[00:00.000 --> 00:00.940]  Co-presenter.
[00:01.360 --> 00:02.680]  Hey, I'm Julian McArdle.
[00:03.000 --> 00:06.780]  We both fall today under the heading of documentary filmmakers.
[00:08.080 --> 00:10.620]  I've just finished my first.
[00:10.940 --> 00:12.560]  This gentleman has finished his second.
[00:12.900 --> 00:14.460]  So he kicks my ass.
[00:15.180 --> 00:18.020]  Today's talk is called several things.
[00:18.440 --> 00:20.520]  It's called Underground Documentaries.
[00:20.820 --> 00:22.280]  I think there was another name, wasn't there?
[00:22.400 --> 00:24.800]  Something like putting together a ham sandwich.
[00:25.040 --> 00:26.180]  The art of interview... what?
[00:26.600 --> 00:28.380]  The art of... Sandwich making?
[00:28.540 --> 00:29.420]  Yeah, the art of something.
[00:29.420 --> 00:40.020]  The art of... Anyway, the point is it's about documentaries, the process by which one makes them, why you would want to make them, and what things came up in the process of our works.
[00:40.180 --> 00:47.820]  So just to talk about what we did, I made a film, well, one film, called BBS The Documentary.
[00:48.280 --> 00:54.340]  This is a film about dial-up bulletin board systems of the 1970s, 80s, and 90s.
[00:55.140 --> 00:57.540]  This project started in 2001.
[00:57.780 --> 01:02.060]  I finished everything in the spring of 2005.
[01:03.080 --> 01:13.160]  It ended up being five and a half hours, eight episodes, has 200 interviews, it's on three DVDs, and yeah.
[01:13.160 --> 01:18.500]  So I was a 31-year-old gentleman coming in, and I was a 35-year-old wreck coming out of it.
[01:20.300 --> 01:36.460]  In my turn, my project was the piracy documentary, which focused on Internet piracy, and this consisted of interviews with CREA, which was the Canadian Recording Industry Association, and a bunch of others to get sort of all angles on that topic.
[01:36.600 --> 01:37.840]  And again, that was my second movie.
[01:38.080 --> 01:43.660]  My first one was a sort of edutainment film on computer basics, known as The Eynto Show.
[01:46.380 --> 01:47.900]  E-Y-N-T-O.
[01:48.140 --> 01:48.920]  E-Y-N-T-O.
[01:48.920 --> 01:49.180]  E-Y-N-T-O.
[01:49.400 --> 01:49.740]  I know.
[01:50.360 --> 01:53.000]  We probably should just mention our websites now just to get out of the way.
[01:53.160 --> 01:55.520]  I'm bbsdocumentary.com.
[01:55.860 --> 01:58.860]  And I am piracydocumentary.com.
[01:58.980 --> 01:59.820]  All one word.
[02:00.340 --> 02:01.360]  Yeah, we all meet at night.
[02:01.980 --> 02:15.380]  So the first thing you've got to do when people hear documentaries, especially in the modern age where you have documentaries that are also polemics, is what exactly constitutes a documentary.
[02:15.960 --> 02:27.280]  One of the debates that came out of the thousands out of Fahrenheit 9-11 was whether or not it actually was a documentary and whether or not it deserved any sort of Oscar for it.
[02:27.280 --> 02:52.120]  If you go and read the Oscar rules on what constitutes a documentary, it is a, and I'm semi-paraphrasing here, it is a motion picture in which real-life events represent an inspiration and are told through either recreation, actual footage, or through exposition.
[02:54.120 --> 03:04.660]  So, basically, a mobile phone cam shot is a documentary and technically Texas Chainsaw Massacre is a documentary.
[03:05.380 --> 03:07.740]  Both are based on real events.
[03:08.640 --> 03:10.660]  Took a few liberties here and there.
[03:11.360 --> 03:12.860]  So, documentary.
[03:13.160 --> 03:15.460]  So, you can't fall into those kind of debates.
[03:15.820 --> 03:21.640]  To myself, a documentary is simply a film that informs you in some way.
[03:22.120 --> 03:25.120]  Uh, whether or not it does entertainment along the way is a bonus.
[03:25.420 --> 03:32.400]  Uh, the idea is, at the end of it, you've learned something that has some vague use to you.
[03:32.600 --> 03:39.740]  Whether or not the actual thing you learn is, I never want to hear about this again, and I should avoid things named this.
[03:40.700 --> 03:42.440]  Um, do you have a definition of your own?
[03:42.620 --> 03:43.460]  Um, yeah.
[03:43.700 --> 03:44.400]  Actually, no.
[03:44.560 --> 03:46.560]  I don't have a definition of my own.
[03:46.560 --> 03:49.660]  Uh, basically, anything that documents in any way.
[03:50.240 --> 03:50.720]  There has...
[03:50.720 --> 03:52.800]  Relevance is not an issue with that.
[03:52.940 --> 03:58.180]  It can be completely irrelevant, but as long as it's truthful, it constitutes a documentary in my books.
[03:59.560 --> 04:00.040]  Um...
[04:00.040 --> 04:01.040]  Or an attempt at truth.
[04:02.640 --> 04:03.600]  What's your age again?
[04:04.000 --> 04:04.460]  My what?
[04:04.600 --> 04:05.260]  What's your age?
[04:05.440 --> 04:06.060]  How old are you?
[04:06.200 --> 04:07.860]  I am 21 as of today.
[04:08.820 --> 04:09.160]  Hey!
[04:09.160 --> 04:09.660]  Yes.
[04:11.960 --> 04:12.420]  It...
[04:12.420 --> 04:12.680]  Is there...
[04:12.680 --> 04:14.420]  Is there someone with Jägermeister in the house?
[04:16.360 --> 04:16.820]  Um...
[04:16.820 --> 04:19.440]  I am 35 as of not today.
[04:19.780 --> 04:23.420]  Uh, just so we understand that we're coming from two different positions.
[04:23.780 --> 04:26.760]  Uh, when I was 21, I wasn't doing what he was doing at all.
[04:27.000 --> 04:34.120]  Um, and I didn't start doing anything involving, quote-unquote, professional filmmaking until I was 31.
[04:34.120 --> 04:40.560]  Now, I got a film degree, but then I realized that the film business sucks and I didn't want anything to do with it.
[04:40.820 --> 04:43.380]  So I ended up going into computers, which paid better.
[04:43.500 --> 04:48.280]  And it was because of that well-paying job that I was able to consider making a film.
[04:48.820 --> 04:54.380]  So, it's important to demarcate when I'm talking about these films that my film was a hobby.
[04:54.820 --> 04:59.200]  Um, I didn't sit there shooting everything saying, is this gonna earn me money?
[04:59.340 --> 05:00.320]  Is this gonna get me something?
[05:00.440 --> 05:02.360]  It was like, okay, well, maybe today was fun.
[05:02.360 --> 05:03.760]  Maybe it wasn't fun.
[05:03.940 --> 05:10.000]  But I wasn't sitting there saying, if I don't get this shot, we're gonna lose money and I'm going to go under and I have to make my house payment.
[05:10.220 --> 05:18.880]  I always made sure when I shot my film, uh, that I never let it consume my life to the point that I was betting the farm.
[05:19.080 --> 05:22.420]  Because that's when you make really poor decisions in everything.
[05:22.780 --> 05:29.440]  When you sit there and say to yourself, if I don't do this right, uh, I'm going to fail, so I better do this shortcut.
[05:29.440 --> 05:30.560]  Who's gonna notice?
[05:31.140 --> 05:32.240]  And that's how bridges fall down.
[05:34.420 --> 05:42.240]  So, when you're making a documentary film, or decide you want to, does anyone here have an interest in making one?
[05:43.760 --> 05:44.320]  Excellent.
[05:44.660 --> 05:45.920]  I'm better than NYU.
[05:46.160 --> 05:46.620]  And cheaper.
[05:48.080 --> 05:50.920]  Anybody here, let's see, so I was asking that one.
[05:51.220 --> 05:53.840]  Anybody here made a documentary film?
[05:54.260 --> 05:55.080]  Oh, yeah.
[05:55.300 --> 05:55.580]  Nice.
[05:55.860 --> 05:56.740]  Was it, was it good?
[05:58.120 --> 05:58.520]  Yes?
[05:58.620 --> 05:59.300]  Yep, okay, two goods.
[05:59.300 --> 06:00.040]  Yeah, we got hands there, yeah.
[06:00.180 --> 06:00.960]  We got two goods.
[06:01.100 --> 06:01.720]  We got two goods.
[06:01.840 --> 06:03.060]  One I wish I wasn't there.
[06:04.200 --> 06:04.600]  Excellent.
[06:05.240 --> 06:06.600]  Porn doesn't count as documentary.
[06:09.120 --> 06:10.300]  Okay, we're down to one.
[06:10.680 --> 06:16.040]  All right, so, my question is, you know, why did you want to make your film?
[06:16.160 --> 06:17.680]  Why would you want to make a documentary?
[06:17.980 --> 06:19.340]  And that's an important concept.
[06:19.600 --> 06:21.620]  Why, what do you think is there?
[06:21.740 --> 06:27.980]  So, I get, I get calls now, because I actually made it through the colon of film production.
[06:28.320 --> 06:29.800]  And people say, what's it like out there?
[06:30.120 --> 06:35.620]  And they often come to me and say, I'm going to make a hacking documentary.
[06:38.160 --> 06:43.800]  And it's like, okay, it's like saying, I'm going to be in a band, and we're going to play rock music.
[06:44.620 --> 06:49.760]  It's like, okay, that's, all right, why are you making this hacking documentary?
[06:50.100 --> 06:55.300]  And often it's, I am a hacker, so I'll make a hacker documentary.
[06:56.120 --> 07:00.620]  Or, you know, other people will be like, I'm a musician, I want to make a music documentary, and so on.
[07:00.720 --> 07:07.340]  And the question becomes there, you know, you know, you can save yourself a lot of time, well, okay, there's two flip sides to it, right?
[07:07.580 --> 07:14.440]  You can lose out on a lot of life by asking too many questions, and you can gain back a lot of your life by asking too many questions.
[07:14.860 --> 07:17.560]  So, you ask that fundamental question, why am I doing this?
[07:17.700 --> 07:20.980]  So, why did you decide to make a documentary, we won't count the first one.
[07:21.100 --> 07:24.580]  The first one, he shot with a mobile phone, by the way.
[07:25.120 --> 07:29.280]  Just in case anyone here is wondering about, like, whether or not you've got to go down to B&H Photo and drop 10 grand.
[07:29.800 --> 07:33.620]  Yeah, equipment is not a prerequisite to making a documentary.
[07:33.880 --> 07:36.440]  You have to have the love for it, and the love of the topic.
[07:36.800 --> 07:46.160]  If the topic is uninteresting to you, odds are, unless you're paid for it, at which point the love becomes one for money, it won't be a good film.
[07:46.320 --> 07:50.340]  You have to really like it, or else, likewise, you like the BBSs?
[07:51.060 --> 07:51.260]  Yes.
[07:51.260 --> 07:52.880]  That was an important part of your life.
[07:53.160 --> 08:01.820]  I very much liked computer-related things, computer security for the first, and for this last one, just the where's world and how it worked.
[08:02.400 --> 08:06.560]  And that, without that key thing, it all falls apart.
[08:07.660 --> 08:15.060]  In my case, I noticed that it was getting to be 2001, and nobody had made the Time Life series of BBSs.
[08:15.060 --> 08:17.580]  So I guess it was time for me to do it.
[08:18.580 --> 08:22.840]  So I sat down and spent... My timeline, like I said, was a little weird.
[08:23.000 --> 08:24.060]  It was four years.
[08:24.280 --> 08:38.760]  So it was six months of research, three years of shooting, and about eight months of editing, production, finishing things off, screaming at an idiot, asshole record company, and clearing things out.
[08:40.680 --> 08:44.400]  So, for me, it was a case of, what's my story here?
[08:44.580 --> 08:46.100]  Let's go actually find out.
[08:46.260 --> 08:48.020]  You know, you enter into a story.
[08:48.180 --> 08:50.600]  Let's say you're going to do a story on the HOPE conference, right?
[08:50.720 --> 08:51.880]  You come in with an idea.
[08:52.040 --> 08:53.340]  You can come in as an attendee.
[08:53.460 --> 08:54.960]  You can come in as an organizer.
[08:55.220 --> 08:56.500]  Those are two very separate stories.
[08:56.740 --> 08:58.900]  You can come in as somebody who wants to just speak.
[08:59.140 --> 09:00.000]  That's another story.
[09:00.000 --> 09:03.080]  Each time, there's all these hundreds of stories that could be going on.
[09:03.340 --> 09:09.640]  As a filmmaker, you are recording, for documentaries, something semi-based in reality.
[09:09.960 --> 09:11.080]  In fact, you're not.
[09:11.460 --> 09:15.640]  Every time you aim the camera in a different direction, you are making an editing decision.
[09:16.140 --> 09:19.600]  So something's going on behind you, you're not getting that shot.
[09:19.860 --> 09:22.920]  You're getting the twirly, blurry shot.
[09:24.420 --> 09:27.740]  So, you have to make sure that you kind of know where things are going.
[09:27.940 --> 09:30.700]  But on the other hand, sometimes you have to change midstream.
[09:31.440 --> 09:35.740]  So, when I started out, I knew I kind of wanted bulletin boards, but I didn't know where it was going to go.
[09:36.040 --> 09:38.980]  So, then it turned out that I wanted to do something on FidoNet.
[09:39.120 --> 09:43.100]  And I wanted to do something on ANSI art and all these obscure subjects.
[09:43.100 --> 09:45.000]  So, I had to start tracking people down.
[09:46.460 --> 09:53.040]  For your piracy documentary, you started working with places that I would never set foot in.
[09:53.220 --> 09:55.300]  Like the Canadian Recording Association.
[09:55.680 --> 09:55.800]  Yeah.
[09:57.000 --> 09:57.540]  The...
[09:57.540 --> 09:58.380]  Yeah.
[09:59.000 --> 09:59.280]  How?
[09:59.460 --> 09:59.620]  Okay.
[10:00.480 --> 10:01.540]  Sorry, I'm trying to...
[10:01.540 --> 10:02.260]  Well, this is important.
[10:02.260 --> 10:07.520]  Because when I did my film, my film was meant to be a narrative about this history.
[10:07.720 --> 10:12.210]  Because my problem was that nobody really kind of had down the history of FidoNet.
[10:12.210 --> 10:15.270]  FidoNet truly from the voices of the people who did it.
[10:16.150 --> 10:18.910]  But there's a lot of people who have a lot of voices in piracy.
[10:19.590 --> 10:19.690]  Yeah.
[10:20.310 --> 10:21.130]  Oh, most definitely.
[10:21.570 --> 10:34.170]  So, for instance, when it started off with Korea, you've got this one perspective and then they threw you off to ten other perspectives of these ten contacts that do have a voice.
[10:34.510 --> 10:39.630]  Now, what was the reason for which you would not like to be in the same room as those people?
[10:39.830 --> 10:40.830]  You know, it's funny.
[10:40.830 --> 10:40.850]  It's funny.
[10:41.390 --> 10:55.590]  When I think of these, you know, some of these subject matters, when I did my hacking episode, my rule was no law enforcement, no covering too much on busts, no talking to reporters.
[10:56.070 --> 10:58.010]  Because I didn't need that.
[10:58.250 --> 10:59.670]  They get plenty of voice.
[10:59.670 --> 11:08.610]  My concern was I wanted an Apple II cracker, who nobody's heard of, except for that he cracked an Apple game 20 years ago.
[11:08.770 --> 11:10.590]  And I wanted to get all those people.
[11:10.750 --> 11:14.790]  And I figured, you know, life can go ahead and criticize them, but I wanted to get their voice first.
[11:14.790 --> 11:17.430]  And so, I would say, yeah.
[11:17.790 --> 11:21.150]  In my case, there is a blind spot there.
[11:21.190 --> 11:24.810]  Because I never sought out the law enforcement perspective.
[11:24.810 --> 11:25.230]  Yeah.
[11:25.450 --> 11:45.290]  And that's actually a neat thing about documentaries, is that even though you might hear about a topic, right, and you might hear about certain perspectives, let's say the Korea, which everyone loves to hate, or the RIAA here in the U.S., the advantage of you doing a documentary is that you can seek out perspectives that no one really had before.
[11:45.290 --> 11:50.510]  So, for instance, the RIAA, we always hear about how they're trying to crack down on downloading.
[11:50.710 --> 11:53.610]  And typically, journalists try to get that very shallow perspective.
[11:53.890 --> 12:06.470]  So you, as a documentary filmmaker, and I keep referring back to the Piracy documentary, because it's what I'm familiar with, but you, as a documentary filmmaker, have the option of, yes, going for that common voice, but the uncommon perspective therein.
[12:06.690 --> 12:12.710]  The questions I had asked these guys that I had met during the trip, they hadn't really heard them before.
[12:12.710 --> 12:18.090]  Because journalists really do not have the expertise that you guys have, right?
[12:18.210 --> 12:20.150]  They typically have to cover all these stories.
[12:20.430 --> 12:24.090]  And so they have a lot of general knowledge and a lot of separate things.
[12:24.170 --> 12:29.690]  But the advantage that you guys have is that you're an expert in your own special field.
[12:29.790 --> 12:30.870]  So you have the upper hand.
[12:31.070 --> 12:38.670]  So when you come along with people that are on the, you know, well-trodden road, you're able to go off that and able to ask questions.
[12:38.670 --> 12:43.210]  And that really helps your documentary in getting that hopefully new perspective.
[12:44.130 --> 12:50.790]  My producer only stopped me from going to two different interviews on their face.
[12:51.290 --> 12:56.670]  One of them was traveling to a ranch to interview a fellow who ran a White power BBS.
[12:57.210 --> 13:02.950]  Theory being that a jewish filmmaker should probably not go alone with his camera onto a White power ranch.
[13:04.470 --> 13:08.130]  I'm forgetting the other one, but it also involved weaponry.
[13:10.030 --> 13:17.730]  But generally the toughest part of any documentary is finding the people that you wish to speak to.
[13:18.050 --> 13:21.750]  And by that I mean it's very easy to find people who give an opinion.
[13:22.270 --> 13:28.290]  There are what I call the documentary, I call them the fallacies, the editing fallacies.
[13:28.290 --> 13:29.810]  And I have stupid names for them.
[13:29.990 --> 13:34.390]  I call them monkey dance, I call them bling, and so on.
[13:34.570 --> 13:38.530]  And basically what they work out to is, and you do this, but everyone does this.
[13:38.570 --> 13:40.390]  And I ended up almost doing it a few times.
[13:40.770 --> 13:45.290]  Monkey dance is where you make somebody do the thing they do in front of you on the camera.
[13:45.650 --> 13:48.270]  The problem with that is that they're not actually doing it.
[13:48.330 --> 13:49.390]  They're doing it for the camera.
[13:49.450 --> 13:53.310]  So you get people working on a computer and they're doing this because they're not looking at it.
[13:53.310 --> 13:55.650]  But hey, you want a shot of the person doing this.
[13:55.850 --> 14:00.510]  There's what I call cake walk, which is where you make a person walk down a street while other people walk around them.
[14:00.590 --> 14:02.410]  And you put their voice in overlay over it.
[14:03.270 --> 14:10.810]  This allows them to go on some endless useless exposition and be somewhat interesting because you can stare at the girl's ass next to the guy who's walking.
[14:11.890 --> 14:19.110]  Then there's what I call razzle dazzle bling, which is where you take a macro lens and aim it directly at some small bit of the person's life.
[14:19.110 --> 14:23.690]  Whether it's a stamp or a piece of their keyboard or something and go along it very slowly.
[14:24.550 --> 14:26.290]  Again, this allows exposition.
[14:26.550 --> 14:30.410]  One of your problems in the documentary is that film is not print.
[14:30.650 --> 14:33.990]  Film is not able to give you the mass of print.
[14:34.110 --> 14:41.550]  On the other hand, film tends to be slightly less boring because it's only 40 minutes of your life that's gone instead of 10 days trying to read this 2,000 page tome.
[14:43.870 --> 14:46.790]  It's shallow, but it's also very effective.
[14:47.390 --> 14:51.650]  So, you know, think of it as a knife stab instead of a nice full operation.
[14:52.150 --> 14:58.250]  You get it in there and you feel it and it's done as opposed to slowly destroying you.
[15:00.250 --> 15:05.410]  So, there's a couple other cases and one of them is what I call man on the street.
[15:05.410 --> 15:14.410]  And what that means is you walk down with your camera to the nearest corner and you basically charge at somebody and go, so, GMO, go!
[15:15.490 --> 15:17.370]  Well, people will do one and several things.
[15:17.650 --> 15:19.790]  Probably they're not thinking about GMO at that point.
[15:20.270 --> 15:23.490]  So, probably they're going to say, I don't know what GMO is.
[15:23.630 --> 15:27.270]  Or they're going to go with, um, is that a supermarket?
[15:27.670 --> 15:30.350]  Or they'll say, hey, I hate GMO.
[15:30.350 --> 15:33.530]  Or you'll be really lucky and you'll get someone who will go, GMO, Jesus Christ!
[15:33.610 --> 15:35.910]  And they'll drop their briefcase and take their shirt off and scream at you.
[15:37.230 --> 15:49.290]  Then you, in the editing room, unsure how to do, to get from point A to point B, flip back to a bunch of people in the street spouting off what they know, which is nothing about the subject.
[15:50.290 --> 15:52.030]  But you get from one place to another.
[15:52.250 --> 15:54.810]  And that's a major problem when you're telling, quote, unquote, a story.
[15:54.950 --> 15:57.730]  Trying to turn reality into a story is the fundamental problem.
[15:57.730 --> 16:04.930]  This is why when you have documentaries that are about certain subjects, and then you compare it to a film made on the same subject.
[16:05.170 --> 16:06.550]  Well, first of all, there's a lot more f*cking.
[16:06.790 --> 16:13.370]  But beyond that, you end up with all these kind of things where they say, oh yeah, that guy, that guy was these four guys.
[16:13.730 --> 16:16.430]  Because those four people are 25% interesting.
[16:17.030 --> 16:19.450]  So they've pressed them together into one guy.
[16:19.650 --> 16:21.690]  So if you know the original story, it's not as compelling.
[16:21.870 --> 16:24.570]  But if you do know the story, if you don't know the story, it's pretty compelling.
[16:24.710 --> 16:25.370]  I wish I was there.
[16:25.510 --> 16:26.050]  It's pretty interesting.
[16:26.890 --> 16:27.830]  I'm killing you, aren't I?
[16:28.710 --> 16:29.110]  The...
[16:31.170 --> 16:31.970]  Let's just...
[16:31.970 --> 16:35.590]  Again, he does some of these shortcuts in the piracy documentary.
[16:35.850 --> 16:37.750]  This means he's more professional than I am.
[16:39.010 --> 16:41.050]  You know, there's a lot of risks I took.
[16:41.190 --> 16:46.350]  When I interviewed people, I intentionally did not ask them to do anything related to what they do.
[16:46.530 --> 16:47.890]  I just simply talked to them.
[16:47.970 --> 16:50.910]  And it became up to me to make the interviews as compelling as possible.
[16:50.910 --> 16:53.390]  That was what we call a double down bet.
[16:54.190 --> 17:01.310]  That's where I'm going to sit there eight months later, wishing I had a time machine so I could punch myself in the nuts.
[17:02.770 --> 17:06.130]  And there are cases of me.
[17:06.210 --> 17:07.510]  I'm on film.
[17:07.510 --> 17:10.710]  I'm editing film that has me in it.
[17:10.750 --> 17:13.430]  And I hear myself going, I'm so sorry for that.
[17:14.070 --> 17:15.790]  And I'm going, I forgive you.
[17:16.590 --> 17:21.350]  Because I know when I'm shooting it that I'm like, oh, I'm going to be so angry at myself.
[17:21.550 --> 17:22.850]  Because there's two you's.
[17:23.010 --> 17:28.290]  There's the guy out with the camera who's really enjoyable, really athletic, having fun, going around getting the shot.
[17:28.450 --> 17:36.770]  And then there's the poor crammed asshole with the soda who's stuck there for 24 hours at a stretch trying to turn this dog shit into something relating to a story.
[17:37.130 --> 17:38.050]  And that's tough.
[17:38.310 --> 17:39.750]  And that's part of it.
[17:39.750 --> 17:46.050]  And I, just to jump out of our sequence, that can't be discounted.
[17:46.230 --> 17:49.810]  The time that it takes to do these things is very important.
[17:49.810 --> 17:56.310]  Because if you sit in an IRC channel talking about your documentary, that holds interest for people for about 14 minutes.
[17:56.750 --> 17:59.110]  And then after that, they're back to the dong jokes.
[17:59.470 --> 18:06.290]  And when you try to take energy and try to get ideas from these people, they're like, why are you still talking about that?
[18:06.490 --> 18:07.430]  That was Monday.
[18:07.650 --> 18:08.390]  It's Wednesday.
[18:09.910 --> 18:14.670]  So, it took me eight months of editing after...
[18:14.670 --> 18:18.650]  I mean, there were literally people who I interviewed who died.
[18:20.710 --> 18:22.630]  Because time went on.
[18:23.030 --> 18:27.150]  And by the time I'm editing them, they're never going to see what I did.
[18:28.330 --> 18:33.070]  So, that time bit doesn't show up for people who are saying...
[18:33.070 --> 18:36.350]  And you know, once I finished it, in my case, it's five and a half hours.
[18:36.430 --> 18:37.110]  That'll slow you down.
[18:37.230 --> 18:40.350]  But his film will be between 40 minutes to an hour and a half.
[18:40.610 --> 18:45.230]  So, in an hour, that person will take their months and months of work and go...
[18:46.790 --> 18:48.710]  And then turn over to the Teletubbies.
[18:49.690 --> 18:50.730]  Well, because they're stoned.
[18:52.730 --> 18:55.950]  So, you know, you can't... you have to understand that.
[18:56.230 --> 18:59.790]  That, I mean, all these little arts and things have the secret part.
[18:59.930 --> 19:00.690]  Writing has this.
[19:00.850 --> 19:01.950]  Marathon training has this.
[19:02.070 --> 19:02.410]  All of this.
[19:02.530 --> 19:03.930]  The part where you are alone.
[19:04.490 --> 19:06.470]  The part where it's you and your product.
[19:06.470 --> 19:07.530]  And you are alone.
[19:07.890 --> 19:08.770]  And you are working on it.
[19:08.890 --> 19:10.230]  And you know it's going to be good.
[19:10.670 --> 19:12.990]  But you've got so much to go through.
[19:13.250 --> 19:14.850]  And that's when you can make the shortcuts.
[19:15.090 --> 19:17.050]  Because you're like, but I have to make this festival.
[19:17.550 --> 19:19.730]  You know, because there aren't 5,000 festivals.
[19:20.670 --> 19:22.090]  I've never... no, that's not true.
[19:22.170 --> 19:24.330]  I did play in one festival, so I could get in the IMDB.
[19:25.010 --> 19:26.550]  That's the good part, by the way.
[19:26.630 --> 19:27.490]  You get in the IMDB.
[19:29.190 --> 19:31.790]  That's... you get in the IMDB, then you can put your picture up.
[19:31.890 --> 19:34.690]  By the way, it costs 50 bucks to put your picture in the IMDB.
[19:34.690 --> 19:37.130]  And then you can write about what a great guy you are.
[19:37.370 --> 19:39.770]  And then you can point to that, and you get a cupcake.
[19:41.610 --> 19:50.570]  With the piracy documentary, watching it, like I said, when I had it, I had my biases.
[19:51.010 --> 19:54.610]  When you went in, did you find any of your biases changed?
[19:55.390 --> 19:56.490]  Oh, for sure.
[19:56.710 --> 19:59.750]  You mean like going in from before to during, like after production?
[20:00.110 --> 20:00.170]  Yeah.
[20:00.330 --> 20:03.070]  Like after, because you actually sat in the room with these weasels.
[20:03.850 --> 20:04.250]  Yeah.
[20:04.770 --> 20:08.410]  When you interview people, at least in my case, your perspectives change.
[20:09.110 --> 20:13.050]  It's always good to go in there with at least some idea of what you're going to say.
[20:13.310 --> 20:18.490]  But the more you interview people, the more they fill you in on perspectives you had not imagined.
[20:18.650 --> 20:19.950]  Vectors you had not thought about.
[20:20.490 --> 20:21.470]  And so the thing changes.
[20:21.570 --> 20:28.750]  By the end that you're actually doing post-production, you're probably somewhat of a different person than you were before.
[20:28.750 --> 20:32.810]  Mind you, my topic is somewhat of a more subjective matter.
[20:32.950 --> 20:35.130]  I mean, BBS is somewhat more...
[20:35.130 --> 20:39.590]  I mean, there's no one angry about BBS per se today, I hope.
[20:40.450 --> 20:40.730]  So...
[20:40.730 --> 20:40.990]  Wrong.
[20:42.090 --> 20:43.210]  Okay, I stand corrected.
[20:43.330 --> 20:44.190]  It was before my time.
[20:44.190 --> 20:46.110]  There was somebody who I tried to interview.
[20:46.730 --> 20:47.390]  And he said, sure.
[20:48.050 --> 20:48.890]  This was the...
[20:50.070 --> 20:50.750]  Okay, fine.
[20:50.790 --> 20:51.130]  I'll tell you.
[20:51.490 --> 20:53.430]  This was the gentleman who created Orchestra 80.
[20:53.550 --> 20:55.250]  Does anyone know what Orchestra 80 is?
[20:55.550 --> 20:57.550]  One man knows what Orchestra 80 is.
[20:57.650 --> 20:57.930]  Excellent.
[20:57.930 --> 21:00.450]  You and I will go somewhere and be alone.
[21:01.630 --> 21:06.150]  The Orchestra 80 system was a musical system created for the TRS-80.
[21:06.690 --> 21:08.970]  And what it was was basically there was no sound.
[21:09.090 --> 21:13.310]  And what this was was a circuit that could connect to it that would allow it to send sine waves.
[21:13.410 --> 21:18.930]  So you could actually get basically voices and music in it around the 1980 and onward period.
[21:19.710 --> 21:20.370]  Around that time.
[21:20.550 --> 21:27.630]  And so basically, if anyone's ever used Amigas and mods or done tracking or anything where you make music, you could do this in the early 80s.
[21:27.710 --> 21:31.310]  And I was originally going to do an episode where I was going to have all these art things.
[21:31.510 --> 21:33.390]  All these people who kind of used computers for art.
[21:33.670 --> 21:38.370]  And it ended up being just antsy art because that filled 40 minutes, which tells you where my perspective went.
[21:38.630 --> 21:40.210]  I went to go interview this man.
[21:40.310 --> 21:41.390]  And he said, you betcha.
[21:42.010 --> 21:42.730]  Sounds interesting.
[21:43.330 --> 21:44.610]  And he was in California.
[21:45.150 --> 21:47.350]  And I was staying at a friend's house in California.
[21:47.570 --> 21:51.350]  And I checked my email because at 8 in the morning I got to go interview this guy.
[21:51.630 --> 21:52.470]  And he mails me.
[21:52.570 --> 21:53.270]  He goes, hi, Jason.
[21:54.470 --> 22:00.530]  I took all the equipment out of my garage to lay it out so you could interview me with Mitt.
[22:00.870 --> 22:04.370]  And I realized looking at it that this is what destroyed my marriage.
[22:04.890 --> 22:08.370]  That I spent all of my time with this machinery.
[22:08.550 --> 22:09.830]  And I ignored my wife.
[22:09.930 --> 22:10.750]  And I ignored my child.
[22:10.850 --> 22:11.850]  And they're no longer in my life.
[22:12.170 --> 22:14.230]  And I don't think I really want to talk about that anymore.
[22:14.790 --> 22:16.490]  So I think I'm going to cancel the interview.
[22:16.630 --> 22:18.190]  And I think I'm going to get rid of this stuff.
[22:19.530 --> 22:21.490]  So I wrote him back and said, okay.
[22:21.770 --> 22:22.970]  I didn't write him and say, f*ck you.
[22:23.530 --> 22:24.370]  Be a professional.
[22:24.750 --> 22:26.430]  I wrote him back and said, I totally understand.
[22:26.430 --> 22:27.970]  Please give that stuff to a museum.
[22:28.770 --> 22:29.630]  And that's that.
[22:30.830 --> 22:34.370]  You know, there are people in a subject.
[22:34.370 --> 22:36.870]  You can't just think of a historical subject as being gone.
[22:37.690 --> 22:40.770]  You can talk to somebody who watched someone die.
[22:40.990 --> 22:42.190]  And they can be 80.
[22:42.450 --> 22:44.250]  And they will be there when they tell you.
[22:44.250 --> 22:48.130]  And you have to be very, very careful about that.
[22:48.430 --> 22:51.110]  During the documentary, I interviewed 205 people.
[22:51.330 --> 22:52.470]  Generally, they were happy.
[22:52.770 --> 22:55.250]  In one case, I had someone break down on camera.
[22:55.710 --> 22:58.350]  Because he realized how much pain it had caused him.
[22:58.690 --> 22:59.930]  And you have two choices there.
[22:59.990 --> 23:01.650]  You can stop the interview or you can keep rolling.
[23:01.810 --> 23:02.570]  I kept rolling.
[23:02.750 --> 23:08.510]  Because I thought that it was vital that people see what effect they had on this man.
[23:08.590 --> 23:10.830]  Because he was perceived as a very evil character.
[23:10.830 --> 23:15.330]  He was perceived as somebody who was actually a big company destroying someone's life.
[23:16.010 --> 23:21.870]  And in fact, he was just another businessman who discovered the world wasn't what he thought it was.
[23:21.870 --> 23:24.050]  And he had made a bad decision in publicity.
[23:24.070 --> 23:25.130]  And now he was hated.
[23:25.310 --> 23:27.750]  And all he could be remembered for was how much he was hated.
[23:27.890 --> 23:28.770]  So he started crying.
[23:29.130 --> 23:30.350]  And that's in my movie.
[23:32.010 --> 23:35.030]  And he was the inventor of the ARC format.
[23:35.710 --> 23:39.530]  And the reason you don't hear about the ARC format and you hear about the ZIP format is because of this.
[23:41.790 --> 23:46.310]  So, sometimes in these films, you'll find yourself in a weird place that you never expected you would be.
[23:46.950 --> 23:47.010]  Right?
[23:47.270 --> 23:51.430]  I mean, there's cases where, as a filmmaker, you followed someone in.
[23:51.510 --> 23:54.750]  I mean, what do you do if you're doing a film on somebody and the guy suddenly lights up?
[23:55.570 --> 23:58.290]  Just starts doing a drug in front of you.
[23:58.570 --> 23:59.690]  Let's have even more fun.
[23:59.750 --> 24:00.650]  Let's say he injects.
[24:00.730 --> 24:01.450]  That's even more fun.
[24:01.530 --> 24:02.750]  At least with lighting up, you're like, oh.
[24:02.910 --> 24:05.070]  But the dude's just rolling up talking to you.
[24:05.210 --> 24:07.090]  And he just f*cking sticks it right in the arm.
[24:07.310 --> 24:08.010]  What do you do?
[24:08.010 --> 24:09.510]  Do you keep the footage?
[24:09.750 --> 24:10.670]  Do you throw out the footage?
[24:10.910 --> 24:11.610]  Do you talk to him?
[24:12.210 --> 24:13.350]  Uh, don't do that, please.
[24:15.130 --> 24:17.650]  You know, especially if it's, like, a milkman.
[24:18.670 --> 24:21.950]  You know, what happens when, like, someone's life kind of intersects with yours?
[24:21.950 --> 24:26.730]  I had one case where I interviewed someone and his wife threw me out of the house.
[24:28.710 --> 24:35.870]  Because, and I will not say his name, he was busted, involved with the BBS, and sent to jail for a year.
[24:36.690 --> 24:38.350]  That was back in the early 90s.
[24:38.490 --> 24:40.010]  And I was interviewing him in 2002.
[24:40.230 --> 24:42.750]  And his wife came into the room and said, what the hell is going on here?
[24:42.750 --> 24:44.650]  And he said, oh, I'm just talking about the bust.
[24:44.750 --> 24:45.870]  And she's like, no, you are not.
[24:46.450 --> 24:47.210]  You are...
[24:47.210 --> 24:47.410]  No.
[24:47.890 --> 24:48.930]  We live here.
[24:49.210 --> 24:51.390]  We live in the same community you were busted in.
[24:51.730 --> 24:54.670]  The chief of police is the same chief of police of when you were busted.
[24:55.130 --> 24:56.290]  This guy is going to leave.
[24:56.410 --> 24:58.250]  And you are going to have hell for our kids.
[24:58.790 --> 24:59.670]  Get him out.
[25:00.310 --> 25:01.370]  So I did the right thing.
[25:01.550 --> 25:03.450]  He had signed the release already.
[25:03.670 --> 25:06.050]  So I gave him the tapes he had already recorded.
[25:06.490 --> 25:08.510]  And I gave him his release back.
[25:08.710 --> 25:10.670]  And I said, if she ever changed her mind, fine.
[25:10.810 --> 25:12.950]  But if not, I'm out of here and I'll never mention your name again.
[25:13.230 --> 25:14.250]  I'll use his story though.
[25:15.430 --> 25:20.130]  But his wife's perspective trumps mine.
[25:20.690 --> 25:23.510]  You're shooting history, but they're living lives.
[25:24.090 --> 25:25.890]  And you have to respect that.
[25:26.830 --> 25:29.330]  That said, someone shooting up is f*cking great footage.
[25:29.330 --> 25:31.190]  So don't throw it away is basically what I'm saying.
[25:31.830 --> 25:33.190]  I mean, that's f*cking incredible.
[25:33.310 --> 25:34.610]  The dude shot up in front of you.
[25:34.730 --> 25:36.930]  Put that in the middle and you'll be the guy shot up movie.
[25:37.870 --> 25:39.810]  A lot of people think back to documentaries.
[25:39.810 --> 25:42.770]  And they'll go, oh, that's the one where the guy hit the wall documentary.
[25:43.130 --> 25:45.130]  It doesn't, it's not the BBS documentary.
[25:45.150 --> 25:47.850]  It's the guy cried near the nerds documentary.
[25:48.490 --> 25:51.270]  And that's, you know, there are moments of that.
[25:51.370 --> 25:52.950]  I'm thinking back to that film.
[25:53.130 --> 25:57.830]  But one of the ones that inspired me, Penelope Spheeris, his end of civilization.
[25:57.830 --> 25:59.450]  I think it was part two on heavy metal.
[25:59.710 --> 26:02.810]  And there's a film of, I think it's one of the Motley Crue guys or something.
[26:03.150 --> 26:04.370]  And he's drunk.
[26:04.910 --> 26:07.610]  And I mean, not, you know, there's drunk.
[26:08.510 --> 26:10.050]  There's drunk like I had a drink.
[26:10.210 --> 26:12.430]  And there's drunk like I'm a frog in formaldehyde.
[26:13.090 --> 26:14.730]  And he was in formaldehyde.
[26:14.730 --> 26:17.790]  And he was in his little f*cking inner tube.
[26:17.970 --> 26:18.830]  And his mother's there.
[26:18.930 --> 26:19.990]  They're interviewing her with her mother.
[26:20.190 --> 26:24.250]  And her mother is looking down at what is essentially a piece of dead meat that used to be her son.
[26:24.850 --> 26:26.870]  And Penelope Spheeris lets this camera run.
[26:26.990 --> 26:28.870]  And he's going off and being a rock star.
[26:29.010 --> 26:32.590]  And she's just sitting there talking, saying, I don't even know what you are.
[26:34.670 --> 26:38.930]  And to me, it will always be the inner tube f*cking drunk formaldehyde rock star movie.
[26:39.670 --> 26:41.230]  That's, anyway, compelling shit.
[26:41.490 --> 26:41.670]  Yeah?
[26:41.830 --> 26:41.950]  Right?
[26:42.030 --> 26:42.590]  Compelling shit.
[26:43.590 --> 26:48.270]  But, yeah, on topic of people who do say no and stuff like that, that's going to be anticipated.
[26:48.850 --> 26:54.590]  Your prime reaction when someone does say no, because you were talking about that, people declining interview, being kicked out of a house.
[26:54.830 --> 26:56.490]  You cannot get upset at that.
[26:56.610 --> 26:57.330]  It's going to happen.
[26:57.730 --> 27:02.830]  And what you can do, though, is pester them to perhaps give you info on someone who could do an interview.
[27:03.110 --> 27:09.370]  So, for instance, I've attempted interviews with 74 contacts, of which 25 agreed.
[27:09.370 --> 27:12.150]  Well, for the other 50, many said, you know, F off.
[27:12.410 --> 27:19.550]  But for those who didn't tell me to go my own way, they were kind enough to give me contacts to people who finally did interviews.
[27:19.870 --> 27:21.350]  And sometimes it's a long path.
[27:21.450 --> 27:23.390]  It's like a railroad with multiple stuffs, right?
[27:23.490 --> 27:25.370]  So, I'll give you one example.
[27:25.590 --> 27:27.630]  I was trying to get the labels perspective, right?
[27:27.890 --> 27:30.610]  Because they're the ones who are mostly doing all the action here.
[27:30.950 --> 27:35.670]  And so they're like, okay, well, we won't do interviews, but maybe you can try these guys.
[27:35.810 --> 27:36.470]  So I go to these guys.
[27:36.590 --> 27:37.730]  They're like, eh, not really.
[27:37.910 --> 27:38.170]  Next.
[27:38.610 --> 27:41.110]  Anyways, long down the road, I come to Korea.
[27:41.390 --> 27:45.650]  And by that time, I've had all these people that are sort of vouching for me because they feel a bit bad.
[27:46.050 --> 27:50.670]  And then I get an interview with Korea, at which point, you know, they see me come in the door and they're like, who are you?
[27:51.010 --> 27:52.190]  I'm doing an interview with you, right?
[27:52.270 --> 27:54.110]  Because you've got this sort of...
[27:54.110 --> 27:57.790]  Another advantage of being turned down is that you can use those people as somewhat of a reference.
[27:57.790 --> 28:00.810]  So if you walk into a room and...
[28:00.810 --> 28:07.250]  I was dressed like this when I was interviewing, like, president of, like, the Canadian RIAA and, like, Canadian MPAA.
[28:07.550 --> 28:10.430]  I'm going to be like, what's that punk kid doing here?
[28:10.570 --> 28:13.390]  Well, they're doing an interview and they have no choice but saying yes.
[28:13.390 --> 28:18.270]  So that's how a nose can actually be a good thing and don't get upset.
[28:18.770 --> 28:19.230]  So...
[28:19.230 --> 28:19.890]  When...
[28:19.890 --> 28:22.190]  It's been attributed to six billion people.
[28:22.370 --> 28:23.510]  It definitely dates to the 30s.
[28:23.570 --> 28:26.290]  But the phrase is, the key in filmmaking is honesty.
[28:26.430 --> 28:28.410]  And once you can fake that, you can get anywhere.
[28:31.150 --> 28:37.530]  The person who most people are surprised that I interviewed was Vinton Cerf, the evil overlord who controls the Internet.
[28:39.330 --> 28:45.750]  His interview basically came about because I wrote him and said, hey, I'd like to interview you.
[28:45.990 --> 28:47.750]  And he went, okay.
[28:48.690 --> 28:50.050]  Here's my secretary.
[28:50.350 --> 28:54.850]  And his secretary gave me a six-page PDF on, so you're going to interview Vinton Cerf.
[28:55.910 --> 29:02.330]  He said, come here, go here, wait here, and then you'll go to here and you'll be loaded into the anaerobic chamber and then over here and then...
[29:02.330 --> 29:05.390]  Anyway, so I went there and he was at it behind his desk.
[29:05.530 --> 29:05.970]  I set up.
[29:06.150 --> 29:10.930]  I asked him a bunch of questions about BBSs of which we talked very little about BBSs and then off we went.
[29:11.410 --> 29:12.050]  And that was it.
[29:12.150 --> 29:13.450]  One hour later, I was out of there.
[29:13.570 --> 29:15.130]  But I had my Vinton Cerf interview.
[29:16.810 --> 29:22.790]  And people have to realize that when a person is famous, they often got famous because they talk to people like you.
[29:23.250 --> 29:26.310]  And they talked to people like you all the time, all the time.
[29:26.550 --> 29:27.490]  I'll do my interview later.
[29:27.750 --> 29:31.970]  And they would talk to anybody who would write down anything.
[29:32.270 --> 29:34.470]  So wherever that happened, they would go for it.
[29:34.530 --> 29:35.390]  And that never stops.
[29:35.570 --> 29:36.970]  So you're just another one of them.
[29:37.430 --> 29:39.210]  You're just another guy who's going to do it.
[29:39.290 --> 29:44.730]  And in fact, they may not even remember their interview with you because they probably did five more that week with who knows what.
[29:45.430 --> 29:49.190]  It's their onus not to say something stupid in one that doesn't show up in the others.
[29:49.430 --> 29:51.170]  But that's how they got there.
[29:51.370 --> 29:53.810]  And I've had people who said, no.
[29:54.470 --> 29:57.750]  And then later I come back with, okay, I've done a hundred interviews.
[29:57.990 --> 29:58.490]  Will you do it?
[29:58.970 --> 30:02.190]  And they go to the page with the list of hundred interviews and all the photos.
[30:02.230 --> 30:03.850]  And they go, okay, you're serious.
[30:03.970 --> 30:04.410]  All right, fine.
[30:04.430 --> 30:04.870]  I'll do it.
[30:05.910 --> 30:09.070]  I've had to negotiate a few people who were vaguely interested in it.
[30:09.250 --> 30:10.330]  And then later they said, okay.
[30:10.590 --> 30:13.610]  Best one was a guy who said, best answer ever.
[30:13.910 --> 30:16.370]  Okay, you're probably legitimate.
[30:17.470 --> 30:20.390]  But I really pulled a prank on somebody.
[30:21.430 --> 30:23.950]  So I think you might be him.
[30:27.510 --> 30:32.890]  And I wrote to him and said, okay, here's my list of interviews with all my photos.
[30:33.050 --> 30:34.110]  And here's all the work I've done.
[30:34.110 --> 30:38.690]  And he wrote back, well, if you're him, you've done an awful lot of work.
[30:39.350 --> 30:40.590]  So let's do it.
[30:42.170 --> 30:45.670]  And I've never really asked him, what the hell did you do to this guy?
[30:45.810 --> 30:48.230]  Did he wake up naked in a football stadium?
[30:48.710 --> 30:50.730]  You've got to really be that paranoid.
[30:50.730 --> 30:51.910]  But that's what he was.
[30:52.930 --> 30:58.130]  You know, my luck came that I interviewed a lot of people who nobody had ever interviewed.
[30:58.370 --> 31:00.150]  I'd interviewed, you know, FidoNet was a network.
[31:00.390 --> 31:02.210]  And everyone had interviewed the guy who created the network.
[31:02.210 --> 31:03.810]  I interviewed the guy who we talked to.
[31:04.150 --> 31:08.550]  I called them my, oh, my God, it's that guy interviews.
[31:09.290 --> 31:12.670]  I'm just now working on a documentary about text adventures.
[31:13.050 --> 31:15.690]  It's called Get Lamp, Getlamp.com.
[31:15.690 --> 31:17.930]  And yes, those text adventures.
[31:18.130 --> 31:19.450]  I'm interviewing Infocom guys.
[31:19.570 --> 31:20.670]  I'm interviewing adventure guys.
[31:20.870 --> 31:27.650]  And after a number of efforts and going through his daughter, I have interviewed the man who created the Choose Your Own Adventure books.
[31:28.930 --> 31:29.410]  How?
[31:30.210 --> 31:30.690]  Persistence.
[31:30.810 --> 31:31.950]  And saying, I'm real.
[31:32.070 --> 31:32.610]  Here I am.
[31:32.690 --> 31:33.650]  Here's what's going on.
[31:33.730 --> 31:36.930]  And it took three months, but I got an interview with him.
[31:36.930 --> 31:40.810]  And whether or not that pans out to something is something else.
[31:40.970 --> 31:42.230]  But the point is, is I got it.
[31:42.330 --> 31:45.590]  And some people will go, oh, my God, it's the guy who made Choose Your Own Adventure books.
[31:45.710 --> 31:46.430]  That's the guy.
[31:47.270 --> 31:53.970]  You can't, you know, you can't ever act like, you know, professional documentary organized.
[31:54.190 --> 31:56.210]  That's a little bit different than what we're talking about here.
[31:56.970 --> 32:00.210]  I interviewed one fellow who had been interviewed by another group.
[32:01.170 --> 32:02.590]  I think it was either Discovery or something.
[32:02.870 --> 32:05.590]  The producer doesn't even come on the shoot anymore.
[32:05.910 --> 32:09.890]  The producer has a tap at their office with five screens.
[32:10.010 --> 32:14.230]  And there's teams traveling around the area that are doing shoots.
[32:14.330 --> 32:19.430]  And she's on a phone and switching between them and telling them where to aim the camera and which set of questions to ask.
[32:20.110 --> 32:29.710]  So the teams are pretty much autonomous, headless cyborgs coming in to ask you stupid-ass ten questions that they have listed and going away from you.
[32:29.990 --> 32:32.730]  You know, I saw the New York documentary and they had Donald Trump in it.
[32:32.870 --> 32:33.810]  He says one thing.
[32:34.170 --> 32:35.190]  Skyscrapers are good.
[32:36.130 --> 32:38.190]  And I'm thinking, it's f*cking Donald Trump.
[32:38.310 --> 32:39.750]  Ask him 20 minutes of questions.
[32:39.910 --> 32:40.330]  God damn it.
[32:40.390 --> 32:41.410]  And you'll never see that footage.
[32:41.770 --> 32:49.230]  Part of the reason why I am slowly uploading all 250 hours of my interviews up at the archive.org.
[32:49.230 --> 32:52.630]  Because I chose my five and a half hours.
[32:52.770 --> 32:57.930]  There's probably something in there for other people in the other 200 hours that they want to see.
[32:59.510 --> 33:02.590]  We are... we got pretty Jelloed.
[33:02.770 --> 33:07.230]  We're almost at... we're almost at the 50-minute mark.
[33:08.070 --> 33:11.490]  So we'll just mention one other bit, I think.
[33:11.690 --> 33:17.070]  Which is, my documentary is Creative Commons Attribution Sharealike 2.0 Licensed.
[33:18.290 --> 33:24.810]  And this gentleman has been putting his documentary up for you to download it, to comment on it.
[33:25.350 --> 33:28.010]  Which is not the standard operating procedure.
[33:28.830 --> 33:31.830]  Yeah, it's basically the way I have set it up.
[33:31.970 --> 33:33.730]  Mine's a donation-based model.
[33:33.730 --> 33:35.750]  So that you can go up, download the movie.
[33:36.210 --> 33:38.670]  If you like it, yeah, you know.
[33:39.290 --> 33:40.570]  I know you can donate a few bucks.
[33:40.830 --> 33:43.530]  That said, donation models don't really make a lot of money.
[33:45.650 --> 33:47.890]  I've done this for quite a while now.
[33:48.150 --> 33:53.010]  And one thing you want to do is, if you do go donation, is maybe perhaps give people incentive to donate.
[33:53.190 --> 34:00.930]  So for instance, a few months ago when I was releasing version 0.5 and 0.8 of the documentary, 0.8 is what I'm on right now.
[34:01.590 --> 34:02.730]  I said, you know what?
[34:02.870 --> 34:04.950]  Donate to me X amount of dollars.
[34:05.090 --> 34:05.650]  I think it was 10.
[34:05.670 --> 34:07.430]  And you get your name in the final credits.
[34:07.430 --> 34:14.710]  Well, the second after and a few digs later, I've got all these people donating to me $10 and not a cent more.
[34:14.930 --> 34:16.670]  Which is perfectly fine.
[34:16.930 --> 34:18.410]  And that's a good way to make money.
[34:18.850 --> 34:23.590]  But get it in your mind that donation is by love.
[34:23.850 --> 34:31.170]  You know, if you're small like me, for underground documentaries, donation is really just for a work of love.
[34:31.510 --> 34:33.290]  Mind you, you've got different experiences.
[34:33.290 --> 34:36.090]  Well, I'm older and I have a mortgage.
[34:36.550 --> 34:36.910]  Yeah.
[34:39.050 --> 34:42.790]  When I shot the film, like I said, I shot the film assuming it would make no money.
[34:42.970 --> 34:43.870]  This helped me a lot.
[34:45.150 --> 34:50.790]  Depending on if you talk to my accountant or me, my documentary cost different amounts of money.
[34:51.110 --> 34:55.930]  So let's go with non-recurring costs.
[34:55.990 --> 34:59.530]  That is to say, for instance, I wrote off my T1 line that goes to my house.
[34:59.530 --> 35:03.050]  So I probably would have had the T1 line anyway.
[35:03.410 --> 35:04.670]  I didn't need that for the documentary.
[35:04.910 --> 35:08.130]  Let's go with camera, equipment, travel, editing.
[35:08.490 --> 35:12.030]  I had six terabytes of hard drives.
[35:13.250 --> 35:15.670]  I did editing software and other things.
[35:15.790 --> 35:20.770]  So if you look at that production cost, the film cost about $24,000 to $25,000 to make.
[35:20.770 --> 35:26.030]  I spent $27,000 on DVD duplication and packaging.
[35:26.830 --> 35:27.730]  So whatever that is.
[35:28.270 --> 35:31.950]  I made that back in about four weeks after coming out.
[35:33.850 --> 35:34.910]  Because it's good.
[35:36.170 --> 35:37.010]  Trust me.
[35:38.690 --> 35:42.190]  Having said that, it was also available on the Pirate Bay within three weeks.
[35:42.370 --> 35:45.650]  And also people were telling me, you know, dude, that's so unfair.
[35:45.830 --> 35:46.910]  And I'm like, it's Creative Commons.
[35:47.070 --> 35:47.370]  Eat it.
[35:47.370 --> 35:50.490]  I get people who mail me from schools.
[35:50.670 --> 35:51.370]  And it depresses me.
[35:51.490 --> 35:53.570]  I got the Ontario school system, actually.
[35:53.770 --> 35:57.730]  Their acquisitions person mailed me and said, may we show this to children?
[35:58.510 --> 35:59.890]  Or do we have to pay a fee?
[36:01.030 --> 36:05.470]  And I was like, you can charge people to see it and raise money for your damn school.
[36:06.790 --> 36:09.590]  You know, I'm like, edit out the bad words.
[36:09.590 --> 36:11.430]  Because there's a few of them for some reason.
[36:11.630 --> 36:12.610]  Imagine that from me.
[36:13.350 --> 36:17.370]  You know, it's like, I get people who, there's some Trade Wars in it.
[36:17.450 --> 36:18.810]  It mentions this game called Trade Wars.
[36:18.950 --> 36:23.750]  Well, the Trade Wars fan site cut out just the Trade Wars part and put it up on their site.
[36:24.110 --> 36:24.690]  That's fine.
[36:24.790 --> 36:27.650]  I wouldn't want 50 people to buy it just for the Trade Wars part.
[36:27.750 --> 36:28.690]  They'd be pretty disappointed.
[36:29.630 --> 36:32.950]  Slogging through the other four hours looking for the Trade Wars part.
[36:33.190 --> 36:38.090]  Somebody uploaded four seconds of it to YouTube because he's in it.
[36:40.570 --> 36:44.410]  You go, BBS documentary on YouTube, you get four seconds of this dude.
[36:44.830 --> 36:46.270]  I actually interviewed people here.
[36:46.750 --> 36:48.810]  And everyone I interviewed, I gave them a free copy, right?
[36:48.910 --> 36:49.670]  That's how you do that.
[36:50.110 --> 36:54.770]  And I had pre-orders, which was part of why I made money, you know, so soon after it.
[36:54.850 --> 37:02.230]  Because I said, you know, if you believe in me, and this was somewhat an anti-piracy technique, I said, if you, oh, okay, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait.
[37:02.250 --> 37:04.890]  I fall into that f*cking language all the f*cking time.
[37:05.530 --> 37:11.550]  You can't, it's really hard to pirate a Creative Commons attribution share like 2.0 product.
[37:12.090 --> 37:18.830]  You've got to rip my name off it, claim you did it, you know, and not let anyone have it and own it and sell it to Sony.
[37:19.130 --> 37:23.030]  You've got to work really hard to kill the f*cking license, okay?
[37:23.250 --> 37:25.710]  So anyway, so people are like, hey, they're pirating it.
[37:25.790 --> 37:27.130]  I'm like, no, they really aren't.
[37:27.570 --> 37:29.410]  Or I'll tell people, it can't be pirated.
[37:29.670 --> 37:30.930]  And they're like, it's up on Pirate Bay.
[37:30.930 --> 37:31.730]  I'm like, doesn't count.
[37:36.330 --> 37:40.930]  Actually, there's like, it's funny because I got involved with the warez group that pirated me.
[37:42.490 --> 37:45.250]  Because I have the NFO printed up on my wall.
[37:45.670 --> 37:49.310]  And they basically pirated it or they put up the stuff.
[37:49.490 --> 37:53.210]  And I was like, you know, it's like you're stealing the sugar packets at a McDonald's.
[37:54.050 --> 37:57.430]  You know, you're really not, it's not really elite, dude.
[37:57.650 --> 37:59.290]  There's no protection on the thing, right?
[37:59.390 --> 38:03.370]  It costs money and ruins the disc to put protection on it.
[38:03.710 --> 38:05.630]  I could pay f*cking Macrovision.
[38:05.830 --> 38:11.490]  Like, I think it's like 35 cents a DVD for the right to make my DVD not work right.
[38:12.710 --> 38:14.010]  All right, so f*ck that noise.
[38:15.250 --> 38:18.470]  And I made sure, you know, it's funny when you shoot this stuff.
[38:18.590 --> 38:19.030]  And this is the thing.
[38:19.130 --> 38:19.950]  This is the important thing.
[38:20.070 --> 38:29.130]  When you're right at the end, as they say in the biz, when you're right to the short strokes, you want to not betray what you thought what you wanted to do when you got to the beginning.
[38:29.270 --> 38:32.370]  And by that I meant there's no menu you can't get out of.
[38:33.150 --> 38:35.010]  There's no logo you can't get out of.
[38:35.650 --> 38:36.670]  Everything's got chapters.
[38:37.090 --> 38:38.190]  Everything's got subtitles.
[38:38.710 --> 38:40.230]  Everything's got commentary tracks.
[38:40.610 --> 38:42.390]  Because it's like, damn it, I'm here.
[38:42.790 --> 38:44.690]  I'm gonna, you know, I spent four years on this bitch.
[38:44.830 --> 38:46.070]  I'm gonna finish this thing right.
[38:46.310 --> 38:47.110]  And that's important.
[38:47.190 --> 38:50.290]  You got to finish off what you're working on it and stay true to what you were believing in.
[38:50.410 --> 38:51.710]  That was an interesting rant.
[38:51.870 --> 38:52.370]  Sorry about that.
[38:52.510 --> 38:54.110]  I got all Jello inspired here.
[38:56.070 --> 38:58.290]  Don't use that microphone, okay?
[38:58.330 --> 38:59.150]  It's used.
[39:02.170 --> 39:03.510]  Anyway, he goats it.
[39:03.510 --> 39:06.870]  So, anyway, all that aside.
[39:07.290 --> 39:12.330]  Creative Commons licensing happened to work for me because it made Cory Doctorow jizz.
[39:12.930 --> 39:14.450]  And he mentioned it on Boing Boing.
[39:14.690 --> 39:16.270]  This got it mentioned on Slashdot.
[39:16.490 --> 39:18.350]  This got it mentioned on a bunch of other sites.
[39:18.750 --> 39:24.910]  And this, getting mentioned on Slashdot, even though everyone thinks of it as the tired old whore bag that nobody cares about anymore.
[39:25.470 --> 39:31.390]  If you get on Slashdot, I made $9,000 in one day off Slashdot selling this stuff.
[39:31.390 --> 39:34.490]  You get on Slashdot and then comes the second wave.
[39:34.650 --> 39:35.470]  Dig doesn't do this.
[39:35.590 --> 39:45.270]  There's a second wave of response where all these lazy ass reporters who browse Slashdot two days later come to you and say, so, it sounds kind of interesting.
[39:45.410 --> 39:46.210]  Can I interview you?
[39:46.570 --> 39:47.290]  CNET does this.
[39:47.390 --> 39:47.990]  Wired does this.
[39:48.090 --> 39:48.830]  A lot of them do this.
[39:48.930 --> 39:49.590]  Because it's easy, right?
[39:49.670 --> 39:50.370]  Read Slashdot.
[39:50.370 --> 39:52.590]  Hey, a guy was able to make a pumpkin look like Goetze.
[39:52.690 --> 39:53.470]  Let's go interview him.
[39:53.710 --> 39:54.510]  Hey, look at this guy.
[39:54.630 --> 39:56.490]  He's doing nothing but eating monkey chow for a week.
[39:56.670 --> 39:57.450]  Hey, look at this guy.
[39:57.590 --> 39:58.010]  He's over here.
[39:58.090 --> 39:59.050]  And that's what they do.
[39:59.250 --> 40:00.990]  Hey, guy made a documentary about bulletin boards.
[40:01.150 --> 40:02.230]  I wonder what those are.
[40:03.830 --> 40:04.150]  Piracy.
[40:04.290 --> 40:05.170]  I wonder what that is.
[40:05.650 --> 40:06.470]  Are you a pirate?
[40:06.690 --> 40:07.390]  Are you a ninja?
[40:09.290 --> 40:12.170]  So, you know, you can't discount that.
[40:12.410 --> 40:15.270]  Most of my promotion is through online.
[40:15.270 --> 40:16.590]  I have a documentary.
[40:17.510 --> 40:18.250]  What was that?
[40:18.730 --> 40:19.790]  I can't even read that.
[40:19.930 --> 40:21.210]  That means stop talking.
[40:22.050 --> 40:22.790]  Ten minutes.
[40:22.910 --> 40:23.610]  Ten minutes.
[40:23.730 --> 40:24.270]  Ten minutes.
[40:24.490 --> 40:25.990]  You go ahead and talk for a while.
[40:26.110 --> 40:26.770]  I'm on Motor Muff.
[40:26.970 --> 40:27.330]  Okay.
[40:27.470 --> 40:31.050]  Well, what I wanted to get to you guys is that you can never go too big.
[40:31.350 --> 40:35.950]  So, a lot of people and a lot of corporations especially, because this was my expertise throughout this.
[40:36.870 --> 40:41.410]  They think that because they don't have their phone number out there that you won't get in touch with them.
[40:41.410 --> 40:46.230]  And that if you do so happen to get in touch with them, then you must be someone who's legit.
[40:46.970 --> 40:48.450]  So, 411 is your friend.
[40:48.690 --> 40:55.150]  And, uh, you go to a website, let's say, uh, or some organization that starts, or that rhymes with, uh, Microsoft.
[40:55.830 --> 41:01.310]  And you go, so you go there and, uh, let's say they don't have contact info, but they have their address.
[41:01.670 --> 41:07.770]  Well, you basically put that in 411, reverse lookup, and there's their phone number.
[41:07.890 --> 41:09.610]  You call them up and it's their direct line.
[41:09.930 --> 41:10.710]  That helps.
[41:10.710 --> 41:13.010]  Google is also your friend, right?
[41:13.250 --> 41:15.890]  The, uh, RIAA has no numbers on their website.
[41:16.090 --> 41:18.910]  But you go to Google, do a quick search, and bang.
[41:19.070 --> 41:20.550]  First result, RIAA.
[41:20.690 --> 41:28.030]  You call it up, and within 10 seconds of calling up the first number that came up on that search, it was on a form somewhere, someone had done the work for me.
[41:28.170 --> 41:28.330]  Sorry.
[41:28.690 --> 41:29.390]  Running out of air.
[41:29.790 --> 41:36.730]  Um, you go there, you call them up, and before you know it, you're in contact with the media relations person at, uh, what did I say?
[41:37.090 --> 41:37.450]  RIAA.
[41:39.150 --> 41:40.850]  Goatf*ckers Incorporated, I think is their American name.
[41:42.290 --> 41:43.470]  Goatf*ckers Incorporated, or is it limited?
[41:43.710 --> 41:44.670]  Is it Goatf*ckers Limited?
[41:45.730 --> 41:46.050]  Sorry.
[41:46.410 --> 41:47.770]  I can't comment, right?
[41:48.270 --> 41:50.710]  But, uh, so yeah, it's, you can never go too big.
[41:50.810 --> 41:53.530]  And a lot of people are gonna say yes, and it's gonna surprise you.
[41:53.530 --> 42:02.210]  And, like, individuals are a lot more easy, like, uh, you know, I, I took all this time to contact corporations, and then I email, for example, Michael Geist.
[42:02.370 --> 42:03.590]  And then he's like, oh yeah, sure.
[42:04.790 --> 42:05.190]  Awesome.
[42:05.450 --> 42:05.810]  Right?
[42:06.470 --> 42:11.370]  And another thing that I, I forgot to say that you should always do is that, um, email tends not to work.
[42:11.490 --> 42:14.850]  So if you, for corporations, at least they'll, it's gone.
[42:15.090 --> 42:18.170]  But if you call them, then they actually, you get someone.
[42:18.170 --> 42:21.850]  And that sort of pushes them a bit to actually get back in touch with you.
[42:21.970 --> 42:26.090]  And you have to call, call, I don't know if you can hear this on the mic, but call again.
[42:26.510 --> 42:29.110]  Because, uh, they're lazy, for the most part.
[42:29.230 --> 42:31.390]  Or they're extremely busy, I prefer to think they're lazy.
[42:31.870 --> 42:36.210]  And, uh, they'll get back to you if you're annoying enough to them.
[42:36.550 --> 42:37.890]  So, definitely call.
[42:38.570 --> 42:39.270]  Email's bad.
[42:40.330 --> 42:44.210]  That's pretty much all I can think of when it comes to contacting large corporations.
[42:44.850 --> 42:50.070]  So, you're saying persistence, dedication, and strength, which should come as a great shock to people.
[42:50.470 --> 42:51.310]  Yes, most definitely.
[42:51.470 --> 42:53.450]  Oh, and make yourself sound professional, too, right?
[42:53.750 --> 43:01.610]  If you say, like, yeah, uh, I'm, like, uh, doing a documentary on, like, uh, and that's the phone call and you're somewhat in trouble.
[43:02.030 --> 43:04.590]  But, uh, what I did, for instance, is for my cell phone, right?
[43:04.690 --> 43:06.870]  I, I changed my voice box thing.
[43:07.070 --> 43:13.590]  So, instead of saying, hey, this is Julian McArdle, blah, blah, blah, I started saying, hey, I'm Celsius Studios, to make myself more professional.
[43:13.590 --> 43:17.890]  And, again, it's a great surprise when they see you walking, this 20-year-old walking into the room.
[43:18.010 --> 43:19.030]  They're like, who the f*ck are you?
[43:19.250 --> 43:20.690]  But, hey, it helps.
[43:20.710 --> 43:21.950]  And, it's all for that image.
[43:22.070 --> 43:22.750]  Sound professional.
[43:22.890 --> 43:24.530]  Sound like they want you to be interested.
[43:24.750 --> 43:26.670]  And, also, be their best friend.
[43:26.890 --> 43:33.110]  And, you have to really, especially with corporations, you have to somewhat be of the same perspective as they are.
[43:33.150 --> 43:37.210]  And, that's not to say that I'm of a different perspective than anyone I interviewed.
[43:39.050 --> 43:42.390]  But, you have to be real nice and suck up a lot.
[43:42.390 --> 43:49.410]  Being compatible is not, you know, I really can't watch the last ten minutes of Bowling for Columbine anymore.
[43:49.730 --> 43:55.370]  Because, all it is, is a bum rush.
[43:55.970 --> 43:56.310]  You know?
[43:56.490 --> 43:59.830]  It's basically where you had ten questions that you wanted to hit on somebody.
[43:59.990 --> 44:01.910]  The guy lets you into his f*cking house.
[44:02.270 --> 44:04.990]  And, you f*cking bum rush him with five questions.
[44:05.170 --> 44:06.450]  I understand why this was done.
[44:06.610 --> 44:07.770]  I understand how it's compelling.
[44:08.050 --> 44:09.370]  But, I can't watch it anymore.
[44:09.370 --> 44:10.510]  There's another thing on that.
[44:10.750 --> 44:11.150]  Well, what?
[44:11.470 --> 44:12.170]  Well, I was going to say...
[44:12.170 --> 44:15.190]  Well, if we start talking about Bowling for Columbine, we'll Jello everybody.
[44:15.370 --> 44:15.890]  Let's not do that.
[44:15.950 --> 44:16.370]  No, no.
[44:16.490 --> 44:16.970]  I didn't mean.
[44:17.070 --> 44:18.310]  I meant on bum rushing people.
[44:18.490 --> 44:19.490]  Oh, bum rushing, yes.
[44:19.950 --> 44:20.430]  Bum rushing.
[44:20.450 --> 44:21.370]  There's no need to do that.
[44:21.690 --> 44:28.970]  If you contact someone, you can ask people very difficult questions without wording it as such.
[44:29.150 --> 44:30.330]  Because, people are smart.
[44:30.330 --> 44:36.390]  And, if you word questions intelligently, they'll be willing to answer even if they're really, really tough questions.
[44:36.790 --> 44:39.050]  So, you don't have to go the whole bum rush.
[44:39.130 --> 44:42.530]  That's only if you want to go for that kind of attitude.
[44:42.690 --> 44:49.390]  But, you are fully free to ask attack style questions to people if you word them in a nice and intelligent manner.
[44:49.490 --> 44:55.970]  And, you'll get the same reply minus the deer in headlights response that, you know, are you a cocksucking bitch?
[44:56.250 --> 44:56.830]  And then they're like, what?
[44:57.390 --> 45:02.170]  Well, it works better if you ask, are you a homosexual that someone, you know, or...
[45:02.170 --> 45:02.650]  There's a...
[45:02.650 --> 45:03.890]  Well, there's a...
[45:03.890 --> 45:04.870]  That's a bad example.
[45:04.890 --> 45:05.270]  There's a film...
[45:05.270 --> 45:06.690]  Okay, here's...
[45:07.170 --> 45:09.150]  Actually, if you want a good example, there's one called...
[45:09.150 --> 45:12.430]  There's a film out there which is horrible called The God Who Wasn't There.
[45:13.390 --> 45:13.790]  It's...
[45:13.790 --> 45:18.750]  I got it from my atheist friend and we sat down with it hoping that we were going to kick God in the nuts for 45 minutes.
[45:18.750 --> 45:24.790]  But, it turned out that what it mostly was was I had a really bad time in parochial school.
[45:25.330 --> 45:32.510]  So, he went back and got an interview with his principal and he starts hitting him up with obscure biblical questions and quandaries.
[45:32.830 --> 45:34.590]  And his principal is like...
[45:34.590 --> 45:36.930]  And his principal is literally appealing to him.
[45:37.070 --> 45:40.670]  Like, Michael, you didn't tell me this is what we were going to talk about.
[45:40.890 --> 45:45.270]  Not, oh my God, the hidden story of God, but more like, Michael, what the f*ck?
[45:46.990 --> 45:50.090]  I mean, like, you know, I don't think we're going to keep this interview...
[45:50.090 --> 45:51.870]  And he includes all this, this is why I know this, right?
[45:51.970 --> 45:52.430]  Oh, we're not going to...
[45:52.430 --> 45:55.290]  And it's like, you showed the man, you asshole.
[45:55.550 --> 45:57.730]  So, there's different ways you could tell a story.
[45:57.930 --> 46:02.450]  And, you know, it's a really bad sign when people don't like the filmmaker at the end of it.
[46:03.930 --> 46:05.710]  You've not done your job.
[46:06.110 --> 46:09.930]  Or at least, at the very least, maybe you've done the job as well as you're capable of doing.
[46:10.110 --> 46:12.450]  And you need to realize that this maybe shouldn't be your job.
[46:14.210 --> 46:15.510]  That's a downer to go off on.
[46:15.590 --> 46:16.130]  Let's go on something.
[46:16.710 --> 46:19.590]  There's a bunch of people who are coming in to talk to find out about how the net did.
[46:19.790 --> 46:24.550]  So, let's just say my documentary that I worked on was BBS the documentary.
[46:24.790 --> 46:27.370]  That's BBS documentary, like bulletin board system.
[46:27.650 --> 46:32.570]  I'm working on a documentary now called Get Lamp, which is GetLamp.com.
[46:32.750 --> 46:37.010]  And I'm working on a documentary because I'm shooting in high definition.
[46:37.230 --> 46:39.550]  Yes, I'm doing a documentary in text adventures in high definition.
[46:42.470 --> 46:44.410]  And the camera cost me six grand.
[46:44.830 --> 46:45.710]  It's worth it.
[46:45.970 --> 46:47.350]  But six goddamn grand.
[46:47.650 --> 46:50.290]  So, I'm shooting a documentary on arcades as well.
[46:50.390 --> 46:51.770]  So, I have something to do in the off hours.
[46:51.970 --> 46:53.730]  So, anyway, ArcadeDocumentary.com.
[46:53.830 --> 46:54.630]  Tell them about your thing.
[46:54.790 --> 46:57.570]  Okay, so I'm PiracyDocumentary.com.
[46:58.050 --> 47:01.030]  And I'm working on a fictional hacker movie after that.
[47:01.210 --> 47:03.370]  But no talk about that until this is done.
[47:03.370 --> 47:05.130]  And right before I sign up, just a note.
[47:05.290 --> 47:08.490]  Sorry to all children, jews, and gay people.
[47:08.650 --> 47:09.130]  Sorry about that.
[47:09.230 --> 47:10.690]  That was...
[47:11.790 --> 47:12.810]  God will punish you.
[47:12.830 --> 47:14.110]  This only makes it worse.
[47:17.070 --> 47:19.730]  Sorry to all jews is an excellent way to end a talk.
[47:19.910 --> 47:20.570]  Excellent work.
[47:26.280 --> 47:28.120]  We'll answer questions in the back.
[47:28.120 --> 47:31.320]  And for some reason, I might have a few of my documentary for sale maybe.
[47:31.460 --> 47:31.840]  But something.
[47:31.960 --> 47:35.120]  We'll happily talk to you in that little area over here while they do the talk here.
[47:35.240 --> 47:37.020]  So, thank you very much for all sitting down.
[47:37.020 --> 47:37.260]  Thank you very much for feeling the... and Sunriver Council.
[47:37.660 --> 47:37.900]  Thank you very much.