What date is this? December 16th. That's this Saturday at 8 p.m. That's going to be at the
Borough of Manhattan Community College, a benefit concert for Brooklyn Women's Martial Art. For
information, 718-788-1775. There's going to be a public meeting against racism. You can,
this is going to be in New Jersey. Now let me see if there's a telephone number. 433-2332 and add
the New Jersey area code. Listeners Action is building again. December 16th and 17th there's
going to be a meeting. Call 212-316-7544. So I wanted to kind of throw those those things in,
or not so much throw them in. Listen, I have really enjoyed talking to you. I wish we had
another hour. Like I said, I'll take a few calls at the off the air. And oh there's going to be one
more thing. Thursday, and this is to be concerned about, December 14th from 7 to 9. Vaccinations,
a public policy, and our personal freedom to choose. There's going to be a panel,
which is going to include Sharon Kimmelman of Antivac, as well as two or three other people.
For information, call the Learning Alliance at 226-7171. That's 226-7171. And I got more
announcements, but I'll announce them later. As I was saying, I always enjoy sharing with you,
I enjoy your comments, your caring. And maybe it's not said enough, but I consider you all to
be caring and concerned. I mean to call up, to listen, is about being caring and being concerned.
So I'm glad you have that, and I'm glad you're thinking. We need to be out here thinking,
because if we don't think for ourselves, someone else will surely think for us. So I'm going to go
out and put a little bit of, we came in with Deluise Barrett and the Barrett sisters, and what
a very rigorous way to go out. I want to, let me take you out with the knees of a natural man,
the Selected Poetry of Henry Dumas. Samba, tam, fio fori, sea earth, sea above earth, strike,
sea that breaks, sailing never stops, waves blue to sever, shake this sea till sources.
That's Henry Dumas. You all take care. I've enjoyed hearing, speaking, listening,
breathing with you all. Take care of yourselves very well. Do something very wonderful for you,
because you are the person, you're the joy in your lives. And I'm Carlotta Joy Walker,
and this has been Tuesday Night Live Eclectic Radio.
Who knows the way, if in your life there is something missing,
and there are problems that need a little fixing,
a little fixing, turn them over to Jesus, and let him work them out, yeah.
Look where God has brought us, oh yeah. He has brought us from a mighty long way, yeah.
Look where God has brought us, oh yeah.
And if that's a knocking you hear, there's nothing wrong with your ears.
It's time for the winds of change, here on WBAI New York.
New York, New York, New York, New York.
The wind of change sweeping across the African continent.
The wind of change sweeping across the African continent.
Over there they say this, oh yeah, Africa, oh yeah,
oh yeah, oh yeah, oh yeah, oh yeah, oh yeah, oh yeah, oh yeah, oh yeah, oh yeah, oh yeah, oh yeah.
The wind of hope sweeping across the African continent.
The wind of hope sweeping across the African continent.
Over there they say this, oh yeah, Africa, oh yeah,
power to the people. The struggle must continue on deep Africa.
The wind of hope, the wind of hope, the wind of hope, the wind of hope.
New York, New York, New York, New York, New York.
The wind of freedom sweeping across the African continent.
The wind of freedom sweeping across the African continent.
Over there they say this, oh yeah, Africa, oh yeah,
power to the people. The struggle must continue on deep Africa.
The wind of freedom, the wind of freedom, the wind of freedom, the wind of freedom,
the wind of freedom, the wind of freedom, the wind of freedom, the wind of freedom.
The wind of freedom, the wind of freedom, the wind of freedom, the wind of freedom.
Now you don't know, so you can't try to teach African lyrics.
But this one is about the young and the old.
Why?
Because you can never be too old to learn.
Tell them.
Come now.
I am the greatest advisor from inna mi area.
So feel free to run, come a little lingua.
I am the greatest advisor from inna mi area.
So feel free to run, come a little lingua.
First of all, me grow up with me wuh grandmada.
And wuh pathing she tell me wuh me still remember.
She tell me.
Keep up your pride and your good behavior.
She tell me.
Do your work and no hang up and corner.
She tell me.
No drop school and turn baby mother.
Honor your mother, also your father.
And your days upon this earth, it will be longer.
Now me grow up inna life, me a go turn it over.
And talk some sense to a new upcomer.
I am the greatest advisor from inna mi area.
So feel free to run, come a little lingua.
I am the greatest advisor from inna mi area.
So feel free to run, come a little lingua.
Now here is a thing wuh you have to afraid of.
Worse if you're lucky, more than one lover.
Listen to the worst amount of me Jah can.
Before you enter your co-job, pay your rubber.
Listen to the worst amount of me Jah can.
Before you enter your co-job, pay your rubber.
Listen to the worst amount of me Jah can.
Before you enter your co-job, pay your rubber.
You catch it in a second, find out two years later.
It's easy to catch what it you can't conquer.
It don't only happen with a total stranger.
You can know someone for years and them is a carrier.
So if you want fi have fun, just try.
Remember it's no partial, no care and it no cater.
So until there's a cure by a scientist or a doctor.
Prophylaxis or abstinence is the answer.
I am the greatest advisor from inna mi area.
So feel free to run, come a little lingua.
I am the greatest advisor from inna mi area.
So feel free to run, come a little lingua.
I am the greatest advisor from inna mi area.
I am the greatest advisor from inna mi area.
So feel free to run, come a little lingua.
No crack is a thing where you nothing mess with.
Just like heroin, it is addictive.
If you smoke crack, you got starting wicked.
Yes, it's a thing that's destructive.
Sell out your mother, father and your kid.
Pound your jewelry, sell your TV and fridge.
Your teeth them green, your body looking.
See pretty friend dem see you pon the road.
That's a way you deal with.
Forget about wisdom, knowledge and understanding.
See you pon the road, that's a way you deal with.
Forget about wisdom, knowledge and understanding.
See you pon the road, three o' clock a morning.
A beg you enemy and a beg your brethren.
This dem wan reload and you no have a shilling.
You think to yourself it's something good you're doing.
You don't realize how low life you're living.
You a step up your life and stop the embarrassing.
I didn't know improve advisor from off of the hill
I am the greatest advisor from inna mi area.
So feel free to run, come a little lingua.
I am the greatest advisor from inna mi area.
So feel free to run, come a little lingua.
I am the greatest advisor from inna mi area.
So feel free to run, come a little lingua.
No crack is a thing where you no mess with.
I am the greatest advisor from inna me area
So feel free, feel run, come a little lingua
I am the greatest advisor from inna me area
So feel free, feel run, come a little lingua
I am the greatest advisor from inna me area
So feel free, feel run, come a little lingua
I am the greatest advisor from inna me area
So feel free, feel run, come a little lingua
I am the greatest advisor from inna me area
So feel free, feel run, come a little lingua
I am the greatest advisor from inna me area
So feel free, feel run, come a little lingua
I am the greatest advisor from inna me area
So feel free, feel run, come a little lingua
I am the greatest advisor from inna me area
So feel free, feel run, come a little lingua
I am the greatest advisor from inna me area
So feel free, feel run, come a little lingua
I am the greatest advisor from inna me area
So feel free, feel run, come a little lingua
I am the greatest advisor from inna me area
So feel free, feel run, come a little lingua
I am the greatest advisor from inna me area
So feel free, feel run, come a little lingua
I am the greatest advisor from inna me area
So feel free, feel run, come a little lingua
I am the greatest advisor from inna me area
So feel free, feel run, come a little lingua
I am the greatest advisor from inna me area
So feel free, feel run, come a little lingua
I am the greatest advisor from inna me area
So feel free, feel run, come a little lingua
I am the greatest advisor from inna me area
So feel free, feel run, come a little lingua
I am the greatest advisor from inna me area
So feel free, feel run, come a little lingua
I am the greatest advisor from inna me area
So feel free, feel run, come a little lingua
I am the greatest advisor from inna me area
So feel free, feel run, come a little lingua
I am the greatest advisor from inna me area
So feel free, feel run, come a little lingua
I am the greatest advisor from inna me area
So feel free, feel run, come a little lingua
I am the greatest advisor from inna me area
So feel free, feel run, come a little lingua
I am the greatest advisor from inna me area
So feel free, feel run, come a little lingua
I am the greatest advisor from inna me area
So feel free, feel run, come a little lingua
I am the greatest advisor from inna me area
So feel free, feel run, come a little lingua
I am the greatest advisor from inna me area
So feel free, feel run, come a little lingua
I am the greatest advisor from inna me area
So feel free, feel run, come a little lingua
I am the greatest advisor from inna me area
So feel free, feel run, come a little lingua
I am the greatest advisor from inna me area
So feel free, feel run, come a little lingua
I am the greatest advisor from inna me area
So feel free, feel run, come a little lingua
I am the greatest advisor from inna me area
So feel free, feel run, come a little lingua
I am the greatest advisor from inna me area
So feel free, feel run, come a little lingua
I am the greatest advisor from inna me area
So feel free, feel run, come a little lingua
I am the greatest advisor from inna me area
So feel free, feel run, come a little lingua
I am the greatest advisor from inna me area
So feel free, feel run, come a little lingua
I am the greatest advisor from inna me area
So feel free, feel run, come a little lingua
I am the greatest advisor from inna me area
So feel free, feel run, come a little lingua
I am the greatest advisor from inna me area
So feel free, feel run, come a little lingua
I am the greatest advisor from inna me area
So feel free, feel run, come a little lingua
I am the greatest advisor from inna me area
So feel free, feel run, come a little lingua
I am the greatest advisor from inna me area
So feel free, feel run, come a little lingua
I am the greatest advisor from inna me area
So feel free, feel run, come a little lingua
I am the greatest advisor from inna me area
So feel free, feel run, come a little lingua
I am the greatest advisor from inna me area
So feel free, feel run, come a little lingua
I am the greatest advisor from inna me area
So feel free, feel run, come a little lingua
I am the greatest advisor from inna me area
So feel free, feel run, come a little lingua
I am the greatest advisor from inna me area
So feel free, feel run, come a little lingua
I am the greatest advisor from inna me area
So feel free, feel run, come a little lingua
So feel free, feel run, come a little lingua
I am the greatest advisor from inna me area
So feel free, feel run, come a little lingua
I am the greatest advisor from inna me area
So feel free, feel run, come a little lingua
I am the greatest advisor from inna me area
So feel free, feel run, come a little lingua
I am the greatest advisor from inna me area
So feel free, feel run, come a little lingua
I am the greatest advisor from inna me area
So feel free, feel run, come a little lingua
I am the greatest advisor from inna me area
So feel free, feel run, come a little lingua
I am the greatest advisor from inna me area
So this is what horrible things have become
where people actually feel compelled
to go into St. Patrick's Cathedral
and interrupt Sunday Mass
with talk about things
like AIDS and abortion rights
and that kind of thing.
Let's look at the
what happened,
what actually happened on that day
according to Newsday.
Dozens of AIDS and abortion rights activists
disrupted High Mass
at St. Patrick's Cathedral on Sunday
when they threw condoms in the air,
lay in the aisles,
and chained themselves to pews,
forcing Cardinal John J. O'Connor
to abandon his sermon
and lead the parishioners in prayer instead.
Outside,
about 4,500 demonstrators
organized by Women's Health Action Mobilization,
otherwise known as WHAM,
an abortion rights group
and the AIDS activist group ACT UP
chanted and waved placards
protesting the Catholic Church's
homosexuality against condoms
as a way to prevent the spread
of the disease and against abortion.
Forty-three people were arrested
inside the church at 5th Avenue
and 50th Street.
Many carried out on orange stretchers.
I wonder why they had to tell you
what color the stretchers were.
I also wonder why they had to tell you
where the church was.
Everybody knows where St. Patrick's is.
And also another 68 were arrested outside
according to police.
Three officers suffered minor injuries.
Protest leaders said several demonstrators
also were slightly injured.
And this was the largest protest
since 1987
when activists began picketing
after O'Connor barred a gay Catholic group
called Dignity
from using church facilities.
Now,
I can understand how people are upset by this,
upset by the fact that
people chose to have a demonstration
inside a church,
but damn it, I think it's high time
that this be brought to the forefront.
I mean,
people are literally dying because of ignorance,
because of...
Religious convictions are one thing,
but...
I don't know,
it just turns into a point
where you have to say enough already.
Obviously,
we've got an epidemic here,
and to say blithely that
we're going to pretend condoms don't exist
because to do otherwise
would be to slap God in the face,
or garbage like that.
I mean,
give us a break, please.
And the abortion rights people,
also for the same reason,
people are dying,
literally,
from back-alley abortions
and things like that
in places where it's almost impossible
to get abortions.
It's time that
we go into the 20th century,
gracefully.
Let's get there already.
The only way to get attention
sometimes is to be obnoxious.
Now,
in this particular case,
I don't believe there was any violence,
and I think that's the line
you can't cross.
There's no reason to be violent in something like this,
but you've got to be loud,
you've got to be obnoxious sometimes.
It's just the only way to get attention.
If there had been just a demonstration,
a walk down Fifth Avenue,
do you think it would have made page three of Newsday?
I don't think so.
Page one of the Times? No way.
No way. You've got to be obnoxious.
Now, hopefully,
more people will realize that,
and not just condemn these groups for doing this.
I don't know, time will tell,
but it's also, you know,
it's a question of consistency.
If these groups,
if the people who believe
continue to speak out,
continue to speak out,
then there will be a dialogue at least,
and some progress will be made,
and maybe there will be an adequate
AIDS education program
in this city,
and, you know,
continued support
for abortion rights,
or increased support for abortion rights.
Another thing that
happened this week,
or actually late last week,
out on Long Island,
you hear about the guy that,
he was a doctor,
and he and his wife had been convicted
of soliciting
students at an Oregon
university to have
sex with his wife,
who was, I believe, 44 years old,
not that that really matters,
in the name of
some kind of an experiment.
They would hand out these pieces of paper and say,
we're conducting research on
the sexual habits of the mature female,
and participants will be paid
$10 per orgasm,
or something like that.
Please phone this number,
and become a part
of this experiment.
Now, this was discovered,
and various
people said, hey, you know,
this isn't real research here,
this isn't a bona fide project,
and this
big commotion was raised
in the New York metropolitan area,
because that's where this guy
was a prominent doctor,
out on Long Island.
It was, you know,
at the time, when I first
heard about the story,
I said, well, that's interesting,
this guy and his wife,
maybe they're doing research, but maybe
they're also just getting their jollies by
filming people having sex
with his wife.
And then there was all this talk about,
well, you know, he can go to jail for a long time
for this, and, well, the people
who actually participated in the experiment
weren't prosecuted. I said, why would they be
prosecuted? Why would you prosecute somebody
for agreeing to have sex with somebody else?
It just seems so silly,
you know, if that's what they choose
to do, I don't recall any
evidence of violence,
any evidence of
any kind of coercion.
Just, you know, straightforward,
handing out pamphlets, hey, you want to have sex with this person
for an experiment?
Come by, we'll pay you $10 per orgasm.
Simple as that.
Well,
apparently it's not as simple as that.
We've got all kinds of taboos on things,
and, of course, we live in a perfect society
where nobody ever has
deviant thoughts or
desires of any kind, so anybody that actually
exhibits those kind of things
must be hung up on a cross
somewhere.
So, apparently
all this attention
was too much for the
Dr. Rodney
Wood. He killed
himself last week. He shot himself
Thursday in an apparent
suicide, and it was only a
couple of weeks after both he
and his wife pleaded guilty in Oregon
to prostitution
charges.
The South Hampton
Hospital is where he worked, I believe, and they
suspended him.
In the face of all of this
publicity, I mean,
nobody is going to
go to
this doctor without knowing what he
was involved in,
so what was the possible
reason for suspending him? I can't understand
how that would have
affected his medical career,
his medical abilities,
being involved in some...
You're saying that if you're sexually deviant
in any way or do something that's not exactly
correct in any way,
then you can't be a doctor.
I just think that's
such insanity. We're all human beings.
Ask Gary Hart.
We're all
capable of
saying the wrong thing, feeling the wrong
thing, doing the wrong thing, and
maybe, if we're intelligent enough, realizing
that there aren't that many wrong things
to do when you're a human,
so long as you don't hurt other people. That's
my definition of the wrong thing.
And everything else, as long as
you're
not
invading someone else's privacy, not
violating somebody else's rights,
more power
to you. Unfortunately,
in this case, it's too late.
Well,
those are my thoughts on that matter,
and I'd like
to hear your thoughts on the matter, too, except
for one thing. We do have a special guest
tonight, and we are going to be talking about
something completely different, so
I just wanted to throw those things out at you,
but maybe we can talk about it later
on or in a future program.
By the way, this is Emanuel Goldstein, filling in
for Tom Whisker tonight on the
Military Hardware,
or actually, Weaponry is the official name
of the program. I've been filling
in for the last two weeks. This is the third
week and final week,
and Tom will be back from the Crafts Fair
next week at
the same time, and when I will be back,
I'm not sure. I don't have a
regular slot here at WBAI
yet. We'll see. There's
rumors of all kinds of changes in
the offing here at WBAI,
but we'll see what
comes of all that, but
we will be
taking your phone calls in a little bit, because
we'll be talking to Craig
Demer, who
is a South African,
a South African who is living
in New York, and
the United States is threatening
to send him back to South Africa because
he's evaded the draft.
And
he's facing quite a dilemma
right now. We're going to be speaking with him on the phone
in just a couple of minutes,
and we'll be taking your phone calls.
You can speak directly to him at
212-279-3400.
This is
WBAI in New York,
and we're here until
3.30,
and your calls are welcome.
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And when a man's tryin' to change
It only causes further pain
You realize that all along
Something in us going wrong
You stop dancing
Yes, that's true
Yes, that's correct
In 1985 I arrived in America
And I applied for political asylum in America
Because I refused to serve in the South African military
Which has a major role in the enforcement of apartheid
And apartheid is, I think most people are aware of
What apartheid is in South Africa
It's the systematic oppression of people
By virtue of their race
And it's a system that's been condemned
By all countries all over the world
Including the United Nations
So I refused to have any part in this whole system
And it was totally against all my moral and political beliefs
And I came over here and I applied for asylum
And I waited three years for a decision from the State Department
And they sent me a letter in September this year
Saying they had turned me down for asylum
And gave absolutely no reason whatsoever after a three year wait
And I'm now awaiting deportation hearings
Well let me ask you this
Is it possible, is it not possible for a South African
To simply move to the United States?
What do you mean?
Can't you simply say
I'm not living in South Africa anymore
I want to move to the United States
It's not that easy?
Oh no
I think the United States is one of the most difficult countries
In the world to get
There are very few avenues I think open to
Outsiders to enter America
You have to have a relative living in the United States
Or you have to be married to an American citizen
Or otherwise possess a skill that's in demand
And you can get work authorization by possessing a certain skill
I came over for the reason to apply for asylum
To take a stand against apartheid in South Africa
And that was the avenue open to me
And one I wanted to pursue
Because I felt that the rest of the world
Needed to know what is exactly going on in South Africa
And is still going on in South Africa
Despite all this current publicity from the South African government
That they're making all these wonderful changes
Which are very cosmetic and very minor
Now yeah I get regular propaganda tapes
From the South African government in fact
And I've played them on this station a few times
They're rather interesting to listen to
For one thing they refer to South Africa as Southern Africa
Is that something?
That's really the Republic of South Africa
Southern Africa refers to all the countries in South Africa
Which is Zimbabwe, Namibia, Angola, Botswana
I think the correct term would probably be South Africa
Well when they mention Southern Africa
They're always referring to South Africa
I'm just wondering why the distinction
But that's not really relevant here
First of all you're from a place called Durban
Where is that close to?
It's a coastal area, it's on the Indian Ocean
It's a beautiful place near Mauritius
It's on the East Coast
It's the second largest city in South Africa as well
It's very ethnic, it's very much like New York
Made up of various Indian populations
Africans, whites, so it's a very diverse population
Could you possibly describe to us
You say it's like New York
But obviously it's not like New York in very blatant ways
It's a rather ironic situation
Because we have all the different races
You know, living together
But by law in separate areas
They attend separate schools
They live in different residential areas
They attend different hospitals
They attend different churches
They ride different buses
So it's all segregated according to the law in South Africa
Which is totally ridiculous
All people are the same wherever they are
All over the world
But in South Africa the government is such
That they view people other than whites as being inferior
And for that reason that's why I came over to America
To make a stand to oppose apartheid
And refuse to have any part in the maintenance of apartheid
I'm just trying to get more of a sense
Of where you came from
Because you hear all these talks about apartheid
But so rarely do you actually hear firsthand
What it's like in day-to-day life
The little things
Like you say blacks and Indians have to take different buses
You stand on the corner and you see a bus coming down
The buses are actually different
They have different colored buses
They have different fares
There are different hospitals that black people have to go to
And many people have died on the way to hospital
Because if they were black they would have to travel a different distance
A longer distance to go to the black hospital
Never mind the fact that they just passed a white hospital on their way
It's just a totally absurd system
You know when I came over here
I just took so many things for granted
That things were so segregated
And just to see that everything is so integrated here
It's such a shock
When you grow up in South Africa
You just accept the way things are
That everything is just so segregated
Now you lived in South Africa all your life
All my life
I was born here
I'm like a fourth generation South African
I've never known anything else
And I've never traveled overseas
When you were younger, when you were a kid
Did you question things all the time
Or did you perhaps just not think that much about it?
Quite honestly I didn't think much of it
Because growing up
My parents are government supporters unfortunately
Growing up in that environment
You're sort of brainwashed
It's taught that it's the right way
This is the way it is
The whites are in power
They are the dominant people
You just accept it
How is that reinforced?
It's reinforced by the media
It's reinforced at school even
I remember in high school
Every week on a Friday
All the school kids would go to school in military uniforms
And would go to the rifle range and practice
Shooting black people at target
With the aim that they would be well prepared
To go into the military after graduating from high school
It's this whole system that's enforced
Since a child
That the whites are the dominant class
And the black people are the enemy
Which is really absurd
It's a very frightening
A very horrible situation
To grow up in actually
When you come to think of it
A system that just
Separates people so horribly
That makes everyone enemies
When everyone is just basically the same
I'm just trying to get a sense though
Of the white community in South Africa
Are there many people like you that question things?
I wish there were more to be quite honest
It's very difficult when you're brought up
In an environment like that
You just accept it
You've never known anything else
It takes quite a lot of guts
I think to stand up
For something that you believe in
When you know that you're going to be
Ostracized or alienated for something
When you were growing up
Did you see any instances of that?
Of somebody standing up and saying this is wrong?
Not really
The first time I saw that happen
Was when I went to university
After graduating from high school
I remained in Durban
I went to university there
And I began to train as a social worker
And I was first exposed to
People standing up for
Their rights and opposing the system
I went to various black townships in South Africa
The whites live in different areas
The blacks live in different areas
And the blacks are allocated
13% of the land in South Africa
Now they make up 3 quarters of the population
But they only live on 13% of the land
And it's the worst land available
And I went and traveled in all the black townships
We call them townships
Because they're like squatter camps
There's no plumbing, there's no electricity
No roads, nothing
I did social work and field work
In these townships
And I saw white social workers
Advocating and encouraging the black people
To try and bring about change in their communities
And I saw how the government reacted to these attempts
By imprisoning them and banning them
Putting them under house arrest
And this is still continuing today
Wait, who did they imprison and ban?
Oh, people working in the townships
White and black
Mainly social workers and community workers
This was viewed as subversive
According to the government
As soon as you enter a black township
Or a black area
And you try to bring about a community spirit
And try to encourage and facilitate people
To advocate for their rights
To improve their facilities
And housing, etc.
This is regarded as treacherous
You know, you're being a traitor
It's subversive
And you can get imprisoned without trial
And in a state of emergency
Which has been in South Africa since 1985
The police and the army regularly patrol these townships
They make arrests
They can barge into your house at any time
They can search your house without any warrant
They can fire tear gas
They can occupy schools
If they suspect that black children are
You know, speaking their mind
Or doing anything that they view as subversive
Now, Craig, you said you traveled through black townships
And you being a white person
Did you feel any kind of hostility directed towards you?
None again, I would
It would depend on the mood at that particular time
If an incident had just happened
Sometimes we were warned
That it would be very dangerous
For a white person to go into a certain area
That particular week
Because the car would be stoned
Just by virtue of us being white
Other times, people would just be so desperate
For some person to help them
Or to advocate for them
And I'd be given so much support
And I'd be received with open arms
Because I would be the last resort
You know
So it was a mixture of
Sometimes I wouldn't be given such a favorable reception
Because of my race
And sometimes it would be great
I see
Now, at what point did you say to yourself
That you wanted to leave the country?
Well, I began my university studies in 1980
And all during this time
I trained as a social worker
And did three years working in the different townships
And, you know, my feelings just became more and more strong
About my hatred for the system
I just thought it was so unjust
Just so unfair
And here I was training to be a social worker
To improve people's lives
And I knew that, you know
Military conscription exists in South Africa
And all white males have to go and serve in the military
And I just
I had this dilemma, you know
Very soon I would have to go into the military
And enforce this whole system
Which I thought was very unfair
And really disgusting
Or otherwise make a stand
And I didn't know what type of stand to make
I came over to America for a vacation
And while I was here
I received my call-up notice
That I would very soon, in a couple of months
Have to report for duty
So I was faced with the dilemma
Of going back to South Africa and serving in the military
Or refusing
Going back and refusing
And being put into jail
For six years
Now, military service in South Africa
What specifically does that entail?
All white males
From the age of 18
Have to serve in the South African military
It's been reduced now to one year
Because South Africa has withdrawn from Namibia
But the military in South Africa
Its primary role
Is to enforce the system of apartheid
And this has been recognized by the United States
State Department
That the South African
Defense Force
Has a crucial role in the enforcement
And maintenance of apartheid
So as I say
They can be involved in right control
Patrolling townships
To eliminate any sort of
Outbreak of opposition
They can occupy schools
If the school kids
Show any sign of opposition
Or wanting to demand
A right
They can enter houses
Without a warrant
So these are some of the activities
That the military, by law
Is capable of doing
And every white male citizen
Must serve in the armed forces
At some point
Yes
There is one little loophole
If you don't want to serve in the South African military
That's available
Is that if you're a religious objector
You can serve in a non-combatant capacity
And that's the only
Alternative available
If you don't want to serve in the South African military
Service
I'm not a religious objector
I'm a conscientious objector
I oppose apartheid and that's the reason why
I don't want to serve in the South African military
So I don't get offered that alternative
The only alternative
Is jail for me
Now there's a piece
In the New York Times
On November 21st
And there was
I had a question based on something that was said
In that article and I'll read it
The United States officially condemns
Apartheid and voted for a 1978
Resolution passed by the United Nations
General Assembly calling on all
Member nations to grant asylum
To South African conscientious objectors
Now is that not what you are?
That's exactly what I am
So how come the United States isn't granting asylum to you
When they voted for that bill?
I would love to know the answer to that one
I've been waiting three years for it
It took three years to get a reply?
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So this must be...
...problems with my family, my taking a stand
They did not know about my asylum application
They did not know about my asylum application
until it appeared in the newspapers a couple of weeks ago
It also appeared in the South African newspapers
My mom opened the newspaper one morning
My mom opened the newspaper one morning
and saw that her son had applied for political asylum three years ago
and saw that her son had applied for political asylum three years ago
and now was going through this procedure
and it's caused a few difficult feelings
and it's caused a few difficult feelings
That was precisely the reason why I hadn't told them
when I came over that I was applying for asylum
because I knew it would estrange us
because I knew it would estrange us
and make things really difficult
Do you know if there are many other people
facing what you're facing
either in this country
or who are looking for ways of leaving South Africa?
There are a couple of about three or four
that you know of
I'm about the first person that applied for asylum
I'm about the first person that applied for asylum
Whatever happens to me will probably happen to them
So, you know, we're waiting, there's a chap down south who also applied for asylum, he's
a draft resister, and he's had a lot of congressional support, he's had congressmen who have advocated
passing a bill, you know, for people in our position from South Africa who oppose apartheid
and who are applying for asylum.
But we're all just waiting now, you know, it's just waiting and waiting.
But I think that what I'm going through is just such a small price to pay.
You know, people in South Africa now are, the black people are going through the most
terrible times, they have been going through this for years and years, you know, they have
no rights, they have no right to vote, they just totally, you know, don't have any mouthpiece.
And what I'm going through is really nothing.
You know what, yeah, that's a very good point.
In a way, you know, we're focusing on your problems, but I don't want to give the impression
that we're bypassing the major problem of this whole issue, which is of course the oppression
of the minorities, or I'm sorry, the majority, it's a slip of the tongue there, of course.
What makes me particularly upset now is that recently our president in South Africa has
made a few changes, such as opening the white beaches to black people.
Right, now I wanted to ask you about that now, and the other things that the clerk is
saying, do you think there's hope?
I have spoken to several people, and there have been a number of reports in the newspapers
from black people in South Africa, and so far the clerk's changes have not been received
with very much optimism, and they're not by the black people in South Africa.
People question how far he's going to go with these changes.
I think it's important to make a distinction between grand apartheid and petty apartheid.
Petty apartheid is things like segregated buses, segregated beaches.
Grand apartheid are things like black people not being able to vote, white people being
able to vote, black people living in different areas, white people living in nice areas,
black people having unequal education, inferior education, white people having superior education.
The clerk has made tiny little changes like opening the beaches, opening some restaurants
or cinemas to black people.
These are not relevant issues.
Any change is good, but I think what the black people want and deserve are equal rights,
like equal education, the right to vote.
The president in South Africa has made these changes because of a great deal of international
pressure, but what's interesting is that you're not hearing very many reports from the black
people in South Africa to say that they are thrilled to death with these changes.
You're getting a lot of propaganda now from South Africa from the government saying, oh,
we're making these changes, how wonderful, please bring us into the international community
again.
But you're not hearing the same thing coming from the black people, and they're the ones
that are affected by all this.
We're speaking with Craig Demer.
He's a 25-year-old white South African living in New York facing deportation by the United
States because he is, well, he's in the United States because he's refused to enlist in the
armed forces in South Africa, and he's facing deportation because the United States State
Department refuses to consider him a refugee.
I believe that's the status you're going for as a refugee, Stanis?
Yes, a political asylum applicant, yeah.
Right.
We'll be taking your phone calls at 212-279-3400.
Craig, I wanted to ask you one more question, though, about coverage of all this.
The current state of affairs in South Africa, there is still censorship imposed upon all
foreign reporters.
There's still a state of emergency in South Africa, and this makes all these changes that
President De Klerk is reporting so hypocritical.
There's a state of emergency in South Africa that's been in existence since 1985, and one
of the things that happens when there's a state of emergency is that there's a news
blackout, and all the media in South Africa is subject to government inspection.
Foreign journalists have absolutely no access to covering events in South Africa, because
obviously the government fears that we will see things that we shouldn't see.
So there's a news blackout in South Africa, so you're only hearing things that the government
wants you to hear.
Sounds familiar.
Well, we're going to be taking phone calls in just a minute at 212-279-3400 if you want
to ask Craig Demmer a question or two, or a comment on the issue, and we'll be right
back.
From August 1983, that's the special AKA racist friend, and I would tend to think that
the United States has a racist friend in the name of South Africa, and it certainly is
long, long overdue for that friendship to end.
We have Craig Demmer with us.
He's a white South African here in New York seeking political asylum, and apparently losing
the battle and facing deportation, because he refuses to serve in the armed forces in
South Africa.
And I'm just wondering, Craig, why there aren't more people like you, and why there haven't
been people like you in the past?
Is this part of a trend, do you think?
I don't know, Emmanuel.
About two months ago, 780 white males as well made a public statement that they were fed
up with this whole system in South Africa, and they would refuse to serve in the military
as well.
Out of those, that eventually, when the time came for them to report for duty, a lot of
them did report for duty, and only a handful resisted.
In the last year or so, there have been a couple of documented cases of people resisting
to serve in the military, and there have been public cases and lots of publicity, and they
were sentenced to six years in jail, including a doctor who worked in one of the townships
in South Africa.
He set up a clinic for 30,000 black people in a squatter camp, and he was the sole doctor
there for six years, Crossroads.
Some Americans may be familiar with that name, the squatter camp in South Africa.
He refused to serve in the South African military, and last year he was sentenced to six years
in jail, and he's currently sitting in jail, and there are a couple of others now as well.
Do you think there's any chance of white people changing things from within the country and
not leaving the country?
In other words, just standing up to this law, standing up to the prison sentence, demonstrating?
Do you think it's...
That happened, as I said, a couple of months ago, 780 white males made a stand and said,
we are just totally in opposition to this whole system, this military system.
A couple have gone one stage further, and when the time came for them to call up and
lift, a couple have actually resisted, and now probably are awaiting trial in South Africa.
But are the 780 of them, are they still united?
That's difficult to assess.
I can't give an honest answer to that.
I really wouldn't know.
What I do know is a handful, to my knowledge, have actually gone through one stage further
and have, on the day that they had to enlist, refused to.
A lot made a public announcement but didn't follow it up, that they would not serve in
the military.
But there have been six documented cases that went through the whole publicity thing of
opposing a military service and have been thrown into jail now and serving the military,
including this Dr. Ivan Toms that I've just mentioned.
Okay, we're going to go right to the phones.
I just wanted to take a quick look at this newspaper report that appeared, I believe,
in Tuesday's Times, the state line, Johannesburg, December 11th.
Twelve policemen and an army officer were acquitted of murder on December 11th in the
first such private prosecution brought in South Africa.
The 13 members of the security forces were involved in an operation near Cape Town on
October 15th, 1985, in which policemen hiding on the back of a large truck opened fire on
protesters who were stoning passing vehicles.
Three young men were killed.
After a judicial inquest found the security force members responsible for the deaths,
the parents of the dead youths tried to bring legal action, but the Attorney General of
Cape Province refused to prosecute the case.
The family of Sean Mahmoud, who was 16 years old when he died of gunshot wounds, then decided
to file murder charges independently with the aid of civil rights lawyers.
The family of another victim, Michael Miranda, who was 11, postponed its plans for legal
action pending the outcome of this trial.
And today, or on December 11th, the Judge D.M. Williamson ruled that the lawyers representing
the Mahmoud family had failed to prove criminal intent on the part of the officers who planned
the Trojan Horse operation, as it was subsequently called, and the men who carried it out.
Justice Williamson agreed that the security force members had overreacted to a manifestly
dangerous situation by firing shotguns indiscriminately into the crowd.
If successful, the private murder prosecution would have set a precedent for opening other
cases in which policemen or soldiers had killed protesters.
The Trojan Horse incident took place in the mixed-race township of Athlon during a wave
of racial unrest in 1985.
Some of the protesters had set up burning barricades and were hurling stones at passing
cars and trucks.
The South African authorities decided to try to stop it by hiding a dozen policemen and
the army officer in crates on a freight truck, which was driven through the troubled neighborhood.
When the protesters began stoning the truck on its return trip, the policemen jumped from
concealment and, without identifying themselves or sounding a warning, fired shotguns into
the mob.
Video camera footage introduced as evidence in court showed that the indiscriminate shooting
lasted about 15 seconds after the stone-throwing had stopped.
Justice Williamson described the stone-throwing as vicious and murderous and said a limited
armed response was justified, but he said the tragic outcome should be a warning to
those in authority to never again plan such an operation.
But it's interesting how the blame for the entire thing was thrown on the people throwing
stones.
You know, Manuel, that's not the first time it's happened.
I'm sure it's not.
In one of numerous cases since 1985, over 1,100 men, women, and children have been killed
by the security forces in South Africa.
And I'm talking about children.
I have documentation, affidavits from their family, children being tortured and being
killed.
I'd like to ask you one question, then we'll go right to the phones.
Do you see a parallel here?
A lot of people have said this and there's been a lot of debate over it, but do you see
a parallel between the West Bank situation and this?
In what respect?
Well, you have stone-throwing demonstrators being shot to death.
I mean, maybe that's where the similarity ends, but I don't know.
What's your insight into it?
It's hard to really determine.
I think, you know, the South African people are fighting for a cause, and I think that
cause is the abolition of apartheid.
And that has the support of the world community.
They have no way of, you know, expressing their opinions and opposition through normal
legal channels because they have no representation in Parliament.
How else can they voice their opposition to apartheid?
They have the military patrolling their townships.
Are they just going to sit and watch, you know, the trucks roll by and, you know, people
invade their houses?
You know, what can they do?
What indeed.
Let's take some calls.
279-3400.
Good morning.
Yes.
Good morning.
Go ahead.
Okay.
I want to just begin by saying I'm appalled at what I hear, you know, this dear man to
have to undergo such treatment by a government that supposedly gives refugees and, you know,
political asylum.
Let me just say, Emmanuel, I enjoy your program, and I hope you'll have a steady spot, okay?
Okay.
Write in a letter and say that.
Yeah.
I will.
I'm writing to Andrew Phillips about many things.
This is Monroe, by the way.
I want to say that I went to this El Salvadorian rally, I hope you don't mind me just mentioning
it.
I also went to the Pittston rally.
You know what I mean?
For the Pittston miners, the Eastern Airlines flyers.
You are going to tie this together?
Yeah, I'm tying it together.
Okay.
Because it's all part of the entire thing.
I admit I didn't get to the St. Patrick's rally about the church thing, but that's because
I felt there'd be enough people, and there certainly were.
But some of these rallies don't get proper coverage.
I want to tell Craig that I went to the Mandela rallies, one in Central Park and one up in
Mount Morris Park in Harlem, the latest one.
For Nelson Mandela, that brave man, as you well know, right, Craig?
Yes.
My God, can you imagine being in prison for 28 years?
Can you really imagine what it is to a human life?
Hold on, hold on, we seem to have trouble here with the callers hearing each other.
Monroe, I'm going to...
I heard, I heard.
He heard me, Carl.
Okay, well, we were both talking at the same time.
Okay, Monroe, go ahead.
Okay.
Now, I just want to go into what I would like to offer to adopt Craig.
I'm 58.
No, I'm saying, if I can take a poor dog or a poor cat, I have a cat, if I can take a
creature of this world, not that I think any are not worthy, but if this poor man cannot
stay in this country, I offer that I will become involved to adopt him in.
You know what I mean?
Okay, well, let's...
Let me just say this.
That's an interesting point.
I would hope that the NAACP is doing something.
I would hope that Jesse Jackson knows about this, and I would hope that everybody would
be...
This man is a shining light of what I would like to be considered, you know, a person
who, on conscience, has to speak up, and then is even jeopardizing his own life.
And Craig, I want you to know something.
I love WBAI, but I have been so tortured because I fought for certain aspects where freedom
of speech was being sullied and mistreated, and as a result, I'm hung up on it a lot.
Now, Emmanuel, you haven't done it.
I thank you.
I'm going to let you off now, but I do offer, and I stand by my words.
Thank you.
Okay.
Thanks for calling.
Now, he brought up an interesting point, adoption, is that if somebody were to adopt you, would
that solve your problem?
The problem is I'm not young enough, Emmanuel.
That's true.
That alternative is only available to someone under, I think, 14 years of age.
I see.
How about marriage, then?
The only alternative for me is to apply for asylum, and there's no other way, really.
You mentioned marriage before, though.
Marriage is one as well.
There are many eligible women out there, but I'm only kidding.
I'm doing this for a reason.
I'm making a stand, and I want to educate people about what's really going on in South
Africa.
And I'm willing to put up with all this inconvenience, and I'm prepared to see this thing through
right to the end.
What can I say?
I just hope for the best.
I'd like you to give out any kind of address or phone number at this point so that we can
catch those people that might tune out before the end of the program.
Anything that people can write to or send or do to help?
Well, the best thing I could do is to write to the congressman if they're willing to make
some sort of support for my case, to let the congressman know about this whole situation
and what's going on in South Africa.
I'm being represented by the ACLU in New York, and they've been very active in pursuing my
case for political asylum.
And I'm sure they would like to hear from anyone that would like to support the cause
that I hope that I represent.
Any support whatsoever would be very, very helpful, through church groups or through
people's congressmen or whatever would be very, very much appreciated.
Okay.
Let's take another call.
Good morning.
Yeah.
Go ahead.
Yeah.
Turn down your radio.
I would like to talk about his position.
Sir, could you turn down your radio?
Yeah.
I would like to talk about his position or what motivated him to actually get involved
with this.
Well, he grew up in South Africa, and most of the time his teachings were the teachings
of the people in South Africa.
And I would like to know what kind of influence motivated him to go through all this ordeal,
and what made him fight for this.
I mean, I understand that there must have been other people that probably helped him
to see the light in this matter, but I would like to know what actually influenced him
to pursue this crusade.
Who and what inspired you?
That's a very good question.
You know, the gentleman's right.
During high school and my early years, I wasn't really exposed to anyone that had any opposition
to the whole system.
But when I was 18, I went to university, and I began training as a social worker.
And for the very first time, I was exposed to conditions that I had never seen before,
like black areas and poverty.
I studied under very, very influential people that were well-known for opposing the system.
I studied under Professor Fatima Mir, and she is a world-renowned sociologist.
She has been banned for years and years and been placed under house arrest by the government
in South Africa.
She's an Indian woman.
So I was exposed to a number of lecturers and professors, and just mainly, I think,
through practical experience and field work as a social work student,
that sort of brought me around to the reality that exists in South Africa,
the terrible conditions that people are subjected to just by virtue of their race.
I think there was always some sort of suspicion about the system in South Africa from an early age,
but I was never subjected to any real criticism from people.
about the system until I reached university.
So it seemed to me that the South African government had better worry about the university.
If they could somehow prevent people from reaching that stage,
they might be able to actually control them a little bit better.
Oh, you know, Emmanuel, they tried to do that when I was at university.
The military, you know, the police were quite often seen on campus.
You know, it's illegal in South Africa to have protests.
You know, like you've mentioned the St. Patrick's Day march.
That's illegal in South Africa. Forget it.
Any protest like that.
I was locked up once in a lecture hall.
There was just a debate on some issue that was happening in South Africa.
I can't remember what.
And the police arrived with their dogs, and they barricaded all the doors
and locked us in for a couple of hours.
Wait, you mean somebody started debating?
Word got out that there was a debate going on, and they surrounded the building?
I was a member of a student group, the Student Representatives Council.
And, you know, just one day, you know, the police heard about this,
and they just decided that, you know, we weren't allowed to proceed with this.
It was a peaceful, it wasn't even a demonstration, it was just a big discussion
in a lecture hall.
And they cordoned it off, and we weren't allowed to proceed.
You know, student leaders have been banned, they've been harassed.
I mean, this is a common practice in South Africa.
You know, the South African government tries to do anything in its power
to suppress opposition or, you know, criticism of its policies.
And it's going on right this minute as I'm speaking.
There's a current state of emergency, and it's been in existence since 1985.
And I would just like to make people aware of the fact that
President de Klerk is saying that he's making all these wonderful changes.
How about abolishing a state of emergency,
and how about giving everyone an equal right in the running of the government?
Any other questions from our caller?
Well, I think, you know, he pretty much answered the question.
But I would like to tell him that I admire his courage,
and I don't think that I would be as valiant as him to go through what he went through.
But I guess one of the things that I wanted to say is that there is a lot of things
that people that are listening to the program can do.
I particularly go to City College myself, and I also have been to school,
and I'm familiar with people that are from the South African system,
and they usually don't talk much about it.
But I know for a fact that it must be, you know,
it must be a cultural shock for him to come to the United States
and see how different things are in the United States as compared to South Africa.
And I guess another question that I would like to ask him is about the international community
that travels to South Africa and see this type of situation, I mean, how they react to it.
How is the investments of the international community pouring into South Africa
and affecting or helping the apartheid system to actually keep working the way it is?
Okay, so you can listen to the answer on your radio.
I'll release the line and ask another caller who can get through.
Thanks for calling.
Okay, do you want to address that question?
Yeah, that's a very good question.
A number of issues were raised, actually.
Visitors from other countries that go to South Africa, if they're black,
they are given an honorary status.
They're called honorary whites, and they are permitted to stay in white hotels.
I'm sorry.
I don't know if anybody else finds that incredibly funny, but I do.
Honorary whites?
Yes, given honorary white status.
A temporary white pass, perhaps?
Well, I can tell you something even more ludicrous,
and that's everyone in South Africa has an identity document,
and on that document they are classified as a certain race.
And there are many, many times during the year when people have had their classification changed
from a colored person to an Indian or from an Indian to a white person.
People have had their race changed a couple of times.
You cannot keep up with it.
Whatever the government feels you're classified as one year, it's up to them.
It's really ridiculous.
I'm sorry. I interrupted your answer to the question, though.
Yeah.
So Americans that people of different race that come to South Africa are given a different status,
which I think is just totally cruel and ridiculous.
And the other issue that the gentleman raised was, I think, economic sanctions,
and maybe how investment sanctions have affected South Africa.
I think it has affected South Africa.
I think the clerk has made a few changes now, and it's only because of international pressure
and the fact that most Western countries have imposed sanctions over the last few years, economic sanctions.
I would just like to stress that I would love the countries, Western countries,
including the United States, to maintain these economic sanctions.
I think that's the only leverage our countries have, Western countries in the world,
to force this government in South Africa to change.
Okay. I'm going to throw the old Reagan-slash-Bush retort at you,
and then I'd like to hear a defense of what you said.
Any kind of trade embargo or whatever will simply hurt those people that we want to help the most.
Now, what do you have to say to that?
Right. And what happens is they're sure they are going to be hurt.
People are losing jobs because American companies are withdrawing from South Africa.
But this is a very important point now.
Who are you hearing from in South Africa who are saying,
please continue with sanctions, please impose them?
Is it the white people or the black people?
And I can answer that for you, and it's the black people.
Bishop Desmond Tutu, he's an example.
These are people who are affected by these sanctions,
but they know that it's the only resort that other countries have
to exert an influence on the South African government.
It's really sad that they have to undergo even more deprivation,
lose jobs, incur more hardship.
But they know that there's just no other way.
Let me ask you one question.
You mentioned identity cards, saying what kind of race you are and everything like that,
and that led me to think of something.
How much high technology is in the hands of the South African government?
How easy is it for them to computerize their operations
and categorize everybody nice and neatly?
Well, I don't know if they can do it neatly.
I think it's a rather messy affair.
But they obviously have the bureaucracy in South Africa to do this.
You wonder where all the money goes in South Africa, all the taxpayer money.
Well, now you know.
It's to pay for all these ridiculous identity documents.
Forget about spending this money on black children, on their education.
Right, but I guess my question is those identity documents,
are they computerized or are they done by hand or what?
No, it's just like I suppose Americans will have a normal identity document,
but you'll have your photo and it will have a classification,
and you'll probably get interviewed.
You see, black people have different rights to white people,
and often people will apply for a different racial classification
because they'll be eligible for different rights.
So we have, I think, four different race groups in South Africa.
We have the Indians, we have the coloreds, they have mixed blood,
we have African, and did I mention whites?
We have about four.
So people that have colored mixed race may apply to the Department of Internal Affairs
to get reclassified as white people, and they'll go for an informal interview,
and there may be genetic tests or something done,
or a physician may see them and determine that, all right,
they may be white-looking, so we'll reclassify them as white.
That's the way it happens.
See, the reason I'm interested in the technology aspect,
I'm just familiar with ways that governments can categorize their citizens through computers,
do cross-referencing, and just be very efficient and quick with it,
and I just would shudder to think of that in the hands of the South African government.
Oh, yeah, you know, there's a huge bureaucracy that exists,
and who knows what the internal mechanism is like,
but all I know is that it has a terrible effect on people.
They're just putty in the hands of the bureaucracy there.
Right.
The question I'm asking is how effective is that bureaucracy, how efficient is it?
Maybe somebody out there has more specific information as far as, you know, the internal workings.
Our number is 279-3400, area code 212.
Good morning.
279-3400, area code 212.
Yes, that's me.
Turn down the radio and speak in the phone.
Hello?
Yes, go ahead.
First of all, I'd like to welcome Craig and applaud him.
My goodness, that's a marvelous thing he's doing.
It's the sort of thing that I think I might do.
By the way, I'm of African descent.
However, most people, I guess, in America would consider me black.
I do not consider myself black because nobody can be black.
And I just want to say that that's really the bottom of the whole issue.
I notice he refers to himself as a white person.
You refer to him as a white person.
He's not a white person.
He is a human being.
There's no way he could be white.
Anybody who knows anything about ontology or epistemology or existentialism
knows that a human being is a cognitive, animate being.
A color is a non-cognitive, inanimate object.
These things can never, never equal.
That's the basis of the whole thing.
And it's interesting that Winnie Mandela, in her book,
a part of my soul wouldn't have said that she would never, never use the word black or white.
And it's the sort of thing that's imposed on them by the government.
And essentially that's the same thing that's happening in America here.
That's why the media will not give up this black-white thing
because it's a means of polarizing people
and preventing people from enjoying the friendship of each other.
So that's the thing that you first of all have to come to grips with as to who you are.
People don't know who they are.
They think that they're white.
They think they're black.
They think that they're this or that.
And they're none of these things.
I don't know what you think you are, Emanuel.
And just let me stop for a minute and ask Craig, who does he think he is?
Does he think he's white?
Well, being brought up in a situation, you know, an environment like South Africa,
you know, you are brainwashed and you are thought in terms of, you know,
what color your skin is.
That's the way it is.
And, you know, however much we may disagree with it,
that's the way it is in South Africa.
I regard myself as an African.
Well, that's exactly what you are because skin has no operative value.
And, you know, if you start to think about it,
people are regularly flown in from various places from the world, India, China,
and so on for various medical operations and so on.
And you notice that there doesn't have to be any change in the diagnostic
or treatment facilities to treat these various people.
It can be done with anyone.
People are actually the same.
There's no indicia that could prove that people are different.
There's no way.
And I have that problem with people all the time because people look at me and say,
well, as a black man, what do you think?
Well, as a black man, I can't think as a black man because I'm not a black man.
I'm a human being.
This is just a label this is giving us.
And in this way, South Africa and America are very, very similar.
They took us and came as slaves.
They gave us this identity as black because in that situation,
blacks got nothing and the whites got everything, so that was it.
But to go back to an old African proverb,
it's not a question of what you think I am.
It's what I answer to.
And so you've got to start with that identity as to who you are
and know that, first of all, that you're a human being.
You're not black.
You're not white.
You're not pink because you can take a kid 10 years old,
hold him in your arms, and show him a color.
I don't care what color it is.
And you tell that kid, what is it you can do that this color can't do?
The kid could tell you.
I can sing.
I can dance.
A color can't do anything.
A color is dead.
And the same game that's being played in Africa is being played in America.
Now to get back to your particular situation,
if there's anything I can do to help you, I would.
And if you tell me what to do, I'll do it.
But I have to tell you that if I would start to help you,
that very soon there'd be people in my life that I would not welcome,
and they'd be asking me questions, and I just don't know how far they would go.
Because to bring people together in this world
is one of the most dangerous enterprises that a person can be involved in.
And you can see that by Malcolm X.
As long as Malcolm X was talking black rhetoric, racist rhetoric,
he was allowed to exist.
But once he went to Mecca and came back,
and he came back something as a universalist then,
he didn't feel that people should be separated and so forth.
And his life after that was very, very short.
Martin Luther King, the same thing.
As long as he was writing letters from a Birmingham jail and talking to people,
he was able to do that.


I don't know what you think you are, Emmanuel.
And just let me stop for a minute and ask Craig, who does he think he is?
Does he think he's white?
Well, being brought up in a situation, you know, an environment like South Africa, you know, you are brainwashed and you are thought in terms of, you know, what color your skin is.
That's the way it is.
And, you know, however much we may disagree with it, that's the way it is in South Africa.
I regard myself as an African.
Well, that's exactly what you are, because skin has no operative value.
And, you know, if you start to think about it, people are regularly flown in from various places from the world, India, China, and so on, for various medical operations and so on.
And you notice that there doesn't have to be any change in the diagnostic or treatment facilities to treat these various people.
It can be done with anyone.
People are actually the same.
There's no indicia that could prove that people are different.
There's no way.
And I have that problem with people all the time, because people look at me and say, well, as a black man, what do you think?
Well, as a black man, I can't think as a black man, because I'm not a black man.
I'm a human being.
This is just a label this was giving us.
And in this way, South Africa and America are very, very similar.
They took us, came as slaves.
They gave us this identity as black, because in that situation, black's got nothing and the white's got everything, so that was it.
But to go back to an old African proverb, it's not a question of what you think I am.
It's what I answer to.
And so you've got to start with that identity as to who you are and know that, first of all, that you're a human being.
You're not black, you're not white, you're not pink, because you can take a kid 10 years old, hold him in your arms, and show him a color.
I don't care what color it is.
And you tell that kid, what is it you can do that this color can't do?
The kid could tell you.
He'll tell you.
I can sing.
I can dance.
I can dance.
A color can't do anything.
A color is dead.
This is just, and the same game that's being played in Africa is being played in America.
Now, to get back to your particular situation, if there's anything I can do to help you, I would.
And if you tell me what to do, I'll do it.
But I have to tell you that if I would start to help you, that very soon there'd be people in my life that I would not welcome,
and they'd be asking me questions, and I just don't know how far they would go.
Because to bring people together in this world is one of the most dangerous enterprises that a person can be involved in.
And you can see that by Malcolm X.
As long as Malcolm X was talking black rhetoric, racist rhetoric, he was allowed to exist.
But once he went to Mecca and came back, and he came back something as a universalist then,
he didn't feel that people should be separated and so forth.
And his life after that was very, very short.
Martin Luther King, the same thing.
As long as he was writing letters from a Birmingham jail and talking about the system, fine.
But once he went to Chicago and started to unify the transportation workers and so forth, short life.
So you've got to understand that this is a very, very dangerous enterprise,
and you can do anything you want unless you do something.
If you can understand what I'm saying.
Sir, if I can just break in here, you're saying that, well, you want to break down the color barriers,
but if I read you correctly, you're saying that once you actually do that in practice, it becomes very dangerous?
I'm saying that for the people of the opposition, for the people who are orchestrating this polarization,
alienation in the world, that they will attack you if you do something like this.
You know, I've attempted to speak at universities about just this particular thing.
And in some cases, the heads of the universities have been notified.
In some cases, heads of departments have been fired, merely because they allowed me to say things like this.
But however, the truth is the truth.
And as I said before, if you go back to ontology, which you probably know what it is,
it's a study of the nature and existence of being.
That is, how do things exist?
A human being cannot exist in terms of a color.
A human being can only exist in terms of his moral prerogatives.
And that's, of course, the whole reason why most people are very confused about what existentialism is.
Because when it came to this country, the powers that be recognized that this was something that could break down this whole business of segregation and racism.
And so they fought it every way they could.
So the result is that most people today, if you ask them what existentialism is, they really don't know.
Okay, but to get back to Craig, I believe he's got what you're saying is what is motivating him.
Is that not correct, Craig?
Yes.
Well, Craig, he's a human being, he's a humanist, and he's a humanitarian.
But you see, you've got to avoid the position of the great white father looking down on a so-called black person and helping him.
But realize that you are exactly like these people that you're helping, and they are exactly like you.
There's no difference at all between you two.
And once you, now that might give some people some problems.
But if you're biblical or you look in the Bible, you look at Acts 17, 26, it says,
Of one blood I have made all nations.
That's what the Bible says.
So, you know, you shouldn't have a problem with that.
But yet in America we have a very, very serious problem.
And even in stations like Channel 13, PBI, and so forth, they will allow you to conduct this controversy as long as you do it in the framework of this dichotomy.
As long as you talk about be nice to people who are different from you.
Well, that's a lie.
The people that you're not being nice to are exactly as you.
There's no difference at all.
And, of course, it's borne out from time to time.
During an earthquake or during a war, people say, well, people got together and so forth.
People are always the same.
Well, now, you know, what you're saying could sound negative in a way, but I know what you're saying.
You're saying people are the same.
They have the same potential, the same rights, and everything like that.
But, of course, we're all different on the inside, right?
Well, why are we different on the inside?
We're all individuals.
Oh, well, of course.
Well, that, of course, obtains even within the group, within any group.
You have variations.
But, basically, the same, people are the same.
People react the same.
Right, of course.
Okay?
I respond to that, Emmanuel.
Go ahead.
We're going to open up the line.
And thanks very much for calling, sir.
Thanks so much.
Okay.
Go ahead.
Respond.
I think we're all in agreement that everyone is equal.
We're all humans, and that's the basic issue.
Forget about the color of the skin.
That means absolutely nothing.
The governments in South Africa, you know, agree that everyone's equal.
But the reason why we have apartheid is that so one colored skin, one race, can be in a superior position to the other.
The black people are in a subservient position to advance the power of the whites.
The government in South Africa knows exactly, you know, biologically everyone's equal.
They're not stupid.
But they, you know, put out this, you know, propaganda or legislation that black people are subservient and, therefore, should not have a right to vote or have any say in the government.
And, therefore, you have the whites in power.
It's a political thing.
You know, everyone knows people are equal.
And I think that that notion scares a lot of people.
Sure, sure.
That's a frightening thought.
The caller brought up an interesting point, though, in parallels in the U.S.
Do you see many of them?
Quite honestly, sometimes on a more subtle level.
In South Africa, you know, racism is institutionalized.
You know, it's in the legislation.
You know, it's legal.
Apartheid's legal.
People are separated according to their race, and it's written in the law books.
In America, this is not so.
Everyone's supposed to be equal.
But now and again, you know, you do have instances of racism, which are pretty scary, like, you know, the Howard Beach episode, etc.
So that's not a governmental or legal thing.
That's just, like, basic prejudice, you know, which exists amongst people.
And it's awful.
But then you get that in any society.
The difference with South Africa is that it's legalized.
Okay, let's take another call.
Our telephone number is 212-279-3400.
You're listening to WBAI in New York.
We're speaking with Craig Demmer, who is a South African here in New York, who is facing deportation by the United States because apparently they are not satisfied.
When I say they, I mean they, the United States government.
I say that increasingly, you know.
They don't represent me.
So it's kind of a weird thing to call the United States they.
But in any event, the United States government, it says that Craig Demmer does not meet the refugee status.
He is not able to seek political asylum in this country because he cannot prove that he will be persecuted if he returns home to South Africa after refusing to serve in the armed forces when, in fact, he faces, what was it, six years in prison?
Six years and up to ten years for advocating a resistance to apartheid and to conscription.
So a pretty lengthy sentence and God knows what else for going public and, you know, opposing apartheid.
If I'm not mistaken, one of the arguments that the U.S. State Department said, was it the State Department that ruled?
They have given absolutely no opinion, but in previous cases they have, you know, given various opinions.
Okay.
I saw this somewhere in the New York Times article that since the penalty here in the United States is very similar for people.
One of the arguments is that people who resist the draft in America get about five years imprisonment, which is almost the same as in South Africa.
You get six years.
So it's not looked upon as undue punishment.
Yeah, the thing is, serving in the American armed services, you know, armed force, is quite different to serving in the South African military.
I can imagine.
You know what I'm saying?
Yeah.
Americans will be serving in the military to maintain democracy, and the South African military, you're there to maintain the system of apartheid.
I see.
There's a fundamental difference.
So the State Department does not acknowledge that.
The South African military is totally different to the American military.
If you oppose, you know, the draft, that's one issue.
But if you oppose apartheid, that's something else.
That's true.
Another thing that I believe was raised was the fact that everybody there gets the same sentence.
So you cannot prove that you individually are being persecuted since everybody that does what you do gets the same sentence.
It seems like, you know, mumbo-jumbo to me.
It is a lot of mumbo-jumbo.
It's just to make life very difficult, actually.
But I have gone public, you know, and I've appeared on TV and through various media, you know, expressing my opposition to apartheid and advocating resistance to serving in the military and anything that will involve the maintenance of apartheid.
And for these activities, you know, I have a great deal of fear that I will be thrown into jail not only for, you know, refusing to serve in the military but under all sorts of other legislation that's in existence in South Africa.
You know, I encourage, you know, economic sanctions against South Africa, and that's another 10-year sentence that could be imposed on me.
I advocate resistance to serving in the South African military.
That's another 10 years.
It's a state of emergency in South Africa.
You know, people can get thrown into jail for wearing a free Mandela T-shirt, and that's happened.
And how long has Mandela been in jail now?
Oh, I think for 20 years since the 60s.
20-odd years.
More than that, yeah.
It's, you know, it's inconceivable that somebody could be in jail for so long.
It's ridiculous.
So what's ironic is, you know, recently in September, nine African leaders were released from jail, ANC leaders.
One of them was Walter Susulu.
And, you know, President de Kluge, you know, he wanted all this applause from the world community.
Oh, look, I've released all these prisoners.
And do you know Walter Susulu's son?
He's a journalist.
He's banned.
He cannot practice as a journalist.
And he's under house arrest.
Has the government done anything about that?
You know?
He's still under house arrest.
The father's been freed, but his son's under house arrest.
I think a lot of it depends upon publicity, you know, how much is talked about.
I think most people in South Africa, black people, are very, very cynical with good reason with regard to the changes that our president's made.
He's doing this all just for the publicity.
It's just due to international pressure.
The economy has deteriorated incredibly as a result of these economic sanctions.
And he's just so desperate to seek approval.
And he's getting it.
Unfortunately, he's getting it.
People are being lulled into this false sense of security that things are really changing and things are getting wonderful in South Africa.
But I'm just mentioning all these things that are still happening in South Africa.
You know, the nationalist government has been in power since 1948.
What people may argue, oh, you know, we have to proceed cautiously or slowly with change.
Change can't happen overnight.
My argument is that the nationalist government have had 40 years to give people the right to vote in South Africa.
Another thing that we have lost sight of here in the United States is the, well, you mentioned the state of emergency still exists, but the state of censorship.
Every time we read a newspaper story in the New York Times or, you know, over the Associated Press or see it on ABC News or something, that report has been affected by censors in some way.
Now, there used to be a little thing at the beginning of every story saying this, but they've stopped running that little piece that tells you this story has been censored.
And I think the result of that is that people think it's over.
People think there is no censorship and what they're getting is the real story when, in effect, they're not at all.
That's totally true.
In the beginning of South Africa, when the state of emergency went into effect, all the South African newspapers left big blanks on all the columns in the papers indicating this is where their story would be.
But because of government censorship, they couldn't print the story.
And same as in America, there'd be a little byline saying that due to government censorship, not all facts could be printed.
But the censorship has been going on for a number of years now, and for some reason, you know, people forget that there's still censorship and, you know, the bylines have been dropped and we get such a little dripling of, you know, information from South Africa.
But the situation is exactly the same in South Africa.
There's still strict censorship.
Emmanuel, you asked me before I appeared in the show if there was anyone in South Africa that would like to be in the show as well.
And I mentioned that I would be very afraid to ask someone in South Africa to appear on the show because it's forbidden.
And they would be subject to, you know, harassment or God knows what other fate for speaking out against the government while they're still in South Africa.
That's certainly true.
Shows you so much about the censorship in South Africa.
One quick question, then we'll go right back to the phones.
A black person at your age, would they be subjected to any kind of military obligation?
No, no, it's purely voluntary.
It's only compulsory for white people.
The government would never make the black people serve in the military because obviously why should they?
To perpetuate the system of apartheid, you know, it's totally illogical, you know.
It is, but at the same time, that practice is in itself an admission of the true intent of their system.
Exactly, exactly.
Now, what happens, I'm just curious, what happens to a black person that does volunteer for the military?
There are reserves.
They serve in limited capacities.
They're not usually on the front lines.
We have, you know, a couple of, you know, a portion of black people that serve in the South African military.
It's a nice, secure job, you know, they pay well.
I don't know if those people really have too much of a conscience.
I would feel very, very, I don't know, concerned, you know, being a black person and going into a township and raiding a black house.
I would feel just, as a white person, I'd feel very guilty doing that, but I don't know.
I can't really speak for other people.
You're listening to WBAI, New York City.
Our number is 212-279-3400.
We're speaking with Craig Demmer, a white South African here in New York who has opposed the draft and faces a six-year jail sentence
and also faces being forcibly returned to South Africa by the United States.
Actually, you face quite a bit more than six years if all those things you were mentioning before come to fruition.
I believe something like 30 years in jail for advocating the things.
This radio program would probably carry a couple of years.
It probably would.
Okay, well, hopefully they won't get a tape of it.
Let's go back to the phones.
Good morning.
Is anyone there?
Occasionally that happens.
Our listeners fall asleep.
And, you know, we're sorry that we keep the phones ringing so long, but, you know, at least we don't pick them up and put you on hold like other radio stations do.
You don't have to pay for it until we pick up the phone.
The only thing we ask is that you stay awake.
Good morning.
Hi, good evening.
Hi, I wanted to ask – let me turn on the radio.
I wanted to ask the South Africans a question.
It's just so interesting.
One is, how does your family react to this back in South Africa and its publicity about you?
Two, regarding the AIDS march, things like that.
In South Africa, how would a group like Act Up?
How would that be tolerated or someone who's just plainly, just openly homosexual but not a political activist, how would they react to that in South Africa?
Go ahead, Craig.
Okay.
Those are two issues.
First one, I'll deal with this regard to my family and their reaction.
I didn't tell them when I came over why I was coming over and what I did, and that was seek political asylum because I knew the way they felt,
and I just knew it would create more, you know, harder feelings between us.
They learned about it, as I said, a while ago when they opened the papers in South Africa and had read my story.
It's created, you know, a rather difficult situation because we represent, you know, different ends of, you know, opinion, political spectrum of opinion.
You know, we're 9,000 miles apart.
I haven't seen them for five years, and I love my family dearly.
You know, it's very hard.
It's really hard.
You know, what can I say?
The other issue you mentioned, like ACT UP demonstration, that's getting a little bit off the topic because that's not really racism and what I'm speaking about, and that's apartheid.
But, you know, it's very difficult in South Africa to demonstrate.
Something like that would not be tolerated in South Africa whatsoever, regardless of the fact that it's to do with AIDS or, you know, it doesn't matter what the topic is.
You know, you cannot go and chain yourself to pews or walk along the street with a placard.
That's totally forbidden.
What would they do?
They'd throw you into jail.
Detention without trial.
But what if a lot of people would do?
I'm not just talking about one or two.
Yes, a lot of people.
Hundreds, you know, during the state of emergency, hundreds of, like, schoolchildren have been put into, you know, trucks and hurled off to prison.
But I'm talking about white establishment people if they protest.
They are just as liable under the, you know, legislation to be put into jail for, you know, anything like that.
I see.
It sounds very, I mean, it sounds very cruel over there.
It's a very repressive system in South Africa, you know.
How do they deal with AIDS in itself?
I'm just curious.
I mean, I hate to take you off the topic, but I'm just, because, I mean, we hear so much about the blacks in South Africa.
How do they, I'm just curious about all these, how do they deal with AIDS and things like that, and how does the Jewish population fare over there and things like that?
Well, I find, to be honest, I'm going to find it rather difficult to answer that question, because I haven't been back, you know, for over four years now.
And a lot has happened, I think, you know, during that time.
So I don't know if I really am in a position to address that question.
In South Africa, the way things are, you know, they don't encourage dissent or, you know, to express your opinion.
Anything that's in opposition to the government's thinking is met with, you know, imprisonment or, you know, harassment or house arrest.
It's a very repressive system.
I see.
And just one last question, I know, because I don't want to keep the lines tied up.
I know there's a difference between the Africana whites and the English settlers.
Is there a big difference, and also what's your family?
Yeah, that's a very good question, actually.
You know, racism is so ingrained in South Africa that it even affects people of the same race.
In South Africa, we have two languages, official languages, and that's English and Afrikaans.
I'm from an English background.
The English people in South Africa tend to be more liberal.
My family's not an exception, I suppose.
And then you have the Afrikaners, and they form the bulk of government supporters.
The government of South Africa is made of, you know, white minority, and most of them are Afrikaans, of Afrikaans descent.
I see.
Well, thank you very much, and good luck, and you have a lot of courage.
Thank you very much.
Bye-bye.
Thanks for calling.
279-3400.
You know, that caller did touch upon a good point there, as far as what would happen if a lot of people demonstrated.
Now, you say they would all be thrown into jail.
Fine.
You know, that's something I would probably expect in South Africa.
But at what point do things start changing?
Because that's what's going to have to happen in order for things to change.
People are going to have to continually march in the street.
I mean, it's happening in Eastern Europe.
It's happened in the United States in the 60s and 70s.
Eventually, if anything is going to change, it's going to have to be from within for the most part.
Obviously, we can exert a lot of pressure here, and other countries can, you know, exert a lot of pressure.
But things have to change there.
There have to be organized demonstrations, primarily on the black side.
But certainly, the white side would move this forward a lot faster if something was happening on a continual basis.
At what point do you think things will start to change?
You know, Manuel, things were really getting really bad in South Africa in the early 80s.
You know, there's increasing opposition and dissatisfaction with, you know, the whole system that exists in South Africa.
And as a result, the government reacted to that whole, you know, expression of, you know, what the people felt by imposing a state of emergency.
And it still exists.
And what does that state of emergency allow them to do?
It allows them to do absolutely nothing.
I'm talking about the government.
Oh, the government.
Oh, I'm sorry.
It allows the government to suppress all opposition to apartheid, to quell any internal disorder, anything that's viewed as subversive or in opposition to government policy,
as met with imprisonment or harassment, house arrest, et cetera.
So the state of emergency's purpose is to impose order in South Africa by whatever means necessary.
And that may include, you know, shooting women and children, which has happened.
Whatever means is required.
So the president at the moment has made a few changes.
And these are not, I believe, terribly genuine.
It's as a result of international pressure.
But the ironic thing is that I don't think it's really, you know, appeasing the black people of South Africa.
They know exactly what the situation is.
They know that, you know, President de Klerk's motives are not that genuine.
So I don't know how long it's going to, you know, quell, you know, their unrest or dissatisfaction.
Okay, let's take another call.
Good morning.
Good morning.
Is this WBAI?
That's what it is.
You're on the air.
Hi.
Okay, I wanted to ask about something that a previous caller had addressed.
And that is about support among the African-American community for Mr. Demmer's cause.
I'll hang up and listen to an answer.
Okay, thanks for calling.
Did you understand the question?
Yes, I understand that.
I would, I just appreciate any support, you know, that people could give.
I think the best thing, if they'd be interested in, you know, expressing support would be to contact Lucas Gutentag, G-U-T-T-E-N-T-A-G.
And he's with the ACLU in New York.
And, you know, submit any, you know, letters of support or, you know, any assistance that you'd like to give.
Address it to Lucas Gutentag, the ACLU.
And I'm sure the number would be in the phone book.
Okay, you don't have the address for the number?
I don't have the address, but I have the telephone number.
Okay, give out the telephone number.
Which is 212-944-9800.
Okay, and a lot of people calling that, offering support of any kind, would certainly be helpful to your cause, I imagine.
You know, they would be able to tell you where you can best channel your energies.
And I know a lot of people are upset about this, but we're frustrated because what do we do?
You know, we're here in New York.
What do we do to solve the situation or help?
You know, the thing that American citizens could really do is, you know, contact the congressman and, you know, tell them about, you know, what I'm going through, my plight and people and my position.
And maybe, you know, go through the system that you have in America.
You know, everyone has a congressman in their area.
And if they could, you know, just let their congressman know about what's going on.
And don't stop there, you know, because if we help Craig here, if Craig wins his battle, okay, that's something.
But there's still the system over there which needs to be changed.
Would you say the same methods would work for that?
Yes.
I mean, I would love, you know, people to advocate, you know, that the American government continues, you know, economic sanctions against South Africa and continues to apply pressure on the South African government.
People can also write to the newspapers, you know, like the New York Times, the Daily News, New York Post, you know, expressing, you know, their opposition to apartheid.
And, you know, if they would like, you know, support for my case, that would definitely be appreciated.
Whatever means, you know, that, you know, people in this democratic government that, you know, exists in America, you know, have at their disposal, you know, to use it.
Because, you know, it's a very, I know this sounds terribly corny, but, you know, this is a very, very, you know, it's a wonderful situation that we have in America.
It's a democracy and people have channels and avenues to go through, you know, to express, you know, however they feel.
And this doesn't exist in many countries in the world.
Now, before this came to a head, and let's say that things work in your favor and you're able to stay here, what have you been doing and what will you do to counter apartheid in New York?
I've been working as a social worker throughout this time, you know, in New York.
And I've been working with some organizations, you know, the World Council of Churches.
I will do my best.
And I'm doing right now all I can to educate people in America about the conditions in South Africa, what's going on.
Because I feel that the black people have absolutely no voice in South Africa.
And I feel, you know, I'm going to try and do all I can to give them a voice.
I know I'm a white person and I really cannot, you know, feel exactly what they're going through.
But it's better than nothing.
I feel that they need to be heard.
I think we're just hearing a one-sided story from the South African government lately.
And I'm going to do anything possible I can to just let people know, you know, what's going on in South Africa.
I don't mean to press you on this too much, but there are people out there that might say, yeah, you know, I want to do what Craig is doing and educate people.
How specifically do you educate people on South Africa?
The best thing they can do, you know, is to, you know, write to the newspapers, you know, expressing, you know, their support, you know, for opposition to apartheid.
They can contact organizations like TransAfrica.
This is a wonderful organization in America and it's like a watchdog organization and they exclusively monitor the situation in South Africa.
And they have, you know, like news bulletins and newsletters that they publish on South Africa.
If they want to learn more about South Africa, an organization like TransAfrica would be of assistance to them.
That's headed by Randall Robinson.
Another great source, if they want to learn more about South Africa, is a television program, which is on the air every week, called South Africa Now.
And I was on it a couple of weeks ago.
And this is on Channel 13 on Saturdays.
And it's a half-hour program, usually at 12, 13, noontime.
Who produces that? Is that produced here in New York?
Produced in New York. And it's aired throughout America and Zambia and I think Mozambique as well.
And, you know, if people want to learn more about South Africa, you know, firsthand or on the TV, you know, that's a great source.
Okay. Let's take another call. 279-3400. Good morning.
Yes, it's you. Go ahead.
Yeah, hi. I'd like to know, I'm very upset about the censorship in the newspapers, and so for me this is a great opportunity to hear from a white man, even though he was university trained, as he put it, in South Africa.
What exactly is the inertia, what is it in the white community?
I know it's a minority in South Africa.
What is it that they will feel they'll have to give up to abolish the system?
I hear it's predominantly Afrikaners who run the government, this and that.
But it seems to me, here in America, it's only the oppressed community screaming and the external forces that have even brought this into examination, the idea that apartheid is wrong.
It seems to me that there must be a community of whites there that would have been content to just let the thing go along.
So I'm asking him, because our newspapers are censored, what is it, like, is there a middle-class white community here, or is it all just leaders and then you have this slave class?
Like, what is it, for our understanding here, because we won't get it to the newspapers, what are the whites in South Africa that aren't in the government structure, that aren't the extremely wealthy?
What is it that they're going to be reluctant about to abolish apartheid?
I'll just hang up. It's a great show.
Thanks for calling.
That's a very good question.
The whites in South Africa enjoy one of the highest standards of living in the world, absolutely one of the highest, and that's because of the system.
The black people are, you know, used to further the interests of the white people.
It's just as simple as that.
The white people in South Africa are given so many different perks that black people are not given.
I'll give you an example, like, you know, wage differentials.
In South Africa, social workers and teachers, if they're white, earn much higher salaries than black people, regardless of their education.
They can have the same degree from the same university, but just because they are black or white, they would be given a different salary.
White people have much better social services.
White children do not have to pay for their schooling.
Black children do, and for an inferior schooling as well, I may add.
There's a lot of support, you know, for whites.
You know, there are lots of perks.
The government gives assistance to whites.
They just have such a great system set up to benefit the white people by oppressing the black people.
You know, the black people are the ones that are paying for the system set up for the white people.
You know, it's interesting mentioning the education.
In one of the propaganda tapes that I got from South Africa recently, they were going over the test scores of whites versus blacks.
And they were noticing with mock dismay that the black scores seem to be getting lower and lower.
And this could only be attributable to all the unrest and the fact that people are paying more attention to throwing stones and to improving their grades.
And, of course, it's only going to hurt them in the long run.
Sure.
You know, what's funny is they were sounding so incredibly honest, open and honest.
Yes, we have a problem here.
We must acknowledge it.
It's too bad these people just don't realize, you know, what is beneficial to them and what will hurt them in the long run.
And, you know, if the situation wasn't so tragic, you would laugh.
It is, which makes it so ironic that they're publishing a newsletter and saying, oh, there's a problem.
Well, why don't they change it?
Why don't they just give, you know, all – we have separate education departments in South Africa.
We don't have just one Department of Education, like in America.
We have a Department of Education for whites, a Department of Education for Indians, a Department of Education for colors, a Department of Education for Africans.
Now, this is quite mind-boggling.
And each Department of Education is given a different amount of money for education of the children.
The whites are given the most and the blacks are given the least.
Indians are given more than the black people.
This is the way it's set up.
What is your prediction as to what's going to happen there?
I've been waiting for this time bomb to go off for a couple of years now.
With a state of emergency, they've managed to keep things under control by all these horrific means.
Now they're using a slightly different tactic, which is making these few changes.
They're going to hope that it's going to appease the black people temporarily and also gain them international favor.
How long this is going to work remains to be seen.
I know for a fact that the black people are regarding these changes with a lot of caution, and they do not regard it as terribly genuine or significant.
I would hope that the international community views it the same way as the black people view it, because they, after all, are the ones that are most affected by it.
We're speaking with Craig Demmer, who is a South African here in New York, who has chosen not to enlist in the draft, as every white South African must do.
And as a result, he faces six years in prison.
He doesn't want to go back to South Africa.
The United States government is on the verge of forcing him to go back, because they do not recognize his status as a political refugee.
And I believe that decision, if it does go against you, could come as early as May?
Yes, I have a court date set for May.
I have a five-day trial set for May in June, early June.
I see.
Well, hopefully we'll be updating people on that as it draws a little closer.
I'm going to take a few more phone calls.
Craig, I want to thank you for staying up so late.
I know you have to be at work tomorrow morning.
It's my pleasure, believe me.
Okay, let's go through a few more of these calls.
You have the switchboard all lit up.
Obviously, there's a tremendous interest in this.
And I think most people want to know, you know, what is it like going through what you're going through?
And, you know, if not, but for the grace of God, go I, you know, that kind of thing.
You know, they want to know what it feels like to be in your shoes, and they can identify with you.
Well, Emmanuel, it's been so difficult.
I've had doubts many, many times.
I mean, I've had, you know, the State Department refuse to renew my work authorization while my case was pending.
You know, I've missed my family terribly.
I have no home.
You know, I don't have any of my friends anymore I used to have.
It's very, very difficult, and I don't know how I've stuck with it, but I have.
And, you know, I think that, you know, I have to do something to help those people in South Africa.
I hate to sound paternalistic or anything, but, you know, people in South Africa, black people, just do not have a voice.
And what I'm going through, as I said before, is absolutely nothing to what people have gone through for years in South Africa.
So I'm hanging in there, you know, and I'm just hoping that, you know, things will turn out okay, and, you know, people recognize that the system in South Africa is really terrible and really needs to be changed.
Okay, let's take another call.
Good morning.
Hi, are we over here?
Yes, you are.
Go ahead.
Oh, I'd say I have to turn my radio off.
Yeah, it would help.
Yeah, I didn't know you were on delay.
Are you interested, and you said something about wanting to get your situation publicized.
Are you interested in publicizing it to some of the daily newspapers that we have in New York City?
Yes.
I know some reporters, if you're interested, I know of some of them who work for the daily newspapers, and I know one who works for New York Magazine.
At the moment, any sort of support would be, you know, grateful.
I had an article printed on my situation a couple of weeks ago, as you mentioned, Emmanuel in the New York Times, and I've appeared on a couple of television programs.
But, you know, all the support I can get would be absolutely wonderful, you know, and if people have any contacts, you know, that would be great.
And if they could, you know, contact Lucas Gutentag at the ACLU at 212-944-9800 with any information, that would be much appreciated.
Okay, and what's your name?
My name?
Yeah.
My name is Craig Demmer.
Okay, because I can contact some of the people I know, and maybe they'll be picking it up.
But you said you've had something in the New York Times, right?
That was a couple of weeks ago, yes.
I don't have to contact my friend in the Times if you already had something, because they might not want to do someone else's, you know.
Yes, yes.
Did you hear about a recent decision?
It was publicized on many of the black radio stations in New York about some police officers who were acquitted of killing six blacks.
I think Emmanuel, if I'm corrected, I stand to be corrected, it was the same situation you mentioned, Emmanuel, in the beginning of the program?
Well, the article I read was a policeman acquitted of killing three blacks, but there's two situations.
It's the same incident, is it?
I don't think it's the same incident, unless you...
This must be a different incident, because this one, they were acquitted a couple of days ago, the one I'm referring to, and this was six blacks, including a couple of children.
And according to the radio stations, the judge said it's all right to kill blacks as long as it's within the law.
You don't know anything about that then, right?
No, I don't know anything about that, but all I do know is that, you know, since 1985, you know, over a thousand, you know, men, women, and children have been killed or tortured in South Africa.
So, you know, these reports, you know, in the media the last couple of weeks, come as no surprise to me.
Absolutely no surprise.
Oh, because that was something that I was hoping you might know something about, because unfortunately the radio just does like little sound bites, and they don't really give you ample information.
The fact that I don't know just shows how effective government censorship in South Africa is working.
Now, also, I'm wondering, have any of your friends or also people you were growing up with or people you were friendly with before you left, do you know if they were interested also in leaving South Africa as you had done, or were they too afraid to, or were they not as liberal or what?
Um, most of my friends were pretty liberal, um, at university, but I think a lot of them had an investment in remaining in South Africa.
You know, white people have a great system there.
You know, you know, you graduate from university and you have a very cushy, wonderful career plan, you know, that lies ahead, you're well paid, etc.
Um, most of my friends studied law or medicine, and they knew that they could just go and serve their two years and come out and then start a wonderful career and live a very privileged existence.
So, they would have to give up a lot, you know, for their beliefs.
Um, I don't judge anyone, you know, I'm in no position to do that.
You know, everyone's different.
But none of my friends, um, you know, did what I did.
But I'm curious, if you got sent back to South Africa and you were imprisoned, right?
Mm-hmm.
This may sound, if this is too sensitive, you don't have to answer it, but do you think you'd be tortured?
Um, there have been reports, you know, documented cases of torture and, uh, solitary confinement, um, for people, you know, that have been imprisoned as regards, uh, their opposition to apartheid.
Um, I would not, I would not like to, you know, test the, uh, authorities in South Africa, but it's entirely likely that they could do something like that.
You know, these people have tortured and killed children.
I know. I was just wondering, though, if you, if you thought that they might do that to you.
Uh, I, I'm desperately afraid that they could do something like that, because I've been very public in my denunciation of the South African government.
And I'm now, you know, doing something to, um, destroy the image they're trying to create.
And whether, whether they do or not, uh, it's a torture of another form.
You know, a very subtle torture where you just keep wondering to yourself, what's, what are they going to do to me?
You know, and they don't have to do anything, uh, for the torture to be very effective.
Mm-hmm. Well, I have, you know, a very blatant, uh, you know, prosecution available, which is I'll be imprisoned.
And then I have all sorts of other things like harassment, um, you know, limited job opportunities.
You know, if I had to go back to South Africa, um, I'm not, I wouldn't be very employable by the civil service.
I know, the only thing I was wondering is, because I know how irrational, um, uh, politicians can be.
Would you, do you think it's conceivable that they might, um, uh, try to, uh, have you publicized as a, as an attempt to overthrow the government,
or, or as a possible, um, spy, or just something irrational like that?
Well, you know, the government of South Africa is very irrational.
It's very hard to understand their whole motive, you know, in operating.
But, um, they, you know, they probably are regarding me now as a thorn in their side.
And, you know, that alone is enough grounds, you know, for them to, you know, put me in jail, place me under house arrest.
You know, God forbid, you know, knows they've, they've done a worse thing to people on lesser grounds.
I believe the caller asked if they've hassled your family in any way.
Um, my father is, um, he's employed by the South African military.
You know, he serves in the Air Force, you know, in a civilian capacity.
And he, I spoke to my mom recently, and she said that he has been harassed by some colleagues who heard about my case.
And that's one of my fears.
You know, I really didn't want, you know, to go public in South Africa, because I knew my family would be affected.
Um, you know, it's, it's, it's, it's not, not easy, you know, I don't want that to happen.
Let me just throw a theoretical, uh, situation out to you.
If, um, if somehow strings were pulled, and, uh, you were given a promise that you could go back to South Africa and not face any jail time, what would you do?
Um, I quite, I don't know.
I really don't know.
Um, it'd be great I wouldn't be sentenced to jail.
You know, that'd be wonderful.
I could get my friends and family again.
Um, but then I'd also, you know, I'd face that persecution.
I'd face, you know, the harassment, it'd be very difficult for me to get a job.
You know, there are lots of people in South Africa that are very conservative and, uh, are definitely, you know, um, an opposition to, you know, my, you know, views, um, white people.
Um, the whole climate in South Africa would not be very, very, you know, comfortable, you know, if I went back just amongst people that I know and family and, and, and, you know, work people.
Are you saying the climate wouldn't be acceptable even if there was no harassment?
There was no prison sentence that awaited me.
Uh, there would, there would, there would probably be something else.
Um, you know, um, recently, last, uh, a couple of months ago, a South African came over and received political asylum, a similar case to mine.
And he received asylum on the grounds that he faced persecution if he went back home.
Um, and the work era, you know, he...
He was what?
He was granted asylum.
Oh, he was granted asylum.
Granted asylum a couple of months ago, um, because, um, he demonstrated that, um, if he returned to South Africa, the civil service would be prejudiced and, you know, placing him in a job because he opposed apartheid.
So, you know, if I went back and, uh, I wouldn't get a prison sentence, I, I would be subject to other forms of persecution.
But I'm saying, ironically, if, if the U.S. didn't grant you asylum, you might, uh, consider just going to Canada and starting the process all over again.
That's a possibility.
Just don't go back just because the U.S. is, you don't.
You can go to Canada, and I guess from Canada you can possibly, uh, go to, uh, uh, Mexico.
I mean, just keep going, uh, uh, if, if the government don't grant you asylum.
But, uh, whatever you do, don't feel compelled that you have to go back.
I'm sure you could be creative about, you know, your survival.
Yeah, you know, I, I'm just trying to take one day at a time.
You know, those are alternatives in the future that I could look at.
Um, definitely consider that because you, when you think about it, you literally don't have to go back.
Well, um, usually when you go through deportation hearings, you know, the State Department orders you to go back to the country where you came from.
But sometimes you have, um, a choice.
You can designate a country that you wish to go to.
Thank you for that.
That is, like, something left in the future.
I cannot deal with that yet.
My, my aim now is just to fight to stay in America and hopefully, you know, spread the word about what's happening in South Africa.
I'm doing this for a purpose.
I want to educate people, you know.
All right, good luck.
And I'll call my friend at New York Magazine.
Thank you very much.
Thank you.
Thanks for calling.
And if, uh, if people listening who have those kind of connections can do all they can, not just for, uh, for this case, but for anything that, uh, that requires, uh, justice.
You know, uh, whether it's a, the South African, uh, issue in, in general, whether it's, uh, the AIDS issue, whether it's, uh, anything that involves justice, involves thinking, involves action of some sort.
Because, uh, we're the ones that are out there.
We're the ones that can make the difference.
And, uh, we're the ones that have to make the difference.
Okay, I'm going to, uh, give Craig a chance to, uh, uh, to get a drink of water or something, uh, because we've been going for quite a while here.
We have about another 16 minutes, uh, so we're going to take a three-minute break and go right back to the phones and, uh, hopefully we'll get to everybody who's waiting.
Uh, we're speaking with Craig Demmer, who is a, uh, South African here in New York, who is, uh, a draft evader, a South African draft evader facing six years in prison if he, uh, is sent back to South Africa, as the United States government is currently trying to do.
We'll be right back.
One, two, three, four.
One, two, three, four.
One, two, three, four.
One, two, three, four.
One, two, three, four.
Buh-buh-buh-buh
Buh-buh-buh-buh-buh
Buh-buh-buh-buh-buh
Buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh
Buh-buh-buh-buh-buh
Fish like sheep, bits her ass into a saucer
Don't throw your grass right exactly in the drum
Truth will chew down, but I can't still
It gets all white when the boat gets rough
So you don't show me off a sweat month
You stop reveling in your gestures
Everybody else says that's amazing, right, right
Who's quite content to come and bring you garbage
We're running out of sports, always have always will
We're just the next generation of emotional cripples
It's just our money out of sports
It's just our money out of sports
It's just our money out of sports
It's just our money out of sports
Those are the jam, or those were the jam, I guess they broke up now
A song called Running on the Spot
And again, like I'm always doing, if you were paying attention to the lyrics
You would hear some neat stuff in there
That's why I like music that means something
Music always means something in itself
But it's always good when there's that extra bonus of meaningful words
I was hoping we'd make real progress
But it seems we have lost the power
Any tiny step of advancement is like a raindrop falling into the ocean
We're running on the spot
Always have, always will
We're just the next generation of emotionally crippled
And hopefully we're a bit better than that
I think we are
I think we're bringing things into the limelight that deserve to be there
We're realizing our potential
We're realizing the power that people have
Whether it's people in New York
Whether it's people in Cape Town
Whether it's people in any corner of the world
We can make a difference
We can change things
And we just have to start
That's something that I'd like to be able to address
In this and future programs
Well, we are speaking with Craig Demmer
Who is a draft evader from South Africa here in New York
And we only have a few more minutes left
Our phone number is 279-3400
Craig, you ready for some more calls?
Yep
Okay, let's go to them
Good morning
Hi there
Hi Craig
Hi Emmanuel
I wish to offer my support
As a Vietnam-era draft resistor
Who faced imprisonment here
Let's see
You haven't mentioned it
But there is an organization in South Africa
Called the End Conscription Campaign
An organization of white draft resistors
That had been banned under the emergency
And unbanned itself a few months ago
And is now once again functioning openly in South Africa
I'm not too sure if they are illegitimate
I did know that they were banned
And I'm not too sure if they've been unbanned
I don't know about that
Unbanned them
They unbanned themselves
They unbanned them
Well, good for them
There would be much in South Africa, unfortunately
You don't unban yourself
The government banned
I think they were decided to
I think the group had sort of a rebellious sense
When they did that
Is that correct?
Exactly
Sounds like something the yippies would have done
Yeah
I know they're supported by the Warriors
This is just League here in New York
And other groups in the U.S.
Also, Emmanuel
You asked about the U.S.
High technology corporations
Didn't you a while back?
Yes
You know I'm interested in that kind of stuff
Some information
Information on this may be a bit dated
But essentially
Apartheid can't be maintained
Without the cooperation
Of U.S. and British
And other multinationals and conglomerates
Especially the high technology companies
For example
The passes
The identity cards
Have photographs on them
Taken with Polaroid cameras
Although Polaroid
I think officially
Isn't dealing with South Africa anymore
They still probably are
IBM
Through a ruse
Sold off their
South African subsidiary
So now
Instead of a subsidiary
There's simply another company
In South Africa
That buys and imports
IBM computers
If you have an IBM computer
And you need parts for it
You can still buy it
In South Africa
Controlled data corporation
Has a reputation
As being a liberal company
Here in America
Well they have
They've had
A gigantic contract
With the South African
Education Department
Now I'm not sure
Which part
Of the South African
Education Department
But they had developed
A massive educational system
To essentially
Culturally reinforce
Apartheid in South Africa
And the software
That was developed
In conjunction with that
Their marketing
Here in the U.S.
I can go on
Listing
One day after another
Of major U.S.
High-tech corporations
Without whose help
Apartheid would not stand
Okay well I'm glad you did
And I hope other people
Find more
The Computer Professionals
For Social Responsibility
I had a meeting on this
Three or four years ago
That I was at
And I know there are people
Who are at least doing
Heavy research
Into this area
Okay well I hope
You share that with us
Send it in to BAI
Or just publicize it
In any way you can
Try
And that's
That's what we have to do
You know we have to
Stay educated
We have to keep
In communication
Thanks very much
For calling
Good luck
Okay
279-3400
Good morning
Go ahead
Is anyone there?
Another one fell asleep
Oh well
I guess it happens
Good morning
Hello?
Yes go ahead
Oh I'm sorry
I almost fell asleep
Okay well
I'm glad you didn't
Um
I wanted to ask
Mrs. Brett
Craig
Pardon?
Craig Demmer
No
Um
A few years ago
I read about
Um
There were a great deal
Of South African males
Who were leaving the country
Because they really felt
Like you
That uh
They were sitting
On a powder keg
That they had gone
To Britain
Um
Some of them
Had taken their families
Is that still going on?
Um
That did happen
Um
In the 70s
Particularly
Um
England
And um
The Netherlands
Granted political asylum
To people
Um
In my position
Um
Since then
There have been
Fewer cases
Um
Documented cases
Of people applying
For political asylum
Um
I think I was the first one
In the 80s
Um
To apply for political asylum
I don't have any documentation
On how many people
Are leaving South Africa
But I'm sure
That's an alternative
Available to people
Um
Lots of people have
Um
White males
Have relatives
Living in England
All over the world
And they may have
You know
Um
Access to
You know
Uh
Citizenship of another country
Um
By virtue of having relatives
Living in another country
Um
So they don't have to go
Through a political asylum process
They can just go to another country
Because they have
You know
A mother or father
Or
A sister living in England
Or wherever
Or Canada
Um
I don't have any family
Living anywhere
But in South Africa
So
My only means
Was by seeking
Political asylum
Plus
You know
I think there's a
There's a difference
Between leaving the country
Because you're afraid
Of the powder keg
And leaving it
Because you're disgusted
With it
Yes
You know
A very big difference
I'd like to think
That I'm making a stand
Um
Uh
I could have gone into exile
I could have gone to
Um
Another country
You know
Um
Maybe England
And I think
I would have been received
Maybe a little bit more warmly
Than I have been in America
Um
And I could have gone through it
All very quietly
And nothing could have happened
And I would have got my
You know
Citizenship
And lived happily ever after
But
You know
I've gone through
All the legal channels
And I've made a stand
Throughout this whole thing
And
You know
I'd like to educate people
And make them aware
Of what's going on
In South Africa
I'm doing this for a whole purpose
Not just for me
I think you've
You've gotten through
To a lot of people tonight
I certainly hope so
Any other questions
From our caller
Um
Yeah
Would it help at all
If we sent letters
To you know
Places like Citibank
Or Manufacturers
Hanover
To protest the policies
Um
Sure
I mean
I think ideally
The best
Um
Place to send letters
Would be to your congressman
You know
So that they could bring this up
Um
That you know
Sanctions should please continue
You know
Against South Africa
Um
To place more pressure
On the side
For government to change
See what
What we need
What we all really need
Is a focus
We need to know
Who are the companies
Who are the organizations
That we should be boycotting
I mean
Look at the Nestle boycott
That worked very well
It worked extremely well
Because we knew
What they were culprits in
And we knew that
They were culprits
Here
We're not sure
You know
Are they divested
Are they not divested
There should be a very clear way
Of exchanging information
So that we know exactly
Who to target
The best organization in America
Is as I mentioned
Trans Africa
And they're based in Washington
And you could look up their number
And that's run by
Randall Robinson
And um
They are an organization
That monitors
The situation in South Africa
And they publish newsletters
And they're very influential
Uh
In Washington
Um
And if you
You know
Need any information
Or any focus
Or in any direction
They would be the organization
That could help you
Craig how long do you think
A part that would last
If uh
Full sanctions were imposed
From this country alone
How long do you think
It would last
I mean
Could it
Could it survive
Without U.S. support
Well the situation
In South Africa
The economic situation
Has deteriorated
Incredibly
Since I left
Because I know
When I talk to my family
They say how things have risen
You know
Unemployment's rising
You know
Things have really got difficult
Since um
Economic sanctions
Were imposed
And that's why
The President de Klerk
Has been making
These few changes
Is because
Of these economic sanctions
And the fact
That South Africa
Is becoming more
And more isolated
In the international community
I feel that
If we continue
These economic sanctions
It will place more pressure
On the government
To make more changes
And that's the best thing
We can hope for
Okay thanks very much
For calling man
Thank you
Okay we have time
For just one more call
And you are the lucky person
Good evening
Oh am I so happy I made it
Listen I have a short comment
First of all
I've been joining
Your program tonight
Because I'm an insomniac
And I just want to tell you
That just two short comments
When I went to Washington D.C.
To be brief
They fitted me with underwear
And it seemed like
The only time
People really come together
Is when they have sex
And it's unfortunate
That sex is an act of love
And the human race
After being on the earth
For all these thousands of years
Doesn't realize
That the highest form
Of human intimacy
Is love
And sex is an act of love
And it's a shame
That Jesus Christ
Taught this
He taught love
Study the scriptures
And the real message
And the real message of the Bible
Is this
Love your neighbor as yourself
Do unto others
As you want others
To do unto you
And we are a brother's keeper
Or in other words
It's cheaper to be a brother's keeper
Because if we all don't come together
In the real sense of the word
We're going to perish
In our own flames
Okay
Well that's a very interesting note
To end on
And I'm glad you called
Craig any final comments from you?
I would just like
As I said before
Be very grateful
For any support
That people could come up with
By you know
Writing to their congress
Local congressmen
Or contacting
The American Civil Liberties Union
In New York
At 944-9800
Or contacting
Any news media
Available to them
To you know
Spread you know
The word
You know
About my situation
Or you know
Just generally
The situation in South Africa
That would be really wonderful
Okay
Well again
I want to thank you
For staying up
Into the wee hours
To talk to New York
Because that's
Pretty much
What we've been doing tonight
And wish you all
The luck in the world
As far as
Your particular case
Craig is
I guess
A draft dodger
Is what we would call him
Here in the United States
That's correct
I prefer the word
Draft resister
Yeah
Draft resister
I mean I guess
That has a better ring to it
And he faces
Six years in jail
In South Africa
If he is sent back
To that country
And he's
Going down that road
So to say
In the United States
A judicial road
That seems to want
To send him back there
Hopefully that won't happen
Hopefully he'll
Get to stay here
In New York
And speak out
Against the
The sickness
Going on in South Africa
And even more
Hopefully
Something will change
Real soon
Over there
I want to thank
Everybody for
Calling up
I want to thank
Craig for
Being with us tonight
And again
If you want to
Write in to WBAI
If you like this program
Please feel free
To write in
And say so
I'm Emmanuel Goldstein
Our address is
WBAI 505 8th Avenue
New York
New York
10018
And my thanks
To Tom Whisker
Who has allowed me
To fill in for him
For the past three weeks
He will be back
Next week
For the weaponry program
And he'll tell you
All about the
Arts and Crafts Festival
Which is still going on
Go up there
This weekend
It'll be the
Very last
Weekend this year
For you to
Make it up to
To the
Arts and Crafts Festival
It's Columbia University
Friday
Saturday
And Sunday
Again
Thanks to everybody
Who called in
I want to wish everybody
A very happy
Holiday season
Remember
Stay happy
But also
Stay conscious
It's very important
That we
Not lose sight
Of those things
Going on
Locally
And going on
Around the world
That makes so much
Of a difference
Good night
We'll see you next time
We'll see you next time
We'll see you next time
We'll see you next time
We'll see you next time
Hey you
Hey you
Don't watch that
Watch this
This is the
Heavy heavy monster sound
Monsters from the
Eartage
Listen up you groovy girls
And chillin' chicks
Here's the horror
Hit the bubble
You're done
I called up the
Monster DJ
One night
Under the full moon
I said
Please play
Something gruesome
I wanna hear
A scary tune
He said
Hey man
That's my specialty
I can handle that
I can handle that request
I can handle that request
Hard stop and order
Halloween
Is what I like to play the best
The monster DJ
The monster DJ is on the air
Creepin' into your home tonight
The monster DJ
Has got the sounds
To make you scream and fight
He played
Harry
Bang
And the wolf
Man
The ghouls
And the
Kick
Of five
Mary's cemetery
And the
Tombstones
With a hit
I'm buried alive
He played
Tracy
Transfusion
And the
Blood
Fiends
Who ran down
His fearful
Voidly list
The scariest
Sounds
On the
Chill of the
Charts
From graveyard
Groove
To the
Transylvania
Twist
The monster DJ
Is on the air
Creepin' into your home tonight
The monster DJ
Has got the sounds
To make you scream and fight
Yeah, here it is
Number 13
With a silver bullet
Oh
Yeah
It's got blood on the tracks
It's got us in the wax
My radio started shakin' and gurglin'
I was rockin' for each terror tune
Blood oozed out from the speaker
And a level loud in the mood
So if your heart is beggin' for excitement
If goo rockin' is what it crains
Just tune in the monster DJ
The coolest creature on the airwaves
The monster DJ is on the air
Freepin' into your home tonight
The monster DJ
Has got the sound
To make you scream and fight
The monster DJ
It claws up and down
There's more door in store
The monster DJ
How about that, Emmanuel Goldstein?
Anyway, hi, did a great show
Now he has to face the horror
Of traveling home
At this hour of the night
Hi, this is Ed Banger
Once again here for
Monsters from the Id
On WBAI
New York
99.5 FM
Let's go straight to some music
As we always start out
With a lot of music
Right?
And we'll catch you
A little later
Okay?
Right on
Something wrong?
No
That's the way this song starts
I always forget that
I was learning
One more
Quick tugging on
That toy
I was learning
Yeah
Good idea
Think I'll get on
Out of here
I was learning
One, two, three
Believe in you, baby
Believe in me
I said
All I wanna do
Is have some fun
Pick it up
Pick it up
Come on down
Give it up
All I wanna do
Is have some fun
Pick it up
Pick it up
Come on down
Give it up
All I wanna do
Is have some fun
Pick it up
Pick it up
Come on down
Give it up
All I wanna do
Is have some money
跟你 jogar
Dirty meats
I'm hanging around
I was a dumb guy, baby, I was older
Ooh, classic fun
I let you do it
Someone I was older
Yeah