[00:02.580 --> 00:09.620]  I don't just willy-nilly show my porn to everybody when I'm sober.
[00:12.800 --> 00:16.100]  No, I'm not drinking until after my talk.
[01:00.010 --> 01:01.390]  No, I haven't started yet.
[01:03.270 --> 01:05.410]  Okay, thank you.
[01:06.170 --> 01:08.050]  Every speaker deserves an introduction.
[01:08.490 --> 01:10.110]  We'd like to welcome Nicole Neulist.
[01:10.110 --> 01:14.610]  She's going to talk about, hey, don't call that guy a noob, toward a more welcoming hacker community.
[01:14.910 --> 01:18.010]  And as you notice, we're an hour behind in this room.
[01:18.150 --> 01:18.970]  We'll continue with that.
[01:19.310 --> 01:23.830]  And we'll also have the hacker cinema in here at 1 a.m.
[01:23.990 --> 01:25.090]  So welcome to Nicole.
[01:26.250 --> 01:26.610]  Thank you.
[01:30.780 --> 01:33.240]  As he said, my name is Nicole Neulist.
[01:33.560 --> 01:36.040]  Nicole, Nikki, Rogueclown, Hey Blue.
[01:36.320 --> 01:38.660]  I mean, I answer to just about anything.
[01:39.360 --> 01:45.280]  And I'm here to talk a little bit about how the hacker community can be a little more welcoming to new people.
[01:46.320 --> 01:48.560]  First of all, a few words about who I am.
[01:49.400 --> 01:50.980]  I live in Chicago.
[01:50.980 --> 01:54.720]  I helped start Pumping Station One, which is the hacker space in Chicago.
[01:55.320 --> 01:59.780]  Got involved with that in December of 2008 and have been involved with it ever since.
[02:00.520 --> 02:05.700]  But a little more pertinent to this talk, I'm still fairly new to the hacker community.
[02:05.700 --> 02:12.140]  I didn't stumble across anything particularly hacker-y until early 2008.
[02:13.240 --> 02:17.280]  A night of random Wikipedia clicking at, you know, 4 a.m.
[02:17.380 --> 02:22.220]  when I was in law school and bored out of my mind, let me do the Phone Losers of America.
[02:22.580 --> 02:32.520]  Started posting on that forum, started talking to people through that, then got, you know, clued into things called 2600 meetings and hacker cons and just kind of snowballed from there.
[02:32.840 --> 02:36.100]  My first hacker con was actually the last hope.
[02:36.780 --> 02:41.000]  And then, you know, I've been going to quite a few ever since, just going around meeting a lot of people.
[02:41.400 --> 02:45.520]  But yeah, I've still really only been around for about two years-ish.
[02:45.800 --> 02:49.840]  So being a newbie is really fresh in my mind.
[02:51.580 --> 02:53.680]  A few words about what this talk is.
[02:54.540 --> 03:06.720]  It's a set of ideas to keep in mind in order to make the hacker community less mysterious and more open to people who are new to it or just trying to figure out what is the hacker community?
[03:07.060 --> 03:08.080]  What are you doing?
[03:08.980 --> 03:10.060]  What hackers do?
[03:10.260 --> 03:10.920]  Who are hackers?
[03:11.180 --> 03:12.900]  What can I do in the hacker community?
[03:14.500 --> 03:17.040]  It's applicable to hacker groups of all kinds.
[03:17.220 --> 03:21.680]  Hacker spaces, organizations, more informal meetings.
[03:22.100 --> 03:26.140]  You know, there are certain pieces of advice that apply a little better in one context or the other.
[03:26.500 --> 03:38.580]  But it's meant to be a general framework, a way of thinking, of approaching how to deal with new people and bring them in, make them feel a part of a community, no matter what kind of an organization that you're part of.
[03:39.600 --> 03:41.840]  A few words about what this talk isn't.
[03:42.700 --> 03:49.700]  As much as it's a framework, a way of thinking, I'm not going to be able to tell you step by step how to make it more welcoming.
[03:49.940 --> 04:01.240]  You know, I can't sit here and say, do this thing, say these words, go through all of these steps, and you're immediately going to breed this much more welcoming culture.
[04:01.380 --> 04:03.800]  I mean, it's a very interpersonal sort of thing.
[04:03.940 --> 04:06.440]  And there are different ways to approach it.
[04:06.620 --> 04:08.220]  This is a set of general principles.
[04:09.940 --> 04:15.700]  Now, let me give you a little bit of a road map about what I'm going to be talking about before I begin.
[04:16.020 --> 04:22.340]  First of all, I'm going to talk about you and your role in making the hacker community a more welcoming place.
[04:22.640 --> 04:32.900]  Then I'm going to talk about what you can do within your organization to make it more welcoming to people who are, you know, experiencing you, experiencing your organization for the first time.
[04:33.440 --> 04:58.340]  Then I'm going to talk a little bit about what you can do outside of You know, it's possibly a little more towards publicity than it is towards how to run your organization, how to do your organization culture, but part of going out and trying to meet people and telling them about your organization is conveying what the culture is of your organization and convincing them,
[04:58.500 --> 05:00.900]  hey, maybe this is a place where I'd feel welcome.
[05:01.000 --> 05:06.620]  Maybe this is a place where my skills would be well utilized and I would have something to gain from coming here.
[05:07.420 --> 05:26.800]  Finally, I'm going to talk about special responsibilities of organizational leadership, just because, you know, whether you're an officer or a director or just a longtime member that people look up to as a leader, you have some special responsibilities and you're in a special role to make people feel more welcome in your organization.
[05:28.080 --> 05:30.160]  First I'm going to talk a little bit about your role.
[05:30.180 --> 05:37.920]  I guess it seems kind of weird to start a talk about how to make other people feel more welcome by starting with you.
[05:38.280 --> 05:46.260]  But it is an extremely... it's a process that you have to internalize and it's something that you need to put yourself in their shoes.
[05:47.480 --> 05:50.180]  You're all ambassadors of the hacker community.
[05:50.640 --> 05:52.280]  The hacker community is global.
[05:52.440 --> 05:53.520]  There are hackers everywhere.
[05:53.900 --> 05:57.680]  But what new people experience is going to be very local.
[05:58.160 --> 06:09.200]  You know, I wouldn't walk into a 2600... let's say I walked into a 2600 meeting and, you know, there were some people that felt really welcome and some people that, you know, maybe not so much or walk in a... well, any meeting really.
[06:09.600 --> 06:16.840]  I'm not going to go there and think, oh, some of these people aren't being very nice to me, but maybe the hackers in Berlin are nicer.
[06:17.140 --> 06:19.840]  Maybe the hackers in Russia are nicer.
[06:20.020 --> 06:21.660]  I don't know, like hackers somewhere else.
[06:22.140 --> 06:27.540]  I'm not, you know, if you're new to the hacker community, I'm not going to move somewhere to try and find nicer hackers.
[06:28.120 --> 06:34.040]  I'm going to see that local group as, you know, as a microcosm, as an entry point.
[06:34.040 --> 06:39.140]  And if I don't feel comfortable, there, I probably wouldn't want to explore it any further.
[06:39.920 --> 06:44.700]  And no matter how long you've been involved, you are an ambassador to the hacker community.
[06:44.960 --> 06:51.020]  I don't care if this is your first hacker event ever, or if you've been around for 20 years.
[06:51.280 --> 07:03.720]  The point is, you're here, you're putting yourself out there at a hacker conference, and, you know, you're in a position that you could be talking to people who are interested in getting involved in the hacker community.
[07:05.380 --> 07:12.280]  And you, you know, how you treat them is going to be, you know, crucial in whether they decide they want to stay involved or not.
[07:13.860 --> 07:16.460]  Now think a little bit about when you were coming into the community.
[07:16.660 --> 07:19.620]  Your first meeting, your first event, your first convention.
[07:20.880 --> 07:24.100]  I'm sure it was really exciting, but, you know, it might have been a little nerve-wracking.
[07:24.200 --> 07:25.960]  There's all these people who you don't know.
[07:26.540 --> 07:29.520]  The, you know, hacker is such a loaded word.
[07:29.720 --> 07:32.040]  You know, you come in there, it's like, wow, you know, are these people all...
[07:32.040 --> 07:33.140]  Are these people criminals?
[07:33.380 --> 07:34.960]  Or are these people, you know, stand-up guys?
[07:35.800 --> 07:37.040]  Everyone here has a story.
[07:37.380 --> 07:42.660]  You know, for me, it was a little bit... it was a little bit scary when I started getting involved.
[07:42.900 --> 07:45.720]  Because, like I said, I was... I was still in law school, you know.
[07:45.860 --> 07:47.260]  We all know how well that turned out.
[07:47.340 --> 07:48.360]  I work in IT now.
[07:48.820 --> 07:51.900]  But, you know, it was my last year of law school.
[07:51.900 --> 07:55.080]  I had basically the background check from hell coming up.
[07:55.080 --> 07:59.200]  I was taking the bar and, you know, part of that, you know, you don't have the test only.
[07:59.300 --> 08:09.280]  You also have a big background check where you have to fill out ten pages of forms and tell them everywhere you've ever lived and, you know, everyone you know and everywhere you've worked and blah, blah, blah.
[08:10.120 --> 08:11.300]  And it sucked.
[08:11.380 --> 08:26.220]  And the last thing I wanted was after, you know, going to school for three years and busting my ass and, you know, going into this career to be dinged because I got mixed up with these hackers and they thought that, you know, I didn't have the right moral fitness to be a lawyer.
[08:27.480 --> 08:37.620]  And, you know, I eventually got over that and, of course, it didn't stop me from passing the test, but it was still just a really... it was kind of scary and it was... I was a little paranoid.
[08:38.320 --> 08:51.080]  And, you know, I'm sure all of you have, you know, when you got involved in the hacker community for the first time, you may have had concerns like that, you may have just had concerns as in, you know, these are these people I don't know, they're using these terms I don't know,
[08:51.840 --> 08:55.340]  everyone's been involved in it longer than I have, will they accept me?
[08:56.280 --> 08:57.960]  And it's a little nerve-wracking.
[08:57.960 --> 09:02.460]  So you need to keep that in mind when new people start trying to get involved in your organization.
[09:04.340 --> 09:05.440]  But you all stayed.
[09:06.520 --> 09:06.920]  Why?
[09:09.180 --> 09:15.480]  You stayed, in part at least, because there probably were people that were welcoming to you.
[09:15.640 --> 09:22.260]  There probably were people who treated you as if you had something to contribute and you had something interesting to give.
[09:22.580 --> 09:33.920]  You figured out that, you know, the hacker community is a diverse group and people are up to all of these different things, you know, pushing all kinds of arts and technologies to their limit and you wanted to be a part of it.
[09:35.640 --> 09:37.680]  Now, how do you make people feel welcome?
[09:38.340 --> 09:46.380]  They need to feel comfortable, they need to feel like there's something they can take from it, something they can gain, and they need to feel like there is something they can give.
[09:47.060 --> 09:52.940]  That last part is probably a lot less, or a lot more neglected than the something they can take.
[09:53.440 --> 10:01.140]  You think, oh, you know, I'm going to go to this, I'm going to learn skill A, B, and C, but learning skills isn't all there is.
[10:01.140 --> 10:07.620]  It's a lot easier to feel engaged if, in addition to being able to learn skills, you feel like you have something to give.
[10:07.860 --> 10:13.060]  Because otherwise, you know, you go in there and if you don't think you have something to give, you kind of feel like a leech.
[10:13.340 --> 10:16.320]  And feeling like a leech is extremely uncomfortable.
[10:17.860 --> 10:21.060]  Now let me talk a little bit about what you can do from within the organization.
[10:21.860 --> 10:32.020]  Three keys to a welcoming organization include teaching new people, learning from new people, and encouraging other people in the organization to engage new people.
[10:33.440 --> 10:36.180]  First I'll talk a little bit about teaching new people.
[10:36.420 --> 10:41.040]  I've already skirted on this a little bit in general principles for making people feel welcome.
[10:41.340 --> 10:48.120]  But, you know, everybody has some kind of reason that they get involved in the hacker community and start exploring it.
[10:48.220 --> 10:51.700]  And a lot of times it is because they want to learn a particular skill.
[10:52.020 --> 10:54.480]  You know, maybe they want to learn something about computer security.
[10:54.600 --> 10:56.140]  Maybe they want to learn something about art.
[10:56.140 --> 11:01.600]  Maybe they heard some kind of cool project that somebody at your hacker space or somebody in your group has been doing.
[11:02.200 --> 11:06.200]  And they want to learn some of the principles or technologies behind that.
[11:06.400 --> 11:10.500]  So, figure out what they want to learn and cultivate that.
[11:11.860 --> 11:15.860]  This can be done on a formal basis and this can also be done on an informal basis.
[11:16.780 --> 11:20.380]  Formally, you can teach classes on a broad range of topics.
[11:20.700 --> 11:23.520]  And teach classes aimed at a broad range of skill levels.
[11:23.520 --> 11:29.220]  I mean, that's generally good practice whether you're dealing with people who are new to the community or not.
[11:29.520 --> 11:36.320]  Because, you know, even if you've been around for 10, 15, 20 years, there are skills that you've built and have become very expert at.
[11:36.640 --> 11:39.000]  And there are always new skills to learn.
[11:39.160 --> 11:43.580]  There are always things you don't know and sometimes want to because you're doing a new project.
[11:46.060 --> 11:55.600]  And the classes are a good way to, you know, get people to have, you know, kind of an idea of what sorts of skills people in your organization have.
[11:55.780 --> 12:00.740]  You know, they don't have to be these formal, ongoing, I'm going to teach a class every Thursday at 5.
[12:01.280 --> 12:11.840]  You know, the classes can be, you know, as informal as, you know, giving talks, giving presentations, you know, at a 2600 meeting or something about something that you're interested in or a project that you're doing.
[12:11.840 --> 12:19.140]  But having that platform to be able to teach other people the skills that you have is important.
[12:19.300 --> 12:26.040]  And it helps make people feel like they are learning what they want to learn when they're getting involved with your organization.
[12:27.120 --> 12:33.220]  And then on an informal basis, it's probably even more important than having something on, than having a formal basis.
[12:33.500 --> 12:47.340]  Because, sure, you know, it's, well, I won't say it's easy, but it's, you know, you can sit down and plan out a schedule and say, I'm going to have these classes at these times, but you're not having classes all of the times.
[12:47.740 --> 12:50.640]  And, you know, classes aren't the only avenue for learning.
[12:50.960 --> 12:53.580]  Just offer to explain your interests or your projects.
[12:53.700 --> 12:59.740]  If someone new walks into the hacker space or walks into your meeting and asks what you're working on, don't say, I'm busy, come back later.
[13:00.920 --> 13:02.980]  Just talk to them a little bit about it.
[13:03.140 --> 13:04.200]  Answer their questions.
[13:04.900 --> 13:09.480]  You know, you'll be able to tell them something that they're interested in, that they want to learn.
[13:10.240 --> 13:13.040]  And, you know, they may be able to give you some good pointers, too.
[13:13.480 --> 13:15.680]  And encourage collaboration on projects.
[13:16.200 --> 13:22.440]  Collaboration is really cool because it's, it gets that exchange of ideas going.
[13:22.980 --> 13:25.440]  And, you know, something really cool can come out of that.
[13:26.420 --> 13:31.800]  Not only in the, in these informal things, collaboration, explaining interests and projects.
[13:32.460 --> 13:44.260]  I mean, not only are you doing teaching, but you're also getting to know each other and just making it a more socially comfortable place for people to come in and feel a part of what you're doing.
[13:46.360 --> 13:48.140]  Secondly, learn from new people.
[13:48.840 --> 13:52.720]  Even though they're new to your organization, they come there with a background.
[13:53.020 --> 13:54.960]  They come there knowing certain things.
[13:55.240 --> 14:00.760]  And, you know, not only do they come curious about what they can gain from the hacker community.
[14:01.460 --> 14:06.260]  You see a new person coming in and it's like, what can I take from them?
[14:06.280 --> 14:13.900]  What kinds of skills are they bringing into our space or our organization that, you know, we may not have here yet?
[14:15.180 --> 14:18.120]  Again, this can be done formally and informally.
[14:18.480 --> 14:22.860]  You need to institute multiple formats for sharing knowledge and skills.
[14:24.100 --> 14:26.500]  Talks, lightning talks, classes.
[14:27.280 --> 14:38.340]  And, you know, something that's, something that's important as far as being able to give talks or give classes or share that information is keep that platform as open as possible.
[14:39.240 --> 14:43.400]  Of course you need to have some kind of, of course you need to have some kind of vetting.
[14:43.400 --> 14:55.780]  I mean, you need to know what the person's going to come in and talk about and, you know, offer them assistance if their proposal for a class is not quite as, you know, refined as you'd like it to be.
[14:56.120 --> 14:58.540]  But the offer's there.
[14:58.820 --> 15:04.780]  New people need to be able to come in and give talks, give workshops on skills that they bring.
[15:04.780 --> 15:07.480]  Because that will make them feel valuable.
[15:07.880 --> 15:13.440]  It will make them feel like the other people at the space or in the organization are gaining from their presence.
[15:13.440 --> 15:17.420]  Which is just as important as the new person gaining from your presence.
[15:18.420 --> 15:23.740]  And also on an informal basis, ask people about their skills, you know, when they come in.
[15:24.300 --> 15:28.400]  Pumping Station One does something at their meetings that I've always thought is really cool.
[15:28.820 --> 15:34.160]  If somebody, you know, at the beginning of the meeting, our president is like, okay, who's never been here before?
[15:34.540 --> 15:47.220]  And everyone who's never been to a meeting at the hackerspace before, they raise their hand and, you know, they introduce themselves, say who they are, say what they're interested in learning at the space.
[15:47.220 --> 15:52.440]  But they can also talk, they're also encouraged to talk about what they already do.
[15:52.720 --> 15:55.260]  What their hobbies are, what their interests are.
[15:55.560 --> 16:00.440]  So that way, when, you know, people hear that and say, oh, you know, this person's interested in radio.
[16:00.440 --> 16:01.900]  I have some questions about radio.
[16:02.120 --> 16:03.360]  Maybe I'll talk to them.
[16:03.760 --> 16:06.700]  And, you know, it provides good conversation starters.
[16:07.000 --> 16:25.480]  And it gets people on that footing of not only expecting to learn things at the hackerspace, but also, you know, expecting to contribute, expecting to, you know, people know what their background is in and can ask questions, can get help from the new people.
[16:26.300 --> 16:29.220]  And again, encourage collaboration on projects.
[16:29.480 --> 16:38.560]  Like I was saying before, you can not only, you know, teach a new person who's collaborating on a project with you things that you know, but you can learn from them.
[16:38.560 --> 16:52.140]  You know, if you decide to collaborate on a project together, you know, that means that the project probably takes some kinds of skills that, you know, one or the both of you have or want to learn, and, you know, puts you on a more equal footing.
[16:54.480 --> 16:57.200]  Finally, encourage others to engage new people.
[16:57.560 --> 17:02.720]  You know, culture of welcoming is not just a mask you put on any time a stranger walks through the door.
[17:02.720 --> 17:05.700]  It's something that you've got to keep in mind no matter what.
[17:05.880 --> 17:12.600]  Otherwise, it's going to come off as forced and just, you know, kind of a mask.
[17:13.080 --> 17:14.660]  You don't want it to come off that way.
[17:14.660 --> 17:21.740]  You want it to be something that's constantly on people's minds and ingrained in the culture of your organization.
[17:22.880 --> 17:27.800]  Just make sure to express the importance of teaching and learning to other members of your organization.
[17:28.840 --> 17:32.120]  And, you know, recognize signs of exclusionary behavior.
[17:32.460 --> 17:38.440]  You know, often exclusionary behavior isn't necessarily something that people are doing deliberately.
[17:38.640 --> 17:40.900]  I mean, I know I'm guilty of it.
[17:40.960 --> 17:52.700]  If I'm having a bad day, you know, I'll go to the space and be like, ugh, I don't want to deal with people, I don't want to deal with anything, I just want to sit down in the loft, put my head down, and read this book, or work on this project, or do something.
[17:52.700 --> 17:59.740]  But, you know, if somebody's been involved in the hackerspace for a while, or known me for a while, they know it's Nicky on a cranky day.
[18:00.420 --> 18:15.880]  But, if somebody comes in who's never been to the space before, or only been a couple of times, and doesn't know me that well, and doesn't know the difference between Nicky on a bad day and Nicky on a good day, they may take that as, you know, me being a jerk to them,
[18:15.960 --> 18:17.420]  me being gruff to them.
[18:17.420 --> 18:32.840]  And, you know, again, like, you don't want to be a jerk about calling people out when they're not being as friendly as they could be, but, you know, just say, say, hey, you know, it doesn't hurt to stop for a moment, answer their question, say a few words.
[18:33.080 --> 18:43.480]  You know, make them feel like it's an organization that they can be a part of, as opposed to something where you have to claw and push your way in.
[18:44.560 --> 18:49.300]  And, finally, highlight why it's in everybody's interest to have a welcoming culture.
[18:49.640 --> 18:56.300]  I mean, something... if it's the same few people coming around and doing stuff, it can get really stale.
[18:56.660 --> 19:00.520]  And, you know, that's not the goal of the hacker community at all.
[19:00.740 --> 19:09.460]  The goal of the hacker community is to push ideas to their limits and come up with new and interesting ways to use things, to do things.
[19:09.460 --> 19:26.740]  And, you know, a lot of times that impetus for pushing something new is, you know, it's going to come from someone else who comes in with a fresh perspective, who's not necessarily used to the way you or your friends or, you know, people in your group are used to looking at things.
[19:28.160 --> 19:33.460]  One thing I want to talk about here is, you know, the concept of paying your dues.
[19:33.460 --> 19:42.540]  And, yeah, there is a kind of respect for people, like a kind of level of respect for people who have been around the community for a long time.
[19:42.540 --> 19:44.540]  And that's definitely well-earned.
[19:44.600 --> 19:57.800]  But there's a difference between that... between the respect of being around for a long time and the basic respect of this person is valuable, this person has some ideas that are worth listening to.
[19:58.940 --> 20:15.660]  And, yeah, even though the person coming in hasn't been involved in your group for that long or, you know, may not have done, you know, a certain field, a certain skill as much as you have, that doesn't mean that they're not worth listening to in general.
[20:15.820 --> 20:17.680]  It means that they have something to learn.
[20:17.680 --> 20:21.120]  It means that they may come in with other skills that could be useful to you.
[20:21.120 --> 20:28.320]  And it means that... it doesn't mean that you don't have anything to gain from that person.
[20:29.800 --> 20:32.220]  What you can do from outside the organization.
[20:32.680 --> 20:36.040]  Most of this is focused on what you can do inside the organization.
[20:36.280 --> 20:51.120]  But there's a certain level of conveying your culture that you do when you're talking to people who are outside the organization or when you're going to some other kind of, you know, hacker, maker, artist, or whatever event.
[20:51.720 --> 20:53.880]  First of all, make an effort.
[20:54.140 --> 21:03.020]  Look to see what other similarly inclined groups, gatherings, events there are in your area, and go to them.
[21:03.620 --> 21:11.560]  Talk to people, bring up your organization and conversation, and get people interested in it.
[21:11.560 --> 21:13.520]  You know, discuss your projects.
[21:13.620 --> 21:15.920]  Discuss stuff that you're working on personally.
[21:17.920 --> 21:21.080]  But try not to make it sound like an ad.
[21:21.240 --> 21:24.340]  I mean, don't say, oh, you need to come here.
[21:24.480 --> 21:27.280]  Our group is so much more awesome than this other group.
[21:28.240 --> 21:36.340]  That's going to sound exclusionary, and it's going to sound dismissive to what they may already be involved in and what they may truly love.
[21:36.800 --> 21:39.320]  But, yeah, talk to them about their projects.
[21:39.320 --> 21:41.260]  Show an interest in what they're doing.
[21:41.680 --> 21:43.180]  Ask them about what they're doing.
[21:43.520 --> 21:49.600]  And, you know, find commonalities in what you do and what they do, or what they do and what maybe other people in the group do.
[21:50.200 --> 21:53.600]  And also, don't get caught up in semantics and terminology.
[21:54.400 --> 22:04.400]  I've heard... I am absolutely sick of the awkward conversations about, oh, you know, our hacker, our maker, blah, blah, blah, like, labels.
[22:05.640 --> 22:15.880]  And I don't feel like they're really necessary, especially, you know, they're necessary to get into and get tied up on, especially when you're just introducing someone to the organization.
[22:16.320 --> 22:26.760]  I mean, you know, if you're... if they're a little shy about, oh, no, they call themselves hackers, don't put the focus on, you know, the H word or any other specific word.
[22:26.940 --> 22:38.260]  Put the focus on common interests, on creativity, on, you know, what they can gain from being a part of your group, and what you can gain from having them as a part of your group.
[22:39.780 --> 22:41.740]  Finally, a little bit about public relations.
[22:42.740 --> 22:46.020]  Like, don't... don't shy away from the media.
[22:46.480 --> 22:52.340]  There are benefits to there being media exposure, especially in the case of a hacker space.
[22:53.280 --> 22:56.040]  It's a way to reach curious and talented people.
[22:56.320 --> 23:01.480]  You know, if they're reading the newspaper or, like, Googling around, they're more likely to find you.
[23:01.480 --> 23:07.080]  And it also helps dispel the idea that the hacker community is something covert.
[23:07.940 --> 23:09.460]  You know, they see a news article about you.
[23:09.540 --> 23:12.700]  It's like, wow, you know, they're not up...
[23:12.700 --> 23:17.560]  They're not up to the shady hackers, cyber criminal, whatever that I thought they were.
[23:17.780 --> 23:21.220]  They're open, they're talking to people, and they're putting themselves out there.
[23:21.620 --> 23:25.700]  It makes people a little more ready to embrace and contribute to your organization.
[23:26.220 --> 23:37.260]  And also, you know, maybe it will inform the future work of media outlets and dispel myths that reporters have about the hacker community being this scary, scary thing.
[23:37.780 --> 23:40.280]  You know, and finally, stand up for yourself.
[23:40.520 --> 23:42.240]  You can, you know, tell a reporter all you want.
[23:42.460 --> 23:45.520]  Some of them are good and listen, and you might pull a bad apple.
[23:45.860 --> 23:51.320]  If you pull a bad apple who gets stuff wrong, that's not a reason to stop putting yourself out there.
[23:51.320 --> 23:52.820]  But be respectful.
[23:53.360 --> 23:54.000]  Correct them.
[23:54.160 --> 23:55.160]  Send a letter to the editor.
[23:55.320 --> 23:56.480]  Post something in your blog.
[23:56.800 --> 24:01.100]  Just do something to, you know, dispel that, debate that.
[24:01.560 --> 24:07.960]  And, you know, keep your organizational image as something that is, you know, on the up and up.
[24:08.060 --> 24:12.980]  That is ready to, you know, embrace new people and not something to be afraid of.
[24:14.080 --> 24:18.660]  Finally, I'm going to get a little bit into the special responsibilities of organizational leaders.
[24:19.300 --> 24:23.360]  First off, transparency, transparency, transparency.
[24:23.940 --> 24:26.020]  I cannot stress this enough.
[24:26.500 --> 24:36.440]  I mean, there are always going to be issues, especially, you know, in any kind of formal organization, you know, a hacker space or any kind of group that puts on events.
[24:36.440 --> 24:46.360]  There's going to be, like, nuts and bolts, day-to-day crud that is legitimately best dealt with by leadership, by, you know, elected officers.
[24:46.760 --> 24:48.700]  But do it openly.
[24:48.960 --> 24:54.940]  It helps debunk the myth of hackers as secretive and also encourages involvement.
[24:55.300 --> 25:00.980]  You know, make your board of directors meetings or your membership meetings open to anyone who wants to look into them.
[25:01.760 --> 25:06.320]  You know, any email lists that decisions are being made on.
[25:07.240 --> 25:08.420]  Make them open.
[25:08.560 --> 25:09.920]  Make them readable by people.
[25:10.200 --> 25:20.140]  You know, yeah, if you have a board of directors list, like, you know, again, going back to an example of Pumping Station One, there is a board of directors email list and certain business does get done on that list.
[25:20.400 --> 25:26.440]  But even though it's only, you know, a small group of people that are allowed to post on it, anyone who wants to can lurk it.
[25:26.580 --> 25:29.920]  Anyone who wants to can read the discussions that are going on.
[25:29.920 --> 25:39.320]  And if they have an issue, they can, you know, email somebody on the board of directors list personally, or talk about it on the membership mailing list.
[25:39.400 --> 25:41.360]  Or on the public mailing list.
[25:41.500 --> 25:44.780]  Like, on something else that's open to a larger group of people.
[25:44.960 --> 25:59.860]  So there is a level of transparency for people to see what's being discussed, know about decisions before they're actually made, and put in their two cents about, you know, the, or about where the organization should be going.
[26:00.440 --> 26:10.700]  And, you know, that's important for new people to know from the beginning that they have access to the decision-making mechanisms of the organization.
[26:11.780 --> 26:14.240]  Also, be personally accessible.
[26:14.480 --> 26:31.960]  That goes back to this theme that's popped up a couple times of, you know, as important as it is to have formal things in place, it's even more important for people to have some kind of informal bond, some kind of personal bond with people who lead the organization.
[26:33.420 --> 26:36.400]  Just be, you know, come to the meetings.
[26:36.660 --> 26:38.000]  Be at the space frequently.
[26:39.100 --> 26:40.700]  Be, you know, answer your email.
[26:41.000 --> 26:41.660]  Be accessible.
[26:42.300 --> 26:43.980]  Have a membership liaison.
[26:45.500 --> 26:51.680]  It's nice to have a person who's, you know, a point person for, you know, answering new people's questions.
[26:52.700 --> 26:55.840]  But, you know, again, you can't take that to an extreme.
[26:56.000 --> 27:00.400]  The membership liaison is never going to be the only leader who interacts with new people.
[27:00.580 --> 27:08.920]  It's good to have a point person for questions, for, you know, giving tours of a hacker space, if that's the kind of organization you are.
[27:09.220 --> 27:18.380]  But you need to make sure that all of the leadership is accessible and all of the leadership is receptive to the questions and concerns of new people.
[27:19.300 --> 27:25.340]  Finally, make it clear that you value their opinions on the organization's direction or role.
[27:25.700 --> 27:33.320]  I am so... I'm sick of hearing, you know, people dismiss their own opinions, like, oh, I'm only new here.
[27:33.660 --> 27:35.200]  Oh, I'm only an artist.
[27:35.360 --> 27:36.600]  I don't do that tech stuff.
[27:36.820 --> 27:37.320]  Blah, blah, blah.
[27:38.240 --> 27:42.600]  As soon as you catch people saying that, you need to be like, no.
[27:43.100 --> 27:44.440]  Don't say you're only an artist.
[27:44.620 --> 27:46.020]  Don't say you're only a newbie.
[27:47.140 --> 27:47.920]  You're here.
[27:48.040 --> 27:49.480]  You're interested in our organization.
[27:49.740 --> 27:51.780]  And you have valuable things to contribute.
[27:52.340 --> 28:00.800]  And, you know, if they have a suggestion for how to run something and it's something that you've tried already and it very much hasn't worked, you know, feel free to bring that up.
[28:00.960 --> 28:08.640]  Feel free to have a dialogue and talk to them about, you know, why their idea may not quite be what to implement.
[28:09.520 --> 28:12.600]  But, even then, you've listened to it.
[28:12.660 --> 28:13.720]  You're open to it.
[28:13.860 --> 28:19.600]  And you can have a discussion about, you know, how to proceed from there.
[28:19.700 --> 28:22.060]  About how to, you know, possibly change things.
[28:22.220 --> 28:23.460]  Tweak around what you did before.
[28:23.580 --> 28:24.880]  Tweak around what they suggested.
[28:25.200 --> 28:34.240]  I mean, I'm definitely not trying to say, you know, every idea put forth by a new person is automatically better because it's put forth by a new person.
[28:34.400 --> 28:35.740]  I'm not trying to say that at all.
[28:35.860 --> 28:44.460]  But what I am trying to say is you need to give their opinions for the organization's direction or role some weight.
[28:44.680 --> 28:51.180]  You need to consider them logically, consider them thoroughly, and, you know, let them be part of the discussion.
[28:53.600 --> 29:00.440]  Now, one thing I'm going to talk a little bit about is not everybody is going to be a good fit.
[29:00.700 --> 29:05.480]  Not all of these new people are going to work out in your organization.
[29:06.120 --> 29:11.160]  Some of these people are going to work out because the hacker community is just not their thing.
[29:11.380 --> 29:17.300]  Maybe they're, you know, they thought they were going to find what they were looking for in your organization, and it turns out they don't.
[29:17.580 --> 29:18.460]  That's okay.
[29:18.920 --> 29:21.820]  The hacker community is not for everybody.
[29:22.200 --> 29:29.100]  Not everybody has that, you know, inquisitive spirit that the hacker community is built around.
[29:29.500 --> 29:34.380]  And, you know, not everybody actually wants to be part of a group when they're working on projects.
[29:34.620 --> 29:35.620]  And that's okay.
[29:36.120 --> 29:37.820]  You know, people will come in and come out.
[29:37.820 --> 29:42.320]  I mean, there's really nothing you can, you know, deal with on the whole, it's just not their thing.
[29:42.320 --> 29:45.220]  Because if it's not their thing, they, you know, they leave.
[29:45.360 --> 29:47.640]  And that's okay.
[29:48.740 --> 29:55.760]  When things get a little thorny is if these people are not a good fit because they're disruptive.
[29:56.200 --> 30:07.420]  You know, they're either verifiably disruptive as in, you know, they have, you know, they're breaking safety rules and becoming a threat to, you know, you and themselves, you and others.
[30:08.060 --> 30:13.720]  You know, for example, if you're a hacker space, this comes into play with, you know, the tools.
[30:15.080 --> 30:17.900]  Or maybe they're causing friction, but it might be subjective.
[30:18.120 --> 30:23.360]  Like, most of the people don't get along with them, but maybe not all of them.
[30:23.780 --> 30:28.620]  Or, you know, they're just a difficult person to deal with.
[30:28.620 --> 30:32.120]  Or they interrupt people all the time when they're working on projects.
[30:33.580 --> 30:35.740]  That's a little difficult to deal with.
[30:35.780 --> 30:38.080]  And I can't say I have all the answers on that.
[30:38.240 --> 30:43.900]  If it's something verifiably disruptive, then, you know, have a procedure in place.
[30:44.140 --> 30:51.540]  I mean, if you've got a fairly formal organization, you know, like a hacker space or something, have a grievance procedure in place.
[30:51.800 --> 30:55.400]  You know, give them a written notice of what they're doing that violates the rules.
[30:55.560 --> 30:59.180]  Give them a, you know, time period to fix their behavior.
[30:59.880 --> 31:03.340]  Keep everything on paper if it's verifiably disruptive.
[31:04.440 --> 31:13.200]  If they're causing friction, but it may be subjective, probably the best way to deal with that is, you know, just sit down one-on-one and talk to them.
[31:13.840 --> 31:16.780]  You know, say, hey, you know, you're...
[31:17.740 --> 31:24.480]  I'm perfectly happy to talk to you at some point, but, you know, could you please let me try to get my project done?
[31:24.680 --> 31:27.700]  We'll figure out a time to... figure out a time to talk later.
[31:28.160 --> 31:33.600]  Or, you know, tell them, yeah, people are getting a little annoyed by you doing this, that, and the other.
[31:33.600 --> 31:35.820]  Just be tactful about it.
[31:35.960 --> 31:37.000]  And it's hard.
[31:37.160 --> 31:38.740]  And it hurts to do that.
[31:38.980 --> 31:42.000]  But, you know, sometimes you have to for the sake...
[31:42.000 --> 31:43.880]  Because they may not even realize they're doing it.
[31:44.640 --> 31:51.840]  Sometimes you have to do that, you know, for the sake of making the organization a comfortable place for, you know, for everybody else.
[31:51.840 --> 31:54.580]  For old members and for other new people who may come in.
[31:56.240 --> 32:04.660]  And also, you know, if you have these bad experiences, don't impart these bad experiences on every new person who comes in.
[32:04.940 --> 32:07.180]  I mean, just give them the benefit of the doubt.
[32:07.360 --> 32:09.260]  If they turn out to be a great fit, excellent.
[32:09.460 --> 32:13.240]  If they don't turn out to be a good fit, you'll cross that bridge when you come to it.
[32:13.760 --> 32:16.340]  But, you know, assume that people are going...
[32:16.340 --> 32:26.840]  You know, assume that people honestly want to be there and are there to get involved in your organization and be awesome and be excellent and do cool stuff until it's proven otherwise.
[32:28.840 --> 32:33.940]  In conclusion, the discussion of how to build an organization, it has to go beyond recruiting.
[32:34.360 --> 32:44.500]  Yeah, you know, if you've got the same, like, five people coming to your meeting or the same, like, 20 people coming to your space, the first impetus is often, oh, you know, we need to get more people in here.
[32:44.500 --> 32:51.120]  But, you know, beyond that, you need to be thoughtful, be mindful about making people stay.
[32:51.620 --> 33:01.740]  And remaining focused on the concerns and outlooks of new people in mind will lead them to feel valuable and comfortable in the organization from the first time they became acquainted with you.
[33:02.580 --> 33:06.240]  You know, you're... you need to make a good first impression.
[33:06.240 --> 33:19.020]  And a good first impression involves, you know, being open, being welcoming, making them think that there's something they can give to the organization, as well as making people feel that there's something they can learn from the organization.
[33:21.120 --> 33:21.920]  Any questions?
[33:28.000 --> 33:29.360]  Yeah, questions, comments,
[33:38.440 --> 33:41.040]  grievances, catcalls.
[33:41.640 --> 33:46.760]  And I thought that was really funny coming from, you know, eccentric 65-year-old professor.
[33:48.880 --> 33:51.500]  I can't see if there's anyone lined up in the...
[33:51.500 --> 33:51.840]  Yeah.
[33:52.040 --> 33:52.460]  Okay.
[33:52.840 --> 33:56.220]  I'm sorry, I can't see a thing from here other than the lights in my face.
[33:56.860 --> 34:18.260]  Well, so I'd like to bring up something that I think you might have overlooked or taken for granted, and that's the importance of communicating shared expectations and that when you are bringing new people into your organization, that you have bylaws or set of rules defining what is acceptable and what isn't acceptable within your community and within your space.
[34:18.760 --> 34:21.620]  And I don't know if you want to, you know, speak any more on that.
[34:21.900 --> 34:24.280]  No, that's definitely a good point.
[34:24.440 --> 34:29.020]  I mean, that's probably something that I, you know, took for granted more than anything.
[34:29.500 --> 34:36.060]  But, I mean, I don't know how necessary that is if it's just, if your organization is, like, an informal meetup.
[34:36.440 --> 34:46.280]  But if it is a hacker space or it is, you know, a more formal organization that puts on events and does things, you know, you need to have a clearly laid out mission.
[34:46.280 --> 34:48.980]  You need to have clearly laid out rules.
[34:49.520 --> 34:52.080]  And, no, that's absolutely right.
[34:52.240 --> 34:58.640]  They need to be, you know, certain things are important enough to be, you know, in the bylaws or your corporate foundation document.
[34:58.920 --> 35:11.880]  Some may not, you know, be quite bylaws level, but they should still be written down, they should be static, and they should be in a place like a website that's accessible for anyone and everyone to read.
[35:12.040 --> 35:18.880]  Because, yes, it gives a, you know, an open shared expectations when people are coming in.
[35:18.880 --> 35:37.520]  And also, you know, going back to my points about dealing with people who are difficult or possibly detrimental, it does give you things that you can cite, being like, okay, what you're doing violates, you know, this or that or the other ground rule of the organization.
[35:39.760 --> 35:55.620]  Definitely, I would share with that that it should be on the webpage as far as a mission statement or what you're what the organization is about, but also, shared values, as far as like a value system and as far as like what is it that the organization values.
[35:55.880 --> 36:00.740]  Because that may not fit them and in another organization, their values do fit with them.
[36:00.740 --> 36:04.420]  So, what it is that you're about as far as with regards to that.
[36:05.140 --> 36:17.160]  One of the things I was going to ask is that dealing with conflict resolution when you have members who are a little bit more challenging than others and how to go ahead and step that up.
[36:18.000 --> 36:28.580]  The language that is used in how you step that up is really important because you want to keep that person, if possible, a contributing member of that community.
[36:28.580 --> 36:37.040]  And if not, then you want to go ahead and disengage in as a constructive way as possible.
[36:37.260 --> 36:41.740]  So, one of the questions I have for you is how do you go through that process?
[36:41.740 --> 36:51.400]  And what is the language that you found to be the most useful in conflict resolution and keeping that person a contributing member of the community?
[36:51.560 --> 36:57.420]  And if not, how to go about having them find other communities that may be more suitable for them?
[36:57.420 --> 37:01.420]  Well, if there's a difficult person...
[37:01.420 --> 37:03.680]  Sorry, I should probably get a sip of water.
[37:17.500 --> 37:18.680]  Sorry about that.
[37:19.300 --> 37:23.200]  I think what's very important when you're...
[37:23.200 --> 37:31.760]  What you need to do is give them, you know, very clearly, very specifically laid out reasons why there's a conflict.
[37:32.700 --> 37:51.740]  I don't remember offhand, like, you know, exactly the words that you use, but there's a written letter, you know, it's come to our attention that we have the following concerns with you, citing the, you know, the behavior as specifically as possible and connecting that to something in the,
[37:51.920 --> 37:54.320]  you know, the rules or the values written down.
[37:54.320 --> 37:58.320]  That's important because, you know, it's not going to come off as arbitrary.
[37:59.340 --> 38:04.680]  You know, you want as much as possible of them to get a feeling of, okay, this is specific.
[38:04.680 --> 38:10.340]  They can cite the reasons why as opposed to, they're ganging up on me because they don't like me.
[38:10.340 --> 38:18.260]  That's the thing that you want to avoid at all costs is coming off, coming off as, oh, they're ganging up on me because they don't like me.
[38:18.700 --> 38:25.960]  And as far as disengaging, I mean, I'm honestly, I'm honestly not sure.
[38:26.220 --> 38:38.040]  I mean, it's never, it's never gotten to that point where we've had to forcibly disengage someone from, you know, formally kick them out of the space.
[38:38.040 --> 38:53.820]  When we've told them that they've been breaking certain rules, you know, sometimes they'll, sometimes I'll clean up their act, but, you know, sometimes they'll feel uncomfortable, they'll feel extremely uncomfortable that we called them out on their behavior,
[38:53.820 --> 38:56.400]  and they'll leave on their own.
[38:56.400 --> 39:04.080]  And I mean, that sounds bad, but, you know, that's what happened.
[39:04.440 --> 39:18.320]  And, you know, if they're uncomfortable with being called out on doing things that violate the terms of the space, then, you know, maybe it's probably better in the long run that they didn't end up staying in the group.
[39:18.320 --> 39:29.060]  I mean, as far as finding other things that may be a better fit, I don't know if that's necessarily within the scope of the organization's leadership.
[39:29.320 --> 39:34.720]  I mean, we're not necessarily, like, you know, yellow pages for other similar organizations.
[39:34.780 --> 39:41.540]  If someone asked me, you know, one-on-one, hey, are there any other organizations that do this, that, or the other, I'd be perfectly happy to tell them.
[39:42.700 --> 39:48.880]  But I don't know if that's necessarily something we would deal with as an organization, like go up to someone and be like, I don't know if you're quite a good fit here.
[39:49.000 --> 39:51.560]  Maybe you'd be a good fit at Group X.
[39:56.380 --> 39:58.960]  Sorry, I can't see if anyone else has signed up for questions.
[39:59.100 --> 39:59.740]  I can't see anything.
[40:00.000 --> 40:00.720]  I'm coming over.
[40:00.960 --> 40:01.200]  Okay.
[40:04.020 --> 40:24.820]  Hey, so one thing that I guess I see constantly but is rarely spoken of is the huge gender imbalance in the vast majority of hacker anything.
[40:25.660 --> 40:32.460]  Do you have any ideas, concerns, etc., regarding that?
[40:34.040 --> 40:36.600]  No, it's definitely a concern.
[40:36.880 --> 40:44.400]  I mean, I've been in the minority in, well, pretty much any hacker event that I've ever gone to.
[40:44.800 --> 40:52.620]  And, you know, my feelings on that would be, you know, people do need to be conscious of that.
[40:52.620 --> 41:05.640]  People need to, you know, make it a culture of not, you know, incorporating, you know, sexist talk, sexist actions into the, you know, into their behavior at the space.
[41:05.640 --> 41:22.480]  They need to come in and, you know, assume that someone coming in regardless of gender is, you know, has something to contribute, has, you know, good ideas for the space and, you know, not see a woman come in and it's like, you know, oh, she's probably just a scene whore looking for a geek guy.
[41:24.260 --> 41:45.720]  You know, people just need to be conscious, you know, and gender blind, honestly, in the way they look at and assess new people coming in and, you know, stop and think, okay, is how I'm behaving going to make, you know, men, women, anybody feel welcome and open at the space?
[41:50.760 --> 41:53.680]  You know, sometimes I feel more welcome when somebody curses.
[41:53.960 --> 41:58.380]  I mean, it's like, I feel more relaxed at home than relax and let down the barriers, you know?
[41:58.500 --> 42:00.180]  Like, shit, man, how you doing?
[42:00.240 --> 42:00.840]  What's going on?
[42:00.840 --> 42:06.720]  Oh, yeah, no, I'm definitely not saying, well, there's a difference between sexist language and crass language.
[42:06.980 --> 42:08.480]  I don't have a problem with crass language.
[42:08.640 --> 42:09.980]  I curse like a sailor!
[42:10.780 --> 42:20.240]  You know, not when I'm, you know, giving a talk at a con or anything, but, you know, you talk to me in casual conversation, you know, you know, shit and f*ck are flying out of my mouth a mile a minute.
[42:20.840 --> 42:27.100]  But there's, you know, a difference between that and, you know, oh, hey, hey, hey, look at the ta-tas on her!
[42:27.720 --> 42:35.100]  You know, one is... Would that have been last night, by the way?
[42:40.060 --> 42:46.280]  But, yeah, I'm definitely not saying that, you know, casual or even crass language is a bad thing.
[42:46.400 --> 42:49.360]  Because, you know, I feel more comfortable in that situation, too.
[42:49.620 --> 42:51.980]  Although, you know, I know that some don't.
[42:51.980 --> 43:05.160]  But, you know, being very careful about, you know, gender-loaded or, you know, sexually explicit language is probably a good thing.
[43:08.090 --> 43:09.330]  Any other questions?
[43:17.600 --> 43:19.520]  This is all well and good.
[43:19.520 --> 43:27.620]  And I understand where you're coming from in regards to a hackerspace environment and really would support that.
[43:27.840 --> 43:47.640]  But being this a 2600 conference and having 2600 meetings, and for myself having run probably 2600 meetings at four or five different cities, there's still that wall we have to put up because we don't know who's showing up.
[43:48.440 --> 43:59.160]  And having had to deal with certain Leos showing up that just graduated from the academy trying to make a name for themselves right off the bat by busting some evil hack-or.
[44:03.420 --> 44:04.940]  That was a direct quote.
[44:06.920 --> 44:15.000]  It kind of also depends on the environment that you're in and what you're getting exposed to, what's going on.
[44:15.520 --> 44:16.280]  Well, yeah.
[44:16.580 --> 44:22.120]  I mean, there's definitely, you know, be it a 2600 meeting or a hackerspace.
[44:22.280 --> 44:22.440]  Whoa.
[44:24.060 --> 44:31.760]  A 2600 meeting or a hackerspace or anything else, I'm not saying that you don't have to have your...
[44:31.760 --> 44:33.680]  I'm not saying that you don't have to have your guard up.
[44:33.860 --> 44:40.920]  I mean, yeah, there could be, you know, unsavory fed-like characters walking into a 2600 meeting or a hackerspace.
[44:41.080 --> 44:47.460]  There could be unsavory non-fed-like characters walking into your meeting or a hackerspace.
[44:47.480 --> 44:53.880]  I mean, we had a guy show up to, you know, one or two of our formation meetings for Pumping Station One.
[44:53.880 --> 45:01.420]  And, you know, he came in and was just off the bat, like pushy about, oh, you know, you need to run things this way.
[45:01.520 --> 45:05.620]  You need to be a politically charged organization and it's your duty to do so and blah, blah, blah.
[45:05.620 --> 45:15.920]  And, you know, we disagreed with him and told him so in no uncertain terms, but did it in a respectful manner.
[45:16.180 --> 45:26.440]  I mean, there's a difference between being welcoming and, you know, thinking that, you know, everybody's going to fit in or thinking that nobody is a threat.
[45:27.280 --> 45:40.460]  But what's important, I think, be it a 2600 meeting or a hackerspace or anything else, is to, you know, find out what you can about them, but, you know, give them the benefit of the doubt.
[45:40.660 --> 45:52.740]  If you find out pretty quickly that, yeah, you know, he's a fed and you don't really want to, you know, talk to him and he's up to no good and going to be disruptive, yeah, proceed from there.
[45:52.740 --> 46:00.380]  But don't assume that everybody walking in is going to be, you know, a fed or is going to be a threat to your organization.
[46:00.820 --> 46:05.960]  You know, give them a fair shake, find out what their deal is first, care enough to do that.
[46:09.040 --> 46:15.700]  I just wanted to add in addition to that, I'm involved in a hack space in my community, but I'm also involved in some more activist political type stuff.
[46:15.800 --> 46:33.460]  And one of the things on the political side of things that we don't see so much in the hackerspace side of things is this concept of security culture, where there's very, we're sort of have developed sort of pretty clear guidelines on how to deal with those sorts of situations where you do things like be very clear that you're not incriminate or getting people involved in things that they don't
[46:33.460 --> 46:35.680]  necessarily want to be involved in by sharing too much information in the first place.
[46:35.760 --> 46:38.340]  So you set up those barriers sort of in advance at a cultural level.
[46:38.900 --> 46:52.980]  So if, like, some people in your group are doing things that are, you know, gray hat, black hat type stuff, or whatever the context is, you know, you make sure you keep that away and just sort of as a cultural thing, don't expose those things.
[46:53.000 --> 47:01.440]  And then when people are coming in and want to get involved in that, there's sort of processes that you can see happening in more, or at least that I've seen happening in more activist areas.
[47:01.440 --> 47:05.220]  And this is probably something where 2600 groups can learn from, because there's obviously a lot of similarities.
[47:05.540 --> 47:10.280]  But just that concept of building in security culture can get around a lot of those problems as well, I think.
[47:10.580 --> 47:18.360]  Just, you know, being aware that other cultures than the hacker cultures that we're involved in have dealt with these problems, and we can learn from them as well.
[47:18.860 --> 47:20.980]  The problem is you're talking about sort of a cell organization.
[47:21.320 --> 47:23.660]  No, it's an interesting point.
[47:23.740 --> 47:30.360]  I mean, I'm talking about things as simple as an info shop, like a bookstore, where it's a radical bookstore, and, you know, people there are involved in other projects.
[47:30.360 --> 47:35.400]  And, you know, you want people to come in and volunteer because they like, you know, being involved in a community bookstore and stuff like that.
[47:35.560 --> 47:39.240]  You don't want them to necessarily get involved in other things, things like that.
[47:39.380 --> 47:40.120]  So, yeah.
[47:43.960 --> 47:51.220]  One of the things that I found interesting in talking about hackerspaces, where I live best is in the virtual hackerspace.
[47:52.080 --> 47:53.500]  So, for me, it's IRC channels.
[47:53.740 --> 47:54.520]  That's where I live.
[47:55.000 --> 47:57.280]  And, you know, I've been to hackerspaces and stuff.
[47:57.340 --> 47:58.060]  I find it interesting.
[47:58.060 --> 48:02.040]  You know, for myself, I work best in my own tunnel in my head.
[48:02.400 --> 48:08.120]  So, and where I bounce my ball off that virtual wall is in IRC channels.
[48:08.260 --> 48:08.880]  And I have peers.
[48:09.040 --> 48:12.800]  And everyone in this room, many of us are leaders in our respective communities technically.
[48:13.060 --> 48:14.840]  I mean, very few of us here are followers.
[48:15.060 --> 48:23.000]  So, when I see noobs, like to go back to the topic of your talk, when I see noobs walk into IRC channels, Well, you know what I see my peers doing?
[48:23.920 --> 48:25.320]  I try to help them.
[48:25.320 --> 48:29.060]  But I am... I am a... I'm in the minority.
[48:29.560 --> 48:33.280]  What I find that a lot of people are doing is RTFM.
[48:33.680 --> 48:35.020]  A lot of people are cliquish.
[48:35.440 --> 48:40.140]  They try to socially engineer themselves into the group just by trying to make small talk.
[48:40.260 --> 48:41.560]  They fail miserably, by the way.
[48:43.340 --> 48:48.120]  Also, if they're unfortunate enough to be in a bad domain, I can name a couple.
[48:48.120 --> 48:51.060]  They just get automatically banned even if they're not even, you know...
[48:51.060 --> 48:52.940]  I don't know who you are, but you're in a bad domain.
[48:53.180 --> 48:53.740]  Shit on you.
[48:54.020 --> 48:54.860]  You know, bad luck for you.
[48:55.060 --> 48:56.660]  Anyway, the point is I'm just trying to get across.
[48:56.720 --> 49:01.260]  You're talking about how not to label people as noobs and to keep them involved in the community.
[49:02.000 --> 49:02.760]  Very difficult.
[49:02.980 --> 49:06.860]  Because very few people will go to the hackerspace first.
[49:07.120 --> 49:10.640]  If they're interested in the technology, they'll go to the IRC channel first.
[49:10.820 --> 49:12.620]  And that's where they'll get turned off.
[49:12.840 --> 49:20.700]  Because when they walk into the IRC channel and they get talked down to and RTFM'd and they get, you know, completely isolated.
[49:21.180 --> 49:27.400]  And they find that they can't even approach that entrance ramp onto, you know, a person to speak to about anything.
[49:27.800 --> 49:33.300]  Or they'll just get, maybe a couple of friendly people, throw them a couple of links, you know, and say, just look here and look there.
[49:33.380 --> 49:34.620]  They just can't get themselves in.
[49:34.680 --> 49:37.960]  And then that rotating, revolving door of people just walking in and walking out.
[49:37.960 --> 49:43.440]  But I find that that virtual hackerspace in the IRC channel is where most of us live.
[49:43.460 --> 49:44.840]  I'll call it the silent majority.
[49:45.740 --> 49:49.100]  And that is where, also, I think it's the most unfriendly place.
[49:49.240 --> 49:52.220]  I have, of course, I'm in the industry a long time.
[49:52.300 --> 49:54.280]  But I've cut my teeth so I have my friends.
[49:54.280 --> 49:56.240]  I'm in my little crew online and that's fine.
[49:56.280 --> 49:56.920]  Makes me happy.
[49:57.040 --> 49:58.840]  But I feel really bad for everyone else.
[49:58.840 --> 50:01.440]  And I was hoping you would address that.
[50:01.480 --> 50:02.060]  I know you didn't.
[50:02.160 --> 50:17.900]  But that's the hackerspace I think is much more, I'll say important, that's my opinion, than the real hackerspace because I think that it's the people who already succeeded in the virtual hackerspace that are trying to take it to the next level and end up in the real hackerspace.
[50:17.900 --> 50:36.340]  I think the real place for us to be more inclusive as leaders, respectively, in our communities, and when I say communities, I mean geographic communities, to help those who are trying or may be interested and may not want to get scared away, is actually to try to be a little bit more inclusive and perhaps less clickish and a little more mature.
[50:37.220 --> 50:41.840]  And I find that severely lacking on Freenode and on 2600.
[50:42.180 --> 50:46.020]  And I've done it a couple of times myself, but that's just my opinion.
[50:46.240 --> 50:47.940]  And I think everyone should just take it for what it's worth.
[50:48.040 --> 50:49.180]  And I'm sorry if I offended anybody.
[50:49.540 --> 50:52.220]  Oh, you make a really good point there, actually.
[50:52.220 --> 50:57.420]  I mean, I was focusing on, you know, real-life meat space, if you will, in the talk.
[50:57.600 --> 51:00.900]  But, you know, I spend a ton of time on IRC as well.
[51:01.060 --> 51:06.600]  You know, on Freenode, on 2600Net, I'm on more IRC rooms than I can count.
[51:07.160 --> 51:09.540]  And, no, there is a lot of that.
[51:09.680 --> 51:13.120]  Like, they see a new person walking into the room and it's like, who the hell is this?
[51:13.140 --> 51:14.260]  I've never seen them before.
[51:14.260 --> 51:26.680]  And, no, you are absolutely right that people need to be more welcoming to new people on IRC or forums on the Internet.
[51:26.680 --> 51:30.100]  I mean, it's really easy to be a total asshat online.
[51:30.560 --> 51:33.700]  Because, you know, you're not hanging out there.
[51:33.880 --> 51:37.400]  They can't, you know, reach through the computer and punch you if they get pissed off at you.
[51:37.400 --> 51:38.860]  So, it's really easy.
[51:39.200 --> 51:50.960]  But, no, you're probably going to turn off a lot of people who are, you know, new and interested in trying to delve in by, you know, rebuffing them on IRC.
[51:51.460 --> 51:52.720]  You're absolutely right.
[51:53.040 --> 52:06.100]  One thing, I would just encourage anyone who's listening just simply to be a little bit more friendly, because I personally feel really bad for the guys who are just trying to learn something, trying to ask a couple of questions, and think that they're going to get that benevolent tech guy who's going to answer the question,
[52:06.300 --> 52:11.220]  and instead they get an FU or a ban, or they just simply just get a RTFM type of comment.
[52:11.280 --> 52:13.320]  I've just seen it all too often, and it bothers me.
[52:13.460 --> 52:25.840]  And so, in a talk of this context, I just wanted to, you know, not only get your thoughts on it, but just take an opportunity to mention that, because I thought all of us as leaders in our own respective channels should probably just give that a little extra thought,
[52:25.900 --> 52:29.220]  maybe speak to our own friends about it and just tell them to back off, you know.
[52:30.660 --> 52:33.800]  A quick little comment about what he just said, and then another comment.
[52:35.140 --> 52:42.780]  Remember that not with the RTFM culture drives me nuts, because everybody has different styles of learning, and not everyone learns best by reading.
[52:43.460 --> 52:59.580]  So, like, personally, for me, I can learn by reading, but it's a lot more rewarding to me to learn by asking questions and doing and working with, like, a mentor or something, so that just the RTFM culture is really, really negative to those people who don't learn best by reading,
[52:59.600 --> 53:01.360]  and it's really rough on those people.
[53:01.640 --> 53:14.240]  But what I was going to say is, kind of adding to the thing about the sexism earlier, is that to also be aware of people's orientations, because, you know, if I go to a place and people are like, oh, that's so gay, or, you know, you're so much as a faggot,
[53:14.340 --> 53:16.940]  blah, blah, blah, blah, I'm going to be totally turned off and not come back.
[53:17.360 --> 53:22.720]  Because it's like, you know, there are gay hackers, and it's very important to, you know, not use that word as a put down.
[53:23.320 --> 53:24.920]  Yeah, absolutely agreed.
[53:25.440 --> 53:38.400]  You know, orientation, that's another thing, and that's another kind of language that I think should be avoided to make people feel welcome, because, one, it's just, you know, not good practice to call bad things, you know, gay or whatever.
[53:38.620 --> 53:41.620]  But it is going to make people feel unwelcome.
[53:43.480 --> 53:46.080]  I actually wanted to respond to the RTFM stuff.
[53:47.700 --> 53:55.720]  I wanted to remind all the new people that you're much less likely to get an RTFM if you demonstrate that you actually have done some research prior to asking your question.
[53:56.040 --> 54:07.220]  You may not be able to find the answer, but if you can say, I tried here, and I tried there, and I put some level of thought into it, then you're going to ask a more intelligent question, and you'll probably get a better answer.
[54:07.920 --> 54:18.240]  And for those that are tempted to tell people RTFM, give them the right things to go research, instead of just telling them, go research it.
[54:18.240 --> 54:22.440]  And I think that those who can learn by research will learn better.
[54:23.540 --> 54:25.740]  Yeah, no, that's true.
[54:25.980 --> 54:30.000]  I mean, you need to, like, telling them RTFM isn't going to do anything.
[54:31.380 --> 54:33.920]  Tell them, yeah, tell them where the manual is.
[54:34.040 --> 54:36.000]  Maybe give them, like, a link to something to read.
[54:36.220 --> 54:43.580]  And, you know, it's definitely good to do research first and ask a more intelligent question.
[54:43.580 --> 54:52.360]  But, you know, even if someone, like, comes in and asks a fairly, you know, vague question, like, you know, respond, maybe respond with another question in turn.
[54:52.420 --> 54:53.500]  You know, like, what have you done?
[54:53.500 --> 54:57.680]  Or, like, what more specifically do you want to know about?
[54:57.780 --> 54:59.360]  Like, narrow the topic.
[54:59.840 --> 55:08.780]  What level do you believe you should hold new people accountable for making that first effort beyond just simply asking the question, though?
[55:10.360 --> 55:22.120]  No, I think that it's, I think it's definitely a new person's responsibility to, you know, they come in and they say they're interested in, you know, learning, in learning X, Y, and Z.
[55:22.380 --> 55:39.020]  I mean, if they're, you know, if they're interested in learning it, I'm, you know, kind of, I'm kind of expecting that they've, you know, at least done, you know, tried to do a little bit of, you know, reading or talking to people or starting to suss out the topic.
[55:39.700 --> 55:55.200]  But, you know, honestly, I don't hold them to that high of a standard, especially when they're just starting out, just because, you know, maybe they are in that process of figuring out if they're interested in it and just sussing out the topic.
[55:55.940 --> 56:01.060]  And, you know, maybe they do, if they learn best by reading, they can easily do that on their own.
[56:01.100 --> 56:13.800]  If they learn best by talking to people, maybe they're trying to find that person or those people to talk to, you know, to mentor them or to give them, you know, even just a bird's eye view of this thing that they realize they might be interested in.
[56:15.040 --> 56:25.040]  So, you know, I find it really hard to hold it against someone that they, you know, don't know anything yet about a certain topic.
[56:25.080 --> 56:27.580]  Because I know there's a whole lot that I don't know anything about yet either.
[56:31.740 --> 56:33.520]  More of a comment than a question.
[56:34.240 --> 56:42.940]  Although I am extremely respectful of every culture and orientation and everything out there, I have great respect for everything about it.
[56:42.940 --> 56:46.300]  I got to say a couple of things because I got to be honest here.
[56:46.660 --> 56:49.680]  And I'm going to start really quickly by just asking a question.
[56:49.880 --> 56:51.220]  How was copper wire invented?
[56:51.540 --> 56:52.980]  Two jews found the same penny.
[56:54.240 --> 56:55.000]  I'm jewish.
[56:55.140 --> 56:56.300]  I can tell that joke.
[56:56.680 --> 56:58.600]  Okay, look, let me be very blunt.
[56:58.820 --> 56:59.840]  Let me be very honest.
[57:00.920 --> 57:02.320]  You're in a hacker world.
[57:02.780 --> 57:05.180]  Hacker world is semi-survival of the fittest.
[57:05.440 --> 57:08.600]  If you can't take a joke, go find another world.
[57:09.960 --> 57:11.000]  There are...
[57:12.820 --> 57:13.340]  Sorry.
[57:14.260 --> 57:17.020]  There are abuse and nasty and that's wrong.
[57:17.180 --> 57:18.120]  And I agree with you 100%.
[57:18.120 --> 57:19.980]  But a joke is a joke.
[57:20.200 --> 57:20.460]  Deal.
[57:20.660 --> 57:22.480]  But someone might not know that you're jewish.
[57:23.500 --> 57:24.380]  I'll laugh too.
[57:24.620 --> 57:25.020]  It's okay.
[57:25.520 --> 57:26.060]  Won't kill me.
[57:32.590 --> 57:34.910]  I'm not saying dis-welcoming things.
[57:35.210 --> 57:37.170]  I'm saying respect and enjoy.
[57:37.490 --> 57:41.190]  But I'm also saying understand that sometimes people will make a joke and they won't know you're jewish.
[57:41.190 --> 57:42.250]  They won't know you're gay.
[57:42.350 --> 57:43.050]  They won't know whatever.
[57:43.570 --> 57:43.850]  Okay.
[57:44.270 --> 57:47.910]  So if you feel upset, then take them aside and say, Hey, look, you know, dude, that upset...
[57:47.910 --> 57:48.490]  I apologize.
[57:48.670 --> 57:49.230]  Don't get me wrong.
[57:49.590 --> 57:51.310]  And I say, you know, dude, that upset me.
[57:51.410 --> 57:53.890]  I'm, you know, I understand you didn't mean to upset me.
[57:53.950 --> 57:55.630]  And if you did, we need to talk in a different...
[57:56.210 --> 57:57.030]  Potentially behind the building.
[57:57.490 --> 57:58.350]  But it upset me.
[57:58.410 --> 57:59.310]  And that's cool and that's fine.
[58:00.090 --> 58:00.370]  Okay?
[58:00.590 --> 58:01.330]  But I mean...
[58:02.770 --> 58:03.910]  There's an extent of...
[58:03.910 --> 58:07.130]  There's a level to which you don't need to be politically correct.
[58:07.130 --> 58:08.690]  And then there's an extent to which you do need to be.
[58:09.150 --> 58:09.730]  That's all I'm saying.
[58:30.530 --> 58:35.870]  Okay, so looking forward to next year, were you planning on giving this talk at HOPE again?
[58:37.410 --> 58:53.410]  And if so, you know, I'd like to see this turned into a panel discussion to get more ideas from more communities because what works for you doesn't work for him, which doesn't work for him, which doesn't, you know...
[58:53.410 --> 58:57.030]  Yeah, I honestly haven't thought, you know, that far ahead.
[58:57.050 --> 58:58.430]  But you're right.
[58:58.550 --> 59:02.810]  A panel discussion on this would be very valuable in my opinion.
[59:05.830 --> 59:08.170]  And it sounds like my time is up.
[59:08.310 --> 59:09.050]  So thank you.
[59:09.330 --> 59:09.950]  Thank you all.