[00:00.000 --> 00:02.740]  So we've got to look at why we're going over to digital radio.
[00:03.720 --> 00:08.660]  In many ways, there isn't much of a problem with FM or AM.
[00:09.020 --> 00:15.060]  You can listen to it, and certainly on FM, generally, you know, it's good audio, people are happy.
[00:15.240 --> 00:18.120]  AM, you know, it can be a bit hissy.
[00:18.920 --> 00:30.900]  But digital radio allows us to reconstruct the signal, so if there are any errors which occur due to bad reception, we can then error-correct them in fairly standard ways now.
[00:31.520 --> 00:40.740]  And therefore, what you're listening to is exactly what they put into the transmitter, meaning you have got rid of all of your reception problems, no more hiss.
[00:40.740 --> 00:44.260]  You know, even on FM, you've got a good signal in the middle of a song.
[00:45.040 --> 00:51.100]  If it goes quiet, then you can hear the hiss of... you can often hear the hiss of the signal.
[00:51.420 --> 00:54.340]  And so to get rid of that is actually quite a good idea.
[00:54.720 --> 01:03.140]  And if you can bring in any other enhancements like better frequency response, then that's a good plan.
[01:04.180 --> 01:08.240]  With digital radio, we can often increase the amount of channels available.
[01:08.620 --> 01:11.560]  And so a big push is the amount of choice.
[01:11.800 --> 01:21.720]  And also, because it's digital, you can send extra data along to say just what the channel name is, rather than just tuning into 92.6 and hoping you find something.
[01:26.450 --> 01:30.610]  So, to get digital radio, you can look at it in a very simple way.
[01:30.790 --> 01:32.550]  You need to compress the audio.
[01:33.150 --> 01:37.610]  Coming out of the studio, you've got, you know, basically CD sound.
[01:37.850 --> 01:40.170]  Possibly better than that, depending on how you've sampled it.
[01:40.330 --> 01:46.530]  If it's a digital studio, you might have essentially two megabits a second of audio.
[01:46.770 --> 01:48.870]  And realistically, you can't transmit that.
[01:49.010 --> 01:52.350]  So, a lossy compression has to come in somewhere nowadays.
[01:53.590 --> 02:04.950]  Then, once you've done that, you can combine it with your extra data, say what the song name is, put the telephone number in, traffic reports, and stuff like that, to give, so you can pick that up on your radio.
[02:06.270 --> 02:10.890]  And you'll need a bit of signalling data to control the stream.
[02:11.110 --> 02:17.590]  And then you stick it on the airwaves with OFDM, which we're going to come up to in a bit.
[02:17.890 --> 02:21.870]  So, it can be quite simple from that perspective on the very high level.
[02:23.110 --> 02:26.290]  And so, we've got to look at, how exactly are we going to do this?
[02:26.690 --> 02:28.090]  Where are we going to put the data?
[02:28.610 --> 02:33.230]  Once we've got our data ready to send, are we going to use the same frequencies?
[02:33.230 --> 02:35.830]  Are we going to send it off to some other frequencies?
[02:36.970 --> 02:50.730]  In-band on-channel, or IBOC for short, is when you've got your FM station, or your AM station, and you decide that you're going to send a digital signal on the same channel.
[02:51.250 --> 02:57.070]  So, you tune into 740 kilohertz, and you can listen to analog, or you can listen to digital.
[02:58.610 --> 03:09.250]  Whereas, in many other parts of the world, what we've decided to do is basically start again, have a totally different frequency band, and then you can transmit your radio up there.
[03:09.430 --> 03:12.270]  You don't have to worry about forwards or backwards compatibility.
[03:12.270 --> 03:15.050]  You've got your analog down, where it's always been.
[03:15.310 --> 03:16.550]  You've got your new digital.
[03:16.790 --> 03:22.670]  And one day, when everybody's using digital, you switch off the analog, or at least you reduce the amount of bandwidth that you're using.
[03:23.030 --> 03:29.790]  And obviously, that's a good plan as far as governments are concerned, because they like making lots of money by selling off parts of the spectrum.
[03:31.230 --> 03:35.090]  But over here, that's not what you've decided to do.
[03:35.090 --> 03:45.210]  The SCC has chosen to broadcast using IBOC, so you're sending the audio analog along with the digital.
[03:46.750 --> 03:59.070]  This is... one of the big reasons is that the new frequencies, which we're using over in Europe, are already allocated to the military here, and are unwilling to share them, unsurprisingly.
[03:59.070 --> 04:06.270]  So, that's one reason why you can't use the L-band, which is a higher frequency range.
[04:06.730 --> 04:12.390]  And so, that's why IBOC's become popular over here.
[04:12.830 --> 04:15.870]  But also, stations were concerned about losing their branding.
[04:16.230 --> 04:26.910]  If you've based everything around the fact that you're WZZZ on 740, and you've used that for years and years, then it can be an issue when you're changing over.
[04:29.920 --> 04:33.800]  HD radio is the name of what's been selected over here.
[04:35.080 --> 04:37.820]  IBOC is simply an idea, a way of going about things.
[04:38.880 --> 04:44.920]  You... it's just simply saying that you're using the same channel for two sets of signals.
[04:46.100 --> 04:52.540]  HD radio is a trademark of Ibiquity, whose company that's come up with it.
[04:53.280 --> 05:01.240]  And that is specifically... that sets out the whole nature of how the digital radio signal is put together.
[05:01.660 --> 05:07.760]  So, you can have all sorts of different types of IBOC, but you've got to go with HD radio here if you want to listen to it.
[05:10.120 --> 05:18.160]  HD radio is enshrined now in some standards by NRSC 5A, the National Radio Systems Committee.
[05:18.160 --> 05:22.260]  It's now in the standards, and that's setting out exactly how to frame your data.
[05:23.420 --> 05:29.940]  But notably, it doesn't mention... or it does mention, it doesn't specify the codec that's needed.
[05:30.420 --> 05:36.480]  Within the standard, the audio codec used for the compression is not explained.
[05:36.860 --> 05:44.880]  And that's because it's a proprietary codec owned by Ibiquity, which is the company that's come up with HD radio.
[05:44.880 --> 05:48.120]  I think they've got 52 patents against it.
[05:48.300 --> 05:50.560]  And as such, it's a trade secret.
[05:50.960 --> 05:58.180]  This means that the whole of HD radio is relying upon this proprietary codec.
[06:00.740 --> 06:05.580]  The HD, incidentally, in HD radio, apparently doesn't stand for high definition.
[06:05.940 --> 06:08.480]  Many people will refer to it as such.
[06:08.760 --> 06:15.220]  But both the CEO and the marketing manager have come out and said, no, HD stands for HD.
[06:15.720 --> 06:20.800]  And the marketing director said HD stands for nothing, which is intriguing.
[06:21.980 --> 06:28.220]  Clear Channel and NPR and all that, the big players, are backing HD radio and Ibiquity.
[06:28.540 --> 06:30.020]  And that makes sense.
[06:30.540 --> 06:34.360]  Obviously, I'm going to go on and say that there are good things and bad things about HD radio.
[06:34.600 --> 06:39.860]  But essentially, the FCC has chosen to go with the in-band transmissions.
[06:40.080 --> 06:42.920]  And you've got to... that's already limiting what you can do.
[06:42.920 --> 06:56.340]  And so, really, it's just to say, you know, as much as, you know, I may criticize HD radio, the fact that Clear Channel and NPR and many other people behind it is just showing that they're realizing that, you know, this is...
[06:56.340 --> 06:58.540]  we've got to go forward and stick with one thing.
[07:00.600 --> 07:04.080]  So, I'm just going to play a sample of HD radio directly from the website.
[07:04.280 --> 07:08.200]  When you listen to jazz on your AM radio, are you tired of listening to this?
[07:10.660 --> 07:13.140]  This is Ibiquity themselves saying this.
[07:15.660 --> 07:17.300]  I'll give you an example of AM radio.
[07:26.660 --> 07:29.620]  And you should be able to hear that there's a lot more frequencies.
[07:30.120 --> 07:34.040]  I don't know exactly where they cut it off, but I think they replicate up to 15kHz.
[07:34.320 --> 07:36.820]  And typically, with AM, you only get about 5.
[07:38.360 --> 07:39.880]  And it does sound quite good.
[07:40.700 --> 07:42.960]  You're going to love HD radio.
[07:43.340 --> 07:45.060]  Do you want to listen to this?
[07:52.590 --> 07:53.530]  Or this?
[08:02.930 --> 08:07.070]  Obviously, having come from their website, they've...
[08:07.070 --> 08:08.650]  I'm sure it's well produced.
[08:09.110 --> 08:22.950]  But it does show, you know, however biased that particular sample was, it does show specifically for AM that HD radio does allow you to hear a lot more audio.
[08:24.430 --> 08:29.010]  As I say, I think they've either got 15 or 20kHz, which is a lot more than normal.
[08:29.310 --> 08:32.030]  And so for AM, it does certainly mean that you can...
[08:32.030 --> 08:34.710]  It's a lot more like listening to normal FM.
[08:34.930 --> 08:42.690]  The whole goal of HD radio is to bring FM radio up to near CD quality standard.
[08:43.710 --> 08:49.770]  And the idea of the enhancement of AM is to bring it up to approximately an FM standard.
[08:50.070 --> 08:51.550]  So we're moving the bar up.
[08:51.710 --> 08:58.970]  But of course, that means that for FM radio stations, it's not always easy to hear the difference between the two samples.
[08:58.970 --> 09:02.990]  I specifically chose AM, though, because it is easy to hear, especially over this kind of system.
[09:04.830 --> 09:06.710]  It's quite obvious that there's a benefit.
[09:07.410 --> 09:08.750]  You know, there are downsides.
[09:09.910 --> 09:13.930]  They have very little data to work with.
[09:14.390 --> 09:15.930]  I'll come to that in a moment, actually.
[09:17.350 --> 09:19.090]  So let's just look at how it works.
[09:19.170 --> 09:23.310]  We've got analog radio, which sits in for AM.
[09:23.310 --> 09:25.370]  It's about 10kHz over here.
[09:25.510 --> 09:28.030]  And that's the amount of bandwidth you've got to play with.
[09:29.830 --> 09:38.570]  When you have analog transmissions, most of the power of the transmission, and therefore most of the information, is at the center of the channel.
[09:38.850 --> 09:45.910]  So if you're tuned into 740, then that's where all of the power is, even though you have 10kHz bandwidth.
[09:46.230 --> 09:55.710]  So at the sides, the edges of your allocated channel, you're not really using much of those frequencies at all.
[09:57.530 --> 10:00.310]  And so they've used this idea.
[10:00.930 --> 10:02.210]  Let's go on to this, actually.
[10:02.850 --> 10:13.610]  They've used this idea of, on the outside, not using much of the bandwidth to put the digital information on the outside.
[10:14.490 --> 10:17.390]  This is an FM example.
[10:18.330 --> 10:22.190]  A triangle in the middle is the normal analog, and at the sides, you've got the digital.
[10:23.710 --> 10:28.470]  And so being at the sides, it doesn't really interfere much with the original signal.
[10:32.980 --> 10:37.700]  This is what we call hybrid mode, where you are putting the two together.
[10:38.120 --> 10:42.900]  HD radio has the capability to go completely digital, and you switch off the analog totally.
[10:43.900 --> 10:47.600]  And obviously that frees up more space to use for the digital channel.
[10:49.800 --> 10:56.380]  Putting digital on the outside gives you about, on FM, it gives you about 96kbps.
[10:57.220 --> 11:00.460]  And for AM, it's around 32, 36.
[11:00.760 --> 11:04.740]  It all depends on how you use it, error correction and things like that.
[11:05.300 --> 11:07.620]  So, as you can see, it's not very much to play with.
[11:08.420 --> 11:14.640]  I remember in the early days of MP3s, even 128kbps standing a bit dodgy.
[11:14.840 --> 11:19.120]  That's come on though, and that's improved.
[11:20.500 --> 11:22.820]  It's enough to get...
[11:23.740 --> 11:29.300]  The amount of bandwidth is enough to get some decent quality sound down there.
[11:29.300 --> 11:37.060]  But being such a low bit rate, there is obviously a lot of replication and artifacts which come through.
[11:40.550 --> 11:49.310]  The whole idea of putting digital information at the sides of the carrier is a good one.
[11:49.310 --> 11:55.210]  Although, in AM, they've chosen to put it a bit beyond the original channel.
[11:55.390 --> 11:59.810]  As I say, you've got 10kHz bandwidth, but they've actually increased that.
[11:59.810 --> 12:04.310]  And so, it will overspill up to...
[12:04.310 --> 12:07.750]  They're using 15kHz, plus or minus 15kHz.
[12:07.910 --> 12:22.190]  Which means that if you're listening to a radio station, and then there's one right in the next frequency, which is using digital, then that can interfere with your current station.
[12:22.650 --> 12:23.730]  We'll come on to that.
[12:23.930 --> 12:25.630]  Driven by what's inside.
[12:25.630 --> 12:26.630]  Here's another sample.
[12:29.010 --> 12:30.290]  I'll play it in a moment.
[12:31.210 --> 12:34.950]  This one, I believe, is supposed to be driving through Lincoln Tunnel.
[12:35.890 --> 12:46.250]  The idea is that in the tunnel, you've got a leaky coax system, which is a cable which you put your radio signal down.
[12:46.490 --> 12:51.150]  And you specifically make it a not very good cable, so that the signal leaks out.
[12:51.150 --> 12:56.430]  And you can put that in your tunnel and maintain AM radio while you're driving through the tunnel.
[12:57.670 --> 12:59.390]  That's not as good as the normal AM.
[12:59.670 --> 13:09.690]  And so, in this particular sample, what you'll hear is a person driving through the tunnel, listening to the tunnel version of the AM radio.
[13:09.930 --> 13:11.210]  Then they come out of the tunnel.
[13:11.210 --> 13:16.590]  You can hear an improvement in the sound as they come and start listening to AM in the normal way.
[13:16.730 --> 13:18.810]  And then you hear the HD radio kicking.
[13:19.370 --> 13:21.610]  And so, listen out for those transitions.
[13:22.770 --> 13:25.090]  Driven by what's inside.
[13:31.790 --> 13:34.970]  And now four till nine o'clock on this Friday morning.
[13:35.250 --> 13:35.970]  It's the 5th of March.
[13:36.270 --> 13:39.890]  And welcome again to the WOR Morning Show with Ed Walsh and Dara Wells.
[13:40.090 --> 13:42.450]  In for Joe Bartlett, of course, George Reed.
[13:42.490 --> 13:44.430]  And we're here for another big hour.
[13:44.450 --> 13:47.570]  And then I'll be back tomorrow morning along with Rose Zambrino.
[13:47.790 --> 13:50.730]  So I think all of those transitions were fairly obvious.
[13:52.010 --> 13:57.010]  And so, again, you can hear that it is actually helping.
[13:57.270 --> 14:03.290]  And the AM HD radio does actually sound fairly good in comparison.
[14:03.690 --> 14:07.470]  I want to touch on OFDM, which is Orthogonal Frequency Division Multiplexing.
[14:08.330 --> 14:15.890]  It's essentially a really good way of getting data from one place to the other.
[14:15.890 --> 14:26.410]  It's used in ADSL, but it is also used over the air for digital channels, both in TV and radio, all over the world.
[14:26.990 --> 14:34.370]  The whole point is that if you've got bad reception, however good your reception is, there will be some impairment.
[14:34.690 --> 14:45.630]  And as such, you don't want to put the whole load of data on one channel, on one carrier, because if some of that gets corrupted, then you lose a lot.
[14:45.850 --> 14:55.190]  The idea here is you have lots of small carriers, thousands of individual signals, which are sending data at quite a low bit rate.
[14:55.630 --> 14:59.110]  But, of course, totaled together, that is a significant amount of data.
[14:59.590 --> 15:05.430]  And so if you lose one or two of those carriers or those signals, then you've only lost a few bits of data.
[15:05.430 --> 15:23.870]  And if you then, before you, if you then scramble your data before you send it, to make it pseudo-random, and interleave it so that you, instead of sending bits one, two, three, four, five, you send bits four after you send bits six and all that kind of stuff,
[15:24.470 --> 15:39.390]  you then, when you come to recreate or reassemble your data at the other end, any problems which have affected any of the channels, they're distributed throughout the data that are only small little gaps.
[15:39.650 --> 15:41.390]  And error correction can cope with small gaps.
[15:41.550 --> 15:44.330]  If you had a long gap, then that would be a problem.
[15:45.110 --> 15:46.670]  Here's a kind of example.
[15:46.850 --> 15:53.530]  You get the idea of, through frequency, there's lots of very small little carriers there.
[15:53.530 --> 15:56.030]  And so they're all totaled together.
[15:58.330 --> 16:05.010]  I think HC radio uses about 300, these very small carriers.
[16:10.320 --> 16:13.060]  I'll just go on to reception issues.
[16:15.000 --> 16:20.720]  We... I was mentioning earlier about the problem of adjacent channels.
[16:20.720 --> 16:23.520]  And this is particularly important on AM at night.
[16:25.580 --> 16:31.060]  It's quite popular to listen to radio stations which aren't in your local area.
[16:32.380 --> 16:38.060]  Essentially, if you're near enough to another city, it can kind of double your choice of radio stations.
[16:38.360 --> 16:39.740]  So often you'll have something...
[16:39.740 --> 16:40.660]  Let's say you have...
[16:40.660 --> 16:44.920]  Here the example is WYY on 740 kHz.
[16:45.340 --> 16:53.740]  Then there'll be a gap in your local radio, and then perhaps at 760, you'll have another station, and you'll listen to those.
[16:54.080 --> 17:00.780]  But then at night, the properties of the atmosphere change, and you can actually receive radio from further away.
[17:02.540 --> 17:08.200]  That's called skywave propagation because you're no longer getting it directly from the transmitter.
[17:08.420 --> 17:10.440]  It's going up and bouncing down.
[17:11.060 --> 17:13.460]  And all of a sudden, then you can...
[17:13.460 --> 17:16.340]  Then you get one on 750, which is in the middle of your two channels.
[17:18.760 --> 17:20.260]  And so that's fine.
[17:20.260 --> 17:33.180]  You can listen to the station on 750, and as long as you've got good enough reception and you can put it with a few whistles and a bit of fading, which a lot of people do, then that's good.
[17:33.740 --> 17:49.980]  But unfortunately, if your local station is using HD radio, then all of the digital noise, essentially, that it's putting out will actually go over the channel on 750 that you want to listen to, coming from a long distance away.
[17:50.480 --> 17:58.580]  So that's why HD radio is not permitted to be used on AM currently during the nighttime.
[17:58.820 --> 18:02.150]  And all stations will switch it off, I think, at sundown.
[18:04.650 --> 18:09.230]  I've got an example now of the interference.
[18:10.290 --> 18:12.150]  So let's just take a quick listen to that.
[18:14.470 --> 18:17.250]  First, what should be an easy one...
[18:17.250 --> 18:18.050]  Except the volume.
[18:18.470 --> 18:27.890]  ...KFI, a powerhouse out here, except when Kehow, 250 miles away in Denver, on 630, is operating IBOC.
[18:28.150 --> 18:31.310]  Here's 640 at 6:03 PM.
[18:31.310 --> 18:36.510]  Five seconds into this recording, you'll hear the IBOC switch off in Denver.
[18:50.550 --> 18:52.910]  660 should be pretty good here.
[18:53.090 --> 18:57.110]  We're about 250 miles from the 50-kilowater in Window Rock.
[18:57.290 --> 19:04.850]  This time, we're listening as 670 Denver, first adjacent, shuts off its IBOC.
[19:05.050 --> 19:06.410]  Here is 660.
[19:24.660 --> 19:35.660]  So you can hear that initially, basically, it's just white noise, and quite loud white noise, actually, which can totally obliterate any not even long-distance radio stations.
[19:36.280 --> 19:38.760]  And so that is a big problem.
[19:40.080 --> 19:42.060]  Sorry, here's another example.
[19:42.080 --> 19:46.420]  Another byproduct of IBOC is the noise it adds to the IBOC station's own main channel.
[19:46.640 --> 19:52.520]  And that noise level is added to what once might have been a very quiet analog signal.
[19:52.740 --> 19:57.340]  Depends on how well both the station's sidebands match.
[19:57.880 --> 20:04.000]  Anything disturbing the linearity of the station's reception will add noise to the main signal.
[20:04.000 --> 20:07.020]  KOA is a very well-engineered station.
[20:07.220 --> 20:10.100]  And everything leaves the tower in a linear fashion.
[20:10.520 --> 20:13.240]  But propagation can mess up the signal.
[20:13.600 --> 20:19.740]  And if it isn't linear when it gets to the receiver, why, the IBOC actually degrades the main channel.
[20:20.060 --> 20:26.500]  Listen to the hiss level from IBOC change with typical variations in reception condition.
[20:26.500 --> 20:28.320]  We're monitoring KOA.
[20:28.640 --> 20:31.660]  You'll note the actual station audio doesn't change.
[20:31.860 --> 20:35.560]  Only the hiss level in relation to the voice.
[20:36.100 --> 20:38.740]  KOA during daytime IBOC.
[20:38.920 --> 20:41.480]  The hiss generated by the digital signal.
[20:41.480 --> 20:46.080]  The Pentagon has been involved in domestic law enforcement.
[20:47.940 --> 20:56.480]  Indeed, defense officials continue to stress that they intend for the troops to play a largely supporting role in homeland emergencies.
[20:56.760 --> 21:02.960]  But the new plans provide what several senior officers acknowledge is the likelihood the military will have to take charge.
[21:03.620 --> 21:11.820]  In my estimation of a biochemical nuclear attack at any of the 50 states, the Department of Defense is best positioned.
[21:12.720 --> 21:14.200]  And will take the lead.
[21:15.280 --> 21:18.520]  Said one, I guess, one source who has drafted this.
[21:18.720 --> 21:20.280]  The military again devised its...
[21:20.280 --> 21:22.860]  So you can hear that's coming into play.
[21:22.940 --> 21:25.520]  And that's essentially even on the same channel listening in analog.
[21:25.840 --> 21:28.000]  You start to hear the digital creep in.
[21:28.640 --> 21:33.920]  Now, you know, this is mainly but not exclusively a problem on AM.
[21:34.120 --> 21:36.480]  And it is a problem when you're listening to analog.
[21:36.840 --> 21:48.680]  So theoretically in the future, when stations don't broadcast in analog, or at least if they do broadcast in analog when everybody's listening to HD, these problems go away.
[21:49.380 --> 21:57.680]  And certainly when they turn off their analog transmissions, then, you know, this is no longer too much of an issue anymore.
[22:01.080 --> 22:04.320]  I've just got another reception sample here, actually.
[22:10.500 --> 22:11.340]  No, I don't.
[22:11.960 --> 22:13.320]  That one's coming later, actually.
[22:15.820 --> 22:19.000]  So let's have a look at what the options elsewhere.
[22:20.300 --> 22:31.360]  DAB is also called Eureka 147, is the system that we use in Europe and the UK, which uses a lot of the similar techniques.
[22:33.100 --> 22:37.460]  In Japan, they've chosen another system called ISDB.
[22:38.260 --> 22:49.020]  That is basically the same as the European system, but they've built on top of it more ability to send different types of data.
[22:49.120 --> 22:51.340]  So it's not just radio.
[22:51.340 --> 22:54.840]  It can be TV and indeed IP traffic.
[22:55.960 --> 23:06.120]  DRM is another version of using similar techniques to both HD radio and DAB, which we'll talk about in a moment.
[23:06.500 --> 23:13.160]  DRM is an IBOC method of sending data, but it's not compatible with analog.
[23:13.980 --> 23:21.960]  And so I think that's why it's not been chosen here, because obviously that would mean setting up new frequencies or reallocating space.
[23:22.400 --> 23:24.260]  You wouldn't be able to dual broadcast.
[23:25.800 --> 23:27.400]  So a quick look at DAB.
[23:28.040 --> 23:33.200]  I'm going to try and call it Eureka 147, because DAB only stands for Digital Audio Broadcasting.
[23:33.200 --> 23:38.660]  So essentially, it could easily be a description of HD radio.
[23:40.200 --> 23:48.480]  So it's broadcast at higher frequencies, either at around 170 megahertz or even 1.4 gigahertz.
[23:50.000 --> 23:58.080]  The idea is that you collect lots of stations together and you send them out as a stream of up to 2 megabits.
[23:59.360 --> 24:08.620]  So you would then tune into one kind of central frequency, and you would then on that multiplex, you would then get 10 channels or something, and you'd select them by name.
[24:09.680 --> 24:13.580]  It's a pretty good system, and you can have national and regional multiplexes.
[24:14.320 --> 24:23.440]  I'm guessing perhaps there wouldn't be a national multiplex here if it were enacted because of the large area that you'd have to cover.
[24:23.580 --> 24:31.700]  But the great thing about it is that it can be a single frequency network, because of the safeguards built in to DAB.
[24:32.660 --> 24:43.960]  You can have a single frequency network where lots of different transmitters are all broadcasting the same signal, but also on the same frequency, which you can't have with FM because it will interfere.
[24:45.260 --> 24:51.340]  And so, you know, that's proven quite popular in Europe.
[24:55.240 --> 25:09.260]  We'll just have a look over here, just talking about the fact that this uses orthogonal frequency division multiplexing, so the same techniques of splitting up your data, sending it on lots of different carriers.
[25:14.320 --> 25:18.260]  I'll just go on to the advantages of IBOC, because it is a good thing.
[25:18.440 --> 25:23.460]  You know, blatantly, it improves AM reception.
[25:25.800 --> 25:30.860]  And also, I'm going to talk about this towards the end, for community radio, it doesn't put up any big barriers.
[25:30.860 --> 25:39.560]  The problem with DAB is that you have to cooperate, and one company essentially owns the multiplex, and then you go to that company and pay them.
[25:39.760 --> 25:44.840]  And then they say, okay, you can come on, and we'll put you into the bundle, and we'll transmit you.
[25:45.440 --> 25:48.100]  So that's a big barrier for community radio.
[25:48.520 --> 25:52.040]  And so each station can act independently and do what they want.
[25:55.020 --> 25:58.340]  So as I say, on AM, it's a good plan.
[25:58.560 --> 26:02.380]  And also on FM, the great thing about putting...
[26:02.380 --> 26:05.580]  about going digital is you don't have to use all of the...
[26:05.580 --> 26:07.780]  all of your bandwidth for one station.
[26:08.100 --> 26:13.060]  You can then split up that data and transmit more than one station.
[26:14.640 --> 26:16.440]  And that's very important.
[26:17.600 --> 26:20.200]  Looking at it from a listener's point of view, what's...
[26:20.200 --> 26:22.140]  why would I go out and buy a radio?
[26:23.220 --> 26:27.440]  You know, initially, they're relatively expensive, at least $100 to $300.
[26:28.580 --> 26:29.880]  Obviously, that will come down.
[26:30.200 --> 26:36.200]  But the thing that I see as a consumer is a greater amount of choice.
[26:36.480 --> 26:38.080]  That's the easiest thing for me to see.
[26:38.280 --> 26:39.480]  You can put that on a box.
[26:39.480 --> 26:46.140]  And so using digital radio in the UK, we've managed to double the amount of stations that you can listen to.
[26:46.660 --> 26:49.400]  And so, you know, that's a big selling point.
[26:49.480 --> 26:52.140]  And I think that's a significant driving factor.
[26:52.540 --> 26:57.360]  Just to say better quality, A, it's quite hard for people to judge.
[26:57.640 --> 27:00.140]  In the AM situation, yes, it's good quality.
[27:00.280 --> 27:02.980]  But on the other hand, there are problems.
[27:03.300 --> 27:04.780]  It is quite artifact-ridden.
[27:04.920 --> 27:05.940]  It's probably hard to hear.
[27:05.940 --> 27:16.140]  But because of the way it's reconstructed in the very low bitrate, it's, you know, it is a bit of a harsh signal to listen to.
[27:16.320 --> 27:20.340]  And I'm not sure how long people will, you know, enjoy listening to it.
[27:20.460 --> 27:26.000]  And whether they prefer the old analog AM, just because they don't have all the digital artifacts in there.
[27:26.520 --> 27:31.420]  And so, you know, quality is obviously very hard to talk about and to rate.
[27:31.420 --> 27:36.760]  And so, I think that's a secondary driving factor for buying things like HD radio.
[27:37.300 --> 27:42.420]  And it's important to be able to have more choice from the listeners' point of view.
[27:42.800 --> 27:51.060]  Because, you know, that obviously gives them, essentially, that you're going to get some more stations that you're going to want to listen to.
[27:51.060 --> 28:02.660]  But also, from the broadcaster's point of view, keeping up with the changing way the media is going in, one has to find different advertising streams.
[28:02.840 --> 28:05.220]  Conventional advertising is, you know, is reducing.
[28:05.440 --> 28:14.900]  And so, having another second radio station, which needn't be very expensive to set up, because, obviously, you've got a lot of it sorted already.
[28:15.420 --> 28:25.320]  And initially, in the UK, a lot of the extra stations were essentially just computers playing out a list of stuff.
[28:25.480 --> 28:28.400]  Now, there are many extra stations which just do that.
[28:28.600 --> 28:32.340]  But the point being that they didn't have much voice track stuff.
[28:32.520 --> 28:34.840]  There wasn't much DJ input at all.
[28:34.840 --> 28:42.720]  And so, you can create, you know, an acceptable and okay second stream of music or other things.
[28:42.780 --> 28:48.460]  And then, the more people get into it and more people listen, the better it will be then they'll put more DJs on there.
[28:48.640 --> 28:54.000]  And so, you know, that is a way for radio stations to get into that.
[28:54.760 --> 29:00.660]  And so, I think that's why choice is important on both sides of the equation.
[29:01.640 --> 29:04.720]  And I've put down here that the lack of bad press is important.
[29:04.840 --> 29:13.000]  I think the problem is, once you start saying, oh, it's CD quality sound and all that kind of stuff, you know, you get into muddy water.
[29:13.900 --> 29:23.120]  It's obviously not CD quality sound, because you don't have, you don't compress CDs down to, you know, 96 kilobits a second and then listen to them.
[29:24.760 --> 29:29.740]  And so, when they advertise like that, it's very dangerous because, you know, A, they're lying.
[29:29.740 --> 29:35.100]  But B, people will catch on and then the word of mouth gets round.
[29:35.420 --> 29:36.900]  And, you know, it doesn't kill the technology.
[29:37.180 --> 29:40.740]  But, you know, you've got to try and keep away from that kind of bad press.
[29:41.320 --> 29:44.740]  And then, and cynicism about taking it on.
[29:45.780 --> 29:51.480]  So, I mean, that leads me into kind of the, these traps of digital radio.
[29:51.480 --> 29:59.060]  The, not so much here, but certainly in the UK where you have this big wad of, you know, two megabits a second.
[29:59.540 --> 30:05.300]  And you say, brilliant, we can have like 2,000 channels or the lowest quality imaginable.
[30:05.820 --> 30:11.620]  And so, you know, people get very, broadcasters get very excited when they think, oh yeah, we can just add another channel in really easily.
[30:11.620 --> 30:22.060]  And to a certain extent here, you can, I think, have, you can have two or three stations if you go all digital using HD radio.
[30:22.380 --> 30:25.500]  But, you know, that comes at a price.
[30:25.640 --> 30:28.120]  And the price is, you know, the quality that you get.
[30:28.340 --> 30:34.720]  In the UK, we have guidelines of minimum bit rates that you allowed for music and for speech.
[30:35.600 --> 30:38.500]  Which, the bit rates aren't applicable here because it's a different codec.
[30:39.260 --> 30:43.380]  But you've got to be very careful to not compromise quality too much.
[30:43.680 --> 30:48.140]  But essentially, you know, you just turn down the quality as much as you can until people complain and then you turn up a little bit.
[30:48.720 --> 30:52.300]  Which is, which is a way that broadcasters do sometimes approach this.
[30:54.620 --> 30:56.680]  So that's, that's going to be an issue.
[30:56.760 --> 31:01.580]  And I'll be interested to see how people react to the HD radio.
[31:02.240 --> 31:05.280]  As I was saying, I've listened to a bit of AM radio.
[31:05.480 --> 31:10.400]  And because of the way they've, you know, they reconstitute the signal from 32 kilobits.
[31:10.660 --> 31:15.800]  It is, you know, it isn't great to listen to for a point of view.
[31:15.960 --> 31:21.880]  And, and I'm not sure whether that will, your mind gets tired listening to, to bad audio.
[31:22.020 --> 31:24.820]  You know, it's not, it's not something that you, it's not something that you immediately notice.
[31:24.980 --> 31:28.660]  And it's not something that you, you find appalling and therefore switch it off.
[31:28.660 --> 31:31.000]  But, you know, can you listen to it for five hours?
[31:31.680 --> 31:34.940]  You know, if it's taught radio station, can you listen to it for that long?
[31:35.240 --> 31:38.240]  Or, you know, are you going to want to turn off sooner or later?
[31:39.400 --> 31:40.760]  It may or may not change anything.
[31:40.940 --> 31:45.200]  But I'd be just interested to see how people react to the digital codex.
[31:48.840 --> 31:51.400]  So I'll just talk about this corporate ownership.
[31:52.540 --> 32:01.160]  It, it seems, it seems a bit strange to me to, um, essentially be putting, uh, nations broadcasting into the hands of, of one company.
[32:01.700 --> 32:07.260]  Um, you know, in a sense, you know, there are similar things happening all over the place.
[32:07.760 --> 32:15.600]  We, in the UK, you could say that we only have one, one choice of, of satellite TV, which is owned by Fox, uh, or owned by Rupert Murdoch rather.
[32:16.000 --> 32:18.720]  And, um, so that, you know, you can't really switch provider.
[32:18.860 --> 32:23.760]  You either get just random ones from different satellites or you get, you know, Sky TV.
[32:24.360 --> 32:30.680]  Um, and so, you know, but we can, we have other ways of getting our, um, um, getting our broadcasts.
[32:31.220 --> 32:40.160]  But here, because, because HTC, which is the codec used, um, for HD radio, because that's, and, uh, you have to pay license fee for that.
[32:40.340 --> 32:43.000]  And essentially, each year you have to pay money to Ibiquity.
[32:43.000 --> 32:47.300]  Um, and similarly, there's, obviously, there's a, uh, set up cost.
[32:48.140 --> 32:52.800]  Um, so that means everybody is, is constantly just paying money to them.
[32:53.480 --> 33:01.420]  Which, you know, it's not such a bad idea, but, you know, what, what if they decide that they, um, they aren't gonna license, um, uh, somebody.
[33:01.760 --> 33:05.520]  So, I'm not, it's more of a theoretical thing.
[33:05.640 --> 33:06.740]  It's not exactly likely.
[33:07.120 --> 33:14.060]  But, you know, there's, it is, it is significantly possible that they could just say, no, we're not gonna license you for whatever reason.
[33:14.260 --> 33:18.440]  And then, all of a sudden, that station can't then broadcast, um, in HD.
[33:19.080 --> 33:20.720]  And, you know, now, it's a big deal.
[33:20.980 --> 33:22.080]  You can't broadcast in HD.
[33:22.520 --> 33:28.680]  You know, in the future, the whole theory is that everybody will listen, um, using HD radios, because they'll be nice and cheap.
[33:29.120 --> 33:33.960]  Um, and it's gonna take a long time to replace the 500 million radios in the U.S.
[33:33.960 --> 33:37.980]  But, um, you know, these things will, will, will progress.
[33:38.380 --> 33:44.280]  And so, it just seems that they have quite a lot of, um, you know, uh, power in the market.
[33:45.060 --> 33:53.560]  And, uh, you know, with things like DMCA, you can't, um, you can't, uh, go and work around this, uh, necessarily.
[33:54.680 --> 34:00.860]  Um, but it also means that because they're protecting it, certainly currently there aren't, there isn't really any choice.
[34:00.860 --> 34:03.640]  You have to have the radio receivers that they're made.
[34:04.180 --> 34:10.920]  Um, now, I'm well aware that, you know, we've, we've left the good old days when you can get a few little components to stick them together.
[34:11.180 --> 34:13.000]  And all of a sudden, you've got an AM receiver.
[34:13.640 --> 34:19.420]  Um, obviously, for digital radio and digital TV, whatever, that's not, that's not gonna work.
[34:20.300 --> 34:24.920]  You, you, you're gonna have to come up with something a bit, a bit more than that and put more effort into it.
[34:25.340 --> 34:38.340]  Um, but the point being that you can't, without the, without the information about the codec, um, essentially, you can't listen to the radio and, and you can't create other applications and other ways to use the, uh, the radio.
[34:39.780 --> 34:50.840]  Um, community radio is, um, obviously significant and, um, I know low power FM in this country is, um, gaining a little bit of ground.
[34:51.660 --> 34:58.360]  Um, low, low, um, community radio is, is to some extent unaffected by this.
[34:58.360 --> 35:03.280]  Uh, the, the whole problem, um, of the corporate ownership of, of the system.
[35:03.900 --> 35:07.660]  Um, because you don't have the big multiplexer provider.
[35:07.940 --> 35:12.020]  And you don't have to go up to them like you do in Europe and say, I'd like you to broadcast me.
[35:12.300 --> 35:15.680]  And they say, well, that'd be, uh, you know, $75,000, please, for the year.
[35:16.500 --> 35:20.520]  Um, that's, obviously, that's a big barrier to community radio.
[35:20.940 --> 35:24.360]  Whereas, at least here, um, you're still on the same channel.
[35:24.560 --> 35:28.460]  And so, as long as you can get the equipment to start with, you can, you can still broadcast.
[35:29.100 --> 35:36.480]  Um, but, of course, then you've got the extra cost of, um, paying your, your fees, um, to Ibiquity.
[35:36.680 --> 35:38.340]  So that's, you know, that's another barrier.
[35:38.560 --> 35:42.420]  Uh, which is, uh, where FM Extra may come in.
[35:42.420 --> 35:52.080]  FM Extra is, um, an interesting, uh, system which is, uh, compatible with HD radios in hybrid mode.
[35:52.560 --> 35:59.840]  Um, that means that if a station decides to go all HD, then your FM Extra receiver won't work.
[36:00.020 --> 36:06.240]  But the idea behind FM Extra is, um, if you buy an FM Extra receiver, you can still listen to HD radio.
[36:06.900 --> 36:08.520]  Um, I think that's the idea.
[36:08.760 --> 36:12.400]  It's, I, I, I had a word with them, um, earlier about it.
[36:12.420 --> 36:17.200]  And, um, I'm not entirely sure exactly what this compatible with HD radio specifically means.
[36:17.400 --> 36:20.580]  But you, if you want to get it, you have to have, get an FM Extra receiver.
[36:21.660 --> 36:25.280]  Um, so one assumes that they've, uh, they've paid for, uh, the royalties.
[36:25.520 --> 36:30.420]  Um, they've, they've paid for the license to decode, uh, the HD radio as well.
[36:30.700 --> 36:33.640]  But the, the good thing about FM Extra is it uses AAC Plus.
[36:34.200 --> 36:48.620]  Um, which is, uh, a well-known, uh, well, getting well-known standard, um, codec, which can go to very low bit rates and, um, and get, in my opinion, better quality, uh, than this.
[36:48.920 --> 36:55.140]  Uh, and so that, essentially, because they're using an open code, um, codec, uh, that's a good thing.
[36:55.460 --> 36:57.620]  You don't have the ongoing fees to Ubiquity.
[36:58.240 --> 37:05.000]  Um, but of course, you know, it's, uh, it's quite risky coming onto the market with, um, with FM Extra stuff.
[37:05.000 --> 37:10.480]  Because if everybody goes, um, HD radio, then they're not going to be able to listen to your station.
[37:10.740 --> 37:14.560]  And they have managed to get about 80 stations on board, um, so far.
[37:15.320 --> 37:16.660]  Which, you know, isn't that many.
[37:17.200 --> 37:22.800]  Uh, I think, currently, for HD radio itself, there are about, um, 800, um, stations in the U.S.
[37:23.300 --> 37:24.680]  licensed, um, to, to broadcast.
[37:25.600 --> 37:27.580]  Um, so I like the idea of FM Extra.
[37:27.580 --> 37:30.240]  Uh, it does very similar things to HD radio.
[37:30.660 --> 37:38.520]  But, unfortunately, um, I'm not particularly sure that it's going to catch on, um, because, um, everyone's behind HD radio.
[37:40.780 --> 37:46.420]  Um, so looking, looking forward a little bit, um, is there going to be an analog switch off?
[37:46.600 --> 37:47.700]  Well, I'm not entirely sure.
[37:48.460 --> 37:56.400]  Um, there, it will be a long way off, um, and it will be interesting to see whether people decide, um, to switch off analog radio.
[37:57.820 --> 38:02.040]  Um, in, in the U.K., the idea is that we are going to switch off analog radio.
[38:02.280 --> 38:06.160]  But, uh, and then, then sell off, um, part or most of that band.
[38:06.400 --> 38:08.520]  But, obviously, there's little point in doing that here.
[38:09.140 --> 38:13.800]  Because, um, you know, you're used to occupying the same frequencies, just, just broadcasting in, uh, digital.
[38:14.880 --> 38:19.880]  Um, and so whether, I assume that the whole thing will take off enough.
[38:19.880 --> 38:26.640]  And, uh, you will, um, people will therefore want the full range of HD audio.
[38:26.880 --> 38:31.400]  And, uh, the enhanced bit rate that you can get when you, uh, drop the analog carrier.
[38:32.420 --> 38:40.140]  Um, and for all I've said about, you know, the codec and how good it sounds and, um, or, or bad, depending on how you put it.
[38:40.140 --> 38:48.840]  Uh, as I was saying, uh, MP3s, um, have, have changed even though the, the standard hasn't essentially.
[38:49.080 --> 38:56.400]  And I think it's just the way that people have learned how to actually encode the data within the framework that's been set down has changed.
[38:56.400 --> 39:06.360]  And, um, um, and there's also pre-processors for HD radio already, which, um, claim to kind of modify the audio to, uh, before it gets compressed.
[39:07.020 --> 39:09.400]  To reduce artifacts which come out afterwards.
[39:10.020 --> 39:16.920]  And so, essentially, I think the, the, the sound quality in that respect will get better because, you know, people will learn how to, to deal with it.
[39:17.400 --> 39:21.780]  Um, FM extra may or may not be, um, significant.
[39:22.400 --> 39:30.560]  Um, but they, but in addition to just, um, modifying the way that you, you put audio into the codec.
[39:31.020 --> 39:34.700]  Theoretically, Ibiquity could change their, um, could change their codec.
[39:34.800 --> 39:36.420]  I don't know how much flexibility to there is.
[39:36.560 --> 39:42.860]  But, um, if they decided to, to change it in any way to improve it, then, um, that would probably require new radios.
[39:42.980 --> 39:44.140]  So, it's, it seems to be unlikely.
[39:45.820 --> 39:48.760]  Um, I will, uh, end there.
[39:48.760 --> 39:51.620]  Yeah, and, uh, if you have any questions, I'll be happy to, to answer them.
[40:06.560 --> 40:07.820]  How many, uh...
[40:08.420 --> 40:09.540]  Can you, try and use the mic, please?
[40:10.800 --> 40:11.080]  Hello?
[40:11.480 --> 40:11.620]  Yeah.
[40:12.140 --> 40:12.560]  It is on.
[40:12.760 --> 40:13.260]  Oh, it's on?
[40:13.380 --> 40:13.840]  Okay, sorry.
[40:13.960 --> 40:14.300]  A little bit.
[40:14.620 --> 40:26.400]  Um, I was just wondering, how many existing, how many HD stations of a decent bit rate would you say would fit into, um, an existing, uh, you know, a frequency allotment to say your average FM station?
[40:27.640 --> 40:34.520]  Um, I believe there's, there's room for, um, about three, I think, within the, the framework.
[40:35.000 --> 40:41.880]  So, I mean, compared to, say, uh, you know, a satellite provider, um, you know, they're pushing around 200 if they...
[40:41.880 --> 40:55.200]  I mean, this, this whole thing is, is partly to keep, um, stations competitive, uh, to increase their choice and, and indeed, you know, the sound quality to try and, to try and stop people going over to, to satellite radio.
[40:55.680 --> 41:03.800]  Um, but yeah, I mean, obviously there, there's, there's no way that they can compete simply on, on the number, uh, of, of, of stations.
[41:04.480 --> 41:10.820]  Um, so, you know, it's good that there'll be some more choice, but you're looking at, you know, you know, a tripling of the amount of available.
[41:11.060 --> 41:11.800]  Okay, thank you.
[41:15.780 --> 41:20.020]  Hi, uh, I'm from a group that, that represents, uh, low-power radio stations.
[41:20.020 --> 41:21.160]  Prometheus radio project.
[41:21.480 --> 41:21.920]  Yeah.
[41:21.920 --> 41:26.760]  And, uh, we've commented before the FCC on, on the whole, uh, digital transition issue.
[41:26.920 --> 41:35.400]  And one of the things that, that we've said about it is that, uh, what we end up with in, in a conversion to digital is, is a bandwidth windfall.
[41:35.580 --> 41:42.980]  Uh, because you actually can get more, uh, more stations out of, out of the, out of roughly the same amount of bandwidth.
[41:43.020 --> 41:46.180]  Actually, they're going a little bit further than they used to be able to go.
[41:46.180 --> 41:56.900]  And, um, what we think is sort of ridiculous in the whole thing is that there are thousands of groups around the United States that have applied for radio stations and they're told, no, you can't have any.
[41:57.060 --> 41:58.060]  There's no room for you.
[41:58.260 --> 42:05.860]  Just at the very same moment that, that, you know, NPR and, and incumbents are actually able to put second and third channels on there.
[42:05.860 --> 42:20.360]  So, uh, what we asked for was some, for some public interest obligations where, uh, where the, the new, uh, the new streams could go to some of the groups that applied for low power stations or for community radio stations.
[42:20.800 --> 42:31.460]  Um, in the next three or four weeks, the FCC is probably going to approve a second level of, uh, of authorization for digital radio.
[42:31.460 --> 42:35.120]  And so I just wanted to encourage anyone that, that's interested in this.
[42:35.240 --> 42:37.860]  It's been on hold for a long time at the FCC.
[42:38.220 --> 43:00.060]  But if there are things that you think should be in the, in, in the, in the future, you know, in connection with the analog switch off, they're trying to, uh, uh, iBiquity right now is trying very hard to slip this one in and make sure that no additional conditions are imposed on them and that no new entrants can get into HD radio in any way.
[43:00.360 --> 43:13.320]  And so it's an important time to call the commissioners if you have ideas, because, uh, right now they're thinking that the only voice on this is really the voice of industry, which just wants them to, to, to do everything exactly the way that they, uh,
[43:13.460 --> 43:15.820]  that they get to keep all the, all the channels for themselves.
[43:16.200 --> 43:16.480]  Yeah.
[43:16.780 --> 43:16.940]  Okay.
[43:17.060 --> 43:17.560]  Thank you for that.
[43:17.840 --> 43:28.460]  I mean, it is worth remembering that, you know, this is, um, um, as, as, uh, digital radio elsewhere in the world, it's, you know, it's, it's in its infancy and, and, uh, you know, things can be changed and commented upon.
[43:29.980 --> 43:30.360]  Hi.
[43:30.460 --> 43:30.580]  Hi.
[43:30.620 --> 43:33.400]  I've got two, uh, brief comments and then two brief questions.
[43:33.740 --> 43:35.180]  Uh, the first one is, the U.S.
[43:35.260 --> 43:42.100]  is already committed to, um, transitioning over the analog TV airwaves to, to a digital thing.
[43:42.260 --> 43:46.920]  So we may learn some lessons from that transition that maybe down the road we can apply to radio.
[43:46.920 --> 43:52.520]  Um, we're subsidizing the end users, uh, with, uh, set top boxes right now.
[43:52.840 --> 43:52.840]  Yeah.
[43:52.860 --> 43:54.820]  You know, maybe we'll subsidize radios down the road.
[43:55.400 --> 44:06.180]  Um, and then as far as iBiquity kind of being, uh, the standard for this new HD radio and, uh, us being locked into a single vendor who's got patent protections and all their technology.
[44:06.620 --> 44:09.400]  Um, patents do expire after 20 years for the most part.
[44:09.680 --> 44:14.800]  And, uh, it, we, I don't know what, what timeframe we're looking at for this transition.
[44:14.800 --> 44:17.720]  So that may, that may work itself out, it may not.
[44:18.020 --> 44:20.820]  Um, those are my two comments, uh, my two questions for you.
[44:21.460 --> 44:28.060]  Um, with, we've got a 10 kilohertz gap on AM signals.
[44:28.600 --> 44:29.040]  Right.
[44:29.260 --> 44:29.500]  Right.
[44:29.660 --> 44:36.860]  And that's because, uh, the pro, the pro, the properties of AM and analog, uh, signals, they, they need that so they don't bleed over into the next station.
[44:36.860 --> 44:37.680]  Mm-hmm.
[44:37.840 --> 44:45.960]  Is, is, is digital transmission, does it kind of eliminate that, that problem, the signal bleed over and having those kind of guard spaces on either side of the channel?
[44:46.640 --> 44:48.080]  Um, well, no.
[44:48.280 --> 44:59.560]  And, and, and, in essence, it kind of already uses those in AM because it goes, it, because it goes beyond the 10 kilohertz, which is normally, um, allocated, um, up to 15.
[44:59.560 --> 45:01.980]  It essentially is using that, that, that gap.
[45:02.700 --> 45:05.640]  Um, it, you know, it doesn't, it, it's probably more robust.
[45:05.820 --> 45:14.360]  One of the good things about digital is that, um, you can, you can actually, uh, get it with good reception for at least as, as far as AM.
[45:14.960 --> 45:18.140]  Um, and, you know, depending on your power levels and all that kind of stuff.
[45:18.400 --> 45:22.260]  So, uh, and it should be resilient to, to various things.
[45:22.580 --> 45:26.100]  And, and so some mild interference shouldn't necessarily be a problem.
[45:26.100 --> 45:31.920]  Um, but yeah, it will, I think you will, you'll need to keep those gaps in place.
[45:32.480 --> 45:38.080]  Okay, then the second quick question was, um, this is all completely different than, than a spread spectrum technology, correct?
[45:38.460 --> 45:44.500]  Even the orthogonal, uh, frequency, uh, the OFDM, it, it's all completely different than a spread spectrum approach?
[45:45.280 --> 45:47.200]  Um, I think so.
[45:47.280 --> 45:48.760]  I'm not entirely sure what you mean.
[45:48.940 --> 45:51.760]  I'm not familiar with, uh, that idea.
[45:52.080 --> 45:52.480]  Spread spectrum?
[45:52.480 --> 45:53.120]  By that name.
[45:54.140 --> 45:55.900]  Like frequency hopping spread spectrum?
[45:56.140 --> 45:58.260]  Direct access, direct sequencing spread spectrum?
[45:58.880 --> 45:59.760]  Um, no.
[46:00.020 --> 46:00.400]  Well, that's fine.
[46:00.580 --> 46:00.760]  Okay.
[46:00.860 --> 46:02.600]  It might be out of, out of, uh, scope here.
[46:02.720 --> 46:03.000]  Thank you.
[46:03.220 --> 46:03.240]  All right.
[46:03.240 --> 46:03.460]  Thanks.
[46:04.940 --> 46:05.380]  Howdy.
[46:05.620 --> 46:05.960]  Hello there.
[46:06.200 --> 46:10.780]  Uh, so many FM stations, uh, sell, uh, sub-carriers.
[46:11.300 --> 46:11.340]  Oh.
[46:11.560 --> 46:11.880]  Sell.
[46:12.040 --> 46:12.180]  Yeah.
[46:12.180 --> 46:12.880]  Big air quotes, right?
[46:13.020 --> 46:13.040]  Yeah.
[46:13.040 --> 46:19.020]  So you've got things like, um, uh, we're all, uh, well aware and, and loathing of Muzak, right?
[46:19.200 --> 46:19.240]  Yeah.
[46:19.500 --> 46:20.860]  Supermarkets playing crappy music.
[46:20.860 --> 46:23.140]  That's, that's coming off of a FM sub-carrier.
[46:23.400 --> 46:29.760]  Or, um, services like, um, you know, people reading newspapers for, um, the blind.
[46:30.080 --> 46:30.440]  Yeah.
[46:30.440 --> 46:34.000]  So, uh, with, with all this going on, is that going to go away?
[46:34.320 --> 46:36.200]  Um, no, but it, it, it is a problem.
[46:36.480 --> 46:45.240]  Um, the, uh, the, the issue is that, um, they will essentially have to get rid of those, those things and convert them to digital.
[46:45.620 --> 46:48.920]  Um, which is often going to be a problem, obviously, because there are so many analog receivers.
[46:49.520 --> 46:50.980]  Um, yeah, it, it's a problem.
[46:51.360 --> 46:55.500]  Uh, they, they will have to get rid of those sub-carriers, uh, for the most part.
[46:56.100 --> 46:57.620]  Uh, and, and do, do something else.
[46:58.060 --> 46:58.420]  Thanks.
[46:58.860 --> 46:59.040]  Okay.
[46:59.200 --> 46:59.380]  Cheers.
[47:00.240 --> 47:02.420]  Um, you were discussing...
[47:02.420 --> 47:04.640]  Just, just before you, um, I'll just continue on.
[47:04.640 --> 47:11.160]  Uh, the, within, within, uh, an HD radio, you can have, uh, data sub-carriers.
[47:11.440 --> 47:18.960]  Um, and you can actually get, you know, for data, you can get, um, a significant amount of, of, of information through.
[47:19.260 --> 47:21.640]  And that's built into, into the whole thing.
[47:21.780 --> 47:26.020]  And so, you know, that is certainly a possibility to move, uh, those sub-carriers onto digital.
[47:26.240 --> 47:26.560]  Yeah, sorry.
[47:26.740 --> 47:29.640]  So, we've all been talking about, uh, being locked into ubiquity.
[47:29.640 --> 47:36.660]  Do you know of any alternatives that are more, for lack of a better term, open source in terms of HD radio?
[47:36.860 --> 47:37.760]  Is there anything out there?
[47:38.320 --> 47:39.940]  Obviously, it seems sort of locked in now.
[47:40.060 --> 47:43.560]  But has there been anything in the past that was open in terms of HD radio?
[47:44.020 --> 47:47.660]  Um, well, I think, because it's so new, I, I, I, I, I'm, I'm not aware of any.
[47:48.140 --> 47:53.360]  Um, and I'm sure that they, they will, they will crop up, um, uh, at the moment.
[47:53.520 --> 47:54.780]  You know, it is, it is difficult.
[47:54.780 --> 48:02.060]  Um, but, um, and hopefully, um, we will be able to get something going with, uh, with software radio and stuff like that.
[48:03.660 --> 48:04.240]  Hi there.
[48:04.620 --> 48:04.980]  Hello.
[48:05.640 --> 48:08.340]  Um, we've had, uh, HD TV for a little while.
[48:08.600 --> 48:16.640]  And one of the technical merits was that you're allowed to have, and DVDs have this too, where you can look at different views or different channels.
[48:16.920 --> 48:17.040]  Mm-hmm.
[48:17.040 --> 48:17.500]  Same channel.
[48:17.660 --> 48:19.780]  I haven't seen one use of this yet.
[48:20.200 --> 48:21.860]  And it was supposed to be so big.
[48:22.060 --> 48:22.080]  Yeah.
[48:22.080 --> 48:27.060]  And no one's ever, ever used it for even advertisements to put on the second channel.
[48:27.280 --> 48:30.780]  It seems like the radio is obviously going to have this similar...
[48:31.480 --> 48:35.260]  I mean, it, it's easier to playlist a radio than it is to playlist a TV.
[48:36.340 --> 48:49.900]  But my question is, are they, are the, is the strategy right now to reduce the bandwidth allocated to the stations and cram more in, maybe get the even channel FM's in there to, you know, like the dot two and dot four, since they only use the odds right now,
[48:50.080 --> 48:53.140]  is the idea to cram more stations in there and sell it out.
[48:53.960 --> 48:58.700]  Um, well, the idea is to put more stations in, but not necessarily competing stations.
[48:59.080 --> 49:05.360]  Um, you know, so you will, you will have a second radio station under the same brand, uh, in there.
[49:05.680 --> 49:07.860]  But yeah, I mean, you're, it's an interesting point.
[49:08.120 --> 49:17.760]  There are, in new standards, there are always loads of features and, uh, some of them get used and some don't, and it'll be interesting to see which, which, um, which do.
[49:18.420 --> 49:19.400]  Um, yeah.
[49:19.480 --> 49:32.060]  I mean, I, I think, I think people will use, uh, the, the second, uh, channels, uh, to think tomorrow radio, uh, project by NPR is, is proactively, um, you know, using, uh, the extra capacity available.
[49:32.540 --> 49:34.460]  And, um, yeah, I think you will see that.
[49:34.780 --> 49:43.440]  But, um, there, there, there will also be something like the, the multi, uh, the multi-view thing in DVDs where, you know, people just haven't bothered using it.
[49:44.000 --> 49:45.360]  But anyway, it's the end of my time now.
[49:45.480 --> 49:46.340]  So thank you very much for coming.