Duke Ellington used to say every man prays in his own language and there is no language God
does not understand. For Ellington, of course, the language was jazz. The great band leader was
close to Pastor Gensel and composed this tome poem to honor the man he called
the shepherd who watches over the night block. I'm Andy Lancet in New York.
And that's some of the news for Monday, June 12, 1989. The news was engineered by Jennifer
Burnett. It was produced with Julie Cohn, Steve Enscape, Joshua Isay, Marika Martin, and Ken
Wolf. I'm Amy Goodman in New York with Tara Seiler in Washington for WBAI listener-supported
news.
And you heard that rebroadcast of the evening news here on listener-supported WBAI in New
York at 99.5 FM. My name's Emanuel Goldstein. I'll be filling in for Margot Adler tonight
as we do Unstuck in Time and listen to the sounds of civilization.
The bitter road to the Democratic Convention via New Hampshire, Oregon, California, had
its climax not just at the amphitheater, but in Lincoln and Grant Parks and in the streets
of Chicago. Lyndon Johnson never left the ranch. Robert Kennedy was dead. Eugene McCarthy was
now just really going through the motions. George McGovern was a stand-in for some of
the anti-war vote. Hubert Humphrey was the survivor.
And so, ladies and gentlemen, I am proud to present to this convention the name of Hubert
Horatio Humphrey as nominee for the President of the United States. Thank you very much.
Thank you very much.
Some said that Hubert Humphrey lost the election on Wednesday night in Chicago when he won the
nomination. Two arenas of the absurd were simultaneously playing out their furious drive. At the amphitheater,
the politicians, Aliotta, Stokes, Albert, and the endless roll-off. Arizona 19.
Downtown on Michigan and Balboa Avenue is the protestors. Dellinger, Hayden, Davis, Reuben,
Hoffman. The songs, the songs, and the chants. The whole world is watching. Peace now. Dump the
Hump. Hit the bayonets high with the order. About face. Stop the war. And now they've got
their demonstrators on the way.
Police, the National Guard, the tear gas, the counter drama between the rostrum and the paddy
wagon. Guys move ahead. Pushing, pushing ahead. The demonstrators move back. Among the demonstrators,
some people who are not demonstrators. Individuals caught in the middle of it. The yippies, the hippies,
the sirens, the police clubs, and mace. The flying wedges. The transistor radios piped the
archaic convention oratory into the frenzied streets. Portable television sets fed the scene
in the streets back to the disbelieving home.
Three policemen approached them, hollering and waving their sticks. The crowd wavered and
fell apart. They were retreating. And this is what I was filming when, from behind me somewhere,
came a herd of policemen running. And I had my camera up. And one policeman gave me a show. And
I don't even think he said anything. He gave me a show. And I said, CBS News. And he said,
whack. That's just to him.
Senator Abraham Rivercroft, nominating George McGovern, laced the two images together in a speech
made more terrifying by the film and taped that illustrated.
Mr. Chairman, I have a speech here. As I look at the confusion in this hall, and watch on television
the turmoil and violence that is competing with this great convention for the attention of the American people.
There is something else in my heart tonight, and not the speech that I am prepared to give.
The youth of America rallied to the standards of men like George McGovern, like they did to the standards
of John F. Kennedy and Robert Kennedy. And with George McGovern as President of the United States,
we wouldn't have to have Gestapo tactics in the streets of Chicago. With George McGovern,
we wouldn't have a National Guard.
You know that. You know that.
How hard it is to accept the truth when we know the problems facing our nation.
Mob riot or police riot. Conspiracy or brutality. The courts would spend years deciding that.
Mayor Daley began his defense of the Chicago police that night.
The confrontation was not created by the police. The confrontation was created by the people who charged the police.
Gentlemen, get the thing straight once and for all. The policeman isn't there to create disorder.
The policeman is there to preserve disorder.
The wounded included those being nursed in improvised infirmaries on upper floors of the Conrad Hilton Hotel.
And the battered Vice President who told his wife he felt as if he'd been in a shipwreck.
Hubert Horatio Humphrey told the delegates.
I say to this great convention tonight, and to this great nation of ours, I am ready to lead our country.
Join the people with the board.
Father, Father , I am here in the soon. I can't come home , because I brought up too soon.
Too soon
I got my sentence
I got my command
They said they'd make me major
If I'm out of any man
I could be a cardinal
Into cardboard punishment
Or the general manager
Of a large establishment
They packed some divides on the back
And put some to the ride
But I never thought they'd put me in the
Good squad
They're going to look you over
And they're giving you the eye
Good squad
They're going to watch you to come out
You better say goodbye
Some grow up just like the dads
And some grow up to tomorrow
Some go drinking with the lads
Some won't grow up at all
You must find the proper place
For everything you see
But you'll never get to make a laugh
Straight out of me
I could try to chain a mail
For being a person for a link
But looking for a lucky girl
To put me in the bank
They packed some good guys on the back
And put some to the ride
But I never thought they'd put me in the
Good squad
They're going to look you over
And they're giving you the eye
Good squad
They want you to come out
You better say goodbye
Father, father, I'm doing so well
I'm making such progress now that you can hardly tell
Sending a little dedication
With one eye on the block
And I caught you under medication
You could be in far as shock
Thinking of the alibis
But everyone's forgotten
Just another purpose
But gone to the right
They packed some good vibes on the back
And put some to the ride
But I never thought they'd put me in the
Good squad
They're going to look you over
And they're giving you the eye
Good squad
They want you to come out
To play
You better say goodbye
As I listen to those two pieces
I have to ask a question
A question of us all
Wouldn't it be so much easier
So much simpler
If we were all the same
We wouldn't have any Chicago 1968s
We wouldn't have any Beijing 1989s
We could all live in placid harmony
We heard from Elvis Costello
A song called Goon Squad
And Walter Cronkite
Probably the only time
Those two have ever
Been back to back on anything
With kind of a
Compilation of events
From the 1960s
The way it was
And you can
You can watch the Wonder Years
You can think all
Sentimental
About how
Nice
The 60s were
Not that the
The Wonder Years does that
A lot of it is very serious
But it was hell
A lot of it was
Living hell
As I'm sure
Many people listening
Already know
You don't need me to tell you that
It's
An interesting parallel
To look back on
On this country in the 1960s
And to look at China
What's happening over there now
Many differences of course
But the basic feeling
Is the same
And it's
It's interesting
Because a couple of weeks ago
The date was
June 3rd
And I was
Rummaging through my papers
And I
Suddenly
Said to myself
Oh my god
It's been 10 years
June 3rd
1979
Was that day
That I climbed the fence
At the nuclear power plant
Out in Shoreham
Long Island
I wonder if anyone listening
Was a part of that
Odds are somebody was
Because so many people
Were out there that day
And I'll never forget
The
The way we
Looked forward
To what we would be doing
We would be
Questioning authority
In a way that
Was different
For most of us
We would actually
Be going
To a place
That we did not like
Mainly a nuclear power plant
And
Doing what we call
Civil
Disobedience
Where you
Knowingly violate
The law
And
Know that
In all odds
You will be arrested for it
But that is
Your way of making a statement
Everybody has their own way
Of making a statement
Some people
Write letters to the editor
Some people
Go to demonstrations
Some people
Get arrested
Some people become terrorists
Everybody has their own
Little way of
Of contributing
But my particular way
Back in 1979
Was to
Go to this demonstration
And for the first time
In my life
Take part in
Civil disobedience
Which involved
Climbing the fence
At Shoreham
And
As I look back
On this event
Ten years later
I tried to
Recreate the feeling
That I was going through
At the time
And
Boy I can't describe
Enough
What the feeling is
If you have not been
Through it yourself
When you realize that
You're venturing into
The unknown
And you don't know
What is going to
Happen to you
Because
You're going up
Against
These forces
That you have never
Gone up against before
Authority
I mean
Authority with guns
Authority
With
Militia
And
Metallic objects
And all kinds of
Of
Hard things like that
On their side
And you're just
One
Individual person
Trying to make a statement
Well that's
That's the person
I was
And
Along with a few
Of my friends
We
Engaged in what we called
The
Civil disobedience
Training sessions
Which took place
At somebody's house
Over the course
Of a few weeks
And
We went through
All kinds of
Different
Role-playing
Scenarios
Well what would
Happen if
A policeman
Charged you
With a club
What would happen
If
A policeman
Said something
Derogatory
About your
Grandmother
What would
Happen if
If
The rest of
Your group
Were torn apart
Or if
Some people
In your group
Decided to do
Something else
And break apart
What would
You do
How would
You react
And
It's one thing
To
To question
That
In your mind
As you're
Falling asleep
But to actually
Realize that
This could be
Happening to you
And it was
Imminent
That's something
Different
That's something
That
You learn
About yourself
You learn
Where
Your values
End
And where
Your fears
Begin
So
I'll have to
Admit I was
A bit nervous
Going into
June 3rd
1979
And
The day
Came
I remember
Waking up that
Morning and
Saying
Gosh darn it
All I don't
Know if I've
Ever seen
Rain like
That
It rained
It poured
If anybody
Was there
They certainly
Remember that
And
It didn't
Stop the
People from
Coming
Thousands of
People showed
Up
And rallied
On the
Beach
And
Our group
Of people
Took a bus
Out to
Out to
Shoreham
And got
Off
And
Started
Marching
Towards the
Plant
In the
Pouring
Rain
Getting
Soaking
Wet
Wondering
With every
Step
If it was
Going to
Be worth
It
If we
Were going
To be
Hurt
If we
Would
Regret
This
For the
Rest of
Our
Lives
And to
Borrow
A line
From the
Wonder
Years
If it
Would
Go
On our
Permanent
Record
Well
To make a
Long story
Short
We
Got to
The
Fence
And somebody
Threw a
Blanket over
The barbed
Wire
And one
By one
We all
Climbed
Over the
Fence
And into
The arms
Of
A police
Officer
Or two
Who said
To each
One of
Us
You're
Under
Arrest
I don't
Know how
Many people
Have actually
Had those
Words said
To them
But when
They
Are said
To you
You
Realize
These
People
Are playing
For real
This is
Not a
Game
This is
The major
Leagues
And
That's
When I
Really
Got scared
Because
They
Put the
Plastic
Handcuffs
On us
Well that
Didn't
Scare me
Too much
But
They
Kind of
Put us
All on
The bus
We all
Kind of
Kept our
Spirit
We were
Talking to
Each other
And we
Were happy
You know
We were
Positive
We were
Confident
That what
We were
Saying would
Be heard
And then
The bus
Drove away
Took us
To the
Sheriff's
Precinct
Where
We were
All
Put in
A cell
And for
The first
Time in
My life
No actually
The second
Time in
My life
I had
Been
Confined
And there
Was no
Way for
Me to
Get out
Of the
Situation
The first
Time I
Was
Confined
Was
When I
Went on
A whale
Watching
Expedition
And
Couldn't
Get off
The boat
And got
Sick
This
Was
A bit
More scary
Than that
Being locked
Up in
Jail
And realizing
There was
No way
To leave
Well
As it
Turned out
That situation
Was probably
One of the
Most pleasant
Of my
Entire
Life
Because
I was
In jail
With my
Friends
And
The law
Enforcement
People
There
Treated us
As if
We had
Done something
Courageous
By making
A statement
Now
I realize
That must
Be a
Completely
Alien
Way
Of
Dealing
With
Demonstrators
Because
As you
Look around
The world
That's not
The way
It's
Done
I mean
We
Americans
Can't
Get
Anything
Right
But
That's
How it
Was
Done
On
June
3rd
1979
And
Those
Were
My
Thoughts
Going
Going
Through
My
Head
On
June
3rd
1989
I was
Thinking
That was
Quite
A day
That
Changed
My
Life
And
Naturally
Naturally
I
Extended
That
My
Experiences
Back
Then
To
What
Was
Going
On
Thousands
Of
Miles
Away
In
Tiananmen
Square
And
Only
A
Matter
Of
Hours
Later
The
Clampdown
Began
And
It's
Still
Something
So
Shocking
To
Me
To
Realize
What
Has
Happened
What
Is
Currently
Happening
In
China
Right
Now
Probably
The
Most
Frightening
Aspect
Of
A
Totalitarian
Regime
Is
The
Way
In
Which
Control
Is
Exercised
Over
Just
About
Every
Part
Of
Someone's
Existence
And
To
See
Those
Tanks
Rolling
In
Crushing
Everything
In
Their
Path
And
Then
As
We
Are
Hearing
Now
To
Hear
The
Official
Version
Of
How
Things
Actually
Happened
And
How
No
Demonstrators
Were
Killed
And
The
Soldiers
Were
Victorious
Heroes
Two
Different
Demonstrations
Two
Totally
Different
Outcomes
We're
Going to
Be
Taking
Some
Phone
Calls
On
This
And
Other
Subjects
I'd
Like
To
Hear
From
People
As
Far
As
Their
Opinions
Of
What's
Going
On
Over
There
They
Have
Insight
As
To
As
To
How
This
Relates
Because
I've
Been
Following
World
Events
For
A
Very
Long
Time
As
Long
As
I
Can
Read
I
Suppose
And
I've
Seen
Demonstrations
Crushed
I've
Seen
People's
Movements
Turn
Back
It's
Got
Nothing
To
Do
With
Left
And
Right
It
Doesn't
Matter
That
The
People
In
Tiananmen
Square
Were
Marching
For
Democracy
It
Matters
That
They
Were
There
Expressing
A
Desire
For
Something
It
Would
Have
Been
Just
As
Shocking
If
They
Had
Been
Marching
For
For
A
Change
In
A
Democratic
Government
If
This
Had
Happened
In
Say
England
Or
Something
And
People
Were
Marching
For
Communism
And
The
Same
Result
Transpired
I
Doubt
A
Lot
Of
The
Media
Would
Pay
Attention
I'm
Certain
A
Lot
Of
The
Media
Would
Not
Pay
Attention
I
Mean
You
Have
Only
To
Look
At
Rightist
Regimes
In
South
America
That
Basically
Have
Done
The
Same
Thing
Although
Maybe
Not
As
Efficiently
And
President
Bush
And
ABC
News
Might
Devote
A
Little
Bit
Of
Time
To
It
But
That's
It
So
There
Is
Most
Definitely
Some
Bias
Here
And
We
Also
Have
To
Ask
Ourselves
Why
Is
China
So
Much
On
Our
Minds
Well
I
Think
The
Answer
Is
Obvious
China
Is
So
Much
On
Our
Minds
Because
It's
So much
On
Our
Damn
TV
Sets
And
Our
Newspapers
It's
It's
All
Over
The
Place
You
Can't
Get
You
Can't
Get
Away
From
It
China
Is
Everywhere
It's
Happening
All
Over
The
Place
So
That's
Why
It's
On
Our
Minds
Now
You
Tell
Me
Why
Don't
We
Think
About
Campuchia
Why
Don't
We
Think
About
Iran
Why
Don't
We
Think
About
Chile
And
Countless
Countless
Other
Places
The
Reason
Is
It
Doesn't
Get
Coverage
In
The
Media
Media
Coverage
Changes
These
Things
It
It
Brings
Them
Out
It
Makes
Us
See
The
People
The
Human
Faces
And
When
You
See
The
Human
Faces
Suffering
Boy
Does
That
Make
A
Difference
Now
Before
We
Take
Some
Phone
Calls
The
Phone
Number
Is
279
3400
And
I
Would
Like
To
Know
What
People
Are
Thinking
And
Try
To
See
Through
What
The
Media
Does
I'm
Not
Saying
The
Media
Is
Wrong
In
The
Way
They
Report
It
But
Use
Your
Instincts
Your
Judgment
Say
Well
You
Know
This
Doesn't
Seem
Right
To
Me
Maybe
Maybe
Maybe
Maybe
Maybe
There's
Something
Here
That's
Not
Being
Explored
We
We're
Able
To
Do
That
That's
The
Problem
With
America
We
Are
Able
To
Do
That
And
For
Some
Reason
We
Try
Not
To
The
Number
279
3400
Area
Code
212
Now
What
I
Have
In
My
Hands
Right
Now
At
This
Very
Moment
Is
A
Copy
Of
Beijing
Review
That
Was
Sent
Over
From
China
Must
Have
Been
A
Day
Before
Things
Really
Started
To
Get
Bad
And
Unfortunately
I
Don't
Have
The
Issue
That
Dealt
The
Most
With
The
Student
Demonstrators
In
That
Issue
Was
An
Interview
With
Li
Peng
Actually
The
Dialogue
Between
The
Students
And
The
Government
And
That
Was
Quite
Interesting
To
See
What
The
Students
Were
Saying
To
The
Government
What
The
Government
Was
Saying
In
Return
Basically
The
Students
Wanting
Their
Rather
Vague
Needs
To
Be
Addressed
And
The
Government
Saying
Our
First
Priority
Is
To
Help
The
Hunger
Strikers
And
To
Make
Sure
That
They're
Safe
That's
All
We're
Concerned
About
And
This
This
Newspaper
This
Magazine
Which
Is
Published
By
The
Government
Was
Giving
A
Very
Pro
Glance
You know
A pro
Side
To
The
Students
You read
An article
In the
Beijing
Review
And you
Say
These
Students
Are on
The
Right
Side
Yet
The
Same
Government
That
Put
Out
This
Magazine
Was
Responsible
For
Mowing
Them
Down
To
Me
That
That
Speaks
Of
Some
Disorganization
Some
Confusion
Anyway
I'll
Read an
Article
Called
Students
Return
To
Classes
This
Of course
Didn't
Really
Happen
This
Looked
Like
It
Was
Going
To
Happen
At
One
Point
But
The
Students
Came
Back
Most
Of
Them
Never
Really
Left
And
The
Demonstration
Of
Course
Got
Bigger
Martial
Law
Was
Imposed
Student
Organizers
Have
Declared
An
End
To
Their
Two
Week
Class
Boycott
And
Have
Called
Upon
All
Striking
Students
In
Beijing
To
Return
To
Classes
From
May
5th
Their
Announcement
Was
Made
May
4th
In
A
Massive
Student
Demonstration
In
Beijing's
Tiananmen
Square
While
They
This
Was
The
Third
Demonstration
Since
Mid
April
In
Which
Tens
Of
Thousands
Of
Students
Took
Part
On
The
Same
Day
Zhao
Jiang
General
Secretary
Of
The
CPC
Said
That
Students
Who
Had
Staged
Demonstrations
By
No
Means
Opposed
The
Fundamental
System
Of
China
But
Rather
Wanted
To
Have
The
Errors
Of
The
Party
And
Government
Corrected
The
Students
Came
From
Dozens
Of
Beijing's
Universities
And
Colleges
Including
Beijing
University
Qing
Hu
University
People's
University
And
Beijing
Normal
University
To
Demand
Democracy
Press
Freedom
And
Dialogue
With
Government
Flags
And
Banners
Fluttered
Over
A
Sea
Of
Students
That
Blanketed
Tiananmen
Square
And
This
Is
The
Interesting
Part
Some
Of
The
Banners
Proclaimed
Support
The
Communist
Party
Support
Socialism
Long
Live
The
May
Fourth
Spirit
Dialogue
Should
Be
Sincere
Give
Us
Human
Rights
Rule
By
Law
Yes
Rule
By
Man
No
Here's
Another
One
The
News
Media
Should
Be
Able
To
Tell
The
Truth
And
Oppose
Embezzlement
And
Corruption
Now
This
Is
Reported
In
The
Beijing
Review
Although
The
Number
Of
Striking
Students
Was
Smaller
Than
That
Of
April
27th
The
Demonstrators
Last
Week
Came
From
A
Much
More
Diverse
Grouping
The
Students
From
The
Start
Had
Refused
To
Apply
For
Advanced
Permission
From
Beijing's
Municipal
Public
Security
Bureau
For
The
Demonstration
May 4th's
Demonstration
Has
Involved
At
Least
70
Universities
And
Colleges
With
Many
Students
Coming
From
Schools
Around
The
Country
That
Had
Never
Before
Joined
Such
Actions
A
Banner
Banner
Banner
Reading
Chinese
University
Of
Hong
Kong
Was
Also
Seen
In
The
Procession
Much
Attention
During
The
Demonstration
Turned
To
A
Journalist
Contingent
That
Appeared
In
The
Afternoon
A
Few
Hundred
Journalists
From
The
Beijing
Based
Press
Most
Of
Them
Young
Join
The
Students
And
Put
For
Freedom
Of
The
Press
As
The
Key
Slogan
In
Their
Unprecedented
Action
The
Journalist
Banners
Also
Read
People
Have
The
Right
To
Know
The
Press
Should
Be
Objective
And
Fair
Minded
Strengthen
Press
Supervision
To
Promote
Political
Reform
And
On
May 4th
Student
Demonstrations
Also
Shook
Other
Big
Cities
Such
As
Shanghai
Wuhan
Hangzhou
Nanjing
And
About
Half
A
Dozen
Others
But
I
Think
That
Gives
You
An
Idea
Of
The
Coverage
That
Was
Taking
Place
Before
This
Happened
The
Chinese
Press
Beijing
Review
Looked
Like
It
Was
Trying
To
Be
Objective
It
Was
Trying
To
Give
The
Students
A
Fair
Chance
Well
That
May
Very
Well
Have
Been
Which
Leads
Me
To
Believe
That
What
Happened
Was
A
Surprise
To
The
People
In
The
Government
As
Much
Of
As
A
Surprise
To
The
People
On
The
Streets
Obviously
Not all
The
People
In
The
Government
But
Certainly
A good
Many
And I
Think
That
Accounts
For
The
Period
Of
Silence
When
Nobody
Really
Said
Anything
From
The
Official
Point
Of
View
But
In
A
Regime
Like
That
If
You
Read
Animal
Farm
You
Know
This
To
Be
True
It's
Very
Important
To
To
Support
The
People
In
Power
Regardless
Of
What
They
Do
Our
Telephone
Number
Again
279
3400
And
We'll
Take
Calls
Right
After
This
Rather
Appropriate
Piece
Of
Music
One
In
Two
Truth
coupe
One
Two
Three
Two
Four
Three
Four
Two
Three
Three
Three
Two
Two
Three
Two
Three
Three
Five
More
Three
Three
Two
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
I wish I'd come up with another word, a totalitarian regime, and one in which he is unable to get out, and one which has complete control over every part of his life, except one, his mind.
And that's the part that hopefully we all will manage to hold on to during our lifetimes.
Our number, 279-3400. Good evening.
Hi. I was wondering if you had had any contact with the Chinese students who are doing a hunger strike by the United Nations?
No, and I've meant to go by there. I haven't had the time to actually walk by and see it and talk to the people there.
Now, they began this, it was over a week ago, wasn't it?
About a week ago. I believe they're still at it.
I was wondering...
You'll notice, excuse me, you'll notice that there is not very much publicity about that in the press. I don't know...
There have been little snippets. They're not possibly as charismatic as some of the other things that are happening, but they're good people.
I was wondering if I can manage to raise them, would you want to maybe speak with one of them for maybe five minutes or so?
I don't understand. Sorry?
I'm fairly close to them, and they are very hardworking, but being from mainland China, they're not necessarily that sophisticated when it comes to going out and getting coverage.
So they pretty much have been sitting waiting for people to come and talk to them.
However, they do have a phone where they are, and if you'd like to speak with them, it might turn out to be convenient on both sides.
Well, I'd certainly like to. I don't know if you mean in the very immediate future, as in the next few minutes.
Or if you mean sometime this week?
Well, if it can be done on the spur of the moment, since you have airtime and they are there, it would be nice if you might want to speak with them briefly this evening.
I'm asking. I'm not trying to force my way into your show.
Well, no, I certainly appreciate the interest.
If you're able to get through again and you have a Chinese student on the line that is at the United Nations, I would certainly like to speak to them, certainly.
Okay.
And I think that could probably go for a good part of the rest of the radio station during other parts of the week, certainly the news department.
Uh-huh.
It's an ongoing story and one which I hope to see in the newspapers because, you know, people are putting their lives on the line.
And you really, you can't know how it feels because we all come from a different perspective.
And most of us, most of us, this is our land. This is where we were born.
Right.
But imagine how it feels to be in a foreign place and to hear about this going on in your home or even to have emigrated generations ago and to know that the land that your parents came from is in turmoil.
It's a horrible feeling.
I'm sure it is from the discussions I've had with people. I will go now and maybe I'll be able to get through again with someone.
Okay. I wish you luck. And if you're not able to get through to us, keep trying. But for the most part, keep in communication with them.
Okay.
That's the most important thing.
Bye.
Thank you.
Good evening.
Hi. Can you wait till I...
Hi. Can you wait till I...
Turn down the radio. Yes, I can.
Just a minute.
Go ahead.
Turn down the radio. Yes, I can.
I love hearing myself on delay.
Hi. I'm enjoying very much your show. I usually... I'm asleep at this hour, but I said I enjoyed your comments.
I kept you up, huh?
I beg your pardon?
I kept you awake, huh?
Well, I'm not going to blame you.
Okay. So what's on your mind?
Actually, I was reading. As a matter of fact, you made some interesting comments.
comments about how the news of a Chinese story very properly has...
...that, among other things, that it blanked out was the anniversary of the June 5, 1967 war,
where Israel took a whole bunch of territory that she's never given back.
And I couldn't help thinking about how...
I don't know if this has changed the subject in a few minds, but...
In 1967, I was a Zionist, and since then, slowly, I've changed my perspective.
In fact, the book I was reading, the title is The Arab-Israeli Confrontation of June 1967, An Arab Perspective,
which I got, as a matter of fact, from my local branch library.
And it's an edited volume where it has different articles on different aspects of it.
And the one I'm just reading now, the prelude to war, pointing out that, guess what?
Well, the Israelis were not on the defensive in June 1967.
They were very much on the offensive.
And there was no question about Israeli security.
They knew, and the Americans knew, and the Israelis knew, that they could win that war,
and that the Egyptians and the Syrians were no match militarily for them.
And they wanted the land, which they later, which they took in the course of that war, and they took it.
Well, I think you bring up an interesting point in that if you look at the courageous Chinese youth
who battled the tanks and the soldiers with what they had, namely sticks and stones,
compare that to the way the Palestinian youth are portrayed throwing their sticks and stones
at the soldiers that are invading their land.
And it's a different way of looking at what is a parallel situation, in my view.
Yeah, it's very interesting.
One last thing, back on the Chinese thing.
There's a very interesting article in Today's Times.
What they did was they reprinted an eyewitness account.
If people didn't get a chance to see that, it's a very powerful,
in less than a thousand words, you get a picture of what actually happened.
So if people would like to see that, they can review Today's Times.
That was the account by a student there?
I believe it was from the San Francisco Examiner?
I'm trying to remember now.
Forty or fifty thousand students who remained, even after they got word.
Apparently, they got word through a payphone in the area that the troops were coming.
Right.
And they were told to leave, and they decided not to leave.
Even, I don't know if it was a few hours later, they tried to leave, at which point, of course, it was too late.
And it is a very chilling account of the details of what happened.
It's very good of the Times to reprint it.
It wasn't even their story.
Yeah, it was the Examiner in San Francisco.
Right, right.
Let me ask you one question before you go, sir.
Do you think that our government, President Bush, do you think he's doing enough about the situation?
You mean in China?
Yeah.
Is there more that the government can do?
Oh, dear.
I'm not an expert on that, but it's very clear...
You don't have to be.
...that the CIA, you know, is involved in China, that we have all kinds of...
Well, for example, the United States and China have been arming, oh, dear, the Cambodian group, those bad guys in Cambodia.
Khmer Rouge?
Khmer Rouge.
They've been arming these Khmer Rouge all these years.
And now the CIA has been working with the Chinese because the Americans still hate the Vietnamese.
So we have all these links with China.
And just because they've killed 7,000 of their own students is no reason for Bush and the CIA to turn their backs on them.
Well, there's another word, too, and this word always makes people throw up their hands in despair, but I'm going to say it anyway.
Prophets.
Prophets is the word.
Your point.
A lot of profits can be made in China if we were to...
Money, money.
Oh, you're talking about money.
Yeah.
Not false profits or things like that, no.
If we were to close the door in China now and say, to hell with you guys, you know, you're going to massacre people.
You're not going to play in our ballpark.
We would lose a lot of money.
We would lose a lot of potential for sending technology and, you know, Kentucky fried chicken and all that kind of thing.
You know, you're stressing the money, which seems...
I don't know if you're a socialist.
A lot of socialists stress that.
To me, it's more ideology.
I mean, we could make, for example, a lot more money if we raised the per capita income of the people of Nicaragua.
You know, our capitalists could go down there and turn that into an economic zone.
But, you know, ideology wins out.
And so, all over the world.
So, I don't really think it's profits.
I think it's, or money.
I think it's ideology, the name of the game.
Well, I would agree with that, too.
But I think profits play a part, certainly.
Perhaps.
Nice talking to you.
Okay, thanks for calling.
Thanks.
Good evening.
As they fumble for the phone, are you there?
Yes, I am.
Go ahead.
I was just listening, and maybe it's a little far-fetched.
I'm not sure.
Okay.
But I was listening to the article that you were reading, the Beijing Times, or whatever
it was.
Beijing Review, yeah.
Right.
And I was thinking that, you know, the article that you were reading sounded very hopeful to
a lot of Chinese people.
Yeah, I got that, too.
In fact, what I was thinking, it was like, in a way, that those articles were baiting the
Chinese people to go to Beijing Square.
If you understand where I'm coming from, really.
You mean the article was trying to get people to go to Beijing, Tiananmen Square, so they
would be massacred?
It's like that, you know, we've got to find out who the dissonants are.
So we'll play up the positive angles of the demonstrations and everything.
Yeah, but the way it was presented, I mean, they had demonstrators carrying signs saying,
we support communism.
Why would the authorities want to get people who support communism to be demonstrators?
I don't know.
It's just that for some reason it kind of struck me in that vein.
I don't know why, but that was just the way it felt to me while you were reading it.
That, you know, the magazine was, you know, looking upon the students and the demonstrators
and the protesters as a very positive note.
And perhaps there were other people who were reading it who had a gripe, you might say,
to go there and to demonstrate.
I don't know.
It was just the way I felt when, and it was just the way I thought you were reading it.
That's really about all I have to say about that.
Let me just ask you one more question.
Did you follow the events before they exploded?
Yes, I did.
And did you expect anything like this to happen?
No, I didn't.
I was kind of, I was really hoping that the Chinese government or the Chinese people
would show the West a couple of things, but they didn't.
They just, like, you know, it's like they just, it was just barbarism.
Mm-hmm.
And I, I was really depressed for a while after that.
I just thought, hey, maybe something good would come out of it.
Maybe there would be an opening up, you know, or at least a few cracks in the old regime.
But I was, I was really upset when all those people died.
And, you know, I was hoping for something better.
And it didn't happen.
I think what really bothers me, the leaders are like in their 80s or whatever,
and here they are killing 17, 18-year-old kids.
That's, uh, that's really what got me.
I was, uh, the copy of Beijing Review I don't have with me,
which is the most recent one that I, I've gotten, um,
lists the many leaders and their ages.
Yeah.
And my God, there's, there's a dozen leaders that are 80, 85?
Right.
That make Reagan look like a kid.
Right.
And who in the world are these people, these, these, these octogenarians to tell teenagers
what is, what is right and what they should be doing?
I mean, it's not their country anymore.
They shouldn't be controlling every aspect of, of everyone's lives.
Let somebody else do it for a change.
Yeah, I was, I was thinking, I mean, these guys should be taken out of office and that,
that, you know, I mean, I just couldn't, I was thinking to myself,
my God, these guys are in their 80s and they're killing all these kids.
Right.
Now, I mean, I have nothing against senior citizens or, or people in their 80s or anything
like that, but I think when you have a country that, uh, is obviously dominated by, by so many
people who are, who are up there with their conservative, and, uh, to us it would be leftist,
but to them it's conservative ideology, obviously they're way out of touch with, uh, with a lot
of people that haven't been through what they've been through.
And you have to give the other folks a chance to come to the same conclusions.
You can't just force your conclusions on other people.
That was, that was my thoughts exactly when I was, when this happened.
You know, I was, I heard somebody say, I think it was on BAI, I'm not sure, but, um,
you know, the newspapers in this country were calling all the people that had died heroes
and stuff like that, and I wondered how the newspapers would respond if so many students
in this country were killed.
You know, it was just something that I heard.
Well, I mean, if the number was the same, I would, I would not know how they would respond,
but, um, and I, I don't remember how, uh, how the papers responded when Kent State occurred,
uh, which for all intents and purposes is the same thing.
Yeah, because there was, there was a lot of things, I remember Kent State, you know,
and I think, uh, Spiro or Ray, or, um, Nixon were calling them bums and everything else.
And I kind of think what the climate is in this country now, that if some students were
fired upon how the newspapers and the media would react, you know, it's, it's just mind-boggling
of what, what happened in China, and, uh, that's, that's it exactly, uh, you couldn't
phrase it better, mind-boggling, I mean, uh, anyone that just turns to the sports pages
after, after reading about this without, uh, sitting in stunned silence for a few minutes
is missing a great deal of, of, of something that is human.
Right.
Thanks for calling, sir.
Take care.
Our number is, uh, 279-3400, and, uh, the program is Unstuck in Time.
I'm Emanuel Goldstein filling in for Margot Adler, and, uh, we'll go right back to the phone
calls right after this.
We're gonna come hard, get over, get around, to allow, to come in high-five, star on the ground,
for all, to allow, a woman, darling, she had a tear, she's made, so beatin' in fair,
to allow, to allow, ramp, to allow, to allow, to allow, to allow, to allow, to allow, to allow,
to allow and, uh, will will go play, not beat too thin, around, to allow, to allow, to que
through lies of the screen, to sharpen the speech of an animal's food, a new party of, of believe.
I'm ready, I'm ready, I'm ready, I'm ready.
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Good evening. I just want to comment about the Chinese situation.
Go ahead.
Well, it seems to me that in this whole world that I just wish that the Chinese communists
would take their own advice and not talk to people.
And what would that solve?
What would that solve? It would solve the hypocrisy factor.
You're advocating China becoming isolationist again?
No.
All right, then I don't understand what you're saying.
For the Chinese to pursue their own destiny like all countries in the world, all people.
Okay. Can you be more specific? What exactly are you saying for the present time?
I am saying that you should stop talking at people and take your own advice.
For example, the army is here in Samaria really to protect the PLO from the settlers.
Because they're not really there to kill the Easter bunnies.
There's more than the PLO living there, first of all.
I mean, you know, little babies and kids, they're not necessarily the PLO.
Some of them might be, but...
Well, you know, if you really care about them, why don't you stop patronizing them?
Because they're not Easter bunnies.
Right. Okay, thanks for calling, sir.
Every so often you come across a life form that hasn't been charted yet.
Good evening.
Hello?
Yes, can I help you?
Yeah, I have to...
I know this topic is China, but I really have to object to the kind of facile comparison that's being made
between peaceful demonstrators in China and rock-throwing Palestinians.
Throwing a rock is simply not a peaceful act,
and people can get killed or brain-damaged or crippled by a thrown stone.
Excuse me one second.
I agree with you that it's not a peaceful act, but neither is occupation of a village.
That's not a peaceful act either.
Do you see what I'm saying?
They're fighting back in whatever way they know how,
and the Chinese students were not throwing stones at the soldiers
before the soldiers started moving in on them.
It was after the soldiers started attacking that the Chinese students...
Yes, they got violent, too, in a pathetic way by throwing stones.
It was the only thing they could do.
The violent act was committed first by the Chinese troops.
As far as the occupation, and the other comment being that the Israelis were the aggressors in the 1967 war,
first of all, the Arabs who had maintained a state of war for all those years never lifted it,
and to the contrary were trying to enforce a blockade at the time the war started.
I mean, I suppose the typical pacifist BAI mentality is, well, you know,
let the act become so aggressive that there would be a really brutal, long-drawn-out war
that would have been maybe a fair fight militarily,
but I don't think Israel really had that option.
And as a result, the Golan Heights were occupied because those were strategic,
and the border became the Jordan River because that was a more defensible border.
I agree the Palestinian problem is a serious one,
but I'm getting really tired of this one-sided propaganda constantly on this station,
as if there's only one side of the issue.
Well, what I say on this station comes from me.
I'm not just talking about you.
Right, but that's the way it is with other people, too.
I mean, we don't have a doctrine here at the radio station.
People are free to say what is on their mind and what they think,
and a lot of times what people think goes against what everybody else says,
and that's the way it should be.
I agree that's the way it should be,
but from WBAI, rather than hearing a kind of balanced approach,
you just hear the same anti-Israel propaganda.
You don't hear news or an intelligent analysis of the situation from a balanced perspective.
It's simply mouthing the same.
I mean, I'm not blaming you personally.
Sir, do you think that you hear...
It's not been what I would call mainly a program of propaganda, but...
Let me just ask you one question.
Do you think that the news you hear on the networks is fair and balanced?
No, but why is that constantly the response to this criticism?
You're telling me because the network is a bias that WBAI should serve as a counterweight
and just present propaganda...
No, but what I'm saying is news is...
...and just be reactive to whatever bias the networks produce.
So you have to produce this high-pitched, frenzied propaganda
because that's the only way you're going to counteract it.
Okay, well, sir, first of all, it's an opinion.
I don't refer to opinions as propaganda.
Second of all, the reason I bring up network news
and the fact that they're not balanced as well,
I wonder, do you call the networks and say,
your news is not balanced?
Now, I think no news is balanced.
No news can be balanced.
You see, it's inherent in the way that news is reported
that it cannot be 100% fair.
There's always going to be inequity someplace.
And to just say that WBAI is unbalanced is not fair
because every station, whether they ignore some things
or they just cover certain kinds of stories
or put a slant on the stories,
they're all biased to some degree in some way.
And most of them are biased in a different way.
Look, I credit some of the network news programs
with at least trying to be objective.
I think Channel 13, for example,
I think NPR, all things considered,
try very hard to be objective
and come very close on a lot of issues.
I don't think Sally O'Brien and Valerie Van Isler
and Robert Knight even make an attempt
to try to approach the situation analytically
or from a balanced perspective.
It's almost as if they have some personal anti-Israeli agenda.
And I'm sorry I have to say it,
but I think there's some anti-Jewishness behind it, too,
because it's so much the kind of criticism you hear
from people who are anti-Jewish,
but of course that's not a fashionable sentiment on VAI,
so it's put behind this facade.
For example, Robert Knight had this...
No, I'm sorry, it wasn't Robert Knight.
It was another program where they were talking
about feminism in the Arab world,
and of course it's practically non-existent,
but they were trying so hard to justify the Arab...
This was on VAI.
The Arab culture, the Arab point of view,
that somehow they tortured the situation
to seeming that within their own spheres of activity,
Arab women were equal.
And it was such an egregious example
of the kind of ideological dancing around issues
that you guys do there
that I find infuriating.
The other difference with the networks, by the way,
is that the networks don't ask me for money
because they're the one true voice
of the truth and facts and objectivity.
The networks, I agree, they have corporate sponsors,
but I think National Public Radio is a far better,
handles the news far better
than either you or them.
Well, okay, and there's a reason for that
because they do have a lot more funds.
Now, if you hear somebody going on our radio station
saying that we are the voice of objectivity
and what you hear from our radio station is the truth,
I don't think that person is representing this radio station
because we don't come off as being the voice of truth.
At least I haven't seen that around here.
We offer an alternative, an alternative view.
Sometimes it's not a popular view.
I don't think it's fair to,
every time someone says something against Israeli policy
or even against Jewish policy,
which is not the same thing,
to categorize people as anti-Semitic.
I don't think that's fair,
but this is not the subject matter of this program.
I'm going to move on to another call.
We are talking about China.
We're going to try to continue to talk about China.
The number is 279-3400.
It's 12 minutes to, I'm sorry, 13 minutes to 1 o'clock.
You're listening to WBAI in New York.
This is Emanuel Goldstein filling in for Margot Adler
on this Monday evening.
And again, the number 279-3400.
Good evening.
Or good morning, actually.
Is anybody there?
We'll go on to another call.
Good evening.
Emanuel?
Yes.
Hi.
Just one second.
Let me lower my radio, please.
Go ahead.
I don't know why they keep it up so high anyway.
Okay.
No, it's just that I can listen this way.
I have a few comments I'd like to make.
One, all basically dealing with what's going on in China.
And the media perception that China's very criminal
for killing their labor leaders and students
that are fundamental in this revolution,
this is the same thing that goes on in El Salvador
and they're portrayed as heroes.
Yes.
And, you know, I mean, that just bothers me a lot.
I mean, like the perception that, you know,
the Chinese government is criminal.
Of course they are.
I mean, for killing labor leaders and students.
But, you know, the same thing goes on in El Salvador.
The same thing goes on in many, many countries
and has gone on unnoticed in many countries in the world.
I'm just saying that they're praised as heroes.
They're like the founding fathers, Reagan said, you know,
the El Salvador people.
I think, well, let me ask you,
what do you think would balance the situation?
What do you think would make us see El Salvador
in the same way as we see China when atrocities occur?
I'm sorry.
I was looking, I had to write things down.
I'm not paying any attention.
I get nervous when I talk on the radio
and sometimes I forget.
Would you just say, I'm sorry.
Sure.
What do you think would make the situation
seem a bit more balanced to people?
How do you think they could look at El Salvador,
see atrocities, and put it in the same perspective
as us looking at China and seeing atrocities?
Well, I think fundamentally the fact that, you know,
we're a capitalist society and newspapers are businesses.
I mean, the way they report news is going to be,
we're the capitalist slant, their business, you know.
Yeah.
Yeah, you know, I think you just touched upon
a very important point that I think we could have used
for the last caller.
You have to be uneasy with any news organization
that's a business.
And they all are, basically.
They all, I mean, they are in the business of making money.
Now, whether that reflects in their programming,
it's different with every organization, obviously.
I have to be very, very uncomfortable
with the fact that NBC is owned by General Electric.
That just doesn't sit well with me.
Now, here at Pacifica, here at WBAI,
nobody, nobody can tell us what to do.
Nobody can tell us what viewpoint is correct.
The United States government,
the TAS News Agency,
the Nuclear Regulatory Commission,
General Electric, Nabisco, Exxon,
nobody, nobody can tell us what not to say.
And that is the difference.
If you had every network playing along the same rules
as Pacifica,
every radio station playing along the same rules as WBAI,
then you'd have a lot more interesting things going on.
And that would be democracy in action, you know?
That's, I don't know, pie in the sky it seems like today.
Seems like, yeah.
Yeah.
Okay, just a couple other things.
Quickly.
You made an analogy between Kent State and Beijing.
And the difference I find there is that
Kent State wasn't Washington, D.C.
You know, it's not the capital of the country.
It was an anti-war demonstration isolated on a campus,
whereas Beijing, you know, that's the heart of the country.
That's the capital.
And can you imagine, like,
if the homeless occupied Washington, D.C.,
and then they refused to let the tanks move for eight days
or something like that,
what would happen in our country?
Interesting, yeah.
I mean, you know, just some sort of people asking for,
you know, the American dream.
I mean, you know, just asking for a fair share of something.
Well, sir, you know, in a way,
we did have our own Tiananmen Square.
And do you know what it was called?
I'm sure we've had many, but...
I'm not sure just what you're referring to.
It was called Tompkins Square.
Oh, okay.
And I wonder if that's the first time
anyone's drawn that analogy.
Okay, that's, I guess,
too close to the woods to see the trees.
So, you know, I was thinking in world terms and stuff.
Thank you very much for calling, sir.
I'm going to go on to some more calls.
Okay, Emmanuel.
Take care.
Good night.
Good night.
And good morning.
Oh, let me turn right.
Wait a minute.
Okay.
All right, it's off.
I'm trying to get my thoughts together.
One point about the Beijing review.
Yeah.
Generally, like, I was in China last year,
and that's sort of like,
I would think that would be put in,
that article was mostly for Western consumption.
Well, yes, it was in English, but...
Like in the hotels, the lobbies,
and, you know, you just pick up.
Mm-hmm.
You know, like there are loads of them,
you know, Beijing review for you to take home.
It is put out by the government for Western eyes,
but then again, so is the English service of Radio Beijing,
and I've been listening to that over the last few days,
and it hasn't been anything like what has been in this magazine.
Oh, yeah, well...
And, you know, I can hardly wait
until I get the next copy of this magazine
to see if they completely change the way they report on the events.
Um, might even cease publication for a while.
Well, they might just stop sending it to me.
I don't know.
Um, no, there was one other thing.
Um, um...
Um, you mentioned about the, um...
the police being as repressive as they were.
Um...
The thing is, like...
I expected them to be quite repressive,
because when you think of what the police,
when they, um...
Let's see, was it about a year and a half ago?
The uprising in Tibet?
Well, it's an ongoing uprising.
Well, it was sort of like a disturbance.
Yeah.
They were quite brutal.
Oh, yeah, but, uh, again, Tibet is not, uh...
We didn't have any cameras there,
so we don't really know what happened.
You know, the...
That is what surprised me,
that they did not demand that the newspaper people leave,
because when the, um...
South African government demanded that journalists get out,
they got out.
Very, very good point there.
For the last, uh, three years,
uh, we have not seen any live...
And are killing other South Africans.
Yes, we have not seen any live satellite pictures
coming out of South Africa,
and we have no way of saying this is outrageous.
We just sort of put it in the back of our minds,
and we see the censored story from South Africa
once a week in the New York Times,
and, uh, everything is fine and dandy.
China, we saw it.
We were there live,
and then they pulled the plug,
and we were there on tape,
but we were still there.
Now, as to why they, uh,
why they didn't kick everybody out
and just say, you know,
everybody stop doing this and go away
and let us kill our people in peace,
uh, I...
The only reason I can think of
is confusion from within.
There was not enough organization
for them to do that,
and, uh, they...
Uh, there are a lot of signs of that.
The...
The conflicts in the way it was presented
in Beijing Review
and on the, um,
on the television in China,
um, the...
The long silence
before anything was said about it.
I don't think this was something that, uh,
that was planned out extremely well.
It's something that happened,
and they had to figure out
how to get out of it,
how to make an excuse for it,
how to get the people to
continue to rally behind them,
and I think they just picked up
a copy of Animal Farm
and figured the whole thing out.
Well, do you think, um...
I mean, I got some impressions
that, you know, when they, um...
I think it was, like,
the second week of the demonstration
when they said,
well, if the students go home,
they would be able to talk
or something like that,
and a lot of students
began to leave.
Mm-hmm.
Um,
and then,
when the others didn't leave,
do you think at that point
they decided,
well, you know,
I'm sorry, you know,
enough is enough,
we'll just have to, you know,
take control?
It's hard to say
when the decision was made,
but at some point,
at some point,
one of those octogenarians
must have gotten
really, really miffed,
and, uh, realized
that these punk kids
weren't going to, uh,
uh, take no as an answer,
and they had to be
given a good beating.
That's the only thing,
it's, it's, uh,
it's really,
in an absurdly simple way,
a big generation gap,
and, uh,
a big gap in the Chinese,
uh...
When you think about last year,
you know,
Deng Xiaoping was being praised
as this person
who allowed, um,
farmers to, you know...
Oh, certainly,
but, I mean,
just like, uh,
Deng Xiaoping
obviously has two sides,
everybody can have a brutal side.
I'm sure, I'm sure
Gorbachev has his,
his, his brutal side.
I'm, I'm, I'm sure
Bush has his brutal side,
or his good side,
whichever you wish to
focus upon.
Isn't that the same side?
So it's, um,
once you look upon
someone as either a, um,
a hero or, or a villain,
you're missing
key aspects to them,
to their, their character,
yes.
Deng Xiaoping
seemed like a good guy,
but now he seems
like a bad guy.
Well, now,
I heard testimonials
from people there,
you know,
what a great thing
he was doing.
Uh-huh.
And, you know,
we were taken to,
you know, like,
different,
small businesses,
and you could actually see
that, um,
you know,
I guess,
I,
the best I could call it
was, you know,
different types of
small businesses
flourishing.
And they had nothing
but praise the Deng Xiaoping.
It's very true.
China was on the verge
of, uh,
of much westernization.
Uh, we're at the end
of our time.
I'd like to, uh,
thank you for calling.
And, uh,
thanks to all of the callers
for calling in, uh,
on this, uh,
program.
And, um,
I guess, uh,
the only parting words
I can leave you with
are to, uh,
continue,
as, uh,
with every kind of,
uh, major event
happening in the world,
to continue to follow it
and ask a lot of questions
and look for the other sides
because, uh,
that's something that's, uh,
that's always missing
in the mainstream media
is the other side
of the news.
And, uh,
we as individuals
are,
are entrusted
with finding that out.
I don't know what's, uh,
what's going to happen
next in China.
It's, uh,
it certainly has been
a scary couple of weeks
for anyone that values,
um,
individual rights
and liberty
and that kind of thing.
Um,
again, though,
if we, uh,
if we watch this
and we don't forget
what's happening,
uh,
we'll learn something
from it,
something we can
pass along,
something we can
prevent from happening
in the future.
And, uh,
go by the, uh,
United Nations sometime.
Show your support
to the students
that are there,
who I believe
are there at this moment.
I'll certainly
try to do that.
that are there,
to the next moment.
mad