trust that you know you want something to happen and that it's going to happen and be okay
then I think it's um start to listen and really not listen for a certain thing but really listen
in a way that says um I'm going to accept a voice accept a feeling and and start to just
be in tune with yourself when I said you know just really start to breathe I really meant that
just really start to breathe uh because we don't give our chance ourselves a chance sometimes to do
that so it's kind of like starting to breathe uh and then see what comes up for you let different
ideas come into your mind meditation often people say they can't meditate because they're actually
trying to force a preconceived idea about what meditation is but meditation can be being quiet
and letting the thoughts that want to come in your mind come into your mind and then look at those
thoughts because those may be some of the very things that are interfering with you living your
life the way you want to right because I've tried some of the like self-hypnosis to become more focused
and just uh to learn to concentrate on things because I always find myself like going off on
tangents when I'm even reading a book or anything like that right I know what you're talking about
um and I I'm not sure if that's a problem or if if uh if I need to correct that or uh or what but
um I've been using these like self-hypnosis tapes uh to uh to try and correct that I find myself
resisting okay I what you know what um like I have to get off the air now but I have done some self-hypnosis
and I have found it very effective for certain things so maybe one of the things I'll talk about next
week I'll start off talking about self-hypnosis if you if you're listening maybe you could just call
in and I'll know and we can go off on that because I think it has some real useful applications
and but I do think there's a real a real method of doing self-hypnosis when I just tried to teach
myself that um by myself I found difficulty but after I had experienced it with a person who was you
know trained and did hypnosis after they had gotten me in the state and I had a perception of what it was
like I could then do it myself and I and so I I currently do that so and sometimes we need a
guide and sometimes the tape will do that I'm not always sure but let's start off on this next week
if you call me okay great okay thank you a lot okay bye-bye okay uh that's it um um the next show
is ready Tom's not here Tom is not going to be here until that the uh crafts fair is over go to the
craft fair it started I think I'm going to try and get by there maybe this weekend and uh just just I
just go for the artwork you know and the uh artist sheer artistry of it because uh it's very beautiful
um and last year you know somebody gave me like gave me something really wonderful like this little
uh cutting board really round it was very wonderful because I had no money and I just went up there to
visit and I think somebody else may have given me something too it was very very wonderful they were
just um very kind people and then I got of course a lot of people gave me wonderful spirit and energy
so that was very nice okay I need to get out of here I I just want to thank you I have um
totally totally enjoyed sharing with you and I'm glad you you know you're part of uh part of my sharing
and my breathing so um in one breath you know one breath one uh one movement we are we are uh a common
a common breathing and a common listening um love yourselves well and uh think well of what you can do for
yourself you know treat yourself gently and kindly and I will do I will do the same and I love you all
thank you
Thank you.
Thank you, Carletter, and it's just about four minutes after one o'clock.
This is Emmanuel Goldstein filling in for Tom on the weaponry program, and this is WBAI
in New York.
And today we have a couple of special things this morning to talk about.
Actually, one very special thing to talk about, and that is flag-burning, and we have two
rather special people to hear from, mainly Joey Johnson, the guy that started this whole
mess by having the Supreme Court rule on his case, and also Dave Blalock, who also has
been involved in the flag-burning controversy.
We'll be hearing from them in just a moment or two, and then taking your phone calls and
having all kinds of other fun, too.
We're going to start off with some music from The Clash.
The Clash.
Can we go?
We are one of a, men's boss
We want to realize
We want to realize
We want to realize
I said, till it, till it, till it, till it, till it, till it.
I said, till the day.
Well, well, me and you
When you think about that
Overdrive
It's a lie, it's a lie
We've run down the door
Every face on every side
We've run down the door
We don't want those gangbots
We want to keep our hearts
We don't need no gangbots
We need to keep our hearts
We don't want those gangbots
We don't want those gangbots
We don't want those gangbots
One to one, fight is all
We don't need no gangbots
We need to keep our hearts
We'll be right back.
Dream!
Dream!
Dream!
Dream!
Dream!
It's up to you not to be the caller
You must not act the way you were brought up
Who knows the reasons why you were grown up
Who knows the plans and why they were drawn up
It's up to you not to be the caller
I don't wanna die
It's up to you not to be the caller
I don't wanna kill
For he will die
Is he okay?
Is he okay?
Maybe I wanna see the we feel
Over key and come down to the sea
It's up to you not to be the caller
I don't wanna die
It's up to you not to be the caller
I don't wanna kill
All the young people down the ages
It's up to you not to be the caller
I don't wanna die
It's up to you not to be the caller
I don't wanna die
It's up to you not to be the caller
I don't wanna die
It's up to you not to be the caller
I don't wanna die
It's up to you not to be the caller
I don't wanna kill
For he will die
I don't wanna die
It's up to you not to be the caller
I don't wanna kill
For he will die
For he will die
For he will die
For he will die
For he will die
For he will die
My brother is younger than Edith.
Sorry, I didn't get the coffee.
Although God knows I may not remember.
There is a dawn that I should be with her.
There is a town unlike any other.
It's up to you not to be in the corner.
You must not act the way you were brought up.
Who gives you one?
Why should you do it?
It's up to you not to be in the corner.
It's up to you not to be in the corner.
It's up to you not to be in the corner.
It's up to you not to be in the corner.
It's up to you not to be in the corner.
Oh, there is a road.
It's up to you not to be in the corner.
It's up to you not to be in the corner.
It's up to you not to be in the corner.
It's up to you not to be in the corner.
It's up to you not to be in the corner.
Yeah!
It's up to you not to be in the corner.
It's up to you not to hear the call out
It's up to you not to hear the call out
Don't wanna die
There's a rule I wanna live for
It's up to you not to hear the call out
You know, I still say that's the best album that The Clash put out.
A lot of people say it's too damn political, but so what?
You know, I mean, how can you believe that art doesn't delve into politics,
isn't allowed to delve into politics?
Like those who supported the ban on funds to the art exhibit a couple of weeks ago
would say, oh, it's too political, therefore it's not acceptable
for a National Endowment for the Arts grant.
Artists have a lot to say about what's going on in the world
because they affect the outlook of many people
and they also reflect the outlook of many people.
They're the voice of you and me.
And we heard two songs from the Sandinista record by The Clash.
That's the one where they put out 36 songs.
For no particular reason, they just put out a triple album, six songs on each side.
And we heard two of them.
We heard The Equalizer and The Call Up.
And I hope, in addition to appreciating the music, you were listening to the lyrics too
because there's a lot in there.
There's all kinds of thoughts.
It's probably the most relevant being in The Call Up.
I guess the message is just to think.
To think against the mindless nationalist spirit.
And I don't see that as being anti-patriotic at all.
Now, you may think that burning flags is anti-patriotic.
Perhaps it is anti-patriotic.
I mean, yeah, it could be anti-patriotic.
I could see that kind of interpretation.
But should it be illegal?
That's the big question.
That's the question that the Supreme Court threw at us this past year.
And it's so funny because what so many people have lost sight of is what the Supreme Court actually said.
The Supreme Court agreed with people that burned the flag.
No, they didn't say, oh, yeah, go out and burn your flags, everyone.
It's the right thing to do.
No, they said it's part of free speech.
And, yeah, you know, that sort of makes sense if you've been living around here long enough
and, you know, checking into things like the Constitution and the Bill of Rights
and all those other things that we started this country out with.
It was a difficult decision, and it wasn't a unanimous one by any means.
But it was a decision nonetheless.
So it's not a bunch of anarchists and communists and homosexuals
and all kinds of other people that mainstream America seems to be so afraid of.
No, it wasn't them.
It was the Supreme Court that said this.
So these laws that are desperately being passed by panicky members of Congress
are laws to get around the Supreme Court ruling,
not to get around all these radical people that are not patriotic.
No, it's to get around the Supreme Court.
Are we saying the Supreme Court isn't patriotic?
Well, that's quite a statement.
Maybe they aren't.
Maybe it's all a Russian plot,
although the odds of that are becoming less and less every day, it seems.
I'm sure there's someone out there plotting to do this.
Anyway, enough of this rambling.
We have some special presentations.
First, a little background.
I have in my hands the Emergency Committee to Stop the Flag Amendment and Laws newsletter.
And while it's a mouthful to say all that,
the newsletter itself is only about five pages long,
and I'll give out the address and phone number in a little bit.
First, to lead into our first piece,
which will be a speech given this past Sunday by Dave Blalock.
This article entitled,
DC-4 Arrested on Capitol Steps for Flag Burning.
Now, you may recall that the law was passed on October 28th,
the law that made it a crime to burn a flag
that went above the heads of the Supreme Court,
which is something I know a lot of us would have liked to have done in the past,
and this shows how easy it can be.
All you have to say is it's not patriotic,
and you've got a law all of a sudden.
Because no congressman, no senator,
no politician anywhere
is going to vote against something that could be construed
as making him look anti-patriotic or just not patriotic enough.
It's a scary thing, you know?
It scares the hell out of me when people start talking like that.
And when politicians are panicking and saying,
oh, I know it's a crazy law,
but I've got to vote for it or I'll be voted out of office
because it'll look like I'm not patriotic.
I mean, that sure brings back memories.
I mean, memories that I've never had personally,
but if you read a little bit of history, it's in there.
Anyway, on October 30th,
two days after the flag law went into effect,
four people burned flags on the steps of the U.S. Capitol
in Washington, D.C.
The burning flags were juxtaposed on the news that night
with massive demonstrations in East Germany.
And the next day, only three people were charged.
The fourth one was Joey Johnson,
the infamous flag burner
and now the Supreme Court president,
who we'll be hearing from a bit later.
He was somehow left out.
He wasn't charged.
Now, Joey was obviously upset by this
and he charged selective non-prosecution.
And he stated,
their attempt to sever me from the case
by dropping the charges against me
was an act of profound cowardice
and desperation on the part of Emperor Bush
and the government.
Now, Ron Kuby, one of the attorneys, pointed out,
this was a clear attempt to go to the Supreme Court
in a way that doesn't embarrass the government.
The government has to argue
that this new statute is not at all
like the statute declared unconstitutional
in Texas v. Johnson.
It's not going to help them
if the defendant in this case is Joey Johnson.
Same flag, same defendant.
The three who were charged have stated
that Joey is the unindicted fourth defendant.
Now, those three were Dave Blalock,
who we'll be hearing from in just a minute,
Sean Eichmann, and Dred Scott.
Dave is with VVAW,
which is Vietnam Veterans Against the War.
Sean and Dred are revolutionary artists.
You may recall Dred's piece,
entitled,
What is the Proper Way to Display a U.S. Flag,
caused an uproar
when it was part of a student exhibit last spring.
The maintain-on-the-floor-or-ground language
in the flag law stems from this controversy.
And Sean Eichmann is a curator
of the Helms Degenerate Art Show
in New York City.
You've got to love a title like that.
I mean, God bless him for coming up with that.
The Helms Degenerate Art Show.
I love it.
And he's also a member of Refuse and Resist,
which is a group here in New York City.
Now, the four are being represented
by the Center for Constitutional Rights,
who handled Johnson's case at the Supreme Court.
Lawyers William Kunstler,
David Cole,
Ron Kuby,
and Nina Kraut
are at the center of a legal strategy
which revolves around the motion
to dismiss the case
based on the unconstitutionality
of the Flag Protection Act.
This motion was filed on December 5th.
The prosecution's response
is due January 12th,
and the defendant's reply
is due January 17th.
A decision is expected soon after.
Either the government
or the defendants
will appeal that decision
to the Supreme Court
under the expedited review section
of the Flag Law.
So, it will be the motion to dismiss,
which will be the subject
of Supreme Court review
probably this spring.
And as of this newsletter
that I'm reading from here,
it's unclear if or how
the D.C. case
and the Seattle case,
which we'll hear a little bit about
in a few minutes,
will be related in court.
But in any case,
if the Supreme Court
strikes down the law,
then the charges will be dropped.
If the Supreme Court
upholds the law,
then three will go to trial.
It's fascinating to follow
this kind of thing,
and follow it we will
here at WBAI
on this and other programs.
Now, what we're about to hear
is a short speech
from Dave Blalock,
who was one of those people
that burned the flag.
He's going to be explaining
why he burns flags.
It's something to think about.
I mean,
these people don't do this
for a hobby.
They have reasons.
They think about
what they're doing.
Maybe not all people
who burn flags
think about it,
but I can guarantee
these folks do.
And whether you agree or not,
it's worth listening to.
Maybe you'll understand
what's behind it.
And then the question
we'll be asking
when we come back
to you,
our listeners,
is,
is this right?
Should these people
be allowed to do this?
Is it a legal
kind of a thing
to burn flags?
And any other kind
of topics
that are on your mind?
I'd especially like
to hear from
those people
who disagree
because it's one thing
to sit around here
and just say,
yeah,
this is terrible.
Our rights are being
infringed upon
and all that kind of thing,
but,
you know,
I'd like to hear
other views on it.
I'd like to see
how people think
this is fair
because obviously
I don't think it's fair
that they've made a law
to outlaw this.
Again,
for the purpose
of those people
that won't be with us
when we come back
because it does happen,
that's the way radio works,
sometimes people just
tune out and fall asleep,
things like that.
I'm going to give you
the address and name
of this organization now
and I'll give it again
later on too
in case you want
to become more involved.
It's called
The Emergency Committee
to Stop the Flag Amendment
and Laws.
They're located
at 189 Franklin Street
in New York.
The zip is
10013
and their phone number
which you can call now
to get more information
is 212-941-5474.
And we're going to go now
into a speech
by Dave Blaylock.
This was recorded
this Sunday
at the State University
of New York
at Stony Brook
and we want to thank
the people
at Stony Brook
at the SAB
Concerts Committee
for helping us
to get this recording
and also the folks
at WUSB Radio
out in Stony Brook.
What we're going to hear
is Dave Blaylock
and shortly after
we will hear
from Joey Johnson.
I guess a lot of people
since we burnt the flag
on the steps
of the Capitol
a lot of people said
hey man
why'd you do that
type of thing.
And people are very surprised
at how could a veteran
who fought in the wars
want to burn
the American flag
because you hear
a lot of the
opposition out there
around a lot
of World War II vets
and everybody else
waving a flag
saying it's a disgrace
to burn the flag.
And I'd like to say
this on that point
when I look out here
and I see a lot
of students out here
and I can remember
I was never
a college student myself
but I can remember
back when I was
18, 19 years old
and everything.
I mean the town
I grew up in
in western Pennsylvania
is a steel mill
coal mine town
and I grew up
pledging allegiance
to the flag.
I'm sure everybody
else here has.
Every morning
you'd be in school
and you do like
this religious ritual
and you pledge
allegiance to the flag.
So I was pretty much
brainwashed into
that whole scene
right from Jump Street
pledged allegiance
to the flag
and those days
we had John Wayne movies
now they got Rambo
type of movies
but then we had
John Wayne movies
so you get you
all psyched up
for the whole war move.
So I volunteered
for Vietnam
I volunteered
for the army
I joined in 1968
one year after
graduating from high school
and it sort of
struck me
because I didn't know
that much about
what was going on
in the world
being where I grew up at
there was no anti-war
demonstrations going on
out there
we were pretty much
isolated from the rest
of America
and everything
that was happening
but as soon as
I got thrown
into the army
and you start
seeing everything
you got running
into people
from all over
the country
who were guys
black guys
from the ghettos
who were drafted
in from the ghettos
you had guys
hillbilly guys
from down south
you had people
from all over
being thrown
into basic training
and in basic training
my first
my impressions
of the flag
got much more
stronger
of hatred
for it
and I'm going to
describe that to you
because we went
through basic training
taught to hate
and the flag
flew above
buildings
where we were
constantly
brainwashed
into hating slopes
gooks
slant eyes
it was a whole
heavy duty
racist number
put on us
to hate people
of a different
color skin
and slanted eyes
the American flag
threw above
the bayonet training
course
where we literally
spent at least
eight hours
throughout basic
training
sticking bayonets
into yellow skin
slant eyes
silhouettes
and chanting
kill, kill, kill
without mercy
that type of a number
was a heavy duty
coming on my head
and whenever people
started thinking
of rebellion
in basic training
they had the military
they had a stockade
at Fort Jackson
it was a military prison
there for anybody
who spoke out
against it
or went against
the game plan
the stockade
was right there
and the American flag
flew right above there
you were incarcerated
and sentenced up
to six months
of hard labor
for rebelling
or speaking out
against the U.S. war efforts
that was going on
in Vietnam
so pretty much
I went through
the whole number there
basically kept my mouth shut
and went right off
into Vietnam
when I got into Vietnam
and I landed
it was an interesting thing
when I landed
at Benoit Air Base
in 1969
February 69
it was during
the Tet holidays
over there
the Tet Offensive
was a big number
that happened
the year before
so everybody's
very nervous
there was various
actions going on
in 69
I get off the plane
in Benoit Air Base
and get off the plane
there's a horrible
stench in the air
I always remember
this was hot
it was the middle
of winter time
when I took off
from the United States
it was winter
you land there
and it was like
almost 100 degrees
out and it was
very hot, humid
and the most horrible
smell was floating
in the air
we get hustled
into one
Quonson Hut area
where they're going
to throw us
on a bus
and I asked one
of the guys
who had been there
for a while
I said hey man
what's that smell
he goes hey
he said that's
burning flesh
you're smelling
human flesh
burnt flesh
that's been going on
because they just
napalmed right outside
the gates of Benoit Air Base
trying to blow up
Viet Cong
supposedly Viet Cong
were operating in the area
and you could smell
the burnt flesh
and I always remember
the American flag
hanging there
and the burnt flesh smell
then they took us
from Benoit Air Base
and they took us
and put us
in a place called Long Bin
it was a main processing area
from there
we were sent out
to the various duties
we were going on
and the same types
of images kept coming
you see the American flag
was everywhere there too
flapping above
all this stuff
and I was pretty scared
on it
but I started seeing
a lot of the other soldiers
that were there
the black guys
the white guys
all these guys
people wearing peace symbols
and stuff
and I said hey well
that's pretty interesting man
what are you guys
wearing peace symbols for
and I still wasn't
I was still pretty scared
they transferred me
to my base camp
it was a small base camp
called Long Thon
and I get on my base camp
and my duty
I was assigned
to his
I ended up
in a security platoon
doing short range patrols
that type of number
guard duty
short range patrols
and my platoon sergeant
he was a black dude
from the bay area
he basically said
listen man
he says
we ain't here
to kill no Viet Cong
we're here to survive
he says
if you want to be gung ho
he says
you're going to die quick
I said hey man
not me
I'm scared
I just go with the flow
on this stuff
and pretty much
most of the guys
involved
in my whole camp
there
people were pretty much
anti-war
it struck me
at first it struck me
kind of
wow this is
you know
I got into it
but at first I said
wait what the hell
is going on here
and everybody
when you see the massive
amounts of destruction
that went on
in that country
the massive B-52 runs
where whole villages
and towns
and whole areas
of the country
were totally destroyed
you had
Agent Orange
was dumped
all over the place
most of the areas
a lot of it
was completely inhabitable
where you couldn't even
nothing could grow
on it or anything
like that
and you could see
all of this stuff
there was what
our country was doing
to these people
over there
the Viet Cong
in my area
in my camp
we hired
what they call
Haas girls
we hired them
we picked them up
in the local village
and brought them
on our camp
during the daytime
and these girls
were basically hired
each guy paid
five bucks a month
and what they did
was they did your
laundry for you
and that type of
whole thing
and I can always
remember when I come
back
we come back
from night patrol
one day
when we went on patrol
we called it
you're supposed to be
on search and destroy
missions
we called it
search and avoid
we'd go out
in one part
in a rubber plantation
sit down for eight hours
smoke pot
and come back
again at the end
of the day
but one day
we came back in
and the Haas girls
were sitting
this was in August
of 69
and the Haas girls
were sitting there
crying
and I didn't know
what was going on
I thought maybe
one of the guys
was playing grab ass
with them
or something like that
because generally
we had a good rapport
with the women
and nobody was
screwing around
with them
and you had just
like a friendly
type of relationship
with them
and they were
crying and crying
I couldn't figure out
what was going on
so then
what happened was
I finally got one girl
to talk to me
and I said
what are you crying
she says
Ho Chi Minh died
I said Ho Chi Minh
he's just a communist
what are you crying about
she goes
you don't understand
Ho Chi Minh
is the father
of our country
and she tells me
this whole history
she knew more
about American history
than I did
she says
in your country
when you had
your revolution
you only had
one third of your people
were back in the revolution
one third were in the middle
and didn't care
who won it
and one third
back to British
she says
in our country
we got 75%
of the population
that's back in the revolution
kicking out foreign powers
and that really struck me
hard on that deal
and anyway
I'm going on an honest thing
but I'll just tell you
this is
my lessons that was learned
in Vietnam
was heavy duty
the stuff that happened
to the people over there
and the massive destruction
and everything else
that happened
when I come back
from Vietnam
I was stationed
at Fort McClung
because I still had
almost 14 months
to do
before I got out
of the army
and I was stationed
in the army there
and on these bases
in the stateside
there was a massive
GI movement form
there was like
over 300
300 underground newspapers
being published
by soldiers
all around
all around the United States
in Europe
and in Asia
at that time
anti-war newspapers
published by soldiers
and I joined right in
with that
and immediately
the army was
doing everything
they could
to stop us
from speaking out
threatening us
with jail
we were not allowed
to have newspapers
on us
anything like that
constantly being called
in for interrogation
I always remember
being called in
for interrogation
by military intelligence
and the American flag
is waving right above there
and they're saying
you can't do this
and you can't say that
and you can't write this
and you can't do that
constantly saying
you can't do all this stuff
I get out of the yard
I went through that whole scene
my 14 months
and I became very much
more involved
in the whole anti-war movement
while I was still in the army
when I got out of the army
I always remember
very distinctly
the American flag
I joined this organization
Vietnam Veterans Against the War
there was literally
almost 80,000 members
at this time
in 1971
you had
veterans had thrown
their medals away
back at the White House
2,000 veterans
gathered in April of 71
and massively
in front of the White House
and threw back
their war medals
and everything else
in disgust
with what the U.S.
was doing in Vietnam
and demanding
an end to the war
and we marched
in New York City
there was what they called
a home with honor parade
Richard Nixon
was the president
at that time
and he called
for a home
home with honor parade
in which veterans
to honor the Vietnam veterans
it was a huge parade
they brought in
all these military units
they brought in
army units
you know
Navy
Marine Corps
all this type of stuff
to march
in this big huge parade
the only
plus the American Legion
the VFW
and a lot of World War II vets
the only Vietnam veterans
that marched
in that parade
as a political grouping
was this organization
Vietnam Veterans Against the War
now we marched
up 5th Avenue
up to 72nd Street
where there was a reviewing stand
and as we marched up there
all the people
crying along the streets
were cheering
us Vietnam veterans
we had in front of
our main banner
a huge banner
we carried
leading this contingent
it was no honor
no honor here
no honor there
no honor what we did
in Vietnam
and we were
cheering and cheering
a lot of cheers
of people
giving us the fist
and high sign
and everything like that
until we got to
the reviewing stand
up by the reviewing stand
there were several hundred
people there
waving the American flag
and these people
were leaning over
and spitting on us
I was literally
insulted and spit on
by these people
waving the goddamn flag
and I always remember that
nobody can ever change
that in my mind
I know what that flag was
and these people
were waving that thing
and spitting on us
because we were anti-war
and all the officers
and dignitaires
on the reviewing stand
turned around
and did an about face on us
they turned their back
to us on a thing
and we understood
what they might do
but when you had
all these people
in a population
waving the flag
and spitting on us
that type of thing
stuck in my memory
and so when people
ask me why I burnt
the flag
that was part of it
it was those experiences
that I went through
from being in basic training
being in Vietnam
after Vietnam
and as an anti-war veteran
out there
and then I look around
and I see nowadays
since that whole time period
I've had the flag
come down on me
I got a job
in a post office
in the mid-70s
and we had a strike
in 1978
and all of a sudden
the government says
you're not allowed
to have a strike
it's illegal
for postal workers
to strike
like it is pulling
I guess Polish workers
can't strike either
and they brought out
the federal marshals
come and kick down
the door of my house
one night
to try to serve
arrest warrants on us
because I was one
of the strike leaders
in the place
and it was a whole
heavy duty number
and all those people
the federal marshals
and all of them
all wearing the American flag
again
so when people talk
about constitutional rights
and freedoms
I know that the American flag
does not stand for that
the American flag
stands for suppression
of people
where I grew up
in western Pennsylvania
the area out there
I still got family
friends that live out there
right now you've got
a strike going on
in the Pittston Coal Company
it's been on strike
for eight months
and it's a state
of martial law
in that whole area
of Virginia
thousands and thousands
of people
have been arrested
under these laws
they're not allowed
to even drive
in certain areas
everything is under
martial law
and there's federal marshals
and they're wearing the flag
the flag is standing
over all the suppression
that's happening there
in New Brunswick
New Jersey
just recently
for the black people
living in the ghettos
the flag stands
for more repression
and stuff there
under the guise
of war on drugs
you have local police
drug task force
smashing down
the whole top floor
of an apartment
this was about
two or three months ago
went through
all these huge
big buildings
where people
were forced to live in
the whole top floor
they kicked down
all the apartments
they found two joints
out of like
40 apartment doors
they kicked down
but they terrorizing
people all over
the place
under the guise
of this war
on drugs
they're going
and they have
armed police
running around
all the time
beating the shit
out of people
everything like that
is happening
so to me
that's why
I burnt the flag
I burnt the flag
for what it stands for
and I burnt the flag
because I think
people got to be
opening their minds
up to what's
happening in America
today
when the government
come out
and try to force
patriotism
down people's throat
something is seriously
wrong there
and you better
examine it carefully
that's all I got to say
the eastern world
it is exploding
violence flaring
bullets loading
you're old enough
to kill
but not for voting
you don't believe in war
but what's that gun
you're toting
and even the Jordan River
has bodies floating
but you tell me
over and over
and over again
my friend
ah you don't believe
we're on the eve
of destruction
don't you understand
what I'm trying to say
can't you feel the fears
I'm feeling today
if the button is pushed
there's no running away
there'll be no one
to save
with a world
in a grave
take a look
around you boy
it's bound to scare you boy
and you
tell me
over and over
and over again
my friend
ah you don't believe
we're on the eve
of destruction
yeah my blood's so mad
feels like coagulating
I'm sitting here
just contemplating
I can't twist the truth
it knows no regulation
handful of senators
don't pass legislation
and marches alone
can't bring integration
when human respect
is disintegrating
this whole crazy world
is just too frustrating
and you
tell me
over and over
and over again
my friend
ah you don't believe
we're on the eve
of destruction
think of all the hate
there is in red china
then take a look around
to Selma, Alabama
ah you may leave here
for four days in space
but when you return
it's the same old place
the pounding of the drums
the pride and disgrace
you can bury your dead
but don't leave a trace
hate your next door neighbor
but don't forget
to say grace
and tell me
over and over
and over
and over again
my friend
you don't believe
we're on the eve
of destruction
no no
you don't believe
we're on the eve
of destruction
first of all sir
what is your principal criticism
of the way that we have conducted
our war in Korea
it's my opinion that
we should
fight the war to win
in Korea
rather than
try to settle
at the diplomatic table
which is impossible
when you're dealing
with Russia
well Mr. Van Zandt
would you extend
your will to win
so far
as to include
the atomic bomb
very definitely
Dr. Peterson
I've always been
a firm believer
that we should use
the atomic bomb
not only in Korea
but north of the
Yalu River
in Manchuria
I think that
there are several targets
in northern Korea
we could use
that is we could destroy
them with the atomic bomb
we could destroy them
and contaminate them
there will soon be an end
to this cold and wicked war
when those hard-headed
communists
get what they're looking for
only one thing
that will stop them
and they're a ferocious fund
if General MacArthur
drops of atomic bombs
now over in Korea
our boys have fought
to fail
but they died
just like heroes
and bit them
in a shot and shield
they had their
hands tied behind them
and were murdered
by the score
by those dirty-minded
communists
who started this sad war
there'll be fire
just in the middle
flying all around
and radio activity
will turn into the ground
if there's any commies left
they'll be all on the run
if General MacArthur
drops a atomic bomb
old hard-headed Joe
will be feeling mighty blue
when he finds out
he's bitten off
more than he can chew
for the pressure
will be ended
and the job
will be well done
if General MacArthur
drops a atomic bomb
Oh, MacArthur has the power
to stop those murderous things
and he'll make them sorry
for their underhanded schemes
just leave it to the General
for it really has the nerve
to give those no-good communists
just what they deserve
there'll be fire, dust, and metal
flying all around
and radio
many commies left
they'll be all on the run
if General MacArthur
drops a atomic bomb
And that's in the name
of American patriotism there.
That was Jackie Dole
and his Pickled Peppers
recorded in 1951, thereabouts,
when they dropped the atomic bomb.
It comes from a compilation
of such songs,
the soundtrack to Atomic Cafe,
and I always thought
that was both a terrific film
and a terrific record
for one reason
for one very good reason
there was never
any person on there
narrating, saying
these people are wrong
instead they just let them
say it themselves
they let them
spout their rhetoric
and now
30 or so years later
40 years later
we can see
at least some of us
can see that these people
were crazy
wanting to drop
atomic bombs everywhere.
I mean, yeah,
I know there's people
around today
that still want to do that
but I think for the most part
we realize
that's just not
the righteous thing to do
when you look upon
the entire world
as a community.
and fortunately
Truman won that battle
with his commanding general
Douglas MacArthur
for those that aren't versed
or for those that just want
to remember
in 1950
the Korean War
wasn't going all that well
for the Allies
and a lot of Americans
wanted to drop
the atom bomb
on North Korea
and on China
for that matter.
Why not?
I mean, it worked in Japan
to stop that war
so it could work anywhere.
You know?
Maybe even if we have
some skirmishes
with students
or minorities
in this country
just as a warning.
But MacArthur
wanted to use
the atomic bomb
and Truman
didn't want to use
the atomic bomb
so the story goes
and of course
MacArthur was
eventually dumped
by Truman
and that's the way
it wound up.
We also heard
from Barry McGuire
and
the Eve of Destruction
which
kind of put into music
some of the things
that Dave Blalock
was saying beforehand.
Dave Blalock
who had given a speech
at the State University
of New York
at Stony Brook
this past Sunday
as to why
he burned
the American flag
and why
he will continue
to burn
the American flag
despite the
law that was passed
on October 28th
saying that
that is
in fact
a crime.
and we're going
to take phone calls
now
for the next
period
279-3400
area code
212
and I'd like to know
what people out there
have to think.
No long speeches
please
just a general
overview
as to whether
or not
this whole thing
is being blown
way out of proportion
and as I said
before
I'd like especially
to hear from people
that think
you know
think other things
than what
what I'm saying here
you know
if you want to
perhaps bring up
some points
that I might have
missed
or something like that
212-279-3400
is our telephone number
and this piece
from the same newsletter
I was looking at before
on November 29th
seven people
were indicted
in Seattle
for their participation
in the festival of defiance
where flags were burned
the moment
the flag law
went into effect
this event
was beamed out
over the national media
where millions
saw 500 people
led by Vietnam veterans
against the war
anti-imperialist
in parentheses
that's what the AI
stands for
when they saw
the Vietnam veterans
against the war
and 500 people
symbolically napalm
1,000 flags
at midnight
on October 28th
one national evening
news broadcast
stated
last night
those who once
fought for the flag
burned it
this open defiance
of the flag law
and especially
the role of veterans
poked a big hole
in the lie
that blind obedience
to country
is the order of the day
in the USA
again our phone number
I'm surprised
by the small number
of calls we're getting here
I thought this was
a major issue
279-3400
call us now
regardless of your opinion
just call us
to tell us
how you feel
about this issue
if it affects you at all
if there's a bigger picture
it might
it might paint
for the rest of the country
or for other countries
anyway
none of the seven
charged with Vietnam veterans
even though Randy Roland
of VVAW
had announced to the press
that he was defying the law
and had personally
begun the flag burning
another case of selective
non-prosecution
it seems that the government
wants to avoid the truth
that many veterans
oppose mandatory patriotism
because of their experiences
with where it can lead
the seven indictees
have been charged
under the flag law
and also
with destruction
of government property
this stems from the
now famous photo
of the demonstrators
running a burning flag
up a post office flagpole
four of the seven
haven't even been identified yet
except for videos
taken by the police
three John Does
and one Jane Doe
are at large
and the concept
that we are all
Jane slash John Doe
is spreading
at a press conference
immediately after the indictments
all the speakers wore
I.M. Jane
slash John Doe armbands
motions in the case
are due December 21st
and a trial date
has been set
for February 5th
progressive lawyers
in Seattle
have rushed to the defense
and will be appealing
based on the
unconstitutionality
of the flag law
again this is from
the newsletter
of the emergency committee
to stop the flag amendment
and laws
and whether you agree
with them or not
as to exactly
what they say
as far as imperialist
and this and that
I think the issue
is a bit bigger
than that
and I know
a lot of people
even conservatives
yes I do
talk to conservatives
now and then
who think that
this is a very
dangerous precedent
to be setting
what do you think
279-3400
good morning
WBAI
that's what it is
you're on the air
go ahead
oh
yeah
I was kind of
wondering
I was thinking
about this whole thing
you know
I was in Vietnam
I was with
101st Airborne Division
that was a long time ago
and most of what
that guy said
is pretty accurate
I guess
but about burning
the flag
I mean
like the flag
is like a symbol
it's kind of like
an idea
and you can't
burn an idea
you can burn
the material
you can't really
burn the flag
I mean
I don't see why
you know
well like you said
it's a symbol
yeah
and burning the flag
is a symbol
in itself
well that's true
I suppose
that's another symbol
yeah
so why do you think
people are so incensed
or maybe people
are incensed
maybe it's just
the politicians
that are getting
in a flurry
about this
what do you think
it is
what sparked this
why are we so desperate
and why do you think
we need to do this
oh
well I think
that we've become
you know
we're just
people are just
holding on
to their beliefs
because everything
is getting eroded
anyway
I mean
it's just
they've just
become sort of
desperate
what's becoming
eroded
oh
I don't know
it's you know
after
after Vietnam
I went
I went to Europe
and stayed there
for about
for about 12 years
I just was sort of
disgusted with
the government
and
you know
society in general
and
I just
you know
I just didn't
believe anything
anymore
and
I don't know
so
do you think
this is a
dangerous precedent
do you think
it's going to make
any significant
difference
no
I don't
I really don't
think it means
anything at all
I think it's
so stupid
what the whole
furor over the
issue
or the issue
itself
the issue
itself
I think it's
stupid
do you think
there should
have been
a law
in the first
place
I don't
really
you know
it's kind
of
for me
it's kind
of amusing
well yeah
and that's
you touch upon
an important
point there
never lose sight
of the humor
in a situation
there's no point
getting all
poker faced
about it
I mean
we can have
a lot of
fun with
this issue
we can make
fools of the
people that
disagree with
us one way
or the other
it's you know
let's at least
approach it
in that way
I mean
yes it's a
serious issue
but you know
let's not
get so
serious about
it that we
lose sight
of the rest
of our lives
and I know
some people
have done
that already
the guy
who made
that speech
I think
he has
a point
and that
is that
the flag
doesn't represent
what it used
to represent
I mean
and I don't
know
you know
he goes
to Vietnam
he sees
these flags
and the
stinking
smell
of the
flesh
and everything
you know
it's just
you know
we're brainwashed
in school
you know
in our early
years
to believe
one thing
and then
we find out
it's not that
at all
yeah well
you know
look at it
this way
I mean
maybe when
you say
we're brainwashed
in school
that might
turn off
some people
but look
at it
in another
way
you go
to school
when you're
what
four or five
years old
and you say
the pledge
of allegiance
no I didn't
know what
the hell
the pledge
of allegiance
meant I just
said it
because I was
supposed to
say it
and how
can they
expect any
four or five
year old
kid to know
what the pledge
of allegiance
means
I mean
to really
understand
what it's
all about
so if
there's no
way the
kids can
understand
what it's
all about
why are they
saying it
it's to
get you
in the
habit
and then
by the
time
you know
you reach
an adult
type of
life
you say
what was
that all
about
anyway
it's
a very
subtle
maybe not
such a
subtle
form of
brainwashing
but it's
you know
you know
you just
you know
become
like a
part of
the sheep
right
and you
associate it
with something
good
like you
know
well I guess
maybe school
isn't all that
good for most
people
but you know
something
not harmful
they're not
beating people
while they're
saying the
pledge of
allegiance
so it's
become sort
of incorporated
in your
life as
well you
know
it's that
thing I
did in
childhood
and that's
you know
it's just
saying the
pledge of
allegiance
is what
kids do
and are
we going to
outlaw
something that
kids do
at sick
you know
it's sort
of a
parallel
there
and you
know
I just
don't see
why it's
necessary
if this
is the
greatest
country
in the
earth
you know
as we
keep saying
to ourselves
why do we
need to have
a law
to protect
it from
its own
people
you know
that's
I don't
know
I think
we're the
biggest
country
in the
earth
or one
of the
biggest
well of
course
that's
a matter
of opinion
but it's
something that
is constantly
heaped at
us by
the media
by you know
by the
government
and by
certain
rednecks
and pickup
trucks
but it's
you know
it's something
we should be
asking
and how can
you call
somebody
non-patriotic
for wanting
to talk
about this
wanting to
bring it
you know
to the front
and debate
it
that's
you know
by calling
somebody
anti-american
for that
you are
in fact
being
anti-american
not you
of course
you
you know
in a third
person sense
right
I'm going to
go to some
more calls
thanks for
calling sir
bye-bye
okay
279-3400
good morning
good morning
how are you
tonight
okay
how are you
okay
I think
that this
whole issue
just shows
the general
ignorance
of the public
in our country
in what way
well wait
the fact that
people are
sitting here
and they're
saying how
great america
is
and that
if you're
burning the
flag
then you're
doing such
a terrible
crime to
the country
but in reality
burning the
the whole
thing that
makes america
great
is for people
they can do
whatever they
want to do
and that's
what the
whole flag
stands for
for the
idea that
people have
their freedoms
and their
decisions
do whatever
they want
to do
do whatever
they want
to do
within a
certain amount
of reason
but I see
what you're
saying
it's not
causing harm
to anybody
else
you know
I mean
you can do
basically
I think
there are
a lot
of issues
in america
today
which are
really
sensitive
issues
like the
ku klux klan
and all
these racial
things
when they're
allowed
to have
gatherings
they're allowed
to have
meetings
not for
demonstrations
which is
what a lot
of people
think it
shouldn't
be
but what
makes
america
great
is that
people can
state
their opinion
as long
as it
doesn't
give
direct
to other
people
right
now
you know
I have
to give
credit
to the
aclu
and I'm
sure
this will
get me
in trouble
if I try
running for
president
in a few
years
but I
give them
credit
for actually
standing
behind
a group
as hated
as the
american
nazi
party
to say
they've
got the
right
to
have a
meeting
or a
demonstration
or whatever
they have
that right
as disgusting
as it may
be to many
of us
and you
know
I don't
put the
flag burners
in the same
league
as nazis
but they
certainly
first amendment
rights
no matter
how offensive
it may be
to somebody
else
unless they
physically
harm
or vandalize
something
that doesn't
belong to
them
but as far
as I know
these flags
that they're
burning
are flags
that they've
bought
and paid
for
so they
can do
whatever
they want
with them
exactly
by saying
it's just
a paradox
in itself
you're saying
well
I think
America
is great
because it's
free
but you
can't
do it
if you
want to
you have
to listen
to what
we think
is right
or wrong
we seem
to be
getting more
I don't
know
we're
worried
about
these
things
I don't
know
why we
are
why is
the
government
why are
some of
the citizens
so paranoid
what's the
next step
we outlaw
burning flags
now
what are we
going to
outlaw next
talking about
burning flags
there's a lot
of things
you can read
because burning
a flag is
not the only
way to show
disrespect
for the flag
in fact
we'll get
into that
a little
later
I have a
whole list
here of
ways
for doing
that
and
it's
scary
and I'd
also like
to know
if anyone
out there
has this
information
please call
in with it
how many
other countries
have such
laws
or are there
any kind
of variations
on this
law
I'd like
to know
that
thanks for
calling sir
279-3400
is our phone
number
we're talking
about the
flag burning
here on
WBAI
in New York
good morning
go ahead
hello
Emmanuel
yes hi
how you doing
I think
this whole
flag burning
issue
is a sign
of a country
in decline
where they
start to
make laws
about their
symbols
and things
like that
it's one
thing to have
Iranians burning
flags and everyone
can say oh they're
against America
and so forth
but it's another
thing when
images of
Americans burning
flag in America
are broadcast
to other countries
it shows a
sort of
internal weakness
which I don't
think America
can afford to
have be shown
around the world
well does that
justify our
banning the
action in itself
no it doesn't
justify the
action it's
it's what
they do
to preserve
this image
of greatness
I mean we're
a deader nation
now and
you know you
have homeless
people and
people out of
work and
industry has
fled to the
third world
and so forth
so I think
America is still
holding on to
its notion of
power it has
military power
but as far as
power in other
means in human
terms I think
it has lost
much of that
and that's
something we
really should be
looking at
something I
think that's a
direct result of
all the military
might that we've
built up we've
neglected our
own country
and it's
it is falling
apart to a
degree there's
lots of
potential still
there but
there's not a
significant amount
of people burning
flags in the
streets so maybe
you know in other
parts of the world
they're getting the
wrong picture but
the fact that people
are burning flags
and the fact that
this is an issue
at all I think
we should be
looking at that
not fighting the
symptom but
fighting you know
what could be a
disease
well the most
ironic thing I
saw about this
was during the
presidential election
when George Bush
was in the flag
factory you know
shaking hands with
all these people
and those are
the same people
who he was
who a few months
later he vote
down a race to
pay those same
people an extra
50 cents an hour
you know
right
the irony there
yeah America's
great and all that
but you're still
you know he finds
it hard to give
the you know
people making
minimum wage an
extra dollar 25
or whatever exactly
it was
it's
yeah of course
paradox there
it's it's rather
subtle I mean
yeah you could say
well he had his
reasons for doing
that but the
fact the way
in which it's
done kind of
the the the
subtle contempt
for the working
people and for
the poor certainly
that emanates from
from the Reagan
administration and
from the Bush
administration
that that says
something
yes yes
so so do people
that burn flags
they're saying
something it's a
it's a form of
expression and
you know I
don't I don't
think words should
be banned I
don't think those
kind of demonstrations
should be banned
it's it's sad when
you have to ban
things like that I
mean you know
what what we're
doing is is
resorting to the
same tactics that
those governments
that we call
totalitarian have
been doing for
years you know
saying no public
assembly no
demonstrations no
church meetings or
or protests or
elections or all
kinds of things like
that yeah that's
true and like the
other callers I
too was a veteran
but more recent
times during the
Grenada times and
I I started to
have to question
that you know
why are we
invading a little
country called
Grenada and
that's the reason
why I left the
Marine Corps
because my
politics changed
I don't think you
can be politically
minded and be in
the military there
was just too much
conflict there
no it's it's like
I know lots of
people that get
involved with the
phone company and
you can't think and
work for the phone
company because they
don't want people to
ask a lot of
questions you know
it's the same thing
in the military they
don't want you to
ask a lot of
questions until they
get all the
information into you
and then you know
then you go out
you're sent out and
you're all programmed
and you can
exactly I know lots
of people it's funny
I know lots of
people that have
gone into the
military and you
know perhaps this
isn't such a bad
thing for them but
they're they're kind
of stupid when they
go in in fact
sometimes they're
very stupid when
they go in and
there's really you
know nothing much
for them in our
society to do except
you know hang out in
street corners and
things and then they
come back from the
military after a
couple of years and
suddenly they're
well-spoken they can
actually put a
sentence together of
course what they're
saying is something
enough to make me
want to run away but
they say it well you
know and that's it's
it's something it's a
credit to the tactics
of the military not to
what they are actually
doing but what they do
does work
oh yes well I was one of
the fortunate ones I did
manage to get some very
technical training while I
was in the military but I
would like you know 10% of
the whole bunch but it is
true that the military does
broaden your horizons cause
when there's someone in the
White House who's who's
asleep most of the time can
send you off to your death
you you kind of have to be
aware of things and you
know be aware of what's
going on in the world and
be very analytical of the
political scene how hard
was it to be a thinking
person in the military
very hard you you end up
contradicting a lot of
people who outrank you and
get on this
can you can you can you
perhaps give me a specific
example just maybe a horror
story or something nice like
that
well one story was I was in
a unit that did coordination
for medical evacuations and
and I had suggested to
them that since the the
military radios was not
serving the purpose that
they that they that it was
intended for that we have a
commercially made radio put
in and then we'd be able to
contact the various units with
this better quality commercial
radio well that didn't happen
until I think about six or
eight people fell out of a
helicopter and we could not
get to them because there was
no communications available and
the next day there was a radio
there they had it installed and
everything the next day why why
was there no radio before
well they just didn't we we
told our superiors hey we need
a radio of this particular type
and it went from there I never
heard anything about it until
this incident happened and they
were ready to come down on us but
luckily we had tape to back us up
we made the calls out and no one
responded cause no one could get in
touch with us but I don't
understand why would it be
military policy not to have a
radio how would that be looked
upon have a radio but it was a
military type radio the type but
it was made by Collins military
radio communications division and
it wasn't worth the money you are
oh I see for it so I sort of like
the commercial radio good
commercial radio which could you
know communications properly it's
sort of like those those East
European devices that don't work
and you know people suggest getting
Western European devices
no this was made in America
yes but I'm talking about the you
know the government wants to use
something that's inefficient and
isn't working but they want to use
it anyway to save face yeah and you
know obviously the other one works
better but they just try to ignore
that yeah yeah well I think the thing
that really clenched it was one of the
people that died was a senior
officer I think like a colonel or a
brigadier general that's why they
move so fast on it and there been
some enlisted people I don't think
they would have jumped as hard on it
as they did but you know someone who
had some juice was pretty pissed and
that's why they jumped on it like
that that just goes to show if you're
if you don't worth much they just
you're just cannon fodder as they say
okay so the wrap-ups are your your
thoughts on the whole flag controversy
were it's all a ruse it's all a ruse
we're moving into like a 1984
scenario George well type thing and
you know double think and double speak
and all the rest of it we're running
after false issues well you sure got to
be careful what you say and a double
think is a is a good analogy for a
politician today because he may feel
one thing but if he says it even
though it it's in perfect alignment
with with democracy and with the
Constitution everything like that
he'll he'll wish that he hadn't said
it because it's so easy to turn the
words around and say that means you're
not patriotic and when you're not
patriotic you get voted out of office
but I think we need we need a few
politicians to stand up and say that's
crap you know that's that that's not
it at all I'm as patriotic as you and
that's that's the major thing I
disagree with the these particular
flag burners on I was talking to a
bunch of them before the the lecture on
Sunday and one thing I was asking them
was you know why don't you take the
flag as your own instead of giving it
to these these people waving flags on
the side and spitting on you you're
every bit as American as as as they
are you know why when when when they
when the Czechs were marching two
weeks ago you saw flags everywhere
Czechoslovakian flags because it's
their country it's their flag they they
can wave the flag if they want and so
can people demonstrating against the
policies they're every bit as American
as as people that that support the
policies that's true of course if you
burn the flag I guess you're sort of
saying you know to hell with that but
yeah but the idea is still there you
know yeah but but they're getting
democracy and liberation all that yeah
they have the right to to wave the
flag then and and I would too if if
that was occurring but it's not you
know you're in you're in jeopardy of
losing your job and the economy is
going down and hey what's what's to
wave the flag about tell me well
things are not going great it's so the
Russians are are friends with America
now but that doesn't really affect my
life you see I'm not very much in
favor of waving any kind of flag
because of all the you know the
garbage that's come out of doing that
in the past not just in this country
but all over the place I mean you can
get shot dead in Israel for waving a
Palestinian flag what what kind of
nonsense is that anyway you know it's a
it's a symbol it's a symbol and if if
waving a symbol poses that much of a
threat and then perhaps you better start
thinking why you're in power in the
first place yeah it's a it's a sad
state of affairs and when you start
taking symbols too seriously you lose
sight of the realities what the symbols
stand for you just sort of forget about
those and get it you know it's like
being drunk or something and that's
that's what I think is going on we're
drunk on patriotism and nationalism and
I think we're better than that and if
anything you know the flag or just the
you know the premise of the country
holds some hope because it's possible
for us to to shake this off but you know
it's not going to happen if if we don't
do it you know yeah that's that's my
thought on it one thing I want to ask
you about though not related on the last
show that you were on you dealt with the
El Salvador issue you played some music
at the beginning of the program I think
it was some Jamaican reggae music can
you give me the name of the group for the
that was I'm glad you brought that up
that was Mikey Dread Mikey Dread yeah it
was a record called Roots and Culture
actually I played the the B side of that
which was called Jungle Dread if you can
find that record my hats off to you but
I don't think you will it's it's from
Dread at the Controls what Dread at the
Controls I believe is the name of the
record company although it might be I might
be wrong on that but go to go to Utica
Avenue in Brooklyn and wander around the
reggae stores there I'm sure you might
might find that but I'm especially glad
you brought that up because there was
another record I played that a lot of
people were asking about later on in the
show called Christianity is stupid
communism is good now you know that's you
can interpret that any way you want but
that was by a band called Negative Land and
that was there not the album that's that's
in the process of coming out which I
understand they're being sued for so it
must be a really good one but the one
that was out about a year or so ago so
that was that for all those people that
were asking anyway thanks for calling
sir are you going to become a regular on
on BAI well I'll be filling in I'll be
filling in for Tom Whisker next week too
and after that after that we don't know
but you know hopefully I'll be appearing
someplace on on the WBAI schedule okay
take care thanks for calling it's about
13 minutes after 12 o'clock this is
Emmanuel Goldstein filling in for Tom
whisker and I like to take a look at
something here and again you can
interpret this any way you want but it's
an interesting parallel it was brought up
by the folks that put out this
newsletter and again they are the
emergency committee to stop the flag
amendment and laws located at 189
Franklin Street in New York and their
phone number is 941-5474 area code
212 if you like to get more information
from them they printed a little thing
from 1932 Germany it's a quotation from
the statutory criminal law of Germany
written on December 19th 1932 and this is
what it says whoever publicly profanes the
Reich or one of the states incorporated
into it its constitution colors or flag or
the German armed forces or maliciously and
with premeditation exposes them to contempt
shall be punished by imprisonment and then
right next to it they have the flag
protection act of 1989 in the United
States whoever knowingly mutilates
defaces physically defiles burns
maintains on the floor or ground or
tramples upon any flag of the United
States shall be fined under this title or
imprisoned for not more than one year or
both I realize legal mumbo-jumbo tends to
be similar no matter what language you're
speaking in but look where one of those
things led I mean that was 1932 and you
have to wonder why would they feel so
compelled to to make a law to protect
these things perhaps defensive states rise to
do indefensible things also I'm curious as
to those folks that support this that's
why I really like to hear from them I
wonder where they are I'm not gonna jump
on them they're probably gonna jump on me
but I would like to you know hear some some
logic other logic to today it's it's flag
burning okay listen to this to this
German law it's not just flag burning
it's anyone who publicly profanes the
Reich and in our case it would be the
country in any form or one of the states
incorporated into it New York New Jersey
that kind of thing it's Constitution okay
is it legal to burn the Constitution is it
legal to you know to expose them to
contempt okay the German Armed Forces here
the American Armed Forces can we can we
say horrible things about the American
Armed Forces sure we can we can say what
we want about them that's like we can say
what we want about anything but as you
can see they had no trouble at all
wrapping this all up into one neat law
flags colors Constitution Armed Forces
states the country itself so how close do
you think we are to that and with those
people that support the ban on flag
burning would they support a ban on
Constitution bashing or a military
bashing or general discontent with the
country see it's a it's a dangerous
ground and I'm I'm really kind of worried
about the whole thing because I just
wonder where it's gonna lead and why do
we need it that's the big question why do
we need it our number is two seven nine
three four hundred we're gonna take a
couple more calls then we're gonna go
into the Joey Johnson speech which was
also recorded this past Sunday at
Stony Brook and Joey Johnson for those
that don't know is the person that
started this whole mess yes he's the one
that the Supreme Court had a ruling on
over the summer and the Supreme Court
agreed with them the Supreme Court said
what Joey Johnson did was protected
under the First Amendment and when you
don't like something and you're in power
you change the laws and that's that's
pretty much what's happening right now
or what has already happened two
seven nine three four hundred
hmm good morning can you speak up
please yeah hello go ahead yes no the
only thing is that the flag burning
issue seems to me to be more
reminiscent of McCarthyism well that's
it doesn't take long to reach that
conclusion in my opinion but why do you
think so well why because it's really
it's totally irrelevant in terms of the
general public it has no mean effect
though they're influencing politicians
it's just much like prior to the
election they got involved with the
liberalism issue L and now they're
bringing up flag burning it's another
issue and it's kind of indefensible but
it seems that it's more just a ploy just
to basically keep politicians in line a
good way to get votes is to support
something like this control votes
really limits the debate to such an
extent but I mean in terms of an
actual crime it's totally irrelevant
because it really doesn't harm anyone
and such a small fragment of the
population is really affected it's
totally irrelevant to rule against it
it's a great way to control the
population or to limit a debate and
that's really where it's danger lies
there's nothing whatsoever to do with
burning the flag it's really a
question defining patriotism and that's
where it harkens back to McCarthyism do
you think we've learned anything from
that from McCarthyism probably not the
problem is because the media is so
limited in terms of the disseminating
information discussing points of view
that debate itself is so limited in this
country that you really can't have an
intelligent discussion of anything and
the problem is that the political
process being what it is is almost
recalcitrant I mean the problem that
politicians have is really one of
getting re-elected that's true and
that that is a major problem because
that's all they're going to think
about is how to it's it's mass appeal
everything is mass appeal you want the
biggest ratings you want the most votes
well the thing is that you can keep
politicians in line solely by defining
the issues of where patriotism lies
which is totally relevant to the actual
values of patriotism so they basically go
after labels you know somebody's how can I
say you know are you for flag burning
for the death penalty for abortion I mean
the spectrum is so really limited
well you know you can you can get
around that by just saying I'm for
democracy I'm for choice you know and
I'm not for people going around
killing each other well even democracy
has become an aberration because you're
living in a world of doublespeak because
really people don't discuss the meaning
of words they just discuss the words
themselves and that's the problem that
there's a certain how can I say a
distortion of language but there's a
there's almost a a double meaning given
to the word itself you know we talk
about democracy in this country yet they
look what's going on in Eastern Europe
they went out in the streets and they
had a popular referendum in a relatively
short period of time where they were
able to dramatically affect change within
this supposedly affect change within their
governments which is unheard of in this
country right and I strongly strongly
believe at this point and I couldn't
have said this a year ago that
democracy is much more alive in Eastern
Europe than it is in the United States
no it's probably in this country I hate
to say it but you know if you want to
really examine the work the way to
what democracy is used in this country
you could probably substitute demagoguery
for it and get closer to its actual
meaning but it's all facade that's
really what it comes down to well thanks
for your opinion sir okay all right and
our phone number 279-3400 good morning
hello Emmanuel how are you okay how are
you first of all I want to say really
enjoy your program okay I'm going to
disagree with you but but it's funny
it's one it's one of these things where
I agree with you politically I would say
you know I agree with you but okay now
bear with me I think there's something
sort of cliched and you know please take
this kindly and sort of spar me about
certain things okay you take the movie
atomic cafe now you know I said no it was a good
movie and all that but the thing is the
idea of taking the worst proponents of
something and just putting them up up there
is like if there's something so fat there's a
fast soundness about it um except except
those people weren't the lunatic fringe they
were the ones in power okay but okay okay I'll
tell you what it was specifically you know you
talk about rednecks and pickups trucks you
know uh I mean that's really that's so dated
type of of uh of you know easy rider type of talk and
also I'm really against imprecision in thought for
instance a lot of things become part part of you know code
words like double speaker catch 22 or or or or well again and
they're used imprecisely now the thing is that that that uh uh you're
comparing the fact okay now I'm again I'm again I think the flag law is
ridiculous and I think it was a stupid it was just a uh an attempt by
politicians to jump on a popular bandwagon but I'm also against flag
burning because there's something really strangely ritualistic and and and and
about it you know I am uncomfortable with it I'm comfortable with you know it's
like you know book burning so and the thing is if there's something if you if
you if your body is diseased what do you do burn a picture of yourself I mean it's
like it's like there's something I would suggest you ask joey johnson sometime
about the there you know his you know if his party came to power what would
their stand be on censorship uh they you know they they've had rcp people
marching and anti-censorship things but if you read the literature you
realize that you know you ask if if somebody would allow to to uh say wave a
nazi flag okay but but sir don't you see how that I understand your point but
that's irrelevant because it is irrelevant I'm sorry I'm really sorry I got off of
that no I just want I just want to say what are you going to do if they say no
we're going to impose full censorship are you going to say well because you're
going to impose full censorship that means you can't do this it doesn't matter
what they say I'm for allowing anybody to burn the flag as again the thing is okay
but okay again comparing it okay there's something you know this happens
on wbi a lot they'll they'll take it's like from the small there's you know some
people I think there's something to be said for a certain logic and and and it's
like and I realize okay you take the the nazi the nazi statute and and this
statute and it's like okay saying because this you know this is has similar to this
although if you notice in this process not more than one year you know and who
knows what they could have done to you with that law the thing is because this
this means we're going to to to uh to fascism and also for instance again this is
sort of I'm getting off my chest certain things about like wb in other words they
they they compare Tiananmen Square with Tompkins Square it's like any or and and
any little thing that anything they can take to make a compare this is like that
and I think you know I'm I'm from Chicago and and it's like since I've come to New
York I've listened to a lot of a lot of radio a lot of wbi and a lot of the the uh uh
you know more conservative uh uh stations too you know and it's like it seems there's
an endemic lack of logic there's like this is like that and and it's like you're
another and that that seems to be you know this the things we say to kids you
know about about the logical if people would follow you know laws of logic I
mean in other words it's like the only if for instance if there's a racial
incident and and it seems that the debates always are on how the media covers
something not on the issue itself in other words uh and and and I hear people
say well the New York Times is is right-wing establishment then I saw people
say right New York Times is left-wing uh uh commie radicals or whatever you know
and it's like people they they judge issues on how it's covered in the media rather
than on the facts and the thing is the the flag burning okay I really wish I could
say you know that you know I know you wanted somebody to to oppose you and and
and but I you know I can't say that I'm for the for the uh law or the amendment or
whatever but I think there's something really smarmy in in in the attitude that
that that this is like that you know we're oh we're headed for we're headed for uh uh uh
some kind of orwellian thing because of because of this law that's nonsense well and and and you
know it's it's nonsense and it's like it's like it's like and it's funny this is you know I I was I
was Joey Johnson you know you're getting upset that he's not you know he's not going to be uh uh
prosecuted it seems that we have a generation of revolutionary whiners and I think the difference
between why there's not going to be any revolutions because the old style tough revolutionaries they
went up against the government and you expected to clamp down and you dealt with it and you didn't
whine about it I hear they they whine I mean it's just like it's like it's like it's like this there's
a uh uh uh idea that that uh okay there was a flag wall in relation you know be because somebody
burned it now people are whining about that that about what why even well it's like sir I I have to
I have to agree with you on the whiners I I do see that myself but as far as as far as comparing uh
and and uh taking some some justice and saying well this could lead to that I think that's necessary
you know you have to do that on both ends I think it's quite possible it could lead to it's like
it's like the thing is uh I get upset sometimes when when when uh as a Jew I I do get upset sometimes
when people compare Israeli actions to uh Nazi actions against the Palestinians but then you know
this is where I think you're going to agree with me then I realize well gee you know maybe if the Jews
had thrown some rocks in 1931 or 32 maybe there wouldn't have been a holocaust so maybe but the thing
is uh I think what the Palestinians are doing is is is good but I you know and the thing is because
the simple reason that it might prevent something like like uh uh some kind of terrible thing in the
future the future but but don't say that the Israelis are are I mean I know are are Nazis because
they're they're reacting to in other words when you you you you make it to do an action you got to
expect the government to react in other words in other words in other words unless you're operating
in some kind of total vacuum the thing is that you don't whine about it you know and and you you uh
uh uh give them the you know it's you you have to it has to be look there there is I believe that
there is a possibility to be physically brave and be a moral coward you know but I don't I believe
that that it's impossible to be uh morally brave and also be a physically coward in other words you
can't say I'm morally brave but I'm a physical coward you you have to also be physically brave
but you can be physically brave and also be a moral coward I don't know if that's true though I mean
you're saying that uh that what somebody says is meaningless if they don't survive torture
you know that's that's basically what you're saying no no no please please don't see again
there's such imprecision of thought here that's that's how I read that I'm not saying that's not
what I said I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm saying that if you're going to take a stand you have to
excuse you could bring torture see that's that's what happens it's like it's it's it's the you know
the seven laws of logic that are taught in philosophy 101 are constantly being traveled upon you know
and maybe you just throw them out the window.
You say, this is what happens.
You go from imprisonment to torture.
And I never even said that what they say is wrong.
I'm saying if you choose to take a revolutionary stance,
you've got to know you're going to suffer hardship.
Now, the thing is this.
The thing is this.
The fact that I'm not saying that torture is right,
but I'm not saying that somebody who's been tortured has, you know,
but I'm saying that if somebody gets arrested and put in jail,
okay, that's bad and it shouldn't be,
but there's an element of, again, you're taking countries where they do torture you.
Now, I understand that it's important maybe to nip something in the bud.
In other words, if you complain about being arrested,
maybe that will prevent you from being tortured in the future.
And the thing is that, but don't whine.
Don't whine about it.
I mean, and again, I understand.
I mean, I don't like the Paul Harvey style of radio.
You know, everything is great.
Everything is peachy keen.
And it's the lower classes that are ruining everything.
That's ridiculous.
I mean, the thing is that I think some people, you've got to realize there's a great world out there besides New York.
And this is where the redneck thing comes in.
You know, again, I think there's a real elitism of, you know, especially among WBAI type listeners.
And it's like there's...
But, sir, aren't you generalizing, too, when you say things like that?
No, look, okay.
Maybe I am.
Maybe I am.
That's true.
I'm just...
But I'm pointing out a specific instance.
What if...
Instead of said redneck, what if you said...
I'm trying to think of an equivalent for another minority.
We said coon or something like that.
I mean, what...
You know, there's a lot of...
It's like the old thing about, you know, the South, you know, those prejudices are ridiculous.
It's just dividing people.
In other words, you want to be inclusive, not exclusive, not elitist.
But the thing is just try to...
I think people...
I'm not accusing you of anything except you wanted somebody to make little ways.
Sir, I'm kind of losing you.
Can you kind of wrap up the thoughts here?
Yeah, you're right.
I am digressing.
I really didn't mean to talk this long.
I'm just saying this.
I'm saying don't be such a snob.
In other words, don't realize that there's people who legitimately don't believe what you believe and they're not...
Don't believe it.
Don't believe it.
They 
My question is not to…
It's hard to mention this, I think.
Elizabeth, you tell me this is not to make ... or not to make it bigger than your mind.
God!
Not to be ...
I want to see it's just one inch risk.
What if the car had come of this time because you weren't behind a new line, or maybe you were the second home lane that happened?
For the car waitress to take a bit!
Yeah, we don't want to take it.
We don't want to sit down on your mind.
Not to be ..
Point to ... it.



And, you know, again, I think there's a real elitism of, you know, especially among WBAI-type listeners, and it's like there's...
But, sir, aren't you generalizing, too, when you say things like that?
No, look, okay. Maybe I am. Maybe I am. That's true.
I'm just... But I'm pointing out a specific instance. What if... Instead of said redneck, what if you said... I'm trying to think of an equivalent for another minority.
What if you said coon or something like that? I mean, what... You know, there's a lot of... It's like the old thing about, you know, the South, you know, those prejudices are ridiculous.
It's just dividing people. In other words, you want to be inclusive, not exclusive, not elitist.
The thing is this. Try to... I think people... I'm not accusing you of anything except you wanted somebody to make little ways.
Sir, I'm kind of losing you. Can you kind of wrap up the question?
Yeah, you're right. I am digressing. I really didn't mean to talk this long.
I'm just saying this. I'm saying, don't be such a snob.
In other words, don't realize that there's people who legitimately don't believe what you believe,
and they're not rednecks, and they're not garbage,
and they feel that the law is necessary simply as a reaction to the flag burning.
And don't mock them because their way of thinking hasn't progressed as far as the 21st century.
Right. Well, have I mocked them? I wasn't aware of that.
Well, okay.
I refer to rednecks, but there are rednecks in the world.
Playing that country swing record is really...
There's someone who's really smarmy about it.
Let's use that word for a third time.
Yeah, but that's a fact of history.
Just remember, a way of life is involved...
There's a lot of different things.
And if you pull out one thing and expose it as rotten,
or maybe, you know, it's like...
In other words, a way of life has many different factors.
And there may be good things and bad things, and you should point out the bad things.
But also remember that it also was part of a way of thinking that if you just were to...
All of a sudden, if people were just to pull it out from under people,
that the whole thing would collapse.
You know, try to educate people rather than just be smarmy about it.
Well, okay. You've used that word many times, but...
Yeah, I know, I know, because that's the gist of it.
Okay, well...
Don't be self-righteous. Don't be righteous. Don't be self-righteous.
I'm trying not to be. I'm trying not to be smarmy or anything like that.
I'm saying, I have no qualms that you really...
You just wanted some feedback, and I thought I'd make a few ways there.
Okay. Well, thanks very much for calling.
Okay.
Okay. Our phone number is 279-3400.
And it's just about 25 minutes to 3 o'clock,
and I don't want to wait any longer with the Joey Johnson recording that we have here,
so I want to go straight into that, then we'll come back to the phones.
Again, this recording was made on Sunday evening at the State University of New York at Stony Brook.
Joey Johnson, the infamous flag-burner guy who started this whole thing.
Of course, he didn't start the whole thing, but he was the person that Destiny threw in front of the wheels of justice or whatever,
however you want to make that analogy.
And he spoke at the State University at Stony Brook on Sunday about what he believes in, what it's all about to him,
and I think it deserves a listen, and afterwards we will take some more of your phone calls.
I want to start off by saying October 28th, when this, I guess people have been following it know a little bit like what went down and stuff around this new Federal Flag Protection Act of 1989
that went into effect on October 28th at 12.01 a.m., and it was righteously, I believe, met with mass defiance in a number of places throughout the country.
Hundreds of, in fact, thousands of flags went up in flames.
In Seattle, Washington, the organization that Dave belongs to, the Vietnam Veterans Against the War, Anti-Imperialists,
napalmed a thousand American flags in a demonstration.
And people might have seen that on TV.
They went down to the Federal Post Office, and I saw the clip on the evening news where it showed them bringing down the flag down the pole
and lighting it up and then running it back up the pole.
And I thought that was a great way to, like, put the stars and stripes up.
And, you know, this is extremely significant, I think, what happened, what these Vietnam veterans did,
because I know from the last year around this Supreme Court case, both with Dred Scott Tyler,
the black revolutionary artist in Chicago who put the American flag on the floor in an art installation called
What is the Proper Way to Display the American Flag?
And with my Supreme Court case, there was a real deliberate attempt from the highest levels of government
to try to use these veterans of different imperialist wars that the United States has been engaged in
to try to use them to bash us or to politically encircle and suppress us and to intimidate us
and say that there's all these flag-worshipping veterans out here.
And if you go up against this red, white, and blue madness,
or if you go up against this atmosphere of forced patriotism that we're trying to create,
then we're going to use them.
We're going to mobilize them as a mob to come out and suppress you.
And both Dred Scott and I had received numerous threats from these veterans organizations,
and there was a deliberate mobilization of some of these John Wayne types, some of these Rambos.
These are the veterans that went to Vietnam and enjoyed bombing the villages.
You know, these are the reactionary diehard types that got into the slaughters
that were the standard operating procedure for U.S. imperialism
when they tried to carry out their domination of Vietnam.
These were the people that are proud of the fact that two and a half million Vietnamese
and another million Indo-Chinese were slaughtered in the course of over a decade-long effort
by United States imperialism to bludgeon the Vietnamese people and Indo-Chinese people into submission.
And people like Dave, they don't even really exist.
You know, that's the mindfuck that they're trying to run on people.
Or Dave is one of these people that's having adjustment problems, you know.
He just ain't with it yet.
He hasn't gotten with the whole, you know, Rambo mentality that they're trying to run on people
with their China Beach and their Rambo movies and this, you know,
honor the veteran, you know, so that they can use you again.
Mindfuck that they've been running on people ever since the end of the Vietnam War,
and especially in the last 10 years has been very deliberate, you know,
ideological campaigns from the highest levels of government to run this on people.
So people like Dave ain't even supposed to exist.
So I thought it was great on October 30th, you know,
not only had two days before on October 28th that these vets in Seattle napalmed the American flags,
but when we did the same thing in New York on October 28th,
went out and did a mass flag burning, and we called it an exorcism of forced patriotism,
we couldn't get arrested, you know.
We wanted to get arrested.
We wanted to deliberately defy the law, take us back to the Supreme Court,
you know, show how you can overturn Texas v. Johnson, my original Supreme Court case,
and still try to put your message out to the people of the world that this is the country of freedom of expression,
of political tolerance, that you don't suppress political dissenters.
We wanted to challenge the government of this country to do that, you know.
In fact, the new federal flag law that they passed calls for expediting to the Supreme Court
a first test case that they can get to try to overturn Texas v. Johnson.
So I thought it was great when we went down to Washington, D.C.,
since we couldn't get arrested in New York for defying this law,
we said, well, let's just take it right to the steps of the Capitol.
You know, let's just, like, go right up in their face with it.
So we dressed up like yuppies, Dave, myself, Dred Scott, an artist from Chicago,
and Sean Eichmann, a woman artist and a member of Refuse and Resist from New York.
And we went down to the steps of the Capitol, and we came, we saw, we burned.
You know, we did it again.
And I think it was really great, in particular, that Dave was there,
because it's not like when the newscasters reported the napalming of the thousand American flags in Seattle
that they said, now, wait a minute, we've been lying to you all along
and presenting a distorted or warped picture of the veterans in this country.
You know, we've been telling you that they're all flag worshippers
and they're all intoxicated with this mindless Rambo patriotism,
but we left out a section of the veterans,
these veterans that got radicalized through their whole experience in Vietnam,
these veterans that came to hate the government,
that put them through this patriotic indoctrination from kindergarten to boot camp
and then sent them over there to commit all these mindless slaughters
and then came back hating the government that sent them there to do that.
We've been lying to you.
We haven't told you about these radical veterans.
They didn't do that.
You know, they just had a matter-of-factly report on October 28th
when the vets napalmed the flags in Seattle.
In their words, one newscaster said,
the Federal Flag Protection Act went into effect tonight.
Vietnam veterans burned the flag against forced patriotism,
and there were flag burnings from sea to shining sea.
You know, they just had to report it like that.
So even more, we wanted to go into their face.
We wanted to put it in their face and go right to the steps of the Capitol
and, you know, defy their law.
And that's what we did on October 30th.
And now we've got a brand-new Supreme Court case.
And more than that, we've got, you know, an even stronger basis, I think,
for there to be much greater debate throughout society
about why is the government trying to, like, essentially, like,
force the flag on people.
What is this whole thing, this specter of these comparisons to Nazi Germany
becoming more and more real with a threatening imprisonment
and attacks on people who go up against their national emblem.
I think, you know, yesterday people saw the news, you know,
because I want to speak to what I think is underlying all this
and why it is that they're trying to force the flag on people
and, you know, what it's a sign of.
I think if people saw yesterday on the news in Malta
when Bush and Gorbachev got together for this summit at sea,
it was a very stormy situation in the harbor there.
There's turbulent seas all throughout the Malta harbor.
Winds were gusting and blowing, you know, very intensely.
And I don't know how many people saw the news coverage,
but it was really, you know, somewhat of a dangerous situation
to send a motor launch, you know, out into the water.
But nonetheless, Bush was sent out to the American frigate
or the American destroyer that was sitting in the harbor.
And as you know, Gorbachev was also positioned on a Soviet destroyer.
And it just struck me when I watched this going on in the news, you know,
how deliberately they choreographed these summit meetings
to put forward a certain ideological message, you know.
And I thought the message was with this summit,
like even though the world is an extremely turbulent place right now, you know,
and far from peace breaking out all over the world,
it's very volatile situations in many different parts of the world,
that what they're trying to drive home to people with this summit
is that these two great powers are going to meet here, you know,
at this summit meeting at Malta.
And they're going to control the outcome of things.
It's completely in their hands.
And that what you have is them with their great warships
doing essentially what's referred to in military terms as a stand down, you know,
and them facing off against each other, these two great powers
and the coming together of their minds.
And that's the decisive, you know, question here.
That's the critical thing in terms of how things are going to change in the world.
But, and it was heavy because yet they sent Bush's launch out into these very turbulent seas
and I think actually subjected him to some personal risk
so that this choreography could come off without a hitch, you know.
And I'm sure he got seasick in it.
But I think beyond that, you know, in my view,
there's turbulent seas throughout the world that threaten to disrupt, you know,
their plans for domination and imperialist maneuvering
and advancing the interests of both their empires.
And in my view, I think what's at the bottom of this forced patriotism thing here in the U.S.
is that we live in a sick and dying empire that's desperately clutching at its symbols.
And I want to go back to another bit of imperialist choreography,
which was the Republican National Convention in 1984 when Reagan was being renominated
because that's where all this really began in terms of this particular, you know,
this focused attempt, I think, to rehabilitate the American people to the whole concept of patriotism
because Republican National Convention in 1984 when Reagan was being renominated,
the theme of it was new patriotism, bringing back America prouder, stronger, and greater.
There was red, white, and blue flags, balloons, everything.
The streets were lined with American flags.
I think it was somewhat of an American Nuremberg rally, you know,
trying to rehabilitate the American people to the whole concept of love for the flag,
love for the country, which the rulers of this country had to admit was something that suffered,
a concept that suffered serious damage ever since the end of the Vietnam War.
And this is something that they've had big problems with for a number of years.
And I think the Republican Convention was an attempt to try to reverse those verdicts,
to try to turn the situation around.
And in addition to this theme of new patriotism, if people think back,
well, this was right after the U.S.'s invasion of Grenada,
it was right after the threats against Nicaragua to say uncle or to face the same thing.
It was right after Reagan's little jokes about having outlawed the Soviet Union
and the bombing was going to begin in five minutes.
So it was quite a tense situation in the world,
and I don't think that they were trying to whip up this new patriotism for no reason.
I think it was very conscious and deliberate and calculated.
So the whole point of going to Dallas,
we in the Revolutionary Communist Youth Brigade,
we definitely wanted to be there.
We thought it was our internationalist duty to call out Reagan
and this whole Rambo, America, Uber Allis mentality
that was being pumped out of that convention.
But there was also a number of other youth,
about 150 that were in the demonstration from a lot of different political trends.
And I think the thing that united everyone
was wanting to go up into the face of this whole outpouring
of vicious American chauvinism and nationalism
and challenge it and say that these people don't represent
the thinking of a whole lot of people in this country
because that was the whole point of the convention
to get over with this mandate of the people,
that Reagan had the blessing of all the people in this country
to do whatever heinous crimes or invasions were to follow.
So, you know, what sharper way to do that than to burn the American flag?
You know, I mean, that's what I think was extremely effective about what we did
was that it actually did pierce some of this Rambo,
America, Uber Allis theme and choreography of this convention very effectively.
And the international news media that was assembled there,
the cameramen from Japan, from Italy, from Rome, from Mexico City,
shot it out on the wires.
They trained their cameras on the burning flag remnants on the ground
and it went out over the wires internationally.
You know, this act of burning the American flag, I think,
has international communicatability.
You know, people throughout the world can understand it,
even if they speak different languages or wherever they're at in the world.
You know, this act of burning the flag is not, it's something that people don't understand.
And I think it did convey that within the belly of the beast, so to speak,
there's some people here that hate the madness that this system has brought down on people
throughout the world.
And the other thing about burning the flag in Dallas was you have to look at the fact
that it just isn't something that goes on here,
but it's something that goes on in many parts throughout the world
when people rise up and they want to make a statement of intense hatred
or show their condemnation or their outrage and their anger
and how infuriated they are at the vicious regimes, the death squads,
the brutal dictatorships, the starvation, the famine, the suffering,
that this system of imperialism backs up throughout the world.
When they want to show that and they want to do it vividly,
one of the first things they do, they go out into the streets in a demonstration.
They're going to have an uprising, whether it's the students in Seoul, South Korea,
or people in San Salvador, or people in Peru, or Palestine, or South Africa,
Brazil, or Argentina, or countless places throughout the world
that if I stayed here, it would take me like hours to like run them down.
Egypt, Brazil, Guatemala, Honduras, Haiti, name it.
When people want to go out and they want to make an intense, you know,
a furious statement, their hatred for what this system has done to people
that burn the America flag, you know.
That's the way it is, you know, and that's what I call a thousand points of light, you know.
And I think that this is an excellent situation that not only, you know,
is this going on throughout the world, but that people can see that, like here,
as I say, within the belly of the beast are some people that feel that way.
And I think what the events of the last year have shown,
in particular the last few months, is that these views can become contagious.
Oh, the reactionary attacks that the government is bringing down on the people
has only brought forth more resistance, you know.
It wasn't just myself I, you know, want to bring out that was like burning the flag
on July 4th this past year after the Supreme Court brought down its Webster decision
further restricting women's rights to abortion.
You know, if people think back on July 4th, this past July 4th,
there were women in a number of cities in this country that went out and burned the American flag.
In Boston, Minneapolis, Indianapolis, San Francisco, New York,
and about eight or ten other cities.
Buffalo, I can't remember them all.
And I thought that was great, you know.
And I was thinking about it as I was looking at it.
You know, a lot of these women must be feeling like their so-called,
that July 4th be an Independence Day, that their independence must be pretty vacuous, you know,
pretty meaningless in a country that is on top of all the other degradation
that women are subjected to in this society,
that the state is going to further put these restrictions on their reproductive systems
and tell them, you know, that you're basically going to be a breeder
or control their lives by controlling their reproductive systems.
And I thought it was excellent that these women went out and burned the American flag, you know,
as one expression of their hatred for this.
And I think that you have to see that this American flag is flying over an American nightmare,
an American dream for some, an American nightmare for many more in this country and throughout the world.
And I think that once people get a glimpse of that, you know, once people,
and this is what's happened in the whole course of this last year,
since this case was brought to the Supreme Court,
that there's been greater debate over these questions than any time since the 60s.
And that's an excellent situation, I believe,
that more people are starting to get a glimpse that, yes, this is the flag
that flew over the genocide of Native American people.
This is the flag that was carried by the 7th Cavalry
when they went in to massacre the Sioux Indians at Wounded Knee.
You know, this is the flag that did fly from the stern of slave ships
through the Middle Passage that brought black people here in chains and shackles,
you know, and subjected them to endless repression and suffering
and literally enslavement, you know,
right down to their modern forms of enslavement and captivity in this country today
where they're kept in lockdown in the inner cities of this country in the ghettos
and routinely shot down by the hundreds every year in this country by the police
and it's always called justifiable homicide.
You know, this is the flag that is, like, issued,
it's standard issued to these racist mobs like in Bensonhurst, you know,
that carried it along with their watermelons when they were proud of the murder of Yusuf Hawkins.
This is the flag that is flying over the detention camps,
the internment camps for immigrants who are fleeing these death squads
and fleeing the starvation that the United States is directly responsible for
in Central America and Mexico and now the flag flies over these detention camps,
these concentration camps that are holding them in South Texas.
This is the flag that is flying over, flying over all that.
So I think it's a great thing that in their quest,
in their desperate necessity to try to bring about an atmosphere of patriotic flag worshipping
and forced obedience and forced patriotism and people saluting the flag
and hating who they're told to hate, you know, when they're told to hate them.
You know, that's what I think is the bottom line behind all this forced patriotism
and this fascist flag amendment and this fanaticism with the flag.
I don't think it's just Bush trying to make up for some coup plots that turned into coup flops in Panama.
I think we've got to look a lot deeper in that.
I don't think it's just the demagoguery of some politicians worried about their conservative constituencies
back out in Arkansas.
I think this thing I'm saying about a sick and dying empire desperately clutching at its symbols is real.
And I think that they know that their system is in a severe crisis today
and that they face many challenges throughout the world
and many places that threaten to erupt completely out of control.
And that this thing I'm saying about needing people to hate who they're told to hate
when they're told to hate them,
that if tomorrow the United States decides that the government of El Salvador is just too shaky
despite their 70,000 people that have been massacred by the Salvadoran desquats
directly backed up by the United States,
despite the billions of dollars that have been poured into the regime there
and arming and training it,
that they need to directly send in the United States military troops
to back up that vicious regime.
Or if they decide that they need to invade into Nicaragua
to overthrow the Sandinistas
and to put in a government more subservient to the United States' domination of that region,
then they're the ones that are desperately needing people hating who they're told to hate
when they're told to hate them.
That's the situation they confront.
And I think not just in Central America,
but in many corners of the earth,
in the Middle East,
in South Africa,
in the Philippines,
things threaten to explode completely out of control for them.
And I think they threaten to explode out of control for them
right here in the belly of the beast.
And they need to force a flag on people here now more than ever.
So I think it's an excellent situation that all this is going on
and that they're so weak and that they're so desperate
that they're trying to, you know, as I say, force the flag on people.
And from my standpoint, you know, we want to turn up the heat,
not just on the flag,
but on the whole system of U.S. imperialism that the flag represents.
And tick-tock, tick-tock, time's running out for it.
And I think we need revolution to do away with this system
and all the crimes and all the oppression it brings down on people all over the world.
So that's what I'm shooting for.
Not just, you know, burning the flag,
but for the day we can bring down the empire that the flag represents.
Thank you.
Thank you.
All we're going to do is move forward and if they lock us up, we lock it up
and God gives us the plot to kick off.
Let's go.
Get out of here.
All the world's fighting!
All the world's fighting!
All the world's fighting!
All the world's fighting!
All the world's fighting!
All the world's fighting!
All the world's fighting!
All the world's fighting!
Here we go.
All the world's fighting!
All the world's fighting!
All the world's fighting!
Here it is.
Here we go.
Here it is.
Here it is.
Would you look around you now and tell me what you see?
Faces full of hate and fear, faces full of me.
Do you feel the rumblings as your head comes crumbling down?
Do you know what I mean?
Run, you better run, you know the end is getting near.
Feel the wind of something hot come whistling past your ear.
As they try to get you where it will upset you down.
Now you know what I mean.
Someday you will see how long we've waited for the time.
To show you how we've died to get together with you all.
xt productive director
Old Tiger
Old Tiger
Old Tiger
Old Tiger
Old Tiger
Old Tiger
Old Tiger
Twist and turn your head around
Till everything's unclear
Twist and turn your arm around
Until it is not there
And they'd love to burn you
Oh yeah, please don't turn your ground
Now you know what I mean
Can you look around you now
And tell us what to be
Can you look inside yourself
And tell us what you see
As you feel the rumblings
As your head comes from laying down
And you know what I mean
Someday you will see
How long we've been waiting for the time
To show you how we've done
To get together with you all
To get together with you all
I can tell you all
That's good
To get together
To get up
To get together with you all
To get together with you all
Come on
To get together with you all
And some�만
gotta be
That's fine
I can't look inside
And it's still
Let's coincide with you all
What those things brothers and sisters
Come on
That's disc Philippians
We'll take the time
To get together with you all
And it's the band called
Chicago Transit Authority
who became the band
called Chicago
and put out all kinds of albums
but that was their first one
back in the 60s
and we heard
Prologue August
I'm sorry, Prologue August 29th
1968
followed by Someday also
on that same date
and that was preceded by
and addressed by Joey Johnson
at the State University of New York
at Stony Brook
and he was speaking
about flag burning
what motivated him
to begin this
form of protest
and why he is continuing to do it
to this day
and again our thanks to
the Student Activities Board
at the State University
at Stony Brook
and to WUSB in Stony Brook
for their help
in bringing that to us
here at WBAI in New York
my name is Emmanuel Goldstein
I'm filling in for Tom Whisker
we'll be here for about
another half hour or so
and we're taking your calls
at 279-3400
now there was a piece
not too long ago
in Harper's Magazine
called
When is a Flag Desecrated?
and this is from
Scenarios and Questions
for Anti-Flag Desecration Lawmakers
it's a pamphlet
written by Ken Nalton
and Barbara Bean Nalton
and published in Merrimack, New Hampshire
now this pamphlet lists actions
that could be considered illegal
under the flag burning bill
passed by Congress in October
and part of it was reprinted
in Harper's Magazine
and you should listen up
because if you do one of these things
you could be in a lot of trouble
so take notes
get a pen and pencil
or paper or whatever
and feel free to expand upon
these ideas too
so that we know
that we're not going to break
any laws here
by accident or on purpose
okay
be careful if you do
any of the following
someone makes
good pictures of U.S. flags
one or two-sided
on paper or cloth
by color photography
color photocopy
or a computer
within one of those neat
inkjet printers
and then
publicly tramples
and burns the pictures
okay
let's see
an iconoclast uses
small cloth pictures
of the flag
as handkerchiefs
and distributes
large ones
as blankets
to New York's homeless
yep
desecration of the flag there
how about this
a protester
projects a picture
of a flag
onto a white wall
and then hurls
mud or paint
onto the image
a flag is mounted
over the screen
of a TV set
in a darkened room
and videotapes
are played
clearly visible
depicting the
My Lai Massacre
or the My Lai Massacre
actually
a flag is left
for many months
in strong sunlight
with an area
the shape of a
Nazi swastika
protected from fading
the process
and result
are displayed
or
a magician
burns a flag
and dumps the remnants
into a demonstrably empty can
then pulls an unblemished flag
from the can
an artist
displays an apparently
mutilated flag
consisting in fact
of several intact flags
variously folded
you can see where this is going
an artist displays
a badly mutilated copy
of the flag
in cyan
black and orange
a bright strobe light
creates for viewers
a red, white, and blue
afterimage
a thoroughly
indestructible
metallic flag
is soaked
with a flammable
liquid
and burned
a protester
wall mounts
a large flag
behind cellophane
then paints
or smears
obscenities
on the transparent
covering
how about this
a computer animation
programmer
creates a realistic
video of what
seems to be
a flag burning
to charred shreds
protesters
take flags
to Canada
or to the grounds
of a foreign embassy
mutilate them
and bring them back
dissidents
with video equipment
broadcast live
to the mainland
a flag desecration
taking place
on a private ship
on the high seas
a group of consenting adults
gathers for a private ceremony
of anger and lament
flags are torn
and burned
a mangled flag
is hung
in a private dwelling
in such a way
that it can be seen
from a public sidewalk
with slight
or moderate
or extreme difficulty
someone constructs
an already
desecrated flag
by sewing together
burned fragments
of red, white, and blue cloth
demonstrators burn
bunches of red, white, and blue streamers
copies of the Bill of Rights
maps of the United States
or pictures of Uncle Sam
and finally
an artist uses
a thousand tiny flags
as minute elements
in an obscene picture
all those
could they be
seen as violations
of the flag desecration law
passed in October
again that was from
a pamphlet
called
Scenarios and Questions
for Anti-Flag
Desecration Lawmakers
put out by
Ken Noughton
and Barbara Bean Noughton
of Merrimack, New Hampshire
and it was
printed in
a recent edition
I believe the current edition
of Harper's Magazine
and our thanks to them
for sending that over to us
now there's all kinds
of other ways
as I mentioned before
of having fun with this
and you know
it's
a serious issue
yeah
but that doesn't mean
you can't have fun with it
and
I've come up with lots of
possible scenarios
solutions
I mean
why don't we simply
make it a law
that all flags
be made out of
completely indestructible material
you can't burn it
you can't rip it
you can't destroy it
in any way
it lasts forever
maybe we can make it
nuclear radioactive
of some sort
you know
with a
a 10,000 year
half-life or something
you know
all flags are radioactive
and no one's going to want
to go near it
to touch it in the first place
okay
that could work
or
how about this
you make it so that
the flags are
extremely flammable
in fact
if you
if you light them
they explode in your face
and anyone who tries
is killed instantly
so
you know
not many people
want to do that
or
burning a flag
requires a permit
by the fire marshal
because
it
causes such explosions
and things like that
and the fire marshal
is instructed by the government
never to give such a permit
and therefore
if you burn a flag
you're
in violation
of a fire code
which
not many people will see
as a violation
of democracy
they should come to me first
you know
I have all these solutions
how about this
we simply change
our way of looking at things
and
instead of it being
a form of
of abuse
we make burning the flag
into
the ultimate
show of respect
you patriotic American
you like the flag
go out there
and burn it
and as it's
erupting
in splendid flame
and smoke
you just
think of
the glory
the bombs bursting in air
you know
the raging fires
by old glory
and all that kind of thing
old faithful
I meant to say
I'm sorry
it's just
you change the rules around
so that's
that's
one of my solutions
one of many solutions
that I've
come up with
and I'm surprised
that more imaginative types
have not
secured these
these solutions
so that
this won't
be a problem
what do you think
279-3400
by the way
I just wanted to do
this one thing here
tore out a little piece of paper
from
today's New York Times
doesn't say anything on it
it's completely blank
but
what I'm now doing is
drawing a
rectangle
on it
and up in the little corner there
I'm drawing another little
rectangle
which
I'll put some dots
to represent
stars
okay
and then I'll draw some lines
to represent the stripes
and here I have
a representation
of the American flag
a symbol
if you will
of
of our country
this
piece of paper
that I'm holding
it's not a very
nice looking flag
but nonetheless
what is a flag?
it's a symbol
and this
is a symbol
if I've ever seen one
listen
what have I just done?
are there going to be
police officers
waiting for me now?
have I broken the law?
have I
have I committed
the ultimate sin?
am I being very silly?
I think so
and I think we all
are being a bit silly
if we
if we believe
this kind of nonsense
so how do we
put an end to it?
that's the question I have
279
3400
that's our telephone number
area code
212
what do you think
of the flag burning issue?
do you think it's an issue
at all?
and
how do we
get out of it now
if we have made a mistake?
good morning
hi
hi
good show
thank you
I'm actually against
these flag burners
because
they're just playing
into the hands
of George Bush
and the flag wavers
it's like
if there was no
such thing as
flag burners
George Bush
would have to
hire some people
to do it
well maybe he has
that's a good point
the one who most
wants to see
flags burned
so he can exploit it
it certainly does
help him
doesn't it?
I mean
look
if these people
if Joey Johnson
was not there
I mean
I always suspect
these things
when these horrible
terrorist actions
occur
and this is just
you know
this is just
theory
but
it sure benefits
those in power
when these horrible
things happen
that bring us
all together
and of course
you know
I don't really
believe that
but
it doesn't hurt
to have people
out there
burning flags
so that they
can make
laws like this
and bring us
all together
just like what's
happening in Europe
in a sense
it's the last thing
the Bush administration
especially the Pentagon
wants
they decided to
build the MX
the stealth
the Trident
and they need an excuse
and don't think
they won't find it
it's going to be
kind of hard now
with all these people
rallying for peace
and everything
but I'm sure
you know
it seems like
we're trying to find
another war somewhere
it's not in the
El Salvador
Philippines
we'll find one
we'll just keep looking
also burning the flag
does hurt people
emotionally
if an issue
is made out of it
it shouldn't
but it does
since people
have been conditioned
into believing
that the flag
stands for all
they think is good
burning it
really causes
evolve to our level
of being informed
they don't deserve
to be emotionally
attacked
I don't like to look
at it that way
evolving to our level
but certainly not
seeing it in the same
light that we see it
and that's
they're being cheated
because they're not
being tolerant
and yes
if everybody
or if those
that were offended
simply ignored
the people
that were being
offensive to them
everybody could go
about their business
I mean when someone
is offensive to me
I don't make a federal
case out of it
I try to ignore it
and get on with my life
and you know
if they're doing
something that
violates somebody's
rights
clearly
obviously I'll take
action against that
but
but if you think
it has implications
like you mentioned
freedom of speech
for neo-nazis
is it hurting anyone
do you think
Jewish people
or anyone
hearing neo-nazis
are thinking of
freedom of speech
or the anguish
of their memories
of course
but no one is
forcing them
to listen
and they can just
walk away
and turn their
backs on it
and if it's
you know
but they think
it has implications
about the country
becoming like that
they're going to be
anguished about it
right but
if there are
implications like that
simply banning
the speech
or banning the meeting
is not going to
take those away
you know
they have to
look deeper
you know
and if there is
something seriously
wrong with the country
that makes people
want to burn flags
then obviously
sooner or later
that's going to
have to be addressed
also the flag burners
are not making
their point
if the flag
doesn't stand
for all that's good
why from the flag
burners point of view
does it stand
for all that's bad
that the government
has done
well to them
it does
I can't say
I agree with them
you know
but I do see
I do see a point
in what they're saying
but the flag waivers
are not getting
the message
obviously not
they think
it's just a contradiction
to what they believe
in all that's good
they're not understanding
that these flag burners
are saying
that the country
has done
some bad things
to see them
as the opposite
of what they believe in
and in a very big sense
it makes things
a lot harder
for people
that don't burn flags
but do criticize
the government
to continue doing so
because then they're
looked upon
in the same light
but in a sense
perhaps this is something
that we have to go through
to re-examine
our values a bit
I just think
these flag burners
are too self-righteous
even though they're
probably correct
on the individual issues
they bring up
and they're unfeeling
but again
as I said to the other caller
that's not relevant
to the issue
it's a question
of do they have
the right
or don't they?
Do they have the right?
No.
What do you think?
Do they have the right?
Well if they really believe
that if they really
don't want people
to burn flags
I think the worst thing
they could have done
was made a law
because it would have
been isolated
if they hadn't.
I mean we would have
forgotten about this
already you know
a week afterwards
we would have
forgotten about it
and people aren't
exactly rushing out
to the stores
to buy flags
to burn them
I haven't noticed that.
It was simply
George Bush's
campaign thing
he needed people
and he knew
that most people
would rally around him
and it's gotten
way out of hand
and it's wasted
a lot of time
and money
and we should be
talking about
more important things
I realize that
but this is something
that you know
if unchecked
it could lead
to a lot more
and I hope it doesn't
but it could.
Okay thank you
it's a great show
thanks for calling
Okay bye
Good morning
Hello
How you doing?
Yes I had to comment
on this flag business
Go ahead
Am I on the air yet?
Yes you are
First of all
about Joe Schmoe
that I was just talking
people have the right
to do whatever
it's a piece of cloth
why can't they burn it?
I don't understand this
So
what I think is
everybody has the right
to do what they want
out there
and I think that guy
doesn't know
what he's talking about
Well I don't think
he was disagreeing
with that so much
He was just raising
some more issues
about the motives
of the people
that were burning
the flags
Now who are these
people that were
burning the flags
that he said?
Well we've been
airing some speeches
by some Vietnam
veterans against the war
Dave Blalock
and Joey Johnson
and Joey Johnson
was the person
that originally
started this whole
Supreme Court action
it was his case
that was ruled upon
this past summer
and the Supreme Court
in fact had agreed
with him
and that's what
started this whole
controversy
So
there are other people
I'm sure
that burn flags
but those are
the most famous ones
I'm in a neighborhood
and I've seen
a couple of kids
burning a flag
and a bunch of blacks
went and beat them up
So
and I think
that was
What does that
tell you?
What does that tell me?
I think
well
I think it was
wrong and right
I don't think
the guy should have
beat them up
I think
they should have
asked them
why they were
burning the flag
and
so I went over
there and tried
to talk to the guys
but
they almost
beat me up too
so
They did or
they were going to?
They were going to
yeah
I was going to try
and stop them
and everything
but
they weren't listening
so I think
so I think
a lot of blacks
are not into
that flag
business
you know
burning the flags
well I don't
you know
I think
it crosses
racial and
religious lines
you know
nationalism
is not something
that's confined
to one group
of people
you know
and
it might seem
strange to some
people that
minority groups
would be patriotic
or nationalistic
but
I don't find
that strange
you know
you have to
look at situations
like that
and say
you know
who was
who was wrong
there
I mean
when someone
uses physical
force to make
their point
I think
they've
automatically
forfeited
whatever it is
they were trying
to prove
because once
you resort
to that
you know
why
why must
you resort
to that
you ever
wonder
you know
it's because
you can't
put it into
words
and it's not
because it's
something so
magical and
wonderful
that can't
possibly be
expressed in
our language
it's just
you can't
think of
something to
justify
you get
upset
and so
you lash
out with
your fists
and that's
that's more
of a problem
I think
than someone
that's simply
doing something
symbolic
I mean
all it is
is a symbol
I mean
if they set
if they set
a flag on fire
and it has a
post office
attached to it
or something
I could see
being a little
bit angry
but this is
only a symbol
and if you
don't agree
walk the other
way
how we get
through every
day of our
lives
I don't see
why I should
stop with
a piece of
cloth that
represents our
nation
279-3400
good morning
good morning
hello
yes go ahead
okay
the brothers
that were
talking about
the flag
burning
I have
something
here
it'll take
a moment
just to
read it
it was
who was
medley
butler
have you
ever heard
of this
oh well
make it quick
okay
because we
got a lot
of calls
to go to
generals
in america
as described
by general
douglas
and carter
he was
small
he was
round
shoulder
he barely
weighed 140
pounds
dripping wet
and even
when he was
dry his
uniform seemed
to hang
off him
like an
oversized bathing
suit
he never
fought in
one of our
major wars
yet this
unlike model for a
recruiting poster was once described by no less a martial figure
the general macarthur of the armies as one of the great generals
in american history
the warrior was smedley butler a legendary almost art typical marine he fought in his
country's battles from china to the caribbean winning two medal of honors
he would have won a third but regulations did not permit it at the time in an age when
americans regarded fighting with almost a total approval butler was a reckless
battler charging forward like shakespeare's carlanus without ever looking to see if his
men were following in butler's case it was always there because they loved him
higher ups by contrast tended not to for he was a clan tanker unorthodox and hated
military punctuelo and a prissy civilian uh regulation he hated these things smedley
butler in short was the perfect real life model of a fighting leather
neck suitable for framing say in an earlier john wayne movie about a time of innocence
more innocent than today now what does he say as described by himself in his article for
common sense the magazine of the time in november of 1935 i spent 33 years and four
months in active service as a member of our country's most agile military force the marine
corps i served in all the commission ranks from second lieutenant to a major general and
during that period i spent most of my time being a high class muscle man for big business
for wall street for the bankers in short i was a racketeer for capitalism first i helped
make mexico and especially tampico safe for american interests in 1914 i helped make haiti and
cuba a decent place for the national city bank boys to collect revenues i helped in raping half
a dozen central american republics for the benefit of wall street i helped purify nicaragua for the
international banking houses of the brown brothers in 1909 and 1912 i fought for the light for the
right of the dominican republic in america for the sugar interest in 1916 i helped make honduras
right for american food companies in 1903 okay sir sir sir okay i i i get the gist of this can you in
your own words and and and very short the flag around themselves most of the time to commit the worst
kinds of crime whether they are german flags american flags or any other kind it was all done in the name of a
flag in other words pardon me it was done in the name of a flag well that's the greatest symbol of
a country who uses nationalism as a as a criminal uh movement it they bring it together uh-huh and the
people call least behind something that has been symbolically said to them from the time of their
birth to them so you see a very a very real danger in a flag in other words i see a danger in anything
that people adhere to without thought very good point thinking is the main factor that people need
to protect themselves from these democratic uh you know kind of attitudes that people put out
there whether you're talking about uh that congressman back there or one of these here
ku klux klan is nowadays or black nationalists or anyone else people must be able to think to
function properly for their own betterment and society's betterment i think i think you've hit
the nail on the head that's that's what it's all about that's what democracy in action is about
thinking first and i don't think we're encouraged to think very much at all these days and that's
why you're able to think though thinking feed thinking and the moment you stylify that or you
cripple it the thinking becomes distorted because anyone can misuse it and if you go back and look
at any of these pictures of hitler with his flags and his banners and all of this kind of pulling
people together how did it lead to get people together out of these things it's a symbol of people
adhering to a common cause and this is what they've been fed from their mother's milk follow the flag like
right now if you want to get people upset you just start desecrating a few of the crosses and and and
stars of islam and and and uh jewish uh star david any symbol is used to bring a people together for
a purpose and most of the time people misuse the purpose for their own selfish needs okay well thanks
very much for calling sir and for bringing up those points good morning hello yes go ahead um well i'm a
flag burner um but not all flag burners can be put into one category i'm from a generation that learned
that the only proper way to dispose of a flag was to burn it so this might be interesting i i am a
summer resident at a beach community and i'd say that about three-fourths of my neighbors fly the flag
every day and uh we did too when my children were small now because of the wind and the salt air and
the telegraph poles and things like that the flags are pretty shredded by the end of the year
and we save them for the next july 4th bonfire and uh these old flags are put into the bonfire that
we have on the beach and i'll bet you're not going to do that next year oh we did it this july 4th
uh-huh are you going to do it next july 4th well i i'm sure we will because it's all done in a
in a reverent attitude and uh it's only doing what we were taught to do right but do you feel uneasy
now doing that no there was no uneasiness at all because this is a tradition and uh it's just um
a sanctified way of disposing of a flag what which really brings up the idiocy of the law because what
what any anybody would have to do would approach us and say what are you thinking of as you were
doing this and then we bring them this horrible specter of thought police because on one hand
a large group of the population was taught that the only proper way to dispose of a flag is to burn it
which brings up uh something else i i think we all remember the um republican convention and everybody
had a little flag you know when they were adoring bush there and they were waving little flags and
we've seen these demonstrations before and i wonder if those people were advised by say bush on how to
properly dispose of those flags that's a that's a real good point because uh we see flags every day
garbage with the sandwiches and the paper plates or something i think somebody should ask him if he
don't he dispose of as long as they're making such an issue of it i don't see any any any reason why
not to ask those questions and you know you see flags on on mcdonald's bags you see them you know
everywhere in the stores there's a lot of flags to get rid of and i don't know if you saw doonesbury
a few weeks ago he printed a flag um you know in the comic strip right uh and you know it posed a
very real question how do you get rid of this you can't there's no way to under this law it's illegal
to throw it out or to desecrate in any way so um it raises a lot of fun points to pursue and i'm all
for pursuing those i just might add one little poignant thing i had a visitor from north of
ireland a niece of mine and as we were at this bonfire and the flat was burning and everything
somebody said it was a repeating firecracker you know about 25 yards away or something like that
and she fell down on the ground because she says oh it's a shooting so she has been raised you know
to the ground of uh guns and i thought it was a very poignant lesson for my children i said uh
this flag was born under british guns and this girl here is still under the threat she has been
raised here in british guns she just they haven't had their independence day yet and i thought
in a plot that you know i turned it into a positive uh lesson for them that's good and i think we can
get a positive lesson here too thanks very much for calling good morning is anyone there okay i guess
they fell asleep at the phone good morning hi it's first time i've heard your program and um
i'm against flag burning for three reasons um it's it's an indirect statement it's a hypocritical
statement it's an antagonistic statement it's indirect because i think i believe myself in a lot of
people's minds that um the flag stands for so much more than the vietnam war not to belittle the war
but um i mean it stands for getting rid of that evil hitler it stands for getting rid of slavery or at
least getting rid of the worst part of slavery well of course for one time it stood for slavery too
though you see well yeah that's true but i i see what your point it stands for what what we get out
of it in the end is what you're saying right okay but i think see like i think everybody has like a
grandfather who who maybe or everybody knows somebody who who uh maybe pioneered the west or they have a
a grandfather that helped build a bridge and he died building the bridge and and people relate the
flag to those things too it's like and just the whole idea of freedom and it's like if i i've never
seen anybody burn a flag but my reaction would be i'm not going to say oh that guy's burning the flag
because he doesn't believe in what we're doing in el salvador or that guy's burning the flag because he
doesn't like what happened in vietnam i'm going to think my reaction is going to be okay you son of a
gun you don't like this country and everything this country stands for so why are you here
well i mean that's that's a question that's asked quite often but uh again is it really relevant
you know i mean yeah he's here he's burning the flag he's showing disrespect for the country
but doesn't he have the right to do that and if we if we question his right to be here uh aren't we
being kind of hypocritical and i'm afraid you're gonna have to answer that in about 10 seconds
okay well i think i think they're being hypocritical hypocritical because i don't
like a lot of destruction that's going on in this country either but the actual burning of the flag
is a destructive thing to do and it's a very it's they're just not making a point like someone said
before they're just not making they're missing the mark one one final question and we have to go
do you think the law is justified uh no i don't because i think it would take up too much time in
court that we need for other things okay thanks very much for calling and good night and i'm afraid
we're gonna have to make that our last call
and uh it's time for us to go my name's emmanuel goldstein i've been filling in for tom whisker
and uh i'll be back next week filling in for him for the last time and uh we'll talk about something
completely different thanks to everybody who called in and uh keep keep uh thinking keep talking about
this and i'd like to go out with um a piece by a band called the specials and sort of sums up my
whole view on this and on everything else whatever you think in the end whatever you do it's all up to
you good night
what you're gonna do
what you're gonna do
guest drop in on you
we won't go away
cause we've come out to stay
stand there like hard cause if you want to
we can force you to enjoy this music
take it or leave it we'll carry on regardless
if you don't like it you don't have to use it
it's up to young you
it's up to young for you
it's up to young for you
it's up to young for you
Looks like a case of the blind
Leave the debt to me
You must be bored out of your pants
Take it, I'll leave it
We'll carry on regardless
If you don't like it
You don't have to dance
It's up to you
Fight, it's up to you
Fight, it's up to you
Unite, it's up to you
Fight
In London town you can hear the youth
Them say, take warning
It's up to you what you really want to do
For you are standing on the corner
Giving trouble
When the policeman comes
He says you'll have to move on the double
Yeah
So stepping up the street with my little rule girl
With a statement to her anchors
It's up to her what she really want to do
It's up to you, you and strictly you and you
What you gonna do
What you gonna do
When morons come for you
And they won't go away
They want the whole world painted grey
It's up to you
It's up to you
It's up to you
It's up to you
It's up to you
It's up to you
Let's stand to you
Let's stand to you
Let's stand to you
Melissa
Yeah
Yeah
Yeah
Yeah
The X in X-mas is a substitute crucifix for Christ.
A one, a two, a one, two, three, four.
A one, a two, a one, two, three, four.
A one, a two, a one, two, three, four.
A one, a two, a one, two, three, four.
A one, a two, a one, two, three, four.
A one, a two, a one, two, three, four.
A one, a two, three, four.
A one, a two, three, four.
A one, a two, three, four.
A one, a two, three, four.
A one, a two, three, four.
A one, a two, three, four.
A two, three, four.
It's a nicotinic acid.
A two, three, four.
A one, a two, three, four.
A one, a two, three, four.
A one, a two, three, four.
A one, a two, three, four.
A one, a two, three, four.
A one, a two, three, four.
A one, a two, three, four.
A one, a two, three, four.
A one, a two, three, four.
A one, a three, four.
A one, three, four.
to this kitchen
I'm talking about
Frankie Lima
Tell me why
is it so
I'll tell me why
is it so
Out of this place with the idle race
Out of the room with this tune
I love the skins out here
He knows it's on two hill
To go out I'll stay here
I'll stay here
I'll stay here
I'll stay here
I'll stay here
I'll stay here
You
Me
Xmas
Xmas
Ah
Ah
Ah
Ah
Ah
Ah
Ah
Ah
Ah
Ah
Ah
Ah
Well the power has reached you
And the power has teach you
Ah
When you find
That they can reach you
There is no Christmas
To our junkies
But
No goals
No goals
Are just the traffic pass me by
Bye
One, two, three, four
No Christmas March on me
No Christmas March on me
No Christmas March on me
No Christmas March on me
Right, we're going to go back
To 1940, no money
And I live in Berlin
I think I'll join up, become a camp guard
No war for me
An old juice face dripping red
I hate the prisoners
I hate the officers
There's no fight
I think I'll join the Red Rose
I'll leave Belsen
I'll go to Switzerland
A human race
A human race
Don't think you'll ask him
A human race
A human race
Don't think you'll ask him
Present
I don't like them
I said Ian
In his black
Outthreat
I think I'll drop out
Become a no man
And live
My rule
But I'm the son that gets out of the back
With a dirty face
Every one eye
I meet the same now
I know brains
Our thoughts
A good case for
The systems
We like
We get
A human race
A human race
A human race
A very
Striped
A human race
A human race
I don't think
Ask him
The future
A one-nine-eighty
Black windows
And smoke
Keyholes
My head is
A full of lead
And the beer
Is so weak
Since they've got rid of time around here
Doctor Doom
Fresh from Salem
And the
A witch
Trials
The light of heaven
Time mistaken
Three places
At once
A human race
A human race
A human race
I don't think
Ask him
A human race
A human race
I don't think
Ask him
Ask him
Ask him
Ask him
Yeah.
guitar solo
guitar solo
guitar solo
guitar solo
guitar solo
guitar solo
guitar solo
guitar solo