had officially served the U.S. notice that the current lease would be terminated and
not renewed, but did not rule out the possibility of a new agreement.
Rafael Alunan, spokesperson for the Philippines, sees the issue as one of national sovereignty.
Alunan talked about the 1947 agreement, which is currently in effect called the NBA.
We viewed the 1947 NBA as a vestige of the colonial era.
It was forged at the time when we had just gained our independence and therefore we were
in that gray area, gray shade.
We were in transition.
And I suppose it's looked upon by many of us, many Filipinos, to be a defective agreement
that impinged on our sovereignty and our independence.
Tuesday the Philippines said the U.S. had failed to pay over $200 million in compensation
promised under the current agreement.
While the U.S. agrees the compensation has fallen short of what was promised in the agreement,
they say the deal was based on the executive branch's best efforts to get the money, and
that Congress decides the actual amount to be paid out.
The Philippines responded that the U.S. best efforts were not enough.
The U.S. spokesman said special negotiator Richard Armitage would like to downplay something
as petty as money.
The United States panel, headed by special negotiator Richard Armitage, provided our
Philippine colleagues with a respectful hearing as befits friends.
The United States, for its part, emphasized its view that it had lived up to its commitments
under the 1988 review and is continuing to do so.
Mr. Armitage emphasized, too, that he is not an accountant.
He does not stand next to a cash register when conducting foreign relations, and he
does not put a price tag on Philippine honor or sovereignty.
The Philippines says as the issue of compensation cannot be resolved, the talks cannot proceed.
There is speculation the U.S. will offer food aid and use military equipment to make up
the shortfall.
An announcement is expected tomorrow, the last day of this round of talks.
Meanwhile, the clamor in the streets for the withdrawal of the basis goes on.
Millions of labor and students were joined by Catholic nuns in the most recent protest.
At such a protest rally in front of the U.S. Embassy earlier this week, a student leader
talked about why her group opposes the basis.
You can see through the military basis they can intervene in our economic, political and
cultural matters, especially in our government.
We are like a puppet that implements policies that are imperialist ideas and they are dictated
by the IMF, IMF World Bank.
Groups say the U.S. may be storing nuclear weapons on Philippine soil, that the basis
encouraged prostitution in the towns surrounding the facilities, and that the presence of the
basis actually causes tension, rather than ensuring peace and security.
One thing for certain, negotiations concerning the basis have caused tension, which does
not show signs of letting up over the long, hot Manila summer ahead.
Teresa Seven, Pacifica Radio News, Manila.
And you're listening to the News on WBAI-New York.
I'm Amy Goodman, and again tonight's top story, Joseph Fama has been convicted of second-degree
murder with depraved indifference to human life, but acquitted of intentional murder
in the slaying of Yusuf Hawkins, who was confronted by a gang of bat-wielding white youths on
August 23, 1989, and shot to death.
Fama was also convicted of one count of first-degree riot, three counts of unlawful imprisonment,
three counts of menacing, and three counts of discrimination.
You're listening to WBAI-Community Radio in New York.
I just have a few more minutes to go here on the rebroadcast of the evening news, which
was brought to you in part live tonight, so that I can ask for your support.
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the news, premiums that have gone very well.
We're asking you to call us in now and pledge your support to WBAI on this very important
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So far, Keith Mondello's jury has not come up with a verdict, and they have said they
were deadlocked several times, although the judge has sent them back to continue deliberating.
They're now sequestered in a hotel and will continue tomorrow.
We'll see if that jury ends up in a hung jury.
But as you know, Joseph Fama, if you've been listening at all tonight, has been convicted
of second-degree murder with depraved indifference to human life and acquitted of intentional
murder.
212-279-3400, just a few minutes.
A call-in tonight is a call-in for the kind of programming we did all night tonight.
I don't know if you got a chance to hear it earlier, but just after the news, when
the verdict came in, we opened the phones until 9.30.
We spoke with Attorney Colin Moore.
We spoke with Attorney Norman Siegel of the New York Civil Liberties Union.
And we had people, listeners, calling in, you voicing your opinion.
That is community radio.
That is a response in times like these, times like tonight, when a verdict comes down.
We want to open the airwaves to you.
And this is something that really no one else does.
If you tuned, flipped around the dial earlier tonight until 9.30, there was no one else
getting this kind of reaction.
212-279-3400, if you support this kind of radio, your radio station, give us a call
now.
I turned on the TV at 8.30 and 9.00 and saw nothing, no coverage of Bensonhurst, because
the coverage happened when the verdict came down, and then there was the 11 o'clock news
or the 10 o'clock local news, and it happened again.
But we brought you continued coverage and a chance to interact, to talk about it, to
vent your feelings.
212-279-3400, that's community radio at its best.
If you support that kind of radio, please give us a call now.
Let me tell you some of the premiums we're offering tonight.
We're offering for $55, Race and the Media.
It's a tract by Carl Ginsberg, CBS Evening News producer, talking about how the media
deals with race.
Going back to the Moynihan report and a look at the black family in the United States from
the perspective of Senator Daniel Patrick Moynihan, and how that has helped shape the
media's view of race relations in this city and in this country.
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Anyone on the line?
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We're asking for your support this late night, May 17th, 1990, Thursday night, our last chance
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If this is a program that you listen to, that you rely on for information, even for some
information, please give us a call now.
For a contribution of $60, you can get one of a number of books.
The Terrorism Industry, the experts and institutions that shape our view of terror.
It's just out through a lot of legal hassles.
It has finally been published.
In fact, it's almost as much as a contribution to become a member of WBAI.
We're offering that for a contribution of $60, just $15 over our regular premium.
The Terrorism Industry, there's one listener calling in right now.
Thanks so much for that call.
I'll read you from the back of this book by Praise for the Terrorism Industry by Archbishop
Desmond Tutu.
He writes, we've wondered why it was that Dr. Savimbi's UNITA in Angola and the Contras
in Nicaragua were freedom fighters lionized, especially by President Reagan's White House
and the conservative right wing of the U.S., whereas our liberation movements such as the
African National Congress and the Pan-African Congress were invariably castigated as terrorist
movements.
This book confirms our suspicions, our suspicions that there was a coherent, well thought out
policy by the West to exercise a selective morality.
It's a searing indictment of what the authors have called the terrorism industry.
In a well-documented, thoroughly researched scholarly study, the authors have demonstrated
the terrorism industry has been very much needed in the West as a cover for its own
activities and crimes.
And that is Praise for the Terrorism Industry, the book we're offering tonight from Archbishop
Desmond Tutu.
For a contribution of $60, you can get The Terrorism Industry, the Experts and Institutions
that Shape Our View of Terror by Edward Herman and Jerry O'Sullivan.
We're also offering The Fate of the Forest for a contribution of $60.
It's by co-authors Alexander Coburn and Susanna Hecht, developers, destroyers, and defenders
of the Amazon.
A beautiful book, yours autographed by the authors 212-279-3400.
And finally, a book we offered tonight, just as the verdict was coming down, an interview
we did not know that the Joseph Fama verdict would be coming down.
We had Larry White come into the studio for a contribution of $60.
You can get the book Merchants of Death, the American Tobacco Industry.
The last time we're offering this on the late night news, the marathon ends on Saturday.
This for a contribution of $60.
You can find out about a product in this country that kills 400,000 people annually.
That's 1,000 people a day dying of smoking-related diseases.
It's incomprehensible.
400,000 is more people than died in all U.S. wars.
212-279-3400.
Pledge your support to WBAI.
Find out about the American Tobacco Industry.
212-279-3400.
This book is by Larry White.
Very important book.
Not easy to get now, he feels, because his publishing house owned by the Hearst Corporation,
which owns many magazines that have cigarette advertising, did not want to promote the book
that much.
It was put out in 1988.
Very difficult to get now.
Only can you order it through a bookstore.
You can get it for a contribution of $60.
We just have two more minutes to go.
Most importantly tonight, the verdict in one of the Benson-Hearst cases.
There are still seven more verdicts to go.
This was the verdict on Joseph Fama, who has been convicted of second-degree murder.
212-279-3400.
We're asking for your support.
Please call in.
There's two listeners calling in.
Let's make it five.
212-279-3400.
The last chance you have to call in to support the late night evening news.
Is this a program you want to hear?
This is truly a vote for this programming.
When programming decisions are made here, these kind of figures are looked at.
Who's calling in?
There's three listeners calling in.
Thanks so much.
Let's make it seven.
In this last few minutes, let's make it seven.
Please give us a call now, 212-279-3400.
Give us a call.
Pledge your support to WBAI.
We need to hear from you now, 212-279-3400.
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to answer the phones.
So if you want to volunteer some time to WBAI, give us a call, 279-3400.
279-3400.
And Emanuel Goldstein will be having his special on in just a minute, the Fifth Corner, a special
on computer hackers and the First Amendment.
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We just have 30 seconds to go.
Please, we need to hear from you now.
Let's make it five listeners calling in.
No kidding.
You want the late-night evening news rebroadcast, sometimes brought to you like tonight, partly
live when we have a breaking story like the Josef Fama story.
Verdict in the Josef Fama case.
Josef Fama has been found guilty of second-degree murder with showing depraved indifference
to human life, but acquitted of intentional murder, 25 years to life.
His sentencing is June 11th.
We still have yet to hear from the Keith Mondello jury.
If you appreciate the coverage we've been doing, Julie Cohen down there tonight, Dred
Scott Keyes down there tonight, inside the courthouse, outside the courthouse, give us
a call now.
212-279-3400.
Usually, we save this kind of news for the next day.
We don't stay late night to bring you more information than the news at 6 o'clock on
the rebroadcast tonight.
It was too important to go home.
We're asking for you to support WBAI, your community-supported station, the only station
tonight that stayed on for two more hours after the news to continue to bring you coverage
of the Bensonhurst case, to open the phone so that you could call in and express your
opinion and talk with lawyers who could explain what the verdicts were about.
212-279-3400.
Just 30 more seconds.
212-279-3400.
There's four listeners calling in.
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212-279-3400.
You can get a coffee mug for $55.
You can also get Race in the Media by CBS Evening News producer Carl Ginsburg.
A look at how the media covers race issues.
Five listeners calling in.
Very, very good.
Thank you very, very much.
We want seven listeners calling in as we go on to Emanuel Goldstein.
212-279-3400.
Emanuel Goldstein, who actually comes from out in Stony Brook, saying that he tuned in
tonight.
And what did you hear, Emanuel?
Well, it was great to be able to turn to WBAI and know that I would hear something about
a breaking story.
I don't know if we've always had that dependability in the past, and we have our listeners to
thank for that, because without their support, we can't do these kind of things.
And for us to send a reporter out there to the scene of the trial and to report back,
it takes a lot of coordination, and we need to have this place operating smoothly in order
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your support.
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Merchants of Death, the American Tobacco Industry by Larry White.
The Fate of the Forest, Developers, Destroyers, and Defenders of the Amazon, signed by Alec
Alexander Coburn and Susanna Hecht, its authors.
Or the terrorism industry, the experts and institutions that shape our view of Tevr.
Find out about some of the backgrounds of some of those people you see on TV, those
so-called experts on terrorism.
Who are they?
Where do they come from?
How many years did they work for the CIA before they went on the air without being identified
as such?
Well, this is a story Edward Herman and Jerry O'Sullivan give you in tremendous detail.
Very well-documented book, 212-279-3400, all of these, each one for a contribution of $60.
Please pledge your support.
Pledge whatever you can.
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And now we're going to go on to Emanuel Goldstein, The Fifth Corner, his special on computer
hackers and the First Amendment.
Thanks so much.
Have a good evening.
I'm Amy Goodman, and keep calling in.
Thanks very much, Amy.
And this is The Fifth Corner.
Again, that phone number, 212-279-3400.
It's very important that we hear from you at this point.
You can get it if you really want You can get it if you really want
You can get it if you really want But you must try, try and try, try and try
You'll succeed at last
Mm-hmm, yeah
Persecution, you must fear Win and lose, you've got to get your share
Got your mind set on a dream You can get it, no hard if I say now
You can get it if you really want You can get it if you really want
You can get it if you really want But you must try, try and try, try and try
You'll succeed at last
I know it
Rome was not built in a day Opposition will come your way
But the hotter the battle you see It's the sweeter the victory now
You can get it if you really want You can get it if you really want
You can get it if you really want But you must try, try and try, try and try
You'll succeed at last
You can get it if you really want You can get it if you really want
You can get it if you really want But you must try, try and try, try and try
You'll succeed at last
You can get it if you really want I know it
You can get it if you really want Don't I show it
You can get it if you really want So don't give up now
You can get it if you really want But keep on trying
And you're tuned in to The Fifth Corner here on WBAI in New York
And we have something very special for you tonight
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion
or prohibiting the free exercise thereof or abridging the freedom of speech
or of the press or the right of the people peaceably to assemble
and to petition the government for a redress of grievances
Do you know what that is? That's the First Amendment, folks
That's the whole thing
Very simple, very short, and very much in danger
And you'll find out how
With regards to computer hackers, the Secret Service, the First Amendment
and how it's all going to affect you, tune in
Trouble is all over town, yeah
It's beluding and shooting and killing
And burning out, them burning out
Burning out your trouble
It's all over my hometown, yeah
It's beluding and shooting and killing
And burning out, them burning out
But where do I stand in this here crossfire?
And all in all, yes, I know happiness is nowhere on the ground
I ain't got no wings to fly on to the sky
But through the powers of the most high
But through the powers of the most high
I've got to be brave
I'm still alive to give your glory
I'm still alive to tell my story
Early, early this morning, I arose from my slumber
And when I looked through my belly-bottom window
They were all around, all around
I see no faces, I hear a false voice
It's ordering everybody
Just what to do, you can't make a move now
It's then I remember, Gigi and her baby brother
How they would suffer so fast
I'm the only breadwinner
Just when I scaled through a fence and over the wall
And there he was standing so big and tall
Said, don't make a move, else I'll shoot you to blue
He ain't never seen the dust of my shoes
He ain't never seen the lights of my shoes
And I've got to be brave
I'm still alive to give your glory
I'm still alive to tell my story
I'm still alive, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, yeah
I'm still alive
I'm still alive
Well, early morning anyway.
At times you don't want to be raided, let's put it that way.
There's a lot going on, a lot going on throughout the country
and most of it is completely unknown to most of us
because there's no headlines in it.
You see the headlines, but you don't get the story.
Tonight we're going to attempt to bring you the story
and we have a couple of guests that will attempt to clear things up
because they're very much involved in all of this.
And what is it that we're talking about?
Well, possibly the best way to introduce you to the subject
if you're not aware of what's been happening over the last few months
the best way is to look at the newest edition of the Computer Hacker newsletter called 2600.
There's a story in the spring issue which is going to be released tomorrow
and if you want to subscribe to this magazine
we're going to be offering a special deal for people that want to support this radio station
a little bit later on, so keep tuned in for that.
From the spring edition of 2600 magazine, the Hacker Quarterly
we have an article entitled For Your Protection
and folks, it bears listening to
because you may not be a computer hacker
you may not be a computer hacker, you may not be a technological enthusiast
you may not even care, but I can guarantee you
at some point, what happens to these people will rub off on you
make no mistake about that.
Alright, a year ago we told the stories of Kevin Mitnick and Herbert Zinn
two hackers who had been sent to prison.
It was then and still is today a very disturbing chain of events
mischief makers and explorers imprisoned for playing with the wrong toys
and for asking too many questions.
And we said at the time that it was important for all hackers to stand up to such gross injustices
after all, they couldn't lock us all up.
Well, it now appears that such an endeavor may indeed be on the agendas
of some very powerful U.S. governmental agencies
and even more frightening is the realization that these agencies
don't particularly care who or what gets swept up along with the hackers
as long as all of the hackers get swept up.
Apparently we're considered even more of a threat than we had previously supposed.
In retrospect, this doesn't come as a great deal of a surprise
in fact, it now seems to make all too much sense.
You no longer have to be paranoid or of a particular political mindset
to point to the many parallels that we've all been witness to.
Censorship, clampdowns, voluntary urine tests, lie detectors,
handwriting analysis, surveillance cameras,
exaggerated crises that invariably lead to curtailed freedoms.
All of this together with the overall view that if you're innocent, you've got nothing to hide.
And all made so much more effective through the magic of high technology.
Who would you target as the biggest potential roadblock
if not the people who understand the technology at work?
It appears the biggest threats to the system are those capable of manipulating it.
What you're about to hear is frightening, plain and simple.
You don't have to be a hacker to understand this
and the words and ideas are easily translatable to any time and to any culture.
These words were seen on a computer bulletin board,
which if you're not familiar with the technology is a device which people call up.
You take your own computer and hook it up to a phone line and make a phone call
and connect to somebody else's computer and read messages that other people have left there.
Hence the term bulletin board.
And this is a message that appeared on one of those bulletin boards earlier this year.
We can now expect a crackdown.
I just hope that I can pull through this one and that my friends can also.
This is the time to watch yourself, no matter what you are into.
Apparently the government has seen the last straw in their point of view.
I think they are going after all the teachers.
And so that is where their energies will be put,
to stop all hackers and stop people before they can become threats.
And this is probably... we really have no idea who that message was from
because you can't see the person that left it,
but in all likelihood it's from somebody under 20 years of age.
Imagine somebody under 20 years of age speaking about crackdowns,
about the government coming after them,
and about crushing of people who are spreading knowledge.
Welcome to America 1990.
This was one of the reactions on that computer bulletin board
to a series of raids on hackers.
Raids that had started in 1989 and spread rapidly into early 1990.
The cities of Atlanta, St. Louis, and New York
were major targets in what was then an undetermined investigation.
Now this in itself wouldn't have been especially alarming
since raids on hackers can almost be defined as commonplace.
But this one was different.
For the very first time, a hacker newsletter had also been shut down.
Now we'll be getting into that aspect of the case a little bit later on,
but suffice to say that, yes, a newsletter was shut down.
It wasn't 2600 Magazine. No, not yet.
They haven't gotten 2600 Magazine yet.
But they did get an electronic newsletter.
What's an electronic newsletter, you may ask?
Okay, it's the same thing as a regular magazine,
except it's something that you read on computer.
It comes over the phone lines to you, or it comes by diskette,
but it's what they call a software magazine.
And that's the only difference.
However, that difference was enough to get that magazine shut down.
People couldn't stop it.
People couldn't see the relationship
between written words on a computer disk
and written words on a piece of paper.
That's what we're going to be exploring tonight a little bit later on.
We'll get more into detail on that.
As part of this whole investigation and raids and all that kind of thing,
bulletin boards and computer systems all over the nation
were raided by the Secret Service.
We've now found out that 150 Secret Service agents were involved in this.
150.
And that rivals any investigation that I've ever heard of.
I think computer hackers are getting more attention than the mob these days.
And we have the press release from Operation Sun Devil,
which, again, we'll get into a little bit later on.
But in Lockport, Illinois, this spring, a strange tale was unfolding.
The public bulletin board system, known as a public eunuch system,
which is, simply put, a much bigger bulletin board system,
kind of like a network where lots and lots of people correspond
and send mail back and forth.
Sort of the bulletin board of the 90s, I guess you'd call it.
Anyway, the public eunuch system known as JOLNET, J-O-L-N-E-T,
that had been used to transmit certain files
that the Secret Service was investigating,
that bulletin board had also been seized.
And what's particularly odd is that,
according to an electronic newsletter known as Telecom Digest,
the system operator, Rich Andrews,
had been cooperating with federal authorities for over a year.
Andrews found the files in his system nearly two years ago,
and he forwarded them to AT&T
and was subsequently contacted by the authorities.
He cooperated fully.
So why was his system seized as well?
Andrews claimed it was all part of the investigation, but he added,
one way to get hackers
is by shutting down the sites they use to distribute stuff.
The JOLNET raid caused outrage in the bulletin board world,
particularly among administrators and users of public eunuch systems.
A system administrator for a system out in California
known as The Well, Cliff Figalow,
said the assumption that federal agents
can seize a system owner's equipment as evidence,
in spite of the owner's lack of proven involvement
in the alleged illegal activities,
and regardless of the possibility that the system
is part of the owner's livelihood,
is scary to me
and should be to anyone responsible for running a system such as this.
And there was quite a bit of outrage voiced at that.
But there was one really, really amazing aspect to the entire thing
that we have to really focus some attention on.
After the electronic newsletter known as FRAC,
and that was a combination of the word freak and hack,
freak spelled with a PH,
as many of you phone freaks out there know,
after learning of the FRAC electronic mail surveillance,
which is another chapter in this long saga,
yes, every bit of mail going to certain people
and every bit of mail coming from certain people
was watched and monitored by authorities,
well, one of the system operators of a bulletin board in Austin, Texas,
known as The Phoenix Project,
decided to take action to protect the privacy of his users.
I will be adding a secure encryption routine into the email,
electronic mail, in the next two weeks.
I haven't decided exactly how to implement it,
but it will let two people exchange mail encrypted by a password
only known to the two of them.
That's to prevent people from looking at private mail.
These are people that the mainstream press would call computer hackers,
discussing how to protect their privacy.
Not discussing how to hack, how to break into things,
how to protect their privacy
and prevent people from invading it,
from reading their mail and seeing things they shouldn't be seeing.
Sounds kind of ridiculous, doesn't it?
Computer hackers are concerned with these things.
Well, folks, that's a lot of what computer hacking is about,
figuring out ways to keep your privacy
in a world where your privacy is getting more and more precious.
Anyway, to get back to what the system operator on that bulletin board was saying,
I'll be adding a secure encryption routine into the email in the next two weeks.
I haven't decided exactly how to implement it,
but it will let two people exchange mail encrypted by a password
only known to the two of them.
Anyway, I do not think I am due to be busted.
I don't do anything but run a board.
Still, there is that possibility.
I assume that my lines are all tapped until proven otherwise.
There is some question to the wisdom of leaving the bulletin board up at all,
but I have personally phoned several government investigators
and invited them to join us here on the board.
If, however, I begin to feel that the board is putting me in any kind of danger,
I'll pull it down with no notice.
I hope everyone understands.
It looks like it sweeps time again for the folks.
I'm sorry, for the feds.
Looks like it sweeps time again for the feds.
Let's hope all of us are still around in six months to talk about it.
The new security was never implemented.
The Phoenix Project was seized within days.
And the clampdown intensified still further.
On March 1st, the offices of Steve Jackson Games,
a publishing company in Austin,
According to the Associated Press,
the home of the managing editor was also searched.
The police and Secret Service seized books,
manuals, computers, technical equipment, and other documents.
Agents also seized the final draft of a science fiction game written by the company.
According to the Austin American-Statesman,
the authorities were trying to determine whether the game was being used as a handbook
for computer crime.
Callers to the Illuminati Bulletin Board,
which was run by Steve Jackson Games,
received the following message after that day.
Before the start of work on March 1st,
Steve Jackson Games was visited by agents of the United States Secret Service.
They searched the building thoroughly,
tore open several boxes in the warehouse,
broke a few locks,
and damaged a couple of filing cabinets,
which we would gladly have let them examine had they let us into the building,
answered the phone discourteously at best,
and confiscated some computer equipment,
including the computer that the BBS Bulletin Board system was running on at the time.
So far we have not received a clear explanation of what the Secret Service was looking for,
what they expected to find,
or much of anything else.
We are fairly certain that Steve Jackson Games is not the target
of whatever investigation is being conducted.
In any case, we have done nothing illegal and have nothing whatsoever to hide.
However, the equipment that was seized is apparently considered to be evidence
in whatever they're investigating,
so we aren't likely to get it back any time soon.
It could be a month.
It could be never.
To minimize the possibility that this system will be confiscated as well,
we have set it up to display this bulletin,
and that's all.
There is no message base at present.
We know the inconvenience, and we wish we dared to do more than this.
Apparently, and we'll have this confirmed in just a moment,
one of the system operators of the Phoenix Project was also affiliated with Steve Jackson Games,
and that was all the authorities needed.
And we have Steve Jackson with us on the phone.
Steve, are you there?
Yes, I am. Hello.
Hi. Now, you heard most of that story, I imagine.
Would you care to point out what exactly happened on March 1st in your own words?
Oh, well, I got an early morning phone call from a very upset member of my staff
to the effect that there were federal agents searching our building
that wouldn't let anybody in.
And over the next few hours,
what developed was that we were being searched by the Secret Service.
They weren't allowing anyone in the building.
There are some pretty funny stories about their interactions with our employees as they came up.
We finally got into the building about, I think, about 1 in the afternoon,
and it had been gone through pretty thoroughly.
Some offices were not in bad shape,
some areas had been shaken down very thoroughly.
The warehouse was a mess, for instance,
because they had just gone through it tearing up cartons.
Can I just ask one question before you go any further?
Tell us something about what Steve Jackson Games is.
What kind of company is it?
Ah, okay. Again, at the beginning, Steve.
We publish games, adventure games, role-playing games.
The best-known role-playing game is Dungeons & Dragons,
although that's not one of ours.
But if you've ever seen Dungeons & Dragons,
you know the kind of thing that we publish.
Not just in the fantasy genre, but in all different genres.
We also publish a game called Illuminati,
which is about secret conspiracies to control the world,
and the irony of that just comes back and haunts me every day.
That's the game that our bulletin board was named after.
And if anyone has read the Illuminatus trilogy
by Robert Anton Wilson and Robert Shea,
or if anyone has seen The Church of the Subgenius,
then you know the kind of humor we're talking about here.
So the Secret Service took an interest in what you were doing,
and what was it that they seized?
They seized a particular game that you were working on?
Well, they seized material out of several of our offices.
They took two computers from here,
and they also visited the home of our managing editor
and took his computer.
And when we compared notes and put things together,
we realized that they had taken all of the computers
that had anything on them for a particular new game
that we were producing.
The name of that game was GURPS Cyberpunk.
It stands for Generic Universal Role-Playing System.
That's our big game.
And the GURPS Cyberpunk was supposed to be a world book,
a background gaming book for people interested in the cyberpunk genre.
Now, cyberpunk is a science fiction genre,
a high-tech, low-life.
It takes high technology and shows what the future will be like
if that technology is used often in a very oppressive and inhuman fashion.
Think of the movie Blade Runner or the Max Headroom TV show,
and there's some very good video cyberpunk.
Think of the works of William Gibson or Bruce Sterling,
and there is great literary cyberpunk.
Anyway, one of the significant elements of cyberpunk is computer hacking,
usually seen as a way by which the heroes hold their own
against an oppressive bureaucracy,
although sometimes it's a purely criminal action as well.
Anyway, in a cyberpunk future, you can do computer hacking mentally.
You can attach your own brain to a computer.
You can move mentally into the net and do all kinds of things.
And that is one of the things that our book was about.
So here we are putting things together
and realizing that the only computers that they have taken
are the ones with the cyberpunk manuscript on them,
that they've taken all the backups for those,
but they've taken all of the hard copy.
And we're looking at each other and we're saying,
was this what they were after?
And we still don't know,
because they adamantly refuse to give us any justification.
The standard line is we cannot comment on an investigation in progress,
meaning they don't have to explain themselves.
They're the Secret Service.
But the next day, when I was in their offices with an attorney
trying to get at least copies of all the files that they had taken,
without which we couldn't stay in business,
they gave me a lot of comments about the manual for computer crime,
the handbook for computer crime that they said I was publishing.
So yes, I think they didn't like that book,
and I think they came very close to suppressing it.
Now this is very significant,
because I've been involved in the computer hacking scene for a number of years now.
I've seen many, many raids on computer bulletin boards
and teenagers who are playing with their computers
and making free phone calls, perhaps, things like that.
But this is the first time that I've ever heard of an actual manuscript
being seized by the U.S. government
because they don't like what it's saying in regards to computers.
And that's what appears to have happened here.
Well, it looks like I had the honor of being the first.
I'm hoping to raise enough fuss about it that I'm also the last.
Well, let's talk about that.
Now, how come this hasn't been splashed all over the newspapers,
front page, that somebody's manuscript has been seized by the government?
Well, I guess it just depends on the orientation of the media.
The Austin American-Statesman picked up the story,
but their interest in it was publicizing the good work the Secret Service was doing
in hunting down hackers.
If you read to the bottom of their very long story,
their story was on the front page,
but you had to read all the way down to the bottom
to get the idea that there was any question at all about what they had taken.
Now, a couple of weeks ago, Newsweek did run a story,
which was, in fact, a very good story.
It had a couple of minor problems of fact which don't bother me at all
because they were really trying to get the story.
But overall, no, the headlines are being grabbed by the Secret Service people
who will send out press releases about all the damage being done by evil hackers,
the tremendous threat to every citizen caused by the hackers.
And therefore, I suppose this justifies whoever they run over.
So, in an attempt to round up all the hackers,
a lot of other people are going to be rounded up as well.
Sounds like we've heard this somewhere before, you know?
Yeah, yeah, it does sound familiar, doesn't it?
So, what is your standing right now?
Have you lost money because of this?
Yes.
Probably, my best guess is a total of about $125,000,
which was more than we had in the bank.
We're in a business that depends very heavily on what is the new product.
Game stores want to know what's new.
They took it when it was about a week away from going to the printer.
Well, this totally kicked the legs out from under our business as far as cash goes.
We looked at where we were and what we had to do,
and we decided that we had a choice between either just going out of business right then
and laying off half the staff and trying to continue,
and we did go through the layoffs,
but eight people lost their jobs the next week because of that raid,
and it wasn't their fault.
We're still in business.
About six weeks after the raid,
we did manage to get a rewritten game book out there.
We pieced it together from a page here and a loose computer disk there,
and because the game had been posted on our bulletin board,
some people had downloaded it,
and we actually got back one chapter, I believe,
from a user who had copied it off our bulletin board.
But we also did a whole lot of rewriting,
and we got the book out with a little note on the front
just telling people that this was the book that was taken by the Secret Service
and a note in the introduction telling people entirely what had happened to date
because I want the world to hear about this.
It's incredible because a lot of reports that have been circulating
give the wrong impression that it's a computer game,
therefore it's something you play on your computer,
but it's not that at all, is it?
It's actually a book.
How does the game work?
It's a book of game rules,
and a lot of the rules tell you how to play the part of a futuristic hacker,
but it doesn't tell you how to hack.
A comparison would be, oh, let's see,
like saying that a James Bond movie teaches you how to be a safecracker
because you see James Bond leaning over a safe and doing something to it,
and then it goes poof, and it opens.
Makes you wonder if you had a videocassette of war games,
would they have taken that too?
Yeah, well, you can't underestimate the influence that war games had
on the computer field and on hacking.
A lot of people never heard of hacking until war games came out.
That was an important movie.
We're talking with Steve Jackson,
owner of Steve Jackson Games in Austin, Texas,
whose company was raided by the Secret Service,
whose material was seized.
He still hasn't gotten it back,
and we're presenting this as part of a special program tonight on WBAI,
and it's also part of our fundraiser in the springtime of 1990.
We have a special deal for listeners who want more information on all of this
and at the same time want to help out the radio station
so that we can keep material like this coming to you.
For a pledge of $55, you will receive not only a year of the WBAI program guide,
but you will also receive a year of 2600 The Hacker quarterly,
and we'd like to see a strong response right off the bat
so that we don't have to spend a whole lot of time talking and asking for money
because this is a fascinating subject matter.
We have a lot more.
This is only the tip of the iceberg, folks,
only the tip of the iceberg.
We have a lot of details we want to get out to you,
and by calling 279-3400 now, area code 212,
and pledging your support to WBAI,
you will be getting information like this as it happens.
You'll be finding out things that a lot of other people don't know about.
There is very little way to find out these kind of things.
So for a $55 pledge, you'll get one year of 2600 magazine, The Hacker quarterly.
There's a big in-depth story about all of this,
the Steve Jackson raids, the Legion of Doom, LOD,
the newsletter in St. Louis that was shut down by the authorities,
and we'll be getting into that a little bit later on as well.
And in addition to that, you'll also, when things like this aren't happening,
you'll find out other things about technology, how technology works,
how you can use technology to your benefit, legally, of course,
but how it also can be used illegally, how your privacy can be invaded,
how your phone calls can be listened to,
and how you can generally be ripped off by things like the phone company
and other big, large agencies and companies.
So give us a call, 279-3400.
Let's get two calls, okay?
If we see two calls come in, we can go right back to Steve Jackson
and find out more about what happened with the Secret Service
and also find out a lot more about this particular story
because this is the biggest computer hacker crackdown in history.
That's right. It's turning into something like a mob, I guess.
I don't know. I don't know how the general public actually feels about all of this,
how they perceive hackers, because, to be honest,
I don't think I know anybody that's in the general public anymore.
It's something that's scary.
Manipulation of the media is scary, but it's also necessary
because we all have to manipulate the media to some degree.
We have to get the story straight,
and unfortunately, right now, the wrong people are getting the story straight,
or getting it straight in their point of view.
So, 212-279-3400, that's the telephone number to call.
A subscription to 2600 is yours with a pledge of $55,
that along with a membership of WBAI and the program guide for a year.
And let's get a couple more calls, 279-3400.
We'll be taking your phone calls, too, later,
but we do want to see a strong response
so that we can keep information like this coming to you.
Now, Steve Jackson, you're still there, I hope.
Still there.
Okay, survived that.
Tell us, where do you stand right now at this moment?
Well, right now, I'm pacing back and forth in my office
wondering how long I'm going to be in business.
That's where I stand.
The raid has cost us more money than we had,
and while we've kept our heads above water
over the ensuing two and a half months,
we're in trouble, and we're working very hard to pull out.
As a matter of fact, I'm not raising as much hell as I would like to
because my first priority has got to be
to keep the business alive for myself,
for the eight people who still have jobs here,
for our fans.
And that's pretty much a 24-hour-a-day job right now.
What kind of response have you gotten from the people that,
well, you described them as your fans.
What kind of response have you gotten from them?
And we have set the Illuminati bulletin board system back up,
and we get a lot of extremely supportive comments,
a lot of sympathies, an awful lot of
how can this happen in America,
and a lot of people saying that they're writing their congressmen,
so maybe something will come of it.
We've also had support from a quarter that I didn't expect,
and it was really heartwarming because it came from our distributors,
the companies that buy our games
and then turn around and resell them to the retailers.
Now, these people live and die by the bottom line.
They are your hard-headed capitalists.
But several of these hard-headed capitalists
just volunteered to make large payments to us in advance,
and then you just take a credit slip and work it out later
in order to get us through the first few really bad weeks.
And that was the thing that blew me away.
You expect sympathy from the guy in the street
when the government steps on you.
When you get sympathy from businesses,
the businesses will write a check to back up the sympathy.
That's amazing, and that made me feel good.
What was your feeling before all this started happening?
Did you think things like this were possible?
Possible, yes, but I did not expect to encounter them
outside of the Stephen King story.
I see.
Now I think Stephen King knows just exactly what he's talking about
when he writes about cold-blooded, short-haired guys
with guns on the government payroll.
Were you there when this happened?
No, I was at home asleep when the raid started,
and I got several phone calls about it
within about a 15-minute space.
I talked about it with the people on the scene,
and we decided that if I were to come out there
and stand in the rain outside my business while it was raided,
I would probably end up saying something very regrettable
and get taken downtown and might not come back.
So I came on the scene just as they left.
Incredible.
Now, how many games does Steve Jackson Games have
currently on the market?
Well, we keep things in print for a long time,
so I think our total list of products, not just games,
but things to go with games, would be over 100.
I'd say we have about 20 that are really active right now.
And where would people be able to find those kind of games?
In any computer store or...?
Oh, they're not computer games.
None of them are, so you wouldn't find them in a computer store.
Good point. I fell for that myself, didn't I?
Okay. Yeah, well, it's an easy one to do.
It originated in the Associated Press report.
It wasn't in the initial reports.
The Associated Press just jumped to a conclusion,
and then that's followed it everywhere.
No, you'd find it in a hobby or game store,
some of them you would find in a Walden Books.
Walden does carry our line.
Not the whole line, but they have some of it.
Well, where could people find the game that just came out,
the one that was raided by the Secret Service?
Let's see. Walden hasn't picked that one up yet,
so you couldn't find that one in a Walden Books.
Just call... I mean, look up games in your yellow pages.
You're in the New York area.
I know that the Complete Strategist chain carries them in New York.
I don't know whether Forbidden Planet does or not.
Okay, well, I'm sure if enough outraged people call these places
and ask for it, they'll eventually wind up getting it.
We'd love to supply all we can. What can I say?
Now, what's your next step?
You have legal representation.
Has the ACLU stepped in at all?
We have talked to the ACLU on the local, state, and national level.
The state and national level did not find the case interesting,
said that they only dealt with the class actions.
The local ACLU representative asked a lot of very intelligent questions,
but I haven't heard from them in a week or so.
I suppose I really should call back and rattle the cage a little bit.
That's kind of disheartening to hear that the ACLU hasn't taken an active interest in this.
I was disappointed.
I would have understood if they had given it serious consideration
and said, no, we can't handle it,
but to just be told on both the state and national level, no, we only do class actions.
That surprised me.
I did not think that that was the way the ACLU worked.
Did you call the Washington office?
Yes.
And you were told the same thing?
Yes.
Well, and if anyone out there has more information about this,
I'll tell you what I'm going to do.
I'm going to open up the phone lines for listeners to give a call in at 279-3407.
If somebody wants to come on the line now and talk to Steve Jackson live,
it's now possible to do that.
So give us a call, 279-3407, if you want to be on the air.
And give us a call at 212-279-3400.
If I sound confused, it's because our delay system is doing things it's never done before,
and I've – are you still there, Steve?
Yes, I am.
Okay, good. I didn't lose you, at least.
We're going to be continuing with this story.
We're going to be following up on the –
Well, folks might have heard stories about computer hackers getting into the 911 computer system
throughout the country, and we'll be zeroing in on just what exactly happened there.
Steve, did you hear something about that?
I've heard a lot, mostly from people who call me to ask what's going on,
and I say, I don't know, and then they tell me their version of what's going on.
I have seen, you know, government press releases that say, you know,
there's a conspiracy to destroy the 911 system, and that's one end.
At the other end, I've heard that, no, the only thing that's going on
is that there was a document floating around of information about the 911 system,
and it didn't have any computer code, didn't have anything in it,
and people have just blown all that up into a terrible threat
that would justify taking all this authority, and I don't know.
I'd love to know.
Well, that's a good lead-in for something that's going to sound awfully commercial,
but folks, if you want to know what really happened,
then your best source for that is 2600, the Hacker Quarterly,
and we are giving that to you with any pledge of $55.
If you want to give us a call, and you find that you're getting a busy signal
because all the call-in lines are now taken,
give some serious thought to calling and making a pledge,
because by making a pledge to WBAI, you're making an investment in free speech,
and I don't mean to sound high-handed by saying that, but it is true,
because if you don't do it, who is?
Who is going to keep this station going?
Who is going to keep thoughts like this on the air?
Who's going to tell you when the Secret Service raids publishers in the United States?
I mean, even as a kid, you know, that would strike a chord with me.
That would make me say, what the hell is going on out there?
This is not right.
And it's not right. It's not right to see things like this happen,
to see, well, first of all, to see computer bulletin boards shut down
simply because they're discussing things that the authorities don't like to be discussed,
but now, now it's going a step further,
and anybody that even writes something on paper about things that aren't supposed to be discussed
is subject to the same kind of treatment.
Steve Jackson Games is, I almost said was, almost was, but it still is,
an organization that puts out creative role-playing games,
not even on computer disks, they're books, they're on paper,
but the Secret Service raided them because they thought they were up to something else.
They thought they were up to something illegal,
and that gave them the grounds to almost put them out of business.
The final chapter is still unwritten here, but you can keep abreast of the situation.
Take advantage of this offer because it's only being made tonight as part of this radio program.
For a $55 pledge, you'll get a full year of 2600 Magazine,
starting with this issue, which is coming out tomorrow, the Spring 1990 edition,
and 2600 is making this donation to the radio station.
Not one penny is going back to 2600.
It's a donation to free speech that the magazine is making.
It's a loss of sorts, I suppose, but it's well worth it.
It's well worth it because if it helps out here, then it helps all of us in the long run.
So give that some thought, folks. Give that some thought, please.
212-279-3400. Support this. Support this exchange of ideas.
Now, let's exchange some ideas, get some callers on.
Steve Jackson of Steve Jackson Games in Austin, Texas, is on the line.
His company was raided by the Secret Service on March 1st, and let's take some calls.
Good evening. Where are you calling from?
Middletown, New York.
Middletown, New York.
Okay. What's your question?
I just want to find out, give me five seconds and give details on the name and stuff like that
so I can write a letter properly, okay?
Steve, do you have names?
You know, the names are all who I can talk to my congressman about.
I don't know who I'm writing about yet.
I'm going to put the phone down and run back to the desk.
Okay. Well, all right.
So what the caller was asking, basically, was for us to reiterate what we've been talking about.
Basically, Steve Jackson Games is an organization in Austin, Texas.
It was raided by the Secret Service on March 1st.
Well, did they ever say exactly why they were doing this when you asked them?
Did they ever give a reason, in their words?
The only justification that they ever gave was that this was an investigation of data piracy.
The only data that I know of that's been taken was mine.
It's an interesting side note, too, because many times computer hackers are accused of doing certain things,
and we find that the authorities, in their zealousness to prosecute computer hackers,
break all of the laws that they're supposed to be protecting.
They read people's mail. They break into computer systems.
They steal things from people's homes.
Whether or not they're stealing is open to debate, I suppose,
but I think you feel pretty much like you've been robbed, don't you?
Well, if I'd been robbed, the insurance would cover it.
That's true.
Well, I guess insurance doesn't cover Secret Service raids, does it?
No.
Well, that's something you learn about.
To answer that caller's question, Steve Jackson Games is the name of the organization that was raided.
It was raided by the Secret Service in Austin, Texas, on March 1st,
but there's more to this story that we haven't gotten to yet,
and we'll be reading excerpts from 2600 Magazine as the night goes on.
We're on for another three hours talking about this subject.
So, again, folks, we have all the call-in lines lit up.
They're all busied out, so if you want to support the radio station,
let's get those lines lit up, too.
Wake up those people in the tally room.
279-3400.
We'll try to get as many calls in as we can.
We also have more guests coming in later on.
We have more subjects to cover.
This is a very big story, and hopefully, hopefully, it's going to explode in the media
the way it should have exploded in the media in the first place.
Steve, do you have any sensation that somebody's going to write a story for a major newspaper about this?
Well, sometimes I think they will, and sometimes I think they won't.
On the one hand, we have had inquiries from media that haven't written anything yet,
so maybe there are people out there working on stories.
I've heard, oh, from the Wall Street Journal on one end of the spectrum
to the Village Voice on the other, so maybe so.
On the other hand, it's real clear to me that the Secret Service doesn't want this publicized.
They've made that very clear to me.
Can you go into that? How have they made that clear?
Well, let's see.
I still have some computers here in the office, and I'm keeping my notes on this whole story on one of them,
so let me just look here and get the date so I can get the story right.
It's a computer they didn't get to yet, huh?
Yeah.
Well, let's see.
Okay, yeah, this was on March 26th.
On that day, we actually got some of our files back from the Secret Service.
Not very many, and not in good order, and they weren't the current files,
but they did actually send us some files back.
So I called the Secret Service agent who had been in charge
and thanked him for returning our property,
and asked him when we could expect to see the rest of our files and our hardware.
And let's see.
He made a number of comments.
He said that one reason we didn't have all our files
was that they couldn't copy some of the subdirectories on the computer.
I think to anyone who knows how to use a computer, that's going to sound very strange.
There are several interpretations of that, including that I was not being told the truth,
or that I was being told the truth,
but that the person who was making the copies didn't really know how to use the computer.
I don't know which of those is more frightening.
I don't like the idea that the federal agents who are supposed to be investigating computer crime
don't understand how to copy a disk.
But some of the two-fingered typing that I saw when I visited the Secret Service offices here in Austin
was very frightening.
Anyway, going on with the things he told me,
I asked when we would get our systems returned.
And the agent said three things.
He said that some of our hardware would definitely never be returned,
that it was going to be confiscated.
He said that he did not like seeing front-page stories in the Austin American-Statesman.
And he said that in the future, if I wanted to talk to him, I could have my lawyer talk to him.
Now, I have to point out that he didn't draw any connection between any of these statements he made to me.
He did not tell me that my hardware would be confiscated because I had talked to the paper.
He didn't say anything like that.
So he didn't make a threat.
I was just left to draw my own conclusions from the things that he had told me.
And my attorney was told substantially the same thing when he called,
in the same words, that the agent didn't like seeing front-page stories in the Austin paper.
Well, let me just ask you something.
You said that there is certain hardware that will definitely not be returned.
If it's found out that you're innocent of any wrongdoing, how can they hold?
What is it, first of all, they want to hold?
Well, he didn't specify.
And a couple of weeks later, I received a call from the assistant U.S. attorney,
who, as far as I can tell, is the one who is giving the Secret Service agents his marching orders.
I don't know this for sure.
That's just the way it looks from the outside.
And he told me that I would get all of my material back.
And in a later call, he gave a date, but that date has passed and later dates have passed.
And the last that they said was that we would get all our material back on or before Thursday the 24th.
And it would be nice if that happens.
Of course, here I am talking on the radio now about it.
Of course, that couldn't possibly affect when they decide that they no longer need my hardware, right?
I certainly hope not.
Let's take another call.
Good evening. Where are you calling from?
New York City, Manhattan.
Okay. What's your question?
Well, I heard that basically this whole thing is related to a question of alleged piracy.
Is this a question of possession of pirated material or duplication and sale of that?
Steve?
Well, I'm still not clear on why they raided us.
There have been all kinds of things in the papers about how they're finding people doing hacking for phone fraud
and people doing hacking for espionage and people doing this and people doing that.
What we did was write a book about imaginary hacking into imaginary futuristic computers.
Uh-huh.
And basically they said this was a blueprint to encourage people or something?
Well, not in those words, but the words they used were that this was a handbook for computer crime.
So, yeah, I think you're probably right.
Uh-huh.
I work with a bulletin board myself.
You work with Illuminatus, I believe?
Illuminati, yeah.
I work with Tentra Red Flag in Manhattan.
I don't know, basically 212.
Basically this also concerns me because I've been watching the situation also.
Well, it's very strange that they would put it in these terms because it seems like they had no warrant.
They had no specification for this.
This all started, didn't it, about 10 years ago when they sort of said that the complexity of information storage and retrieval
would necessitate increased security, I believe?
Well, I'm not sure exactly what happened 10 years ago.
Oh, no, that's when it started, when it started to become a proliferation of a lot of this stuff.
The government made a proclamation to the academic community.
I think it received a distribution on the front page of the Times, a science section, I'm not sure which,
which said that due to the increased complexity and sensitive nature of encryption, computer security,
and information storage and retrieval, that they had needed increased powers to control it.
Well, that's a very scary concept because what you're basically saying is that the government is overstepping its current limits
or the limits it had 10 years ago on anything that has something to do with computers.
One of the comments that was made while I was in the Secret Service office the day after the raid
was an agent expressing the opinion that modems ought to be outlawed.
Well, from running a 24-hour system that gets a lot of fire from a lot of extreme elements,
I don't see what the government's problem is because, personally, there's also a lot of methods of protecting oneself
on the question of having someone intruding into your system.
Usually a lot of these so-called hackers that break into systems are people who have access to systems
and they're usually academic systems whereby they have some interreaction on a system level, I believe,
with the computer system itself.
In other words, it's not like calling up into a bulletin board and trying to break in.
It's usually something whereby someone is entering specific commands to the computer to get calculations
or something of that nature, basically on the structure of old CPM bulletin board type of things.
Can you tell us something about your bulletin board? What kind of subjects would you cover?
Well, basically we're socialist-oriented. We try to have people call in and deposit all types of democratic labor,
socialist, Marxist-Leninist, anarchist type of literature to have a basic discussion of issues which are relevant to our times.
We feel very uncomfortable with the circumstances as they now exist, you know,
because we feel it's very awkward to talk about a lot of issues until questions of basic democratic rights are discussed
in this country, which has never been done so.
I mean, they've come down on the Wobblies, the socialists, the labor movement in the 1800s,
the labor movement again in the 1930s, the communist movement, the black liberation movement.
And, I mean, what democratic rights do we really have without safeguards?
And with the increased amount of technology, it makes every issue almost irrelevant
because we have no ability whatsoever unless we have protection.
And that's very true because control of this technology is the key.
I think that's what these battles are going to be focusing upon.
Are the individuals going to have control over the technology or is technology going to be in charge of them?
That's really what we see with these raids.
A board like yours that's discussing issues that people have discussed for centuries
could conceivably be taken away from you because the authorities don't like what you're saying.
And it could be done legally because it's not considered speech.
It's not considered the same thing as pen and pencil.
Computer bulletin boards are thought of as something else.
And really, what you said before about computers being used to calculate and things like that,
think about it.
Computer bulletin boards, they're not even being used for calculation or figuring things out.
They're being used simply to pass messages back and forth.
What is the problem with that, you know?
You have to wonder when agencies take such a strong stand against people sending messages back and forth
and being anonymous and communicating ideas and thoughts and information,
why do they have such a problem with that and how come more people aren't protecting that right?
Well, the authorities are basically afraid that they can't control the technology at all.
I mean, they've created it.
They want to benefit from it, but they don't feel that they can control it
once there's a large amount of proliferation.
Well, I don't think the authorities have created the technology.
I'm seeing the authorities as glove in hand with industry and the corporate structure.
But technology in the hands of individuals is a wonderful thing,
and that's what I like to see more of, people taking charge of this.
If you have an authoritarian attitude, it's a very threatening thing.
I'm sorry, can you repeat that, Steve?
It's a wonderful thing, but to an authoritarian, it's a very threatening thing.
Oh, yeah.
Well, I've often said that to any form of government, an individual is the biggest threat.
Technology that the authorities and their enforcers don't understand is, of course, the most threatening of all.
Quite true, quite true.
And the fight to understand this technology is well underway.
I want to thank the caller for calling in.
We're going to go to another call here.
Again, folks, we need your support.
We need to continue to bring you programs like this.
And just ask yourself this question, where, where have you heard this before?
Can't really think of any place, can you?
Because other radio stations, other TV stations, newspapers, magazines, well, they, in all honesty, I don't think they figured it out yet.
I don't think they understand what the implications are.
But even when they do figure out the implications, will it sell newspapers?
Will it make headlines?
Will it make people tune in and bring those arbitrary ratings up?
Well, you know, that's not important to us.
What's important to us is making people think, making ourselves think, bringing out issues, bringing out new ideas and new thoughts.
And by supporting us, by supporting WBAI, you're supporting free speech.
Simple as that.
279-3400.
Area code 212.
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We take Visa.
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Yeah, it's Mastercard.
Visa and Mastercard to make it easier on you.
I know $55 is a lot of money for some people.
It's a lot of money for me.
But spread out over however many months that Visa or Mastercard will let you get away with, it can be something that you can stand.
And for that $55, you will get a one-year subscription to 2600 Magazine, the Hacker Quarterly, a magazine that deals with issues like this on an ongoing basis.
And unfortunately, at this point in time, really the only place you can find out about this kind of thing as it's happening.
And in addition to that, find out all kinds of neat little secrets about technology, about what the computer hackers are really up to, about what people all over the world are doing with technology, about how technology will affect you, how Big Brother is watching or will be watching.
2600 has reported on things like lie detector tests and urine analysis and all kinds of things that are just happening left and right, total system integration.
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I shouldn't say phone company.
There's so many of them now, and they're all ripping people off to some degree.
2600 is the place to find out how they're ripping you off and what you can do about it.
2600 is the place to find out how phone freaks and computer hackers do what they do.
So you can find out for yourself exactly what is happening, and you can read through the headlines.
And as a special offer tonight, as part of this fundraising drive for a pledge of $55, you'll get a year of 2600 magazines.
48 pages comes out quarterly, and it's...
Oops, that was it hitting the microphone there. That's the noise it makes.
It was, I guess, a must people have described this as.
All details about this whole investigation by the Secret Service and a lot of other things.
A review of the cuckoo's egg, for instance.
How to listen in on phone calls.
Not so much how you can listen in on phone calls, but how people could be listening in on your phone calls.
Something that I think we should all know about, and something that really isn't talked about very often.
So by calling 279-3400, you'll be doing...
You'll be doing three things.
You'll be educating yourself.
You'll be helping out WBAI.
And you'll be supporting freedom of speech and freedom of information and all that kind of thing.
279-3400, it's very important that you support us at this stage.
No matter where you are, Connecticut, Long Island, New York, New Jersey, Pennsylvania, give us a call.
212-279-3400.
And let's go to another call.
And Steve, I don't want to keep you up too much longer, so let's try to race through these calls here.
Okay, well I'll hang in there as long as they're having a good time with the questions.
Okay.
Tell the story.
Good evening, where are you calling from?
New York, Manhattan.
Okay, what's your question?
Steve, I have a couple of questions for you.
Okay, I can barely hear you.
I have a couple of questions and also a comment regarding the Secret Service and covert aspects of its history.
Right.
First of all, have you considered filing suit against them based on infringement of your constitutional rights of freedom of expression
and also for things like malicious prosecution and of course for damages?
I think about it every day.
Right now I don't really have enough money to keep the business going, let alone to spend a lot on attorneys.
If I can find help from someone with legal expertise who thinks that there's an important case here,
that would be very exciting and very welcome.
Steve, let me just break in at this moment.
If you want to give out a phone number for somebody to get a hold of you, feel free.
Okay.
Our office phone number is 512-447-7866.
Also, you mentioned that they gave you a date that they would release equipment back to you and they didn't,
gave you several dates and didn't follow through.
Are you recording your phone conversations with them and also when you go in to speak to them,
you should have a tape recorder on you perhaps so that if they say things which in fact turn out to be false,
you would have that to use against them?
That's an interesting question.
Of course, there's also the question of whether that invades their right of privacy and I don't know the answer to that.
Most of the promises that they have made over the past couple of months have been to my attorney rather than directly to me.
So on the one hand, I couldn't record those where I inclined, but on the other hand, there's a witness.
Let me just say that the laws governing whether or not you can record a phone conversation, they differ from state to state.
I know in New York it's legal for you to record a phone conversation as long as one person knows about it.
It may be the same in Texas, so if you check your state laws, you'll know if that's legal.
Yeah, I don't want to go to their level.
Also, I'd like to mention, although it may not be directly related to this action by the Secret Service,
that as listeners to WBAI may be aware, elements within the Secret Service were definitely involved in the conspiracy that assassinated John Kennedy.
They had custody of the body, the limousine had its windshield changed twice secretly while it was in their custody,
to change as information about the direction in which the bullets were supposed to have come in changed.
The body was altered under their custody.
There were people within the Secret Service at that time involved in that conspiracy,
and there are definitely right-wing, anti-democratic elements still within that organization.
Well, that's another show in itself.
There's all kinds of things I suppose you could go on about.
Well, you've got to know who you're up against.
Yeah, and it's interesting too.
People might be asking, why is the Secret Service involved with computer hackers?
And it was a number of years ago, I believe back in 85, 86, around then,
that control of investigation of computer hackers was transferred from the FBI to the Secret Service
because it supposedly had something to do with the Treasury Department.
The Secret Service is part of the Treasury Department,
and phone fraud, computer fraud is said to be something that would concern them.
Now, God knows what the relation is here in this particular case.
It does seem rather odd though to have members of the Secret Service investigating a publishing company.
When did you ever hear of a bureaucratic organization giving up power?
Yeah, well, not around here, that's for sure.
I want to thank the caller for calling in, and we have one more call.
Again, please give us a call to our support line.
I guess that's the wrong word for it.
We're not going to give you guidance or tell you prayers or something like that,
but we will take your pledge.
We have a bunch of people who have sacrificed whatever they do at 1 o'clock in the morning on Fridays.
I guess sleep is what most people do.
But they've given that up to be down in the tally room and answer your phone calls.
We have listeners very much like you.
In fact, we could use a couple more of them to come down and be a part of WBAI at any time of the day or night,
up until Saturday night at midnight, which is when we stop this fundraiser.
And they will answer your phone call, and they will guide you through the pledge process.
It's a very pleasant process, actually.
I've been through it a couple of times myself.
They'll just take your name and address and however much you want to pledge.
279-3400.
Remember, for that $55 pledge, as a special offer, you'll get the 2600 magazine delivered to wherever you want it delivered,
I guess, for the next year.
And you'll be on top of situations like this, which I think are fascinating.
I really think these situations are fascinating.
Unfortunately, though, they're becoming more prevalent.
We still have a lot more to get into tonight.
We're on until 3.30 tonight.
WBAI saw the importance of this subject, and that's why we have more time tonight.
Let's hope that our listeners see the importance in WBAI.
Because, believe me, there are forces out there.
There are entities out there that want to see another Top 40 radio station in the city.
I've got nothing against Top...
Well, that's not exactly true.
I've got some things against Top 40, but I don't want to say Top 40 shouldn't exist.
It can exist in its own particular part of the dial.
But WBAI is essential.
It really is.
You won't hear these stories.
You won't hear these thoughts.
And you won't have access to a radio station the way WBAI gives you access.
So, give us a call.
212-279-3400.
Make that pledge.
It's not a painful process.
It's quite pleasant because you'll be a part of this whole mess.
This whole mess of free speech.
And freedom of speech can get pretty messy, folks.
I think we're demonstrating that tonight.
Steve, what do you say we take one more phone call?
Sounds good.
Okay, here we go.
Good evening. Where are you calling from?
Yes, Manhattan.
Okay.
Yes, hi.
Excuse me, is this Elliot?
Elliot?
I'm sorry, I thought your name was Elliot.
No, it's Emanuel.
Emanuel, I'm sorry.
That's okay.
Okay.
Excuse me.
Great show.
And I also want, Steve, if he would give an address too.
And don't forget the others call us questions in terms of helping us to format a letter to our congresspeople.
I feel this is a very important issue to come around.
I had the opportunity.


...to the proliferating technologies which create governments dealing with certain ethical
issues.
And it seems that the UN does not have, say, like a future studies division, but it's something
that I think is very needed because if you look at the computer records, in other words,
the government right now is actually denying access to people such as reporters under the
Freedom of Information Act based on their deciding that computer records are not, because they're
not paper files.
In other words, they're not considered records by the U.S. government.
So I think that's an important issue.
They're not considered in the same way as regular data.
Exactly.
Exactly.
And this is very, very scary.
I also happen to be an African-American, and when I see the type of fascism just on the
police level and, you know, in terms of what we experience here, our history in this country,
it's something that, you know, the people who, if you would say that they're up in their
ivory towers or everything seems to be okay and I have nothing to hide, I have nothing
to fear, but, you know, we're really going toward a brave new world, if you will.
And just signing off here, I would like Steve, if he would just kind of hone in on some of
the really activist things that we can do in terms of your particular, your plight, and
where are you going from here?
And I'll hang up and listen to your response.
Thanks for your call.
Go tap.
Steve?
I don't know.
I'm new enough to this that I don't really know where the pressure points are that can
get a response out of a federal agency that is accustomed to working in secret and having
its own way.
I think that probably writing your senators and congressmen and just suggesting that they
make themselves aware of the kind of things that are going on is probably the best thing
to do is let them, I mean, all through our history, it's been a fight between people who
are really, really guarding the freedoms and people who will take them away and the tactic
that you see happening over and over again is making a great imaginary menace and then
taking away people's rights in order to deal with the imaginary menace, just like the Americans
of Japanese ancestry were rounded up and caged during the Second World War.
They were supposed to be a terrible menace.
And certain elements got enough people in the government very excited about that.
There was a terrible human rights injustice.
This isn't on such a gross scale, but it threatens anybody who uses a computer.
Well, you know, it doesn't have to be on a gross scale.
Any situation is arrived at by a series of steps, whether it's a small step, whether it's
a large step, it's a step all the same, and a step I don't think that we want to take.
For those of you interested in pursuing this further, you may want to get a pen and paper
handy, because we'll tell you all the facts as far as what is going on.
To sum up, Steve Jackson Games was rated on March 1st, was it?
Steve, are you there?
Okay, Steve, I guess he's off.
Oh, he's off the line.
Uh-oh.
We seem to have lost Steve.
We'll get him back in a moment.
Steve Jackson Games was rated on March 1st, 1990, in Austin, Texas, by the Secret Service.
Now, that's something right there.
A factual bit of information.
Nobody is disputing that.
And if you want to write a letter to your congressman, that is one of the facts that
you should include.
However, that's only one aspect to all this.
The media is the other big player here.
And if you alert the media, as Steve said before, the Secret Service was very upset by the publicity
that this story was receiving.
And keep in mind, the publicity hasn't exactly been the kind of publicity you're hearing tonight
on WBAI.
The publicity has been pretty much sensationalism.
And I'm using a nice word there compared to the words I could use.
Because that kind of story and this kind of story are something that the Secret Service
certainly does not want to see.
And one has to wonder why.
So, writing letters to the newspapers, calling the newspapers, calling the TV stations and
the radio stations and saying, why aren't you covering this story and giving them the facts?
That's something that will have an effect.
Because all it takes is one story.
One story on the news at six.
One story in the newspapers.
And then you'll start seeing results.
Look at yourself.
You're listening to this now.
You're hearing about this perhaps for the first time.
And you didn't know about this yesterday.
And you're hearing about it because one radio station is doing something.
Okay, so there's a bunch of things you, as individual people, can do.
You can contact your media people.
You can contact your elected representatives.
And certainly not least important, you can help support WBAI.
Because doing that will ensure that we don't miss a story like this in the future.
That we are here to keep our eyes open and to spread the word about situations like this.
So, give a call to 279-3400.
And also get a copy, get a full year subscription to 2600 Magazine when you make that call.
2600 Magazine has donated an unlimited amount of subscriptions to this radio station.
Because that's a donation to the cause of freedom of speech.
To the cause of education with high technology and all the assorted issues that go with it.
It's not just a technical journal.
Although there are sections of it that are very technical.
But it's also a social journal.
It's also the only way you're going to find out about the abuses of high tech by the authorities.
And those abuses are going on left and right.
We're going to get into the rest of this whole story in just a little bit.
But we want to see those phones ring.
Okay, we're going to take a short musical break.
We're going to come back.
During that short musical break, I intend to journey down to Talley and find out how we've been doing.
And it would sure make me happy to see the Talley people busy.
I mean, we need a strong response.
We need to keep this station going.
Because we're radio producers.
We're people that go out there and find stories like this and bring it to you.
We're not professional salesmen.
That's why we sound clumsy when we ask for money.
It doesn't bother me that I sound clumsy asking for money.
That's just the way it is.
I'd rather be able to pursue a story and recognize a story when I see it.
Than be a good salesman.
But by giving a call to 279-3400, supporting this radio station, you're giving us a vote of confidence.
And you're telling the world that free speech, free ideas, they mean something.
They still mean something.
Let me read this one more time.
I've been carrying this with me all day long.
And I've been showing it to people left and right.
And you know, a lot of people don't even know what this is.
They didn't know it was so compact.
The First Amendment, folks, here it is.
The First Amendment on this little piece of paper.
Complete and unabridged, Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof or abridging the freedom of speech or of the press or the right of the people peaceably to assemble and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.
Because you should memorize that.
You should memorize that and quote it when necessary.
In fact, I'd like to see a song have that as the lyrics.
Maybe a hardcore band would write that or something.
But it's so important that we know this, that we remain educated.
And if you get $2,600 delivered to you, you'll remain educated.
Believe me.
So give a call to 279-3400.
Make that pledge.
Support WBAI.
And help yourself out.
We're going to try to get through to Steve again.
And we're going to get to the rest of this story right after this.
Don't give me that brother, brother, brother, brother, brother.
The freaks on the phone won't leave me alone.
So don't give me that brother, brother, brother, brother.
I, I found out.
I, I found out.
I had a show.
What I've been through.
Don't take no first word.
What you can do.
There ain't no Jesus.
Don't want to come from the sky.
Now that I've found out, I know I can cry.
I, I found out.
I, I found out.
Some of you sitting there with your cock in your hand.
Don't get you nowhere.
Don't make you a man.
I, I heard there's something about them on my ball.
I, I heard there's something about, I, I don't.
Mine would make you a man.
Give me one miss, though, there may be your star.
I, I found out
I, I found out
Oh, holy Christian
Got nothing of you
Just keep you crazy
With nothing to do
Keep you occupied
Behind your side
There ain't no guru
Who can see through your eyes
I, I found out
I, I found out
I've seen the junkets
I've been through at all
I see religion
From Jesus to Paul
Don't let them fool you
With dope and cocaine
No one can harm you
Feel your own pain
But I, I found out
I, I found myself
I, I found out
Damn it, that's a good song
John Lennon from his first album
Plastic Ono Band 1970
Ooh, 20 years ago
I found out
And it's a quarter after one
You're listening to WBAI in New York
We found Steve Jackson again
Steve, good morning
Good morning, yes
We're all at the mercy of technology here
Yeah, for some inexplicable reason
We got disconnected
We don't know why
Maybe something's going on out there
I don't know
The response has been, has been fairly good
I think it can be a little bit better though
I really do
Uh, 279-3400
Show your support for WBAI
We do need volunteers
We need people to help us answer the phone
Uh, it's a lot of fun to answer the phone too
By the way
Uh, I never forget the first time I did that
Uh, 212-279-3400
If you want to donate something to WBAI
Or if you want to volunteer your time as well
Uh, that would be just great
Remember, for $55
You'll get a subscription to 2600 Magazine
And you can find out the latest
The things that you won't see in Newsday
You won't see in the Post
You won't see in the Times
You won't see anyplace else
You gotta wonder why
212-279-3400
That's the number to call
Steve, um
Why don't you give out your phone number again
And also, I was thinking it would be nice
If, uh, if people could be assured of, uh
Of, of getting a copy of, of the latest game
That you put out
The game that was seized by the Secret Service
Um, is there a place they can write to to get that?
Well, we always encourage people
To give their business to the local retailer
Because the community business needs all the help it can get
But yes, someone who can't find it locally
Can, can write to us
We will sell them by mail
Um, let's see
I, I, okay
Our phone number is
512-447-7866
If anyone out there has a modem
And wants to call our bulletin board
We'd welcome that
And that's
512-447-4449
And we could take a mail order
For, for the game
At
Box
1-8-9-5-7
Austin, Texas
7-8-7-6-0
And I'm not quite sure
Of what the price is supposed to be
I think it's a little bit over $18.50
So let me just say that
Anybody who sends us $18.50
That's the postage and handling price
Anybody who sends us $18.50
You know, tell them
Tell them Steve said that was alright
And, uh, what's
What's the name of the game again?
Uh, GURPS
G-U-R-P-S
Cyberpunk
Okay
And, uh, people that, uh
That want to communicate with Steve Jackson
About this information
Are encouraged to, uh, to call
To write
And to keep abreast of the situation
Remember
Uh, keep in touch with your local media
Keep in touch with your local elected representatives
Because they're the ones that really have
A lot of control over this kind of situation
A lot of power
And, um
I think that's something that we're going to have to demonstrate
In the weeks ahead
Steve, I want to thank you for taking the time to talk to us
And, uh, wish you all the luck in the world
Thank you
Thank you for calling
And, uh, enjoyed the show
I, I learned from it
I just wish I could hear the rest
So, you, uh, you all out there who can hear the rest
Have fun with it
Okay
Well, we're on for another, uh, two hours and ten minutes
So, um, again
Thanks very much for participating
And, uh, we'll be keeping people updated
As to, uh, what goes on in the future
Thank you, Emmanuel
Okay, good night
Good night
We've been talking with Steve Jackson
Of Steve Jackson Games
In Austin, Texas
He runs a publishing company
His publishing company was raided by the Secret Service
On March 1st
And a game
A role-playing game
And its manuscript was seized
And taken away as evidence
In some
Still as yet
Undetermined
Computer hacker
Case
It's very strange
It's very odd
And we don't really know where it's heading
But
We do know there's a lot more to tell you about
We've got
John Perry Barlow
A writer from Wyoming
Who's going to be, uh, our next guest
As we explore the
Emergency 911 system
The connections with the Legion of Doom
And the shutting down
Of a newsletter
All coming up here on WBAI
Remember
279-3400
We have to see those phones light up
We've got to see the support coming in
Because
Only through your support
Can we continue doing this
Folks
If we put commercials on
Do you think they'd let us
Do programs like this?
Think how many, uh
Corporate sponsors would, uh
Would find it
Rather uncomfortable
Dealing with a program that talks about, uh
Hackers
And
And
Individuality above all else
That kind of thing
You know, it sounds
It sounds nice when you
You know, when you talk about it
And
The concepts of individuality
Are something we should all be fighting for
But
Put into practice
It's
It's not profitable
It's not something that, uh
That you want to devote a lot of time to
Because it's
It's controversial
With a lot of people
You know, criticizing the Secret Service
On the radio
That
Comes down to
Criticizing the government
On the radio
And
You know, a sponsor
Would not want to
Be associated with that
So
We'd have to tone down our programming
To please the sponsors
It's a catch-22
If we don't have sponsors
We don't have a source of income
That's why
We need our listeners to be that source of income
Think of it
For only $55
For the entire year
You can be assured that you're doing your bit
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You'll be investing
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It'll be your way of
Keeping in touch
Finding out what's going on
In the world of high tech
And
Boy, what a fascinating world it is
A fascinating world
And a very scary world
If you don't know what's happening
If you don't know
How you can be monitored
And how your freedoms can be curtailed
Not just by having the Secret Service
Beat down your door
Every time you pick up the phone
Every time you make a banking transaction
Or use your Visa card
Every time
You do just about anything today
Wouldn't it be nice to understand all of that
279-3400
Make your pledge
And make a stand at the same time
Area code 212
We're going to get on to the next part of our program
First
Our public service announcement
The soldier boycotts
The soldier's pay
Obey
The sergeant adds on
Whatever he says
The sergeant will fall
His sergeant's pay
Obey
The captain till his dying day
The captain will for his captain's pay
Obey the general order of battle play
The generals bow to the government
Obey the charge, you must not relent
What are the neighbours and the prophets involved?
What are they saying in the public bazaars?
We're tired of the tune, you must not relent
At every stroke of the bell in the tower there goes
Another boy from another side
The bulletins at steady come in say those
Familiar words at the top of the hour
The jamming city increases its arm and nose
Terrible words continue to come
Through brass music of government
Hear those guns tattooed, parole on the drums
No one mentions a neighbouring war
No one knows what the fighting's for
We're tired of the tune, you must not relent
There's this different kind of chemical system
Two dogs and plushes
Keeps the water crystal clear
Keeps the balls smartly clean continuously for about four months
No rings, no straits, no stains
Just put the container in your tank and forget it
Every time you flush the chlorine crystals dissolve away
Rust of minerals before dirt rings and stains appear
Flushing sure beats brushing
The generals bow to the government
We're tired of the tune, you must not relent
Talk about corporate pressure
Do you know the Clash were forced to take out that middle part of the song
With a commercial about the toilet flushing
Because the company that does that actual toilet flushing got all upset
And said they didn't want to be associated with that anti-government song
Which The Clash put out back in 1982
And so they were forced on all the ensuing records
To eliminate that part of the song
Which I think is the best part of the song
But, fortunately, some of us bought a whole lot of the earlier versions
And saved them for just such a special occasion
But it shows you the power
The power that entities can have
When they don't want some form of expression to be voiced
And, certainly, there are many, many entities
That don't want our form of expression to be expressed
And we know, we can see by the response we're getting tonight
That there are a lot of you out there that do care
So, please, if you have not called yet
Make that call now
Because when we see numbers pile in
When we see lots of people calling
It gives us inspiration
It makes us want to go further
Because we know you're out there
We know you care enough to support the station
279-3400, area code 212
And keep thoughts like this coming
We don't want to spend a whole lot of time pitching
And begging for money
We have to, unfortunately
That's just the rules of the game here
But we don't want to spend a whole lot of time on it
So, if we see some calls come in
If we see some more calls come in
While this next bid is going on
Then we won't have to spend a whole lot of time on it
Again, 212-279-3400
For a pledge of $55
You'll get a full year of 2600 magazine
And you'll find out all about computer hackers
And what they're up to
And what the government is up to
And all kinds of other fascinating tidbits
All right, continuing with the story
We've been speaking with Steve Jackson
Of Steve Jackson Games in Austin, Texas
Whose company was raided by the Secret Service
But that was only one part
Of this whole big story
Let's go back to the 2600 story
From the spring issue of 1990
And learn about another magazine
Another electronic newsletter
And in case you missed the explanation before
An electronic newsletter is one that you get over a computer
You get it through the telephone lines
And it comes up on your computer screen
Or you get it as a diskette
That you put into your computer
And read the data that way
Same thing, though
It's information
Information being passed around
In a different way
Not on paper
But on disk
Of course, you can print it out on paper
And then it becomes on paper
But that's not the way it originally comes out
Anyway, in St. Louis
St. Louis, Missouri
There was such an electronic newsletter
It was known as FRACK
P-H-R-A-C-K
A mixture of the word
FREAK
Spelled with a P-H
For phone freaks
And HACK
Computer hackers
There's a newsletter about
Phone freaks and computer hackers
And what kind of things went on
The strange and mystical world
Of computer hackers
And this electronic newsletter
Would come out every
About every month or so
With all kinds of
Assorted files
And it was
Distributed worldwide
It could be found on
Just about all
Hacker bulletin boards
And while dealing
With sensitive material
The editors
Of this magazine
Were very careful
Not to publish anything illegal
Such as
Credit card numbers
Passwords
Sprint codes
MCI codes
AT&T
Calling cards
That kind of thing
You know
Because that's
That's not legal
And
Hackers know that
And believe it or not
Most hackers
Don't want to do things
That are illegal
Well
2600
Described
FRAC World News
Which was a regular
Column of
The FRAC newsletter
As a must read
For many hackers
And in many ways
FRAC resembled
2600
With the exception
Of being sent
Via electronic mail
Instead of
US mail
And that distinction
Would prove to be
FRAC's undoing
It now turns out
That all incoming
And outgoing
Electronic mail
Used by FRAC
Was being monitored
By the authorities
Every piece of mail
Going in
And every piece of mail
Coming out
These were not
Pirated mailboxes
That were being used
By a couple of hackers
These
Had been obtained
Legally
Through the school
The two FRAC editors
Were attending
And privacy
On such mailboxes
Though not guaranteed
Could always be assumed
But never again
It's fairly obvious
That none of this
Would have happened
None of this
Could have happened
Had FRAC been
A non-electronic magazine
A printed magazine
Would not be intimidated
Into giving up
Its mailing list
As FRAC was
Had a printed magazine
Been shut down
In this fashion
After having
All of their mail
Opened and read
Even the most
Thick-headed
Sensationalist
Media types
Would have caught on
They would have said
Isn't that a violation
Of the First Amendment
Reading their mail
Opening their mail
Seizing their
Mailing list
Shutting them down
Well
Those media people
Who understood
What was happening
And saw the implications
Were very quickly
Drowned out
In the hysteria
That followed
Because indictments
Were being handed out
And
One of the publishers
And editors
Of FRAC
Whose name is
Craig Nardorff
Who is known
In the hacker world
As Night Lightning
He was hit
With a seven count
Indictment
Accusing him
Of participating
In a scheme
To steal information
About the enhanced
911 system
Run by Bell South
And very quickly
Headlines screamed
That hackers
Had broken into
The 911 system
And were interfering
With emergency
Telephone calls
To the police
One newspaper report
Said there were
No indications
That anyone had died
Or
Been injured
As a result
Of the intrusions
Quite a relief
Isn't it
Unfortunately
It's not quite true
In actuality
There have been
Very grievous injuries
Suffered
As a result
Of these intrusions
But
The intrusions
We're referring to
Are those of the government
And the media
The injuries
Have been suffered
By the defendants
Who will have
Great difficulty
Resuming normal lives
Even if all of this
Is forgotten tomorrow
And if it's not forgotten
Craig Nidoff
Could go to jail
For more than
Thirty years
And be fined
A hundred and twenty
Two thousand dollars
And for what
Well we have
A copy of the indictment
Let's
Go through a little
Bit of it
It was part of the scheme
That defendant
Nidoff
Utilizing a computer
At the University of Missouri
In Columbia, Missouri
Would and did
Receive a copy
Of the stolen
E911 text file
From defendant
Robert J. Riggs
Who was located
In Atlanta
And known in the
Hacker world
As Profit
Through the
Lockport, Illinois
Computer Bulletin Board
System
Through the use
Of an interstate
Computer data network
It was further
Part of the scheme
That defendant
Nidoff
Would and did
Edit and retype
The E911
Practice
Text file
At the request
Of the defendant
Riggs
In order to
Conceal the source
Of the E911
Practice
Text file
And to prepare it
For publication
In a computer
Hacker newsletter
It was further
Part of the scheme
That defendant
Nidoff
Would and did
Transfer the stolen
E911
Practice
Text file
Through the use
Of an interstate
Computer bulletin
Board system
Used by defendant
Riggs
In Lockport, Illinois
And it was further
Part of the scheme
That the defendants
Riggs
And Nidoff
Would publish
Information to
Other computer
Hackers
Which could be
Used to gain
Unauthorized access
To emergency
911 computer
Systems
In the United
States
And thereby
Disrupt or
Halt 911
Service in
Portions of
The United
States
Okay
Let's
A look at
The indictment
Basically
Nidoff is being
Charged with
Receiving a
Stolen document
Now there's
Nothing anywhere
In the indictment
That even suggests
He entered any
Computer illegally
Or at all
For that matter
So his crimes
Are receiving
Editing
And transmitting
Now
What is contained
In this document
Information about
How to gain
Unauthorized access
To
Disrupt
Or halt
911
Service
Hardly
The document
Which was
Erroneously
Referred to
As 911
Software
By the
Media
Which caused
All kinds
Of misunderstandings
That document
Is quoted
In
Frack
Volume 2
Number 24
And makes
For one of
The dullest
Articles
Ever to
Appear
In the
Newsletter
And according
According to
The indictment
The value
Of this
Six page
Document
Is
$79,449
Now
You may recall
That
The Legion
Of Doom
Has been
Implicated
In all of
This
Well
Shortly
After all
These
Indictments
Were handed
Down
A member
Of the
Legion
Of Doom
Known as
Eric
Bloodaxe
Issued
A public
Statement
And it
Read as
Follows
A group
Of three
Hackers
Ended up
Pulling
Files
Off a
Southern
Bell
System
For them
To look
At
This is
Usually
Standard
Procedure
You get
On a
System
Look around
For interesting
Text
Buffer
It
Which
Means
Save
It
To
Your
Computer
And
Maybe
Print
It
Out
For
Posterity
No
Member
Of
LOD
Legion
Of
Doom
Has
Ever
To
My
Knowledge
Broken
Into
Another
System
And
Used
Any
Information
Gained
From
It
For
Personal
Gain
Of
Any
Kind
With
The
Exception
Of
Maybe
A
Big
Boost
In
His
Reputation
Around
The
Underground
A
Hacker
Took
The
Documentation
To
The
System
And
Wrote
A
File
About
It
There
Are
Actually
Two
Files
One
Is
An
Overview
The
Other
Is
A
Glossary
The
Information
Is
Hardly
Something
Anyone
Could
Possibly
Gain
Anything
From
Except
Knowledge
About
How
A
Certain
Aspect
Of
The
Telephone
Company
Works
He
Went
On
To
Say
That
Nidoff
Would
Have
Had
No
Way
Of
Knowing
Whether
Or
Not
The
File
Contained
Proprietary
Information
Now
Prosecutors
Refused
To
Actual
Damage
In
Addition
It's
Widely
Speculated
That
Much
Of
This
Information
Is
Readily
Available
As
Reference
Material
Now
In
All
The
Indictments
The
Legion
Of
Doom
Is
Defined
As
A
Closely
Knit
Group
Of
Computer
Hackers
Involved
In
A
Disrupting
Telecommunications
By
Entering
Computerized
Telephone
Switches
And
Changing
The
Routing
On
The
Circuits
Of
The
Computerized
Switches
B
Stealing
Proprietary
Computer
Source
Code
And
Information
From
Companies
And
Individuals
That
Own
The
Code
And
Information
C
Stealing
And
Modifying
Credit
Information
On
Individuals
Maintained
In
Credit
Bureau
Computers
D
Fraudently
Obtaining
Money
And
Property
From
Companies
By
Altering
The
Computerized
Information
Used
By
The
Companies
E
Disseminating
Information
With
Respect
To
Their
Methods
Of
Attacking
Computers
To
Other
Computer
Hackers
In
An
Effort
To
Avoid
The
Focus
Of
Law
Enforcement
Agencies
And
Telecommunication
Security
Experts
Ironically
Since
The
Legion
Of
Doom
Isn't
A
Closely
Knit
Knit
Knit
Knit
Knit
Knit
Knit
Knit
Knit
Group
It's
Very
Unlikely
That
Anyone
Will
Be
Able
To
Defend
The
Group's
Name
Against
These
Charges
Because
Any
Defendants
Will
Naturally
Be
Preoccupied
With
Their
Own
Defenses
And
And
Just
To
Clear

Outrage
Is
Nothing
That
Would
Allow
You
To
Gain
Control
Of
The
System
However
If
Your
Only
Source
Of
Information
Were
The
Major
Newspapers
And
The
TV
Networks
You
Would
Be
Getting
Quite
A
Different
Picture
Quite
A
Different
Picture
Indeed
And
The
Upshot
Of
This
Is
That
A
Newsletter
Dealing
With
These
Issues
Has
Been
Shut
Down
Shut
Down
By
The
Authorities
Because
What
They
Were
Doing
Was
Dangerous
Discussing
These
Things
Was
A
Threat
Curiouser
And
Curiouser
We
Have
On
The
Phone
Line
With
Us
Now
John
Perry
Barlow
From
The
Heart
Of
Wyoming
John
You're
A
Writer
But
You're
Also
A
Lot
Of
Other
Things
Maybe
You
Could
Spend
A
Couple
Of
Seconds
Telling
Us
Some
Of
The
Things
You're
Up
To
Well
I'm
An
Adult
White
Male
It's
Always
A
Good
To
Be
An
American
Gee
Let's
See
I
Write
For
The
Grateful
Dead
I'm
Writing
A
Book
For
Viking
About
Computers
And
Consciousness
I
Was
A
Cattle
Rancher
For
17
Years
On
A
Real
Ranch
Before
I
Got
Involved
In
All
This
Stuff
And
I'm
At
The
Moment
I
Find
Myself
Increasingly
An
Advocate
For
Computer
Crackers
And
Something
Like
A
Legal
Scout
Master
For
A
Small
Group
Of
Them
Very
Concerned
About
What's
Going
On
From
The
Stand
Point
Of
Civil
Liberties
I
Mean
I
I'm
Still
A
Registered
Republican
But
I
Tend
To
Be
A
Conservative
Of
The
Old
School
Which
Is
The
Best
Government
Is
The
Least
Government
Well
Let me
Ask
You
How
Did
You
Get
In
In
The
High
Tech
World
And
The
Concept
Of
Hacking
Just
Lucky
I
Guess
It's
Actually
A
Longer
Story
Than
You
Want
To
Hear
I
Think
But
But
What
Happened
Originally
Was
A
Couple
Years
Ago
I
Was
Asked
By
My
Collaborator
In
Grateful
Dead
To
Go
Down
With
Him
To
Apple
Computer
And
Help
Him
Give
A
Lecture
On
Songwriting
With
The
Macintosh
And
At
That
Time
I
Didn't
Use
A
Macintosh
And
Neither
Did
He
So
The
Whole
Thing
Was
Kind
Of
A
Fraud
But
Apple
At
That
Time
Had
Given
A
Lot
Of
Equipment
To
The
Grateful
Dead
And
So
We
Had
To
Get
One
For
The
Corps
And
We
Went
Down
There
And
I
Was
Going
To
Get
Up
And
Say
That
It
Was
Very
Nice
And
Get
Back
Down
Again
But
When
I
Looked
Out
At
This
Sea
Of
Dead
Heads
I
Realized
I
Couldn't
I
Couldn't
Lie
To
Them
So
I
Told Them
That
I
Didn't
Use
A
Mac
Intosh
I
Thought
They
Were
User
Promiscuous
And
Glacially
Slow
And
They
All
Hooted
And
Jeered
And
I
Sat
Back
Down
And
I
Thought
That
Was
The
End
Of
It
But
Then
Some
Months
Later
I
Got
A
Letter
From
Somebody
At
Apple
Saying
That
They
Wanted
To
Give
Me
A
Computer
And
I
Thought
That
Was
Fine
I
Could
Let
My
Kids
Use
It
Or
Something
And
Then
They
Didn't
Give
Me
A
Computer
And
Time
Went
On
And
I
Started
Writing
A
Series
Of
Increasingly
Peevish
Letters
About
How
It
Was
Perfectly
Okay
Not
To
Give
Me
A
Computer
But
It
Wasn't
Okay
To
Tell
Me
They
Were
Going
To
And
Not
Do
It
Finally
I
So
I
When
I
Got
Out
Of
The
Cattle
Business
And
Started
Casting
Around
For
Things
To
Do
Next
Just
Just
About
The
Wildest
Proposition
I
Had
Heard
Was
Writing
The
History
Of
Apple
Computers
So
I
Went
Out
And
Took
A
Look
At
That
And
That
Project
Has
Metamorphosed
Into
An
Interest
In
This
Area
I
Mean
When
I
Got
Out
There
I
Realized
That
Apple
Was
For
All
Of
Its
Tie
Dye
Trappings
Was
Really
Just
Another
Corporation
And
I
Wasn't
Sure
That
I
Wanted
To
Write
Any
Corporation's
Personal
Account
Of
Itself
But
I
Was
I
Became
Interested
In
The
Culture
That
Goes
Along
With
This
I
Mean
There
This
Whole
Field
I
Mean
The
Personal
Involvement
With
Information
Technology
That
Computers
Have
Extended
To
People
Is
Really
The
Most
Interesting
Thing
That
Is
Going
On
In
This
Culture
At
The
Moment
As
Far
As
I'm
Concerned
Especially
If
You
Care
About
Freedom
And
The
Ability
Of
People
To
Think
For
Themselves
And
Determine
Their
Own
Lives
So
How
Do
You
See
All
This
Is
Relating
To
What
We've
Been
Discussing
With
The
Rays
By
The
Secret
Service
In
Recent
Months
Well
It's
Perfectly
Predictable
Really
I
Mean
You
Know
There's
Really
Only
One
Contest
That's
Gone
On
Throughout
History
And
That's
The
Contest
Between
The
People
Who
Fear
Uncertainty
And
Want
To
Control
Human
Behavior
And
Everything
Else
That
They
Can
Possibly
Control
And
Those
People
Who
Find
Opportunity
And
Uncertainty
And
Want
Every
Opportunity
For
Themselves
You
Know
It's
The
Control
Freaks
Versus
The
Libertarians
And
It
Was
True
In
Athens
And
It's
True
Today
So
Anytime
You've
Got
People
Who
Are
Poking
Around
In
The
In
The
The
Core
Of
What
Has
Come
To
Be
The
Central
Resource
Of
The
Society
In
This
Case
That's
Information
You're
Going
To
Get
Other
People
Who
Want
To
Control
Their
Behavior
I'm
Not
Surprised
By
This
At
All
I
Guess
The
Only
Thing
That
Surprises
Me
Is
That
They're
So
Lame
How
So
Well
First
Of
All
What
They're
Doing
Is
Directly
And
Blatantly
Unconstitutional
And
And
In
The
Fullness
Of
Time
They're
Going
To
Get
Nailed
For
It
Also
My
Experience
With
With
These
Investigators
In
A
Related
Matter
I
Was
Visited
By
The
FBI
Not
Too
Long
Ago
Indicates
To
Me
That
They
Really
Don't
Know
Anything
That
They're
Talking
About
I
Mean
They
The
FBI
Man
That
Came
To
Visit
Me
Was
He
Had
A
Wealth
Of
Misinformation
Some
Of
Just
Purely
Fantastic
And
This
Was
After
An
11
Month
Investigation
I
Should
Point
Out
This
Is
This
Is
Something
Else
This
Is
Another
Thing
That
That
Is
Going
On
Having
To
Do
With
Another
Hacker
Investigation
Another
Another
Kind
Of
Hacker
Investigation
And
There
Must
Be
A
Lot
Of
Hacker
150
Secret
Service
Agents
Working
On
It
What
Do
You
Think
Something
Like
That
Costs
150
That's
According
To
Their
Press
Release
150
Secret
Service
Agents
Were
Involved
In
This
I
Didn't
Even
Know
There
Were
150
Secret
Service
Agents
When
I
Grew
Up
The
Secret
Service
Was
Just
To
Protect
The
President
By
My
Count
That
That
Gives
You
Something
Like
Five
Secret
Service
Agents
For
Every
Real
Master
Cracker
In
The
Country
Well
I
Guess
That's
Enough
To
Make
Them
Feel
Secure
Yeah
Well
Let
Let
Let
Read
Something
Here
It's
No
Wonder
That
They're
Getting
So
Many
People
Is
It
It's
True
Let
Let
Let
Let
Just
Read
Something
Here
As
Far
As
The
Most
Recent
In
The
Hacker
Raids
The
Operation
Sun
Devil
Which
Happened
Last
Week
And
We'll
Just
Add
This
On
To
The
To
The
9-1-1
Raids
Of
A
Couple
Of
Months
Ago
And
Then
We'll
Try
To
Figure
The
Whole
Mess
Out
And
What's
What's
Really
Going
On
And
Also
Of
Course
The
The
Frack
Newsletter
Shutdown
This
Is
What
Assistant
Director
Of
The
Secret
Service
Gary
M
Jenkins
Said
On
I
Believe
It
Was
May
9th
Of
This
Year
And
This
Was
In
Phoenix
Arizona
Today
The
Secret
Service
Is
Sending
A
Clear
Message
To
Those
Computer
Hackers
Who
Have
Decided
To
Violate
The
Laws
Of
This
Nation
In
The
Mistaken
Belief
That
They
Can
Successfully
Avoid
Detection
By
Hiding
Behind
The
Relative
Anonymity
Of
Their
Computer
Terminals
In
1984
Congress
Enacted
The
Comprehensive
Crime
Control
Act
This
Is
The
Real
1984
Not
The
Book
Which
Prohibits
Among
Other
Things
Credit
Card
Fraud
And
Computer
Fraud
Since
1984
The
Secret
Service
Has
Been
Aggressively
Enforcing
These
Laws
And
Has
Made
Over
9,000
Arrests
Nationwide
Okay
All
Fine
And
Dandy
Recently
We
Have
Witnessed
An
Alarming
Number
Of
Young
People
Who
For
A
Variety
Of
Sociological
And
Psychological
Reasons
Have
Become
Attached
To
Their
Computers
And
Are
Exploiting
Their
Potential
In
A
Criminal
Manner
Often
A
Progression
Of
Criminal
Activity
Occurs
Which
Involves
Telecommunications
Fraud
That
Is
Free
Long
Distance
Phone
Calls
Unauthorized
Access
To
Other
Computers
Whether
For
Profit
Fascination
Ego
Or
The
Intellectual
Challenge
Credit
Card
Fraud
Cash
Advances
And
Unauthorized
Purchases
Of
Goods
And
Then
These
People
Move
On
To
Other
Destructive
Activities
Like
Computer
Viruses
Some
Computer
Abusers
From
Close
Associations
Form
Close
Associations
With
Other
People
Having
Similar
Interests
Underground
Groups
Have
Been
Formed
For
The
Purpose
Of
Exchanging
Information
Relevant
To
Their
Criminal
Activities
These
Groups
Often
Communicate
With
Each
Other
Through
Message
Systems
Between
Computers
Called
Bulletin
Boards
Operation
Sun
Devil
Was
An
Investigation
Of
Potential
Computer
Fraud
Conducted
Over
A
Two
Year
Period
With
The
Use
Of
Sophisticated
Investigative
Techniques
This
Investigation
Exemplifies
The
Commitment
And
Extensive
Cooperation
Between
Federal
State
And
Local
Law
Enforcement
Agencies
And
Private
And
Governmental
Industries
Which
Have
Been
Targeted
By
Computer
Criminals
While
State
And
Local
Law
Enforcement
Agencies
Successfully
Investigate
And
Prosecute
Technological
Crimes
In
Specific
Geographical
Locations
Federal
Intervention
Is
Clearly
Called
For
When
The
Nature
I don't
Know
But
I mean
I'm
Sorry
That
I'm
Helping
Pay
For
It
We
We
All
Are
You
Know
Something
That
Struck
Me
There
They
Differentiated
Here
Between
Two
Kinds
Of
People
They
Say
Computer
Hacker
Suspects
Are
No
Longer
Misguided
Teenagers
Mischiefously
Playing
Games
With
Their
Computers
In
Their
Bedrooms
Some
Some
Some
Some
Are
High
Tech
Computer
Operators
Using
Computers
To
Engage
In
Unlawful
Conduct
Are
They
Saying
Then
That
If
They're
Not
High
Tech
Computer
Operators
Using
Computers
To
Engage
In
Unlawful
Conduct
If
They're
Not
Up to
Something
Really
Nefarious
Then
They're
Harmless
Harmless
People
Playing
In
Their
Bedrooms
Because
That's
The
Point
We've
Been
Trying
To
Make
All
This
Time
It
Sounds
Almost
Like
They've
Made
That
Point
For
Us
Of
Course
People
That
Commit
Crimes
That
Steal
Things
They're
Criminals
And
There's
No
Computer
Hacker
Around
That
I
Know
Of
That
That
Argues
That
Point
But
Somebody
That
Is
Simply
Exploring
And
Looking
Into
Other
Systems
As
Far
As
I'm
Concerned
The
Semantics
Of
That
Statement
Somehow
It's
More
Unlawful
To
Be
A
Mature
Sophisticated
Technically
Expert
Adult
Than
It
Is
To
Be
A
Playful
Teenager
The
Point
Of
The
Statement
Has
Nothing
To
Do
With
The
Actual
Thrust
Of
The
Activities
It
Has
To
Do
With
The
Style
Of
The
Person
That's
Conducting
Them
In
Other
Words
It's
Okay
Sophisticated
Users
Of
Computers
It's
Not
Okay
To
Bust
Playful
Kids
In
Bedrooms
So
In
Other
Words
Mr.
And
Mrs.
America
You
Don't
Need
To
Worry
About
Your
Son
Or
Daughter
Unless
He's
Out
Of
The
House
And
Technically
Sophisticated
So
In
Other
Words
The
Secret
Service
Doesn't
Go
Around
Raiding
The
Homes
Of
Kids
Who
Are
In
Sleep
Playing
Games
On
Their
Computers
They
Raid
The
Homes
Of
Kids
That
Are
Master
Criminals
Apparently
Though
In
My
Experience
With
This
Sweep
They've
Been
Raiding
The
Homes
Of
Kids
That
Are
Playing
With
Their
Computers
In
Their
Bedrooms
Most
Of
The
Folks
That
I've
Talked
To
In
The
Legion
Of
Doom
Are
Young
Exploratory
Basically
Harmless
Folks
There
Doesn't
Seem
To
Be
Much
Crime
In
Them
Well
If
They're
To
Me
At
This
Point
The
Principle
Irony
Of
All
This
Is
That
These
People
Are
Being
Accused
Of
Stealing
And
Disrupting
Information
When
In
Fact
The
Only
Information
That's
Been
Stolen
Is
The
Information
That's
Been
Unlawfully
Confiscated
From
The
Members
Of
The
Legion
Of
Doom
By
The
Secret
Service
Without
Due
Process
Without
Formal
Charges
Megabytes
And
Megabytes
Of
Data
Were
Stolen
By
The
Secret
Service
As
Far
Back
As
The
First
Of
March
And
Not
Return
And
There's
Been
No
Opportunity
For
These
People
To
Retrieve
Their
Property
Now
We've
Also
Seen
A
Computer
Newsletter
Get
Taken
Out
Of
Existence
By
These
Raids
We've
Seen
The
Complete
Distortion
Of
The
Whole
911
Case
It
Is
By
The
Most
Boring
Document
I've
Ever
Read
And
I've
Spent
Time
Dealing
With
The
United
States
Forest
Service
Which
Is
Pretty
Good
At
It
So
You
Wouldn't
Pay
$80,000
For
That
Six
Page
Document
Would
You
No
Well
I
Might
Pay
$79,448
Or
Whatever
It
Is
It's
Not
Quite
Worth
$80,000
But
That's
I
Wouldn't
But
See
That's
Another
Thing
That's
Kind
Of
At
The
Heart
Of
The
Matter
How
Do
You
Put
A
Value
On
On
A
Six-Page
Text
File
That
Can
Be
What
Is
The
Actual
Value
Of
This
And
To
Put
A
Value
Down
To
The
Penny
On
It
Really
Underscores
The
Confusion
Of
Authority
In
The
Face
Of
An
Entirely
New
Ballgame
You
Know
This
Isn't
A
Car
Or
A
Stereo
Or
A
Horse
But
They're
Trying
To
Put
Some
Kind
Of
Monetary
Value
On
It
As
It
Were
And
It's
Also
If
You
Obtain
A
Copy
Of
It
You're
Obtaining
Just
That
You're
Not
Obtaining
An
Actual
You're
Not
Stealing
It
From
Somebody
You're
Simply
Looking
At
I've
Got
A
Copy
In
My
Hands
Right
Now
Well
I
Don't
Know
If
You
Should
Say
That
On
In
Front
Of
Millions
Of
People
Here
Because
They
Come
And
Get
It
From
Me
If
They
Want
But
I've
Got
A
Copy
Of
It
Well
It's
I'm
Sure
The
Phone
Company
Would
Be
Very
Upset
I'm
Limiting
The
Ability
Of
Southern
Bell
To
Use
Kids
Were
Interfering
With
The
911
System
They
Had
The
Software
And
They
Were
Able
To
Manipulate
It
When
In
Actuality
All
They
Had
Was
A
Six
Page
Text
File
Explaining
Some
Of
The
More
Mundane
Processes
At
Work
I
Don't
Think
That
Was
A
Coincidence
I
Think
That
Was
A
Pretty
Well
Designed
Way
To
Make
It
Seem
As
If
They
Were
Up
To
Something
A
Worse
Than
What
Actually
Was
And
They
Are
In
A
Good
Position
To
Do
That
I
Mean
Control
Freaks
Always
Like
To
Use
Scare
Tactics
In
Order
To
Increase
Their
Control
And
If
You
Don't
Know
Anything
About
Computers
And
You
Do
Know
That
You
Want
The
911
System
To
Work
I
Can't
Think
Of
Anything
Better
Than
Than
To
Be
Telling
People
Through
The
Media
That
There
Are
These
These
Completely
Nihilistic
Lawless
People
Who
Have
Stolen
The
Software
That
Controls
Your
Lifeline
Under
Certain
Emergency
Circumstances
Now
What
This
Document
Actually
Talks
About
Is
Billing
Accountability
Marketing
You
Know
What
The
Phone
Company
Is
Supposed
To
Provide
The
Customer
In
Terms
Of
Services
I
Mean
This
Is
Dense
Bureaucracy
Which
Provides
Absolutely
No
Information
That
Anybody
Could
Use
To
Do
Anything
To
The
911
System
I
Mean
What
This
Is
Is
A
Trophy
Somebody
In
The
Course
Of
Getting
This
And
Disseminating
It
Was
Basically
Bragging
About
His
Ability
To
Get
Into
A
Certain
Computer
And
That's
All
It
Is
I
Like
To
It's
The
Coons
Skin
On
The
Wall
That's
Exactly
It
I'd
Like
To
Read
Something
From
We
Did
Kind
Of
A
Review
Of
The
911
Document
And
It's
Documentation
On
The
Emergency
911
System
Published
In
March
Of
1988
It
Retails
For
$79,449
And
It's
Six
Pages
Long
And
This
Is
Basically
What
Was
Found
On
That
Document
Because
It
Is
Widely
Disseminated
It
Otherwise
Would
Have
Been
A
Quickly
Forgotten
Text
Published
In
A
Hacker
Newsletter
But
Due
To
All
Of
The
Commotion
The
Bell
South
E
911
Document
Is
Now
Very
Much
In
The
Public
Eye
Copies
Are
Extremely
Easy
To
Come
By
Despite
Bell
South
Assertion
That
The
Whole
Thing
Is
Worth
$79,449
All right
We're
Going to
Report
On
Its
Contents
But
Don't
Get
Excited
There
Really
Isn't
All
That
Much
Here
Certain
Acronyms
Are
Introduced
Among
Them
Public
Safety
Answering
Point
PSAP
Also
Known
As
Emergency
Service
Bureau
ESB
This
Is
What
You
Get
In
Telco
Lingo
When
You
Dial
911
The
Importance
Of
Close
Coordination
Between
These
Agencies
Is
Stressed
Selective
Routing
Allows
The
911
Call
To
Be
Routed
To
The
Proper
PSAP
The
1A
ESS
Is
Used
As
The
Tandem
Office
For
This
Routing
Certain
Services
Made
Available
With
E
911
Include
Forced
Disconnect
Alternative
Routing
Selective
Routing
Selective
Transfer
Default
Routing
Night
Service
Automatic
Number
Identification
And
Automatic
Location
Identification
We
Learn
Of
The
Existence
Of
The
E
911
Implementation
Team
The
Brave
Men
And
Women
From
Network
Marketing
Who
Help
With
Configuration
In
The
Difficult
Cutover
Period
This
Team
Is
In
Charge
Of
Forming
An
Ongoing
Maintenance
Subcommittee
We
Wouldn't
Want
That
To
Get
Out
Now
Would
We
We
Learn
That
The
Switching
Control
Center
Known
As
The
SCC
Quote
Is
Responsible
For
E
911
Slash
Offices
Unquote
And
I
Don't
Know
About
You
But
I
Am
Not
Exactly
Shocked
By
That
Revelation
We
Also
Find
Out
What
Is
Considered
A
Priority
One
Trouble
Report
Any
Link
Down
To
The
PSAP
Fits
This
Definition
We
Also
Learn
That
When
ANI
Fails
The
Screens
Will
Display
All
Zeros
Okay
We
Could
Go
On
But
We
Really
Don't
Want
To
Bore
You
None
Of
This
Information
Would
Allow
A
Hacker
To
Gain
Access
To
Such
A
System
All
It
Affords
Is
A
Chance
To
Understand
The
Administrative
Functions
A
Little
Better
We
Like
To
Assume
That
Any
Outside
Interference
To
A
911
System
Is
Impossible
Does
Bell
South
Know
Otherwise
In
Light
Of
Their
Touchiness
On
The
Matter
We
Have
To
Wonder
And
I
Hear
A
Clock
Going
Off
Somewhere
I
Guess
It's
Striking
12
O'clock
Well
That's
That's
The
Scoop
On
The
911
Documentation
Review
You know
I
Think
That
About
Thumbs
It
Up
For
That
For
That
Particular
Document
We
Have
Several
People
Facing
Over
30
Years
In
Jail
For
Possessing
It
I
Think
That's
Sick
In
This
Day
And
Age
To
Frighten
Kids
Like
That
You
Know
Well
But
You
Got
A
Situation
Where
The
Enforcers
Don't
Begin
To
Understand
The
Threats
That
They're
Trying
To
Guard
Society
Against
The
FBI
Agency
Came
To
Visit
Me
Had
Only
The
Dimmest
Understanding
Of
How
A
Computer
Worked
What
A
Computer
Could
Do
I
Showed
Him
How
To
Download
A
File
And
He
He
Was
He
Was
Completely
Blown
Away
So
Naturally
There's
Going
To
Be
A
High
Level
Of
Superstition
And
Misunderstanding
On
The
Part
Of
These
People
I
Mean
If
Somebody
Higher
Up
Says
Go
Get
Them
They're
Doing
Something
Wrong
And
The
People
That
Are
Actually
Supposed
To
Enforce
The
Laws
Are
As
Technically
Unsophisticated
As
They
Are
You're
You're
Bound
To
Get
All
Kinds
Of
It's
Kind
Of
Kind
Of
Like
Government
Regulating
Art
Because
I
Would
Say
Art
And
Computers
Are
Two
Things
The
Government
Knows
Nothing
About
And
Two
Things
That
I
Feel
Very
Scared
Seeing
Them
In
Control
Of
Well
You know
Except
For
The
Fact
That
I
Think
That
They're
So
Technically
Incompetent
That
We're
Going
To
Be
Able
To
Run
Circles
Around
Them
Indefinitely
In
The
Future
Swiftness
And
Maneuverability
Is
Going
To
Be
Everything
And
Any
Agency
That
Requires
150
Agents
For
Two
Years
In
Order
To
Confiscate
Some
Teenagers
Equipment
Is
Not
A
Very
Swift
Moving
Or
Even
A
Very
Dangerous
Outfit
And
I
Keep
Thinking
Of
A
Line
That
Somebody
Once
Used
In
Reference
To
The
Administration
Of
Frederick
Of
The
Great
Which
Was
That
It
Was
Despotism
Tempered
By
Incompetence
And
I
Think
We
Have
Some
Of
The
Same
Protections
But
Unfortunately
That
Incompetence
Can
Work
Both
Ways
And
You
Know
Even
Even
As
It
Is
Unable
To
Find
Out
Who
The
Real
Criminals
Are
It
So
Incompetent
That
It
Identifies
All
Kinds
Of
False
Criminals
Let's
Let's
Talk
About
The
Frack
Newsletter
Being
Shut
Down
What
Are
Your
Perceptions
On
That
Well
It
Seems
As
Clear
A
Violation
Of
The
First
Amendment
As
Practically
Anything
I've
Ever
Run
Across
I
Mean
The
Only
Difference
Between
Frack
And
2600
Is
That
They
Use
Electronic
Media
And
They
Don't
Use
Print
But
You
Know
There
Is
A
Precedent
For
This
Kind
Of
Institutionalized
Control
Over
A
Medium
In
Violation
Of
The
First
Amendment
That
Has
Stuck
And
I
Give
You
The
Example
Of
Radio
And
Broadcasting
In
General
There
Is
Government
Censorship
And
Control
Over
Broadcasting
Which
Which
Isn't
Applied
To
Print
And
Has
At
This
Stage
Been
More
Or
Less
Institutionalized
By
Precedent
And
And
Really
What
Happened
Was
At
The
Very
Beginning
The
Government
Decided
That
They
Were
Going
To
Maintain
Control
Over
This
New
Medium
And
They
Managed
To
Keep
It
Now
We're
Right
At
The
Same
Pivotal
Point
With
The
Dissemination
Of
Electronic
Information
Which
Is
How
Obviously
Most
Information
Is
Now
Going
To
Be
Disseminated
The
Government
Is
Trying
To
Establish
The
Same
Kind
Of
Early
On
Control
Over
The
Medium
But
I
Think
The
Difference
Here
Is
That
This
Kind
Of
Control
Over
The
Medium
Could
Very
Easily
Grow
To
Encompass
The
Printed
Media
As
Well
Even
If
It
Doesn't
It
It's
Kind
Of
Irrelevant
Because
Print
Hard
Copy
Is
Increasingly
Just
The
End
Product
Of
Electronic
Transmission
I
Mean
It's
You
Know
You
Don't
Have
People
Out
There
Sitting
In
Front
Of
Linotypes
Or
Underwood
Typewriters
I
Mean
Information
Is
Taking
The
Form
Of
Ones
And
Zeros
And
Wires
Before
It
Ever
Reaches
Paper
And
You
Can
You
Can
Decide
That
You're
Going
To
Establish
Control
At
Any
Point
And
And
Have
A
Devastating
Effect
On
Printed
Matter
In
The
Long
Run
I
Mean
This
9-1-1
Document
Is
A
Case
In
Point
I
Suppose
That
You
Would
Have
Some
Constitutional
Protections
For
And
They
Would
Be
Exercised
For
Printing
This
Document
In
2600
There's
No
Difference
Between
This
Document
In
2600
And
This
Document
In
Electronic
Form
Except
For
Execution
I
Can
Tell
You
Though
That
I
Would
Never
Print
I
Would
Never
Allow
This
To
Be
Printed
In
Anything
I
Was
Working
For
Because
It's
So
Boring
So
It's
Horrible
It
Really
Is
I
Mean
This
Really
Is
One
Of
The
Least
Dangerous
The
Only
Dangerous
Thing
About
This
Is
That
It
Might
Put
You
To
Sleep
That
That's
True
If
You
If
You're
Driving
It
Don't
Read
This
While
You're
Driving
It
Don't
Read
Anything
While
You're
Driving
For
That
Matter
But
In
Fact
I
Might
Have
Put
Some
People
To
Sleep
When
I
Was
Reading
Parts
Of
It
Before
Because
It's
You
You
Could
Go
Into
A
Deep
Coma
Reading
This
Thing
Aloud
You
Sure
Could
One
Wonders
What
Happened
To
The
Person
That
Wrote
It
But
Enough
Of
That
What's
Going
To
Happen
What
Are
The
Next
Steps
What
Should
People
Be
Doing
Well
I
Figure
That
Whenever
You've
Got
An
Agency
Of
The
Government
That's
Out
Of
Control
The
Best
Thing
You
Can
Do
Is
Invoke
Another
Part
Of
The
Government
Against
It
And
In
This
Case
Fortunately
You've
Got
The
Judiciary
The
Executive
Branch
Is
Running
Amok
As
Usual
And
I
Still
Have
Some
Limited
Faith
In
The
Ability
Of
The
Courts
Especially
On
The
Higher
End
To
Enforce
The
Constitution
So
What
I've
Been
Spending
My
Time
Doing
For
The
Last
Couple
Of
Days
Is
Lining
Up
Some
Serious
Major
Nasty
Lawyers
To
Get
Involved
On
Behalf
Of
Some
Of
These
Kids
What's
Been
The
Response
From
The
Lawyers
That
You've
Talk
To
When
I
Finally
Got
To
The
Right
Lawyers
It
Was
Very
Positive
And
One
Of
The
I
Can't
Name
These
Folks
Now
But
One
Of
The
Most
Prestigious
Litigating
Law
Firms
In
New
York
Just
Agreed
To
Help
Out
The
Three
Defendants
That
Are
In
The
New
York
I
Mean
I
Guess
You
Can't
Call
Them
Defendants
Since
They
Haven't
Been
Charged
With
Anything
But
These
Kids
Had
Their
Equipment
Taken
From
Them
Almost
Two
Months
Ago
And
Have
Been
Under
A
Constant
Reign
Of
Threats
And
Veiled
Offers
To
Mitigate
Charges
If
They
Would
Cooperate
And
I
Don't
Think
They
Should
Cooperate
At
All
I
Think
If
Anything
They
Should
Come
Back
Fighting
Hard
And
Fortunately
I
Think
They're
About
To
Have
The
Means
At
It
It's
It's
Good
To
Hear
That
Somebody
Cares
Enough
To
Do
That
It
Also
Must
Be
So
Frightening
To
Not
Know
What's
Going
To
Happen
Next
You're
Not
Charged
With
Anything
You
Play
With
Something
On
Your
Computer
You
Don't
Know
What
Kind
Of
Crazy
Laws
They're
Going
To
Make
Up
And
Misinterpret
To
Send
You
Away
For
God
Knows
How
Long
It
Must
Be
A
Really
Frightening
Experience
To
Go
Through
In
One
Of
These
Cases
The
Secret
Service
Came
In
With
Eight
Or
Ten
Agents
With
Guns
Drawn
And
The
Only
Person
Home
Was
The
Twelve
Year
Old
Sister
One
Of
Of
These
Kids
I
Hope
They
Were
Able
To
Subdue
Her
Before
She
Did
Any
I
Guess
They
Had
Her
Good
And
Subdued
By
The
Time
He
Got
Home
Half
An
Hour
Later
They
Told
This
Kid's
Mother
That
As
Far
As
They
Were
Concerned
He
Was
Responsible
For
The
AT&T
Systems
Crash
In
February
And
Probably
Cost
The
Nation
A
Billion
Dollars
That's
How
They
Put
It
To
Her
You
Can
Imagine
What
She
Thought
It's
Incredible
Because
First
Of
AT&T
Has
Admitted
That
It
Was
Their
Fault
That
That
Happened
Do
You
Have
Any
Sense
That
Perhaps
These
People
Really
Don't
Understand
The
First
Thing
About
Any
Of
This
They
Don't
Know
What
These
Kids
Are
Being
Charged
With
Themselves
I'm
Completely
Certain
Of
It
One
Great
Story
One
Of
These
Kids
Was
Telling
Me
That
He
Was
Riding
Up
In
The
Elevator
And
They
Take
In
All
Manner
Of
Stuff
Like
His
Music
Tapes
And
His
Tape
Player
And
His
Telephone
Answering
Machine
And
One
Of
These
Agents
Is
Riding
Up
In
The
Elevator
Next
To
Him
With
The
Answering
Machine
In
His
Hand
And
He
Looks
At
The
Answering
Machine
He
Says
Alright
What
Is
This
And
The
Kids
Well
It
An
Answering
Machine
And
The
Agent
Next
To
The
Guy
That
These
People
Don't
Even
Know
What
An
Answering
Machine
Is
We're
Not
Talking
About
Any
Kind
Of
Technical
Sophistication
Here
And
These
Are
Matters
Where
In
Order
To
Understand
What's
Going
On
A
Certain
Level
Of
Technical
Sophistication
Is
Absolutely
Mandatory
And
I
Think
If
That
Level
Of
Technical
Sophistication
Were
Achieved
By
The
People
That
Sign
The
Warrants
And
The
People
That
Execute
The
Warrants
Maybe
They
They
Are
Not
Accomplishing
Anything
And
I
Think
That's
A
Very
Important
Step
That
We've
Got
To
Reach
Pretty
Quickly
Because
A lot
Of
Innocent
Kids
Are
Being
Victimized
Here
People
Who
Really
Should
Be
The
Leaders
Of
The
Next
Generation
I
Suppose
The
People
That
Are
Curious
Intelligent
And
The
People
Who
Ask
A
Lot
Of
Questions
Right
Now
That's
Something
That
Can
Get
You
In
Jail
Well
You
Asking
Questions
Could
Always
Get
You
In
Jail
I
Guess
For
A
Significant
Portion
Of
Human
History
Asking
Questions
Could
Get
You
Burned
At
The
Stake
Hung
Drawn
And
Quartered
Tortured
To
Death
You
Name
It
Asking
Questions
Has
Never
Been
Popular
With
Control
Freaks
Now
Who
Do
You
Define
As
Control
Freaks
Anybody
In
Charge
Oh
No
I
Have
Enough
Faith
In
Some
Forms
Of
Government
To
Assume
That
There
Are
Plenty
Of
People
That
Have
The
Same
Attitude
Towards
The
Controllability
Of
Life
That
I
Do
But
I
Guess
The
Way
I
Would
A
Control
Freak
Is
Somebody
Who
Is
Terrified
By
Uncertainty
Somebody
Who
Believes
That
That
Ambiguity
Is
Something
That
Can
Be
Defined
Out
Of
Any
Situation
And
That
The
Only
Way
To
Do
That
Is
By
Establishing
Legal
Or
Other
Forms
Of
Control
Over
Human
Behavior
And
That
Is
A
Control
Freak
And
There
Are
Lots
Of
Them
They
Take
Many
Different
Forms
Well
I
Like
To
Get
Into
This
A
Little
Further
Talk
About
The
Robert
Morris
Sentencing
Perhaps
As
Well
But
Mostly
Talk
About
What
What
Lies
Ahead
For
These
People
That
Have
Been
Charged
We
Were
Talking
To
Steve
Jackson
A
Little
Bit
Earlier
His
Publishing
Company
In
Austin
Texas
Was
Raided
By
The
Secret
Service
Because
They
Did
Not
Like
A
Particular
Game
That
He
Was
Producing
That
Had
To
Do
With
Science
Fiction
Cyber
Punks
And
That
Kind
Of
Thing
They
Thought
It
Was
A
Handbook
On
How
To
Commit
Computer
Crime
And
We
Were
Talking
To
Him
Earlier
He
Said
He
Estimated
That
He
Lost
About
$125,000
As
A
Result
And
He's
Almost
Been
Driven
Out
Of
Business
One
Thing
That
I
Can't
Figure
Out
And
Maybe
John
Barlow
You
Can
Help
Us
Here
He
Said
The
American
Civil
Liberties
Union
Did
Not
Take
An
Interest
In
This
Why
Do
You
Suppose
That
Was
I
Wish
I
Could
Figure
That
Out
I
Finally
Got
On
The
Phone
Yesterday
With
Somebody
From
The
ACLU
Who
Is
The
Only
Person
There
That
I
Know
Of
That
Is
Knowledgeable
About
These
Matters
And
He
Said
That
He
Hadn't
Even
Heard
Of
It
And
Asked
Me
To
Tell
Steve
Jackson
And
Whoever
Else
Had
Tried
To
Contact
The
ACLU
Without
Success
To
Get
Ahold
Of
Him
So
I
Think
Maybe
Things
Are
Turning
Around
There
My
Guess
Is
That
When
The
Initial
Contacts
Were
Made
Either
By
Jackson
Or
Some
Of
The
Other
Folks
That
Made
An
Effort
To
Get
Help
From
The
ACLU
They
Just
Talked
To
People
Who
Were
Not
Knowledgeable
About
These
Matters
And
Had
The
Same
Kind
Social
Dread
Of
Computer
Crackers
That
Most
People
Who
Read
The
Newspapers
Have
Come
To
Acquire
I
Think
With
The
Case
Of
The
ACLU
There
Is
A
Degree
Of
Ignorance
There
Too
They
Don't
Understand
The
Technology
They
Don't
See
The
Implications
An
Electronic
Newsletter
In
St.
Louis
Gets
Shut
Down
Is
That
Not
The
Same
Thing
As
A
New
York
City
Getting
Shut
Down
You
You
Have
To
Understand
What
Is
Really
Happening
I
Think
It
Up
To
People
Like
You
And
Me
And
Our
Listeners
To
Educate
Those
That
Can
Certainly
Help
Out
In
A
Situation
Like
This
To
Educate
The
ACLU
To
Educate
The
Elected
Officials
And
The
Media
And
Our
Friends
And
Relatives
And
Everybody
Else
Because
When
People
Come
Up
To
You
And
Say
They
Think
Robert
Morris
Should
Have
Been
Put
Away
For
He
Was
Playing
With
With
With
A
Computer
Program
And
It
Got
Out
Of
Hand
And
For
That
You
Are
Supposed
To
Go
To
Jail
It
So
What
He
Did
Was
A
Religious
Crime
Really
How
So
Well
In
The
Sense
That
In
This
The
Religion
Of
This
Culture
Is
Rationality
And
Science
A
Lot
Of
People
Don't
Understand
Science
In
Fact
Most
Of
The
People
Who
Have
The
Most
Devout
Form
Of
Scientific
Religion
Don't
Understand
The
Most
Basic
Tenent
Of
Science
Which
Is
That
Everything
Is
Up
For
Grabs
And
That
We
Don't
Really
Know
Anything
We
Just
Have
A
Vast
Stack
Of
Theories
But
These
People
Imbue
Computers
With
A
Kind
Of
Holy
Mystic
Quality
And
What
Robert
Morris
Was
Doing
Was
Messing
Around
In
The
Temple
He
Was
Defiling
The
Sacred
By
Some
Mysterious
Means
That
Most
Of
The
Folks
That
Are
Incensed
About
This
Couldn't
Begin
To
Imagine
It's
Interesting
The
Judge
After
Sentencing
Him
I'm
Told
Said
I
Still
Want
To
Find
Out
More
About
How
This
Works
Really
He
Never
Really
Quite
Understood
It
But
Thankfully
The
Judge
Was
Intelligent
Enough
To
Realize
That
There
Was
No
Malice
Here
There
Was
No
Bad
Intent
On
Robert
Morris
Part
And
He
Went
Against
The
Guidelines
For
Conviction
In
A
Particular
Crime
Like
That
Which
Pretty
Much
Say
That
You
Have
To
Send
Somebody
To
Jail
Who
Is
Convicted
Of
This
He
Said
Obviously
This
Person
Was
Doing
Something
Out
Of
Curiosity
Not
Out
Out
Of
Out
Of
Maliciousness
And
He
Sentenced
Him
To
A
Fine
Probation
That
Kind
Of
Thing
Which
Is
Probably
Appropriate
Prison
What
Do
You
Get
Out
Of
Prison
You
Know
What
Is
The
Point
And
Fortunately
He
Was
Able
To
See
That
I
I'm
Just
Afraid
For
All
These
Other
People
That
Are
Now
Undergoing
This
Will
They
Get
Someone
As
Intelligent
When
Their
Judgment
Day
Comes
Well
You
Know
That
This
Is
The
Kind
Of
Thing
That
Gives
Me
A
Little
Faith
In
The
Judiciary
As
A
Balance
Against
The
Executive
Branch
I
For
One
Thing
If
You
Sit
Long
Enough
In
A
Court
Room
And
Listen
To
Enough
Evidence
No
Matter
How
Ignorant
You
Are
When
You
Start
Out
You'll
Know
Something
About
It
When
You're
Done
And
I
I'm
Fairly
Well
Persuaded
That
The
Judges
Of
This
Country
Are
Going
To
Know
More
About
Computer
Crime
Than
Anybody
Who's
In
Enforcement
In
Fairly
Short
Order
Well
That's
True
But
If
They
Only
Hear
It
From
The
Prosecution
And
They
Don't
Hear
It
From
The
Defendants
Themselves
Because
They're
Really
The
Only
People
That
Understand
What
It
Was
That
They
Did
And
What
It
Is
That's
Going
On
If
They
Don't
Hear
That
Then
What
They
Come
Up
With
Is
Going
To
Be
Very
I
Hate
To
Admit
My
Ignorance
But
I
Wasn't
Aware
That
There
Been
A
Sent
Handed
Down
In
The
Morris
Case
When
Did
That
Happen
That
Happened
About
Two
Weeks
Ago
Really
Yeah
The
Beginning
Of
May
I
I've
Been
Traveling
Around
Too
Fast
I
Guess
What
Do
You
Know
What
The
Sentence
Was
Yes
In
Fact
Fortunately
And
This
Will
Serves
A
Terrific
Lead
In
For
The
Pitch
I'm
Going
To
Do
In
A
Second
There's
An
Update
On
That
In
The
Current
Edition
Of
Havoc
On
The
Internet
Over
The
Fall
Of
1988
And
He
Was
Sentenced
To
Three
Years
Probation
A
$10,000
Fine
And
400
Hours
Of
Community
Service
Now
He
Could
Have
Received
Up
To
Five
Years
In
Prison
Along
With
The
$250,000
Fine
So
That's
The
Update
From
Robert
Morris
And
Considering
What
That
Sentence
Could
Have
Been
I
Think
It
Was
Fair
If
You're
Going
To
Say
That
He
Now
We
Are
In
The
Middle
Of
Our
Fundraising
Drive
Here
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And
I
Challenge
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Find
A
Program
A
Newspaper
A
Magazine
That
Approaches
Computer
Hacking
From
The
Hackers
Point
Of
View
You
Won't
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Unless
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Probably
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Why
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There's
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The
Average
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Eric
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I
Haven't
Already
Hit
Upon
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After
You
After
You're
On
For
A
Long
Time
And
You
Keep
Saying
The
Same
Thing
I
Don't
Know
Maybe
You
Lose
The
Conviction
In
Your
Voice
Or
Something
But
Does
It
Make
Sense
To
You
Should
People
Reach
Out
And
Support
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Station
Like
This
Sure
I
That
That
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Kind
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You
Don't
Have
Truly
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Organs
Of
Information
That
Don't
Owe
Anything
To
Advertisers
And
Don't
Owe
Anything
To
The
Government
And
Don't
Care
Who
They
Irritate
You
Know
You're
Not
Free
Anymore
It's
As
Simple
As
That
I
Mean
Obviously
I've
Listened
To
Some
Amazing
Stuff
On
Pacifica
Stations
I
Mean
Talk
About
Running
Screaming
From
The
Room
I
I
Outlet
In
Berkeley
Not
Too
Long
Ago
And
And
They
Had
The
They
Had
An
Interview
With
Not
One
But
Two
Or
Three
Gay
Ethiopian
Female
Poets
And
It
Was
Just
You
Know
It
Was
The
Kind
Of
Thing
That
Only
A
Pacifica
Station
Would
Do
And
It
Was
It
Was
Absurd
But
You
Know
On
The
Other
Hand
I
Can't
Imagine
Any
Other
Station
That
Would
Give
Any
Kind
Of
In-Depth
Reporting
Of
Computer
Hacking
As
You
Say
From
The
Computer
Hacker's
Point
Of
View
And
That
Is
Right
Now
That
Is
A
Critical
Piece
Of
Information
It
Sure
Is
First
Of
There's
A
Reason
Why
Other
Media
Outlets
Won't
Do
That
It's
Because
Sponsors
Would
See
It
As
Too
Controversial
As
Too
Threatening
To
The
Products
That
They
Sell
You
Know
Hearing
What
Computer
Hackers
Have
To
Say
That's
That's
Kind
Of
Risky
There
Absolutely
But
It's
It's
Necessary
In
This
Day
And
Age
What
Computer
Hackers
Are
Learning
And
Figuring
Out
And
Revealing
Is
Something
That's
Going
To
Be
Affecting
Us
For
For
Decades
Centuries
To
Come
We
We
Could
Be
Seeing
Things
That
If
Left
Unchecked
Could
Result
In
A
Lot
Of
Our
Civil
Rights
Being
Violated
Flagrantly
In
The
Decades
To
Come
We
Have
To
Look
Upon
This
Now
Because
The
World
Is
Moving
Into
The
Electronic
Age
With
Breathtaking
Speed
And
We've
Got
To
Know
What
Is
Right
And
What
Is
Wrong
If
You
Just
Leave
It
Up
To
Somebody
Else
And
Say
Oh
We
Many
Times
Before
In
The
Past
But
A
Mistake
That
We
Can
Do
Something
About
Now
I'm
Not
Saying
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By
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279-3400
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It's
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It's
Something
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It's
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Know
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279
3400
Let's
Get
Two
Phone
Calls
And
We
Can
Go
Back
To
Our
Discussion
And
Take
Some
Phone
Calls
Because
I'd
Really
Like
To
Cover
The
Rest
Of
This
Story
There's
Still
More
To
Go
On
The
Story
And
We've
Been
Talking
About
This
Since
1145
This
Evening
Yesterday
Evening
Actually
There's
So
Much
Going
On
There's
So
Much
Going
On
It's
Just
One
Story
Imagine
All
The
Stories
That
We
Can
Cover
You
Know
Eric
One
Of
The
Things
That
I
Was
Thinking
About
While
I
Was
Listening
To
You
Talk
There
Is
That
One
Of
The
Problems
You've
Got
With
Market
Driven
Media
Is
That
There's
This
Sort
Of
Channel
Scan
Consciousness
That
Now
Applies
To
Radio
As
Well
As
Television
And
Information
Is
Now
Being
Presented
In
Smaller
And
Smaller
Bits
A
Good
Case
In
Point
Was
The
Interview
That
You
And
I
Did
For
CBS
A
Month
And
A
Half
Ago
Here
We
Were
Talking
About
The
Same
Kinds
Of
Issues
And
We
Had
Six
Minutes
To
Cover
This
Whole
Range
Of
Stuff
Well
That
Was
Absurd
You
Know
I
Mean
Especially
Starting
Out
With
A
Guy
Who
Was
Concerned
That
We
Might
Break
Into
His
Home
Computer
Even
Though
It
Wasn't
Connected
To
A
Telephone
Line
We
Were
Dealing
With
An
Interviewer
That
Had
That
Level
Of
Technical
Sophistication
I
Find
That
Whenever
I'm
Interviewed
By
Somebody
That
Talking
About
Computer
Hackers
They
Always
Start
Off
By
Saying
I
Don't
Know
Anything
About
Computers
And
I
Keep
As
Why
In
Hell
Are
You
Doing
This
Story
If
You
Don't
Know
Anything
About
The
Subject
Right
What
Qualifies
Them
To
Even
Discuss
It
In
A
Public
Setting
Yet
People
Look
To
Them
As
The
Providers
Of
The
Information
The
People
That
They
Trust
And
Believe
But
If
They
Don't
Know
What
They're
Talking
About
How
Can
You
Trust
And
Believe
Them
It's
So
Absurd
It's
Funny
But
It's
Not
Funny
Because
People
Are
Getting
Hurt
By
This
So
Let's
Give
Out
That
Phone
One
More
Time
I
Really
Want
To
See
Some
More
Lines
Light
Up
Because
We
Do
Need
Help
Here
Folks
We
Do
Need
Help
And
You're
The
People
That
Can
Help
Us
You're
The
Person
That
Can
Help
Us
You
Listening
Right
Now
I
See
All
The
Call
In
Lines
Are
Lit
Up
Great
You
Know
We
Want
To
Hear
What
You
Have
To
Say
But
We
Also
Need
That
Real
Financial
Support
We
Take
Visa
We
Take
Master
Card
Right
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We
Want
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212
279
3400
There's
A
Phone
Call
Great
Let's
Get
One
More
In
There
And
We
Can
Go
And
Take
Some
More
Phone
Calls
And
Talk
About
The
Other
Issues
That
Are
Affecting
Us
I
Can
Talk
About
This
Till
Six
In
The
Morning
I
Not
Going
To
We
Only
On
For
Another
Hour
But
It's
So
Incredible
The
Things
That Are
Happening
It
Could
Be
So
Wonderful
Marvelous
To
See
Technology
Developing
Blossoming
To
See
People
Getting
Control
Over
Technology
Being
Able
To
Produce
Their
Own
Music
Produce
Their
Own
Magazines
It
Can
Be
So
Incredible
So
Great
So
Inspiring
But
It
Can
Also
Be
Detrimental
If
We
Don't
Have
The
Control
That
We
Deserve
You
Know
It's
Technology
Is
It
Can
Be
Our
Salvation
It
Can
Be
Our
Damnation
Hey
That's
That's
A
Sound
Bite
Isn't
It
Yeah
That
That
That
That
Sure
Worked
For
The
CBS
Interview
Eric
I
Should
Have
Said
That
It
Doesn't
Say
Anything
No
It
Doesn't
Say
Much
But
I
Should
Have
Said
It
On
CBS
Now
They
They
Love
Sound
Bites
When
You
Say
One
Sentence
You
They'll
Use
One
Sentence
Somehow
You
Know
I
Don't
Want
To
Come
Down
Too
Hard
On
Media
People
Because
I
Do
Think
They
Mean
Well
But
They're
Not
Guided
Properly
They
Have
To
Understand
What
It
Is
They're
Talking
About
And
Whose
Responsibility
Is
That
If
Not
Ours
The
People
That
Understand
What's
Going
On
We've
Got
To
Take
That
Control
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You
Our
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That's
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In
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Age
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A
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Over
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Deffening
Roar
Of
Sensationalism
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Is
Ever
Present
Boy
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In
In
The
Computer
Hacker
World
And
With
The
Secret
Service
Raids
And
All
That
Kind
Of
Thing
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To
John
Perry
Barlow
Out
In
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What
City
In
Wyoming
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In
Pinedale
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Is
Out
In
Twin
Peaks
Country
Somewhere
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Emmanuel
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We're
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We'll
Be
Right
Back
Walking
Down
The
Road
With
The
Pistol
In
The
Waste
Journey
To
Bad
Walking
Down
The
Road
With
The
Ratchet
In
The
Waste
Journey
To
Bad
Oh
Boy
Just
Grabbing
And
Stabbing
And
Rooting
And
Shooting
Boy
You
Too
Bad
You
Just
Robbing
And
Stabbing
And
You
Shooting
Boy
You
Too
Bad
One
Of
These
Days
Spin
Your
Voice
Say
Come
We
Gonna
Run
One
Of
These
Days
Spin
Your
Voice
Say
Come
We
Gonna
Run
To
You
Gonna
Run
Run
Run
Run
Run
Run
Your
Hands
Is
Uh
Walking down the road, beat the pistol in your waist, journey to bed, oh boy, walking down the road, beat the ratchet in your waist, journey to bed, oh boy, he just
grabbing and stabbing and looting and shooting, oh boy, you're too bad, oh boy, he just grabbing and stabbing and looting and shooting, oh boy, you're too bad, oh boy, one of these days when you hear a voice



Now, you know, whether information is property, and whether the activities I engaged in was
protected by the First Amendment.
Okay, let's go back to the phones.
Good morning.
Hello, is anyone there?
Hello?
Yeah, go ahead.
Okay.
A few months ago, the computer show on BAI had an hour program on the other case that
you discussed.
Steve Jackson Games.
Right, right.
They had an hour show on that case, and they had a lawyer from one of the top constitutional
law firms in the country talking about the case, and discussing the question of the way
in which the First Amendment would apply to this type of case.
And I don't remember his name or the name of his firm, but you could probably find out
by asking any one of the computer people.
Yeah, I believe Craig was trying to answer that.
Well, the New York firm is Rabinowitz and Bowden, and Silverglate and Good is located
in Boston.
Right.
I mean, if you wanted another opinion on the case, I mean, you could probably get one from
them.
Okay.
Thanks for the suggestion.
Our phone number is 212-279-3407.
And Craig, I wanted to give out that address one more time for your legal defense fund,
because I think a lot of people are interested in helping out in whatever way they can.
Okay.
That address, once more, is for Kerov Sheldon Zener, Z-E-N-N-E-R, and the law firm is Katten,
K-A-T-T-E-N, Muchen, M-U-C-H-I-N, and Zavis, Z-A-V-I-S.
They're located at 525 West Monroe Street, Suite 1600, Chicago, Illinois, 60606.
And for anyone who's sending some sort of check or money order, they should be made
out to the law firm, Katten, Muchen, and Zavis, with some sort of notation on the check in
the memo section or with the letter as to the account of Craig Neidorf.
And I guess the whole thing on the envelope should be addressed to Neidorf Defense Fund?
That'd be good, but definitely say something like, Attention Sheldon Zener, or Kerov Sheldon
Zener.
Okay.
And our phone number here is 212-279-3407.
If you want to show some support for WBAI, please call our pledge line now, 212-279-3400.
We do have the special one-time offer for this marathon that will be ending tonight.
It's only going to be offered during this program.
Of all $55 pledges, 55 and more, we'll get a year of 2600 Magazine, which is your link
to the hacker world, to the news stories that are going on.
For instance, the Craig Neidorf story, the Steve Jackson story, all the other stories
about hackers or hacking-related material that you don't read about in the mainstream
media.
You'd read about it in a hacker publication, and in fact, you'd see it years in advance.
You would see what is coming, what is going to be happening.
We've been talking about this in 2600 for, it seems, forever.
It's something that has been going on for as long as people have been playing with other
computers and learning things that a lot of people think they're not supposed to be learning.
There have been terror tactics and all kinds of ways of persuasion, persuading people not
to ask those questions, not to find out those bits of knowledge.
It's an important topic that needs to be discussed more and more, and we need to reach answers
to this issue.
We need to ask ourselves, are computer hackers criminals?
And if not, then how should they be treated?
Should people be kicking in doors and pulling guns on teenagers that log into the wrong
computer once or twice in their lives, or make a free phone call now and then?
It's a very disturbing question when things like this happen right in front of us.
By receiving that magazine, you will be in tune with these events as they happen, before
they happen, and you can become educated in a way that perhaps you might not think you
can become educated in, but it is quite possible.
You don't need to know a lot about computers or anything like that.
And plus there's a lot of other information in the magazine too, information about how
various computer systems work, how various phone systems work.
For instance, in the latest issue, the summer issue which just came out, there is an extensive
article on customer-owned payphones and how they work, how they don't work, what you can
do to make sure that you get your money's worth, and a whole lot of other things.
The most extensive article I think ever to have appeared anywhere on these payphones,
these one-armed bandits, some people are calling them, that are popping up throughout
the city streets.
You can become the most educated person on your block by learning how these things work,
and it's written in English so that you can understand exactly what it is that's being
talked about.
It's not some kind of technical jargon that no one outside the industry will understand.
So by calling 212-279-3400 and pledging your support to WBAI, you will be pledging your
support for freedom of speech and also receiving a year's worth of 2600 Magazine and opening
yourself up to this fascinating world even more.
So that's all I'm going to say about that.
I would like to see a couple more calls come in before we leave tonight.
212-279-3400, if you're thinking about joining us and helping out the station and keeping
us going, please call.
Alright, 212-279-3407 is our on-air line, and let's see who's on that.
Good morning.
And that was...
I don't like that voice.
That sounded like the exact same voice before, and that's why I hung up so quickly.
212-279-3407, hurry up and call...
Oh, someone's already back?
That's incredible.
They must have called in the exact second that that line got released.
Good morning.
Yeah, is there any way that Craig could give that 1-800 number to get the Belcourt Catalog?
I don't know.
Do we have that number, Craig?
I don't have it with me right now.
Yeah, I've been trying to get that number myself, because I'd like to have it published
in 2600.
You might just try 800-DIRECTORY-INFORMATION.
Uh-huh.
Okay, thank you very much.
And add the address for Belcourt, B-L-L-C-O-R-E.
Okay, why don't you try that?
In fact, we're going to try that right now.
Let's see if we can actually get a response here.
And find out that number for our listeners as a public service here.
And we'll go back to the phones in just a second.
You know, we've got to fix these phones.
Every time it connects to something, it hangs up.
Let's try that one more time.
All right, now I misdialed.
This can take forever, folks.
Here we go.
You know, it might just...
I remember it might just be 1-800-BELCOURT.
That's a possibility.
Let's see if we can get an answer here.
Oh, come on.
Three rings is unacceptable.
Directory, Steve.
Ah, yes, hi.
I'm looking for the number for BELCOURT.
That's B-E-L-L-C-O-R-E.
What location?
I'm sorry?
What location do I...
How many are there?
Is that in New Jersey or Illinois?
I guess New Jersey.
One moment, please.
Thank you.
The toll-free number is 800-274-2400.
Repeat, 800-274-2400.
If you have further questions, a directory assistance operator will return.
We don't need the Illinois one, do we, Craig?
I don't think so.
Okay, so let's disengage that line.
But that's the number there, and that's how easy it is to get.
And if you didn't hear it call 800-INFORMATION, it's free.
And, in fact, so is that number.
212-279-3407, our RN Airline.
And, please, let's see some calls come into the pledge line
so we know that there's people out there that care enough to...
I hate to say it.
I hate to say it, but I've got to say it.
Care enough to put their money where their mouths are.
Yes, 212-279-3400 is our pledge line, or maybe we should call it our prayer line.
I don't know.
Give a call and talk to the friendly tally person.
Work something out, but show your support somehow.
Good morning.
Yes, I just wanted to say, I called before, and I just wanted to say one other thing.
With the federal police going around and arresting dozens and dozens of hackers and computer people,
I think that it is really necessary to counterattack against them.
Now, you have this organization up in Boston or Cambridge or something,
and I think that someone ought to mount a full-scale legal counterattack against them
because otherwise, if you just let them go on, they're going to keep on doing it.
Well, what would you have them do?
I would have them do what the other fellow suggested,
which is sue the federal government for phony prosecutions.
The problem with most of these cases is while there's been maybe 40 to 100 raids in the last few months,
there's actually been very few arrests made.
So while these people have had their equipment and things confiscated,
they haven't actually been arrested, and in the meantime,
the government can claim that they're still checking into things.
It's a cop-out, but unfortunately it's an accepted one.
Julian, are you about to say something, Julian?
Well, I just wanted to point out that, again, there is nonetheless,
whether they've been arrested or not, there is the damage of confiscation.
And this is fairly unique, too, and technology-specific.
A lot of these attorneys, you talk to them and say,
well, why in the world do you, you know, you're looking for specific pieces of information.
You know what the information might look like if you saw it printed out.
Why do you have to take the whole computer?
Why do you have to, you know, it's like throwing the baby out with the bathwater.
That's not all they take.
They take the printer, they take the telephone, they take anything they can get their hands on.
As I said, you know, they took somebody's Pac-Man game,
they've heard stories of people's stereos being lifted.
But their point is that, well, you know, we can't just get it off the computer.
This is very sensitive technology, and, you know, if we just sat there trying to get it out of there,
you know, we'd be there for days.
In other words, we don't know what the hell we're doing, so we're just taking the whole thing with us.
Exactly.
That's frightening.
One thing else that's becoming kind of, I guess, a precedent here is that equipment is being seized and not returned.
It's being forfeited.
That's the penalty now.
They don't charge anybody with anything, but they say to them,
we'll drop the whole thing if you just agree to forfeit all of your equipment.
Emmanuel, I mean, don't you see those ads all the time for those big government auctions?
That's how they're paying back the deficit.
It's the same thing that's going on with the war on drugs.
Basically, if you're on a yacht and you smoke a joint or something,
technically the yacht can be seized and sold off at auction, which is kind of a crazy thing.
I think it's happened to a couple of rock bands, actually.
But they're trying to apply the same kind of logic to computer hackers now.
If a computer hacker does something, allegedly does something, he can either face what you face, Craig,
a long trial and legal expenses through the roof, or he can just say,
okay, take all my equipment and leave me alone.
Given the choice, I probably would have opted for that.
Yeah, and most people would because most people don't want to hassle in their lives.
But think of the effect that's going to have on the future, a very bad effect.
It's kind of like blackmail, I guess.
Yeah, and as the caller pointed out, it's important to start really going on the offensive and saying,
people, this isn't acceptable, and not to let it just sort of become the precedent.
I mean, that's the way these dubiously constitutional interpretations of new technology settle into the law of the land,
because people just say, well, okay.
They go with the people's first reactions to the new technology, and then that sort of sediments into law.
That's the way things work, by precedent.
Julian, perhaps there's something that, as a reporter, you might want to look a little further into,
but I think what's been going on hasn't gone unnoticed in that I've seen statements from Senator Patrick Leahy of Vermont.
He's the chairman of the Senate Committee on Technology and the Law,
and he has said things to the effect of that the government has gone too far
with a lot of these prosecutions and some of the raids that are taking place.
And I know that he's introduced new legislation concerning the Computer Fraud and Abuse Act,
and to what he's done exactly about the zealousness or the overzealousness of some of the government agents,
I'm not sure, but it might be something to look into.
Yeah, I've heard about that.
I mean, I think that's probably a step in the direction of what we're talking about.
Let's take another call.
Good morning. Turn down your radio.
Okay, hold on.
Okay, I just wanted to share a little experience I had a few years ago.
I've never been a computer hacker, but I have gotten phony sprint codes, or illegal, shall we say,
sprint codes and long-distance telephone codes from friends that are hackers.
And a number of years ago...
You do realize, of course, that the government would classify you as a hacker just for the possession of these items?
Oh, I know that. That I know.
And you do realize, of course, that people who get calling card numbers aren't necessarily hackers?
Yes, I know.
Okay. Go ahead.
Well, anyway, I've gotten... As a matter of fact, yes, I'm happy to say that I still use them.
But about five years ago, the Secret Service showed up at my door
and asked for the person that my phone was listed under, which, of course, was myself.
They basically came in, used a few scare tactics, wanted to look around the house, which I wouldn't let them.
I didn't own a computer at the time, but Agent Rafael Figueroa, who came in to interrogate me at the time,
hadn't realized the fact that I had worked with other police agencies over the years in my line of work,
and I know and have studied interrogation techniques.
So I know when someone has basically nothing.
They had me on a few long-distance calls. That was it.
And he was trying to drill me for information.
The way he interrogated me at the time was somewhere in explaining to me what the process was,
and somewhere in midstream, he worked into the sentence,
by the way, you do have a right to remain silent on anything that you da-da-da-da-da,
which sort of makes your adrenaline pop out just a little bit.
Someone says that, you know?
Right.
I said, wait a minute, am I being arrested or not?
And he said, no, no, no, I just want you to know that you have a right to remain silent.
This is after he asked me about two dozen questions.
Uh-huh.
So what I told him was, yes, I lied.
I told him that I was on a conference line in New York, and someone called from California,
and I said, I can't believe you're paying for this.
And he said, of course I'm not. Here's the code I'm using.
And I said, well, that's basically what happened.
I made a few calls.
So he pretty much accepted that.
He took a few notes, and they left.
About a month later, two more Secret Service agents showed up.
Oh, by the way, this is after getting a call like once every two or three days from Agent Figueroa and his partner.
Every two or three days they would call to say, tell me something.
What does X23781 mean to you?
And I'd say, nothing, which it meant nothing to me anyway.
They'd call me with questions like that, and when I would say nothing, I don't know,
they would just simply hang up in my face.
They were calling me at their own whim to see what I knew.
Like, what does this mean? What does that mean?
They didn't know they'd hang up.
No goodbye, no nothing.
They didn't even say goodbye?
No, no, nothing.
Nothing.
This is incredible.
So this went on for a few, this went on for about three weeks.
And then about, like I said, about a month after that,
two more Secret Service agents showed up with the same Xerox copies that the other two guys had.
And they had no idea that anyone showed up at my house in the first place.
They had no idea whatsoever.
This is how disorganized these morons are.
These two guys showed up asking for me again, and I said, what, again?
And they said, what do you mean, again?
I said, well, two agents were here about a month ago,
and I pulled out Raphael Figueroa's card and showed it to them.
And they apologized, looked at each other, kind of embarrassed, and left.
After that, I realized that this was just a total, a total, I can't say asshole, can I?
Moronic operation that the people in charge or the powers that be or whoever is running the show,
driving around the countries and questioning people,
has no idea how they're distributing information, assigning tasks and cases, etc., etc.
They had no idea what they were doing.
Shortly after that, about a month after that even,
the partner of Raphael Figueroa, whose name escapes me at the moment,
called me up and said that he decided that I know more than I told them
and that I am to come down to World Trade Center up to his office and undergo questioning.
And I just simply said, no way, no way.
And yes, I used the F word.
I basically said, no way, and F you.
If you want to interrogate me again, you do it in my lawyer's office next time.
So he said to me, well, you know, I think you know more than you're telling us.
And if I find out any other way than the SHIT, he's going to hit the fan
and you're going to jail, buddy, that kind of crap.
And I haven't heard from them in the last five years.
Did you ever sign anything?
No, I didn't.
That's something that I understand usually they make you do at some point.
Oh, yes, yes. This was his idea.
To be honest with you, I really think that they forgot to make me do that.
In fact, a very recent case here in the city involving a hacker that was raided by the Secret Service,
they basically said his father had a computer system
and they were going to take that computer system.
Now, that's the family's livelihood there is the father's computer system.
So they said, no, don't take that one.
You know, there's nothing on that system.
So they were able to get a lot more stuff as a result.
They were able to take all the equipment belonging to the kid
and have him sign all kinds of forms.
And one of the forms that he signed, and that the father, I believe, had to sign,
was that this was not done under duress.
Oh, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait.
As a matter of fact, no, I did fill out a short statement and sign it,
basically saying that I met a guy named Pete or John, whatever name.
I fabricated in my brief statement as to where I got this long-distance code,
and I did sign a statement to that effect saying that that was it.
And I, of course, knew what I was doing, unbeknownst to him.
And within my statement, I added that I was very uncomfortable doing this
and did it without the presence of a lawyer and hadn't spoke to my lawyer yet
and was read my rights somewhere in mid-sentence.
And they didn't like that, of course.
He was watching me write, and he said, you know, you really don't have to write that.
I said, but it's true, and that's what occurred.
And I signed it, and that was it.
So I think that's basically why his partner harassed me two months later.
But it might also be part of the reason that they never bothered me again.
Interesting.
Well, I'd be careful if I were you because they play hardball out there,
and I'm open to all kinds of suggestions as to how to deal with that.
Yes.
Thanks very much for calling.
Okay.
279-3407, our call-in line.
279-3400 is our pledge line.
And we're going to be wrapping this up fairly soon.
Craig, Julian, any thoughts?
I just hope that our last caller hasn't tipped his hand too much
by talking about specific agents' names and the ordeal.
Yeah.
Well, hopefully, since it occurred five years ago,
people have been transferred or, you know, natural disasters have occurred or whatever,
and hopefully he's not involved in that kind of thing anymore anyway.
212-279-3407.
Good morning.
So that's how they show it.
I don't know about that.
What was that?
Not good sound quality at all.
Let's see what this next one is.
212-279-3407, again, our pledge line.
And I do want to see some calls come in before we go off tonight.
212-279-3400, pledge your support.
Show that there are people out there who are willing to pledge support at 3 in the morning here in New York City.
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I know that there are people out there that care enough to throw a few dollars our way and keep us going.
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Just flip through the dial.
See what else you can find that deals with topics like the topics we deal with here on WBAI.
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Let me know about it.
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But the only way we can do that is with your support, 212-279-3400.
Good morning.
Hello.
How are you doing?
Yeah. Is this WBAI?
Yes, it is.
Okay. I'd like to speak.
While you're speaking, go ahead.
Am I on there?
Yes, you are.
Okay. I was wondering, do you take credit cards for pledging?
Good point, good point.
Yes, we do take Visa and we take MasterCard.
But I guess I should have mentioned that before.
That lessens the blow for a lot of people.
So, yeah, when you call up 279-3400, keep that in mind.
We do take Visa and MasterCard.
Great. And what's the subscription price for pledging?
Okay. For $45, you can be a regular subscriber to WBAI.
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Great.
Okay?
Great. Thank you. I'll do so.
Okay. Thanks for calling.
Okay.
212-279-3400 is our subscriber contribution line, our pledge line.
Please have those lines light up so we can see a last rally before we go out.
We're here until 3.30.
At least I'm here until 3.30.
I think Craig and then Julian might be nodding off at this time.
Didn't really expect them to stay this long.
I didn't either, but it's so much fun.
It is fun.
Radio is incredible.
You can do so much on the air, and I think we're reaching a lot of people tonight,
and that's what's so important is radio is a very intimate medium.
It gets you in your car while you're drifting off to sleep.
We have no idea what people are doing as they listen to us.
We often speculate as to what people might be doing
and how many people are out there and where they are.
But it's good to know that we can say what's on our minds here,
and we certainly have a lot on our minds.
We've been through a lot, and it makes a difference.
People are out there.
They listen.
They respond, and that's what we're asking for tonight in many different ways,
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calling in and becoming a part of the dialogue, writing in,
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Again, pledge line 212-279-3400, call in line 3407.
Good morning.
Hi, is this BAI?
Yes, it is.
Hi, I have a question.
Go ahead.
Oh.
Turn down your radio.
Okay, let me turn down the radio.
I have a question.
I didn't hear most of the show, so I don't know if you covered this earlier or not,
but why is it that most of the hackers you read about are so young?
Is it that there aren't older hackers or that older hackers just keep a lower profile?
Well, you know, my personal feeling is that you see so many young hackers because think of young people.
Think of teenagers.
They're always out doing things that adults tell them not to do, exploring, being mischievous,
and that's really what hacking is sort of about.
It's asking a lot of questions.
It's moving about in places that people tell you to stay away from.
It's just satisfying natural curiosity, and I think that's at its peak in those years.
It doesn't take a computer genius to know how to log into a system,
and people in their 20s and 30s are certainly just as capable of doing that.
However, I think we've been a bit dulled by the constant reinforcement of what society expects from us.
Right, but it seems that hacking would offer a lot of opportunities for people to, you know,
well, to take a lot of money, to enhance their own finances, et cetera, and, you know, doesn't.
That's where the criminal element seeps in.
Yeah, and so I wonder if there are older hackers who are criminals or who, you know, who just. . .
Well, you see, once you become a criminal, you sort of stop being a hacker.
You know, one sort of stops where the other takes over,
because being a hacker means that you're just out there constantly pounding away looking for an answer,
and if you're a criminal, you've pretty much found the answer,
and now you're just using it to benefit yourself, and you're not being creative anymore.
You're just sort of, you know, living off the knowledge that you already have and using it for your own purposes.
Is it that hacking is defined by, you know, sort of a transgressing of boundaries, or is it defined. . .
I mean, my understanding of hacking is that it's sort of going in somewhere and sort of, I don't know.
Yes, it's wandering about in places people tell you to stay away from.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, that's certainly what it is,
and that, you know, that is not enough to justify calling somebody a criminal, I don't think.
I mean, yeah, maybe they're mischievous.
Oh, I wouldn't think so either.
I just wondered if there are older people who do this kind of thing, and . . .
I'm sure there are many people of all ages that do this kind of thing,
and if the turnout we get at the 2600 meetings is any indication,
it crosses all age lines, all racial lines of all sorts, because people are interested.
As long as you have a shred of curiosity in your body, you have the potential to be a hacker,
and there have been hackers before there have been computers.
Anybody that's questioned the way things are set up and gone out to find their own answers
and learn things on their own, that's what hacking is all about.
Yeah.
Well, it's interesting to me that I haven't heard about hacking communities of people, say, in their 30s and 40s,
and I just don't know if they don't exist or whether they just don't get as much.
There's a lot of solitary hackers, you know.
Emmanuel.
Yeah, Craig, go ahead.
Throw something in.
Probably, they're there.
There's not as many of them because a lot of the . . .
and we're talking about computer hackers here,
separate from what Emmanuel described as the hackers before computers.
The technology is fairly young, and so you have a lot of young people in high school and college
with, other than going to classes and, you know, the regular social life and whatever,
don't have a lot of else to do.
They have more time, whereas your older people, your 30s and your 40s,
I mean, they've got real jobs and they've got other real-life concerns
that perhaps their parents aren't taking care of for them.
So perhaps these younger people are finding more and venturing more to look around
just because they have more time to do it.
That sounds like a logical reason.
Mm-hmm.
All right, thank you.
Okay, thanks for calling.
And that's a very good point because a lot of people wonder,
why is it that these kids are so young?
It's something that, think back to when you were that age.
You were a lot more spirited as far as what you were doing,
and you also had this feeling of immortality, which is kind of good for some things.
Like when you were exploring, I guess, in a sick kind of way,
I guess that's why the Army recruits people at that age because they think they're immortal
and they'll just do all these crazy things that anybody with common sense would never do.
But it does lend itself well to exploring, and that's why some of our best hackers are so young.
Yeah, there's an element of play to it.
Julian, you've interviewed a lot of hackers.
What would you say is the average age?
I would judge also from the turnout at your meetings.
The average around 17, I would say. 17, 18.
With a few people up in their 30s and 40s.
Look at John Draper.
Well, he doesn't come to our meetings. He's on the West Coast.
But yeah, for instance, John Draper, one of the original, well, phone freaks,
who started back in the 60s.
But phone freaks and hackers have been around for as long as there have been computers,
but it's true that a lot of the attrition has to do with people going to college or getting jobs and stuff.
And I would suspect that, as the caller was just suggesting that,
a lot of your priorities get refocused as you grow old and shaped towards survival and that type of thing.
I would imagine that a lot of the quote-unquote hacking or computer misdeeds that go on among older people
do involve forms of embezzlement or just forms of sabotage against companies.
It can be a kind of protest against the workplace to just mess with your computer.
I mean, because a lot of people are put in a position in the workplace,
because the workplace is oppressive anyway,
of not seeing their computer as something liberating and exciting,
but as part and parcel of the oppression that they have to deal with in the workplace.
Actually, there was a very good article in The Voice a couple of weeks ago in the electromag section about that.
William, would you say, though, in your opinion, from what you've discovered,
that the types of embezzlement or computer sabotage in these companies
largely comes from people that work for the company or were maybe recently fired from the company,
you know, insiders, as opposed to your teenager that's just poking around?
Oh, definitely. Yeah. Yeah.
But I think that's also on sort of morally ambiguous ground, too.
I mean, yeah, a criminal's a criminal,
and someone who's just embezzling money from a corporation is,
well, thank God they're not stealing it from Grandma down the street.
But it's hard to get behind that in the way you can get behind, say,
a teenager just out on a sort of electronic joyride
and sort of exercising a healthy disrespect for authority.
But I think the motivations of employees who strike back at their corporations can be examined, too,
and examined for some small shred of political content.
That is true.
I think most of the people who are still teenagers have virtually no element of criminal intent,
you know, of wanting to do something for a particular motivation or some sort of a gain for themselves.
It's strictly curiosity.
However, if, you know, one of the bad results of what's going on these days,
if you continuously tell someone that they're a criminal,
if you continuously tell these kids that they're criminals,
they may very well start acting like criminals because they'll believe that that's what they are
and they'll never be anything more.
It's a frightening thing to think about.
But that is what is happening now.
They're being bombarded with this image from the prosecutors, from the government,
and it could very well have a detrimental effect.
But, Craig, have you seen that in your experience?
That, I mean, my impression is that a lot of, you know, young computer hackers
actually end up just, you know, going into computer security as they get older.
Most of them that I know have, that's their goal, to learn about this stuff
and then end up going into computer security jobs or computer programming, something like that.
Although there's a tendency now to shut them out of those areas.
Yeah, that's what some of these other computer security consultants,
I think people like Gene Spafford,
have suggested that these people should be barred from, you know,
the professions that they would probably be the best in,
probably because they fear the competition.
But as far as trying for money and things, you know, if for no other reason,
computers, they're getting cheaper now, but they didn't always used to be so cheap.
If mommy and daddy can afford to get their kid a computer,
the kid probably doesn't want for too much by means of materialistic gains.
So they don't have any motivation to steal in the first place.
Well, that's never stopped rich people from stealing in the past, but now I see the point.
I don't think most kids playing with computers are into stealing at all
because when you're playing with a computer, it's just, you know,
it's so inspirational to just keep getting answers to the questions you keep asking
to see what happens if you do this.
And it's not really that exciting to just get free money or free products of some sort.
That's, you know, that's passe almost.
It's more interesting to just see what the computer does if you feed it this line.
Well, yeah, that's true, but I think there's also, for very good reasons,
within the hacker community, you know, an attempt to just say,
well, you know, it's just pursuit of knowledge.
You know, I just want, you know, programming, so this is why I got into it.
And, you know, as I said, I think there are good reasons to profess that line,
but I think it's a line.
I think, you know, that the fact that it's illicit, the fact that you're breaking rules,
has a lot to do with the thrill of things.
Which is not to say, you know, which is great because you're breaking rules
and you're not really hurting anybody in my analysis of it.
You're not preying on anybody.
And I think that shows a healthy, you know, just sort of native political instinct.
Although, you know, most hackers you talk to are, you know,
can be all over the political spectrum if they're political at all.
And for the most part, they, you know.
What's unique about the hacker community is that it's not a community at all.
It's a lot of individuals with different feelings on different subjects,
but together, maybe despite what they really want to do,
they do form a community of sorts.
It's just not a unified community.
Yeah, that's my ideal type of community.
Let's go back to the phones.
Good morning.
Yes, I wanted to comment on a couple of things.
Go ahead.
Well, I wanted to ask, first of all, Julian,
did he write the article that was on the front page of The Voice,
I guess it was a month or two ago, about the hackers?
Yeah.
Oh, okay.
Well, I just wanted to say I thought that was a really excellent piece,
and I was glad that it appeared in, you know, a big forum like The Voice.
Thank you.
There was that, and I guess I should say I've done some computer hacking myself,
and in relation to the last caller, I'm in my early 30s,
and I came into computer hacking completely out of a curiosity about the technology.
And, in fact, I've read excerpts of Frack Magazine,
and I don't really know it well, but I've seen it.
And I've also read 2600 numerous times.
I don't have a subscription, but I keep up with it periodically,
and that's actually 2600 is how I sort of got into it in the beginning.
I went to one of the meetings, a couple of the meetings,
that you guys have at the Citicorp building,
and through that I met a couple of people who became instrumental.
They were almost like mentors for me as far as the computer realm goes.
I don't know if Craig or Julian are familiar with these guys,
but maybe some of the people out there listening are familiar with the names FiberOptic.
Well, maybe we shouldn't give names out, because who knows?
Even if they are fake names, I don't know.
Oh, really?
I'd say that that name isn't even a pseudonym anymore.
Oh, no?
Oh, okay.
But I am familiar with it.
But what is your point?
I mean, you learn lots of things about computers, is that it?
Well, I guess part of what I wanted to say is,
since I knew some people who were like members of the Legion of Doom, as it's known,
and like bona fide hackers, I mean, these guys,
I got a really good look at, a glimpse into this world and participated in it.
And as far as I know, just from my own experience, the whole thing was a quest for knowledge.
It wasn't about abuse of power or corrupting systems or planting Trojan horses
or any of that other stuff that seems to make the news.
The whole thing was, even Legion of Doom itself was not this monstrous conspiracy oriented group.
Most of the people never had even met each other face to face.
The whole thing, as far as my experience was concerned, was a quest for knowledge.
And I think that fact has been overshadowed repeatedly in the media coverage of hacking in general,
because, well, I was going to ask Craig this.
Did he feel like his whole legal battle was a legitimate grievance that the government brought against him,
or was it more, I mean, they ended up dropping the case.
Was it more of a harassment type of thing?
I think, in some ways, it was an effort to send a message to the hacker community itself.
They had brought, I don't remember if he's ever got formally presented, but I got a chance to see him,
diagrams showing Frack and how it was distributed to Legion members, to different hackers across the country.
Clearly, the way they wanted to demonstrate the case was to show the evil of hackers,
and then show how Frack was sort of at the center of it all.
In a sense, I was on trial to represent all hackers, in a way.
Right. I see.
Well, see, that's kind of my perception of it.
When you think about the technical literacy of the public at large,
I mean, most people cannot still program their own VCRs,
let alone comprehend what all the implications are of computer technology,
because it's grown so fast and so quickly.
When you look at the zeal with which cases like Operation Sun Devil have been prosecuted,
when you think about all that, people don't realize that this technology has become,
it's like a priesthood, in a way.
I mean, the people who use it, who depend on it, understand almost nothing of how it works.
And the people who actually understand it are a very small, technical, elite minority in this country.
And every day, more and more of the system is predicated on this frail web of electronic signals.
And when they've gone after the hacker community,
I think, as far as the government's concerned, it's a national security issue.
Because everything, even the president, I mean, if he were to decide to launch nuclear weapons,
codes would be transmitted by certain microwave channels
and then eventually sent out over, largely, commercial telephone lines.
And here are groups of what they consider outlaw bands of kids and pranksters
who are corrupting this.
I can see their whole psychology of why they feel like they have to do this.
But people don't realize, in my opinion, don't realize the reverse danger.
I think it's important to identify people that are elected officials,
that understand what it is that's actually happening,
that understand what hackers are really doing and what they are not doing.
And I think that's a major thing we have to do, is educate our local officials as to what's going on here.
As far as I've been able to tell, there are not many people in positions of governing,
from one end to the other, who really understand what's happening with this technology.
There are a couple.
I think it was Senator Leahy in Vermont.
He's very articulate as far as issues of privacy and technology,
and I don't see him as being taken in by all this hackers equal criminals.
There's also, I believe, a California representative, Don Edwards.
That's true.
I've heard of him.
Now, one thing that Don Edwards has been instrumental in, and this is hilarious,
is asking the FBI or the Secret Service if they have been watching computer bulletin boards.
And their answer to this was,
no, we do not have a list of computer bulletin boards that we have monitored.
However, if you supply us with a name of a computer bulletin board,
we'll tell you the information that we have on them.
So if you think about that statement, that's a complete contradiction.
Of course.
I mean, they have to have a list if they have information on them.
They're just not going to give it to you.
Of course.
I'm sure they do have a list because there's a very seriously perceived threat as far as they're concerned.
But it takes somebody like Representative Edwards or Senator Leahy to address this,
and something can actually be done.
If you can actually get through to somebody on the elected representative level, it will make a difference.
That is really, I think, the only way to go, because that and the media.
If you can educate the media and educate the elected officials, you stand a good chance of actually being heard.
Well, that's true.
That's all true.
But to me, what's really at issue, I mean, the reason that I even got into it in the first place
is because many years ago I realized the implications of all of computer technology
and where it was headed.
The basic reason I got into it is because I know that the threat to privacy of the individual in this country is enormous.
And, in fact, I kind of feel like Big Brother has already been created, and he's asleep now.
Well, let's put it this way.
Hasn't been woken.
Let's put it this way.
The desire for Big Brother is here among many very powerful people.
They want to be able to constantly watch what you're doing.
They want to always know what your urine is containing, what you're thinking, what you're doing, what you're reading.
There's all kinds of things, pressure on librarians to supply lists of books that people are taking out.
Yeah, it's there.
The desire is there, and the technology is very close to being here.
Well, what fools us is that Big Brother is not centralized, too, as he was in 1984.
I mean, you have Big Brothers all over the place now.
As the technology itself decentralizes, you have the Big Brothers.
Now he's your boss.
Yes, but the Big Brothers of today, as opposed to Orwell's Big Brothers, are much more technologically advanced.
Much more.
Oh, yeah.
That's one thing that the system in Orwell's book was rather clumsy.
But if databases talk to each other, if computers can communicate bits of data back and forth, you might have a decentralized system.
But you've got all the elements there for a complete surveillance system.
Oh, yeah.
I mean, there's thousands of databases across the United States that are linked to some degree.
There's only really about four or five laws left that prevent databases from being completely interlinked.
And if I, with my own personal computer, with a concentrated effort of a couple of months or a couple of weeks,
if I could really, with my own ingenuity, put together a profile of anybody, given what little I know,
I mean, I was in the hacker world for about a year under the tutelage of these two guys.
If I could do that, I mean, what the government can do, and what they're leading the public into, a sort of narcosis almost.
I mean, unfortunately, one example is, unfortunately, my bank is Citibank, one of the world's evil banks.
But every few months when I get my statement, I get a little brochure about yet another service I can transact with my automatic color card.
And at the top of the brochure is the statement, one more step to a cashless society.
Now, you have banks, the major banks across the country, who are providing this service and are working to change the psychology,
the mass psychology of the public into accepting more and more these types of transactions.
And for those of us who know, I mean, it's well known that there's a system that's waiting to be implemented in the next few years that will dispense with cash altogether.
I mean, and once that happens, everything else is in place to virtually eliminate individual privacy.
Because if you think about it, once a cashless society is instituted, every single thing that you do, every transaction, will be known, can be known, by somebody.
It's like when you go to the supermarket today, you know, you get an itemized receipt saying exactly what it was you bought.
Sure, and the time.
Yeah, and the time. In fact, you know, it's a very good way to find out the time is walk into a store and buy something these days.
But that information, imagine that information being tapped by another source saying, well, who bought what today? What's this person buying?
Sure.
In fact, if you go into Radio Shack, you know, they always ask you for your name and address.
If you want to buy a battery, you have to give them your whole life story.
Well, you don't have to.
I know you don't have to. I give them fake names all the time.
In fact, it's funny because I see the same person every time I see him, I give him a different name.
I don't think he cares.
No, they do that because they get their commission, but I just tell them, look, I'm on the mailing list. I'm not giving them my name.
But people, see, I was going to ask Craig again, is there any plan to resurrect his magazine at all?
Well, I don't have any plans to do it at the current time.
Yeah.
My only, you know, glimmer of hope I'd like to leave people with is the idea that, you know, maybe a year down the road, you know, things will be different.
Well, I'm sure, I mean, you're facing a mountain of legal debt and whatnot that you have to contend with.
The reason I ask is because, to me, from my perspective, hackers might be the only ones who have any kind of edge in a world where these things that I've talked about become a reality.
And that could be the reason why they're number one on the hit list.
Yeah, and that's certainly my feeling about it.
Sounds like Steve Jackson's book to me.
Yeah, and these guys themselves, they don't even understand, I mean, they don't even understand fully why they're so zealous in prosecuting this.
I think the feds like these cases because they're going after people where they can have somewhat of an assurance that they're not going to get shot.
Well, you wouldn't know it by the way they barge in with their guns drawn.
Yeah, yeah, I've heard.
I mean, imagine what that does to, you know, a young teenager to have his home raided by 20 Secret Service agents with their guns drawn.
Imagine what that does to you.
Sure, I was arrested once many years ago when I was in college by five police officers with drawn guns and I've never forgotten it.
And I would, I guess, agree with...
Hello?
Yeah, I don't know what that is, but go ahead.
What Craig had said a little earlier about sending the chill through the community,
which is I'm sure what the government had really hoped for with Robert Morris' case was to send another chill.
I just hope that the hackers who are out there, I know the community is probably much smaller than it was four or five years ago.
I mean, it was a completely different world from what it is now.
But I hope the people who are out there, who are still interested and still able to do what they can,
continue to pursue it and not fall for these, you know, tactics.
Because in my mind, they're the only ones who may stand a chance to liberate some, not to be overly paranoid, but I mean, it's there.
The whole thing is...
The only reason that it's not here now, Big Brother, and that whole system for dispensing with paper money,
the only reason it's not here now is because the public mind is not ready.
That's the only reason.
And every year, there's more inroads made into changing and manipulating the public consciousness about these things.
Quite true. I couldn't have said it better myself.
Thanks so much for calling, sir.
Thank you.
All right.
Bye.
Let's hope more people stay awake, both, you know, at three in the morning and throughout their lives.
We've lost Julian. Maybe he fell asleep.
No, I'm here.
Oh, then we lost Craig.
Uh-oh.
Oh, boy, that's too bad.
I wonder how that happened.
Well, I do want to call back Craig, so that's it for the phone calls that we'll be taking tonight.
Sorry, everybody else that has been trying to get through.
We're going to go into some music.
We'll be back in about a couple of minutes, I guess, and we'll say goodnight to Craig and give out addresses and phone numbers one more time.
Thanks to everybody that called in, and please, if you really feel strongly about these issues, show your support in other ways.
Show your support to WBAI by calling 279-3400.
Call it now.
Call at three in the morning.
Yeah, show the folks in Tally Room that there's actually people out there now that care enough to call in and pledge some support.
And you can get the subscription to 2600 Magazine for a $55 pledge.
We do take Visa.
We take MasterCard.
And we take pledge levels of ‑‑ wait, what did we take?
Pledges of all levels is what I'm trying to say.
Yes, that's what we do.
It's late, folks.
279-3400.
And let's get those lines ringing.
279-3400 is our telephone number, and we'll be back in just a moment.
Yes!
Right about now, we got Africa from the Jungle Brothers on the wheels of steel.
My sister Harmony right beside me, and IKRS1 on the mic.
Sidney Mills on the keyboards and Dwayne on the engineering.
That's BDP on the CD.
And once again, this song is dedicated to the Heavenly Father, because you know you're real!
Where can they go?
Where can they turn when they're running?
That fire burns their very souls.
What can they do?
What can they say?
They can't live without your love.
Another day.
Bad mind people and petty robber.
Straighten up your ways or you will suffer.
Well, go around, come around, and this is the law.
The man-made law.
KRS1 ignore.
I walk the streets as a refuge boy.
Very intelligent and full of joy.
Go to a concert and mash up the jam.
People in the world know just who I am.
I am what I am, because I am not soft.
When the blind lead the blind, that's when you're lost.
But this a DJ dealing with negative.
Nonsense messages are what they must give.
BDP strong, because Jah is the strength.
BDP long, because Jah is the link.
BDP together, because Jah is the link.
We are just a rise while the negatives sink.
Where can they go?
Where can they turn when they're running?
That fire burns their very souls.
What can they do?
What can they say?
They can't live without your love.
Another day.
Where can they go?
What can they do?
We are not a front and we are no fraud.
Every hit record comes straight from the Lord.
We live in jail cell and we live in shelter.
If you help yourself, well Jah will help you.
Look to no man, but love everyone.
Stand on your own and work till you're done.
Follow the commandments that Jah set forth.
Because man made laws, made man law.
Where can they go?
Where can they turn when they hear your name?
That fire burns their very souls.
What can they do?
What can they say?
They can't live without your love.
Another day.
They need you in their lives.
They know your love is right.
You're the inspiration.
That sweet revelation.
All their hope and their salvation.
Where can they go?
Where can they turn when they hear your name?
That fire burns their very souls.
What can they do?
What can they say?
They can't live without your love.
Another day.
They need you in their lives.
They know your love is right.
You're the inspiration.
That sweet revelation.
All their hope and their salvation.
Where can they go?
Where can they turn when they hear your name?
That fire burns their very souls.
What can they do?
What can they say?
They can't live without your love.
Another day.
Where do they go?
What do they do?
Where do they turn?
What can they say?
Where do they go?
What do they do?
Without you.
Where do they go?
Without you.
What do they do?
Without you.
And it's music from Boogie Down Productions'
Ghetto Music, The Blueprint of Hip Hop here
on WBAI in New York.
We want to thank those folks calling in
to show their support.
Join them.
Join them.
You'll feel great about it.
212-279-3400.
And again, this is the last possible time
that we can say this.
The last possible time that you can pledge
$55 and get that year of 2600 Magazine
and become part of this whole unique world
of computer hackers and technology people
and learn about privacy issues
as the last caller was talking about.
We've been talking with Craig Neidorf,
the former publisher of the now defunct
Frack Magazine, and also Julian DeBell
from the Village Voice Magazine.
I want to thank both of you for staying up so late.
I really didn't think you guys would last
the whole show, but you did.
And lots of interesting things to share
with the audience.
I suppose we should give out the addresses
one more time for people that want more information
and want to contribute and help out.
So I'll hand it over to you, Craig.
Great.
Okay, the last time I'm going to plug this.
Okay, if you're interested in sending
any kind of contribution or correspondence
whatsoever, please send it to
Sheldon Zenner, Z-E-N-N-E-R,
Katten, Muchen, and Zavis,
that's K-A-T-T-E-N,
M-U-C-H-I-N,
and Zavis, Z-A-V-I-S,
at 525 West Monroe Street,
Suite 1600, Chicago, Illinois,
60606.
Any checks or money, what have you,
please make that out to Katten, Muchen, and Zavis,
but be sure to make some sort of indication,
like on the memo or with the letter,
that the money should be allocated
to the account of Craig Nidor,
otherwise it'll just go right into the general fund.
And we don't want that.
To the attention of Sheldon Zenner.
Craig, I understand your hesitancy
in pitching, as it is,
but it's a very good cause, folks.
Craig has really been through the mill here
as far as protecting his rights,
but in a way he's protecting everyone's rights
by sacrificing all of the things
that he has sacrificed over the last few months.
It sure would be nice if, you know,
this did not leave a permanent scar,
i.e. bankruptcy or something along those lines.
So please, if you are in the position
where you can help out,
I think we all owe it to each other
to help each other out when things like this happen.
Craig, I do want to thank you, though,
for standing up to all of this
and remaining strong throughout it all.
You've been an inspiration to a lot of people,
and I sure hope it pays off in the end.
And thanks for being with us tonight.
My pleasure.
And Julian DeBell, thanks very much for staying up
and for writing those good articles in The Village Voice.
We'll be seeing more of them, I hope.
Yeah, I'll be keeping this up.
And let me point out that Emmanuel here
has been a central figure in all of this.
I mean, you know, he really got the word out
about Craig's case
and really tipped me off to the whole situation
that was going on there.
And, you know, whatever support there's been
and really defense owes a lot to him.
Okay, thank you very much.
Thank both of you for being here tonight.
And thanks to all the listeners for calling in
and for showing their support.
If you still want to take advantage of the 2600 offer,
it's going to be literally a few seconds more.
212-279-3400.
Remember to show your support for WBAI, though,
throughout this upcoming fall membership drive,
as we do need you to survive,
and we need each other to get by.
Thanks again to everybody, and I'll see you again,
I guess, in a couple of weeks.
I'm not quite sure what the schedule is.
It's confusing even me at this point.
But again, thanks to everybody, and we'll see you soon.
We'll keep you updated as to what's going on.
Good night.
Somewhere over the rainbow
Way up high
There's a land that I heard
Once in a lullaby
This is listener-supported, non-commercial,
community barnyard radio, Pacificus WBAI 99.5 FM, New York.
Me and Martha took a honeymoon
Down south by the Silver River
She was 18 and I was 22
♪ Now it's up to two, one of the young folks to the doorstep
♪ Hey, did you get that
♪ Out the boot, don't go
♪ There ain't nothin' that it can't fix
♪ Same people
♪ Old dogs can't learn new tricks
♪ Same streets
♪ New streets are lined with bricks
♪ So out the boot, don't go
♪♪
♪♪
♪ We've had a time to forget the whole thing
♪ Wow
♪ Thought it over, thought we ought to swing
♪ Wow
♪ Raisin' the sound, man, I really took things
♪ Wow
♪ Changed the wings, cocked the neck
♪ I said we'll dance to these old songs
♪ Now, did you get that
♪ Out the boot, don't go
♪ There ain't nothin' that it can't fix
♪ Same people
♪ Old dogs can't learn new tricks
♪ Same streets
♪ New streets are lined with bricks
♪ So out the boot, don't go
♪♪
♪ Six-pack narrow on a bottom shoe
♪ Wow
♪ Eight-teeter-teeter, twenty-three skid-toe
♪ Wow
♪ We ain't bought for just a heavy fork
♪ Wow
♪ Well, out the boot, go
♪ The rest of you wanna go south
♪ Now, did you get that
♪ Out the boot, don't go
♪ There ain't nothin' that it can't fix
♪ Same people
♪ Old cops can't learn new tricks
♪ Same streets
♪ New streets are lined with bricks
♪ So out the boot, don't go
♪♪
♪ Well, Mr. City Policeman
♪ Please let me walk on by
♪ Please don't check my ID
♪ Cause I'm high
♪ I ain't got nobody
♪ I can't prove who I am
♪ Mr. City Policeman
♪ Be a friend
♪ Yes, I'm all alone
♪ In your big city
♪ I got no place to lay my head
♪ Isn't it a pity, uh-huh
♪ Mr. City Policeman
♪ Please let me walk on by
♪ Please don't check my ID
♪ Cause I'm high
♪♪
♪ Yes, I'm all alone
♪ In your big city
♪ I got no place to lay my head
♪ Isn't it a pity, uh-huh
♪ Mr. City Policeman