Rated on include withdrawal of operations from South Africa and restrictions on rescheduling
loans or extending maturity dates of loans owed by South Africa.
At present, the city invests over $200 million in 24 banks.
These banks all receive a high enough rating to comply with less strict criteria established
in 1985.
But does this legislation go far enough in cutting ties with South Africa?
Despite Dinkins' anti-apartheid stance, the city is going forward with a recent decision
to have First Boston Bank be one of four underwriters of city bonds.
First Boston's holding company, Credit Suisse, has interests in South Africa.
WBAI asked Mayor Dinkins how he can justify the choice of First Boston as one of the city's
bond underwriters when two other cities have rejected association with the bank due to
Credit Suisse's ties to South Africa.
The mayor responds.
We have found that most of the underwriters and about all of the banks, I suppose, have
some relationship with South Africa.
We are, what we're doing is extracting from many of them, and there's been already great
movement by some in the direction of lessening these ties.
It should be pointed out that First Boston itself has no relationship whatever with South
Africa.
And Credit Suisse is sort of like a grandfather.
Even under this legislation, it would not be affected.
But it is our hope, it is our expectation that even that relationship will be diminished
in the very near future.
The mayor did not elaborate on what kind of pressure would be brought on First Boston
to end its ties with South Africa.
And that's some of the news for Thursday, June 14, 1990.
The news was engineered by Anthony Sloan.
It was produced with Jenny Bourne, Antonia French, Thomas Hilbink, Alan Lipke, Rene Michael
and Shai Wei Yu.
I'm Amy Goodman in New York with Tara Seiler in Washington for WBAI Listener Supported
News.
Weather outlook for Friday, hazy, hot and humid.
Time is running out to get your tickets to the WBAI Moonlight River Cruise.
They can be purchased with MasterCard or Visa by calling 212-279-0707.
Or if you prefer, you can drop by the station between 10 a.m. and 7 p.m.
We're at 505 8th Avenue, corner of 35th Street.
If you can't call or stop by, you can get tickets at the dock on Pier 84.
and 12th Avenue on Friday, June 15, after 4.30 p.m.
The WBAI River Cruise, celebrating 30 years of listener-sponsored radio in New York.
Don't miss it.
For more information, call 212-279-0707.
See ya!
And it's just about 11.45.
Good evening and welcome to the 5th corner.
And before I forget, happy Flag Day!
We will achieve freedom,
With our own hand.
So that in the next day, with our white hand,
Our people will rise to fight.
Go forward and be brave,
While life is still young.
This is our last
And decisive battle.
With the Internationale,
We will rise to fight.
This is our last
And decisive battle.
With the Internationale,
We will rise to fight.
We are the workers of the world,
The great army of labor.
We have the right to own the land,
But when will we get it?
We have the soil, the rivers, the meadows,
The open fields and swamps.
For us the sun will also rise,
To shine with the fire of our hands.
This is our last
And decisive battle.
With the Internationale,
We will rise to fight.
This is our last
And decisive battle.
With the Internationale,
We will rise to fight.
This is our last
And decisive battle.
With the Internationale,
We will rise to fight.
This is our last
And decisive battle.
This is our last
And decisive battle.
This is our last
And decisive battle.
Wendy Kaminer
A Fearful Freedom
A Fearful Freedom
Women's Flight from Equality
Patriotism
Everybody okay? You survived that? Oh, great.
Nobody had heart attacks? Children didn't do things that children aren't supposed to do? Now everybody's okay.
Okay, everybody's okay. That's good to know.
All right, folks. Admittedly, admittedly, that was a clean cut. That was a cut that had no four-letter words that I knew of.
Unless they invented some new ones.
The song was called Coolin', and it's off the 2 Live Crew record, As Nasty As They Wanna Be.
It's a double record. In fact, it's the last song on the last side.
And there's other songs here that have titles that I can't even say.
But, you know, we've lived with those rules for a while now.
You know, the FCC does not allow certain types of language to go over the air.
And that's, you know, that's something that we've been aware of for quite some time.
It seems to be tightening up a bit. They seem to be expanding that to include thoughts and ideas.
Well, that's something else.
But now, it's expanded even further so that you can get arrested if you sell this record.
You can get arrested if you perform songs from this record.
I wonder if I can get arrested for having this record.
Just put it over here on the side of the room there so nobody sees it when they walk in.
Well, actually, no, I don't want to do that because I wanted to read something from this.
The people they give thanks to, which I guess they're all on the blacklist now.
That's pretty funny.
Thanks to Tony Rock, Shy D, Anquet, MC Twist and the Def Squad, MC Hammer and the Posse, Tone Lock, M Walk, NWA, Public Enemy, Easy E, Stet, Tough Crew, Jazzy Jeff and Fres Prince, Cool Moe D,
The Rhythm Radicals, Biz Markie, you name it, all there.
To all the virgins, thanks for nothing.
You got to admit, these guys are a bit sexist, but is there any reason to prohibit their record from being distributed?
I don't know.
You have to ask yourself, what is the real problem?
Is the real problem the fact that this record exists?
Or the real problem the fact that there seem to be so many people out there that want to always tell us what to do, what to think, what to buy, what to listen to, how to act, who to associate with?
Where does it stop?
Where does it all end?
Well, to update you on the facts in case you've been in a coma for the last few days,
This is the deal.
Two members of the best-selling rap group 2 Live Crew were arrested early Sunday after they performed songs that a federal judge has ruled obscene.
The arrests of band members came after the arrest of a record store owner in Fort Lauderdale two days ago.
Actually, it's more like a week ago now, for refusing to stop selling the rap group's album as nasty as they want to be.
A spokesman for the Broward County Sheriff's Office, that's in Florida, said the group's lead singer, Luther Campbell, and another singer, Chris Wangwan, were released shortly after the arrests without having to post bond.
The arrests and legal skirmish over the sexually explicit rap record appear to have set the stage for a major legal test of laws defining obscenity.
Bruce Rogow, the leading defense lawyer for the 2 Live Crew, says he intended to appeal the case all the way to the Supreme Court if necessary.
The judge's finding is based on a Florida law that includes language from a Supreme Court ruling.
The ruling defines obscenity as work that has no serious artistic, scientific, or political value.
What we just heard has no artistic, scientific, or political value. In case you're too dumb to realize that on your own, government will be more than happy to help you with that decision.
Also, the definition of obscenity, patently offensive, something that would be found purient by an average member of the community.
I wish they'd stop using that word, you know? You can always tell you're dealing with government issues here when they use the word purient.
Anyway, Sunday's arrest took place at 3.05 a.m., after the four-member rap group had finished a performance at Club Futura in the neighboring city of Hollywood.
Hollywood is in Broward County, where the federal district judge, Jose Gonzalez, last Wednesday found that the lyrics of As Nasty As They Wanna Be were obscene.
That legal finding appears to mean the songs cannot be provided to the public, whether minors or adults.
Last night's show was for adults only. I'm sorry, I should say last Saturday's show. I'm reading Sunday's paper here.
The Broward County Sheriff, Nick Navarro, said in a telephone interview that he had sent detectives to the group's concert on Saturday.
Plainclothes police officers videotaped the performance.
Would have been fun if they had, you know, gotten the stuffing beaten out of them for videotaping something they weren't supposed to videotape.
You know, you ever try recording something at a concert and they don't let you do that?
Oh, well. Mr. Navarro said a detective telephoned early in the morning to tell him the rap group had performed a song with a sexually explicit title from the album.
So I ordered them to arrest all the band members who performed the song, Mr. Navarro said.
There is no doubt that they violated a state statute. The lyrics have been declared obscene by a judge, whether you perform them on an album or at a concert.
The police waited until the band had left the club before making the arrest so as to avoid a public incident.
The police lost track of two of the band's members and, as of Sunday, had failed to arrest them.
But they intended to file warrants for their arrest on Monday.
And on Thursday, last Thursday it is, the record store owner, Charles Freeman, was arrested for refusing to stop selling the rap album, which was released in 1989.
He has said that he intends to sell it again, even if it means going to jail.
Sheriff Navarro reiterated that he intended to arrest Mr. Freeman again if he carries out the pledge to sell the album.
All three men were arrested on the misdemeanor charge of violating state obscenity laws.
The charge carries a maximum one-year jail sentence and a $1,000 fine.
Saturday night's performance at Club Futuro was attended by 300 to 400 people.
On Friday night, the band played to a similar audience at Club New in Miami Beach.
The show in Miami Beach included songs that depicted sex in extremely graphic language.
Mr. Campbell started the show by leading the audience in a chant condemning Governor Bob Martinez and Sheriff Navarro.
Three women from the audience were later allowed to get on the stage.
And during the next song, band members simulated a variety of sexual positions with them.
When one woman began taking off her clothes, Mr. Campbell pushed her to the floor, poured water on her, and walked off the stage.
With that, the audience cheered its approval and streamed out into the pre-dawn twilight.
Admittedly, not exactly the kind of show a lot of people would go to see, I suppose.
But it's precisely for that reason that we have the First Amendment.
To protect those people with whom we don't agree.
And that includes groups that we find reprehensible.
And I'm not saying I find Two Live Crew reprehensible, but I do know that there are people out there that don't like them very much.
But part of the agreement, when you agreed to live in this country, you said you'd honor the rights of those people that you don't agree with.
In fact, those people you don't even respect.
That's why the ACLU defends the American Nazi Party, because they recognize that very basic ingredient here.
And I'm sure the people in power also recognize that.
But they recognize something else. They recognize the amazing power that can be had if you're able to change the laws to your advantage.
Imagine being able to decide what people can listen to.
And I should say, on the front of this record it says, it's not a sticker, it's part of the album cover.
It says, double album, warning, explicit language contained.
There's your warning label, PMRC. That's what you wanted, right? There it is.
Now what? You want to pull the record all together?
I don't know, folks. I don't know.
Are you going to let that happen?
Are you going to let people tell you what you can and cannot listen to?
No longer advise you, but pull it from the stores completely.
Well, coming from today's paper,
since a federal judge in Florida ruled the album to be obscene,
the album has done more than lead to the arrest of three members of the group.
Public officials in other municipalities are now listening to the record's lyrics,
and at least in some instances, are getting riled enough to take action.
Yesterday, in both, yesterday meaning Wednesday,
in both Gwinnett County, Georgia, and San Antonio, Texas,
police told record store owners to remove the album from their shelves
if they want to avoid arrest under state obscenity laws.
In Gwinnett, that's in suburban Atlanta,
police also announced that the rap band, which is scheduled to appear at a teenage club there tonight,
last night, Thursday night, actually I guess at this moment,
will be prosecuted if songs like the ones on As Nasty As They Wanna Be are performed.
Police Chief Wayne Bolden said he will personally be at the Ozone Club
to monitor the situation, but said he doubted there would be problems.
Meanwhile, in Huntsville, Alabama, the city council Monday night
expanded the local obscenity ordinance to include live performances,
and officials concede was in anticipation of two live crews' scheduled appearance
at the Civic Center there on Saturday.
This flurry of activity since the Miami federal ruling, which only applies to South Florida,
has deeply annoyed and frustrated members of the Miami-based band.
As spokeswoman Deborah Bennett said yesterday,
she noted that before teenage audiences, the band always performs the sanitized version of their records,
and said all the threats and warnings from Gwinnett County officials amounted to a waste of time.
If they'd only go after crime with as much gusto as they're going after this music,
this would truly be a great country, she said.
But Bennett conceded that the publicity, dubious as it may be, has had advantages.
Our sales are definitely picking up. People now want the album as a novelty item.
In Gwinnett County and San Antonio, officials are doing their best
to make sure getting that item won't be easy.
Police in Gwinnett said they had identified two record stores where the album was available,
and yesterday, after notifying the managers they could be charged,
announced the albums had been removed.
There was complete cooperation, said Bolden.
That same process began in 84 stores in San Antonio,
and in about five days, police there will begin conducting undercover investigations
and arresting anyone still selling the album.
There's no prior restraint, said the commander of the vice squad in San Antonio.
We're just asking for voluntary compliance.
And, of course, let's look at the penalties here.
The penalty for conviction for selling obscene material in Georgia can be a year in jail and a $5,000 fine.
The band said that the group thinks racism is a factor in their having been targeted
for the first ever declaration of a record as being obscene.
They're starting to consider the racial dimension, said Alan Jacoby, an attorney for two live crew.
Basically, they just say, how come it's only us?
Andrew Dice Clay, a controversial white comic, is far more explicit than they are.
Robin Blumner, executive director of the Miami office of the ACLU, said the racial dimension is evident.
Certainly, there are racial overtones in this witch hunt.
This is a black group being attacked for culturally relevant music.
Governor Bob Martinez, facing re-election this year, initiated the probe of the album in February,
calling for an end to the sale of sexually explicit recordings to minors.
The album has been declared obscene in the three counties that make up South Florida
and in at least eight other counties across the state.
And at a hearing a couple of days ago on the album in federal court,
New York Newsday music critic John Leland appeared as an expert witness,
testifying that the group's music has significant artistic value and is part of a definite musical tradition.
Well, what are they going to say?
Are they going to say that's nonsense?
That there's no merit to this group whatsoever?
We'd like to hear from the listeners, but first, before we go to the phones,
I'd like to give a couple more examples of where we could go with this.
You know, you call something obscene.
Why do you call it obscene?
You call it obscene because of the language?
Okay, so nasty language, all right?
Sexual situations.
Are we going to ban those too?
Well, you know, I was listening to commercial radio on the way in.
I do that sometimes, and I heard lots and lots and lots of songs,
and I had to wonder every time I listened to this song, you know,
there's all kinds of things you could construe from this.
I mean, you ever listen to Lola by the Kinks?
You ever listen to Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds?
You know?
There's all kinds of hidden meanings,
things that those PMRC people would find objectionable, threatening.
So if they succeed in taking something that most people consider extreme,
admittedly Too Live Crew is extreme with their language,
if they're successful there, what comes next?
This is one of my favorite songs from Yoko Ono.
I wonder, what do you think?
That's it.
That's it, darling.
That's it.
Hold me, please?
Yes, please?
Yes, please?
Hold me, please?
Hold me, please?
You've done it again again...
Nwoano...
Come on you've got this!
Come on!
Come on!
Just try it one more time!
One more time.
It's fine!
Well, for someone that couldn't really handle a sexual situation, I suppose I could drive
them right over the edge.
But I've heard that song hundreds of times, Kiss Kiss Kiss by Yoko Ono off the Double
Fantasy record with John Lennon back in 1980, ten years ago, good lord.
And that's something I have to wonder about.
Will they ban a song like that next?
No words in there at all, no nasty words, but the idea, the idea of a sexual situation.
And by the way, if you have that record, listen to it with headphones on, I never did that
before.
It sounds incredible with headphones on, wow.
But will that be next?
Will any kind of song with that kind of subject matter in that way of presenting it?
I mean, let's face the facts, folks.
Sex is a pretty major part of people's lives.
It's a pretty wonderful thing, you know?
It's an amazing thing.
Some might say it's even the highlight of our lives, who knows?
But it's a major part.
Whether we ignore it or not, it's still a major issue.
I mean, if you go through all your life ignoring sex, the energy that you need to give out
to ignore sex is tremendous, believe me.
And if you don't ignore sex, then all kinds of situations manifest themselves.
Are we supposed to ignore all of that and not sing about that in our music?
Not draw pictures about it?
Not take pictures of it?
Not write books?
Not talk on the radio?
Let's get real.
Let's wake up to reality here.
Why must we create this artificial world?
Just because some people are too inhibited to deal with it.
All right, sex is one big thing.
Religion is another.
I saw Negative Land at the knitting factory last week, and they do a song called Christianity
is Stupid, and that's what their t-shirt says, too.
And I bought one of their t-shirts, and folks, you've never known attention until you walk
around your neighborhood wearing a t-shirt that says Christianity is Stupid.
Well, I met all kinds of people, but that's not the point.
The point is, it's just an expression.
Just three words.
Christianity is stupid.
A lot of people can't handle it.
A lot of people can't handle criticism of any sort, and it's equivalent to the flag-burning
issue.
You know, if you burn a flag, that's a statement.
It's a symbolic statement.
If you say Christianity is stupid, that's another symbolic statement.
But if you offend somebody, what do you do?
Do you not make a statement?
Do you just crawl into a shell and pretend that you didn't have these evil thoughts ever?
Ask yourself this.
This particular band that I have here on the other turntable, King Missile, what do you
think the senator's wives would think of this song?
Would this one be next?
And after we play this, I guess we'll take some phone calls at 212-279-3400.
Give a listen.
Jesus was way cool.
Everybody liked Jesus.
Anybody wanted to hang out with him.
Anything he wanted to do, he did.
He turned water into wine.
And if he wanted to, he could have turned weed into marijuana, or sugar into cocaine,
or vitamin pills into amphetamines.
He walked on the water and swam on the land.
He would tell these stories, and people would listen.
He was really cool.
If you were blind or lame, you just went to Jesus, and he would put his hands on you,
and you would be healed.
That's so cool.
He could have played guitar better than Hendricks.
He could have been a great singer.
Jesus was way cool.
No wonder there are so many Christians.
Blasphemy!
That's what that is.
Blasphemy!
You want your kid growing up with that kind of ridiculous notion of what Christianity
is all about?
Pull that record from the stores.
Not that you'll find it in very many stores.
I had to hunt around quite a bit for it.
King Missile on shimmy disc records.
Jesus was way cool.
What do you think, folks?
What do you think?
You think anything that makes fun of religion will be next?
First we have nasty language.
Then we have sexual situations.
Then we have mocking religion.
And soon we'll have mocking the government.
You'll have a Romania kind of situation where you have a demonstration one day, the government
calls in the goons, then the next day all the demonstrators get beaten up.
It's the same thing.
The same thing can happen to me.
If I go down to Washington, D.C., I don't even have to go down to Washington, D.C.
I can just go out in the street and burn a flag.
Something that I probably could have done two years ago without anybody really caring
one way or the other.
Hey, lunatics burning a flag, big deal.
But now all these people have been given the signal that it's okay to beat up anybody that's
burning a flag.
If you've heard of those legislators that have said, well, if you're going to allow
flag burning, then I insist that we only impose a $25 fine on anybody that beats up somebody
that's burning a flag.
Well, what's that saying?
That's saying go out there and beat up those people that are expressing themselves in what
you may consider an offensive way, but expressing themselves nonetheless.
And how is that different than what happened in Romania yesterday?
Not very different, folks.
Not very different at all.
Well, it's about 20 minutes to 1 o'clock in the morning.
Our phone number is 212-279-3400.
We have one, count them, one open line.
The rest are all taken.
So if you call up and get a busy signal, hit redial and try again.
Good morning.
Hello, Emanuel.
What's on your mind?
Well, I've heard your show a few times and I like it.
I think you deal with some interesting issues.
I do think I've picked up on a pattern that I feel sometimes limits the persuasiveness
of your arguments, which is I think you tend to set up a straw man for the purpose of knocking
it down a lot.
I think you take the argument of the people who are against the too-live-true argument
and you take it way beyond proportion to make it look as absurd as possible, which is okay,
but it seems to be your standard debating technique and I think it sort of wears thin
from issue to issue.
Well, now don't you think it's a ridiculous thing to ban a record, to arrest somebody
for selling something like that?
It's a more complicated issue than you make it out to be.
I don't have much taste for censorship myself and I'm not very interested in arresting too-live-true
or people who sell the record, but at the same time, I think that there's another way
of looking at this issue, which is the question of if you understand that whereas freedom
of speech in the abstract is infinite, freedom of speech in the real world is always something
a little bit fragile.
Then the question becomes where do you take your stance and what are the best test cases
for taking your stance?
And the thing that I lament is that in recent times, it seems that it's been kind of a situation
of hold your nose and support so-and-so, you know, it's kind of like hold your nose and
support Robert Mapplethorpe or hold your nose and support too-live-true.
I think that it's notable that there have been very few leaders of the black community
who have come forward in support of too-live-true and I think the reason for that is because
a lot of black community leaders feel that to make a test case out of culture, which
in some ways is almost a dream come true for right-wing loony bins who want to stereotype
black people in a negative way, for them too-live-true couldn't be better because it's the perfect
issue for racist whites to hold up and say, see, this is what black culture is and this
is why we think separate but equal is the only way you can deal with these people.
I mean, that's one of the things that disturbs me about too-live-true and again, I'm not
interested in censoring it, but it seems to me that there is a certain kind of cultural
separatism that is self-defeating for the black community and I think there are a lot
of middle-class blacks of the duly-employed church-going variety who are as outraged
over too-live-true as many whites might be.
Of course, and one of the biggest mistakes that everybody seems to make is treating black
people as one monolithic group of people.
It's not true at all.
There's conservatives, liberals, all kinds of things, you'd be amazed.
But I don't think it's a black issue so much as an artistic issue.
I mean, yeah, they're going to go for the most extreme.
They're not going to go for someone that's selling millions of records.
They're going to go for someone that can't fight back, you know, very strongly anyway,
so what are they going to go for?
Something on the fringe and of course, people are scared to step up and say, I support this
group because it's the same thing with supporting flag burners.
You'll be accused of being in with them when all you're trying to do is just protect the
free speech issue for everybody.
Well, I understand what you're saying, but I see a difference.
I, for example, I'm very much inclined to stick up for flag burners.
I'm less inclined to devote my energies to sticking up for two live crew.
And the difference is that burning a flag covers an extremely broad variety of situations.
For example, for me, I have a particular way of relating to that idea, which is that personally,
I don't think it's very hip to burn flags these days.
I think it just tends to be self-defeating.
And in the long history of any nation state, there are bound to be periods of time when
the government tries to force people to do really morally unconscionable things.
For example, if you were a German in Nazi Germany, I would think that burning a swastika
would be one of the most profound symbolic acts one could be performing.
Now, I don't think we've reached that point in America.
I don't look at America as Nazi Germany, but if we are fortunate to have a history that
consists of many hundreds or perhaps thousands of years, it would be naive to imagine that
we will never be in a situation where the government is trying to compel people to do
things that are so ugly and so inhuman that under those circumstances, it would not be
in fact totally appropriate to burn a flag.
And at such time, those who have the courage to burn flags should not be hampered by law.
On the other hand, I'm looking at the Village Voice printout of some of the live crew lyrics,
and I'm checking out what some people might call the consciousness of that music,
and I'm having a hard time finding a whole lot of art in it.
Well, because you can't find art in it, does that mean that somebody else can't find art in it?
And should you be able to say, this has no artistic value, therefore nobody is allowed to listen to it?
I mean, look, walk down the street, you hear all kinds of language that you can't hear on TV.
Now, are you going to tell me that you can't reproduce that in any form whatsoever because
somebody doesn't like it?
Well, I'm not going to say that.
I am going to say that the very thorny problem that the Supreme Court has tried to wrestle
with for years is the question in part of figure-ground relationships.
This, for example, I'm looking at a poem, and I'd like to read it to you, but I can't
because it would get BAI in trouble with the FCC.
Uh-huh, and we pervert all kinds of people out there, and who knows what would happen,
wake up to in the morning.
My point is that this poem, perhaps as one-third of a page in a novel about life in the ghetto
or about what have you, might be, in terms of figure-ground relationships, it might play
its role in artistic work.
I personally have, and again, I'm not eager to censor Too Live Crew, but I'm saying that
I think there are reasons why there is a Supreme Court that's out there to try and figure out
what...
Yeah, but...
I think every society tries to find ground rules that are reasonable.
How much do you think the Supreme Court knows about the culture of a group like Too Live
Crew?
Do they know anything at all about what it's like to grow up black in America, to grow
up in poverty-stricken areas?
They don't know.
They don't know that kind of thing.
It's foolish to think that they do, and it's obvious by what they say in their rulings
that they have no conception whatsoever of this.
I think you're taking things a little far in that.
I mean, given the fact that the Supreme Court has twice repelled laws against flag burning,
including people that were considered to be conservative Reagan appointees who everybody
thought would never support...
Well, the vote was five to four.
It makes me a little shaky.
Well, I mean, according to the people who are predicting that the Reagan...
I agree with you.
Five to four, it makes me feel shaky, too.
But when you assume that nobody on the Supreme Court or that most people on the Supreme Court
have no inkling of anything other than their own middle-class lives, I think that assumes
that there's a lot that is not easily backed up by evidence.
I mean, it was the Supreme Court that has been responsible for much of the progress,
admittedly slow progress, but much of the progress that has been possible for minorities
in this country.
The Supreme Court overturned many, many years ago laws that prevented Chinese and Japanese
people from owning land.
It overturned the idea of segregation.
I'm not trying to suggest that the Supreme Court is necessarily a champion of liberal
causes.
I am saying that if you want to pick on the bad guys in the society, I think Jesse Helms
is a much more comfortable target for satire than the Supreme Court.
I think the Supreme Court often does surprisingly well.
Well, I think it could do better.
But yes, definitely our elected officials are the big troublemakers as far as this kind
of thing goes.
Jesse Helms is a perfect example.
But let's not stop there.
You know, how much do you think George Bush knows about this kind of other culture in
America?
America is filled with different cultures.
That's the beauty of it.
And to make it into one, you know, neutral kind of a thing where certain values are upheld
everywhere.
The values just aren't the same.
You know, you can go from different boroughs here in Manhattan and find things completely
differently run.
That's the way it should be.
That's the way it was meant to be, I think.
I agree with you.
The only place where I disagree with you is I think that there are two extremes that need
to be avoided in a society, in a nation state as diverse as ours.
One is the totalitarian idea of trying to create one uniform culture that everybody
has to subscribe to.
And the other is to permit a situation to occur where the culture becomes so fragmented
that there is nothing resembling an American identity.
I think it's a thorny problem.
And I think that whereas I'm very much on the side of freedom of speech, I think that
there's a tendency for people on the left to give too little credence to those who are
concerned that we are reaching the point where we just have seems at times to have no standards
of decency left.
Just one last quick point.
Let me just ask you one thing.
Do you think it's ever necessary to arrest somebody as they're leaving the stage of a
performance of people that have voluntarily gone to that performance and that is judged
by many to be an artistic work?
Do you think it's ever something that should be accepted in this country to arrest somebody
for doing that?
That's a tough question.
I don't have an absolute answer.
I am tempted to stick by my guns and say that in theory I could envision such circumstances.
The trouble is that when you're on the fringe, it becomes very confusing.
I mean, I'm looking at some of these lyrics and whereas I personally don't have much,
I don't think I would be interested in arresting anybody from Two Live Crew.
But I can understand that it happens and I can't completely dismiss those people who
look at some of these lyrics and say, wait a second, there's something dreadfully wrong
here.
Well, again, the album is not being forced on people.
The performances aren't being forced on people.
The FCC has already got all the radio stations living in fear as far as playing things that
have nasty language in them.
So I don't see what the new problem is, you know?
But I think that it is legitimate in a society for people to ask questions and to consider
placing limits upon what they feel decency and obscenity are about.
I mean, take the example of child pornography.
And let's take the best case example.
And it sounds dreadful to even use the phrase best case example.
Let's take the case of a child who has been treated well but has nonetheless been asked
to disrobe and who has had photographs made and disseminated for commercial purposes.
I think we intuitively agree that there's still something wrong about that.
Even if the child has no complaint and even if the customers are satisfied, we still intrinsically
feel that there's something dreadfully wrong, even if it's completely voluntary and there's
no coercion.
Yeah, but there's a definite victim there.
Where is the victim here?
Well, where, I mean, where is the victim?
I mean, let me play devil's advocate with you for a moment.
What is it that intuitively makes us feel that there's something ugly when a child is
photographed in that way?
Well, assuming that child molestation is a crime, which it is.
But you're saying molestation.
I'm saying suppose it's voluntary.
Suppose the child feels that no wrong has been done.
Well, again, you know, if there is a law saying that doing this with a child is illegal, then
their law has been broken and the child is the victim, whether he wants to be or not.
In this case, I don't see a victim, you know.
There's a law saying that you can't use certain words in a certain context.
I mean, you're just saying that the law makes it all right.
And I'm saying-
Wait, no, no, no.
There's no law that says you can't use certain words in a certain context.
You can't do that on the radio, but there's no law that says you can't do that in real
life.
Sure.
Not yet anyway.
In terms of disseminating information in the form of written or spoken or recordings and
so forth, you know, I don't disagree with you all that much in spirit, but I just think
that you set up a straw man and many people give too little credence to the idea that
there is so much ugliness in our society.
And people are looking sometimes in a misguided way, but they're looking to try and find some
way of slow down the process of corruption.
The last very brief point I wanted to make about the Supreme Court ruling is that one
of the Supreme Court members, I don't recall which justice, in fact, pointed out that he
felt that many of the politicians were violating the flag by turning this into a partisan issue.
Right, the minority view said that, and I was impressed by that, yes.
Okay, well, thanks very much for your time.
Okay, thanks for calling, and the number is 279-3400.
Good morning.
Good morning.
Let's burn a flag.
Well, go right ahead if that's what you want to do, but-
I just wanted to do it because, from what you said-
I inspired you, huh?
You inspired me.
I think that the present listener, the guy who just listened, is a fool.
Uh-huh.
My name is Joe Rubin.
Well, that's your problem.
Good morning.
Well, someone's got the TV set on.
Good morning.
Yeah, I think that, unfortunately, the previous caller, the one who-
Which one?
Okay.
Well, the people that are offended, ironically enough, are the people that would never buy
the record and never see one of the shows, but the people that see the shows, the people
that buy the record, if they're offended, they should get their money back, but I don't
think many of them are asking for their money back at this point.
This is a whole problem.
You have a group that seeks to impose its values on other people in the community, and
they strike a blow against the essential freedom that we should all enjoy under the First Amendment.
And, of course, they're going to pick the thing that, you know, you might say,
Hey, yeah, I guess they're right.
This really is a horrible thing.
But, folks, the part of living in democracy, you make up your mind about what is good and
what is bad.
That's an opinion issue.
That's exactly the case, and therefore I have to say you're not setting up a straw man.
You're not overemphasizing things.
You're presenting it in a clear, intelligent way, consistent with what our Constitution
stands for and what the Bill of Rights is all about.
And please continue to do so.
Okay, thanks for calling, and let's hope some of our elected officials present it in a clear,
concise way and aren't afraid to stand up to this, because that's what it boils down
to, folks, since McCarthyism, you know?
What was McCarthyism?
It was fear of communism.
Communism was this big, horrible thing.
Well, now obscenity is this big, horrible thing, and all these anti-American people
that we have running around burning flags.
I don't know, folks.
I don't know.
What's the next step?
That's what I'm really curious about.
Good morning.
I think that the real straw dog is words like communism, obscenity, and everything else.
In the 50s, they had in this society, when people said that this was a great country,
there was segregation in most places in this country.
There was almost people were in a state of slavery.
Damn right, and it wouldn't have been changed had people simply kowtowed to this kind of
nonsense.
Well, that's exactly what happened in the 60s.
When things got loose, civil rights legislation came about, and people were able to express
themselves in a more civil way.
The other things happened, because that's part of freedom.
It certainly is.
It's something that we're entrusted with.
We have to speak up when something doesn't quite sound right to us.
And it's easy to say, you know, well, George Bush, he's a president.
He should know.
You know, I trust him.
But folks, you know, you're a citizen of this country.
You're entrusted with it as well.
And if you see something that's wrong, say something about it.
That's what it's all about.
Good morning.
Yep, good morning.
Go ahead.
I'm on the air.
You certainly are.
I'll turn the radio down.
Okay.
I don't quite get the point, if it's one that you're making or some listeners are making,
that this rap group, do they represent, are you saying they represent black culture by
their use?
Oh, no, not at all.
I'm saying they represent a culture.
I don't know what culture they represent or who they represent, but the fact of the matter
is they are artists.
Whether you like it or not, they're putting out their particular rendition of something.
And if you don't like it, you don't have to buy it.
You don't have to go to their performances.
I don't see what the harm is.
Well, I think the caller, a couple of callers back who said it's a more complicated issue
is correct.
And I think he's trying, and I think many people are, despite the ones who always come
across with the usual.
And, you know, I'm as much for the First Amendment as the next guy.
But I think it's more complicated than that.
I think we live in a society extremely violent, with an extremely violent group of people,
both black and white, particularly in the past.
Maybe it's always been that way, but it certainly has come to the fore in a polarization in
the past couple of months or a year.
Do you see this record as adding to that somehow?
Well, yes.
Yeah, I think that society, that there are community interests.
I think there are all kinds of interests.
There is free speech, but free speech doesn't exist, I think what this fellow is saying,
in a vacuum.
It exists in a society, and a society does have concerns.
I don't know if they may even have certain rights.
And there are certain things that we don't allow to happen, and how far one goes in trying
to protect one's family and one's community, and what these artists, as you put it, and
I have been a singer and an artist myself, what their motivation and what their standard
is to become popular, you know, is questionable.
Now, whether they should be arrested or not, I don't know.
But maybe something should be said beyond just saying that they have a right to say
it.
I don't know if the answer is that anybody has a right to say anything.
I don't know if Al Sharpton has a right to say anything, and the media, which is also
culpable to an extent, because it isn't just the people that are going to the concert.
I read about it in the paper.
I would rather not have read about it.
I didn't have to buy the paper, I understand.
Doesn't one walk around with your ears plugged in a Walkman and your eyes closed?
Nevertheless, if I shout out something on the street, somebody else hears it.
It's a little ivory tower or something, or unreal to say a speech and things don't affect
people.
You know, I'm not a believer that someone goes to the movie and then goes out and kills.
But nevertheless, I didn't have to go to the concert.
I saw it there in the paper.
Okay, sir.
I'm sorry.
We're out of time.
But this is a situation we're going to have to continue discussing in the weeks and months
ahead.
Thanks very much for calling.
And folks, sorry to all those of you we didn't get to, but this is an important issue, something
that I think we should continue beyond this radio program.
And if you feel strongly about it, write to your legislators, write to your government,
say something.
Write letters to the paper.
Write letters to us here at BAI.
We like to get letters.
Just express yourself.
Keep your mind open.
And we'll be talking about this again in a few weeks.
If you could expand upon what Robert Gordon is going to say a little bit.
Freedom is what it all matters.
That's what it's all about.
We'll see you in two weeks.
Oh, what good are my eyes?
They can't see you.
And my arms, they can't hold you so tight.
I have two lips that are yearning, but they're no good to me.
Cause I know I can't kiss you tonight.
I look out my window, and what do I see?
I see a bird way up in a tree.
I want to be free, free, free.
I want to be free, like a bird in a tree.
I want to be free.
I look out my window, and what do I see?
I see a bird way up in a tree.
I want to be free, free, free.
I want to be free, like a bird in a tree.
I want to be free, like a bird in a tree.
I want to be free, like a bird in a tree.
I want to be free.
There's a WBAI in New York City.
Weather Outlook for Friday.
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See ya!
Come on, everybody, and have a party.
Everybody, come on and make a move.
Hey, the WBAI Moonlight River Cruise around Manhattan.
Aboard the floating hospital.
You know, this microphone gets changed every time I come in here.
Hi, this is Radio Unnameable at this hour.
And my name is Bob Fass, and I have a couple of tapes,
and maybe there'll be some telephone calls.
We might get a report from what hope we, what promised, not hoped, promised, promised
to be a riotous night in the East Village,
where people who think that some important point is made
by the burning of old glory, or old gory, as we used to call it,
will be barbecuing the flag, and other people will be trying to have a meeting to
get everybody to agree to take the homeless and cover them with a cloak of invisibility,
at least to get them out of the park,
Tumpkin Square Park, so that the police will be able to sit on the back of the bench,
as I've seen them doing lots and lots of times.
I have an interview this morning with a really wonderful gentleman
whose name is Carmen Trotter.
And Carmen is a resident and a worker at the Catholic Worker,
and he'll tell you a little bit about what the Catholic Worker is.
But, um, I also have a tape that...