:07.630]  Of course, this is only 158 people.
[14:07.850 --> 14:12.090]  But these are the people that made it out of North Korea into South Korea.
[14:12.210 --> 14:16.570]  So, these were people who were more aware than the average North Korean.
[14:16.570 --> 14:19.970]  And they, on average, had no idea about the intranet.
[14:20.210 --> 14:28.090]  So, we can kind of guess that using the Internet or intranet are going to be very poor vectors of attack.
[14:28.470 --> 14:35.070]  And from my research and talking to people who get information into North Korea, this is the case.
[14:35.310 --> 14:36.930]  Pretty much no one uses the Internet.
[14:36.930 --> 14:37.110]  So, we're excited.
[14:37.970 --> 14:38.910]  So, we're excited.
[14:38.910 --> 14:41.530]  Now, there's hope.
[14:42.070 --> 14:46.070]  This is where my research is coming in handy.
[14:46.230 --> 14:50.810]  I've been pitching ideas to incubators.
[14:51.030 --> 14:53.750]  And in fall, I should... we'll see what happens.
[14:53.990 --> 14:59.030]  But I should be in an incubator to implement a specific idea.
[14:59.030 --> 15:01.610]  And I'm going to kind of walk through that idea here.
[15:03.970 --> 15:08.130]  But before I go... before I go through that, I just want to give like a trigger warning.
[15:08.270 --> 15:10.750]  The next couple of slides are...
[15:10.750 --> 15:16.430]  can be rather gruesome if you're sensitive to sexual violence.
[15:17.130 --> 15:18.390]  So, that's my trigger warning.
[15:20.370 --> 15:30.190]  So, a non-profit, a London-based non-profit by the name of Korea Future Initiative, released a study called Sex Flaves.
[15:30.290 --> 15:39.430]  And it studies the prostitution that North Korean defectors find themselves in when they exit North Korea and get stuck in China.
[15:39.630 --> 15:41.590]  So, these aren't all North Koreans, right?
[15:41.890 --> 15:44.350]  This is just the North Koreans that get stuck in China.
[15:45.190 --> 16:02.030]  And what they found, shockingly, sadly, an estimated 60% of females who leave North Korea, who stay in China again, end up in the sex trade.
[16:02.210 --> 16:09.970]  So, it's a large number, especially considering that 80% of people who leave North Korea are females.
[16:11.390 --> 16:16.030]  And they're ending up in the sex trade, but there is a silver lining here.
[16:16.670 --> 16:24.170]  The silver lining for me is that a small percent, 15% of them, are ending up...
[16:24.170 --> 16:26.950]  Okay, so, maybe I phrased that wrong.
[16:27.230 --> 16:30.410]  This is not a silver lining that they're ending up in cybersex.
[16:30.410 --> 16:44.870]  But what the silver lining is, is that when they end up in that form of prostitution, sadly, they do have access to smartphones, computers, webcams.
[16:44.990 --> 16:46.530]  They have access to high-speed Internet.
[16:46.550 --> 16:49.190]  They have access to online money.
[16:49.910 --> 16:52.750]  This is a detail that's been overlooked.
[16:52.750 --> 16:54.430]  I think it's because it's sensitive.
[16:54.650 --> 16:56.510]  No one really wants to touch this.
[16:56.710 --> 16:58.190]  And I understand.
[16:58.270 --> 17:02.550]  But I see it as a huge opportunity to approach these people.
[17:02.730 --> 17:03.750]  We know where they are.
[17:03.910 --> 17:07.210]  We know that we can contact them through the Internet.
[17:07.870 --> 17:12.190]  And hopefully we can give them information that'll help their situation.
[17:12.190 --> 17:16.570]  And we can even potentially send them money and help them get out.
[17:16.570 --> 17:23.950]  And we know, just from hearing defector stories, that when these people make it out of China, they don't just leave and abandon their families.
[17:24.110 --> 17:24.750]  They go back.
[17:24.770 --> 17:25.950]  They send money back.
[17:26.050 --> 17:27.470]  And they get more people out.
[17:27.470 --> 17:29.890]  And they help their families in North Korea.
[17:30.010 --> 17:32.110]  So I think this could be a huge opportunity.
[17:32.610 --> 17:34.030]  There's another opportunity.
[17:35.790 --> 17:37.570]  The overseas laborers.
[17:38.150 --> 17:40.450]  So North Korea sends people overseas.
[17:42.730 --> 17:44.890]  They've got people in Russia.
[17:44.890 --> 17:46.770]  They've got people in Mongolia.
[17:46.950 --> 17:48.030]  They've got people in China.
[17:48.850 --> 17:52.990]  These people, they're working for basically slave wages.
[17:53.230 --> 17:56.730]  I mean, they're already working for slave wages by being in North Korea.
[17:56.930 --> 18:04.090]  But North Korea takes a 70% cut of everything that they make when they send them abroad.
[18:04.910 --> 18:09.050]  And they usually send all the rest of the money that they make back home.
[18:10.330 --> 18:12.630]  But this is another opportunity.
[18:13.890 --> 18:23.130]  That digital hostages study found that a common occurrence is that these overseas laborers have access to the Internet.
[18:24.990 --> 18:27.490]  I'll summarize again some of these quotes.
[18:28.530 --> 18:32.150]  So the first guy knew that the Internet was banned.
[18:32.270 --> 18:34.830]  So they don't want you to have access to the Internet, right?
[18:34.930 --> 18:36.670]  So they say, we're going to send you overseas.
[18:37.870 --> 18:39.910]  Definitely 100% don't use the Internet.
[18:41.590 --> 18:45.110]  However, the first guy was able to get on YouTube.
[18:45.610 --> 18:49.630]  The second guy watched a whole bunch of South Korean TV dramas.
[18:51.050 --> 18:57.570]  Even purchased himself a SIM card with unlimited access and use the Internet every day, right?
[18:57.810 --> 19:08.550]  So there is hope that we can send information via the Internet through to North Korean defectors or potential North Korean defectors.
[19:10.190 --> 19:22.930]  My question, I guess, just to sort of drum up thought, because I, again, I'm here so that you guys can sort of get some ideas of how you might help if you feel so called to do so.
[19:23.210 --> 19:26.250]  My question is, can we use marketing tech to target these North Koreans?
[19:27.330 --> 19:34.030]  We know, we all know, and here in the Western world, that as soon as you say blueberries, you'll get an ad for blueberries.
[19:35.650 --> 19:43.190]  And could we possibly use this type of marketing technology to find North Koreans?
[19:45.210 --> 19:48.470]  I don't know the answer to that, but I think research needs to be done.
[19:50.690 --> 19:53.010]  OK, the second thing, cell phones.
[19:54.650 --> 19:56.490]  North Korea has a lot of cell phones.
[19:56.930 --> 20:03.250]  It may be hard to believe that such a locked down state would even have cell phones at all.
[20:03.490 --> 20:10.930]  But what we're seeing, Martin Williams is a researcher of North Korean technology at the Stimson Center.
[20:14.510 --> 20:21.310]  What we're seeing is about 50% of the adult population has a smartphone of some sort.
[20:22.470 --> 20:25.950]  And this includes the rural people in rural areas.
[20:26.110 --> 20:26.970]  This isn't just Pyongyang.
[20:27.630 --> 20:29.430]  A lot of people have smartphones.
[20:30.290 --> 20:36.230]  I think the number in 2013 was 7 million or something like this.
[20:36.230 --> 20:40.490]  So this is a widespread mode of communication in North Korea.
[20:42.650 --> 20:44.550]  There's broad cell coverage.
[20:44.770 --> 20:49.790]  So we see, yeah, there's a little bit of cell coverage missing in the rural areas there in the middle.
[20:50.430 --> 20:52.010]  Pyongyang has cell coverage.
[20:52.450 --> 20:54.390]  The borders have cell coverage.
[20:56.170 --> 21:00.290]  So hypothetically, we could reach out via cell phones.
[21:00.590 --> 21:03.510]  You know, we could send some sort of apps or something.
[21:05.910 --> 21:13.630]  Some sort of encrypted apps so that way we can message them without the government having access to what we're doing.
[21:15.090 --> 21:18.550]  And here's the most recent cell phone.
[21:18.670 --> 21:19.710]  It's called the Pyongyang 2425.
[21:21.250 --> 21:26.670]  It is operating Android 4.4.2, I believe.
[21:28.090 --> 21:29.990]  And so it's rather modern.
[21:31.090 --> 21:33.190]  There's a lot you can do with it, certainly.
[21:33.630 --> 21:34.890]  There's apps that you can put on it.
[21:34.890 --> 21:36.030]  It can transfer.
[21:36.250 --> 21:40.670]  It's got Bluetooth, Wi-Fi, everything you can imagine.
[21:40.830 --> 21:41.890]  It's an Android phone, right?
[21:43.990 --> 21:56.730]  But the difficulty is in how much North Korean the regime has attempted to force people to not be able to share information through the cell phone.
[21:57.050 --> 22:03.830]  So I'm going to lay out a couple of ways in which it's almost impossible to do anything unsanctioned with these cell phones.
[22:03.830 --> 22:07.430]  First of all, the operating system comes with whitelisted apps.
[22:07.550 --> 22:12.950]  So you can't actually sideload an app onto this phone unless it's being whitelisted.
[22:13.470 --> 22:15.930]  At least you can't sideload it officially, right?
[22:17.410 --> 22:20.250]  Second of all, they don't have a digital app store.
[22:20.370 --> 22:21.790]  They have a physical app store.
[22:21.930 --> 22:23.090]  This is the place you go.
[22:24.110 --> 22:26.530]  This is the place you go to put apps on your phone.
[22:26.670 --> 22:27.970]  They also sell ice cream.
[22:29.570 --> 22:33.450]  So it's like two things you'll definitely never encounter in North Korea.
[22:33.450 --> 22:35.210]  All in the same place.
[22:36.050 --> 22:37.050]  That's great.
[22:37.690 --> 22:43.630]  So they also use a signature system.
[22:43.910 --> 22:46.010]  A two-fold signature system.
[22:46.970 --> 22:48.610]  So it's self-signed.
[22:48.910 --> 22:57.470]  So the Android operating system that they've cloned and made their own signs everything that is produced from the phone.
[22:57.470 --> 23:05.230]  So every picture, every saved text message, all of the files that are on the phone and made on the phone are self-signed.
[23:05.230 --> 23:15.230]  If you try to send a piece of information from one phone to another via SMS, via Bluetooth, via...
[23:16.090 --> 23:18.970]  Yeah, so SMS or Bluetooth, let's say, via USB.
[23:19.350 --> 23:26.370]  If you try to put anything on this phone that is not self-signed, it will reject that file.
[23:26.370 --> 23:29.870]  It's also... there's also a national signing system.
[23:30.030 --> 23:35.290]  So the government encrypts certain files, sends them out.
[23:35.450 --> 23:45.170]  So for example, news articles, pictures of Kim Jong-un, things that they want on your phone or things that you might even benefit from being on your phone.
[23:45.170 --> 23:47.950]  Like I said, they do have online education and things like that.
[23:48.050 --> 23:52.350]  So maybe homework and things like that might be nationally signed.
[23:52.950 --> 24:03.650]  Between these two things and whitelisted apps, it really is difficult to side load apps or get anything that's unsanctioned onto a North Korean cell phone.
[24:04.030 --> 24:05.170]  But there's more.
[24:06.110 --> 24:20.930]  They have, since 2017, they've disabled the USB port because they saw people side loading things and connecting the Android device to their cell phone, rooting it, you know, jailbreaking it and things like that.
[24:23.230 --> 24:29.390]  So now, the more modern phones have disabled USB ports.
[24:31.310 --> 24:32.270]  There's more.
[24:32.270 --> 24:36.370]  They watermark the files that you generate and pass around.
[24:36.690 --> 24:44.710]  So every time the file is opened or every time the file is passed to another user and they open it, it's watermarked.
[24:44.790 --> 24:50.590]  So you have a log of who opened it, at what time they open it, and which device opens it.
[24:53.110 --> 24:54.190]  And there's more.
[24:54.590 --> 24:58.090]  So there's this thing called red flag in tracer view.
[24:58.090 --> 25:03.290]  Red flag takes a picture of your cell phone at randomized intervals.
[25:03.750 --> 25:05.990]  So that way you can see...
[25:05.990 --> 25:09.630]  The authorities can see what you've been doing at randomized intervals.
[25:09.890 --> 25:12.310]  And tracer view is the application that's on your phone.
[25:12.470 --> 25:20.090]  It's non-removable application that they use to view these screenshots.
[25:20.090 --> 25:24.370]  And here's kind of what a log from the tracer view app.
[25:24.470 --> 25:25.650]  This is literally tracer view.
[25:25.810 --> 25:30.350]  So the log from the tracer view just saves pictures and your storage and...
[25:30.350 --> 25:33.930]  of what you've been doing on your phone.
[25:33.930 --> 25:34.110]  Okay.
[25:34.830 --> 25:34.970]  Cool.
[25:35.990 --> 25:36.790]  All right.
[25:37.830 --> 25:48.730]  So trying to use a North Korean phone in order to get information into North Korea is very, very difficult.
[25:49.050 --> 25:50.770]  Not impossible, very difficult.
[25:51.450 --> 25:53.430]  But what about a Chinese phone?
[25:54.070 --> 25:54.570]  This...
[25:54.570 --> 25:58.230]  This is the method that most people are using, these organizations.
[25:58.230 --> 26:05.850]  What they're doing is that they're disseminating cheap Chinese cell phones into the North Korean black market.
[26:07.730 --> 26:08.790]  It's effective.
[26:11.410 --> 26:15.270]  These Chinese cell phones, they do work with SIM cards.
[26:15.590 --> 26:19.890]  But the flaws here is that you have to be next to the border in order to use them.
[26:20.470 --> 26:31.210]  And North Korea has started implementing like radio wave jammers on the border that block all Chinese cell, like radio signals.
[26:31.450 --> 26:35.550]  And so you can't exactly use the phone on the border.
[26:36.930 --> 26:41.410]  But there are situations where you can use the phone to make calls, to make text messages.
[26:41.790 --> 26:44.170]  Like you can find little pockets where it's not jammed.
[26:44.370 --> 26:50.330]  You can also use Chinese phones to transfer files without having to deal with the national or self-signed system.
[26:50.810 --> 26:53.350]  There's no tracer view on Chinese phones.
[26:53.350 --> 26:57.590]  So this is one way that people are getting around the cell phone issue.
[26:59.770 --> 27:00.890]  But there is hope.
[27:00.970 --> 27:01.190]  Okay.
[27:01.450 --> 27:03.150]  So there's hope amongst the hackers.
[27:03.410 --> 27:06.330]  There is a small hacking community in North Korea.
[27:09.090 --> 27:11.690]  I think that it can be a lot bigger.
[27:12.090 --> 27:13.530]  It's very, very small.
[27:13.530 --> 27:24.850]  It's basically people who were selected to take computer science classes or studied abroad and then became disillusioned, came back to North Korea.
[27:25.050 --> 27:31.390]  It's still in North Korea and just deciding to operate within the system and help other people out.
[27:31.390 --> 27:35.590]  What we see, an interview from Wired Magazine.
[27:35.590 --> 27:45.390]  They actually did an interview of a lot of North Korean defectors who talked about their hacking experience when they were in Korea.
[27:46.010 --> 27:54.130]  What we see is, okay, so there's a USB cable installed jailbreak toolkit, which kind of alludes to they're using old versions of phones.
[27:55.330 --> 27:59.930]  They're probably getting these old versions of phones on the black market because they're not officially sold anymore.
[28:01.250 --> 28:03.070]  There are software vulnerabilities.
[28:03.070 --> 28:10.250]  For example, there are locations inside of Android that TracerView is not looking at for whatever reason.
[28:10.430 --> 28:17.650]  And they're using these locations to, yeah, I guess, exploit the phone in some way.
[28:19.030 --> 28:24.670]  And I highlighted abroad in China because this kind of goes back to the diaspora point.
[28:25.110 --> 28:33.730]  Can we communicate to these people who are no longer in North Korea, but have communication to people who are in North Korea?
[28:34.190 --> 28:36.590]  Can we send them more tools?
[28:36.810 --> 28:38.410]  You guys are... I'm not a hacker.
[28:38.650 --> 28:40.850]  I'm just a software engineer, so I don't...
[28:40.850 --> 28:49.270]  I mean, like, I could probably, like, jailbreak a phone or whatever, but I'm not the one that can answer this question, really.
[28:50.490 --> 28:57.050]  I just hope that you guys get involved because they want to... they need help.
[29:00.330 --> 29:02.830]  Anyways, that brings us back to balloons.
[29:06.650 --> 29:12.770]  Now, balloons... see, the thing is, they're wildly, wildly ineffective.
[29:13.050 --> 29:21.050]  So we're seeing something like, I believe the statistic is 40% of balloons actually make it into North Korea.
[29:21.170 --> 29:23.130]  40% of all balloons make it into North Korea.
[29:24.030 --> 29:28.790]  15% of leaflets that drop off of those balloons make it onto North Korean soil.
[29:28.790 --> 29:40.310]  So the efficacy is small, but this is one of the best ways of getting information into North Korea because almost 100% of North Koreans have this device.
[29:40.490 --> 29:41.310]  It's called a nodal.
[29:41.710 --> 29:46.810]  It's a really cheap Chinese DVD player.
[29:47.150 --> 29:49.150]  It also has a USB port.
[29:50.030 --> 29:52.610]  These are really old, but they're effective.
[29:52.930 --> 29:53.790]  They work.
[29:53.790 --> 29:55.510]  They're not connected to the Internet.
[29:55.510 --> 29:58.050]  So they're... you don't have to deal with surveillance.
[29:58.510 --> 30:02.510]  They're not connected... they basically have only firmware.
[30:02.830 --> 30:06.270]  So you don't have to deal with tracer view or anything like that.
[30:06.650 --> 30:09.570]  You can just watch your movies in peace.
[30:10.130 --> 30:15.970]  And so this is the primary method of how North Koreans are consuming information.
[30:15.970 --> 30:27.070]  And to... to feed this desire for using these nodals, South Koreans are sending USB drives, DVDs, CDs.
[30:27.930 --> 30:36.910]  Anything that works with this player, they're sending them via... via balloons into North Korea.
[30:39.310 --> 30:48.830]  Recently, we've seen... small activist groups get a little upgrade to what they're using to send information into North Korea.
[30:49.630 --> 30:53.050]  So this is a... an activist group's balloon.
[30:53.050 --> 30:56.630]  It is a... balloon with 3D printed material.
[30:56.910 --> 30:58.590]  And then there's a speaker at the box.
[30:58.950 --> 31:01.970]  So what they're doing is they're flying the balloon over North Korea.
[31:01.970 --> 31:09.950]  The speaker is playing at very specific locations, playing propaganda made for those specific locations.
[31:09.950 --> 31:15.430]  So if it's over Pyongyang, then maybe they're talking about the ruler or...
[31:16.670 --> 31:20.410]  you know, spreading some information relevant to people in the ruling class.
[31:20.410 --> 31:24.510]  If it's over the rural areas, then they're spreading information relevant to...
[31:26.410 --> 31:32.170]  maybe some... way that they can be more educated about... just their day-to-day lives.
[31:34.690 --> 31:44.370]  We're also seeing these... leaflet... it's a time-release leaflet... device, I guess.
[31:45.470 --> 31:49.770]  And so what these do is that they attach them to the balloons and the balloons...
[31:49.770 --> 31:51.290]  Of course, they're going over Pyongyang.
[31:51.290 --> 31:57.210]  These have GPS on them, so we know where they are and when they need to release.
[31:57.410 --> 32:02.250]  And once they get to their target location, they're dropping material there.
[32:03.230 --> 32:11.710]  The thing about these balloons that this hacker group is now making...
[32:11.710 --> 32:14.530]  is that they cost each one of them $1,000.
[32:14.530 --> 32:20.210]  So they can't actually send that many balloons using these methods, which are...
[32:21.190 --> 32:25.330]  definitely better than just sending a raw dog balloon into North Korea.
[32:26.190 --> 32:30.570]  The people using these methods are paying $1,000 per balloon.
[32:32.350 --> 32:41.510]  And I guess so, my sort of hope there is that maybe some of us in here can get that number down.
[32:41.850 --> 32:43.150]  I don't know if you guys are familiar.
[32:44.490 --> 32:55.110]  Judging by the fact that I got a little device that I was expected to put together, I think most people here are pretty industrious with things, probably are familiar with sites like Adafruit.
[32:55.370 --> 33:01.390]  They have circuitry items and things for tinkerers.
[33:01.530 --> 33:09.050]  And they have a GPS unit that costs $89, much cheaper than $1,000.
[33:09.730 --> 33:18.090]  I highly doubt that North Koreans have, or rather South Korean activist groups have access to this or are aware of this.
[33:18.190 --> 33:21.550]  Like I said, there's no engineers doing this stuff.
[33:21.670 --> 33:26.870]  These people learn by tutorials online and they have no idea that sites like...
[33:26.870 --> 33:29.810]  or most of them have no idea that sites like this exist.
[33:32.430 --> 33:33.650]  So there's that.
[33:34.450 --> 33:40.830]  Also, the CIA wrote the handbook on dispersing balloons, dispersing leaflets via balloons rather.
[33:42.010 --> 33:46.350]  Of course, it's all in English, so your average Korean is not going to be able to read it.
[33:47.590 --> 33:54.990]  But that being said, somebody, perhaps me, perhaps one of you could easily step in, compile some of the knowledge in it.
[33:55.050 --> 33:56.890]  For example, there's this graph.
[33:56.890 --> 34:06.490]  And this is a 153-page document released in 1959 about...
[34:06.490 --> 34:11.890]  I think they were dispersing balloon leaflets over Soviet Russia at the time.
[34:12.630 --> 34:23.330]  And so there's information here about the point of dropping the leaflet and where it'll land and how to calculate that.
[34:23.330 --> 34:27.910]  I think we can get the 15% rate up a little bit higher.
[34:29.450 --> 34:31.630]  So I think there's a little hope there.
[34:31.870 --> 34:38.050]  I just want to revisit this to show how ineffective these balloons are.
[34:38.270 --> 34:39.590]  But they could be so much better.
[34:39.790 --> 34:45.710]  So my question is, can we make cheaper, smarter balloons?
[34:45.710 --> 34:47.330]  I think we can.
[34:47.670 --> 34:49.250]  I think there's work to be done.
[34:50.790 --> 34:54.170]  And that's pretty much all I got for you.
[34:54.430 --> 34:56.650]  I do have a page of resources.
[34:56.650 --> 35:05.610]  If anyone was moved in any way to learn more about what North Koreans are doing, or to get resources to start your own project.
[35:06.310 --> 35:12.310]  For example, NetFreedom Pioneers has an incubator where they're looking for ideas.
[35:14.910 --> 35:17.450]  Sarpon wants to get information into North Korea.
[35:18.190 --> 35:20.770]  Jill Meg, she wants to get information into North Korea.
[35:20.770 --> 35:25.250]  Gio이 month, she has an entire organization dedicated to the information that wants to discover.
[35:25.790 --> 35:28.470]  She also includes the news.
[35:28.710 --> 35:31.750]  She might have this whole company.payors.
[35:34.150 --> 35:39.410]  In 40 years.
[35:39.410 --> 35:41.030]  Nick Roy is a hacker.
[35:41.430 --> 35:50.070]  I don't know if you've heard it, but in the past couple of months it was discovered that North Korea is doing work for an automation studio.
[35:51.190 --> 35:59.490]  Nick Roy was the first thing that discovered how several super masterminds are doing this.
[36:00.230 --> 36:01.890]  They hire him to see if he knows anything.
[36:04.870 --> 36:07.410]  A firm that does research all of this.
[36:07.490 --> 36:09.070]  This is where you're from the NPM.
[36:09.790 --> 36:13.250]  Martin Gates works in the law of research.
[36:13.910 --> 36:17.170]  It's true that he has a lot of research.
[36:17.790 --> 36:19.230]  He will not rob a story.
[36:19.490 --> 36:20.050]  No, he's so good.
[36:22.350 --> 36:24.190]  He breaks every story on him.
[36:25.210 --> 36:27.130]  He's very approachable.
[36:27.430 --> 36:31.090]  So, these are some people and some resources like this one to be.
[36:31.090 --> 36:32.370]  Still on the wristroll rate.
[36:33.130 --> 36:35.590]  I forgot to see Luke Bush out there.
[36:37.370 --> 36:39.070]  I need .
[36:39.070 --> 36:41.990]  The Vernon Jackson's a military on the back of my view.
[36:42.610 --> 36:43.210]  It's old one.
[36:43.990 --> 36:44.230]  Here.
[36:46.590 --> 36:47.730]  Ourshcribe on me, John.
[36:48.070 --> 36:49.230]  I've got a cheap.
[36:54.070 --> 36:54.630]  Quarter.
[36:56.530 --> 36:57.790]  It's not bad shit.
[37:08.350 --> 37:27.390]  This isn't the one that exactly... So this part, this sort of leaflet dispersing thing, in combination with the GPS tracking system, this organization, they have a weird long name.
[37:28.310 --> 37:29.050]  That's strange.
[37:29.270 --> 37:40.050]  But anyways, an underground organization, yeah, they're claiming that making these things and putting GPS on them and the whole process is costing them a thousand dollars for a balloon.
[37:43.130 --> 37:44.190]  I don't know why.
[37:50.420 --> 38:00.120]  I think it's just because they're not engineers and they're probably buying GPSs from some third-party company that's ripping them off and they're probably putting these things together.
[38:01.820 --> 38:04.700]  Or maybe they're even outsourcing the labor or something like that.
[38:04.800 --> 38:06.320]  I don't know why it's costing a thousand dollars.
[38:06.940 --> 38:07.840]  What about drones?
[38:08.020 --> 38:10.260]  I was hoping to hear something about drones.
[38:10.260 --> 38:12.220]  Are there people using drones at all?
[38:12.360 --> 38:16.060]  Okay, so there is a group, there's like one group that uses drones.
[38:17.380 --> 38:19.080]  It's not that effective though.
[38:19.560 --> 38:20.580]  They just shoot down a million.
[38:21.480 --> 38:24.120]  So the drones are getting shot now?
[38:29.300 --> 38:32.520]  I mean, these people, they don't have a lot of money, right?
[38:32.660 --> 38:37.120]  So they're not getting like military-grade stealth quadcopters.
[38:37.300 --> 38:44.040]  They're just getting like DJI drones and putting these things on them and they're getting shot out of the guy.
[38:49.440 --> 38:51.140]  Hi, thanks so much for the talk.
[38:52.100 --> 38:58.800]  I'm wondering if there's anything that you can share about anything you've learned about funding for eScore.
[38:59.800 --> 39:03.160]  The NPO, you mentioned that produced the did for hostages report.
[39:03.500 --> 39:05.900]  Because it's not an organization I'd run into before.
[39:06.060 --> 39:07.280]  I was trying to research it.
[39:07.600 --> 39:09.520]  Well, this means the second half of your talk.
[39:09.680 --> 39:13.080]  And I guess in general, I'm just concerned about the...
[39:13.080 --> 39:19.000]  You know, obviously, it's information gathering is a difficult process in the best of circumstances.
[39:19.540 --> 39:33.760]  But a significant amount of this information seems to come from North Koreans in South Korea, where there are strict legal prohibitions without saying anything in praise of the North Korean government.
[39:33.760 --> 39:42.740]  You know, people have done long prison sentences and very minor acts of, you know, support of the leadership, support of the politics.
[39:43.400 --> 39:51.440]  So I'm just wondering if you happen to know anything about the background of that organization, what its kind of political affiliations might be.
[39:52.540 --> 39:56.720]  I don't know anything about the funding of Peace Corps specifically.
[39:57.080 --> 40:05.600]  I do know, for example, there are other big NGOs that operate in a similar capacity.
[40:05.760 --> 40:09.280]  For example, Unification Media Group, UMG.
[40:09.600 --> 40:15.380]  I know that they're getting funded for NED, the National Endowment for Democracy.
[40:15.380 --> 40:26.340]  And I know... I did all this research because when having these conversations, you know, it gets a little...
[40:28.120 --> 40:35.260]  It gets a little confusing because you don't exactly know who's working for who and...
[40:35.260 --> 40:38.700]  Yeah, like you said, like where the money is coming from and what the intention is.
[40:38.700 --> 40:42.320]  All these partners are, UMG.
[40:42.320 --> 40:45.120]  So I am wondering that a good mate...
[40:45.120 --> 40:47.440]  I could, Linford.
[40:47.860 --> 40:48.640]  He's a journalist.
[40:49.980 --> 40:51.140]  Do you know...
[40:52.240 --> 40:53.360]  Max Gideborg.
[40:53.620 --> 40:55.920]  He did a hit piece on the National Endowment.
[40:56.360 --> 40:56.920]  I guess it was.
[40:57.080 --> 40:59.660]  Um, for the man who stays here, it's your home manager.
[41:00.420 --> 41:01.360]  That's my one.
[41:01.740 --> 41:02.460]  That's my one.
[41:02.680 --> 41:02.960]  That's my one.
[41:03.000 --> 41:03.600]  That's my one.
[41:03.980 --> 41:07.820]  That's my one.
[41:07.820 --> 41:09.200]  Yeah, it's...
[41:09.900 --> 41:11.060]  We don't know if it's here.
[41:11.620 --> 41:14.320]  So anyways, it does get a little hairy.
[41:15.340 --> 41:19.380]  I'm bringing up the NED because they find a lot of good workers.
[41:19.700 --> 41:21.060]  And you might be surprised they're...
[41:22.360 --> 41:23.640]  ...or, like, dead money.
[41:23.780 --> 41:25.560]  But I can send it to the National Endowment.
[41:27.380 --> 41:27.840]  Okay.
[41:28.340 --> 41:29.200]  I'm just taking a question.
[41:29.200 --> 41:32.740]  So why aren't the movements getting shot down?
[41:33.400 --> 41:33.820]  That is...
[41:33.820 --> 41:35.040]  Can we use the answer to that question?
[41:35.040 --> 41:35.980]  I should have a dash down.
[41:36.120 --> 41:36.620]  We got five minutes.
[41:36.800 --> 41:38.240]  What's the biggest thing going on?
[41:39.560 --> 41:40.440]  What is that point?
[41:41.120 --> 41:42.280]  Why aren't the movements getting shot down?
[41:42.280 --> 41:42.940]  Close that.
[41:43.080 --> 41:44.700]  So, Ranish is another question.
[41:45.460 --> 41:46.500]  I mean, I guess...
[41:46.500 --> 41:47.000]  He's like...
[41:47.000 --> 41:47.080]  He's like...
[41:48.880 --> 41:49.680]  He's like...
[41:49.680 --> 41:50.120]  Okay.
[41:53.120 --> 41:54.700]  Okay, this guy moves.
[41:57.460 --> 41:57.980]  Drag.
[41:58.720 --> 41:59.300]  Hiring.
[41:59.300 --> 41:59.320]  Hiring.
[42:00.880 --> 42:01.020]  Cool.
[42:02.860 --> 42:03.960]  Don't click on this.
[42:04.220 --> 42:04.880]  You haven't...
[42:04.880 --> 42:04.980]  Right.
[42:05.140 --> 42:05.520]  That's true.
[42:07.300 --> 42:08.420]  That's really quiet.
[42:09.500 --> 42:10.080]  That's...
[42:13.960 --> 42:18.000]  So, just so everybody hears and people online...
[42:18.540 --> 42:20.020]  This gentleman said...
[42:20.800 --> 42:22.800]  He believes, and this sounds...
[42:23.450 --> 42:24.140]  Sounds like...
[42:24.140 --> 42:25.280]  Sounds about right.
[42:25.540 --> 42:28.140]  That the balloons go up higher than the drones.
[42:28.140 --> 42:31.980]  So, the drones are kind of within shooting distance, and the balloons seem to go up a lot higher.
[42:33.980 --> 42:35.000]  That's a good question, though.
[42:35.220 --> 42:38.260]  I mean, I was just gonna make up some answer on the spot, but I honestly...
[42:38.260 --> 42:41.040]  I mean, I honestly don't know, but that sounds like...
[42:41.040 --> 42:43.100]  Sounds like something I should look into, actually.
[42:43.380 --> 42:44.140]  That's a good point.
[42:46.020 --> 42:46.500]  That's a good point.
[42:46.500 --> 42:46.660]  Thank you.
[42:47.360 --> 42:47.720]  I have a
[42:51.580 --> 42:51.840]  radar.
[42:52.300 --> 42:52.780]  Okay.
[42:53.220 --> 42:54.740]  That's a really good point.
[42:58.070 --> 43:04.850]  For those online, a gentleman in the back said they also, according to his friend, they don't come up on radar.
[43:07.150 --> 43:09.490]  Hey, so, a couple questions.
[43:10.630 --> 43:13.850]  First, this seems like something that could be good to crowdsource.
[43:14.670 --> 43:19.830]  I mean, I know there's probably upset concerns about, like, what are the particular designs that people are coming up with?
[43:19.830 --> 43:32.470]  But it seems like the community could have a lot of wisdom as to, like, how to bring that $1,000 figure down, and it'd be a cool, you know, idea for a collective project, or maybe something even that we work on here one year.
[43:32.470 --> 43:47.250]  And then I'm just also wondering, this is probably something we have no data on, but I'm just wondering, there's probably some pretty strict retribution for, you know, if you're a North Korean citizen, you're reading these kinds of leaflets.
[43:47.450 --> 43:57.750]  So, do we have any idea, like, what's, how common that retribution is, or whether those leaflets are, like, successfully being read, or is that something that we just never know?
[43:58.910 --> 44:01.010]  When you say retribution, you mean, like, punishment?
[44:01.010 --> 44:03.590]  Yeah, just any sort, any sort of punishment.
[44:05.510 --> 44:12.430]  Off the top of my head, I know that they are, that people do get punished, you get punished for picking them up, for sure.
[44:12.650 --> 44:15.250]  If you get caught with a leaflet, you're going to get punished.
[44:15.530 --> 44:27.930]  I don't know how severe the punishment is off the top of my head, but just going in line with that thought, the anti-reactionary thought law, it's likely to be, I mean, a stint.
[44:27.930 --> 44:33.490]  I mean, of course, the government is, it's, what's the word?
[44:33.670 --> 44:34.030]  Corrupt.
[44:34.550 --> 44:35.570]  The government's corrupt, right?
[44:35.690 --> 44:39.450]  So you could probably bribe your way out of it, or maybe if you know somebody or something.
[44:40.830 --> 44:47.430]  But you can't, I'm sure, with that thought crime law, you can't get in trouble for picking them up.
[44:47.650 --> 44:49.830]  How often it happens, I don't know.
[44:49.830 --> 44:56.250]  I know that it is common amongst defectors to have seen these leaflets.
[44:56.570 --> 45:01.910]  But by and large, people aren't, their opinions aren't changed because of the leaflets.
[45:02.190 --> 45:08.450]  If they pick up the leaflet and they read it, they likely already held an opinion, or at least this is what the defectors are saying.
[45:08.650 --> 45:12.530]  They already held an opinion, they looked at the leaflet and was like, yeah, that sounds right.
[45:12.530 --> 45:14.150]  Okay, that makes sense.
[45:14.290 --> 45:19.890]  Because yeah, the fact that they were actually codifying that into law is probably a good sign.
[45:20.110 --> 45:24.370]  It means that they're aggravated about it, so it must be doing something, but yeah.
[45:24.670 --> 45:27.330]  Speaking of aggravated about it, did you hear about the poop balloons?
[45:27.790 --> 45:28.630]  I did, yeah.
[45:28.870 --> 45:30.170]  Oh, they're aggravated about it.
[45:30.510 --> 45:30.690]  They are.
[45:30.930 --> 45:31.350]  Explain.
[45:31.350 --> 45:31.570]  Explain.
[45:32.030 --> 45:32.290]  Okay.
[45:34.590 --> 45:42.830]  North Korea sent about 2,500, estimated 2,500 to 5,000 balloons over the border to South Korea.
[45:43.350 --> 45:48.490]  And they, okay, so it's kind of a, poop balloons is a misnomer.
[45:48.730 --> 45:53.110]  But what we do know is that they were filled with parasites that come from animal feces.
[45:55.750 --> 45:59.670]  So, it's believed that there was feces in the balloons.
[45:59.670 --> 46:01.970]  We know it's trash, there were trash in the balloons.
[46:02.530 --> 46:07.230]  An interesting fact is there were also jeans in the balloons, which is something illegal in North Korea.
[46:07.690 --> 46:11.090]  And there were ripped pictures of Kim Jong-un in the balloon.
[46:11.370 --> 46:15.590]  So, I don't, we, they don't even know how to take that.
[46:15.730 --> 46:18.110]  Like these research, researchers don't know what to make of that.
[46:19.150 --> 46:20.010]  But anyway, it's fun.
[46:20.130 --> 46:20.230]  Sorry.
[46:23.770 --> 46:24.390]  Yes, sir.
[46:24.690 --> 46:31.590]  I had a question in regards to the, like different methods by which they're trying to cut down on that $1,000 problem.
[46:31.590 --> 46:32.490]  price tag of balloons.
[46:32.730 --> 46:37.450]  Like you showed that Adafruit posting, but there's, I know a ton of open-source options.
[46:37.570 --> 46:40.410]  I'm bringing GPS locators even further below down.
[46:40.550 --> 46:44.190]  So, I wanted to know which particular organizations are sending these balloons.
[46:44.330 --> 46:48.350]  Like how do, if we have an idea, we have a possible like product sample.
[46:48.490 --> 46:51.270]  How do we get in touch with the specific people sending in those balloons?
[46:51.270 --> 46:52.070]  Okay.
[46:52.350 --> 46:57.090]  So, uh, man, the Academy, I'm going to talk to you afterwards and tell you the exact name.
[46:57.290 --> 47:01.130]  They have a really weird long name and they won't reveal their identity.
[47:01.130 --> 47:10.270]  So they've been on a press tour in the last couple of months because in response to the North Korean balloons, they, they were like, no dude, we're sending a bunch of balloons now.
[47:10.430 --> 47:12.350]  Like, so they've been activated in the last month.
[47:12.350 --> 47:19.070]  And so now there's a lot of, um, news organizations that are interviewing them, but they refuse to reveal their actual identity.
[47:19.430 --> 47:21.450]  So I don't know how to get in touch with them.
[47:21.630 --> 47:29.610]  I could probably get in touch with them through some of these researchers that might know, but I don't know personally how to get in touch with them.
[47:29.950 --> 47:38.170]  Um, but that's exactly why I'm telling you about these things is because I'm sure you probably know thousands of ways to get this number down.
[47:38.450 --> 47:41.130]  Um, and I think that's really, really good.
[47:41.130 --> 47:42.190]  You should pursue it.
[47:42.770 --> 47:44.940]  Thank you.
[47:45.220 --> 47:45.660]  You're welcome.
[47:46.560 --> 47:47.200]  Thank you.
[47:47.340 --> 47:47.560]  Okay.
[47:48.320 --> 47:49.700]  Let's look, I guess this is the last one.
[47:49.960 --> 47:50.160]  Amen.
[47:50.520 --> 47:52.300]  Uh, thank you very much for your talk.
[47:52.400 --> 47:53.360]  It was a wonderful talk.
[47:53.620 --> 47:54.000]  Thank you.
[47:54.120 --> 47:55.520]  Uh, I have a question.
[47:55.700 --> 48:04.620]  It's a geopolitical question because China is up there and North Korea is really like a big plug of information.
[48:04.620 --> 48:10.820]  So the Western information cannot make it to China because they're caught with the Himalaya on India side.
[48:10.820 --> 48:13.580]  There is that big empty space.
[48:13.760 --> 48:16.140]  And then you have Mongolia on top with Russia.
[48:16.560 --> 48:24.500]  So the only space if North Korea were to fall, suddenly the West has a thousand of miles of open border.
[48:24.860 --> 48:28.020]  It used to be Macau and Hong Kong, which was very small.
[48:28.020 --> 48:35.240]  So what is the Chinese, all these activists that are trying to get that out there and you're trying to figure out a technical solution.
[48:36.160 --> 48:47.360]  How can you figure out what the Chinese, will the Chinese allow North Korea to disappear and to have the North Korean people kind of rise up against North Korea?
[48:47.360 --> 48:49.100]  Because that's what basically they're trying to do.
[48:50.660 --> 48:57.180]  So, can, what technological thing we can do as hackers to make this cheaper?
[48:57.420 --> 49:04.280]  But will it make it cheaper, would China come back and say, well guys, you're getting too effective here?
[49:04.380 --> 49:07.040]  Because the problem with hackers is we saw it with Bitcoin.
[49:07.040 --> 49:12.840]  We came up with the stupid thing for cashless and suddenly everybody came down on Bitcoin like hell.
[49:13.120 --> 49:25.980]  And so could the same thing happen for those activists if we get so active that we make that thing for 10 bucks and suddenly what is the next step to that question?
[49:26.160 --> 49:32.420]  Okay, so that's a, I mean that, yeah, I am not the politics guy.
[49:32.420 --> 49:40.140]  But if I had to guess, which I probably shouldn't guess on public board, seems like a bad thing to do, but I'm going to do it anyways.
[49:40.720 --> 49:52.420]  If I had to guess what would happen is, well, at some point in time, so first of all, what's going to happen is that North Koreans are going to increasingly become disillusioned with the government.
[49:52.580 --> 49:56.520]  They're going to probably figure out that they have more power than the military.
[49:56.520 --> 50:09.220]  And they may in some really long, far off time, try to stage a coup against their own government in which, if you know anything about America, you know we like a good coup.
[50:09.500 --> 50:13.100]  And so we would probably, we would probably support them, right?
[50:13.200 --> 50:18.060]  Because we already have troops being trained in South Korea to support them.
[50:18.060 --> 50:23.280]  And of course, China won't want it to happen just like with, just like with the Ukraine.
[50:23.460 --> 50:26.520]  They won't want NATO on their doorstep, right?
[50:26.640 --> 50:29.400]  So they're going to push back against that.
[50:29.520 --> 50:35.600]  And then I don't know what happens after that, but I'm sure it won't be, it won't be fun.
[50:36.700 --> 50:48.600]  But that being said, the amount of people that we could hypothetically make aware or, or help out before that happens, I think is worth, is worth it ultimately.
[50:53.020 --> 50:53.800]  Thank you.