[00:00.000 --> 00:06.600]  First hackerspace panel in HOPE history where every panelist is actually shown up.
[00:14.860 --> 00:20.720]  Which is good because we get to hear from everybody, but which is bad because I was counting on two people not showing like last time.
[00:22.220 --> 00:26.740]  So just give me one quick minute to rearrange the slide and we'll get started.
[00:38.620 --> 00:44.020]  Yeah, so how many people here have ever been to a hackerspace?
[00:45.060 --> 00:46.020]  That's a lot.
[00:46.520 --> 00:49.780]  How many have never been to a hackerspace?
[00:50.460 --> 00:51.180]  Not even.
[00:52.780 --> 00:54.640]  How many are members of hackerspace?
[00:55.560 --> 00:58.400]  How many people are members of a hackerspace?
[01:00.740 --> 01:03.480]  How many people are members of hackerspaces you've never been to?
[01:06.700 --> 01:09.460]  Actually, at Noisebridge we have a bunch of people in that condition.
[01:10.100 --> 01:11.020]  That's why I asked.
[01:11.340 --> 01:12.300]  And even more keys.
[01:13.220 --> 01:15.680]  I think we have a Noisebridge member who's never been in the country.
[01:16.060 --> 01:16.540]  We do.
[01:22.900 --> 01:24.340]  Yeah, it's not.
[01:29.440 --> 01:36.140]  Yeah, so for fill in time, hackerspaces.org is an amazing resource.
[01:36.940 --> 01:53.900]  If you live in, if you're not a member of a hackerspace or have never been to one, and you're wondering where is one maybe nearby you, hackerspaces.org is a place to look where, it's a wiki, anyone can add a new hackerspace that's either existing or forming.
[01:54.500 --> 02:00.720]  And you can see it's a very impressive map, a Google map, with zillions of pinpoints.
[02:01.260 --> 02:02.300]  It's pretty amazing.
[02:02.480 --> 02:04.880]  Some continents are obliterated with pinpoints.
[02:06.120 --> 02:08.500]  So there might be one near you that you don't even know about.
[02:09.200 --> 02:15.140]  If you're forming a hackerspace and you're not on hackerspaces.org, put yourself there.
[02:15.480 --> 02:19.840]  It's a great way to attract new people to you that you may not even know exist.
[02:22.240 --> 02:24.620]  They actually have a nice format for forming spaces.
[02:25.040 --> 02:30.600]  So when you register, it actually does a really great job of generating a lot of metadata about where you're located, how many members you have, what your goal is.
[02:31.140 --> 02:37.940]  And there's a really good section that you can say that you're a forming space, that you're a new space, that you're actively looking for members or you're actively looking for projects.
[02:39.440 --> 02:47.100]  Yeah, that's the worst part about slides is that you never know which slide is behind you or when the slides actually come up.
[02:47.240 --> 02:49.160]  So you can keep going for a little while.
[02:49.380 --> 02:54.800]  You'll have to forgive me, I haven't slept in a really long time.
[02:54.800 --> 02:56.260]  So that...
[02:58.360 --> 02:59.160]  How many...
[02:59.960 --> 03:04.000]  Just real quickly, how many of my volunteers actually made it to the session?
[03:05.920 --> 03:06.600]  Oh, wow.
[03:06.980 --> 03:07.180]  Okay.
[03:07.600 --> 03:08.000]  Cool.
[03:08.120 --> 03:08.200]  Yeah.
[03:08.460 --> 03:09.220]  Can we...
[03:09.220 --> 03:14.160]  And I know I always do this, but can we give a round of applause to all the volunteers, all the security, the AV?
[03:22.070 --> 03:24.690]  Everything this year, I think, has gone really, really smoothly.
[03:26.130 --> 03:27.830]  And I hope that continues.
[03:27.830 --> 03:29.790]  But moving right along to the panel.
[03:29.910 --> 03:30.010]  Hi.
[03:30.170 --> 03:30.890]  I am Nick Farr.
[03:32.650 --> 03:34.630]  I have been called the Johnny Appleseed of hackerspaces.
[03:34.750 --> 03:38.970]  And two years ago, I came here and I told all of you your excuses were invalid.
[03:39.210 --> 03:40.870]  And you all proved me right.
[03:42.490 --> 03:43.930]  Give yourselves a round of applause.
[03:44.110 --> 03:48.150]  Everybody's building hackerspaces, built hackerspaces, joined movements, done all of that.
[03:50.590 --> 03:57.130]  And so what I'm trying to do this year is bring together a bunch of people who have been working on pushing the hackerspaces concept forward.
[03:57.470 --> 03:59.310]  I'm calling it hackerspaces forever.
[04:00.250 --> 04:04.490]  The driving theme of the panel, basically in three parts.
[04:04.670 --> 04:14.610]  First, we're going to try to get as many suggestions on how to grow your hackerspace, goals, things that hackerspaces have actually done, hackerspaces that have moved from their first space to a second space.
[04:15.370 --> 04:18.590]  Second point, how hackerspaces are connecting with their community.
[04:18.590 --> 04:21.590]  A lot of growth is about connecting with your community.
[04:21.770 --> 04:29.650]  Whether that's your local tech community, whether that's everybody in town, whether that's the global hackerspaces community as a whole, we're going to be talking about that.
[04:30.090 --> 04:34.730]  And third, the point that always comes up, it takes up a lot of effort, ways of avoiding drama.
[04:35.230 --> 04:37.090]  You guys prove your excuses are invalid.
[04:37.630 --> 04:45.090]  And the way this panel is going to work, each panelist is going to have three minutes to introduce themselves and talk a little bit about their hackerspace.
[04:45.090 --> 04:50.590]  And then I'm going to ask them a specific question about their space following one of these three points.
[04:50.910 --> 04:57.390]  The goal is to try to get through all of the panelists as quickly as possible, give a brief preview, and spend a lot of time on Q&A.
[04:57.530 --> 05:10.430]  Because I know you guys have a lot of questions about hackerspaces now that you're actually building them, are dealing with a lot of these issues, or are wondering how to go from the first hackerspace that you started, or maybe the meetings that you've been having for a long time to actually moving into a space,
[05:10.550 --> 05:17.670]  or how to figure out how to grow your hackerspace from 40 members to 80 50 members, how to fight through attrition, and all these other things like that.
[05:17.890 --> 05:20.750]  The panelists have done that, have a lot of experience in that.
[05:21.110 --> 05:24.370]  And some are probably right where you are, and are fighting the same sorts of battles.
[05:24.830 --> 05:26.830]  So let's just get right along with it.
[05:26.910 --> 05:30.850]  Our first panelist is from MetaLab, the home of hackerspaces.org.
[05:31.410 --> 05:33.130]  Fin, tell us a little bit about the MetaLab.
[05:33.870 --> 05:34.110]  Hi.
[05:35.410 --> 05:36.530]  Can you all hear me?
[05:37.450 --> 05:38.450]  A little closer.
[05:40.490 --> 05:41.170]  Good.
[05:42.010 --> 05:43.210]  So, I'm Fin.
[05:43.470 --> 05:43.870]  Hi.
[05:44.370 --> 05:44.710]  Hi.
[05:46.010 --> 05:48.630]  I'm from Vienna, so I'm jetlagged.
[05:49.810 --> 05:54.310]  And MetaLab has actually been around for more than four years now.
[05:54.690 --> 05:57.670]  And I've not been around when it was founded.
[05:58.430 --> 06:02.110]  So, no starting hackerspaces details from me.
[06:02.110 --> 06:06.310]  It's good that we are not working on growing now.
[06:09.990 --> 06:11.570]  Our space is very open.
[06:12.050 --> 06:20.250]  So, basically, whenever a member is here, a key member is here, we take key member very literally.
[06:20.650 --> 06:22.650]  Everyone who has a key is a key member.
[06:24.210 --> 06:27.350]  Open and this approximates 24-7.
[06:29.510 --> 06:41.530]  And by open, I don't mean you have to call before you stop by, but everyone can stop by at any time as long as there's someone present with a key.
[06:45.810 --> 06:51.050]  Some spaces do this differently, and you'll hear a lot about those as well.
[06:52.770 --> 06:56.150]  We have 200 square meters of space.
[06:56.590 --> 07:00.050]  We've been going strong for 40 years now in the same space.
[07:01.170 --> 07:03.350]  And I think we're doing pretty well.
[07:03.350 --> 07:06.710]  Last year, I made some statistics.
[07:07.530 --> 07:12.190]  We had one event per day in average at our space.
[07:12.570 --> 07:20.610]  This can be user meetings or huge talks that fill all of our space.
[07:20.910 --> 07:22.310]  So, it's very exciting.
[07:23.790 --> 07:24.750]  Thank you, Finn.
[07:24.950 --> 07:30.370]  One of the things you were talking about beforehand is this notion of sort of connecting the two points together.
[07:30.370 --> 07:39.350]  What sorts of things about connecting with your community have helped fuel the growth of the MetaLab and have helped keep it a very big and vibrant space?
[07:39.630 --> 07:47.010]  What is it exactly about the way MetaLab connects with the community that helps it grow and helps it continue to be a good space?
[07:48.890 --> 07:55.470]  To be honest, most of our connection to people is by offering stuff that's really interesting.
[07:56.950 --> 08:05.150]  We've had years when there were few events, few open and few announced things happening.
[08:05.910 --> 08:28.830]  And we really... there was a significant difference in growth when we had little events compared to when we had lots of events, had lots of interesting workshops, and we've been pushing our members to tell stuff, give workshops, because the tagline is basically,
[08:29.030 --> 08:35.610]  every one of you here has at least one interesting thing to tell me that I know shit about.
[08:36.490 --> 08:41.730]  So, please tell us those things, and it will be a very interesting experience for everyone.
[08:42.490 --> 08:43.010]  Thank you.
[08:43.010 --> 08:43.210]  Okay, great.
[08:43.390 --> 08:43.770]  Thank you, Fin.
[08:43.870 --> 08:46.610]  Now, moving on to Carlyn from Crash Space.
[08:47.250 --> 08:47.810]  Hi, everybody.
[08:48.430 --> 08:49.590]  My name is Carlyn.
[08:49.870 --> 08:53.070]  I'm one of the founders of Crash Space in Los Angeles.
[08:54.170 --> 09:01.130]  According to our card, the Collaborative Research Association of Social Hacktivity is a hackerspace located in Culver City, Los Angeles.
[09:01.390 --> 09:12.630]  It's a place where people who are interested in a wide variety of topics, ranging from science and technology to electronics and art can get together and see how things work and find things that can be built from the parts.
[09:15.070 --> 09:24.770]  We actually put it on a card because I think, as you mentioned, a lot of people didn't raise their hand when Mitch asked whether or not people had been to hackerspaces and we thought it was important to have a little blurb.
[09:26.570 --> 09:36.170]  My hackerspace lineage is actually here out of New York because I was at the interactive telecommunications program for a couple of years as a student, and then as a resident researcher there.
[09:36.510 --> 09:40.830]  And so when I left New York, everywhere I went, I was like, where's the hackerspace?
[09:40.950 --> 09:46.670]  Because I knew about NYC Resistor and where's the place like the ITP program where people can figure out how to do things.
[09:46.830 --> 09:48.390]  And I couldn't find one.
[09:48.410 --> 09:56.270]  And then I was in Los Angeles and I was actually at a party and I met someone who was like, well, I know this guy who wants to phone one.
[09:56.530 --> 10:02.510]  And Crash Space started from... my involvement with Crash Space started from that meeting.
[10:04.130 --> 10:07.630]  We have a 1,400 square foot space in Culver City.
[10:09.030 --> 10:10.610]  We've been open since January.
[10:11.270 --> 10:15.710]  And we have our membership, you get a key, you get 24-7 access.
[10:16.730 --> 10:21.870]  People can stop by, but they do need to have a member with them if they're not a member.
[10:22.090 --> 10:25.830]  We've got a lot of open events that we're trying to have more always.
[10:27.290 --> 10:29.550]  Yeah, that's pretty much sums it up.
[10:29.550 --> 10:30.590]  No, that sounds great.
[10:30.790 --> 10:38.210]  So we were talking before and you told me a very interesting story about the camera in your space, which led to a very interesting tagline.
[10:38.370 --> 10:43.770]  Give us a little background about that unique way that you sort of circumvented some potential drama in your space.
[10:44.550 --> 10:49.490]  Well, if you go to that hackerspaces.org website, you'll see a lot of design patterns.
[10:49.490 --> 10:51.450]  And one of them is about the bike shed.
[10:51.850 --> 10:56.730]  And, you know, having too many, too long conversations about, like, what color the bike shed should be.
[10:57.910 --> 11:00.210]  And I think that happens to a lot of hackerspaces.
[11:00.350 --> 11:02.090]  We have a camera in our space right now.
[11:02.130 --> 11:03.710]  It's mostly just a security camera.
[11:04.330 --> 11:09.530]  We don't publish the feed, although we're, again, having conversations about what to do about it.
[11:10.270 --> 11:14.250]  One of our members actually was in the space and didn't want to be on camera, so he just unplugged it.
[11:15.310 --> 11:18.650]  So we had a, you know, at least 20-minute conversation in a meeting.
[11:19.050 --> 11:22.270]  But basically, at the end of that, we were all like, well, this is ridiculous.
[11:24.290 --> 11:29.710]  So I think our ethos as an organization is really to engineer solutions rather than legislate solutions.
[11:29.790 --> 11:38.130]  So if we don't want people to unplug the camera, make it so you can't unplug the camera rather than have a rule about unplugging the camera.
[11:38.130 --> 11:45.210]  So we're trying to keep our legislative overhead as minor as possible because no one wants to enforce anything.
[11:45.510 --> 11:50.610]  So if we can't engineer a way for someone not to do it, then we can't make a rule about it.
[11:51.630 --> 11:57.490]  Which is, you know, actually keeping the drama pretty low because no one's like, oh, you didn't do this and you're supposed to do that.
[11:57.610 --> 12:03.710]  Like, as soon as someone can, like, hit someone over the head with the word supposed to, that is just not fun anymore.
[12:04.590 --> 12:09.270]  So that's... so engineering solutions rather than legislating them is what we try to do.
[12:09.950 --> 12:10.430]  Awesome.
[12:11.150 --> 12:17.150]  So Sean, you were a big mover and shaker behind getting a hackerspace open in Los Angeles.
[12:17.390 --> 12:19.310]  And you're also a member of a hackerspace in Singapore.
[12:19.670 --> 12:19.850]  Right.
[12:21.090 --> 12:31.190]  Give people a quick little introduction to you and then sort of explain that dynamic of the difference between being a mover in a hackerspace and being a member in a hackerspace and when to be either one.
[12:31.190 --> 12:31.790]  When?
[12:32.050 --> 12:32.190]  When?
[12:32.330 --> 12:32.730]  Okay.
[12:32.890 --> 12:32.950]  Yeah.
[12:33.110 --> 12:47.210]  So I'm one of the founders of the space in Los Angeles and had actively been involved with the talks in Los Angeles to try to open a hackerspace for about four years, three years or something.
[12:47.730 --> 12:50.090]  And then finally just said, like, f*ck it.
[12:50.190 --> 12:51.910]  I'm going to go sign a lease and then we'll have a hackerspace.
[12:52.090 --> 12:53.570]  And then we actually got one after that.
[12:53.650 --> 12:54.670]  So that worked out pretty good.
[12:55.190 --> 12:59.950]  And then because of business and stuff, I traveled to Singapore all the time.
[13:00.070 --> 13:05.670]  And I met a bunch of guys there who were sort of at about the same point as we are opening their hackerspace.
[13:05.790 --> 13:12.210]  They got the Singapore hackerspace open about two weeks before we opened our space in Los Angeles.
[13:12.210 --> 13:21.370]  And so I joined them as well just to, you know, sort of tie the two communities together but also have a base where I could work and do anything there.
[13:21.590 --> 13:29.350]  But as I'm not in Singapore nearly as much as I'm in Los Angeles, I didn't want to take on any of the same administrative roles that I do in Los Angeles.
[13:29.350 --> 13:37.310]  So I don't vote on what color the carpet is or worry about, like, which room the lockers get put in in Singapore.
[13:37.930 --> 13:43.990]  Whereas in Los Angeles, I take a more sort of active role in deciding where lockers go.
[13:46.810 --> 13:47.290]  Awesome.
[13:47.470 --> 13:48.590]  Next up, Mitch.
[13:48.970 --> 13:59.310]  Also, anybody who's been to the hardware hacking area, I really have to ask for a special round of applause for Mitch and the awesome hardware hacking that you've put together.
[14:02.630 --> 14:08.570]  So Mitch, tell us a little bit about Noisebridge for those of us who are not in the know.
[14:08.850 --> 14:10.230]  So Noisebridge...
[14:11.070 --> 14:15.350]  Excuse me, my voice always goes away in conferences and it's already happening, sorry.
[14:15.590 --> 14:22.710]  But me and Jake started Noisebridge after going to Chaos Camp in Berlin.
[14:22.710 --> 14:29.930]  And if anyone has never been to such a thing, go way out of your way to go to Camp 2011 coming up in August.
[14:30.710 --> 14:31.590]  Totally amazing.
[14:32.130 --> 14:38.050]  But at Camp 2007, there was a talk giving the design patterns for starting your own hackerspace.
[14:38.270 --> 14:44.730]  And me and Jake were both there from San Francisco and knew that we were going to start a hackerspace when we got home.
[14:44.730 --> 14:53.890]  Along with Bre from NYC Resistor and Nick HackDC and we did it.
[14:54.510 --> 14:55.570]  That's all it took.
[14:55.870 --> 15:01.710]  So all hackerspaces start from, you know, one or two or a handful of people just doing it.
[15:01.990 --> 15:04.770]  And you start by creating the culture that you want.
[15:04.990 --> 15:12.990]  The culture that me and Jake wanted was, you know, hippie, freak, punk, weirdo, anarchist kind of culture.
[15:12.990 --> 15:14.830]  So that's what we created.
[15:15.310 --> 15:19.030]  And it's grown from there as cultures are apt to do.
[15:19.230 --> 15:23.110]  And it attracts more hippie, punk, freak, weirdo anarchists.
[15:23.310 --> 15:24.710]  And I love it.
[15:25.230 --> 15:34.390]  And if anyone is a hippie, freak, punko, anarchist type and wants to visit Noisebridge, Noisebridge is totally open to anyone.
[15:34.710 --> 15:36.410]  Always, 24-7.
[15:36.750 --> 15:41.970]  If any of you out there are thinking you might come to San Francisco and want a key, I have plenty of them.
[15:41.970 --> 15:42.670]  I'll give you one.
[15:43.250 --> 15:45.210]  And you don't have to be a member to have a key.
[15:46.330 --> 15:47.570]  We're open 24-7.
[15:47.730 --> 15:48.690]  So it's really no problem.
[15:49.170 --> 15:54.990]  If anyone comes in and no one knows them, they're greeted when they come in and people show them around.
[15:55.090 --> 16:04.990]  And if any of them start leaving with any of our stuff, people kind of say, hey, hi, that's our stuff.
[16:04.990 --> 16:09.690]  So we have one rule, only one rule, and we have no leaders.
[16:10.510 --> 16:12.770]  The one rule is be excellent to one another.
[16:15.130 --> 16:16.370]  It actually works.
[16:16.690 --> 16:24.330]  Because we have a culture that's grown, that we have enough overlap for this very subjective concept of excellence.
[16:24.790 --> 16:28.630]  But it's up to all of us to perpetuate our culture and help it grow.
[16:28.630 --> 16:30.330]  It's, you know, it's a work in progress.
[16:31.270 --> 16:38.430]  And so we tell people when we think each other is being excellent, as well as when we think people are not being excellent.
[16:38.730 --> 16:41.230]  Walking out with stuff, not too excellent.
[16:42.550 --> 16:45.530]  So, yeah, that's kind of Noisebridge.
[16:45.750 --> 16:47.670]  We're very, very diverse, very open.
[16:47.990 --> 16:57.070]  And there's anything from electronics and craft and photography and music and video and food.
[16:57.070 --> 17:02.050]  We have a full kitchen, slowly building a bathroom over the last year.
[17:02.270 --> 17:08.570]  We have 5,200 square feet of total chaos that is embraced with total anarchy.
[17:09.550 --> 17:10.650]  And it's wonderful.
[17:10.950 --> 17:13.430]  If you're ever in San Francisco, you should definitely come by.
[17:13.590 --> 17:14.770]  You are totally welcome.
[17:16.930 --> 17:17.330]  Wow.
[17:17.550 --> 17:18.050]  Sounds great.
[17:18.170 --> 17:21.230]  I can't wait to make it to the second space.
[17:21.370 --> 17:24.070]  Because I think I was there, actually, at the lease signing of the first one.
[17:26.650 --> 17:32.230]  So, it seems like a lot of what you're talking about people encompassing the term radical inclusion.
[17:33.430 --> 17:35.790]  What do you think are the really big benefits of that?
[17:35.790 --> 17:40.670]  Why should a space open up itself to everybody and try to be as inclusive as possible?
[17:40.790 --> 17:45.470]  What sorts of benefits do you get from that that a more closed hackerspace might not experience?
[17:46.290 --> 17:51.010]  You only know, Noisebridge is on definitely the extreme side of total openness.
[17:51.230 --> 17:54.210]  And that's not necessarily the correct approach for all hackerspaces.
[17:55.330 --> 17:58.710]  Not every grouping of people might be comfortable with that.
[17:58.710 --> 18:03.790]  And if you're thinking of starting a hackerspace, you should create a culture that you are comfortable with.
[18:04.450 --> 18:09.510]  At Noisebridge, me and Jake started it this way because that's the culture we wanted to be a part of.
[18:09.510 --> 18:13.030]  So, for us, it works incredibly well.
[18:14.330 --> 18:16.390]  Hackerspace is just like hacker conferences.
[18:16.610 --> 18:21.230]  It's all about community, of which there is so precious little in our modern day world.
[18:22.090 --> 18:28.690]  And being together on the Internet, if you can call that together, can be really positive experience.
[18:28.950 --> 18:35.030]  But being together actually in person, like all of us are here, is total magic.
[18:35.030 --> 18:42.470]  What can transpire just from a little quirk of body language can set someone off in a new direction in life.
[18:43.090 --> 18:50.050]  And when you have a whole hackerspace full of people doing this for one another and sharing and growing, it's amazing.
[18:50.310 --> 18:56.030]  And the more diverse, the better, I think, for people who fit in with the culture.
[18:56.270 --> 19:01.390]  So when we make ourselves totally open, we invite in the world.
[19:01.390 --> 19:02.970]  I mean, literally the world.
[19:03.270 --> 19:06.390]  People from all over the world, they land in San Francisco Airport.
[19:06.550 --> 19:12.430]  And their first stop is taking the BART, the subway, to the station a block and a half away from us.
[19:12.550 --> 19:15.050]  And they bring their backpack and they're at Noisebridge.
[19:15.390 --> 19:18.270]  And the smiles on their faces are amazing.
[19:18.350 --> 19:20.730]  And what they share is amazing.
[19:20.730 --> 19:24.010]  And what they're learning from all of us there is amazing for them.
[19:24.230 --> 19:27.650]  I mean, everybody wins as things ideally should be for all of life.
[19:27.650 --> 19:30.650]  So people of all ages as well.
[19:31.310 --> 19:39.410]  There's kids from middle schools and high schools as well as college and all the way on up to, you know, people in their 80s.
[19:40.370 --> 19:47.010]  People learning and growing and sharing from one another in all these ways, which has enhanced the more open we are.
[19:48.150 --> 19:53.390]  Spaces that are more closed might be better for them because they're more focused.
[19:54.950 --> 19:58.310]  Maybe not as diverse so they can go further with certain topics.
[19:58.530 --> 19:58.850]  I don't know.
[19:59.070 --> 20:00.170]  It depends on the grouping.
[20:01.370 --> 20:08.550]  But for us having this broad everyone welcome has been really, I don't know, just f*cking cool.
[20:10.890 --> 20:11.330]  Awesome.
[20:11.490 --> 20:11.850]  Thanks, Mitch.
[20:12.470 --> 20:17.370]  So Matt, for those of us that don't know, tell us a little bit about NYC Resistor.
[20:17.590 --> 20:18.750]  Just give a brief overview.
[20:20.450 --> 20:27.970]  So NYC Resistor is one of the older hackerspaces in this new generation of hackerspaces that kicked off after Triple C.
[20:29.630 --> 20:39.050]  Basically, two of our members, George and Bre Petis, went with Mitch out to Triple C camp, which, as he said before, is something you should definitely go to.
[20:39.050 --> 20:46.950]  I managed to make it to HAR last summer and it was really special.
[20:47.270 --> 20:48.150]  It's amazing to go to.
[20:48.290 --> 20:48.990]  I highly recommend it.
[20:49.210 --> 20:50.170]  So they came back.
[20:50.310 --> 20:55.210]  They immediately wanted to get this space going and they kicked it off and it's been around for two years.
[20:55.470 --> 21:02.130]  We are different from Noisebridge in so much as we set up in a way that's actually relatively different from most of the other hackerspaces.
[21:02.130 --> 21:13.230]  Since we were earlier on the scene, we decided, being in New York where you have, you know, space limitations, we wanted a smaller group of people, more for the managing space.
[21:13.770 --> 21:20.090]  When we hit 30 people in our last space, our first building, we ran out of shelf space, we ran out of access.
[21:20.090 --> 21:22.450]  People would come in and there wouldn't be places to sit.
[21:23.790 --> 21:32.510]  So we started with an exclusion rule, which was things like ex-boyfriends, ex-girlfriends can't be in the space.
[21:33.310 --> 21:36.690]  Anyone can veto anyone else for a legitimate reason, usually.
[21:38.170 --> 21:42.210]  We don't go after, like, the best hardware hackers or the best software hackers.
[21:43.010 --> 21:44.210]  We like everyone.
[21:44.370 --> 21:47.590]  It's just a matter of sometimes we get someone who comes in who's maybe a little crazy.
[21:47.590 --> 21:53.110]  They hate geometry and they take issue with the use of triangles, you know.
[21:54.210 --> 21:55.130]  This can happen.
[21:55.270 --> 21:56.650]  There are some pretty crazy people out there.
[21:56.830 --> 22:01.430]  So we went with the more exclusionary role and we also incorporated.
[22:01.610 --> 22:05.670]  Instead of going in as a 513C, we thought it would be easier.
[22:05.790 --> 22:09.490]  And it has opened options for us that otherwise wouldn't have been there.
[22:09.930 --> 22:16.690]  However, we have ended up being one of the more strange hackerspaces, although successful in our own right.
[22:17.690 --> 22:25.690]  And so NYC Resistor, just like Noisebridge, moved relatively recently into its second larger space.
[22:26.070 --> 22:41.430]  What sorts of things do you think people should embrace as they're preparing to move perhaps from their first sort of more incubator space into a second larger space, both in terms of utilization of the space and changing patterns within the organization and the people as a whole?
[22:42.950 --> 22:48.490]  Well, especially in any situation like this where we had been around for two years, we had been doing really well.
[22:48.650 --> 22:50.370]  We all knew each other pretty well at this point.
[22:50.510 --> 22:52.750]  We're bringing in people, you know, cherry picking them.
[22:52.870 --> 22:54.690]  And we had a really good community that we had established.
[22:55.310 --> 22:58.210]  That's kind of a problem as well as a really great thing.
[22:58.610 --> 23:00.550]  The problem is, is you don't want to rock the boat.
[23:00.670 --> 23:03.270]  And then moving to a new space is a real big change.
[23:03.530 --> 23:05.030]  So there's a lot of things to be afraid there.
[23:05.030 --> 23:07.410]  In my case, I was afraid we'd all burn to death.
[23:08.230 --> 23:12.970]  We had a really great place that we could start fires on the floor and it wouldn't really be a big problem.
[23:13.110 --> 23:15.210]  Our new space is like from the 1800s.
[23:15.270 --> 23:17.730]  And I was kind of concerned we'd all burn to death.
[23:17.910 --> 23:20.650]  It was things like bricks on the outside, wood on the inside.
[23:21.530 --> 23:22.530]  It's like an oven.
[23:23.450 --> 23:23.850]  So...
[23:25.170 --> 23:26.850]  For every person, it's something different.
[23:27.970 --> 23:28.910]  Everyone's got concerns.
[23:29.170 --> 23:32.250]  Big new space, bigger space means new members, different culture.
[23:32.710 --> 23:33.830]  That's culture shock.
[23:34.870 --> 23:39.370]  It's just a million different things that could change what you know of your space.
[23:39.790 --> 23:40.890]  But has it been working?
[23:41.650 --> 23:42.870]  It's been amazing, actually.
[23:43.070 --> 23:45.350]  We've got a whole bunch of new members who are all great.
[23:45.450 --> 23:47.870]  And we're still looking for even more, which is another huge benefit.
[23:48.550 --> 23:50.570]  The new space has allowed us to do new things.
[23:50.710 --> 23:56.650]  But I think at this point, we've kind of taken the last month or two just to chill after doing like a three or four month build out.
[23:56.790 --> 23:58.590]  New space means doing a lot of new work.
[23:58.590 --> 24:01.790]  We've laid down new floors, new CNC equipment was brought in.
[24:02.390 --> 24:06.370]  You know, new projects are kicking off because we have all this extra space and this opportunity.
[24:06.790 --> 24:07.150]  So...
[24:07.150 --> 24:08.370]  A lot of work.
[24:08.570 --> 24:09.150]  Now we're...
[24:09.150 --> 24:09.590]  We'll see.
[24:11.110 --> 24:11.590]  Awesome.
[24:11.710 --> 24:16.550]  And I think you actually made it the whole way through a presentation without a blatant troll against somebody.
[24:16.730 --> 24:18.450]  Oh, we do exclude gingers.
[24:18.870 --> 24:19.150]  Hey!
[24:22.370 --> 24:23.690]  I was waiting for that.
[24:23.890 --> 24:26.490]  And then, of course, we go right into a ginger.
[24:27.650 --> 24:29.050]  Far from Hive 76.
[24:29.610 --> 24:32.290]  Tell us a little bit about Philly's Hackerspace.
[24:32.670 --> 24:33.030]  Yeah, awesome.
[24:33.230 --> 24:35.890]  Hive 76 is in downtown Philadelphia.
[24:36.190 --> 24:37.950]  We're on the fifth floor of an arts building.
[24:37.990 --> 24:43.590]  So it means we're surrounded with a lot of little individual studios from artists, both hobbyists and people that make their living doing that.
[24:44.030 --> 24:49.870]  We have about 1,300 square foot space and about 18 to 20 members.
[24:49.990 --> 24:50.890]  I don't know exactly how many.
[24:52.070 --> 24:53.670]  So we've been around for about a year.
[24:54.010 --> 24:58.870]  A few of us decided, you know, we just wanted the space.
[24:58.970 --> 24:59.710]  We wanted to build something.
[24:59.810 --> 25:00.890]  We wanted to do some cool stuff.
[25:01.670 --> 25:04.450]  So we ended up just getting a lease and it was about three of us.
[25:04.510 --> 25:06.830]  And we went around and, you know, waved our hands in the air.
[25:06.930 --> 25:10.970]  We set up a wiki, set up a WordPress, set up an email account, blah, blah, blah.
[25:11.410 --> 25:15.610]  And then just started going out and telling people, hey, you know, come build stuff, come hang out, come make things.
[25:15.890 --> 25:18.110]  And had an open house every Wednesday.
[25:18.110 --> 25:23.190]  And then just one by one, two by two, people started showing up and making cool stuff happen.
[25:24.790 --> 25:30.870]  So this is actually the second hackerspace in Philadelphia that you've had the opportunity to build up a little bit.
[25:30.870 --> 25:37.370]  And then having been involved in the formation process of two hackerspaces, what are some lessons from both?
[25:38.830 --> 25:50.870]  You know, and not only in terms of building those hackerspaces, but growing the whole tech community in Philadelphia as a whole, that you think you would like to tell, you know, yourself maybe two, three years ago when you started out on this journey.
[25:51.570 --> 26:00.470]  I think the biggest one I would tell myself is something I actually learned from starting two hackerspaces and then sort of getting, I'm sort of on the fringes of the startup community in Philadelphia.
[26:01.050 --> 26:05.970]  And Philly has a really unique approach where everyone realizes that it's not us versus you.
[26:07.570 --> 26:09.070]  It's like it's collaboration idea.
[26:09.650 --> 26:10.610]  It's collaboration set up.
[26:10.790 --> 26:13.650]  And you have to understand that there's other people that are doing similar things.
[26:13.790 --> 26:15.470]  And in some ways you may indeed be competing.
[26:15.590 --> 26:17.010]  You may be looking for the same members.
[26:17.010 --> 26:20.410]  It could be three spaces and your friends can only afford to be a member of one.
[26:20.570 --> 26:21.610]  Hey, which space do they join?
[26:22.230 --> 26:24.030]  But that doesn't mean that you shouldn't collaborate.
[26:24.250 --> 26:27.670]  And that doesn't mean that as a whole ecosystem, it's not a better choice.
[26:27.950 --> 26:32.370]  It's far better to have two spaces in the area than to have no spaces in the area.
[26:33.130 --> 26:37.130]  In my case, there was a bit of an unfriendly fork at first between a couple of spaces.
[26:37.450 --> 26:38.930]  And after a few months, that settled out.
[26:38.990 --> 26:41.910]  And we realized it was actually better because there's different audiences.
[26:41.910 --> 26:42.810]  There are different interests.
[26:43.110 --> 26:46.510]  And as long as, you know, groups had decided, all right, things are cool.
[26:46.510 --> 26:47.030]  Let's relax.
[26:47.430 --> 26:51.670]  It was actually really nice to have two spaces because one, it gives you incentive to do some cool stuff.
[26:52.350 --> 26:54.250]  And, you know, two, it serves different audiences.
[26:54.410 --> 27:03.170]  And it was actually really cool in hindsight to think, you know, there's enough people in Philly doing this to support all these different types of spaces that are, you know, really the similar idea.
[27:03.330 --> 27:07.530]  The idea is let people do things, encourage people to learn, give them the tools to do anything.
[27:07.530 --> 27:11.970]  And, you know, we have four different ones that are slightly different, you know, all around the area.
[27:13.850 --> 27:14.430]  All right.
[27:15.470 --> 27:18.010]  And then Jim Hsu, you're up next.
[27:18.110 --> 27:20.350]  Tell us a little bit about Makers Local 256.
[27:20.350 --> 27:21.410]  All right.
[27:21.650 --> 27:24.830]  I'm from Makers Local 256 in Huntsville, Alabama.
[27:25.350 --> 27:27.630]  We started in 2006.
[27:27.630 --> 27:30.670]  There was about 10 of us meeting in different people's apartments.
[27:31.370 --> 27:41.770]  Decided to get a shop in 2008 where we grew to about 20 members and then moved again in 2009 to a bigger place.
[27:41.770 --> 27:44.810]  We have about 2,500 square feet now.
[27:46.330 --> 27:47.890]  We're completely donation based.
[27:48.150 --> 27:52.490]  We don't have a minimum membership fee and everyone's welcome.
[27:52.670 --> 27:54.190]  We have open events, things like that.
[27:54.670 --> 27:57.910]  We make things like portable photo booths.
[27:58.350 --> 28:03.730]  We have an aluminum forge, throw classes, parties, things like that.
[28:05.490 --> 28:14.490]  And basically Huntsville is really kind of unique in the fact that we have a big tech community that's... so it brings a lot of like-minded people together.
[28:18.180 --> 28:18.580]  Cool.
[28:18.900 --> 28:23.440]  And then you guys are sort of leading the way in one area in hackerspaces in the U.S.
[28:23.560 --> 28:25.080]  You guys actually threw a conference.
[28:25.220 --> 28:28.680]  A hackerspaces meetup almost a little more than a year ago now.
[28:28.900 --> 28:30.000]  And you're doing it again.
[28:30.260 --> 28:34.240]  And this is actually an exciting announcement that I'm proud to bring up to the panel.
[28:34.340 --> 28:36.540]  So tell us a little bit about the Hackerspace Fest U.S.
[28:37.810 --> 28:47.260]  So last year we decided that we wanted to see what would happen if we got a bunch of hackerspaces together to, you know, talk about things and work on projects.
[28:47.460 --> 28:53.560]  And in October of last year, we had about five hackerspaces come down to our space.
[28:54.760 --> 28:56.400]  We kind of, you know, threw a party.
[28:56.480 --> 28:57.880]  We had a big cookout and everything.
[28:58.280 --> 29:03.160]  And just kind of hung out and just talked about things, did some panel discussion, things like that.
[29:03.160 --> 29:07.600]  And so this year, November 12th through the 14th, we're going to be doing it again.
[29:08.040 --> 29:14.520]  We should have a hotel set up and maybe even some camping if you guys want to camp in Huntsville.
[29:16.080 --> 29:18.960]  We do have the Space and Rocket Center, so you can stop by that also.
[29:19.620 --> 29:22.240]  There will be more information up on makerslocal.org.
[29:22.760 --> 29:25.840]  Of course, like hackers we are, we don't do things until the last minute.
[29:25.960 --> 29:28.100]  So there's nothing up there yet, but it will be up there soon.
[29:29.860 --> 29:30.420]  Awesome.
[29:30.860 --> 29:31.120]  Okay.
[29:31.380 --> 29:34.320]  And then, Alex from HackMiami.
[29:34.880 --> 29:36.480]  Tell us a little bit about HackMiami.
[29:37.200 --> 29:43.540]  Yeah, we started meeting around August of 2008, right after the end of the last hope.
[29:43.780 --> 29:46.280]  We all coordinated through the hackerspaces.org website.
[29:46.500 --> 29:49.140]  And we started meeting at Florida International University.
[29:50.260 --> 29:54.240]  We became very comfortable with their facilities there for about a year.
[29:54.240 --> 29:59.860]  They had, you know, pretty much everything you need to give weekly scheduled talks.
[30:00.000 --> 30:08.260]  And we started scheduling talks every two weeks and promoting them heavily through the various social networks, Facebook, Twitter, the Google groups.
[30:08.400 --> 30:10.860]  And that's primarily how we were building people coming out.
[30:10.920 --> 30:14.380]  And we had about 20 to 20... we have about 20 to 25 regulars who come out.
[30:14.700 --> 30:20.580]  And then at about... and we officially became an incorporated nonprofit in February of 2009.
[30:20.580 --> 30:25.700]  And then earlier at the... earlier this year, we were hosting the Hacking Terrorist Networks talk.
[30:26.280 --> 30:31.080]  And from what... from what I heard, I guess some people from InfraGuard were interested in the talk.
[30:31.240 --> 30:32.080]  And they wanted to come out.
[30:32.400 --> 30:37.880]  So they... they gave a call to FIU to find out exactly what the details were.
[30:37.980 --> 30:42.080]  And all of a sudden, FIU's like, wait, hackers, terrorists, some FBI thing.
[30:42.620 --> 30:43.700]  Get out of the school.
[30:43.700 --> 30:46.860]  And so we quickly had to find another space.
[30:46.900 --> 30:50.340]  And we... we had a warehouse that was donated to us.
[30:50.460 --> 30:53.300]  And we're able to... we're able to use the second floor of it.
[30:53.440 --> 30:56.540]  But we're in the process of getting electricity into the warehouse.
[30:56.780 --> 31:00.500]  So in the... in the meantime, we're in... we're in a transitional phase.
[31:00.800 --> 31:05.100]  Where we're... where we are at a... at a pizza restaurant that has a...
[31:05.100 --> 31:07.720]  It's a very... it's... it's a good setup though.
[31:07.720 --> 31:15.120]  So they have a very big screen of a stage, a nice projector, a whole bunch of tables, and really inexpensive beer and good pizza.
[31:15.500 --> 31:18.540]  And we meet there every two Saturdays.
[31:18.620 --> 31:20.340]  And we get a... we get a decent crowd.
[31:20.440 --> 31:22.100]  20 to 25 people come out regularly.
[31:22.500 --> 31:27.240]  And we're... we're looking to hopefully get everything finalized by the fall for our warehouse.
[31:27.240 --> 31:29.840]  Where we can actually have... go and have a permanent space there.
[31:31.000 --> 31:32.900]  So that's a pretty unique story.
[31:33.100 --> 31:35.580]  Going from meeting space to getting a warehouse donated.
[31:35.580 --> 31:36.840]  Having to put electricity in it.
[31:38.060 --> 31:41.800]  While I'm glad I didn't have to go through that in... in helping get Hack2C going.
[31:42.120 --> 31:45.720]  What sorts of lessons are coming out of that sort of growing experience?
[31:45.900 --> 31:49.220]  This... the having to persevere through all of those various different steps.
[31:49.520 --> 31:54.820]  Well, we... we definitely learned that social networking is definitely a help.
[31:54.960 --> 31:58.000]  Because we... we found our space through Facebook immediately.
[31:58.360 --> 32:01.160]  The... we found our... the pizza... the pizza place through Facebook.
[32:01.160 --> 32:04.180]  When we didn't have any place to... to go through.
[32:04.180 --> 32:10.360]  So... just main... maintaining good contacts on social networking sites within... of people within the local area.
[32:10.540 --> 32:15.320]  You... you can search out... like... our... our primary focus is... you know... hacking and information security.
[32:15.520 --> 32:17.860]  So we just searched people out with those interests on Twitter and Facebook.
[32:18.040 --> 32:18.820]  And just started adding them.
[32:18.960 --> 32:21.420]  And... a majority of them would... would follow us back.
[32:21.740 --> 32:24.480]  And... and... would start... and begin to start participating.
[32:25.090 --> 32:30.220]  And... from an organizational standpoint... we... we did have a bit... we did have a bit of trouble.
[32:30.600 --> 32:36.940]  Um... initially after we incorporated... deciding on... deciding on bylaws and exactly what type of a nonprofit structure we were going to have.
[32:37.020 --> 32:41.440]  Was it going to be a member-driven non-structure... a nonprofit structure or a board-driven nonprofit structure?
[32:42.090 --> 32:45.340]  And... initially we decided to go with a board-driven nonprofit structure.
[32:45.340 --> 33:00.520]  Where we have just a few board members that kind of direct the administrative affairs and everyone else would be considered a volunteer and they pretty much guide the direction of the space, the talks, the actual projects going on.
[33:00.900 --> 33:04.200]  Whereas the board is just kind of focusing on getting electricity in the warehouse.
[33:06.380 --> 33:07.100]  Rock on.
[33:07.260 --> 33:16.200]  And then rounding out the group of scheduled panelists, SciTech from Alpha One Labs, tell us a little bit about New York's, I guess, second big hackerspace.
[33:17.260 --> 33:17.500]  Sure.
[33:17.620 --> 33:21.760]  Alpha One Labs started out about a year ago.
[33:24.160 --> 33:28.700]  My original inspiration for starting a lab was I had all these inventions.
[33:28.760 --> 33:30.140]  I'm an inventor and engineer.
[33:30.740 --> 33:32.600]  And I had this invention.
[33:32.800 --> 33:36.820]  I thought it was going to take millions of dollars to make a lab, you know, with all this equipment.
[33:37.920 --> 33:41.520]  And two years ago, they had the hackerspaces talk here at HOPE.
[33:42.340 --> 33:45.140]  And they went through all the design patterns.
[33:46.570 --> 33:48.240]  And I learned a lot from that.
[33:48.700 --> 33:53.020]  And one day I called in on a hackerspace.org call-in.
[33:53.740 --> 34:02.440]  And they were discussing a few issues that were going on through the hackerspaces, such as kids in hackerspaces, stuff like that.
[34:03.760 --> 34:08.100]  And I thought, well, let me just put this all together and start something.
[34:08.800 --> 34:10.980]  And we decided to follow the noise bridge.
[34:11.140 --> 34:12.600]  I heard they had 80 members at the time.
[34:12.640 --> 34:13.680]  And I was like, wow, that's awesome.
[34:14.300 --> 34:17.020]  So we took on the radically inclusive method.
[34:18.270 --> 34:21.400]  And we tried to keep the place safe and clean for all ages.
[34:22.480 --> 34:26.570]  We make it easy for people to sign up, which has been a major factor in our growth.
[34:30.040 --> 34:35.280]  We have taken on the duocracy method from Noisebridge, where the more you do, the more influence you have in the space.
[34:39.300 --> 34:51.280]  And during our meetings on Tuesday at 7pm, we all go around for six minutes giving updates pretty much similar to this panel, where everyone has a voice into the direction of the space.
[34:52.900 --> 34:57.760]  For our move, we actually started out as a small space paying $400 a month for rents.
[34:57.860 --> 35:02.760]  And it was close by, and that gave us a good boost to get going.
[35:02.760 --> 35:05.570]  And now we're in a 1,600 square foot place.
[35:06.090 --> 35:12.500]  And we found during the move that the most important thing to do is put stuff right up, right away, and get things organized.
[35:13.300 --> 35:16.880]  And hackerspaces are magical spaces that continually evolve and improve.
[35:17.090 --> 35:19.820]  And it's always getting better.
[35:21.460 --> 35:24.820]  And tonight we're going to have our sunrise party, and we hope everyone can make it.
[35:26.140 --> 35:26.610]  Yep.
[35:26.780 --> 35:28.590]  Has everyone seen the flyers for the sunrise party?
[35:31.090 --> 35:31.570]  No?
[35:31.860 --> 35:32.260]  How many...
[35:32.710 --> 35:33.480]  Have some here.
[35:33.610 --> 35:35.360]  Come up and get them after the talk's over.
[35:36.540 --> 35:39.820]  Because SciTech's been hitting those flyers pretty hard for the party, I'm surprised.
[35:40.420 --> 35:44.500]  Just a quick show of hands, who's received or seen one at some point in the conference?
[35:44.680 --> 35:45.090]  Okay, good.
[35:45.200 --> 35:46.550]  I knew the reach was bigger than that.
[35:47.110 --> 35:47.820]  Okay, cool.
[35:48.280 --> 35:50.980]  So, wow, we got through the schedule, panelists, pretty quickly.
[35:51.440 --> 35:56.070]  And then we have one special guest star, Joyce, from HeatSync Labs.
[35:56.670 --> 36:01.400]  Tell us a little bit about your unique setup and approach for building your hackerspace.
[36:02.050 --> 36:03.740]  There's Johannes, too, by the way.
[36:03.780 --> 36:04.550]  No, no, I'm in the end.
[36:04.590 --> 36:04.740]  Okay.
[36:05.050 --> 36:11.380]  Yeah, Johannes is an extra, extra special guest surprise star at the very end.
[36:11.520 --> 36:15.980]  And plus, he's also at the end because he's going to wake everybody up with his ridiculous Austrian antics.
[36:15.980 --> 36:21.520]  But not to be that too much, Joyce, just please tell us about HeatSync Labs.
[36:22.500 --> 36:26.700]  Hi, I'm from Phoenix, Arizona, and our hackerspace is called HeatSync Labs.
[36:27.320 --> 36:28.680]  So we're a little bit different.
[36:28.840 --> 36:32.540]  A couple of our founders got together and they got excited about this idea of a hackerspace.
[36:33.190 --> 36:42.420]  And so we're based out of this place called Gangplank, which is a collaborative startup incubator, which they feel like we have a lot to offer to them.
[36:42.420 --> 36:44.820]  So they're offering us free space there.
[36:45.000 --> 36:45.860]  So we're based out of there.
[36:46.220 --> 36:52.590]  We have a rep rep, a near space project, and a lot of other people working on different projects.
[36:53.280 --> 36:56.200]  Our public meetings are held twice a month.
[36:56.520 --> 37:00.920]  And then members can come in and use our resources.
[37:01.340 --> 37:11.520]  Also, we hold an Arduino night every month to get people excited who don't know about Arduino.
[37:12.880 --> 37:14.400]  So that's us.
[37:15.360 --> 37:15.880]  Cool.
[37:16.070 --> 37:18.640]  And then you're in a unique space.
[37:18.940 --> 37:24.240]  How does HeatSync connect with the community around it like a startup would?
[37:24.460 --> 37:28.220]  We talked a little bit about that and the unique place that HeatSync Labs has with its neighbors.
[37:29.090 --> 37:29.610]  Okay.
[37:29.860 --> 37:42.280]  So I guess, as you guys all might know, hackerspaces are kind of like startups in the fact that you are trying to run a business, but you're probably never ever going to get rich.
[37:42.520 --> 37:44.320]  So it does take a lot of work.
[37:44.500 --> 37:49.200]  And you need to hold a lot of fundraisers so that you can have the money to buy the equipment you want to get.
[37:49.540 --> 38:04.320]  So we hold a lot of administrative meetings to try and raise money to be able to purchase things like a laser cutter and have these resources that people will want to come in and collaborate and work on with.
[38:05.840 --> 38:06.300]  All right.
[38:06.480 --> 38:06.590]  Cool.
[38:07.050 --> 38:09.610]  And we're doing really, really well on time.
[38:09.820 --> 38:11.570]  So, Johannes, don't screw it up.
[38:11.660 --> 38:15.220]  Tell us about HackBus.at and your extra special announcement, which you've got.
[38:16.320 --> 38:17.020]  It's so loud.
[38:17.550 --> 38:18.040]  So, yeah.
[38:18.140 --> 38:18.760]  My name is Johannes.
[38:18.940 --> 38:19.880]  I'm part of Monochrom.
[38:20.020 --> 38:24.360]  And I'm the only member of the panel who cannot wank under the table and not be seen.
[38:28.440 --> 38:35.680]  So, just like a year ago, we at Monochrom and Dorkbot Vienna, we were thinking there is a space in Vienna.
[38:35.820 --> 38:36.880]  It's really awesome.
[38:37.040 --> 38:37.680]  I'm a member of it.
[38:37.780 --> 38:38.340]  It's MetaLab.
[38:38.340 --> 38:42.320]  But we have to have a certain form of mobility.
[38:43.040 --> 38:54.760]  And let's say if a hackerspace is an embassy, we need a certain form of, like, people going out there, like ambassadors, to spread the information.
[38:55.220 --> 39:00.760]  The main problem is we can be very honest about that.
[39:00.760 --> 39:04.980]  There will never be a hack space in DoublePenetration, Montana.
[39:05.440 --> 39:05.520]  Okay?
[39:06.000 --> 39:10.200]  So, there's so many spaces out there that nobody gives a shit about.
[39:10.590 --> 39:13.780]  But they're still interesting places because there are people out there.
[39:14.020 --> 39:18.800]  So, for example, a year ago, we started HackBus in Austria, HackBus.at.
[39:19.220 --> 39:20.960]  And we finally got a bus.
[39:21.140 --> 39:22.180]  We got it working.
[39:22.440 --> 39:25.540]  And in June, we toured through Vienna.
[39:25.800 --> 39:26.340]  Just Vienna.
[39:26.480 --> 39:27.320]  Not going outside.
[39:27.320 --> 39:28.420]  We started in Vienna.
[39:28.420 --> 39:31.540]  And first day of June, we were in the first district.
[39:31.900 --> 39:33.780]  Second day of June, we were in the second district.
[39:34.000 --> 39:36.780]  Up until, like, the 23rd district in Vienna.
[39:36.960 --> 39:43.320]  And every day, we had between 30 and 250 people coming to us, checking out what we were doing.
[39:43.840 --> 39:48.180]  DIY workshops, building, like, basic stuff, like lead throwers, whatever.
[39:48.440 --> 39:48.610]  Okay?
[39:49.090 --> 39:53.660]  And we reached more people than we believed that we could reach.
[39:53.780 --> 39:57.590]  And most of those people would never, ever set foot in a hackerspace.
[39:57.590 --> 40:00.640]  So, the basic idea is, and it's an old idea.
[40:00.780 --> 40:02.480]  There are so many HackBuses out there.
[40:02.740 --> 40:04.260]  Especially in the United States.
[40:04.460 --> 40:07.500]  You know, you know, cheap fuel, war, you know.
[40:09.460 --> 40:15.550]  So, the basic idea now is, there is hackerspaces.org.
[40:15.550 --> 40:18.300]  And today, it's an official announcement.
[40:18.820 --> 40:20.070]  It's a world premiere.
[40:20.780 --> 40:29.820]  We want to start HackBus.info, which is a community site for all the HackBuses and mobile hack spaces out there.
[40:30.040 --> 40:35.140]  So, please go to HackBus.info and register your bus if you have one.
[40:35.140 --> 40:37.960]  And I know, I talked to so many people here at HOPE.
[40:38.200 --> 40:41.860]  There are a couple of mobile hack spaces and hack vehicles out there.
[40:42.050 --> 40:44.160]  And the basic idea is, it's a long...
[40:44.160 --> 40:48.740]  There's a long tradition of hack space, of mobile hack spaces and hack vehicles and hack buses.
[40:49.090 --> 40:53.380]  And it's a really important tool to self-empower people.
[40:53.380 --> 40:56.700]  These units should be everywhere.
[40:57.180 --> 41:00.980]  You should start one yourself if you haven't done it yet.
[41:01.780 --> 41:06.420]  Please go to our site, add your bus if you have one or check out what we do.
[41:07.140 --> 41:13.460]  It's a pretty plain, virgin kind of site right now because I just put it online, you know, like 25 minutes ago.
[41:14.020 --> 41:18.660]  So, you can be there from the start, hackbus.info.
[41:19.000 --> 41:21.550]  And I hope you will join the movement.
[41:21.550 --> 41:24.110]  And good luck with that.
[41:24.300 --> 41:28.540]  And I hope that the hackbus movement can support the hackerspaces movement.
[41:28.860 --> 41:28.940]  Yep.
[41:30.260 --> 41:30.660]  Awesome.
[41:30.900 --> 41:32.700]  Give a big round of applause to the panelists.
[41:38.240 --> 41:47.220]  And a second round of applause because this gigantic panel made it in under 45 minutes, which I don't think has ever been done at a HackerCon ever.
[41:51.870 --> 41:55.310]  Okay, so now, I'm sure you guys have a lot of questions.
[41:55.410 --> 41:57.190]  And if not, I'm going to throw them out to the panel.
[41:57.190 --> 42:00.890]  And as well, I'm also going to be going through the websites.
[42:01.050 --> 42:06.370]  I promised the panelists that I would be visiting the websites of their hackerspaces as they came up during the course of the presentation.
[42:06.710 --> 42:12.670]  Now that the slides are done, I feel comfortable enough that if somebody messes the wireless and I don't do it, it's still okay.
[42:13.170 --> 42:15.470]  So we have our first question.
[42:15.630 --> 42:18.850]  And when you ask questions, you've got a microphone up front and a microphone in back.
[42:19.130 --> 42:23.590]  Please line up and we'll try to get to the questions as quickly as possible.
[42:23.830 --> 42:26.870]  And I am absolutely encouraging a discussion here.
[42:26.970 --> 42:37.530]  If there's something that somebody asking a question strikes a need to respond in you, go up to the microphone and speak your voice and we'll be alternating between the one up front and the one in the back.
[42:37.750 --> 42:42.870]  So introduce yourself real quickly, speak clear in the microphone, and throw your question out to the panelists if you want to answer it.
[42:45.800 --> 42:50.440]  I'm from Calgary and we've got a Hackerspace Editor that's been open for about a year.
[42:50.900 --> 42:55.680]  And I wanted to know how other groups are handling collaborative projects.
[42:56.380 --> 43:02.700]  The approach that we've basically taken is everybody goes off and does it themselves up until a certain phase.
[43:03.440 --> 43:08.320]  And then we look at what different people had working and try and coalesce it out of there.
[43:08.640 --> 43:16.900]  But since we've never actually finished a project at this point, I'd be interested in seeing, you know, what your experiences are with this.
[43:17.540 --> 43:19.380]  Fin's going to take this one from the Metalab.
[43:22.000 --> 43:23.540]  We do it this way.
[43:25.320 --> 43:38.780]  Really, most of the projects go, like you said, someone has an idea, implement it, and then people come in and ask around what they're doing and will join in eventually.
[43:38.780 --> 43:50.200]  But many projects actually come together in a collaborative way thanks to our lounge space.
[43:50.800 --> 44:00.100]  So if you're allowed to have a smokers room, you should try having one.
[44:00.100 --> 44:02.420]  And I'm a non-smoker.
[44:03.240 --> 44:08.240]  And I'm actually opposed to how we handle this in some ways.
[44:08.400 --> 44:15.000]  But this has been an incredible source of projects and source of discussion for us.
[44:15.700 --> 44:23.420]  There's been two startups, no, three startups founded in that room in four years.
[44:23.420 --> 44:33.300]  And just to footnote that, we'll also remember that the Metalab is in Austria, where they have a smoking machine every three feet along the street.
[44:33.420 --> 44:36.740]  Just like in New York, they have an ATM every three feet.
[44:36.820 --> 44:41.200]  You can buy cigarettes in just as many places in Vienna as you can get cash in New York City.
[44:41.380 --> 44:43.400]  So remember that about the smoking.
[44:43.540 --> 44:47.400]  There are a lot of lights in front of the plants than in front of pastry shops.
[44:48.760 --> 44:56.340]  And so, I don't know, maybe, if somebody has an alternative to the smoking room, get in line and tell us what it is.
[44:56.780 --> 45:00.020]  But did any other panelists want to take on the collaborative projects question?
[45:00.280 --> 45:00.360]  Far?
[45:01.160 --> 45:01.280]  Yeah.
[45:01.840 --> 45:02.680]  Hive is kind of interesting.
[45:02.920 --> 45:06.580]  Most of the people are, most of our projects start off from one person's passion.
[45:06.780 --> 45:08.840]  And someone comes in and says, I really want to do this.
[45:08.940 --> 45:09.360]  Check this out.
[45:09.380 --> 45:10.020]  I have something going.
[45:10.340 --> 45:12.700]  And a lot of times the first time people are like, yeah, that's kind of cool.
[45:12.800 --> 45:13.220]  That's kind of awesome.
[45:13.300 --> 45:13.700]  Show me more.
[45:13.900 --> 45:17.340]  And by about the second or third time, somebody shows up to a meeting with this great project.
[45:17.780 --> 45:19.900]  It just, people are attracted to that.
[45:20.120 --> 45:23.360]  You know, like fruit flies on an apple that's been in New York for a week.
[45:23.940 --> 45:29.680]  And you just, you know, you see somebody passionate about something and you really want to help them out and you really want to see it succeed.
[45:30.260 --> 45:32.260]  Especially if you have skills that you can help them with.
[45:32.400 --> 45:34.360]  Or they're learning and you can kind of help along.
[45:35.500 --> 45:40.660]  And we do have our share of projects where they get, you know, a third of the way through and people are like, okay, cool, that was fun.
[45:40.700 --> 45:41.420]  I learned what I wanted to learn.
[45:41.500 --> 45:42.420]  And they don't wrap up.
[45:42.840 --> 45:46.520]  But most of our projects are really, they're sort of passion driven by different individuals.
[45:46.520 --> 45:51.460]  And they bring it to the group and then they, you know, pull collaborators from the group.
[45:53.260 --> 45:54.980]  I'll just add a footnote.
[45:55.500 --> 45:59.880]  Noisebridge being the anarchist, punk, weirdo and all that stuff kind of a space.
[46:01.520 --> 46:06.360]  It's, when someone is passionate about something, it doesn't necessarily mean that other people will be.
[46:06.360 --> 46:09.480]  But if people are passionate about it, then it does become collaborative.
[46:09.700 --> 46:11.700]  And that's, those are projects that move forward.
[46:12.020 --> 46:17.660]  And ones where the person is just one person, maybe they just go off on their own and there's no collaboration.
[46:18.900 --> 46:22.420]  Or maybe it just kind of falls by the wayside in favor of something else.
[46:22.740 --> 46:27.000]  And within our culture, people just accept that as okay.
[46:27.000 --> 46:31.860]  Because there's so many, so many creative people doing so many creative things.
[46:32.260 --> 46:36.200]  There's always something that people can enthusiastically get behind.
[46:37.260 --> 46:37.660]  Cool.
[46:38.320 --> 46:41.520]  And against my better judgment, but I did promise I'd go to alternate the mics.
[46:43.180 --> 46:44.500]  Irish, what's your question?
[46:45.260 --> 46:47.960]  So, Mr. Farr, do you really have a posse?
[46:51.580 --> 46:58.380]  I'm actually glad that the reach of that joke has gotten so little that it gets that little bit of a laugh on a Friday night.
[47:00.880 --> 47:04.240]  And I'm going to let OpenFly troll on this one just to wake people up.
[47:05.620 --> 47:08.680]  So, I met Nick Farr at Rubycon 3.
[47:09.520 --> 47:10.700]  I don't remember the exact...
[47:11.040 --> 47:12.020]  No, not this story, please.
[47:12.280 --> 47:12.960]  I don't remember...
[47:12.960 --> 47:13.780]  No, I'm serious.
[47:13.780 --> 47:15.700]  He was the organizer of that conference.
[47:16.040 --> 47:20.220]  And one of the Rubycons actually ended with police dogs sniffing everyone leaving.
[47:20.700 --> 47:31.060]  But just to give you an idea of how much of a posse he has, the first night that we ran into him, his posse was carting him out of the hotel with a blood alcohol content that probably exceeded ethanol.
[47:33.320 --> 47:35.960]  So, yes, Nick Farr does indeed have a posse.
[47:36.040 --> 47:37.420]  He's still here today because of it.
[47:44.290 --> 47:45.250]  Next question.
[47:47.830 --> 47:53.610]  So, my question is initially for Farr, but if anybody else has anything about it.
[47:53.930 --> 48:05.430]  You were talking about the different spaces in your area, and I was wondering what the differences are that drive people to go to the individual spaces.
[48:05.430 --> 48:15.530]  Is it a geography thing, or is it more operational differences like, say, the difference between, you know, noise bridge and a more restrictive space or something like that?
[48:15.770 --> 48:16.670]  What drives that?
[48:17.930 --> 48:20.590]  Most of the thing that drives the different communities is a different need.
[48:20.710 --> 48:22.350]  It's a different desire from the people involved.
[48:22.850 --> 48:26.010]  A little bit of its geography, which is like, hey, I don't want to drive for three hours.
[48:26.410 --> 48:29.570]  But most of it is, am I looking for just pure art?
[48:29.610 --> 48:31.490]  Am I looking for art and really great technology?
[48:32.190 --> 48:34.970]  Some people, they don't want to be involved in a week to week basis.
[48:35.190 --> 48:37.310]  And there's actually a really great make group called Make Philly.
[48:37.470 --> 48:39.450]  And it's a once a month meeting for two hours.
[48:40.050 --> 48:44.430]  And there's a, you know, that crew, really, they don't want to be involved in a hackerspace.
[48:44.530 --> 48:46.150]  They don't want to build things every week.
[48:46.150 --> 48:51.630]  They don't have the need to pay to be a member of a space that they'd use for two hours a month.
[48:51.990 --> 48:55.510]  But for something like Make Philly, you know, that's a perfect fit.
[48:55.790 --> 49:01.610]  And so we've done actually a pretty decent job of sort of differentiating ourselves and understanding, like, how the different groups, you know.
[49:01.770 --> 49:04.870]  If there's somebody who really wants to do a startup, I say, look, come to Hive.
[49:04.990 --> 49:06.270]  If you like our style, stick with it.
[49:06.350 --> 49:07.630]  But we also have co-working spaces.
[49:07.950 --> 49:08.830]  And here they are.
[49:08.950 --> 49:10.530]  And, you know, they do the same for us.
[49:12.230 --> 49:15.950]  So New York's kind of interesting in so far as we have so many different groups.
[49:15.950 --> 49:18.270]  Alpha One Labs, NYC Resistor.
[49:18.530 --> 49:21.610]  There's other groups, Madagascar Institutes right near us.
[49:21.710 --> 49:22.530]  They focus more on welding.
[49:22.850 --> 49:24.430]  There's been other groups that focus on biking.
[49:24.670 --> 49:25.770]  We have ITP.
[49:25.950 --> 49:27.810]  We have Polytechnic University.
[49:27.970 --> 49:33.850]  We have a million different subgroups, academic, art, technology, all just around, all doing their own little thing.
[49:33.930 --> 49:36.630]  We've got 20 million people in a very small location.
[49:36.830 --> 49:41.550]  So each individual space is defined by its core group as per anything.
[49:41.850 --> 49:44.790]  You know, a small group of people get together and define what that space is.
[49:44.790 --> 49:48.190]  So they're going to find it to be what they think is the optimal design pattern.
[49:48.870 --> 49:52.070]  And I guess that results in us having a bunch of different spaces.
[49:52.450 --> 49:54.130]  So I don't know if that answers your question.
[49:54.310 --> 49:54.530]  Sure.
[49:55.590 --> 49:55.750]  Thanks.
[49:55.990 --> 49:56.110]  Yeah.
[49:57.130 --> 49:58.330]  And throwing it to the back.
[49:58.970 --> 49:59.370]  Yeah.
[49:59.650 --> 50:02.070]  I guess my question would be up for grabs.
[50:03.590 --> 50:05.610]  Hackerdom is a pretty homogenous scene.
[50:05.870 --> 50:09.050]  There's a whole lot of whitey white dudes that are predominantly straight.
[50:10.070 --> 50:15.530]  Yet hackerspaces define themselves as community-centered and open.
[50:15.950 --> 50:18.330]  So there seems to be a disconnection between the two.
[50:18.570 --> 50:21.990]  I'm just wondering if you folks identify that as a challenge.
[50:22.810 --> 50:25.210]  First of all, maybe you don't see it as a challenge.
[50:25.210 --> 50:28.690]  But if you do, how have you addressed that in the context of your space?
[50:32.510 --> 50:34.410]  Noisebridge was started by two queers.
[50:40.630 --> 50:43.630]  So, I like being part of a diverse community.
[50:43.850 --> 50:45.670]  San Francisco is a very diverse place.
[50:46.950 --> 50:49.890]  But still, it's predominantly white.
[50:50.250 --> 50:51.610]  There's Asian people.
[50:52.290 --> 50:54.290]  You know, Indian subcontinent included.
[50:54.870 --> 51:00.450]  People from Pacific Islands and people from Europe, whatever.
[51:00.790 --> 51:01.990]  But, you know, predominantly white.
[51:02.510 --> 51:04.390]  Predominantly middle and upper class.
[51:06.090 --> 51:08.190]  And it's majority male.
[51:08.350 --> 51:10.070]  But we're doing pretty good as far as female.
[51:10.250 --> 51:14.970]  I think when I was treasurer, keeping track of all the membership, it was 40% female.
[51:15.730 --> 51:16.890]  Which is pretty good.
[51:17.230 --> 51:20.810]  So, the thing is, we don't live in an ideal world.
[51:21.870 --> 51:31.390]  And what we're doing is creating not necessarily an ideal world, but an ideal, aiming towards an ideal for the world we want to live in locally.
[51:32.250 --> 51:35.110]  At least as I see it in starting Noisebridge.
[51:35.530 --> 51:37.770]  So, I want to attract all sorts of people.
[51:38.010 --> 51:42.090]  Right now, there's more females at MIT than males a little bit.
[51:42.090 --> 51:44.390]  It's because younger people growing up.
[51:44.490 --> 51:45.350]  It just doesn't matter.
[51:46.010 --> 51:49.990]  Before, doing electronics was a boy game only and not a girl game.
[51:50.130 --> 51:51.010]  And girls were discouraged.
[51:51.690 --> 51:58.530]  When I was a teacher in electronics, I had, for four and a half years of teaching, three females in all of my classes put together.
[51:59.810 --> 52:03.750]  So, doing sort of our own, you know, minor affirmative action kind of thing.
[52:03.750 --> 52:17.490]  And creating stuff that, in the past, was predominantly girl games, to bring people, not just the youngest people, where it just doesn't matter anymore, but people of, you know, twenties, thirties on up.
[52:17.870 --> 52:21.090]  Getting more crafting things, which is predominantly a girl game.
[52:21.730 --> 52:24.510]  Making sure that we had a lot of activities like that.
[52:24.890 --> 52:26.630]  Attracted more people who are female.
[52:26.630 --> 52:30.670]  But, you know, Noisebridge has people of indeterminate gender.
[52:31.510 --> 52:33.430]  And we encourage that, too.
[52:33.610 --> 52:43.590]  And we make sure that we have totally zero tolerance of homophobia and sexism and all of these kind of things.
[52:44.090 --> 52:45.550]  That is not excellent.
[52:50.230 --> 52:53.650]  So, we want to have a safe space for everyone.
[52:53.650 --> 52:55.670]  And whatever people want to teach.
[52:55.910 --> 52:58.110]  You know, and again, you don't have to be a member to do anything at Noisebridge.
[52:58.250 --> 53:01.690]  You don't have to be a member to take classes or even to give classes.
[53:01.750 --> 53:09.590]  So, we're always out being ambassadors in the community in San Francisco and everywhere we go to say, hey, we got this space.
[53:09.750 --> 53:10.930]  You know, you do something pretty cool.
[53:11.050 --> 53:12.610]  You want to teach a class there?
[53:12.730 --> 53:15.770]  And if there are other people who want to take it, then it takes off.
[53:16.930 --> 53:20.190]  And, you know, if it doesn't, it goes by the wayside and makes room for something else.
[53:20.690 --> 53:26.230]  But as a result of that, we've got way diverse kind of classes that attract all sorts of different people.
[53:26.610 --> 53:29.350]  Not just middle and upper class, which is the predominant thing.
[53:29.550 --> 53:35.610]  But since all of our stuff is free, it attracts people who don't have money to do just about anything.
[53:35.850 --> 53:39.410]  But here's a cool space where they can find community and therefore it attracts them.
[53:39.590 --> 53:41.570]  And they bring their friends and it attracts more.
[53:41.890 --> 53:43.330]  So, that's how we handle that.
[53:44.390 --> 53:48.250]  Johannes, you wanted to respond to this, but let's keep it quickly so we can get as many questions in as possible.
[53:49.930 --> 53:50.910]  Just very quickly.
[53:51.130 --> 53:51.590]  I mean, yes.
[53:51.890 --> 53:56.470]  I was together with my friend, Frank, just like a year ago or something like that.
[53:56.570 --> 53:59.750]  We published a small rant, let's call it.
[53:59.810 --> 54:06.950]  Or like, I don't know, like a paper on where we pretty much said, hey, we have to hack our own hack spaces.
[54:07.130 --> 54:10.210]  Because there's so many spaces out there where there's not a single female member.
[54:10.210 --> 54:17.130]  Or where, like in Germany, for example, there's some hack spaces in predominantly, let's say, Turkish neighborhoods.
[54:17.370 --> 54:21.290]  Because it's cheap to live there, but there's not a single Turkish member in the hack space.
[54:21.590 --> 54:24.150]  And it's all predominantly white, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.
[54:24.230 --> 54:26.890]  So, there has to be definitely some form of outreach.
[54:27.170 --> 54:32.330]  And this outreach can be either the old way of like, just like talking to people.
[54:32.330 --> 54:40.990]  I mean, 50% of the population talk to them, okay?
[54:43.470 --> 54:45.490]  And it works pretty well.
[54:46.370 --> 54:48.350]  Sometimes it scares them away, but okay.
[54:49.830 --> 54:56.390]  And that's, I guess, why today we wanted to launch the whole hackbus.info site.
[54:56.390 --> 55:02.330]  Because that's a different approach to attract people who might in no way be interested in hacking.
[55:02.930 --> 55:06.810]  But they are probably interested in like, tinkering around and doing cool stuff.
[55:06.970 --> 55:08.730]  They would just like, not call it hacking or whatever.
[55:09.050 --> 55:15.770]  So, I think there has to be a far wider outreach project for hackerspaces.
[55:16.330 --> 55:16.450]  Okay.
[55:16.710 --> 55:17.810]  Can I quickly...
[55:17.810 --> 55:18.630]  Yeah, no, go ahead, Karen.
[55:19.110 --> 55:23.630]  One thing actually, and this is sort of beyond just outreach in general to your community.
[55:23.630 --> 55:26.290]  When you're talking and when you're naming your events.
[55:26.610 --> 55:27.270]  Think about that.
[55:27.390 --> 55:30.950]  You're gonna say, you can say, applications of electro-luminescent semiconductors.
[55:31.150 --> 55:32.750]  Or you can, say, build your own lantern.
[55:33.550 --> 55:35.410]  And they're the same subject matter.
[55:35.810 --> 55:37.870]  And you'll get way more at the second one.
[55:37.990 --> 55:41.330]  And you can teach them all about diodes, all about how they have to go in one way.
[55:41.790 --> 55:45.450]  And like, you know, oh, you know, there are two types of, like, material.
[55:45.750 --> 55:48.570]  And one is like, sends electrons out, and one attracts.
[55:48.750 --> 55:49.590]  I mean, you can just...
[55:49.590 --> 55:50.850]  You can cover the same material.
[55:51.010 --> 55:52.190]  You can get to gallium doping.
[55:52.190 --> 56:08.430]  You can get to all that stuff eventually, but your lead line has to be something appealing like, ooh, lanterns, as opposed to electro-luminescent semiconductors, because, you know, a lot of people in this room get excited about the first one, but if you want to bring in people who are scared,
[56:08.930 --> 56:12.990]  honestly, or think it's harder than it is, because, honestly, LEDs are not rocket science.
[56:13.330 --> 56:14.030]  Like, they're not.
[56:14.190 --> 56:15.590]  Like, they're not hard.
[56:16.170 --> 56:21.730]  And so, like, making sure that your language isn't the barrier.
[56:23.050 --> 56:27.470]  And then I think I just wanted to... Joyce, do you have anything to say about this?
[56:27.570 --> 56:33.150]  And also, I promised you that I would put HeatSync Labs' website up on the screen, and I did, so I want to make sure you saw that.
[56:33.850 --> 56:37.810]  But do you have any kind of response to the question of diversity in hackerspaces?
[56:38.130 --> 56:56.350]  I think that, just as a female in the hackerspace community, people are like females that definitely are interested, but it's not a question of whether or not we can do this, because there's a lot of female engineers out there who just got to, just like anybody,
[56:56.890 --> 56:58.690]  just tell them about it.
[56:58.890 --> 57:00.590]  So that's what we're trying to do.
[57:02.690 --> 57:03.130]  Cool.
[57:03.670 --> 57:04.350]  Back up front.
[57:06.110 --> 57:06.770]  There we go.
[57:08.050 --> 57:11.030]  So, I have a question for the panel in general.
[57:11.270 --> 57:17.170]  I noticed you guys have a lot of diversity throughout your hackerspaces, but I noticed that all of you guys have two things in common.
[57:17.470 --> 57:20.710]  One, you're located in a major city, and two, you're leasing your space.
[57:21.050 --> 57:30.770]  How do you feel about creating a hackerspace in a rural community, its viability, and also using a member's house, its practicality for all the members?
[57:32.430 --> 57:42.750]  So, I think as far as location, it doesn't necessarily... like, they're in major cities, because that's where there's a community to support it, but I don't think that there's a necessity that it be in a city.
[57:42.870 --> 57:44.590]  There just has to be a community that supports it.
[57:44.710 --> 57:51.670]  So, if you have 10 people, or if you decide that it takes 10 people to run a space in your rural area...
[57:59.950 --> 58:02.610]  So, if you have the people to support it, it doesn't matter where it is.
[58:02.770 --> 58:07.630]  You know, you could have one in the middle of nowhere if everybody in that area was into it, you know?
[58:07.810 --> 58:09.150]  So, location doesn't matter.
[58:09.370 --> 58:10.710]  Or not everyone, just enough people.
[58:10.710 --> 58:17.650]  Right, yeah, that's... but I mean, if there's like only three people in like 50 square miles, you know, and all three of those people are into it, then run with it.
[58:18.190 --> 58:18.310]  Okay.
[58:18.830 --> 58:25.690]  Just to throw this one out to the audience, how many people here are members of a rural hackerspace or trying to start a rural hackerspace?
[58:27.370 --> 58:29.090]  Okay, we've got...
[58:32.250 --> 58:32.650]  Okay.
[58:35.110 --> 58:35.510]  Cool.
[58:35.850 --> 58:35.890]  Okay.
[58:36.110 --> 58:37.490]  And how about I...
[58:37.490 --> 58:38.010]  Forgive me.
[58:38.230 --> 58:39.270]  Forgive my...
[58:39.690 --> 58:47.490]  I don't know what the word is right now off the top of my tongue, but how many people are trying to start a hackerspace not in a gigantic megapolis full of crime and disease?
[58:49.910 --> 58:52.230]  Okay, so a few more, that's good.
[58:52.870 --> 58:54.950]  Did anyone else on the panel want to pick up the question, Far?
[58:55.190 --> 58:55.410]  Yeah.
[58:55.710 --> 58:59.650]  I accidentally started a housing cooperative in Rochester, New York, because I couldn't start a hackerspace.
[59:00.890 --> 59:04.530]  Basically, I found this group of people that are like, hey, we're crazy fun people and we want to live together.
[59:04.590 --> 59:05.530]  And I'm like, I want a workshop.
[59:05.930 --> 59:07.830]  And I ended up putting the workshop in the basement.
[59:07.830 --> 59:13.190]  And then since they were cooking food and rebuilding the house and doing awesome stuff, I just got involved in that.
[59:13.190 --> 59:18.910]  So I think the other thing is that a hackerspace doesn't have to be, I mean, it doesn't have to be this standalone thing.
[59:19.070 --> 59:24.850]  Being in somebody's garage, being in a business who says, yeah, you guys are really awesome, we'll open our doors.
[59:25.530 --> 59:27.010]  Fridays, you can come and use our space.
[59:28.510 --> 59:30.670]  There's a lot of flexibility people can have.
[59:30.970 --> 59:33.330]  And you don't have to start all over.
[59:33.410 --> 59:37.250]  You can find a group that's kind of similar, has some of the same values, and work with them.
[59:38.030 --> 59:41.810]  Also, the person who owns the space has to be really mellow.
[59:43.790 --> 59:46.910]  Yeah, so there's the hackerspace design patterns.
[59:47.110 --> 59:51.930]  One of the patterns is about a sense of propriety of ownership.
[59:52.190 --> 01:00:08.490]  So if one of the members is a landlord, even if it's an incredibly mellow, cool person, some of their priorities might take priority over what the rest of the membership of the hackerspace might be.
[01:00:08.490 --> 01:00:10.150]  So there might be potential conflict.
[01:00:10.350 --> 01:00:13.330]  It doesn't mean that it can't be resolved.
[01:00:13.350 --> 01:00:19.470]  But there's a lot of situations that are ripe for conflict in there.
[01:00:20.210 --> 01:00:22.630]  So the design patterns aren't rules.
[01:00:22.850 --> 01:00:27.610]  They're patterns for what has worked and not worked in a quarter century of hackerspaces in Germany.
[01:00:28.050 --> 01:00:29.930]  So there's a lot of experience behind it.
[01:00:30.050 --> 01:00:34.150]  But there are many hackerspaces that exist that violate these patterns.
[01:00:34.630 --> 01:00:36.670]  But to do so, you should do so consciously.
[01:00:37.490 --> 01:00:44.830]  If the only barrier to starting a space is you can't find one, but this person is offering you their garage, why would you not do that?
[01:00:45.830 --> 01:00:46.790]  Alex, you...
[01:00:46.790 --> 01:00:47.230]  Yeah, go ahead.
[01:00:47.230 --> 01:00:50.610]  Like having a hackerspace is better than not having hackerspace.
[01:00:50.830 --> 01:01:03.330]  So if that's the only thing, but know that going into something where it's at somebody's house or something like that brings with it a whole bunch of other problems that you wouldn't necessarily have if it was starting from scratch someplace else.
[01:01:03.330 --> 01:01:05.110]  Alex, you've been jumping in to get...
[01:01:05.110 --> 01:01:05.350]  Go ahead.
[01:01:06.030 --> 01:01:11.370]  That's one of the issues that we're dealing with is where to actually have the space.
[01:01:11.490 --> 01:01:19.250]  And if you're trying to start one up, looking to your local universities, your community colleges, libraries, those are all public facilities.
[01:01:19.270 --> 01:01:28.490]  And if you're able to become a nonprofit organization, which without the 501c3 stuff, just a nonprofit in your state, you'll be able to get free access to that.
[01:01:28.610 --> 01:01:34.250]  Just, you know, I guess don't have weird law enforcement subgroups calling the school about hacking terrorist networks and you'll be okay.
[01:01:34.910 --> 01:01:42.770]  But for the most part, take advantage of public facilities and also reaching out to local businesses because they've been more than helpful with us.
[01:01:43.330 --> 01:01:43.670]  Cool.
[01:01:44.150 --> 01:01:46.070]  We're going to throw it back out to the back, right?
[01:01:46.690 --> 01:01:46.930]  Okay.
[01:01:47.450 --> 01:01:47.610]  Go ahead.
[01:01:47.750 --> 01:01:48.270]  Good evening.
[01:01:48.570 --> 01:01:55.070]  I'm curious how much entrepreneurship there is in the hackerspaces and whether that causes any problems.
[01:01:59.130 --> 01:02:06.610]  Actually, we have a rather large and successful business that's been growing out of our space for about a year and a half, I guess, now.
[01:02:07.010 --> 01:02:09.990]  It started out in its extension of the RepRap project.
[01:02:10.250 --> 01:02:15.570]  One of our founding members, Zach Hoken, was the lead research guy for the RepRap Foundation.
[01:02:16.230 --> 01:02:20.610]  One of the members in the audience today is actually one of the founders of what's called MakerBot Industries.
[01:02:21.290 --> 01:02:28.670]  And MakerBot started out inside of NYC Resistor using NYC Resistor resources, most notably our laser cutter.
[01:02:29.730 --> 01:02:47.690]  In the early days, it wasn't a huge problem, but as they became more and more successful and started growing, and demand for their printers grew, in our little space, we suddenly had a large amount of wood piling up in our wood room, and then suddenly they had interns that were running the laser 24-7.
[01:02:49.210 --> 01:03:01.250]  So, over the years, I guess, they ended up finding their own space, moving their own wood out there, storing their own stuff, and eventually carting some of their larger amount of laser cutting out to outside vendors.
[01:03:01.670 --> 01:03:10.710]  But for a little while there, there was definitely some issues popping up where members couldn't get access to the laser because they were waiting for a two-hour run to finish.
[01:03:10.710 --> 01:03:16.990]  And then, just as that finished, one of their interns would snake in there and quickly replace it with another two-hour run.
[01:03:18.410 --> 01:03:22.670]  It definitely got on people's nerves and was definitely an issue.
[01:03:23.690 --> 01:03:37.210]  It did get to the point where I think people were starting to really draw some concern, but in the end, I think when they finally did get their own facilities, it quickly went away as a problem.
[01:03:37.210 --> 01:03:40.490]  And now we're in the same building as they are, they actually found our new space for us.
[01:03:40.950 --> 01:03:45.110]  So, that ended up being a great thing for us, and our relationship has never been better.
[01:03:45.690 --> 01:03:47.950]  They're great guys, and they're still members.
[01:03:48.390 --> 01:03:49.410]  So, we have...
[01:03:49.890 --> 01:03:57.710]  Sorry, I have that from the other perspective, is that we have a member who started a company and had a bunch of...
[01:03:58.230 --> 01:04:03.450]  I guess the fact that he became a member and had a space to put it was an excuse for him to go get a bunch of equipment.
[01:04:03.590 --> 01:04:05.110]  So, he wasn't coming in to use our equipment.
[01:04:05.110 --> 01:04:11.930]  He brought a mountain of equipment with him that then the rest of the space can use as well as sort of like his contribution to it.
[01:04:12.110 --> 01:04:12.250]  Yeah.
[01:04:12.330 --> 01:04:12.850]  I have to agree.
[01:04:13.230 --> 01:04:19.410]  MakerBot's definitely contributed a large amount of equipment and resources, even technology, and just expertise and visitors.
[01:04:20.350 --> 01:04:27.610]  Joy, since you're in an incubator, do you think that entrepreneurship sort of influences your space?
[01:04:27.710 --> 01:04:28.970]  Does that have an impact, do you think?
[01:04:28.970 --> 01:04:29.530]  Yeah.
[01:04:29.930 --> 01:04:38.250]  It's kind of interesting because there are four or five other companies in the space that we're working on, and they're starting up their own businesses.
[01:04:38.530 --> 01:04:44.750]  And we also have an entrepreneur in our group who is hosting the servers for HeatSync Labs.
[01:04:44.750 --> 01:04:47.030]  So, we all collaborate.
[01:04:47.270 --> 01:04:54.130]  I think we bring something to Gangplank, which is where we work, and then they bring something for us, which is free space.
[01:04:56.030 --> 01:04:57.150]  And Mitch, you want to wrap it up?
[01:04:57.530 --> 01:04:57.890]  Yeah.
[01:04:57.890 --> 01:05:04.090]  So, I make a living off of my personal project that became popular.
[01:05:04.790 --> 01:05:15.710]  And at Noisebridge, and everywhere I go, I encourage people to quit their jobs that they don't like, and in favor of doing something, you know, making time to explore what you love.
[01:05:15.710 --> 01:05:22.370]  If you find yourself in a position where you're doing something you don't love, you know, when you want to quit your job, you know, see me.
[01:05:22.370 --> 01:05:26.010]  But at Noisebridge, I do this a lot.
[01:05:26.430 --> 01:05:42.230]  And many people at Noisebridge now use Noisebridge as one of their resources for their own kit business or using computers there with sort of like a co-working space where people can be in community while doing their work.
[01:05:42.390 --> 01:05:44.990]  And this has not been a problem at all at Noisebridge.
[01:05:45.170 --> 01:05:48.890]  We have 5,200 square feet, and we've not outgrown that at this point.
[01:05:48.890 --> 01:05:56.210]  So, I see hackerspaces as a way of all of us freeing ourselves from the yoke of cubicle living.
[01:05:58.470 --> 01:05:59.030]  Okay.
[01:05:59.350 --> 01:06:00.150]  Next question.
[01:06:00.390 --> 01:06:01.190]  I have a question.
[01:06:01.570 --> 01:06:02.990]  And I have a challenge.
[01:06:03.950 --> 01:06:05.790]  For you people at the hackerspace.
[01:06:05.930 --> 01:06:07.010]  Johannes, do you remember me?
[01:06:07.230 --> 01:06:07.650]  08?
[01:06:07.890 --> 01:06:08.390]  Vienna?
[01:06:08.990 --> 01:06:10.450]  Do you know Hans in the Rada?
[01:06:10.890 --> 01:06:11.150]  Hans?
[01:06:11.450 --> 01:06:16.330]  I mean, the guy at the tech museum where I gave a talk?
[01:06:16.750 --> 01:06:17.190]  Yeah.
[01:06:17.410 --> 01:06:17.690]  Yeah.
[01:06:18.570 --> 01:06:19.830]  I just want to say hi.
[01:06:20.310 --> 01:06:20.430]  Okay.
[01:06:20.550 --> 01:06:21.370]  The challenge is this.
[01:06:21.850 --> 01:06:25.130]  Come at 1 o'clock in the Morse room tomorrow.
[01:06:25.710 --> 01:06:29.710]  I'm going to put out a challenge to anybody who wants to work with me on this idea.
[01:06:30.670 --> 01:06:31.130]  Enough said.
[01:06:31.250 --> 01:06:34.350]  Just be at the 1 o'clock at the Morse room.
[01:06:35.870 --> 01:06:36.870]  Thank you, Mr. Crunch.
[01:06:37.690 --> 01:06:38.610]  And in back.
[01:06:40.510 --> 01:06:46.990]  First of all, I had a... our solution for the smoking room was we just built an arcade and put a couple of really comfy couches.
[01:06:47.090 --> 01:06:47.690]  It works pretty good.
[01:06:48.610 --> 01:06:48.970]  So...
[01:06:48.970 --> 01:06:50.910]  Because we're no drinking, no smoking in our lab.
[01:06:51.170 --> 01:07:04.970]  But like most of the stories I've heard, when we started off, we had a big meeting and a bunch of people were excited and then all the who's going to be this position and who's going to do this and all the rules came in and most people are like, all right,
[01:07:05.090 --> 01:07:05.470]  we're done.
[01:07:05.990 --> 01:07:08.390]  So just two of us ran out and started it.
[01:07:08.470 --> 01:07:12.250]  But the problem is we do need people to do the treasurer role and manage all that stuff.
[01:07:12.430 --> 01:07:14.970]  So I guess we're not quite like Noisebridge.
[01:07:14.990 --> 01:07:17.450]  We're not completely, you know, free love.
[01:07:17.470 --> 01:07:18.270]  But we're...
[01:07:18.270 --> 01:07:23.150]  We don't really have a rules structure or, you know, ladder of members and all that stuff.
[01:07:23.290 --> 01:07:29.570]  So you guys have any suggestions for trying to keep that simple and make sure it gets done, but not, you know, regimental?
[01:07:32.450 --> 01:07:33.910]  Uh, Carlin, did you want to take that one?
[01:07:37.470 --> 01:07:37.750]  Yeah.
[01:07:40.370 --> 01:07:46.910]  Well, I think some of it is particularly when you're starting it, be prepared to roll up your sleeves and do a lot of the work yourself and hire a maid.
[01:07:49.310 --> 01:07:52.230]  You know, and I say that it's sort of funny, but it's really...
[01:07:52.230 --> 01:07:53.470]  I think we try...
[01:07:53.470 --> 01:07:56.310]  We're trying to have as few supposed to's, like, who's supposed to do this?
[01:07:56.370 --> 01:07:57.070]  Who's supposed to do that?
[01:07:57.110 --> 01:07:59.290]  We're trying to keep it as low infrastructure as possible.
[01:07:59.870 --> 01:08:03.390]  My being out of town for three weeks is probably going to make some changes.
[01:08:03.950 --> 01:08:05.450]  Same as Sean being out of town for a while.
[01:08:05.770 --> 01:08:09.150]  And one of the things we're trying is all, like, getting things done and all that.
[01:08:09.350 --> 01:08:11.490]  Little note cards and a bulletin board and stuff like that.
[01:08:11.610 --> 01:08:15.670]  And also, you know, being a little lower maintenance about, like, what really has to get done.
[01:08:15.770 --> 01:08:19.790]  Like, if you're paying your rent and you're paying your insurance and you're paying the things that need to get paid.
[01:08:21.010 --> 01:08:26.910]  If the membership... if you're really open and inclusive of the membership, if they want it, they'll make it happen.
[01:08:27.190 --> 01:08:34.790]  You've got to be really clear, like, that it is sort of a wiki kind of organization where, you know, you're not telling them what they can or cannot do with this space.
[01:08:34.970 --> 01:08:36.030]  Like, we've got some great members.
[01:08:36.170 --> 01:08:42.290]  One just started Radio Monday because he was really interested in all things like ham radio or Wi-Fi or XB or whatever.
[01:08:42.430 --> 01:08:43.650]  And so he started Radio Mondays.
[01:08:43.750 --> 01:08:44.530]  He didn't ask permission.
[01:08:44.710 --> 01:08:45.370]  He just started it.
[01:08:46.130 --> 01:08:48.330]  Another member wanted to have a handmade music night.
[01:08:48.450 --> 01:08:49.190]  He didn't ask permission.
[01:08:49.190 --> 01:08:51.170]  He's like, basically, I want to do this.
[01:08:51.350 --> 01:08:52.070]  Let's pick a knight.
[01:08:52.510 --> 01:08:57.810]  I mean, and so... and making sure that the posture of the people who are in charge, even if they're...
[01:08:58.390 --> 01:08:59.270]  They're not in charge.
[01:08:59.470 --> 01:09:01.890]  They're just getting... they're just getting... they're just getting shit done.
[01:09:02.090 --> 01:09:05.490]  And if you want to get shit done and you can do it better than them, you can do it.
[01:09:05.730 --> 01:09:11.770]  And so making sure, like, that sort of posture, like, is clear that you're all trying to reach...
[01:09:11.770 --> 01:09:15.690]  You're all just creating a community and no one is more important or less important.
[01:09:15.690 --> 01:09:17.390]  But, you know, the duocracy.
[01:09:18.570 --> 01:09:21.070]  And just, if you want to see something happen, make it happen.
[01:09:21.790 --> 01:09:28.530]  Yeah, I think one example... it's like the fact that the members being interested in making it happen is important.
[01:09:28.990 --> 01:09:33.950]  Because there was a bunch of stuff when we opened up, and we were like, oh, this would be good for a hackers...


[00:00.000 --> 00:00.900]  Can you help me do that?
[00:01.100 --> 00:11.100]  I need this done by, you know, this time or... and a lot of the times a set date is not a good way to do it, but maybe an event that's coming up.
[00:11.240 --> 00:13.060]  So we're having an open house in a couple weeks.
[00:13.180 --> 00:14.820]  Can we get this project done by then?
[00:15.360 --> 00:17.720]  You know, what do you need me to help you with?
[00:18.000 --> 00:21.820]  What type of, you know, resources do you need?
[00:21.920 --> 00:23.060]  Do you need, you know, someone else?
[00:23.680 --> 00:28.240]  Whatever it is, just... you kind of need somebody to take charge and ask those questions.
[00:29.700 --> 00:40.560]  Well, I think we were talking about this earlier on, like, the overall driving force of the hackerspace is, for us, and for the ones I'm involved with anyway, is that it's like something fun, you know?
[00:40.640 --> 00:41.500]  Like, we want to have fun.
[00:42.620 --> 00:56.720]  So if... it doesn't matter how good an idea is, if it's not good enough that somebody in there wants to sort of be the driving force on it, like, if you're, like, assigning people to do things, like, that's not necessarily fun, you know?
[00:56.720 --> 00:58.120]  Unless you call them ninjas.
[00:59.040 --> 01:01.640]  Yeah, if you come up with a cool name for them, that's okay.
[01:02.140 --> 01:05.420]  We, and recently, one of our members has taken on the role of the sign ninja.
[01:05.640 --> 01:09.820]  And as soon as we started calling him the signage ninja, like, all sorts of cool things started showing up on our walls.
[01:09.940 --> 01:10.720]  I am not kidding.
[01:10.840 --> 01:11.960]  It's the greatest thing ever.
[01:12.500 --> 01:13.180]  It's, uh, yeah.
[01:13.540 --> 01:14.380]  Call people ninjas.
[01:15.360 --> 01:22.820]  Yeah, and, and I, I've said this earlier, but, you know, at Noisebridge, it's anarchy, and it really works for us.
[01:22.940 --> 01:27.740]  So if someone's really passionate about something, and they want to do it, they just go ahead and start.
[01:28.060 --> 01:34.440]  They can get other people involved by talking on the email list, on IRC, in-person, um, recruiting any way they can.
[01:34.620 --> 01:36.960]  If other people are interested, it takes off.
[01:37.220 --> 01:44.940]  Like our near, uh, near space balloons, there's two groups at Noisebridge that, uh, started just because one person said, wow, look at this.
[01:45.040 --> 01:45.820]  This is really cool.
[01:46.420 --> 01:50.580]  And now there's two groups sending, uh, balloons up into space and taking snapshots of the planet.
[01:51.060 --> 01:53.040]  And, you know, these are things that take off.
[01:53.320 --> 02:08.120]  And, um, some other things that were really cool, kind of like, uh, uh, at Crash Base, you know, they're cool ideas, but there was never any, uh, enough people to make it coalesce, and you just have to let go of those, and make, that makes room for whatever's next.
[02:10.440 --> 02:11.920]  Uh, real quick.
[02:11.920 --> 02:17.200]  Pretty sure you may have been referencing our list of 150 ideas that we have on the project page.
[02:17.480 --> 02:18.280]  Anything like that.
[02:18.300 --> 02:21.460]  And, um, we, we were talking about giving things priority.
[02:21.780 --> 02:26.000]  Like, this is going to be an idea that's going to happen, and this is going to be something that we're not even going to do.
[02:26.420 --> 02:30.680]  So I think that is also an important factor of making things happen.
[02:31.800 --> 02:38.980]  Oh, and, um, well, one thing that we also do is every, every single meeting, we have something to do.
[02:39.460 --> 02:43.240]  Right now, since we're, um, uh, trying to get the space, we, we meet bi-weekly.
[02:43.400 --> 02:48.920]  And every meeting, there will always be a set scheduled event that's promoted for two weeks.
[02:49.260 --> 02:59.360]  And that will, um, and that generates a lot of interest, and it grows the space, because people will, um, you know, they'll, they'll send the invites out that they're getting on the social networks to all their friends.
[02:59.360 --> 03:02.880]  And, um, it, it really, it grows things very quickly.
[03:04.160 --> 03:14.220]  Uh, one thing that worked out for us well, uh, last year, we had our third birthday, and we found out people like an excuse to make cool things.
[03:14.220 --> 03:23.880]  So, uh, make an, if you have a reason to make an exhibition or something, offer them places for the projects and a deadline.
[03:24.420 --> 03:32.060]  And suddenly, there might be five more projects happening before the, before the deadline.
[03:32.280 --> 03:33.820]  That didn't exist before.
[03:34.080 --> 03:35.200]  So that's cool.
[03:35.200 --> 03:52.940]  And another thing, anything space related, uh, ban the phrase someone should, and replace it by I will, and things, at least discussions about projects will become bearable.
[03:53.600 --> 03:56.510]  Um, we've had this for a while, and...
[03:56.920 --> 03:59.020]  Yeah, I, I can't, I can't agree with that more.
[03:59.820 --> 04:06.400]  Like, no, like, telling people, like, that's, or, or just, like, someone should do this is, like, the worst possible thing that can happen.
[04:07.960 --> 04:08.780]  All right, cool.
[04:09.080 --> 04:09.520]  Thank you.
[04:09.660 --> 04:13.360]  Those, those were, actually, I thought that was a really great question and answer session.
[04:14.520 --> 04:16.100]  How many of you else thought that was a good one?
[04:23.340 --> 04:24.720]  And we're going to the back this time.
[04:25.060 --> 04:26.120]  Yeah, uh, hey.
[04:26.640 --> 04:28.460]  This, uh, this question's for Openfly.
[04:30.000 --> 04:33.580]  Um, Openfly, uh, your hackerspace only attracts gay men.
[04:33.580 --> 04:34.360]  Yes.
[04:34.360 --> 04:38.540]  And, um, I wanted to, I wanted to open a hackerspace for fat goth chicks.
[04:38.780 --> 04:39.560]  What do you suggest?
[04:41.220 --> 04:41.700]  Well...
[04:43.320 --> 04:43.800]  Okay.
[04:45.700 --> 04:47.000]  This is a tough one.
[04:49.020 --> 05:00.080]  As a gay man who's totally into fat goth chicks, my suggestion is the first thing you're going to want to do is turn out the lights, throw on some, like, KMFDM or something, or maybe just straight Depeche Mode.
[05:00.720 --> 05:02.880]  Um, you're going to need a lot of drugs.
[05:03.280 --> 05:05.860]  Uh, a really bad DJ.
[05:06.100 --> 05:08.180]  He's going to need, need to be well over his prime.
[05:08.500 --> 05:09.520]  Maybe a little creepy looking.
[05:10.220 --> 05:11.180]  Is this your side tech?
[05:15.120 --> 05:18.640]  I will not condone making fun of other members of the panel while I'm up here.
[05:19.940 --> 05:20.920]  Maybe later in private.
[05:21.360 --> 05:25.980]  Um, however, I would like to point out the young lady who asked that question will be presenting at DEFCON.
[05:26.340 --> 05:27.980]  And she has a pretty good talk and you should definitely go.
[05:35.580 --> 05:37.480]  Next, hopefully, serious question.
[05:37.880 --> 05:38.260]  Hi.
[05:38.340 --> 05:44.400]  I was wondering if anyone on the panel, the organizations that you represent, if any of you identify yourself with something other than a hackerspace.
[05:44.400 --> 06:00.940]  Um, recently at my hackerspace in Chicago, we've had discussions about using other terms like makerspace or community workshop, mainly around the challenge of discussions with possible sponsorships and the term hackerspace and how people initially react to that.
[06:01.220 --> 06:08.600]  Um, so, I was interested to see what the panel thinks about the term and if it's important and what it means and what you're using.
[06:09.340 --> 06:11.120]  Uh, Jim, did you want to take this one?
[06:12.760 --> 06:14.880]  Um, uh, I would.
[06:15.080 --> 06:19.760]  I don't remember what phrase we used and I was actually trying to look that up quick on our website.
[06:20.320 --> 06:21.610]  Um, but...
[06:23.080 --> 06:24.060]  We've used both.
[06:24.780 --> 06:25.940]  We had this...
[06:27.280 --> 06:33.340]  We had this issue early on when we were forming if we were going to be a makerspace or a hackerspace.
[06:33.560 --> 06:37.760]  We were thinking, let's be a makerspace because we want to appeal to everyone and sound good.
[06:38.260 --> 06:43.760]  And then I said, let's be a hackerspace because we want to do that too and break stuff.
[06:45.520 --> 06:45.960]  So...
[06:45.960 --> 06:46.100]  I...
[06:46.100 --> 06:49.100]  I think it's really important to own the word hackerspace, actually.
[06:49.500 --> 06:52.120]  Uh, well, I'll, you know, I'll say collaborative workspace.
[06:52.500 --> 06:53.700]  I'll say makerspace occasionally.
[06:53.700 --> 06:59.700]  But I think it's really important to keep using the phrase hackerspace and really be what you are and then have that fill the word.
[07:01.880 --> 07:02.320]  Um...
[07:02.320 --> 07:03.720]  Yeah, because it's actually...
[07:05.140 --> 07:06.320]  It's more widely used.
[07:06.340 --> 07:07.280]  It's a widely used term.
[07:07.280 --> 07:07.580]  Yeah.
[07:07.760 --> 07:13.020]  And it's actually a good thing that the term hacker gets some kind of like redefinition of what it is.
[07:13.180 --> 07:13.260]  Yeah.
[07:13.460 --> 07:13.760]  Yeah.
[07:14.340 --> 07:15.120]  We've kind of...
[07:15.940 --> 07:19.780]  We've kind of taken the posture of using hacker as much as possible.
[07:19.800 --> 07:27.600]  And when anybody responds with any kind of question or hesitation, we like blatantly make fun of them for like believing like Hollywood movies and stuff.
[07:27.600 --> 07:29.120]  We're like, you know, this isn't...
[07:29.120 --> 07:30.480]  This isn't like that crap.
[07:30.640 --> 07:31.920]  This is like actual hackers.
[07:32.240 --> 07:32.340]  You know?
[07:32.460 --> 07:32.980]  And then we sort of...
[07:32.980 --> 07:35.740]  It opens a chance for us to explain like what hackers do.
[07:35.940 --> 07:38.580]  Um, which, you know, sort of makes things better for everybody.
[07:38.580 --> 07:38.980]  Yeah.
[07:39.120 --> 07:39.860]  We've had the...
[07:40.380 --> 07:43.240]  The idea that you say hackerspace and you look for that Twitch.
[07:43.920 --> 07:45.820]  And if you see that Twitch, don't take a breath.
[07:45.940 --> 07:47.800]  Just say, it's a space where you build and make really cool stuff.
[07:48.500 --> 07:48.820]  Yeah.
[07:48.920 --> 07:49.880]  It's a community space.
[07:49.880 --> 07:59.680]  And, you know, if we're spending a lot of our energy or any of our energy worrying about what some mythical other might think of us, then we're doing a disservice to ourselves and the mythical other.
[08:00.020 --> 08:01.760]  So, um, the...
[08:01.760 --> 08:09.900]  By owning the word hacker and hackerspace, Noisebridge has generated an incredible amount of very positive press in the mainstream.
[08:10.560 --> 08:15.480]  And, uh, you just wrote an article that fits in with that as well about hackerspaces.
[08:15.480 --> 08:28.260]  So, um, if we keep putting it out there and there's so many examples of so many of us in this room doing positive things for ourselves and the people around us in the world, the, uh, people take notice.
[08:28.600 --> 08:31.680]  And, uh, hacker is becoming more positive as a result.
[08:31.940 --> 08:38.980]  I also think that, like, some of those other terms, uh, imply something else, you know, and might attract a different sort of person.
[08:39.190 --> 08:46.330]  You know, there's sort of a, what is it, tech shop where you can sort of become a member and it doesn't, you know, you're not expected to interact with the community at all.
[08:46.380 --> 08:48.210]  You just go and you sort of use the tools and everything.
[08:48.380 --> 08:57.950]  And so, I think, like, trying to, like, incorporate those terms to make things more, you know, like, friendly media-wise attracts people who aren't necessarily interested in a community.
[08:57.950 --> 09:03.980]  And I think that a community is a huge core part of a hackerspace and attracts those sorts of people.
[09:04.940 --> 09:09.500]  So, at NYC Resistor, we had an early member named, uh, Dino, Dino D'Azovi.
[09:09.660 --> 09:11.640]  He's a very talented security researcher.
[09:12.140 --> 09:14.760]  Um, he ended up leaving the group for different reasons.
[09:15.020 --> 09:20.980]  And, uh, he's now, uh, he runs in a, uh, NYSEC meeting on Tuesdays in the, uh, during the month.
[09:21.120 --> 09:23.140]  I forget which week of the month it is.
[09:23.260 --> 09:29.080]  But, uh, early on, we lost a lot of our good software, like, specifically software talent.
[09:29.080 --> 09:32.070]  And, uh, we became more focused in hardware.
[09:32.420 --> 09:34.450]  And I think that's kind of a negative side.
[09:34.710 --> 09:44.620]  Uh, that's kind of the problem with being a maker space, is you kind of chain yourself more to the maker culture, which has differentiated itself in the past from the hack culture.
[09:44.830 --> 09:48.640]  O'Reilly originally had a hack and a make, uh, different blogs.
[09:48.950 --> 09:52.640]  Um, the hackerspace kind of is all-inclusive in a way.
[09:53.140 --> 09:57.600]  I understand that it may have some derogatory terminology, but I think we're changing that.
[09:57.600 --> 10:12.620]  Uh, I like the idea of this omni-culture that consumes all things and allows for the re-reuse and re-appropriation and this mix of cultures and reuse of technology in different ways by different people, regardless of soft or hard.
[10:13.830 --> 10:14.580]  Um, no...
[10:14.580 --> 10:21.900]  And actually, most projects I know, uh, are sort of a, a hybrid of hardware and software and, and stuff like that anyway, so those, those boundaries are blurring.
[10:21.960 --> 10:23.280]  And craft and art and whatever.
[10:23.540 --> 10:25.300]  Craft and art, and you've got to know a little bit about everything.
[10:26.060 --> 10:35.740]  Uh, we had, uh, we had, um, uh, a good, uh, portion of, um, of makers in our, in our hackerspace while we were at FIU because we had the infrastructure there to support.
[10:35.840 --> 10:36.360]  We had tables.
[10:36.460 --> 10:36.980]  We had soldering hands.
[10:37.040 --> 10:38.340]  We had all the facilities at the school.
[10:38.660 --> 10:45.690]  When we moved, they kind of, they kind of stayed behind because there's, there's just really no, no room for that at, at a pizza mansion.
[10:45.690 --> 11:02.520]  But regarding the, regarding the, um, the use of the word hackers, uh, hacker and hackerspace, um, a lot of the research that Hack Miami does is very much in the realm of studying techniques of unauthorized access and, and, um, you know, data interception and,
[11:02.700 --> 11:05.080]  uh, malware and the botnet type stuff.
[11:05.240 --> 11:10.060]  Um, but it's not, it's not that we're doing it for, for the, for the bad side.
[11:10.060 --> 11:21.980]  We're not, you know, the, when people hear hackerspace, it's if by now they're associating with someone automatically selling credit card numbers or, or that type of stuff, then, then they're stupid and we don't really even deal with them.
[11:22.160 --> 11:34.680]  Um, a lot of the, a lot of who will, uh, a lot of the, you know, corporations and stuff who will, who will talk to us, they, they understand it's just mostly a vulnerability analyst, penetration testers, and they're just going about it on, on the completely ethical way.
[11:34.940 --> 11:38.300]  And, um, that the word hacker has that as well.
[11:38.300 --> 11:41.400]  It's all just, it's, it's more of a cultural thing instead of criminal.
[11:43.060 --> 11:43.460]  Cool.
[11:43.880 --> 11:44.960]  Uh, throwing it back to the back.
[11:46.200 --> 11:47.120]  Um, yeah.
[11:47.320 --> 11:52.820]  First off, I wanted to say, uh, I heard about hackerspaces, uh, about a week ago and I had no idea.
[11:52.940 --> 11:55.980]  You guys have been very informative and I like this, uh, whole idea.
[11:56.220 --> 12:03.040]  Uh, second off, Nick, for you, uh, as I'm also a resident of DC and I wanted to hear about HacDC a little bit.
[12:03.180 --> 12:05.600]  Everyone else has said something, but I didn't catch anything from you.
[12:06.080 --> 12:09.180]  Um, but, uh, before you go into that, if you mind.
[12:09.600 --> 12:14.260]  Uh, the real question I really want to ask is, what kind of connection do you guys have with your colleges?
[12:14.420 --> 12:24.600]  Because, uh, I'm really interested in going to Stanford and Crash Space, uh, sounds like a very interesting thing I would like to find out about.
[12:24.920 --> 12:25.460]  Well, we're...
[12:25.460 --> 12:26.360]  We're a little far away.
[12:26.540 --> 12:26.660]  Yeah.
[12:26.800 --> 12:27.940]  We're, we're in Los Angeles.
[12:28.300 --> 12:29.600]  Think about UCLA, the TMS program.
[12:30.020 --> 12:32.220]  Uh, there's a CalArts.
[12:32.320 --> 12:36.180]  There's a, uh, there are a lot of good, uh, in Los Angeles, but I think it's, it's closer to Noyfrid.
[12:36.480 --> 12:36.620]  Yeah.
[12:36.680 --> 12:39.660]  There's actually, uh, Sanford is in Silicon Valley.
[12:39.960 --> 12:42.560]  Uh, I usually call it Silly Valley because it's a silly place.
[12:42.580 --> 12:49.980]  But, uh, uh, the next suburb over is Mountain View and there's Hacker Dojo, which is a really cool hackerspace, uh, right there.
[12:52.100 --> 12:55.840]  Um, I guess just to answer that question, HacDC is still doing really great.
[12:55.980 --> 12:59.460]  They just moved into their larger space, fortunately, in the same building.
[12:59.980 --> 13:01.820]  Um, so that's cool.
[13:01.940 --> 13:06.540]  And the great thing about DC is that right about now, um, two new hackerspaces.
[13:06.820 --> 13:10.400]  One, um, DC is normally split in, I guess, three zones.
[13:10.520 --> 13:14.940]  There's Northern Virginia, there's Central DC, and then there's Montgomery, PG County, and Maryland.
[13:15.400 --> 13:17.600]  Um, unallocated space, which is getting going.
[13:17.600 --> 13:30.360]  And I'm proud to be a, uh, a member of this, this starting collective, which is going to build a hackerspace right between HacDC and Baltimore Node in Baltimore, um, in Southern Maryland, the Maryland that borders D.C.
[13:31.060 --> 13:37.200]  And also, um, Rev Space, Reverse Space is opening up, uh, near Dulles Airport in Virginia.
[13:37.380 --> 13:44.360]  So now is actually a really great time for spaces in DC, and I'm glad somebody brought that up that I could point that out, but, um...
[13:44.360 --> 13:44.780]  Thank you.
[13:45.180 --> 13:45.360]  Yep.
[13:45.460 --> 13:45.880]  Oh, you're welcome.
[13:45.880 --> 13:49.560]  Now, now that I'm finished tuning my own logo horn, uh, we'll go back to the front for another question.
[13:50.680 --> 13:53.620]  I've actually, strangely, just been thinking about buying a bus.
[13:54.100 --> 14:09.940]  But, um, it strikes me that driving around from community to community, and, well, from place to place, and trying to form a community overnight, with, you know, a few hundred square feet of space to call your own, would actually be a challenge that might be beyond me personally.
[14:09.940 --> 14:11.080]  But it had me thinking.
[14:11.580 --> 14:21.400]  Um, those of you that mentioned specific sizes for your hackerspaces, kind of mostly mentioned numbers, with the exception of Noisebridge, between one and two thousand square feet.
[14:21.940 --> 14:26.220]  And that's kind of the size that the original Noisebridge space was as well, that I have many pleasant memories from.
[14:26.520 --> 14:35.980]  And even though the giant Noisebridge space has been good for me and my projects, I must admit I feel a certain amount of nostalgia for the cramped pressure cooker that we had originally.
[14:36.440 --> 14:51.780]  Um, and I don't really know if I can extrapolate from that to thinking that there is some kind of community benefit, like everybody feels a little bit more on the spot for being perhaps more considerate of other people, or other projects, or things like that.
[14:51.980 --> 15:03.480]  But I was kind of wondering what you guys collectively thought about that, about, um, whether, you know, that growth, uh, what kind of effects you expect to have from growing to larger spaces, or what you've seen, or what you think might be the effects.
[15:04.800 --> 15:08.040]  Just one, uh, comment concerning the Hackbus thing.
[15:08.160 --> 15:10.160]  It's actually not a comment, it's a call for help.
[15:10.540 --> 15:12.840]  Uh, because the thing is up there all the time.
[15:13.080 --> 15:19.400]  Uh, we started a mailing list, and I would like you to subscribe on the mailing list because we want to solve a problem.
[15:19.600 --> 15:27.540]  It would be really great to have something like a, uh, like a tracking system for Hackbuses, and we tried to develop that.
[15:27.640 --> 15:31.140]  There are actually systems out there to do that, but we are just too stupid to do that.
[15:31.630 --> 15:32.060]  APRS.
[15:32.440 --> 15:36.900]  You're hackers out there, so maybe subscribe to our list, and maybe we can get it working.
[15:37.020 --> 15:37.340]  I don't know.
[15:37.540 --> 15:39.860]  But now, back to the Hackerspace's question.
[15:40.240 --> 15:44.740]  Um, okay, this is, uh, I'm kind of sad that the CCC guys left.
[15:45.100 --> 16:02.360]  Um, I think there's a fundamental point at which a Hackerspace has to decide whether it's gonna rise above being just the sum total of its community, and allow its Hackerspace to either become something more, like the CCC did when they laid down their bylaws and said,
[16:02.580 --> 16:06.280]  we are the CCC, and this thing that we've created is going to outlast us.
[16:06.520 --> 16:07.900]  That limits you in a way.
[16:08.060 --> 16:12.460]  Uh, it becomes more of a, a foundation for a very large organization.
[16:12.920 --> 16:15.860]  And as you said, that means you lose that community.
[16:16.420 --> 16:22.000]  Uh, it, it's more strict in guidelines that are designed to further the CCC for a very long time.
[16:22.460 --> 16:24.320]  And maybe that will happen in the United States.
[16:24.520 --> 16:26.660]  I, I kind of hope it doesn't, because I agree with you.
[16:26.720 --> 16:28.640]  I like this, the community aspect.
[16:28.640 --> 16:41.440]  I like knowing the people being, I like that each one of us is a completely different group of people who are very much born of our geographic location, or the people who just work together to build our, our community.
[16:42.620 --> 16:45.500]  I sort of like to picture the world as the Paleolithic era.
[16:45.800 --> 16:46.880]  And there's all these dinosaurs around.
[16:47.060 --> 16:50.160]  And you have the universities, they have a little tiny head, and they have a giant body.
[16:50.360 --> 16:51.920]  And to get their attention takes a lot.
[16:52.220 --> 16:54.100]  And to get them moving somewhere takes a lot.
[16:54.220 --> 16:56.260]  But they move, when they move, there's a whole huge thing.
[16:56.760 --> 17:02.200]  And I always pictured, Hackerspace is more like the little euteraptors and the tiny, you know, they're small, they're agile.
[17:02.680 --> 17:05.540]  They may occasionally run off cliffs or get eaten by something larger.
[17:06.520 --> 17:12.500]  Yeah, and it, as you know, as you look at evolution, things go from being small, and they find a niche, and then they grow in that niche.
[17:12.740 --> 17:17.480]  And I think that's actually what's happening right now in the Hackerspace community, is a lot of people have found that niche to fill.
[17:17.620 --> 17:23.360]  And the thing is, who's going to grow, you know, what new variants of this idea are going to grow to fill that medium niche?
[17:23.640 --> 17:26.060]  And I think that's kind of what we're finding out in the U.S. right now.
[17:26.640 --> 17:29.000]  It sounds like Germany's experiment and had a little longer history.
[17:29.940 --> 17:35.460]  I personally feel that if we keep the tenor that's already existed in this, we are going to keep the small agile spaces.
[17:35.780 --> 17:38.600]  We're going to get more tiny spaces like in garages or in basements.
[17:39.200 --> 17:42.900]  And then we, I think, you know, some communities will decide for our community it's right to grow.
[17:43.780 --> 17:47.940]  But, you know, we start out in 700 square foot and move to about 1,500.
[17:48.360 --> 17:53.760]  And it actually, there's moments where it's like, yeah, it was kind of fun to like be able to like do this and hit half the people in the Hackerspace.
[17:55.080 --> 18:01.160]  I think for hackerspaces, it's possible to have like a specific sort of like groups collaborate.
[18:01.480 --> 18:13.580]  And for example, within our heat sink labs, there's a specific group of people called the sink fleet who meet up on their own time at heat sink labs to work on near space projects.
[18:13.740 --> 18:20.100]  So there is still a way for people to meet up together and do their own projects.
[18:20.100 --> 18:23.380]  It's just within what realm and how specific you get.
[18:28.210 --> 18:33.470]  Yes, I live in a not very large city where the only place to buy a power supply is Best Buy.
[18:34.210 --> 18:39.730]  And I currently work for a business that I have an opportunity to open a Hackerspace if I wanted to.
[18:40.050 --> 18:49.430]  And I was wondering if it would be better to go for a not-for-profit to help, you know, my community more and giving them an area to work in or if it would be better to do a for-profit place.
[18:49.430 --> 18:53.350]  And what's the problems you guys had going for not-for-profit or for-profit?
[18:55.070 --> 18:58.390]  I think I'm de facto on the we are a for-profit.
[18:59.330 --> 19:01.990]  The benefits of the for-profit are simple.
[19:02.650 --> 19:04.270]  It's very easy.
[19:04.850 --> 19:09.850]  In fact, if you're a 5013C and you don't finish your paperwork, you end up being a for-profit.
[19:10.830 --> 19:17.550]  So, it is de facto standard once you incorporate, you are a for-profit until you finish your 5013C.
[19:17.870 --> 19:22.470]  The taxes are a little bit easier to do, but you run into some weird incongruencies.
[19:23.270 --> 19:31.010]  Sadly, with the not-for-profit, our founders every year end up having to pay taxes on the LLC.
[19:31.010 --> 19:33.410]  And then we have to reimburse them after the fact.
[19:33.610 --> 19:37.150]  And it's kind of a pain for them because they have to file all this extra paperwork.
[19:37.310 --> 19:39.490]  They have to lay down this money and they get paid back.
[19:41.150 --> 19:52.370]  But we have other benefits where if, like, the Discovery Channel or some other group comes to us and says, hey, we'd like to do something with you, we can negotiate with them without any of the restrictions of being a 5013C.
[19:52.370 --> 19:58.490]  However, we also don't get free stuff from universities when they go, hey, we're throwing out our old, you know, furniture.
[19:58.770 --> 19:59.430]  Would you like some?
[20:01.090 --> 20:09.870]  Each way you go, I mean, the 513C guys can speak to it, but we've had some real benefits in terms of our partnerships and how we do things, you know?
[20:11.030 --> 20:19.930]  Yeah, so NYC Resistor and Noisebridge were born out of Chaos Camp 2007, the same place, the same time.
[20:20.690 --> 20:34.530]  NYC Resistor with Breed and the group founding, including Matt, decided to go the easy route of getting LLC and they were a hackerspace within several weeks.
[20:35.370 --> 20:46.270]  Noisebridge, we kept meeting and talking about what would be better for-profit, non-profit, and if we're a non-profit, what kind of non-profit, and should we be membership, would it be board driven, and on and on and on and on.
[20:46.270 --> 20:50.790]  And we didn't get together to hack the law, we got together to hack the planet.
[20:51.510 --> 20:52.850]  So, but...
[20:55.750 --> 21:15.870]  Yeah, so it's an arduous process, but the thing is we ended up collecting enough money just from, you know, $5 here, $25 there to get $2,000 together to pay a lawyer who exists primarily to create non-profits, that's 501c3 in the United States, and she did a great job.
[21:16.150 --> 21:26.070]  And it took about a year, but we are now 501c3, and our entire process is documented.
[21:26.430 --> 21:34.930]  Most of it is now on our website, including all of the paperwork we had to do for the IRS, for the State of California.
[21:34.930 --> 21:39.330]  Most states are... have a lot of differences, but there's a lot of overlap.
[21:39.650 --> 21:50.830]  So, no space... I'm hoping we'll need to spend $2,000 to go through that process again, and maybe you can short circuit it to a few months rather than a year.
[21:51.830 --> 21:55.630]  There are a lot of trade-offs for every decision you make.
[21:56.150 --> 22:09.290]  What we wanted to do at Noisebridge, and I would recommend this approach for everyone, is to create a legal structure that, as closely as possible, reflects who you are as a group.
[22:09.630 --> 22:17.670]  It's not going to be exactly the same, because the law is one thing, and our day-to-day reality lives are another.
[22:17.670 --> 22:31.250]  But for us, being the, you know, the hippie, punk, anarchist, etc., a group that we are, being a non-profit, membership-run organization suited us, reflected us the best.
[22:31.390 --> 22:33.030]  So that's why we went that way.
[22:34.210 --> 22:38.350]  You know, Bre, I've known for a long time, he's very much expedient.
[22:38.430 --> 22:40.250]  Let's just get things done and hack.
[22:40.730 --> 22:44.390]  And so the LLC was a really good approach for them.
[22:45.510 --> 22:47.570]  NYC Resistor doesn't actually make a profit.
[22:48.130 --> 22:51.430]  It was just an expedient way to get a legal structure up and going.
[22:51.850 --> 22:53.430]  Well, that's not strictly true.
[22:53.690 --> 22:59.790]  According to the IRS, we've made a profit every year, even when we moved, and tried to drive our costs so high that we wouldn't make a profit.
[23:01.690 --> 23:07.270]  But in lines with what he's talking about, I think you have to fundamentally identify what a hackerspace is.
[23:07.270 --> 23:10.430]  And I consider it a library for doing.
[23:10.650 --> 23:14.450]  And in that regard, you do have private and public libraries, and they serve different interests.
[23:15.010 --> 23:21.690]  But as it is, you're kind of set in this cookie-cutter mold of 5013C or LLC or something to that effect.
[23:22.370 --> 23:23.530]  And there's nothing else.
[23:23.830 --> 23:28.550]  I would actually really encourage people to move to Vermont in some ways.
[23:28.550 --> 23:33.250]  Because I think hackerspaces are a wonderful opportunity to really sort of push the boundary.
[23:33.410 --> 23:34.610]  So we started as an S-Corp.
[23:34.770 --> 23:36.470]  We're looking into becoming a 501C3.
[23:36.610 --> 23:37.570]  But there's a lot of stuff.
[23:37.750 --> 23:40.530]  Like in Vermont, there's a low-profit corporations.
[23:40.730 --> 23:41.830]  And there's a lot of...
[23:41.830 --> 23:51.830]  And in social entrepreneurship world, there's a lot of really interesting legal paperwork going on in terms of trying to sort of redefine what's possible in a business structure.
[23:51.830 --> 24:05.770]  And I think, honestly, you know, as much as, you know, a lot of people are allergic to MBAs in this community for good reason, there's some really interesting stuff, particularly in the social entrepreneurship community that are going on.
[24:05.810 --> 24:10.990]  And I think we should try to push our state governments into giving sort of more interesting corporate structures.
[24:11.310 --> 24:14.530]  And, you know, you can just start it and file for a 501C3 later.
[24:15.770 --> 24:22.790]  Yeah, and I forgot to mention, one of the advantages of being 501C3 is it induces people...
[24:22.790 --> 24:24.670]  It gives people an incentive to donate.
[24:24.950 --> 24:32.150]  And when we got our space, we instantly needed first months, last months, and deposit very quickly.
[24:32.970 --> 24:37.150]  So within 24 hours, being a non-profit, we got $12,000.
[24:38.410 --> 24:41.390]  That wouldn't have happened for us if we weren't non-profit.
[24:42.030 --> 24:44.830]  And just to mention options, there's also a 501C11.
[24:45.150 --> 24:48.790]  You can form a cooperative in a lot of states if you're a cooperative of the members.
[24:49.210 --> 24:54.930]  And there's not someone owning stock in you that's considered a state non-profit, although it's not a 501C3.
[24:55.370 --> 24:57.670]  So there are some other legal vehicles out there.
[24:57.810 --> 24:59.930]  You know, it's the sort of thing where every state's a little different.
[25:00.070 --> 25:01.450]  Some states are awesome, some really suck.
[25:01.750 --> 25:08.270]  So I guess, you know, I'm not a lawyer, but maybe if you can Google one, they might be able to help a little bit.
[25:09.250 --> 25:12.870]  On that note, we personally hate doing our taxes.
[25:13.170 --> 25:18.590]  We have an accountant, and I highly recommend that hackerspaces, at least for their first couple years, do get an accountant.
[25:18.810 --> 25:19.810]  Walk through with them.
[25:19.970 --> 25:23.950]  Make sure that you don't screw up and end up with a situation where you owe a lot of money to the IRS.
[25:24.610 --> 25:26.970]  I mean, you're going to run into situations where you end up owing money.
[25:27.010 --> 25:30.250]  It happened even to the Seabase guys with their power bill.
[25:30.670 --> 25:32.630]  So, you know, you've got to be careful.
[25:32.790 --> 25:35.930]  You want to, you know, be really smart, build up a cash buffer.
[25:36.090 --> 25:43.150]  But you really want to make sure that when you go through this stuff, you have professionals sit down with you, pay them money if you have to, and, you know, figure it out.
[25:43.370 --> 25:44.530]  Do it right the first time.
[25:48.410 --> 25:49.970]  I just want to say one more thing.
[25:49.970 --> 26:03.830]  I know that one of our members has kind of started up a mailing list, I believe, on hackerspaces.org for finances, just getting everyone who does finances and hackerspaces kind of together to talk about, you know, the problems that they're having and how they fix it and things like that.
[26:05.490 --> 26:16.950]  And I was going to say the nightmare of the 501c3 paperwork, it's supposedly the IRS is saying that they're going to have it, that you can do it on an online web application by the end of the year.
[26:17.210 --> 26:19.790]  We'll see how fast they move on that or if it's even good.
[26:19.790 --> 26:23.850]  But normally it costs $300 to file a 501c3.
[26:24.150 --> 26:26.450]  They've bumped that up to $400 now.
[26:26.710 --> 26:29.010]  And then if you do it online, it's $300.
[26:29.710 --> 26:31.570]  So that's also something to think about.
[26:31.650 --> 26:36.450]  Maybe you might want to wait until they actually have it up and running and save yourself some money and do it online.
[26:37.250 --> 26:39.690]  Or since it's the government, who knows when they'll have it done.
[26:41.770 --> 26:50.610]  And Noisebridge on the bottom of our front page is all of the information for 501c3 if you want to check that out and see if that's something that you and your space are into.
[26:51.890 --> 26:53.030]  All right, next question.
[26:54.370 --> 26:58.250]  So I guess I grew up with the advent of hackerspaces.
[26:58.570 --> 27:02.870]  And I was really lucky to have a shop in my basement when I was growing up.
[27:02.890 --> 27:03.950]  So I could just build stuff.
[27:03.950 --> 27:10.450]  But as soon as I, you know, chose to go to college, all of a sudden the question was, is there going to be a place for me to play?
[27:11.310 --> 27:12.770]  Originally thinking dorm room.
[27:13.010 --> 27:15.610]  I ended up being lucky enough to have something like Miters.
[27:15.850 --> 27:17.610]  I don't know if you guys have heard of it.
[27:17.890 --> 27:22.570]  But as I understand, it's a pretty unique place in a university.
[27:22.770 --> 27:32.150]  There aren't too many student-run machine shops that are also open to the public and something that I would call hackerspace in a university.
[27:32.950 --> 27:41.770]  I was wondering what you guys would think about trying to start up more of these kind of university hackerspaces that are completely self-sufficient.
[27:42.010 --> 27:44.270]  They make money from some other thing.
[27:44.450 --> 27:48.210]  We get it from working at an electronics swap fest meet.
[27:49.990 --> 27:54.490]  And, like, I think it would be a really good idea to try and push this in other universities.
[27:55.690 --> 28:00.610]  So, just before anyone answers, I would like to point out that's actually a really good idea for anyone in a rural area.
[28:01.190 --> 28:02.450]  Contact your local college.
[28:02.450 --> 28:04.090]  Because a lot of you guys do have machine shops.
[28:04.150 --> 28:06.270]  And a lot of them may not mention it publicly.
[28:06.290 --> 28:07.970]  But they do actually have, like...
[28:07.970 --> 28:11.550]  You go in, you do a quick training course, and they'll give you access at certain times during the day.
[28:11.630 --> 28:12.470]  It's like their libraries.
[28:12.470 --> 28:16.770]  You can pay a monthly semester fee to use it, depending on the school.
[28:16.930 --> 28:19.330]  Yeah, make use of whatever local resources you have.
[28:19.690 --> 28:22.030]  Universities, libraries, you know, whatever.
[28:22.470 --> 28:24.150]  Robotics group, Linux user group.
[28:24.470 --> 28:26.010]  Whatever's available, make use of it.
[28:26.110 --> 28:27.630]  You know, that's part of our community.
[28:28.030 --> 28:38.830]  Yeah, the caveat on that, of course, is that if you're doing that with a university or a business or something else, there's always somebody else who can sort of pull the rug out, you know?
[28:38.830 --> 28:40.490]  And it's sort of, like, out of your hands.
[28:40.690 --> 28:47.110]  So you have freedom for a while, but there's someone else, like, kind of, that controls the strings, and that's something to be aware of.
[28:47.170 --> 28:49.830]  I went to a university with a computer science house, and I absolutely loved it.
[28:49.910 --> 28:50.250]  It was great.
[28:50.290 --> 28:59.170]  And we actually made our extra money for playing and taking trips by running our own computer pod, which was, you know, like a campus computer pod, but it was kind of just in one of the dorms.
[28:59.250 --> 29:00.870]  We were open later, things like that.
[29:01.130 --> 29:02.410]  And ran into exactly that.
[29:02.530 --> 29:05.050]  After a couple of years, the university said, well, this isn't making us money.
[29:05.070 --> 29:08.210]  We can turn that into four dorm rooms, and we're just going to shut you down.
[29:08.770 --> 29:14.070]  So I would say definitely go for that, but also understand that, you know, it's one of those design pattern situations.
[29:14.470 --> 29:17.810]  You know, one of the patterns is stand on your own, and if you're not going to do it, yeah.
[29:17.930 --> 29:27.770]  Yeah, we should really remind the people to check out the hackerspaces design patterns, because they're pretty much out there, and Jens Olig, one of the guys who wrote them, pretty much says, no, do not do it.
[29:27.930 --> 29:33.930]  Do not, like, get yourself attached to a bigger institution that can dominate you in some form.
[29:34.110 --> 29:35.210]  So try to be independent.
[29:35.210 --> 29:38.790]  That's what he says, and most of the time, it actually is true.
[29:39.170 --> 29:46.150]  And if you're going to do something different, just be aware that there's a good reason why it's very common to do it one way, and if you're doing it another way, just be aware of that.
[29:46.750 --> 30:04.450]  Yeah, one of the reasons why we started our hackerspace is because a lot of us found that at our universities, or wherever we were studying school at, a lot of these universities have access to resources that we don't know about, or, like, huge 3D printers that they bought from...
[30:04.450 --> 30:11.730]  a lot of money from the university needs money, but unless you're taking a class, or unless the advisor likes you, you don't get access to these privileges.
[30:13.430 --> 30:27.650]  So that's... that's... I mean, if the university supports you, and lets you use everything that... or all the things that you want to do, and pushes you forward with this idea of a hackerspace, and that's great, I think you should do it, but...
[30:27.650 --> 30:29.490]  There is a hackerspace at a school.
[30:29.630 --> 30:30.230]  It's called Build.
[30:30.510 --> 30:30.690]  Yeah.
[30:30.950 --> 30:33.010]  And what I... you know about them?
[30:33.410 --> 30:37.390]  And I was talking to someone from there, and what I found fascinating about that is that...
[30:37.390 --> 30:39.370]  I was, what is your structure?
[30:39.410 --> 30:39.950]  I asked them.
[30:40.070 --> 30:41.450]  You charge member fees or whatever.
[30:41.710 --> 30:44.310]  They said, no, it's free, and you get a key, and you have 24-hour access.
[30:44.510 --> 30:45.470]  And I was like, are you serious?
[30:45.930 --> 30:46.390]  And I was like, yeah.
[30:46.630 --> 30:47.990]  So that's a benefit of it.
[30:48.730 --> 30:53.450]  One thing to be aware of, also, is that universities are really paranoid about what goes over their network.
[30:54.170 --> 30:56.810]  So it's better for machine shops, but if you want to, like...
[30:58.310 --> 30:59.510]  Step over the network side.
[30:59.750 --> 31:05.030]  IT departments tend to get really, really upset if you're sniffing packets and stuff like that.
[31:05.930 --> 31:07.870]  Yeah, and as soon as you want to buy...
[31:07.870 --> 31:13.930]  want to build, like, sex machines and stuff like that, or, like, flame-throwing robots, I mean, ooh!
[31:14.330 --> 31:15.890]  The university will tell you, f*ck off.
[31:15.890 --> 31:18.510]  Yeah, they're not too happy when you have a box of hand grenades shipped to you.
[31:19.390 --> 31:20.190]  Next question.
[31:21.210 --> 31:23.070]  I was going to mention some real fast.
[31:23.210 --> 31:26.630]  There's also, NASA has a hack space at one of their places.
[31:27.370 --> 31:27.810]  Really?
[31:27.810 --> 31:29.370]  Yeah, they're working with the Titan One.
[31:32.970 --> 31:39.990]  Yeah, I just wanted to put in a good word for the hackerspace we built down in Raleigh, Chapel Hill, Durham area.
[31:40.350 --> 31:41.430]  20,000 square feet.
[31:41.790 --> 31:42.630]  We have a lot of people.
[31:42.890 --> 31:48.610]  About 80% of the people that were at the local 2600 meetings for years are the core group in it.
[31:48.610 --> 31:53.630]  And there was a disparaging remark made by the gentleman to Mitch's right about TechShop.
[31:53.770 --> 31:59.590]  So we solved all of our financial and liability issues by opening TechShop.
[31:59.690 --> 32:10.810]  But the founder is a hacker of serious intent, and if we don't have a flame-throwing or plasma shooting project, you know, going on, he's, like, not happy.
[32:10.810 --> 32:15.790]  So we're absolutely turning it, it is a hackerspace, that's the phrase we use.
[32:16.310 --> 32:20.950]  And so, you know, TechShop doesn't have to be, like, handcuffs and this sort of stuff.
[32:21.130 --> 32:22.930]  So it's a high-end hackerspace.
[32:23.050 --> 32:23.590]  We're experimenting.
[32:23.790 --> 32:24.410]  We'll see if it works.
[32:24.570 --> 32:33.730]  But like I said, the people who set it up, and I'm one of the original people setting it up, we're all, like, the rules are all the reasonable rules, and we're ignoring, you know, everything else.
[32:33.730 --> 32:35.790]  But that shouldn't be taken as a disparaging remark.
[32:36.010 --> 32:37.330]  I'm saying they're different things.
[32:37.790 --> 32:49.310]  And from, like, a public perspective, they, at least we're in Los Angeles and in California where we're at, like, people who are interested in TechShop was different than people who are interested in hackerspace.
[32:49.450 --> 32:49.570]  Right.
[32:50.110 --> 32:52.010]  A lot of us did go for the machines.
[32:52.190 --> 32:55.330]  We went there for the machines, but it's absolutely about the community.
[32:55.530 --> 32:57.010]  I go there for the people.
[32:57.170 --> 33:04.910]  And again, like I said, the overlap between the 2600 meetings and the people that are there at the TechShop almost, you know, daily or weekly.
[33:05.010 --> 33:05.810]  No, that's absolutely fantastic.
[33:06.170 --> 33:06.490]  And it is.
[33:06.630 --> 33:08.510]  It's a high-end hackerspace.
[33:08.690 --> 33:10.990]  We're not breaking even yet.
[33:11.170 --> 33:12.470]  It's the for-profit model.
[33:12.590 --> 33:16.330]  But that is one way to solve all the liability issues and everything all at once.
[33:16.430 --> 33:18.310]  You just get a boilerplate, you know, and then...
[33:18.310 --> 33:30.010]  Yeah, we actually had people who came to our first meeting who thought the idea of coming to a meeting where they had to, like, talk to other people was a negative thing and didn't ever come back because they didn't want to talk to people.
[33:30.010 --> 33:32.850]  They just wanted, like, you know, access to a laser cutter.
[33:33.130 --> 33:33.250]  Okay.
[33:33.630 --> 33:35.310]  Anyway, ours isn't like that at all.
[33:35.390 --> 33:39.570]  Well, let me, just a side note, TechShop, I'm a lifetime member of TechShop.
[33:39.730 --> 33:40.410]  So am I.
[33:40.690 --> 33:44.790]  And Jim Newton, who started TechShop, I think is a great guy.
[33:45.270 --> 33:48.810]  TechShop isn't a hackerspace, but there's a great deal of overlap between the two.
[33:49.210 --> 33:56.650]  And at Noisebridge, we recently worked out a reciprocal agreement where anyone who's a member of TechShop gets half-price membership.
[33:56.650 --> 34:01.410]  at Noisebridge, anyone who's a member of Noisebridge gets half-price membership at TechShop.
[34:01.590 --> 34:09.050]  And assuming this works out, and it will, it is, this will probably be expanded for all hackerspaces.
[34:09.790 --> 34:14.040]  We don't do it in a TechShop that we would do in a hackerspace.
[34:14.160 --> 34:15.860]  Let me say, we don't have any constraints.
[34:16.380 --> 34:21.540]  Okay, and then I think this is going to be the last question, because I just got dinged on time.
[34:21.760 --> 34:22.400]  So Alex, take it away.
[34:23.660 --> 34:24.280]  Real quick.
[34:24.800 --> 34:26.440]  What's up with the Hackerspace Olympics?
[34:29.900 --> 34:37.320]  The Hackerspace Olympics is an idea that was pretty much created by people at Pumping Station One in Chicago.
[34:39.280 --> 34:42.860]  And are other Pumping Station One people here?
[34:44.200 --> 34:44.940]  Yay.
[34:45.460 --> 34:51.020]  So yeah, the idea is to have friendly competition to encourage creativity.
[34:51.520 --> 34:54.240]  And is it actually happening at the Detroit Maker Faire?
[34:57.750 --> 35:07.850]  Okay, so one of the things happening at the Detroit Maker Faire will be a competition of people using these toys for adults.
[35:08.570 --> 35:08.930]  Power wheels.
[35:08.930 --> 35:09.170]  Power wheels.
[35:09.990 --> 35:12.950]  Souping them up, but using stock body.
[35:13.490 --> 35:19.310]  So that will be a really fun thing to see all these full-grown people bopping around in those at very high speeds.
[35:20.230 --> 35:21.710]  Unsafe at any speed, for sure.
[35:22.610 --> 35:36.910]  Well, we've been bopping around ideas of having sort of a hackerspace triathlon competition where something like you have to create software which will perform some task.
[35:37.570 --> 35:44.270]  And when you do that, you get a clue of where to find a box that has a whole bunch of locks that you have to pick.
[35:44.410 --> 35:50.470]  And you open up the boxes, locks, and then inside are some parts that you have to build.
[35:50.470 --> 35:54.610]  And when you build them, then you have to turn off the TV across the room or something like that.
[35:55.650 --> 35:56.490]  Yeah, so I don't know.
[35:56.610 --> 35:59.910]  But it really hasn't gelled into a specific date and time.
[36:00.610 --> 36:03.790]  But if anyone has ideas and wants to collaborate on that, let's do it.
[36:05.750 --> 36:06.530]  All right, guys.
[36:06.830 --> 36:08.490]  Thank you very, very much.
[36:08.630 --> 36:10.290]  I thought this was a great two-hour panel.
[36:10.530 --> 36:12.530]  Give a huge round of applause to our panelists.
[36:23.840 --> 36:25.360]  And thank you so much.
[36:25.440 --> 36:27.520]  I think this has been another really great panel.
[36:27.520 --> 36:28.940]  Just two quick announcements.
[36:29.120 --> 36:34.020]  At 11 o'clock in the Video Temple, we have a concert going on in the Mezzanine level.
[36:34.040 --> 36:39.200]  And your friends who aren't coming to the conference can get into it for $10.
[36:39.720 --> 36:41.780]  They're selling wrist bracelets right now.
[36:42.440 --> 36:48.580]  And Jason Scott will be doing a pre-Get Lamp presentation over in Lovelace right after this.
[36:48.580 --> 36:50.360]  So thank you guys again so much.
[36:50.480 --> 36:51.760]  Give yourselves a huge round of applause.
[36:52.160 --> 36:52.960]  Thank you.